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Wings Over Scotland

Through the fog of war

Posted on March 29, 2014 by

Some readers didn’t fully grasp the meaning of our post yesterday evening which shed light on the full tangled horror of Scottish Labour’s proposals for “extended” devolution if Scotland votes No this September. We don’t entirely blame them, because trying to make sense of both the proposals and the godawful leaden writing in which the party’s document explained them is no easy task.


So we’re going to see if we can simplify it all a bit.



Johann Lamont insisted that above all, any changes to the devolution settlement must not enable there to be tax competition between Scotland and other parts of the UK, for the twin reasons that it would cause a “race to the bottom” which would damage both economies, and that it would damage the Union, amounting to “independence by the back door”.

However, the arrangement proposed by Labour actually does nothing whatsoever to prevent competition. In theory it greatly INCREASES the possibilities for competition, because it allows Scottish income tax to be reduced across the board by 15p in the pound, or increased without limit.

Labour want to hide this fact. When we studied the letter sent out by Richard Baker, Siobhan McMahon and Iain Gray, we noticed something interesting: the main part of it was in fact more or less cut-and-pasted directly from the “Devo Nano” document, but with the addition of a couple of revealing lines.

Here’s paragraph 15 of the full report:

“- Labour will give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act, so that it raises about 40 per cent of its budget from its own resources.

– We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p to 15p.

– This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament. “

And here’s an extract from the letter to constituents:

“- Labour would therefore give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act.

– We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p up to 15p.

– This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament.

– The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK levelacross all income tax bands

– Equally, it would be possible to use the same power to increase tax, above the UK level, across all bands.”

Those first three clauses appear four times in the “Devo Nano” report, but the last two aren’t found anywhere, because they reveal that the document’s constant talk of avoiding tax competition on grand moral grounds, which Johann Lamont emphasised at great length on various TV shows last week, is a complete sham.


But the power to vary Scottish income tax has existed since 1999 without ever being used. Why has it never been used? Partly because it would be politically suicidal – nobody votes for parties who say they’re going to increase their taxes – and partly precisely because it would cause tax competition.

If the basic rate in Scotland was 5p higher than England’s, people would flock across the border in search of work, because 5% is currently the equivalent of getting about five years’ worth of pay rises all at once. It’d be a disaster for Scotland (because we’d lose lots of tax revenue), but also terrible for the north of England, which would face an influx of labour into an already strained economy.

Unemployment would soar, the benefits bill would soar (even working people often need tax credits and housing benefit nowadays), there’d be social tension as people resented the flood of economic migrants, and general unpleasantness all round.

That’s why the 3p power was never used, and why exactly the same – only more so – would apply at 15p. Labour is in public railing against tax competition, while at the same time providing the very mechanism by which it could be ramped up to absolutely catastrophic levels.

It hopes to get away with this on the grounds that increasing the Scottish Variable Rate from 3p to 15p is a bit like your local Kwik Fit having a “buy one get five free” deal on aeroplane tyres – it sounds good but ultimately it means nothing, because you can’t use aeroplane tyres on your Honda Civic, and ultimately you’ll just have wasted your money for no purpose.

The “Devo Nano” paper promises “flexibility” over taxation – the words “flexibility” or “flexible” appear 32 times – but it’s the flexibility of being able to wander freely around your padded cell while your arms are strapped up in a straitjacket. You do technically have some, but it’s the kind that’s no use to you whatsoever.


Why it’s Kindly Old Professor Barnett, the man we least suspected!

If changing the SVR is so pointless, why bother doing it? Well, firstly because it sounds like an increase of powers, even though it really isn’t. But secondly, because it gets Labour out of a tricky pickle.

Pretty much everyone in England (and indeed Wales) hates the Barnett Formula. They feel like they’re getting a raw deal because Scotland gets higher public spending per head than most of the rest of the UK, and they think that’s what pays for free university tuition, prescriptions, personal care for the elderly and so on.

Now, WE know that’s rubbish, and that Scotland’s higher Barnett spending doesn’t even compensate for the huge amounts of oil revenue we send south every year, let alone mean we’re getting extra money. But the facts don’t matter – English people FEEL like they’re getting ripped off by Barnett, so they want rid of it.

That suits Labour fine, because they take Scottish votes in general elections for granted, which means there’s no point spending money in Scotland to win them. If they could divert that money to England to help capture the handful of marginal swing seats that decide UK governments, they’d be thrilled.

The Devo Nano document pledges to keep Barnett, but only in a drastically reduced form. Shifting responsibility for three-quarters of Scottish income tax collection to Holyrood means that Barnett can be slashed, while still ensuring 100% of Scottish oil money (and the future bounty of renewables) goes to the Treasury.

“The block grant from the UK Government to Scotland will then be reduced to reflect the fiscal impact of the devolution of these tax-raising powers.” (paragraph 340)

As we’ve been saying for months, the No parties’ devolution plans are about more responsibilities, not more powers. Scotland would be left worse off, because the new Scottish HMRC couldn’t raise any more money but would have significant extra costs, causing a net shortfall.

And of course, Labour tell us endlessly what their overarching goal is – to “pool and share resources” so that they can be redistributed away from richer areas of the UK (like Scotland) and into poorer ones (ie England outside the South East). So it’d be a foolish person who put their faith in either Labour or the Tories not to take advantage of the recalculation of the Barnett Formula to bring about that end.


The one area where the Devo Nano proposals are startlingly, almost brutally clear and open is in admitting that their purpose is to subvert the Scottish democratic process, by ensuring that no matter who’s in power, they’ll only be able to enact Labour policy.

“We have however no wish to see Scotland become a tax haven and so have serious reservations about a devolved tax power which would enable an administration like the present SNP Government to indulge in destructive tax competition with the rest of the UK by cutting only the higher rates of tax and hoping to attract rich people to claim Scottish residence.

While this might conceivably increase Scottish tax income, it would be at the expense of public services in the rest of the UK. That is inconsistent with the sharing union to which we want Scotland to continue to belong. Scotland should not try to become another Monaco, attracting tax exiles and living off the backs of poorer people elsewhere in the UK.” (paragraph 358)

And again:

“Under our proposals, the Scottish Parliament would have the power to adjust the progressivity of the tax system, in circumstances such as those which have happened recently under a Conservative Chancellor, where the top tax rate has been reduced from 50p to 45p.

Ed Balls has announced that a Labour Government will restore the top tax rate to 50p. The Scottish Parliament, under our proposals, would have the power to achieve the same aims if a UK Government like the present one failed to do so.

This would mean a power to set the new Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax applying in the higher bands only, which would be able to secure 40p and 50p rates in the event that the United Kingdom Government proceeded unfairly to reduce them.

This system will ensure also that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to create damaging tax competition within the United Kingdom by arbitrarily reducing the higher tax rates in the hope of attracting well-off taxpayers from England.” (paragraph 362)

It’s not even subtle. Scotland will not be able to compete advantageously with England, but England will be able to compete advantageously with Scotland, because the rest of the UK will be able to undercut the Scottish top rate but not vice versa, because that’s not Labour policy.

“The Scottish Parliament will be able to alter both the level of tax and the progressivity of the tax system, but without the risk that a Scottish Government could force tax competition within the UK by cutting only the top rates, to the detriment of public services. Labour in the Scottish Parliament would be able to use these powers if a UK Government did not set fair taxes at these levels.” (paragraph 151, our emphasis)

As plain as day – these powers aren’t for the Scottish Parliament, they’re meant specifically for Labour, which gets to be the sole and eternal arbiter of “fairness”. If Labour aren’t in government, the proposals make sure their policies always are.



Hmm. We’re not sure that’s much simpler. But then that was probably Labour’s plan all along. In forcing them to clarify the proposals, we haven’t so much uncovered any new information as blown away the concealing the vast layers of impenetrable wonkspeak waffle the party was trying to hide the gaping holes in the plan with.

The 300-page document can be summarised accurately in just a few lines:

– a huge, five-fold increase in the potential for the UK to be subject to catastrophic tax competition, insured against only by the fact that the policy would be so insane and destructive nobody would ever use it, rendering it in practice completely meaningless and pointless. Net effect: no change.

– a vague, incoherent, fundamentally impossible plan to extricate Housing Benefit from Universal Credit. Net effect: no change.

– to write Labour policy irreversibly into the constitution, forcing Labour ideology on the Scottish Government no matter which party won Scottish elections. (Irreversible because only Westminster can change the terms of devolution, and neither a Labour nor a Conservative government would have any conceivable reason to.) Net effect: no change, forever.

The “purpose” referred to in the paper’s title couldn’t be clearer: to create electoral advantage for Labour in England and Wales by defusing the Barnett problem and diverting money out of Scotland to bribe UK voters with, and to hamper the Scottish Parliament by loading it with pointless bureaucracy, responsibilities and costs disguised as “powers” – while taking many of its ACTUAL powers away and giving them to (it hopes) Labour councils, thereby ensuring that an SNP-controlled Holyrood can never again be a thorn in the side of a Labour government in Westminster.

In practice, then, Devo Nano represents a great rolling back of devolution, in the service of creating “One Nation”. It openly and intentionally undermines Scottish democracy rather than strengthening it. It promises great change, while deliberately devising a situation in which change is impossible.

The party tried to hide the contradictions behind clunky jargon and a leader so inept that people would assume she was just incapable of explaining them, but yesterday’s letters brought them starkly out into the daylight. We can do no more than that.

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    194 to “Through the fog of war”

    1. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Was point 3 not the message from Gordon Brown?

      All the oil monies will go, in perpetuity to London, to be ostensibly redistributed to the poorer regions of the UK.

      London however, has no such contract to redistribute anywhere.

    2. Jimbo says:

      Westminster politicians constantly tell us that no government while in power can tie the hands of any future government – But, should they be elected, that is clearly what Labour plans for future Scottish governments.

    3. Bugger (the Panda) says:


      I meant that monies raised in London, or from the SE of England not monies sent to London.

      We are the donkey to shackled to the water wheel until we drop dead.

    4. Thepnr says:

      Rev I have been patiently awaiting this post. It states the blooming obvious.

      Partial “powers” are not powers at all, 3p, 10p or 15p? What does that mean? Bugger all is what it means. You cannot run a country properly without FULL powers. Yes, everything. That is the only way that makes sense.

      How big a slice of the pie is total government revenue from income tax anyway? I’ll tell you what the UK’s is as it is in their budget report, 26% of total revenue comes from income tax.

      National Insurance plus VAT is 1.5 times as large. Devo Min is bullshit and I hope most people will recognise that. I’m so pleased that you are explaining to your average Joe that any DEVO proposals result in a big fat zero increase in “powers”.

    5. Murray McCallum says:

      Excellent article Rev Stu and thanks for explaining the detail behind this “devo” proposal.

      It’s almost as if Gordon Brown has been involved in drafting some of these proposals – deviousness hidden by unnecessary layers of complexity.

    6. Tattie-bogle says:

      Glutton for punishment just read BBC comments on currency phew how ill informed are some folk

    7. Muscleguy says:

      I wonder if the shire marginals that decide Westminster governments would be as understanding as Scotland is supposed to be about the ‘pooling and sharing’ argument. No more transport spending in London while for eg the £5 per head in the NE is brought up to a reasonably level? That sort of thing.

      Is Milliband going to be ‘bold’ and put it to them in the manifesto as it has been put to us in the Devo-Nano proposals?

      Oh look, a flying pig-squirrel.

    8. ronnie anderson says:

      Chimp Chimi_ninny Chim Chim Cheroo

      Voteing Scottish labour,s

      No good for YOU.

      Well they do say put a Monkey

      up for Election in a safe Labour

      seat it well get Elected.

      JolO are you oot there.

    9. Proud Cybernat says:

      except this “pooling of resources” and redistributing from wealthier parts of the UK to poorer parts is a total sham. The wealth is being drained from Scotland (and all other parts of the UK) to disappear into the dark star of London, into the back pockets of big business and bankers. If this money truly was going from wealthier to poorer parts then Britain would not be the third most unequal society in the developed world. More Labour lies.

    10. handclapping says:

      The fog of war is very apt. It was produced by the oldfashioned powders used in the guns and volleys of long ago. Now we have propellants that are smokeless and laser guided sights, just as the Rev punctures the blunderbuss verbiage of Labour proposals with forensic analysis.

      If Scottish Labour voting drops to 28% they could be left with Gordon Brown, Willie Bain and Frank Roy representing them at Westminster after a No vote and what chance of Devo Nano then, Now there’s an interesting foresight of what a No vote might mean!

    11. schrodingers cat says:

      So Scotland can raise taxes but not collect them

      westminster can vary tax to the disadvantage of scotland byt holyrood is powerless to do anything about this

      ps, donation given, although when i point at the donation link i see 107k raised but when i actually go to the page it says only 89k raised?

    12. heedtracker says:

      So it’s all about the power and glory of Labour in Westminster forever and ever. With the BBC in Scotland mercilessly attacking Holyrood from Pacific Quay, they probably think they can pull of this shyste among others. It also explains the gibberish Lamont comes out with. Still nothing back from Willie Young here in Salitreless Aberdeen and why would he bother anyway. I’ll try one more time though.

    13. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      This Devo Nano analysis dovetails nicely with what Alan Bissett said:

      “Vote No and Labour will set Scotland up to fail, then occupy the ruins.”

      The current crop of Councils saying they will leave COSLA is part of the same not-so-cunning SLAB plan.

      The Scottish Parliament is forever lost and toxic to the remnants of SLAB.

      So their intention is to have the post-NO revised Barnett formula send money directly to their dwindling numbers of representatives occupying the ruins of West Dunbartonshire, Inverclyde, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire etc.

      Good luck with that plan.

    14. Morag says:

      Schrodinger’s Cat, the total on the mouseover is the total including some donations sent directly without going through Indiegogo. Some anonymous benefactor apparently sent a single donation of £10,000 that way, and there have been others.

      So well done Wings, double the original target raised!

    15. Aidan says:

      An admirably clear article. The essence of truth distilled from a large body of nonsense.

      The fog in this war is being strategically deployed as part of the conflict rather than incidental to it. It is intended to prevent or at least hamper those “mature debates” and “conversations with the Scottish people” that Ms Lamont calls for whenever she doesn’t know what else to say.

      Laid bare as they are above, their proposals demonstrate their priorities. As far as I can see, they put Labour’s future electoral advantage first; UK/ Westminster status quo second; “the remarkable international city-state of London” third. Concern for the political, economic and social needs and realities of 21st Century Scotland must be further down the list, well after the shopping and the laundry.

      The question is: can Labour MSPs see through their own synthetic fog or are they entirely lost in it?

    16. galamcennalath says:

      Absolutely spot-on summary of just how Labour would treat Scotland, if we let them away with it!

    17. schrodingers cat says:

      thanks morag

      but wow, thats over double that was asked for???

    18. CameronB says:

      Now, WE know that’s rubbish, and that Scotland’s higher Barnett spending doesn’t even compensate for the huge amounts of oil revenue we send south every year, let alone mean we’re getting extra money. But the facts don’t matter – English people FEEL like they’re getting ripped off by Barnett, so they want rid of it.

      After working on a project within the Scottish Office’s Central Reasearch Unit to determine the cost-effectiveness of local government expenditure, IMO the main reason for the higher public spend per person in Scotland, is because we have a more dispersed, rural population. Kind of factors of scale in reverse.

      And of course, Labour tell us endlessly what their overarching goal is – to “pool and share resources” so that they can be redistributed away from richer areas of the UK (like Scotland) and into poorer ones (ie England outside the South East).

      Careful there, the south-east contains some of the deepest deprivation in Britain. London is also struggling to build transport infrastructure, mainly, in order to accommodate the expected addition 1,0000,000 Londoners over the next few years. This will include a lot of poor people and NEED, whether comparative or actual.

      The “purpose” referred to in the paper’s title couldn’t be clearer: to create electoral advantage for Labour in England and Wales by defusing the Barnett problem and diverting money out of Scotland to bribe UK voters with, and to hamper the Scottish Parliament by loading it with pointless bureaucracy, responsibilities and costs disguised as “powers” – while taking many of its ACTUAL powers away and giving them to (it hopes) Labour councils, thereby ensuring that an SNP-controlled Holyrood can never again be a thorn in the side of a Labour government in Westminster.

      English Socialism (IngSoc) = Oligarchical Collectivism

      Bob Marley and The Wailers – Pound Get A Blow (Freedom Time).

    19. hetty says:

      This certainly explains a lot more in layman’s/woman’s terms. I think they, New Labour have made it so messy so as to confuse people and so they become fed up and disengage from the whole referendum thing in fact. I have heard people basically say we just have to ‘sit on our hands and view from afar’, and others say they are a bit ‘bored’ by it all.

      One thing to get across to the ordinary and even less ordinary woman/man in the street, is just what it will mean when the Barnett formula goes, which it will if it’s a no vote. The consequences are massive, but some folk do not even know what the Barnett formula is. We are getting there, but still work to do, we need to keep up the positive but also up the message about what a no vote will actually mean in terms of jobs, services, infrastructure, being used as a huge nuclear dump etc. The likelihood being a total destruction of any notion of an equal society, which is essential to a forward looking and civilised country being able to trade and function in the 21st century.
      Scotland will not survive a no vote, and neither will the uk.

    20. CameronB says:

      schrodingers cat
      I think that includes funds from other sources.

      Liked your fat 2s. 🙂

    21. hetty says:

      Oh and of course with a YES we won’t have need for Barnett, something some folk find confusing?

    22. Albamac says:

      Sorry for the interruption but this has angered me a bit and I can’t find a more suitable place for it.

      Nick Clegg and Willie Rennie visited Banbury Cross Nursery, in Aberdeen, yesterday. I’m wondering who authorised the visit and whether parents agreed to it.

      Surely Clegg’s determination to protect the reputation of a serial child abuser and his alleged part in yet another cover-up would have given parents some cause for alarm and should, at least, have put staff on their guard.

      How MP Cyril Smith got away with child abuse

      Following Smith’s death in 2010, Clegg led the sickening tributes.

      He was, he said, “deeply saddened” to hear of the death of Sir Cyril Smith and offered this glowing tribute:

      Cyril Smith was a larger-than-life character and one of the most recognisable and likeable politicians of his day. I am deeply saddened to hear the news of his death today, and offer my sincere condolences to his family and friends.

      Everybody in Rochdale knew him, not only as their MP but also as a friend. He was a true Liberal, dedicated to his constituency, always showing great passion and determination.

      Cyril was a colourful politician who kept the flame of Liberalism alive when the party was much smaller than it is today. Rochdale and Britain have sadly lost one of their great MPs, and I think we can safely say there will never be an MP quite like Cyril Smith again.”

      I’m sure all of us hope that there will never be another MP like the creature that Oliver Kamm described in The Times as “a paedophile sadist who satisfied his urgings by inflicting humiliating punishment on vulnerable boys who were nominally in his care” and “a reactionary bigot whose mind was as small as his girth was huge. Above all, he was a sexual predator and a corrupt, venal liar, and should be remembered that way.”

      Here’s some of what Channel 4 had to say about Clegg’s much-admired, jolly giant:
      How MP Cyril Smith got away with child abuse

      It’s difficult to find a senior LibDem who hasn’t had some involvement in all of this. When the devil drives, they’ll praise the predator to protect the party.

      Alistair Carmichael, as Liberal Democrat chief whip, conducted an internal inquiry into what MPs knew about Smith’s abuse of young boys and concluded that there was no case to answer. Carmichael is now deputy leader of the party and Secretary of State for Scotland.

      Sir David Steel, a former leader of the party, having been aware of allegations against Smith for years, casually dismissed them by saying, “all he seems to have done is spanked a few bare bottoms“. He recommended Smith for a knighthood.

      On 27 February 2013, there’s this in The Guardian:

      Nick Clegg accused of ignoring formal requests for help from alleged sex abuse victims

      I don’t think that any politician should be allowed such freedom of access to a nursery or close contact with the children in its care. I can’t see any legitimate reason for it. Let politicians find their photo-opportunities elsewhere. They have no right to press innocent children into their service. It’s sickening enough when they do it to their own offspring. Allowing them to (ab)use other people’s children in this way is just not on.

      The first duty of Banbury Cross and every other nursery is the care and protection of children. I’m hoping that their failure, in this instance, was a temporary lapse of judgement. If, in the other hand, they allowed it in the hope of generating publicity for their business then they are no better than the politicians who took advantage of it and, in my opinion, they’re in the wrong business.

    23. hetty says:

      Cameron B

      I see what you are saying regards London, but I have heard people saying that poorer people are having to leave London as it is so expensive and places like Brixton are more trendy middle class now, I haven’t been there for some years, and London needs some poor people to do the dirty jobs, but in the main sounds like it is changing? You can buy a flat in parts of Gateshead and outer areas, for next to nothing, the difference is staggering between North and S of England.

    24. Nemo says:

      On the topic of music, while leafleting today we were told by a couple of ladies that local radio stations in Scotland have been written to (they think by OFCOM) with a list of songs that the stations are forbidden to play – such as some Proclamers numbers. The apparent reason given is that these songs support/promote Scottish independence.

      If this is the case, and confirmation is needed, then surely this is blatant censorship and could backfire if we can confirm it and get the word out.

    25. Les Wilson says:

      Simples, do not trust ANY unionist party, they are ALL working against the democratic aspirations of Scotland.
      Go by that and you understand where they are ALL coming from.

      We have one chance, we really must take it, no matter what their diversionary tactics are. Believe nothing they say, ever!

    26. Bugger (the Panda) says:


      Yes but Scotland is rich in some areas but many area are horrendously poor.

      So the wealth Scotland needs to tackle localised poverty is sucked out of Scotland to disappear wherever Westminster decides it needs to buy off and up the red or the blue party’s seat count.

      The other cunning bit, not yet fully public, is that in Scotland’s case, to mimic what will happen throughout England, Wales and N Ireland is that the redistribution will go direct to local authorities (eg GDC) and bypass Holyrood.

      Job done, Holyrood emasculated, Westminster’s centralised control enshrined and the Rotten Boroughs set up to keep their graft and corruption carousel spinning merrily.

      Welcome to the delusion of democracy, called kleptocracy.

      Vote No in September and get the Mother of all corrupt “democracy” until the people rise and pick up pitch forks.

    27. CameronB says:

      You’re talking about the St. Retham effect (Stretham).

      Been going on for years but ghettoisation and social cleansing doesn’t make good TV.

      Something like that. 😉

    28. Onwards says:

      Agreed, The whole ‘pooling and sharing’ of resources doesn’t work for Scotland – because it is determined by population, not land area.

      If we want to build 3 lane motorways between our major cities, then it would cost far more ‘per person’, regardless of how much it is needed.

      We all know in which area the population is growing fastest.

    29. heedtracker says:

      BBC in Scotland doing an incredible job shutting down Vote No Guardian’s sterling share thing last night. You have to hand to the BBC, when it comes to their vote No Scotland propaganda there’s no one to touch them, except BetterTogether Press and Journal of course but it’s certainly really angered Brian Taylor.

    30. CameronB says:

      Bugger (the Panda)
      Who’s side do you think I’m on. 🙂

      I’m just calling it as I see it.

    31. bjsalba says:

      I think sometimes we should highlight other sites. Weegingerdug called the labour offering devodiddlysquat.

      Aye2014 lists what we get from labour (barely one column of diddlysquat) and 2 columns of keepers (the real power stuff) that Westminster holds onto.

      The sign of a powerful leader is when he/she gives credit when it is due to others who come up with something more succint.

      What do you say rev?

    32. Bugger (the Panda) says:



    33. CameronB says:

      Bugger (the Panda)
      Are you calling me a tube? Outside. 🙂

    34. The Man in the Jar says:

      Today I got proof that being in the (I assume) Labour party for a good length of time rots your brain.

      I was out with Yes Uddingston and Bothwell leafleting Uddingston Main St. this lunchtime. Very positive most leaflets were refused on the grounds of “Its alright I`ll be voting Yes!” and the occasional dour “no thanks”

      There was one guy probably in his late sixties I offered him a leaflet and he quite angrily declared “I`m a committed socialist so I`ll be voting No!” I tried to engage with him to point out the error in his statement but he stomped off in the huff.

      The saying “There are none so blind as those that will not see” is so true. I honestly felt quite sorry for the man. Due to years of indoctrination he is determined to vote against his own self interest. Very sad!

    35. Bugger (the Panda) says:


      There is a second panda, for handers.

    36. proudscot says:

      Don’t worry RevStu, according to the speeches at the LibDem Aberdeen conference, from the likes of Ming the Doted and Carmichael the Confused, in their version of LaLa Land all three unionist parties “should” agree to grant lots and lots of (unspecified) more powers to Holyrood. And elephants might fly, not just pigs!

    37. CameronB says:

      As far as ‘races to the bottom’ are concerned, the most obvious is that between New York and London. New York got a head start but London has gritty determination.

      New York was the world’s first neo-liberal city. That is where the shit started, including place-marketing (e.g. fake shop front).

    38. CameronB says:

      All this neo-liberal driven social destruction is what put me off Planning as a profession. I didn’t want to become yet another small cog in an increasing fascist wheel.

    39. heedtracker says:

      Ming the Dotled

    40. Bugger (the Panda) says:



      Actually voting against your own self interest might be a very socialist thing to do, assuming it is for the benefit of others more needy. But to vote against the need of those around you with no guarantee that all the other needy will be helped is stupid.

      Remember, to some the Labour Party is a cult and needs worshiping and unquestioning. We are the heretics

    41. CameronB says:


    42. Albamac says:

      @The Man in the Jar

      I’m regularly leafleted by the LibDems. A few days ago, I happened to be in the hall when the leaflets dropped through the letterbox. I picked them up and opened the door before the guy who dropped them got away. I handed them back to him and asked him, politely, if he’d be kind enough to put them in his own bin.

      He left as quietly as he’d arrived.

    43. Proud Cybernat says:

      So, to summarise–it’s still ‘Devo Nano’.

    44. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      It is Devo Hoodwink.

    45. Andy-B says:

      Thanks Rev very good article, showing that Devo Nano, is not worth the paper its printed on.

      O/T Douglas Alexander in the Daily Record again, it seems the Daily Record is giving him a platform to spew his rubbish on a regular basis. Today’s episode show picture of Labour’s John Smith.

      Alexander then prattles on about the greatness of the union, and Labour and how the wee pesky Nats are trying to break up a very very good thing, in the union, quick pass the sick bucket.

      No link, not in online version.

    46. Albamac says:

      Sorry about duplication of the Channel 4 link in an earlier post. Should have been deleted whilst editing the original.

    47. The Man in the Jar says:

      @Bugger (the Panda) (Hullawyersell)

      I have been expecting someone to hand back a Yes newspaper while I have been out delivering them. But it hasn’t happened yet.

      I have had my retort ready for them though. “Oh thanks very much. We are short of newspapers and everyone of them counts!”

      I must say handing out leaflets is a positive experience so if anyone is thinking about it “Go for it” Join your local Yes group and get out there.

    48. Thepnr says:

      @The Man in the Jar

      A Socialist voting No, the irony hahahaha.

    49. CameronB says:

      Bit quite in hear.

      New rule suggestion. No gap between posts longer than 5 minutes, or I’ll really open the musical taps. 🙂

      Slim Smith & The Upsetters – What a Situation

    50. CameronB says:

      Time’s up.

      The Upsetters – Ten To Twelve

    51. Albamac says:

      This is the link to the full Dispatches story on Channel 4 but you have to register with 4oD to watch.

      The Paedophile MP: How Cyril Smith Got Away with It

    52. Paula Rose says:

      @ CameronB – darling I think the Rev might get upset if we start posting random words just to stop you acting out your DJ fantasy!!!

    53. Andy-B says:

      A cheery wee independence song, to brighten the day up.

    54. Juteman says:

      I’m surprised that nobody has commented on Nano being Onan read backwards.
      Quite suitable, I would think.

    55. CameronB says:

      I posted a link a WEE while back to what appeared to be a thoroughly research piece covering the legal actions and criminal investigations that have been going on in relation to this, over the last thirty years or so.

      It looks very much like Boys Town in the USA (1980s) and is related to a Pedeofile rights organisation that originated in the US, through freedom of speech legislation loopholes. Similarly it goes all the way in to government and involves murder and MSM cover-up.

      That is my understanding, anyway.

    56. CameronB says:

      Paula Rose
      I’ve already made my fantasy come true. ‘Mon Scotland. 🙂

      I just thought folk were perhaps being a bit lazy. 😉

      I shall desist.

    57. Desimond says:

      O/T But surely the Rev can once again highlight this nonsense about bail-outs please. Danny Alexander…what a horrible man, says in a joint statement with Gideon..

      “The UK would not put its taxpayers at risk of bailing out a foreign country and its banks. Parliament wouldn’t pass it, and the people wouldn’t accept it.”

    58. Thistle says:


      New Indy live stream event on Monday from Motherwell at 7:30pm, with great panel.

      Details of this event and future ones at:

      See our test live stream archived video from today at:

      Scottish Independence Live Events

    59. Croompenstein says:

      @Albamac@3:41 – Spot on, these f*ckers should not be allowed near our nurseries and schools unless they are specifically the minister responsible for Education. Have they had enhanced disclosure done? People like Cyril Smith were aided and abetted by their peers and they make me f*cking sick

    60. jacksloan2013 says:

      Sorry to be off topic but BBC TV coverage of the audience at Liberal Party Conference was kept to tight shots and only occasionally showed the entire hall. When it did give a glimpse of it it looked about half full at best even for some of the ‘important’ speakers. Can anyone confirm this? If so, is it another sign from members of unionist parties of a lack of commitment to BT?

    61. CameronB says:

      OK, last one. You had 10 minutes though. 🙂

      This is for all track list makers. One for the pot so to speak, or progressive “pulling and sharing”.

      NOT what British Labour are offering Scotland.

      Trojan Mod Reggae 2 Full Box Set

      Just as I was about to post. 😉

    62. SquareHaggis says:


      You mighta warned us!
      Still tryin to blow the tea out of my nose after catching sight of that one

    63. Paula Rose says:

      Totally O/T… but if we are going to have some tunes, lets stick with our own genius –

    64. CameronB says:

      Paula Rose

    65. Thepnr says:

      The Better Together campaign has so far exactly matched that of the anti-Independence campaign against Quebec in 1995.

      You won’t be able to share a currency with Canada

      You will be expelled from NAFTA (read EU)

      You will not be able to join NATO

      I don’t expect any difference as we approach the run in. So here’s what to expect, probably in the final 4 weeks.

      Constitutional reform offer

      At the last minute of the campaign, under pressure from the Quebeckers within the team, the No side decided to set out a clearer offer of constitutional reform after a No vote. On 25 October in a televised address, Jean Chretien said that Canada should accept Quebec’s basic demands, short of sovereignty:

      We must recognise that Quebec’s language, its culture and institutions make it a distinct society. And no constitutional change that affects the powers of Quebec should ever be made without the consent of Quebeckers. And that all governments – federal and provincial – must respond to the desire of Canadians –everywhere – for greater decentralisation.

      Yes side makes progress

      As the referendum approached, it became apparent form opinion polls that the Yes campaign was beginning to make progress. There were some indications of a rise in tactical voting, where Quebeckers thought that sovereignty would be rejected but that a strong Yes showing would give Quebec a stronger hand in constitutional amendment negotiations after the vote, with as many as a third of those intending to vote Yes supporting this reasoning.

      In October, one of the last opinion polls put the Yes campaign slightly ahead.

      Montreal Rally

      At the last moment federalists, worried that the Yes campaign would win, took action by proposing some concrete constitutional reforms after a No vote and mounting a huge pro-Canada rally in Montreal’s Place du Canada. Well over 100,000 people gathered, many encouraged by their employers, in a final attempt to halt the momentum of the Yes side.

      Depending on your viewpoint, the rally could be seen as an “outpouring of love” or a “tawdry closing-time seduction,” but it may have had the effect of persuading enough voters to go for No.

      We are not Canada though. We are Scots and will not be fooled so easily. Their tactics are transparent, their lies obvious and their motivation selfish. We will vote Yes for a better future.

    66. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ CameronB – I am sure you are a really nice person but I do NOT want to be part of your ‘fantasy’ with YouTube.

      Several posters over the last few days have hinted and nudged you to be more circumspect with your incessant links to the music of your choice. Now you suggest that commenters are lazy if they do not post within 5 minutes.

      I have 2 points to make to you. If Rev’s recent push to get more readers for Wings on the grounds of credibile political information do you think they want to read or listen to your DJ Library?

      If these new readers or others consider funding Wings in the future on the grounds of reputation and readability will they reconsider their donation due to you continually interrupting the natural flow of debate.

      Please put your fantasy links in the Quarantine folder – That is what it is there for.

    67. Faltdubh says:

      Great post, Thepnr.

      I was looking at Quebec this week and although I was 11 in 1995 it looks almost parrallel the campaigns.

      60 odd thousand the differences in the numbers between statehood for them and a No vote.

      Was that 100k in Montreal thing, not Canadians from other provinces to tell Quebec that they love them etc – a bit like this love bombing or hands across the border that Rory Stewart is trying to organise.

    68. Paula Rose says:


      Is that when the masses congregate on Hadrian’s Wall and wave at us?

    69. Croompenstein says:

      @the pnr – our problem will be those who are so blind they cannot see, we are on the right track but must be on our guard as it will play out pretty much how you have described.

    70. Brotyboy says:


      Re; Onan, I remember Woody Allen’s quote. “Hey, don’t knock masturbation; it’s sex with someone you love.”

      Sorry about the punctuation,working off a tablet and Wi-Fi from a street cafe in Italy.

    71. caz-m says:

      Ming Campbell really is the Scottish version of the establishment. He really is a nasty man, with NO feelings for Scots or Scotland.

      He is a warmonger, is pro-trident and will do or say anything to save the Union.

      He is in the London elite and when we become Independent he will become a foreigner, an outsider, an immigrant.

      He will not be a true Brit and therefore not on the same level as his inner circle of English pals.

      How could he ever look them in the eye again as an equal Brit.

      He would be forever know as “Ming the Migrant”.

      He will walk the darkened streets of Old London Town with other outcasts like Andrew Marr and Andrew Neil.

      All because they had the misfortune to be born in …Scotland!!! Howwwwllllssss!!!!

    72. CameronB says:

      Archie [not Erchie]
      I hear you but what was that I heard earlier about BBC APPROVED play lists? Sure I got complaints but I also got a lot of support, including explicit compliments of my style and music choice.

      How much for the quarantine gig?

      How much for me to be your bitch? $10 sucky sucky?

      Back in your box please and lets move forwards.

    73. schrodingers cat says:

      Is it any surprise the British Establishment and its acolytes are squealing like stuck pigs – they no longer think they are losing, they know they are losing.

      stolen from mjmm on the guardian

    74. Paula Rose says:

      No tunes till after midnight would be my preference.

    75. CameronB says:

      I’m happy to play by any FAIR rules.

    76. CameronB says:

      Cheers for the rope Conan.

    77. Votadini Jeannie says:

      Why do I keep misreading Devo Nano as Devo Nancy…

    78. Desimond says:


      I apologise…to compensate the discomfort, have a look at the article again and at the picture of Danny looking lovingly at Orbornes red box…you can almost hear him whisper “my Precious”

    79. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      Red Ed has got Devo-confusion on multiple fronts:

      He needs to send Johann down to Wales to explain how it works to them.

    80. Flower of Scotland says:


      I’m one of Mings constituents and I agree wholeheartedly with you. He doesn’t live here in N.E.Fife , but has a holiday house here! He was done for extreme expenses and I truly dislike the guy. He is always so smug when he is warmongering! A right know it all!

      Good article Rev! I think I understand it all better now, but it’s still NO THANKS I’ll just stick to Independence if you don’t mind Labour, JoLa or whoever!

    81. mogabee says:

      Grateful Stu. for this explanation of what Labour propose.

      Not surprising really though, they have form with the set-up of the Scottish Parly and rigging the voting system to keep the SNP out.

      What’s that about repeating a mistake and expecting a different reality?

    82. CameronB says:

      Flower of Scotland
      Is he not also a bit suspect on supporting the principle of habeas corpus?

    83. SquareHaggis says:

      Sorry Desimond but once bitten twice shy.

      YEUCH! Shivers and tremors…

    84. jingly jangly says:

      Archie [not Erchie]
      I concur with you about Cameron B’s music links , its ok to post an occasional music link but this pish all the time is getting on ma tits.
      Its time the Rev either banned him particularly after his response to you.

    85. CameronB says:

      Okey dokey

    86. CameronB says:

      Who’s your next analyst trained in planning and social survey?

    87. Better Together St Kilda says:

      @ CameronB

      Come to UKOK on facebook and play your tunes – the puffins love a bop, and it gets right up the gannets beaks.

    88. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      O/T – Don’t think this has been posted before.
      Actress Freya Mavor is a YES.

    89. David Agnew says:

      Its increasingly clear that Scottish Labour are much like the Lib-dems. Useful idiots for the two Tory parties in Westminster. It’s also clear that Cameron would not be too fussed if Scotland left. yes or no – he knows that labour is going to trigger the same outrage that the Tories did back in the day, and like the Tories be just as unelectable as them.

      Would not be surprised that he sees this as a win win for him.

    90. Seasick Dave says:

      Aye, keep the music links in quarantine.

    91. CameronB says:

      Better Together St Kilda
      One of my German girlfriend’s uncle used to be best mates with Tam Connery. Weight training and swimming out to the Bass Rock, to go plundering.

      A bit brave. 🙂

    92. Juteman says:

      Your heart is in the right place Cameron, and I don’t want to see you getting banned. Take your music to quarantine and nobody will mind.;-)

    93. CameronB says:

      Seasick Dave
      A page to themselves rather than quarantine? I don’t look to upset people but I think there is something very wrong about posting positive messages in quarantine. No?

    94. Juan Pablo Del Roomigrant says:


      I can put up wae a’bodys postings.

      We are in realtime campaigning.

      Folk are attracted tae this site.

      We are aw talkative, bit maist ae us jis read.

      The wan hing aboot steam is ye cannae see it, bit depending whit kind it is, burny ur smelly mibbe even refreshing,it is still steam.

    95. CameronB says:

      Ironically most of today’s tunes have come from a band called the Upsetters. 🙂

    96. Desimond says:


      Thanks for that.
      Makes up for me having to read Aberdonian actress Rose Leslie (Game of Thrones) in a recent London Standard saying “Im a No. If I have to be dictated to by either Brusells or Westminster, I choose Westminster”.

      My jaw still aches from dropping.

    97. SquareHaggis says:

      Anyone out and about in Aiberdeen 2moro, Blue Lamp 3 o’clock

      Should be interesting

    98. Patrick Roden says:

      Great analysis Rev.

      The thing that struck me most about this from the start though, was how the ‘Baker Email’ contradicted Johann Lamont’s very public statements.

      She will be feeling very betrayed right now, and we might just see the very fragile truce that has just about held Scottish Labour together, for the past year or so, finally crumble.

      These people are so arrogant and out of touch, once the civil war starts, they will be unable to halt it.

      So get your popcorn and Irn Bru ready folks, things might be about to get very interesting!

    99. Thepnr says:

      I’m a dissenter, if you want to post links to youtube songs, then just you carry on. This is a site where EVERY opinion is welcome. Or am I wrong?

      The world is made up of all sorts, and in my view at least ALL are welcome. If you don’t like that then you always have the option of posting elsewhere.

      This is NOT an exclusive club.

    100. CameronB says:


    101. Juteman says:

      I should add, Camerons youtube links don’t bother me, as I just skip over them.
      My suggestion to take them to quarantine was to try and solve a minor dispute.

    102. Albamac says:


      Aye, whit a surprise! Whit wid ever possess an ordinary Aberdonian lassie tae say naw tae her ain country?

      From Wikipedia:

      Leslie was born in Aberdeen, and grew up in Lickleyhead Castle, her family’s 15th century ancestral seat, before moving to England for school. Her father is Sebastian Arbuthnot-Leslie, the Aberdeenshire Chieftain of Clan Leslie, and her mother is Candida Mary Sibyl “Candy” Leslie (née Weld). Leslie is the third of five children. Her parents own the 12th century Warthill Castle in Aberdeenshire

      Ah, we ken noo!

    103. CameronB says:

      I have no problem with anyone on this site, appart from the ones with whom I do do…..da doo ron ron. 🙂

    104. Flower of Scotland says:

      Come on folks leave CameronB alone! Isn’t it great to read all the posts , even the music ones! It’s interesting and unique! It keeps ME going on!

    105. CameronB says:

      Apparently there’s a stushy in Aberdeen involving Pedophilia, cops, judges and government officials, apparently. I think the girls name began with M.

    106. CameronB says:

      You might not have heard of it through the MSM. Funny that, eh?

    107. Seasick Dave says:


      A page to themselves would be braw!

    108. Albamac says:


      Apparently there’s a stushy in Aberdeen involving Pedophilia

      Aye, thanks for that, but I’m not on the case. 🙂

    109. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ CameronB “How much for me to be your bitch? $10 sucky sucky?”

      Now I was really polite in my last post to you bearing in mind the thousands of folk that read this website from all over the world.

      Your comment above belongs in the Twittersphere.

      I would be more than happy to dip into your positive music video links as long as they were on a different page. On occasion there are nearly 400 posts to go through on a good day, its really hard to follow posts and replies and so on without lists and lists of your favourite music tracks.

      Please [2nd time] be a bit more sensitive to others. You will not lose your kuodos if you post in Quarantine and we will all know you are there.

      $10 dollars? With your music taste lets bargain at $5 bitch 🙂

    110. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ CameronB “How much for me to be your bitch? $10 sucky sucky?”

      Now I was really polite in my last post to you bearing in mind the thousands of folk that read this website from all over the world.

      Your comment above belongs in the Twittersphere.

      I would be more than happy to dip into your positive music video links as long as they were on a different page. On occasion there are nearly 400 posts to go through on a good day, its really hard to follow posts and replies and so on without lists and lists of your favourite music tracks.

      Please [2nd time] be a bit more sensitive to others. You will not lose your kuodos if you post in Quarantine and we will all know you are there.

      $10 dollars? With your music taste lets bargain at $5 bitch 🙂

    111. Desimond says:


      Wow, that kinda puts things in perspective, no wonder shes popping up in the ultra right wing London Standard.

      I wonder if Game of Thrones is just her familys version on Who Do You Think You Are 🙂

    112. CameronB says:

      Your comment above belongs in the Twittersphere.

      I don’t think you have thought things through. I might be wrong?

      No hard feelings?

    113. Albamac says:


      I’ve watched her in interviews and, although she manages a passable Northern accent in Game of Thrones, I think she’d have to stretch a bit to push it over the border.

    114. Croompenstein says:

      @Desimond – what odds on her being a ‘Proud’ Scot!

    115. Albamac says:


      Don’t think anyone will be offering odds on that. 😉

    116. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

      O/T – The DR post-deleting Nazis seem to be having a big day today:

    117. SquareHaggis says:

      Fellow posters – ma taw Pees worth

      I posted a set of lyrics from the Paulo Nutini tune Iron Sky last night but they were quickly deleted.

      I thought to ask myself why?
      Then decided to check the commenting rules where I was shocked to discovered I had committed THEE number one cardinal sin.

      Sorry Stu! Will not happen again.

      Looking at this from my newly enlightened standpoint, having read the very fair and open rules it’s true for me at least now just how easy it is to forget oneself in the moment and post just any old tripe.

      All credit to the man behind this site who is working tirelessly for independence EVERY SINGLE DAY!

      This article in particular would have been a journalists nightmare and beyond the capability of many.

      It’s a special gift the Rev sharing with us here and we should at least try and value and respect his blog.

    118. CameronB says:

      Folk don’t have to click the links. A combination of artist name or song title is usually enough to give you the gist of the message.

      Do you want the full picture or the approved story?

    119. CameronB says:

      There is only one voice I will obey here. You have been warned. Whooooooo. 🙂

    120. Albamac says:


      There is only one voice I will obey here. You have been warned. Whooooooo

      That seems fair enough, unless it speaks to you when nobody else is around? 🙂

    121. Albamac says:

      Ditch question mark in previous post!

    122. CameronB says:

      I wonder if schrodingers cat has anything to say on the matter?

    123. jingly jangly says:

      As long as its not to early in the thread there is no issue with posting song lyrics, or links including songs , however what I and others have been saying is that it gets irritating when the thread gets taken over by multiple posts.

      There are upwards of 300 posts now in each topic, its getting heavy going reading them all and if you have to constantly have to trawl through multiple off topic posts them its turning people away from the site. I know a couple of people who don’t bother reading the comments any more due to this.

      I am very close to joining them. After that its a very short step to get out of the habit of checking wings frequently, then you just check a couple of times a day, then you skip a day, then you forget.

    124. Thepnr says:

      Listen, I might be out of order here but I know your not sleeping right by the times of your posts. It’s none of my business at all as I don’t know you but in a way I do feel concerned for you. I’ve been reading your posts for over a year but just lately they are sending a different message.

      I think your stressed buddy and a wee break might do you good. I saw your earlier posts about coming to Dundee, well I’m not far from there. Send me an email if you like to thepnr [at] mailinator [dot] com

    125. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ CameronB – 🙂 and a bottle of best ale booked for you.

    126. Paula Rose says:

      Dear CameronB and all you lovely boys – we must remember that we have lots of lovely new readers – I think they now know that they can go to other parts of wings for witty stuff, lets leave the main threads for the serious stuff – agreed?

    127. Albamac says:


      I wonder if schrodingers cat has anything to say on the matter?”

      Don’t know – he may be in Copenhagen but I don’t have contact details, so I couldn’t even say if he’s dead or alive.

    128. SquareHaggis says:

      @Jingly Jangly

      Yep, I’m getting that way myself sadly.
      In saying that, I’ve posted some crap on here myself but am new to this kind of thing and did get wrapped up in the monkey see monkey do mentality.
      Won’t stop me coming here to get my daily dose of highly valuable news though as it’s really quite addictive.

      As to BTL, maybe no so much for a wee while.

    129. CameronB says:

      Stressed yes, as in PTSD. What you might be noticing also, is excitement. I smell blood. 🙂

      Cheers brother, for taking the interest and for the kindness. It would be good to meet up with like minds. Play it by ear, darling? 😉

      What you might also be noticing is my growing confidence, now that I have gotten to where I planned to be, after being so forcibly excluded, a WEE while back. 😉

      P.S. I worked in planning practice, got my degree and DEVELOPED a on-demand digital print business from the foundations of my first business (Cutting Edge Design) AFTER my brain injury. I might be wrong but I think I can take care of myself. No offense. 😉

    130. CameronB says:


    131. Paula Rose says:

      This fog is damn tricky.

    132. goldenayr says:

      You have,ostensibly,covered the points raised.You have however neglected the calls for Barnett to be abolished altogether.A point I raised in an earlier thread,where some labour MPs are calling for a distribution of funds on a per capita basis.This would mean cities like Manchester,Newcastle and Liverpool receiving more than Scotlands GDP while only contributing less than half.

      This is the real reason for the calls for more devolved power to the “regions”.

    133. Thepnr says:

      No offence taken, if you do plan to come to Dundee I’d like you to get in touch. I mean that.

    134. CameronB says:

      Love to and will do. 😉

    135. Paula Rose says:

      ( Bit O/T but – Thepnr & CameronB, come and have a sherry in Brechin xx)

    136. CameronB says:


    137. Marcia says:

      I see that Labour at UK level are struggling. Now polling at 33%, 1 point ahead of the Tories;

      The Labour front bench are just boring according to some of the comment below the article.

    138. CameronB says:

      I think the game was a bogie for British Labour, when we got to see page four of the advanced Devo Nano. Go look up imperialism. Anyone got a link?

    139. Bevrijdingsdag says:

      If you like it, enjoy it! If you don’t like it, avoid it!
      If you don’t like it and can’t avoid it, change it!
      And if you don’t like it, can’t avoid it nor change it,
      accept it!

    140. CameronB says:


    141. Paula Rose says:

      CameronB – chains await dear.

    142. Croompenstein says:

      @Marcia – It is inevitable as Ed Milliband is not a statesman he is trying too hard to appeal to SE and Middle but has alienated old style Labour with his love of Thatcher and wish to distance from the unions, as I said in another post he has as much charisma as a bulldog licking pish aff a nettle!

    143. CameronB says:

      Whoooooo. 🙂

    144. Iain More says:

      We can still see the BS – It is no cloudy enough.

    145. Andrew Morton says:

      Just done a quick tot up and CameronB has posted 28% of the comments on this thread. Very few of them were on topic. This is not a criticism of CameronB, merely an observation.

    146. goldenayr says:

      Should that not be “off a thistle”?

    147. handclapping says:

      Sort of OT
      Trying to track down what National Insurance actually pays for, it was back to the beginning of the Welfare State and I came across this
      written in the fog of war but so clearly expressed. How far has the Labour Party fallen?

      Completely OT
      “from the cradle to the grave” was first used by … TaRa TaRa
      Winston Churchill, IDS please note

    148. CameronB says:

      “Infamy! Infamy! They’ve all got it in for me!” 🙂

    149. Ian Brotherhood says:

      It’s got to the point where I’m scared to bring this subject up, and I’m wary of using current threads to ‘send messages’ to folk I can’t reach otherwise.

      The ‘Quarantine’ thread is not fit for purpose. We need a new place – preferably one that doesn’t sound like a leper colony.

      Recently, WoS has become markedly more active – not just in terms of comments posted etc, but the nature of activity more generally. We NEED a space where we can attend to activity-related nuts and bolts, and the current Quarantine just doesn’t cut it.

      I’ve asked Rev half a dozen times. Just before Christmas (first time I asked) he said he’d think about it. Clearly, the man is busy, and we all appreciate that, but many of us are busy too, in different ways – we share the same aim, so…

      Could some of you please echo my appeal for a new space in which we can conduct business unrelated to whatever thread happens to be current? (It doesn’t matter what it’s called. That’s Rev’s shout.)

      The Glasgow gig is less than a week away, and I don’t want to have to constantly scan ever-lengthening threads to find out if someone has asked about it. Aside from anything else, new readers directed to Quarantine are immediately confronted with a very old and unpleasant correspondence involving a notorious troll. It’s really off-putting, even to people familiar with that whole episode.

      This is the last time I’ll bring this subject up – this is Rev’s pad, and he’s entitled to do what he wants with it, but I’m properly scunnered at having to repeat the same request – would someone else mind having a shot?

    150. Thepnr says:

      The way I see it is if you read ALL the articles and ALL the posts, then the clues are there. What would leave you mostly paralysed down the left hand side, suffering from PTSD and a brain injury?

      My guess would be a shot to the head. We shouldn’t judge people, for what do we know?

    151. goldenayr says:

      And so the merry goes round.

    152. Paula Rose says:

      CameronB – darling, I have some delightful adult entertainment lined up for you – so no more ‘tunes’ dear until after midnight, OK?

    153. CameronB says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      Perhaps it is clear why I wouldn’t join you gang? That cryptic enough for ya?

    154. CameronB says:

      Cool as.

    155. goldenayr says:


      A reply button is easiest.

    156. Tam Jardine says:

      Thanks Stuart- I didn’t really understand Scottish labour’s proposals for devo-nano and now I realise that they are incomprehensible. I feel like we have come full circle from crazyhorse’s collapse at the hands of Gordon Brewer. We have found ourselves right where we started, in absolute disbelief.

      Years from now students of politics will write essays pon whether JoLa or her colleagues were correct in their interpretation of the devo-nano comission report. Long, boring essays. It is beyond my ken.

      Thing is, while Scottish labour is doing the policy equivalent of cracking one off in the shower, on the ground the yes troops are working hard getting on with the business of winning this referendum. There is fear in the heart of BT as they realise they have left it too late to BEGIN a positive campaign.

      I heard a great quote to the effect that if everyone who was going to vote yes convinced 1 other to vote yes we’ll win. And there are a multitude working on friends and colleagues every day.

      spose this my way of saying lets hold together and get past all this shite about music- its not important. Have a guid saturday night

    157. CameronB says:

      Last post meant for Paula Rose.

    158. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “There is only one voice I will obey here.”

      Man, I hope it’s mine. Can we try to keep music videos and off-topic chat to, well, Off-Topic (aka Quarantine), being that what it was created for and everything? That’d be peachy. Comment threads are long and daunting enough for new folk to follow as it is.

    159. CameronB says:

      Will co…over and out. 😉

    160. CameronB says:

      Hope its clear also Rev, why I said what I said. Sorry new readers but you weren’t there. 😉

    161. scottish_skier says:

      I see that Labour at UK level are struggling

      Aye, Tories moving towards level pegging. Popping up in all the polls now.

      Basically, UKIPers are going to UKIP for the EU elections then Tory for the GE. Labour are screwed. Even if they brought in a new, half decent leader it’s too late.

      A note No in September is a vote for the Tories and they be so pleased if folks do that. Would be positively rubbing their hands with glee!

    162. cearc says:

      I second Ian’s request for a new off topic thread.

      Perhaps even a monthly one so that it doesn’t get too huge as quarantine is now.

      O/T Mar ’14. etc.

      Please Stu.

    163. Schrodingers cat says:

      life at the arse end of an uncollapsed 11th dimensional probability wave isnt all its cracked up to be.

    164. Morag says:

      I also think Ian’s suggestion is an excellent one and I hope Stu will consider it. I know he doesn’t want to run a forum, but a single monthly let-off-steam, and pass messages thread should actually mean less work.

    165. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @cearc & Morag –

      High-five, both. Cheers.

    166. jingly jangly says:

      O/T Im with Ian and I think cearc’s idea of a monthly O/T section is a great idea.

    167. Desimond says:

      Can I suggest a name for a new thread for the stray posts…call it The Sanctuary

    168. bobdog collie says:

      I might be a bit thick but can someone correct me if i am wrong
      If Scotland raises any taxes at all say by 5p does the money raised get subtracted from our Barnet revenue and if that is so why raise taxes at all as our overall income will be the same

      Sorry if I appear dense but is that the Labour plan? or part of it

    169. CameronB says:

      Precisely. 🙂

    170. Albamac says:

      I suppose I’ve just helped to demonstrate how easy it is to stray further and further away from the original topic.

      No sabotage intended and I don’t make a habit of it. Come to think of it, I don’t make a habit of saying much of anything on Wings. I’m just a friendly sort who doesn’t end a conversation abruptly by blanking other participants as if they’d ceased to exist.

      In my defence, I’d have to say that my parents are to blame for conditioning me to a particular set of good manners and common courtesy. It’s very difficult to abandon the habits of a lifetime and, recognising that I may be a difficult case, perhaps I should avoid the temptation to engage so freely in future.

      I do understand concerns about the reputation of the site, swamping threads, etcetera, but I pose no such threat and you’d have to push me really hard before I’d agree that a short flurry of friendly conversation would frighten new readers away from this site.

      Wings over Scotland is,in my opinion, the best site of its kind, providing well-written, thoroughly researched and insightful articles which generate intelligent, informative and engaging responses from its readers. I read every word but rarely contribute to the discussion because others have covered the ground and, although it has its uses in, education, politics, propaganda, indoctrination and brainwashing, I tend to avoid repetition.

      In my bookmarks folder labelled ‘News’, Wings is top of the list and is my first stop when I open my browser. I visit other sites in that category only to find out what mischief they’re up to.

      I’ve explained why I didn’t respond to unofficial warnings, I’ve given my reasons for reading much more than I write and I’ve offered a little insight into how I engage in conversation but, for me, the most striking aspect of this petty squabble is the ease with which harmony was displaced by discord.

      I get the feeling that the partial reconciliation that followed is, at best, an uneasy truce.

      I didn’t expect this storm in a teacup. If I’d known it was coming, I’d have baked the cake.


      Forgot the apologetic preface to this off-topic contribution to the discussion of the off-topic portion of this topic.

    171. Croompenstein says:

      @Albamac says No sabotage intended and I don’t make a habit of it

      You have not sabotaged anything Albamac, I love your posts keep on posting you have as much right as anyone else

    172. CameronB says:

      I bought my first pair of crushers hear in Camden, a coupe of years after this was filmed. I am proud to say I died with my blue sued shoes on. 🙂

      Fortunately the Scottish Health Service had just provided Edinburgh with Paramedic ambulances, so it was all ok once mum kissed it better.

      Madness – The Prince

      Does this one get the submission? 🙂

      Muskyteers (a.k.a. The Silvertones [?]) & The Upsetter (a.k.a. Lee Perry) – “Kiddy O”

    173. CameronB says:

      Lets move forwards to YES.

    174. Ken500 says:

      ‘Equal’ tax in the UK? Oil and Whisky is taxed at 80%. Multinationals (foreign) in the City of London tax evade and pay no tax. Funding is not distributed fairly or spent on the most vulnerable. It is spent on illegal wars, redundant weaponry,Trident, tax evasion and banking fraud. If Scotland was Independent the UK would be funded more equally. All countries have different tax regimes.

      5 people in the UK, own more wealth than 1/5 (20%) of the population.

    175. Alba4Eva says:

      Excellent article Stu. “We need answers” is what they say… well, they can be found here and Labours’ knee jerk – half baked – nonsence proposals uncovered very elequently above, should be enough alone for any ‘undecided’ to come to the right decision that YES and full independence emppwers us fully and is in Scotlands best interests.

    176. Alba4Eva says:

      oops… ’empowers’

    177. Craig P says:

      Back on topic:

      Given the proposed Barnett reduction, perhaps BoJo can be paraphrased:

      “A pound raised in Strathclyde is a pound spent in Croydon.”

    178. bobdog collie says:

      Thank you Cameron B

    179. CameronB says:

      bobdog collie

    180. Paula Rose says:

      The problem with a separate thread is that all the witty folk will be there instead of here, which will be all high falutin’ and the Rev will get bored.

    181. CameronB says:

      His problem. 🙂

    182. Robert Peffers says:

      Can I clarify the actually quite simple, Barnett Formula for you? Either our Westminster Members are totally ignorant of the Barnett Formula’s purpose or they imagine the entire electorate are totally mystified by it. Rocket Science it is NOT. We must only understand the need for the ”Barnett Formula”, and what it was designed to do in the first place to debunk the lies and myths.

      In 1978, the whole, “United Kingdom”, needing severe public spending cuts and we also had Scottish pressures on Westminster for Devolved Powers. The first problem that devolved power faces is, “The Westminster unified revenue raising department and centralised power control”. This because, if powers are delegated, (devolved), then so must the funding to operate the devolved powers be transferred to the Devolved administration. For example, you cannot run a Health Service on fresh air. So the NHS Stamp and other taxation are taken from Scotland by the centralised Westminster Treasury and a method of deciding what transferred funding is NEEDED, to run it had to be devised. Enter Joel Barnett – Stage left. So now you know where the term, “Needs based”, comes from. It is the need to fund the extra power that Westminster no longer directly funds.

      You will now also understand the myths and lies propagated by Westminster and the media such as this, taken from an English based media outlet, According to official figures from the Treasury, 2010/11 projected average UK government spending per person was £10,212 in Scotland, compared to just £8,588 in England. Spending was also higher in Wales (£9,829) and Northern Ireland (£10,706). The reason that the totals for the three devolved administrations differ is because they each have different levels of devolved powers. Neither do the myth and lie makers explain that in the case of Scotland our 8.4% of the total United Kingdom population raises 9.4% of the total United Kingdom Revenues.

      Sae noo ye ken.

    183. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The ‘Quarantine’ thread is not fit for purpose. We need a new place”

      I haven’t the remotest idea why one off-topic thread would be any different to another, but:

    184. CameronB says:

      Not stirring but the name? Are we not men, V.I.R.U.S.

    185. CameronB says:

      The secret is timing and foresight.

    186. CameronB says:

      And please stop removing my posts

    187. CameronB says:


      Sounds like a rousing Chumbawamba number. 🙂

    188. CameronB says:

      Remember kids.infrastructure pricing models and the RTPI.

      …………..infrastructure pricing models and the RTPI.

      …………..infrastructure pricing models and the RTPI.

      See you all soon, maybeez.

      Whooooooo. 🙂

    189. CameronB says:

      True indyref Revelation; my professional advancement may have been hindered due to my opposition towards Fabian philosophy.

      Just saying.

    190. CameronB says:

      And that is how you settle a 25 year old score.

    191. CameronB says:

      I was doing all that and catching rats at thee same time. Do I have to do it all myself? 🙂

    192. CameronB says:

      And what about the quality of music pics? 🙂

    193. CameronB says:

      Too political for yah? 🙂

    194. CameronB says:

      Actually, I’ll let you in to a little secret. Catch the big rats and the little rats is all part of the same process. They can not function apart. Figure that one out. 😉

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