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Tidying up

Posted on September 28, 2021 by

Right, as promised, one last piece of admin. (This post will be removed in due time.)

We left yesterday’s piece and the associated poll up for two full days to make sure the people who don’t read Wings at weekends saw it and had the chance to vote in it too. But in truth it was pretty obvious how the vote would go from about 20 minutes in.

Like, that’s not even a little bit close.

So the remainder of the Wings Fighting Fund will be used to commission occasional opinion polls until it runs out or until (ha) a second indyref becomes a reality, whichever happens first. However, almost everyone who gave a reason for voting “Oppose” (and quite a few who voted “Support”) said they did so because they wanted me to keep the money for myself.

That wasn’t offered as an option in the poll, because I’m not the SNP or Kezia Dugdale – that money was donated and meant to be used to in some way further the cause of independence, not buy me Lamborghinis (at the time of writing my 17-year-old Mini is still doing stellar service) or country cottages.

However, lots of people in the comments also expressed a desire for a final fundraiser to mark the closure of Wings Over Scotland as a politics blog, as a sort of redundancy package. It IS traditional to give a retiring employee a carriage clock or a gold watch or some such, and as it happens there’s a thing I really want but haven’t bought because the price is so absurdly extravagant, so if readers would like to get it as a farewell gift gesture that’d be very lovely.

It’s this hilariously high-tech jacket. It’s got graphene and electric heaters and stealth pockets and all sorts of nonsense, so it’d be ideal for staying toasty while out feeding the swans and squirrels in the fast-approaching winter.

(The three families of swan babies are nearly all fully-grown now and they’re always hungry, while the patter of tiny squirrel paws is imminent if this pic from the park last week is anything to go by.)

Any excess cash raised will go, as always, on crisps, Sherbet Dip-Dabs, fruity gins, and badger food for these goons.

And of course on the foxes (currently six).

And this magical vanishing dick, who bangs on the glass with his beak at teatime if there are no suet pellets on the ledge, or knocks stuff over if the window’s open.

And lastly and absolutely leastly, these complete arses.

Click the pic below, or the poll one at the top of the page, to go to the fundraiser if you want to kick in a few quid for the going-away present. Don’t worry if you don’t – people usually donate in expectation of a good or service, not for one they’ve already had or just to buy somebody some ludicrous parkwear. I have other coats.

And that’s about it. It’s been quite a ride, gang. Hopefully we’ll meet again one day, in the future of a better land where the Wicked Witch is no more and there might actually be a chance at independence. Until then, eh?

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2851 to “Tidying up”

  1. Ottomanboi says:

    «Holly Rood» is effectively a Westminster junior common room with all the metropolitan pseud posing that such engenders.
    Tolerance is not an infinite capacity. At what point does tolerance become a vice? Apathy, passivity, indifference….
    Maybe we are now over indulgent to the supposed «rights» of the self-identifying.

  2. Robert Hughes says:

    Ottomanboi .

    ” Maybe we are now over indulgent to the supposed «rights» of the self-identifying. ”

    I think that is the inescapable conclusion : particularly , as Breeks said above and we’ve all seen transpire , when those * rights * impinge and overbear on the rights of others and , in Scotland’s case displace what should be the main focus of the- alleged- Independence seeking Party .

    Tolerance must include the right to disagree , else we’re just replacing one tyranny with another , and no amount of rainbows will disguise the fact . A crock of shit awaits anyone believing otherwise .

    Robert Knight . Yip the slippers under the bench mob , Pete’s washed-out Tartan Army of boat-stabilisers will continue their pleasure cruise until such times as a large fuck-off rock obstructs their trajectory

  3. Hatuey says:

    Robert Hughes: “ALBA would be well advised to abandon Holyweird to the motley assembly of cranks , wanks n mountebanks that warm it’s seats whilst dreaming-up new and exotic ways to fuck-up Scotland and it’s chances of ever becoming Independent…”

    I’m tempted to agree simply because you put things so well. But I’m confused about the way this is all morphing.

    We seem to be getting into a sort of scorched earth situation, giving up progressive ground here, there, and everywhere, simply because a bunch of people with too much power took the T in LGBT too far.

  4. Ron Maclean says:

    @ wee monkey 9:45am
    An interesting interview – thank you.

    ‘ – she says she hopes she never has to shake another hand again, especially not a man’s -‘

    Why would the First Minister of Scotland say that?

  5. Robert Hughes says:

    Hatuey .

    Indeed , and that would be a mistake for sure .

    My concern is that the power that the ” Ts ” have accrued – been given – will create a serious backlash , not from the likes of we contributors here , from the * ordinary * man and woman on the street and those whose tolerance has always been paper-thin .

    The conditions being created in the UK by it’s abysmal quality of politician and the inevitable drastic contraction of the Economy are ripe for exploitation by the forces of repression – both of the Right AND of the Left . Those two polarities coming to resemble the two sides of the same coin

  6. James Che. says:

    Robert Hughes.
    So much so that soon England, Scotland wales and Ireland will all be fighting on the same side,

    For survival of the people.

  7. Ottomanboi says:

    This is the official propaganda for «UKCOP26».
    Self evidently a rather anglo thing….but «in partnership with Italy»!!!!
    The FM gets the «brush off» in her own land.
    Truly, the basic right to say I disagree is threatened by this petty functionary mindset. The wider implications for intellectual life are profound.
    It is becoming evident that global systems now consider «privileges» those things that not so long ago were considered authentic rights. We seem set on the path that China has laid out for the Uyghurs. Dissent and we will starve you into submission.
    Be that as it may, Scotland with its questioning even sceptical intellectual culture based on observation and «common sense» ought to have nothing to do with this irrational anglo-saxon wokery.

  8. Republicofscotland says:

    Brian Quail the Scottish campaigner for nuclear disarmament in Scotland and Scottish independence has a cracking two-page article in the National today, which I advise everyone to read, however I can’t seem to find a link to it.

    Anyway Mr Quail, who we all know lies down in front of MoD lorries loaded with nukes that pass through Scottish cities on their way to Faslane and Coulport, that nuclear weapons are infact illegal, and have been since January this year when the UN’s Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons (agreed on in 2017) came into effect.

    The Treaty makes it illegal under International Law to develop, test, produce, manufacture, acquire, possess, stockpile, transfer, use or threaten to use nuclear weapons. States who do not comply with this are in effect rouge states.

    Biological weapons were outlawed in 1972, Chemical weapons in 1993, land mines in 1997 and cluster munitions in 2008. Mr Quail rightly adds that states that still posses nuclear weapons should be stigmatised, as to posses nuclear weapons is now a criminal offence and illegal under International Law.

    Scotland must rid itself of nukes, nukes now owned illegally (under International Law) by a foreign country (England) but located in Scotland, of which it is the largest nuclear arsenal in Western Europe, and its just thirty-miles from Scotland’s largest city. Dissolving this onesided union is the only way to remove these illegal weapons.

    Meanwhile this article reminds me of the mass pollution of Scotland by the foreign country of England, in Scotland the Dump. You’ll find this map shocking, as I did.

  9. James Che. says:

    One of the future problems facing our youth is their lack of real knowledge on how to survive serious circumstances and events other than what a certificate has supplied through a dodgy brain training education system for the last 20 / 30 years, it’s all paperwork and digital,
    Inevitably their are one or two escapees.

    But if we are to have this a great reset to build back better the governments are pushing where the economy and way of life is crashed, what have they actually learned other than how to verbally discuss the world from a foreign theory reality perspective.

    If any of the youth survive to the other side it will not be the middle class or wealthy kids.
    It will be the children that lived the skill sets learned by having to survive poverty and hardship.

    A crashed economy includes every part of your life.
    Heating, energy, cars, internet, Food and and footwear. Hairdressers and barbers, Small businesses where the go shopping, pubs and clubs, services like bin collections, fuel, roads and infrastructure to enable travel.

    I had a youngsters ask me how do you light a fire in the house?.

    And I wondered how they are going to survive a full winter in a energy/ fuel crash, how would the cook a basic meal. Or dry their clothes when they have no fuel supply to their house…….

    Because if the governments around the world intend stopping fossil fuel energy it all for the average household before a full replacement energy is here there will be that gap.

  10. Ebok says:

    robertknight says:
    Robert Hughes @7:57
    “That would entail the risk of making an actual sacrifice for something greater than their own continuing berth on the luxury gravy train : Destination Nowheresville”
    Aye, the cozy-feet Pete’s of the Scottish political class have nothing to gain and everything to lose if the current setup is altered in any way.

    We’ve been there before: Scotland awash with English rulers and subordinates, titan who can’t be bought emerges, leads people towards freedom, almost succeeds, discovers fifth column at work, titan betrayed by collaborators, collaborators handsomely rewarded, nation double-crossed.

    That seems to be to point we are at now, and of course, as events unfolded back then, the main conspirator did eventually lead us to independence – after backing himself into a corner. Whether we’d ever have got their but for that fateful day in Feb 1306, we’ll never know.

    However, it’s pretty safe to say that today’s collaborators won’t get us there. But change will come and we will get there because events are so unpredictable, and like someone pointed out in a previous comment, we only need to win the argument once.

  11. James Che. says:

    Not exactly living up to the green new world that Boris spouts.
    Westminster haven’t cleaned up war waste from well.

    I suppose the same future is to be fore told for all these new car batteries solar panels and wind turbines,
    They never clean up their dangerous mess after them,
    I wonder if all the people from down south whom are moving here in droves know where their house fits into that map,.

    I know my dad used to work in one of those areas,
    And he died of cancer at 57 years old of cancer. Leaving a young family behind that where still in school.

  12. Republicofscotland says:

    “We seem set on the path that China has laid out for the Uyghurs. Dissent and we will starve you into submission.”



    The Uyghurs are residents of China’s most Western province Xinjiang, which has a valley that borders Afghanistan, currently China is paving a way through this valley in its Belt and Road initiative.

    Meanwhile the Uyghurs are the predominant population in Xinjiang province, and there living conditions have steadily improved since the 1950’s, more schools, doctors etc. The reports of Uyghurs being badly treated in China, probably stems from the fact that the US is sponsoring a anti-China Uyghur group within the province to cause all sorts of mayhem, its been touted that the idea is to ty and get the Uyghurs to rise up and declare the Xinjiang province as a new Uyghur state, and in the process damage China’s Road and Belt initiative, and create a new state right on the border with China, that Western nukes can be placed in.

  13. James Che. says:

    Time for Scotland to end this false treaty of union before Scotland is beyond being a habitat for humans, never mind becoming a safari park for wildlife.

    Or to separate from the devolved government by choosing a new government under a people’s parliament.

    These are two legal routes that Alba should be chasing. And sooner rather than to late.

  14. sarah says:

    This is a great level of debate going on today and most of yesterday. Thank you!

  15. Andy Ellis says:

    @Republicofscotland 1.49pm

    So you’re in favour of independence for Scotland, but not for Xinjiang then? How does that work?

    What about Tibet? Catalonia? Anywhere else you feel isn’t entitled to independence because *great satan*? Good grief.

    Try this one for a thought experiment you utter rocket:

    “Meanwhile the Scots are the predominant population in the Scottish province, and there (sic) living conditions have steadily improved since the 1950’s, more schools, doctors etc. The reports of Scots being badly treated in the UK, probably stems from the fact that the Russians are sponsoring a anti-UK Scottish group within the province to cause all sorts of mayhem, its been touted that the idea is to ty and get the Scots to rise up and declare the Scottish province as a new Scottish state, and in the process damage the UK’s Global Britain initiative, and create a new state right on the border with the UK, that Western nukes can be placed in.”

    Is it only Uyghurs that are they the wrong kind of nationalists for you?

  16. Derek says:

    “…rouge states…”

    Nah, that’s made up…

  17. Republicofscotland says:

    Andy Ellis @2.56pm.

    What’s happening in Xinjiang, or more precisely what the US has attempted to sponsor, via its National Endowment for Democracy, an offshoot of the CIA, is an uprising a colour revolution type event, using violence against the Chinese in favour of the Uyghur population of which most are perfectly happy with the status quo.

    It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Uyghur people and independence from the Chinese state. The US doesn’t care one iota about the Uyghur population in Xinjiang, the goal is to damage China economically.

    The Great Satan (USA) has done this on many occasions in South America, causing civil unrest and eventually civil wars backing anti-socialist groups, again its basically wars of economics, though some are just as bloody in nature as outright wars.

    Much of what ails the planets today is down to the Great Satan’s bellicose foreign policies.

  18. Andy Ellis says:

    @RoS 4.05pm

    Even if there was any merit in your analysis, surely even someone as deluded as you can’t think that having the governments of those nice gentlemen Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping would result in better outcomes?

    I mean, I know there ARE people mad enough to think like you: it’s the modern day equivalent of the folk we all used to laugh at who insisted the USSR wasn’t so bad as the tanks rolled in to Budapest in 1956, or Prague in 1968….but you can’t honestly be deluded enough to think that any more than a tiny minority of Scots actually agree with you, can you?

    Casual use of the “Great Satan” line is a huge tell of course. Truly you’re the Gorgeous George of WoS BTL comments. You’ll be praising the indefatigability of Ali Khamenei next. You’re more to be pitied than scorned really aren’t you?

    There’s definitely a wee want about anyone unironically using the Great Satan line and expecting anyone to take them remotely seriously.

  19. Confused says:

    I hope the Uyghurs are not these awful “blood and soil” nationalists. Surely they should adopt the true path of civicism-uber-alles and just sell independence to the Soft Noes among the Han Chinese “New Uyghurs”?

  20. Andy Ellis says:

    @Confused 4.29

    Well according to Republicofscotland the Uyghurs are entirely happy to be part of the benevolent PRC and it’s all part of the Great Satan’s plan of world domination to stir up the Uyghurs, whose nationalism is apparently not “real” but a product of the CIA?

    I suspect most Uyghur nationalists are currently in Chinese re-education camps or have fled abroad. Doubtless RoS will be along shortly to tell us that all disinformation spread by the Great Satan, and that all of the minorities in China are entirely happy.

    I’m still a bit unclear about why it’s OK for Scots to push for self determination, but not Uyghurs (or presumably Tibetans) though?

  21. Republicofscotland says:

    Andy Ellis @4.20pm.

    The figures speak for themselves when it comes to US interests, they have invaded or regime changed far more than any other country, infact the Monroe Doctrine says plainly that South America is the USA’s domain and no other country will interfere in it.

    China is seen as an economic threat, and in a few years it will also be a viable military threat to US dominance. Its patently obvious to anyone with half a brain, why the US is attacking on several front with China in mind.

    We have the blatant approach to Taiwan by the US selling it arms, and encroaching in its waters, when the US promised not to interfere in matters between Taiwan and mainland China.

    The we have Australia so obedient to the US that it has severely damaged its economy in an attempt to damage China’s, its reward for this obedience is to pay handsomely for US built nuclear subs, such is the acquiescence of the Aussie military it can no longer deploy a viable military force without US participation, and like Japan, its infrastructure has been hacked entirely by the multiple US listening stations within the country.

  22. Andy Ellis says:

    @RoS 4.46pm

    Tendentious waffle and totally body swerving the issue I see. One might almost think you didn’t really believe the shite you’re spouting about Xinjiang, or perhaps you’re just too embarrassed to try and defend your crassly ill-informed assertions?

    We “get” that you don’t like what you insist on calling the Great Satan bud, we’re just questioning why you uncritically accept Beijing’s world-view and write off any concerns about Uyghur self determination, yet expect us to believe you’re an advocate for Scottish self determination. Isn’t the right of self determination universal, or does it only apply unless Beijing or Moscow object?

    Seems a bit harsh on some of the nationalities in China and Russia. One might almost think you were operating a double standard?

  23. Republicofscotland says:

    Andy Ellis @4.54pm.

    I’m not uncritical of Chinese actions, however I’ve read enough to know that US sponsored terrorist groups such as East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), which the US specifically de-listed as a terrorist group for the sole purpose for it to point the anti-Muslim finger at Beijing, to damage the Belt and Road initiative with Muslim countries, and US backed anti-Chinese propaganda stations such as Radio Free Asia, and the US funded World Uighur Congress are all in play in the Chinese province of Xinjiang.

    The US often de-lists terrorist organisations when it benefits their belligerent foreign polices such as the US also de-listed the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), a terrorist organization used by the US and its allies to conduct terror operations against the government and people of Iran.

  24. Confused says:

    I used to quite like Tom Clancy novels, but I would never take on their implied worldview (or is that weltanschauung?)

    “Uyghur Genocide”?

    – from the same people who gave you

    40 minutes to armageddon
    babies killed in incubators
    save darfur
    paveway humanitarianism
    B52 Liberalism
    assad gassed his own people
    the war on terror for trannies and drugs
    the war on drugs for terror and trannies
    – and many more.

    Let’s keep playing that old broken record, one more time – since the average westerner has his pattern recognition faculties bashed out of his head by a crap education and mainstream media. No one speaks “uyghur” or chinese here, I would think, so direct knowledge is impossible, instead we get the briefing notes from people like the RIAA, Foreign Affairs and Terrorism Experts at St Andrews, who are completely reliable, of course.

    China bad, you say? Let’s have another Opium War. Send the chinks a message.

    That Russia/China are doing exactly what Brezinski said USA should prevent (the Grand Chessboad) if it wants to stay on top, is just a coincidence. An independent Uyghuristan would put an almighty spanner in the new silk road I would think; maybe they would let the USA have a military base there as well.

    A cynic might suggest the Americans are running the same “stir up the muslims” scam they did in Afghanistan (which then bit them in the arse).

  25. Ottomanboi says:

    I DO hope your comment was tongue well in cheek. Belt and Road, good..really?
    If not…..
    The Chinese are schmoozing Taliban to help quell «Islamic terrorism» in Eastern Turkistan aka Xinjiang. For terrorism read struggle for independence and freedom from Han «plantation».
    The Uyghurs do not wish to go the way of Tibet.
    But Chinese investment….what’s not to love? Just another manifestation of ye olde imperialism, oh couldn’t be, could it?

  26. Andy Ellis says:

    @confused 5.10pm

    So after stripping away all the “Great Satan” sophomoric marxist psycho-babble, the basic RoS and confused “sell” is what then…? That the Uyghurs don’t deserve or can’t have self determination because “USA bad”?

    It’s a special kind of stupid to actually come out with the line that because we can’t REALLY be sure of what’s going on in Xinjiang (why might that be do you think….?) we should just believe the word of folk who call the USA the Great Satan, or attribute all the present world’s ills to Washington/neo-liberalism/[insert sophomoric hate object du jour here].

    I’m sure lots of people here speak Uyghur – not least the many who have fled Chinese persecution – and there are plenty of folk who speak fluent Chinese and are experts in Chinese politics. Doubtless you feel the terrorism experts at St Andrews, in the many other universities around the world and in think-tanks and those who write papers for academic journals are somehow part of the Great Satan’s weltanschauung? I mean…it’s a view, just not one that anyone sane should give a moment’s credence to.

    Interesting though that BTL comments here is such a rich source of those pushing the “Great Satan” line. One might almost think they had an agenda: I’m just not sure its one that advances – or even ultimately has much to do with – advancing self determination in Scotland or anywhere else.

    People like you and RoS certainly seem content to leave anyone other than Scottish nationalists hanging in the wind. Why is that? Surely is the majority of Uyghurs want an independent state they’re entitled to one aren’t they? Same should go for Tibetans or the Taiwanese shouldn’t it? You can’t honestly be intellectually dishonest enough to say that none of these things are “real” they’re just plots by the USA to destabilise China?

    Because that’d be……you know….moon howling, and it’s not Halloween until tomorrow.

  27. Dan says:

    sarah says: at 2:04 pm

    This is a great level of debate going on today and most of yesterday. Thank you!

    Here’s more to ponder. It’s possible to completely rewire an ancient David Brown tractor using nothing more than the three wires from a metre and a half of recycled mains cable.
    Brown / live for feed to warning lights from ignition switch and also starter solenoid feed for cranking, Blue / neutral for alternator charge light, Green & Yellow / Earth for oil pressure switch.
    Alert tractor enthusiasts will notice the word “alternator”, yep, just converted it from a crappy non-working dynamo and regulator to an alternator setup using an old VW Polo alternator.
    Surely maximum eco points pour moi and complimentary hand job from the Cop26 Masif for being green as fuck.
    Proof there’s no need to build new tractors and import them from far off lands.

  28. Republicofscotland says:

    “The Chinese are schmoozing Taliban to help quell «Islamic terrorism» in Eastern Turkistan aka Xinjiang.”


    Turkey, a member of NATO, offered the U.S. a helping hand. Uyghurs were flown with their families to Istanbul, with Turkish passports, through hubs in Southeast Asia. Then, their
    passports were confiscated in Istanbul. Many Uyghurs were recruited, trained, and then transported into war-torn Syria. Smaller group stayed in places like Indonesia, joining jihadi
    cadres there. When terrorist groups in Syria were almost thoroughly defeated, some Uyghurs were moved to Afghanistan.

    Its these fighters for the West that are causing unrest in Xinjiang, with ultimate goal of seriously disrupting the Belt and Road initiative. Yes there are vocational training camps in Xinjiang province where Uyghurs learn Chinese and job skills to turn them away from terrorism and religious extremism, of which some have been brainwashed into by US backed Uyghur proxy fighter in Syria or Afghanistan.

    I certainly don’t agree with China’s position on Tibet, Western countries haven’t helped in this area in recent years most have been too afraid to host the Dalai Lama, for fear of Chinese sanctions, nor do I agree with China’s position on secret executions, and proper mediation is required over the claims on the Spratly islands.

    The notorious Guantanamo Bay prison was opened under the George W. Bush administration in 2002, Washington incarcerated 22 ethnic Uyghurs there. The Uyghurs at Guantanamo, some of whom were imprisoned for 12 years, were held despite being “not convicted of any crime”. Much of this is forgotten.

  29. Derek says:

    Dan says:
    30 October, 2021 at 5:40 pm

    Surely maximum eco points pour moi


    Proof there’s no need to build new tractors and import them from far off lands.

    As long as it continues to do what it’s needed to and the engine’s in good nick, I agree. The greatest energy use in a vehicle’s lifetime is in its construction and destruction. If you can put off the destruction for longer, good.

  30. sarah says:

    @ Dan: genius!

  31. Ottomanboi says:

    To those interested in «liberation».
    The people of Sherqiya Türkiston deserve the benefit of the doubt.
    Imperial China was somewhat less predatory than the hybrid ComiCapitalist mash up that the modern state is.
    One may respect and admire aspects of the US, China, England or the old Ottoman empire without falling on ones knees in dewy eyed veneration.
    A sense of proportion in foreign matters is a requisite.
    Big powers do nothing for nothing.
    Bonne soirée as some might say in Ürümqi.

  32. sarah says:

    O/T: Sarah Fanet has been accepted as SNP candidate for Highland Council election 2.12.2021 for Fort William & Ardnamurchan ward.

    Nowhere in the website of Facebook page does it mention that she had gender reassignment surgery. Given that there has been recent controversy in Highland about Culloden Academy’s toilets being changed from Boys/Girls to mixed, and back again once the parents found out, I would have thought the voters should be informed by the candidate of this aspect of their personal history.

  33. sarah says:

    Forgot to say, the Rev wrote an article about Sarah Fanet on 22.10.2020.

  34. Dan says:

    @ sarah

    Link to article to save folk searching.

  35. Hatuey says:

    Andy doesn’t seem to learn from his mistakes which means we end up going over the same inane arguments again and again. In situations like this it’s best to stick to simple truisms that the average 7 year old would understand;

    1) the West, in particular the US and UK, isn’t in a position to lecture any country on human rights. The record of the west on human rights is such that even letting them take part in discussions on human rights would be an affront.

    2) naturally in a more rational and civilised international system we would have respect for international law and an organisation that could arbitrate and adjudicate on human rights, etc. The fact that we don’t is entirely down to western countries like the US and Britain pursuing their own narrow national interests.

    If European and western leaders were serious about international justice and doing the right thing, they would devote themselves to two things; A) building a system of international law that actually works with enough power invested to enforce order on the chaotic mess we have created, and B) apologising for the crimes and exploits of the past that have caused untold misery, death, and crippling poverty in the world.

  36. Dorothy Devine says:

    ‘Now, I have other more important stuff to do than play whack-a-mole with folk I no longer have any time or (for the most part) any respect for’

  37. sarah says:

    @ Dan: 🙂

  38. Hugh Jarse says:

    With Whisky and other spirits produced in Scotland making up 20% of total UK food and drink exports by value, and the share heading for the continent now containerized, and shipped directly to avoid the Brexit bonus’ by truck, will next years GERS story acknowledge the change?

  39. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Who’s all going to be in Glasgow next Saturday?

    A sea of Saltires would seem to be a must.

  40. robbo says:

    We revealed in September how the president of the SNP had attacked Robertson for failing to concentrate on “the day job” after he plugged Vienna online.

    Mike Russell, who previously held Robertson’s Cabinet position in which he is supposed to be leading the fight for IndyRef2, said: “Hmm – might be a breach of MSP code too. And legitimate for people to ask what he is doing in the day job”.

    Breached the MSP code too- surely not!

  41. Robert Hughes says:


    Minger goes Minga .

    From Vogue to Indigene in 5 easy ( barefoot/barefaced ) steps .

    Worra gal , is there no beginning to this woman’s skills ?

    Hope she never had to shake any male hands in the process .

    ” While Scotland is not at the negotiating table, my pledge is that the Scottish Government will do everything and anything we can to ensure their message is heard as part of a successful Cop26, alongside the doubling of our world-first climate justice fund for the world’s poorest and more vulnerable communities.”

    Maybe the indigenous peoples of Govanhill , Pollok , Easterhouse etc should start wearing beaded headbands n mixing water from the sacred Clyde with their swally of choice .

    Who knows , maybe the Progressive Hiawatha would deign to notice them if they did .

    No offence to those people trying to bring attention to their plight , more power to them , but Sturgeon’s desperate attention-seeking is nothing more than smoke- virtue- signals for the benefit of the global movers n shakers she so avidly wants to impress

  42. Dan says:

    Biblical rain oot there. Howz yon school fairing up Captain Yossa?

  43. Haagsehighlander says:

    Good morning folks,
    before the May election i noticed an awful lot of the woke crew, trying to get in, in the HI region.Why?
    When i left 9 yrs ago,there was houses going up everywhere,now everytime i talk to someone back home{Thursday} houses everywhere,no parks or new schools,no green spaces,just houses.
    So was wondering why the census was put on hold in Scotland.Last week at the budget,airport tax was not going to be applied in Aberdeen/Inverness.
    Last week on FB,The highland times showed an article [cant find it now???}on new houses being built from Tore roundabout back to Inverness.The contractor? Aye Springfield,are they the ones who got a nice big contract from Nicola?
    Also just saw Arshlok on Marr,he wouldnt comment on the Cambo field.{Lets see what happens} aye,the same as the carbon capture!
    Its Time.

  44. John Main says:

    @Andy Ellis

    Some good posts from you in response to the “Citizen Smith” inanities of Republic. Saved me the bother of shooting him down in flames.

    The key to understanding Republic is to recognise that he wants, not a re-born Alba, but a New Albania.

    I have pointed out to him before that his twisted drivel in no way advances the Scottish Independence cause. It is a complete mystery to rationalists why he persists with it on this site.

  45. Republicofscotland says:

    On Andy Ellis’s point of Taiwan and independence, I’m not against Taiwanese independence, but lets not fool ourselves into believing that the US has taken an interest in Taiwanese independence because it cares about the people of Taiwan, it doesn’t.

    Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, and the Chinese navy rolled up to the coast of California, which currently has a blooming secessionist movement within the rich State. Now image like the US is currently doing now with Taiwan, that China sold missile systems to California, and Chinese soldiers landed in California to train Californian military forces on how to use the missile batteries, what would be the response from Washington to this, considering its illegal under the US Constitution for a state to secede, would Biden or any other US POTUS be as restrained as Beijing has been? very unlikely I say.

    The USA is only interested in Taiwan’s independence or the independence of Hong Kong, to try and damage the Chinese economy, and to impinge and reduce its seafaring trading routes.

  46. Republicofscotland says:

    “I have pointed out to him before that his twisted drivel in no way advances the Scottish Independence cause. ”

    John Main @10.22am.

    My twisted drivel as you put it with regards to why the US, the UK and Australia are attempting to intimidate China has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on Scottish independence.

    I await with bated breath, your comments that will “shoot me down in flames” as you put it on why the Great Satan (USA) is hovering around Taiwan.

  47. John Main says:

    @Hatuey 30 October, 2021 at 7:45 pm

    “If European and western leaders were serious about international justice and doing the right thing, they would devote themselves to two things; A) building a system of international law that actually works with enough power invested to enforce order on the chaotic mess we have created, and B) apologising for the crimes and exploits of the past that have caused untold misery, death, and crippling poverty in the world.”

    I guess that A) may be beyond even one of your many talents, Hatuey, but why not try anyway as an example to the rest of us? Show us how it’s done.

    As for B), you nasty, little criminal you, let’s hear your apologies on here. Leave nothing out. From the sounds of it, you must have been a right little b*st*rd.

    Along with the vast majority of Scots, I have nothing to apologise for. The only sane conclusion I can draw from Hatuey’s post is that it’s crims like him whose evil behaviour has given the rest of us a bad name.

    Sanctimonious, hand-wringing Hatuey.

  48. John Main says:

    Republicofscotland – 31 October, 2021 at 10:31 am

    “I await with bated breath, your comments that will “shoot me down in flames” as you put it on why the Great Satan (USA) is hovering around Taiwan.”

    [long suffering sigh]

    Tell you what Republic. Baited breath could be a symptom of a serious and more deeply-rooted problem. I would get that checked out if I were you.

    I’m guessing you are ideologically opposed to any sort of private medicine, and not the worst kind of virtue-signalling hypocrite, so you had better get your skates on. The mess the SNHS is in right now, could be months until you get seen.

  49. Robert Hughes says:


    I’ve been asking similar questions .

    I live near Inverness and the amount of new housing ( 80/90% for sale the rest * affordable * for rent ) and related infrastructure – including a new swing-bridge over the Caledonian Canal some 100yds from the old , still functioning , one , a plethora of roundabouts and commercial units , as you say , no new schools or social amenities that I’m aware of – is immense .

    The question is who are all these developments for ? It can’t be for the current population alone , the supply is far in excess of demand/affordability .

    We have to assume the builders – aye the omnipresent Springfield being the main one – are confident of shifting them , why else build them ?

    Is the expectation ( knowledge ) that the accelerating trend of South to North migration will continue unabated ?

    My guess is yes it will , with fairly predictable consequences for locals trying to get on the property ladder or even find genuinely affordable housing : and for any future vote on Independence .

    This is not alarmist fearmongering . It really is happening

  50. Andy Ellis says:

    @Hatuey 7.45pm

    So your brilliant suggestion is what? Nothing can be done unless and until we have a global government everyone supports that is pure of heart? We should simply abandon any people subject to oppression because “the West” isn’t ideologically pure enough for your standards?

    I find it hard to believe that you or anyone else can honestly believe that there’s a moral equivalence between authoritarian regimes like China and Russia and those in the West, but given unreasoning roasters in here talking about the Great Satan perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised. As with other issues that have been discussed on here recently however, the small claque of nativist seals clapping for nativist fishes are hardly representative of the independence movement, still less of the electorate as a whole.

    You’re entitled to your belief that all the ills of the world are exclusively the fault of the West and/or the Great Satan, but it remains just assertion and makes you look like a crank that the vast majority will simply write off as an Icke-ian level zoomer. Nobody normal believes your ideological take: it’s sophomoric student politics stuff.

  51. Derek says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:
    30 October, 2021 at 10:58 pm

    Who’s all going to be in Glasgow next Saturday?

    A sea of Saltires would seem to be a must.

    Yup, a wee bit of awareness-raising.

  52. Republicofscotland says:

    “Democracy in Scotland is being dismantled while the SNP+SGP/Scottish Government gives us a running commentary.”

    I have to agree with Peter A. Bell’s comment here, as the Anti-Scotland Office budget creeps up, it will eventually syphon enough powers from Holyrood, to turn it into nothing more than a talking shop, our very own version of Stormont awaits us.

    Meanwhile this will massage Sturgeon giant fragile ego, for a little while, she’s been chosen to be the patron of the German Constance Council Prize

  53. Hugh Jarse says:

    You’re too good for this place Andy, why not set up your own…

    ROS, Not sure if my memory is correct, but the Great satan thing started as an Iranian dig at the UK (the Little Satan) as much as anything.
    Anyway, it’s really irritating for some people. Good work, carry on.
    You can drop the (US) explaining, we all know by now mate.

  54. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Main 10.22pm

    It’s a sair fecht but somebody’s got to do it. It’s be a shame to see the site go under with the all the trolls lined up on the parapet of the WoS bridge because the adults had all left the room? Not that it will have any impact on the troglodytes concerned of course: pork can’t be educated as they’ve long demonstrated.

    Their sophomoric Tooting Popular Liberation Front politics has always had a constituency of course. Sadly social media today has validated their delusions of adequacy, whereas back in the day folk just pointed and laughed at their inanities.

    As you and others have pointed out, an independent Scotland constituted by them would be like Hoxha’s Albania without the sunshine. The sundry nativists, anti vaxxers and Great Satan opponents in here actually share a good deal with the gender woo extremists of course. Manichean views of the world are dangerous whichever end of the political spectrum they come from of course.

    Interesting that in the Taiwanese example above there moon howlers simply can’t accept that the USA’s influence or motives are anything other than than uniformly and absolutely negative. The red curtain of ideological certitude is so comforting for the hard of thinking. You almost feel sorry for them if they weren’t so personally unpleasant. Perhaps that’s why they remind me of the TRA extremists: they have much in common.

  55. Republicofscotland says:

    “Not sure if my memory is correct, but the Great satan thing started as an Iranian dig at the UK (the Little Satan) as much as anything.”

    Hugh Jarse.

    I’m under the impression that it was either the Ayatollah Khomeini who used the term little Satan for Israel in 1979, or that Colonel Gaddafi used the term Little Satan for Israel in 1980.

    Ex-Israeli president Netanyahu, reluctantly acknowledged the pejorative term for Israel on a visit to the US, when speaking on the subject of Iran.

  56. robbo says:

    Damm shame, never mind. And they thought they would be living the “life of Reilly” with no consequence’s. LMAO – tough titty old chaps!

  57. Haagsehighlander says:

    Thanks for the reply Robert,
    Aye after reading Prof Bairds articles, its definitely the re-colonization of the Highlands.
    I know Raigmore canna cope as it is,its for the whole of H&I,and all this construction going to add to the pressure,aye well thought out.
    Oh and i have to mention the fuckin monster concrete penis theyve put in the river ness,against most of the populations wishes i think,couldve used it to do something with upper bridge street,thats been screaming “fix me”since it was unveiled.
    And havent they also remapped the areas of Inverness,apparently where i used {The Hill on the crown} to live is now Merkinch. It was called The Crown long before the union,some say its called that as thats where the first King of Scotland was crowned.Merkinch was across the river,am i right in saying this?

  58. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Well named 11.24 am

    I’ll give your input all the consideration it deserves ‘K?

    As for the Great Satan thing, it’s not irritating as much as a huge tell that those using it are unreasoning nitwits. I know they probably feel it’s a bit edgy and gives them some street cred amongst a section of the cybersphere they want to appeal to, but to the vast majority it’s just risible.

    People aren’t laughing with them, they’re laughing at them. Nutters like RoS, Hatuey, yourself and sundry other moon howlers just lack the self awareness to distinguish the difference.

  59. Hatuey says:

    “I find it hard to believe that you or anyone else can honestly believe that there’s a moral equivalence between authoritarian regimes like China and Russia and those in the West”

    That’s good, I didn’t say that. We haven’t discussed moral equivalence. Actually it’s a subject I think you’d be advised to avoid since on one hand we have a country that’s essentially innocent when it comes to international transgressions and, on the other, a handful of countries that have systematically transgressed, repeatedly, on truly massive scales.

  60. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dorothy Devine 8.44 pm

    Do you ever contribute anything other than this and slagging other folk off Dorothy? I get that you seem to have an overweening desire to get pats on the head from those you (unaccountably) appear to admire on here, but your behaviour is the very definition of trolling: you don’t actually have anything original to contribute, you just enjoy sitting on the sidelines throwing rocks at folk who are actually contributing. Away and gies peace ya troll.

  61. Hugh Jarse says:

    RoS, you’re probably right,my memories from the late 70’s/early 80’s are well pickled.
    Still, I’m sure i saw some LS/UK linkage, as a slur, and the Rushdie stooshie is ringing a bell.

    Defending the foreign policies of Big Oil bought Nation’s as regards Iran and the Middle East isn’t easy, but then some here are super gifted.

  62. Robert Graham says:

    Sturgeon ” All attendees to COP26 will be subject to VAX pass rules ”

    Oh no they fkn won’t and she knew it when she said it


  63. Robert Hughes says:


    Mea culpa ! I’m not a native Invernessian ( I’m Glaswegian ) though after 30 some years ( apart for some extended periods living in that mystical location we know as ” abroad ” ) residence consider myself an adoptive Highlander , so my knowledge of the origin of local place names is – woefully – limited . I do know the Crown area , one of best in Inverness for sure , and your speculation on that name sounds plausible .

    I have to say , I disagree with your own and what appears to be the vox populi opinion on the new artwork on the River Ness : I like it and I’m disappointed it has so quickly become a target for – pretty shite – graffiti .

    People will always have different opinions on public and publicly-funded Art , on aesthetic/financial/social grounds , that’s to be expected : for me , if it adds to the beauty/interest of an area , is well-conceived/executed and sits well in it’s location I can think of worse ways to spend public money

  64. Hatuey says:

    On TV they are excitedly discussing the prospects of a deal coming out of the COPD conference… (I added the D intentionally btw, and it’s about the only touch of humour you will find in this comment)

    Anyway, I’m a bit confused because world leaders have already come to a decision on climate change. They’ve already done a deal.

    By “world leaders” I mean those that really run the show, huge energy companies, banks and investment companies, the rich and wealthy of the world, etc.

    The deal goes something like this; nothing.

    It’s business as usual. Sure, there will be death and destruction on a massive scale but if you have enough cash and clout you can avoid all that in some chateau or bunker in one of the predicted environmental ‘safe spaces’ (countries and regions that are expected to survive the looming catastrophe).

    Actually, they aren’t even really keeping this decision secret. Investment and interest in those safe spaces is steadily rising. There’s detailed research and modelling behind this stuff based on things like rising sea levels.

    Companies that specialise in the construction of disaster-proof bunkers are advertising in all the right places. Business is booming.

    I suspect they have an option for the super-rich that involves sitting things out in space, too — it’s a subject that comes up a lot in the sort of discussions I’m talking about.

    If you know where to look, you’ll find them openly discussing all of this stuff and many seem to be quite eagerly looking forward to a world with significantly less people.

    That’s the reality and we shouldn’t confuse the marketing strategies of big business, with their feigned concern for the environment and mankind, as anything resembling a desire for a real solution.

    The same goes for COP26. It’s basically a political marketing stunt. Most politicians are in the pockets of the real world leaders and couldn’t do a thing about the environment even if they wanted to.

    Have a nice day.

  65. Republicofscotland says:

    John Main @10.54am.

    Just as I thought John, like Mr Ellis, who appear increasingly perturbed at me using the terms Great Satan and Little Satan, you are full of hot air.

  66. Dan says:

    The Chosen One says: at 12:08 pm

    Do you ever contribute anything other than this and slagging other folk off…

    That’s pure quality self-awareness coming from the same guy that made the 11.27am post! 😉
    Especially so when you’ve spent months regularly slagging off contributors with your often unwarranted derogatory pish because some poster’s input doesn’t align with your own views.

    There have been plenty subjects that you could have offered input into, but instead you choose to ignore or brush them aside and focus on the personal attack.
    EG. I highlighted some of the issues that many rural areas are enduring, and you just waffled on that this sort of thing is happening all over the world…
    FYI I can’t influence what is happening all over the world as your Civic Global Nationalism doesn’t afford me voting power in those jurisdictions.
    Instead I attempt to actually consider how we could deal with the matter with the limited tools we do actually have. So some positive input from a range of folk wouldn’t go a miss instead of the name calling.

  67. Robert Hughes says:

    Hatuey @ 12.46

    Spot-on mate . That’s my perception of the COPout * Spectacle * too .

    This is purely speculative , of course , how can we humble peons ( peed-ons ) know for certain ? but maybe the obsessive drive to vaccinate the entire planet is not unconnected with population control ? If so , the result may not manifest in this generation or even the next but would ultimately reduce the global population .

    Here’s the plot twist …….

    What if , given humankind’s inability/unwillingness to have less children , such extreme measures as clandestine infertility-producing drugs will in future times be seen as a necessary and prescient decision ?

  68. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 12.54 pm

    No huge surprise that someone as minimally self aware as you posted that Dan. If you can’t see the difference between my contributions and trolling like Dorothy’s, I can’t really help you. The difference is I at least try and interact with the bullshit some moon howlers post on here. I’m allowed to call it bullshit and characterise them as moon howlers. Stop trying to tone police the internet, unclench your panties, let go of the pearls you clutch and breathe.

    I’m not obliged to interact with your personal hobby horse, nor to find them germane to the discussions at hand. It’s patently true that many of the issued you raise about rural problems are issues around the world: they’re not unique to Scotland. That doesn’t make them less important, or that they can’t be discussed, but I’m not obliged to interact with you on them, or to give them the same head space as you obviously do.

    You seem a wee bit precious to me Dan. As I said to the waste of oxygen Dorothy, there are quite a few folk on here I don’t have any time for, or increasingly any respect for. I don’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut if they’re butt hurt about it, particularly given some of the abuse the moon howlers in here are happy to dole out themselves.

    If people directly address me, I’ll answer assuming I have the time an inclination. As WoS winds down I”ll increasingly find better things to do: I’m hardly alone in that recently. There are quite a few others I just ignore as a matter of course, just because I regard them as lost causes, or too irritating to engage with. Anyone else is of course free to do the same with my contributions: it’s a free country after all [cue moon howler protestations that it ISN’T a free country because *reasons/Great Satan/vaccine conspiracy/climate change denial/defeatist nativist ethno nationalism excuse du jour].

    I’ll probably just add you to the James Che category of those without reason not worth arguing with: we’ll both be the better for it I suspect? Buh bye now!

  69. Hugh Jarse says:

    The gap between virtually the length of Embra city bypass, and the existing city limits is one vast private housing site. Tens of thousands of houses, easily a hundred thousand new residents by the time you add in large developments at Niddrie,Shawfair and Millerhill.

    If you lived in some select parts of England, perhaps with a valuable house, say in an area of relatively rapid demographic change, wouldn’t you consider the charms of Auld Reekie, Perthshire, East Fife, Inverness & the Highlands…
    We even have WiFi!
    Of course you would.

  70. robbo says:

    Acht Robert . It’s not all bad. In Sturgeon’s utopia they’ll be no need for “Man and Woman” sure enough.

    Here’s a wee cheerie Sunday afternoon song to get you in the mood for our impending doom. The guys were well ahead of their time .Never did the think it would start now or 2025 instead of 2525 eh!

  71. James says:

    Ah. La Ellis is back. Once again twisting other’s words and touting his Arms Industry agenda.

  72. Haagsehighlander says:

    Robert Hughes@12.46
    Was watching T.a.S.P.
    There,s The Crown and there,s The Hill part of the Crown,top of Raining and Market steps above town centre.
    The art work in my opinion was never needed,that was the only “beachpart” on the north side of The Ness and right by The Islands?.When younger myself and pals used to go all the way down the river on tractor inner tubes,i suppose we,d have been seen by some as an eyesore,but it was brilliant. But totally agree on the graffitti,they,ve made something bad, look worse IMHO.

  73. robbo says:

    Remember in the gender woo hoo world everyone will be called “Sheila or Bob” Just take yir pick no need to look through baby name books as you’ll be from a test tube anyhow, not a womb.

  74. Hatuey says:

    “What if , given humankind’s inability/unwillingness to have less children , such extreme measures as clandestine infertility-producing drugs will in future times be seen as a necessary and prescient decision ?”

    Well, my solution is to genetically engineer people so that they get smaller and smaller over a few generations and ultimately end up about the same size as action men dolls.

    I just think it would be more fun.

  75. Robert Hughes says:


    Hahaha . Genius !! then everyone on the planet could , at some point in their lives , be considered annoying wee c–ts by , well , other wee c–nts

  76. Andy Ellis says:

    @James 1.23 pm

    Arms industry agenda? Really…? How d’you figure…?

    That’s hilarious. Do tell what you think that agenda is. It’ll be the biggest laugh since I was variously accused of being a Sturgeonite stooge and Britnat entryist.

  77. John Main says:

    @Republicofscotland 31 October, 2021 at 12:50 pm

    It’s not at all difficult to find out the origin of the phrase “the Great Satan” but for those who are perhaps exceptions to that rule, I can advise the phrase was coined by Iranian mullah Ayatollah Khomeini.

    That’s one and the same Ayatollah Khomeini who speaks so eloquently in opposition to democracy, diversity, women’s rights, human rights, etc. etc.

    The same Ayatollah Khomeini who acts as a poster boy still for the kind of people who like to blow our kids to bits at concerts.

    It is specifically and precisely because of those associations with unpleasant, bigoted, genocidal individuals that normal, rational, balanced people run a mile from somebody like you who seems to think it is a phrase that can be bandied about in civilised discourse.

  78. Dan says:

    Andy Ellis says: at 1:11 pm

    I’m not obliged to interact with your personal hobby horse, nor to find them germane to the discussions at hand. It’s patently true that many of the issued you raise about rural problems are issues around the world: they’re not unique to Scotland. That doesn’t make them less important, or that they can’t be discussed, but I’m not obliged to interact with you on them, or to give them the same head space as you obviously do.

    And yet again an onslaught of derogatory personal slants in your post.
    But ignoring that as usual as you’re well off the money with your assertions, and instead responding to the quoted section:
    The rural issues matter was just one amongst many of subject that could have been discussed, and it is not my sole personal hobby horse.
    The sustainability of communities is an important issue for all that live in them. Just because a roaster such as I happens to be one of the individuals contributing btl on this aspect doesn’t mean it isn’t worth discussing.
    You state you have no time for much on here these days yet you’re still one of the most prominent btl posters…
    All those screeds of words and you wouldn’t or can’t offer any of your supposed amazing knowledge and insight on the worth of the idea of a concerted public campaign putting the wedge issue of Self ID to our elected officials to put them under the spotlight and expose their positions.
    And that was prior to Scot Goes Pop’s recent polling stats revealing (pretty much as we knew) that show how little support the Self ID policy has amongst the wider electorate. You waffled that it is a single issue so not important in the scheme of things.

    Just how can any progress towards Indy be made without challenging the embedded clique that are stalling the process, if all these single issues that could be used to leverage against them are of no worth or off limits?

  79. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Main 2.30 pm

    Word! Not I’m sure that our very own Wolfie Smith will be listening.

    Imagine actually meeting these zoomers and trying to have a rational conversation with folk who thing casual use of the Great Satan is appropriate.

    Talk about stains on the independence movement….

  80. John Main says:

    @Robert Hughes – 31 October, 2021 at 12:48 pm

    Living proof of my suspicion that if Councillors have some money to spend, and they can’t think of anything useful to spend it on, then they will spend it on crap instead.

    A single-ended bridge. A pier without room on the end for a kiosk selling ice creams. An overpass over nothing.

    The aerial view shows it does not even go out into the river far enough for there to be deep water at the end. So useless as a diving board for adventurous kids on a hot day.

    My Inversneckie relative who has been waiting months to see a specialist in Raigmore will have a view even more extreme than mine.

  81. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 2.35 pm

    Last interaction, because you’re just no longer worth the effort:

    “Just how can any progress towards Indy be made without challenging the embedded clique that are stalling the process..”

    By voting them out. The rest of it is just window dressing. Single issues won’t win or lose us independence. Entertaining moon howlers who think using terms like Great Satan is remotely acceptable won’t win us independence, it’ll allow folk to tar the whole movement with the extremist brush.

    Those folk, and those pandering to them, are as big an obstacle to achieving indy as the britnats, the MSM and Sturgeonite gradualists.

  82. Robert Hughes says:

    John Main

    Aye , well , that argument- more urgent priorities – can always be made and is of course a valid one .

    My impression is that having been granted city status ( still feels like a small town to me , but wtf ) the City Fathers ( if that term is not now criminal to use ) decided they wanted Inverness to be like the big guys further south and commissioned that work to reflect it’s status as capital of the Highlands .

    It’s not the Sagrada Familia , obv , then again Sneckville is not Barcelona .

    I’m not blown-away by it artistically but it’s no bad either .

    Faint praise . better than none I suppose

  83. Dan says:

    Andy Ellis says: at 3:02 pm

    By voting them out.

    And just how is that going to happen if the electorate aren’t made aware and informed by activists that the politicians and and Parties they have previously been voting for aren’t actually all that they seem.
    Are you waiting for the BBC and MSM to do it aye…
    It’s clear you harbour much disdain for many long term Indy activists that have put in masses of their time actually interacting with the diverse public over the years. Your intolerant and overly hostile internet based “campaigning” endeavours amount to fuck all in the scheme of things.
    But hey, now you’re back in Auld Reekie, maybe you can get out in amongst the punters and chip away at enlightening and convincing more folks that Indy is the best way forward. So crack on lad.
    NB. Just a heads up that it’s likely many won’t hold the same views as you and some might not even be vaccinated! 😉

  84. Republicofscotland says:

    “The same Ayatollah Khomeini who acts as a poster boy still for the kind of people who like to blow our kids to bits at concerts.”

    John Main.

    He’s dead, he died in 1989, and no matter what Iranian leaders have done before or after the US regime change, the countries atrocities will never ever match those of the USA’s, not even close I should add.

    From the annexing of Hawaii in 1898 right through to the 2014 US sponsored coup of Ukraine, and beyond, the trail of bloodshed and dead bodies caused by US actions and its prompted allies, (excluding the two-world wars) either directly or indirectly is just staggering.

  85. Republicofscotland says:

    For the trendy young BritNat about town.

  86. Scott says:

    I see Mr Lonely-Naepals is doing that thing again…slags off those he can’t form a decent argument against while adding those who nominally agree with him to his Xmas card list.

    (Nobody is coming to your 60th, you pathetic, angry wanker)

  87. Republicofscotland says:

    The English donkey is braying again, there’s a lot of hot air going about right now.

  88. James Che. says:

    Gee wiz that meanie verbally abusive hate crime Man who is going to stop interacting with most of us on here has no self awareness does he ?

    “The whole world can’t be wrong and only one be right” As the old saying goes.

    According to Prince Charming The Scottish independence people’s are all wrong. Stupid, moon howlers, You group of unintelligent knuckle draggers from Scotland are all going against me it’s not fair, I am gaining more enemies than friends in the independence community, boohoo.
    I not playing any more cos I ain’t talking to you,

    Meanwhile only one verbally abusive man is coming close to showing a reportable repeatable pattern of abuse towards others on a regular basis enough to be considered hate crime material,

    It’s always wise to print out the abuse you have received over months to prove the pattern in case that persons last resort is to try threaten anyone.
    Something I always do.

  89. Andy Ellis says:

    @James Che 4.16 pm

    Aw mate: “The Scottish independence people’s are all wrong. Stupid, moon howlers”. Naw….not all of them, they’re just over represented here by you and your clueless posse. You and them a tiny fraction of the movement: the ones the rest of us point and laugh at.

    Hate crime…? Don’t make me laugh. You’re kinda hilarious when you’re not banging on ad nauseam with inanities about the Treaties of Union.

  90. Hugh Jarse says:

    Bella Caledonia is the place for self appointed intellectuals with vision problems (head up own arse) Mr Ellis.
    I’m sure that you would get a better quality of ‘debate’ there. As you know.

    Did they kick you out?
    Small fish in a Small pond problems?

  91. Andy Ellis says:

    @Aptly named 5.02 pm

    Dear God no: Mike Small and his cadres are if anything worse than the nativist & “Great Satan” types in here. Bella should have stuck to kultchur and refrained from giving pseuds like Pat Kane a platform. Doubtless some of the fringes of the Bella constellation will be quite on board with Great Satan narrative though.

    They’re about as relevant and as numerically significant as the moon howlers in here tho’, so we can be thankful for small mercies!

  92. Republicofscotland says:

    “US President Joe Biden has left many confused after he took an 85-car motorcade to his meeting with the Pope ahead of a massive summit on climate change.”

    The Biden administration isn’t serious about climate change, but then again I’m sure Johnson’s admin isn’t either (Cambo, the cuts to internal APD).

  93. Dan says:

    One ponders if there’s actually anyone in the YES Movement in Scotland that meets the acceptable standards and campaigning criteria as defined by he who no longer interacts with me…

  94. Ebok says:

    robbo @ 7.16am
    Having been kicked into the long grass re cop26, our much-loved leader will no doubt move swiftly to plan B so that she can still make full use of the designer wardrobe bought specially for the occasion.
    With a faithful media at her beck and call, there will be the familiar daily photo shoots, headline articles in Scottish ‘news’papers, and ‘beeb’ film footage, creating the illusion (north of the Solway Firth) that a Scottish leader is playing a central role in a world event.

    Elsewhere, the apparent belief upthread that disparaging comments could, in the absence of the Rev, add to WoS discussions is misguided, so it’s disappointing to see very knowledgeable contributors spend so much of Wings endgame time denouncing each other over non-Scottish issues that have no relevance to plebs like me, and may not have much impact on decision making in China, US, Russia, Brazil, India, Iran, ……Andorra, or the Cook Islands.

    Finally, thanks to all for the tutorials. I’ve learned so much about what goes on in Scottish politics; from the Rev’s articles, Chris’s drawings, and links to Bloggs that have been included in comments, nearly all of which have been about Scotland, have a direct bearing on the kind of country we are in danger of becoming, and deserving of a much wider audience.
    I will miss this site a lot, so, during the time that is left for WoS, please, remember the raison d’être.

  95. John Main says:

    @RepublicOfScotland 3:45 pm

    “(Iran’s) atrocities will never, ever match that of the USA’s, not even close”

    Aw come on, Republic, even you must see you’re taking mince, unless you really can tell the future, in which case predict the next roll-over numbers and gift your millions to Alba.

    I think I’ll wait to see how the Iranian nuclear bomb project goes and if they can make good on their vows to wipe Israel from the map before placing my bets on who tops the atrocities score.

    Ebok has it right, “remember the raisin d’etre”, to which I will just add that the mythical and increasingly unlikely Independent Scotland will have to choose its allies like every other country in the world. You would be content to see us making common cause with the likes of Venezuela, Cuba, the PRC and Iran. I have more faith in the common sense of the Scots.

  96. Andy Ellis says:

    One ponders if there’s any of the moon howling fraternity in here with the self awareness to realise that they represent a tiny minority of folk in either the Yes movement or the broader Scottish population?

    As John Main points out the Scots have more common sense than to fall for the snake oil being pedalled by the deplorable basket of ethno nationalists, nativists, anti-vaxxers and opponents of the Great Satan who sadly infest the BTL comments here.

  97. Dan says:

    @ A**Y E***s at 8.38pm

    Ha ha! Just when you said you were out, I pull you back in…

    That will be the same Scots that had the common sense to just piss away 1.1 million 2nd votes on the SNP with the stellar Both Votes SNP strategy, and enable them to implement Self ID and Hate Crime Acts with the assistance of the Greens.
    Yeah, we can rest easy and Indy is a certainty now what with our future being in the safe hands of such common sense filled Scots…

  98. James Che. says:

    I don’t remember mentioning your name,
    Must be a complex thing.

  99. President Xiden says:

    +++++++CLIMATE EMERGENCY UPDATE++++++++ the latest emergency is that Greta arrived in Glasgow and no one was really there to greet her . What do we do? Quick,throw a crowd consisting of press and police officers around her to create the impression that she was mobbed on arrival and we get our headline of ‘Gretamania’. Drinks all round. S5ay tuned for more ++++++CLIMATE EMERGENCY UPDATES++++++++

  100. sarah says:

    @ Ebok: “remember the raison d’etre of this site”. Hear, hear.

  101. Dan says:

    A wee reminder of just how susceptible the “common sense” filled Scottish electorate are to the influences and control of established power as and when they decide and feel the need to wield it against any arising threat that challenges their position.

    That the figures in that ^^^ article could be so quickly reduced to ultimately yield less than 2% vote share highlights where real power lies.
    Then take a look at the stats in this article, along with the recent Scot Goes Pop poll, and understand this highly divisive and emotive issue can and will be so easily weaponised against any Party/ies thinking of seriously challenging that same power.

    That folk still don’t seem to have the tactical foresight to deal with this issue sooner rather than later is a concern.

  102. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Yi’ken, if some contributors on here would refrain from calling other contributors “moon howlers”, or referencing “the great satan” both because they’re not in agreement with what is posted by others, we could use that energy expended to work out a way to convert the required number of Scots to change from “Don’t know” or “No” to “YES” for independence.

    What is more important – scoring virtual points over other contributors on here, or achieving independence?

    Use the info that is available to convert “others” to the idea that independence would be “a good thing”.

    It won’t be done via this blog – it needs the info spread by word of mouth, street stalls, etc. IE, it needs feet on the pavie, talking to neighbours, work colleagues and so on.

    Some contributors on here seem to be content with scoring points off others, rather than promoting the concept of independence in the wider community.

    Get the info at those sites stuck in your brain so you have the answer to anyone who thinks that the Union is good for Scotland.

    No point in just moon-howling at other contributors here.

  103. Al-Stuart says:

    Dear Stuart,

    Thankyou for all the work, blood, sweat and tears that you have invested into this website over many years of your life.

    May the scars on your back, your heart and your soul from the efforts heal well.

    We are minutes from midnight bringing in November 2021 when it has been mentioned your tidying up will be finalised.

    Nicola Sturgeon will be voted out of office. That is inevitable and inexorable. By which time, my hope is the Scottish people will have her number as so eloquently highlighted by yourself on 31st January 2020…

    Stuart, I suspect that after a decent rest and time away from the Woke-infested and Woke-stolen Scottish Government, you will have the notion to return online.

    Until then my friend…

    Should auld acquaintance be forgot
    And never brought to mind?
    Should auld acquaintance be forgot
    And days of auld lang syne?

    For auld lang syne, my dear
    For auld lang syne
    We’ll tak a cup o’ kindness yet
    For days of auld lang syne.

    We twa hae run about the braes
    And pu’d the gowans fine
    But we’ve wander’d mony a weary fit
    Sin days of auld lang syne.

    We twa hae paidl’d i’ the burn
    Frae morning sun till dine
    But seas between us braid hae roar’d
    Sin days of auld lang syne.

    For auld lang syne, my dear
    For auld lang syne
    We’ll tak a cup o’ kindness yet
    For days of auld lang syne.

    And surely ye’ll be your pint-stowp
    And surely I’ll be mine
    And we’ll tak a cup o’ kindness yet
    For auld lang syne.

    And there’s a hand, my trusty fiere
    And gie’s a hand o’ thine
    And we’ll tak a right gude-willy waught
    For auld lang syne.

    For auld lang syne, my dear
    For auld lang syne
    We’ll tak a cup o’ kindness yet
    For auld lang syne.

    For auld lang syne, my dear
    For auld lang syne
    We’ll tak a cup o’ kindness yet
    For auld lang syne.

  104. Al-Stuart says:


    If Dougie wass here, he would tell you…

  105. James says:

    “…Scots have more common sense than to fall for the snake oil being pedalled by the deplorable basket of ethno nationalists, nativists, anti-vaxxers and opponents of the Great Satan who sadly infest the BTL comments here”.

    But despite that common sense can fall for the “national Broadcaster’s” lies regarding
    “subsidy junkies” sending £6,000,0000 per day south,
    the “national deterrent” of nuclear bombs parked 30 miles from Glasgow,
    the Scots being a “verminous race” as published in the verse by ‘our’ ‘Prime Minister’ that we never voted for…
    But, hey, Andy Ellis says none of this matters, everything’s fine.

  106. Hatuey says:

    Two things.

    1) the idea that anything said in here btl might negatively influence a referendum that looks like it will probably not take place for several years (at best) is deluded madness on acid.

    2) those defending the Great Satan’s record in comparison to other countries need to come of with some sort of yardstick because as it stands you’ve provided nothing to back up your position (your feelings don’t count, and neither does just shouting crap about moral equivalence over and over).

    That’s all.

  107. Tackety Beets says:

    Thank you Al-Stuart.
    Just what was needed.

    It’s been a roller-coaster & sadly a huge let down.

    Let’s hope we can reconvene soon.

    Until then, take care, stay safe.


    Big smiley.

  108. Derek says:

    “…smertest poat in the tred…”

  109. Dorothy Devine says:

    Al-Stuart, thanks for the greet! Now that you have started me on the Dougie route I’m off to play my favourites.

    I kind of take folk as I find them and when they say they have no time to play ‘whack a mole’ with their inferiors, I assume that means a welcome end to their insulting input – it appears I am wrong.

    I am also wondering if one has become two.I now have to scroll past a greater amount of effluent.

    BDTT , hoping to be there flying the flag as I don’t think it is a waste of time – unlike others.

  110. Effigy says:

    I watched Sturgeon on breakfast news this morning.
    She has more bags under her eyes than the lost property office.

    She is apologising for having gas and oil supplies but lying down to
    establish Boris is in charge of it.

    She did say Scotland isn’t participating in COP26 as we are not an independent country
    but that was it?

    What an opportunity in front of goal to attack the absurdity of this Sovereign nation hosting the event not being permitted by Boris to have any form of participation.

    For me she is totally compromised by Westminster.
    Pay lip service to Independence but do nothing constructive toward it.

    Wish AUOB marchers numbering 100,00 again could surround the carbon spouting bean feast site
    drowning it with Saltires.

    What chance of achieving anything when Zoom calls would have prevented all those flights, squad cars, ship hotels and congested roads from being imposed on us.

  111. Robert Graham says:

    Well I hope yer all watching the English PM welcoming the great and the good to his country

    A country that hasn’t voted for a Tory Government since the 1950s

    Not a Saltire or Jock in sight the only thing Scottish is the limo drivers and even then a few look pretty suspect

    Aye the greatest wee country on the planet and on its knees where it belongs what’s not to like eh

  112. Captain Yossarian says:

    COP26 could have been held in Belfast, Cardiff, Birmingham or anywhere else. Folk attending don’t give two hoots about Saltires and the Holyrood fandango. Most folk in Scotland don’t give two hoots either. The loss of WoS is a bigger loss to thinking Scots than the loss of Holyrood would be.

  113. Robert Graham says:

    Well Princess Nicola ain’t even getting a chance to serve the tea while Bawjaws bumpes his gums talking a load of piss in front of the neatly folded St George’s Cross.

    Yep like watching a party in your hoose through your front window a fkn disgusting disgrace how many times do you need to be pissed on before you realise it not fkn rain

  114. Confused says:

    I see the Glorious Leader has promised NOT TO TALK about Independence at COP26 – like it was some kind of burden and disappointment to her; will the unionists reciprocate?

    Every time Nicola Sturgeon appears on telly now she looks – AGONISED – writhing in torment, suffering for all our sins, like some medieval saint, so holy, so pure, they can physically feel the passion of Christ, the scourge of the whip … it’s all performance – she suffers, dying inside for all of us, but what can she do? (! … SHUTUP AT THE BACK THERE!) – “Saint Nicola of Devolution”; she was just on today, agonising about climate change, next bulletin she will be agonising about COVID; her calender is full of entries 3.00pm AGONISING (COVID) …

    COP26 will be a festival of handwringing, dogooding, street theatre for the middle class, a hug in for idiots (all with the latest iphones, the acme of consumer capitalism, and full of exotic metals only obtainable in war ravaged shitholes); disruption for ordinary Glaswegians, and horror of horrors, loyal orange-men will be banned from walking-the-queens-high-way because of road closures, but pride marches will go ahead. The extinction clowns will block ambulances and claim the moral high ground (and will likely be violently attacked by Glaswegians and yet, protected by the Police, who they despise) – and a r3tarded little girl will preach at us all (get a boyfriend luv), reading it off an autocue (so her mom can get her into harvard) – this is a “psychological event” of no real world significance, but much socially – the purpose of it all seems to be “BLAME THE POOR” (for an economic system they did not create, nor have any control over) about using too many plastic bags, and generally softening us all up for whatever is planned (which is fuckall to do with climate change).

    Climate change seems to be real; the true extent of it is not known. A serious discussion of “the science” of climate change, Sabine H and an Oxford Prof –

    – you can argue around the edges, but since we only have one planet, the precautionary principle applies, best to “do something”; the cause of this is plainly the economic system (an unstable juggernaut which requires constant growth for stability), “global capitalism” whatever you want to call it, and the people who control it are, let’s just call them “global elites” (they own the corporations, the private equity, the merchant banks which control it all, and have the politicians on their payroll) – they are the people who should take the blame as when “they decide to do things, they get done”. They were told way back in 1970 in “LIMITS TO GROWTH” they were driving the bus over a cliff, and they cynically said – “sure, but we will jump out at the last minute (and blame the passengers)”; every single one of these oligarch family dynasties will have a “bolt hole” (New Zealand has been popular of late) in pristine, self sufficient, natural countryside (with an airstrip capable of a Gulfsream 5), far away from any of the chaos they have created – this is the trouble with the rich, they have no “skin in the game” and can just “buy their way out” of any situation.

    The blame lies squarely on these bastards who could have decided among themselves to make an “orderly walk to the exits” – wean ourselves off the fossil fuels, and could have done this at no loss to themselves, not even on paper. The little people can write to their MPs, vote in elections, protest uselessly – and be ignored, or wanked off by cheap platitudes – but these rich pricks have the PM/PREZ on their speeddial, they don’t wait in a phonequeue for 40 minutes either; the ability to e.g. phone Johnson in the middle of the night, scream obscenities at him and tell him he “better THINK about your future once out of office …” – can work wonders.

    – so Total knew, but if they knew, so did everyone else; this is why these high level shindigs, Davos, Bilderberg etc are arranged – so the people who matter can be told what is really happening.

    The USA and its out of control war machine, the Indians, the Saudis and the Chinese (all locked together as one interdependent system) will do precisely, nothing, about climate change, so the whole thing is a waste of time; but it’s not really – it will be used to “guilt trip” us all into just going along with the next tranche of authoritarianism (vaccine passports, social credit scores, blue check marks, veganism, restrictions on movement, association, employment …) – the new fascism will be green and will all be about “saving the planet” (not really!) – they are laying down “memes” on us, all the time, propagandising their next moves … the “useless eaters” will “own nothing and be happy” in the “great reset” just in time for “the singularity”. The youth in the most misguided act of “rebellion” ever all sign up to this corporate agenda because it indulges their social ideals of “wokeness” (another psy op).

    – and the biggest joke of all is : when I was a kid we were all worried about a NEW ICE AGE (long overdue BTW)

    “guilt tripping” seems to be the most powerful social control mechanism of recent times; this guy attempts to join the dots –

    the basic attitude of the rich is : we fucked up, so YOU have to pay for it (cf 2008 “bailouts for us, austerity for you”) – it stinks, and should not be tolerated.

    – while denouncing this all as a pile of crap, a useless propaganda event serving elite agendas, we should either ignore it all OR – seize it, as a massive opportunity; Nikki won’t mention independence, but FUCK HER – the indy movement will go around, and over the top of her if necessary; if you do want to win, then you have to TAKE OPPORTUNITIES … everyone will be there, pushing their agenda, so why shouldn’t we??


    – if nothing else, we should embarrass the shit out of Nikki; did you see her in Vogue? – what a state! In her mind she is in a political version of Destiny’s Child with Hillary and Angelina Jolie. This is the same level of blind hubris which makes hairy arsed trannies think they are anime princesses. Or 60 year old women show their arse crack to the world, in the papers; Madonna was at least a “piece of ass” in her time, though.

    But even Vogue are not fooled by Nikki – cop this :

    Asked what would happen if No 10 keeps refusing, she says her government “will proceed to make the preparations here, and Boris Johnson will have to decide whether he’s going to take action to try to stop it”.

    THE THREAT SOUNDS HOLLOW. The First Minister likes to paint herself as level-headed, and hints like these SOUND MORE OUT OF CHARACTER THAN ANYTHING

    Ha! – she cannot even con a fashion “journalist” in a glossy rag.

    – it’s 50 years too late to do anything much about climate change, so make conservative assumptions and plan your life, hint – the cold, northern lands are the place to be. England (south east) will sink beneath the waves, while Scotland will rise (and enjoy a climate like that of southern France in the 70s); razor wire and machine guns at Carter Bar and we’re done. I live 50M above sea level, so “what, me worry?” Turns out nice again.

    We shall just have to suffer the disgusting pillage of the tories as they go hell for leather to pump every last drop of oil from OUR SEAS; it looks like we are destined to receive not one drop of this, probably the world’s second greatest natural prize. So be it, we still have everything else we need.

    Prepare for the slow, steady surge of ever more – ENGLISH WANKERS – coming up here, over the years; I would like to see them banned from buying property and perma-banned, them and their descendants from ever having a vote, on anything, but no one has the balls to do this; adjusting the voting rules in line with UN norms is the most we can do, or get away with. They are not “New Scots”, they are the enemy and no nationalist should have to humiliate himself by “selling the case for indy” to these infiltrators.

    COP26 is a CARNIVAL OF WANKERS – wankers, wankers, everywhere, high and low, important and mundane, left and right – engaged in a pointless spectacle of trying to prove they exist, their lives matter and what they do is important; but its all really about the selfies, the likes and the uploads. Mine’s a latte!

  115. Ottomanboi says:

    More than ever it is clear that Scotland’s freedom will not be brought about through reliance on politicians and the ballot box. That road map simple leads to dead ends or pointless promenades in the theme park.
    Scottish nationalism, as concept, is a threat, sadly Scottish nationalists, as advocates, aren’t.
    They simply are not scary enough.

  116. Captain Yossarian says:

    Regarding your last paragraph – she’s already had her photograph taken with Christiane Amanpour of CNN and with Greta. Mission accomplished and it’s not even mid-day.

  117. Andy Ellis says:

    @Ottomanboi 1.01pm

    How will it be brought about then?

  118. Robert Graham says:

    Eh don’t hold back Confused

    Ha Ha tell us what you think don’t sit on the fence now

    SKY News are presently in the middle of a Hollywood production of Apocalypse Now coming to a street near you just to raise awareness of the imminent catastrophe accompanied by a mournful music score,

    Up next on stage andis Charlie the heiress to the biggest fortune on this planet , lecturing people about waste no shit this waste of fkn space lecturing anyone , his lips are moving but I can’t hear what he’s saying it’s all background noise just like the rest of the liars who profess their love of mankind , fk me it’s like pantomime season without the jokes

    Oh Nicola another tea and a orange juice for table 2 and make it quick dear

  119. Hatuey says:

    Confused, I agree with about 98% of that. A truly excellent comment, on the whole.

    There’s more to it than a rise in sea levels. We seem to be seeing increased volcanic activity, earthquakes, floods, and fires.

    Covid-19, a relatively minor disease in the great scheme of things, revealed how precarious global supply chains and production were.

    Everything seems to exist on the brink of collapse and you can’t help but wonder how chaotic life might get if something slightly more disruptive than covid-19 came along.

  120. Robert Hughes says:

    Confused @ 12.47

    You’ve adopted the wrong moniker my friend .

    There is absolutely nothing * confused * about your thinking , feeling and perceiving .

    A brilliant post . Take a bow compadre .

  121. Andy Ellis says:

    @James 11.30 pm

    “But, hey, Andy Ellis says none of this matters, everything’s fine.“

    I neither said nor believe any such thing. There are answers to all those issues. Changes wouldn’t even necessarily have to be dependent on achieving independence, even if actually becoming independent makes them easier.

    The point is rather that the voting public as a whole – and particularly the relatively small section or % of former No voters we need to convert – aren’t likely to be fertile campaigning territory for people banging on about the Great Satan, or who advocate nativist criteria for being able to vote, or who think COVID vaccines are a hoax. People who oppose nuclear weapons, NATO, EU membership or the monarchy might not like the fact that the majority of voters are multilateralists, pro NATO, pro EU and pro monarchy but it remains the case.

    Of course we can try to change those opinions and may do so with some success, but the idea that the fringe zoomers in here banging on about the Great Satan and their other hobby horse conspiracy theories are doing anything else but damage the Yes movement (apart from give some of us an opportunity to point and laugh at them) is risible.

    More people will (hopefully?) change their views from No to Yes I’m coming months and years. We certainly haven’t seen much movement in the past few years. If they do it will be as a result of a range of different factors. Anyone who thinks the moon howlers in here are convincing “soft No” voters with their arguments can be safely written off as a fantasist.

  122. Robert Graham says:

    Surprised all you Celtic supporters haven’t made much of the BBC report about the banks of the Clyde being patrolled by punters dressed in blue and armed to the teeth and not being pursued by the polis .

    Now that’s discrimination ha ha

    Phone yer MP

  123. James Che. says:


    Well said,
    It is all about the great reset button fo reverse the standard of living for the middle and lower classes from the extremely rich classes as is covid.

    They still use fossil fuels.

    From jetting of to holidays abroad, personal fossil fuel big vehicles. To fires and stove in their houses and no masks.

    Mr GOve and MrMogg both had fires burning and fire places in their homes in the background when they were on Skype an during interviews and television covering the lockdown period,
    And royals were travelling up to Scotland during Covid lockdowns.

    It truly is a case of making sure we do not continue to climb in health and wealth to their quality of life,

    Reset the button and build back better, FOR WHOM.

  124. Willie says:

    I see Sturgeon is referring to herself as a leader among the devolved nations.

    A second tier regional leader she undoubtedly is now declaring herself to be. No wonder there is a picture going round the Internet showing the world leaders sitting in a room debating COP26 whilst the urchin Sturgeon is seen outside with her face against the window looking in.

  125. Breeks says:

    Hatuey says:
    1 November, 2021 at 1:32 pm

    There’s more to it than a rise in sea levels. We seem to be seeing increased volcanic activity, earthquakes, floods, and fires…

    I keep thinking of Yellowstone Park, and the now famous tropic cascade which followed the reintroduction of wolves, a generally positive and life affirming cascade which resulted in the rivers physically changing course.

    My fear is that climate change is going to bring it’s own “tropic cascades” in reverse, where the “headline” event is only just the beginning, and we see negative consequences and effects “cascade” into widening spheres of impact.

    The Yellowstone Tropic Cascade defied prediction. They weren’t sure what was going to happen, nor what the extent of the impact would be. The tragedy of rising sea levels won’t be understood until we reach the end of it’s cascade, when the dust settles, by which time it’s already too late.

    Maybe settled dust is all we’ll have left.

    Mother Nature is the true master of layered multi-tasking. Humanity just seems adept at insatiable plundering and screwing things up. Humanity is the dangerous and radical component destabilising nature’s equilibrium, and it’s humanity which needs to start living within it’s means.

    Sadly I see zero sign of that happening. COP26 is just making some people feel better, but I don’t see it delivering anything profound or radical enough to make a difference.

  126. robertknight says:

    Don’t comment much on here these days, but @Confused was a read worthy of a “thank you”.

    Sturgeon & Co. seem to function in the hope that the Indy movement in Scotland simply slips into a persistent vegetative state, much like that in Quebec; the patient having just enough lifeblood to sustain the SNP vampires who queue up to feed at election time, but existing for no other purpose… The Dear Leader casting herself in the role of Armand in a redux of Le Théâtre des Vampires.

    Sorry… a Hallow’een theme would’ve been better yesterday.

  127. wullie says:

    well said. You should have a peek at or go to the guys YouTube channel, some very interesting information and nice to hear a different point of view.
    Also if you can look on YouTube at Dr Patrick Moore joint founder of Greenpeace.

  128. robbo says:

    Wur gonna need a bigger boat!

  129. James Che. says:

    We have had seven years to convert the soft NOs into maybe’s or YES’s.

    If the Covid and climate change mantras of, “ Do as we say, Not as we do “,
    from all the politicians and world leaders or the royals flouncing and breaking every rule or moral code has not helped change their minds, you would think protecting their children, and women folk, or protecting their free speech, and being able to see wether they are the proud parents of a new baby girl or baby boy,
    The wrong kind of education in schools.
    Or the mess of Britain and Brexit,
    Or the close down of the NHS with no snivelling doctors on high pay to consult with for hip or knee operations, or cancer ops and treatments would do it, BUT NO .

    YOU WILL NOT EVER change the soft NO’s in a month of Sunday’s, They are part of the Great Britain system.
    The time for The NS mantra of changing the soft NO’s has passed by.
    This nativist basket of deplorables have to lead, where idiots are failing us.

  130. James Che. says:

    If you are standing in the battle field of climate change, you are in the wrong field,

    If you were standing in the field of independence first, and laying your climate change sword down at your feet for a year or two.
    we may find a more middle of the road answer to climate change in Scotland, when we can create a balanced, look after the planet and the people attitude.

    As for rising sea levels and scaremongering, anyone whom knows history or keeps their eye on science knows the following.

    We have had sea level changes before we became industrialised,
    If anyone wishes to checked on the history of place names, you will find names of ports nowadays well inland,
    This is because the sea levels used to be higher as recent as the Roman period to pretty much the dark age in history.
    And for those that do not wish to delve too deeply into history, a more lighter version can be found
    In archaeologists, scientists and map readers in the Famous tv Programme Time Team whom came to the same conclusion while excavating sites.
    And the Romans’ recorded a more colder, wetter climate two thousand years ago in Britain.

    I do not deny the climate is changing, it has always fluctuated. Always changed.
    Otherwise the ice would not have melted to a more tolerant temperature for people to live Britain and a good portion of the rest of the world.
    But then it fluctuated to tropical in Britain as fossils prove.
    We had drastic climate change in the Middle Ages( the dark age ) due to the suspicions of volcanoes effecting and pollution of ash.
    We also went through dramatic climatic change in the 1700s, where people and animals starved to death due to crop failures everywhere,

    Those that push the climate change mantra on us nowadays and selectively leave out the rest of climate change history usually have investment in doing so.

  131. Ottomanboi says:

    As i wrote.
    «Scottish nationalism, as concept, is a threat, sadly Scottish nationalists, as advocates, aren’t.
    They simply are not scary enough»
    They are not «scary», because they lack ruthless determination and will.
    However, I leave you to join the dots. The world is not exactly short of exemplars for comparative study.
    For a country that has sent its sons and daughters around the world and rejected Brexit its citizens can at times appear rather parochial and conceitedly exceptionalist, a characteristic trait of Bulldog Britishness. Truly, there are none so blind as those who choose to wear rose tinted spectacles whether in tartan or union jack frames.

  132. Republicofscotland says:

    The warhawk Biden and his twenty-plus entourage of cars, vans and ambulances heading along the M8 motorway to Glasgow.

    Biden had an eighty-plus entourage of vehicles in Italy at the G20, forget global warming this man and his travelling circus are committing ecocide all over the world without our help.

  133. Ottomanboi says:

    There have been dramatic, to employ hyperbole, climate changes in recorded history. The Nile has shifted course on numerous occasions, has not flooded owing to lack of rain in Ethiopia resulting in famine and there was savannah where there is now desert. Wildlife has changed too and was changing before the first millennium as the regional climate became drier.
    Monsoons failing in the Indian subcontinent and south east Asia predate any significant human activity and is verifiable by tree ring inspection.
    Accurate temperature data begins in 1850. Digital temperature recording is subject to short heat spikes which distort «highs». But, we are nonetheless expected to panic and venerate the eco gods and goddesses.
    Things change, like when «Scotland» was situated just below the equator.
    At that period it was thankfully not joined to England….

  134. Republicofscotland says:

    “SCOTLAND needs to play its part as a “world leader” in tackling climate change by “corralling” other states into action, Nicola Sturgeon has said.”

    Christ Sturgeon can’t even corral the missing indyfunds, nor can she deliver independence, yet she who hasn’t even got a seat at the COP26 table is spouting nonsense about compelling other real independent countries into action on climate change.

    Talk about having a giant fragile ego, it was only a matter of time on Sturgeon unleashing her look at me world and how self-important I am attitude, at the COP26, Roman Emperor Nero couldn’t come close to this megalomaniac.

  135. Republicofscotland says:

    ” No voters we need to convert –”

    Andy Ellis.

    We do not need to convert no voters, if we include a time term on residential status, on a constitutional vote.

    The time term needs to be confirmed on residential status lets say for instance ten years or more. I’m pretty confident that yes would win.

    Of course you want to throw the franchise open to every incomer and their dogs, when no other EU country would think of doing so. However we’ve covered you union winning ramblings in here before, and if you’re a indy supporter, then I’m the Commander and Chief of the Great Satan.

  136. Republicofscotland says:

    “I think I’ll wait to see how the Iranian nuclear bomb project goes and if they can make good on their vows to wipe Israel from the map before placing my bets on who tops the atrocities score.”

    John Main @8.06pm.

    John, surely even you aren’t ignorant enough to know that Iran like North Korea is creating the bomb for defence and not attack, only the Great Satan, and possibly a small tactical nuke deployed by Israel in Syria a few year back are the only two known countries to have used nukes against people, though the Little Satan still denies it possess nukes.

    Trump tried to break the JCPOA deal, and Biden has followed up on this by applying even more sanctions on Iran, which is basically war by another means.

    As for the victims of the Great Satan’s bellicose foreign policies here is but a few examples of their nefarious activities that have led to a staggering amount of deaths.

  137. Republicofscotland says:

    “Prepare for the slow, steady surge of ever more – ENGLISH WANKERS – coming up here, over the years;”


    I’m afraid that for now there’s not much we do about it, as retiring South of the Border incomers sell up and move to Scotland in their droves over half a million are here already, though I think it could be far more. The majority of them are union lovers and will sway the vote towards no like they did in 2014, that’s why its imperative in the next indyref that these folk don’t have a constitutional vote, and only those who have lived here for a fair bit of time do, infact as Professor Alf Baird says the constitutional vote should be for indigenous Scots alone as it is in say Denmark.

    If the vote were left to the likes of Mr Ellis, (who in my opinion wants Scottish independence as much as Boris Johnson does) anyone who had set foot in Scotland in their life times would get the vote, its bonkers even thinking about that line of approach if you ask me.

  138. James Che. says:


    Thanks for the additional science information.
    It is truly a scaremongering tactic of psychological warfare when governments are selective in the given all the facts to its people, to create a change of society with out fully informing the population with facts.

    To use hype without historical records. Isotope palaeontology, paleo-botany, and Dendrochronology, historical records of famines related to climate disasters even here in Britain is a false narrative.

    I refuse to take the blame on my shoulders nor have my country changed into a safari park or genetic experiment for the sake of the rich and financial powerful.

    I can guarantee I have planted and donated more trees than any politician.
    picked up more plastic rubbish than any world leader, and have had fewer holidays, or jetted myself around the world to meetings that could have been done by Skype.

    I have not dug for diamonds, oil, Precious metals or burnt large swathes of natural forests to make way for palm trees making orangutans become endangered, or shot animals for sport, nor have I quarried for minerals deep in the earth or exploded an atomic bomb.

    The climate change, the covid is to make a bigger gap between the upper echelons of society and the lower not so well off divide bigger, for they do not follow what they preach.

  139. twathater says:

    ROS here here on Andy Pandy’s allegiance to indy a more distasteful sellout and abuser it would be hard to find on WOS , what makes it more unpalatable is his constant aligning his comments with Stuart Campbell a man who has done more for the independence cause than Ellis could dream of ,but that’s just another of his attempts to gain traction and bask in the rev’s shadow
    I would compare him to Sturgeon and the sellouts in 1707 where his love for his birth country and his fellow citizens has evolved into shame and hatred , having lived so long amongst the english he has adopted and embraced their sense of exceptionalism but he is angered that he will NEVER BE english that is why he is so willing to gift Scottish citizenship to anyone who wants it , to him there is no pride in being Scottish it is worthless and he is ashamed of being Scottish . I would even hazard that Andy in his english workplace would be only to eager to laugh and demean his Scottishness when his colleagues were having JOCK laughs, much like SIR Billy Connolly , another cringer

  140. James Che. says:

    Unionist or national English or any other nationality coming to live in Scotland would not be so stupid to not vote for independence of Scotland.

    For when under present circumstances they come to live in Scotland their children and grandchildren are being educated as future sex toys for paedophilic future satisfaction.
    Where their wife’s and daughters are no longer considered of value,
    Where they won’t be allowed free speech in their homes,
    Where they will not be allowed to travel or visit.
    Where their every move will be monitored.
    Where the government acts like a totalitarian state.
    Where human rights are abused.
    And closed kangaroo courts,

    Surely they would want to be as free from this kind of existence the same as the Scots if living in Scotland. But failing their want to protect their families and human rights with free speech,
    The vote must be for those indigenous Scots whom do want to protect Scotland and its inhabitants.

  141. James Che. says:


    You mean like getting rid of political party global extremism, and suggesting people actually start thinking for themselves instead of governments paying think tanks to think for them,.

    Flipping heck, even the governments are stating they cannot think for themselves

  142. Republicofscotland says:

    Twathater @5.37pm.

    Yes, I agree with that, Mr Ellis, promotes the values of letting one and all vote in the next indyref, but he knows fine well other EU nations do not take this approach on a constitutional vote.

    Why then should we be the exception, like Mr Ellis wants, I get the feeling that he wants our next indyref to be a beacon of progression on constitutional voting, knowing fine well that by enfranchising everyone and their dog, that yes will lose, but we’ll be held in high esteem for doing so, anyone with half a brain can see that if that is your stance then you must be hoping to keep the status quo.

  143. Andy Ellis says:

    @Republicofscotland & twathater

    Your responses are much as I would have expected. Since neither of you are capable of coherent argument, you play the man rather than the ball. The Rev Stu can no doubt speak for himself if he has the stomach to read your bile laden rants, but I doubt he’d have much time for folk coming out with lines like:

    “Prepare for the slow, steady surge of ever more – ENGLISH WANKERS – coming up here, over the years;”

    If he does, then he’s not half the man I took him for and while he and I have never met, I’d lay money on his views aligning more closely with mine on most issues than with the likes of you two. I’m not and never have been ashamed of being Scots: I AM ashamed of some Scots and their attitudes, and you two provide great examples.

    A lie, however often you repeat it, never becomes the truth. The idea that you, and those who think like you, are somehow doing more for independence than I am, or indeed than others who don’t share your distasteful views is for the birds. However much inchoate screeching you indulge in, your views will never be anything more than the rantings of a fringe group of nutters derided by the mainstream movement for the moon howlers you are.

    It’s hardly a surprise that the overlaps between those espousing nativism and those spouting climate change denial and anti-vaxx conspiracy theorising are so strong. At least most of them don’t appear to have fallen for the gender woo, but that hardly excuses the rest of your moon howling unreason.

    In the meantime, I’ll be continuing to support Alba and getting involved in my local branch in the hope that it doesn’t contain too many fruit loops with views like yours. Time will tell I guess.

  144. Andy Ellis says:

    @Republicofscotland 6.15 pm

    As has been pointed out numerous times before to you and other nativist moon howlers, you’re simply factually wrong. I’ve linked before to the evidence that both in terms of current EU members, and other cases of self determination referendums since World War 2, the franchise used for the independence referendum votes was overwhelmingly residence based, not based on nationality.

    Voting in general elections or on constitutional issues AFTER independence has been achieved is a different matter. It suits the nativists to make false claims that “no other country would allow this”, but it takes a special kind of stupid to continue to assert this when it’s been demonstrated that it simply isn’t true.

    You can’t construct citizenship criteria for a vote when there is no such thing as Scottish citizenship. It’s the EXACT OPPOSITE of what has happened elsewhere. You’re entitled to your own fault assertions, but you’re not entitled to your own class of facts. It’s not abuse to point out you’re making false statements, nor does it demonstrate that I’m not a “real” nationalist, or a Sturgeonite stooge, or want the status quo.

    I’m happy to have an honest debate on the issue: that’s not possible when people like you you won’t even accept the basic facts of the situation but insist that black is white.

  145. Scott says:

    Can anyone remember that time that Mr NDLS moaned about being named as one of the ‘Cybernat 7’ in the Daily Nazi?

    Archived here >>

    The same fanny that claims a journalist from the Scottish version doorstepped him in Chichester then walked him to the train station?

    The same arsehole who created a blog to ‘protest too much’ about it?

    see here >>

    The same dick that thinks we’re all stupid and he’s the brightest man in the universe?

    Chase yourself Andy, you’re busted.

  146. James Che. says:

    We haven’t even got past Halloween but already it’s panto season at cop26.
    Neil Oliver, 30th October GBNews

  147. James Che. says:

    You know why Prince Charming is against setting a ten year residency for a vote on independence.

    Cos that would eliminate him having a vote.

  148. President Xiden says:

    ++++++Climate Emergency Update++++++++ Whilst the rest of us are being ‘encouraged’ to car share on our commute to work in order to reduce our carbon footprint and save* the planet, former Vice President Biden takes 28 gas guzzling limos to travel along the M8. 1 car between 2 or 3 for us and 28 cars between 1 for him. Let’s go Brandon.

    * saving the planet from politician and celebrity hypocrisy that is.

  149. Hugh Jarse says:

    EU citizens had a vote on Brexit?

    There’s fuck all difference between excluding them over Brexit, and non Scots over Indy.

    Alba was bound to attract duplicitous types, but a majority of good guy’s will prevail.

  150. Andy Ellis says:

    @Scott 6.36 pm

    It’s not a claim Scott, it’s a fact. You appear to have an issue with facts like most of your moon howler mates.

    Unlike you of course I’m not a cringing anonymous on line coward.

    I don’t think you’re all stupid, but a select number – sadly over represented in the BTL comments here in recent months – are essentially sentient spam. I wouldn’t have to be that bright to surpass the moon howlers in here.

    You couldn’t bust your way out of a wet paper bag Scott, still less bust anyone else.

  151. Scott says:

    Andy Ellis says:
    1 November, 2021 at 6:52 pm

    She’s not coming back, Andy. Get over it. Move on. Get a proper hobby.

  152. Hugh Jarse says:

    One post ^, so much abuse.

    Tell u wot Mr Hero, name a time and place, and this “sentient spam” will oblige.

  153. Andy Ellis says:

    @Aptly named 6.56 pm

    You’ll oblige with what Huge? Since you’re so brave, doubtless you’ll have no issue telling us your name and location so we can investigate any threats, yes?

    On you go big man…..

  154. Republicofscotland says:

    Mr Ellis @6.32pm.

    I haven’t gone through them all but most countries allow foreign residents to vote in local/parliamentary election, but on constitutional matters its reserved to citizens, either indigenous or naturalised.

  155. Dan says:

    @ twathater at 5:37 pm

    Re. Andy’s views being aligned with Rev Stu.
    Well Stu stated in a comment on the Fighting Bears post over on Barrhead Boy a while back that he had no argument with tweaking of a future franchise in relation to temporary residents.
    As many franchises use the term “Permanent Residence” to enable inclusion in a voting process, it suggests the simple matter of defining “Permanent” is required. Maybe some kind of residency criteria would need to be met.
    Andy might tell you what he thinks “Permanent” means…

  156. Republicofscotland says:

    “In the meantime, I’ll be continuing to support Alba and getting involved in my local branch”

    I wonder Mr Ellis if you even know the Alba party’s stance on constitutional matters.

    From Alba’s own website.

    “The written constitution starts from the principle that the people are sovereign in keeping with the Scottish constitutional tradition”

    That’s Scots the Alba party is talking about Mr Ellis, like I said if you support an independent Scotland, I’m the Queen of Sheba.

  157. Hugh Jarse says:

    “We” !

  158. Alec Lomax says:

    Restrictions on voting? Confining to the indigenous (including those ‘patriots’ who can’t be arsed with actually living in Scotland)?
    What next? Raising the age of voting to 18 ?

  159. Andy Ellis says:

    @RoS 7.05 pm

    *sigh* We’ve been over this before. The requirements set by independent countries for citizenship, voting in local or general elections are NOT THE SAME as the franchise for independence referendums. It’s honestly like explaining the difference between small and far away to Father Dougal.

    The table here shows the situation:

    Table 3, Franchise – pages 44-46.

    The reason none of the moon howlers like to do the work, is that it’s relatively easy to show they’re talking out of their arses.

  160. Republicofscotland says:

    James che @6.44pm.

    James that royal parasite Prince Charles and his wife Camilla, are currently enjoying a meal in Glasgow’s Westend close to or in the Kelvingrove museum.

    We know the royals interfering attitude when it comes to Scottish independence, they are definitely against it, and I’m sure Alba activist (says I tongue in cheek) Mr Ellis will correct me if I’m wrong, but the Alba party want to dump these deceitful parasites after Scottish independence, and replace them with a head of state.

  161. Scott says:

    Andy Ellis says:
    1 November, 2021 at 7:20 pm

    The requirements set by independent countries for citizenship, voting in local or general elections are NOT THE SAME as the franchise for independence referendums.

    Can’t you fucking read when pished, Andy?

    “I haven’t gone through them all but most countries allow foreign residents to vote in local/parliamentary election, but on constitutional matters its reserved to citizens, either indigenous or naturalised.” – Republicofscotland @ 7.15pm

  162. Andy Ellis says:

    @RoS 7.15 pm

    “I wonder Mr Ellis if you even know the Alba party’s stance on constitutional matters.”

    To the extent available on the member website, yes I can see what they’ve resolves so far. I can’t see any definition of the Scottish people which excludes particular categories of people….can you?

  163. Andy Ellis says:

    @Scott 7.29 pm

    I can, but you clearly can’t. The franchises used in self determination referendums BEFORE independence are not the same as criteria used AFTER independence is achieved, when citizenship of the new states is decided, and the franchises for elections are set. This really isn’t rocket science….except for you apparently.

    Read the article, then come back and apologise. I’ll wait.

  164. John Main says:

    Years ago (maybes decades ago), I used to believe we would get Independence when enough of the immigrants in Scotland decided to vote for it.

    Now I am returning to this view, meaning that not only is Andy Ellis right, but the posters who complain about the flood of newcomers are partially right also.

    Sure, the flood of new Scots are mostly Yoons right now. But that will change as they see how England continues its inexorable journey down the pan in the years to come. And at some point, when enough of them have their grannies settled here, their kids in good, middle-class jobs, etc. they will decide its time to pull the plug, flood the moat and raise the drawbridge. After all, Scotland’s empty glens, wide under-populated spaces and affordable (by English standards), desirable, country properties won’t stay that way if immigration is not eventually stopped.

    So Andy is right. Civic nationalism is the path to Scots Indy, via the inevitable choice for Yes that the New Scots will be forced to make, given time.

    No doubt some on here will complain, if it is the English incomers that swing the vote for Yes, that we wus dragged out of the UK against our will. They too will have a point, but as I have said before, if you allow immigration to go unchecked, eventually the tail starts wagging the dog.

  165. Republicofscotland says:

    Mr Ellis @7.20pm.

    Had wee look at your link, checked out the three co-authors of the paper, and it looks like its nothing more than opinion led by the three Catalan professors.

    How this would affect countries around the world on how they lay out their constitutional matters on voting is at best unclear.

    The co-authors seem predominately occupied, though not entirely, with the Catalan referendum and Spain’s actions against.

    I can’t see how this would affect say Argentina who do not give the vote to foreigners in national never mind constitutional elections.

  166. John Main says:

    @Republicofscotland 1 November, 2021 at 7:25 pm

    “the Alba party want to dump these deceitful parasites after Scottish independence, and replace them with a head of state.”

    I can’t think of anybody who I would support if they were to put themselves forwards as a candidate for Scottish Head of State. Maybes somebody could nominate somebody.

  167. Dan says:

    On Topic seeing as it’s COP26 fortnight…

    Heat pumps? Of course astute Wings commenters of the no mark, dumb arse, roaster variety were on this previously…
    I’m yer poundshop Robin McAlpine representing the neds so I am.

  168. Republicofscotland says:

    “I can’t see any definition of the Scottish people which excludes particular categories of people….can you?”

    I don’t have to Mr Ellis, “that the people are sovereign” refers to Scots, reaffirmed as late as 2018 in the House of Commons through the Claim of Right, unopposed I might add, and if you were really that keen on Scottish independence (very doubtful indeed) you’d have known what the sentence meant, I’m sure many in here know exactly what “that the people are sovereign” sentence means in Scotland, and who its aimed at.

  169. Effigy says:

    What chance of saving the planet?
    No chance.
    Bojo only does money for him and his party supporters.
    I believe he would love lots and lots of projects that come under reducing our carbon footprint
    but just as another route to filling Tory pockets with blank cheques devoid of competition.

    Biden falls asleep at the conference after landing at the wrong city airport and travelling over with all the gas guzzlers available in Scotland.

    Russia and China are not interested and India wants a target date 20 years beyond the planet’s life span.

    The chances of the better off richer nations giving the poorer countries an estimated $ Trillion
    to combat their use of fossil fuels are higher than me winning the lottery without buying a ticket.

    Camila it seems has ugly Prince Charlie’s ear and one has put one’s point of view to him so that he
    May address us at the opening speeches.

    Nice to know a Royal bit on the side has a voice at these things that Scotland can only dream of.

    Let’s hope no one gets injured when the mighty international corporations fight to offer their Billions
    to Charles renewable ideas.

    Nothing more savage on earth than man’s inhumanity to man.

  170. Andy Ellis says:

    @RoS 7.48 pm

    So you “had a wee look”, but haven’t read or understood. Stun us wi’ another.

    The table isn’t opinion, it’s a list of referendums and shows what the franchise used in each was. It proves that – contrary to the disinformation you and others here are still spouting – that virtually ALL of them used residence as eligibility criteria, not nationality, blood line or ethnicity. Even the few that didn’t like Montenegro had relatively modest residence criteria of 24 months.

    All of those on the list can be checked by anyone with an internet connection, two fingers to type and a passing knowledge of Google. Go do!

  171. Scott says:

    Andy Ellis says:

    I can (read), but you clearly can’t.

    I read the last bit first, which is the proper way to do such things. (Think accounts on Companies House and notes to the financial statements…you’ll understand that bit, given you used to have a business yourself.)


    Electoral franchise:

    • A fundamental difference between any kind of
    referendum and a secession referendum is that the latter
    calls into question the very definition of the demos and
    therefore it raises the issue of who should vote.

    A secession referendum should not be extended to every
    citizen living in the State.

    • Three different types of collectives must be considered:
    the current electorate of the sub-state region (demos), the stateless national community which seeks self-determination (ethnos) and the potential citizens of the potential new state (putative citizens).

    It is especially relevant to distinguish between the
    potential citizens of a new state and the potential voters
    in a secession referendum
    . The former depends on the naturalization policies of the potential new state and the latter on the agreement between the central government
    and the secessionist region, if this is the case. If such an agreement has not been reached the franchise should reflect clear democratic criteria.

    Now, what was that you were saying about moon-howlers/nativists etc?

  172. Andy Ellis says:

    @RoS 7.58 pm

    Continually saying you don’t believe I support doesn’t render it any closer to the truth, it just remains one of your assertions. I’d post a picture of my Alba membership card, but doubtless you’d still insist I was an entryist or some such nonsense.

    I know what popular sovereignty is, but it doesn’t answer the question at hand, nor can you point to anywhere where Alba are saying they agree that the franchise used in 2014 should be changed or restricted.

    Of course the party might decide that, but there’s nothing I’ve seen – or you’ve been able to point to – that shows the Alba position is any different to the current position to re-use the 2014 for a future referendum. The party appears to be banking on plebiscitary elections happening sooner than a second referendum anyway. I tend to agree with that.

  173. Republicofscotland says:

    Mr Ellis @8.01pm.

    I’m afraid it doesn’t prove anything Mr Ellis other than how this small group conducted their referendums, and how those three co-authors interpreted them by their enfranchisements.

    The paper even admits its just a report saying;

    “This report was discussed in a workshop at the University of Girona on 24th March
    2017. We are grateful to all the people who attended the seminar and particularly
    to professors Rainer Bauböck (European University Institute) and Alan Sandry
    (Swansea University) for their remarks and suggestions “

  174. Republicofscotland says:

    John Main @7.49pm.

    I agree John, it would require a bit of thought.

  175. Republicofscotland says:

    “The party appears to be banking on plebiscitary elections happening sooner than a second referendum anyway. I tend to agree with that.”

    Mr Ellis @8.09pm

    Actually that’s not correct.

    “ALBA demands that the Scottish Parliament instruct the Government to commence independence negotiations with Westminster. If the British Government refuses to engage, or even accept a referendum process,”

    Well we can say for sure that the British government has refused to engage wouldn’t you agree Mr Ellis?

    Maybe you’d better post a piccy of your membership, then again maybe not, for I still wouldn’t believe that you are pro-indy Mr Ellis.

  176. Andy Ellis says:


    Now read Section 5 “The franchise in independence referendums”.

    Well summarized by the Vidmar quote they use at the end of the section in support of their preferred option of a territorial rather than “putative citizenship” basis”

    ‘at the end of the day, it should be, in principle, for the people
    who live in a certain territory to determine the destiny of that
    territory. Would it really be legitimate that the future of Scotland
    be decided by a Scottish-born person, who feels very Scottish
    otherwise, but has lived in London or Sydney for 40 years? Should
    Scotland become independent, good reasons may exist to indeed
    give this person an option to claim Scottish citizenship. At the
    same time, good reasons exist why this person should not vote in
    the referendum (…) An independence referendum is an eminently
    territorial question, so its rules of enfranchisement should also be,
    in principle, territorial.

  177. Brian Doonthetoon says:


    It’s quite simple. In a vote on the constitutional future of the country people live in, the vote HAS TO have a residential qualification.

    I think 5 years is fair. Excludes students who have done their 4 years then gone home but includes post-grads who have stayed to continue their education. Maybe, they’ll stay and contribute to society?

    Also excludes holiday home owners who spend three months a year in Scotland and the rest of the year in their place of “permanent” residence.

    We don’t have to be “soft” here. We have to stand up for our Sovereignty.

  178. Andy Ellis says:

    @RoS 8.21 pm

    Alba demanding things and them happening are two different things. It’s still a lot more likely that they’ll be trying to leverage a minority position to make future elections plebiscitary than making good on their demand for an independence convention which would presuppose the SNP and Greens have changed in the meantime.

  179. Republicofscotland says:

    “‘at the end of the day, it should be, in principle,”

    Mr Ellis @8.25pm.

    I’m trying to be fair with you Mr Ellis on your report, but you really know how to flog a dead horse to the point that someone has to say stop.

    Above in your sentence the answer lies and I think you know this, if however by chance you can’t see it due to your we’ll call it passionate plea, I’ll point it out.

    “It should be”

    The world should be carbon neutral.

    Poverty should be eradicated.

    Children all over the world should be well fed and well educated.

    Should be doesn’t mean it will be.

  180. Republicofscotland says:

    “Alba demanding things and them happening are two different things.”

    Mr Ellis, that’s not the issue here, the issue is you being an active member of the Alba party didn’t mention (more like know) this, or mention it first, instead you went with the plebiscitary election.

    “ALBA demands that the Scottish Parliament instruct the Government to commence independence negotiations with Westminster.”

  181. Andy Ellis says:

    @Brian 8.35 pm

    No Brian, that’s just the point. It DOESN’T have to mean that the 2014 franchise precedent should be abandoned. Claims that other self determination referendums insisted on residence criteria are demonstrably false: in fact it’s very UNCOMMON.

    You’re free to make the argument to change and tighten the franchise, but it will come at a cost both in terms of support within Scotland, and the attitude in the wider international community in terms of recognition and them wondering why you’re moving the goalposts. Rev Stu’s talking point from the July twitter thread remains”

    “We debated this in 2011 and we came to the right decision. Nothing has happened that justifies abandoning that principle in my view. You can’t just disenfranchise people because you think they’ll vote the wrong way.
    As well as being morally wrong, it’s almost certainly self-defeating. The Scotland you’d be trying to sell people under that franchise is a very different place to the one we were advocating in 2014, and very much for the worse.”

    You’re not advocating “standing up for sovereignty” in my view, you’re jettisoning civic nationalism and endangering the chances of achieving the kind of independence the majority want.

  182. Andy Ellis says:

    @RoS 8.48 pm

    I did know it, I’m just capable – unlike you apparently – of distinguishing between things the party believes should happen and what is likely to happen.

    I’m done with you now, same as clueless Dan and the deeply unpleasant James Che. The game’s not worth the candle anymore.

  183. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Andy Ellis.

    Having read your input here, over the past year or so, and having read various articles on “trolling”, both on Usenet and the WWW, it would appear that you are a classic troll.
    You claim to be pro-independence but argue against any proposal to help towards our independence.

    Thus, we should ignore your input.

  184. Andy Ellis says:

    @Brian 9.10 pm

    As I shall do with yours. You also claim to be pro-independence but advance positions, and support fringe nutters, who pose a clear and present danger to achieving it.

    Unlike you and all the other worst moon howlers of course, I’m not a snivelling anonymous on line coward. That tells us all we need to know.

  185. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Main 7.49 pm

    Sue Black, Baroness Black of Strome.

  186. Scott says:

    Andy Ellis says:
    1 November, 2021 at 9:15 pm

    @Brian 9.10 pm

    Unlike you and all the other worst moon howlers of course, I’m not a snivelling anonymous on line coward. That tells us all we need to know.

    Yeah, it tells the whole world that you are a malignant narcissist.

  187. Chas says:

    What a mind numbingly boring set of comments on here tonight. Wings over Scotland is clearly in it’s death throes. Maybe time to put it out it’s misery? Or, will somebody breathe some fresh impetus into proceedings?

  188. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Can I just type that I have NEVER howled at the moon.

    I think that the assertion that I have, places Andy Ellis here:-

  189. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Also, I am not anonymous. I have had the same username on’tinterweb since 2000.

    I have met 100’s of people who know who I am.

    Your attacking the persons, not the ball, shows you for what you are.

  190. Dan says:

    “Clueless Dan” digs out marker pen to include this new addition to the T shirt of names. For supposedly being blocked I’m still worthy of a mention it seems 🙂

    Andy Ellis says: at 8:49 pm

    You’re free to make the argument to change and tighten the franchise, but it will come at a cost both in terms of support within Scotland, and the attitude in the wider international community in terms of recognition and them wondering why you’re moving the goalposts.

    This guy has no idea that the former point will be the case. He’s only recently returned to Scotland and there’s no way he has interacted and listened to the views of actual Scots in the street to state what he does.
    He’d like to think Scotland is this amazing welcoming place, but the reality is many in our society have succumbed to years of disenfranchisement and brainwashing propaganda of the sort which played its part in the Brexit vote.
    The reality is Scotland isn’t just the outward looking and welcoming nirvana he thinks or wants it to be. If he ever went outside and spoke to folk I’m fairly sure he’d no doubt find quite a lot of roasters…

    With regard to “international community” recognition, that’ll be the same community we’re currently playing no part of at COP26, and instead just have to suck up all the shite they decide. Similarly with the globally pushed international best practice gender shit they’re so keen on, or doing zero to stop cunts engaging in wars around the globe. I’m sure places like Yemen and Palestine are so glad the international community are doing all they can for them…
    Gaining recognition from those international community types surely ain’t much to aspire to.

  191. In Norway, voted the number one most democratic country in the world out of nearly 200 countries,

    you have to be a citizen to vote in national elections,

    to apply for Norway citizenship, you must have lived in Norway for at least seven out of the last ten years.


  192. Derek says:

    Well; at the moment, two of my friends – both of whom have married internatinally – are back in the town for a week or so. It’s been lovely to see them, but both they and I think that they’ve made the better choice, given the current circumstances.

    One’s in Finland and the other’s in Brittany, incidentally.

  193. sarah says:

    I am really surprised that there is no talk of challenging for the SNP Leader role.

    Surely there are plenty of sensible and committed members who can see the damage being done to the cause and to the party?

    Has no-one got the stomach for the struggle?

  194. Andy Ellis says:

    @Scot Finlayson 9.54 pm

    Which part of this don’t nativists understand?

    Self determination referendums are NOT national elections. Quoting the criteria for gaining citizenship of an ALREADY independent country is not equivalent.

    Quoting residence criteria for being to allowed to vote in elections or constitutional referendums of an ALREADY independent country is not equivalent either.

    The valid comparison is with the franchise used other self determination referendums since WW2. Guess what, they overwhelmingly used a franchise based on residence.

  195. Derek says:

    …and I can’t spell!

  196. Hatuey says:

    Breeks: “My fear is that climate change is going to bring it’s own “tropic cascades” in reverse…”

    Yes, it’s infinitely complex and interconnected. I think you mean “trophic”, btw, rather than “tropic”, concerning food sources. Maybe like me you have an iPad that wants to undermine you.

    The world is adapting to what we are doing in a million ways. There’s never really been an equilibrium though, it’s always been constantly adapting to one thing or another and in flux. And it’ll adapt to what we are doing now.

    You need to bear in mind that the arrival of oxygen in our atmosphere, something considered good and life-supporting today, once caused mass extinction.

    I think what we are seeing today suggests Lovelock had a pretty good handle on what’s happening.

    Wiping out three quarters of the human population might be a problem for us, but for the world or Gaia it could be a solution.

  197. Robert Hughes says:

    ” The world is adapting to what we are doing in a million ways ”

    Yes , because ” we ” and ” the world ” are one and the same thing – consciousness .

    As long as mankind thinks they are two things we’ll never solve the climate , or any other ” crisis ” .

    The crisis is the limitation of the Materialist understanding that matter is the primary , irreducible substance everything – from amoeba to galaxies – is made of .

    Don’t take my word for it ….

    ” “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.”
    ? Erwin Schrödinger

  198. Robert Hughes says:

    That ” ? ” is a typo . It is a bona fide Schrodinger quote

  199. Hatuey says:

    Quite a revealing statement this, even if he was choosing his words carefully;

    Andy Ellis; “Self determination referendums are NOT national elections. Quoting the criteria for gaining citizenship of an ALREADY independent country is not equivalent.”

    Most people, even most Unionists, are happy to agree that Scotland is already country. Mr. Ellis, for the sake of petty point scoring, seems to be saying Scotland isn’t a country and wants to hold us to the standards that other non-countries are held to.

    As I said, revealing — almost as revealing as his reality-denying views on US foreign policy.

  200. James Che. says:

    Late going to bed so one last comment.

    The people of Scotland are sovereign.
    The people of Scotland have the right to use that sovereignty to choose a new government in Scotland through the claim of right.
    Due to both of the above the Scots people will use their sovereignty to choose the franchise or method of voting before or after independence.

  201. James Barr Gardner says:

    O/T Current news from the deep south….

    26 million spent on refurbishing Isle of Wight Rail Line for 142000 folk, mm think on that..

    Then think on 12% of Scotland that is designated as grouse moors with strip heather burning each year…?

    Profit to the Scottish economy from toffs shooting grouse 25 million…..!

    Meantime upland areas scared by bulldozed tracks, no planning permission required, and massive slaughter of hares, rabbits, and birds of prey.

    Worst of all Scotland’s National bird the Golden Eagle !

    In the USA under the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act the first criminal offence is a misdemeanour with maximum penalty of one year in prison and $100,000 (£73,250) fine for an individual [$200,000 (£146,500) for an organisation].

    I expect the faux tree huggers to get off their arses very soon and start to rewild the Glens and tax the the land owning these states to the hilt ! The People of Scotland will be watching and waiting……….

  202. Hugh Jarse says:

    Wheelchair delegate cannot access COP!

    Priorities awry. Too busy installing shaver points in the ladies lav probs.

  203. Andy Ellis says:

    @Hatuey 12.38 am

    Of course I accept Scotland is a country you plank: it was late, perhaps I should have been more exact, but it’s clear enough to any but the ill intentioned or functionally illiterate that I was making a distinction between an already independent sovereign nation state, and an “entity” seeking self determination, whether that’s Scotland, Quebec or Catalonia.

    What you wrongly infer I was saying, and your motivation for doing so, is much more interesting in my view.

    I don’t deny the reality of US foreign policy. Once again, as is so often the case with moon howlers, you interact with what you *wish* people had said, rather than what they actually say. You’re just another that simply isn’t open to reason. For both our sakes, and for the peace of the thread I’ll simply ignore you too now: nothing can be achieved trying to reason with the ill intentioned.

  204. Dorothy Devine says:

    “Now, I have other more important stuff to do than play whack-a-mole with folk I no longer have any time or (for the most part) any respect for’

    And still here!

    Taking over a site that once rivalled the media – and beat it.

  205. Ottomanboi says:

    No one, in a rational state of mind, would wish to needlessly destroy ancient forrest, pollute the air and seas and make life misery for the inhabitants of this planet. But we do and much of that has been at the behest of development, productivity, progress obsessed politicians, world bankers and globalism apologists who now tell us to stop or else the planet will burn and we humans will be history.
    Nothing like hyperbole to get attention.
    Humanity is very adaptable and has managed changing climate for thousands of years. Whether we can survive the activities of politicians depends on how seriously we take their attention seeking, apocalyptic utterances.
    Look at us, if you don’t do what we want you’ll all DIE! Oh, really?

  206. Willie says:

    Just watching the news and it makes my blood boil. Not a stall, a stand, a delegate, Scotland plays absolutely fuck all part in this summit.

    Excluded entirely, that wee c*nt Sturgeon is a total and utter waste of space. Leader of the devolved regions – her parliament and her have been shown for what they are. Nobodies, absolute nobodies.

  207. Hugh Jarse says:

    Oh come on Willie, aren’t you forgetting that photo opportunity She/her had with St. Greta ?

    Big league stuff.

  208. Republicofscotland says:

    A interesting article on the BBC in an independent Scotland that’s in the EU.

    “THE BBC would lose its broadcasting rights in an independent Scotland that was in the EU, a leading European broadcaster has said.”

  209. Republicofscotland says:

    A gallery of photos of the world leaders inside the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum last night.

  210. sarah says:

    If you want the SNP changed, get an SNP member, or three, to apply for an application form to stand as Leader.

    That is all it takes to get a debate that will open some eyes.

    There is no need to wait for the party to invite applications or for the leader to resign.

    Just apply for a form from the Nat Sec – it needs done NOW before the closing date.

  211. Breeks says:

    Republicofscotland says:
    2 November, 2021 at 9:47 am
    A interesting article on the BBC in an independent Scotland that’s in the EU.

    “THE BBC would lose its broadcasting rights in an independent Scotland that was in the EU, a leading European broadcaster has said.”

    In or out of the EU, I would certainly hope one immediate benefit of Independence would be the end of BBC Broadcasting in Scotland period, and with it, the end of Scotland’s colonial contamination, indoctrination and pernicious anglicisation.

    Scotland can do much better than the BBC, and we should be aiming our sights much, much higher.

    Truth be known, I already have issues calling the BBC a broadcaster at all, when propagandist seems a more accurate and fitting description.

    I also have a slight confession, and that is my views on the BBC might be somewhat dated, since I haven’t watched the BBC by routine in the last eight or nine years. I haven’t watched it all since 2014.

  212. Hatuey says:

    Did you guys hear the big news?

    It turns out that Scotland isn’t a country, it’s “an “entity” seeking self determination”.

    I guess we all misunderstood the Declaration of Arbroath.

  213. Andy Ellis says:

    @sarah 10.01 am

    I think that ship sailed long since. I doubt there are enough people with the will or the influence left in the current SNP to bring about real change even if a small group could find a stalking horse. Surely if the last few years have shown us anything it is that the SNP is now utterly unfit for purpose?

    I doubt many of us, including those who used to be members, would trust the SNP again even if the current leadership was somehow to be ditched? Look what happened with New Labour: I’d say the Corbynista’s had a much better chance and more support from the grassroots than any SNP rebels, but they still failed to rid the Labour Party of the New Labour types who continue to rule the roost.

    Isn’t the better strategy to ensure that there is a viable alternative to the SNP which can at least hold the balance of power by the time of the next Holyrood election?

  214. Republicofscotland says:

    A belter of an article over on Iain Lawson’s blog, I recommend you read it.

    “If the Manifesto for Indy had been embraced in the May Holyrood elections, and voters had been encouraged to vote for the the SNP for the constituency seats and Alba party for list seats, there could have been a massive 90+ (out of 129) pro-independence majority in Holyrood. EFTA would have considered that sufficient for entry, and Scotland could have reentered the single market. The adverse Brexit effects on Scottish fishing, tourism, education, and many other sectors of the economy could have been mitigated. Unfortunately, this course was not pursued.”

  215. sarah says:

    @ Andy Ellis: I think every strategy should be pursued. Currently over a million people vote for the SNP and it will take time for them to see the light [if they ever do].

    Having a leadership challenge will either inspire those who disagree with the current SNP strategy to speak up and thus change the party’s strategy, or the party will be unaffected but the public perception will begin to alter.

    Time is of the essence – everything that can be done to change from the current static, or worse, regressive position, needs done.

  216. Hatuey says:

    “EFTA would have considered that sufficient for entry, and Scotland could have reentered the single market.”

    I’d like someone to explain how that works.

  217. Republicofscotland says:


    Read the article and find out.

  218. Hugh Jarse says:

    Mitigated RoS?
    More than that i would have suspected.
    A small example might be the many EU migrant worker’s likely to be ‘based’ here, but keeping the cheap labour game going down there. Scottish taxes would be due.

    And, having very little nose left to cut off, importing Scottish wind power leccy isn’t going to stop for a good while yet.

    5 year moving out lease/bargaining tool on Faslane and Coulport?

    The lost opportunity cost of saving England from their Brexit is staggering.

  219. Republicofscotland says:

    A very interesting article here from Calton Jock on MI5 agents in Scotland, Glasgow uni, looks like its a breeding ground for them.

    “Those who sign up to employment with the services swear allegiance for life to the “Crown” and the preservation of the “Union”.”

    David Harvie Crown agent for the COPFS, is a MI5 agent, supposedly retired.

  220. James Che. says:

    Many good comments on various subjects,
    I like people not only thinking for themselves but investigating a wide selection of topics for the benifit of working towards an independent Scotland sooner rather than later.

    I suppose one of the few topics I thought was limited was the response to Hatuey,

    Where it was not mentioned the Scots are not only going for the right of self determination and are sovereign. And a country.

    But unlike Catalonia etc we are supposed to be in treaty of union that holds two countries to gather.
    The ownership of that treaty are two countries,
    Scotland and England.

    I would presume that the British government do not have the right to to subsume the treaty of either Scotland or England’s side of that treaty without inferring that Westminster is acting as the English Parliament since 1707.
    In other words as a rogue state to the treaty, and breaking that treaty that made Britain as soon as it was signed.
    As Britain never came into being as a signature on the treaty of the union 1707 at the time,
    It has presumed its inheritance as England’s parliament.

  221. Ron Maclean says:

    A btl comment from this site just over a year ago –

    I have long been of the view that all that is necessary for independence to become the primary priority again is for the right person to take over the leadership of the SNP. I remain of that opinion but It appears now that either corruption is endemic within the SNP, or there is no-one of sufficient integrity capable of mounting a leadership challenge, or both.

    No-one in the SNP has spoken out. Silence is consent.

  222. Ottomanboi says:

    Thanks for linking this
    No need for text the images speak very, very loudly about where Scotland stands, being ground down in the dirt.
    Oh STU, where art thou? So much material.

  223. James Che. says:

    I have never been a member of the snp,
    I am not a member of the Alba party.

    For the following reasons, all political parties can be and often are highly infiltrated sooner or later by the spies spoken of up above, this has been happening since, and I suspect before Danial De Foe.

    I have always thought that a sovereign Scottish people’s parliament gives a lot less manoeuvre to infiltrators or have long standing spies or political parties affiliated with infiltrators,
    With a regular change of office within the people’s parliament and chosen by the people, not a political party in house vote.

    Only the true democracy of the people can rid a country of the scourge of political spies.

  224. sarah says:

    @ Ron Maclean: are you in the SNP or do you know anyone who is? If so, please please get an application in for the leadership.

    At the very least this will get debate at Conference on independence routes – they couldn’t block it.

    See the link at 11.47 to the SSRG’s article – we could be free and in EFTA immediately, NOW, as we have an independence majority at Holyrood. But we won’t with the current leader.

  225. Could someone explain why limiting the voting franchise in General Elections is ok but,

    limiting the franchise in independence referendums is the sign of a fascist nativist moonhowling blood and soil nazi,

    if the problem is limiting the franchise surely both or neither are the sign of the nazi.

  226. James Che. says:


    Sad to say this, but the the wicked witch of the north and all her coven are politically compromised,
    As will be the Alba party eventually.

    We can see the affiliation between joining with the green gobliniod extremists that we did not vote for, and by the way nothing has ventured forward since 2014 from the the Coven.

    The past is done for, obsolete.

    We have to bring in a more favourable new democratic people’s politics, that veers away from political parties and affiliations.

  227. sarah says:

    @ James Che – agree – could put parliamentary members at arms length from a party’s management would be a good start.

    Meanwhile we must work with what we have – I despair that there isn’t one SNP member who has the gumption to stand for leader in order to obtain some debate on the options and issues.

  228. Ron Maclean says:

    Excellent comment by John H Williams on ‘If Only Nicola Would Act’.

    ‘Perhaps Ian Blackford’s new rallying cry should be “The SNP will not be dragged out of Westminster against our will”.’

  229. James Che. says:

    The people are what counts,
    I have worked volunteering for both Scottish parties old and new, but joined neither.
    I personally do not trust politics and single governing bodies with so much power as to act like monarchies over sovereign people,

    Corruption has been the fort^e of most governments for as long as history has been written down,
    And the results have always been a population of people becoming victims of poverty and control.

    That having said the nearest to fairness for people I can see is Sweden,
    Perhaps this could be improved upon by Scotland and its sovereign nation.
    At least it gives us a foundation as a beginning

  230. James Che. says:


    No offence meant to the wicked coven supporters or to yourself as a possible independent thinker,
    But what do we have left to work with other than ourselves that we can trust?

    The joint effort of political parties working together to stymie Scotland getting independence has to be acknowledged.

    The people hunger for what the politicians are preventing at all costs.

  231. Robert Hughes says:

    ” We have to bring in a more favourable new democratic people’s politics, that veers away from political parties and affiliations.”

    Totally agree James . How that comes about is , admittedly , unclear at the moment : it would require a general awakening of a much larger % of our population . A population battered and bruised by centuries of Unionist control/propaganda – ” too wee …….” – and currently hamstrung and hypnotised by the usurpers of NSNP + the lockjawed overwhelmingly Unionist MSM .

    Formidable obstacles , though not insurmountable .

    In the interim I think we’re obliged to lend our support to ALBA and hope such support will lead to an electoral breakthrough or at the very least apply sufficient pressure on NSNP to force it shit or get off the pot .

    My guess is they ( NSNP ) will merely shit themselves and attempt to overturn the pot .

  232. James Che. says:

    Robert Hughes.

    We simple need to use leafleting and messaging on a determined scale as we would during a political champagne.
    Only this time to inform the people about free speech being endangered and intruding into your privacy at home.
    Or to make the obvious point how wrong the education system is taking on gender issues that should be left to good parents,

    All those things we have been adverse to as people, like disappearing women’s status,
    Or how the NHS is failing the patients.

    What people want or would like to see happening compared to the extremism that governments are
    How many people have invested in a car for their family benifit only to find a fuel shortage being imposed, but no compensation from the governments for a new replacement car.
    These are issues that make families poorer, the same as wind turbines all over Scotland but higher energy crises.

    When Rev Stu started informing the People of Scotland with the wee blue book, it woke a lot of us up.

    Now the people have to take up the baton,
    we have to inform and ask how each family we come across is or has been affected by these government policies now or in the future,

    For the soft NO’s are in that category, that maybe are only being effected now,
    It would do no harm to put out a questionnaire even if it came from Alba,

    No Englishman, Welshman, Scotsman or any other nationality living in Scotland would like to think that totalitarian laws in Scotland are impeding or demoralising their own family, their work place, their children’s education,

    For those still asleep in Scotland as to how these laws or lack of justice is about to take a toll on them and their every day commutes and communications.

    The Rev proved fact information changes minds faster than waiting for the next election vote for independence.
    I am not suggesting kicking Alba out the door, but the slightest globelist leanings of infiltration or hierarchical above the grassroots as the coven have done is a no go for me personally,
    It would just ensue as any other political party copy of old parchment British governments installed around the world.
    We must invent new politics.

  233. President Xiden says:

    +++++++Climate Emergency update+++++++++ if you thought there was no climate emergency previously there’s no doubt there is one now after Gates, Bezos and all these politicians and hangers on flew into Scotland on the private jets creating a carbon footprint almost as big as John Kerry’s face.

  234. James Che. says:

    I don’t want the old snp under the new name of Alba,
    Or old labour under the new name of Alba,

    I want Alba to be Alba, To check and vet whom is in the party and their background history.

    Thoroughly question every detail about the treaty of the union and challenge it on its legality.

    I want Alba to take up the Claim of Right attached in history to the Declaration of Arbroath. That has not been eliminated by the treaty of the union,

    I want them to challange every conceivable point with vigour and merit of representing sovereign Scots.
    I do not want a party full of well paid think tanks from universities and the upper echelons in society,
    Whom do not even relate to the man with an ordinary family on a low wage curtailed by his disappearing human rights.

  235. Ron Maclean says:

    @sarah 2:51pm

    After over fifty years supporting the SNP I left the party earlier this year.

    I remember we discussed a leadership challenge about a year ago but it came to nothing. One of the many reasons I left the SNP was because I couldn’t think of anyone in the upper echelons of the party who had the qualities necessary to lead Scotland to independence. Other reasons include the Salmond fiasco, the inability to exploit Brexit, Sturgeon’s failure to challenge anyone obstructing independence etc. I don’t think non-members should waste time hoping that the SNP will improve. You can’t unsell a sell out.

    I am concerned about the dormancy of other allegedly independence supporting parties. Apart from Alba and the Greens I can’t even remember the names of the rest. I think we can forget about the Greens supporting independence.

    Alba looks as if it’s trying to emulate the SNP. Vote SNP and Nicola for First Minister? Work through Westminster to right wrongs? Elect a few cooncillors next year? Don’t publicise anything about Sturgeon’s intrigues and conspiracies or the leaks from her cohorts and administration? Don’t mention malicious prosecutions or corruption.

    I contacted Alba some time ago and asked if there was a branch in my area but true to inherited SNP practice I didn’t get a reply. Branches are probably safer places for presentation of ideas and delivering concerted effort.

    We shouldn’t discuss movement towards independence seriously btl on this site. Too many unionists, abusive negativists, thread busters and trolls.

    It looks as if it’s going to be a long wait. I hope I don’t have to post this again a year from now.

  236. Robert Hughes says:

    ” we have to inform and ask how each family we come across is or has been affected by these government policies now or in the future….”

    In my circle of friends and acquaintances James , very few are interested in Politics , at least to the degree of expending much time/energy in actively becoming involved in the things you suggest . Voting – in some cases not voting , out of a sense of ” they’re all the same ” ( often hard to argue with that ) every 4/5 years is the extent of their interest . I imagine it’s the same for most of us here.

    Of those friends/acquaintances that support Independence – by far the majority – I’m sorry to say ALBA has not impacted to any noticeable extent .

    It was really frustrating in the lead-up to the May H.E hearing people just parroting the ” Version ” , N.I.C.O.L.A The Brave v Auld Sleazy Salmond n ” winning ” . It was a shockingly clear example of a totally , blatantly warped/deceitful n just plain fckn wrong narrative overwhelming the real story , the actuality of the situation – feels like there’s been a lot of that recently .

    Shocking also , people’s willingness to believe the worst of others , even those they’d formerly cheered . The baleful influence of MSM is obvious but people are not blameless either .

    If enough people are not thoroughly scunnered by the subterranean quality of their political representation now – after 2014 + Brexit + Johnson + Sturgeon + zero progress towards Independence – it’s difficult to think what else it would take to reach a tipping point sufficient to generate the necessary energy for radical change .

  237. Hatuey says:

    “If enough people are not thoroughly scunnered by the subterranean quality of their political representation now – after 2014 + Brexit + Johnson + Sturgeon + zero progress towards Independence – it’s difficult to think what else it would take to reach a tipping point sufficient to generate the necessary energy for radical change…”

    A lot of people, probably a majority, don’t really understand the voting system and, consequently, they vote for the same party with both votes. You’d need to explain to them that they might benefit from not doing that.

    And a lot of people probably never gave Alba a second thought — many probably hadn’t heard of Alba, and most who had only heard the negative stuff about Salmond, etc. Alba was systematically de-platformed.

    Then there’s the issue of who scunnered people could vote for on the constituency side as an alternative to the SNP. I had to argue with myself about this back in May (thankfully I won and decided that I couldn’t vote SNP unless there was regime change).

    Finally, a lot of people are doing okay at the moment and are distracted by the trappings of success, gadgets, cars, houses, new suites, the good life, etc. You can’t easily dismiss that as an explanation for their disinterest when it comes to politics or independence.

    We are looking at a minimum of 4 of 5 years of this nothingness, possibly another 10, unless something dramatic happens.

  238. Fionan says:

    Robert Hughes, I agree with what you say here. I was for a lifetime an snp supporter and where possible given family and domestic responsibilities, an activist. My family were as one, independentistas. When it became obvious that the snp had changed and were no longer interested in independence, I stopped supporting them and was left disenfranchised.I was disgusted by the shenanigans of the Salmond smears, and then by the so-called Holyrood enquiry into that shambles. When Alba was launched I was a founder member in the firm belief that this was a new party for indy which could take us home to indy at last. My belief was shaken a bit when Al-Sheik the gravy-trainer latched on, she has already been a member of more parties than I have seen fence posts, but hey ho. And now? Well, now I question why we didnt achieve indy in 2014. Why Neil Kinnock’s unionist son’s firm had the powerful job of counting the vote. Why postal votes were non-representative (they are known as the easiest means of fixing elections), why there was no exit poll, neither was there an exit poll in 2017 or in 2021? Why did Salmond hand over to Sturgeon the unionist betrayer? He must surely have seen some signs of her narcissism and untrustworthiness in all these years – he is far from stupid or naive?

    Yet even having lost all faith in politics and in politicians of any hue, what can we do, we who desperately want independence within our lifetimes and indeed within the remaining very short lifetime of Scotland herself? We have to keep on keeping on, trying to fight the tide of unionism and britishism and try to find some remnant of trust in those politicians who might help us, just maybe, if it is in their own interests, to gain indy. And right now, that is NOT snp, and it is NOT Greens, leaving only the untried, untested Alba party to hang our hopes on. I am so glad that my time is now likely limited to one or two decades (God-Willing) and I wont have to see the very worst that poor Scotland may yet endure in her death throes.

  239. Ayeright says:

    Despair oozes out of almost every comment on here. It’s pathetic.

  240. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    The only possibility of achieving independence is to support, and vote for, ALBA in the upcoming council elections next year, to give us a toe-hold in the public perception of “who is it who can achieve” anything.

  241. Robert Hughes says:

    Hatuey .

    Sure , I get that and didn’t intend any judgement on people’s disinterest in Politics . The quotidian is the main focus of most people’s lives – rightly ; everything else is abstract or peripheral . Until it isn’t .

    Fionnan .

    Agree with everything you say above . Glad your disillusion ( yip , we’ve all felt that ) with the chronic * mishandling * of our aspiration hasn’t caused you to lose all hope . As you know , the thing that goes last

  242. Dan says:

    Big Dilemma at COP26 in Scotlandshire…
    The previously agreed plan to make all the plebs use scooters to save burning fossil fuel has had to be pulled when it came to light that the increased carbon footprint of folk “Doing a Humza” and requiring ambulance and medical services would offset any reductions made.

    9 secs of evidence.

  243. TheBuchanLoony says:

    Hatuey @ 8.48
    “We are looking at a minimum of 4 of 5 years of this nothingness, possibly another 10, unless something dramatic happens.”
    Not necessarily…when Queenie pops her cloggs and joins Dukie it going to be a whole new ball game!

  244. Hatuey says:

    theBuchanLoony, why do you think that? I think that’s definitely going to lead to another Brit-fest, as happened with Lady Di.

  245. Hugh Jarse says:

    “… Independence – it’s difficult to think what else it would take to reach a tipping point sufficient to generate the necessary energy for radical change”

    Supply chain issues caused partly by Blighty being on par, and partly the EU needing to show Brexit as something less than a success(not hard, and with the upper hand too!), if you throw an unknown unknown or 2 into the mix, such as an escalating trade war, another Suez blockage, Refineries explode, you get the idea.

    Empty shelves on a regular or sustained scary one, and having to suffer ridiculous energy prices, given our location and geology, and the middle classes, comfortable or at least solvent within the status quo of the Union, will get it. Self interest does the rest. There is a point of no return.

    But yes, you’re right.
    This pish should be like shooting fish in a barrel.

  246. Robert Hughes says:

    Hugh Jarse ( is it hereditary or diet ? )

    Aye , ” things ” happen , outwith the control of control freaks.

    We live in hope a ” thing ” will happen that favours what we support . For a change .

  247. Ron Maclean says:

    @Ayeright 9:07pm

    When your problems are without cure you will come to understand the real meaning of despair.

  248. Hugh Jarse says:

    Occupational i’m afraid Robert.

    Placed on the naughty step for biting at CBB’s incessant, insecure, psycho babble offerin
    gs, a suitable moniker was needed to show a semblance of self awareness.

  249. Robert Hughes says:

    Hugh J .

    Lol . Great name !

    I noticed ol’ CBB got banned from posting on Iain Lawson’s blog , for the same reason as he was excommunicated here – excessive Linkage . It’s too bad , he had interesting things to say but seems unable to resist adding ever-increasing numbers of extraneous links to every post , even after being cautioned against doing so : maybe he just couldn’t control himself in this regard . TBH his input never bothered me , though I rarely opened any of the links he posted , there were just too many

  250. President Xiden says:

    ++++++CLIMATE EMERGENCY UPDATE++++++++Former Vice President Biden’s car share motorcade of 30 odd vehicles drives through Salsburgh on way to COPS26 jolly ,causing him to realise that there are greater and more serious emergencies out there.

  251. Dan says:

    Not sure if down to the efforts of COP26 or Covid, but I’ve just realised the persistent flow of TV Licensing “reminders” appears to have stopped after an impressive run of over 15 years by those twats wasting paper, printer ink, and delivery.
    Reckon Greta should put in a retrospective claim against them for excessive and wanton climate destruction activities.

  252. robbo says:

    I still get them Dan. Had a couple of red one’s too whereby they actually visited my hoose but I wasn’t in.

    I must get roon to dealing with it- or maybe not.

  253. TheBuchanLoony says:

    Hatuey @ 10.03pm
    I agree there will be an initial Britfest of mourning for mother figure Queenie but when that eventually fades the public do not want King Charlie and Queen Camilla. They want film stars King William and Queen Kate but that aint gonna happen. Charlie has been waiting too long to get the top job and he is going to claim it for a good number of years. It is inevitable that Queenie is going to go sometime relatively soon. Might be sooner than we realise. That is when it will be a whole new ball game of Independence for Scotland.

  254. Hatuey says:

    BuchanLoony, I’m the wrong guy to try and speculate in any rational way about something as irrational and absurd as royalty. Why would anyone of sane mind want to shore up this crap and formally define themselves as inferior beings — to a bunch of vomit-inducing freaks like that?

    I think they should make Andrew king, just to underline how bizarre the whole shit-show is.

    It perplexes me that any of this could, as you suggest, influence the political mood of Scotland.

    I think I’m in the wrong country.

  255. Hatuey says:

    Anyone for another lockdown?

    And, “A prominent adviser to the government on Covid-19 has said he is very fearful of another Christmas lockdown, as he urged the public to do everything possible to reduce the spread of the virus.”

    I didn’t think another lockdown at Christmas was likely until Boris said it wasn’t going to happen… just like last year. Now I’m not so sure.

    In about 10 days we will start to see how the JOLLY26 conference has affected infection levels in Glasgow. Who knows, we might even see the appearance of a more exotic variant or two…

  256. robbo says:

    What price is another lockdown at the bookies? Their normally not that far off.

  257. Ottomanboi says:

    The Covid thing will run and run because so many shiny arsed functionaries are getting off on the power they wield. I’ve never met anyone of my age, or any age who has had this virus. I’ve not been vaxed and the majority of my friends haven’t. We’re all in perfect health.
    People dying of something is normal. Generally death occurs for a variety of medical and social reasons but the experts appear to be queering the stats to attribute deaths almost exclusively to the virus. Who’s paying them?
    The common cold, a coronavirus, may be detrimental to those who are frail or have auto immune deficiencies. Before «Covid19» that was accepted. A more rational world has given way to something where a form of perverted science is the handmaid of social engineering, a familiar theme in European history.
    Fortunately, I find more scepticism now than when this idiotic affair began.
    The medical profession may now be ranked with estate agents, politicians and cowboy builders.

  258. Dan says:


    Mind back in t’day when we were all told by our betters that diesel cars were the future…
    Do you recall a Greta equivalent being used as the face punting the switch from spark ignition to compression ignition engines.

  259. TheBuchanLoony says:

    Hatuey @ 11.27
    What you’ve said is generally correct but I’m not sure you see it. The reality is that when Queenie goes the royals are exposed for what they are. More importantly the constitutional ba’ is burst!

  260. Republicofscotland says:

    I can’t believe Boris Johnson spewed this drivel out in front of the world, is it any wonder then that he’s been described as a malevolent Benny Hill type character at the G20 recently.

    Between Johnson waffling on, and Sturgeon massaging her giant fragile ego whilst looking into the COP table through a window as Scotland has no seat, independence can’t come quick enough for Scotland.

  261. Dan says:

    COP26 Masif talkin’ da shizzle, as their burnt aviation fuel fumes come down in da drizzle.


  262. Breeks says:

    Hatuey says:
    3 November, 2021 at 11:27 am
    BuchanLoony, I’m the wrong guy to try and speculate in any rational way about something as irrational and absurd as royalty….

    It perplexes me that any of this could, as you suggest, influence the political mood of Scotland.

    I found it pretty nauseating that Royalty were crawling all over the COP26 opening, especially when Queenie herself pulled “royal” strings to make sure her own properties were exempt from Green initiatives. Bare faced hypocrisy… and that’s before we even mention the bloodthirsty slaughter of wildlife for “fun”.

    I know it’s much less relevant now, but nevertheless, I think it’s still worth remembering that all of Scotland’s problems in the 13th/14th Century, including the rabid colonial aspirations of Edward 1, all begun with the untimely deaths of Scotland’s ruling monarch and his heir.

    Nevermind going back in time to change Culloden, I’d go much further back, and make it my mission to see King Alexander 111 made it home alright on that fateful night… And then spent the next day writing his will and line of succession… just in case.

    While perhaps not important in themselves, the uncertainties and changes which follow the death of a Monarch s can be catalysts for “other” things to start happening.

    Don’t forget back in 1952, all the fuss there was about ER11 appearing on Post Boxes when Scotland had never had a Queen Elizabeth 1. Before my time, but I there were even bombings of said offensive letter boxes.

    I also think I’m correct in saying the famous court case, McCormack vs Lord Advocate, where Lord Cooper (I think.. Apologies, I’m being lazy and not checking), went on about England’s Parliamentary sovereignty having no parallel in Scotland, was actually a case which related to ER11 appearing on post boxes.

    To be frank, I don’t think the passing of one Queenie will be all that relevant. I also have a notion such affection there is for Queen Lizzie stems back to WW2, and a lot of that generation isn’t far off the same age as Queenie herself.

    A much more progressive event will be when the self appointed Queenie of Bute House get’s her “Toom Tabard” arse booted off her throne, and driven out as a subverter of our rights and her own. Now that will be a good day for Scotland.

  263. Republicofscotland says:

    “The story of the missing Saltire!”

    Mind you watching Sturgeon fawning over Prince William and his wife outside the COP26, I’m convinced that she part of the problem and not the solution to ending this bucket of sewage union.

  264. Scott says:

    Republicofscotland says:
    3 November, 2021 at 1:48 pm

    I can’t believe Boris Johnson spewed this drivel out in front of the world, is it any wonder then that he’s been described as a malevolent Benny Hill type character at the G20 recently.

    What a fanny Boris is. The Queen should sack him.

    Synthetic biology is things like pacemakers, fake tits, false limbs and dental implants, what the fuck does he envisage eyes being synthesised from?…he should stick to lying about painting buses onto boxes and hating the Scots.

  265. wull says:

    Breeks, I don’t think the late 13th / early 14th Century issues are far less relevant now. Look at them carefully, and you will be astonished to see the very same issues recurring today. The parallels truly are just that – astonishing!

    ‘The more something changes, the more it remains the same thing’, as the French say. (With apologies for not knowing how to insert the accents [two cedillas and one circumflex]: ‘Plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme chose’, or variations thereof).

    After all these centuries, and everything that more than 300 years of ‘union’ is supposed to have achieved, the English leopard still didn’t change its spots.

    It’s still the same old thing! All spots intact 9and the same gnashing teeth).

    Unbelievable, but really, really true!

  266. Robert Graham says:

    Trusted Serum manufacturers Johnson & Johnson have avoided a crippling law suit in the USA by offloading its involvement and liability for knowingly adding asbestos to their baby powder .

    How did they manage this slight of hand switch ? , it was very easy and using a corrupt legal system in the USA that allowed it to create another company this company it doesn’t matter what they called it became the “ FALL GUY “ or patsy , this company then surprise surprise filled for bankruptcy therefore absolving Johnson & Johnson of responsibility.

    All Legal , distasteful corrupt immoral and almost criminal but as usual it was Legal ,remember everything Hitler did was eh Legal ,

    The chemical giants producing this Serum are totally immune from any current and future liability or oversight they can produce any old shit and there is no regulatory body to stop them so forgive the laughter when some government lackey voices approval of these drug pushers as being truthful and honest.

    Money has corrupted every single government and scientific institution in the world big pharma are telling governments what to do and what they require next our parliament and political system is a illusion , a illusion to keep the plebs occupied and fighting each other.

  267. wull says:

    Breeks, to continue (and I am sure you will agree) the cause of all the trouble wasn’t the deadly fall of Alexander’s horse over the side of the cliff at Kinghorn, but the devious, dishonest and self-serving way that Edward I set out to exploit the resultant situation.

    Opportunistically exploit it, that is, for his own and England’s (i.e. the English crown’s) benefit, by whatever means came his way. He knew his claim on Scotland was false, utterly false, but still he pursued, concocting one story after another to make his totally unjust plan bear fruit, knowing full well that it was based only on shifting sand.

    Don’t blame Alexander III, or his horse. or his impetuous desire for his new Queen, storm or no storm… And it wasn’t the storm’s fault either. Edward is the real cause of all the trouble, and he’s like a ghost (not to mention – for us, at least – a nightmare) that keeps rising again throughout the whole course of English history.

    Nevertheless, you are absolutely right in this respect, that the wonderfully evocative prose of Professor Barrow’s description of the Kinghorn scene in the opening page of his magnificent ‘Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of Scotland’ has a sadness and a beauty about it that is well worth returning to, over and over again.

    Not only was Geoffrey Barrow a great historian, and a fine man, but – boy! – he could write. Oh for more historians like him.

    But to come back to my point… As the English might well sing (and maybe this is the real meaning of their song): ‘There’ll always be an Edward!’ Or an England. Or whatever… And, nightmare that he is, he keeps coming back to haunt us. Time we had mercy on his soul, put it out its agony, exorcize it, and lay it once and for all to rest.

    If only…

  268. Republicofscotland says:

    Wull @2.51pm.

    Interesting comment Wull, Scotland however has always been full of self serving ("Tractor" - Ed)s, even Good King Robert swore fealty to Edward I, until he was found to be playing both sides.

    William Wallace was captured betrayed by Menteith, and on his person he had correspondence with Robert the Bruce, when Longshanks (named so because he too like Wallace was a tall man) found out about the correspondence between Wallace and The Bruce, he decided that he could no longer trust him and he too became a target not by English but the Scots who were loyal to him in Scotland

  269. Hatuey says:

    There’s only so much I am prepared to say about the NHS performance during this pandemic. It’s a complicated mixed picture. Many in the NHS undoubtedly deserve credit but some day clear minds will assess the whole and give focus to the many and serious failings.

    When doctors surgeries and accident and emergency departments are essentially telling people to stay away, you really don’t have a health service. In the background all sorts of vital services, treatments, and operations were put on hold.

    The truth is the NHS was basically closed down in April 2020. Something like 1 in 3 pounds of tax money goes to this thing and in our hour of most need it essentially closed its doors.

    People get defensive when anyone criticises the NHS and I understand that, but this has nothing to do with anyone wanting to privatise anything.

    We had nurses on the front line last year with bin bags around them, wearing homemade face masks. Old people, known to have the virus, were sent back to nursing homes to spread the disease among the most vulnerable.

    People went out to applaud all this. If the French went out to applaud the Maginot Line in the summer of 1940, it would be less bizarre.

  270. Breeks says:

    Kinda wandering off piste, and you’ll have to forgive me if there are big gaps in my knowledge, but I have often wondered why Scotland’s “nobility” has been so fickle and unreliable, but I wonder whether it’s the Norman influence.

    I can’t help but think that it made little difference to a Norman whether his Estate was in Scotland or England, and if his loyalty wasn’t paid for in gold, perhaps his “fighting” allegiance was determined by who represented the greatest threat to him keeping hold of his Estates and property.

    You thus didn’t exactly pick Scotland or England, you picked who you thought was most likely to win. Too mercenary? Too cynical about Scotland’s great patriots? Maybe. For how many years does a Norman see himself as Norman before becoming a Scot? One generation? Two?

    De Brus, Bailliol, Fraser, are all Franco/Norman names, whereas Wallace by many accounts was Celtic / Welsh. Makes you kind of curious about where the indigenous “Scots” stood in all of this horse trading of Scotland’s power and estates, – and how the Gaels were incorporated too.

    And speaking of the Gaels, special mention for the name Douglas… which isn’t Norman, but I’ve heard stems from Gaelic dhu glas… or black-dark / gray. (Sometimes translated as dark water, because the grey was sometimes a way to describe a body of water). Danger alert… I only read that bit on Wiki).

    I find it remarkable, and a little implausible, that a Nation which according to the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath boasted an unbroken line of 113 Scottish kings (without a single foreigner), should suddenly find itself flummoxed by the death of Alexander 111 and his heir, to the extent there were a clutch of Normans jockeying for position, and it “needed” external arbitration from arch Norman, Edward 1.

    What happened to the “court” of Alexander? Did it just melt away in the fog?

    Probably won’t ever know the answer, especially after Scotland’s records were stolen by Edward and sunk in transit. How convenient, from a Norman perspective anyway…

  271. Hugh Jarse says:

    Might the Union be book ended by Paterson’s ?


    So much could be made of this in yer face corruption, it has ‘final straw’ potential.

  272. Breeks says:

    A wee twist too… you could maybe persuade yourself that there are hidden meanings in the Declaration of Arbroath, where older Scottish traditions were reasserting themselves over Norman influences.

    Why should the Declaration of Arbroath be at pains to assert Scotland was older, much older, than the more recent 11th Century Norman conquests of England?

    Scotland would abide by the “Norman” lineage of monarch, but it would keep a leash on the position just in case the Scottish king ever became conflicted or too enamoured with Norman England.

    If you think about that more, and maybe take Normandy and England as precedent, that leash on the position of the monarch is most definitely not a Norman principle, so where else can it come from but the Scots, who were affirming they might tolerate a king to rule, but only a King who could be replaced, and thus never be sovereign.

    Gets you thinking doesn’t it?

  273. Republicofscotland says:

    “And speaking of the Gaels, special mention for the name Douglas… which isn’t Norman, but I’ve heard stems from Gaelic dhu glas… or black-dark / gray. (Sometimes translated as dark water, because the grey was sometimes a way to describe a body of water). Danger alert… I only read that bit on Wiki).”


    The Black Douglas was one of the most feared lieutenants of the Bruce, and when the Bruce died the Douglas took his heart into battle in a fight against the Moors in Spain where he was killed, Sir William Keith brought Bruce’s heart back to Scotland, and it was buried at Melrose Abbey, founded in 1136 by Cistercian monks at the request of King David I of Scotland.

  274. wull says:

    Young Robert Bruce believed above all in his right to the throne, and that seems to me the driving force of his life. In his youth he defied his father by switching to the patriotic side. His father also believed in that right but thought his and his family’s only chance of actually getting the throne would be through Edward I, on whose side he consistently fought.

    Young Robert was with his father at first, but switched in 1296 or maybe 1297, I think. He fought on the Scottish side first at Irvine then all the way through for the next 5 years roughly, till either 1301 or the beginning of 1302 (check in Barrow, who has a huge amount of detail, which is helpful but sometimes makes the narrative not so easy to follow). Alexander’s court didn’t melt away – there were considerable numbers of nobles and churchmen from both Balliol and Bruce supporters at the time of the adjudication process in 1291-92, who stood up and organised the resistance to Edward’s take-over.

    They must have known young Bruce still had his eye very much on the throne. In 1301 or early 1302, however, when he switched back to Edward, the patriots were still backing and expecting and preparing for Balliol to return. My reading of Bruce’s switch back to Edward (though you don’t find it spelled out too much in most academic histories) is the simplest possible: like others, he thought Balliol was about to reappear in Scotland, and if he did he (like all on the patriotic side) would be expected to swear loyalty to him. That was the one thing he could not afford to do: it would put an end to his own personal claim to the throne.

    Actually, as a callow youth, he had already sworn to Balliol in 1292, but his father and grandfather had not. That was undoubtedly a family decision organised by the grandfather, and also a typical family survival technique of hedging bets. The future king’s father would keep the claim alive by siding with Edward, thereby keeping the Bruce lands in England (and in Scotland as well, if Edward was all-victorious) intact. Meanwhile, if Balliol came out on top in the then still impending conflict, which very quickly turned real, then the Bruce lands in Scotland would remain intact through the youngest of the 3 Robert Bruces (the future king).

    So, that was typical land calculation on the part of the Grandfather, Bruce the Claimant of 1291-92, who, at that time, had the support of about half of the Scottish elite (noble and clerical), while Balliol had the other half. That old man’s mindset was typically Noman and ‘landed’, as Breeks suggests, is evident in the fact that at one point, when he knew his claim would not be upheld in 1292, he actually proposed dividing Scotland up in three, between three of the claimants, to get as big a share of it as he could (and to thwart Balliol from being awarded the lot of it).

    That, incidentally, is the same kind of mentality as Edward himself, who sees the kingdom not as a genuine kingdom but as a kind of huge landed estate ready for the picking. In a way that was the underlying issue, bubbling away underneath all the arguments: Edward was claiming Scotland was just an estate, a piece of property, and he was deciding who had a right to it but all the time intending to make that right dependent on his lordship over it, i.e. himself, the English crown, as the ultimate owner of the place.

    If you have ears to hear, you will certainly hear an echo of things with which you are already at least vaguely familiar. This is still very much with us. The whole English political system or the theory behind is still the same old feudal one, at bottom. Scotland, for them, is not a real country in its own right. The Scots position, which the patriotic cause was fighting for (and arguing very cogently for through churchmen who were lawyers) throughout the 1290s (actually from the death of Alexander III onwards, in 1286), was that Scotland was indeed an independent country. At the time, that meant a genuine kingdom, governed by its own king, and not any other (hence the claim about the 113 and not a foreigner among them in the Arbroath document of 1320). England was a different and distinct kingdom, and the English king had no claim on Scotland.

    Edward knew that that was true: it was only after he decided to take over and subject Scotland to the English crown (by violent or whatever means were useful to that end), that he ordered a search of first the English royal records then the monastic records in his kingdom to find ‘proofs’ that would support his decision, searches that in fact proved fruitless. he is the one who bases his case on mythology about the legendary Brutus etc.

    Anyway to finish – I have to go, I have an engagement – at the beginning of 1302, when young Robert Bruce switched allegiance to Edward I, the return of Balliol to Scotland was believed to be imminent, and there was no way he was ever again going to swear fealty to him as his (Balliol’s) inferior, and loyal subject. Like that, he would never be able to win the throne that had been the whole point of his coming onto the patriotic side five years earlier, in 1297, or whenever it was. Legally, such a submission would have put him once and for all out of the game (i.e. the ongoing competition for the Scottish throne).

    One of the most impressive things about those on the patriotic cause was their command of the legal arguments surrounding the conflict, and Bruce was very aware of not making what would be a legal blunder. He wanted his claim to remain as legally indisputable as it possibly could be: his grandfather had been the rightful claimant in 1292, passed over by an unjust decision on Edward’s part, and that claim would finally devolve down to him. He had no intention of ‘usurping’ a throne that he saw as rightfully belonging to the Bruce family, and ultimately to him.

    I am pretty sure this is the right interpretation, even though most academic historians do not currently support it, and even the best of them, like Professor Barrow for whom I have the greatest respect, tend to sit on the fence on it.

    Maybe one day I will put my hat in the ring and write the book that I think really needs to be written on all this stuff. If I get the chance, and find the energy… Who knows?

    Finally, one last mighty point: Robert Bruce, as king, DID put his kingship before the lands he owned, and was ready to lose lands in order to be king. Including all the Bruce lands in England, but even to jeopardise his own personal lands in Scotland. And he realised that one of the major roots of Scotland’s problems was that of nobles having land on both sides of the border (as had been the case of his own family). If he ahd had his way – but unfortunately circumstances prevented it, and he had to give way on this to obtain the peace he so much wanted and hoped for for his infant son and heir – such ownership on both sides of the border would have been totally forbidden, Nobles / landowners would have been obliged to opt to be either 100% Scots or 100% English in their loyalties, and in the lands they owned. That idea was something very original, indeed mighty, in that time.

    Robert Bruce, in the end, was not just a self-seeker, following his own interest all the time. Basically, he bankrupted himself for Scotland’s cause and what he considered his own, and his descendants’, right to the Scottish throne. In my view, he was Scotland’s greatest king, and Scotland was so lucky to have him. Cometh the hour, cometh the man …

    Will our generation and the next ever be so lucky? Do we even deserve to be? I ha’e ma doots, but I still very much hope so. Let’s see … Let’s try … Let’s hope

  275. Andy Ellis says:

    Interesting as the historical diversions may be, I wonder how relevant they are to our current situation? It’s all very well to get misty eyed about the days of Bruce, to be proud of the Declaration of Arbroath and Claims of Right etc., but lots of peoples with no such history – indeed peoples that have never in their entire history had independent states of their own – have not only sailed past us, but must look scornfully on our inability to take our independence rather than ask for it.

    If you survey the current political environment in Scotland, I’m honestly not sure that “cometh the man, cometh the hour” holds true. Of course we all know that you can fool most if not all of the people at least some of the time, but are there really any charismatic men or women in the younger generations, in their 30’s and 40’s say, that we can see leading the movement?

    Joanna Cherry perhaps, although it seems large swathes of the “Sturgeonista loyal” would sooner see her politically defenestrated than support her. I’m honestly struggling to come up with any other names given what we’ve seen of the SNP bench warmers in Westminster and the lacklustre quality of MSPs in general.

  276. willie says:

    It’s difficult not to get annoyed when you hear of the bitter vile racist spin that comes out of utter Charlatans like Humza Yousaf.

    Skilled in the black arts, all too ready to pull the poor discriminated race card, this is the man and his wife who when not getting the child a place at a well respected nursery instructed a news paper to mount false flag activities to try and entrap a nursery as being racist.

    Holding yourself out to be someone your not hoping to get a result to support a legal prosecution is not what you expect from a government minister or his wife. But that is exactly what this slime bag, or was it is wife was up to.

    And now a statement by the Care Commission, a government body, to say that they’ve undertaken a review and they hold the nursery racist and that they will not hesitate to take future action.

    So who involved these people, and who do they report to, the Scottish Government perchance.

    Sorry to say but this is just another example of a rotten SNP government and rotten SNP minister and his wife. These people by their actions provoke resentment. This was an ordinary nursery extremely popular and where because the big important big man didn’t get his way he cries racism on poor me,

    Well folk are sick of that and I’m sure for the good parents of the Little Scholars Nursery and the staff they will now be incensed at this yaki playing the race card against them.

    For me, all I can see in Yousaf, and his Palestinian wife is abuse of position and bigotry stoking.

  277. Dan says:

    Scots’ leccy bills helping fix Italian potholes…

    Herald article in Craig’s tweet archived.

  278. Chas says:

    Andy Ellis

    I am with you.

    We are back on about things that happened hundreds of years ago. I will let you all into a secret-the past is past-nothing anyone can do to change it.
    The present and more importantly the future is what matters.
    Like Andy, I see nobody within the ranks of the SNP who is any where close to being competent other than Joanna Cherry. Remember that the current crop of ministers are the best of the bunch. Yep-Swinney, Useless, Wee Katie et al. Let’s not even talk about the dross that inhabits Westminster!
    The Tories or the SNP-what a choice we have. Not looking good at the moment!

  279. Derek says:

    Dan says:
    3 November, 2021 at 8:04 am

    …the persistent flow of TV Licensing “reminders”…

    Aye, October last year was the last one here.

  280. Dan says:

    @ Derek

    Did you feed it to your worms in yer compost bin?
    I commented previously that I’ve kept all the letters from them in a huge pile for either a future class action against them for harassment, or for asset stock when I become a titan player in the paper industry.
    Added eco planet saving bonus point is that the room is now a cubic foot smaller in air volume due to the stack of letters so requires less energy to heat…

  281. Robert Hughes says:

    Excellent posts above on the continuing resonance of crucial aspects of our history : our national archetypes – which Jung characterised as ” events that never happened ( myths , fables , legends etc ) but are always happening ” – the recurring motifs of history , situations and behaviours.

    Andy Ellis , I can’t see any likelihood of an inspirational , charismatic , heroic figure emerging from the wet rag brigade that comprise NSNP , their idea of bravery is preventing a ” micro aggression ” of thought , word or deed from ever being committed against the LGBTZZZzzz Unsullied .

    Any such figure would have to come out of left-field and be untouched by career- politico pox

    The Time of Heroes is over ? Hail The Technocrat !

    Maybe a council of fairly anonymous bravehearts AND wise-heads would be more effective than yet another ‘kin clay-footed * Personality * , easily seduced by power and * human all too human *

  282. Dorothy Devine says:

    RoS, my husband went on holiday to the wilds of Spain where there is memorial to the Black Douglas and where he is revered to this day.

    He was always a favourite of mine.

  283. Dorothy Devine says:

    P.S One should know ones history and not necessarily the history of the next door neighbours – Scotland tak tent.

  284. wull says:

    There’s an old saying to the effect that those who don’t know (i.e. those who forget) their history are bound to repeat it.

    That can apply to nations, and communities as well as individuals. If you lose your memory, how do you find your way again? You will even end up forgetting who you are.

    Maybe even where you come from, what your place in the world is, and whether there is any purpose in your existing at all!

    Now, just think: who would want you to forget all these things? Who profits from you not knowing anything (certainly not anything real) about these things?

    Another saying for you: whoever controls the (discourse about) the past, controls the future.

    Whatever you think of these two characters, Alex Salmond at least did know something about Scotland’s past, and was concerned about its memory. And Nicola Sturgeon? I don’t think so. Nothing at all, probably. Or even if she does, she probably wants to dump it in a waste-pit.

    Or put it away for good. Get rid of it. Or have you already forgotten how the SNP went about erasing people from its own recent history? And that only two or three years ago…

    Ask yourself why they were so keen to do that? So keen, that is, to control the discourse about their own history, and suppress from it even the most self-evident facts and truths.

    Are we so docile we just go along with that kind of thing? So willingly forgetful as to think none of it matters?

    There is ignorance which is just plain ignorance, which can be excused. And there is ignorance which is culpable, because its wilful, and it pretends truth doesn’t matter.

    Culpable ignorance colludes with the lie, and acquiesces in it. It does so negligently, or, worse still deliberately, but always culpably. The human mind, at every level, and in every imaginable discipline, is made in such a way that it is bound to search for truth. Ignore that, or deny it, and we undermine – and undo – our very selves.

    By the way, I didn’t know the Scottish Government had such a thing as a ‘Care Commission’… Never heard of it? Who is on it? And how much do they get for being on it? What do they do? And what do they get paid for doing it?

    Now, if you had told me there was a ‘Couldn’t Care Less Commission’, I might just have believed you…

  285. MaggieC says:

    I see Manky shirt man got huckled by the polis in Glasgow today,

  286. Alec Lomax says:

    Wull, congrats on alluding Santayana, other than that you do slaver a load of pish.

  287. wull says:

    By the way, while Robert Bruce’s father and grandfather (both of whom were also called Robert Bruce, or, in its original Norman form, like him, Robert de Brus) were indeed of pure Norman stock. He wasn’t: his mother was a Gael, and it was through her that he was able to inherit his Earldom of Carrick.

    He – young Robert Bruce, who beacme king in 1306 and reigned till 1329 – spoke Gaelic, the last Scottish king to do so. He would also have spoken Norman French, quite probably English as well, and known enough Latin to understand it if it was read to him (and could maybe even read and write it himself, although that is by no means sure). It is usually presumed, no doubt with good reason, that he would have learned his Gaelic by being farmed out to a Gaelic-speaking household for a certain period during his childhood or early manhood.

    I think it must also be quite likely that in any case he learned it from his mother; she would presumably have been a Gaelic-speaker of aristocratic lineage. Gaelic would not have been the only language she knew, but it might have been her mother tongue. If so, she would also have a good knowledge of other languages as well. Her husband probably did not know Gaelic (though I suppose the possibility that he did cannot be automatically discounted; if he did, it certainly would not have been his first language).

    Bruce’s culture cannot simply be described as ‘Norman’. He was not monocultural, and was surely in touch with the cultural variety that existed in his day. He was also well equipped to operate among the cultural elites of his time, both in Scotland and in England. He has been downplayed in recent times, and there are political reasons for that.

    And although the modern so-called Unionists (who are not genuine Unionists at all, but what I would call ‘absorptionists’) have much to do with this – remember how they tried to distract everyone from if not celebrating simply remembering the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn – they are by no means the only ones to blame. The politically correct NSNP hierarchy want Bruce expunged from history as well. Scotland, don’t forget, is not to be a place for real men!

    By ‘absorptionists’ masquerading as Unionists I mean people who do not believe that the UK is a Union between Scotland and England but, instead, that the former was absorbed into the latter. This is the English Imperial view of the UK which authentic Scottish Unionists until recently never accepted, and to which they were always clearly and radically opposed.

    The term, however, could also apply to the utterly insipid NSNP numpties who want Scotland to be transferred and totally absorbed into the new TRANSculture that is already transforming and taking over the USA.

    Although Europe is also being affected, the member states of the EU still have voice enough within the EU structure, as individual nations, to resist such absorption. Indeed, Europe has enough antipathy towards the USA, and enough resistance to being made into its pawn (or, more to the point, a mere pawn of its lobby groups and its imperialistic economic elites and interests) for the NSNP to change its mind completely on ‘Scotland in Europe’.

    Reference can be made to the link to the article by caltonjock which someone recently posted above.

    On this, the bossy NSNP bosses are now much more on the same side as Boris Johnson and his Tories than they care to admit (or will allow the public to know). NS has been working on changing the ‘Scotland in Europe’ policy for several years now, maybe ever since she became leader, mostly surreptitiously (but, I think, traceably as well). It’s not so much English gold that they have all been bought and sold for this time, but the mighty dollar. SNP just as much as – or maybe even more than? – the Tories, and other Unionist parties.

    The Brexit campaign and its success, in which they are now all tamely acquiescing without a whimper – with the great Scottish Rhino, not extinct after all, but lazily wallowing in the Black Ford from which the Westminster mud rises, letting out the occasional lame-as-a-wee-duck Bellow – was more about making the UK subservient to the USA than it was about breaking away from being a real player in Europe.

    And the whole thing played into the USA’s hands so nicely, for the USA today wants to break up the EU, which it sees as a threat. Just as the Roosevelt administration’s aim in the 1930s an 40s, even during the Second World war alliance, was always to break up the British Empire. So that the USA would become the world’s top-dog, instead of the rapidly declining UK. The idea is to unthread Europe, so that it unravels as quickly as Churchill’s beloved British Empire did.

    The NSNP agrees, and will wholeheartedly sell Scotland down the river to the multiple fancy agenda(s) coming out of the USA, and allow our country’s total absorption into all kinds of huge international organisations and financial interests. They want their cut, that’s all, and to hang on to as much of the loot as they possibly can. Just like the landowners who owed more loyalty to their possessions on any side of the border whatsoever in Bruce’s day, and not to any people or nation. Only money counted to such people then, and so too today.

    They have no qualms about sinking Scotland’s national movement, which they exploit for their own gain, below the water line. Riding on the back of it they’ll steer it down the Swannee river – and there she goes – once again, and for ever. The people scuttled by their very own home-bred, greed-is-good, greasy-pole, woky-poky-dancers.

    As Breeks notes, Scotland has always had them… and here they are again. They are dangerous, and horrible, but not altogether insurmountable.

    True, it’s not sure that now that the hour has cometh, the man (real man) or woman (real woman) will cometh too. But it’s not impossible.

    He or she (not an it, for sure, and not a fake but a real he or a real she) might just come out of what seems like nowhere, to surprise – and delight – us all. Who knows?

    Bruce was thought to be finished, dead and done with, when he appeared with virtually no one and almost nothing on the Carrick shore, in 1307, and look what happened next… The tide turned. Not all at once, but turn it really did. And eventually became unstoppable.

    Stranger things have indeed happened than all our calculations could dream of. Take note. Take heart. Do not despair. There is something about Scotland that just will not go away. No matter how often they throttle us, no matter how often all seems lost – utterly lost – there is still something here that simply will not die…

  288. Fred says:

    Ottomanboi says:
    “The medical profession may now be ranked with estate agents, politicians and cowboy builders.”

    I’d go with the Cowboy builder analogy. Even the revered BMJ are now headlining the utter ineptitude and untrustworthiness of Pfizer’s vaccine trials.

  289. sarah says:

    HELP wanted!!

    Can you name any MP or MSP who is in favour of taking all available routes to independence?

    Please let me know so I can email them.

  290. Derek says:

    Dan says:
    3 November, 2021 at 8:29 pm
    @ Derek
    Did you feed it to your worms in yer compost bin?

    No, not yet! I was kind of interested because of the wording and the cyclical nature; there’s half-a-dozen letters that turn up in a certain order and then it goes back to the starting one; the threat level escalates as each letter arrives. I was contemplating an FOI request regarding how much Crapita charges whoever’s paying for each letter.

    I do have some general shredding to do; the worms’ll get that. 4 compost bins now…

  291. Hatuey says:

    Interesting report that, Fred.

    Definitely worth crunching the numbers contained therein, if you’re a thrill-seeker, taking account of infection levels at the time.

    Glad I opted for Moderna…

  292. Scott says:

    Dorothy Devine says:
    3 November, 2021 at 8:42 pm

    RoS, my husband went on holiday to the wilds of Spain where there is memorial to the Black Douglas and where he is revered to this day.

    He was always a favourite of mine.

    ‘Black Douglas’ was a tune composed by Geoff Davidson (then music teacher at Castle Douglas High School, close to the former ‘Douglas’ stronghold of Threave Castle) and performed by the school orchestra which won us top prize at the local school’s music competition in the early 80’s, leading to an invite to record it for BBC Radio Shortbread.

    I can still hum it to this very day…quite a punchy, catchy tune.

  293. President Xiden says:

    +++++CLIMATE EMERGENCY UPDATE++++++ Protestors gathered outside the conference centre the other day chanting ‘You can shove your climate conference up your arse”. The leader of these foul mouthed ’DENIALISTS’’ has been identified as Swedish activist Greta Thunberg. When asked for a comment on this , a spokes person claimed that the former Vice President had not heard these anti conference protestors as he was asleep at the time.

  294. Robert Hughes says:

    ” A second employee also described an environment at Ventavia unlike any she had experienced in her 20 years doing research. She told The BMJ that, shortly after Ventavia fired Jackson, Pfizer was notified of problems at Ventavia with the vaccine trial and that an audit took place.

    Since Jackson reported problems with Ventavia to the FDA in September 2020, Pfizer has hired Ventavia as a research subcontractor on four other vaccine clinical trials (covid-19 vaccine in children and young adults, pregnant women, and a booster dose, as well an RSV vaccine trial; NCT04816643, NCT04754594, NCT04955626, NCT05035212). The advisory committee for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is set to discuss the covid-19 paediatric vaccine trial on 2 November.”

    Doesn’t exactly fill you with confidence does it ?

    The whole interface of Public Health * Scare *- Governmental Response- MSM coverage is contaminated by profit driven * incentives *
    and political expediency/control issues .

    Likewise Climate * Crisis * response .

    We can see the vultures of Corporate Capitalism circling round the entrails of our stricken planet vying for the eye-watering sums of money being discussed to * tackle * the problems .

    Once again , a massive % any such money will end-up in the coffers of private entities , once again , diminishing the resources available for the nominal intended purpose

  295. Dan says:

    @ sarah at 3 November, 2021 at 10:41 pm

    This yin wrote a few articles in the National prior to being elected.

  296. Dan says:

    … Bonus is he also probably knows the difference between a ewe and a tup… 😉

  297. @Republicofscotland,

    The town of Teba in Andalusia/Spain ,where Douglas and his knights fought the Moors, has an annual celebration of the battle,

    there is also a big monument commemorating Douglas and Bruce.

  298. Breeks says:

    I came across this…

    I was moved to search for information on sycophancy after reading some below the line comments about Sturgeon meeting Joe Biden.

    I always knew narcissists surrounded themselves with adoring sycophants, but I never realised the extent to which sycophants need a narcissist to adore. They live in hope of that pat on the head from authority.

    It’s a poisonous and unholy symbiosis. Read the article, it’s not very long, and see if it reminds you of anybody and their adoring fan club…

    We are wasting our time trying to bargain rationally with these people.

  299. Chas says:


    Agree 100%

  300. Ottomanboi says:

    There are medical professionals in my family who are astounded at what little science ie science through observation and experience there has been re «Covid19» much gossip, anecdotal «evidence» and much input from pharmaceutical companies, computer modellers, politicians and mega rich third parties with social engineering agendas.
    Sadly, it is an axiom that many in the medical profession accept «gifts» from drug companies and are happy to push product. Very third world.
    Interestingly, computer models, pseudo science, anecdote, politicians aka wold leaders and the mega rich social engineers are also involved in the Cop26 « last chance saloon» get together.
    Observation and experience tells us not to trust.

  301. Hatuey says:

    Interesting little article, breeks, but I think it better explains one or two people in here… and probably a bunch of people in the SNP.

    Sturgeon is a petty tyrant, though, not a sycophant. In laymen’s terms, a bully.

    The distinguishing characteristic of tyrants and bullies is their belief in power; it’s all that matters.

    Tyrants bend in both directions, like a sycophant and narcissist rolled into one. Thus they know who they need to bow to and they know who they can get away with picking on, based on assessment of how much relative power they have.

    Watch any bully in a playground and see how it works. They threaten and dominate the weak, then, when a bigger bully or someone with more power turns up (Boris, the Queen, Biden, etc.), the attitude miraculously changes and they appear sycophantic.

    It must be frustrating being a tyrant in a little colonial pond like Scotland, with no real power, having to bend the knee so often. Yes, it is, so you feed the ego by demonstrating your power to those below — confound and defy them, throw a couple of opponents in jail, stitch someone up, rub noses in it, etc.

    The Independence movement had to be destroyed because it put pressure on Sturgeon to confront people who have a lot of power. And that just doesn’t compute if you’re a tyrant that worships power.

  302. Dorothy Devine says:

    Scott, well done! I love Threave Castle , visited it a couple of summers ago – and bought the magnet!

    The Black Douglas was part of my growing up as my bigger brothers were delving into the rough and romantic history of our beautiful country – and he became one of my heroes.

  303. Breeks says:

    Hatuey says:
    4 November, 2021 at 9:13 am
    Interesting little article, breeks, but I think it better explains one or two people in here… and probably a bunch of people in the SNP.

    Didn’t think it needed explained Hatuey, but I had Sturgeon pigeonholed as Narcissist in Chief, and her many acolytes as the deluded sycophants.

    I think Sturgeon is the epitome of a Narcissist, but worse than that, I think she is also largely unable to make a decision because she’s been debilitated by stress. Stress, because she’s done worse than NOTHING when so much was expected of her, but she so very far out of her depth that rational planning and developing a worthwhile strategy is now totally beyond her. To put it flippantly, she is suffering long term bunny in the headlight syndrome.

    Because she’s a narcissist, she will easily float on regardless in glorious self denial of failure being her own fault, frailty, or responsibility. She will waffle and “wing it” to the bitter end, and blame it all on one scapegoat after another, never her own shortcomings. I can see no other trajectory.

    She’s simply been promoted too far above her capacity, and the proverbial “sink or swim” adage hasn’t worked out terribly well for Scotland, because she’s sunk like a dead weight and been a crippling liability from the moment she had to step into Alex Salmond’s shoes.

    The woman is now very ill in my opinion, but sadly I cannot feel any compassion for her illness while she remains in office posing such a threat to us, with the power to irredeemably divide and wreck the Scottish Independence Community.

    That’s my amateur diagnosis, and while I am angry about her stupidity and vindictiveness to smear Alex Salmond and leave the YES Movement to rot, Sturgeon in my opinion needs a good friend’s ear and shoulder to cry on, but she’s surrounded by Trans-mad nut jobs, probably spooks and subversives, and definitely a gang weirdos on the make or on the take.

    Step down lassie. Go get yourself straightened out. Forget about Independence. Try to step down with a bit of grace and dignity, and for god’s sake, don’t commit us into a Section 30 referendum disaster, but instead do what you can to undo the damage and discrimination you have suffered upon ALBA and Alex Salmond, who are now the true torch carriers for Scottish Independence.

    Declare that you and the SNP genuinely want reconciliation and that you wholeheartedly agree with ALBA’s Constitutional approach towards a UK Plebiscite Election. Do it for the sake of Scotland, create that unified pro-Independence monolith you should have created with the ALBA list party strategy.

    Oh aye, and on your way out, do us all a favour, boot out Kirsty Blackman for bullying and resurrect the status of Joanna Cherry, … and for God’s sake buy an SNP muzzle for that long-standing pillar of the British Establishment, Wishart.

    Yes friends I know. I am feeling a wee bit delusional myself this morning… but at least I can admit it.

  304. sarah says:

    @ Dan at 7.48: Many thanks – I had wondered if he might be the right type.

    Next question: whenever I write to an MP/MSP who isn’t my own constituency I wonder if they will see my email at all or if their staff bin it. So how can I contact them?

    Meanwhile I will just have to plod on and hope some staffer sees that my suggestion of standing for leader in order to get independence routes debated at Conference is the answer to that problem.

  305. Republicofscotland says:

    Thanks to those who commented on James Douglas, whether you’ve remembered something about him, or, I have somewhat piqued your imagination to go and look further into the history of your country, it will have been worth it to mention him.

    Meanwhile the new Witchfinder General of the COPFS Dorothy Bain is pushing for many more juryless trials, however previously the legal profession and some MSPs opposed this. The head of the Scottish Prison Service Teresa Medhurst appears to approve of the move to take the pressure off the prison service.

    It could be that if this move is approved that juryless trials will become the norm and not the exception, two things immediately spring to mind, would Alex Salmond have been acquitted if it have been a juryless trial, and would Craig Murray have been acquitted if he did have a jury.

    In my opinion juryless trial leave the process open to abuse, regardless of a backlog in trials, I believe that accused people deserve the right to a fair hearing, which includes a jury of their peers to decide their fate on the evidence produced.

  306. Republicofscotland says:

    If ever proof was needed that the Westminster system is broken the fiasco surrounding Tory MP Owen Paterson lays it out in spades. What will it take for Ian (Scotland won’t stand for it) Blackford to gather his MP’s and walk out the House for good never to return.

    I think that there’s nothing so corrupt or maligned that could happen within the HoC that would see Blackford say right enough is enough we’re not coming back. The SNP MP’s might talk a good game, but in reality they are utterly embedded in the HoC, effectively they are now part of the system that we want to remove Scotland from.

  307. Hatuey says:

    Breeks: “The woman is now very ill in my opinion…”

    Yip. 100%. You see it in the eyes. The darkness.

  308. Republicofscotland says:

    Watched a pretty good movie last night Michael Collins (Liam Neeson), on the Irish struggle for independence. In one conversation between Collins and Eamon de Valera, Collins asked him how do you defeat the British Empire, de Valera replied you ignore it.

    The SNP and Sturgeon certainly haven’t and won’t ignore Westminster.

  309. Merganser says:

    SNP advert: ‘A Nation in Waiting’.

    Numan advert: ‘Do something about it’.

  310. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Breeks 10:46 am.

    Top comment once again.

    Yes, NS is on the edge of cracking up, just look at her face nowadays, She knows that she’s fu***d up too much and that the pressure won’t go away.

    Her predicament is all her own doing and she can’t undo it anymore, she’ll be going down in history as the ultimate “Toom Tabard” with her reputation in tatters.

    NS is a coward.

  311. Dan says:

    Aye Breeks, if only she/her/queen of burnt mandates could have delegated some of the duties to others to lighten the load, such as allowing the Health Secretary to do the covid stuff.
    But no, she/her/qobm had to have her coupon in the frame at all times.

  312. Breeks says:

    wull says:
    3 November, 2021 at 5:53 pm

    ….Robert Bruce, in the end, was not just a self-seeker, following his own interest all the time. Basically, he bankrupted himself for Scotland’s cause and what he considered his own, and his descendants’, right to the Scottish throne. In my view, he was Scotland’s greatest king, and Scotland was so lucky to have him. Cometh the hour, cometh the man …

    I would agree with that. (Not just that, I hasten to add).

    I also knew about The Black Douglas, and the “real” Braveheart story, but the Gaelic dhu and glas was new to me. A great incentive to learn more Gaelic. I’ve just scratched the surface.

    I think it’s brilliant picking up wee gems like that.

    Like saying “smashing” to describe when something is great, and Gaelic saying that’s great is “s’math sin”. Thanks to Miss PunnyPenny on Twitter for that…

    Scotland has so much wealth everywhere, in the ground, in the sea, in the soil, and even the air that drives the wind turbines seems a blessing. Our language(s), our history, our culture(s)… There is so much subtlety to the flavour of Scotland which gains absolutely nothing from the smothering it gets with British Union Jack Ketchup.

  313. Dan says:

    sarah says: at 11:27 am

    I had wondered if he might be the right type.

    Next question: whenever I write to an MP/MSP who isn’t my own constituency I wonder if they will see my email at all or if their staff bin it. So how can I contact them?

    First point, well he may be / have been the right type because that series of articles was written before he got, selected and the candidature for the Constituency.
    Having read the trilogy at the time I did wonder if such views on how a move towards Indy could be initiated might have been too much to get through SNP vetting process…

    Second point, good luck getting a response from any SNP folk. In my experience they are very selective in who they respond to. I’ve spoken to numerous members of the public that didn’t get replies to their attempts to communicate with their elected representatives, and that’s over and above the dozen or so of my own, which were all justified and often made on behalf of vulnerable individuals.
    Frankly, it became embarrassing being associated with the Party in my area due to continually being let down by their piss poor and lacklustre approach in dealing with their constituents.

  314. John Main says:

    @Hatuey says: 3 November, 2021 at 3:52 pm

    “Something like 1 in 3 pounds of tax money goes to this thing and in our hour of most need it essentially closed its doors.”

    Have an uptick Hatuey, for writing what some of us have been thinking for about a year now.

    As others have asked, if the NHS is such a wonderful idea and institution, how come no other first-world country in the world has copied it?

    The NHS is more of a national religion than it is anything else these days. Slavishly worshipped, and to criticise it is tantamount to sacrilige.

  315. James says:

    wull @ 10:32pm

    I think that it was in fact James IV who was the last Scottish king to speak gaelic.

  316. Ron Maclean says:

    ‘Norway’s healthcare is not free, but it is heavily subsidised. The Norwegian healthcare system is founded on the principles of universal access, decentralisation and free choice of provider.’

    Those criticising the NHS should explain how they would improve or replace it, carefully explaining how their improvements or replacements would be funded etc.

    Don’t forget to show your working.

  317. sarah says:

    @ Dan at 1.23: It is shameful of our elected reps not to respond to things such as you describe. Shocking.

    Mind you I would have been happier not to have Emma Roddick replying to me on GRA and referring to “cis” women. I didn’t bother with a response. Also I was better off not getting the bland “can’t interfere with court decision” when I asked Maree Todd to support a request to Keith Brown to release Craig Murray on compassionate health grounds.

    Perhaps a phone call to Jim’s office might be best.

  318. Robert Graham says:

    3 things going on just now while everyone is looking the other way

    Firstly the lord advocate has expressed her opinion on Jury trials to end the backlog of cases where a charge of rape is in the indictment , a very dangerous path to follow especially when the Judiciary are part of the ruling government , what happened to the separation that was to be implemented after the failed Alex Salmond fit up .

    Secondly it took a FOI request to find out how many men have identified as women in order to gain access to a woman’s prison the outcome of these actions hasn’t been revealed , has there been assaults ? and have any of these confused individuals had a physical surgery to change them into women or can they just say they’re a woman ,

    Thirdly the the teaching staff at this Edinburgh primary school who have promoted all change Thursday where staff and pupils all dress as girls and women , I believe this school should be taken under special measures and the teaching staff summerly dismissed pending further enquiries a line has to be drawn and these confused individuals taken out of the education system completely

    All this shit is happening on Sturgeons watch , who knows what other stuff is going on and what’s being hidden ? This whole country has under her changed beyond recognition I don’t fkn recognise this Fkn La La Land is like something out of a dystopian fkn nightmare

    For the first time in my adult life I couldn’t support or condone this SNP imposter of a leader who attends gay pride marches at the drop of a hat and can’t bring herself to join a Independence march not once has she attended a march not fkn one

    I wonder if a re trial of Alex is being considered maybe some new evidence has been discovered therefore rendering the previous trial declared a mis trial evidence so compelling that the previous verdict be deemed unsafe and worthy of further investigation, I wouldn’t put it past her .

  319. Republicofscotland says:

    “NICOLA Sturgeon should chair a new UK-wide institution tasked with overseeing funding for climate projects across the four nations, a report from Gordon Brown’s Our Scottish Future has suggested.”

    As if Sturgeon isn’t already deep down the unionist rabbit hole, can she really be co-opted any further by the union. Mind you Sturgeon has such a gigantic and fragile ego if offered the position her megalomaniacal side won’t be able to resist the offer, we want be breaking the union ties that bind Scotland not strengthening them.

  320. President Xiden says:

    Robert Graham, you are entirely correct. Failed Lawyer, Nicola Sturgeon has simply jumped on the SNP bandwagon in order to further her real political agenda which drives her. Clue: and it isn’t Scottish Independence.

  321. wull says:

    Many thanks to Breeks @ 1.19 pm (I too have to admit my lamentable and culpable ignorance of Gaelic – should at least have made a decent effort at it) and also to James, for the interesting correction about James IV, @ 2.04 pm

  322. wull says:

    Some time ago, on this site, when she was appointed, I once posted that I thought Bain might turn out to be a good thing at the Crown Office Prosecutions Service. Unfortunately, I had mixed her up for someone else, and forgot to correct myself.

    So, lamentably late, but better late than ever, allow me, with apologies, to do so now.

    Anyone who pushes juryless trials (moreover, in order to ‘get more convictions’ irrespective of the justice of the accusation, or on account of a verdict not going the way she wanted it to go) is NOT showing a proper concern for justice and should NOT be in public office of any kind.

    Maybe I mixed up a Bain for a Bayne, and the Bain in whom I mistakenly placed some hope is turning out to be a Bane. Not to mention a pain – and a threat to public justice, the rule of law, and the proper operation of courts and the whole legal system.

  323. wull says:

    Thank you, Robert Graham @ 3.43 pm, for bringing all this shocking stuff to everyone’s attention. I did not know some of this information, even though I agree totally with your view of NS, and have done for a long time now.

    Especially ever since it became obvious she actually had no plan whatsoever for independence.

    Since then her true agenda and priorities have taken over the SNP entirely, something which must have been already cooked beforehand, and she has become more and more blatant and brazen in promoting them.

    A big thank you also to Rev. Stu, followed by others on here, for exposing all this so quickly and incisively immediately it became apparent.

  324. Tinto Chiel says:

    Re: The Black Douglases,etc:

    St Bride’s Kirk in Douglas, Lanarkshire, is worth a visit, since it has some amazing family tombs, such as Archibald The Grim’s. I believe the crypt below is still used by the Douglas-Home family for interments from time to time. The sarcophagus of Lady Lucy is extremely fine in its detail but the kirk is not a place to linger in for long of a winter’s afternoon.

    Douglas comes from Dubh Ghlais “black burn”. Glais is an Old Gaelic word meaning burn/stream.

  325. robertknight says:

    Persuaded a relative to join ALBA today.

    I think what swung it was paraphrasing the line from The Usual Suspects…

    The greatest trick that Sturgeon’s SNP ever pulled was convincing the electorate they favoured Scottish Independence.

    Signed up there and then!

    Think I may get that line printed up on a tee-shirt.

  326. sarah says:

    @ robertknight: well done for spreading the truth a bit further. Once people’s eyes are open they won’t close again.

    @ Robert Graham: Edinburgh primary school staff suggest every pupil dress as women… surely this won’t escape media scrutiny in Edinburgh? What a vote-loser it will be.

  327. Hugh Jarse says:

    The indoctrination of our young by these self appointed elite’s seems to have a common purpose Robert. Scary. Serious scary.
    Social engineering.
    Why, & who benefits?

    International parallels only add to the multifaceted concerns.
    All those spook sponsored jollies across the pond for ‘leadership’ seminars that the elite’s wet their panties at, are, it would seem, not in the interests of liberty, or ‘equality’.(a word truly weaponised, an inverted equality)

  328. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    While I was playing “Mr Do!” on my iMac tonight, as aural wallpaper, I had “The Nine” on my TV.

    I caught the story about the Edinburgh school expecting boys to wear skirts. Got my brain cogs working.

    On my way to work in the morning, I’m occasionaly on a bus that contains a number of pupils heading for Harris Academy.

    The boys are fine. They tend to wear anoraks and troosers.

    The girls are another story. Over the past 2-3 years, I have seen the girls, whose age appears to be about 13 – 16, wear black tights and these wee black pelmets, that barely cover their nether bits.
    The thing is, they are aware of it, because when they’re standing to get off the bus, their hands are continuously pulling down their hems, like they are aware that they’re showing too much.

    So, it’s quite simple. If a “gender-neutral” uniform is required, it should be a sweatshirt and trackie bottoms for both boys and girls. With girls abusing the concept of what a “skirt” is, trackie bottoms make sense.

  329. Hatuey says:

    John Main: “Have an uptick Hatuey, for writing what some of us have been thinking for about a year now.”

    People support the NHS for the same reasons that they support Sturgeon and the SNP; what else is there?

    If there’s such a thing as a Scottish cultural mindset, it surely involves putting up with abject crap because you can’t imagine things being better.

  330. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Why should it be down to boys to wear the skirts?
    Why shouldn’t the girls wear troosers?

    Donald, we need you.

  331. Hatuey says:

    We’re all gonna die. And it’s your fault.

    Only joking.

  332. Breeks says:

    Tinto Chiel says:
    4 November, 2021 at 7:27 pm

    Douglas comes from Dubh Ghlais “black burn”. Glais is an Old Gaelic word meaning burn/stream.

    Thanks a lot for that correction Tinto Chiel. The glas word for gray did feel a wee bit contrived for a body of water, but Ghlais makes much better sense.

  333. Willie says:

    As I recall it Breeks the colours, or at least the adjective for gray and green changed over the years. Why I have no idea.

    However in France in the 16th century the French seemed to be having a thing with colour whereby the beige robed Capuchin friar and right hand man to Cardinal Richelieu became known as his Eminence Grise.

    Grise, Glas, meaning gray not green, I don’t know. But I do know of the Eminence Grise which is alive and well in the office of the First Minister – and brought to date, sinister rainbow ones at that.

  334. Tinto Chiel says:

    @Breeks: you’re very welcome. Glais is also found in the surname Fowlis (of blessed Julie fame). It comes from “fo-ghlais”, under (i.e. small) burn so it’s a surname derived from an original place-name.

    Colours in Gaelic often seem a little bit imprecise but this may just reflect the more subtle and varied colours of the natural world as our ancestors saw them,

  335. sarah says:

    @ Tinto Chiel, Willie and others re Gaelic for green and grey. A few years ago there was a controversy about Land Rover I think it was calling one of their colours “Stornoway grey”. Lewis people took this amiss but on BBC Alba people from the other islands said it didn’t bother them because the word meant green on their islands!

  336. paul says:

    There’s an old saw out russia:

    They lie to us, we know they’re lying, they know we know they’re lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them.

    Often attributed, but never verified, as coming from A solzenitzen.

    One genuinely from the gulag archipelago:

    “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

    Tommy Sheridan must have read or felt that one getting rid of the humiliation of rent sales.

  337. paul says:

    While I was trying to check quotes, I found from AZ as well, a peach:

    “Unlimited power in the hands of limited people always leads to cruelty.”

    Thank goodness we’re passed that stage.

  338. Breeks says:

    Names are funny. I have connections to the name Stenhouse, which I never thought for a moment was particularly Scottish.

    But apparently one of the oldest place names written down in Scotland’s law records (1293) is Stenhousemuir… And Stenhousemuir is literally derived from the stane hoose moor, in other words, the moor distinct from all other moors because it had a stane hoose built on it… a very, very rare phenomenon way back before Scotland was even Scotland, because it wasn’t a castle, chapel nor a hoose at all apparently, but a stone built temple built by the Romans and contemporary with the building of the Antonine Wall. It was actually still standing until the 18th Century, known as Arthur’s O’on or oven, but demolished by an idiot Lord of Stenhouse who wanted the stone for a dam.

    So the stane hoose and it’s moor has probably existed as a landmark and place name since around 142AD, when the Romans built the Antonine Wall, and thus was well known and established as a place name a long time before it’s written reference in 1293. So while the word’s stane and hoos are apparently derived from Northumbrian English, the name Stenhousemuir is very specific to a known Scottish origin and it’s also been around for a very long time, and is probably even contemporary with the Picts.

    That’s the place name in fairness, so when Stenhouse actually became a surname is anyone’s guess, but it’s not unreasonable to suppose that it’s pretty old too.

    Funny things names eh?

  339. Bob W says:


    Where I was brought up.

  340. sarah says:

    Loving these history and language comments today. Nowadays the only bits of the National I read are a skim through the football pages for light relief, the letters pages so long as the letters aren’t too annoying, and then any history or language articles.

    And that’s anither thing – how disgraceful that the Gaelic and Scots columns were axed.

  341. Cenchos says:

    Dirty Politics 101:

    If, while defending the morally indefensible, you find out that you are not going to get away with it, simply perform a U-turn then claim that the U-Turn is the right thing to do.

  342. Robert Graham says:

    Off Topic that’s if there is a Topic right now

    A warning about this bogus 38 degrees GOV.UK sponsored propaganda pushing organisation the carrot is sign our petition .

    The actual point is to get any information on you , 38 Degrees is a UK government website

  343. James Che. says:

    Why tell Scottish people to forget their past?

    I have enjoyed the history given here of Scotland for good or bad. But find it interesting that some are suggesting the Scots should not remember events in their history. That their history is not important,

    We should Forget about the declarion of Arbroath?

    We should forget about the Treaty of the union.

    We should Forget Neil kinnocks sons firm counted the referendum votes in 2014.

    Old history or new history,

    It does not matter.

    We the people of opposition to independence are telling you the Scots, We will be selective in teaching you our version of Scots history and tell you our British version. Wipe the fullness of Scots history of the board. Like speaking our language, Scottish music. And choice of national dress,

    Interesting stance to take.

    Quite happy to take up you’re suggestions to forget past history in Scotland as long as it is not selected and restricted by those telling us to forget it
    we can forget about something that happened over Three hundred years ago like the treaty of the union.
    For apparently even if it is in historical writing, it’s not important and it is no longer relevant.

  344. James Che. says:

    We will forget the Declaration of Arbroath and the treaty of the union,

    We will start living with no history as of today, as Scottish sovereign people in Scotland.


  345. Republicofscotland says:

    James Che @3.15pm.

    We should never forget the Declaration of Arbroath such is its importance to Scots. I’ve read that parts of our declaration were considered for use, and gave inspiration to those charting the US Declaration of Independence.

    Here is the shortened version and the full version (in English) of our cherished declaration.

  346. paul says:

    I love being educated, but here is now.

  347. Andy Ellis says:

    “What experience and history teaches us is that people and governments have never learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it.”

  348. Ebok says:

    Breeks says:
    3 November, 2021 at 4:54 pm

    ‘…..according to the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath boasted an unbroken line of 113 Scottish kings (without a single foreigner)’….

    I’m not that good at research, which is exasperating at times as there are several parts of the Declaration I find difficult to follow.
    For example, your quote above from the Declaration, if my counting is accurate, there were 43 kings inclusive from MacAlpin to Bruce, (843 – 1306) and around 40 kings of Dal Riata from Fergus Mor until MacAlpin (c500 – 843).

    It’s said that all Scottish kings acknowledge their bloodline back as far as Fergus Mor, but that leaves the Declarations 113 around 30 ‘kings’ short? And as Fergus Mor has his roots in Ireland, doesn’t that make his forefathers ‘foreigners’?

  349. Republicofscotland says:

    Ebok @5.55pm.

    I count forty-one men and two women who have led Scotland from Kenneth MacAlpin to James VI.

  350. James Che. says:


    Oh I understand how important it is that ALL history counts,

    That was my point.

    We are supposedly supposed to forget our history on the Declaration of Arbroath
    But remember the treaty of the union.


  351. wullie says:

    Gaelic with Jason on YouTube
    if you want to learn a few words

  352. wee monkey says:

    Republicofscotland says:
    5 November, 2021 at 7:04 pm
    Ebok @5.55pm.
    “I count forty-one men and two women who have led Scotland from Kenneth MacAlpin to James VI.”

    Yeah but how did they self identify?

    See how the self ID issue is starting to encompasses the entire galaxy.

  353. Ebok says:

    Republicofscotland says:
    5 November, 2021 at 7:04 pm
    ‘I count forty-one men and two women who have led Scotland from Kenneth MacAlpin to James VI.’

    Agreed. But I’m really looking at Kings – or Queens – up to and including Bruce.
    My count was incorrect in any case as I wrote down 27 for House of Alpin when it should have been 17.
    So now I’m looking for 40 Kings, not 30.

  354. Republicofscotland says:


    I make it fifteen for the House Alpin, starting with Kenneth MacAlpin 843-859 to Malcolm II 1005-1034.

    We then move on to the House of Dunkeld.

  355. Breeks says:

    Ebok says:
    5 November, 2021 at 5:55 pm

    I’m not that good at research, which is exasperating at times as there are several parts of the Declaration I find difficult to follow…

    You’re not alone there Ebok. I think part of the problem is it was written in Latin, and some of the meanings are open to different interpretations.

    The point I was trying to make was the slight incongruity I find between Norman Scottish Lords jockeying for approval from the Norman English King Edward 1 around 1290, and the Declaration of Arbroath, which not only utterly rejects English rule, but also any Scottish King who failed to defend Scotland from English rule.

    That either means that Scotland’s Norman Lords had a final change of heart and changed their allegiances to Scotland more permanently than 30 years before, (which is certainly quite plausible after years of warfare, double dealing and treachery), or alternatively, the Declaration of Arbroath was perhaps a very much a Scottish initiative. An initiative which was sickened by the 30 years of colonial wars, invasion, and the constitutional dogs breakfast which had been created by Scottish / Norman Lords who had no business swearing fealty to Edward 1 in the Ragman Rolls.

    Thus the Declaration of Arbroath quite deliberately set out to assert a Scottish Constitutional doctrine which constrained the powers of the Monarch and denied him sovereignty, rather than cow-tow to Norman doctrine which had set out to embrace and seek advice from England’s Norman Monarchy. (Edward 1 of course being dead of course by the Declaration of Arbroath).

    Sorry, I’m not making my point very clearly. The bottom line is I think it’s pretty clear the Declaration of Arbroath was NOT written by a Norman. To me, it reads as if written by someone who didn’t trust the Norman Lords an inch through their slippery propensity for abandoning Scotland and sucking up to the English crown.

  356. wull says:

    I have no expertise whatsoever on the matter of the 113 kings. However, I seem to remember academics claiming that the Arbroath document conflates two king-lists, one referring to Pictish kings in the East of the country and the other Scottish (i.e. Gaelic-speaking) kings in the West, with their power centre in Argyll. So some of the kings in the Arbroath list would not have succeeded to each other: instead, they would have been reigning simultaneously over geographically different areas within what is now Scotland.

    Kenneth MacAlpin is supposed to have united both these kingships in his own person. Whether he did so through marriage, or by miltary victory, I have no idea. Whatever the case, he is generally reckoned to be the first king to rule over both areas, the Gaelic-speaking West and the Pictish (P-Celtic) East.

    In that case, the kings who reigned BEFORE Kenneth MacAlpin would have been taken from both lists. Some of them would have been Pictish kings, and others Gaelic kings.

    I think the academics also suppose that a history of Scotland had been written round about the middle of the 1280s. Unfortunately, however, it is not extant. I think they suppose it disappeared quite soon afterwards, and has ever since been lost without trace, or virtually so. There might be very vague traces in subsequent histories of Scotland written in the 14th or 15th Centuries, like that of John of Fordun or the one of Walter Bower, but these are not easy to identify.

    If a copy of that text were to be almost miraculously rediscovered, it might resolve this question, and others arising. Unfortunately, there is virtually no chance of such a ‘find’ ever happening. Still, you never know…

    The expert in the matter, if my memory serves me well, is probably Dauvit Broun, recently (and as far as I know still) Professor of Scottish History at Glasgow University.

  357. Republicofscotland says:

    Ebok make that sixteen, as Giric squeezed in a very short reign prior to Eochaid, who also had a brief stint as king.

    After Donald I reign ended in 900AD, one of Scotland’s (Alba back then ) greatest unsung hero kings came to the throne Constantine II, it was he who insisted on the name Alba.

    Anyway an interesting bit of info is he added to the Scoti myth, and the Stone of Destiny, that came all the way from Egypt with the Egyptian Princess Scoti, the stone having been said to have been Jacob Pillow, in which he had the dream of the ladder to heaven.

    Constantine added a Pictish prince to the myth called Gaedal Glas, a prince of Scythia who had ancient Pictish blood running through his veins, it was a master stroke by Constantine II, that quickly got the Picts onside, and gave them a shared ancestry.

    As we all know the stone would end up in Scone and be used to crown kings.

  358. Republicofscotland says:

    Wull @8.41pm.

    What I can recall is that king Kenneth MacAlpin united the Picts of Fortrui with the Scots of Dalriada to under his rule in 843, either by war or by marriage.

  359. Republicofscotland says:

    “The bottom line is I think it’s pretty clear the Declaration of Arbroath was NOT written by a Norman.”


    I’ve read that the missive was written by scribes at Arbroath Abbey, where king Robert’s chancery was situated.

  360. wull says:

    It was for sure composed and written up by one of the top clergymen in the country, because they formed the ‘civil service’ of the day. Traditionally, this was thought to be Bernard de Linton, the Abbot of Arbroath Abbey. Some doubt has been cast on this attribution, however.

    Professor Barrow suggested Alexander Kinninmouth (I think I have his name right, though I may be out by a letter or two) as the most likely person to have drawn up the document. The same Alexander became one of Scotland’s bishops – of Aberdeen, if I remember well – but only afterwards. I think Barrow says he was also one of three envoys who was sent to Rome with the document to deliver it to the Pope of the day (Pope John XXII).

    It is of course a letter addressed to that Pope from those Scottish nobles who sealed it. Many of the Normans who came to Scotland from the 12th Century onwards, and maybe especially their children and grandchildren, tended to identify rather quickly as Scots. Many of them married into the already existing Scottish nobility. So, there was not just mixed blood, but cultural transmission both ways (i.e. in both directions). I think it’s a mistake to think of them (‘the Normans’) as a caste apart in Scotland.

    The Robert Bruce who became king in 1306, and saved the day, is a case in point. His mother was heir to the earldom of Carrick, and most certainly Scottish. Although his father was certainly of Norman stock, the Bruces were a family that had gained lands in Scotland and been deeply involved in Scottish affairs for several generations.

    Like others, they also had lands and interests in England, of course. As I said in an earlier post, King Robert had no hesitation in sacrificing and foregoing these (pretty considerable) English estates in order to gain, instead, the Scottish throne. That shows how much more important Scotland, and the Scottish kingship, were to him than his southern landholdings. Bruce had priorities!

  361. James Che. says:

    Bill gates talking up germ warfare on humans.

  362. Tannadice Boy says:

    I have come to the conclusion that Stu is right to retire. 1306? Gaelic? Old Kings of Scotland?. We are now a minority, a very minority movement.A discredited movement. By the way I am related to Fergus Mor. Isn’t everybody. Job done Nicola. It is impossible from here.

  363. Andy Ellis says:

    @Tannadice Boy 10.09 pm

    Yup…been saying it for a while. Stu should just put the place out of its misery now. The moon howlers took over long since. I mean…..kings lists…? Bill Gates is a germ warfare criminal?

    Come on Stu…you’d have come down on these utter zoomers like a ton of bricks in the past. They’re just soiling a fine legacy now. Time for the lights off, surely?

  364. Benhope says:

    Wull, a little bit of pedantry.

    For most of the fourteenth century the Pope was based in Avignon in France and not Rome, so that is where the Declaration of Arbroath was taken.

    Remember Stu likes all posts to be factually correct !!!!!

  365. Tannadice Boy says:

    @Andy Ellis 10:16pm
    It’s up to Stu. He has done amazingly well. It is his baby. Against most of the contributors on the this site I have agreed with the essence of your most of your posts. From an intellectual viewpoint, unfortunately you spoil your discourse by calling people moon howlers, totally counter productive. We are trying to find a way forward. Respect as the bairns would say. The climate change narrative has overtaken our cause. Fully funded by the MSM. There are no leaders of the Independence cause.

  366. paul says:

    Are we history class, or class of history?

    Let’s you at the here and now, the latter that we can hold.

  367. Ebok says:

    Christianity and Islam has 3.7 billion followers.
    They celebrate events thousands of years previous.
    We call it religious freedom.

    Robert Burns. Greatest Scottish poet.
    Wrote proudly of struggle 450 years before his birth.
    We call him a genius.

    Great Scottish writers recall events centuries earlier.
    Writers are celebrated.
    We call it great literature.

    Football and rugby fans proudly sing
    O Flower of Scotland
    We call it patriotic.

    Alba issue founder membership documents inc.
    Declaration for Scotland/extracts of Declaration of Arbroath
    We call it a rallying call.

    WoS contributions discuss period when Scotland was free
    AKA SCOTTISH history
    We call it moon howling

  368. Confused says:

    If history was so unimportant – then why do the bad guys always seem so intent on rewriting it and making sure their version gets output (- and the likes of Niall Ferguson get such nice jobs?)

    If you take away history or let your enemies write it, then you can lose your identity; Scots are just Anglos in denial, with funny accents, play acting at being “aboriginal Picts” … I have heard that a few times, but its all absolute fucking bollocks, disproved, from of all places, the Oxford DNA study, “the people of the isles”.

    “The most striking observation is the extraordinary correspondence between the genetic clusters and geographical location.”

    – the Scots are a people, with a Land and their own history, arguably much more impressive than that of the Angles. And if it was otherwise, do you not think the evidence would be used against us? Neil Oliver is already trying to “brain malky” us with his theory of a “pan British” (- we’re all just brits!) civilisation based in Orkney, before the “celts”, something which he is allowed to promote on BBC4, but seems to have little support from anyone else.

    A good read I thought was Stuart MacHardy’s “A New History of the Picts”. Wide reading, including the “forbidden” can be highly useful.

    The Declaration of Arbroath has some nice things in it – the bits about being “Scythians” – these were “Conan” type guys running around the prehistoric steppes on chariots. This probably has as much substance as the Tuatha de Danaan for the Irish, but so what? Nothing wrong with celebrating your mythology, if you have one – of course the Anglo Saxons are very poor in this regard, which is why Tolkien tried so hard to reverse engineer one, ripping off every myth he knew of, including that of the Finns. Notably their national epic, the Kalevala was a central cultural weapon in their fight for independence, and inspired Sibelius.

  369. paul says:

    They lie to us, we know they’re lying, they know we know they’re lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them.

    I would add antiquarian shite.

    We are here and now, if looking around you is not enough, then why are you here?

  370. Hugh Jarse says:

    Of course, we knew someone would be tasked with making sure WoS was killed off.
    See above. Tag Team.

    Moon howling!

  371. Tannadice Boy says:

    #Huge Jarse 12:13pm
    There is only one person that can end Wings. And that would be the Rev Stu. I will meet him one day. He is on my bucket list to meet. I will bring my Highland wife along for his safety and security. Oh no perhaps that is not a good idea. I can barely contain her myself but God bless her she voted for Independence.

  372. twathater says:

    I wrote this to my MP on the 15th Oct in the wake of the SSRG post

    I would request your opinion by reply to the proposals put forward by the group as I feel it is imperative that independence is now more urgent than Ms Sturgeon alludes too
    This is the response I recd from him Yesterday Thurs 6th Nov , obviously he expedited the response (satire)

    Many thanks for getting in touch. I welcome a diversity of voices arguing for Scottish independence and setting the case for self-government out for public debate. In the future referendum on independence it is vital the lively debate in the pro-independence movement is reflected more widely in the national discussion on our nation’s future, and wherever that debate is being promoted.

    In terms of the specific proposals put forward by the Scottish Sovereignty Research Group, I am afraid I cannot agree with their idea that Scotland should declare independence without a referendum of the people of Scotland.

    Firstly because the precedent recognised by the international community for nations seeking to gain their independence is through a free and fair vote by the people on that nation’s sovereignty. That is, quite rightly, the path Scotland took in 2014, and no-one argued that a Yes vote would not be recognised by other nation states or organisations such as the UN or EU. There is simply no point in declaring an “independence” that the rest of the world does not accept.

    Secondly, because I agree with the legal principle that the people of Scotland are sovereign. Ordinarily we vest that sovereignty in our elected members and in the Scottish Parliament. But on issues that are fundamental to our future as a country and society – such as independence – that sovereignty should be expressed directly at the ballot box through a referendum on that specific issue. The SSRG’s proposals would block that popular sovereignty and create a precedent for such a decision to be taken by MSPs alone. That could have unforeseen consequences that would rebound badly on the independence movement in future years if that notion was allowed to take root.

    I appreciate the impatience many of us have to achieve independence as quick as possible. I want independence as soon as it can happen – the quicker we achieve it, the quicker we can begin the process of rejuvenating our society after the wasted years of the Union. However there are no shortcuts, however appealing, to securing a popular mandate for independence at the ballot box from the people of Scotland.

    As I say, I welcome the many contributions to the debate we are currently seeing, however I do not see the SSRG’s proposals advancing the cause of independence one iota, and indeed it is entirely possible they in fact hinder its prospects.

    I hope this is useful and if I can help further on this or any other issue please don’t hesitate to get in touch.
    I would ask if people contacted their MP with the same request , if they have had a response from their MP , is it the same response or a different wording of that response from their MP , I am interested to know if heed orifice has issued the above as a standard response for any MP or MSP contacted
    I also note that he says this , ” Secondly, because I agree with the legal principle that the people of Scotland are sovereign. Ordinarily we vest that sovereignty in our elected members and in the Scottish Parliament. But on issues that are fundamental to our future as a country and society – such as independence – that sovereignty should be expressed directly at the ballot box through a referendum on that specific issue ”

    There is NO definitive requirement that INSISTS the ballot box decision MUST be a referendum , Therefore the ballot box decision is equally indicative through a PLEBISCITE ELECTION where the independence decision is made by THE SOVEREIGN PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND which also includes the unionists

    sorry for the length but thought people might want to know 1 MP’s view (or is it)

  373. Andy Ellis says:

    @Tannadice Boy 12.26 am

    The response of the aptly named poster @12.13 am is a case in point, and demonstrates why the BTL comments are now a bin fire. On the one hand you say you agree with the essence of most of my posts, but on the other you have a fit of the vapours over the describing of the basket of deplorables derailing the site with their ridiculous hobby horse issues (whether ethno-nationalist nativism, anti-vaxx conspiracy theorising, climate change denial and now plodding antiquarianism about early medieval Scottish kings lists is largely beside the point) as moon howlers?

    No wonder most of the adults have left the building. It’s sad to see such an unedifying end, and of course entirely to be expected that the self same zoomers spouting the blood and soil tropes are often the ones attacking the likes of you and me for attempting to be the voices of reason. Ironic that they feel quite comfortable doing so by hijacking the site of someone who appears to hold their world view in contempt, as evidenced by Stu’s words from 26/09/2021 in “Under her Thumb” which are worth re-quoting, because it applies equally to the moon howlers pushing their other woo-woo issues as it does to cultural nationalism, and there’s often an exact overlap in the Venn diagram of their unreason:

    “A section of the movement appears to be retreating into kilts-and-bagpipes-and-Gaelic cultural nationalism of the type that predated the SNP’s electoral success and gives the average voter the pure heebs every bit as much as Sturgeon’s rainbow-haired sturmjugend do. It’s a sort of comfort blanket for those with no hope of actual victory, much like the last 20 years of the Welsh nationalist movement.)”

  374. Hugh Jarse says:

    Agent Ellis regurgitates,

    “Yup…been saying it for a while. Stu should just put the place out of its misery now.”

    Dozens of plea’s to close the site for ‘reasons’.

    I rest my case.

  375. Breeks says:

    twathater says:
    6 November, 2021 at 1:55 am
    I wrote this to my MP on the 15th Oct in the wake of the SSRG post

    “….Secondly, because I agree with the legal principle that the people of Scotland are sovereign. Ordinarily we vest that sovereignty in our elected members and in the Scottish Parliament…”

    Ordinarily vesting our sovereignty in our elected members, I would interpret as reference to the UK Parliament’s unwritten convention on Parliamentary Sovereignty, which essentially assumes we are in a consensual treaty, but where Scotland’s sovereign consent is automatically presumed to be given. That is how Westminster circumvents Scotland’s sovereign authority and right to veto legislation.

    It is a contentious and arguable point that the “sovereignty by consensus” argument is itself wholly unconstitutional, but this unwritten convention has held sway for the life of the Union and even I would have to accept it has long time been adopted as the conventional norm.

    Everything changed however in the Brexit Referendum of 2016 however, because the sovereign people of Scotland emphatically voted for the UK to remain in Europe, while England voted for Brexit, and that created an existential constitutional crisis for the UK.

    This Brexit result, and the explicit rejection of Brexit by Scotland was totally ignored, disgracefully ignored by Sturgeon’s cowardly capitulation to Brexit, but the subsequent removal of Scotland from Europe against it’s will, was an unequivocal demolition of unwritten convention of consensual Union.

    The emphatic democratic will of Scotland’s sovereign people was subjugated, and the lie about the convention of consensual Union was undone as a fallacy. The Treaty of Union was shredded and Independence was right there for the taking.

    There are two points upon which the SNP should hang it’s heads in shame. First, they have been complicit in Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation through their spineless acquiescence to Brexit.

    And second it is a humiliating disgrace that Scotland’s “government” rolls over and ignores every infraction, breach, and brazen violation of both the Treaty of Union itself, but even where the breach of faith occurs in the unholy myriad of unwritten conventions which are known to be entrapments.

    It is self evident that in this Treaty of Union between “constitutional equals”, there is only one signatory to Union currently being bound by its conditions, while the other signatory shows not the slightest respect for the Treaty, and routinely breaches it’s terms with absolute impunity.

    The Treaty of Union is a sham. Scotland could cite any number of breaches of the Treaty. The very existence of the UK Supreme Court. The very existence of a devolved “Parliament”. Even the recent trading arrangement between Northern Ireland and Europe is a literal breach of the Treaty of Union. Where was Scotland’s constitutional backstop to defend it’s sovereign constitution the way Northern Ireland did?

    Scotland is the only signatory to the Treaty of Union dumb enough to tolerate it’s routine subjugation and humiliation, and sadly, since 2014, Scotland’s devolved Government has shown itself neither able nor willing to stand firm in defence of Scotland’s rights, interests, and sovereignty.

    Sturgeon’s SNP has tied Scotland’s hands behind it’s back. They’ve allowed Scotland’s sovereign democracy to imprisoned by the paltry Section 30 of the 1998 Scotland Act, because Sturgeon’s self important SNP behaves as if the Scotland Act was the written Constitution of the Scottish Nation, which it most certainly is not.

    The SNP is not defending Scotland. The SNP is embracing, and indeed facilitating, Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation and that is a total dereliction of their responsibility. Yet our SNP politicians have the gall to insist the lies and fallacies of the Union must not be disputed, our rigged and flawed ephemeral democracy must be ascendant over our lawful constitutional rights, the dilution of our culture, and the routine propagandising and indoctrination of our people must be tolerated.

    Well not in my name. The SNP has become no more noble or trustworthy than the Parcel O’ Rogues who sold out Scotland in 1707. They ignore mandate after mandate from the people, and betray Scotland’s constitutional rights every second they remain subdued and complicit with the fallacies of a Union which has ceased to exist everywhere except in the minds of Scotland’s elected representatives. Funny coincidence that they’re the ones on the payroll.

    If they won’t use Scotland’s Constitution to defend Scotland, then Scotland must use it’s Constitutional to impeach and depose this cowardly, ineffective shower of charlatans and resurrect a true and Constitutionally adroit Scottish Parliament to defend our Nation.

    Scotland’s Constitution was written with weak and ineffective leadership in mind…

    ” Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule.

    Scotland should take its lead from the Scottish Sovereignty Research Group, not the failed and indolent SNP. Democratic ratification can quite properly come later, once the Constitution which makes our democracy sovereign has been defended and resurrected to it’s rightful ascendency. It is a lie to say the International Community will only respect a Referendum. You hear me? A lie. When did Chagos Islanders have their Referendum? How many Nations are recognised which don’t even have democracy?

    Better yet, adopt the ALBA way, and use Scotland’s Constitutional leverage to turn the next UK General Election into a Plebiscite Election on Independence. I trust Alex Salmond. A genuine statesman, Scottish patriot, and strategic visionary who puts the fear of god into the vindictive UK Establishment.

  376. Robert Hughes says:

    Christ ! A couple of days of – to my mind excellently written/fascinating – posts on Scottish History and * some * are screaming for the heidy to come and evacuate the classroom and close the school .

    Shall we add our own history to the growing list of proscribed subjects ?

    In the vacuum created by the absence of any momentum towards Independence from those with – they imagine – all the time in world ie the petit bourgeois quasi-colonial administration , reminders of a time in our history when there were actual leaders prepared to make and take difficult decisions and act upon them is completely relevant : even if the comparison between those times and the present are a cause for despondency

    ” Devolution ” takes on more than a linguistic similarity to ” De-evolution ” when we consider the vast gulf – not only in time and circumstance – between King Robert The Bruce and Baron Peter de Pishheart .

    WTF happened ?

  377. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Arse by name… 8.59 am

    Dozens? Good to see your grasp on mumbers is on a par with your ability to mount a cogent argument. Stun us wi’ another. Don’t you have a moon to howl at?

  378. Hatuey says:

    “No wonder most of the adults have left the building.”

    I’ve got the conch…

    It feels more like the teacher has left the classroom and some little self-appointed teacher’s pet thinks he’s the natural successor.

    People have always discussed Scottish history and things like Gaelic words on here. It’s not my thing but that’s okay.

  379. I see the MOD has joined the Stonewall protection racket,

    `name, rank and pronoun`

    `Don`t tell him your pronoun Pike`

  380. Andy Ellis says:

    @Robert Hughes 9.14 am

    Fascinating as the minutiae of Scottish history may be, the question surely is why is it relevant here, why now, and (irrespective of the entirely justifiable argument of “art for art’s sake) so fucking what?

    Dozens of other countries have achieved independence without sitting around navel gazing and coming out wi’ all this misty eyed “wha’s like us…jis’ look at our glorious past/Declaration/Claim of Right/kings list going back to the year dot” bullshit. If folk want to discuss early medieval history doubtless their’s a time and place for it, but is it really here? Aren’t there more important and pressing issues to address?

    The international community and instiutions don’t give a shit about our glorious past. They didn’t tell the Slovenes they wouldn’t recognise their independence because they had no 300 year old Claim of Right. They didn’t refuse to accept Slovak independence because they’d never been an independent country before. They didn’t tell Montenegro to think again because it was in a union with Serbia.

    WTF Happened? Folk got bored with obscurantists hi-jacking the place to promote their fringe hobby horse issues. The views of the nutter cabal infesting BTL here in the past few weeks aren’t even representative of a small part of the movement, still less of “soft No” voters or the population as a whole. Of course they’re entitled to their views: nobody is trying to silence them, we’re just sick of them acting like they’re relevant or worthy of anyone with two brain cells not pointing at them and laughing.

    I find Scottish history fascinating, but bloviating about how many hundred monarchs are on some kings list doesn’t get us a scintilla closer to defeating the Sturgeonistas or achieving independence. This isn’t the time or the place, it’s just a sad reflection that folk are easily distracted and that most of those whose contributions were worth anything have given up due to the moon howlers being given free rein.

  381. Dan says:

    People are talking about stuff I don’t want to talk about so they should shut up and the site should be closed… wah wah wah moonhowling roaster natavist anti-“vax” climate change denial wah wah wah.

    COP a load if this.

  382. Andy Ellis says:

    @Hatuey 9.51 am

    I’m not appointing myself anything. I’m as entitled to contribute as anyone else until and unless Stu says otherwise or pulls the plug on the whole place I suppose, same as anyone else.

    The site always had some latititude about being off topic, and was famously loathe to kick the nutter Cameron B Brodie in to touch until he became pretty unbearable even to those who had previously defended him.

    I understand that the zoomer fraternity in here don’t like being reminded that their pet projects are anethema to the Rev Stu as well as to many others who support this site. I just think it’s passing strange that they now feel emboldened to spread their shit around with the wild abandon of farmer Giles on ketamine with an overloaded muck spreader.

    It doesn’t make me the teachers pet (what are you….10 years old FFS?), or indicate that I’m trying or would want to appoint myself as a successor. If the treatment Stu and other high profile bloggers and journalists in the movement have received tells us anything it is that you have to devote a lot more time, energy and resources to doing it than I’d want to.

    The place will of course be missed, but like any other such project sometimes the kindest thing to do is out it out of its misery. Again, it’s telling that the usual suspects will be jumping to paint it as the opinion of “not a real nationalist”/Alba infiltrator/Sturgeonista stooge/MI5 agent or whatever the voices in their heads tell them.

  383. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 10.17 am

    Unsurprising of course that you’d be leading the charge of hard of thinking brigade.

    People can talk about anything they want. The link you post isn’t in the least germane because Robin McAlpine clearly isn’t a climate change denier. The point being made is that (much like in the case of the late unlamented CBB’s contributions) the fact that much of the content of the worst moon howlers IS fringe nutterdom. Most folk can and will do the sensible thing and point and laugh at their woo woo. That doesn’t mean however that their derailing of this place is acceptable, still less a good thing, even if Stu has signalled that the whole place is likely to be switched off in due course.

    Leaving the floor open to fringe nutters to soil the nest by posting their crank views is a sad end. It’s a shame there isn’t an alternative: I see quite a few of the same names on other blogs pedalling the same snake oil. I have my doubt any of them will ever have the reach or influence this place used to have, but then this place used to give such folk short shrift.

    O tempora, o mores indeed.

  384. Dan says:

    @ Andy Ellis

    As you’re so quick to bring what Stu has previously stated to support or defend your position Stu has stated he has no argument in looking at the matter of temporary residents in Scotland having voting rights in determining our future.
    Is your position aligned with what Stu has stated, or are you adamantly against this proposal?

  385. wull says:

    Many thanks for the correction, Benhope @ 10.44 – what you are pointing out is not pedantry. Factual accuracy is indeed important, and you are quite right to point out my mistake.

    Avignon is now in France, but it wasn’t at that time. It was an enclave belonging to the Papal States. The Pope was ‘Bishop of Rome’ and ruler of these states. Technically, therefore, he was still within his own domain while in Avignon.

    This in no way changes the fact that you are absolutely right: geographically, the Arbroath document was taken to Avignon, and delivered there. It was not taken to Rome. The copy that was delivered may have ended up there – I really don’t know if it did or not, but if it did it would simply have been transported there when the Papacy moved back to Rome, as part of the Papal archives.

    Factual accuracy matters not only in history but also in political discourse, and to ‘political discourse’ in the widest sense, in any age, and at any time. Those on here calling for Rev. Stu to close Wings down altogether are making a political point, in the wide sense, which they are entitled to do.

    They want Wings completely closed, and one must wonder why. They might be right – and if Rev. Stu decides to do that I am sure we will all respect his decision, because it’s his site, not ours, and his right to decide. At the same time, in regard to those pressing for such a shut-down, one must also wonder who (which side?) profits from such total closure.

    It is interesting that one of their main reasons for promoting this line is because some of the posts currently concern aspects of Scottish history which some posters regard as still relevant to Scotland today, and indeed to the issue of Scottish independence. The notion of precedent is important in law. So too is the idea that an independent Scotland will have to have a written constitution. Constitutions are not just written out of thin air: historical precedent and historically articulated principles play an important part in their formulation.

    Insofar as the ‘sovereignty of the people’ was first articulated in written form during the Bruce monarchy, and insofar as it continued to be a key idea from there on in the further development of Scottish legal and constitutional history, right up to the present day, various questions arise.

    In regard to closing down the site because some posters show an interest in such historical facts, the most important question might be the following: Would it be helpful or unhelpful to the cause of Scottish independence to forget the Scottish provenance, and indeed the specifically Scottish origin, of this key constitutional idea? Who would profit from such forgetfulness? Would it serve the Unionist cause which (especially nowadays) seems to tell Scots that their nation has no history, or none worth telling? Or, alternatively, would the total suppression of Scottish history, even its key moments, bolster the independence movement and further its cause? If so, how?

    No one is saying that history – including Scottish history – is everything, only that it is something. Nor is anyone misty-eyed about it. Nor is history mere antiquarianism. Obviously, there are indeed people for whom history means nothing, except maybe the arousal of a terrible memory of the total boredom that descended upon them in their school days when they had the misfortune to have very poor, very dull and indeed quite awful teachers of history inflicted upon them.

    I have every sympathy for people who suffered such misfortune, and don’t blame them at all for their antipathy towards the subject. It is not their fault, but that of the teachers to whom they were subjected. I also have a certain sympathy for those who are not historically minded, and don’t understand the past’s relevance to the present and the future. I might regard that as a defect in their understanding of reality but can still sympathise: we all have blind spots, limited interests and deficiencies in our knowledge. Me too – even first of all.

    However, for those who do not see the relevance of such posts, all they have to do is scroll past them, not use them as an excuse – or supposed reason – to shut down the site. There may be other reasons which would lead Rev. Stu to close down the remains of what is still his site, but I doubt very much if comments on historical aspects of the matter of independence will be one of them.

    Those who are so adamant that it should be must be fairly recent readers of wings, and contributors to its btl comments. Wingers who have been here for a bit longer will remember lively historical debate, and information (as well as apt contemporary comment) being provided by quite a few of the older hands in the btl section. I need only mention the name of Robert Peffers as an example.

    As far as I know, Rev. Stu never pulled any of their comments, and certainly not on the grounds that Scotland’s history, and various issues arising therein, were somehow necessarily irrelevant to gaining Scotland’s independence.

    If that was the case then, why should it suddenly cease to be the case now? Of course, it is understandable if newcomers (or latecomers) to this site do not know anything about its history. Especially if they think the history of everything, and anything, is irrelevant.

    But if Scotland has no history, how can Scots, and Scotland, ever claim that it should be an independent nation?

    As I said, or more correctly asked: who does it profit to suppress Scotland’s history? Especially those key moments of Scottish history which are still relevant to her constitution? And, indeed, to the reality that she is and remains a historical nation, in continuity with her past, and looking forward to her future!

  386. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 10.46 am

    I stated yonks ago that I could see merit in discussions about agreeing changes to the franchise which sought to exclude obviously temporary residents. Indeed I even said I could see an argument for advocating a short period like 24 months as they had in e.g. the referendum in Montenegro. It still pre-supposes justifying why it is necessary, and in my view fails to answer the initial rebuttal in Rev Stu’s twitter thread some months ago.

    Of course it suits the moon howling MO to insist that anyone who disagrees with their woo woo nativism is advocating that anyone who flew over Scotland or once had a day trip there will be entitled to vote. Same old, same old.

  387. Hatuey says:

    “If the treatment Stu and other high profile bloggers and journalists in the movement have received tells us anything it is that you have to devote a lot more time, energy and resources to doing it than I’d want to.”

    I think there’s slightly more to it than that, Andy, and maybe not knowing that is your biggest problem.

    I enjoyed Robin Mcalpine’s latest but he knows that his solution wouldn’t make a bit of difference unless other much more impactful countries followed suit;

    “Insulate houses, move to electric vehicles, build more renewable energy and energy storage, change how we produce food, rewild Scotland, change our pattern of consumption and stop burning oil and gas. That’s it. That sorts Scotland’s climate change impact almost completely.”

    I’m not a climate change denier. My position on it is much the same as my position on covid-19 — I’ll go along with whatever the majority of experts say, on the basis that I’m not smart enough to form a meaningful opinion myself.

    Of course, we can’t do that blindly, and we should kick and question experts every step of the way. On covid, for example, a lot of what the so-called “moon howlers” said about the vaccine was proven to be valid and quite correct.

    I believe we should always listen to the critics and those who question accepted wisdom and it worries me when everywhere I look these days I see people trying their best to stifle and silence those who disagree with them.

    I’m simply not as confident about the relationship between manmade CO2 and climate change as I am about say 2 and 2 making 4. Sorry about that. The truth is I’m not 100% sure 2 and 2 makes 4 either — it seems to make 4, though, and I haven’t been able to disprove it, so I’m pretty confident.

    The reason I’m not as confident about climate change is that I don’t know how it would be possible to disprove the relationship, falsifiability being central to the scientific method. What are we to expect in terms of weather and climate, assuming the theory is true, over what timeframe, and if the outcomes are radically different to the expectations can we bin climate change theory?

    When the term “global warming” was removed from the strap line and replaced with “climate change” at least one of my eyebrows went north. Why did they change it? Is it because the theory can’t be used to predict future weather and climate patterns and warming isn’t guaranteed? If so, it can’t be falsified, and you really don’t have a theory.

  388. Dan says:

    @ Andy Ellis

    Ok, with that said why don’t you engage in merited discussions about the subject and consider the range of views held by folk rather than relentlessly pushing the blood and soil natavist line.
    You are just one individual who has recently returned to Scotland. You would do well to listen to and take onboard the input of some of us that have spent many years interacting with the Scottish public and hearing their views first hand and understanding their lived experiences.
    I have to question why you are so quick to hurl derogatory abuse at folk who have been doing as much as they can and significant personal cost to promote Scotland returning to being a self governing nation.

    Wings and many of those that comment btl have been ahead of the curve on so much of what has transpired over recent years. Yet you castigate these alert folk and think the wider YES movement is better informed. FYI I know of folk in charge of a YES group who still think and promote both votes SNP as the way forward, or others that wouldn’t adapt to what we saw playout over the Salmond matter, Self ID, and Hate Crime bills, and they still think everything is just fine.
    If these groups lack the awareness and tactical nouse to be dynamic enough to get with the program then you maybe put just a little too much faith in the wider YES movement’s credentials over those that have been on the ball and who you now call roasters.

  389. Anyhoo,

    was having a discussion on social media last night,

    were the Picts ethnically the same as Caledonians, were they both indiginous to British Isles

    the Scots are ethnically different from Pict/Caledonian having travelled/emigrated from central Asia/eastern Europe along the Atlantic coast,

    having had my DNA tested and was expecting to be ethnically Pict/Caledonian it turns out i am ethnically a Scot with most of my DNA markers from the Basque region some Scotland/Ireland and some small % from Sythia,

    which scientifically proves the Scots Historiography in the Dec of Arbroath.

  390. Dorothy Devine says:

    “Now, I have other more important stuff to do than play whack-a-mole with folk I no longer have any time or (for the most part) any respect for’

    And still here!

    And advising close down but remaining prolific in his own input.

  391. Andy Ellis says:

    @wull 10.48 am

    1) “They want Wings completely closed, and one must wonder why.”

    Well no, I’d prefer if the site stayed open, but can quite understand his motivation for saying he was likely to pull the plug: I’m hardly alone in that opinion. I personally think given the direction of travel “’twere well it were done quickly”. The descent of the BTL discussions and free rein for various fringe nutters in my view does the memory of the site no favours, and certainly appears to do precisely nothing to advance the cause. You and others are of course free to disagree. Nobody is stopping you.

    It is however par for the course that folk like you seem TOTALLY incapable of discussing such issues without imputing the worst motives on to those you disagree with: it can’t simply be that we disagree, it must be for some nefarious motivation. It’s a tired and intellectually dishonest tactic we often saw from the yoons and British nationalists during #indyref1. It is sad to see those on our own side stooping to such tactics. Perhaps that’s where social media has brought us: it appears to be much better at generating. heat than light.

    2) “Constitutions are not just written out of thin air: historical precedent and historically articulated principles play an important part in their formulation.”

    That’s true, but not really relevant. Many countries have become independent with none of Scotland’s history, none of its constitutional background. I don’t disagree that history, precedent and principles are important and interesting, the issue was whether this was the time and the place, and particularly whether the volume was appropriate. We’re allowed to disagree about that too. It doesn’t make those disagreeing with you less committed to independence, it just means we think you’re misguided doing it here at this particular point, and that in the end it contributes to the feeling that things here have run their course.

    If the BTL comments are devoting a large part of their space and time to discussing medieval Scottish kings lists and historical precedent which – whilst interesting in and of itself can probably be better done elsewhere – then it tells us everything we need to know about why were further away from independence now than in 2014. Too many Scots are happy to dwell on picking over the scabs historical grievance and couthy “wha’s like us” platitudes than actually organising for change.

    3) “Those who are so adamant that it should be must be fairly recent readers of wings, and contributors to its btl comments.”

    Nope been around for a while. Can’t say I recognise you though.

    4) “But if Scotland has no history, how can Scots, and Scotland, ever claim that it should be an independent nation?”

    If the only criteria for achieving independence was “having a history”, the UN wouldn’t have almost 200 members. Many peoples have no history of independence, or their independence was centuries in the past before they sought to reassert it. Unionists and imperialists everywhere are happy to use the line that a people seeking independence weren’t entitled to it, because they’d never been independent in the past, or weren’t a “real” nation: the Magyars did it to the Slovaks, the Spaniards do it to the Catalans etc., etc.

    The plain fact is, the colourful history of Scotland as an independent nation, our centuries as a separate state, our unique constitutional stance vis-a-vis the Declaration of Arbroath, the Claims of the Right, the very fact our ruling class railroaded a union with England through…none of these really signify anything to the international community in terms of the here and now. They just think the Scots are all talk and no action: not only are we one of the few nations in history to voluntarily give up our independence and meekly accept that unequal settlement for 300 years, we’re one of the few who had an open goal to simply tick a box in an uncontested ballot and vote to stay united.

    I’ve spoken to many – particularly European – friends, acquaintances and work colleagues over the years since #indyref1. Almost without exception they think we simply lack the political courage required for independence and are in the end too happy with the certainties of the UK, however dysfunctional. We’re a codependent people.

    Raking over the coals of the past isn’t going to bring the declaration of the Scottish republic closer.

  392. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dorothy Devine 11.27 am

    Another of those who well illustrates the problem. I never said I wasn’t ever going to post again. I visit and post less: it just depends what’s going on. I can’t be arsed even interacting with the worst of the moon howlers, because pig’s ears will never become silk purses.

    Your entire contribution here seems to be cutting and pasting one throw away remark I made that you like to misinterpret. You patently have nothing else of value to say or contribute, just return like a dog to its vomit to the same thing over and over again.

    It isn’t necessary to look any further than contributions like yours to see why it might be a good thing for Stu to pull the plug sooner rather than later. Doubtless you can find someone else to troll then.

  393. sarah says:

    @ Scot Finlayson: the Scythian link is very interesting. Hitherto I have skipped over that section of the Declaration – no longer!

  394. Hatuey says:

    Anyway, getting back to reality and the things that matter, I see that the Scottish football team called Rangers has recorded a £23 million loss in its accounts. Wtf?

    How can a business that normally has a turnover of something like £40 million, record a £23 million loss and continue to exist? That’s bananas. Yes, I know it was a bad year with the pandemic and all but apparently they still managed to take in £20 million in ticket sales. I assume they also took money from Sky and advertisers, etc.

    And they won the league FFS.

  395. sarah says:

    O/T BDTT: Crichd has gone peculiar and no longer lets us watch footie. Cricfree is dodgy too. Is Crichd still working for you?

  396. Dorothy Devine says:

    BDTT , regrettably I won’t be present today – far too busy trolling the infestation- however I wish you all a great reunion and should Ronnie , Ian B , Cactus and Macart be present please to give them a big hug from me!

    Have a good one despite the weather!

  397. Dorothy Devine says:

    Streuth ! Shouldn’t have mentioned the prickly plant!

  398. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 11.19 am

    In the end Dan I don’t believe the discussion IS merited. Not all point of view or arguments are of equal merit or worth. There IS an argument to be had that the 2014 franchise can be looked at and possibly changed, the problem for those making it however is that they still, after several months, haven’t answered the basic questions Stu asked them in his original twitter thread:

    1) what justifies abandoning the 2014 pattern? (Why now? What is different? Why was civic nationalism right when we agreed the franchise in 2012 but wrong now?)
    2) Isn’t it morally wrong? (Excluding non native born Scots)
    3) Do you agree that: “The Scotland you’d be trying to sell people under that franchise is a very different place to the one we were advocating in 2014, and very much for the worse.”? If not, why not?
    4) Isn’t it self defeating? (Won’t it lose you as many votes as it potentially gains?)

    I have listened to the output. I find it without merit. Much of it actually sickens me. Of course, I agree that not ALL of it is from really repulsive blood and soil nativists and nationalists, but some of it certainly is, and I’m afraid I think the majority buying in to the franchise change line are tacitly enabling them. You may not like that analysis, but that’s just tough I’m afraid…it’s my honestly held view. The people holding these views are as much of a disappointment to me, and sicken me as much, as the folk on our “own” now pushing the TRA extremist and TWAW line and attacking Joanna Cherry and others.

    Please for the love of God get over yourself about equating calling eejits “moonhowlers” as abuse. We’re grown ups. Worse things happen at sea. Have you seen some of the verbal abuse and threats to “meet me outside” I’ve had for pointing and laughing at these roasters? Away and give yourself a shake after you unknotted yer panties. Most of these individuals would have been given short shrift before with respect to the issues generally discussed: that of course was before some of them revealed themselves to be fans of blood and soil nationalism, anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers. the only upside is that few if any have stooped supporting TRA nonsene!

    I have no faith in the wider Yes movement’s credentials. You’ve misunderstood me altogether if you think so. That doesn’t come as a particular surprise.

  399. Grouse Beater says:

    “There IS an argument to be had that the 2014 franchise can be looked at and possibly changed, the problem for those making it however is that they still, after several months, haven’t answered the basic questions Stu asked them in his original twitter thread.”

    The same argument on the passing of time affecting statistics applies to Stuart Campbell’s repeated challenge now out of date, the demographics have altered. It follows if you argue some revision is needed to a referendum franchise fit for restoring a nation’s independence, nothing should be blocked from discussion.

    Reducing it to pious outrage is dumb and counter-intellectual.

  400. vlad (not that one) says:

    @wull 10:48
    Would it be helpful or unhelpful to the cause of Scottish independence to forget the Scottish provenance, and indeed the specifically Scottish origin, of this key constitutional idea? Who would profit from such forgetfulness? Would it serve the Unionist cause which (especially nowadays) seems to tell Scots that their nation has no history, or none worth telling? Or, alternatively, would the total suppression of Scottish history, even its key moments, bolster the independence movement and further its cause?

    Well said. Of course, tampering with history in order to suit current political agenda is nothing new. Milovan Djilas (once high ranked Yugoslav communist, later turned dissident) allegedly commented that the hardest thing for a Communist was to predict the past.

  401. Republicofscotland says:

    “In the end Dan I don’t believe the discussion IS merited. Not all point of view or arguments are of equal merit or worth. There IS an argument to be had that the 2014 franchise can be looked at and possibly changed,”

    Mr Ellis @12.45pm.

    I was wondering how long it would take for you to start spouting this drivel again after the eye opening SSRG article over on Yours For Scotland, that all but ruled out the need for another franchise.

  402. Dan says:

    …Andy Ellis says: at 10:57 am

    I stated yonks ago that I could see merit in discussions about agreeing changes to the franchise which sought to exclude obviously temporary residents.

    Andy Ellis says: at 12:45 pm

    In the end Dan I don’t believe the discussion IS merited.“…

    You keep referring back to Stu’s twitter thread. Aye, great, a thread on a shite platform that many aren’t on, and only allows limited number of characters in tweets for those that are still on that site that banned Stu. Why that’s the ideal platform to thrash out the subject. Not!
    Plenty folk have actually responded and addressed all of the points of that twitter thread btl though. That you fail to acknowledge that input and try to whitewash it out of history comes as no surprise seeing you are so “alert” that you don’t even recall input from the long term btl poster called wull…

    You really are a piece of work as you appear to put more effort into castigating other folk than actually constructively debating the points they raise.

  403. Republicofscotland says:

    For those of you who missed the SSRG’s way out of this union, in a quick fashion, that doesn’t require giving the franchise to anyone who has spoken the word Scotland at some point in their lives, here it is.

    A wee snippet.

    “There is still a way out. In September, the SSRG published and sent to all SNP and Alba MPs, and SNP and Green MSPs a perfectly legitimate and legal means to achieve independence. Under this proposal, Scottish MPs as party to the bilateral 1707 Treaty of Union vote to withdraw from it, and pro-independence MSPs would vote to confirm the Scottish Parliament as the sole representative of the sovereignty of the Scottish people.”

    “We also recontacted EFTA in October, and asked if this scenario was pursued, could Scotland join? They rapidly responded that EFTA membership for Scotland is essentially an open door, as long as the Scottish government has the competency to sign international treaties, and the powers to abide by them.”

    “This conversation affirmed that Scotland could have joined EFTA if the May elections had been used as a plebiscite on full independence, and still can if the SSRG strategy is pursued. This would allow Scotland to rejoin the European Economic Area (single market), and seek recognition as a sovereign state under international law, which it will achieve if the reasons are explained carefully to the international community. The UK has never been weaker and more internationally reviled than it is now, and the SSRG has it on good authority that many nations would rapidly recognise Scotland as an independent state. But Scotland has to do it for itself, no one else can.”

  404. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Here’s a very nice video that the US delegation did as a preparation for the COP26.

    Eating and drinking in Scotland… 🙂

  405. paul says:

    If I remember, the electoral roll was quite different both sides of 2014.

    As westminster seems determined to implement voter id (even though postal votes are the greater unaddressed problem) why should we not consider our franchise?

    Born or 5 years of NI would be acceptable to me.

    We are talking National rather than regional.

  406. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 2.02 pm

    The answers don’t answer the question tho’. they make broad brush assertions about being swamped by the number of incomers which have no evidence, because they aren’t backed up with any analysis of how people will vote, or who these people are. Where’s Stu’s original points were posted is much less relevant than the content surely?

    None of the nativists have successfully answered the basic issues. Civic nationalism is just to be jettisoned because “native born” Scots can’t be arsed to vote for their own independence in sufficient numbers. I bet all the moon howlers would be quite happy if a slight No majority amongst “pure bloods” was turned in to a Yes vote by for example EU citizens and other furriners in Scotland deciding to vote Yes.

    It’s the arguments that are weak and deserve castigation. When the moon howlers dish it out they should expect to take it too. Look at some of the other inputs from your nativist mates and try and tell me they’re trying to constructively debate points. Their preferred response is simply to try and other those disagreeing with them either as closet britnats, closet SNP supporters, MI5/ 77 Brigade operatives, or like Gareth Wardell, turn on someone who had been nothing but supportive of him and come up with some weird attacj that I’d been sending Stu Campbell emails about him, then refusing to retract when called out for it.

    There are definitely plenty of “pieces of work” contributing Dan and unsurprisingly most of them are quite happy to troll and abuse from under their bridges like the snivelling anonymous cowards they almost invariably are.

  407. Republicofscotland says:

    We have the key to the door to unlock this union and could just walk through into the sunlight and new beginnings, where the international world awaits us, so what’s stopping us? Sadly our very own supposedly indyminded FM and her clique along with the Greens are holding us hostage in this union.

    The exit has always been there we just couldn’t see it, but since 2014 its become clearer and clearer, and now the door is in full view to Scots, however the person we’ve chosen to open the door now doesn’t want to, and we are now actively being told that the door isn’t there, that it was all just an illusion on our behalf, and that we should leave it to to our representative who holds the key to find the door, whilst we get on with our lives within this onesided union.

    This in now the dilemma we face as a nation, we know where the door is and we have the key, but what we don’t have is a FM with courage and determination to use it, to rid us of this union forever.

    The Door and the Key.

    “It is not too late for Scotland to rapidly become independent and join EFTA, if the SSRG route to independence is pursued. We have been meticulously refining this proposal for months, getting input from academics and international law experts. We have concluded that nothing in the UK unwritten constitution prevents the SNP at Westminster withdrawing from the archaic and scandalously sectarian 1707 Treaty of Union, the terms of which have been breached on many occasions.”

    ” In Holyrood the SNP and Green MSPs could then affirm the supremacy of the Scottish Parliament and the sovereignty of the Scottish people, rather than the ‘Crown in Parliament’ at Westminster. We at the SSRG, and we suspect the Scottish people more generally, would be incredulous if this opportunity were not seized, particularly by SNP MPs and MSPs as they have the pro-independence majority. That’s what they were elected to do, so they should hesitate no further.”

  408. Andy Ellis says:

    For all those “bigging up” the SSRG proposals, which whilst interesting still seem to need a fair bit of work and explanation, how do they know that their plan will attract international recognition?

    Aren’t they putting the cart before the horse? Even assuming the SSRG could persuade SNP MPs and MSPs to buy in to their proposals (good luck with that one!), what guarantee is there that the international community – which in the end is the only forum that matters – would accept the legitimacy of any such moves by pro-independence MPs and MPs? They were not after all elected on any platform of withdrawing from Westminster, of being entitled to withdraw from the Union without either a referendum or a plebiscitary election clearly indicating that a majority of Scots had voted for it.

    I’ll read the SSRG’s justifications with interest, and happily engage with what the constitutional experts they say they’ve been consulting are saying. One of the prime movers of the group is an office holder in the same Alba branch as me, so it will be interesting to see if it comes up at the next branch meeting on the 17th.

  409. Republicofscotland says:

    “the SSRG has it on good authority that many nations would rapidly recognise Scotland as an independent state.”

    Hmm.. this is a tricky one who to believe, a anti-Scottish independence mouthpiece that haunts this blog and is hoping for a yes losing rerun of 2014, or the SSRG, its a no brainer.

  410. Republicofscotland says:

    “SCOTS boxer Hannah Rankin is a world champion once again.”

    “Rankin – from Luss – defeated Sweden’s Maria Lindberg on a unanimous points decision in London on Friday night to win the vacant WBA world female super-welterweight title – and the IBO belt at the same time.”

    Well done Hannah, you’ve done Scotland proud.

  411. Andy Ellis says:

    “the SSRG has it on good authority that many nations would rapidly recognise Scotland as an independent state.”

    I’m sure many states will do so when and if it happens, but they’ll only do so if they believe it’s legitimate and supported by a clear majority of Scots. I’ve no reason to doubt the SSRG’s statements that they’ve engaged with many independent experts and authorities abroad, but for their plan to even be considered by “many nations” the SSRG are betting the farm on SNP and Green party MPs and MSPs behaving according to the plan for “repatriation of sovereignty”.

    That’s not impossible of course, but anyone who thinks it is at all likely given the current political environment needs to give me the name of the their dealer pronto, because they’re on some pretty strong stuff.

    Calling someone who disagrees with you an anti-Scottish mouthpiece, or saying they want Yes to lose a rerun of 2014 (not that we’re getting one anytime soon anyway) just makes you look like a crank: it’s the same kind of tactic we saw from the Daily Heil and Project Fear in 2014. It was lame them, it’s even worse now coming from a snivelling on line coward who purports to be on the same side.

    SSRG have work to do. I’ll happily discuss it with David Hendry and the others involved and if I’m convinced it’s a good strategy, I’ll support it, just as I support Alba as a founder member. Your motives and contribution are for you to justify. I wouldn’t want a troll like you within a country mile of the campaign.

  412. Dan says:

    @ Andy Ellis

    It’s just your opinion that the btl input by folk doesn’t answer the questions.
    To start with, that Westminster agreed the initial franchise used in 2014 should be of note, because clearly they use differing franchises and voting systems to maintain the status quo. Only an utter fool or uber naive can’t see this playing out.
    Enfranchising EU Nationals in the 2014 Ref but denying them a vote in the “Brexit” vote.
    If it was just a question for Scots then the whole Project Fear campaign launched by those external to Scotland shows interference.
    Since the “Political Awakening” of Scots since 2014 we’ve seen blatant breaching of electoral spending rules where the fine amounts to just the small price of doing “the business”.
    Let’s consider the work of Cambridge Analytica and Integrity Initiative in influencing and manipulating electoral outcomes.
    For being so concerned about democracy and what franchise we must use, you rarely broach these subjects which highlight how our democracy and electoral processes are corrupted.
    And soon to be Voter ID as mentioned above being brought in along with electronic vote counting by the likes of IDOX. Why are these efforts being made when for decades the electoral events have utilised members of the public of all political hues to be involved and give scrutiny to the process.
    Who’s paying for all these expensive machines to count votes when they will only be used a few times and need stored and maintained between voting events, before they will inevitably become outdated. Not forgetting in COP26 fortnight about all the materials and energy used to manufacture them when humans could do the job.

    I’m not for ditching “civic nationalism”, but I am very much for tightening up the qualifying criteria that allowed temporary residents to have a say in our long term future, and I’ve explained the logic I applied for my reasons previously.
    So if we are in agreement that “temporary residence” is a thing, ergo the discussion about what defines “permanent residence” is required.

  413. @sarah,

    yes i was quite surprised when i got my DNA results back,

    it took me aback a wee bit realising i am an immigrant to my own country.

    I was in the Basque region doing the Camino de Santiago (2014)and the people in the small villages and towns had a look of the small dark Scot (all the old guys looked like my Dad and uncles),and they eat haggis and play the pipes.

  414. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 3.13 pm

    OK, so presumably you agree it was a good thing that EU citizens were enfranchised for the 2014 and a bad thing they were excluded in the brexit referendum? I remember it being widely assumed that EU voters would vote heavily No due to the Project Fear line that we’d be out of the EU in the event of independence, yet the movement still accepted it was the right thing to do. Similarly I remember it being discussed at the time that enfranchising 16 & 17 year olds was probably a net loss to the Yes movement, as younger voters tended to vote in the same way as their parents. Again, nobody really questioned the inclusion of those voters, and from memory only the Tories opposed 16 & 17 year olds voting.

    Presumably enfranchising EU nationals in future will be a nett gain to the Yes movement, unless of course they are excluded on the basis they haven’t lived here long enough in the event a new criteria is introduced for. minimum residence criteria.

    The Scottish government specifically argued for a ‘territorial”, local election based franchise in 2012-14, partly to counter calls from Scots unionists and Scots resident in England to be allowed to vote in the referendum. Their argument was that it was both impractical organisationally, and went against internationally accepted precedence that referendums should be held on a territorial not birthplace basis.

    It’s fair enough to say” “lets exclude temporary residents and limit it to permanent residents”, but you need to explain how that’s going to be done. At present, the franchise is based on the electoral register. If you seriously want to convince people that we should change, let’s examine who you’re going to exclude in future who could vote in 2014. How are you going to track, police and enforce it?

    We could do as the Catalans do I suppose and say that in future a specific referendum electoral register will be made, which will be limited to those who fit the criteria agreed. That would then allow you to exclude the groups you feel are unworthy to be considered part of the “demos”, because they’re not part of the “ethnos”. Some categories will be easy of course: birth (but not if you’re living abroad?), lived in Scotland more than “x” years, paying takes, community charge, working in Scotland, but presumably there has to be some admin and checking involved.

    Doubtless some categories will be fairly unproblematic: most people would probably agree that students studying at Scottish universities who are normally resident elsewhere in the UK, but are on the register for other elections could be excluded. You could make a case for saying that nobody who has lived in Scotland less than “X” years should get a vote (Montenegro insisted on 24 months, but virtually no other countries since WW2 have done so, which means Scotland would already be doing something unusual).

    Presumably as someone who accepts civic nationalism, you’re not trying to exclude people who have moved here from other parts of the world…or perhaps you are? Whether you set any putative residence criteria at 2 years, or 5 or 10, you’re going to alienate a section of your support, and still face having to justify the decision to move the goalposts from the 2014 precedent.

    I don’t accept that you and others have made a convincing case that the change is necessary, or that even if we make a change that it needs to be more than trifling changes round the edges. I’m hardly alone in that view. More importantly however, you and others have to convince current No voters who will be considerably more suspicious of the change, and the international community which has a predisposition to referendums which are inclusive and territorial based, not exclusive and ethnically based. Good luck with that.

    So far, we’ve had no polling evidence and no support from any Scottish political parties or major political actors for the franchise restriction pitch. Not looking too good for the nativists is it?

  415. twathater says:

    The BALLOON is going to interogate David Hendry and if it meets with his approval he will possibly support it , he that knows the opinions and views of everyone will consider if it meets his opinion of what EVERYONE thinks he may allow it to go forward
    And ROS you are right the balloon wants the site shut down incase Stu wants to reactivate it and the balloon knows the impact the revival will have , and if the balloon hates the btl comments so much and disagrees with all the other bloggers why doesn’t he concentrate on his own blog ,
    Answer is nobody would go to his site ,so he has to hijack someone else’s site , what a boring balloon

  416. Andy Ellis says:

    @twathater 4.09 pm

    You and your posse just can’t help yourselves can you? Never knowingly play the ball when there’s a man to hack down. Surely any sensible Yes supporter would be wise to look at SSRG’s out put and interrogate those behind it? Luckily Mr Hendry is in the same Alba branch as me, so it shouldn’t present a problem. I’ve read the out put so far, and although it’s certainly an interesting staring point, I’m keen to know more. I know that probably a difficult concept for a low functioning troll like you to grasp, but we are where we are.

    I’m saying the exact opposite of your barely literate “he that knows the opinions and views of everyone will consider if it meets his opinion of what EVERYONE thinks he may allow it to go forward” quip. It probably sounded better in your head than when you tried to commit it to paper. Doubtless your lips were moving at the time, so maybe the spittle was obscuring your view?

    I hate what some of the BTL comments have become, and scorn the moon howlers making them. That’s why I think it’s probably time for Stu to pull the plug. I’d be quite happy if he subsequently resurrected the site or something similar. Hopefully the zoomers might all have toddled off to their own sub Siol nan Gaidheal nativist site? How about you all concentrate on that, vaccine denial or climate change denial or whatever your woo-woo of choice is?

    Folk are free to find my input boring, or scroll past it. Strange then that they keep interacting whereas trolls like you and the likes of Dorothy Devine spend most if not all of your time launching personal attacks on me rather than discussing actual issues, still less addressing any of the points raised.

    People might almost think it’s because somewhere there’s a bridge lacking its troll.

  417. sarah says:

    @ Scot Finlayson: it is nice to hear that you could see the connection to Scotland in the Basque faces.

    I am pretty sure that they attend Celtic music festivals in Brittany, Cornwall and here, being all Celtic peoples.

    And I think I have it correctly that archaeologists tell us that the Celts came to these islands circa 30,000 years ago from the Atlantic coast of Europe. So not a long time in the scale of things.

  418. Republicofscotland says:

    “SSRG have work to do. I’ll happily discuss it with David Hendry and the others involved and if I’m convinced it’s a good strategy, I’ll support it, just as I support Alba as a founder member.”

    Mr Ellis.

    I’m sure if Mr Hendry has had the misfortune to have read your protracted drivel in here for the past umpteen months on a plebiscite for everyone and their dogs, that he’ll be wise enough to body swerve you, if indeed you are a member of the Alba party, knowing now that you didn’t have a clue on how they wanted to exit this foul union other than giving the vote to anyone who has done a day trip to Scotland.

    If you are a representation of the calibre of Alba members (and I’m 99% sure that you are not) then we’re in big trouble.

  419. Andy Ellis says:

    @RoS 4.33 pm

    Aw mate, you’re just at the stage of embarrassing yourself now. I’ll happily post you a pic of my membership card, and my shiny new Founder Members badge. I’m on the Edinburgh Alba Official facebook group, and even voted for Mr Hendry at the AGM a few weeks ago when office bearers were being elected.

    You se “RoS” unlike you, I’m not a snivelling anonymous online troll without the courage to identify themselves so we can all identify you for the nasty piece of work you so undoubtedly are. Get back to us when you grow a pair though, won’t you….?

    Better yet, send me your contact details and I’ll send you that pic. You see, unlike you I’m not some no account blow hard happy to troll people safety from under my bridge.

  420. Dorothy Devine says:

    Mr Ellis , I dispute any personal attacks on you by me – I merely reminded you of your own words.

    You have hijacked this site and your interminable ‘ rightness’ is pissing off many of us.

    No personal attack – just a statement of fact.

    Different opinions have merit and excite debate , that is the intention of this indy site and many others.

  421. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dorothy Devine 5.01 pm

    Passing strange then Dotty that your entire output consists of cutting and pasting one throw away line I posted ages ago over, and over and over again.

    It’s you that’s interminable. Of course I think I’m right, it’d be a bit odd to post things I thought were wrong. I’m quite happy to debate, as my many responses above show.

    Unlike you however, I actually try to address issues and interact with what people say, rather than just post the same cheap shot over and over again and whinge that other people are hijacking the site.

    When you have something original, or better than cutting and pasting, do get back to us. Until then, I’ll give your input all the consideration it deserves. ‘K?

  422. Dan says:

    @ Andy Ellis

    I’d have preferred if the 2014 franchise had utilised the same restrictions on temporary residence that I’d like to see implemented if there is ever to be another referendum on Indy in the future. So I’ve been consistent in my views on the subject and will accept no accusations of just wanting to change the franchise now because it suits me.
    Pretty much all EU Citizens with settled or pre-settled status still have the freedom of movement to return to their own country should things here get shit enough for them to decide to do that, Scots don’t have that luxury.
    I’ve known plenty EU Citizens that only lived here temporarily and voted No, only to move back home after Brexit. In conversation they made it pretty clear they had little comprehension of what the vote meant for the future of Scotland and voted for their own self interest. Most hadn’t and many still don’t have a fucking clue about Scotland’s predicament anyway. So they are basically useful tools to be included or excluded in votes as manipulatable fodder at the wont of those in control of the power.

    Filtering of the electoral roll to include or remove certain categories of voter is done anyway for the various different levels of elections. It’s not beyond the wit of a human to also include a date check when filtering that ensures the duration of residency in a specific area of the UK is met.
    And any serious Party wanting Scotland to return to self-governing status should be monitoring the electoral roll through their Party’s own software programs that access the electoral roll database.
    So the majority of the policing of eligibility could be done relatively easily, along with activists using their local knowledge to further keep and eye on things.

  423. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 5.24 pm

    Yeah, political parties using their knowledge to “keep an eye on things” and police eligibility.

    What could possibly go wrong? 🙁

  424. Dan says:

    @ Andy Ellis

    You do know this happens already. How the fuck do you think the Conservatives manage to get their vote out with such consistency.
    SNP use their Activate system to hold canvassing data.
    But fuck it, you don’t like it so we can’t use the tool because of reasons and we let the opposition demolish us again.
    For all your yak, you’re really not much of the tactician…

  425. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 5.24 pm (part the second!)

    Hit enter too soon there…

    As to your preference having been for a different franchise even in 2012-14, that’s fair enough, but as Stu said in his original comments, the discussion was had then and a decision reached. It was a decision the vast majority of the movement were happy with, or at least not so unhappy with that it ever really became an issue. The britnats also accepted it as part of the Edinburgh agreement. you may personally have a “get out of jail free” card in that regard, but the movement as a whole doesn’t.

    The stark fact remains that the % of Scots residents who were not born here are only important because “we” the movement have failed to convince enough native born Scots to grow a pair. That % of New Scots has assumed importance because they are perceived to have been instrumental in swinging the overall vote from Yes to No: such complaints are often levelled e.g. against minority parties in situations where they hold the balance of power of course.

    The task of the broader movement should in my view be convincing more “Old Scots” to support independence, and ensuring we “turn” a decent % of “New Scots” who either voted No last time, or who don’t know/understand enough about the situation to make what we regard as the rational choice.

    I tend to agree with Stu and others that we aren’t going to see a referendum anytime soon, so perhaps the point is moot. But given that we might be in for a long wait for ANY progress, It’s as well to lay out the stalls now. If folk want to make the case for change, then fair enough. It’s up to them to convince the movement, the pro-indy parties and the international community that what they are suggesting is both proportionate and acceptable. I think you have an uphill struggle. Nothing I’ve seen in the months since Stu’s original posts has changed my mind, but doubtless there’s plenty of time to make the case.

    It’s surely much more likely in the short to medium term that the route to indy will be plebiscitary elections or some societal/constitutional crisis arises allowing the SSRG scenario to be enacted (I certainly can’t see the current SNP and Greens touching the SSRG’s proposals with a bargepole, can you? Who knows though…stranger things have happened if they get rid of Sturgeon and her minions I suppose?).

    Of course, if we go for that rout the franchise for Westminster or Holyrood elections will apply, so perhaps we should look at who we might exclude from that and advocate for a change. Sauce for the goose etc…?

  426. Cactus says:

    Hey Rev, I know I did me last official post of last, but…

    Here we are and everybuddy is here…

    Glasgow is rocking tonight.

    Hey Dorothy D.

    With thanks.

  427. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 5.53 pm

    I’m not much of a tactician, but you’re the one advocating for a measure that has the support of no political party, no groundswell of support in the broader movement, and no support from anyone of note in the movement except a few fringe cranks? Riiiiiight……

    If you want a “new franchise” make the case, convince people in the movement and the various parties and then ensure it becomes policy so we can do it right and have an agreed electoral roll specifically for future independence referendums overseen by an independent body. Parties shouldn’t be let near it.

    Good luck!

  428. Dan says:

    @ Andy Ellis

    That no Party is advocating a policy of simply restricting temporary residents from a vote of such importance says much for the quality of our politicians. It’s hardly a difficult sell, and from my experience oot n aboot have found many small c conservatives minded Scots have been tainted by the relentless anti-foreigner bias that culminated in “Brexit”. And they have reservations when they hear allowing any “foreigners” to interfere by having a vote in oor country. I know we need a degree of immigration but try selling that to folk that have been relentlessly brainwashed by MSM narratives.
    Much as some Scots are outward looking and accepting of others, the reality is that many are not.

    But that no “Pro-Indy” Party is considering this comes as no surprise because I can’t see any “Pro-Indy” Party that has the gumption and discipline to implement a policy to stop its politicians and activists from direct linking to unionists papers, thus promoting our opponents platform and voice, and giving them a revenue stream.
    Maybe if these eel like entities playing politics that are meant to represent us and free us from the corruption and tyranny of the Union stepped aside and let engineers do the job we’d be in a better place…

  429. Ottomanboi says:

    Scotland needs to be ahead of «the rest». Being like «the rest»,the current setting, is a journey to nowhere in particular.
    Next time you have a voting option, choose with great care. Cream is not the only thing that floats.

  430. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 6.41 pm

    If it’s not a difficult sell, then why is it so hard to either “convert” an existing party, or co-opt a new one then? Surely if there’s such a pent up demand amongst all these nativists then the new Fuil agus Ùir party will be a shoo in, no? All these small c conservative sorts who don’t like interfering furriners will lap it up. We’ve heard enough of them in here over the past few months right enough. Whether the kind of Scotland they want to construct is one that many of us would be happy to see realised is a different matter.

    If your cunning plan amounts to “let’s discipline / prohibit pro-indy party representatives and activists from direct linking to unionist papers or media” we’re probably in for a long wait. Appealing to these “engineers of independence” you talk of sounds a bit like waiting for a deus ex machina to deliver independence to folk who don’t have the gumption to vote for it themselves.

    Blaming the MSM is the cop out of all cop outs. The universally hostile MSM didn’t stop support for indy rising >15% between 2012 and 14 did it? And yet now we’ve been spinning our wheels for 7 years. Expecting appeals to the minority of nativists to reduce the franchise to push us over the line is an argument you and others are free to make, but whether it’s workable has to be open to considerable doubt, even if it weren’t morally wrong and politically counter productive.

    Have at it though. Obviously there’s no reasoning with those who have supped deep of the “we wuz robbed by the furriners” snake oil.

  431. Andy Ellis says:

    @Ottomanboi 7.32 pm

    Sadly it seems the differentiator for many here is to vote to exclude a good proportion of the folk who live here. They’d probably feel right at home with like minded friends such as Orban, Duda, and Le Pen? Small “c” conservatives I think Dan calls them? 😀

    I think they’ve already floated to the top, and they’re deffo not the cream.

  432. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    My son and I decided to join the march at the junction of Renfield Street and West George Street, intending to reach Glasgow Green.

    The front of the march appeared around 1.45pm. At 2pm, the heavens opened and the rain was bouncing of the pavies. Thankfully, it only last about 10-15 minutes.

    The AUOB section didn’t appear until around 3.50pm, which put the scuppers on Glasgow Green, as we had to be at the bus station at 16.30pm for the bus back to Dundee.

    We joined on the tail end of the AUOB contingent and marched to George Square, where we left the march at around 4.05pm, to walk up to the bus station, via a pint in Dow’s.

    The unusual thing I noticed, up to joining in, was that there were next to no police keeping up with the march. We only saw two “Community Liason” officers (blue vests) keeping up with the marchers, between the start of the march and the AUOB section.

    There were plenty of officers at the junctions but just standing there.

    Could this be a new policy for marches? No need to keep up with the march if there are enough “static” officers in place? At all the marches I have taken part in previously, the officers on the march were numerous, both blue vests and yellow vests.

  433. Dan says:

    Andy Ellis says: at 8:36 pm

    Sadly it seems the differentiator for many here is to vote to exclude a good proportion of the folk who live here. They’d probably feel right at home with like minded friends such as Orban, Duda, and Le Pen? Small “c” conservatives I think Dan calls them?

    Well only if that “good proportion” of folk are temporary residents… A situation which yourself and even Stu has stated could be thrashed out.
    But on you go, equate that position to the more extreme political elements in other lands as is your wont.

    As for your previous post at 8.26pm. Well you’re more than well aware the SNP have been captured, and the Greens well…
    So if you’ve got what were the two main “Indy” Parties that are so full of folk that can’t even use the dictionary definition of what a woman is to describe, eh, a woman, you’ve got to accept there’s not a great deal of hope for them displaying any critical and rational thought on how to increase support from the small c conservative middle ground by taking onboard their views rather than pushing genderwoowoo and the hate crime shiz.

    And I note you’re also trying to have a dig about me suggesting our pro-indy politicians follow a policy exhibiting a more forthright and disciplined approach in how they go about their campaigning, when you’ve previously agreed with me when I highlighted that the likes of Sinn Fein appeared more organised and disciplined on that subject.
    But again, fuck it, I guess you’re happy with the unionist press getting both the extra exposure and the revenues…

  434. Hugh Jarse says:

    I wouldn’t get your hopes up Brian, that style of policing is for a world wide audience.

    The more boisterous busy’s were well hidden, and probably got to play later anyway.
    Friends still in Niddrie informed me that 11 riot control vans turned up to the ritual 5th November battle with the YNT.
    A low scoring draw apparently.

  435. Andy Ellis says:

    @Dan 9.22 pm

    It rather depends which moon howlers we’re listening to doesn’t it? Some are suggesting a 10 year residence qualification for voting in a referendum, which would presumably amount to a fair few folk, yes? I’d reluctantly agree to moving away from the 2014 precedent on the basis that a decent case had been made and it was widely accepted by the movement as the right thing to do. I very much doubt that case will ever be successfully made.

    Seeking to exclude swathes of Scottish residents from participation in a vote on self determination on the basis that they aren’t Scottish enough, or might not vote the right way, is exactly the kind of politics populists like Orban, Dudek and others would recognise and support.

    I do accept that the SNP and Greens are a lost cause. That’s also why I think it’s very unlikely that the SSRG’s current plan to convince them to support their course of action will be successful, at least absent some sea change within both parties. I don’t see that happening, do you?

    Sinn Fein are indeed better at lots of things than our milquetoast nationalist…or should I say devolusionist? – parties. I’m just unconvinced by the whole “it’s the yoon MSM that the problem” line. I’m not happy about our MSM or its funding at all, but then that doesn’t really get us very far does it? Perhaps we get the media we deserve, much like we get the politicians we deserve.

    Now there’s a really frightening thought.

  436. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Andy Ellis.

    RE: MSM ‘clicks’.

    I saw a Twitter post from a prominent Alba member with a ‘pure’ MSM link and got in touch with her. She subsequently deleted that comment and replaced it with the “” link that I had generated from HER link and supplied her with.

    Yes, it’s slow work but if WE don’t do it, who will? Catchee monkey, or whatever…

  437. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Onnyhoo, I think this matter of replacing ‘pure’ links to MSM articles, with ‘’ links should be brought up at every Alba LACU meeting until it bites.

  438. Andy Ellis says:

    @Brian 10.08 pm

    I wonder how many clicks lost revenue it’ll take to offset the £3 million the SNP gave them?

    Aye, it could take a while right enough.

  439. sarah says:

    @ BDTT: good work with the archive links. And thanks for your report on the march.

  440. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    The method is simple…
    You have the page in your browser.
    You highlight and COPY (Control-C (Win) or Command-C (Mac)) the address in the URL bar. Usually starts with ‘https’.

    Go to…

    ‘’ and paste what you have copied into the “My url is alive and I want to archive its content” text box then hit ‘return/enter’. ‘’ will then do its job.

    If it has been already archived, the site will tell you. If not, ‘’ wil show you a page of text updating, as it captures the page. Just COPY the url from the ‘’ url bar, either the existing archived page or the one you’ve just archived (after the text page displays the newly archived page), then paste the address from the url bar into any comment you’re pasting anywhere.

    Don’t re-archive the page if it’s already been archived ‘X hours ago’!

  441. robertknight says:


    Static policing is only possible with enough boots on the ground and back up strategically placed at intervals along the route to be deployed as/when necessary.

    This week I’ve seen Kent, Durham, Staffordshire and City of London constabularies, plus Heddlu hailing from some part of Wales, swelling the Police Scotland ranks. No doubt there are other forces from South of the border in addition to those listed, but needless to say Police Scotland wouldn’t ordinarily have such strength in numbers at their disposal.

  442. Papko says:

    At Andy Ellis

    “it’s the yoon MSM that the problem”

    That is the constant mantra, but off course it does not hold.
    If we are to accept that SNP supporters are more savvy and use alternative media, online, blogs etc
    Then surely the 1.2million who voted SNP in May would have heard of Alba and its “most- famous-man-in-Scotland” leader, who garnered a paltry 38k all in.

    Likewise the circulation of the National is like 10k (which does tie in with the death of the Dead Tree Press).
    It reads like a student rag (not fair, I have read better student rags) and the fixation on the “I” word and the “FM” in every article would embarrass the Newspaper editors of North Korea!

    I have been arguing since the 19th September 2019 that the movement needs a proper post-mortem as to why they “lost”, and no one has ever attempted the painful task of analyzing and confessing to a single mistake.

    In fact am sure it was the “Vow what won it” yet another allusion to a Media stranglehold, yet never a mention of any shaky arguments which failed to convince.

    Faced with such conceit and such inability to learn, we are now faced with a movement hemorrhaging support and when the likes of the Rev throws in the towel, we know we are at the end of the road.
    Another movement may well arise in the 2030s, but this campaign is well and truly over.

  443. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Papko.

    You typed,
    “”Then surely the 1.2million who voted SNP in May would have heard of Alba and its “most- famous-man-in-Scotland” leader, who garnered a paltry 38k all in.”

    And why was the vote so ‘paltry’?

    Because the mantra had gone out to both the press and broadcast media that there should be no ‘reporting’
    of the ‘new kids on the block’, lest it damage the SNP establishment.

  444. twathater says:

    Old Andy Pandy trying the diversionary tactic of accusing others of what you are yourself (troll) This from a no mark that has only been on the site for about a year but has managed to INFEST the site with his civic nationalism bullshit aka let ANYONE decide Scotland’s future , THAT alone marks you out as a FAKE nationalist , but,but,but, the rev Stu says , The difference between you and the rev is he has proven his commitment to independence you on the other hand are just trying to HIJACK HIS blog

    It may come as a shock to you Andy Pandy but you are as inconsequential as the rest of us , you keep insisting that you know the views of everyone yet have never produced proof of that assertion

    Unfortunately for you the readership of the blogs who support a franchise reworking is increasing as the comments btl on them show , but there again you won’t visit those blogs and insist that those who support a revised franchise are a shower of moon howling nativist loonballs , as that would identify you as the unionist troll who DEMANDS anyone from anywhere can decide whether Scotland becomes independent or not

    If David Hendry and Mark Mc Naught have any sense they won’t listen to any ideas you have because they are bound to favour the unionist view

  445. Andy Ellis says:

    @Papko 11.01 pm

    “Faced with such conceit and such inability to learn, we are now faced with a movement hemorrhaging support and when the likes of the Rev throws in the towel, we know we are at the end of the road.”

    I’d need to see receipts for that claim that support is haemorrhaging: presumably it’ll show in polls? I’ve not seen any recently showing declines, altho’ they do seem stuck rather stubbornly where they’ve been for ages.

    Whether it’s the end of the road is another matter. The end of an era perhaps? It’s down to Scots voters in general whether the whole game’s a bogey.

  446. Andy Ellis says:

    @twathater 3.29 am

    Unsurprising post from the wee small hours when you were doubtless in your cups on coming down after a bad trip. Even so, if Daily Heil journalists were able to identify me as one of Rev Stu’s most avid supporters back in January 2014, and describe me as one of the more reasonable cybernats, I think we can see the quality of your research and what passes for your analysis.

    Try interacting with what people actually say not what the voices in your head or the most recent substance you’ve ingested spurs you to bash out on your spittle flecked keyboard ya roaster. I’ve never said I know the views of everyone, I’ve merely pointed out tht the moon howler prospectus is very much a minority view. If that’s wrong, you should easily be able to point to the evidence supporting your woo woo. You can’t….because there isn’t any. There IS however no evidence of any pro indy party supporting it, and vanishingly few fringe cranks in the movement have come out in support.

    Doubtless David Hendry and Mark McNaught are more reasonable people than you: but then they’re not snivelling anonymous online cowards too afraid to put their real name to their opinions either. That already shows they’re worth more than you. I wonder what the feel about nativist nutters labelling everyone who disagrees with them a unionist, and whether that’s helping the movement?

  447. `limiting the voting franchise in General Elections is ok but,

    limiting the franchise in independence referendums is not ok,`

    surely both or neither are ok.

  448. Andy Ellis says:

    @Scot Finlayson 9.15 am

    Neither are unlimited. The internationally accepted standard for self determination referendums is territorial. Virtually every comparable referendum since World War 2 has used a franchise based on residence, not on nativist criteria.

    Plans to restrict the criteria used in 2014 – unless they are pretty trifling to exclude obvious temporary residents like students studing at Scottish universities – are morally wrong, electorally self defeating, will jeopardise international recognition, and represent a betrayal of civic nationalist virtues.

    By all means make the case for regularising the franchise for both votes and for excluding 10’s of thousands of fellow Scots people on the basis you don’t think they are going to vote the right way: just don’t pretend it’s a democratic or progressive argument, because it just isn’t.

  449. Fionan says:

    It would be helpful if a number of people here btl could bring themselves to just ignore the troll. He will soon stop his slagging off anyone and everyone who disagrees with his inflated and often misplaced sense of rightness if everyone just scrolled on by. There is no point whatsoever to replying to him as it just encourages more of his nasty little tirades against those of us who truly want independence. The constant tit-for-tatting is utterly boring and counter-productive. We can still use this site as long as it lasts, to calmly discuss real issues of importance and not whether someone is a ‘moon-howler’ or not. You guys are really just wasting time and energy on a puerile pissing contest that is of no use to man nor beast. Please put your egos to bed and stop feeding the troll!

  450. John Main says:

    @Andy Ellis

    “Don’t pretend it’s a … progressive argument …”

    I’ve noticed you use the “P” word before Andy, and its use provides a window into your worldview, and where you have gone wrong.

    It’s progressive arguments and policies that have steered us down this cul de sac. It’s the abandoning of them that holds out the only hope of us ever being able to retrace our steps.

    Arguably the biggest question of our time goes something like this: If you take a geographic region and begin a process of replacing its population, do you change the fundamental human characteristics of that region?

    The only way anybody can answer “no” is to ignore the evidence of their own eyes and ears. But for anybody who never goes along their local High Street, they can check the historical record. For example, Stalin was so certain that the answer was bloody obvious that he engineered the replacements of millions of people. I wonder what the Russian word for “progressive” is?

    But to get back to the Indy argument. It’s not purple heather and tartan that made Scotland unique and distinctive, it was the outlook and beliefs of the people living here. It was their wish for control of their own lives and destinies by folk who shared the same outlook and beliefs that drove their thirst for Indy. My view is that your so-called “progressive” ideas and policies, and in particular the idea that Scotland has a viable future only through the importing of “new Scots”, have diluted that thirst past the point of return.

    Have to say Andy, I find it particularly telling that you are especially critical of Hungary, which is one of the few EU members to have woken up to the threat progressive policies pose to its own unique cultural identity.

    By all means continue to be progressive, Andy. You may even be in the majority. But don’t pretend it’s a position compatible with the drive for Scots Indy. It’s not.

  451. Hatuey says:

    “Police are investigating fraud allegations over £295,000 of taxpayers’ money given to the publisher of a book of Nicola Sturgeon’s speeches.“

    “A Scottish Government spokeswoman declined to comment on the police investigation.”

    I don’t want to spoil the surprise for anyone reading this, but for a couple of people I know this could be the perfect Christmas gift.

    Is there a Nicola Sturgeon calendar?

  452. Alec Lomax says:

    John Main – back to the kailyard.

  453. Republicofscotland says:

    It could be that Sturgeon’s giant fragile ego might be her undoing, if only.

    “They must be fully transparent over what checks were carried out at that time and why they believed it was still appropriate for public money to be given to the company who then published the book of Nicola Sturgeon’s speeches.”

    “The book includes a collection of the First Minister’s speeches given between November 2014 and February 2020 and is edited by Sandstone boss Davidson.”

  454. Hugh Jarse says:

    Usual ‘no comment whilst police inquiry..’ Hatuey from Government spokesbot, which is strange, as it’s stated neither Sandstone press or HIE have been approached by the police.

    Maybe they are waiting on COPFS deciding what evidence isn’t ‘relevant ‘ before pouncing.
    Getting the stories lined up.

    Sturgeons Watergate.

    All that £, for fake jobs, could have seen 10 apprenticeships to completion.

  455. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Andy Ellis at 4:28 pm yesterday.

    You typed,
    “@twathater 4.09 pm
    You and your posse just can’t help yourselves can you? Never knowingly play the ball when there’s a man to hack down.”

    At 8:55 am today, you typed,
    “@twathater 3.29 am
    Unsurprising post from the wee small hours when you were doubtless in your cups on coming down after a bad trip.”

    Suggesting that a contributor has been indulging in drugs because you don’t agree with their input is playing the ball?

  456. Hugh Jarse says:

    The collected speeches of chairperson Cow.
    Personality cult 1.01

    Inadequate lawyer, to demi-god.
    Calton jock is on to it.

  457. Republicofscotland says:

    As the West’s media mouthpieces bemoan that China, Russia and Iran’s premiers didn’t show up a COP26, the Palestinian delegation had their visas refused to attend the climate meeting.

    Scotland has no seat at the climate change table, just like Palestine.

    Meanwhile many fawned over the Israeli energy minister at COP26, due to no wheelchair access on transportation to venue.

  458. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Sarah.

    RE: streaming.

    At the moment, I have two working streams in separate tabs for the Dundee/Celtic game.

    In the first, I had to click on “click here to unmute” 4 or 5 times to put an end to the pop-up tabs and show the stream.

  459. Hatuey says:

    “It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.” (Machiavelli)

    Of course, from the perspective of a business, charity group, or other entity requiring or dependent on Government funding, it doesn’t really matter what you call their allegiance.

    On a personal level, quoting Machiavelli is a mini milestone and a sign of how bad things have gotten lately; I always thought The Prince was pretty crude and much too simplistic to be useful in the modern world.

    Remember, friends, there’s a whole world of unknown unknowns out there. The things you know and things you know you don’t know could be the tip of a large iceberg.

  460. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Sarah.

    Further RE: streaming.

    I couldn’t get those two links (11:28 am) to work in Chrome but they’re ok, here, in Firefox.

  461. Robert Hughes says:

    Re The Collected Vacuity of Nicla n Dime Turdgeon ….

    This is taking ” Vanity Publishing ” to it’s apotheosis and will be followed by a timely apologia along the lines of * wiznae me , a wiz singing auld Joe a lullaby ,greeting greetin Greta fur a bit a boax-tickin purity-by-association n generally bein as progressive as fuck , win’t a ? ”

    RoS . Watch yrsel mate , pointing out the despicable exclusion of the Palestinian Delegation to COPoutXXXXX ( with nary a murmur of protest from NSNP ) will likely elicit brickbats n cries of ” ANTI-SEMITISM ” from the usual quarters

    ” Remember, friends, there’s a whole world of unknown unknowns out there. The things you know and things you know you don’t know could be the tip of a large iceberg. ”

    Quite so Hatz .

    Fionan n John Main . 100% agree .

  462. Breeks says:

    Scot Finlayson says:
    7 November, 2021 at 9:15 am
    `limiting the voting franchise in General Elections is ok but,

    limiting the franchise in independence referendums is not ok,`

    surely both or neither are ok.

    I disagree Scot.

    There is a material difference between a voting franchise for a domestic issue internal to a Nation’s borders, and a non-domestic international issue, where there is a prerequisite that the international mandate is a true representation of the nation, thus be citizens by nationality, not necessarily nationals by citizenship.

    The UN has guidelines on determining someone’s Nationality, and in a Constitutional Referendum on sovereign Independence, Scotland could rightfully, and should rightfully, adhere to those guidelines. Because don’t forget, if Scotland adopts a domestic voting franchise, the UK Government will dictate the terms of the franchise.

    Set aside the fact it’s Scotland we’re talking about, and imagine circumstances where a Nation has been colonised, and the people wish to extricate their nation from colonisation. Why would the colonisers have a say in any national referendum, even if they had been resident for several years in the colonised nation? It isn’t their nation. You have rights as a national citizen which are different from people who are there by occupancy, choice or consequence of colonisation.

    A domestic franchise is very different from a Constitutional franchise, because the result will not have international consequences and the impact of the result will be contained inside your own border. Your Nation’s integrity is safe inside its own skin, and free to be as inclusive and welcoming to a wider voting franchise as it likes. That’s the nation’s prerogative, and it doesn’t require international recognition, indeed, it actually precludes international interference.

  463. Republicofscotland says:

    Hatuey @10.44am.

    Officers from the Financial Crimes Unit are said to be probing the allegations. Those officers answer to their superiors, and in turn they answer to the COPFS and ultimately the Lord Advocate, who sits in on Sturgeon’s government meetings.

    We’ve been here before with the previous Lord Advocate, and we know how that turned out.

  464. Hugh Jarse says:

    At 38,924 on Amazons ‘best seller’ list, the quote from some wags review today seems apt. I liked D Storeys “Is it redacted ” too.

    And look, the publisher liked the book so much, he wrote it!

    Taxpayer funded Binfire of the Vanities.

  465. Republicofscotland says:

    The Queen of Scheme, Nicola Sturgeon, and the Tory branch manager in Scotland Douglas Ross, who recently said he’d have no problems bypassing our Holyrood parliament, are to visit a rundown area in Glasgow, to have what will most likely be a phot-op shoot at at drugs rehab centre.

    1,339 Scottish lives were lost to drugs last years, and a similar figure in 2019, and we’re well on the way to a similar figure this year. Yet Sturgeon would never contemplate breaking a reserved matter to save the lives of thousands of Scots by opening drug consumption rooms like they have done in Europe for the last twenty to thirty years.

    Meanwhile Johnson tramples all over devolved matters, whilst she and her lieutenant at Westminster Ian Blackford, seem content to finger point, but do very little else.

    If Sturgeon is too cowardly to even open drug consumption rooms to help save the lives of Scots dying in their thousands, what chance is there that this woman will have the courage to lead us to independence, none I say.

  466. Hugh Jarse says:

    When She/her becomes a liability to the Charlotte St. crew.

  467. Hugh Jarse says:

    Here’s who approved the largesse for She/hers flattering author/publisher.

    Any bells ringing?

  468. Republicofscotland says:

    Hugh Jarse @1.17pm.

    Here is a the Personal Register of Interest for the HIE board, some are quite interesting.

  469. Robert Hughes says:

    Hugh J

    ” Taxpayer funded Binfire of the Vanities. ”

    Lol . * From the same author * ….

    The Eclectic Kool-Aid PCR Test

    The Wrong Stuff

    The Trans/Man In Fully Intact Genitalia

  470. John Main says:

    @Alec Lomax – 7 November, 2021 at 10:45 am

    “John Main – back to the kailyard.”

    I wonder if you even understand what the term means.

    But I guess you are all in favour of the new (perhaps not so new these days) progressive orthodoxy. Nothing wrong with that, although only you will know if your enthusiasm springs from your heart-felt principles or if it is just a bandwagon you have clambered onto because you don’t like thinking for yourself.

    When I look back at my formative years, around 4 decades ago, I just don’t remember anybody I knew arguing that what Scotland needed, more than anything, was a major infusion of new people. But at some point in those past 4 decades, not only did this idea gain traction, it came to be the new orthodoxy so that anybody who as much as says “hang on a minute” is setting themselves up for pelters.

    And yet, I still don’t find anybody I meet arguing that what Scotland needs now, more than anything, is a major infusion of new people. Those in business who have properties to let, or tat to flog are in favour, but their reasons are transparently obvious.

    My conclusion is that the entire concept has been forced on us from above. But if anybody wants to post about how they actually thought of the idea first, and about how they are convinced that the Scots Indy cause is thus advanced, I an genuinely interested in hearing their reasoning.

  471. Hatuey says:

    RoS: “We’ve been here before with the previous Lord Advocate, and we know how that turned out.”

    For sure. There’s got to be a tipping point though — even in Ceau?escu’s Romania there was a tipping point.

    In all Scottish history, I’ve never seen so many investigations and questions marks over a regime.

    The resilience of this shower is simply down to the role of BBC Scotland and if they did real journalism and reporting for one day the whole game would be up. That day will come.

  472. Robert Hughes says:

    John Main

    ” ah but Scotland’s declining population…..? ”

    How about taking serious measures to halt the decline ?

    Mia – late of this parish – posted a brilliant analysis of this situation on Iain Lawson’s blog recently , inc the ratio of native Scottish births/deaths relative to the increase in non-native Scottish residents , and the inescapable conclusion derived from her analysis.

    In brief …..the one is eclipsing the other .

    And , yes , I see it here in the community I live in : the people supportive of increasing influxes of non-native ” Scots ” are – coincidentally – the ones with – mostly – small businesses or services hoping to profit from more customers .

    Nothing inherently wrong with wanting your business to thrive , the question is at what cost does * your * increased profit come ?

    I should point out many of those pro-expansion and indifferent to the implications are themselves native Scots .

    Profits B 4 Prophets ( of Gloom )

  473. Hugh Jarse says:

    Ta RoS, I’ll have a deek after ‘work’.

    Other’s you may be interested in.

    ménage à trois

    Beardless in Bute


  474. Republicofscotland says:

    “In all Scottish history, I’ve never seen so many investigations and questions marks over a regime.”

    Hatuey @2.03pm.

    That’s because we are better informed now than we’ve ever been, there have been scandals under the McConnells, Dewars, McLeish’s and Wallace’s as FM’s of Scotland, but at the time we didn’t have such an aware social media as we do now, and the unionist media often as they still do, protected some parties involved in the sleaze and scandals of the day.

    As for a tipping point, I get the feeling that Scheming Sturgeon will through everyone else under the bus first before her time comes to stand down as FM. She’ll leave Bute House kicking and screaming such is her feelings of entitlement combined with her huge fragile ego.

  475. Hatuey says:

    “the people supportive of increasing influxes of non-native ” Scots ” are – coincidentally – the ones with – mostly – small businesses or services hoping to profit from more customers…”

    Lol. What a bizarre analysis.

  476. Tannadice Boy says:

    Interesting development re the misappropriation of taxpayers money ie bookgate. I always thought a miscalculation would be the undoing of our FM. Will this be the one? She has survived a lot worse. Reading some of the articles in the Sunday Times today I think I am living in a different country. Praise for the FM from unlikely sources. The only article that cheered me up was the interview with Brian Cox. He is holding out for Independence. Coincidently Cox on Marr as well. Grovelling from Sir Kier to get Cox back into the Labour fold. Succession is a brilliant series. If you haven’t watched it get yourself a box set for Christmas. Cox is superb in the lead role.

  477. Robert Hughes says:

    ” Nothing inherently wrong with wanting your business to thrive , the question is at what cost does * your * increased profit come ? ”

    ” bizarre ” ? How so Hatz ?

  478. Republicofscotland says:

    A Scottish government body getting dragged over the coals in court for killing over two-hundred beavers without good cause.

    Mind you this Scottish government has been playing fast and loose with Scotland’s flora and fauna for years now, allowing the culling of beavers, mountain hares and ravens, not to mention allowing grousing estates to kill hundreds of thousands of animals every year including our precious raptors, so that chinless wonders can blast a small semi-flightless bird out of the air to get their jollies.

    “One of our concerns was that NatureScot was issuing beaver-killing licences with about as much due diligence as the UK government followed when it issued contracts for PPE in response to the pandemic.”

    “The court’s ruling is an important victory for transparency and accountability. NatureScot must now fully and transparently record its reasons for issuing each and every beaver-killing licence – opening the agency up to scrutiny and potentially further legal challenges in the future.”

  479. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Main 10.31 am

    You may think being a progressive – or that the label progressive – is wrong John, but I for one am not ready to give up on it, or to stop both identifying as being a progressive and fighting for progressive values rather than the regressive values which are the logical concomitant.

    Nobody is denying any evidence John. When I was growing up in the 60’s and 70’s Scotland was hardly ethnically diverse: there were very few non-white families where I lived and few ethnic minorities in my bog standard comprehensive. So what? Times change. 83.3% of the Scottish population was born here. Of the remainder doubtless quite a few of the 16.7% consider themselves Scottish and would support independence. Doubtless most of their children and grandchildren will identify as Scots. Conversely, a large proportion of the 83% don’t believe Scotland should EVER be an independent nation under ANY circumstances. We might not like that, or understand their mindset, but there it is: they consider themselves British first and Scottish second.

    Most of our European neighbours have seen significant immigration and demographic change over the past 4 or 5 decades, often from different areas due to their different colonial history or policy choices: the UK, France and the Netherlands saw large influxes from former colonies, Germany naturalised lots of former gastarbeiter from Italy, Greece and Turkey and later accepted large numbers of refugees from the Balkans and Middle East. The reasons for doing so are many and various, but presumably few but extremists and regressive ethno-nationalists would really be arguing that we should repatriate such people.

    As to pulling up the drawbridge now and halting any or most “new ” immigration, I doubt that’d fly with the majority of the population although it has obvious appeal to the baser instincts of many “little Englanders” and doubtless “little Scotlanders”. I wouldn’t want to be identified with either group: the right wing undercurrent of trying to keep Scotland Scottish is the antithesis of civic nationalism, and won’t in my view lead to independence. Indeed it will ensure independence never happens because it will alienate a significant proportion of the current movement.

    The idea that 16.7% of the population will be in the position of wagging the 83.3% dog seems fanciful to me. The Russian for progressive is: ?????????????
    phonetically in English: progressivny). I’ve often wondered how long it would take the nativists or their fellow travellers in here to conjure the ghost of Stalin’s mass deportations and ethnic cleansing: indeed I’m surprised none of them has tried the argument before. Perhaps it’s because it’d be a deeply insulting mis-characterisation of the two situations, in a similar vein to the “Scotland as colony” line?

    I find it particularly telling you or anyone else who really believes in democracy would be defending the Hungarian or Polish populist governments. The Hungarians have never been particularly averse to imposing their culture on other ethnic groups historically: ask the Slovaks, Rumanians and others who used to be part of the lands of St Stephen.

    Thankfully I’m pretty sure I am in the majority. I don’t pretend that progressive politics is a position compatible with Scottish independence, I’m stating quite openly that it is the ONLY route to it. Nativist ethno nationalism will kill independence stone dead, because it will alienate both a significant section of the current Yes movement, and it will never appeal to non native Scots, who we should be trying to win over in greater numbers.

    The idea that we can’t win independence because we’re overrun by non Scots born immigrants when 83.3% of the population were born in Scotland is puerile. If we honestly can’t make that case, we don’t deserve to be independent.

  480. Andy Ellis says:

    @ Brian 11.12 pm

    Guilty as charged. In my defence, he had it coming given his constant tirades against me in here which do nothing but bang on about why I’m a unionist stooge and not a “real” independence supporter.

    Are you really trying to tell me that a normal, balanced person responds at 3.29 am, or is so singularly unable to engage in any actual dialogue as he/she/it has consistently shown himself to be?

    In general I try to ignore the worst of the moon howlers and have recently simply refused to engage with many of them. Sometimes it’s hard not to bite back against particularly egregious examples of fuckwittery like twathaters tho’.

  481. sarah says:

    @ BDTT re crichd: many thanks. At the moment crichd is working on Chrome. That tip on clicking unmute multiple times is handy for next time!

  482. Andy Ellis says:

    @John Main 1.52 pm

    Alex Lomax is right though: what many of the nativists are espousing is the “back to the kailyard” de nos jours. What became known as the kailyard movement was often criticised – even at the time it was in vogue – for presenting an overly sentimental view of rural life in Scotland, cleansed of real problems and issues that affected ordinary folk. In that sense it was just a less overtly nationalistic version of German “blut und boden” philosophy.

    If you’re so convinced that the current policy direction is wrong, isn’t it incumbent on you and those who agree with your regressive nativism to explain how we will cope with a shrinking and ageing population? Who is going to care for current generations when they get old if our population is falling, and we don’t have enough people contributing taxes to pay for their care?

    I mean, it’s fair enough if you think we should just advocate for lowering the population, and only letting outsiders in as gastarbeiters with no right to citizenship, or right to vote or claim any benefit. Perhaps that really is the kind of better nation you want, but I’m not sure how many takers you will get. If you’re not happy with the current level of non-native Scots, is there some acceptable % you have in mind that doesn’t represent a threat to Scottishness in your view? 10%? 5%? 1%?

    Perhaps you’re talking to the wrong sort of people John? I’ve never heard anyone advocate for totally open borders, because that’d be patently absurd, but I’ve also never personally come across anyone who advocated turning people away, or making it significantly harder than it is already.

    The UK already has a pretty poor record in relation to places like Germany and Scandinavia for accepting refugees (often from parts of the world we were instrumental in destabilising to the extent that millions of the inhabitants were willing to risk everything to leave). Since the evidence also seems to show that immigration is actually a net gain to the economy financially, how are you proposing that we offset the losses incurred if we make immigration significantly harder and reduce the numbers allowed. I’m honestly all ears.

  483. Tannadice Boy says:

    @Andy Ellis 4:11pm

    Not only can we win Independence but we should have won the first time. That said what assessment has been done to look at the reason why we lost in 2014. Diddly Squat. The questions I got on the street remain unanswered to this day. I don’t know what progressive means. Will it be to the betterment of the Scottish people?. Because that is my benchmark. If you have aspirations to becoming a public servant as in MSP for Alba please tone down the moon howler stuff. Second time I have given you that advice. And I mean that in a helpful way. I can’t be a public servant my wife tells me I am too honest. But perhaps you could be. A shape shifter for the dirty world of politics. I didn’t join Alba in the end. Preferring to be a street operator but don’t expect me to punt the progressive line. Sounds SNPish to me.

  484. Andy Ellis says:

    @Tannadice Boy 4.38 pm

    I’ll give your advice about who I’m allowed to call a moon howler all the consideration it deserves thanks you tone policing freak. I’ve no aspiration to hold any office, but I hardly think calling out regressive nativists for being moon howlers would be a bar even if I was so minded. Part of the reason we are where we are with the twitler Youth in the SNP and the nutter collective soiling ther BTL comments here is that too few folk have fingered the proponents of such fuckwittery for the zoomers they really are. I’m not asking for your permission or acceptance.

    If you’re not a progressive, or don’t understand the difference between what progressive policies would look like in the pursuit of a “better nation”, and what regressive policies would look like, we’re probably not on the same side. I’m beyond tired of people telling us to pull our punches and not frighten the horses by telling it like it is.

    If folk don’t like being called moon howlers, they should stop being moon howlers. More particularly they should stop soiling this site (of all sites!) given its history and the fact the guy who runs it is on record as rubbishing the nativist prospectus and saying he wants no part of it. They then witter on ad nauseam about being criticised for it by the few adults left in the room, as though THEY weren’t the weird ones hijacking a site like this then having the audacity to have a go at folk like me for answering them and pointing and laughing at their regressive, little Scotlander kailyard “know nothing-ism”.

    That kind of “lets have a group hug, eyes on the prize, we all want the same thing” snake oil is a huge part of why we lost in 2014: we never really laid a glove on Project Fear, concentrated on a relentlessly positive, happy-clappy kumbaya pseudo devolutionist prospectus, and failed to have adequate answers for the “big issues” like currency, EU membership, whether there was really a fiscal black hole etc.

    If you don’t like it: tough.

  485. Dan says:

    Bring back the Kailyard movement! Greta and COP26 should be all over this.
    Local veg reared by oor ain blood on oor ain soil. No more of those progressive high carbon footprint exotic imports.
    After all if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate.

  486. Tannadice Boy says:

    @Andy Ellis 5:04pm
    OK we are not on the same side. You can’t explain what progressive means. Ditto thousands of people before you. Especially in the SNP. This is a blog for Independence supporters and they come in all shapes and sizes. Tolerance of others is all I was asking. You dont need my permission for anything. Say want you want. This site is the last bastion of free speech and we have the most tolerant of hosts. I am glad you are have decided not to stand perhaps I should. I can’t do any worse than the current incumbents.

  487. twathater says:

    @ Fionan 9.48am I apologise for responding to ####, you are correct it only demeans the site and the comments btl ,I have castigated myself in the past for doing so but we are all allowed the ocassional mistake

    If you haven’t already I would recommend viewing the Prism on barrheadboy’s site or Iain Lawson’s Yours FOR Scotland site it is entertaining and educational

  488. Derek says:

    Dan says:
    7 November, 2021 at 5:08 pm

    After all if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate.

    Ooh, we could fall out over this…

  489. Andy Ellis says:

    @Tannadice Boy 5.20 pm

    Anyone can explain what they consider progressive and what they consider regressive: it shouldn’t really be that difficult. The answers you get might vary of course and will depend on the person, the issue and possibly the timing, but are you really saying you’re unable to tell the difference between “progressive” social democratic broadly left of centre policies, and regressive conservative right of centre polices?

    You may disagree with some progressive policies and agree with others, indeed it’s likely you’ll disagree with the very definition on some matters. In the case of recent discussions here for example, it can’t have escaped your notice that some people think restricting the franchise for an independence referendum is regressive. For all its many undoubted faults I think most Scots, and most in the broader movement, would still describe the SNP government as more progressive on many issues than say the Conservatives. That doesn’t mean we can’t castigate for their manifest failures in other areas. That’s what politics is all about.

    Good luck to you if you do stand. I hope by the time you do you’ve figured out what progressive polices are and what regressive policies are: it’ll be kinda important persuading folk to vote for you.

  490. Andy Ellis says:

    @Derek 6.05 pm

    In our kailyard paradise are we obliged to forego foreign beverages too? We picked sloe berries today to make sloe gin, but I’m worried by the time it matures the nativists will have declared such concoctions tabu.

    I’d hate to precipitate a witch hunt to find our stashes of forbidden non native spirits.

  491. Tannadice Boy says:

    @Andy Ellis 6:10pm
    You missed my point about Independence supporters being of all colours and political persuasion. I think I am in the centre, of course you might think I am right wing regressive Tory.. blah blah. Today I was invigorated by Brian Cox. A fellow Fintry Independence supporter. If you grew up in Fintry, Dundee and had the luxury of dodging the Shams like we did etc. Cox gets that so do I. He thinks he had a hard start. Erm.. Progressive means you get the bairns to achieve to their potential. It’s not an ideological situation. He made his fame through acting. I did it through education. Others did it through sport. I could go on with real names. That’s what progressive means.

  492. robbo says:

    Ellis is progressively getting on my tits! That’s what progressive is.


  493. Andy Ellis says:

    @Tannadice Boy 6.29 pm

    I’m not denying there are supporters of indy across the political spectrum: I recall a guy during indyref1 on twitter who was an orangeman, but insisted he supported indy. I thought he was a piss take at first, but he insisted he was genuine. Perhaps he was. Doubtless after indy Scotland will from a party political perspective be little different to other countries: there will be right of centre parties, centre parties, left of centre parties, a green party and perhaps others.

    Helping your bairns achieve their potential could be one definition or aspect of being progressive, but I’m not sure I’d agree the term can be altogether divorced from ideology. I think I have a fairly good handle on what is and isn’t progressive, but there again up until a few months ago it would never have occurred to me for example that a section of the folk in here would be clamouring to change the 2014 franchise, cheering on the “Scotland as colony” narrative, bigging up vaccine denial and claiming it was all a Bill Gates inspired plot. I mean, there’s always been
    a leavening of roasters in here, but now it’s more a case of the lunatics having taken over the asylum.

    Perhaps it’s unrealistic to expect an independent Scotland to be the “better nation” conjured by what it seemed most of the movement wanted between 2012-14. Civic, progressive nationalism seemed relatively unproblematic then. After the last seven years I’m not so sure now. The movement seems fractured, which may delay reaching the goal, or may just mean that when it happens the post independence environment won’t be what many of us previously expected.

    Who knows, perhaps that’s no bad thing. Like others including Stu I have little appetite for the Scotland the current SNP is selling, or for the one the nativist claque in here wants. Apparently that makes me a the wrong kind of nationalist according to some in here. As a wise man once said: bollocks to that!

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