stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


This is your country, No voters

Posted on October 20, 2014 by

Preserved for posterity in case of sudden vanishing, but also because we just couldn’t face writing another post about “The Vow” today.

This is a real thing that you can buy on Amazon and iTunes. If you chose to be British last month, this is what “British” means in 2014. Enjoy it.

Print Friendly

    2 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 20 10 14 13:01

      This is your country, No voters | FreeScotland

    2. 20 10 14 14:41

      This is your country, No voters - Speymouth

    318 to “This is your country, No voters”

    1. MekQuarrie says:

      About 30 seconds was enough. Barfing still…

    2. There’s nae need for that Rev, I wiz eating ma dainer

    3. Macart says:

      Great googly – fucking – moogly.

      NURSE! Crash cart and adrenalin IV required stat.

      CLEAR!

    4. Croompenstein says:

      Jeezo are they bringing back the black and white minstrel show? I just picture the singer blacked up like Al Jolson with a rasta wig 🙂

    5. Brian MacLeod says:

      That was genius and funny (if you can forget who it is in support of). 🙂

      We need something like that too.

    6. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      –and a “black” calypso voice too; the irony?

    7. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      Oh no this is the Mike Read UKIP Calypso – Aaaaargh.

      I made the the mistake of clicking on a EVEL petition listed by someone on Wings and ended up getting this e-mail from Nigel Farage…

      ————————————————————–
      Help UKIP Get To Number One!

      Our celebrity member Mike Read, the former Radio 1 DJ, has written a brand new single especially for UKIP and we need your help to get it to the top of the pop charts.

      First performed to great acclaim at our Party Conference in Doncaster, UKIP Calypso by The Independents needs to sell just 22,000 downloads to make it into the Top 30, or 28,000 to get into the Top 10.

      Wouldn’t it be great if we could get this song into the charts and played on radio stations around Britain?

      With more than 40,000 members and thousands more supporters we’re sure we can do this! It costs just 79p to download, 20p of which will go to UKIP.

      Please click here to get listening and help take us to the top!

      Best wishes,

      Nigel Farage

      Leader of UKIP
      ———————————————-

      Mike Read – FFS – I thought he was dead long ago – no he just joined UKIP.

    8. Jim Thomson says:

      They obviously don’t have much in the production budget. There are some nice software plug-ins that can auto-tune that diabolical off key rendition of what ever that was.

      I say “was” because I have no intention of EVER subjecting my lugs to that again.

    9. johnsmithmaybe says:

      Nauseating, almost beyond words…an effortless slide from ‘immigrants’ to ‘illegal immigrants’ without any attempt to distinguish. that music…was expecting to see an episode of ‘love thy neighbour’ to start any second. the party that cannot find anything positive about ‘immigrants’ (despite wanting to trade with the whole world), the party of ‘bongo bongo land’ and intolerance of other languages being spoken, and certain nationalities living next door…the party that likes tot ake public expenses and boast about not representing the public by never voting in the eu institutions…mussolini and hitler’s spawn…evil and dangerous. no voters – THIS is what narrow, inward-looking nationalism looks like.

    10. bjsalba says:

      About as out of touch as our MPs.

      http://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/10/graph-mp-constituent-trust-compared/

      I wrote and told mine I’d vote for the candidate most likely to unseat him. He hasn’t replied.

    11. Eleanor says:

      Nah, it’ll never happen. Will it?

    12. Valerie says:

      Urrggh, I need a hot shower now!

    13. Alexandra Waugh says:

      “Mike Read – FFS – I thought he was dead long ago – no he just joined UKIP.”

      Same thing really, Dr. Mackintosh.

      ROFLMAO

    14. Luigi says:

      Dr JM Mackintosh says:
      20 October, 2014 at 1:09 pm

      Oh no this is the Mike Read UKIP Calypso – Aaaaargh.

      I made the the mistake of clicking on a EVEL petition listed by someone on Wings and ended up getting this e-mail from Nigel Farage…

      My fault – apologies for any UKIP junk in your inbox.

      I also signed it – to keep the pressure on Labour. I also support EVEL, however, out of democratic principle – why should Scottish (Labour) MPs be voting on devolved issues? And Barnett? Well, it looks like it is going soon anyway.

      As for the UKIP Calypso? I hope it goes straight to number one. An appropriate reminder of the shallow nothingness that UK politics has become. I want NO voters to hear it every time they switch the radio on.

    15. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Why is his right arm bent at the elbow, it should be straight.

    16. bookie from hell says:

      bob marley#fail

    17. galamcennalath says:

      I wish this had been widespread before the 18th September!

      What No voters thought they were voting for … and what the rest of us knew they would actually get … are quite different! This little ditty is the latter! How long will it take for them to realise.

    18. Gordon E says:

      I love the irony that it sounds like an immigrant band singing this.

    19. handclapping says:

      Man, reminds me of when I came up the Clyde on a banana boat! 🙂

      But I can see some useful rhythms there
      … in spite Yes Dumbarton and Dundee …
      … see Scotland as a mouse
      with JoHanne Lamont at Bute House

      We should do our own Wings calypso

    20. bookie from hell says:

      Read, who spent more than a decade at Radio 1, hit the headlines in 1984 when he refused to play the Frankie Goes to Hollywood single Relax because he objected to its lyrics.

    21. bookie from hell says:

      tweeter quotes about mike read trending are epic

    22. Capella says:

      Grim. Next post please.

    23. Tackety Beets says:

      I was gonna post , compliments following the good banter having returned last night O/T , thats it F@@k*d now .

      Shoulda been an Espania in support o Catalan !

      Can’t have everything I suppose .

    24. gillie says:

      UKIP Calypso by former Radio 1 DJ Mike Read?

      FFS!

      The BBC are an organisation that has shielded sexual offenders and promoted racists.

    25. MajorBloodnok says:

      Deo, De-eh-eh-oh. UKIP comin’ an’ a wan go home.

      Harry Belafonte will be turning in his grave.

    26. ronnie anderson says:

      The only thing missing from that song. Where,s the Sunshine.

    27. CameronB Brodie says:

      Mike or NWA? You choose.

      N.W.A. – Express Yourself
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u31FO_4d9TY

    28. gillie says:

      This song/music is so fuking offensive!

      Mike Read should be smacked in the pus and told to shut his pus?

      We should form an orderly queue.

    29. Doug Daniel says:

      Well that was… interesting.

      My band got together at the weekend for the first time in five and a half years. I think we might as well just give up now, because we’re never going to scale the heights of this.

    30. wee jock poo-pong mcplop says:

      Does it really say (at about 50″ in) “Stop telling lies about us, Jew, and we’ll stop telling the truth about you”??

      Hoping I mis-heard that bit.

      Rather wishing i hadn’t heard any of it at all…urrgghhh

    31. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      @luigi
      I
      no problem – it was worth putting a vote for EVEL as it is going to screw up the UK parliament big time.

      Just I did not expect to get a response from the Main Man – Nigel.

      Like yourself, I hope it gets to number one but I doubt it will, it lacks something?
      Music, lyrics, production, meaning, etc, – but you never know. It will probably be spun constantly on BBC radio for the next month or so anyway.

    32. Grizzle McPuss says:

      Just for you all to sing along to…and a goose step two, three…

      ‘UKIP Calypso’

      Tax payers money where does it go?
      Not even George Osborne knows
      When we’re in power and we engage
      There will be no tax on minimum wage

      Our leaders committed a cardinal sin
      Open the borders let them all come in
      Illegal immigrants in every town
      Stand up and be counted Blair and Brown

      Chorus:
      Oh yes when we take charge
      And the new Prime Minister is Farage
      We can trade with the world again
      When Nigel is at number 10

      The British People have been let down
      That’s why UKIP is making ground
      From Crewe to Cleethorpes to Outer Hendon
      They don’t believe Cameron’s referendum

      Coalition could be a fact
      With any party we could make a pact
      Stop telling lies about us too
      And we’ll stop telling the truth about you

      [Chorus]

      Though our pension scheme is in a mess
      We need money for the NHS
      With Jean-Claude Juncker we’re giving away
      55 million every day

      Oh what a farce, he won the vote
      This is my favourite Juncker quote
      He looked the reporters straight in the eyes
      “When things get serious it’s time to lie”

      [Chorus]

      The EU live in wonderland
      Tried to ban bent bananas and British jam
      We don’t want jam the EU way
      Jam yesterday, tomorrow and never today

      The daily polls suggest somehow
      UKIP are the third party now
      In the Euro elections we were so immersed
      We weren’t the third party, we were the first

      [Chorus]

      When the government’s sitting on the fence
      UKIP policies make more sense
      Get out of Europe, is our target
      Common wealth and not common market

      Other parties please take note
      UKIP is not a protest vote
      So mark your cross and by word of mouth
      Tell them what to do in Thanet South

      [chorus]

      With the EU we must be on our mettle
      They want to change our lawnmowers and our kettles
      Our hairdryers, smartphones and vacuum cleaners
      But UKIP is wise to their misdemeanours

      Farage he likes his fags and beer
      But there’s one thing I want to get clear
      Now I like Nigel he’s a friend of mine
      He appears on Dimbleby on Question Time

      [chorus]

      The other parties will count the costings
      In Eastleigh, Thurrock and Bow they’re lost in
      Labour and Tories shaking in their boots
      When UKIP kick them up the grassroots

      Meanwhile down on Clacton-on-Sea
      UKIP are making history
      Douglas Carswell is quite adamant
      Will be the first MP in parliament

      [chorus]

    33. I asked a FOI of police scotland about postal votes and Ruth davidson and John McTernan. This is the question and the answer.

      =======================================

      From: James Caithness

      28 September 2014

      Dear Police Scotland,

      What are the Police doing, about the admission of Ruth Davidson and
      John McTernan, having the result of sampling of postal votes at the
      Independence Referendum count?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyvnWAKZ...

      This is John McTernan admitting this.

      Yours faithfully,

      James Caithness

      Link to this
      From: FOI
      Police Scotland

      20 October 2014

      NOT PROTECTIVELY MARKED

      Mr Caithness,

      With regards to Ms Davidson we can confirm that we have been instructed
      to commence an investigation into alleged breaches of Schedule 7,
      Paragraph 7, of the Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013.

      A compliant has been received and is being assessed in relation to Mr
      McTernan.

      Kind Regards

      Insp Graeme Cuthbertson

      Police Scotland
      Information Management (FOI)

    34. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvUQcnfwUUM

      just to brighten up your day.

    35. ronnie anderson says:

      Ah did try to remove the http: honest Rev.

    36. Kenlike says:

      Time to get Blue Tulip Rose Read back on this fucker’s case

    37. Dan Watt (@DanPbass) says:

      The irony, of a UKIP fan making a calypso tune, music originating in a land full of people they despise, is delicious to say the least!

    38. gillie says:

      Mike Read still can be heard on BBC Radio Berkshire.

      I think that justifies a call for the BBC to sack him.

    39. Croompenstein says:

      @gillie –

      We should form an orderly queue

      Like this……

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc

      We could also do this for Dan1973 😀

    40. gerry parker says:

      @James Caithness.

      We raised a complaint with Police Scotland re incident at NLC Postal Vote Opening and Counting.

      Investigation is ongoing.

    41. Tamson says:

      Mike Read was a great pal of Sir Jimmy Saville, lest we forget.

    42. Stoker says:

      Re Farage video – Absolute brilliance – teary eyed with laughter.
      🙂

    43. Clootie says:

      Macart says:
      20 October, 2014 at 1:05 pm

      🙂
      You are a mind reader

    44. Les Wilson says:

      James Caithness says:

      Well, your clip has been sorted by GCHQ or friends.
      No longer available.

      This has happened to many clips that people put on, somewhere a little Westminster geek is sitting at a desk and having them deleted as quick as they are put on.

    45. gillie says:

      Call Mike Read on 0345 900 1041 to tell him what you think of his song writing.

    46. handclapping says:

      @MajorBloodnok
      No Harry could sing. My first thought was Lance Percival on TW3

    47. wullie says:

      What No voters really want to vote for of that I am certain, we yessers are in for a horrible shock come the UK GE

    48. bookie from hell says:

      bbc wages are on the public sector mike

      Tax payers money where does it go?(bbc your wage mike)

    49. Macart says:

      @Clootie

      The scary thing is, UKIP won’t see a problem with this mind numbingly juvenile ditty. Worse the press has primed a fair old chunk of middle England’s voting electorate to think along the same lines.

      2017 is looking to be the year when the pooh truly hits the proverbial. 😉

    50. Stoker says:

      O/T – A reminder to all, today see’s the introduction, by law in Scotland, of a minimum 5p charge, in all shops, per carrier bag.

    51. manandboy says:

      @wullie
      What No voters really want to vote for of that I am certain, we yessers are in for a horrible shock come the UK GE,
      Wullie, I prefer my horrible shocks well in advance. Can you oblige please with some detail, otherwise I’ll be wracking my brains and they’re in a bad enough state as it is. Cheers

    52. CameronB Brodie says:

      Perhaps Mike is just bitter.

      Although a newcomer to politics, Mr Read is being treated as a serious candidate by Tory officials. He was told at one interview he would make a “formidable” candidate to take on Mr Livingstone in next year’s mayoral elections.

      http://ourscotland.myfreeforum.org/archive/could-dj-mike-read-be-the-next-london-mayor__o_t__t_3165.html

    53. manandboyc says:

      Wullie, it’s alright – the penny dropped. I’ve not had my medicine yet.

    54. bob sinclair says:

      The Irony of Mike Read’s radio station being Radio Berks should not be lost on anyone.

    55. Kenlike says:

      I’m waiting for the King Tubby dub version.

    56. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Bob Sinclair the irony wasent lost on me ( Berk fae Berks ) you jist goat in first Hi Bob.

    57. Marie clark says:

      Major @ 1.48 erm, ah, Harry Belafonte is still very much with us, so he cannae birl in his grave. Or no yet anyway.

      Sorry to be pedantic.

    58. fred blogger says:

      their skill, as with all right wing groups or parties is to point blame away from themselves and to project it on some alleged, usually minority, “enemy, foe, or scapegoat.”
      we the electorate have virtually no influence on wealth distribution and jobs creation powers or effective policies to implement such things, it’s more or less that’s too bad suffer it!

    59. @Les Wilson – I wonder if has been taken off as it will probably be evidence.

      If though it is as you say someone in GCHQ doing this, well it’s good to see Democracy at work.

    60. msean says:

      If Mr Farage became Prime Minister,would that hasten an independent Scotland,or would it be just accepted as the “will of the people”, whether you voted for ukip or not?

    61. Kenlike says:

      When do these UKIP guys get their uniforms?

    62. boris says:

      If there’s any part of Glasgow with, “No Mean City” gouged on its forearm in sharpened Biro, it is Glasgow North East. The constituency, taking in a slice of Bishopbriggs in the north to the fringes of the city centre in the south, brings new shades of meaning to fearsome; it is urban squalor in every hue, an area that looks as if it is helping police with their enquiries. The UK Polling Report guide says Glasgow North East is one of the “most degraded, deprived and crime-ridden parts” of the country. Come here and you are left supposing it was just being diplomatic, though, as you shuttle between the mean, flatlining shopping centres and the vast science fiction interzone of the Red Road flats.

      No sooner had Willie Bain called for reconciliation than people were tweeting how their elderly parents had been told by him they would lose their pensions if they voted Yes

      And there’s more about Wee Willie. Nasty piece of work.

      http://caltonjock.com/2014/10/20/glasgow-north-east-willie-bain-mp-and-the-worst-served-community-in-the-uk/

    63. Cadogan Enright says:

      IF YOU ARE A SERIOUS WINGER – YOU HAVE TO LIKE THIS; –

      https://www.facebook.com/target59

      And supported by SNP from the looks of this

      http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/snp-deputy-candidates-back-pro-yes-alliance-1-3577101

      And I saw it on Scottish Greens Facebook page yesterday – maybe we have a serious hope of landing a crushing blow in May?

    64. ronnie anderson says:

      Ah went on a wee saunter in Glasgow yesterday starting at Donald Dewars statue, forgot to take some Millet for the Doo,s,statue’s need some Doo Foo or even Seagulls but that requires big chunks of bread or chips, just saying like if abody has a mind to give the statue a makeover, without the expence.

    65. James123 says:

      David Mitchell is getting a mention on the Rev’s twitter page at the moment.

      Just bare in mind that he also said these things:

      “I was sad to see the SNP win a majority in the Scottish Parliament.”

      “Independence could be carried through on a wave of optimism created by something as flimsy as Scotland qualifying for a World Cup”

      This is what he wanted to say to Nicola Sturgeon:
      “You’ve got it in for Britain, the Britain of London where I now live, of Swansea, my mother’s home town where I spent a lot of time as a child, and of Galloway, where my paternal grandparents lived, is something you want to destroy. I’m British, I care about this and I’ve a hunch I’m not the only one”

      Any of those words could have been uttered by a pro-Union nutjob, and perhaps they were.

    66. Dave Smith says:

      UKIP kinda remind me of the idiot on x factor who the British public always vote to keep in just for a laugh…sad to say the last laugh will be on us next year.

    67. bookie from hell says:

      mike trolls replying

      Hey Mike, on your show is there any chance you could play Kung Fu Fighting for my buddies in Hong Kong please?

      When you say” buddies at Jamaica Tourism”, do you mean their offended border police?

      will you be blacking up?

      is this the “some of my best friends are black” defence?

    68. desimond says:

      Mike Reads wrote a Musical
      Was all about Oscar Wilde
      It closed the first night!
      It quickly drove the critics wild with rage
      Whilst poor Oscar, slowly turned in his grave

      Poor soul declared bankrupt twice and had to sell his record collection worth 1m quid…did i say poor soul?

    69. K1 says:

      Cadogan’s Scotsman article…archived:

      https://archive.today/Xz8OM

    70. Helena Brown says:

      Sorry I am about to cook dinner and I really want to enjoy it.

    71. Macart says:

      @Helena

      Viewers of a nervous disposition PG only. 😀

    72. gillie says:

      BBC now officially a racist organisation.

      Quote BBC, “A BBC spokeswoman said Read had not breached the corporation’s guidelines on ‘impartiality’ by releasing the song.”

      We already knew the ‘impartiality’ was a joke but the ‘UKIP Calypso” is plainly racist.

      The BBC, state broadcaster, that represents the interests of sex offenders and racists.

    73. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT, but they can not be serious.

      Shadow Scottish Secretary Margaret Curran has revealed she’s looking to the people who crushed the BNP in London for advice on how to win back Labour supporters who voted Yes in the independence referendum.

      In yesterday’s Sunday Post.

    74. Tattie-bogle says:

      Code Blue i repeat Code Blue

    75. Elizabeth Sutherland says:

      I read a piece last week that UKIP may need funding as they seem to have lost a share of 14mil Euros. The right wing block in the EU parly was disbanded by the parly as one of the 7block was persuaded to step down. Poor Nigel he lost speaking time also in the debates as well. RT online last week, the link came down pretty fast. Don’t know if it can be found again.

    76. Macart says:

      @CameronB

      Oh Jeez.

      Curran probably hasn’t clue one about what she’s just done there and doesn’t see why she’ll never win votes back with such a tack.

      ‘Astonished’. 😮

    77. Murray McCallum says:

      UKIP have put their manifesto to sing song? I thought it was Jeremy Clarkson’s job to drip feed their policy visions?

      Ah well, millions of folk down south love these UKIPers. It’s all up to them to decide how far they go. It’s all about solidarity with former British Labour voters who are now switching to UKIP.

    78. Helena Brown says:

      Cheers Ronnie I loved Summertime, boy that takes me back.

      Macart, bad enough it is Vietnamese Pho and the old man is already having flash backs even though he hasn’t been there, but goose stepping calypso what ever next.

    79. liz says:

      @boris – well researched article but until people look around and ask themselves what do Labour do for them and find the answer is nothing – they will continue to vote in these careerists.

      The likes of RIC and SSP would do well to target those seats.

      As for David Mitchell he is a very funny guy but stuck in the London luvvie bubble and doesn’t have much clue what is going on outside it

    80. Les Wilson says:
      20 October, 2014 at 2:25 pm
      James Caithness says:

      Well, your clip has been sorted by GCHQ or friends.
      No longer available.

      This has happened to many clips that people put on, somewhere a little Westminster geek is sitting at a desk and having them deleted as quick as they are put on.

      =========================================

      On the WHATDOTHEYKNOW site my original FOI the link still works.

    81. SquareHaggis says:

      Stoker says:

      “O/T – A reminder to all, today see’s the introduction, by law in Scotland, of a minimum 5p charge, in all shops, per carrier bag.”

      Just pulling one over my head the noo…

    82. Macart says:

      @Helena

      I was thinking of a good meal tonight, but after half a minute of that wee tune, I’ve decided on dry toast masel’. 😀

      Dear God, they’re welcome to all of that in the heart of Daily Mail country.

    83. Kenlike says:

      Hey Mike. Why don’t you do a calypso version of that Ugly Duckling song you did?

    84. Dick Gaughan says:

      Grizzle McPuss says

      I watched the first 20 seconds or so and came to the conclusion that it was a quite feeble pisstake my day would be enriched by missing the rest of – then I reached your transcription and realised it was actually genuine pro UKIP pish. Should be a big hit in Bermondsey.

      Fair pit me aff ma puddin supper, that did.

    85. bookie from hell says:

      desimond says:

      20 October, 2014 at 3:44 pm

      Mike Reads wrote a Musical
      Was all about Oscar Wilde
      It closed the first night!

      walofs

    86. Stoker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      20 October, 2014 at 3:56 pm
      Shadow Scottish Secretary Margaret Curran has revealed she’s looking to the people who crushed the BNP in London for advice on how to win back Labour supporters who voted Yes in the independence referendum.
      ________________________

      She should ask her Aberdeen colleague for advice on this matter. The same Red Tory scab who was assisted in her ‘No campaign’ by a known BNP/NF activist.
      SLAB are nothing but rancid Red Tory collaborators.

    87. SquareHaggis says:

      Red, turning blue, going purple…

      POP!!

      ahhhhh…

    88. Stoker says:

      quareHaggis says:
      20 October, 2014 at 4:36 pm
      Stoker says:
      A reminder to all, today see’s the introduction, by law in Scotland, of a minimum 5p charge, in all shops, per carrier bag.”

      Just pulling one over my head the noo
      _________________________
      🙂

    89. bookie from hell says:

      Scottish independence referendum: what we learned about bookies vs pollsters

      As the dust settles on the Scottish independence referendum, Paddy Power trader Stephanie Anderson

      Paddy Power’s biggest ever non-sports event. The liquidity was impressive enough to create a strong betting line.

      There was, however, a clear disparity between the betting line and the forecasting determined by pollsters.

      The difference was money. The bookmaker was accepting huge sums for No to independence. All of the chunkier bets were being wagered on that side.

      The Yes betting was not insubstantial (with a slightly higher Yes percentage on average from Scottish punters), but the weight and power of the cash for No forced us to keep it odds on all the way.

      ‘No’ was only ever priced as generously as 4/9 (representing about a 67% chance), occurring during the two week run up to the vote.

      Who was going to end up looking sheepish by the time the votes were in and counted? The bookies, or the pollsters?

      The betting line was not a representation of answers people gave to questions about voting intention or past political preferences. It was a line of opinion created by investments.

      Punters put their money where their mouth was and gave a different story than was given to the pollsters.

      There are a number of possible reasons why the pollsters struggled to get to grips with Scotland 2014.

      Never-before-seen voters 16 & 17-year-olds were permitted to vote. This age group had never voted in an election before. It was not known how many would come out and vote, or how they would vote.

      There was a huge uptake in registration of those from every age group that had never voted before, and therefore had never been polled before.

      The older vote is normally critical because they tend to vote in disproportionately high numbers – everyone knows this, it’s why politicians bow down to older voters.

      Pollsters have relied on this constant and it is built in to normal polling rules and methods – but those rules went out of the window for this referendum.

      The pattern of behaviour was different, meaning that it was difficult for any classic polling model to deal with.

      Not a strictly party political issue Pollsters normally use information on previous voting records to make predictions about elections – this was not as useful as usual in this referendum.

      Ahead of the vote, it was estimated that 40% of those that voted Labour in the 2010 general election were going to vote YES in the referendum, for all kinds of different reasons – the pollsters’ models were not designed to take that kind of differentiation into account.

      Turnout By the beginning of September, the voter registration was high and the turnout was expected to exceed 80% (the 1995 Quebec independence referendum turnout was 93.5%).

      The Scottish turnout for the 2010 general election was 64%, and the turnout for the 2011 Scottish elections was 50%. Pollsters are not experienced at dealing with such high turnout.

      A host of people who normally just didn’t vote were about to contribute to the independence referendum result – it was not a normal election, and the normal predictive methods clearly struggled to make sense of the results they were receiving.

      The turnout issue made it difficult for pollsters to get valuable information out of their sample, because the shape of the vote was considerably altered.

      So, what can be surmised is that the tried and tested models for prediction fell somewhat short. And the old adage rang true – follow the money

    90. T Thumb says:

      Long time lurker first time poster. Just had to say how much that has put me off my tea

    91. Bob Sinclair says:

      I just made a terrible terrible mistake, which I will never ever get over.

      I listened to it, I think it’s the audio version of that Japanese movie where if you watch the videotape you’ll be dead 7 days later.

    92. Stoker says:

      K1 says:
      20 October, 2014 at 3:44 pm
      Cadogan’s Scotsman article…archived:
      _____________________

      Genuine question:
      So what does that mean?
      Does this prevent them from getting site hits when we click
      on a link to view an archived item?
      I’m extremely reluctant to give ANY unionist establishment
      ANY form of support, ESPECIALLY the unionist media.
      I looked at the first link in Cadogan’s post but deliberately
      ignored the other link as it linked straight to the hootsmin.

    93. Cadogan Enright, “Aye’ll be back”, wish I’d ah thought of that.

      Noo, where can I get a “T” shirt made?

    94. Dorothy Devine says:

      That was God awful.

      Harry Belafonte is a human rights supporter , took his life and career in his hands by supporting Martin Luther King – he is 87 and if any of you get the chance to see the film of his life story take it.Scarlet Ribbons was a big favourite of my youth – I am a deal more cynical these days.

      Anyone see the article by Michael Settle about Cleggs Japanese soldier comment?
      The Herald really does not deserve to exist with a couple of honourable exceptions.

    95. Martin says:

      Aye, but it’s quite catchy…

    96. Quentin Quale says:

      Steady on, Mike, you’re doing untold damage to 1970s DJs. Pop Quest was crap as well so you’ve got form.

    97. Cadogan Enright says:

      For the love of all that is holy – forget UKIP – in a FPTP election they split the Tory and Unionist vote and should be positively encouraged to run in Scotland if at all possible.

      Meanwhile will some of you PLEASE pay attention to https://www.facebook.com/target59

    98. wullie says:

      manandboyc says:
      20 October, 2014 at 2:44 pm
      Wullie, it’s alright – the penny dropped. I’ve not had my medicine yet.

      I can’t indulge you anymore than the result of the referendum, what is it that you don’t see about 2 million plus voters voting NO, I still think we are in a bubble talking to ourselves, sure the bubble got bigger as time went on but to no avail. Here is a shock if you want one, 84% of the people living in Scotland voted, what do you think the British establishment will be doing with that information. Names addresses how the people voted,they will be collating the info in preparation for any election, to win at any cost is the name of the game. They also have a winning formulae proven by the result of the ref, the media in all its forms.
      Approaching my 65th year I have waited all my life for the opportunity to live in an independent Scotland, brought up in Dalmuir in the 50s in a family which even then believed in an independent Scotland, I now consider that I will have been born, lived and died in an occupied country, I am ashamed and at the same time raging effing mad.
      The cracks in my belief that we would win the indy ref came when the result of the European elections came about, the SNP should have taken every seat that to me would have meant that a sea change was taking place, alas it was not to be and I began to get worried.
      I suggest you have a good look at Scotlands history, it has always been those whom we thought were our own people who were in actual fact our most dangerous enemy. They are with us today as strong as ever and still ruling the roost
      I have no answers all I can do is keep voting indy

    99. K1 says:

      Stoker,

      ‘Does this prevent them from getting site hits when we click
      on a link to view an archived item?’

      Yes

      It also retains the original article as an ‘archive’ as sometimes articles are altered by the publisher at later times.

    100. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ Can you send it on to Mike Read and Nigel, before you pop your clogs, please

      Thanks

      BtP

    101. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      One above to Bill Sinclair, if he is still with us.

    102. manandboy says:

      @bookie from hell
      Excellent post.

      The Referendum story entitled “The True Story Of IndyFix”
      cannot be written yet simply because after only a month, not nearly enough time has passed for enough of the truth to come out.
      More truth is required before the pieces of the No plan can be put together. After all it was fully 30 years after the McCrone Report was written that we got to know the truth.

      At the time in 1974, the official story was solid just like the official story about the Referendum is also solid. A 10% margin – perfect for a gullible public to believe. Perfect for the result to be accepted.
      The puzzle is why do the public believe a Government which lies so big, so much and so often.

      The fixing team whose public face is John McTernan, will have contained many more PR people well schooled in the dark arts of how to rig an election. If you are going to run a clean vote, why hire John McTernan. It’s not what he does.
      By itself, the former Labour party, now the Red Tories, know all you need to know about ‘getting a result’ without the need for votes. Votes are about democracy and we’ve dispensed with that a long time ago, since around 1950.

      Why even Ruth Davidson knew the result long before the 18th when the ballot boxes were installed at the polling stations so that the pantomime could begin and the public deceived. It was an elaborate hoax by master conjurers.

      If she knew, then others in the well heeled Tory Party knew. With inside information, they saw an opportunity to make some easy money from the bookies. And took it.

    103. Flower of Scotland says:

      O/t @ Cadogan Enright.

      Ok, I’ve been on your site and liked it and then we,ll see what happens. It’s a good idea.

    104. K1 says:

      P.S. Stoker,

      You don’t have to click on the article to archive it. Right click on link, choose ‘copy link location’, open http://archive.today/. Make sure cursor is in the red bordered area, right click ‘paste’. Then click ‘submit url’.

      (you may already know all this, but for the sake of those that don’t… 🙂 )

    105. ben madigan says:

      @Elizabeth Sutherland at 4.13 pm and anyone who is interested in Elizabeth’s comment about UKIP in the EU –

      I posted about this last week with some links underneath for more information

      http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/ukips-european-parliament-group-collapses/

    106. Franariod says:

      The problem is that there are quiet a few no voters up here want ukip in power. They see Europe as the problem not Westminster.

    107. Alex Clark says:

      @manandboy

      Does your argument extend to the General Election in 2015? Are you saying that in a society as corrupt as the UK there can never be a fair election?

      These are sweeping statements and I have no doubt that is how you feel.

      Dave McEwan Hill on an earlier thread clearly feels the same as you do as he stated:

      “Whoever,for instance,checks the veracity of the signature on the application and signature on the actual vote has almost total power over the ballot.
      If you control all elements of the process you control the result.”

      I was just one of the many Yes supporters representing Wings Over Scotland at postal opening votes all over Scotland. I was therefore, as far as Dave is concerned, had almost “total control over the ballot”.

      This does appear a bit foolish, if there is a good way of rigging the postal vote it is not when signatures are being verified.

      I also suggested yesterday regarding the main vote at the polling booths, that I believe there is merit in counting the votes at the polling station at soon as the ballot closes. Under the watchful eye of those observers entitled to be there that represent all sides of course.

      The result for each polling station could be recorded and double checked at the main count.

      Hopefully manandboy you might consider volunteering for May 2015 just so as you can witness what is going on. If you see anything untoward then hopefully you will expose it at the time and let the rest of us know.

      Until absolute proof of dodgy dealings are revealed then we are wasting our time in the past rather than looking forward to the next stage. The referendum is over. We have a General Election to win in Scotland, it’s best we focus our energies on GE 2015.

    108. Husker says:

      I had met a friend I hadn’t seen for a while and the conversation eventually come to how I had voted in the referendum.

      He voted no and like previous discussions, shall we say he got a bit excited and I couldn’t get a word in edgeways. I had just let him rant on from what he read from the Daily Record and I managed to change the subject.

      The problem is that he’s like me and like the majority of us who are working class/lower middle middle class and if there is a Tory/UKIP coalition, an will be be affected in many ways by their austerity policies. However, he can’t see past this SNP/Labour induced tribalism to even acknowledge it.

      It’s the first time I have experienced this sort of mentality as most of the people I know who voted no never really said anything about it. I’m not sure how you can get through to these sort of people other than for them to experience a right dose of Tory/UKIP austerity to bring them to their senses.

    109. heextracker says:

      He’s like a young Bob Marley, same goose bumps when you hear Redemption Song. What fresh hell next from our friends in the South.

    110. Alex Clark says:

      Independence Live now broadcasting from Penilee Communitte Centre Glasgow with Darren Carnagie.

      http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/PenileePublicEvent

    111. Stoker says:

      K1 says:
      20 October, 2014 at 6:10 pm
      P.S. Stoker,
      You don’t have to click on the article to archive it. Right click on link, choose ‘copy link location’, open http://archive.today/. Make sure cursor is in the red bordered area, right click ‘paste’. Then click ‘submit url’.
      (you may already know all this, but for the sake of those that don’t…
      __________________________

      Thanks for all that and no i didn’t know, that’s why i asked.

      Going back to your previous advice, re publishers changing
      articles at a later date – Yes, and the hootsmin was – maybe
      still is – extremely bad for it.

      I’m not so sure about clicking on archived articles not giving
      them site hits, though. I went to have a look at your archived
      hootsmin article and discovered 2 things which lead me to think
      they still gain site hits if:

      (1)-You attempt to click on any of the replies to a comment it
      looks like it takes you back to the original site?
      (2)-You attempt to rate (thumbs up/down) any of the comments it
      looks like it takes you back to the original site?

      Might be wrong about this but maybe you can check it out?

    112. X_Sticks says:

      Haha Beat you Alex 😉

    113. Husker says:

      Another thing.

      Is it just me or when these Tory politicians go on about the settled will of the Scottish people have voted no and that those who supported independence should stop campaigning make more people more determined to do otherwise?

      It reeks of these old films where you see these strict teachers chiding the errant child and firmly correcting them on their mistakes.

      As I had mentioned in previous comments, I’ve accepted the referendum result, see myself as moderate and moving onwards to a different conversation in relation to this but do these Tories think we are going to meekly walk into the night?

      It is absolute madness. All they are doing is being recruiting sargents and motivators to keep us who support independence going.

    114. Flower of Scotland says:

      @Alex Clark

      I agree. We all feel we were robbed but we really do have to stop going on about vote rigging. It’s a waste of energy, better employed in thinking about what we can do for the GE next year.

    115. Robert Peffers says:

      @James123 says:20 October, 2014 at 3:33 pm:

      “This is what he wanted to say to Nicola Sturgeon:
      “You’ve got it in for Britain, …”

      These idiots need remedial classes in English language. Britain is an archipelago and all the eight countries within that archipelago are British, not just the four countries of the bipartite United Kingdom. Which United Kingdom is a bipartite union and as such will cease to exist when one member of that union, Scotland, disunites it. You cannot have a union of two Kingdoms when one of those signatory Kingdoms leaves.

    116. ann says:

      Re Yes Alliance.

      I was at a “new SNP members” meeting at the weekend and Yes Alliance was up on the big board, so this seems to indicate what they way forward is.

    117. Juteman says:

      “I was just one of the many Yes supporters representing Wings Over Scotland at postal opening votes all over Scotland. I was therefore, as far as Dave is concerned, had almost “total control over the ballot”.

      Where were the postal votes stored? I don’t doubt that the actual papers counted on the night were correct, but were they the original papers?

      Postal voting must be banned in future.

    118. liz says:

      O/T Not sure if this will work but trying to post a spreadsheet from twitter showing the lack of ambition Lab has for us with their proposals to the Smith Commission

      https://twitter.com/hoppinghaggis/status/524247900017405952

    119. David Agnew says:

      I was prepared to accept britishness as a collective pronoun – but now I see it as an expression of an odious debt we have been shackled with.

    120. yesindyref2 says:

      The thing is that before the by-election, UKIP was still a party that had to to resort to attention-seeking, so the more extreme, the more attention it got. Now it can proceed more quietly, it can distance itself a bit from the more extreme views and people, put together some sort of “decent” manifesto, and increase in the polls – and elections. As far as the media is concerned, it’s the one to watch and will get endless publicity.

      Today’s SNP superpoll of yougov polls of Scotland:
      SNP 40.1% (+20.2%)
      Lab 27.9% (-14.1%)
      Con 17.8% (+1.1%)
      LD 6.2% (-12.7%)
      UKIP 4.1% (+3.4%)
      Green 3.2% (+2.5%)
      Total sample size is: 4,845
      Fieldwork: 21st September – 17th October 2014

      It probably means the trend over that time to UKIP would show a higher UKIP % right now (similarly for SNP), but also that EC needs to be updated with UKIP potential swings. Incidentally, crtice is showing signs on TV of movng closer to speaking the truth about the seats the SNP are likely to take, though he has a fair bit to go yet in shedding his defence of Labour and brushing off the SNP. I’m going to keep watching his blog.

    121. AuldA says:

      Maybe a reggae version?

    122. Husker says:

      bookie from hell @ 20 October, 2014 at 5:08 pm

      I’m only put an occasional line on but I do know that the bookies only put the odds on that will allow them to pay out the least.

      It’s a bit too suspicious about these anonymous large amounts being put on No winning so early on in the campaign and it was a good piece of PR as well as affecting morale on both sides.

      A thought on this. At the next referendum, a kickstarter campaign to can be started in order to put a large amount at the bookers for Yes to win?

      I had read about anonymous stock broker betting £900k on the No to win and it may or not who was responsible for these bets.

      He had mentioned that he used a wealth of data as well as his experience in the stock market to predict that no could win. This involved human behaviour that they are naturally adverse to risk but also IIRC that governments are always predictable as being adverse to risk and would inevitably intervene.

      He may or may not have ‘insider knowledge’ with the suspicion I had mentioned at beginning of this post. I’m of the opinion that he didn’t and he had the experience and instinct to know how individuals and groups, in the form of government would react.

      It goes to show that we held our bottle, the government would inevitably have caved in, acted and negotiated sensibly in the event of a Yes vote.

      It’s good to say in hindsight.

    123. Naina Tal says:

      Bundle of pish. Off key, nae timing, words dinnae scan, dinnae rhyme, inane lyrics about insane policies. Hoo could ennybudy think we should hae something like this?. Ye’d be better wi Sydney Devine singing Tiny Bubbles.

    124. Husker says:

      Re: Yes alliance.

      If a formal Yes alliance can’t be agreed, could there be an informal one where details about which pro-independence party have the best chance of winning in any constituency be given?

    125. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Alex Clark

      The fact that you and very many other entirely honest people were present at the opening of the postal votes in no way compellingly proves that all postal votes were genuine and accurate.
      Did you for instance know that the person whose postal vote you were looking at actually existed?
      A bit extreme perhaps
      Or did they know they had postal voted? Lots of such instances from various elections at which convictions followed
      Nor at that point are you or anybody else in control of the process. That happens much further back in it.
      The system is readily and easily compromised at various stages of the process.
      It is an easy recipe for fraud

      There is however little can be done about it now as you point out

    126. handclapping says:

      @liz
      I noticed the Aggregates Levy on Haggishunters list. It would be nice to have that. There are a lot of potential quarries with quarry permits dating from the 1940s which can’t be withdrawn even though they have never been exercised. It would be nice to be able to tax them into production or abandonment. One of them might be the permit over Gillies Hill at Bannockburn. Its not in the same league as fracking but removal of some of these old permits would remove a lot of planning blight.

    127. Robert Kerr says:

      To be honest I don’t trust the postal voting system.

      I repeat my earlier question.

      If I vote by post can the system confirm to me what my vote was counted as?

      If not then the whole thing is a farce and an insult to democracy.

    128. @Robert Peffers
      What adjective do you use to describe a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
      Cannot be British because that would include the Republic of Ireland .
      Or am I wrong/stupid.

    129. Alex Clark says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill & Juteman

      I am not happy either about how the postal votes and the polling booth votes are tallied. That is one thing the people scrutinising do not get to see.

      Nor do we know where they are stored so their is scope for skulldugerry.

      I believe there should be change in how votes are checked. I don’t think it would be too difficult to establish a method whereby the votes are counted there and then in front of the Independent witnesses. People at the postal vote opening already have to sign a document that they will keep their mouth shut.

      Of course it would give them an idea of how the result might go but why not only open them on the day of the vote and start the count at 10:00pm. It will delay the result but that’s no big deal in my view.

      Same for the polling stations, count them in the stations with the boxes never out the site of the witnesses. Confirm the result at the main count.

      Meantime, we really have to move on. Maybe this is for the next referendum. What’s done is done and it’s highly unlikely we will change anything now. Let’s focus on winning as many seats for SNP in 2015 and give the establishment a bloody nose then.

    130. Stoker says:

      Alex Clark says:
      20 October, 2014 at 6:32 pm
      The referendum is over. We have a General Election to win in Scotland, it’s best we focus our energies on GE 2015.
      ______________________

      I agree, Alex, but i’ve had 2 issues niggling away at me
      constantly ever since the result.

      (1)-For a while now there has been allegations of vans
      turning up to counts with unmarked boxes full of votes.
      The boxes not being clearly mark with their place of origin
      and just being held over with no formal process for accepting
      them, ie; no signatures etc being taken.
      I believe these accusations are suppose to have stemmed from a
      foreign (Russian?) observer, or someone similar?

      (2)-I moved to my new address earlier in the year. First thing
      i did was contact my local electoral office, by phone, and gave
      them all my change of address details etc. I also informed them
      that i wanted to set up a postal vote. No problem. I received all the appropriate forms just a couple of days later, completed
      and returned them the same day. Some weeks later (just 6 days before the big day) a polling card drops through the door for me. It was a white card, not the creamy/yellow postal vote one.
      It was only then that i realised that i hadn’t received the postal vote, despite completing the necessary form and returning
      it with the change of address details. I immediately phoned my
      local electoral office and after explaining everything i demanded to know why i had received a polling card and not a postal vote, as clearly requested. After explaining this whole situation to umpteen people i eventually got to speak to someone
      at the top of the tree. She was lost for answers and could only
      stick to the bog-standard apology because she “couldn’t explain”
      what had happened. I eventually slammed the phone down to stop
      myself from blowing a fuse. At that point it was by now too late
      to do anything about a postal vote so they sent me a fresh application form several days after the referendum.
      I often wonder if someone else used that postal vote and how
      many others experienced something similar?

    131. Quentin Quale says:

      Voting systems – Brazil has an electronic voting system, where machines show a photo and the name of the candidate to allow accurate identification of candidate being chosen. There is currently talk of updating this system to allow on-screen fingerprint recognition to allow voter identity and reinforce election security.
      Probably a wee bit 21st century and unlikely to catch on here. Nothing like putting a bit of paper wi’ a cross on it into a box.

    132. K1 says:

      Aye Stoker, it’s true if you click to up/down vote or the likes, it will take you back to the article and at that point, yes you are adding to thier readership numbers. It’s entirely people’s choice in this regard.

      I think the point, for the purposes of sharing articles from msm etc, is to reduce thier viewing numbers; a kind of non participative approach. As wings has a high readership, this could have a significant effect, the more of us that archive our links, the more the practice becomes ‘normal’. The less the digital readership figures stack up for the msm.

      If one copy is read by 50 people, then that’s 49 less than they would otherwise have. Still up to each person to decide on the merits of this though… 🙂

    133. handclapping says:

      @Robert Kerr
      Are you sure you want a postal voting system that can confirm what your vote was? Your employer might be interested and how would you ensure it could keep that information from him or your nosy neighbours, the housing, etc.?

    134. handclapping says:

      @Scot Finlayson
      You don’t; you’re a subject not a citizen.
      One of the advantages of iScotland would have been that it was the other way round

    135. Humpty Broon sat on Hadrian’s Wall
      Along came Indy who caused him to fall
      All the Queen’s horses and all the Queen’s men
      Couldn’t put UK ‘together’ again

    136. Stoker says:

      K1 says:
      20 October, 2014 at 8:06 pm
      Aye Stoker, it’s true if you click to up/down vote or the likes, it will take you back to the article and at that point, yes you are adding to thier readership numbers. It’s entirely people’s choice in this regard.
      I think the point, for the purposes of sharing articles from msm etc, is to reduce thier viewing numbers; a kind of non participative approach. As wings has a high readership, this could have a significant effect, the more of us that archive our links, the more the practice becomes ‘normal’. The less the digital readership figures stack up for the msm.
      If one copy is read by 50 people, then that’s 49 less than they would otherwise have. Still up to each person to decide on the merits of this though… 🙂
      _____________________________

      So its safe to view archived articles, just don’t participate.
      Cheers, mate, and thanks for that clarification.
      😉

    137. caledonia says:

      @ Dr JM Mackintosh at 1.09pm if it takes only 28000 to get into the top 10 then surly the snp could come up with something

      would be worth it just to see what the bbc would do

    138. Morag says:

      Has anyone who continues to talk about the postal vote being rigged even bothered to read the article published by Lawyers for Yes, which explains how it can be seen from the actual numbers that this didn’t happen?

    139. Bob Sinclair says:

      A few weeks ago a thread was totally trashed by people banging on about ‘rigging’ of the referendum. Let’s not let that happen again folks.

      The only organised rigging which verifiably took place was rigging of the media. That is where to focus.

      This whole conspiracy theory is really getting old. I’m at the point where I’m spending time removing conspiracy nuts from my Facebook ‘friends’. It’s a pointless diversion. Move on.

    140. yesindyref2 says:

      Husker
      Patrick Harvie has indicated (Herald) that he might not co-operate with a YES alliance and I agree with you. Whatever the party says. I suspect activists on the ground, particularly new members, will do their own assessment which isn’t rocket science, and act accordingly “if you’re not going to vote SNP, then go for SSP / Green”.

    141. A.N.Surgent says:

      @caledonia
      You mean it would be blacked out like the Pistols no.1. That would be funny.

    142. HandandShrimp says:

      Just listened to that

      *coughs*

      *shuffles away quietly muttering FFS!*

    143. Cadogan Enright says:

      agree with Bob Sinclair – move onto aiming to win 59 seats in May

      regarding @Robert Peffers What adjective do you use to describe a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Cannot be British because that would include the Republic of Ireland
      1. Britain has ‘subjects’, not citizens
      2. Ireland has citizens
      3. The 1998 British/Irish peace agreement (Good Friday to the censors) gave people in Northern Ireland a choice between being a British Subject, or and Irish Citizen – theoretically both are supposed to have ‘parity of esteem’, but we are still waiting.
      4. Britain has agreed that where the choice of people at elections appear to warrant a referendum on joining the republic, one will be held and British Government will remain neutral (?!) and a referendum will be held every 7 years thereafter.

    144. @handclapping
      We would still be subjects of the Monarchy.

    145. I am not so trusting of Patrick Harvie. Don’t ask me why, but I don’t trust him. Not just happened this I thought of this for awhile.

    146. Morag says:

      I kind of agree with you there. He spoke well during the independence campaign, but my concern is that I don’t think he’s a team player. If he had the choice between something that was good for the Green party or something that would move us closer to independence, I think he’d go for the former.

    147. @Cadogan Enright
      So why do we have a `Citizens Advice Scotland` or this is from GOV.UK `You’ll be invited to book a place at a citizenship ceremony if your application is successful and you’re over 18.`
      Anyhoo all I want to know is , is it technically correct that a citizen of uk&ni is called British.
      It is just semantics but I would like to know for definate

    148. yesindyref2 says:

      James / Morag
      I agree, sadly. One of the best characters during the ref, so it’s a shame.

    149. Stoker says:

      Quentin Quale says:
      20 October, 2014 at 8:04 pm
      Voting systems – Brazil has an electronic voting system, where machines show a photo and the name of the candidate to allow accurate identification of candidate being chosen. There is currently talk of updating this system to allow on-screen fingerprint recognition to allow voter identity and reinforce election security.
      ______________________

      I quite like this idea, or something similar.
      The system we currently have is antiquated and
      we desperately need to move into the present.
      I would go one further and have the machines
      connected to some form of digital display which
      only the voter and officials can see. That way
      the voter actually gets to see his/her vote
      register. The technology and brains already exist.
      And it could probably be done for a fraction of
      current costs, (after initial set-up of ID system etc).

    150. liz says:

      @handclapping – I have to admit I have never heard of the aggregates levy is, but both the SNP and greens have requested it.

      @James Caithness – no I’m not too keen on Patrick Harvie either, he is very keen to push the Greens, which is fair enough, but he does not seem to be very supportive of the other Yes groups.

      He was pushing for the Greens to be included in the leaders debates, cos they have candidates UK wide, whilst failing to mention that the Scottish greens are a separate party and no mention of including Nicola

    151. @Morag
      It would be helpful if you could supply a link to the lawyers for Yes article .
      Thanks.

    152. Morag says:

      I can’t help feeling that if we had an electronic voting system, the same people shouting about vote-rigging at the moment would be shouting about hacking and computer fraud.

    153. Betty Boop says:

      On the subject of voting and voter registration, The Electoral Commission is proposing a changed to the Code of Conduct for Campaigners which would restrict the handling of voter registration forms.

      Campaigners (particularly RIC) in the run-up to the referendum registered thousands to vote, many for the first time, and contributed to the massive turnout.

      This link: http://bit.ly/1Fpxpca

      provides a template, which can be personalised, for objection to this change. Submissions objecting to the changes should be with the Electoral Commission by Sunday, 26 October. Email objections to:

      codeofconduct [at] electoralcommission [dot] org [dot] uk

    154. Morag says:

      Scot, here you go.

      http://www.lawyersforyes.org/2014/10/05/jonathan-mitchell-the-suggested-grounds-for-judicial-review-of-the-referendum/

      I posted it multiple times in previous threads, but lost the tab yesterday when my computer did a restart. Found it again.

    155. Robert Kerr says:

      @handclapping 8.09

      Do you honestly think your vote is secret?

      It is only secret in the booth at the polling station. Your name on the voter roll has the voting card number added to it. The information is retrievable.

      I’m off to bed now.

    156. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @ James Caithness

      Same here re Patrick Harvie.

      Something in my waters says he would sell out for a undefined “federation” in preference to independence.

      The Greens have form in ferkin up budgets over undeliverable demands and took forever to come out for Yes. At one point I thought the might go neutral but then again it may be that they are top heavy in democracy and needed to let their processes work through.

    157. Robert Peffers says:

      @Martin says: 20 October, 2014 at 5:26 pm:

      “Aye, but it’s quite catchy”

      Aye! So is Ebola Virus but you don’t want yon in yer lug either.

    158. Swami Backverandah says:

      Farage is showing his unsavoury hand.
      He’s wooed the Far Right in the Euro Parliament in order to shore up his Freedom and Direct Democracy group.
      The Polish far right members have been censured previously for racist comments, and they are distinctly misogynistic as well.
      Farage shows UKIP have no moral integrity when it comes to gaining a paltry few pieces of silver.

    159. Kenny says:

      Today I was imagining living in a country which had withdrawn from the European Union. It would be a complete nightmare, living in an isolated Britain basking in “splendid isolation” as if the year was 1800, cut off from all the other European nations to which we aspire.

      No Council of Europe, no recourse to the Strasbourg Courts. Scotland has always felt itself part of Europe. Our legal system is totally unlike England’s, it has much that is similar to the continental system.

      When people think of the 18th century and the Enlightenment, one of the greatest periods of thought in the history of our planet, rivalled only by Ancient Athens, they tend to think of the French philosophers. But Denis Diderot actually said back in the day: “For our ideas of civilisation we go to Scotland.”

      This is not an attempt to say that Scotland was some sort of intellectual superpower (although there is a case for this taking even David Hume alone). But it shows how Scotland was always an intrinsic part of Europe. Heavens, our last two independent monarchs were French princesses!

      I believe that the Westminster Tory parties do not really want to leave Europe. It is too much of a gravy train for the likes of Cameron and Clegg. Broon probably dreams at night that he is EU president, asked by the people of Europe on their knees to also be finance minister, so he can lead the whole continent to a golden age of prudence, wealth and no more boom and bust…

      But I think the Westminster Tories may well agree to an EU referendum knowing that a Scottish vote might sway the balance to “stay” — and then use this to stir up more anti-Scottish feeling in SE England. That is their way: set the people against each other, anything to draw attention away from their own incompetence, corruption and the complete bankruptcy of the neo-liberal economic system…

      What is wrong with England? How can anyone possibly contemplate UKIP? In the third millennium AD?!? Personally, I believe UKIP is an ersatz party for the working class, those who votes for Maggie in the 1980s but would be turned off by poshoes Gideon, Dave and Boris…

      Come on, Yorkshire, Cumbria, Liverpool, Sheffield, Devon, Cornwall! Where are your own left of centre parties against the bedroom tax, nuclear weapons, foreign wars, the Bullingdon Club, Eton cabinet, sanctioning of the poor, ATOS, privatisation of everything that moves?!? Wake up, England, be a nation again!

      What I find most disgusting AND encouraging is watching the daily coverage of Darren Carnegie’s Occupy George Square on Livestream. He has children from primary school coming up to him, making banners and talking about how imperative it is to end poverty. Our primary-school children are more clued-up than the whole of the disgusting Houses of Parliament in Westminster!!!

    160. Stoker says:

      Betty Boop says:
      20 October, 2014 at 9:42 pm
      On the subject of voting and voter registration, The Electoral Commission is proposing a changed to the Code of Conduct for Campaigners…
      _____________________

      Betty, where are you getting that info from?
      I’d like to read more about it.

    161. Quentin Quale says:

      Are there not more obvious characters to go after than Patrick Harvie who, along with the Green Party, actually vociferously campaigned alongside many pushing for Yes? So unlike Morag and others I would say he proved himself to be a pretty good team player when a cohesive Yes team was needed. The fact he is now pushing a Green agenda shouldn’t be too much of a concern – as long as he and the Greens are willing to continue fighting for independence as this momentum continues.

    162. Cadogan Enright says:

      @ Finlayson says:
      20 October, 2014 at 9:20 pm
      @Cadogan Enright
      Anyhoo all I want to know is , is it technically correct that a citizen of uk&ni is called British.
      Yes, British – see official website https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen/check-if-you-can-apply

      But, apparently you must speak English, annoyingly to Gaelic speakers like me – Welsh and Gaelic speakers need not apply – only English counts – this offends several international treaties – and motivates me to wave them goodbye soonest

    163. Betty Boop says:

      @ Stoker, 10:09

      http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/175031/Code-of-conduct-for-campaigners-REVISIONS-FOR-2015.pdf

      Page 4, under Scope of Consultation, para 1.5

      Proposals from the Electoral Commission

    164. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alex Clark says: 20 October, 2014 at 6:32 pm:

      ”This does appear a bit foolish, if there is a good way of rigging the postal vote it is not when signatures are being verified.

      Oh! Come on, Alex, there are large audiences sitting through performances of master Illusionists who witness such things as large living Elephants disapearing before their very eyes. The only reason they know it is an illusion is because they are told it is by the illusionist.

    165. Grouse Beater says:

      Morag: I can’t help feeling that if we had an electronic voting system, the same people shouting about vote-rigging at the moment would be shouting about hacking and computer fraud.

      I can’t help feeling that if the banks had an electronic interest calculation system, the same people shouting about prime mortgage-rigging at the moment would be shouting about hacking and computer fraud….. wait! Hold on!

      Libor!!!

      Oh, crap.

    166. Valerie says:

      Interesting reading people’s take on Patrick Harvie. I enjoyed watching him during the referendum, but also noted he wouldn’t commit to joining in with a pro indy alliance for the GE, and I think a LOT of their new members are going to be pissed about that, because they should not be in any doubt that the referendum must be the issue that prompted their huge increase. But then, folk will just leave the party I suppose and move over to SNP or SSP.

      The Green party come in for a bit of a rough time in Brighton, where they hold power, but a lot of what I read seems to indicate some inexperience of party politics.

      On UKIP, I follow a Yorkshire man’s very good political blog – he is far left. He does good exposes of the govt failings/policies etc., and you would not believe the number of kippers that show up every time he runs a piece on them – its always hand to hand combat on the threads.

      UKIP are insidious and are exploiting that group who always respond to the blame culture for the country’s failings. Its very scary they have so many supporters south of the Board, and we cannot underestimate what they will do here, because they will put candidates up.

    167. Defo says:

      It’s only a larf, innit ? (haven’t watched, only read)

      But WHY?
      It’s hardly likely this is a fundraising motivated move, which leads one to believe that this establishment backed outfit are trying to consolidate ‘their’ vote after the multi-coloured tory side’s of the business’ recent judders towards the Ukip inclined voter. This (do I have to watch it ?) is obvs targeted at the working class element of kipperites.

      In all reality, the best Fraj can hope for is a couple of cabinet posts. More likely the kipper’s end up with a handful of seats, & a lingering death, once Ukips purpose is fulfilled. Purpose being, shift the psyche of their Great Britain to the right, and deflect genuine, as well as manufactured angst amongst the populace away from the results of elites corporate, globalist agenda. For the elite, wages NEED to be driven down, and they NEED for the ‘blame’ to be put elsewhere.

      Just like they NEED to stifle any silly wee nation’s hope’s of changing the rules of the great game.

      Bacofoil at the ready…

      I tend to think the fixing was mostly confined to the media, with a wee touch of Slabbing faves, like stormtrooping old people’s homes, ghost voters , and with a heavy dollop of establishment pressure brought to bear, but…
      What if those who won’t accept there was no wide scale fraud committed are right?

      Then, the Establishment NEEDS to have people who will shout them down, to the point of humiliation (divide & rule), and keep them doing it until the noise dies down.
      Exactly what real harm are the ‘deniers’ doing ?

      Leave them be, they’re still on our side.
      And, what if they’re right 😉

    168. yesindyref2 says:

      Quentin Quale
      I expect the media is trying to split the Indy movement playing one off against the other, but it’s sensible I think to keep a close watch.

      Their Smith submission was an interesting one, some very good points, the best of the lot for some things, but at times a bit wishy-washy with what they’d accept. Perhaps too close to a compromise for negotiation from the pathetic Labour and Tory starting points. That’s what made me raise an eyebrow. Perhaps it’s just a little naive.

      http://www.smith-commission.scot/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Scottish-Green-Party-submission.pdf

    169. Cadogan Enright says:

      If the SNP offer to continue the YES Alliance (as seems likely) and offer to divvy up the 59 seats – then Patrick Harvie will have to agree, as his own supporters (including me) will welcome the SNP good faith and campaign for them and any agreed Socialist candidates in whatever constituency we end up in.

      The only loser for turning down a clear run for several Alliance MP seats would be the Greens https://www.facebook.com/target59?fref=ts

    170. Stoker says:

      Les Wilson says:
      20 October, 2014 at 2:25 pm
      James Caithness says:

      Well, your clip has been sorted by GCHQ or friends.
      No longer available.

      This has happened to many clips that people put on, somewhere a little Westminster geek is sitting at a desk and having them deleted as quick as they are put on.
      _______________________

      Beware the PRISM Surveillance Program
      😉 lol
      _______________________

      Thanks for that, Betty, @ 10.18pm

    171. Swami Backverandah says:

      o/t (scroll on by)
      testing, thought that my last post appeared without delay.
      checking 10.39

    172. Michael McCabe says:

      This is my idea for getting Independence. Forget Postal Voting. If you are Voting Yes and we get another Referendum ? Apply for a Proxy Vote and make Nicola Sturgeon your Proxy. No chance of Fraud there and you know your Yes Vote is safe with Nicola. Job Done. Aye till I die

    173. Kenny says:

      I will go against the grain and say that I think the Greens did far more than could really be expected of such a party in supporting Scottish independence. It even surprised me a little. Do not forget, they are the Green Party in Scotland, their priorities are *green* policies above all.

      I would honestly expect the Greens to support some sort of wishy-washy “internationalism”. I have a lot of respect for them and would vote Green if I were in England.

      I watched a BBC interview with Patrick Harvie about indy. He correctly pointed out that the Greens are actually in opposition to the SNP government in Scotland. The interviewer could not get her ahead around this point. That a party other than the devil’s spawn (SNP) would actually dare to support independence!

      Harvie went on to say that the Greens want nuclear weapons banned. The presenter completely gagged; you would think he had said: we want to kill all the English firstborn. She immediately shut him up and I knew that such words are simply blasphemy on the BBC. Jimmy Savile is fine, but any talk of banning nuclear weapons must never be allowed on our sacred airwaves…

      I think Patrick Harvie is a principled politician and another example of how many talented and diverse members we have in Holyrood. I am very pleased that the Greens have a better presence in Scotland than in the whole UK. It shows how vibrant our Scottish democracy and voting system is. The Greens are not obliged to support indy and I myself am grateful for what support they have already given.

    174. Tackety Beets says:

      Ref Greens & P. Harvie .

      PH played a good game in 2007 holding J Swinney to ransome up to the last minute over budget for ” Green ” matters . I think PH held out for a full £100k which meant JS had to juggle the budget very last minute .
      I’m not aware of any fall out , only respect between the parties SNP & Greens .
      No doubt some of the ” heavy weights” here will be able to impart more detail ( I’m going from memory only)
      It might well have been helpful if we had more PH on TV on the run up to Ref vote.

      @ Kenny , last para

      Yes , the Prim Sc aged children did engage and learn a bit about politics and many woke up early on 19th Sept very disappointed !
      I can only hope it opened their minds to engage as they get older .

    175. Alex Clark says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Seriously, if you are attempting any kind of of fraud with the postal votes scrutinising the signatures and comparing them with the applications is not the time to do it.

      Robert, I’d suggest that you really need to get along to a postal vote opening the next opportunity you have got so as you can witness the process for yourself.

      For one, the majority of the comparison between the signature on the vote and application is done by computer after scanning.

      Computers as far as I know don’t recognise Elephants or Derren Brown.

      It is only those where there is doubt as to the comparison that are put aside for humans to compare, that may have amounted to around 2% of all postal votes.

      You have to remember that until recently even this option would not have been available. What I can also tell you is that of the voting applications (not votes, you never see those) I personally witnessed the vast majority were from those aged over 55, the oldest having been born in 1911 was 103 years old. It does not surprise me in the slightest that the postal vote appears to have been overwhelming NO.

      You though Robert are suggesting that all the Council employees that were present and volunteers, which exceeded 30 in number and the independent witnesses, a minimum of 6 when I was present were somehow “fooled” by a stage act controlled by some strange and fantastic magician (George Osborne maybe?).

      Robert, behave. I’m as grown up as you, though it is you that is fantasising.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      From SNP (sorry, I’m just fascinated to see how fast and postitively it’s all moving):

      The YouGov poll shows distrust of the Westminster leaders is high across the UK – but significantly higher in Scotland. David Cameron’s trust ratings in Scotland stand at -47 per cent and Ed Miliband’s stand at -49 per cent – while Nigel Farage is distrusted 81 per cent of people in Scotland with overall trust ratings of -68 per cent.

      In contrast, a recent Panelbase showed strong levels of trust in senior SNP figures – with Alex Salmond having a net trust rating of +18 per cent and Nicola Sturgeon enjoying trust ratings of +21 per cent.

      This follows on from a TNS poll last week showing Nicola Sturgeon as the most trusted politician on more powers for Scotland – compared to just one per cent who trusted Ed Miliband.

    177. Cadogan Enright says:

      @ Kenny
      Totally agree – but they would be even better with 3 MP’s to bolster their finances, their voice and far more likely to achieve their objectives in the resulting Indy Scotland.
      I lost my deposit as a Green WM candidate once. You have to work just as hard as the winner, but you still lose.

      I’d love to see Patrick get in, and then join the SNP in an Irish 1918 style walk-out of Westminster and setting up a Scottish Dail.

    178. muttley79 says:

      I was reading Euan McColm’s article on Sunday earlier today. It is very good, in fact it bang on the money imo. Strange days and times eh…

      http://www.scotsman.com/news/euan-mccolm-think-tank-gives-snp-firepower-1-3577019

    179. Gallowglass says:

      OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SHUT UP ABOUT VOTE RIGGING

    180. castle hills chavie says:

      Folks, some light relief…

      There is some swearing and potential, monitor spraying.

      http://www.bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/

    181. Alex Clark says:

      @Gallowglass

      Your right, sorry. I can only speak for myself but will never discuss vote rigging here again.

    182. Cadogan Enright says:

      @ Gallowglass

      Best way to shut them up is to change the subject and start strategising for 59 seats in May.

      In the YES campaign we were up against 3 Tory parties, 37 papers and the BBC and nearly won by a massive cross-party/no-party on the ground campaign, the like of which has never been seen before.

      Were we to take this campaign against a Tory vote split 3/4 ways by continuing the YES Alliance there wont be a Tory of any colour left in the country. https://www.facebook.com/target59?fref=ts

    183. @Cadogan Enright
      Robert Peffers says.
      `Britain is an archipelago and all the eight countries within that archipelago are British, not just the four countries of the bipartite United Kingdom.`

      A citizen is British not because they are part of UK&NI but because they live on the British Isles.
      The entity UK&NI does not make you British so the adjective describing a citizen of the UK&NI should not be British.

    184. Valerie says:

      Pleased to say that my SNP branch (just joined them) are not letting the grass grow since I attended the meeting last week, and have emailed me to invite me along to a meeting in a car park! We are gathering to split up leafleting. From what I gather this first round is to put applications for party memberships through doors.

      I’ll be wearing comfy footwear on Thursday.

    185. Kenny says:

      @ Cadogan Enright says:
      20 October, 2014 at 10:57 pm
      “I lost my deposit as a Green WM candidate once. You have to work just as hard as the winner, but you still lose.”

      I remember the Greens were polling higher than the Lib Dems at one point in England, but at that same time all you had, day in and day out, on the BBC and in the newspaper was Clegg, Clegg, Clegg. The Greens in England face on a daily basis what we faced during the referendum campaign.

      In countries like Germany, the Greens are on national television every day. They give interviews and their speeches in the Bundestag are televised. Germany is an engaged, all-inclusive society and a strong democracy which is a major factor in their economic stability and well-being.

      I am disgusted that Green candidates lose their deposit in WM elections and UKIP won a bye-election. I sometimes think England is sick beyond saving!

      I do not wish solely for Scottish independence. I also want Scotland to show the way to the other nations of the UK. I dream that the English people will awaken as we have and will one day “rip the chains from the lion” as we want to from the unicorn.

    186. Valerie says:

      Don’t be sad, you Greenies, they have just overtaken the Fib Dems in the polls down South!

    187. crazycat says:

      @ Betty Boop

      Are you submitting an objection to the proposed changes in the code of conduct for campaigners?

      It looks to me as if they prevent all the things I found so outrageous about the Labour Party’s behaviour (“helping” people to fill in their postal votes, taking said votes away for submission, pressing people to apply for postal votes, offering to act as proxies).

      RIC and others could still download application forms and give them out, just not collect the completed forms and send them off. That was something I did a lot of, but we could have coped with telling people to post them themselves – there is mention of EROs giving out freepost envelopes, and I don’t see that the code forbids campaigners from providing envelopes, so long as the voter puts the form inside and sticks it in the post box.

      The last-minute rush might have been difficult to handle under the proposed rules, but it would be better for the ERO staff too if everyone could be encouraged to register well in advance. I’m hoping there won’t be a rush before the 2015 and 2016 elections now that so many more people have been motivated to sign up – it will be getting them to the polls that will require our effort!

    188. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Gallowglass at 11.02

      No.
      Who do you think you are?

    189. Morag says:

      Your name on the voter roll has the voting card number added to it. The information is retrievable.

      That’s the number – that was printed on the backs of the ballot papers. That was written down by the polling clerk when the paper was given to the voter. That the voter later insisted wasn’t there at all….

      Sorry, I’ll get me coat.

    190. Cadogan Enright says:

      @Scot Finlayson
      I’m wondering if you are Trolling “A citizen is British not because they are part of UK&NI but because they live on the British Isles.” Even the Rugby team has moved on from this sort of narcissistic nonsense – they now correctly call themselves “The British and Irish Lions” only the BBC weather forecast is clinging onto the British Isles. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute

      @Robert Peffers
      I don’t make the rules – nor do I agree with them – however if you are from the UK and can’t choose Irish citizenship – then you are a ‘British Subject’. If you don’t like it, then add it to your reasons for going Indy.

    191. Lollysmum says:

      Muttley79
      RE the Scotsman article at 10.58

      Did you get the pages to display properly on that site? Every time I try to access an article their page text jumps to the right then back to the centre of the screen again & just carries on ad infinitum. I’venever had that happen on any website before & of course it makes the articles unreadable.

    192. Morag says:

      Pleased to say that my SNP branch (just joined them) are not letting the grass grow since I attended the meeting last week, and have emailed me to invite me along to a meeting in a car park! We are gathering to split up leafleting. From what I gather this first round is to put applications for party memberships through doors.

      I’ll be wearing comfy footwear on Thursday.

      Selfishly, all this newbie enthusiasm makes me very happy!

      A lot of us did an awful lot of leafleting over the summer. Now some of us are feeling tired and the evenings have been lost to the darkness and still the slave-drivers who call themselves branch organisers want more.

      One of them rang me up at 9.30 on Saturday morning when the rain was battering on the window panes and the wind was whistling down the chimney, going on about another leaflet run. I curled up at the edges.

      All these new, fresh pairs of legs. I love them to bits.

    193. The Morgatron says:

      I think its a hit . That Mike Reid is a wag and a very funny white man., though he should never have left Pat in Eastenders. Now im off to watch my box set of “Love Thy Neighbour” while I organise our next KKK annual meeting. Hes a racist , ignorance is not an excuse , and he knows it.

    194. Betty Boop says:

      @ Stoker, 10:09pm

      Re the Electoral Commission proposals for Change of Conduct for Campaigners.

      Looks as though the date for submissions about the consultation was today, by email, Monday, 20th October.

      Undeterred, I have sent an email to them this evening. It is still Monday!

      Anyone else who would like to respond had better get their skates on. Email: codeofconduct [at] electoralcommission [dot] org [dot] uk

      EC consultation document:
      http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/175031/Code-of-conduct-for-campaigners-REVISIONS-FOR-2015.pdf

    195. jules says:

      Don’t worry about patrick harvie not (in some people’s eyes) being a Team Yes player. The Scottish Greens have just signed up several thousand Yessers as new members, in numbers that swamp the previous membership. And it’s a very democratic party, ie policy on something like a Yes Alliance will be determined by the members.

    196. Macca73 says:

      I think that anyone who voted NO should be locked in a room and played this on repeat until they declare a vote for a party behind Scottish Indy! 🙂

    197. Morag says:

      Jules, that was the thinking in our SNP branch as well. We had Greens in our Yes group, and while they were great, they did say the decision to support Yes had only been ratified as far as the referendum, with the implication being that the referendum would settle the matter anyway. And of course some Green members supported No and the party allowed that. So we did worry that after the referendum the Greens might say OK, the country has spoken, we’re not supporting independence any more.

      But then they suddenly acquired all these new members, all on account of the Greens being a Yes party. And they’re democratic. I think they’re stuck with the policy now.

      I may be being unfair to Patrick Harvie. I heard him speak twice earlier this year and I thought he was very good indeed. I suppose it’s not really right to criticise him for not being as committed to independence as say ALex Salmond. I just tend to assume it should be #1 priority with everyone until it’s achieved!

    198. Luigi says:

      Gallowglass says:
      20 October, 2014 at 11:02 pm

      OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SHUT UP ABOUT VOTE RIGGING

      Aye, it’s getting really tiresome. Poor Morag has been very patient with the conspiracy theorists.

    199. Cadogan Enright says:

      @ Morag and @ Jules – Your analysis is correct and I sincerely hope you prove to be right! Hopefully Harvie is playing ‘hard to get’ to get the best deal possible from the SNP

    200. Cadogan Enright says:

      @ Morag and @ Jules – Your analysis is correct and I sincerely hope you prove to be right! Hopefully Harvie is playing ‘hard to get’ to get the best deal possible from the SNP

    201. liz g says:

      Betty Boop @11.42pm
      I read on Facebook there had been an extension of the date till the 31st
      Can’t do links but it was from an RIC site /avatar or whatever it’s called (showing my age or ignorance here)

    202. Betty Boop says:

      @ Morag, 11:53pm

      Re the Greens and their new members. One of my sons joined the Greens after the Referendum.

      He lives in NE Fife and their meetings are in some remote town (to him) in the middle of Fife. He is going to ask if they wouldn’t mind if he attended meetings of their Dundee branch on account of the fact it is only 4 miles away and would be greener for him to travel there.

      Now isn’t that the sort of member they need as well as being dedicated to indy? 🙂

    203. Husker says:

      Macca73 @ 20 October, 2014 at 11:49 pm

      I’ve written a few posts related to this:

      http://huskerslogbook.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/no-doesnt-mean-no-full-stop/

      Not sure if new members are allowed to post links or the spam filters block them.

    204. Morag says:

      I don’t know how realistic a Yes Alliance actually is. It’s a nice idea but there are a number of practical difficulties. I wouldn’t totally blame the Greens if they declined to stand aside to give the SNP a clear run in 2015 – which is what a Yes Alliance really boils down to.

      Hopefully some compromise can be worked out that gives all parties a fair crack of the whip without artificially restricting voter choice, or allowing Labour to come through the middle by default.

    205. Betty Boop says:

      @ liz, 12:06am, 21/1014

      Betty Boop @11.42pm
      I read on Facebook there had been an extension of the date till the 31st
      Can’t do links but it was from an RIC site /avatar or whatever it’s called (showing my age or ignorance here)

      Thanks Liz.

      What Liz said everyone, re Code of Conduct for Campaigners proposals. 🙂

    206. Morag says:

      Betty, can’t he simply join the Dundee branch and be done with it? I know you can do that in the SNP if you want to. Or at least you used to be able to.

      When I moved back from England, even though SNP HQ had my new address, I had to specifically request to be re-assigned from London to Tweeddale. As far as I know, if I’d asked to join Midlothian instead, on the grounds of that being closer for me, it would have been OK.

    207. Natasha says:

      Hi guys
      I don’t know if anyone saw my post about MPs’ expenses on the IPSA website; I was concerned because different figures were shown depending on which tab you clicked on. Anyway, I sent them an email and got a reply within 24 hours (!!) thanking me for pointing out the discrepancy which they had not noticed (!!!!) and saying that they had already asked their web hosting service (or some other technical term which I can’t recall) to deal with it!!!!!! I was gobsmacked! If only the BBC were as open and transparent (oink, oink, flap, flap).

      I see the Plod has been sneaking around on other threads again in the hope I won’t notice. I’m still here, Plod, and you still haven’t answered my question. In case you’ve forgotten what it was, I’ll repeat it. How would you feel if one of your grandsons starved to death in 21st century Britain because of the UK government’s appalling attitude towards the poor and mentally disabled?

      What was that, Plod? Oh, yes, of course – you aren’t poor, so it doesn’t matter what happens to people who are, and as long as it’s only other people’s grandchildren that are found lying dead weighing just over 5 stone, that’s okay.

    208. Valerie says:

      I take the point about a Yes Alliance being quite hard horse trading on some seats, just hope they can work it out, as it would be great to have a mix of pro indy parties down in WM – it would be a good spread of expertise and talent.

      Although I joined SNP, I joined them because I believe they have the apparatus and some great talent, but I also feel an affection for the other other pro indies!

      I do feel sorry for them down south, the left wing really have little choice, but I always recommend voting Green to them, and big up the Scottish Greens. Good to see they are coming up the polls, even if it is to overtake the zombies of the Fib Dems.

    209. Morag says:

      The trouble is, I don’t think there’s a single seat in Scotland where the Greens could be said to have a better chance of winning than the SNP. Suppose they’re given a token seat or two, with the SNP standing aside there. What happens? Do the SNP activists campaign for the Green, or go off to neighbouring seats to campaign for the SNP there? (Leaving a folder of leaflet delivery routes and a good luck card.)

      What do the Green activists do in all the seats where they won’t be standing? It’s not much of a campaign, for a party that has just quadrupled in size. Will these people be just as happy to campaign for the SNP? Really?

      Even if some sort of deal is struck, will the voters go along with it? Voters often react badly if they feel they’re being manipulated or taken for granted.

      It all requires very careful handling, but I imagine there are some wise heads thinking it all through.

    210. Alex Clark says:

      Regarding a Yes alliance, let’s face it, it really means very little as for as the 2015 GE is concerned. It could only really matter where the SNP stood aside to give a Green or SSP or Solidarity a chance at a seat which they would not expect to win.

      So an alliance in that respect is very unlikely, however if the leaders of the Scottish Greens, SSP and RIC stood up publicly and asked for an SNP vote in 2015 and to help them achieve one. That is something else and could make a difference.

      I cannot argue against that, it makes sense. Something though that not all politicians are blessed with. Pity.

    211. Tam Jardine says:

      Betty Boop

      I am not sure how the EC can improve given that we heard barely a peep out of them during the affront to democracy that was the Independence Referendum.

      They ignored all of the lies and intimidation by Better Together on the doorsteps of pensioners and foreign nationals.

      They ignored the blatant and constant state broadcaster bias.

      They ignored the appalling breach of purdah when the EC question changed before our very eyes from status quo or independence to Devo-max or Independence. Only it didn’t and the people of Scotland were conned.

      Christ – they even sent a leaflet to everyone’ door printing BT’s lies for them at a time when BT would have been unable to deliver to every household- something for which I am still awaiting a response to a long and bad tempered complaint.

      That’s all on the EC so I see no way back for them. If they had a plug I would pull it out.

      Good luck with your submission though – I have just lost a stupendous 5000 word submission to Lord Smith through my inability to copy text on google Chrome so I’m ready to kill either myself or my phone.

    212. manandboy says:

      The detection of crime in the UK is a major industry both for the purposes of Law & Order but also entertainment. The police, detectives, forensics, DNA specialists, you name it, we’re all familiar with it.

      While on TV, umpteen detective mysteries from Hercule Poirot to Sherlock Holmes and many others in between, entertain us enormously. All are very popular.
      The idea of investigation into crimes accidents is accepted by everyone.

      Until we have a Referendum.

      And not just any old Referendum, but one in which the stakes simply could not be higher, particularly for the UK Gov; dangerously deep in debt and at risk
      of losing out on 120 years worth of Scottish oil & gas,
      not to mention limitless renewable energy,
      and substantial whisky revenues.

      A major player in European politics and economics and in London a global center of world finance and currency.
      A Nuclear ally of the United States etc., etc., etc.

      A Referendum which, furthermore, is conducted unfairly to the benefit of the UK Government. One Sunday paper comes over to Yes for a few months, but the entire remaining UK TV, radio & press industry is totally anti-Independence.

      The No campaign conducts a brazen campaign of fear, smear, lies and bribery.

      The elderly are made the number one target of the Government fear tactics with threats to their pensions.

      Immigrants are threatened with deportation if they vote Yes.

      And so much more.

      The entire voting process is administered by mainly unionist local councils and conducted by them.

      The Electoral Board and Electoral Commission are both Unionist.

      The Electoral Board lays out the conditions under which the vote will be conducted and the rules and regulations for all those participating.

      The Chief Counting Officer, the CEO of Falkirk Council, Labour, makes an early decision for the printing of no less than 800,000 extra ballot papers. A figure unheard of in previous votes.
      A warning light appears on the dashboard of democracy but those concerned are branded as conspiracy theorists and therefore nutcases and the matter is closed.

      John McTernan is hired by the UK Gov to head up the No Campaign strategy team. If you want a house burgled, you hire a burglar; you want a referendum result to go your way, you hire John McTernan.

      With this scenario, Sherlock Holmes would have had a field day over three episodes and the nation’s detective story fans would have been in raptures.

      And so the vote takes place and surprisingly, No is announced the winner with a margin of 10%. 1.6 million Yes voters are stunned and shocked at the result and can hardly believe it.

      Time passes and to many many people something doesn’t feel right about the result. Anecdotal evidence raises suspicions of interference. But no substantial firm evidence is available. When did a lack of hard evidence ever stop the intrepid Sherlock. It’s what we love about him!

      Now, with a month gone by, there are still quite a few lone detectives still on the case. But they are being given a hard time as ridicule and contempt is heaped on them, even by their own side. ‘They’re in denial’; ‘it’s time to move on’; these and more calls echo round the blogs.

      Thing is, ‘move along, nothing to see here’ is precisely what is demanded by government when they don’t want their deeds inspected – lest they be unmasked.

      The UK Gov lied to the Scottish people about oil for FORTY years and still they continue to lie about oil and much, much more besides.

      Does anyone really think that fixing a Referendum is beneath the UK Government. They fix everything else, like fixing it so that the wealthy get richer at the expense of the poor.

      Like ‘fixing ‘ the economy with austerity for the majority but rewarding the banksters and their cronies with unimaginable wealth.

      I personally have little time for vote counting theories. But as Michael Portillo said to Andrew Neil, and I’m paraphrasing, ‘a referendum can be fixed’. Sure, I’ve still got a feeling that the referendum was set up to fail the Yes voters but you don’t have to listen to me.

      Why would you when you have someone of the stature of Michael Portillo close by.

      It’s just a pity the Government and the Unionist parties have such a long, long record of lying and thieving.

      If they were honest, then at least we would have a reason to believe them.

    213. ben madigan says:

      @Swami Backverandah at 9.52
      thanks for the info. I have updated my post about Farage’s group in the UK accordingly
      http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/ukips-european-parliament-group-collapses/

    214. Cadogan Enright says:

      @ Morag “It all requires very careful handling, but I imagine there are some wise heads thinking it all through.”

      The prize of going after 59 seats is worth giving Greens and Socialists a clear run. Given that they have 1/10th the strength of the SNP in the polls, that would give 5 of 53 available unionist seats. No point in counting 6 SNP seats already won

      It also lets the Original YES campaigners get back together in their original groups (and from a logistically important point of view – in their own towns and villages) – and I also like the idea of registering candidates not under their party – but under a ‘Yes Alliance’ with the electoral commission

    215. ben madigan says:

      sorry mistake – that should read farage’s group in the EU parliament!

    216. Morag says:

      Yes they “fixed” the referendum, if you want to put it that way. They did it by fear, lies and spin. They used the might of the British state to get their message across and marginalise the Yes message. They terrified a substantial proportion of the voting public, and then in desperation offered (or seemed to offer) the one thing they had previously been adamant that they would not grant.

      I keep reading declarations that “they” are so all-powerful that we don’t need any evidence to know that they tampered with the votes. This is not going to get us anywhere. All the evil will in the world can’t do the impossible. And when I say impossible, I mean tamper with the votes in such a way as to turn a Yes majority into a near-400,000 majority for No and leave absolutely no evidence to show that it was done at all.

    217. Morag says:

      Cadogan, not getting into the nuts and bolts of a Yes Alliance (because I think it’s a lot more complicated than that), but do you seriously think 59 seats is achievable in any possible combination of circumstances?

      Which five seats are the Greens going to win, do you think? How are you going to persuade SNP activists to campaign for a Green candidate there, and not just bugger off next door to campaign for the SNP? Same thing for Green activists in the SNP seats.

      But really, I digress. I just want you to look at some of the Labour majorities, and think about some of the people who vote for them, and consider what’s possible as opposed to what’s desirable.

      Our team has Mundell in our sights, but we know very well that even though the seat is far from the hardest to win, we’ll need a very favourable wind indeed and a strong UKIP challenge to split the Tory vote to have a snowball’s chance in hell.

      I don’t want to be a wet blanket and of course we want to aim high and give it our best shot, but I also worry that we’re heading for another example of a great performance being reported as rubbish as a result of over-optimistic fantasising before the event.

    218. ben madigan says:

      Husker – I had a look at your blog, very nice presentation of your thoughts and ideas

      No one can interact with you by commenting because you wrote”I won’t be opening this blog to comments because I am just posting my thoughts and the purpose of this blog is not to debate them”.

      So i suppose there is some block set up to stop people posting comments. you’ll have to change your blog settings if you would like to hear from other people!

    219. Luigi says:

      There are no obvious seats that the Greens could win in 2015.

      2016 is another matter, however – so perhaps the “horse trading” could be favours returned the following year?

      Makes more sense.

    220. Alex Clark says:

      The point about “moving on” is that there is no alternative other than to wallow in your misery.

      The only way you will prove conclusively that you have won is to keep on fighting and make is so obvious that there can be no dispute. There are other battles to be won, lying down weeping after the first will get you nowhere.

      That’s why we must move on, to dwell on the past is tantamount to admitting defeat. Forever. I will not go there, I intend to take the fight to the establishment in the next General Election.

    221. Luigi says:

      And there’s also the SST. They may be persuaded to support SNP candidates in 2015 in return for help getting a few MSPs back to Holyrood in 2016.

    222. Luigi says:

      SSP not SST – getting late!

    223. Morag says:

      I hope we’ll get an ambitious but realistic list of target seats for next year. We need to know where to concentrate the effort. Lack of targeting was one of the things that did for the SNP in 1992.

      Getting a sufficient number of good candidates is another issue. There’s a finite pool of people who are capable of cutting it in the Westminster bear pit, and who (just as importantly) are prepared to sacrifice a portion of their lives to living and working in London.

      Putting up a lightweight candidate was as far as I can tell the main reason the SNP failed to take Lang’s scalp, again in 1992 I think. A young chap I’ve never heard of since was put up against the Secretary of State for Scotland.

      In many ways this election is looking somewhat like 1992, as regards the run-up (although with the SNP polling considerably better). We need to avoid making the same mistakes.

    224. thoughtsofascot says:

      Oh man…this some is UKIP in a nutshell. You just know that the douchebag singing performed this in full blackface. Racists.

    225. thoughtsofascot says:

      song not some*

    226. Morag says:

      I’m not sure about the idea of trading favours in 2015 for favours in 2016. The list vote in the latter system makes it all a bit unnecessary and arguably futile. And again I worry that voters won’t react well to what could be seen as manipulation, and taking them for granted.

      I’m really glad that I don’t have to figure out the best way forward in all this. I’ll be really interested to see what gets worked out eventually.

    227. StevieMcB says:

      Winston McKenzie ukip, on newsnight, dearie me.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lep6XIVPevk

    228. Valerie says:

      Yes, the Winston McKenzie thing was all a bit of an embarrassment on Newsnight.

      UKIP had an Asian guy left their party due to racist comments and emails, and when it was reported on the Hope not Hate page, folk were saying – what did he expect etc.

      They really are a party of nasties

    229. liz g says:

      Moral@1.13am
      RE cutting it in the “Bear Pit” of Westminster
      If Margrit “ahm wan ay ra pepel”. Currin kin dae it even I could

    230. liz g says:

      Sorry ment Morag

    231. Morag says:

      😀

    232. Piemonteis says:

      If we’re talking about Green seats for 2015, surely it’s worth looking at their List vote in 2011, which probably indicates which constituency seats they’ll be targeting in 2016 as well.

      The seats they got over 2,000 votes are (in order from most to least votes):
      Edinburgh Southern, Edinburgh Central, Glasgow Kelvin, Edinburgh North & Leith, Edinburgh Eastern, North East Fife and Skye Lochaber and Badenoch.

      The constituency boundaries don’t help them in Central Edinburgh or the West End. Also, considering most of their membership seems to be Edinburgh and Glasgow based, that should probably be their focus.

      If you’re talking six seats, you’d probably say:
      Edinburgh Eastern (they’ve picked their candidate there anyway)
      Glasgow North (West End, Universities, Maryhill – big Yes vote)
      Edinburgh Southern (Councillors and hard for SNP to win)
      Edinburgh North & Leith (Councillors and hard for SNP to win)
      Midlothian (Currently selecting candidate, Green Councillor, Split constituencies at Holyrood so can’t tell 2011 vote)
      Stirling (Green councillor, believe they’re well organized there)

      From the places they picked up votes in 2011, Ross, Skye and Lochaber would give them no chance, but the SNP might want them to have it because they won’t come close anyway. And I think North East Fife might have quite a low Green limit, since I can’t see anyone but students being greatly attracted, whereas SNP are more likely to win the Liberal vote.

      As for the SSP, their best chance has to be West Dunbartonshire, where they have a councillor. They only won 500 votes there in 2011, but that was more than double anywhere else.

      The only problem for the SNP is that they hold all the potential Green seats mentioned above at Holyrood level, and they might not want to give the Greens a head start towards 2016.

    233. Morag says:

      It’s going to be a very hard sell to persuade the SNP to stand aside in any of these seats for 2015, when the Green support is as low as that. Realistically, even though they might be seen as the best seats for the Greens, the SNP still has a far better chance in all of them. Double for the SSP.

      Indeed, if the objective is to win as many seats as possible, the whole thing is downright perverse. Do we want tokenism, or do we actually want to win?

      And that’s even before you factor in that the SNP constitution binds the party to fielding a candidate in every seat in Scotland. That would have to be overturned before any thought of standing down could be entertained. So it’s not that simple.

    234. Tam Jardine says:

      Piemonteis

      “Ross, Skye and Lochaber would give them no chance, but the SNP might want them to have it because they won’t come close anyway”

      If Charles Kennedy is still standing I wouldn’t be so sure. Aside from the lib dem vote collapsing in the polls, I think he has some serious personal issues to overcome. That braw big majority will be at least vastly diminished I am confident.

    235. Rock says:

      From the previous thread,

      Morag,

      “There is absolutely no evidence such a thing happened, and no conceivable way as far as I can see for it to have happened without leaving any evidence.”

      The British establishment would certainly not leave any evidence.

      However well educated you may be, I am certain that you don’t have even a fraction of the ability and deviousness required to “see” or understand how the black arts department of the British establishment works.

      If people could “see” how they operate, they would have gone out of business a long time ago and Scotland would be flourishing as a Scandinavian type social democracy.

      Just because we can’t “see” it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. All common sense suggests that they were well prepared to rig the vote if necessary.

      And it did become necessary probably when the survey they hid from us showed that they were going to be defeated.

    236. Alex Clark says:

      @Rock

      Interesting in your choice of quote which is out of context. Morag posted on that thread another 6 times yet you choose one wee juicy papagraph?

      If you really had something to show about what Morag said then maybe you should tell the whole story and quote her last post.

      Your at it, and it’s obvious to me at least. Your an embarrassment to your “profession” hahaha.

      Morag says:
      20 October, 2014 at 11:45 pm
      I know, I know. But the alternative is that the wild conspiracy allegations are allowed free rein with no contradiction or alternative point of view being offered.

      I do worry about it. First that it encourages a belief that Yes really did win the popular vote, which could hinder addressing why we didn’t. And second, that it encourages a permanent sense of futility – after all, if we won and “they” falsified the vote, what’s the point in trying again because they’ll only do it again. After all, they’re all-powerful and capable of anything.

      We were beaten by a ruthless, lying, shameless campaign with the entire might of both the British state and the mainstream media behind it. And even so we came damn close.

      We need to look at what we can do to circumvent these power and media mind-games, and spread the vision out to more people next time. Continually obsessing about how to prevent small-scale postal vote fiddling isn’t the answer.

    237. Onwards says:

      @Morag

      I don’t know how realistic a Yes Alliance actually is. It’s a nice idea but there are a number of practical difficulties. I wouldn’t totally blame the Greens if they declined to stand aside to give the SNP a clear run in 2015 – which is what a Yes Alliance really boils down to.

      It would still be nice to see the words ‘YES’ or ‘YES ALLIANCE’ on the ballot paper somewhere.

      Perhaps the SNP logo could be adapted to get a ‘YES’ in there also ?

      The YES brand has wider support than the SNP alone.
      It could be marketed as a general ‘YES for more powers’.

      For general elections, the candidates name is highlighted, and it looks like the logo is the quickest way to scan the ballot paper and quickly identify parties.

      2010 Ballot Paper Example

      If Greens don’t withdraw from seats, then the new members have a decision to make.. if the majority are Yes supporters.

      It would be frustrating as hell to see the SNP lose any seats by a couple of hundred green votes, when realistically the Greens have little chance of winning any FPTP seats.

      A good number of SNP MP’s could actually make a real difference if they held the balance of power, and is the first chance we have at progressing the agenda for more powers.
      Which benefits the Greens also as they have more influence at Holyrood.

      I reckon many of the new members would still vote SNP tactically, even without a formal alliance. But it would be good to see some agreement worked out where they get a clear run at a couple of seats, with SNP support.

    238. Alex Clark says:

      @Onwards

      An agreement would be nice, but if it doesn’t happen I reckon all those Greens and SSp supporters will be voting tactically.

      That is voting SNP so don’t sweat it, we know what is required to win.

    239. Ken500 says:

      Barroso is an idiot. He doesn’t know the difference between the UK Union and the EU Union. It really is pathetic. Westminster has been secretly taking £Billions out of Scotland for years and wasting it on illegal wars etc (facilitated by Barroso).

      The UK Union takes £10Billion+ out of Scotland 1/6 of it’s revenues.eg Total taxes raise in Scotland £60Billion. Scotland gets back £45Billion in block grant (£30Billion + £15Billion Pensions/welfare benefits) Total taxes raised in the rest of the UK £54Billion. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £100Billion more. (£700Billion)

      The EU gets a contribution 15Billion euros, (1/100 of revenues) which comes back in CAP payment shared Defences etc. The EU Union and UK Union are totally different. Scotland’s economy has been totally mismanaged for years by Westminster.

      Scotland was conned. Vote SNP. There will be no Unionist politicians to consult. Westminster
      politicians are crooks. Most of them should be in jail.

    240. Ken500 says:

      Scotland could have had a £220Billion Oil Fund plus the £Billions Thatcher wasted cancelling a pipe line and wasting £Billions of Gas. The Gas was burnt off. One of her Ministers resigned because of it. The revenues was spent in illegal wars, Trident etc. Thatcher spent it on London S/E building up Canary Wharf, Tilbury Docks etc and the Tory bankers who fund the Tory Party. Deregulating banking and demutualising the Building Societies owned by their members. Privatising Utilities now owned by foreign Nationalised companies. Closing down every manufacturing facilities in Scotland. Writing ‘this must be kept ‘secret’ on official documents.

      The Unionists in Westminster are back at it again. Increasing Oil tax revenues 11% (£2Billion) in the 2011 Budget, now up to 90%. Scotland has lost £4Billion a year. Foreign Multinationals tax evade through the City of London. Cutting the Scottish Block Grant £1.3Billion a year and cutting the tax for the wealthiest and starving the vulnerable. 5 People in the UK own more than 1/5 (20%) of the population.

      Vote SNP and there will be no Unionist politicians to consult. Westminster are just a bunch of crooks. Every time they sell off assets their associates make £Millions Most of them should be in jail.

      Scotland was conned.

    241. Ken500 says:

      Some Academics are getting £Millions in public money Grants etc (BT) to canvass against Scotland’s interest. Lining their pickets while the vulnerable starve. They are amoral. The Universities are awash with cash.

    242. Ken500 says:

      Immigration is caused by illegal wars and Westminster policies whuch destabilise other countries. They invade and destabilise other countries/regions of the world so they come to Europe. If they traded and gave aid other countries would prosper and migration would fall.

      Westminster policies have been depopulating Scotland for years (up to Devolution). People had to migrate to find jobs.

    243. wannabescot says:

      @Onwards
      “It would still be nice to see the words ‘YES’ or ‘YES ALLIANCE’ on the ballot paper somewhere.”
      Just a small point to make: The next referendum the ballot should read “AYE” not “YES” because yere Scotland after all.

    244. Ken500 says:

      In 1707 (Union) Scotland had a quarter of the UK population (pro rata 15million). Now it has a 9% 5.2Million. In all industrialised, democracies in Europe (without immigration) the populations are falling. Demographic changes.

    245. john king says:

      LizG @ 1.36
      Moral@ 1.13

      That’s got to be the best Freudian slip I’ve ever seen. 🙂
      I mean that in a good way Morag! 🙂

      Ken500
      Haha watching Barrosso laying in about Cameron re EU immigration was the best thing I’ve seen in ages,
      talk about a falling out among thieves. 🙂

    246. Ken500 says:

      Scotland should invest in electric cars ( 5 times cheaper to run) especially for City use. Put it’s fuel surplus to good use. Invest in solar panels and renewable energy. Stop getting ripped off being overcharged by energy companies for the energy it produces.

    247. Ken500 says:

      The Scottish Gov should cut the budget of Strathclyde (Curtice), Glasgow? (Thomkins) and St Andrews (subsidising the wealthy from elsewhere). They want to canvass against Scotland. Let them have austerity, and build some council houses. People in glass libraries.

    248. Ken500 says:

      A few of the ‘Academics?’ In Scotland are amoral, greedy liars. Along with the amoral, greedy lying Press and Politicians.

    249. David Stevenson says:

      Subsidy junkie alert…. Listened to podcast from Radio4 “More or Less” on the Barnett formula. Turns out Labour weren’t pushing hard enough in their subsidy junkie propaganda during the referendum campaign. MoL report us as getting £1700 a head more in public spending than England, not the poxy £1200 Labour claimed.

      No mention of tax revenues flowing to the Treasury though. Who needs balanced broadcasting? No doubt Nige and the gang will be quoting from the state broadcaster up to May. As selectively as the state broadcaster itself, of course.

    250. Ken500 says:

      UK -EU contribution 15Billion euros – £12Billion of £700Billion of revenues. Most of which comes back. CAP payments shared Defence costs etc. EU has good employment and social policies. Holidays, maternity, working hours etc. Makes some Trade Union policies redundant.

      Scotland contribution to UK £7Billion+ (£3Billion plus £4Billion debt repayments on money Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend). £7Billion.Scotland could save £1.5Billion on a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink. £1.5Billion could be saved on Trident/illegal wars/redundant weaponry. = £10Billion. The rest of the UK borrows and spends £10Billion more (pro rata) on the Private sector. Total £20Billion.

      Germany (80million) contributes 25Billion Euros. France (70million)/Italy (?) contribute 20Billion each euros to the EU.

    251. Ken500 says:

      Westminster can keep up the propaganda as much as they like. They will just get voted out in Scotland. Scotland will get Independence.

    252. Ken500 says:

      In Westminster Scotland outvoted 10 to 1. English Laws for English voters. The best reason for Scottish Independence. Why did they not support it.

      Even the ‘West Lothian Question is a myth.

      Thatcher brought in Student loans. Blair/Brown extended it. Majority 217 (59 Scottish MP’s). ConDems increased fees. English MP majority.

      Yet Scotland gets blamed for University fees in England by English voters who voted for the Parties that increased them.

    253. manandboy says:

      Farage, Cameron, even Milliband for No 10?

      One thing is for sure: Scotland will continue to be raped by England.

      David Cameron likes to talk about the UK family.
      Yeah, well we know about fathers who rape their daughters. We know that Cameron is hard at it, raping Scotland of all she’s worth.

      Better Together, Scotland! says Dave. Now let’s see, how much did I make today from Scottish revenues …

    254. Grouse Beater says:

      Ken500:
      Scotland should invest in electric cars ( 5 times cheaper to run) especially for City use

      Got the Smarts? – grousebeater.wordpress

    255. HandandShrimp says:

      Anybody know when the next full poll for Scotland is due? It would be interesting to see the sub samples corroborated.

    256. schrodingers cat says:

      Looking for some volunteers for leaflet drop for SNP around north Ayrshire.. Millport, Skelmorlie and Largs, also need people to man a stall in largs. There is a council by election and both SNP and labour have 11 seats each.

      chance for pay back
      if you live in the area, or know any yes supporters, email them and tell them to vote snp

      http://www.north-ayrshire.gov.uk/news/Date-set-for-Council-By-Election-in-North-Ayrshire-Ward.aspx

    257. Grouse Beater says:

      chance for pay back

      Here’s to success, Schrodinger. Keep us informed.

    258. AuldA says:

      @Morag: “Garde le moral !”

      I failed to see a tangible difference between the Greens and the SNP. I mean, most of the SNP program is quite environment-aware and left-winged, which is basically the turf of the Greens ;). I wonder how the Greens can really emphasize their own identity.

      @Ken500:
      Barroso is an idiot. He doesn’t know the difference between the UK Union and the EU Union. It really is pathetic. Westminster has been secretly taking £Billions out of Scotland for years and wasting it on illegal wars etc (facilitated by Barroso).

      Uh. Glad you said that. EU is a wonderful idea, but it is directed by stuck-up twerps. That spoils the whole thing, alas.

      @Kenny:
      This is not an attempt to say that Scotland was some sort of intellectual superpower (although there is a case for this taking even David Hume alone). But it shows how Scotland was always an intrinsic part of Europe. Heavens, our last two independent monarchs were French princesses!

      Hume is really great. Together with Russell, they are the best philosophers Britain ever gave birth to.

    259. AuldA says:

      @Ken500:
      Scotland should invest in electric cars (5 times cheaper to run) especially for City use.

      You should consider looking at methanol engines (methanol being produced by a reaction between carbon dioxyde and hydrogen, itself obtained through electrolysis of water). This is a fuel as convenient as standard gas, and the net contribution in terms of carbon dioxide is zero. No polluting lead-batteries. No concerns with prolonged recharging: refuel at standard gas stations. Etc.

    260. chalks says:

      http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

      Worth a read folks, perhaps not being in the EU wouldn’t be such a bad thing.

      I find it hard to believe how on earth we could be a socially democratic country with an agreement such as this in place?

      Of course, UKIP/Tories/Red Tories have no problem with TTIP, but it’s a real issue that is hiding in the shadows.

    261. Free Scotland says:

      Just back from a holiday in Majorca, where the wife and I took a short road-train tour round the area where we were staying. In front of us were a (physically) grown-up English family of burger-munchers, who became excited as the bus passed by Burger King and who became almost delirious and looked as if they were ready to stand up and salute as we passed a couple of shabby looking British pubs adorned with union jacks. When they got off the bus, we both heaved a sigh of relief. Embarrassment over – or so we thought. There were two English couples behind us, who were chatting quite sensibly, until we passed two African street vendors, and then it started: fake African accents, monkey noises, racist comments and cheap jibes. They got off at the next stop and, in the process, one of them banged his head quite badly on the roof frame. As we moved on, the other three were fussing round him on the pavement, while the wife and I enjoyed a few moments of Schadenfreude.

    262. Brian Powell says:

      Folks talking about the 2015 GE bring up concerns about there being more Tory MPs in Scotland.

      While I would prefer there were none, I think it is time we stopped pretending Scotland is ‘safe’, a myth that Labour have been using for the last 30-40 years to keep themselves in power.

      One of the biggest messages we still need to get across to the voters is that the powers Holyrood will not protect us, and voting Labour in Scotland gives us some kind of immunity.

      A new History of Scotland would be useful, something like an enlarged Wee Blue Book, expanding on issues like the democratic deficit between the PR voting in Holyrood and the FPTP system in Westminster, with the added disadvantage of the HofLs in tow. Four of the five parties in Holyrood need to put up with and implement the decisions of one of two in Westminster.

      This is important when it comes to dealing with all the big issues affecting Scotland like, poverty, fracking and TTIP., well everything really.

    263. Golfnut says:

      @ Shrodingers cat.
      Re North Ayrshire council by-election.

      SNP Kilmarnock North, at the last branch meeting where looking at providing some volunteers for this.
      Will check if there has been any progress.

    264. bookie from hell says:

      Better Together,Rich or Poor?

      Writing in the Financial Times last November, Cameron called for a policy shift on freedom of movement within the EU by making it more difficult for the POOR,not in the current 28 EU states but in new countries which might join

    265. Valerie says:

      Free Scotland how disgusting, but that type of casual racism is unfortunately not an isolated incident.

      My late partner was English, and always wanted me to order abroad with my weegie accent, as he felt this awful shame of how the English behave abroad, and how they were perceived. We were exactly like you, avoiding all the British type places, preferring to try and follow the natives.

    266. Craig P says:

      David Stevenson. I listened to the same More or Less podcast. They are normally pretty scrupulous (for example they shot down a recent Nigel Farage claim that Scotland has more than 50% of the population on benefits, by pointing out that this figure included pensions, child benefit, etc – and that England has exactly the same proportion of the population ‘on benefits’ by that measure). And in the case of Barnett, yes, Scotland does get more per head than the UK as a whole, on the narrow criteria of Barnett.

      However by failing to mention the even greater flow of monies in from Scotland it just perpetuates the Big Lie.

    267. Brian Powell says:

      The tragic deficit in Labour supporter thinking. Polly Toynbee writing on the UK leaving the EU and Scotland then somehow voting to leave the UK and stay in the EU.

      First the UK could just say you voted No, and decided to to be part of the UK, that is democracy, as some Labour dimwits keep reminding us.

      Labour in Scotland has pedalled the one nation ideology that the poor of Newcastle, Birmingham etc are as important to them as those in Glasgow (OK don’t laugh too loud at that). No matter how obvious it would be for Scotland to vote to leave the UK they would need to work against this to ‘continue to protect the poor of Nescastle etc’.

    268. X_Sticks says:

      @Alex

      “we must move on, to dwell on the past is tantamount to admitting defeat. Forever. I will not go there, I intend to take the fight to the establishment in the next General Election.”

      Hear, hear Alex. Right with you there.

    269. @chalks
      If you want to know how TTIP will affect us in Europe you should read about the NAFTA treaty (North American Free Trade Agreement) between Canada ,Mexico, US, and how it affects every aspect of society from agriculture to policing.

      What i do not understand is with TTIP coming up why do UKIP with its establishment backers and the BBC seeming love affair with Farage want out of EU.

    270. Macnakamura says:

      Anytime I heard Patrick Harvie, he stated quite clearly that his commitment was to Green and he saw that independence was a better route to Green. He said that not all Greens were Yessers and that his Yes was based on a political calculation.
      Well, that was what I understood him to be saying.
      I have no quibble with his honesty and, in fact, it often disarmed the interviewer / opponent who was on the “braveheart” line of questioning.
      His coopération within an electoral alliance is there to be won.

    271. caz-m says:

      BBC Parliament are discussing BBC standards until 11.30am. Some of the answers the BBC reps are giving are just so far from the truth, I might even go so far as to call them lies.

      “We do listen to audience feedback…”

      She actually said that with a straight face.

    272. galamcennalath says:

      @Alex Clark
      @Onwards

      An agreement would be nice, but if it doesn’t happen I reckon all those Greens and SSp supporters will be voting tactically.

      Yes, agreement would be good because it would maximise the incentive for non-party indy people and organisations to continue to campaign.

      However, I don’t think it will happen for a number of reasons.

      With first past the post SNP are ahead of Greens and SSP in every seat so realistically the others would stand down in all but a couple of token seats. Then Holyrood with it’s list system gives the other a fair crack. Also, as discussed above, I get the fealing too that Greens are taking a different path looking to ally themselves with Green England.

      WM2015 will probably go ahead with tactical voting and pragmatic backing for the SNP.

    273. HandandShrimp says:

      “We do listen to audience feedback…”

      ….before laughing at it and ignoring it in a derisory manner.

      Not so much untruthful as simply being economical with the veracity.

      😉

    274. Helena Brown says:

      Free Scotland, having been there and suffered pretty much as you have done. We decided this year that we were not going on another P&O Cruise. Having watched the casual racism over a period of years, having a British Sailaway from Martinique with the usual Union Flags and various other incidents too many to mention, not all involving us. We decided this year to take a Viking River Cruise, what a difference, we did have some English People and only one couple we could say were a wee bit of a problem but other wise we spent the two weeks with mostly Canadian and US citizens with a smattering of Aussies and even New Zealanders, it was refreshing not to have someone say “I don’t understand what you are saying” etc. We always regarded this as a put down, and it is pretty bad when someone who lives perhaps 300 miles away says it but someone from 3,000 does not.

    275. Barontorc says:

      Rock, Alex Clark, et al:-

      There certainly seems to be reticence to get at the truth, which might be no more than a reluctance to get down and dirty over the scam that was our YES/NO Referendum, but it’s not just that, some on here seem intent on hurrying away from controversy, which is being labelled as only some little way short of mind-blowing conspiracy, yet the matter is surely crying out for serious delving.

      Is it possible for instance that the shortfall in declared votes of 665,408 from those who registered to vote is down to indolence, and somehow, voter apathy came to bear upon the YES tally? No doubt this will be fired back as being equally the case that these votes could have gone to NO. But were not talking of messing about at the count where everything was scrutinised, or of the improbability that boxes were tampered with. But, in plain sight – did anyone witness the FINAL tally of bundles of YES and NO votes?

      What’s getting done about the Electoral Commission’s distinct lack of action on their free advertisement of BT mis-claims in their own booklet delivered as official EC guidance booklet to every household in the country. What’s happened about the wilful abuse to the purdah period by the NO-ists – also falling under the EC bailiwick?

      Let’s not roll over continuously to get our national belly rubbed – we have to asking these questions? It isn’t cringe, it’s self-respect, it’s genuine delving. But who’s pushing for it as an imperative? A few are getting mighty fed-up with the ‘move along’ line.

    276. Quentin Quale says:

      Valerie – mention of casual racism and ending comment with ‘follow the natives’? Really?

    277. Valerie says:

      What’s wrong with natives? Native to the country, the country of their birth, in the example Spanish. Native is not meant in any derogatory sense, and that is the difference. Those using fake African accents were being racially offensive, I’m not, as native is used in a correct grammatical sense – born to that country

    278. Valerie says:

      Quentin you are only showing your limited knowledge of vocabulary trying to pull me up, so Google the word, and learn

    279. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says:20 October, 2014 at 7:47 pm:

      “What adjective do you use to describe a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Cannot be British because that would include the Republic of Ireland . Or am I wrong/stupid.”

      Well first of all you are not stupid. It really isn’t difficult, though it is complicated by that confusing fact that the second word in the description of the UK is, “Kingdom”. Her Majesty is The Queen of England, Queen of Scots and protector of Jersey, Guernsey and Isle of Man, (if memory serves well, the citizens of The Republic of Ireland can choose to hold a British Passport too). So, first of all, you get a, “British”, passport as it is legally Her Majesty granting you protection under all the above.

      Here, though, comes the real difference, under Kingdom of England law you are a subject of Her Majesty but under the law of Scotland, (the people of Scotland are legally sovereign), you are not a subject of Her Majesty as, being sovereign and Her Majesty being, “Protector of the People’s Sovereignty), Her Majesty is our Subject). I cannot tell you how the three countries that fall under English Law can be citizens while remaining legally Her Majesty’s Subjects as I’ve never found out any laws relating to that matter.

      I’ll just point out to you that the Prime Minister is totally confused on the matter often calling the UK Britain and referring to it as, “The Country”, and talking about the British Government. The truth being that, “The United Kingdom”, is legally a bipartite Union of, “Kingdoms”, “The Kingdom of England”, contains three countries and is, “A Constitutional Monarchy”, and Britain is an archipelago that contains four UK countries in a political union of the United Kingdom plus the three, (non-UK), Crown protectorates of Jersey, Guernsey and Man and the independent Republic of Ireland.

      Confused?

      You probably still are.
      Sigh!

    280. AuldA says:

      @Free Scotland:

      Some French people are as boorish as those you described. It’s not a problem of nationality. It has to do with intelligence, education and respect.

    281. Onwards says:

      “I failed to see a tangible difference between the Greens and the SNP. I mean, most of the SNP program is quite environment-aware and left-winged, which is basically the turf of the Greens ;). I wonder how the Greens can really emphasize their own identity.”

      I think this is where the identity of nationalism comes in.
      Patrick Harvie started every single speech with “I’m not a nationalist, but..”
      Of course, the real issue is democracy, and perhaps that helped gain extra votes. But it also helps to maintain the image problem that some people have with the SNP, helped by the unionist smear campaign.

      IMO, For some people, especially females, the green party gives a softer identity than the SNP, and avoids any discussion about nationalism.

      Of course there will be some attracted to a hardcore green agenda, against every new road and bypass, but I suspect most new members from the YES campaign are more pragmatic.
      And I think there is a lot of genuine support for independence within the party.
      I don’t think it is lost on the Scottish Greens how much they could progress a general pro-green agenda with self-government.
      A modern progressive European country, with huge potential for renewable energy, and the ability to remove nuclear bombs.. And a voting system where they can be fairly represented.

      For these reasons, there will still be a lot of tactical voting for SNP at Westminster, which shares many of the same values, and will be more effective in progressing more powers for Scotland.

    282. schrodingers cat says:

      @Golfnut
      tx, i’m leaving the country tomorrow, so i cant help, but it would be nice to win this seat, and win it big

      mountains are conquered one step at a time

    283. Grouse Beater says:

      Valerie: What’s wrong with natives?

      The rascism is in his head, Valerie, but you didn’t put it there.

    284. chalks says:

      @Scott

      Simply because they intend on doing exactly what TTIP does, but they don’t want immigrants flooding in.

      TTIP is essentially free market economics, so it’s Thatcherism and right up their street, note they aren’t looking to leave the EU based on TTIP, it’s based on immigrants.

    285. HandandShrimp says:

      SC

      I think the local branch now has over 300 members so hopefully all will go well.

    286. caz-m says:

      There is another upside to the Greens joining a YES Alliance, and that is funding. If the Greens were to go along with the idea that all there members voted for the SNP in 2015 GE, then it would cut out the funding involved in putting candidates forward.

      Why waste thousands of pounds on a GE campaign that you know you have no chance of gaining a seat in?
      It would also cut out leaflet and poster costs for the GE.

      These funds could be built up and used in the Scottish Parliament elections in 2016. It’s a win win for all Indy Parties.

      I would say that the SSP should go down a similar road.

      Don’t waste money and manpower fighting ourselves.

    287. Valerie says:

      Thank you Grouse Beater, I didn’t want to say that, but I was thinking it, because it really is upsetting when someone infers you are racist, and you know you are not.

      I can only assume Quentin has never heard the term Native American, a term those people are very proud of for many reasons.

    288. Harry McAye says:

      Regarding the 665,000 who never voted, it’s maybe an obvious point but a lot of these folk didn’t register specifically for this referendum. Many of them will have already been on the voters roll and, just as with other votes, they chose not to bother this time too.

    289. @Robert Peffers
      (if memory serves well, the citizens of The Republic of Ireland can choose to hold a British Passport too).
      Only if born before 1949 after that it is down to residency in UK or a parent from UK.

    290. AuldA says:

      @Onwards.

      Okay, thanks for the explanation.

      @Valerie :

      Not native, indigenous, autochthon or aborigin!
      ‘Oh, George, the autochthonous folk is so rude!’. Doesn’t that sound so posh, so English? 🙂

    291. Robert Peffers says:

      handclapping says: 0 October, 2014 at 8:13 pm:

      “You don’t; you’re a subject not a citizen.

      You’ve been listening to UK Propaganda, Handclapping. Scots Law is independent and legally, under the independent Scots law, the People of Scotland are sovereign and Her Majesty is legally The Protector of the People’s Sovereignty. That means the Monarch is the sovereign people’s subject. Another way to look at it is that as sovereign, the people of Scotland own Scotland.

      A modern example is that in Scotland an owner of a bit of private land cannot clamp a vehicle parked on that land and demand payment to release it. If they do they can be convicted of demanding money with menaces. That the people of Scotland are sovereign was established by The Declaration Of Arbroath in 1329 and ratified by the Edinburgh-Northamton Treaty of 1328. The people of Scotland have, “Right to Roam”, as they legally own Scotland.

      In The Kingdom of England the Monarch remains legally sovereign and that applies to the three countries under English Law. However, in 1688, “The Glorious Revolution”, the English Parliament deposed James II of England but as the two kingdoms were still independent could not affect the reign of James VII of Scotland, (the reason for the Jacobite Uprisings of 1688-1745 that the English, to this day, call The Jacobite Rebellion but you cannot rebel against a monarchy not your own. The wrongly titled, “Union of the Crowns”, was nothing of the sort as it was only two independent crowns on one person’s head. However, the significant thing was the still independent Parliament of England removed from the joint foreign monarchs they imported, (King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange), the veto over the Parliament of the Kingdom of England and thus made that three country Kingdom of England a, “Constitutional Monarchy”, but not Scotland which was still an independent kingdom in 1688.

      So there you have it – The Treaty of Union of 1706/7 was needed by the Kingdom of England simply because the two Kingdoms were independent and it is why the Scots Legal, Church and Education systems have remained independent ever since. Thus, The People of the Kingdom of Scotland remain legally independent of The Kingdom of England’s legal system, we do not have the Monarch of Scots as the head of an, “Established”, church of Scotland and our education system also remains independent of English laws.

      So we Scots are NOT Her Majesty’s subjects for she, (and thus the UK Parliament), are legally our subjects and Surprise! Surprise! It is the legal point on which the legally Sovereign People of Scotland need no other legal reason than a majority vote of our legally elected representatives at Westminster to decide to disunite the bipartite United Kingdom and return to Scotland as an independent Parliament of Scotland.

      Being legal representatives of the Sovereign People of Scotland it is their legal right to carry out any mandate given them by the Sovereign People of Scotland. Any Legal Eagles out there going to prove me wrong – and make it stick?

    292. Grouse Beater says:

      Valerie: I can only assume Quentin has never heard the term Native American

      Obviously. I’ve tried to bring up the issue of the number of English settlers in Edinburgh that infuse our culture and mores but it’s considered by resident English as a racist topic that should remain taboo.

      Mind you, in the USA’s Southwest there’s no such thing as a ‘native American.’ Stores that appear sporadically and scattered along the dust-driven highway through Arizona to New Mexico, selling jewelry and hand-carved shaman dolls, proclaim in large letters: ‘Indian Store.’

      There you are Hopi, Apache, or Navajo.

      I am Lowland Scots. My wife is Highland Scots. This is my country.

    293. @chalks
      Will UKIP use TTIP as another lever to get UK out of EU in next GE I wonder.

    294. Grouse Beater says:

      And what do we do about the Queen?

      We talk a lot of Westminster’s reaction or over-reaction on thinking they had lost the vote.

      Lizzie appears to have got off Scot free – if that’s the right expression.

      She broke trust and strict protocol by making her feelings known about the Referendum, and shuffling her grandson and wife out into the streets to remind us of our loyalties barely hours after her daughter-in-law conceived!!

      Oh, look! Another lovely Royal bread snapper to sustain the House of Windsor. Wonderful. We are blessed.

      Let’s apply for Royal imprematur for our food banks.

      Goodness knows how many confidential letters from Prince Charles expressing alarm at the thought of independence and proposing modes of attack got hand-delivered to Number 10.

      And before anybody suggests Lizzie is irrelevant, the big surprise to me was how many street parties were held on Lizzy’s Jubilee celebration.

      Why should she be free of sustained disdain?

      Some of my countrymen have no knowledge of their country’s history and even less regard for its future.

    295. Will Podmore says:

      Interesting points being raised here about the EU’s proposed Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. TTIP is not (just) transatlantic; it is not about trade; it is not about investment; and it is not about partnership. It would benefit only the big corporations in the USA and the EU, at the expense of the working classes of the world. All areas of public interest would be subject to mandatory free trade, liberalisation, deregulation and privatisation – agriculture, financial services, health, education, energy, food, health and safety standards, communications, culture, public utilities like water and transport, local government services, and ‘buy local’ procurement policies. These rules would subject all our services, including the NHS, to private corporate rule.
      That is why so many of our trade unions oppose TTIP, and why the TUC voted unanimously against it.
      The TUC said, “Congress remains unconvinced by official claims of job creation arising out of TTIP, and considers that the dangers to public services, workers’ rights and environmental standards outweigh any potential benefits. … Congress therefore resolves that the trade union movement should now call for the TTIP negotiations to be halted and adopt a clear position of outright opposition to TTIP, and the other trade agreements currently being negotiated …”
      Many think TTIP stands for Transnationals’ Treaty for Imposing Privatisation. Unison’s James Anthony said at the TUC, “An EU with TTIP is not an EU that helps our members – and not an EU we want to be part of.”
      Many of our unions now have policy against TTIP. TTIP exposes the EU’s true nature – pro-capital, pro-privatisation, anti-employment rights, anti-trade union.

    296. chalks says:

      @Scott

      They might mention it, but only if the immigrant stuff starts to lose traction.

      They’d be opening themselves up to mountains of criticism as they all believe in the free market model.

      I think it’s the main stream media’s mission to let it pass without letting anyone know about it.

      The rich, global companies have spoken.

    297. K1 says:

      On the subject of TTIP, I think to get a good straightforward grasp for those that don’t maybe know too much about it; is to watch Dr Philappa Whitford talk about it within the Socttish context.

      Once you understand how England and Scotland’s health service differ, and you understand the changes to the Social Care Act that took place in 2012. You can then fully grasp how this will affect us further down the line.

      This speech was a couple of months ago, and in the context of the upcoming vote. Nonetheless it cannot be overstated how relevant we knew this was then, and of how the whole better together brigade denied it’s relevance and consequences with the full explicit backing of the MSM (bar an article here and there, from a Yes perspcetive, in the herald I think)

      Now that they can ‘safely’ report the true state of affairs, they play the panic card. They are complicit in witholding vital information that would have influenced the vote, they knew it and we know it. B****rds.

      This has to be the main issue for all pro indy parties to focus on, we need to find ways to mitigate what is definitely now coming down the line. We also need to have as many people as possible understand in simple terms exactly what TTIP is. I think Philappa’s gift is just that.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJfYq-5gaw0

    298. Valerie says:

      Well said K1, there was very little in the southern press about TTIP prior to the referendum campaign, so little notice of it down there in relation to NHS, unless you were looking for it, so the general public knew very little from MSM.

      When NHS took centre stage in the referendum, some of the southern media started picking up bits of it, and the public were starting to ask why are the Scots screaming about the NHS.

      It truly scares me where the NHS could be taken to, and I told anyone that would listen, it would be the American model of Healthcare – a total nightmare.

    299. @ Will
      Why if TTIP is going to be such a seismic change to every part of society is there not more coverage by our MSM especially the BBC.

    300. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alex Clark says: 20 October, 2014 at 10:52 :

      “Robert, I’d suggest that you really need to get along to a postal vote opening the next opportunity you have got so as you can witness the process for yourself.

      Alex, I first got involved as a political activist while still a schoolboy in 1946. I’ve seen more counts than I care to remember. Whatever gave you the idea I needed to see yet another one first hand?

      Now I don’t know if you have any experience of prestidigitation or stage illusionists but, as I already pointed out, Joe Public may often think he sees something that quite obviously cannot happen. Women simply cannot survive being cut in half, large elephants do not just disappear before your eyes.

      There are well documented methods of how such things are done. Quite often what you see and what actually happened are two different things. They often rely upon what is called misdirection. So please, do not patronise me. BTW: I made no claims that there were any particular cheating

      Just that it was equally utterly stupid to make claims there were no cheats as it was to claim there were. Without firm evidence either claim is mince.

    301. Barontorc says:

      @Scot Finlayson – surely that’s a rhetorical question?

      The BBC is the formal and official mouthpiece of the UK establishment, which may or may not include the UK Government, dependent on how the establishment wants the BBC to jump.

      The MSM is the establishment writ large.

      That and that alone is the reason we Scots got screwed in the past referendum – and when I say we Scots, I mean YES and NO alike.

    302. Morag says:

      Just that it was equally utterly stupid to make claims there were no cheats as it was to claim there were. Without firm evidence either claim is mince.

      That’s not how it works. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Without any evidence of hanky-panky, the possibility is merely abstract, and isn’t worth serious consideration.

      More than that, without even a plausible hypothesis of how hanky-panky might have been achieved without any evidence being left behind, it’s delusional. It’s on the level of suggesting there were little elves in the ballot boxes rubbing out Yes votes and changing them to No votes.

    303. @Morag
      What about the testaments from over 400 Scottish voters that they had blank backed ballot papers that the great antiestablishmentarianist Naomi Wolf handed over on the Hope over Fear rally,are they not evidence of hanky panky?

      According to the Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013 guidelines the back of the ballot paper will have an unique identifying number ,the name of the council area and the words Referendum on 18 September 2104
      So unless some elves rubbed them out something strange is going on , corruption or incompetence I would like to know which.

      http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2013/14/schedule/2

    304. AuldA says:

      @Scot Finlayson:
      What about the testaments from over 400 Scottish voters that they had blank backed ballot papers that the great antiestablishmentarianist Naomi Wolf handed over on the Hope over Fear rally,are they not evidence of hanky panky?

      They are dead? The MI5 terminated them? 🙂

    305. Robert Kerr says:

      Where are the extra (unused ?) ballot papers now?

      Perhaps they have been prestidigitated away to hyperspace?

    306. Morag says:

      I already talked about the legendary, nay mythical “blank-backed ballots” on two previous threads. One very recent. I’m not typing it all out again.

      They don’t exist. People were mistaken. (Including me.) It’s that simple.

      The procedure for dealing with unused ballot papers was detailed in the regulations for conducting the referendum. I presume that procedure was carried out, unless anyone knows anything to the contrary.

    307. Morag says:

      OK, just because I’m on a good mood, here you go.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-good-start/comment-page-1/#comment-1912169

      Ask a few questions.

      First, where are the voters who noticed the blank-backed papers before putting them in the ballot box, and queried this with the polling clerk? There don’t seem to be any. All we have is people who, in retrospect, don’t remember a number being there. Everyone who actively checked for the number while the paper was in their possession found that it did indeed exist.

      Second, what was the purpose of this remarkably difficult and remarkably risky exercise that is alleged to have taken place? What possible manipulation needs blank-backed papers, and couldn’t be accomplished using the normal papers?

      And third, do you remember the polling clerk making a note on a separate sheet when you were given your paper? This note, which was made for everyone, consisted of the ID number of the voter, and the number of the paper issued to that voter. Where was the latter number copied from? That’s right, the back of the paper. As this record is routine, any blank-backed ballots would inevitably have been noticed by the polling clerk at that stage.

      Or is it being suggested that many hundreds of people were allowed to vote without their ID numbers being added to the list along with their paper numbers? And somehow the clerks failed to realise they were doing it wrong, or maybe they were in on it? Including the 45% (more, as most were not elderly) who were Yes voters?

    308. Cadogan Enright says:

      @Morag 21 October, 2014 at 1:00 am
      “Cadogan, not getting into the nuts and bolts of a Yes Alliance (because I think it’s a lot more complicated than that), but do you seriously think 59 seats is achievable in any possible combination of circumstances?”
      Morag, Glad you are still on this tread – I dont have your stamina 1am was way past my bedtime.

      YES, actually – it seems to me that (say) picking 2 seats each for the Greens and the Socialists some distance apart will allow some to travel to support ‘their’ candidate in the election. BUT if all 3 party groups give a direction to campaign to support the local Alliance candidate regardless MOST will revert to the old YES alliance teams and work flat out for the candidate whomever they happen to be locally.

      During the referendum I worked in Forres, and the situation there was the opposite to what you described in your area. The group there had a huge over representation of Greeny types (near Findhorn I suppose) and they rather swamped the SNP. Everyone worked incredibly well together. The local MP is Angus Robertson who was dead on, and I suspect the hyper activity in Forres and the villages around by the huge combined team enabled him to give some time to weaker areas in what used to be a Tory stronghold.

      Now, if the local greens got an instruction to go work for their local candidate, as the party had been given 2 winnable seats in the central belt – the likelyhood of everyone trooping off to work there (as you suggest) is slim to none. Angus would get a massive boost from a group of Greens who are quite capable of garnering a few thousand votes not just in Moray but around the Highlands.

      It takes hours to travel anywhere outside the central belt. The only other place you could realistically go is North to Inverness and try and unseat Danny Alexander, or where else? (looking at the results there the last time and how Libdems are langushing – I just might head there myself in April (any wingers with a spare room in Inverness for a month?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverness,_Nairn,_Badenoch_and_Strathspey_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

      An Alliance has all sort of practical consequences on the ground to someone like me who pounds pavements during the day and climbs lampposts at night- you can go campaigning right after work ‘cos your campaign team is right there in you local town or village – those who dont work can organise during the day locally for a candidate who has a serious chance of winning. The teams that worked during the referendum already know each others strengths and weaknesses.

      Frankly for a person who worked all the hours God sent me during the referendum, I would love to work with that amazing zany eclectic SNP-Green-Socialist-buddist-oldie-English team again with no worries about party affilations.

      The majority in Moray would be so high it would be out of sight, and God help Danny Alexander.

    309. Morag says:

      I was just looking at a short article on Bella by Stewart Hosie, explicitly calling for a Yes alliance. I have a huge amount of respect for Stewart, and will probably vote for him as deputy leader. So if he thinks it’s doable, it probably is.

      Unless it’s just a campaigning tactic. Damn, how did I get this cynical?

    310. AuldA says:

      @robert Kerr:

      With a name like this, you should be the hyperspace specialist.

      (If you don’t get it, try to Google ‘Roy Kerr’)

    311. Will Podmore says:

      Scott, it’s not just the BBC that doesn’t mention the TTIP. The SNP has not given it much attention either. Nicola Sturgeon, on 26 February 2013, praised it, “the European Union and the USA announced that they would work to establish a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. The announcement was a reminder of the massive opportunities that European Union membership brings.”
      Euro candidate Ian Hudghton, SNP prospective MEP, when asked on 21 May 2014, “Where do you stand on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership?” replied,
      “The SNP recognises the importance of the EU’s role in negotiating international trade agreements. Whilst the Westminster parties seem intent on moving the UK to an increasingly isolationist position, we consider that negotiating as part of the world’s largest single market results in advantageous deals which individual states would struggle to achieve.
      Nevertheless, the TTIP as it currently stands gives cause for concern. International agreements should not be used as a means to circumvent or subvert existing national or EU laws. It is imperative that EU standards on environmental protection, workers rights and public services are retained.” Hardly the outright opposition to TTIP that the TUC unanimously agreed!

    312. Croompenstein says:

      Mike’s apologised for the song 😀



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top