This is not an April Fool
209% of the most ambitious target ever set for a pro-independence fundraiser.
335% of last year’s figure.
Wow. Except “Wow” doesn’t get anywhere near it.
(You’ll have to give us a wee while to add all the hundreds and hundreds of names to our Credits page and get the badges sent out when they arrive. But hopefully it’ll be a lot quicker than last year.)
Not only did you crush our target in under eight and a half hours, but then you dug even deeper and shoved a bunch of other fundraisers to their targets too. Folks, you’re really something.
For a website that’s quite often, and bewilderingly, castigated by certain factions on the Yes side (for whom, if truth be told, we suspect both we and you are just a little bit too working-class and vulgar) as well as enduring a more or less constant barrage of smears, lies, harassment and direct attacks from the No camp and the media, that’s quite a vote of public confidence. We’ll do our damnedest to be worthy of it.
Worth every penny, and considerably better value for money than the BBC license fee :). It is you who have done us proud, Rev.
Give us a shout if you want a hand with dispatch!
Apologies for going off topic.
BBC Morning Call on in 5 mins about Bill Munro Barrhead Travel Email
BBC RADIO SCOTLAND MORNING CALL
Call 0500 92 95 00. Text 80295.
Email morningcallscotland@bbc.co.uk
Bill Munro’s email is riddled with embarrassing errors. Here’s just 6 of them:
1. He says his business wouldn’t be able to trade outside an independent Scotland for 3 years: this has absolutely no basis in reality – trading takes place between independent countries every day of the year, Scotland would be no different. Ireland (in the EU) and Norway (outside the EU) all trade with England, so too would Scotland.
2. He says Scotland would be ‘outwith the EU’ but as Charlie Jeffery, Professor at Edinburgh University says “the conclusion of almost all independent expert analysis is that Scottish EU membership would be uninterrupted”.
3. He says Scotland would have to have its own currency, but Scotland already has a currency, the £ sterling and this would continue after a Yes. As a UK Government minister told the Guardian last week, “of course there would be a currency union”. As the government minister continued, “saying no to a currency union is obviously a vital part of the no campaign. But everything would change in the negotiations if there were a yes vote”
4. He says Scotland has ‘joint and several liability” for the UK’s national debt, however, this has been explicitly denied by the UK government which announced to the markets earlier this year that it would retain legal responsibility for all UK debt. As the Scottish Government set out in its White Paper, Scotland would meet its fair share on the basis that assets and liabilities go together – a cost that is already factored in to Scotland’s national accounts estimates.
5. He says Scotland would immediately have to join the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) on the path to joining the Euro, but EU law makes it 100% explicit that joining ERM is a totally voluntary decision. His claim is contrary to the legal position set out in the treaties and secondary legislation.
6. He says the ERM requirement would result in spending cuts in Scotland, but as the EU law position already stated makes clear, this claim has no basis in fact.
As Standard & Poor’s stated: “Even excluding North Sea output and calculating per capita GDP only by looking at onshore income, Scotland would qualify for our highest economic assessment”
Well done on the fundraiser, looking forward to all the goodies the cash will buy.
@Linda’s Back
If anyone is calling Morning Call on Barrhead see this tweet saying the company is neutral.
link to twitter.com
You are a force to be reckoned with….no doubt.
You have a large influence in this debate and no doubt they will plot and plot again to bring you down.
Congratulations on building something of significance.
A goto website for the cause of Scottish Independence.
Well done Rev Stuart Campbell.
For years we have needed a rallying point for the many people of this land which was obstructed by Westminster, EBC, MSM and the establishment in particular, manage the news, divide and rule, and they are still at it.
You and many others have allowed us to find people with a common cause and removed that feeling of isolation. We are a dynamic (most of the time) group who inform, discus and broaden our knowledge and understanding, allowing us to become a coherent force in scottish politics and to address misinformation and lies spewed out by the establishment propaganda machine. Thanks rev and all the other bloggers for Scotland you have made me very proud of you all. Now that is something to be proud of.
Well Done all the Wingers, now you do know you are banned from every event that Better Together ever holds ever again. You do know that it is the Rev they are talking about having ALL the money.
One thing we know is that it could not go to a better cause.
Another thing, should we need a President maybe we should have the Reverend Stuart Campbell’s name on the Ballot Paper.
Amazing what you can do with £50!
Great stuff…
Outstanding!
Now that is a success story.
Well done the Wingers. 🙂
Call K 2 mins ago “don’t believe the internet bampots”
Another travel boss saying he agrees with Berrheid boss.
Must be April feils day.
I’ve had countless people asking me about the significance of my gold wings badge which I wear every day and it’s helped to start many conversations about indy/WoS. I’ve even worn it at a nudist convention in a ‘price albert’ manner and that was fun…..
Off-topic, but I would just like to take this opportunity to regrettably announce that I will now be voting No. I’ve been thinking about it for some time now, but the currency union stuff has finally swayed it for me. I still agree with the idea that nations should govern themselves, but it’s time we faced facts and admitted that Scotland isn’t really a nation, it’s just a region of the UK. That’s why Duncan Hothersall is totally correct when he talks of independence “drawing new borders”, because there is no border between Scotland and England, therefore we are not a nation in our own right.
Plus Alistair Darling has convinced me that if he’s the best politician Scotland has, then we’re just not capable of self-government. So although it’s not how he intended to do it, he has convinced me that only a No vote can save Scotland from turning into a basket case economy, one that would do daft things like give multi-billion bailouts to financial institutions without getting a guarantee that they would change their behaviour, or sell off national assets for a fraction of their true worth.
Hope you lot can forgive me, but there it is. UK OK may not be the most tantalising slogan, but certain mediocrity is better than taking a chance.
Congratulations (and thanks) Stu for your excellent journalism, and to all of us for showing such amazing support.
Better Together have neither the talent, the vision nor the grassroots support that we enjoy. Of course, we also have facts and evidence on our side.
This site, and many other like it, plus the vibrant and diverse community of Yes supporters, are a big part of why we are going to win this referendum.
The online and on-the-ground campaigning for Yes is a direct demonstration of why an independent Scotland will succeed: we are showing that by getting involved, and by making different choices, we can make things better for the people of Scotland.
Well I guess that you are well aware now, that people are valuing WINGS for the work you and other contributors are putting into it.It is a positive in a negative world, keep up the good work.
Helena Brown says:
Well Done all the Wingers, now you do know you are banned from every event that Better Together ever holds ever again.
That might be more of a threat if they ever actually held any events.
Nah, not even then!
Thanks for your hard work on this, even the advertising became a news item! The fundraising shows the kind of widespread, grassroots support that this campaign has.
@Linda’s Back 8:43
Good stuff Linda
Fantastic result your worth every penny. Wings is my favourite site and I recommend it to everyone
As long as you keep exposing their lies you are worth every penny keep up the good work 😉
Great, well done!
In another blow to the NO Campaign, Alastair Darling has admitted to having never tasted Clootie dumpling and has never knowingly held his wheesht despite plenty of encouragement since birth.
In a BBC radio interview, Darling conceded there were truth in the ‘ClootieGate’ rumours. These rumours surfaced over the weekend when an unknown Westminister official admitted that Kirriemuir Gingerbread would indeed be on the table during any discussions between the Uk and Scottish Governments despite Darlings constant denials.
A wonderful result on the fundraiser. No doubt those of a bitter and twisted disposition will say we didn’t really do it and that adverts, polls, and site are all an optical illusion.
Wings gives you Balls….to paraphrase a well known slogan 🙂
Well done Rev!
I would like a receipt marked “From Cybernat Central” so that I can frame it. 🙂
“Internet bambpots for Yes”. “Nudists for Yes”.
Man this thing is growing arms and legs.
Well done, Wings, and the readers and all those who donate. The YES camp is really on the march now, roll on September, roll on independence day.:-)
Well done the Rev and everyone who contributed to this fantastic amount .
It is due to sites like wings and the dedication of all who contribute that we are turning the tide against project fears negativity .
Ahhh, Morning Call, speakers beginning to smell a bit like wee, many opinions from one-foot-in-the-grave-wombles, Louise desperately trying to make Munro’s cock-up sound like the artistry of Martin Luther King, cars on the fucking pavement???
Ears hurty.
Well done to ”THE CONTROLLER” (copyright Lard Foulkes).
I do quite like the Guardian April Fool
We are going to drive on the right if independent….the really funny thing is that Better Together types have already said something like this in all seriousness.
@Desimond Kirriemuir Gingerbread is a NON negotiable Scottish asset 😛
Well done Wingers, well done Stu! Keep up the good work.
Well done Rev for another brilliant week, I hear the “nasty cybernats” are very bad people 🙂
Folks remember there are alternative blogs available ..I.e.
The wee ginger dug & glorious Bella !.
It would appear for some weeks now that ‘Wings Over Scotland’ is no longer just reporting on the news but actually creating it. Seems like journalists are visiting this site and then reporting on the posts. Just look at the Barrhead travel story which broke here yesterday. All over the papers today and even a Call Kaye phone in. Oh how the landscape has changed.
@HandandShrimp
“the really funny thing is that Better Together types have already said something like this in all seriousness.”
Now you’re being ridiculous. BT is full of serious types whom we trust, like Andy Burnham.
link to telegraph.co.uk
Tartan Tory
‘price albert’ … ?
Please give further details.
I am a Tory, no honestly I am Tory. I thought Maggie Thatcher was brilliant. I admired Tony Blair for his honesty. I will be supporting England in the World Cup and hopefully put one over the Jerries and the Argies.
Go England Go.
The Woman for Independence group could do with a little help with their fundraiser.
link to indiegogo.com
Chris Darroch @9.03
Don’t thank me I’m just the messenger,sheer plagiarism from Stephen Noon’s twitter page
Absolutely outstanding endorsement of your work and dedication in tearing apart the narrative of fear. Long may you continue!
@ Doug Daniel – Aye, that will be right, LOL.
Magnificent effort Wingers, pats on backs all round.
Is WoW an indicator of your longer term expansion plans for the franchise?
I’m hoping that you will have some spare time after 19th Sep! So I guess that WingsOverWorld would be a great way to Crowdfund across the whole globe 🙂
Great job so far !
Well done everybody, a credit to Scotland, democracy and freedom of speech.
I would like to take this opportunity to announce my engagement to Duncan Hothersall, invites will be going out shortly to the 1714 fundraisers and the Rev Stu will be carrying out the marriage ceremony on 19th September. Doug Daniel, Macart, Ian Brotherhood and Cameron B will be the bridesmaids. Best man Jeanette Krankie. Dresses by Eddie Izzard. Speeches by Johann Lamont and Jerry Sadowitz. Catering by apparatchiks on zero hour contracts pilfering from the local food bank and entertainment provided by Eric Joyce destroying the bar. Hotel stay over arrangements organised by Tommy Sheridan. Alistair Darling will be godfather to our adopted children (Anthony and Gordon). Honeymoon arranged by Barrhead Travel to Brian Wilson’s pad in Cuba.
Wish us well.
Worth every penny Rev and more if needed. Thanks for all your honest, hard work. It’s been a privelege to have been a part of all the success of wings. On, on.
@ Doug Daniel 🙂 you gave me a funny turn for a minute there!
Well done and thanks for all your hard work. Wings is a phenomenal site, literally 🙂
Hi Stu.
I hear your flushed at the moment. Any chance of a tap until payday?
@ dcanmore
Brilliant!
Meanwhile back at SPT link to dailyrecord.co.uk
@ Doug Daniel, I read it twice then I realised the date.
@Hotrod Cadets, you spotted the flaw. Good on you.
I was not joking about the Rev for President though.
Fantastic result! Well done everyone who contributed. We may have done it with some donating (myself included) in little drips and drops of £1 and £5, some donated whopping amounts – but the amount doesn’t matter, what matters is that this shows the combined power that yes has. I just hope that more and more people wake up to the truth and we continue to see that combined power right through to yes!
Yippee, well done us! I wonder how much BT raises at its mass rallies and public meetings up and down the country? Actually, there’s a good article by Lesley Riddoch in the Hootsmon contrasting the top-down approach of BT with the massive – can I use that description? – grassroots campaigning of Yes
Thing is Rev, you’d never have sniffed a hundredth of this amount if you hadn’t made this site what it is – the go-to site for independence information.
Now, where’s my Blue Book?
Well done Wingers! And well done Stu for an Amazing site. You are well known now so I hope this isn’t going to your head! We need you!
O/t I heard Morning Call. I usually switch on and switch off because it’s usually dreadful! Heard the stuff about Munroe and Barrhead Travel and then turned over . Had a go at them on their Facebook page yesterday. Lots of people saying they wouldn’t use them again for travel or holidays. Good on them !
@ Doug Daniels – Hope you lot can forgive me, but there it is. UK OK may not be the most tantalising slogan, but certain mediocrity is better than taking a chance.
Be off with you then you turncoat. Obviously you have received an email from BT’s KITTY RAVEN inviting you to the Eggie Gizzard show. Perhaps you Googled KITTY RAVEN and your head has been turned by her offer of post show Lee’s new Jaffa Cakes? [Other Jaffa’s are available] 🙂
@ James Kay
‘price albert’ … ? Please give further details.
Too painful to tell I’m afraid James. Besides, it’s a family friendly site here, so I couldn’t possibly divulge….
Doug Daniel,
Tongue firmly in cheek I assume 01/04/2014.
@Doug Daniel 09:04am
At last, we have someone who can occupy the BT chair at debates! I hope your diary doesn’t fill up too quickly. I’m assuming there’s a 12:00 hours deadline for bookings
Well done Wings yet again.
Nice wee plug last night on Scotland Tonight for pro indi blogs, including Wings, from Kevin Williamson about 7 mins in
link to player.stv.tv.
BTW Im still having to log in each time, despite the fact that I have been posting since the birth of Wings.
Is it just me, or are others experiencing this as well?
Excellent amazing result.
It’s a must now to go celebrate with a wee jar or twa on Friday night at the Counting House Wings bash.
🙂
Brilliant result. Now looking forward to watching the money getting spent!
Oh Doug, I’m so sorry to hear that. But since we’re making announcements, I have one of my own: I’m afraid I won’t be in the country for the referendum, and shall thus miss the vote. Why? Well, there’s a really big My Little Pony convention on in Austin, Texas on 5th-7th September, and, well, I really can’t miss it, guys! Sure, I could’ve waited for the inaugural Scottish MLP convention Brony Scot in October, but ask yourself what’s more important, the democratic freedom of your country, or going to a convention about cartoon equines?
I’ve made my decision, and I’m afraid you’ll all have to do without me. In the meantime, every one of my posts on here will be My Little Pony-related, and have nothing to do with Scottish matters. After much soul-searching, I’ve found ’80s kid’s franchises are more important to me than democracy, equality, social justice, peace, green energy, national pride and my family’s happiness. OH WELL.
Jim T:
Sorry Jim, but it’s so obvious that people should vote No that there’s no need to debate it.
WingsOverScotland = Priceless.
Compare to Ian Davidson’s Expenses claims alone worth £90,000 over four years. Plus £60,000 pa MPs salary and another 17,000 pa for chairing the Scottish affairs select committee. Thats 99,500 per year. = worthless!
Damn thats £s obviously 🙁
Doug Daniel,
I have some tree spaghetti if you need some!.
Stu, you really need to update the mouseover on the sidebar. It’s still showing £107,085 or something like that.
Well done fellow Wingers, a great achievement, had the pleasure of seeing the Wings ad on the bus yesterday and the guy next to me was caught havin a wee peek, it will be getting framed in due course…
@Dcanmore
Congratulations.
As a wedding gift, I have booked you and your beloved Dunc a weekend stay at Lord Watsons hotel. Its the hottest place in town apparently.
Just contributed a double-three to take us up to a better sounding 110,750. Keep up the GREAT work Rev – YES – we really do appreciate all of your time and effort!
Awesome amount raised, well done Rev. Can you bung us a few thousand so we can drink the Counting House dry on Friday Night?
I’m proud to do what I can to keep this site and any other that promotes an indie Scotland up and running.
Well done to the Rev for having the guts to set it up and enough insight to know how to turn it into a weapon of hard facts and information. This is the site that BT fear the most and rightly so.
Living by Frankfurt we don’t get many YES newspapers – in fact NONE – so unlike Ronnie the Folder 😉 I have no idea what they look like. Does anyone have a PDF / JPG of a copy?
Charities aside, most worthwhile donation I’ve made to anything. Like the Wingsoverworld suggestion too!!!
@ Dcanmore 10.05
Honeymoon arranged by Barrhead Travel to Brian Wilson’s pad in Cuba.
Has Brian Wilson got a pad in Cuba?!! Guess it was worth his while moving on from his time with the West Highland Free Press; that was when he was a socialist of course, before he discovered Westminster and interesting things like energy companies.
In a shock announcement, 10 Downing Street has announced that should Scotland vote YES, the country will not be allowed to celebrate April Fools Day.
“April Fools is obviously a British holiday and should Scotland separate then we shall retain all the foolishness here at Westminster” said an unknown Cabinet Member.
Remember rev,the odds are heavily against us.We trail in the opinion polls.I expect you to spend that money on various campaign projects with varying degrees of success.If there aren’t a few failures,it means you’re being too cautious.Large parts of the YES campaign have to be constrained by caution.Your function is different.
@ David McCann 10:43am
BTW Im still having to log in each time, despite the fact that I have been posting since the birth of Wings.
Is it just me, or are others experiencing this as well?
Nope, me too.
Worth every penny. I use this site a lot and have found a lot of very useful information. Keep it up!
Rev,
How much of the money raised did you put in that brown envelope you gave to the Coalition Government Minister who spilled the beans on Currency Union to the Guardian?
Just askin’
In relation to one of the posts you linked to about the yes side having Wings Detractors.
The guy in the tweet calls you a bigot. I have been on the site for 4 months now and see no evidence of this. I assume he hasn’t actually read any of your posts and just the MSM.
These rumours must have started somewhere though. Was there a particularly contentious post in the past that they have misrepresented?
Rev,
How much of the money raised did you put in that brown envelope you gave to the Coalition Government Minister who spilled the beans on Currency Union to the Guardian?
Just askin’
In relation to one of the posts you linked to about the yes side having Wings Detractors.
The guy in the tweet calls you a bigot. I have been on the site for 4 months now and see no evidence of this. I assume he hasn’t actually read any of your posts and just the MSM.
These rumours must have started somewhere though. Was there a particularly contentious post in the past that they have misrepresented?
Rev,
How much of the money raised did you put in that brown envelope you gave to the Coalition Government Minister who spilled the beans on Currency Union to the Guardian?
Just askin’
Posted twice moment ago because it looks like there is a bit of DDOSing going on …
Interesting perspective that all the April Fool jokes in the print media are at Scotland’s expense.
@ Midgehunter
Drop me a line at bill_urquhart@hotmail.com and I’ll post you a copy. 🙂
No. They’ve dredged Stu’s past and dug up about three things they think can be ripped out of context and misrepresented. One is a joke in the context of reviewing a videogame, one is some sort of mad rant at someone where he made out he thought 9/11 was funny, which is obviously litotes in context, and one was a couple of tweets were he baulked at addressing Bradley Manning as “she” the minute that individual re-branded as Chelsea Manning.
The only thing on Wings anyone has taken exception to is this article.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
That produced attacks from a number of quarters, including Willie Rennie, which Stuart fisked here.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
I’ve also seen that article described on Twitter as Wings “using photoshopped pictures of dead British soldiers”. Uh, yeah, it’s photoshopped in that the number plates of the vehicles in the cortege have been blurred.
Oh, and Stuart happens to have a view of the underlying cause of the Hillsborough disaster which a number of people (including me) disagree with. That also makes him a bad person you understand.
That’s what they’re reduced to, to try to discredit him. That and “will you be voting in the referendum?”
Pathetic.
Thanks for all the hard work you do, Rev. Subwaygate was a stroke of genius. Can’t wait to see what’s coming up next.
Excellent! Well done, Stu. And well done too to the many contributors.
Great result… Get in there!
Wonder if this will cause the No side apoplexy? And what will be the reaction of some MSM journalists? Campaigning can be so much fun.
Ben
It is called a syllogistic fallacy.
Deductive reasoning states that all cats are mammals, some cats are white, therefore some mammals are white. False reasoning would be all cats are mammals, some cats are white therefore all mammals are white.
As Morag said the three things you will see quoted that “prove” Stu is in fact Satan, is that he was sarcastic with someone regarding 9/11, that he was comfortable with Manning taking whatever identity he liked but refused to jump on the PC wagon and finally that he feels that the fans who were shoving at the back to get through the gates take part of the blame for Hillsborough. I don’t believe he has at any point excused the police their shortcomings or the Sun for its lies.
The deductive reasoning seems to be
I disagree with Stu on a specific issue, Stu has views on many other issues, therefore I disagree with every view he holds.
Of course a more jaundiced view might be…
Stu has a very successful pro-independence website, therefore I will bitch bitterly about every possible and impossible slight he may have made on any subject in his entire life in order to make a desperate attempt to smear Wings over Scotland.
I go with the latter
Well done contributers and well done Stuart for making this site such a success story.
When all is done and dusted, historians will look back at this time and point to this site as having made a major contribution in bringing the whole rotten unionist house crashing down.
Proud of you all.
Well done, Rev! Consistently excellent value for money, this site has opened my eyes to the underhandedness that many parts of the NO campaign are capable of. [“Of which…” Ed.]
I know that iScotland’s unicameral parliament won’t have any place for gratuitous “honours” like Westminster does, but surely it will retain some way of recognition major contributions (the French may have ditched their useless aristocracy, but still have their Legion d’Honneur). Whatever they do in that regard, you certainly deserve such recognition: Wings has been fundamental in changing perceptions and (ultimately, one hopes) in facilitating a resounding YES vote.
Fantastic job you’re doing. Keep it up!
Truly humbling and phenomenal result from the fundraiser.
10/10 for Rev Stu and his light touch (most of the time) moderating. It can’t be an easy job herding a bunch of cats like us, but also true that with such an unruly mob how can Yes possibly fail.
Let’s get out there and do this thing!
Betty Boop
Has Brian Wilson got a pad in Cuba?
Our Brian does very well out of Cuba.
Let Google be your friend.
@Dal Riata
Via one of the links Morag sent ( the Army coffins piece) I have just read your retort to Duncan.
Its the best homage to Trainspotting Ive read in many a year. Bravo! Your next chips with salt n sauce is on me!
PS Anyone who thinks there isnt a place for swearing on this site should read it and they’ll soon change their tune.
Thats a fantastic result but this website is one of the best for reporting the truth! Can you imagine how much harder it would have been say 20 years ago,before websites like this?
We would have been wading through that much crap,spewed out by MSM everyday,that I doubt the YES campaign would have been so effective.
Well done Stu!
Yipee!
Well done Rev – it is your baby and we all think it’s wonderful and well worth supporting.
Yes indeed, congratulations and thanks to Mr C and all the other writers for their ongoing dedication to Scotland’s Future. It’s refreshing to read things in ‘straight talk’. A bit like that aptly named film Dolly Parton starred in.
The patter from YOU, the readers/commenters, is cracking too. There’s a real sense of wider community spirit a-going on here. You know who you all are. Kaunis Ecosse 😉
To use a poker term, I foresee our independence win going full-tilt aye, ALL in!
Excellent and surprisingly refreshing article by Kevin Mckenna ( link on site ). Where he talks up the need for WINGS and others. Looks like the Rev and indeed us, are making some headway.
Great stuff, Rev. Looking forward to seeing the stats for March, for the site that SPT didn’t want the public to see.
Linda Back, I hope you don’t mind but I copied your post and reposted elsewhere – it saved me a lot of time carving my way through the Munro crap – Thanks.
Have you been spending some of the money already, Rev?
I’ve just completed a survey for Panelbase which contained some ideas which sounded very familiar to a habitual Wings reader like myself. There was even a mocked-up ballot paper with a saltire and a union jack on it…
My efforts were rewarded with a payment of a few pence. Thank-you!
“Have you been spending some of the money already, Rev?
I’ve just completed a survey”
MIGHT have been…
Well, duh, he spent some of it on the Metro ads, so obviously he’s already out of the starting gate with it. 😀
Rev and Morag,
I answered all the questions honestly. It wasn’t until the latter half that suspicions began to creep in about who had commissioned the poll.
There were no leading or otherwise-dubious questions. Every thing felt clean and straightforward. Mystery Professor X has my admiration.
@Desimond (2.57 pm)
‘Furfuksake man, whit’r ye tryin’ tae dae teh us…?!’
No, seriously, thanks Desimond! I’d forgotten about that. Almost two years ago, now, when yer man Hothersall used to ‘contribute’ BTL here at Wings… Thankfully, he has ‘moved on’!
Cheers for now!
Mystery Professor X is obviously James Mitchell, Scotland’s other polling expert they don’t call on because he’s not a Labour fanboy. I think Stu actually said so at one point.
@handand shrimp.
Good description there.
Keep up the good work guys and the prize will be won.
Dare to dream of a fair Scotland
we suspect both we and you are just a little bit too working-class and vulgar
Speaking as a thoroughly upper class and unvulgar personage, I mightily object to being lumped in with the unwashed sons of toil 🙂
Seriously though, if we are going to take some kind of class warfare into an independent Scotland, we shall deserve what we get. It’s an outmoded and outdated way of looking at things, when what we should all be doing is putting our backs into creating a better country, no matter who we are or where we come from.
@ kininvie
The idea that a left/right divide or a class analysis is an “outmoded and outdated” way of looking at things is hardly new. You saw it in Thatcher’s contention that workers and employers were all on the same side: you saw it in Tony Blair’s third way: you saw it in Cameron’s “we are all in this together”. It is always and everywhere a right wing lie, as I see things. We do not all have the same interests and we never will. It is plain impossible for a shareholder or a businessman to want to maximise worker’s wages: or for a worker to want to maximise dividends and profit. This is because they all draw out of the same pot. There is some trading on the ambiguity of the word profit so as to lend a veneer of plausibility to this right wing narrative: they do not call dividends “wages” and they do not call the employer’s share “wages” either: so profit can refer to that latter share or it can refer to the money made by the enterprise itself: which is handy if you want to muddy the waters. Goes back to Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations, though he adopted different terms to analyse what was going on rather than to obscure it, as is done now
When you say we should be “putting our backs into creating a better country” you are using hurrah words which are useless unless you can demonstrate that we all agree what such a country looks like. Because no one can object to hurrah words and they don’t get you anywhere: everybody likes motherhood and apple pie
A neoliberal wants a better country: by which he means one with a very small role for the state and with an unfettered free market.
A social democrat wants a better country: by which he normally means a more equal society and with a large role for the state in a mixed economy
A communist wants a better country: by which he means one where private enterprise is unknown and central planning directs production “for use” rather than for profit
A green wants a better country: by which he means one which is predicated on sustainable consumption patterns and a priority on conservation and the environment
And on and on.
These aspirations are all sincere, and they are all irreconcilable. They all have some merit and the people who hold these views are not monsters (well except for neoliberals ;))
It seems to me that the period after the last war was our best model and that arose, I think, because the bulk of the people had learned that compromise was required, if war was to be avoided. There is no utopian state of any kind, because people do not have common interests. They really don’t. In order to imagine that they do, you have to believe that all right thinking people want the same things you do. A great many people do believe that, and only saints are completely free of that notion IMO. We have a limited capacity for empathy and our social experience is really rather narrow as well. But if we are to have a good enough society we must acknowledge that failing in ourselves.
If that is accepted then we have to have a mechanism whereby we can live together in peace and that means that nobody gets all they want. Democracy is our chosen way of achieving that. It seems to me inescapable that each of us is better informed about our own circumstances than about those of others: and that influences what we believe to be important. It also limits how far we can see the consequences of what we propose on the lives of those who are in different circumstances. We are not very good at that, even when we are trying: hell, we are not very good at seeing the consequences of what we do on ourselves, a lot of the time.
Thus democracy is not about some woolly notion of all working together: rather the opposite. It founds on a hypothesis that if everyone can have an equal influence on the uses of power, they will not be wholly exploited, for they will not allow that to happen, and they have the means to prevent it. They will have very different views of what is good and they will fight for their vision of the good society: and somewhere there will be a settlement we can all live with.
From that view of how it works lots of things follow: free speech is necessary; free association is necessary; many different power bases are necessary; many sources of information. It is messy and it entails class conflict, and social conflict, and any other kind of conflict which arises when people’s self interest has the potential to adversely affect others. It also entails cooperation and compromise and a respect for what other people tell you about how something you believe to be good is actually bad for them.
That is how I see it, anyway
@ Fiona,
Hope you are still around in this dead thread!
It’s ironic that we are debating this issue on a site, which, if it has one thing in common (apart from the desire for independence) is an (occasionally outraged) demand for truth and honesty from our representatives. I don’t give a shit where someone comes from or what their opinions are, provided they are honest.
But the minute you bring the language of class warfare into the debate, you start assuming that one position is somehow more worthy than another – not on grounds of rational or even partisan analysis – but purely on grounds of background…which in turn leads to lazy assumptions.
That’s the only point I was trying to make.
@ Kininvie
Sorry for the delay: I find the site so busy that responses are quickly buried so I miss them
I absolutely agree that we want truth and honesty from our representatives. That is part of my point. Genuine differences of circumstance exist and there is no fluffy bunny land where that is not true. So you have to ask yourself who benefits from pretending that we are all on the same side, when that is blatantly not the case? Who benefits from characterising their own position as that which is held by all right thinking people and, by implication, views dissenters as either liars or nutters?
Class is not a matter of stereotype: it is a matter of fact. If you are employed your interests do not coincide with those of employers or shareholders; they just don’t. That is the fundamental truth and it has to be faced and a compromise negotiated. That can only be done by acknowledging it; and by all sides then taking the debate to another level of analysis which recognises the claims of society as a whole as well as those of the indvidual.
To me it is part of the right wing analysis to promote the idea that individuals are the only unit which exists and “there is no such thing as society” is the slogan for that position. The aim of such a view is to atomise the opposition but be sure that those who control the wealth do not act as if they believe it. That is not a conspiracy: it is a natural consequence of the fact that they need not organise formally: their power and the coincidence of interest does the job. So it is very handy for them to oppose any alternative and organised power base: they portray that as subversive. In one sense they are right but there is no need to fall into “lazy assumptions” or into stereotyping, and that narrative suits them very well indeed
Let us honestly acknowledge that the plutocratic proposition that it is “not a zero sum game” is a lie. If we start there then we can try to tease out what any given policy means in terms of outcomes and test them against reality. If we do that then “trickle down” is quickly exposed as false, and the fact cannot be hidden as it has been by a focus on figures like GDP, which are abstractions with NO necessary implications for people’s lives.