The Devo Nano Policy Explosion
We’ve had a second response from a Labour elected representative to a reader, regarding our six simple factual questions about the party’s “Devo Nano” proposals for the Scottish Parliament. This one’s from Richard Baker, regional MSP for North East Scotland and Labour’s former Shadow Finance Secretary.
We were extremely surprised by its contents. You can read the reply, stripped only of two paragraphs of introductory waffle about Keir Hardie, below.
“Thank you for your interest in Labour’s proposals to further extend and enhance devolution for Scotland within the United Kingdom.
Our starting principle is that we believe in a society in which resources are pooled and shared across the whole country, and in which those with the broadest shoulders and greatest resources contribute most to the support of those in need.
Our report is wide-ranging and includes a number of recommendations, including:
- Further devolution of income tax, discussed in more detail below.
- Devolution of housing benefit and attendance allowance, to align more closely the provision of benefits in an area closely related to devolved services.
- Devolution of the work programme to Scottish local authorities to better meet the needs of local labour markets.
The report of the commission is extensive and also includes proposals to increase the powers available to our island communities, to improve local democratic accountability and to establish better enforcement mechanisms for health and safety in Scotland, including the establishment of a Scottish Health and Safety executive.
On income tax, we believe that the changes made by the Scotland Act 2012 are significant, but there is scope to go further.
- Labour would therefore give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act.
- We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p up to 15p.
- This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament.
- The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.
- Equally, it would be possible to use the same power to increase tax, above the UK level, across all bands.
- Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax.
Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Labour’s policy is that fair taxation for the highest earners would be achieved by setting the additional rate at 50p.
Thank you for your interest in the final report of our devolution commission. If you require any more detail on our income tax policy, this can be found on page 148 – 151 of the report. If you wish to read the full report, it can be found on the Scottish Labour website.
Yours sincerely,
Richard Baker MSP
North East Scotland”
The reason for our surprise is that the passages in the letter that we’ve highlighted above do in fact directly address all but one of the six questions – Mr Baker states unequivocally that Scotland would be able to undercut the UK on all tax bands, and also to have higher rates across all tax bands.
And that’s very interesting indeed, because it’s completely at odds with what Johann Lamont told Gordon Brewer on Newsnight Scotland last week:
BREWER: But I thought you said they couldn’t put it down?
LAMONT: What they can’t do, they can’t reduce it below what the level is set at a UK level.
Lamont further clarifies the answer later in the interview:
LAMONT [after pause]: I wouldn’t have thought so. Why would we, you know, why would we do that?
BREWER: Well, would we have the power to do that, that’s what I’m asking.
We’ve read and re-read all the quotes, and we can’t see any way out. Johann Lamont unequivocally said that Scotland COULD NOT have a top rate of tax lower than the UK’s. Richard Baker equally unequivocally says “The Scottish Parliament could [..] choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.”
Uncharitably, one of them is lying. Or charitably, Labour themselves don’t have a clue what their actual policy is, after spending two years coming up with it.
Johann Lamont also said in the same interview that:
“What we don’t want is a position – the concern of course around Corporation Tax – is tax competition.
We took the judgement that actually there might be an issue, if you had the flexibility to cut as well as raise the top level, you might create a degree of tax competition across the United Kingdom.”
Yet what Richard Baker has explicitly and unambiguously outlined is a situation where you COULD have completely free tax competition between Scotland and the UK, across all tax bands. The only restriction would be that if Scotland cut or raised taxes relative to the UK, it would have to do so across all bands simultaneously.
(Unless it was just the upper rate, in which case it could put it up but not down. Except you could put it down so long as you didn’t go below the UK level. As long as you put all the other rates down at the same time, creating exactly the competition between parts of the UK Labour claim to be determined above all else to avoid.)
We look forward to further clarification with great interest.
And by Monday Richard Baker will have had his arse slapped & we will be given an official “clarification”.
Probably.
How embarrassing…AGAIN!
Lamont says one thing and Baker says another, neither one agreeing with the other. I may be wide of the mark here but I’d suggest there seems to be a wee bit of utter confusion amongst the rank and file in the Labour party.
I have just received a reply from Siobhan McMahon at 16:31 today 28/04/2014
I have posted it on the original article but here it is.
Dear Mr. *****
Thank you for your interest in Labour’s proposals to further extend and enhance devolution for Scotland within the United Kingdom.
As you may be aware, in spring 2012, Johann Lamont established a Devolution Commission to examine what could be done to strengthen devolution further. Following two years of deliberations and a year-long public consultation, our proposals were published on 18th March.
With regard to income tax, we believe that the changes made by the Scotland Act 2012 are significant, but there is scope to go further.
· Labour would therefore give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act.
· We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p up to 15p.
· This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament.
· The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.
· Equally, it would be possible to use the same power to increase tax, above the UK level, across all bands.
· Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax.
Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Labour’s policy is that fair taxation for the highest earners would be achieved by setting the additional rate at 50p.
Thank you for your interest in the final report of our devolution commission. If you require any more detail on our income tax policy, this can be found on page 148 – 151 of the report. If you wish to read the full report, it can be found on the Scottish Labour website at link to scottishlabour.org.uk
Yours sincerely
Siobhan McMahon MSP
Member of the Scottish Parliament for Central Scotland
I have already replied to the e-mail to which the text quoted above was attached, asking exactly Stu’s question. Either Mr. Baker or Mrs. Lamont is mistaken and I have asked for clarification.
Our starting principle is that we believe in a society in which resources are pooled and shared across the whole country, and in which those with the broadest shoulders and greatest resources contribute most to the support of those in need.
That wouldn’t be something for nothing would it?
Johann is not going to like that.
At last! Clarity from Labour!!!1!
(I’m being sarcastic.)
Long time reader de-lurking to comment :). This is almost identical to a reply I got from Siobhan McMahon!
Gosh, Siobhan McMahon seems to have come up with something terribly similar to what Richard Baker did, except without the bit about Keir Hardie.
So it seems awfully like nobody just mis-spoke: this is an official line sent out by the party. How very intriguing.
I received a similarly detailed reply from Siobhan McMahon this afternoon. In fact, it may be identical just glancing through both replies.
I consider myself as an average intelligent man, but for the life of me I have no idea what Labour are saying apart from muddle.
It’s like some sort of Monty Python sketch.
I have just read through the email from Siobhan McMahon and am thinking to myself. Haud on thats not what Johann Lamont told Brewer on the BBC!
“The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.”
Keech!
I have to say the more I think about it this plan was pure genius. There is just no way anything good for Labour can come from it and because as MPs and MSPs they need to be available to all constituents of whatever political hue, they can’t just ignore us all either.
After the SPT free advertising bonanza what a great week for Wings and the YES campaign more generally. BT are publicly imploding and have nowhere left to go.
Have you not mixed up ‘would’ and ‘could’, Stu?
Apologies if I’ve read it wrong.
Interesting that MacMahon chose to cut and paste Baker’s version. She’s another Labour dynastic politician, her dad being Michael MacMahon MSP, and she was a very public supporter of Lamont in the leadership election. You’d have thought she’d at least try to stick closer to the Lamont line.
Meanwhile Baker is trying to fill his boots at Westminster, as he’s angling to take over from Frank Doran in Aberdeen North 2015, so he probably doesn’t give a toss what he says regarding devolution.
It’ll be entertaining to see how many versions of the Labour policy we end up with.
Getting Labour to explain their policies is like asking a drunk to recite the seven times table backwards. Funny and tragic at the same time.
“Have you not mixed up ‘would’ and ‘could’, Stu?”
No. Johann absolutely clearly says that under her plan the Scottish Parliament CAN’T undercut the UK. Baker says it can if it wants to. There’s no possible way of misconstruing what either of them said.
It can’t just be Johann mangling her words as usual either, because she goes on to say totally unambiguously that the point of the plan is that there can’t be tax competition, and no race to the bottom. Yet if Scotland and the rUK can undercut each other on every tax band, that’s exactly what you’ve got.
This is dynamite, readers, and I’m not sure you’re all fully appreciating just how big it is.
Richard Baker was always the black Sheep of the Labour family. It takes a special kind of stupid to be the black Sheep in Labour. £500,000000 he said knife crime was costing the NHS in Scotland!?
I understand what you are saying Stu, but he is using the C word.
And the Band played, believe it if you like!
I do not!
“I understand what you are saying Stu, but he is using the C word.”
Jute! FFS! I know he is!
Let me try to spell it out.
Johann says undercutting WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE, and that preventing such undercutting is the entire point of “Devo Nano”.
Baker says undercutting WOULD BE COMPLETELY POSSIBLE. He’s just shot her down in flames.
Whether Labour would actually plan to undercut the rUK if elected isn’t the point here. The point is whether the Scottish Parliament would have the ABILITY to. Johann said it wouldn’t, Baker’s just said she was talking out of her hole.
I’m none the bloody wiser at this response, the only thing that frightens the living daylights out of me is the thought of Labour being in charge of any taxation.
Did GB as Chancellor not introduce something like 75 stealth taxes? Between that and JoLa’s trick with her sums I could never trust them, they are rotten and corrupt at their very core.
Meanwhile, lurking in the wings are the Westminster Labour MPs Gasworks Gang, led by Separashun Davidson, brandishing his bayonet. As far as they’re concerned, Holyrood will be getting NO further powers, and in fact could very likely lose some of those they already possess!
So much for all the crap we are now being fed by the MSM and BBC, that a NO vote will result in all 3 unionist parties agreeing to more devolution to Holyrood.
I think to be fair Johann Lamont did make it clear in those interviews (or as clear as she ever makes anything) that it would be possible to reduce the top rate of tax below the UK level, as long as exactly the same proportionate reduction is made across all bands. It’s only increases that don’t have to be done across all bands. It’s a bonkers policy, but that’s what she’s defending.
My reply from Iain Gray MSP for East Lothian. Seems there is a pattern developing here!
Dear ******
Thank you for your interest in Labour’s proposals to further extend and enhance devolution for Scotland within the United Kingdom.
The Labour Party is the Party of devolution. Our founder, Keir Hardie, promoted Home Rule in the early 1900s, we participated in the Constitutional Convention in the 1980s and in 1999 we delivered a Scottish Parliament. In 2012, we extended these powers further when we supported the Scotland Act. And in 2016, as a result of these changes, the biggest transfer of fiscal powers since the Act of Union will take place.
In spring 2012, Johann Lamont established a Devolution Commission to examine what could be done to strengthen devolution further. Following two years of deliberations and a yearlong public consultation, we published our proposals on 18th March. The final report of the Commission was endorsed unanimously by Scottish Labour Party Conference on 21st March.
Our starting principle is that we believe in a society in which resources are pooled and shared across the whole country, and in which those with the broadest shoulders and greatest resources contribute most to the support of those in need.
Our report is wide-ranging and includes a number of recommendations, including:
• Further devolution of income tax, discussed in more detail below.
• Devolution of housing benefit and attendance allowance, to align more closely the provision of benefits in an area closely related to devolved services.
• Devolution of the work programme to Scottish local authorities to better meet the needs of local labour markets.
The report of the commission is extensive and also includes proposals to increase the powers available to our island communities, to improve local democratic accountability and to establish better enforcement mechanisms for health and safety in Scotland, including the establishment of a Scottish Health and Safety executive.
On income tax, we believe that the changes made by the Scotland Act 2012 are significant, but there is scope to go further.
• Labour would therefore give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act.
• We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p up to 15p.
• This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament.
• The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.
• Equally, it would be possible to use the same power to increase tax, above the UK level, across all bands.
• Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax.
Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Labour’s policy is that fair taxation for the highest earners would be achieved by setting the additional rate at 50p.
Thank you for your interest in the final report of our devolution commission. If you require any more detail on our income tax policy, this can be found on page 148 – 151 of the report. If you wish to read the full report, it can be found on the Scottish Labour website at link to scottishlabour.org.uk
Yours sincerely
Iain Gray MSP
He says COULD, not WOULD, or am I blind?
It’s all you fault that I am puzzled, as I have studied your manual for cult members on the Could/Would reality. 🙂
“The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.”
Didn’t we all know that? Of course the “reductions” would only follow prior increases!
They may be being a bit devious (totally out of character) with the wording.
Barbara Watson says:
Barbara, I am not sure just how many stealth taxes Brown brought in, there was another one every few days, at least it felt like that.
Hence my name for him G.Brown = “The Pickpocket”!
As mentioned before, they are trying to offer us powers that deem to counter bad policies and bad decisions made by Westminster whilst not allowing us to make actual change. They want the Scottish government to look equally guilty. The recent proposed cap on welfare. Is a prime example of ridiculously bad decision making by all parties.
“I think to be fair Johann Lamont did make it clear in those interviews (or as clear as she ever makes anything) that it would be possible to reduce the top rate of tax below the UK level, as long as exactly the same proportionate reduction is made across all bands.”
Dear God, what part of “they can’t reduce it below what the level is set at a UK level” are people not grasping here?
As I’ve said above – you could attribute that simply to Johann’s masterful mangling of English if it stood alone. But she explicitly, utterly unambiguously says there can be NO TAX COMPETITION between Scotland and the rUK.
If you can cut every rate of tax below the rUK level (just so long as you cut them all at once), THAT IS TAX COMPETITION. That is tax competition TO THE MAX.
That is firing the starting gun on the “race to the bottom” that Labour spent ALL LAST WEEK saying they had to prevent at all costs.
I might pop a blood vessel shortly. The biggest story we’ve ever broken and NOBODY understands it?
“He says COULD, not WOULD, or am I blind?”
I’m seriously going to ban you in a minute. You’re not listening to a frigging word I’m saying.
No Johann Lamont definitely said you could not lower ther rate of tax. The two letters that are on here from Baker and McMahon seem to contradict what their leader said to Gordon Brewer??
She’s either stupid ( I know) but I think She defo wld have gone over the basic’s of knowing that they were advocating, not being able to lower the top rate. The Labour line is deliberately telling folk porkies.
Stu is right. I listened to Lamont’s interview and she made it absolutely clear that reducing income tax BELOW UK levels was not possible under any circumstance.
She said that it would lead to independence through the back door and result in a tax threshold race to the bottom.
Baker says the opposite; that cutting Scottish income tax BELOW UK is a possibility.
The explanations clearly contradict each other which is why I am predicting an “official” clarification” will be coming shortly which may include some back peddling.
After all, if Lamont insists that competitive tax levels is independence via the back door, why on earth would they offer it as an option?
I still expect a re-calibration in the next few days, some arses to be kicked & some back peddling.
“I still expect a re-calibration in the next few days, some arses to be kicked & some back peddling.”
Aye. But the only way they can do that is by answering the questions “definitively”, while also looking totally inept for creating the confusion in the first place, so it’s a win-win-win.
“below the UK level”
Sorry, yes someone is not telling the truth.
Why so surprised, Stu? It’s well understood that Labour say one thing in public and then another thing in public.
“No Johann Lamont definitely said you could not lower ther rate of tax. The two letters that are on here from Baker and McMahon seem to contradict what their leader said to Gordon Brewer??”
————————-
“Stu is right. I listened to Lamont’s interview and she made it absolutely clear that reducing income tax BELOW UK levels was not possible under any circumstance.
She said that it would lead to independence through the back door and result in a tax threshold race to the bottom.
Baker says the opposite; that cutting Scottish income tax BELOW UK is a possibility.”
————————-
Thank the Lord. I was starting to think I’d lost my mind.
P.S. I forgot to add that I am looking forward to Labour extracting themselves out of this policy statement since it appears they have made a pigs breakfast out of it.
Again.
Well, at least these are a step up from the snide nasty wee email I got from Tom Harris.
The Labour Party is rapidly self combusting and its a disaster for anyone who cares about social justice.
Suggest you publish all the answers, Rev. Shouldn’t take much space.
“Suggest you publish all the answers, Rev.”
Um, we have.
“Well, at least these are a step up from the snide nasty wee email I got from Tom Harris.”
Yeah, quite aside from anything else this makes him look a total dick. Although from his perspective, at least he just looks like a dick, not a total idiot.
I am positive that these emails from Labour were held back for a Friday afternoon hoping that they will be forgotten about come Monday.
Wrong again!
Deep intake of breath everyone, while one figures out how painful we can make this for Labour over the next few days & weeks.
After all, this is a political disaster for them in the making.
And we all made it happen.
DELIBERATELY ! LOL
Got it now.
I’m glad someone explained it properly. 🙂
Who the f*ck has composed the party line email that they are circulating for the drones to send out as ‘replies’ to specific questions?
I’m with you rev.
Situation crazy.
Lamont was wrong in her interview?
Why put out a response that contradicts your leader?
Incompetence / a revision / a challenge….
They’ve gone to the effort of drafting a standard reply to our emails. Fair enough, it makes life easier and means everyone in the party is consistent.
Except their leader in Scotland.
Hilarious!
Hold on. So could Scotland reduce all tax bands below UK levels, then using SPR increase top bands back to parity with UK? i.e. a tax cut specifically for lower earners?
“Hold on. So could Scotland reduce all tax bands below UK levels, then using SPR increase top bands back to parity with UK? i.e. a tax cut specifically for lower earners?”
Yes. Once again, blowing a hole the size of a battleship in Johann’s claims. (That’s basically what Question 4 asked.)
“Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.”
How does this square with being able to lower or raise all tax bands relating to tax bands in England, Wales and N.I.
Was this Gentleman really Former Shadow Finance Spokesman, oh wait I see, the clue is in “former”.
“Dear God, what part of “they can’t reduce it below what the level is set at a UK level” are people not grasping here?”
Yes, I know she said that, but she directly contradicted it elsewhere in the same interview. I presume the point being that she’s making it politically impossible to reduce the top rate of tax, because it’s already established that no party (except maybe the Tories) would ever reduce the basic rate of income tax below the UK level, which is what reducing the top rate would entail.
“Yes, I know she said that, but she directly contradicted it elsewhere in the same interview. I presume the point being that she’s making it politically impossible to reduce the top rate of tax, because it’s already established that no party (except maybe the Tories) would ever reduce the basic rate of income tax below the UK level, which is what reducing the top rate would entail.”
No. That’s utterly not what she said. She said “We can’t have this power at all, because it would risk tax competition, and tax competition would take a great big dump all over the entire concept of the Union, so we’ve made sure that Scotland can’t undercut UK rates.”
She doesn’t know who’s going to be in power next. But she’s spent months castigating the SNP over competing on Corp Tax, and she must know the SNP are probably going to win in 2016 no matter what, so she can’t have Labour hand them the power to cut Income Tax below UK levels either, or they might use it (for the exact same reasons they want to cut Corp Tax).
Go back and watch the interview. She couldn’t have been any more clear if she’d tattooed on on Brewer’s forehead. NO TAX COMPETITION BETWEEN SCOTLAND AND THE RUK. And now Richard Baker (and the others) say “Yeah, fuck it, let’s have ALL the tax competition”.
@ Croompenstein: that’s the key question! Because whoever it was behind the scenes has a different take on it than JoLa.
I thought that most folk actually seen the Brewer interview, She was absolutely sure on that point abt not being able to lower top rate tax, but was her usual self on everything else.
I wonder if Johann Lamont is secure in her position as leader?
Labour MSPs openly ignoring policies and her own specific televised statements.
Well lets be clear about this..uhu uhu, we took advice on this, and will make it clearer before 2016..uhu, that is unless it’s a false choice.uhu,uhu.
One thing is very clear- and our experts tell us this, we will not steal the eyes out of our head, unless we have an honest debate, following a honest conversation, of course, on both sides of the moon.
Any minute now, young Hothersal will be along to deploy that mind-warping, definition-stretching sophistry he`s made his own in a clear and detailed explanation of this apparent anomaly and WHOOSH, in an instant all the confusion will be gone.
No, really.
Just you wait.
So it seems awfully like nobody just mis-spoke: this is an official line sent out by the party. How very intriguing.
I would say it’s a fucking outrageous bare faced lie. These are educated people who know exactly what they’re doing.
In my opinion what we are witnessing people is our elected representatives knowingly lying to constituents. Morally repugnant and an affront to democracy.
First they vote to punish the poorest and most vulnerable in our society along with the tories & then they see fit to knowingly lie to us.
Labour are dead!
“In my opinion what we are witnessing people is our elected representatives knowingly lying to constituents. Morally repugnant and an affront to democracy.”
But the freaky thing is, they KNOW these questions come from Wings Over Scotland. They KNOW we’re going to be all over it with a fine-tooth comb. Surely not even Scottish Labour are so thick they didn’t think we’d notice?
@James Kelly: the point is that ScotLab are trying to push the SNP as Tartan Tories. And smear them as wanting tax cuts for the rich. Which, as we all know, is Westminster’s job.
So their plans as detailed by JoLa specifically ban undercutting rUK. But apparently don’t according to these emails.
Unlikely though it is, if Scotland remains in the Union & Labour win the next General Election & then get this part of Devo Nano approved through Commons AND Lords, then it means that Scotland could set preferential & lower tax rates for the poor while raising it for the rich.
But only when these three phases have been successfully passed.
Sure, it’s a political pigs breakfast for Labour, but none of this is likely to happen anyway.
Having said all that, I’m still looking forward to the shambolic limbo dancing, bullet dodging & two faced bullshit from Labour.
Stu, take a deep breath!
What is truly bizarre here is that we know that Labour are ALL OVER this site always checking up on what we nasty dangerous nefarious subversive cybernats are up to, so you would think that an organisation as sophisticated as Labour would have the good sense to come up with a stock response which at least doesn’t contradict what the mighty JoLo had said previously. Or would that require too much communication and planning?
Instead they jump straight into the trap and give us more ammunition to point out how contradictory their public statements are.
“So their plans as detailed by JoLa specifically ban undercutting rUK. But apparently don’t according to these emails.”
And according to Lamont herself in the televised interviews. I don’t think there’s any point in pretending she didn’t admit it. In fact, that admission was part of what contributed to it being such a car crash.
I know it’s a bit Zen, and hard to get your head around – but if two Labour people say absolutely opposite things, both are lying.
JolA–nonsense on stilettos.
That’s good news from Richard Baker.Now,if we could just get them to agree that the Scottish government should set and collect all other taxes and revenues including oil,whisky and VAT,and decide how to spend them,we might be able to find some common ground.
Of course,Trident will have to go.And the House of Lords.
The key bit would appear to be on p.151, para 361, of the document on their website:
‘The Scotland Act enables the Scottish Parliament to increase or decrease income tax rates in Scotland. In addition to extending this power, we will also introduce new Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax, so that the Scottish Parliament can increase the rates of tax in the
higher and additional bands.’
So all bands can be raised and lowered together, or the top bands can be raised – but not lowered. So Scotland is structurally forbidden from having a lower top rate than the UK, unless all rates are lower. As has been said by others, it’s a way of restricting tax varying powers so as to make them – like now – too blunt or crude to be much use.
In which case, Baker and co are right, and Lamont is – well, confused. Unless I’m confused. Which, since it’s Friday evening, I might be.
On a slightly different note….
“Our starting principle is that we believe in a society in which resources are pooled and shared across the whole country”
This is obviously deliberate to reinforce in peoples minds the ‘country’ being the UK rather than Scotland.
My pet hate.
Scotland is a country.
UK is NOT a country.
Ends…..
See the Rev’s response. And link to wingsoverscotland.com as well.
Stu, take a deep breath!
What is truly bizarre here is that we know that Labour are ALL OVER this site always checking up on what we nasty dangerous nefarious subversive cybernats are up to, so you would think that an organisation as sophisticated as Labour would have the good sense to come up with a stock response which at least doesn’t contradict what the mighty JoLo had said previously. Or would that require too much communication and planning?
I think you give them too much credit, these people really are that stupid. As proved many times.
Just everyone can get their head’s round what Lamont did and didn’t say here are links to three videos from Labour’s conference weekend.
To be fair this first video is from Newsnight Scotland a few nights before the start of the conference.
link to tinyurl.com
This video is of her interview with Brian Taylor on the Saturday of Labour’s conference.
link to tinyurl.com
This third video is of her interview on Politics Scotland on the Sunday.
link to tinyurl.com
Hopefully there is something in amongst these videos that can smooth some of the rough waters around what she did or didn’t say. 😛
Sorry missed out the apostrophiies. bad bobby!
“Go back and watch the interview.”
I’ve watched it twice already, and that’s more than enough! She was pressed elsewhere in the interview, and admitted that the top rate of tax could be reduced, but only if all the other bands were reduced at the same time. She evidently regarded that as a relatively unimportant detail (presumably because it would make it politically impossible to reduce the top rate), hence the apparent contradiction if you take all her comments absolutely literally.
I think the nature of the proposals are clear enough. The real problem is that they’re bonkers.
Baker is special – he is the author of the 2011 knife-carrying mandatory arrest Labour policy that was based on gibberish financial figures he read in a newspaper somewhere and that were complete nonsense. Man’s a typical Labourite thicko – not a lone there n=in that party.
Wait, wasn’t the whole point of Johann Lamont’s statement about not being able to lower taxes below UK levels that tax competition = independence by the backdoor? How are they going to square that? Also, is it just me or is Johann Lamont being hung out to dry here? Since the official party line now seems to be diametrically opposed to what she said they’re making her look utterly incompetent and unable to even grasp her own party’s policies.
Are they just by-passing her completely now? Are they going to replace her as “leader in Scotland”? I can’t see how they can back pedal from “no tax competition” to “tax competition’s fine” without making her look too incompetent to remain in her position.
But the freaky thing is, they KNOW these questions come from Wings Over Scotland. They KNOW we’re going to be all over it with a fine-tooth comb. Surely not even Scottish Labour are so thick they didn’t think we’d notice?
Or maybe they just want rid of Lamont?
Make her look like a tool in public then sit back for the inevitable resignation?
Replace her with someone who can be a bit more shouty come the next Scotland Tonight debate?
Or perhaps they really are that monumentally stupid?
Got same stock response from Siobhan McMahon
Dear Mr *****
Thank you for your interest in Labour’s proposals to further extend and enhance devolution for Scotland within the United Kingdom.
As you may be aware, in spring 2012, Johann Lamont established a Devolution Commission to examine what could be done to strengthen devolution further. Following two years of deliberations and a year-long public consultation, our proposals were published on 18th March.
With regard to income tax, we believe that the changes made by the Scotland Act 2012 are significant, but there is scope to go further.
• Labour would therefore give the Scottish Parliament the power to raise around £2 billion more in revenues beyond the recent Scotland Act.
• We will do this by widening the variation in income tax in the Scotland Act by half from 10p up to 15p.
• This will mean that three-quarters of basic rate income tax in Scotland will be under the control of the Scottish Parliament.
• The Scottish Parliament could, using the powers of the Scotland Act 2012, and our extension to their scope, choose to lower income tax, below the UK level, across all income tax bands.
• Equally, it would be possible to use the same power to increase tax, above the UK level, across all bands.
• Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax.
Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
Labour’s policy is that fair taxation for the highest earners would be achieved by setting the additional rate at 50p.
Thank you for your interest in the final report of our devolution commission. If you require any more detail on our income tax policy, this can be found on page 148 – 151 of the report. If you wish to read the full report, it can be found on the Scottish Labour website at link to scottishlabour.org.uk
Yours sincerely
Siobhan McMahon MSP
Member of the Scottish Parliament for Central Scotland
@Hotrod Cadets
My understanding is that under their proposal the differential between bands needs to be maintained so it would be “No” to your scenario – could be wrong though maybe we should discuss before Thursday – 😉
Looks like your right Kirsty, JoLa presumably didn’t proof read this standard reply so who composed it and on whose authority?
Well i think its just totally unacfuckinceptable that these individuals are politicians representing people. Its staggering.
There appears to be hesitation and confusion in the media about reporting Labour. Wacky Jackie generally gets only dismissive comment following yestewrday’s slap down and Iain Gray is saying a lot again but nobdy is paying attention. One gets the feeling that all confidence in Joahann Lamont has gone but the alternatives look no better.
It would seem Johann Lamont either did not understand her own proposals or was unable to explain them to Gordon Brewer.
I wonder if Labour MSPs simply got fed up waiting for Johann Lamont to correct her misstatement (or they could not get her to understand the issue) and wanted to get this sorted?
Is that the OneNation thing over now? That didn’t last long.
It’s straight out of The Thick of It. I would do a transcript of the latest episode, but there would be too much swearing for this site…
But in true Tucker fashion, we will end up with Lamont not saying what she didn’t say and everyone agreeing that she didn’t say it, while the new line is spun to all Wings Readers that what the Devolution Proposals actually say is very different from what you think they said, and that it was your fault for not understanding that.
I got the exact same reply from Iain Gray, Constituency MSP, East Lothian.
It began with a nod to Keir Hardy – they would not recognise any of Keir Hardy’s principles if they were sitting on their bottom lips.
@Rev –
‘But the freaky thing is, they KNOW these questions come from Wings Over Scotland. They KNOW we’re going to be all over it with a fine-tooth comb. Surely not even Scottish Labour are so thick they didn’t think we’d notice?’
Curiouser and curiouser…
This gives plausible deniability to those inside SLab who’ve known for months that Lamont is toast, but didn’t dare raise their voices at Perth – they can claim they were instructed to respond to constituents using this ‘early unproofed draft’ (or somesuch shite) which, by some unfortunate oversight, Lamont hadn’t yet approved.
This could be the night of the long knives for JoLa – best start ticking-off all those who’ve sent out this thing, and see if there are any obvious connections between them.
Someone inside SLab is at it big-time.
Sorry that should have been Hardie , not Hardy.
Guys, remember the Napoleon quote. Johann needs our support! Central office may well be lining her up for the chop. She is as dispensable to Labour as Alistair Darling is to the Tories. Will it be the nasty Cybernats shown to be wielding the blade? Even if it turns out to be a bayonet? Lee Harvey Oswald ring any bells?
Darlings – seeing as how ‘labour’ are all over this site and avidly reading our posts (and being idiotic) perhaps we should recommend a decent sparring partner – after all (and this is serious) a proper debate would be of benefit to all.
Re getting rid of JoLa – Jenny Marra’s name is cropping up a lot.
She would be much more professional and articulate – let’s face a baby would also.
But she is still UKOK through and through.
O/T Rev have you seen this
link to bbc.co.uk
You would need more than a spare cable if you had this one at home and it got out
Start listening at 8 min 40 secs during this interview with Lamont & Brewer on Newsnight Scotland.
link to youtube.com
and at 10 mins 1 secs she says quite clearly …
“We don’t want tax competition …”
“Labour’s proposals for further tax powers are designed to enhance fiscal accountability and flexibility at a Scottish level, while preventing destructive income tax competition between Scotland and the rest of the UK.”
Both Johann Lamont and Richard Baker MSP say this, while both totally contradicting each other on the excat mechanism to do it.
At least Johann’s (apparently ill informed) reasoning was consistent with the objective.
@James Davidson
I think that as far as the current labour party is concerned their policies are defined by Hardy – and his pal Laurel.
S’no fair all you folks getting replies from your favourite Labour M.P. or M.S.P. and here’s me still waiting. It’s no fair I tell you. It’s no just my Labour M.S.P. either SPT haven’t replied to me yet either whatever is going on, is there something about us in South of Scotland that makes folks no want to write to us or something? 🙂
We don’t bite…much.
We don’t bark…much.
We don’t snarl…much.
If we don’t start getting answers soon though then we may very well start biting, barking and snarling. 😛
Perhaps it’s my Gaelic e-mail address that’s putting them of, YES that’s it it’s my e-mail address. Phew, just for a wee while there I thought it was something serious like them not having any answers. 🙂
I think we should all email Labour HQ with messages of support for Ms Lamont.
Shove on has forgotten to mention pooling and resourcing etc.
Is she in trouble?
There must be a template for this response.
I’ve gone back and read the summary of the Labour report.
As far as I can tell this is their policy:
The Scotland Act 2012 already gives Scotland the ability to undercut the rest of the UK. For Scottish taxpayers, the UK tax rates will be 10p lower than in the UK for all bands. Scotland could choose to keep the tax paid by Scottish citizens unmodified by imposing a 10p tax of its own. Or, it could choose to have a lower tax rate by imposing a new tax of less than 10p, or a higher one by having a new tax of _more_ than 10p.
With the powers of the Scotland Act alone, Scotland can already undercut rest of the UK (up to 10p lower). But all of the tax bands must be raised or lowered at the same time. If the Scottish Government lowers the 20% rate to 15%, they must also lower the 40% rate to 35%. If they increase the 20% rate to 30%, they must also increase the 40% rate to 50%.
This appears to be what Mr. Baker is referring to, rather than anything in the Labour report.
The Labour report proposes an additional power they call ‘Scottish Progressive Rates’, which means Scotland could increase the higher (40%) and additional (45%) rates independently of the powers provided by the Scotland Act.
I guess it is this new power that Ms. Lamont was talking about in the Brewer interview.
So consider the following scenario under their proposals:
The Scotland Act comes into force, and the Scottish tax rates are cut from 20%, 40%, 45% by 10p to 10%, 30%, 35%.
The Scottish Government’s budget is presumably cut proportionally. Scotland could get this revenue back and choose to impose a 10p tax, bringing the rates back to 20%/40%/45%.
But those nasty Tories in London aren’t taxing people enough for Labour’s liking, so Scotland additionally applies a ‘Scottish Progressive Rate’ to the higher and additional bands. Let’s say 10p on each, so Scottish taxpayers now pay 20%/50%/55%.
However I am still unclear about the following scenario:
Scotland Act base tax rates start off at 10%/30%/35% (as above).
But Scotland decides it is better off with lower taxes, so the Scottish tax rate is set at only 5p. Scottish taxpayers pay 15%/35%/40%.
In this situation, would the Scottish Government be forced – as the Brewer interview suggested – to implement additional taxes (using Labour’s new ‘Scottish Progressive Rates’ mechanism) to push the higher bands back up to match the UK? Making the tax rates 15%/40%/45%? If that is the case the Labour proposals actually reduce the freedom of the Scottish Government to set tax rates.
If not – and Mr. Baker seems to think not – you’re back at having tax competition in the higher rates, which Johann specifically ruled out.
In any case the justification about ‘tax competition’ – they specifically ruled out corporation tax and air passenger duty due to this concern, remember – looks like very wooly thinking, given that the devolution commision knew from the start that the Scotland Act already allows Scotland to compete on tax with the rest of the UK. Maybe Labour can’t imagine that Scotland would ever lower taxes?
Unless of course the purpose of the Labour ‘powers’ is actually to undermine the flexiblity provided by the Scotland Act by forcing Scotland to always have higher taxes than the UK in all circumstances.
They also still haven’t told us how they will deliver any of this, given that they now look unlikely to win the 2015 election.
Sorry for the massive comment – I find myself unable to explain it in simpler terms!
Rev.
Don’t you mean implosion ?
“Don’t you mean implosion?”
I thought about it, and no. “Devo Nano” looked like no kind of power at all. Now it’s gotten a whole lot bigger. That’s an EXplosion…
Labour politicians may not struggle with their conscience but I’m sure Labour supporters struggle to make sense of it all;
link to whitefeatherclub.wordpress.com
Weren’t Labour’s proposals meant to bring clarity to the referendum and a ‘No’ vote in particular?
No wonder they can’t win anything.
Checking the comments and seeing that replies are out there I hurriedly rushed to my email account. Perhaps a message from Anus Sarwar? Labour tax enlightenment in electronic form? Sadly, nope…sniff “you’ve lost that loving feeling, oh that loving feeling…”
Perhaps Johann’s already been given the boot but whoever was meant to tell her just forgot.
Oh JoLa…you should never have gone dann sarf for the planting of Mr Benn and left JaBa. It was always going to end in tears.
I’ve just replied to Siobhan McMahon and cc’ed jola to ask for clarification on who is telling the truth and if they actual.y understand what they are talking about, I’ll await the reply ……..
SLab please don’t punt JoLa she is the gift that keeps on giving she is as important to Yes as the FM(ok slight exaggeration)but we must save JoLa
Doesn’t she look tired…?
When putsch comes to shove, who in SLab could possibly have devised such dastardly doings when JoLa’s away? Have these people no sense of loyalty?
‘Et tu, Jaba?’
Baker’s answer is a lot more coherent that Johann’s rather obscure performance. Could it be that Johann doesn’t understand what the proposals are?
On the other hand although Baker’s answer would make a lot more sense I’m not sure that the Red Paper is meant to make sense.
Conan the Librarian – I loved the ending of the Doctor Who episode. Especially the Belgrano reference.
*that. Stupid ‘phone.
If they’d only kept up to speed with the ongoings on Wings they’d know what each other was talking about.
Imagine the next Slab meeting on Monday ” right who’s been monitoring Wings this weekend and what have we said ? ”
New song for our chart list ” Lying without Wings “
Maybe Labour’s Devo proposals are a bit like horoscopes?
A collection of words about the future that mean different things to different people and don’t necessarily reflect reality.
Aye, see ya!
Bye!
Missing ye already!
Choory-oh!
Bye.
Okay.
Gonny just go if ye’re gaun hen?
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Aw bless, she looks that proud of them all too…
link to heraldscotland.com
Could we be witnessing the start of Scottish Labour’s Nacht der langen Messer.
@Ian Brotherhood – Is that Flipper or Douglas Fraser at the other end of the table?
Surely the huge issue here is that if there can be tax competition (via Income Tax) between Scotland and the UK, that would constitute a race to the bottom, using Labours excuse not to devolve Corporation Tax.
The other huge issue (in my opinion) is that Labour have been found out trying to sell a shambles that no Scottish Government would use. Instead of admitting such, they may be changing it. Just a misunderstanding I can hear them say. Or they’re (Baker etc) are lying. Either way taxi for JoLa?
Ian, come on, at least give us a wee bit of warning. I could have been eating my tea there.
Snot fair time up here in chilly Aberdeen. I emailed Councillor Young twice now and no reply at all. The second was just the tax up and/or down UK/Scotland conundrum but nothing. Willie’s a Labour devo commissioner so he should have everything at his finger tips. Neither this bloke Baker nor Siobhan McMahon are on it but they’ve at least answered. Tis even weirder considering all that Lamont stuff about “conversations with the Scottish people” waffle.
If I might borrow from Ms Lamont for a moment I am astonished.
Surely not even the MSM can ignore a party leader either being blatantly undermined by her MSP/MPs or having got the launch of her devo policy so badly wrong. You would think that in the middle of an independence referendum the ONE policy you would ensure was clearly and professionally presented by the whole party would be your anti-indy counter proposal. Does anyone in Scottish Labour actually speak to each other? In any other walk of life a cock up of this magnitude would result in a P45. It beggars belief.
Nothing from Margaret Curran. I’m feeling left out. 🙁
“Uncharitably, one of them is lying. Or charitably, Labour themselves don’t have a clue what their actual policy is, after spending two years coming up with it”
sorry Rev, you are being far to charitable
richard baker is a fukcin worm of the highest order. I know, i met him at abdn uni
they know exactly what they are saying. it is just the compliant MSM who let them away with murder, dont let him away with it, re run yer last post and get everyone to email these charlatans again
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
28 March, 2014 at 7:38 pm“Don’t you mean implosion?”
I thought about it, and no. “Devo Nano” looked like no kind of power at all. Now it’s gotten a whole lot bigger. That’s an EXplosion…
naw, its devo hee haw, the dunkeys chice,
I got the impression Johann Lamont hadn’t actually read the report,so those written answers are probably more reliable.
The No campaign seems to be crumbling. A bit of infighting and leakage …
link to theguardian.com
@ Edmund:
Thanks for that: I had almost completed a very similar post coming to much the same conclusion as you (and also at great length :))
There is one remaining confusion and I do not think it possible to resolve it yet
In the letter received they say
Alternatively, if the Scottish Parliament wished to exercise greater flexibility between bands, Labour’s proposals mean that it would be empowered to do so by applying Scottish Progressive Rates of Income Tax to increase either the higher or additional rates of tax. (my bolding)
In the devolution document they say
. In addition to extending this power, we will also introduce new Scottish Progressive Rates of Income
Tax, so that the Scottish Parliament can increase the rates of tax in the higher and additional bands. For the first time, the Scottish Parliament will be able to alter both the level of tax and the progressivity of the tax
system
The latter does not actually say that a Scottish government could do both at the same time but it implies it: “alternatively” seems to rule it out.
The Scotland Act specifically states the the SG can only set one Scottish Rate, and so I have to presume that the new “Scottish progressive rate”, which allows an increase in the top rates, counts as a Scottish Rate for this purpose. In which case it is either/or.
I see no reason why anyone would accept this arrangement because it essentially enshrines labour party policy in UK law, for Scotland alone: and I don’t see why the tories and lib dems would go along with that if the union is retained. Nor do I see how tax competition is avoided through this measure. They do not seem to me to be trying to do what they say they are trying to do.
@Murray McCallum – Wow “Of course there would be a currency union,” the minister told the Guardian in remarks that will serve as a major boost to the Scottish first minister, Alex Salmond, who accused the UK’s three main political parties of “bluff, bluster and bullying” after they all rejected a currency union
I wonder who ‘the minister’ is..surely not Beaker!
Here is some food for thought for newbies, and old timers alike:
link to youtu.be
Labour have probably given all their MPs and MSPs a standard response to send to us nasty cybernats. Shame they forgot to coordinate it with Johann Lamont’s interview. Which incidentally made everyone I showed it to laugh hysterically in disbelief.
@Croompenstein –
Here’s the original Herald article, with a name-check. It’s that Hugh Henry dude – the man with no surname.
link to heraldscotland.com
Croompenstein
“A currency union will eventually be agreed between an independent Scotland and the remainder of the UK to ensure fiscal and economic stability on both sides of the border …”
Of course, the “stability” part means the rUK as even the BBC, and Robert Peston in particular, must be starting to worry about their “broad shoulders”.
link to bbc.co.uk
The Guardian story about the Government minster that has said of course some sort of deal on a currency union would take place is remarkable for frankness. There is all sorts of weird stuff going on at the moment.
We live in interesting times.
I thought we were done with pointless YouTube videos of boy bands?
They add nothing to our insight, understanding or knowledge.
The Labour party in Scotland can’t even lie consistently. It’s not as though they haven’t had time to co-ordinate this. Confused? Us and them. I am increasingly glad we have, at long last, a government for Scotland worthy of it’s name.
O/T (ish)
Is anyone in the No camp speaking to each other? Apparently we’re now getting a currency union or not depending on who you speak to. One wonders if the recent crisis talks was just various no types sitting a room making random animal noises. They appear even less co-ordinated than they did before
link to theguardian.com
If I get this right, it seems to me that the noose is finally being tightened around JoLa by North Labour Central Committee. Since being elected as leader “of all the Scots’ [Labour variety] she has had a (car)crash course in “debating” and “interview technique” whilst being force-fed contradictory and easily rebuffed “information” and “key messages”. Her FMQ performances being orchestrated noises-off by the puppeteers.
I am now of the view that all of this has been to set her up as the patsy for the real leader in waiting. Whatever the result in September, no one wanted to be responsible for the main campaign in Scotland and so someone had to carry the can. Her “performances” have been so poor that she can only have been led a merry dance by her own side. How very Labour.
Now that YES seems more than likely, the background boys are making their move and have set JoLa up for the fall. Six months to go is enough time for the new leader to be excused “losing”. The new Leader (elected after the May Euro Elections) will have plausible deniability “Well I did my best given the poor hand I got” or be the saviour “I managed to bring round the debacle of the previous leader and held on to the UK!”
Who has been most quiet in the last few months, or when they have been intervened it’s been at a less strident level? Who would be a refreshing change of generation? I agree with Liz, Jenny Mara comes immediately to my mind. (Perhaps her “minders” think as a new girl she is also more malleable?)
I am now beginning to feel a little bit sorry for JoLa. Probably a genuine “old-style” Labour person (but I also mean the old style of control and management) who has been unable to deal with the “fast pace” of politics today. Hence her weekly absences between FMQs when she was no doubt being primed for another fall by her ("Tractor" - Ed)ous “Comrades”.
Good old Scottish Labour. They’ll do anything, and anybody to hang onto their wee fiefs.
Of course I could have this all wrong.
@G H Graham
Come on GH – its a Friday night, things are looking up and its no a library 🙂
@Ian – I wonder if Kezia has been trolled by a wicked cabernat she has that same glaikit expression she had in that photo in the Heil.
@Tony Little – The ("Tractor" - Ed) is in that photo Ian posted, it’s like a murder mystery I think it wiz JaBa with the candlestick in the bog
Murray McCallum says: Maybe Labour’s Devo proposals are a bit like horoscopes? A collection of words about the future that mean different things to different people and don’t necessarily reflect reality.
I know exactly what you are saying. I read my horoscope a few years ago (in Shavers’ Weekly) and all it said was “Unlucky article of clothing: underpants. Unlucky colour: brown.” I mean that’s ridiculous, what’s unlucky about brown underpants?
GH Graham… i hope you were not referring to my last post. Art and music absolutely and completely reflects the reality we live in… it always has done (from the time of cave paintings)… and always will do (modern music).
The most recent artistic input has been highly praised for its use of the Scots language…
link to youtu.be
link to theguardian.com Not even going to read this. Woohoo! Labour’s 2 year quest for no devo ends with sterling zone go ahead. What a great week for Scotland:D
As I suggested some days ago, Lamont has to be on her last chance. Indeed, these radical diversions from her script may well be evidence she’s already being marginalised.
Guardian article, ” rUK would want to keep trident at Faslane, Scotland wants to keep the pound, you can see a deal could be done ”
They think they hold all the cards, news is they do not!
G H Graham
Perhaps not always but they do add to our sense of fun and community. I’m saying this as a relatively new reader here; I enjoy the fact that people on here have a laugh with each other – it makes me feel comfortable and I think it’s why Wings does so well in comparison to other independence sites. In fact, if anything, I find the comments (some of them extremely rude) complaining about people’s language, links, intelligence, spelling and grammar a bit upsetting and off-putting. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but, as a newbie, it’s one of the things that attracts me to this site.
Croompenstein
You’re right; I wonder who was behind this email. I tried looking up to see who was in charge of communications but I couldn’t find anyone. Surely, it must have had the blessing of someone high up? Either that or it’s the mother of all typos!
@MajorB –
‘Shavers’ Weekly?’
Good grief. I didn’t realise magazines of that sort did horoscopes…you learn something new every day!
@ Alba4Eva, yes but every time I see it I am extremely attracted to Margaret Thatcher AND Flipper Darling, probably more Darling.
link to theguardian.com
dear rev stu…….any chance of a caption competion for this photo?
Heedtracker… stop calling me Darling.
Well done Stu, this is a big WOW of a story. Do we have warring factions within Scottish Labour? Does this prove it? I think so as it seems there is two distinct lines of thinking within Labour in Scotland, one with Johann Lamont and one without. Personally I think Lamont will be increasingly finding herself out in the cold of Scottish politics, regardless of the referendum result she is not going to be Labour leader in Scotland in 2015.
Hopefully this story will get circulated.
Welcome to the REAL world government minister at the heart of the pro-union campaign.
Now if you’d be so kind as to run along now and tell Messers Osborne, Alexander and Balls to pick their toys up and put them back into their prams then perhaps we can move forward in the referendum debate, thank you ever so much. 😛
@ Alba4Eva, No! Darling.
@Croompenstein –
Kezia Dugdale? I actually find her attractive. It’s not just her looks – to me, any woman devoted enough to take their baby into work (especially in the goldfish bowl which is Holyrood, having to face those vicious Nats every day) has to have a lot going for them.
Three cheers for Kezia!
link to i.ytimg.com
Enjoy.
link to soundcloud.com
Enjoy.
link to soundcloud.com
Tony Little; DCanmore
I totally agree; I think she’s being set up as the patsy. Didn’t a Labour MP recently say that Labour in Scotland was split from top to bottom? This would appear to be the proof but I doubt the media will run it.
I did notice Dcanmore… It looks to me like J-lo’s big red jaikit is on ra proverbial shoogly peg.
Who was it that famously said “Bring it on”? …what’s Jackie Bailies piece de resistance gonna be?
We wait with baited breath. 🙂
Ref Jola, ever since the SNP took power Slab as been deteriorating bit by bit. Consumed by hatred for their defeats, they have only warped tunnel vision.
Heads of the party in Scotland have been rolling ever since, no matter who they choose, they are eventually deemed incapable.
This causes mistakes, following Tory policies was their worst one, but one of many. They are falling into meltdown, with only themselves to blame.
I hope after a YES vote, a really NEW, real, Scottish Labour emerges, and one without the old dead weights who would only pull them back.
I do not love Labour anymore, like very many others, but they are needed in a democratic Scotland to give democratic balance.
While acknowledging that, I will still vote SNP, without them, we would have had no chance.
Ok heedtracker… gie us a kiss…
link to i3.dailyrecord.co.uk
To be quite honest. After reading what now looks like some sort of ‘let’s get something out there because the ‘no’ campaign is collapsing on all fronts’, we now have Labour saying the first thing that might appease the masses and try to get the Reverend off their backs.
Then we have the Libs. First we have Clegg with ‘Oh! Nasty Nats. Don’t trust them. They’re the same as that nasty UKIP.’ Basically, Clegg is still upset that he had his backside handed to him in front of the nation. If he can’t beat a guy who didn’t last 5 minutes in a discussion with Edinburgh locals over some UKIP policies, then he’s no chance with the Scottish electorate …especially as he’s holding hands with David and George, who are just about as toxic to Scotland as Maggie was.
Then we have Wee Willie discussing the bedroom tax with, ‘I think it should just go, and it should go quickly. The only problem with that statement is the ‘think’ word …basically, he’s not really sure, or in other words, I want to see it go, but I don’t want to upset my London masters …especially the one on the podium right now saying that the SNP are just as bad as UKIP.
Overall …Labour, Liberals …they don’t have a clue. They are all pretending though that these wee soundbites imply that great change is coming, but of course, they don’t really have a clue …nor will any of these noises of optimism (if it is even that) will ever see the light of day!
@Alba4Eva, oh god. they say you should think about something non hot to stop you you know but that makes me to pull my own eyes out.
@schrodingers cat –
Why does Wee Wullie look so happy?
Here’s the man himself, predicting that he’d get Nick Clegg ‘up again’, and – would you adam-an’-eve it? He did!
Three cheers for Willie Rennie!
especially as he’s holding hands with David and George, who are just about as toxic to Scotland as Maggie was.
Don’t forget Ed and Ed JLT, they are also in the same bed as Dave and George. The Rainbow party all for one and, erm, one for oneself! 😛
I wonder if it will all happen this week-end.
Labour do that, you know.It gives them time to distance themselves a bit and sort out what the fuck is happening.
Remember, this is not just a Slab clusterfuck, there are No dimensions, all the ramifications for Miliband and when the LibDems are going to be put to sleep.
Anyone checked the alignment of the stars?
Alba4Eva says:
Well you should have attached a health warning!!
It had the same effect on me as Linda Blair from the Exorcist
jumping out the screen. Nearly fell off my chair LOL!
This could be the night of the long knives for JoLa…
– Ian Brotherhood, given this is Scottish Labour it’ll be more like night of the rubber knives.
Scottish Labour are a such a bunch of complete and utter incompetents I doubt they could even organise a coup against someone as easy to bump off as Johann, who needs to get put out of her political misery asap for everyone concerned.
This Devo Nano tax policy is about the only policy I can come up with which the Labour Party, in general, haven’t stolen off someone else, hence the reason they’re all over the place with it.
Even its Housing Benefit policy is just a straightforward steal from the nationwide grassroots anti-bedroom tax campaign which makes Labour’s support for the utterly ludicrous IDS pipe-dream of Universal Credit even more ludicrous.
I can feel it in my waters.
Bring it on.
Sorry heedtracker. LOL. 🙂
And Les. 😉
@Kirsty
Whether she is being set up or not she doesn’t have to make it so easy: she could do something radical like reading the report before she goes on the telly.
It is of her own making because she is either lazy or stupid or both
Arbroath mate,
There’s a whole bucket load of these ‘rogues’ we could name!
But, I’m only going with whoever has spoken today.
All very interesting! It would be sad to see Jola go, but if we are talking replacements, then I’m dying for Margreet to have a shot at the hot seat. Just her screeching at the nation will send the ‘Yes’ vote up!
Point taken JLT. 🙂
If you’re looking for a JoLa replacement might we be on the verge of seeing the come back kid return to *ahem* front line Labour politics?
I am referring of course to the one the only Beny Wendy ‘bring it on’ Alexander. Now there is a ‘leader’ to be feared!:P
i think scottish labour are just so useless, dont think its a plot to get rid of poison ivy, most of them are not up to the job.
Alba4Eva,
It’s OK, Ian will appreciate it.
Fetching? Attractive?
C’mon Ian, we need a verdict!
Fiona
Agreed!
@Joe Kane –
Aye, agreed.
But they could use this stushie as the excuse they need to jettison Johann. Even if it hadn’t occured to them before reading this thread, they now have the perfect opportunity to lob the hapless Jola overboard.
Thereafter?
As you and others have suggested, there needn’t necessarily be any ‘after’ in place because they clearly haven’t a clue what they’re doing – they’re making it up as they go along, or, to use a more appropriate expression, ‘winging it’.
In any event, they’re fucked – and they know we know that they know etc etc.
Tomorrow morning’s Radio Scotland coverage should be interesting. It should be, but…
o/t currency union news
link to archive.is
Front Page News Flash
Big stooshie everywhere after “government minister” announces …
…. “There will be a currency union.”
“Alastair and Andrew are running the show. We just did what we were told to do,” said one Treasury spokesperson.
Do I get the feeling unionist fabrications and unity are unravelling?
You bet I do!
Even if it hadn’t occured to them before reading this thread,…
– I love it Ian B.
Scottish Labour reduced to stealing their ideas off WOS and its merry band of commenteers!
I can just see that very nice Mr Fraser now on (dis)Reporting Scotland. Just before he has a seizure whilst reading his script about this news of currency union he’ll be heard to blurt out “those nasty Nats have been found out bribing a Whitehall spokesperson to speak unholy untruths!” 😛
Cearc… im starting to get worried turning up to the Counting House now. The Glenfiddich’s been giving me too much confidence on here tonight obviously… i may well pay later. 🙂
@cearc –
Apologies, friend, but I cannot adjudicate on the matter in question as I did not have time to ‘appreciate’ the image fully.
I have saved it to a (floppy) disc and will return to it at a later date, as and when I have completed my new article for ‘Shavers’ Weekly’.
Ha ha ha ha ha …it keeps getting better today!
Now there is a whisper of currency union. (can hear the klaxon Red Alert! Red Alert! Better Together collapsing on all fronts! …Red Alert! Red Alert!
First JoLa has someone breaking ranks in Labour. Now we have someone breaking ranks in the coalition.
Priceless!
I have to stop coming back here every 5 minutes! I’m supposed to be studying at this very moment! I’ll never pass this History Degree!
@ JLT
You’re helping make history!
“I thought about it, and no. “Devo Nano” looked like no kind of power at all. Now it’s gotten a whole lot bigger. That’s an EXplosion…”
I see maybe confusion is more appropriate to what may follow on now.
‘On Friday Nick Clegg accused Alex Salmond of trying to make voters think “the world is flat and down is up” by claiming the UK would agree to a currency union with an independent Scotland.’
Bloody hell! I better not walk up the Pentlands tomorrow. I might fall off the edge, and hit the sky!
I have to stop coming back here every 5 minutes! I’m supposed to be studying at this very moment! I’ll never pass this History Degree!
Surely this can count can’t it, after this is history in the making. This is the Labour party in Scotland going through its final death throes. Just think in years to come you’ll be able to accurately discuss Scotland’s historical political high/low points with future generations of History intellectuals with first hand experience. 😛
HOLD UP A SEC
Independent Scotland ‘may keep pound’
link to theguardian.com
Unnamed source?? Tactical leak more like. Christ, they must be getting really desperate.
Oh…. silly me, old news.
Okay, so I just got home and hadn’t read 150 comments!
Apologies – I’m getting the humble pie out of the fridge….
“The minister, who would play a central role in the negotiations over the break-up of the UK if there were a yes vote”
That’s a deliberate leak. They’ll deny the hell out of it of course.
NO campaign is imploding. We are to get a currency union.
Have you noticed how Labour drop bombshells on a Friday night?…just sayin.
@msean
Yep just been reading the Guardian and Beeb pieces. Looks to me like a bit more negotiation by press. No such animal as an unsanctioned, unnamed disclosure at ministerial level. This is no slip of the tongue or casual chat with the press.
Plan A fell flat on its arse, the FM didn’t budge position by an inch on currency. Time for plan B and a shift in negotiations. 🙂
Surely not? That’s their core argument. If they step away from that now, it’s as good as handing Alec the keys to Westminster’s front door.
No, it can’t be right. It doesn’t play to a devo max win for them, it just strengthens the case for independence. Something up here… more reading and thinking required.
I’m thinking that the Rainbow party are slowly beginning to realise that within 2 years they are going to have to find somewhere else to park up their nukes. The realisation is not making them too happy either, as they keep telling us they have no where to put them.
If they have to remove their “toys” from Faslane and they have no where else to put them I guess that will mean rUK becomes another NON Nuclear country. Dave, Nick and Ed don’t like this idea one little bit, but hey ho…TOUGH. The other reason they don’t like it is because without their nuke “toys” rUK will no longer have a seat at the top table. Boo Hoo! 🙂
The minister, who would play a central role in the negotiations over the break-up of the UK if there were a yes vote, added: “There would be a highly complex set of negotiations after a yes vote with many moving pieces. The UK wants to keep Trident nuclear weapons at Faslane and the Scottish government wants a currency union – you can see the outlines of a deal.”
The trouble with this argument is that no matter how you look at it the Scottish government has Westminster over a barrel. They think that agreeing to a currency union gives Westminster the upper hand when in reality they have just admitted that they have a weak hand.
Now that this genie has been released, never again to be put back into the bottle, whatever teeth Better Together thought they had have finally been pulled and they are now nothing more than a toothless wonder. 😛
link to heraldscotland.com It’s almost certainly a UK.gov “leak.” This is the beginning of the end for bettertogether and they know it too. 28/03/2014, the day it all fell apart and haven’t they left Clegg and co looking even more silly. Farage must be laughing like a drain.
Please, ‘Better Together’, one blunder at a time! You are really spoiling us!
Grouse Beater / Arbroath 1320
The bizarre things is. Last week, I was learning gothic architecture, and guess the building?
Westminster of all places!
This week …Ireland, the Invention of Tradition …and it’s about Ireland between the Easter Uprising in 1916 to 1923.
And seriously, there was one quote that blew me away. Here it is …
When did our English-speaking history begin? For most of us, not much more than a century ago; for very many of us, not much more than a half-century ago; and for a not inconsiderable number – well over half a million – it has not begun at all. Our Gaelic-speaking history, on the other hand, goes back through a long series of centuries, back to the very dawn of authentic history, and probably far beyond it. … Shall we cut ourselves adrift from our Gaelic past, with all its wealth of tradition, of proud memories, of glorious literature – blot out centuries of our history, and appear before the world as a people whose history began a century or two ago?
Source: Rev. M.P. O’Hickey (1898) The True National Idea, London, Gaelic League
I couldn’t believe it when I read that. Taking Scotland as now …and Ireland a 100 years ago …and it is frighteningly similar! Especially that last sentence. This reminds me of being taught ‘O’ grade History in 1983 when we were taught Scottish history from 1760 onwards. Nothing before 1760 except one thing …we were taught the Scottish farming method of Runrig system. I believe it was a case of ‘look how poor Scottish history is! That is all you have; farming! Now see what happened 50 years after the Union and look how much better Scotland became within that Union.’
Schrodinger’s cat
Caption comp, song convert, Wullie to Clegg
Well I’ll need to keep ma Granny on ma bus
If we’ve nae room she cannae stay wi us
If you’re goin’ tae be a fanny
And Ah’ve nae room fur ma granny
Then Ah’ll need tae keep ma granny oan ma bus.
Plan A fell flat on its arse, the FM didn’t budge position by an inch on currency. Time for plan B and a shift in negotiations. 🙂
With the ‘announcement’ via media that a currency union can take place after all perhaps it should be the YES camp and NOT the Better Together camp who should be asking “What is your plan B?” 😛
time for a toon on this New Currency Evening – link to youtube.com
I’m reading this as Darling getting the boot. The “minister” just painted this as “his” strategy. Could it be Darling’s head is being served up as a peace offering?
And just to add to the mix of errmm mixed messages the Guardian carries this story tonight :
link to theguardian.com
Whitever next?
I’m always amazed JLT how history has a habit, is it bad I don’t know, of repeating itself. 😛
Right from the getgo I have had a warm glow inside of me about winning the referendum, not that I’ve been over optimistic, just a strong belief in what will happen on 19th September.
Now we appear to have Labour almost openly fighting in public over what taxes will be ‘offered’ and what won’t and now this bombshell, sorry no other word suits it, that a currency union is back on the table I’m really left asking the question “whatever is left for Better Together?” The simple answer from where I’m sitting is nothing. Better Together have just been spectacularly blown out of the water and is now sinking faster than you can say referendum! 🙂
Heedtracker
“Farage must be laughing like a drain”
Nah,the establishment are.The greatest hoodwink in history is about to be perpetrated on English voters unless we vote YES.They have been conned into believing that the market economy is the answer to all their woes.Too stupid?Buy something[Sky Sports].Too wee?Shout about something[Immigration].Too stupid?Complain[Then we can trivialise your problems and demean you]
Thank F we’re not that gullible.
Labour’s inner sanctum isn’t stupid. They read the same polls & same opinions as we do.
They’re no doubt preparing to remain in opposition at Westminster for another 5 years.
Miliband is a lousy leader; the polls say so & Labour’s calamitous economic track record is still not easily forgotten.
So when one plans on not having any power, one can make as many fantastic promises & claims as one likes because the chances of being in a position to deliver any of them are fag paper thin.
North British Labour, Scottish Branch will always have Westminster as their first priority so they can screw around with all sorts of nonsensical, contradictory policy statements, just so long as the SNP lose the referendum.
Thus, from Labour’s perspective, anyone in charge at Westminster is better than Scotland achieving independence.
Expect more fantastic claims & contradictions designed to muddle the electorates thinking, in an attempt to lead them to take the safe bet & stick with the status quo.
It’s a huge risk of course because the power & effect of social media may yet to be fully appreciated or even understood.
@Arb
Hehehehe, they don’t know whether they’re punched, bored or countersunk.
Like I said, no unsanctioned release by an unnamed minister. They’re floating another open air negotiation and seeing how it plays with the polls. Were I the FM I’d still hold pat and keep my hand close to my chest.
We’ve published a white paper, they’ve done squat. The YES vote has grown, the no vote has lost ground. Their tack changes by the week, the YES stance remains firm.
They look panicked and I’m beginning to smell fear.
Or something… 🙂
F___ me. Just IMAGINE the hay that Alec is going to make with this. Even if it’s BS, or some junior minister who just unwisely opened his mouth (unlikely), this is catastrophic for BT.
Oh to be a fly on the wall in Bute House this evening!!!!
Trying to float a nukes/pound trade-off is a bit desperate on the part of Whitehall. Its been allgedly leaked and officially denied… but… it isn’t a pre-negotiated negotiating position you understand… “Of course there will be a currency union,” isn’t a negotiating position. It’s an acknowledgement that they know it’s the best possible deal they can hope for.
How many thousands of times has Flipper Darling said currency union “just wont happen” and now what he’s going to say? I, Flipper Darling resign, is best bet.
ot but check out this utter shyte. Link courtesy of Britnutter from DT.talltalescafe.wordpress.com/
Currency Union will now happen, UK Government Minister announces.
Well up here in the real world we always knew it would. But why this ‘leak’ all of a sudden? Well, I predicted this would happen about two months ago. Just like the Treasury announcement back then of UK ownership over UK debt was made to ‘calm the markets’, it seems to me that the money-men now need some further reassurance and this ‘announcement’ is giving them what they need. You can bet your last pound sterling that’s behind this ‘leak’.
Labour MSPs trying to overthrow JoLa? C’mon, these are folk who’d probably think a coup is somethin that stons in a field. The reality is they’re so brainless they can’t even understand policies they’ve been workin on for 2 years, they’l end up pleading idiocy and Jola will just whisper in their ear n say “A dinnae really underston it tae”, the media will ignore it and that’l be that…
link to talltalescafe.wordpress.com
Or even this one.
@JLT – Don’t mention Gaelic to the Rev 🙂
They look panicked and I’m beginning to smell fear.
I agree Macart. The fight for the union has just, how can I say this politely, let one gawd almighty one go and emptied the room! 😛
tartanarse
You’re as bad at links as I am.
Interesting take on currency union and abysmal no campaign from Eric Joyce.
link to ericjoyce.co.uk
@Betsy – Eric Joyce says There’s time, like. The No campaign is burdened by a negative imperative, but it could point out the good things about remaining part of the UK FFS Mr Joyce if you’re gonna say that at least have the good grace to give us one f*cking good thing about remaining as part of this union
@Proud Cybernat 10:32pm
It seems an odd thing to spring after close of markets on a Friday if it’s meant to calm the markets. The trading floor boys and girls will have a whole weekend to stew it into something they can use to make more obscene truckloads of dosh on Monday. There will be a blip lasting a couple of hours and then they’ll drop back into “now, where were we?” mode.
I’d be willing to bet that the “insider” will make a few bob too.
I’m beginning to get the impression that the Romano/German policy of divide and conquer has seeped into our cause.Or maybe it’s those that previously supported the gravy train are now looking beyond it’s final destination Wullie Rennie,Charles Kennedy,Eric Joyce…etc.
Have they smelt the change in the air and are now realigning for a definite change?Or are they hedging their bets?
Goldenayr
I’m not the most technical. To be honest I saw someone being told off by Rev in relation to links and thought that I had to remove the http: bit, but then I saw some others and thought I’d go for it.
Wait till I work out how to get the videos on.
(only joking Rev, we’ve quite enough of those already)
Even McColm’s getting in on the act:
euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 10 mins
hear the guardian source who breached the government line on no currency union is uncomfortably senior tory. #indyref
euan mccolm ?@euanmccolm 2 hrs
this is simply terrible for the #bettertogether campaign: link to theguardian.com … #indyref
On the currency union, reported in the Guardian, it should be noticed Faslane was mentioned. “They want a currency union, we want to keep Trident at Faslane”.
@ JLT
Irish history. Now you talking!
And your talking to a man whose grandfather came from County Mayo – founder of the Musician’s Union in Scotland, a pioneer in establishing orchestras here, and revilled in the unusual Irish name of Patrick Reilly. (My mother’s Scots, my father Sicilian.) I envy you your time to study the history of our peoples. Listen to Irish Radio during the day while I get on with projects. Presenters comment a lot in their daily shows about our struggles for democratic hegemony seeing it from a benign perspective compared to our colonial irritants.
I learned Irish history from reading the works of Brendan Behan. Now there’s a broth of a boy!
Herald running with the CU story but the state broadcaster spinning with Carmichael rubbishing the statement.
That will convince everyone lol
There can be NO negotiation of keeping Trident on the Clyde it has to go that has to be non-negotiable..surely!
@tartanarse 10:45
I’ve figured that if the URL starts with www. then you need to remove the http bit. If it starts with something like news.bbc etc. WITHOUT the www bit then it seems that you need to leave the http in place.
Sits back with fingers in ears waiting for the Rev’s thunder and lightning …
Croompenstein says:
There can be NO negotiation of keeping Trident on the Clyde it has to go that has to be non-negotiable..surely!
There is no ‘has’ about it Croompenstein it IS non-negotiable end of! 😛
Arbroath 1320,
It’s been a weird day! I think I converted another person. At lunch, a few of us talked about the Shetland piece (or nonsense) on ITN News last night. This got us on to Scottish History. I told them about the Darien Scheme, and everyone of them literally went, ‘What? What scheme?’
When I told them, their jaws hit the floor. One of them later asked for more info on the Darien Scheme, the Alien Act and the act of Union.
And just like what O’Hickey mentioned about the Irish not knowing their history back in 1898. We are the same today. Britain does not want Scotland to know its true history.
But if we become independent …well, that’s why I’m doing a degree in Scottish History. I want to eventually become a history teacher and teach our kids the real history one day.
Croompenstein,
Okay …you got me! What is it about Gaelic that worries / annoys / angers the Rev?
On the currency thing….
The Tories put down their marker on Darling for narrowing polls when they described him as “Comatose” when the White Paper was launched.
According to McColm, The Guardian source is a Senior Cabinet Tory…..
And interesting to note the line that hasn’t been denied is……
The “Currency Union Scare” was a strategy devised by Alistair Darling not George Osbourne/Ed Balls.
A fatal blow to BT and the No Campaign….
Now YES can say ‘Dinna worry it’s a bluff’ to pretty much everything they say going forward.
So, a currency union in return for leaving the nukes in place. Okay, but what’s the good part of this deal?
Currency union wrecks rUK economy thanks to lost ability to finance external deficit, Scotland dragged down in turn by collapse of largest trading partner, and the nukes are still there.
Who benefits? Well, bond markets benefit from the yields they will be able to extract as rUK no longer has currency control. So maybe the money men are pushing this and Westminster are sufficiently incompetent/corrupt to go along with it.
Assuming this is a ‘leak’ and not a genuine mistake and/or junior minister having an attack of the vapours.
Is it not the case that under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty it is forbidden for one country to keep its nuclear arsenal in another country? In that case, after Scottish indy, it would be illegal for the rUK to keep Trident in Scotland. Or am I talking a pile o’ mince?
tartanarse
Re vids,links and everything else.I,m no luddite but I don’t have a clue how to do it.Maybe in this new tech age I could be classed as “unsullied”.
Congratulations JLT, every little bit helps! 😛
Arbroath 1320 @9.28
History in the making indeed.
I’m collecting lots of info, cartoons, pictures of anything promoting Yes that I’ll pick through then print and frame to hang in my stairwell to mark this historic event, I’m also keeping a record of the daily Facebook Yes v BT likes that Flipper takes serious.
I’m looking for links to key dates of the main issues affecting the referendum since Jan 1st, or I will email my xml if anybody can update these key dates in the comments in the date column.
Even the late Scotland Tonight had the story the same as the Guardian and the Herald. I don’t normally watch but did so tonight at 22:25 to see if they would cover it. So after that bit of balance expect them to clean their minds out with biased scaremongering over the weekend. How do you expect them to exist with all that good news for Yes washing around their heids?