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Wings Over Scotland

Upside-down times

Posted on June 10, 2020 by

I still don’t like JK Rowling, for reasons I set out earlier this week. I certainly never in a million years imagined I’d ever find myself in a position where I respected her 50 times more than I do Nicola Sturgeon.

And yet, here we are.

If the First Minister, or Shirley-Anne Somerville, or the monumentally imbecilic Kirsty Blackman, have the courage or the humanity to properly address that letter, I’ll buy everyone a new hat.

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771 to “Upside-down times”

  1. Republicofscotland says:

    “Barak Obama’s campaign team are rumoured to have been involved in Better Together”


    Actually Obama the POTUS who holds the record for being the longest at war of any POTUS, his entire two-terms were devote to it. Anyway Obama, of whom I’m not a fan of, had a note pushed into his hand by David Cameron in 2014, the note a unscheduled event asked Obama to make a plea to the people of Scotland not to leave the union.

    Several weeks earlier Obama in another press conference paid homage to the Republic of Ireland, saying what a successful small independent country it had become.

  2. Dogbiscuit says:

    jfngw.You truly are a certifiable moron.You signed up to this virus exaggeration you fool fed to you by MSM. Swallowed propaganda and happy to live a curtailed life. Fucken daftarse.

  3. Ottomanboi says:

    Re Euroscepticism.
    Some observers predict Deutsche Bank is heading for a crash and an upcoming enquiry in the US may expose systemic corruption. DB is the bail out bank for many south European states. The German state would likely support the bank but at considerable cost to the German and EU economies.
    Unless there is a miracle, the EU, as presently constructed, might be on its last legs.
    I’m a Europhile but you do not normally set sail on leaky ships.
    Scotland ie the SNP or whatever may need to do a rethink.

  4. PacMan says:

    A Person says: 12 June, 2020 at 1:54 pm

    You are correct that other countries have handled it better than we have, but does that necessarily mean we will have a second wave if we ease? I’m not an expert in any sense so I don’t know!

    This is the first virus outbreak on a scale that western countries hasn’t seen since the Hong Kong Flu in the sixties. Nobody knows how to deal with it and lets be honest about it, the worldwide response is at times for want of a better word, winging it. Any responsible government should be basing their response on WHO guidelines which is the best we have got.

    Do I know if a second wave here will occur? I don’t and neither does those who think the lock-down should be lifted as soon as possible. The best response is to be cautious and yes, better safe than sorry by over-reacting to minimise the long term damage it could cause to both our society and economy.

    If I was living in Germany for instance, I would have more confidence that there won’t be a more deadly second wave once the lock-down was lifted but anybody with a bit of common sense and aware of the UK governments response which lets be honest about it, affects that of the Scottish governments response, is fairly likely a second wave will occur, albeit localised.

    The bottom line is our society isn’t going to fall into anarchy if pubs are shutdown for a couple of more months until they can be re-opened in a safe manner which minimises the virus from being spread and causing future outbreaks.

  5. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @jfngw –

    ‘In fact NS now has the perfect get out at the end of the current virus process (it will never end as such but reduce to an acceptable level without a vaccine) as the stress toll has been great and she needs to move on.’

    Do I take that to mean you agree? (i.e. that she should step down?) We just disagree on the timing?

  6. Dogbiscuit says:

    Cameron. A lot of SNP people like Mike Russel voted for Brexit.Maybe you should join the fools LARPing as revolutionaries in Seattle .You could live in Wokanda.

  7. Dogbiscuit says:

    Pac-Man go fuck your mother.

  8. CameronB Brodie says:

    The EU is far from perfect, but it is a political project aimed at supporting the rule-of-law and human rights. That’s a claim that Westminster can’t make.

  9. Stoker says:

    It’s now official, Gove announces he’s informed EU there will be NO extension.

    Sturgeon, it’s now over to you, what you going to do? Ask for an S30 *again*? OOooo! That’ll get them!

  10. Dogbiscuit says:

    PAC man talking shit about mythical ‘second wave’ Can you not hear yourself repeating BBC fear propaganda? What a fucking mug.

  11. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’d suggest Mike Russell is a narrow-minded prat then.

    ‘Post-race’ racisms in the narratives of ‘Brexit’ voters

    Although a growing body of scholarship seeks to understand the motivations behind the ‘Brexit’ vote – including that which centralises explorations of racism, nationalism and post-colonialism – little consideration has been given to the ways in which ‘post-race’ racisms underpin the narratives of Leave voters.

    This article draws on data generated through 13 semi-structured interviews to examine the subtle and subterranean ways in which xeno-racism is articulated in the accounts of some Leave voters in the Greater Manchester city of Salford: a city that saw a higher percentage of the electorate (56.8%) vote to leave the EU than the national average (51.9%).

    Whilst restricting immigration was a key motivator of Leave voters in our research, interviewees vehemently rejected accusations of racism. Instead, couching their views in seemingly non-racial ways, they framed their concerns about immigration as a ‘legitimate’ response to a victimised whiteness.

    Thus, in discussing our data, we argue that far from living in a ‘post-racial’ epoch, racisms continue to thrive through new modes of articulation. These new racisms emerge from the shadows at key times, such as the EU Referendum, and refashion themselves in ways that are considered more palatable than the older (explicit) racisms of past.

    Brexit, class, EU Referendum, new racisms, post-racial

  12. PacMan says:

    mr thms says: 12 June, 2020 at 2:05 pm

    Scotland would need to be independent to formally apply to rejoin the EU, but from the 1st January 2021, the UK government would be free to devolve more powers to Scotland that would not have been permissable under EU treaties, such as VAT.

    It makes political sense for the Tories not to disband the Scottish parliament next year, if they could anyway, for the simple reason it solidifies their support under the boogeyman of stopping another independence referendum.

    However, the Tory government doesn’t give off an impression that they have an direction or any form of competence other than getting through the daily crises they helped to create. Mostly likely they will cut the knees off from the Scottish Parliament to curtail them and it would be naive to think they would devolve any more powers.

  13. Dogbiscuit says:

    Capella. What is Nicola Sturgeons plan for Independence.I might be obnoxious to you and why not? You’re permanently tripping.Groovy.

  14. PacMan says:

    @ Dogbiscuit

    Thank you.

    Most people shoot themselves in the foot from time to time. It happens and I’ve done it myself. You however have completely blasted off your foot taking most of your lower leg in the process with your replies, not to mention creating a large crater where you completely sink into the ground.

    You are comedy gold my friend, comedy gold.

  15. Dan says:

    Re-posting ROS’s link from previous comments page to Jim Fairlie’s article in the National.

  16. jfngw says:

    @ian brotherhood

    I agree that if collusion is found then there is no alternative for NS, but I would be surprised if she was stupid enough to have anything on record that attributed her directly with this. I’m not suggesting she is connected, it is merely an observation (legals seem quite touchy about what independence supporters currently say).

    The other reason is if there is no definite progress towards independence, I’m not in the long term voting for the best vassal government of Scotland.

    I suspect if NS sees the writing on the wall there will be an escape plan, there are probably more high profile jobs outside Scotland available to her.

  17. North chiel says:

    Mike Russell on BBC 24 news just launched a scathing attack on Gove following his no Brexit extension announcement . This really means that the FM and Holyrood government MUST “bite the bullet “over Brexit . If we are out of the EU on Dec 31st ( with or without a “ UK deal”) then in the absence of a referendum on Independence it should be made clear to the Tory Westminster government that the 2021 Holyrood election will be a defacto vote for Independence ( ie a majority of VOTES for SNP & Greens) , with both parties standing on this single issue mandate. No longer any more “ ifs or buts” . Over to you FM . It’s time to CONFRONT Westminster.

  18. callmedave says:

    Brexit no deal confirmed by Gove.

    EU says OK but we’ll be back for the fish mind! 🙂

    Means no trade deal with EU yet.

    Mike Russell there not a happy man on big Auntie BBC news.
    It’s a lost cause Mike.

    Today’s coroan virus BBC numbers in the colonies are in as always on their BBC web sites but ‘strangely’ not showing on their ‘England’ or ‘UK’ corona virus web sites.

    No England only figures in the MSM papers.

    N. Ireland………today….01……..Total…..539…BBC

  19. Al-Stuart says:

    Rev Stu.,

    Just out of curiosity, when you refresh a BTL page and remove say 500 comments, do they get archived or just disappear into the ether (like I wish Dogbiscuit would do).

    If I was into conspiracy theories, it might be that some of the comments are close to what may be on the cards and you are removing them to keep the cat in the bag until a certain “book” is published: The Witches of Eck-Wick.

    For example Alex Salmond returning to front line politics once Coronavirus has a vaccine and Scottish Politics too can have a vaccine against the viral SNP Wokeist infection.

    It would be good if you could maybe hint and give us some hope.

    Maybe throw us a bone? Though not to Dogbiscuit as he only eats mushrooms under the bridge in Norway with the other Trolls.

  20. Joe says:

    @ottomanboi & dogbiscuit

    Ive been through the EU discussion here also. Its yet another subject the bulk of indy supporters have rose tinted view of and will take hard reality checks to lift. Im not so bothered as the EU wont exist in its current form by then anyway. If at all. Its sad as i like the idea.

  21. Dan says:


    Scroll down and under last post on the new page is link to previous comments page.

    Alert reader badges are available…

  22. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @jfngw –

    So, we agree!

    No-one could seriously doubt that NS still has a long career ahead of her, or predict how far she may yet rise.

    Likewise, only someone with very deep pockets would, in the current climate, dare speculate on how far she could fall, depending on what we find out in the weeks and months ahead.

    I’m probably with the majority of indy/Yes people insofar as I really don’t care enough to have strong feelings about her career, but I do have very strong feelings about the cause we’ve all given so much to – she’s become a hindrance, intentionally or not, and has to get out of the way as soon as possible. And there’s a wheen ay folk she has to take with her – they know who they are but, more importantly, so do some of the SNP’s big hitters – their time to move has come.

  23. CameronB Brodie says:

    North chiel
    Perhaps Mike Russell has seen the error of his support for Brexit, that is if he actually did?

  24. Colin Alexander says:

    North chiel

    “Since 1 February 2020, the UK is no longer a member of the EU.

    The Withdrawal Agreement notably provides for a transition period until the end of 2020, during which Union law continues to apply to and in the UK. During this limited period of time after the UK’s withdrawal, the EU-UK trade relationship and free movement rights of persons will remain unchanged. The temporary status quo will be used by the EU and the UK to negotiate an agreement on their future relationship.

    For more information about the Withdrawal Agreement and its implementation, as well as the Political Declaration, please visit the Commission’s website”.



  25. robert graham says:

    Eh I wonder who will blink first regarding HM English Governments response to a EU extension.

    Well there you have it it’s no in any circumstances will any extension be asked for.

    Your move SNP I suggest it’s the one Independence supporters require or have it your way and expect consequences , do you feel Lucky , we have all the time in the world , another party might be a bit of a bother to start up but it can be done, no one is irreplaceable, no one .

    Running round in circles might suit some folk but I believe a lot of us are just fkn tired

    Have a nice day now .

  26. Iain mhor says:

    The SNP policy at the moment appears to be to have Covid bridge the period til Holyrood elections and trust they are returned with a majority. Which generally, politically is an understandable move.
    As @Big Jock touched on upthread, the alternative would have been fighting a rearguard action for the next year against everyone, including the greater Independence movement.

    The longer Covid can remain front and centre the better to cloak everything else. Which questions why the probable ‘keep the heid doon’ position, is being compromised with the GRA bill/Hate Crimes etc.
    Covid is also perfect for keeping Indy marchers in barracks and the Indy narrative and dialogue set by the SNP on their terms, not the YES movement’s.

    That the SNP will be returned is highly likely (a majority less so) for the alternative currently is to stick Labour or the Tories back in and have the SNP in opposition – to ‘focus their minds’ as @Beaker suggests. Much as that has a degree of merit, I couldn’t stomach it – the Tories in at Holyrood…? Fuuuck.
    Yet it’s increasingly difficult to swallow SNP domestic policy; thus as ever, a vacuum occurs and not just in our bellies with the dry boaking at what we know has to occur -The SNP have to be put back into Holyrood next year.

    I say that for a few reasons; the first is that those on a pedestal are all the easier to aim at and topple, The easier to focus and target – The alternative is fighting on multiple fronts against all the imcumbents at Holyrood simultaneously.
    The second, is that for all the sickened mince and rhetoric about ‘if that is Independence I don’t want it’ (even heard from the Rev Stu recently, despite previously deriding such philosophy) the message I thought, has always been Indy first, change your government after.

    Was it not even floated that a deal should have been struck with the Tories for an S30, that any bitter pill could be swallowed to achieve the ultimate end ?
    Was it not the possible dissolution of the SNP, the rise of true Scottish Parties, the freedom to choose new Scottish government – they were not to be bound by previous government’s and their policies and all that?
    That even right wing Scottiah ‘conservative’ Govt could be elected and we would accept that, for it would be the true democratic choice of an Independent Scotland do so do? Yes it damn well was and I see no reason that philosophy should have changed at all.

    As to whether the SNP are the vehicle to deliver that independence is a seperate question. Bar some deus ex-machina we are not getting it, far less a referendum from anyone in the next year.
    However, returning them is a five year political term – bugger all time politically, but still plenty of time to effect change, to ‘pebble them wi stanes’, to force leadership and direction, for an alternative Independent party to arise, for Scotland’s Independence to be achieved.

    It’s a piss insignificant time for the young, it’s a lifetime for the old, the ageing, the weary and disillusioned. I was decades supporting Independence before I saw a referendum. In that time we suffered horrendous legislations, horrendous devastations and oppressions and very real deaths and depravities as a result under relentless Westminster governments.

    It’s barely more than a single political term since the referendum in 2014, yet suddenly I’m suposed to be far weaker and wearier than I was in my youth? The GRA and hate Crimes Bills and their ilk are the apotheosis, unsurpassed by anything which has gone before and my soul is finally crushed..? Jeezus wept, how coddled are we.

    By the time ‘lockdown is lifted, we will all have managed to sit on our arses through almost a quarter of a political term. Time is relative, political time more so.
    So I’ll very probably see the SNP back in next year, they may or may not get their ‘hated bills’ to fly in on. They may be forced to bin them before then. But they will be stoned without mercy for not being ‘guid bairns’ in their new term as they are being stoned right now.

    Leadership changes will be agitated for (if not achieved even before then) new vehicles will be supported, everyone will be the target if they stand in front of Independence. We don’t need anyone in ‘opposition’ to focus minds – we are the opposition, or so I thought.

    The backing track of the industrial wastelands used to be Punk, Metal, Ska, Anarchy in the UK and Power to the people. multi-ethnic, angry, vital youth. What’s changed? Just us, we grew old and mow lawns, the better to yell ‘get off it!’

  27. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is what Brexit removes Scotland from against our expressed political will, so do Scots feel lucky?

    The precautionary principle: in action for public health

  28. Julia Gibb says:


    “Mike Russel voted for Brexit”
    You will have a link to that then.

  29. robert graham says:

    I just noticed the Bruce’s statue has been sprayed with BLM and a racist king oh I wonder what devious organisation is attempting to cause trouble , I doubt for a minute anyone who supports equality for all would be so stupid , then again the English state are known for their divide and rule tricks , how petty and so transparent .

  30. alistair x says:

    Just back from a quick look at the battle of Bannockburn monument, council just arrived to clean the graffiti that appeared overnight.
    it consisted of “Robert is a racist bring the statue down” in poorly scrawled white spray paint on the outside wall of the rotundra, the large concrete wall around the flagpole.
    notice they could not bring themselves to use the word king, just some knuckle dragging yoons hiding behind someone elses skirt I think.

  31. CameronB Brodie says:

    Julia Gibb
    I thought it a bit of a ridiculous claim, but it gave me an opportunity to highlight the racism underpinning Brexit. Here’s another that highlights the direction of travel Brexit would force Scotland to take.

    The impact of Brexit on far-right groups in the UK: Research Briefing

    Over the past two weeks, British police, NGOs and researchers have been exploring the impact of the Brexit campaign and election result on the rise of racist and xenophobic incidents. The police reported a fivefold increase in reports of hate crime in the five days following the announcement of the Brexit vote.1

    In addition to the shocking and tragic murder of MP Jo Cox, examples of racist and xenophobic incidents have included threatening phone calls to an African Caribbean care group, numerous Islamophobic attacks, as well as Polish families receiving flyers through their letterboxes reading ‘Leave the EU, no more Polish vermin’.2

    Despite the focus on measuring increased xenophobia and racism, there has been little to no research published on whether the Brexit campaign and vote resulted in a measurable increase in support or membership of far-right groups in the UK.

    To do this, ISD utilised the social listening tool Crimson Hexagon to investigate the following research questions:

    1. How did the Brexit campaign and the murder of Jo Cox impact on far right political parties and street movements?

    2. Did the use of derogatory xenophobic terms on Twitter increase throughout the final two months of the campaign?

    Our research suggests that:

    • UK far-right groups gained a significant number of followers from the murder of Jo Cox MP and the Brexit campaign. Britain First’s Twitter followership increased by over 700 in the 5 days following Jo Cox’s murder.

    • Britain’s four most prominent far-right groups all amplified their online reach during the Brexit campaign, with British Unity increasing its visibility on Twitter by almost 12,000% last month.

    • The English Defence League, the British National Party and Britain First were all talked about in a more positive way online following both the murder of Jo Cox and the EU referendum result.

    • The election of Sadiq Khan as Mayor of London and the terror attack in Orlando had far greater impact on the use of anti-immigrant language online than the EU referendum result.

    • While levels of support online are extremely important to understand the current state of far right groups, the extent to which increased online support and visibility for far right groups translates into actual support offline remains unknown at this point.

  32. jfngw says:

    @ian brotherhood

    We agree in the sense that I don’t care who delivers independence, if NS can do it I would be just as happy about it, even if Nigel Farage delivered it I would be happy (might have pushed it too far there).

    I’m only referring to independence here, the AS proceedings will play themselves out in time.

  33. Republicofscotland says:

    “robert graham says:
    12 June, 2020 at 3:24 pm
    I just noticed the Bruce’s statue has been sprayed with BLM and a racist king oh I wonder what devious organisation is attempting to cause trouble , ”

    Robert Graham.

    Probably the same one that defaced the memorial on Shetland that cost the SNP the seat there. Devious b#stards indeed.

  34. Julia Gibb says:


    Has you shift ended?
    Tell me how a MSP voted for Brexit? Where did he vote? When did he vote?
    Or was it just more bullshit!

  35. Polly says:

    “To me Sturgeon is not a loyal friend. She is ruthless and determined. As soon as you do one wrong things you are dumped from a great height.”

    I realised she displayed this coldness, almost callousness, seeing how she behaved with Michelle Thompson. At the time, though I preferred Salmond’s approach to defend people in his party robustly in such situations, I thought Sturgeon did have such high standards that it meant she came down hard on anyone who made any infringements on her core beliefs and the tenets she wished the SNP to be held to and admired her holding her own party members to a standard she wished to see being universal within the new Scotland we wanted to create. It took the transactivists in SNP and their abuse to MSPs and MPs and ordinary voters both within and outside the party and her complete silence whilst still interacting with and supporting these people to make me see her behaviour about Michelle to be other than I thought.

    It comes as no surprise to me that she hasn’t said one word of condemnation about the abuse of JK Rowling since she didn’t support Joan McAlpine or Joanna Cherry or respond to the many women within SNP who had concerns about self ID. Had she been the person I thought her, and given she had such vast good will for such a while, she might indeed have had Scotland as a world leader in finding a way through this complex issue. Instead the great irony is that the woman who came in bringing sex equal cabinets and equal representation and putting an end to the era when women didn’t vote in enough numbers for their party is now the cause of woman like me, who already did, feeling my stomach turn at the thought of it. It’s not just the self ID or Humza’s bad law proposals but the allowing selective abuse and the hypocricy that goes with that which has turned me away from her completely. All the show ‘children in care love’ and treating people better, creating a finer country and leading by example all turns to dust.

    No wonder so many people feel dispirited and uninspired. And as for the trans activists within the party I would guess they in their way feel let down too, after all she must have promised them her full support and though we think of her as supporting them fully she hasn’t actually come out and said very much. I blame myself for my disappointment too. I wanted a leader to be all Salmond was but without some of his bad bits, Sturgeon positioned herself to fit the bill and I wanted it to be true. No gods and precious few heroes indeed.

  36. Republicofscotland says:

    Johnson drops England’s chief nurse, from daily briefings because she won’t back Dominic Cummings.

  37. bipod says:

    Its not just pubs that have been closed huge sections of our entire service based economy that have been shut. It has been reported that in April our economy shrank by more than 20% (the worst economic figures ever recorded) and its probably a good deal more by now, in normal times even a 0.2% reduction would have been considered a disaster, but so many people are completely ambivalent towards this now. They think that they will just be able to walk back into their jobs whenever the furlough ends in October like normal with no changes. I think a lot of people are in for a big surprise. The longer this goes on for the more permanent the damage becomes and it will take longer to recover, probably many years.

    There is no evidence that lockdown actually controlled the virus, it spread through care homes even with the lockdown and quarantine procedures that they have in place. For example Sweden with no lockdown, it has bars and restaurants still open, has a death rate of 472.74 per million. Compare that against the UK, which has a lockdown, with a death rate of 620.84 per million. There are plenty of other examples.

  38. susan says:

    Polly @ 3.50pm My feelings too.

  39. CameronB Brodie says:

    The Tories couldn’t have made a bigger back-to-front of their covid response, if they had tried.

    How Many Principles for Public Health Ethics?

  40. jfngw says:

    One trait I have seen with these trans activists is their insistence that you need educated, what they actually mean is you need silenced and just accept their views.

    We saw it yesterday on reporting Scotland when Rhiannon Spear basically told JKR she should have kept her mouth shut, dressed up as if it was reasonable position of course (‘not helpful’). In effect they are the same as her ex, demanding women bend to their will, some are even women, they are the house Scots of the trans world.

    If we just all attended a Mermaids or Stonewall course the scales would fall for our eyes and we will see men can change sex and real women are just a subgroup (lesser women or lesser men, hard to decide exactly how they see it).

  41. robert graham says:

    Apologies to CBB I actually read the post without the usual link and I thank you for posting it it is very informative , and I will learn from previous mistakes.

  42. Dogbiscuit says:

    Pac-Man I’m not your friend.

  43. Big Jock says:

    Iain -As you say. Most Scots couldn’t stomach the opposition in power. Even if it was to give the SNP a kick up the arse.

    So in all likelihood the SNP will win another majority. I always say ” Be careful what you wish for”. Can you imagine how crushing it would be for unionists to be running Holyrood again!!

    As annoying as the SNP are at the moment, it’s “Hobson’s Choice” for most of us.

    Better for us to have a strong list vote independence party with 15 seats. The Greens don’t put independence first on their list of priorities so they have been useless as power brokers. They only care about getting green agendas in exchange for budgets etc. Whereas an independence king maker could force their agenda in exchange for votes.

    Some people call it a gamble. I think a bigger gamble is closing your eyes and hoping the SNP change. They won’t. We need to force them.

  44. Allium says:

    @Polly 3.50

    Very well said, although it made for saddening reading.

  45. robert graham says:

    Polly agree with all your comments , I wonder if certain people are talking it in what is about to happen , and happen very quickly , this management can be removed it’s not their party it’s ours the memberships . A very sad state of affairs .

  46. Julia Gibb says:


    You still haven’t answered my question!

    You made a statement about Mike Russel now back it up.

  47. CameronB Brodie says:

    robert graham
    I am trying to be honest and helpful. 😉

    A Socially Relevant Philosophy of Science?
    Resources from Standpoint Theory’s Controversiality

    Feminist standpoint theory remains highly controversial: it is widely advocated, used to guide research and justify its results, and yet is also vigorously denounced. This essay argues that three such sites of controversy reveal the value of engaging with standpoint theory as a way of reflecting on and debating some of the most anxiety producing issues in contemporary Western intellectual and political life. Engaging with standpoint theory enables a socially relevant philosophy of science.

  48. Big Jock says:

    Polly – I would add to that list , The EU citizens she has abandoned. What has she done for them. Just empty promises. “We love you, we want you here”. But I ain’t gonna lift a finger to protect you.

    Most of them have already left. They realised that Nicola was just full of warm words. Not just that. Our collective EU identities have been erased at the stroke of a pen. I am still angry and sad about this. That will never leave me.

    It’s an affront to democracy.

  49. Dogbiscuit says:

    Oh Julia Gibb. A link? Sorry I don’t have any links on that one so it must be bullshit eh?

  50. jfngw says:


    Come on, amigo. back up your claims with links.

  51. Julia Gibb says:

    @Big Jock

    Exactly my position

    If an alternative was available I would take it. However the last thing on Earth I would seek is FM Carlaw with his buddy Rennie in power.

    The only way I see change is a strong list party ( NOT the Greens given their GRA position for one thing)
    The other is cutting the funds. Minimum subs and no additional fund raisers, no raffles, zilch until they start to listen to the members.

  52. Dogbiscuit says:

    Big Jock.’Lockdown’ is the real affront to democracy. Sturgeon using it to her own political advantage is a monstrous attack on our rights and freedoms.

  53. Julia Gibb says:


    I’ll take that as an apology to Mike.

  54. robert graham says:

    CBB don’t push it you got an apology ha ha .

  55. Dogbiscuit says:

    Al-Stuart Vaccine eh? You you don’t mind mandatory vaccination? The loss of your physical autonomy?

  56. Dogbiscuit says:

    No Julia.You’ll take it as I don’t have link.

  57. Julia Gibb says:


    Can you name ONE mandatory vaccination in the UK – Just ONE.

  58. CameronB Brodie says:

    robert graham 😉

  59. Julia Gibb says:


    You don’t have a link!
    Which newspaper was it in?
    Which TV channel broadcast it?
    Which magazine printed it?
    Which Blog posted it?
    Who told you?
    Apart fro the very,very basic fact that MSPs did not get to vote for Brexit.

    Perhaps your sergeant told you.

  60. CameronB Brodie says:

    Julia Gibb
    I’ve already managed to establish the biscuit has a rather unfounded perspective in relation to science and ethics. 😉

  61. Dogbiscuit says:

    Julia you can chase your tail on that for as long as you like. Don’t fool yourself into thinking you have won a watch.

  62. Polly says:

    Yes, Big Jock, I entirely agree she let EU citizens down, perhaps even more so than anyone else after her and Blackford promises.

  63. Dogbiscuit says:

    Cameron . I bet you don’t have a clue about the bumf you keep pasting.

  64. David says:


    You are quite correct, TJenny contributes to the debate we are having of ,,,how to move Scotland forward.

    Something you have never done

    You sound like a right stuck up snobby Bitch,,,and a Sturgeon fanatic into the bargain. Man,,,what a combination.

    Now fuck off and waste somebody elses time.

  65. CameronB Brodie says:

    Are you still hostile to public health ethics?


  66. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Sensibledave quoted:
    12 June, 2020 at 1:34 pm

    “Every Director of a Department in Scotland …. White”.
    “Every Principal of a University or College …. White”.
    “Every Head Teacher in Scotland … WHite”.
    “Every Chair of a Public Sector body … White”.
    “Every High Court Judge in Scotland … White”.
    “Every Prison Governor … White”.
    “Every Editor of every News Organisation … White”.

    Is this offered as some kind of proof of ingrained racism?

    I would be more concerned about the no doubt disproportionately large amount of the people on your list who are English.

    How many of them do you think voted YES (45% LoL)?

    I would expect that most of these people are aged 40+, 40 years ago there were very few non-white residents in Scotland in fact most light skined Scots over the age of 40 can probably remember the first time they heard a person with a dark skin speaking with a Scottish accent and for many it was Shereen Nanjiani.

    People complacently thought that racism wasn’t “a thing” in Scotland but it was just that there were so few people to act racist towards and as they were so few, they were seen as individuals who had names, rather than part of an alien invasion force.

    In fact racists were so hard-pressed to find “targets”, they had to settle for abusing Paul Wilson.

    Oops, strayed a bit from the point I was supposed to be making – mathematically there is no reason to suspect racist foul play there, and that fast-tracking and cherry picking people into positions of responsibility on account of their colour or sex, is no more noble than discriminating against them on the same grounds.

  67. David says:


    If you are chatting to your hero Sturgeon tonight, tell her to get off her knees and stop begging that prick Johnson for anything.

    Well at least tell her to stop begging on behalf of Scotland.

    Tell her from me,,,”Not in my name Nicola”.

  68. Gary45% says:

    I think you’ll find “the biscuit” simply does the right wing Trump ideology. Make it up, post it, then cry fake news when asked for the facts.
    No vaccines are mandatory, its personal choice.

  69. twathater says:

    @ Dan 9.44am Thanks again for that Dan , yes it was my intention to cobble up some type of pro forma so that people could throw stones at it and critique it and hopefully we could come up with something acceptable that gets to the crux of the matter and FORCES NS and the rest to realise that we will NOT put up with this gerrymandering of our independence

    I had hoped to use some form of WORD as a template but I think Stuart FROWNS upon it’s usage here on WOS so any suggestions would be appreciated bearing in mind that I am computer ILLITERATE

    Again I am not necessarily attempting to alienate SNP members but we have to enforce the MESSAGE we VOTERS will not be taken for granted (gone are the days of liebour)

  70. Dogbiscuit says:

    Cameron. You mention science a lot like Greta Thunderbox you have no science because mathematical modelling is not science. No one here has an answer to the problem of false mathematical projections. Science by guesswork basically.

  71. Gary45% says:

    You’ve still not named one yet!!

  72. Dogbiscuit says:

    Gary 45 I hope you’re right.

  73. Philip Allan says:

    As a Grandfather with 2 daughters and 2 granddaughters, I’ve cancelled my membership of SNP. Much as I want independence, I cannot support that insane decision to remove Rights from females just to play along with militant maniacs.

    Nicola, I’ve supported SNP for over 50 years. But not any more.

  74. Dogbiscuit says:

    The reason why so many of you hate Trump is because you are led by the nose by media.I know you think you’re too fly for that but the media has hooked you on a subject you prefer to believe. You all sound like Clintonites . Even clever people are fooled by media. There is is also a great deal of snobbery in the media briefing against Trump.If I was American there’s no way I would vote for Joe Biden.Seven women have accused Biden of sex offences.but they’re the only women that no one listens to. Even Sturgeon has no time for sex complaints against Biden. A little fishy no?

  75. Fireproofjim says:

    Who is this ultra-stupid Dogbiscuit creature who has suddenly infested this blog with his fantasies.
    “Mike Russell voted for Brexit”. (He is an MSP you eeejit) “Compulsory vaccinations”.(no vaccine is compulsory) + Assorted abuse.
    None of which he is prepared to support with any evidence.

  76. Col.Blimp IV says:

    David @4.48

    That is the second of your posts that I have read.

    Both of them seem to exude the stench of Unionist Troll.

    It’s not so much the content that gives you away … It’s the way you tell’em.

  77. CameronB Brodie says:

    This might help you see more clearly. 😉

    Hermeneutic Phenomenology and Phenomenology: A Comparison of Historical and Methodological Considerations

    Hermeneutic phenomenology and phenomenology have become increasingly popular as research methodologies, yet confusion still exists about the unique aspects of these two methodologies. This article provides a discussion of the essential similarities and differences between hermeneutic phenomenology and phenomenology from historical and methodological perspectives. Consideration is given to the philosophical bases, assumptions, focus of research and research outcomes that differentiate these approaches.

    hermeneutic phenomenology, phenomenology, Husserl, Heiddeger, Gadamer, ontology, epistemology, methodology

  78. Dogbiscuit says:

    A person would be forgiven for asking why the media hate Trump so much’? SNP politicians usually get the same media treatment as Trump. Left and right is for fools.The human being is more nuanced than you might imagine. The real reason the usual assholes hate me is because I’ve pointed out hypocrisy stupidity and just plain old left wing moral exceptionalism. You really are Saintly aren’t you? You don’t like being told Sturgeon and Johnson are fooling you. I’ve witnessed a lot of self denial here.

  79. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Dogbiscuit says:

    “Science by guesswork basically.”

    Is that not what Old Robot-voice and all the rest of the astro-physicists are revered for?

  80. Dogbiscuit says:

    Cameron you’re a better troll than me I take my hat off to you. Sometimes I get details wrong and that really offends Fireproof dim.

  81. CameronB Brodie says:

    I don’t hate you, I simply recognise a Tory when I see one.

    Reconsidering Relativism and Intentionalism in
    Interpretation: Donald Davidson, Hermeneutics, and Pragmatism

  82. Dogbiscuit says:

    Col Blimp if you’re referring to the late Prof. Hawking .He was clever but wrong about Black Holes How do you get a hole in Space? Black Holes = mathematical woowoo

  83. Gary45% says:

    Still not named one yet , and there lies your problem.
    Show me on this site where someone has stated they “hate you”.
    If you can I will be the first to apologise to you, but you do sound like “bunker baby, the world is against me, so feel sorry for me whilst posting right wing garbage” and when asked for proof you ignore the question.
    Try again son.

  84. liz says:

    I get more stressed by NS daily. She’s now saying the lockdown might continue for months, she needs stopped.

    This is probably because Alex S said he would wait until the Covid crisis is over, he cannot wait for months,
    This ties in with requesting furlough money till October. WM will give her that in return for ditching indy ref.

    We are now at seasonal average deaths.
    So many people still believe her, I despair

  85. Sensibledave says:

    Colnel Blimp

    My post was in repost to the idiot, CBB’s, constant, perverse, accusation that average folk in England are more r***** than average folk in Scotland.

    The words I quoted are from a speech by a BAME MSP at Holyrood. They are not mine.

    In summary, given the quoted list (if true), then I am satisfied that on balance, at the very least, the average english person is as tollerant, open and welcoming as the average Scot. And, given, the numbber of BAME folk that do hold positions in England that are not represented similarly in Scotland, then it would suggest that, if anything, England is doing far better than Scotland.

    I very much doubt that you personally would support CBB in his ridiculous accusations/ … which are inately r*****.

    He is an unreformed, unapologetic, pseudo intellectual bigot…. and a bit of an embarassment to the Independence movement I would have thought.

  86. jfngw says:


    Ah! the Clintonites, are they the ones who brought the butter dish to Balshazar and the tent peg to the house of Rashomon.

  87. Dogbiscuit says:

    I’ve never voted Tory and I never will .Sadly the SNP is no longer an option for me.Ive watched and experienced this country going down the shitter since 1979. I’m sure many of you remember further back than that. I thought Independence would be an escape from London’s political corruption but it seems we have more than enough of our own. Have all you woke old grannies and grandads joined BLM. Wave your social justice credentials with pride .

  88. Dogbiscuit says:

    Gary 45 what the fuck are on about? Don’t call me ‘son’ you cunt

  89. Dan says:


    Where’s Barbara Woodhouse or Victoria Stillwell when you need them…

  90. callmedave says:


    A Chappie can’t Winalot of support if they post lies on here and then not say sorry!


    This UK (England) ‘R’ number thing is getting a bit flexible now, making some wriggle room for Mr Shapps to get off the hook. 🙁

  91. Col.Blimp IV says:


    I think it is because, if nobody can see it but it has to be there in order to make your calculations add up – it MUST be there.

    Because your calculations made sense, right up until the point when they stopped making sense.

    Does that make sense?

    Now “Dark Matter”, that is way beyond mathematical woowoo.

    And what about Bendy Space, Wormholes and String Theory … Jesus, these Big Bangheads are more credulous than the Creationists.

  92. Dogbiscuit says:

    Sensible. Regarding CBB I think the Independence movement just scroll past him.

  93. CameronB Brodie says:

    You are hostile to the principles of constitutional justice and equality in law, so you can do one.

    Don’t you just wish that were the case.

    How to combine hermeneutics and Wide Reflective Equilibrium?
    A comment on M. Ebbesen and B. Pedersen, How to formulate normative ethical principles by use of empirical investigations within biomedicine

  94. Gary45% says:

    A person of very few words SON.

  95. Liz g says:

    Dan @ 5.42
    Personally I’d go straight to a shock collar….with options tae switch tae a cattle prod 🙂
    Unfortunately the contact button is all we have and I’m very close let me tell ya!

  96. Dogbiscuit says:

    Oh strong silent tough guy type.’Is that you John Wayne?’

  97. Still Positive says:

    There is a talk on the EU by Michael Russell on Newsnet TV from Sept 2018.

  98. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @liz (5.30) –

    Hear hear.

    If only there was someone – just one person – in the SNP hierarchy who still believed in the urgency of securing independence and was prepared to say so, they would get huge support right now.

    It’s hard to know who would be best as a stalking-horse. Any suggestions? Has any polling been done on SNP members’ attitudes towards AS post-trial? Anyone know?

    This cannot be allowed to drag on for months let alone next summer. It’s intolerable.

  99. Bob Mack says:

    I’ve bought a card for Dogbiscuit. Specially printed.

    “I hope your haemorhoids clear up soon” They make him grumpy.

    Is he Donald Trump?

  100. Dogbiscuit says:

    Liz. Deplatforming eh? You’re all Woke.

  101. Dogbiscuit says:

    Liz are you advocating violence against me? You really are woke aren’t you?

  102. Oneliner says:


    As recently as the 1950s/60s, assisted passage money was being offered by the UK government. The notion that the indigenous population might have benefitted from expenditure on the local economy was a non-starter. The total amount of money spent ran into £ tens of millions (then)

    And please don’t paraphrase / conflate what I’m saying with imperial opportunism / notional superiority.

    Scotland voted for immigration rights to be maintained – England didn’t. Perhaps you and the majority of your countrymen aren’t ‘grown up’ enough to accept ethnic diversity.

  103. Sensibledave says:


    .. you have demonstrated today, despite your desparate appeals to learned papers, that you are intrinsicly as shallow as a puddle. You’ve got nothing other than “Scotland is still a predominantly white country” as an attempt to explain the glaring anomolies in comparison to the other “predominantly white country” just to the south of you!

    You have shown yourself to be a robot lightweight with the actual brain power of a cow pat.

    … oh, and by the way … any link you might think relevant as a response … isn’t …. and wont be read by me (or anyone else).

    Bye Pseud.

  104. Dogbiscuit says:

    Col Blimp If you’re interested check out The Thunderbolts Project on YouTube. I won’t try posting a link as it never works for me .

  105. jfngw says:


    In cyberspace no one can hear you scream.

  106. David says:

    Col Blimp

    Is that you got me sussed

    You can join capella and fuck off and troll hunt some other poor bastard

    What a fuckin wanker

    Meanwhile,,,,while you Troll hunt,,, Scotland burns.

  107. Gary45% says:

    You’ve still not named one yet?
    In case you’ve forgotten MANDATORY VACCINATION.
    See 4.35 post, you were asked a polite question, still no answer, typical right winger.

  108. Big Jock says:

    The sad thing about cancelling your SNP membership,after 30 or 40 years. Is that Nicola doesn’t care a jot. Not one tear will be shed. Probably think they are well shot of us.

    I left after the GE. When I saw that Nicola was playing games with us. I then thought better and rejoiced. I am the same age as Nicola. I joined with her, and she is not making me leave.

    I am going to stay and be an absolute pest.

  109. Big Jock says:


  110. David says:

    Col Blimp

    Don’t tell me,,,you are another Sturgeon fanatic aren’t you?

    Where, in your eyes, anybody who doesn’t say very nice things about your Nicola, you label them a Troll

    It’s been happening on this site since the year dot, and you are just continuing the wankers tradition of Troll hunting.

  111. Sensibledave says:

    Oneliner 6.11

    … so, you wish to continue with the “English folk are r***** trope?!?

    I didn’t start this, but I will happily defend my country’s record against yours if that is the game we must play.

    Your argment:

    60 YEARS AGO: “assisted passage money was being offered by the UK government.”

    My Argument:

    IN HOLYROOD RECENTLY, AN MSP SAID (and no one has yet taken issue with his words to my knowledge):

    “Every Director of a Department in Scotland …. White”.
    “Every Principal of a University or College …. White”.
    “Every Head Teacher in Scotland … WHite”.
    “Every Chair of a Public Sector body … White”.
    “Every High Court Judge in Scotland … White”.
    “Every Prison Governor … White”.
    “Every Editor of every News Organisation … White”.

    … and your brilliant conclusion is … clearly english folk are more r***** today than Scots!

    With the degree of brain power you, and the likes of the pseud, CBB, are demonstrating, I fear for the cause you profess to support. All a bit embarrassing I have to say.

  112. Col.Blimp IV says:


    You have me sussed … My bedroom is adorned with little pink Unicorn/Centaur/Princess Nicola hybrids.

  113. The General says:

    I am all for a change at the top, because we are going nowhere.

    But will it happen before the Holyrood elections next year?

  114. CameronB Brodie says:

    Oi Dave, unless you are prepared to respect constitutional democracy, I humbly invite you to kindly fuck off.

    A critique of Rawls’s hermeneutics as translation

    This paper seeks to demonstrate that hermeneutics is a powerful conceptual tool for exploring the current trend towards theorizing justice as a conversation. Specifically we explore the work of John Rawls in order to describe the particular variety of hermeneutics at work in both ‘political liberalism’ and ‘justice as fairness’ and to critique this hermeneutics from the perspective of the ontological hermeneutics of Hans-Georg Gadamer.

    Using the critique of Quinean pragmatism found in Joseph Rouse’s epistemology, we draw a parallel between the ‘hermeneutics as translation’ in Quine and Rawls’s public reason. This parallel, we argue, helps us better understand the features and the limitations of political liberalism, especially when Rawls’s hermeneutics is contrasted with the possibility of a theory of justice inspired by Gadamer.

    democracy, dialogue, Gadamer, hermeneutics, justice, pluralism, Quine, Rawls

  115. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @The General –

    Barring an actual putsch, how could a new leader appear before next summer?

    I’m not familiar with the SNP procedures. Anyone know offhand what would have to happen?

  116. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    The resignation or death of the incumbent.

    Or the nomination of another candidate, would require an election to be held at the annual conference.

  117. Sensibledave says:

    Cammy 6.57

    Unless you can explain to me why there are no non white Head Teachers, or High Court Judges, or Principals of Universities or Colleges, etc, in Scotland … I’ll stick with my previous view of you. The one where I say you are pseudo intellectual, half wit, numpty bigot.

    I didn’t start this Cammy … but any remaining credibility you may have had with other wingers has probably gone now. Best you find a dimwit youngster to argue with. You cannot handle me Sir.

  118. Bob Mack says:

    @Jfngw ,

    I heard that myself.

  119. CameronB Brodie says:

    Britain and its’ constituent nations are historically white. British nationalism has simply been unable to rid itself of its’ racist subconscious, which is a product of Britain’s history of colonialism. Subsequently, British nationalism is now totally up-itself, and English Torydum appears to consider Scots as some sort of inanimate possession of English nationalism.

    Do you understand anything about international relations and how social democracies work?

    National Identity and the Construction of Enemies: Constructivism and Populism

  120. Ron Maclean says:

    SNP Leadership Election Rules

    1.1 Nominations for the positions of Leader and Depute Leader will open annually on a date that shall be concurrent with the opening of nominations for other National Office Bearer positions. Nomination forms will be available from that date.

    1.2 A candidate for Leader or Depute Leader must have the nominations of at least a hundred members, who must be drawn from at least twenty Branches.

    1.3 Close of nominations will be 1600hrs on the date that is 77 days following the opening of nominations. …

    1.4 Subject to their agreement, the incumbent Leader and Depute Leader shall automatically be deemed nominated for re-election. …

    1.5 Where only one candidate is nominated for Leader or Depute Leader, that candidate shall be declared elected.

    Note – voting by paid up members.

  121. wull says:

    Well, Col Blimp, how does anyone ‘nominate another candidate’? What is the procedure, and what is required, for that, while the current leader is still alive and not for resigning (or ‘turning’)?

  122. Dogbiscuit says:

    Julia.I didn’t notice your question. No . No one has been forced to take vaccine they don’t have a vaccine available.Fo you understand that?

  123. wull says:

    Thank you, Ron Maclean. No need for Col. Blimp IV to reply to my previous enquiry, since you have done it for him.

  124. Dogbiscuit says:

    Julia.I didn’t notice your question. No . No one has been forced to take vaccine they don’t have a vaccine available. But Matt Hancock mentioned the word compulsory with regard to vaccines a couple of days ago. Anyway are you enjoying your Government mandated ‘lockdown’ ?

  125. Kenny says:

    liz says:
    12 June, 2020 at 5:30 pm
    I get more stressed by NS daily. She’s now saying the lockdown might continue for months, she needs stopped.

    I was in the centre of Glasgow today.

    Lots of alcoholics in Union Street and Argyle Street hugging each other, falling over each other… how the hell do they not get this virus that has got everyone else “hiding at home”? Does Buckie make you immune?

    On the Broomielaw loads of people out jogging, cycling, sauntering on the narrow pathways. All passing each other very close. Will we all drop dead in two weeks’ time… or maybe there is nothing there in the first place.

    Central Station and the trains are so deserted it would be great to get the low-income and the vulnerable services moving, because it is impossible NOT so social distance – so few people out and about. You need to get 10% of the country moving back every week. Not lock us all up at home because 5 people in the whole country with existing conditions died of one particular virus.

    I am convinced that NS will cling onto this for months and months to put off the day of reckoning and to try and desperately earn brownie points. I also think she enjoys stirring up trouble and then appearing as a sort of “woke woman of peace”, urging all sides to come together… when it is she who has stirred things up in the first place.

    Ironically, NS represents Govan, yet has no clue of the problems she has created there from her 100% lockdown and “there is no debate” approach. The vulnerable are in a very bad way there and these people are not helped in any way by promises to furlough the middle class for months and months.

    How can it possibly be that we have 1000 years of democracy and, as you say, “she needs stopped”… but we have no voice? How have we got to the position that SNP MSPs are not answering desperate letters sent by vulnerable Scots?

  126. robertknight says:

    It appears that the members of the parliamentary SNP, both domestic and overseas versions, have gone rogue.

    I will henceforth refer to them as the rSNP.

    May they disappear up their own wokist and devolutionist backsides posthaste.

    I wonder how many other ‘retirements’ will be announced before HR 2021 in order to facilitate more of their own on-message types appearing as candidates?

  127. Dogbiscuit says:

    Gary 45 typical mong.

  128. Dan says:

    Ian Brotherhood at 6:57 pm

    Probably a bit of an ask but…
    Get every SNP voter in Glasgow Southside Constituency that wants to see some real progress on the Indy front put their names to a petition to lever that issue into a prominent position in the next SNP Holyrood election manifesto, or else their votes will go to the other Pro-Indy candidate standing in the constituency.

    C’mon Glasgow Southside, you could be the catalyst that leads us to an Indy Scotland, nae pressure like. 🙂

  129. Bob Mack says:


    Just heard the Scottish Defence League (Orange Order),

    are planning to defend the statues in George sq during the BLM March this weekend. The same crowd as Indy 2014. Just a heads up.

  130. Mike d says:

    Kenny 7.29pm. Maybe Scotland needs SLM , time to get out and about soon.???

  131. Sensibledave says:


    You wrote “Britain and its’ constituent nations are historically white. (!0 points for spotting that dumbo!)

    … but you havent told me why ….

    “Every Director of a Department in Scotland …. White”.
    “Every Principal of a University or College in Scotland …. White”.
    “Every Head Teacher in Scotland … WHite”.
    “Every Chair of a Public Sector body in Scotland … White”.
    “Every High Court Judge in Scotland … White”.
    “Every Prison Governor in Scotland … White”.
    “Every Editor of every News Organisation based in Scotland … White”.

    Methinks you are bereft Cammy. You aint got nowt … other than a desparate desire to change the subject from the one you raised!

    Haha! You are such a numpty (Btw have you noticed all the wingers piling in to support you … not!)

  132. CameronB Brodie says:

    That’s rather revolting abelist and exclusionary discourse, that is. I knew you’re a Tory. 😉

    Disabling discourses and ableist assumptions: Reimagining social justice through education for disabled people through a critical discourse analysis approach

  133. Crumbs the Ginger Nut has left the packet.

  134. The General says:

    I wonder also how widespread are the changing attitudes towards Sturgeon?

    What percentage of the Yes Movement agree that Sturgeon should be replaced and that a List Party should be formed?

    Or is this a Wings phonomenom?

    Because the MSM are keeping all this very quiet indeed, which must mean we are doing something right.

  135. CameronB Brodie says:

    So what are you wanting us to believe? That Brexit is compatible with liberal constitutionalism? Care to explain how Brexit can be considered compatible the principle of universal human rights, let alone the Treat of union?

    ‘Postrace’ racism in the narratives of ‘Brexit’ voters

  136. Mike d says:

    Face masks compulsory in Turkey with a population of over 83million. Covid deaths 4.778 , this shower in Westminster truly have blood on they’re hands.

  137. Sensibledave says:


    You are the one that keeps insisting insists that English folk are r*****.

    So you need to explain why …

    Every Director of a Department in Scotland …. White”.
    “Every Principal of a University or College in Scotland …. White”.
    “Every Head Teacher in Scotland … WHite”.
    “Every Chair of a Public Sector body in Scotland … White”.
    “Every High Court Judge in Scotland … White”.
    “Every Prison Governor in Scotland … White”.
    “Every Editor of every News Organisation based in Scotland … White”.

    .. and that is a demonstration of Scotland’s unique acceptance of diversity and openess in comparison to England.

    But you wont … because you can’t. You will post an irrelevant link, change the subject and transparently avoid answering.

  138. Oneliner says:


    You may be ‘sensible’ in that you know to take an umbrella with you if it looks like rain. You clearly do not have the intellectual capacity to carry off this Jockbashing thing. You need to read a bit more.

    I quoted facts at you – you quoted facts at me. Perhaps you also know the percentage figures of ethnic minorities who applied for the positions you illustrate? You conveniently omitted the Scottish NHS where both my wife and I have personal experience to the contrary.

    The population of Scotland is less than that of London and is more geographically diverse, so any attempt at a straight comparison is immediately invalid.

    I have many English friends – some supported Brexit, some didn’t. The majority of English people voted for it ergo, it happened. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that the majority of the English electorate voted against the extant immigration policy. I do not see how my statement of fact can be taken as a racial slur – perhaps therein lies the problem.

    At no time am I on record as espousing any political cause/party – your powers(?) of supposition are once again in overdrive.

    The late Samuel Goldwyn once said:
    ‘Don’t confuse me with facts, I’ve made my mind up’
    A good epithet for your tombstone. (When the rest of your body follows your brain – take care you’re obviously very excitable).

    Anyway, bye bye. If I want to contact the moribund, I’ll use a medium.

  139. Gary45% says:

    Biscuit@7.32, is that the best you’ve got.
    Its good to see you actually took time to reply to Julia, but then you go all “Bunker Baby” and use the term “mong”.
    Please clarify your meaning of the word.

  140. Big Jock says:

    I got shot down by Peter Bell for suggesting a tactical 2nd vote.

    He keeps talking about dissolving the union, and how bad the SNP leadership is. Then he wants everyone to vote SNP 1 & 2?

    Not sure how you dissolve the union by giving the SNP a free 7th mandate.

    My point being.There are people who talk the talk ,but can’t do the walk. Blind loyalty causes cognitive dissonence.

  141. CameronB Brodie says:

    Dave is far from being sensible, he’s a narrow, culturally chauvinistic, Tory. He calls himself sensible to camouflage for his rigid illiberal-ism.

    The Ontological Basis of Legal Hermeneutics: A
    Proposed Model of Inquiry Based on the Work of
    Gadamer, Habermas and Ricoeur

  142. Dogbiscuit says:

    G45 please fuck off and crawl back into your hole until Nicola Sturgeon gives you permission to crawl out again.

  143. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Col Blimp IV, Ron MacLean, Dan and The General –

    Thanks for the feedback and info.

    If we assume that Wingers represent a broad swathe of SNP/Yes support (and I believe that’s true) then the disquiet over NS remaining as leader must be widespread. The fact that she is agreeing to an Andrex-gentle interview with Kirsty Wark suggests that she’s feeling the strain. (‘I’m not trying to dodge the question’ she said, thereby dodging the question…)

    And aye, it’s notable that the msm seems to be protecting NS while simultaneously managing to boot the SG’s baws at every opportunity- no mean feat! But there’s no reason why we can’t lead the leadership discussion right here.

    Joanna Cherry’s name keeps cropping up but someone said (was it here?) that she recently declared no interest in the position. (Which means that she was asked about it?) FWIW, I’d like to see Angus MacNeil as her deputy – he’s personable, has already had his skeletons aired, and is happy to have his photie taken with Wingers – what’s not to like!?


  144. Graeme says:

    Big Jock says:
    12 June, 2020 at 8:14 pm

    I got shot down by Peter Bell for suggesting a tactical 2nd vote.


    Peter Bell will bad mouth anyone who doesn’t agree with him, he’s a foul mouthed bully he thinks he’s the only human of earth capable of rational thought and therefor incapable of reasoned argument

  145. Sensibledave says:


    OK, I will engage with you, one time, on the basis you are just foolish rather than a r*****.

    You wrote “Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that the majority of the English electorate voted against the extant immigration policy. I do not see how my statement of fact can be taken as a racial slur – perhaps therein lies the problem.

    The question on the voting paper in the EU referendum, was do you want to stay in the EU or Leave.

    This was categorised simply as “do you want to take back control of your laws, your money and your borders … or stay within the EU and accept their laws, their demands for cash, their immigration policy.”

    The majority of folk in the UK (including over a million apparently rampant r***** Scots)(but excluding me because I didnt vote to Leave) voted Leave. They voted the way they did for their own reasons based upon what they felt was important.

    As a result, we have left the EU and the transition will end at the end of this year. After that we will be an independent nation that is free to make its own laws, its own money and its own borders.

    Focusing on the latter point just for a moment, it has been made clear over and over that we have not, and will not, stop immigration to the UK. We have determined that we will decide who we will allow to live in the country (just like the USA, Russia, China, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Panama, Tonga, Samoa, Turkey, Georgia, Ukraine, Papaua New Guinea, Kenya, Ghana, The Ivory Coast, India, Pakistan, Japan, Indonesia, Phillipines… to name but a few).

    Doubtless, we will still welcome many applicants from the EU as well as all around the rest of the world too and continue the progress to an increasingly diverse society (whilst, probably, SCotland will continue to not have have any non white Head Teachers, University and College Principals, Department Heads, High Court Judges, etc, etc … whilst accusing everyone else of r*****.

    You couldn’t make it up!

  146. Col.Blimp IV says:

    I wonder, has anyone ever mentioned cognitive dissonance, paradigm shifts, seminal moments or busted flushes in a “real world” conversation in say the works canteen?

    If so, how many empty paper cups, banana skins and half eaten sandwiches did you have to dodge?

  147. Dogbiscuit says:

    Most of you ‘Lockdown nazis ‘ have got bunker sickness. Too much time hiding from nature. You’ll be happy to hear that two days after the republic of Wokanda was began in Seattle a street thug took over and began taxing shop owners. Parts of Seattle appear to be run by the woke Taliban. They’re lucky they live in a Democracy . Mind you Bill Clinton murdered his own citizens at Waco Texas. Here’s hoping Donald Trump is more humane than that and no Hulia you mont need a link for this .Its on the public record.Did you all know that the ATF agents who did the dirty used a shape charge on a bunker full of women and children?

  148. Dogbiscuit says:

    Democrats ripping black folks off for their votes then ignored.

  149. Dogbiscuit says:

    Peter Bells an idiot.

  150. jfngw says:

    @Big jock

    I think Peter A Bell’s position is, he will castigate me if I’ve read him wrong on this but I can take it, the SNP are the only viable party at this minute that can deliver independence. And those that oppose the current lack of action need to stay in the party to try and get it back on track. Mr Bell will use more flowery language but I’m a bit rubbish at writing so try and keep it simple.

    I think he also sees a danger in dilution of the votes allowing the Britnats to have majority by trying to be too clever in our votes. It is a risk but one I would balance on the voting day, if the SNP lead is marginal then I would adjust my vote accordingly. I would also need to see who the candidates are, I’m not voting for a pig in a poke (or a poke in a pig if you name is Cameron).

  151. Joe says:

    Theres a lot being said here but one thing I want to clear up – if you are an EU citizen you can get pre settled status by having an address. No money or work requirements. Applications until December next year. I know. Ive completed the process. Nobody ‘let down EU citizens’. Its bullshit. Its put out there to get your righteous remainer tits in a twist

  152. Ian Brotherhood says:

    From Ron MacLean’s comment @ 7.22 –

    1.1 Nominations for the positions of Leader and Depute Leader will open annually on a date that shall be concurrent with the opening of nominations for other National Office Bearer positions. Nomination forms will be available from that date.

    Does anyone know when that date is?

  153. Beaker says:

    Some light relief. Youtube have just changed the name of the “Bar Fight” sketch by Hale and Pace to “Social Distancing Bar Fight”. It’s actually quite funny but typical fucking advertisers cashing in on algorithms.

    Not as good as their frog cricket sketch…

  154. Ron Maclean says:

    Joanna Cherry said on a WGD podcast on May15 something along these lines – that she was not on a power crazed trip to replace Nicola Sturgeon and the rumour that she intends to replace Nicola Sturgeon as leader was rubbish.

  155. Dan says:

    Hypothetical / Ethical / Moral question:
    Would persons holding particular positions in a Political Party be obliged or required to be suspended pending an internal investigation if a Branch of that Party called an Extraordinary General Meeting to raise an issue of why their Party sat on multiple allegations of a serious nature instead of reporting them to the relevant authorities at the time?

    I can recall individuals from various Parties being suspended, or removed from their posts, or even expelled from their Party for inappropriate things they’ve said and done, but not sure of procedural process if multiple folk were involved.


    Posted it at the beginning of May. 😉

  156. Rm says:

    Statues getting removed or toppled over, statues of people who were In the slave trade, but most of the men involved were doing it for king or queen and country so all the statues of royalty should be removed as well because they knew exactly what was going on but were quite willing to ignore it to make money for the establishment .

  157. Ron Maclean says:

    Election of National Office Bearers

    30.1 The National Office Bearers, with the exception of the Leader, the Depute Leader, and the Business Convener, are elected at Annual Conference.

  158. Robert Graham says:

    My My full of facts senslessdave aren’t you fkn clever eh ?

    Exactly how many people that are not white should there be as a percentage of the Scottish population in the positions you quote ,are you quoting facts or just what you believe ? what should Scots do to make them more acceptable in your estimation , and if it falls short do we just insert anyone just to satisfy your numbers game .

    I have had a few spats with CBB but get a fkn grip whats this got to do with independence by the way , just asking because in case you haven’t noticed this site and its readers and posters tend to discuss independence and not the shite you are pushing
    i notice you dont include Scots in yer list or do you assume all Scots are white ? .

  159. Ian Brotherhood says:

    If you reckon you know who will replace NS as SNP leader (and, presumably, FM) the bookies are accepting dosh from the bold!

    Just had a swatch there, and some of the numbers are surprising, (or mibbe not?) depending on your viewpoint, and unless I’ve misread the stats (which is entirely possible as I’m shite with the oul’ numbers) the current ‘favourites’ are:

    Humza Yousaf 13/5
    John Swinney 24/5
    Michael Matheson 24/5
    Stewart Hosie 44/5
    Joanna Cherry 56/5
    Derek Mackay 56/5
    Mhairi Black 66/5
    …a few others…
    Alex Salmond 93/5

  160. Oneliner says:


    Thank you for your reasonableness. One thing troubles me. You chastise me for quoting events of 50 /60 years ago. This was precisely the time when the Windrush Generation was arriving in England (NOT Scotland).

    How do you deal with that, given your ridicule of my timeframe? Be careful now or you may appear xenophobic.

    And is Scotland somehow to blame because the prevalent publicity of the day favoured England?

    The temptation of many commentators is to equate Scotland (pop. c5 million) with England (pop. c55 million). I’ll wager that the BAME population of England is greater than the total population of Scotland.

  161. CameronB Brodie says:

    Back on topic, though all this gender stuff also applies to Scotland’s legal subordination by constitutional majoritarianism, a.k.a. authoritarian English nationalism.

    Social Ontology: Some Basic Principles

    The aim of this article is to explore the problem of social ontology, by developing the argument presented in The Construction of Social Reality (1995). After some preliminary distinctions (section 1), the article describes the logical structure of society using three concepts: collective intentionality, the assignment of function, and constitutive rules and procedures (section 2).

    Some further developments of this approach are presented: the analysis of status indicators, and the case of institutions where there is a status function but no physical object on which it is imposed (section 3). Some remarks are also made about the taxonomy of institutional facts (section 4), about the relationship between conceptual analysis and empirical data (section 5), and, finally, about the concept of institutional facts (section 6).

    Key words:
    social ontology, institutional facts, collective intentionality, constitutive rules, assignment of function.

  162. dakk says:

    Phillipa Whitford not quoted?

    Maybe doesn’t fancy it.

  163. Pete says:

    I see the BLM people have sprayed the statue of Robert the Bruce at Bannockburn – ‘the racist king’
    What do all the SNP wokists think about that?

  164. Dan says:

    @Joe at 8:49 pm

    FYI I was an EU Citizen and feel somewhat let down at the loss of all that status offered me.
    Kinda difficult to sell up and move myself and my capital to warmer EU climes at the moment, and even more difficult in the future.
    Obviously, it goes without saying that this situation is also gonna be a big loss for some smokin’ hot Mediterranean Euro lass that will now miss the oppurchancity of putting up with an idiot like me for a partner. 😉

    There’s also the matter of current EU Citizens being put in difficult positions now that Scotland is leaving the EU. Some owning property and living full time here in Scotland can’t hold dual citizenship so they are going to have to make certain choices because England wanted to leave and seemingly just can’t do so on their own without dragging us along with them…

  165. CameronB Brodie says:

    You are keen to cherry-pick opinion and oppose post-modern critical social theory, so what are the ethical parameters of your social critique? If that isn’t a personal question? 🙂

    Theory and Applications of Ontology: Philosophical Perspectives
    Chapter 12
    Ontologies in the Legal Domain

  166. Joe says:


    I was registered in the EU and still do own property there. Shit happens.

    My point is that there are people pretending that EU citizens are being treated unfairly or are being booted out. My wife went through the process. The requirements are minimal

  167. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Joe –

    Thanks for the link to that letter.

    Eye-opening stuff.

  168. crazycat says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood at 9.29

    replace NS as SNP leader (and, presumably, FM)

    And therein lies the rub. It seems to me we need to separate those two functions, since it is just about fair enough to be “FM for all Scotland”, especially during a crisis, but that is not compatible with leading an independence movement/party to its goal.

  169. Ottomanboi says:

    So Robert I, king of Scots was a racist.
    In what parallel, dysfunctional universe would that be?
    The ignorance of the coven of iconoclasts attempting to rewrite history to suit their own miserable ends is staggering.
    Truly there is a virus of unreason infecting the planet.
    Systems that fail to deal with this deserve to fall.

  170. Sinky says:

    This site used to be at forefront of the campaign for independence but now it has been hijacked by zoomers, malcontents and unionists posing as former SNP supporters.

  171. Sinky says:

    On the defacing of Bannockburn memorial to Robert the Bruce it is obvious it was done by alt right unionists as nereby Wallace monument was defaced a couple of weeks ago long before anyone had heard of Black Lives Matter but don’t expect unionist press to mention this fact

  172. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    I wasn’t trying to mindlessly de-platform Joe, I was simply making an observation. The guy is all over the place in his positioning.

    Full text.

    The Sociology of Discrimination: Racial Discrimination in Employment, Housing, Credit, and Consumer Markets

  173. Sinky says:

    Sarah Smith given big BBC TV news platform to attack Scots Government. When did BBC etc last tell the nation that death rates in Scotland, seasonal excess deaths and care home deaths plus recovery and survival rates are much better in Scotland nut that doesn’t suit the UKOK agenda

  174. jfngw says:


    What are you suggesting, the FM should not be leader of the SNP. How does that work, I can only see two people pulling in different directions and the voters seeing a split party, then the vote collapsing. The alternative is ceding FM role to Britnat party.

    Many on here see there is a simple and easy solution that apparently all the politicians cannot see, if only!

  175. Dan says:


    Sounds like you’re sorted in life enough to ride out the ripples then.
    Not so much the young Scots lad and his European partner and their newborn I spoke with a while back who since Brexit haven’t been able to get a dual mortgage for a property to build a life here because the banks wouldn’t lend due to her residential status not being secure for the mortgage term because of “Brexit” reasons.
    Those young families and their kids will be Scotland’s future generations but you appear to be quite happy to fuck them over coz shit happens.

    I attended a meeting for EU Nationals a couple of years back, there were over a hundred folk in the room and pretty much the same number of unique circumstances. A real minefield of uncertainty, hassle and cost for all those folk to deal with and go through.
    Scotland didn’t ask for any of this yet has had it inflicted on us due to the desires of another country with delusions of grander wanting to take back control…

  176. Col.Blimp IV says:


    I don’t know if he is a republican or a communist but he would get my vote.

  177. The General says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    Will leave the organising of the election of the new leader of the Yes Movement in your capable hands

    You need to get the National on board with you

    You need to get the word out

    And not just be a talking shop on a Friday night on Wings

    We need to spread the word Nationally.

    And,,,,,”Now is the time”.

    Two things need to be pushed

    The election of a new SNP leader and,,,the launching of an Indy only List Party

  178. Col.Blimp IV says:


    You beat me to the draw … Those clowns grasp of history is woeful, don’t they know that Bruce’s best pal was called Black Douglass?

  179. Davie Oga says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    12 June, 2020 at 9:29 pm
    If you reckon you know who will replace NS as SNP leader (and, presumably, FM

    From least to most likely

    Matheson. heterosexual, white, male, well educated and competent. No chance.

    Swinney. heterosexual, white, male, semi competent. No chance despite getting brownie points for bringing anal and felching into the classroom.

    Joanna Cherry. Ticks all the boxes on the surface, accomplished, female, gay, good public profile. Fatally flawed though, due to being the wrong type of lesbian, hater, and soon to be criminal. Real lesbians suck lady boaby in the modern, progressive SNP.

    Hosie. White, male, hetero aldulterer. Failure in strategic vision by having an affair with a woman. Tough road back into contention. Can’t just come out as gay after being married to multiple women. Can maybe restore his standing with the hierarchy by leaking a MMF, interracial threesome, sex video. As long as the F is his current wife.

    Yusuf. Tried to abolish trial by jury. Tick. Absolves himself of responsibility for his portfolio. Tick. Allowed his ministry to be used as a tool for the current leader to criminalise her critics and rivals. Nice play. Possibility.

    Mackay. Weak a candidate given his “misunderstanding”, although he has a shot given that he’s still a party member and probably knows where a lot of bodies are buried. Needs to take drastic action. Can probably redeem himself with head office by excusing his borderline pedastry as confusion. Needs to quit being being gay, move back home, and hold a press conference in drag with the wife and kids. Officially change his name to Dee Dee. Blame every wrong thing that he has ever done on society’s failure to accept him as a woman. Can probably seal the deal by headbutting a female journalist for having the temerity to question Dee Dee about Derek’s indescretions.

    Black. Won’t run. Realizes that Dee Dee can take trans rights to the next level. Sets up a fundraising raffle for all 13-17 year old boys in Scotland. A jar of vaseline and 15 minutes alone with Dee Dee in one of the women’s cubicles at The Lagoon Leisure centre. Calls anyone who objects a bigoted cunt. Made a Dame for her efforts.

  180. CameronB Brodie says:

    I hope folk don’t mind me trying to put the GRA proposal in the bin tonight? I’m afraid I’m a bit too rusty to outline this legal position in a brief comment, but I suggest folk at least dip their toes. 😉

    General Jurisprudence, Empirical Legal Theory,
    Epistemic Fruit, and the Ontology of ‘Law’: Scope,
    Scepticism, Demarcation, Artefacts, Hermeneutic
    Concepts, Normativity and Natural Kinds

  181. David says:

    The english not happy the old drunken war time leader Churchill has to be covered up in case he gets vandalised.

    They go on to tell us that he won the War against Hitler and the Facists.

    I thought it was the Americans and Russians who defeated Hitler

    Did Churchill not do something rather nasty to the good people of Dundee?

    Anyway, I don’t think he was sober once during WW2, so much for his sound judgement.

    Gilipoli, Indian massacre, and many more disasters that Churchill was responsible for.

    An old drunken english racist.

  182. Liz g says:

    Pete @ 9.53
    Not being SNP, I obviously can’t speak for them.
    What I can tell you is that most if not all of what I’m seeing across the places I go on the Net that are Yes leaning Simply don’t believe it was BLM,while no impossible that it was….our particular circumstances leave more room than most for doubt…..whit can ah tell ye Pete…we’ve had a front row seat tae the British for quite some time a healthy scepticism has been well nurtured!

  183. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @CamB –

    ‘I wasn’t trying to mindlessly de-platform Joe, I was simply making an observation. The guy is all over the place in his positioning.’

    Aye, okay, but why are you referring that to me? I didn’t cite you – I was responding to Joe.

    Perhaps you could find a link to an academic study, preferably by Foucault, Saussure, or whoever is your post(modernist)er-boy du jour about ‘getting over yourself’.

    And while you’re at it, consider this – we’ve already established that, lately, you contribute going-on for 10% of all btl comments here. Proportionately, you submit more offensive comments than anyone else. I won’t go back to gather specific examples because you know what I’m on about.

    Deriding other commenters as ‘racists’, ‘gammon’, labelling them as ‘Tories’, dismissing any material they provide? ‘Fuck off’, ‘Do one’ etc… It’s become a feature of your contributions in the last few months. Do you believe that such aggression helps you on your educational mission ? Believe me Cameron – it is *not* a good look. Doesn’t suit you. Not one wee toty bit sah!


  184. crazycat says:

    @ jfngw @ 10.33

    How does that work? I’m not sure that it can! That’s the problem.

    There’s (limited) scope for a Westminster leader and a Holyrood one, or for someone who isn’t a party leader, but heads the independence campaign. Examples of party leaders who have not been elected representatives include William Wolfe, and Farage (though he was an MEP) and some of his successors (who were councillors, usually), but the parties concerned have been nowhere near government.

  185. Liz g says:

    Davie Oga @ 10.54
    I don’t think that’s what Ian Brotherhood said at all,and you need to think less Vaseline and more political strategy if ye want anybody serious to take ye serious here my friend!

  186. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    It appears you’ve not grasped what I’ve been trying to do here, so I’m afraid if anyone lacks self-awareness, it’s you.

    Cultural Competency as New Racism:
    An Ontology of Forgetting

  187. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    I thought it was hilarious myself. 😉

  188. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Davie Oga (10.54) –

    That’s some soo-perb punditry there!

    All we need now is the wee graphics showing the patterns of their silks, and recent riding performances.

    The National could run it as a permanent feature in one of the back pages.


  189. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @CamB –

    I lack self-awareness because I haven’t grasped what you’re trying to do?


    Erm, right…well, er, okay, Cam, whatever you say man…

    (‘bewildered’ emoji here)

  190. Liz g says:

    CrazyCat @ 11.06
    Do you think that’s the role Alex Salmond envisioned,when he said he was returning to front line politics?

  191. defo says:

    Time for a kit Kat kid.
    CBT can help. Or drugs

  192. David says:

    Dave Oga 10.54



  193. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 11.11
    Weeeellll..Since ye said…aye it was so bad it was funny..but not in a good way 🙂
    How twisted are we… 🙂 🙂

  194. crazycat says:

    @ Liz g at 11.19

    I wouldn’t presume to speak for him, but I would not have been surprised if he had volunteered his services as a prominent member of a new campaign, without seeking elected office.

  195. Liz g says:

    defo @ 11.20
    I still favour a shock collar or cattle prod…but I’m just old fashioned that way

  196. CameronB Brodie says:

    There come a point when you’ve got to decide if pushing against the resistance is worth the effort. I’m doing my best to break the knowledge hegemony that British nationalism enjoys. That only works if folk don’t mistake proficiency for arrogance. I’m sorry if I’ve hurt anyone’s fereling, but I respect the rule-of-law. Not subjective legal pish invented to break society.

    The Ontology, Epistemology, and Axiology of
    Social and Racial Justice Educators: An Untapped
    Resource to Address the Unequal Educational
    Outcomes for Students of Color and Other Nondominant

  197. Liz g says:

    CrazyCat @ 11.24
    Of either..but I have to admit when I heard him say it…I thought exactly,that’s what we need…someone out side the government that we can rally behind no question..or in the current debate.
    It would really cut straight through the question of who consolidates the Yes campaigners into the unstoppable force both Nicola and Alex have often spoke of

  198. Beaker says:

    @Ian Brotherhood says:
    12 June, 2020 at 9:29 pm
    “If you reckon you know who will replace NS as SNP leader (and, presumably, FM) the bookies are accepting dosh from the bold!”

    Humza Yousaf 13/5 – possible, least he would get a driver
    John Swinney 24/5 – too much Mr Nice Guy
    Michael Matheson 24/5 – zzz
    Stewart Hosie 44/5 – could be entertaining. Can they swear in the Chamber?
    Joanna Cherry 56/5 – defo. Scary and very intelligent
    Derek Mackay 56/5 – I’ve more chance of winning the lottery
    Mhairi Black 66/5 – would she bring her pal in as a special advisor? Nae chance.
    …a few others…
    Alex Salmond 93/5 – political earthquake 10 on richter scale

    @David says:
    12 June, 2020 at 11:03 pm
    “The english not happy the old drunken war time leader Churchill has to be covered up in case he gets vandalised.
    They go on to tell us that he won the War against Hitler and the Facists.”

    I posted about this a few weeks back. Churchill (and much of what you say is true, and I don’t like him) was the only real choice to replace Chamberlain. Both men (and Halifax) were the only strong politicians who were against Hitler. The plan for Hitler was for Britain to sign a treaty so he could concentrate on a single front against Russia. Churchill was needed to lead the country in war.

    Try studying European politics between 1918 and 1945, and you might properly understand why Churchill was chosen. Remember, after the war he got kicked out of office.

  199. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 11.31
    All I can say tae ye Cameron..Is when they go low,you go high.
    Don’t let them push ye into going against yer natural good humour….and they’ve tested ye…I’ve seen that..we all have!
    Post as ye will Cameron,the Rev is more than capable of saying what is permissible here….I try to never get pushed to a personal attack ( not well ) but they’re pushing you man. I’d hate to see it bear fruit…know what I’m sayin?

  200. crazycat says:

    @ Liz g at 11.31 and 11.44

    Agree with both of these posts.

  201. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    Thanks, I appreciate the support and I do appreciate I’m out on a limb, and not to everyone’s taste. My approach has been a bit ropy but I think I’m getting on top of things.

    The Social Ontology of Democracy

  202. robertknight says:

    dinky @ 10:21 pm

    “This site used to be at forefront of the campaign for independence but now it has been hijacked by zoomers, malcontents and unionists posing as former SNP supporters.”

    Another who associates blind allegiance to the rSNP as supporting Indy and anything else as other.


  203. Davie Oga says:


    It’s hard to take things seriously when I seriously don’t believe that the current SNP leadership have neither the intention nor the ability to deliver independence.

  204. Col.Blimp IV says:


    Dinkys assessment looks spot on from where I’m sitting as a potential former SNP supporter.

    Up wei the Zoomers and the Malcontents!

    Doon wei the Yoons an the Wokies!

    All hail the Scottish Workers Republic!

  205. Col.Blimp IV says:


    Yer no supposed tae sign off wi’ a slogan!

    Sorry Your Reverence.

  206. Dogbiscuit says:

    Oneliner there was a certain amount of immigration from West Indies during ww2 most went home post war some stayed. Many did war work or served in the forces. Scotland in the 1940s50s was probably a dump.

  207. Dogbiscuit says:

    My own father was an immigrant to this country and was made to know about it by the locals. We Scots are often not as nice as we claim we are. This ‘we’re a great wee country’ is an unrealistic chauvinistic idea .Self centres bullshit.Make Scotland mediocre again.

  208. Ian Brotherhood says:

    If you want a flavour of general feeling from as-close-as-yer-gonny-get, from someone who is certifiably, indubitably, definitely ‘in’ the SNP, please check this tweet and comments:

    It would appear that a real ‘leadership’ debate is well under way at a senior level within the SNP itself.

    Right now, who would object to that?

    And if so, why?

  209. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Dogbiscuit says:

    Scotland in the 1940s50s was probably a dump!

    Of course it was a dump!

    A Scottish dump, unequalled anywhere
    Unlike any over there
    Because those dung heaps are not highland dumps
    Nor the island dumps,
    They’re not my land’s dumps
    And, shite as these stinking foreign dumps may be,
    They are not the dumps of home.

  210. CameronB Brodie says:

    Fighting for Scotland’s self-determination doesn’t mean we think we’re special, unlike British nationalists. We only want to access our inalienable human rights (see the “Right to Development”, for example). At least that’s where I’m coming from. Oh, and from a respect for the law, especially Natural Law. 🙂

    Full text.

    Journal of Social Ontology | Volume 4: Issue 2
    The Relevance of Causal Social Construction

    1 Introduction
    This paper is motivated by the double awareness that whilst ontological premises seem to be an inescapable presupposition of all normative thinking, a “radical absence of ontological rigour” continues to plague the social sciences (Elder-Vass 2010, p. 64) and, I hasten to add, the political sciences even more so.

    Political theorists have systematically eschewed ontological talk, likely because of its supposed obscurity and metaphysical leanings, but also because of its apparent irrelevance for normative theorizing. Yet ontological premises inevitably shape the most basic assumptions upon which political theories are built, even when, perhaps especially when, these premises are not spelled out explicitly.1

    Ontology describes the basic constituents of a given theory. In the case of politics, it specifies the basic entities of the theory, such as individuals, groups, and institutions, articulates its basic properties, and describes the relation they entertain. Ontological premises bear consequences not only on theoretical and methodological assumptions, but also on the very normative claims a political theory utters.

    No matter whether a theory espouses a liberal understanding of the normative priority of individual autonomy, a republican or communitarian commitment to the priority of collective forms of obligation, or a marxist predilection for structural forms of societal organization, a social ontology is always assumed, often without a serious examination of its conditions of validity and of its theoretical implications.2

    As I conceive it, ontology is a critical discourse on the basic categories through which our understanding of the world is shaped. Its goal is to provide an account of the fundamental entities and structures of social existence, as well as of its main social dynamics. My first contention is that more than a political ontology, political theory needs a social ontology.

    Whereas political ontology is concerned with categories that bear directly on the explanation of political phenomena such as voting, protest, or conflict-resolution, social ontology has a much broader scope, as it is concerned with the categories required to give an account of the layers or dimensions of social life that are most relevant for understanding normative properties related to collective action.

    In other words, social ontology is concerned with the social underpinnings of normative concepts such as justice, democracy, equality, understood as social norms whose domain of application is larger than that of political behavior and institutions. By speaking of a social ontology of democracy I mean, moreover, to restrict the focus of attention to those social circumstances which are relevant not for any type of political investigation whatsoever, but specifically for understanding democracy as a norm for steering social life….

  211. Liz g says:

    David Oga @ 12.02
    Sooo.You were makin a joke listing their sexual orientation then?
    Like I said Davie… have to make an actual point…don’t go all cryptic on us….which bit was ment to be funny/ironic/observational?

  212. Dogbiscuit says:

    David.About Sir Winston Churchill.Great men are always flawed because great men are human.I don’t know or care if you’re familiar with Britain’s war time history but for the benefit of the lurkers -hello lurkers- if Churchill had thrown in the towel in 1940 where do you think we would be today? Mind you looking at Johnand Sturgeon I wonder if our grandparents wasted their time. Racist attitudes were normal in the Empire period. I’m not saying it was nice only normal. You judge history and historical characters as if you are some neurotic 18year old gender studies woke student. History is not judged by modern standards. And if Churchill was able to do his job drunk then he was a better man than me and probably you as well unless you have saved the world from Hitler Facism anytime recently? Tommies got a tot of rum before they went over the top in the trenches so don’t knock a wee dram or two?

  213. Dogbiscuit says:

    What’s better than a dram?

  214. Dogbiscuit says:

    Two drams.

  215. Col.Blimp IV says:

    I’ll drink to that!

  216. Dogbiscuit says:

    Liz? It must be nightmare trying to entertain you. The hypocrisy of people like Mackay and Hosie is fairly obvious and there’s something of the goon show about Scottish Government. Hosie he’s such an ugly bastard he should have tippled he was being hit on by an MI5 agent a honey trap. The mans a buffoon.

  217. David says:

    The Americans and Russians defeated Hitler and facism

    The Germans would have destroyed the english if it wasn’t for the English channel

    That bought them a bit of time until the Americans arrived

    The rest is history

    Nothing to do with Churchill

    He was a useless drunken old english racist.

    Apart from that he was alright

  218. Dogbiscuit says:

    Sinky . The Independence movement has been hijacked by Nicola Sturgeon. Where have you been for the past few years ?

  219. Joe says:


    Its worse than that. The Germans tried to make peace over 20 times. The German ace pilot even encouraged Hitler to invade and he said ‘no, I wont hear of it’. Churchill was a coward who hid in the countryside, only returning to London to flash his masonic ‘v’ sign at ordinary people pulling their loved ones from the rubble.

  220. Dogbiscuit says:

    David. If the Wehrmacht ever made it across the channel they would have been fucked and I have no doubt many English men would have died at their posts in order to make that happen. If the Channel wasn’t there that would have meant a completely different battle map and also British Home forces were close to their supply depots while the Germans would have been over stretched. The Churchill Government tried to keep the public’s spirits up while our Governments try to frighten us.

  221. Joe says:


    Im telling you the truth. Also for what its worth im working class and have to work. Maybe if those EU nationals listened to remainer bs thats why they were confused?

  222. Joe says:


    My pleasure. I try to put at least something interesting in with the arseyness

  223. Dogbiscuit says:

    Black Douglas?Ha!

  224. Dogbiscuit says:

    For leader ? Angus MacNeil is the man for the job.

  225. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Pretty pished now, ready to hit the proverbial, maybe squeeze-in an episode of The Sopranos (‘Just when I thought I was out…they pull me back in!’)

    But here’s a parting thought…

    Human beings are ‘pack animals’, right?

    So, imagine the ‘pack’ on the prairie…(I’m thinking zebras meself…)

    The pack relies on the outsiders, and the most alert of them, so signal danger.


    We *know* that anyone interested in Scottish politics reads this blog.


    Why do they come here?

    Do I have to labour the point?

    Hoots to all the ‘alert outsiders’!


  226. Liz g says:

    DogBiscui @ 12.18
    Both ma Grandsires were immigrant to this Country!
    and it’s pretty certain that they had such an experience..
    Whits yer point?
    Eternal Westminster Rule…that’ll sure as shit fix thing’s!
    Or makes yer fathiers experience count?
    Bring yer Government within slapping distance and use yer vote….please tell us all why Westminster Rule is preferable?

  227. Liz g says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    Stoap thinkin Zebras….start thinking Zeebadie!!!

  228. Dogbiscuit says:

    If you want a black mans perspective on current events in USA you should check out YoungRippa 59.

  229. Liz g says:

    Dogbiscuit @ a fair few times
    Don’t be afraid to denote which…Liz yer referencing…we’re both more than happy to pull yer stupidity apart…I’m Liz g and I’m the one that doesn’t stand yer nonsense the most.

  230. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s one for folk who disbelieve the concepts of “white privilege” and “structural racism”, like what British nationalism depends upon for its’ survival. I’ll get back on topic tomorrow. 😉

    The Nature of the Gaze: A conceptual
    discussion of societal privilege from an
    indigenous perspective

    This thesis explores how Kaupapa Maori paradigms can make important contributions to research topics that may not be of direct or immediate relevance to Maori communities. Insights gained from a Kaupapa Maori investigation of white privilege in Aotearoa New Zealand are discussed. I argue that cultural hegemony is maintained through structured forgetting, silence, and suppression of dissent that has dire consequences for dominant cultural groups as well as marginal.

    Structural racism and privilege are amenable to analyses utilising similar frameworks albeit from opposite sides that can provide valuable insights to understanding inequity more broadly. I also examine ways in which Kaupapa Maori analyses of white privilege can illuminate pathways of redress that will benefit all New Zealanders and provide more embracing perspectives of nationhood.

  231. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Liz g –

    It’s a true friend who speaks truth when it’s unwelcome!

    (…only one can left..)


  232. Dogbiscuit says:

    Liz what’s your point ? I did not say Westminster rule was preferable.Have you been scrolling past my political stuff and just reading the stuff that offends you? Do you have a degree in Wimins studies? Wimins studies is a pointless excercise. There’s only two things you need to know about women do they cook and can they bull a pair of boots , properly with Kiwi black. My riding boots need a proper scrubbing.

  233. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Liz g

    Zebadee didnae say – “Night night..XXX”

    He said – Time for bed…Boing!

  234. K1 says:

    “Every Director of a Department in Scotland …. White”.
    “Every Principal of a University or College …. White”.
    “Every Head Teacher in Scotland … WHite”.
    “Every Chair of a Public Sector body … White”.
    “Every High Court Judge in Scotland … White”.
    “Every Prison Governor … White”.
    “Every Editor of every News Organisation … White

    Is it a coincidence that all of these above named positions in Scotland are also filled by ‘English’ ‘White’ people too?

    Interesting ‘otherness’ and ‘exclusion’ are not just demarcated and decided by ‘colour’ alone but also by other characteristic criteria, who is it that places people in these positions? By what processes are they selected and appointed?

    Once pricks like daveyboy go a bit deeper into why all of these ‘high’ ranking postiions in Scotland are filled by most if not all English people/mostly ‘men’ too and not Scots it does raise the question why he is using this comment from ‘Anas’ not Anwar Sarwar, who he couldn’t even get his first name correct, at this moment to berate ‘scots’ for their ‘high heid yins’, but where is the list from England that would help us all to see the thousands of ‘BAME’ people employed in these positions throughout the institutions in England?

    What about that disparity? What about that ‘cultural’ takeover? What about the processes in place in our country, now that daveyboy isn’t denying we are a country with now apparently unique characteristics that seem to make us uniquely incapable of heading up most of our institutions?

    I can see why Anas is saying what he is saying and he’s not wrong but I can also see why Anas as a labour unionist won’t afford those of us pointing out these realities of how our cultural/educational and all manner of other institutions in Scotland are run by English born people and not Scottish born people.

    The proto colonialists who built Britain with slave labour on their plantations also colonised Scotland, we fought for hundreds of years against the English, that we were captured and our nations ‘integrated’ with England and that people ‘adapted’ as all who are colonised must, to survive, must be taken into consideration in terms of our part in Scotland in the slave trade, the name of our streets and the statues in our cities are a testament to our involvement, but so too England, the proto racists/colonialists.

    It is cheap, it is tawdry and it is indecent to cherry pick and aim these comments to people on this site, to in essence ‘compete’ in the manner of ‘who’s the most’ racist because of a lack of diversity in our institutions as if we are somehow more ‘racist’ than your polity in England because of this one statement made by a BAME MSP in our Scottish parliament?

    Perhaps there is an answer to your question as to ‘why’ there is a lack of diversity if most of these positions are filled by a system in place that is designed by your country’s system of ‘promotion’?

    Why is it the heads of most if not all of our Scottish institutions are filled by English people?

    Where’s the ‘diversity’ in that? Are most of England’s institutions filled by Scottish directors and governors?

    Before you start searching, the answer is no, they are not. So if we are lacking in diversity in terms of BAME perhaps that too has something to do with who ‘actually’ in practice decides who gets the top jobs in Scotland.

    I repeat we are colonised and it isn’t a ‘complex’ issue, we do not get taught our history in our schools, we may now be getting a wee bit more of that, but for hundreds of years now we have been taught ‘your’ country’s history, it is your country who set it up this way.

    Your are the proto aresohle?

  235. Liz g says:

    Col.Blimp IV
    Of course he bad

    How could I be so wrong !
    Thank You..Col.Blimp IV

  236. Liz g says:

    K1 @ 2.21.
    Oh,bloody well said….who knows how Scotland would have evolved…one thing I do know, right here right now..Is..
    Scotland’s problem is not ” Immigration ” it’s “Emigration” So, how dare anyone pass judgement…unless and untill… we are able to bring our fair share of New Scots in to our Country, then and only then , could we even think about our ability to accommodate no more…. The English problem of it overcrowding is no ours !
    Scotland has space and we need people.. The way forward is no rocket science

  237. Polly says:

    For The General who wondered “Or is this a Wings phonomenom? Because the MSM are keeping all this very quiet indeed, which must mean we are doing something right.”

    I speak only for myself when I say I started voting SNP after Blair and the Iraq war, as others did I realised then that Labour to get to power in UK, or England rather, would have to become a party I could not support. Voted SNP since. Was delighted by Salmond seizing initiative to come by helicopter and take control in 2007, even more delighted more folk agreed in 2011 and got majority. Voted yes and caught up in the enthusiasm then to create a better country. Dejected when we lost but picked myself up and caught on to euphoria again with Sturgeon’s rising membership and fight back. Believed in the better Scotland she seemed to promise until doubts crept in which I initally kept pushing down until her silence at the abuse she allowed of Joan Mcalpine. After that I could no longer not see what she was allowing to happen in the party and within Scotland she led.

    In most of that time I knew about Wings but his writing didn’t make me vote yes and I hardly read him before 2014 and didn’t regularly read it after either. I’ve read it more regularly for a while now but not signed up for notice of posts or commented until recently. No it’s not a Wings phenomenon, it’s the reverse. I already thought those things and seeing him vilified for some of it – especially and hypocritically – after his being accused of misogyny and homophobia from those same factions who behave far more badly, drew me here to add my support. I speak only for myself but I say there must be many more like me.

  238. Dan says:

    @Joe at 1:01 am

    That’s a rather short, insular, and dismissive response about your circumstances and experiences which fails to address or consider the previous points I’d made, and the effects those realities are having on other Scots and EU Citizens on a personal level.

    Haven’t even touched on the massive implications for many businesses and what that means for local and national economies and community sustainability.
    But I guess from your perspective that might all be “remainer bs” too…

  239. Sensibledave says:


    …. this is probably too late. … the only reason I posted was because of CBBs persistent assertions that English folk are more racist that Scots because, he argues, the majority of folk in England voted to leave the EU.

    You argue that it takes a little more analysis and less of the tabloid headlines to get to the truth. I agree.

  240. CameronB Brodie says:

    You’re an ignorant English nationalist. Prove me wrong and least give me a proper argument. I think we’ve all had enough of you snottery sense of superiority.

    Social Ontology

  241. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’ve barely scratched the surface of a world view recommended to me by the Royal Town Planning Institute. So you’d better have a stronger argument than you have shown us so far. Otherwise, we will have to conclude you’re simply an ignorant cultural chauvinist.

    Addressing Cultural, Ethnic & Religious
    Diversity Challenges in Europe
    A Comparative Overview of 15 European Countries

  242. Sarah says:

    @ Polly at 07.04: thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    It all comes down to the importance of truth, doesn’t it? Falsity on any matter is poisonous – no good can come thereafter.

    The Rev has to persist in writing about untruths being foisted on us in politics whatever the subject matter – the treatment of e.g. Michelle Thompson, the GRA being railroaded along – because our politicians are the body that makes our laws. They must be irreproachable in that function. If they are untruthful in any one regard then how safe are we in their hands?

    I spotted Tony Blair as a wrong ‘un the day he entered No. 10. There were metal barriers demarcating where people could stand in the street and he triumphantly grinning and waving for the cameras came along the street and into Number 10. I never remembered seeing that kind of orchestration for any previous PM.

    But the killer moment [which when I mention this, no-one else seems to have noticed] was seeing that Michael Foot, ex-Labour party leader, socialist intellectual, and all-round good man, was penned behind one of those barriers in a corner further along the street, well away from Number 10. I thought then what kind of person has planned this? Because clearly it must have been planned.

  243. Joe says:

    My point was specifically that there are those who believe that EU citizens are literally being deported or having a hard time getting the right to stay by the authorities. Full stop. Im saying those concerns are baseless and im correct as I have recent personal experience with it. In fact it couldnt be easier really.

  244. Joe says:

    As for Scotland – yes its wrong that Scottish people are being taken down a political route that theg expressly voted against. So welcome to Great Britain. Thats why theres an indy movement – a movement that most EU citizens voted against in 2014 when they thought the Union best served their purpose.

  245. CameronB Brodie says:

    So what? Scotland is still getting dragged out of the EU and our civic society damaged by English/British nationalism.


  246. Wee Chid says:

    Still don’t like Rowling and suspect that, rather than this being her view, it’s an opinion she has been encouraged to take to further her campaign against independence – A Mhairi Hunter figure but outside the party, tearing it from the other side and with more clout. I’ll never forgive her pre indy ref comments and her teaming up with the most abusive unionist trolls on twitter

  247. Joe says:

    As for hard personal circumstances due to Brexit – yes a large number of voters are British Nationalist and would vote Brexit regardless. But a significant number like myself see what the EU is, the damage thats being done and some have been on the ground, working, paying taxes and experiencing the EU in practice. Im happy that people are starting to see it all accross Europe.

  248. CameronB Brodie says:

    Joe is openly hostile to the EU and supports Brexit. You do the maths.

    Identity constructions at the intersection of mental health, religion, ethnicity and gender in Belgium

  249. Joe says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    I dont interract with people who continually use labels, ad hominems while they hide behind barely relevant academia. Now wipe the foam from your chin, take your pills and fuck off from me you sad, deluded little arsehole. Alright? 🙂

  250. CameronB Brodie says:

    I couldn’t care less if you choose not to interact we me, I’ve got you’re number sonny Jim.

    America: Equity and Equality in Health 1
    Inequality and the health-care system in the USA

  251. CameronB Brodie says:

    My proof reading is appalling but that doesn’t mean I’m a numpty.

    Full text.

    Collective and individual responsibilities for health, both physical and mental
    Principles and Practice of Health Promotion: Health Promotion and Healthy Public Policy

  252. CameronB Brodie says:

    I’ve speed read that before and must have missed the point you are making. Care to give me a brief outline of your argument?

  253. CameronB Brodie says:

    I forgot, Joe has chosen not to interact with me. Such is life. Happy days though in some respects. 🙂

    Full text.

    John Searle, Making the Social World: The Structure of Human Civilization Oxford University Press, 224pp.
    The question John Searle asks himself is a familiar one: how does the natural world of mindless, meaningless physical particles give rise to minded, free, rational, social and political human beings? The constraints Searle works under in setting about this question are also familiar.

    We are to avoid multiple ontologies, ghosts in the machine, unmoved movers and the like, and see all the causal processes that affect us as special instances of the kinds of causal processes that affect everything. Searle refuses to call this ‘monism’, because that ‘accepts the metaphysical ontologizing that we are out to reject and replace’ (p. 4). I am not sure what this means. It sounds rather reminiscent of the late Richard Rorty, but he would surely have rejected the naturalist program itself.

    One thing it might mean is that when it comes to societies and their members, there is no one-way traffic. If we say that individuals make societies, we can also say that societies make individuals: I and my thoughts are as much creatures of the English language as the English language is a creature of people like me. But Searle accepts only the direction of explanation from small to big. It is society and social ontology that interests him, and it is to be explained by the collective doings of individual agents.

    Searle’s basic thought is that human beings, uniquely, can together create what he calls ‘status functions’: the kinds of powers that we grant to certain things:

    Examples are pretty much everywhere: a piece of private property, the president of the United States, a twenty dollar bill, and a professor in a university are all people or objects that are able to perform certain functions in virtue of the fact that they have a collectively recognized status that enables them to perform those functions in a way they could not do without the collective recognition of the status.

    The functions in question are ‘deontic powers’: rights, duties, obligations, requirements permissions, authorizations, entitlements and so on. They typically belong to an institutional world, and the institutions are themselves constituted by rules determining the deontic powers of people and things within them, whether they be Presidents, coins, or pieces on a chessboard.

  254. liz says:

    @wee child you may well be right that JKR is exploiting the current GRA to get at indy but the truth is, it is what a lot of us have been saying as well.
    She is also by doing that, suffering an enormous backlash from the US film industry which is full on woke, I don’t believe she would put herself in that disadvantaged position just to get at indy.

    Kirsty Blackman wrote on twitter TW are females, even the most pro transpeople know that is false.

    And if the FM had any sense, she should have taken the moral high ground and supported JKR stating that despite our political differences, etc, I am appalled yada yada but she didn’t, She said nothing as JKR’s ex was given a FP to boast about the abuse.

    The fault lies with the FM and her careerist supporters.

  255. Dan says:

    @Joe at 10.53am

    So you’re effectively doubling down and stating that through your lived personal circumstances and experiences, you perceive it must be exactly the same for everyone else regardless of the nuance of their unique individual situations.

    That there is weapons grade delusion, but not particularly unexpected from someone that has issues with the EU and would rather jump out of being a member of a large and successful trading bloc into a raging no deal fire rather than work from within to reform the issues you personally have with the EU.

    Maybe with your personal lived experience and that projected expertise and knowledge that you exude, you could produce a simple one size fits all pamphlet for the myriad different businesses here in Scotland so they can navigate their way successfully through the impending uncertainty.

  256. Joe says:


    Handy government link explaining the steps EU citizens can take to register in the UK and stay after Brexit. Very simple. This is what I said with the initial post.

    Since then you have made assumptions on my personal circumstances, living conditions and wealth without actually addressing my initial point. Nothing new on this comments board and nothing new when talking with remain-minded individuals.

    That being said –

    1 – I do not consider the EU to be safe economically. I think it is doing more harm than good to member nations now and the Euro is a failure for any country that is not one of the major industrialised nations.

    2 – I do not consider the EU to be moving in a direction that supports democratic expression of people within the member states. I think the EU puts democratic power further away from ordinary people.

    3 – I think the EU now functions as a self serving and self perpetuating institution that will work to maintain its continued existence regardless of any evidence being shown that it is doing more harm than good.

    These are opinions that I hold from years of observation, interaction and experience. I was pro EU up until the evidence, to me, was pointing in the directions of the points i just made. However this is obviously up for debate and I am happy to change my mind on these things.

    As for personal lived experience:

    1 – I find the EU to be crushing to small businesses and the self employed by introducing legislation that only larger businesses can properly handle.

    2 – The EU policies on migration, for which no single European was asked their opinion, is damaging many parts of Europe and making the employment situation worse for people in their own countries who again were never asked.

    3 – I have seen from the remain camp (as much as from the Brexit camp) an unwillingness to stick to facts and to cherry pick details depending on the requirements for any particular conversation. The fear mongering around Brexit is one such

    So there. Ive done you the courtesy of laying out my points briefly. If you go after me personally again, even by assumptions, I’ll consider you either dishonest or moronic and wont be wasting my time with you.

  257. CameronB Brodie says:

    Joe certainly has strong opinions, though he has forgotten to justify his position with any evidence. So could somebody please ask Joe if he can prove he isn’t simply quacking out his arse?

    The Limits of Legal Reasoning and the European Court of Justice

  258. Joe says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    Yes. Indeed I have an article id like to share for just this purpose

  259. CameronB Brodie says:

    So you’re speaking to me again, kid? Do you really consider that sufficient evidence that the EU project is intrinsically corrupt and unworthy of support?

    What works to reduce prejudice and discrimination? – A review of the evidence
    A review of international evidence on prejudice reduction interventions

  260. Joe says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    Its not my fault you miss the nuances discussed in that article. Here’s another:

  261. Dan says:

    Joe says: at 1:38 pm


    Handy government link explaining the steps EU citizens can take to register in the UK and stay after Brexit. Very simple. This is what I said with the initial post.

    If you bothered to read any of my input in all the time you’ve been commenting btl you’d know I’ve spent many years interacting with the numerous EU Nationals and businesses in my locale and that I am aware of the settlement scheme. I’ve printed off and distributed relevant info to assist folk in the processes as and when it became available, and helped arrange meetings for EU Nationals to be informed on the matter.

    Since then you have made assumptions on my personal circumstances, living conditions and wealth without actually addressing my initial point. Nothing new on this comments board and nothing new when talking with remain-minded individuals.

    FFS, you’re sensitive soul ain’t ya. Did I touch a nerve by simply saying “Sounds like you’re sorted in life enough to ride out the ripples then.”
    You come across as awfy bitter sometimes. C’mon, you’ve got your “Brexit” so be happy and own it, warts and all.

    That being said –

    1 – I do not consider the EU to be safe economically. I think it is doing more harm than good to member nations now and the Euro is a failure for any country that is not one of the major industrialised nations.

    2 – I do not consider the EU to be moving in a direction that supports democratic expression of people within the member states. I think the EU puts democratic power further away from ordinary people.

    3 – I think the EU now functions as a self serving and self perpetuating institution that will work to maintain its continued existence regardless of any evidence being shown that it is doing more harm than good.

    These are opinions that I hold from years of observation, interaction and experience. I was pro EU up until the evidence, to me, was pointing in the directions of the points i just made. However this is obviously up for debate and I am happy to change my mind on these things.

    Indeed, they are your personal opinions formed from your experience, but as you seem concerned about a lack of democracy then you should also acknowledge that a larger percentage of the opinions of Scots do not align with yours.

    As for personal lived experience:

    1 – I find the EU to be crushing to small businesses and the self employed by introducing legislation that only larger businesses can properly handle.

    2 – The EU policies on migration, for which no single European was asked their opinion, is damaging many parts of Europe and making the employment situation worse for people in their own countries who again were never asked.

    3 – I have seen from the remain camp (as much as from the Brexit camp) an unwillingness to stick to facts and to cherry pick details depending on the requirements for any particular conversation. The fear mongering around Brexit is one such

    So there. Ive done you the courtesy of laying out my points briefly. If you go after me personally again, even by assumptions, I’ll consider you either dishonest or moronic and wont be wasting my time with you.

    Again, your experience is not mirrored by many folk and businesses in Scotland to the point that a majority wanted to actually leave the EU.
    That’ll be that pesky democracy being expressed that you were so concerned the EU was suppressing somewhere miles* up ^^^.
    * I’ve used miles in case kilometers triggers you to a bad place by reminding you of the EU utilising the metric system.
    LOL at the thin skin “If you go after me personally again”.

  262. CameronB Brodie says:

    What is your point caller? In what way is you argument relevant to either women’s rights, or Scotland’s right to self-determination? I’m not even sure what your argument is anyway. Please explain, I’m obviously not as perceptive as yourself. 😉

    Intentionality of perception
    An inquiry concerning J .R. Searle’s conception of
    Intentionality with special reference to Husserl

  263. Joe says:


    Its not about sensitivity. Its about time.

    It was the same with the SNP at one point. Id say ‘I do not trust the SNP and I think they will not work for Scottish Independence for A, B and C reasons’.

    The result would be a barrage of accusations and questions as to ‘my agenda’ or that im some well off Tory.

    I (and others) could spend forever going round in circles with people who have no honest intention to actually get to the argument.


    ‘They are your personal opinions formed from your experience, but as you seem concerned about a lack of democracy then you should also acknowledge that a larger percentage of the opinions of Scots do not align with yours.’

    You might note that while I am putting forward my personal opinion you are appealing to public opinion?

    ‘Again, your experience is not mirrored by many folk and businesses in Scotland to the point that a majority wanted to actually leave the EU.’

    Again, appeal to public opinion. Im not discussing with them. Im discussing with you. The fact that Scotland democratically does not want to leave the EU does not make anything ive said valid or not.

    So, it is fair to sum up your position as basically what the majority think. Unless your leaving something out?

    Ive lived in the EU and worked and payed taxes there. I have family who are in a country that is currently joining the EU. I am economically active also and pay close attention to global industry news along with monetary policy and fiscal policies of central authorities. I am quite comfortable with my position on the EU but I am happy to accept information that contradicts my current view. However you have provided nothing except a general appeal to public opinion and a willingness to make personal assumptions about me.

    My initial post regarding the government information was spurred by the many calls of ‘EU citizens being treated unfairly by our government’ that I have seen which is false but repeated to the point of it being propaganda.

  264. Dan says:

    Joe says: at 6:54 pm

    You might note that while I am putting forward my personal opinion you are appealing to public opinion?

    No, I am not appealing to public opinion, I am conveying my understanding gained from what I have read, and also seen, and heard first hand whilst visiting numerous individuals and diverse businesses in my activist role over the years right here in Scotland.
    These businesses in Scotland, some small, some medium, and some large, some owned by larger parent companies all have radically different operating procedures in relation to import , export, staffing requirements, and turnover.

    All of them are having to spend a huge amount of resources, both monetary and time, to attempt to adjust their operations to continue to be viable entities and cope with the ever moving goalposts your “Brexit” is causing.

    Nothing is perfect by a long way, the EU and SNP are included in that. Please can you explain and justify to me how economically and environmentally it makes any sense to stop trading with our local continental neighbours in a successful global trading bloc with relatively high standards of regulation to ensure the products we trade are safe, and instead go for a No Deal crash out and try as a minnow in a pond of sharks to start to agree new trade agreements with very little leverage and ultimately end up transporting inferior products from much further afield?

    Scotland has a good resource to population ratio and is a net exporter of water, fuel, power, and food, England’s however is rather bleak and relies on imports to sustain itself.

  265. Joe says:


    First paragraph I don’t disagree with. The politicking it outrageous not to mention the fact that the leadership of the UK is virtually non-existent.

    However I am prepared to delineate the poor leadership and the basic principle of leaving the EU – Brexit does not by itself equate to a successful country just as it does not by itself mean that the country will fail. This is true of Scotland. In fact the biggest issue I have with Scottish EU supporters is the same as pro Brexit British Nationalists – they hold precisely the same argument in denigrating the other – we want out of that Union while you are too small and weak to survive out of the other Union.

    Id like to demonstrate however that your view on the EU is unrealistic to the point that it could look like we are discussing different Unions. I’ll break down your 2nd from last paragraph to do so:

    ‘Please can you explain and justify to me how economically and environmentally it makes any sense to stop trading with our local continental neighbours’

    Nobody is suggesting we do. If trade stops between the UK and rEU it will be as much down to the functionality of the EU as anything else. There’s more i’ll say on that later though.

    ‘trading bloc’

    The EU is far more than a trading bloc. It is a political and economic union with constantly developing aims. A trading bloc would not have legislation that over rides the laws of member states such as immigration, trade and justice. A trading bloc does not lay out tax requirements to member countries. A trading bloc does not have its own police force, nor does a trading bloc force immigration policy on its member states at the barrel of the sanctions gun. A trading bloc does not have aspirations to its own army. A mere trading bloc would not create its own currency and therefore have leverage of the countries in the ‘trading bloc’. The EU is merely a federal states of Europe in development.

    ‘No Deal crash out’

    Again, this is as much up to the EU as the UK. The fact that the EU is a protectionist institution that does not allow member states to forge their own trade deals depending on their own requirements is partly to blame for this.

    ‘minnow in a pond of sharks’

    The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. That makes it the 6th largest market. That’s not a minnow by any stretch of the imagination.

    ‘very little leverage’

    This is a total lack of understanding of the current situation. The EU is in terrible economic conditions (pre covid included) compared to the other large economies in the world.. Multiple key industries within the EU are struggling including auto manufacturers and banks. The economic data shows that Germany was slipping into contraction before the Covid-19 situation. The banking sector when compared to the US is 3x larger as a proportion to GDP and in need of constant stimulus for which even Deutsche Bank released a report warning that if closer integration is not achieved then the fall out could be tremendous. While other economies were raising interest rates in line with their growing economies the Eurozone couldn’t get above 0%.

    That leads to the Euro (yes I understand the difference between the EU and Eurozone but the Eurozone makes up the bulk of the EU economic activity). The Euro has stifled the growth and prosperity of every country outside of the main industrialized heart of the Eurozone simply because those countries have to work under monetary policy that is geared towards the health of Germany and the other major nations. Which is why savvy nations like Sweden and Norway don’t use the Euro.

    The UK market in this climate is vital for many European industries. It is unlikely that the EU will tolerate a situation where those industries cannot access the important UK market.

    Couple this with the growing support for the UK to leave the EU from within Europe itself from now major nationalist political parties throughout the EU who continue to grow support thanks to ridiculous policy decisions of Brussels and we can see that ‘very little leverage’ is just not true.

    There is more that could be said regarding the lack of protection given to the Catalan independence guys, the brutal punishment of the Greeks to boost German banks, the talk by senior members of the EU to form an EU army, the total farce that was the mass immigration policy that nobody was asked about etc but this post could go on forever.

    I support Brexit, and do not want an independent Scotland to join the EU because it is currently an institution in a state of crisis with drastic need for reformation, probably dropping the Euro from the PIGS countries and loosening control over the economies of the individual member states in order for them to have the flexibility to get out of the hole.

    I do not see this happening easily because the EU and ECB have become a self perpetuating institutions with a lot of people with very nice careers, salaries and pensions who have no interest in diminishing their power for the good of ordinary EU citizens.

    The fact that a bulk of Scottish ‘independence supporters’ could see membership of the EU as default position should Scotland secure its autonomy from Westminster tells me that there’s a lot of dreaming and not much thinking going on.

  266. Dan says:


    Just back home and fed and watered after a mountain bike ride. Thought it would be cooler going first thing but jeezo, t’was muggy oot there.

    I get what you’re saying. As I mentioned previously, I don’t think the EU is perfect but pretty much everything in life requires compromises to be made to “fudge” something so that it generally works for a diverse range of interests.
    You have stated your very concise views on how you see things. Other people see things differently though, so a blend of positions is required to be adopted.
    As an engineer I can appreciate you striving without compromise to achieve the perfect outcome you want. I’m forever fixing people’s fuck ups where they have tried to do something beyond their skillset. Forget GRA, there’s Trans Muppets everywhere doing what they do and I just have to accept that, frustrating as it is.
    People are a strange lot, just observe btl here and witness the vast array of views and ideas continually being added into the pot by different folk, even when the same “ingredient” has been thrown into the pot previously by someone, another will add effectively the same rather than recongising it’s already been added. Aye, it’s herding cats alright.

    So what I am saying is that for all the faults the EU has, folk in Scotland expressed their will to remain in it, warts and all. There was a semblance of stability we could operate in.
    You mentioned democracy being suppressed by the EU so I’ll assume you actually believe in the democratic concept, and therefore have to accept that reality, much as it may pain you.

    An other aspect is the way “Brexit” is happening. The way it is being handled is causing a shock and uncertainties that industries are having to cope with in various ways.
    You also recognise the UK leadership is shit. So this is a far from ideal situation if you are relying on them to implement any sort of competent abilities in navigating us through an extremely involved process.
    Add covid into the mix and I suspect all our perfect ideals are going to be compromised anyway.

    I’m wary of us taking up space btl now with large posts so I’m fine with moving on and accepting you hold your views and they differ in ways from mine.

  267. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “There is a South African lady runner who wins most races who had fellow
    Female runners and the athletics bodies who want to ban her as she has
    Quite natural but high levels of male hormones?”

    Caster Semenya isn’t trans, but he’s biologically male. He was raised as a girl, had no say in the matter.

  268. Dex sux boabie says:

    The fact that members of the SNP and I am pretty sure Nicola Sturgeon was one of them that said they would put GRA on the back burner until they won the next election when the consultation had come in a few months ago I am not surprised but are the party really trying to isolate a good part of its electorate with regards to this, maybe its time for the ISP to reconsider its stance regarding only standing on the list vote

  269. Polly says:

    Sarah, sorry for vast delay in responding, don’t know if you’ll see this now, so sorry for late reply but I’m often busy at work in a stop start fashion so there’s gaps in catching up with things like this. Thanks for understanding. I didn’t know that about Blair and Foote but your feeling about it them seems similar to mine now. Once you see something like that it gives a window into everything else which you hadn’t seen before. And then comes the disappointment. Too bad about them both.

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