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Things we told you would happen, part 99

Posted on December 19, 2019 by

Or to be more precise, wouldn’t happen.

It sucks being right all the time. But at least now, as we asked for, the lie is over. So that’s a good thing. We suppose we should celebrate, but we don’t feel much like it.

What the decision means is that the earliest realistic possible date for a second referendum is now the end of August 2021. Why? Because primary legislation takes several months to proceed through the Scottish Parliament at the best of times, and we can be sure that the Unionist parties would hold it up as much as they could.

(And all of this is of course making the HUGE and unwarranted assumption that the UK government was willing to play ball.)

But even if it got through as quickly as possible, we’d then be into the early months of 2021, and it would be beyond insane to hold an indyref with a general election due a few weeks afterwards at which the whole thing could be overturned.

So assuming it can’t happen before the election (6 May), and that all the legislation had been completed before the election and was ready to go, you’re looking at 10 weeks after that (minimum campaign period), which is late August 2021.

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    1. 19 12 19 23:56

      Things we told you would happen, part 99 | speymouth

    199 to “Things we told you would happen, part 99”

    1. Capella says:

      Well hang on a minute. 31st January Westminster leaves EU. 1st Feb Scot Gov launches referendum process. I make 9 months from that October 2020. (that’s accepting this 26 week shenanigan).

    2. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Read the bloody words. The bill would require further primary legislation, which takes months, on top of that minimum 36 weeks.

      https://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/Education/18641.aspx

    3. Capella says:

      Well does that not depend on the complexity of the legislation? What about one line “The date of the referendum is 20th October and we’ve already said the question will be the same as last time. All those in favour.”

      And could this not run in tandem with the process? A lot depends on definitions.

    4. kapelmeister says:

      If it’s only an EC recommendation then it’s not something that has to be strictly observed. A recommendation is by definition something the recommendee – if that’s a word – is not obliged to follow.

    5. robertknight says:

      How legislation proceeds through Holyrood isn’t the issue…

      How legislation proceeds, or not, through Westminster is!

    6. Smeddum says:

      Please remember it’s not just about holding a referendum, It’s about winning it. There is work to be done on that. Independence supporters may be agitating about getting on with indyref2 but not everyone in Scotland is convinced of the wisdom of that. And it’s not the SNP’s fault that they don’t. They may be English, they may be against the EU, they may be Tories, they may simply be stuck in the view that it’s safer to stick with the UK – yes, I know!

      So it may get easier once the difficulties of being out of the EU hit home. It takes time.

    7. Dan Watt says:

      Stu do you have a prefared month for holding a referendum and why? Was the election turn out low this time round despite being in December?

    8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Well does that not depend on the complexity of the legislation? What about one line “The date of the referendum is 20th October and we’ve already said the question will be the same as last time. All those in favour.”

      And could this not run in tandem with the process? A lot depends on definitions.”

      Sigh. No. READ THE DAMN LINK.

    9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Stu do you have a prefared month for holding a referendum and why? Was the election turn out low this time round despite being in December?”

      Turnout was only a couple of points lower than 2017. But that was luck. Imagine if Scotland was under 6 inches of snow for indyref2. Quite a gamble to take.

      Ideally I like May for a date, weather’s pretty safe and people are in a more optimistic frame of mind. But obviously May 2021 is a non-starter, so the earliest you can realistically aim for is 10 weeks after the Holyrood election, ie late August 2021.

    10. crazycat says:

      @ kapelmeister at 11.31

      If it’s only an EC recommendation then it’s not something that has to be strictly observed

      The highlighted passage says that the recommendation has been accepted.

      Therefore, it is no longer a recommendation (made by the Electoral Commission) but a clause in the bill – is that not so?

    11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Therefore, it is no longer a recommendation (made by the Electoral Commission) but a clause in the bill – is that not so?”

      It is so.

    12. Capella says:

      I’ve reread the links, to the Guardian article and to the “How a Bill gets passed” article but am still not convinced. BUT will sleep on it and return to it tomorrow.

    13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      You may wish to pay special attention to this bit:

      “Once a bill has been passed there is a four week period when the bill may be challenged by the Advocate General, the Lord Advocate or the Attorney General or by the Secretary of State for Scotland.

      This would normally occur if the bill is deemed to be outside the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament (i.e. not a devolved matter) or if it would adversely affect reserved matters, or the Parliament wishes to reconsider the bill.”

    14. Mist001 says:

      Being right all the time is actually a curse. I know this from personal experience and I sympathise with you.

    15. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Things that we told you would happen. Part 99.”
      .

      Yes, but at some point there WILL be a referendum.

      Please can I ask that some attention be focussed upon BORIS JOHNSON?

      I read the earlier post about the Referendum Bill being discussed today and the answer: “So fucking what”.

      There are serious things happening just now. For example…

      – ScotGov and the GRA. Getting crucial and important coverage here.

      – UK Welfare reform deaths. Maybe 5% coverage.

      – IndyRef2. Perhaps 60% coverage.

      – UK Tory Govt. Approx 15% coverage. Including a Chris Cairns contribution which was excellent.

      – UK Tory Queens Speech. 0% coverage.

      Yes Trans/GRA is vey important. I am NOT arguing against that. But as a Scot who believes we NEED Independence to survive the next 10 to 15 years of hard right Tory rule.


      I just watched Boris Johnson steal the clothes of the SNP in the Queens Speech today.

      I hope and pray to my own particular Diety that Stuart is researching one of the articles most of us come on here to read and digest.

      I switched from Labour to voting SNP primarily because the SNP RAN THE ECONOMY WELL after it won the Holyrood elections. A LOT of good policies have come from the SNP, but not half as much lately. The most focussed is McBrexit and saving the English from Brexit.

      Here is a thing that I hope with all my heart Stuart can find some time to analyse PLEASE…

      Today it became apparent Boris Johnson WILL adopt the SNP playbook. As George Foulkes once guffed about he SNP enacting policies the voters actually wanted, especially…

      “BUT THEY ARE DOING IT DELIBERATELY”.

      Stuart, there is a REAL danger here that Boris and his cronies will be in office for 10 years, possibly even 15 years and SCOTLAND IS IMPOTENT to do anything. Boris gave notice today that the Labour electorate in the north of England who LENT THEIR VOTES TO THE TORIES will be looked after by the new ONE NATION Conservatives. Sound familiar? The SNP asked (ex)Labour people like me to lend my vote to the SNP. The Tories are a BIG problem, but there is little forensic analysis in that direction.

      The solution is to URGENTLY start investigating BoJo with a similar aim to the American Democrats loathing of Trump. The UK equivalent of impeachment.


      Scotland needs to get Johnson in court to answer for all his lies and deceit.

      Boris Johnson hates Scotland. He makes no secret of the fact.

      Unless sites like WoS start taking an interest in today’s Queens Speech and Boris killing off IndyRef2 with impunity, then frankly not much else matters.

      GRA is important, but it will become irrelevant. How do I know? Well the UK and 90% of the able bodied population give the response to disabled ccuunts like me that you just gave on the earlier thread when asked by Gerry about the Referendum Bill: “So fucking what?”

      So fucking what if 120,000 cripples were killed off prematurely?

      So fucking what if the Referendum Bill was debated at Holyrood?

      So fucking what if the biggest danger to Scotland just gave his speech for the Queen to read today?

      Yes GRA and the trans atrocity is hellish and important, but there are some of us who have bigger worries, such as why has another one of my disabled friends been killed off today by the Dickensian Tory ar5ewhipe DWP?

      Big Stu., I BEG you for a little more balance with your articles and research.

      If in doubt that Tories kill cripples…

      http://www.calumslist.org

    16. Sharny Dubs says:

      The old Empire strategy played to perfection, kick it down the road, cause distraction, change leaders, have a “snap election” yadda yadda yadda, adnausea. And here we are facing another Scottish election before Ref2 is possible (oh dear how did that happen!) Think what they managed in the last Scottish election!

      If the SNP was run on a company basis, heads should roll for being played so well.

      Sorry to be so down! But f…..

    17. Capella says:

      Is “primary legislation” always a bill? If so, stages for a one line bill could be very short if the main referendum bill is already law and all that has to be added is the date? I believe Mike Russell has already said the question has been tried and tested many times so a lengthy scrutiny period is not necessary.

      I’m not a lawyer – but Nicola Sturgeon is.

    18. Capella says:

      BTW I’m always right as well. I once thought I was wrong but I was mistaken. 🙂

    19. Den Cairns says:

      Think somebody’s losing the plot – sorry their way. And it ain’t me.

    20. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I’m not a lawyer – but Nicola Sturgeon is.”

      She hasn’t been a lawyer for a long time, and she was never a constitutional one.

    21. Onwards says:

      “It sucks being right all the time”

      Well, it was increasingly clear it wasn’t going to happen until Brexit played out and Scotland was shat on once again.

      I do think you’ve helped the indy side dodge a future bullet, at high personal cost, on the self-ID thing. The average person didn’t have much interest at all. Still could have held back a bit during the election, but I really don’t see it getting pushed through now, especially with the backlash to the Neale Hanvey shenanigans. Consultation is first step to delay. Even JK is speaking against it now!

    22. Balaaargh says:

      It must be hellish being perfect… ?

    23. MaggieC says:

      Going off topic here but I see the “ woke “ group within the Snp are now going after Marky Booth instigated by https://mobile.twitter.com/MammothWhale/status/1207652045135794176 and this is being denied by Marky on his twitter – https://mobile.twitter.com/MarkyBooth97/status/1207699698200588288

      Also Arthur Stramash’s twitter was suspended and a while ago the twitter account of
      @Hoops_hawns_aff which was for Hand off our Parliament ( Holyrood ) was also suspended which was very much for Scottish Independence .

      I’ll just leave this thought here – Just makes one wonder who or what organisations are behind these attacks on pro Indy twitter accounts . Funny how most of all the woke brigade are mainly university students or graduates ,
      Do MI5/MI6 still do all their recruiting at universities ?

    24. MaggieC says:

      Re my previous post that should have read – * Hands * off our Parliament .

    25. Joe says:

      @ Maggie C

      The woke brigade are at uni because our universities have been turned into neo marxist brainwashing institutions paid for by our taxes. But students soon become lawyers, doctors and politicians…and the poison spreads even more deeply. Then we wonder what went wrong

    26. Joe says:

      The enormity of whats been going on is pretty breathtaking. Thanks to years of infiltration our educational institutions are spewing out people who put the drive for impossible equality over the personal rights of individuals. Its happened before. It always ends up in a total fuckfest of destruction.

    27. Stephen Armstrong says:

      What is the problem with an Independence Referendum and a Holyrood Election being held on the same day, in May 2021? If we win both then we have a DOUBLE-MANDATE!

    28. Joe says:

      Off topic but of interest. Someone mentioned impeachment

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA–dj2-CY

      This is Joe Biden describing himself doing what they are impeaching Trump for.

      The media is not your friend.

    29. Sharny Dubs says:

      Marxism failed, killed millions in Russia, China, Cambodia and so on. Made the Nazis look like amateurs. What’s left has morphed into a force that only knows how to destroy and offers nothing in replacement.
      They use any tool, that come to hand.

    30. mr thms says:

      The UK’s Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 created a problem with the holding of the election to the Scottish parliament.

      The date clashed with the holding of an election to the UK parliament.

      So the date was changed.

      However, responsibility for elections to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish councils was devolved in the Scotland Act 2016.

      The UK is leaving the EU on the 31st January and will be in a ‘transitional arrangement’ until the 31st December 2020.

      So, in my opinion, it would make sense to hold the next Scottish Parliament elections on the 7th May 2020, and the next Scottish Council elections on the 6th May 2021.

      Strike while the iron is hot!

    31. mr thms says:

      And if I recall correctly, the selection of List MSPs does not necessarily have to be based on the regional vote. It can be based on the national vote.

      A ‘snap’ Scottish election, combined with a new process for selecting List MSPs could result in a SNP a majority.

      The UK Government would have to concede to to a Section 39 Order.

    32. Breeks says:

      Not saying you’re wrong, but a country can go to all out shooting war with its neighbour in a day, and every Treaty and protocol, even a specific anti-aggression pact, becomes obsolete and swept away in a moment. In a state of emergency, everything changes. All it takes is the will. All it takes is the provocation.

      But unfortunately for Scotland, a state of emergency, which in my opinion should easily include the imminent threat of Brexit and Scotland’s subjugation, doesn’t come in “gold standards”, and it would seem the Scottish Government would need a belt or two from a defibrillator to start giving a fk that Scotland being Brexited is actually Constitutionally unlawful, and represents the widest possible open goal to justify a legal argument that the Treaty of Union has been irremediably breached by wanton colonial aggression, undemocratic and unconstitutional subjugation, and unlawful usurpation of Scotland’s sovereignty.

      But instead of spending the last three years laying a minefield of Constitutional red lines and ultimatums, I believe Alyn Smith has abandoned his EU seat and given up on Scotland actually resisting Brexit. So “don’t abandon us because Scotland didn’t abandon you” has kinda evolved into “we’re only gonna abandon you temporarily”, but I doubt very much there’d be a standing ovation in the house just for that. Quite obviously it really was just something he made up on the spot.

      Next AUOB March maybe I’ll leave my Saltire with Euro Stars at home, and take along a pink, fluffy My Pony baseball bat wrapped in barbed wire. Maybe then the 100 of us left alive will be listened to in the corridors of Holyrood, and in time to save our Nation from economic catastrophe and unconstitutional humiliation, and our European friends and neighbours from being treated like livestock if they can’t pay to stay.

      Maybe Scotland’s new National anthem should be Scotland the Brave… just for the fucking irony of it.

    33. Breeks says:

      The actions of a courageous democracy…

      “This morning the British Ambassador Scottish First Minister in Berlin Edinburgh handed the German Westminster Government a final note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o’clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland abandon Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation and undemocratic removal from Europe, a state of war Union would cease to exist between us. I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war no longer in a state of Union with Germany England.

      No referendum required. Just a wee bit steely resolve, and enough backbone to defend core principle.

    34. holidayh says:

      You know what would be nice? If every Holyrood ballot paper from now on had an extra question on it:

      “I agree there should be an independence referendum held during the next session of parliament. [Yes/No]”

      Solves these circular arguments about whose mandate’s the biggest, whose bus said what, votes v seats etc… Surely that’s the easiest way to be sure if a majority is happy with ongoing union, and to trigger an indyref if it isn’t?

    35. Liz g says:

      While not that I noticed mentioned yesterday Rev…..
      Mike Russell has said that there would be arrangements in place to “Accelerate” a Referendum Bill through Holyrood if it were required!
      I can’t tell if that’s been quietly dropped, but your probably right, absent a galvanizing event where the Scottish people are in an uproar for the Referendum they’ll probably plod along till Autumn 2021….
      Bloody fool’s….

    36. Robert Louis says:

      Breeks,

      An excellent posting. I wholly agree, in your argument that brexit should not even be getting tolerated. It is, as you say, utter subjugation, and the fact is, if the Scotgov were prepared to actually fight for Scotland’s consitutional rights, it would NOT be happening. Indeed, upon 31st Jan 2020, Scotland would AND LEGALLY SHOULD become independent of England.

      Your final point;

      “Maybe Scotland’s new National anthem should be Scotland the Brave… just for the fucking irony of it.”

      Is simply magnificent. I do sometimes wonder how much better things would be with somebody with the bravado of Alex Salmond were leading the SNP. I just find NS too weak. I mean, here is a classic example, just from this week, when asked whether she would insist upon a permanent power to hold referenda, she explained that she would be keen to discuss this, and look at ideas etc.. I mean, when you go into talks with a lying thug like Johnson, you go in hard. You do not start to weaken your position before talks even begin. NS in response to the question, should have said, YES, of course we want that power permanently, next question.

      I do sometimes seriously wonder if ANYBODY in the SNP has had any training whatsoever in negotiations.

      And now, to top it all, it seems like indyref will not be held in 2020, and here’s the thing, if correct, then NS KNEW that to be the case when she promised indy supporters at George Square, just a few short weeks ago.

      Delay, delay, delay, instead of standing firm, that Scotland did not vote to leave the EU, and will NOT be leaving the EU. They just do not seem to have any stomach for a fight. All just too cosy in their jobs, playing at Government, introducing idiotic gender legislation nobody wants, while Scotland get shafted by the biggest English lying Tory c**t in history.

    37. Robert Louis says:

      Just in reference to my above posting, and the article. It is now abundantly clear, that Scotland needs a NEW pro independence party. The SNP now look like they are quite happy to let Scotland be taken out of the EU wholly against its wishes, and to sit idly back, waiting forever for the polls to magically change, all by themselves. Maybe indyref by 2050???

      Are the SNP going the same way as Labour in Scotland, treating voters like fools? By recent evidence, and if the above article is correct, then YES.

    38. scotspatriot says:

      Robert Louis

      The Tory stance on refusing a referendum is unsustainable . Hang together.
      Dividing political allegiances is rank stupidity. Hang apart .
      Now is not the time for petulance.

    39. Big Jock says:

      I think Wings has turned into the” Stu I told you so site” He was wring about the election and will be wrong about Indy ref 2. Scunnered with this inflated ego trip. What the feck has happened to this place!

    40. frogesque says:

      Giving up on Wings for a bit. Not because of anything said is either right or wrong.

      It’s just getting too bloody depressing.

      I’ll still be going on marches, painting YES Stones and waving flags on bridges. It might or might not bring Indy closer but it does no harm and !make ME feel a lot better.

      Other half’s sight is failing ( macular degeneration) and bugger all can be done about it so for the moment I’m done with the negativity. The shit is getting inside my head and I’m away for a good dump.

      Play nicely children.

    41. orri says:

      You’re probably right unless they go for broke and put down the bill as soon as an S30 is refused or ignored. Theoretically they could go for 30th November which ensures that as it’s a Monday will not conflict with any other election.

    42. John Thomson says:

      I may be simple, but everything he says has a ring of truth at some point we are all going to face the hard facts.

      What then?

      If only we had a political party with the balls to stand up to english MPs because that is what this boils down to.

      Them and us it really is that simple.

      The wings party needs to be ready and we should all get behind it for HR elections 2021 as this whole mess is just going to run.

      SLAB is in a mess and will likely split with those getting behind indyref 2 and it is possible that all unionist parties will band together for HR 2021 elections causing even more problems and if we do not have a credible plan to take list seats then we deserve all the shit that’s coming.

      Don’t anyone say he hasn’t warned us.

    43. Rick H Johnston says:

      What exactly is the required 26 week lead-in period?
      The GE was called and voted on in just a few weeks. Is this new?
      Or just applicable for a referendum.

    44. Capella says:

      Just heard my MP Andrew Bowie CON tell Ian Blackford in the HoC to “fix you own backyard before coming down here”. That’s nice. So we’re a backyard in his opinion.

      https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1207752197225820160?s=20

    45. Capella says:

      @ Rick Johnston – I haven’t read the detail yet, nor the Referendum bill. But I would think any consultation requirement has been met. We’ve just had a mass consultation of the entire adult population and been solidly endorsed.

    46. One_Scot says:

      Looks like we and Scotland are well and truly fucked.

      Happy Christmas everyone! 🙁

    47. Mark says:

      I believe the SNP should resign government at Holyrood in protest if Tories take Scotland out of the EU against is’s will and force an election in Scotland with the single issue of independence.

    48. Abulhaq says:

      An idea caught at the flood tide is unstoppable….how many flood tides does Scotland need?
      However, are some in the SNP secretly operating the sluice gates to prevent such a flood.
      Cui bono?

    49. Athanasius says:

      I’m Irish, and, as you know, we have some experience in separating from England. Taking this development in tandem with the SNP’s woke agenda into account, am I correct in my assumption that Scots — or at least the SNP — really aren’t all that serious about independence?

    50. Terry callachan says:

      To those who say they are always right

      Are you not the same people who for the last eight weeks have been telling us
      that the SNP would not increase their seats in the Westminster GE
      because of their review of the gender recognition act 2004 ?

    51. Terry callachan says:

      Athanasius…are you an Irish man living in Ireland ?

    52. Terry callachan says:

      Can the ten week period
      And the 26 week period overlap

    53. Bob Mack says:

      We are not fecked. Stu has been pointing this out for a !ong time now and has been called every name under the sun for doing so by people who refused to believe their dream was going to be delayed.

      Make no mistake people, Wextminster will scrutinise Primzry legislation endlessly(if at all).

      Nobody should be surprised given whzt we have been hearing over the last few months from Boris and the Tories about no to another referendum.

      This is not the time to run away and be despondent. When the going gets tough,the tough get going.

      Forget words of comfort and soothing sentences. They have no place here. This is a drag down, winner takes all fight now,
      and you better have the stomach for it.

    54. Abulhaq says:

      It is axiomatic that a liberation movement such as that in Scotland which threatens the territorial integrity of the British state will have been penetrated by agents of that state.
      To what extent is anyones guess.
      While we all pay homage to the concept of democracy, we must recognise that democracy is imperfect and capable of manipulation. The British state, when the chips are down, manipulates with professed expertise. As we have just seen. That that expertise may now be deployed in Scotland ought not to surprise.
      We are a nation. A nation of heroes led by donkeys or a nation of lions hungry for freedom?
      Scotland is not the first nation on the planet to ask that fundamental question.
      All are now free.

    55. Terry callachan says:

      Stand up for the SNP

      It is the SNP that has got us where we are now
      Independence MPs a majority elected to Holyrood and a majority elected to Westminster

      There are always dozens and dozens of opinions ready to shoot down the SNP
      for all sorts of reasons
      some nothing to do with Scottish independence
      some nothing to do with Scotland

      Westminster’s reach is far and wide it’s corruption well reported

      But your vote is your vote

      If you voted SNP
      If you want Scottish independence
      Don’t be swayed or distracted by anything and I do mean anything

      You and your country are powerless at present
      You and Scotland only get to do what England’s Westminster allows

      This is about taking back control
      Control of your country , your life , your children’s future your grandchildren’s future
      Your own future

      WOS is the only place where you can discuss views openly
      That means you see all sorts of views
      Some are whacky
      But that’s healthy
      We need to hear all opinions

      I don’t agree with WOS again on this

      I believe SNP and Nicola Sturgeon who ads things stand say there will be an Indy ref 2020

      Until they say otherwise I believe them
      So should you

    56. Joris Bonsi says:

      Please tell me why a referendum is needed at all.

      I’m very old.
      I don’t remember referendums being required in the seventies…even old mother Thatcher told everyone that as soon as the Scots sent a majority of independence MPs to Westminster, independence was assured.

      Seemed sensible.

    57. Republicofscotland says:

      If this really is the case, then depending on how long the EU withdrawal transition period is, the actual Holyrood parliament might be in danger of becoming Stormontised by Westminster.

      We could see the new staging posts (The Hub etc) opening up in Scotland, and syphon powers away from our own parliament, as Johnson roll back devolution.

    58. Al Hunter says:

      Well if that’s the way it is shaping up – we best get weaving! The time soon goes in.

    59. One_Scot says:

      Jeez, listening to Boris Johnson talking right now into House of Commons makes me want to slit my wrists. 🙁

    60. Joris Bonsi says:

      Old Arthur Scargill & Co. were penetrated……by MI5…

      by his close colleagues as it were….

      The Flying Pickets (wottaband) were headed off at the pass, by the agents of the state, relaying to PC Plod, all the nefarious naughtyness
      Do not underestimate public school education, in cahoots with the awful lickspittles of the working class.
      It’s a powerful cocktail.

    61. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Have tried (twice) to post the following link.

      It’s to a ‘safety-net’ platform some of us are signing-up to in case we get Twitter bans:

      mastodon.social/web/timelines/home

    62. Bob Mack says:

      @Terry Callachan,

      I vote for the SNP, and will do until another Indy party comes along. This whole episode has been badly managed. That is evident. Brexit was a golden opportunity. Whoever defined SNP strategy got it badly wrong, and before you say it, I do not think Nicola was solely in charge. I tend to look towards Mr Murrell in that regard.

      Regardless, the fight is renewed. It ultimately matters not who did what and when, only that we learn from it and move on.

    63. mike cassidy says:

      As a carryover from the last theme

      It looks like they’re after biology now.

      https://twitter.com/edwardlord/status/1207585047295004674

    64. Colin Alexander says:

      If there’s any chance YES could win, the UK state is no gonnae give permission for one anyway.

      And the current SNP leadership, and the FM in particular, absolutely insist indy can only be by UK state cooperation and consent. eg probably NEVER under those circumstances.

      ————————————————

      The SNP learned the lesson for 2019: the SNP MUST talk indy or 500,000 YES voters will not vote SNP. So, for 2019 the SNP talked indy just enough for the Yessers, and won big time. 2019 was arguably the first HUGE pro-indyref GE win. ( The previous high of 2015 was about Devo-Max being delivered and in 2017 the SNP wouldn’t say the I word at all).

      ——————————
      So, what now? The SNP now know Yessers no longer give the SNP unquestioning support. The SNP MUST be seen to be pushing for indy.

      Will Boris quickly formally reject indyref2? He probably wants to but, the Scottish Imperials will advise him not to. They fear the new fresh impetus of the Yes movement. They were shocked and frightened by the scale of the SNP win. They don’t want to confront the SNP now over indy despite all the tough talk.

      It would suit the SNP and Tories to kick the can down the road to 2021. The Tories can argue they’ve stopped indyref2. The SNP can argue the SNP tried to deliver on the mandates for indyref2 and the UK State wouldnae let them, so blame the UK and vote SNP again in 2021 for another Holyrood indyref mandate.

      ——————————
      It all depends on whether the SNP think they can get away with blaming the Tories or will indy supporters feel betrayed and blame the SNP for the wasted MANDATES for indyref2?
      ——————————
      What’s clearer than ever before: we need a single issue DISSOLVE THE UNION party. A party the SNP know Yessers can turn to if the SNP do capitulate on indyref2. The SNP having already capitulated on keeping Scotland in the EU and relying on blaming the Tories for the SNP’s failure to successfully defend Scotland’s EU membership.
      —————————-
      We need a party that seeks a mandate to declare the Union dissolved ( perhaps followed by a confirmatory Scottish state referendum based on adopting a constitution that declares Scotland an independent state).

    65. One_Scot says:

      Ian Blackford playing a blinder right now in the HoC, well done.

    66. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “He was wring about the election”

      In what way was I “wring” about it?

    67. Dave Hansell says:

      Al-Stuart 12:16:

      “The solution is to URGENTLY start investigating BoJo with a similar aim to the American Democrats loathing of Trump. The UK equivalent of impeachment.”

      No argument there.

      However, the problem to this route can be found on page 48 of the recent Tory GE Manifesto. The key paragraph at the end of the section “Protecting our democracy.”:

      “We will ensure that judicial review is available to individuals against an overbearing state, whilst ensuring it is not abused to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays.”

      There only individual and their rights Johnson is thinking about here are those of himself.

      The objective is to ensure that any loophole, legal, constitutional or otherwise which allows anyone like Gina Miller to challenge his right to do anything he wants is closed off.

      Even under May the Tory party were more than willing to apply across the board Henry VIII powers (based on the 1532 Statute of Declarations principles) to enable Ministers to change, amend, strike off or introduce legislation without any Parliamentary scrutiny in order to change four decades of EU legislation into UK (Greater England) law.

      Already Johnson has signalled that workers rights will not be part of any trade deals. Don’t anticipate much, if any at all, of that going the normal Parliamentary scrutiny route – despite the seat majority enjoyed by this Eton Cabal.

      Once that loophole is closed there will be no ability of any individual or institution throughout the UK to utilise judicial review of prevent any action of Johnson up to and including impeachment.

      In those circumstances history has demonstrated there is only one available route to sanity. I don’t know about anyone else but my next project is to learn how to knit (but there’s no way I’m ever changing my pronoun for anyone)

    68. Breeks says:

      From Twitter….

      }Joanna Cherry QC
      @joannaccherry
      ·
      1h
      Unbelievable!
      @BorisJohnson
      wants no select committee scrutiny until March! This is some of the most important & effective work MPs do. Why not just prorogue parliament altogether? Or maybe he needs get his legislation to hamstring the courts through first?”

      Unbelievable! Will we really still be shackled to this madhouse two months AFTER they wreck our EU Citizenship and subjugate our Sovereign democracy?

      Can I mibees get my vote back? I made a mistake. I want to spoil my ballot now.

    69. Effijy says:

      As various posts report on what Bojo the Clown said
      Can I just remind everyone that he is a proven serial liar!

      Sacked from different jobs for being a liar.

      In adultery, another pastime, he must have honed his lying
      Skills on his wife and other partners.

      His Tory henchmen try to keep him away from interviews as
      He cannot help himself from making up now lies on the hoof.

      His words are as valid as any lost soul locked up in a padded cell.

      Liar, Cheat, Adulterer, Absent Father, Bully, Buffoon and Obnoxious is England’s Boris!

    70. mike cassidy says:

      Joe 2.04am

      The woke brigade are at uni because our universities have been turned into neo marxist brainwashing institutions paid for by our taxes. But students soon become lawyers, doctors and politicians…and the poison spreads even more deeply. Then we wonder what went wrong

      Agreed.

      I don’t know how we’re going to cope being run by the university-educated neomarxists like Johnson, Raab, Patel etc

    71. North chiel says:

      After yesterday’s “ speeches” by Carlaw and Rennie , be in no doubt that the “ British state” will be fully mobilised to deny the SNP a majority ( singularly or with Green support), at the next Holyrood election in 2021, ( or before the scheduled date?). It seems to me that there is an urgent need for the wider “YES” movement to form a new political party to contest the List vote . ( ie SNP 1 /YES 2 ) . This would ensure an Independence majority at Holyrood and I am of the opinion that a YES Party would have a much wider grass roots appeal than a “ Wings” Party ( sorry Stu) ,or the Greens.
      Also , with the prospect of no section 30 agreement with Westminster over the coming months , might the proposition of a Holyrood election mandating a straight sovereign vote on ending the treaty of union come into play?

    72. Normski says:

      Best get your plans for the Wings List Party underway.

    73. Abulhaq says:

      The British state’s pm was seen checking his phone during the SNP’s reply to the queen’s speech.
      A potent disdainful sign from the establishment that we’ve been here before mister, you huffed and puffed then and you huff and puff now. You just don’t scare us. Get your balls back Scotland and then we might, just might take you seriously…..oh deary me!

    74. ghostly606 says:

      2nd last paragraph it’s the Scottish Parliament elections, not a GE. Minor point with no impact on the piece. Hard to argue with what is said.

    75. Meg merrilees says:

      Just a thought – anyone who argues that the recent election shows the same figures of 55% backing the Union 45% backing Indy should be reminded that 16-18 year olds are not allowed the vote in a GE , nor EU citizens so the figures pro Indy are definitely higher than 45%. Send them home to think about it….

    76. Iain More says:

      Due to SNP treachery I am emigrating. There is no way the ("Tractor" - Ed)s in Scotland are going to allow a pro Indy majority at the next Scots Parly elections. Cheerio folks.

    77. Capella says:

      Ian Blackford’s face a picture as Theresa May screeches in the HoC that Scotland WILL NOT BE ALLOWED to join the EU.

      https://twitter.com/RobDunsmore/status/1207957842277347329?s=20

    78. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – link to a video explainer “What is Mastodon” which I haven’t had time to watch yet. Busy time of year!
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=IPSbNdBmWKE&feature=emb_logo

    79. Ron Maclean says:

      When Scottish unionist MPs arrive at Westminster their work is done. When SNP MPs reach Westminster their work should just be beginning.

      We have been unquestioning volunteers in an unequal political system for over three hundred years. We renewed our ‘Vow’ in 2014. After five fruitless years our only realistic means of escape has just finished campaigning to ensure preservation of the system. What happens now – continue to accept the Queen’s shilling with five more profitable (for some) years of missing-in-inaction and knowing our place?

      As collaborators will we ever be ‘allowed’ to change or leave the system?

      “Oh, the crystal chandeliers light up the paintings on your wall
      The marble statuettes are standing stately in the hall …”

    80. William Habib Steele says:

      In light of the intransigence demonstrated in the Queen’s Speech, the Scottish MPs must now withdraw from Westminster, unite with the Scottish Parliament and resile the Treaty of Union with England and revoke the Act of Union. Under International Law they have that right. No Prime Minister of England, who has no mandate in Scotland, and no Queen of England, who as far as Scotland is concerned, reigns by the will of the People of Scotland, have the right to decide what the People of Scotland may choose.

      The resiling of the Treaty and the revocation of the Act should be followed by a confirmatory referendum.

      The oath of loyalty that the Scottish MPs took was to the Queen, not the Prime Minister, nor the English Government of the UK. The Queen is not the Sovereign in Scotland. She reigns under the sovereignty of the People of Scotland. It’s time for the People of Scotland to withdraw her right to reign in Scotland unless she submits to the will of the People of Scotland.

    81. Time to get back on your horse, Stu.
      Hobby horses are for children.
      There is a war to be won.

    82. Effijy says:

      Should Indy Ref 2 be delayed with dither and dissent until 2021,
      I recall that year being nominated as the sweet spot for Indy ref 2
      As many of the scaremongered pensioners would have departed and
      The numbers of younger voters keen to control their own countries future
      Will have taken their place.

      I am fairly content that the true process towards independence has begun
      And is now unstoppable.

    83. Liz g says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 11.13
      Exactly Meg and there’s no way the EU Scots were going to vote for a Brexit party…
      I’m certainly not giving up,the SNP have said 2020 and I expect them to stick to that.
      It’s their job to make it happen but it’s our job to insist they do.
      I’m also feeling more positively about the damage to Indy the Gender thing had the potential to do.
      Jo Swinson caught the flack that could have gone Nicola’s way and it hit public awareness through an English Court and Jakey Rowling,not through the Indy campaign.
      At least now on the door step we can say it’s an issue no matter if you vote Yes or No with a bit of credibility….

      So… 2020 it is…. Or there’s a shit load of voter’s going to want to know why? 🙂

    84. jfngw says:

      @Capella

      If you just join Mastodon then you are under the rules of whoever created that instance. What you really need to do is set up a yesindy instance server whose rules is controlled by the Yes group. You can still interact with other instances.

      It’s not that hard to do but really needs someone with IT experience to set it up and a server that is probably a VPS if the traffic level is high. You could run one from a house but I think your IP will start to complain about the usage, plus most home account are still limited by the policies of the IP regarding content.

    85. Abulhaq says:

      Read this.
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/20/union-boris-johnson-snp-nationalist-parties-northern-ireland
      Shape of things to come.
      Ladies and gentleman the messy showdown approaches.
      Not quite the time for niceness!

    86. robertknight says:

      Just wondering how long it’ll be before we can get shot of this false prospectus that another referendum, requiring legislation to be passed by both Houses of the UK Parliament AND the Scottish Parliament, will be the only legal means of securing Indy.

      For if it is indeed the only legal means then I’m pretty sure, were f’d!

    87. Philip Maughan says:

      If your timescale is correct, then September 2021 is a likely date. That would be 7 years exactly since Indyref1 and in line with the minimum period between Irish reunification referenda as stated in the Good Friday Agreement.

    88. Gary45% says:

      O’brien on LBC Scottish Indy phone in.
      Over to the troops to educate the southern shires.

    89. cirsium says:

      I understood that the FM said that Westminster would receive formal notification about the referendum before 25 December 2019. Have I misunderstood?

    90. Abulhaq says:

      The SNP strategists linked independence to fighting Brexit. We had years of it.
      Now we have independence alone. As it should be.
      Independence ought to be a no brainer, who would seriously opt for subordinacy, marginalization, irrelevance, oblivion….
      300+ years a virtual colony and still we have doubters!

    91. Bob Mack says:

      @Albuhaq,

      Do you believe that preparing the route to Independence as an option to Brexit was a wrong thing to do? I cannot believe that the SNP were incalable of doing both simultaneously.

    92. John H. says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      20 December, 2019 at 11:13 am

      Don’t forget, many Labour supporters and even some tories would likely vote for independence. Even though they would never vote SNP.

    93. Athanasius says:

      Terry Callachan – Irish, currently living in Ireland, married to a Scot and moving there (hopefully) in the next few years.

    94. Effijy says:

      There was a “gross failure” in the care of a women who died from sepsis after a three hour ambulance wait outside A&E, an inquest has found.

      Samantha Brousas, 49, from Gresford, Wrexham, Labour’s NHS Wales, died on 23 February 2018, two days after she was forced to wait outside Wrexham Maelor Hospital.

      Coroner Joanne Lees issued a prevention of future deaths report to the Welsh Ambulance Service.

      I’m sure Welsh TV will be running the Scottish Pigeon Story?

    95. Effijy says:

      I see the next governor of the Bank of ENGLAND, the mistakenly labeled bank of the UK made up of 2 equal partners who have never been equal or anything like it, has just been named.

      The name doesn’t matter but he is one of the Cambridge Mafia running the country.

      He and old Bojo I’m sure are well acquainted.

      I liked Mark Carney as he was always uncomfortable when the Tories asked him to lie, mislead or mask issues for them.

      Wouldn’t it be a good move for the Scottish Government to embrace him as a consultant and guide us as we take on our own currency.

      Think he would know exactly the true state of the bank and how the Tories manipulate them and the stats.

      He has some Irish blood and I’m sure a soft spot for his Celtic Cousins.

    96. Iain More says:

      Re Effijy I had sepsis last year and Scottish NHS saved my life but Yoons and Quislings aren’t interested in such good news stories.

    97. Iain More says:

      SNP can’t afford to wait till 2021. The Yoons and Quislings will not allow an Indy Majority of any combination at next Scots Parly elections. In other words we are fucked.

    98. Fireproofjim says:

      My wife is just back home from ten days in the Edinburgh Western General Hospital after being treated for sepsis caused by a kidney stone.
      She collapsed and I dialled 999. Within ten minutes the paramedics were working on her and had diagnosed sepsis and she was rushed to A&E. The paramedics kept the hospital informed by radio and when we arrived a team was waiting and she was immediately put on several different antibiotics.
      Within two hours she was put through a scanner and the kidney stone discovered.
      She was transferred to the Urology department and within twelve hours of my 999 call an operation was carried out to drain the infected kidney.
      The following ten days were spent in recovery with superb nursing care.
      That’s our Scottish NHS. Could not be better.

    99. James F. McIntosh says:

      I would expect Mr. Blackford to resign at the end of January as he said Scotland would not be taken out of the EU. Against our will. I would expect Nicola to follow as well if there is no ref in 2020.

    100. Mark Robertson says:

      I think you are wring also Stu ! You self proclaimed Rev ! Your are just a false arsehole and you are proving it beyond doubt, .pulling someone up for a spelling mistake instead of doing your job that the poeople of Scotland donated to you ! Will you KIll him with Hammers or will you be killed with hammers first ?

    101. John Thomson says:

      Mark take a hike with the threats

    102. Clapper57 says:

      Unelected Tories

      Nicky Morgan did not stand…post GE 2019 parachuted into HOL

      Zac Goldsmith rejected by voters …post GE 2019 parachuted into HOL

      Ian Duncan rejected by voters..post GE 2017 parachuted into HOL.

      Tory Peers….still one of the team…not appointed by voters though….like previous Tory PM’s Boris J continues to fill the swamp while his counterpart in America pretends he is draining his….replacing it with a sewer al La Team Trump.

      Rumour re Lib Dem loser

      Jo Swinson rejected by voters…possible post GE 2019 parachuted into HOL

      Danny Alexander rejected by voters…post GE 2015…arise Sir Danny

      Obvs above list NOT exhaustive…and I am sure Boris J will have a few MORE suprises ….or rather…shocks on this in future ‘honour’ lists…..and let’s not forget Labour likes to plant their troughers into this elitist den too….

      Soooooooooooo….apparently we need to get away from EU unelected bureaucrats while appointing our OWN unelected bureaucrats who were rejected by our OWN electorate….maketh much sense in the house of double standards and WTF…

      Meanwhile the natives are still compliant and so totally onboard with this as they are still absorbed with collectively peering through their Brexit tinted glasses….searching for the horizon of a Brexit that the powers that be promised would be done.

      Meanwhile here in Scotland 2019 48 SNP MP’s is not a win however in 2017 13 Tory Mp’s elected in Scotland was….I know there is regression within certain areas of the UKOK population in respect to logic, reason and intelligence but are we regressing in numbers too…13 beats 48…who knew..well Unionists obvs….

      Frankly it must shock Unionists that certain peeps in Scotland are rejecting more of the above…aaannnd…all the rest that they offer us hmm…we must be mad to not see that the above is a win win for………fill in the blanks ( many options to choose from )…not where YOU are though…if you live in Ecosse….actually not a win if you live in Angleterre either LOL…. but at least they voted for it…we did NOT.

    103. terence callachan says:

      Hi Athanasius..

      You said this earlier today

      Athanasius says:
      20 December, 2019 at 9:20 am
      I’m Irish, and, as you know, we have some experience in separating from England. Taking this development in tandem with the SNP’s woke agenda into account, am I correct in my assumption that Scots — or at least the SNP — really aren’t all that serious about independence?

      The reason I asked if you are living in Scotland or Ireland is that most people you speak to here in Scotland don’t even know about the review of the gender ID
      Don’t think for a minute that WOS is a good and fair reflection of the views held by people in Scotland because there are an awful lot of people have not even heard of WOS let alone what is discussed therein.

    104. Helen Yates says:

      Well we can take it that the stress suffered over the past 3 yrs has all been for nothing, SNP have left it far too late to lower the lifeboats so now we all go down with the ship. might as well get back to our lives and accept what our masters have in store for us as the only option I see now left for Independence would be the people taking to the streets in large enough numbers demanding it, that would mean well over 500.000 and as good as we are at talking a good fight we’re not so good when it comes to taking real action. I know many think the SNP will still be in power in 2021, I am not one of them. I will however live in hope that I am proved wrong.

    105. terence callachan says:

      Iain More…I thought you had gone , emigrated , glad you stayed

    106. Josef Ó Luain says:

      One ridiculously well documented “ism” rarely cited for its horrors and failures by extreme-right opinion on here is British Imperialism. Quite an omission, given that Scotland remains chained to that particular “ism”.

    107. terence callachan says:

      James F Macintosh ….what does the “ F” stand for ?
      Oh it’s okay, I know ,

    108. Juteman says:

      You went anti-SNP just after your last fundraiser (which I contributed to) finished.
      Why didn’t you go anti SNP before that fundraiser?
      I’m just sad that you have went down the rabbit hole.

    109. terence callachan says:

      So a few folk are saying the British state will now go to town on Scotland to punish it for thinking of independence.

      HAHaHa ….

      Look….Scotland will become independent , one way or another , that cat is out the bag , too many people have cottoned on to the britnat trick ,we now know for sure the whole “VOW” thing was absolute nonsense.
      We now know that England thinks it owns Scotland but we also know that when we challenge them all they can say is Scotland is rubbish…..at everything , hahaha

      Westminster has power but to a joke , it’s weak at the core because it relies on ("Tractor" - Ed)s people like gove and Davidson and jack who really have given up being Scottish they want to be English and will probably change their nationality to English once Scotland is independent .

      The thing is , we don’t mind ,they are useless people anyway.

      English people treat Scotland like a colony , the thing is that is a weakness they have because they will give up and move on long before we ever will.

      This is a battle we cannot lose , too many people have seen the disgusting reality that is Westminster and the BBC

    110. Mist001 says:

      As an aside, I’m reading a lot on FB today that a section 30 request has been sent but I can find nothing online about this. Does anybody have any links, or is it just a made up story? I can find no proof.

    111. Andy Anderson says:

      My opinion is that we do not yet have enough support for independence. All opinion polls show this with results between 47% & 53%. Yes trends are upwards.
      So a referendum in 2020 is risky for us because if we fail that is it dead for a long time. Best to wait to 2021 to let Brexit and WM help our campaign. So if Stu’s analysis is correct so what.

    112. Clapper57 says:

      @ Mark Robertson

      Mark..do you own an Ironmongers…as on the very last post of a previous thread ‘The Silence’ you mentioned Hammers there too…

    113. Abulhaq says:

      @Bob Mack
      Brexit was a symptom, among many, of Scotland’s interests being subordinated to those of its neighbour.
      Over emphasis on the symptom, pushed independence, the cure, from view.
      It was a bad strategy, given that the SNP and its chosen unionist allies could effectively do little about it.
      Sturgeon’s impolitic admission that a vote for her party wasn’t necessarily a vote for independence implies that time has been wasted chasing a mirage. Time that must now be made up by assertively putting the case for independence, and that right quickly.

    114. Tatu3 says:

      Nicola Sturgeon stood up and stated yesterday that in their manifesto she said:
      “An SNP election victory will be a clear instruction by the people of Scotland that a new referendum on independence should be held next year, on a precise date to be determined by the Scottish Parliament.”
      The SNP won the election convincingly.
      I believe Nicola Sturgeon and her team know far better than Stu what is what and where they stand under the law and the timing of it all. She may have been away from the law a while now, but she has Joana Cherry in her team and she is a bloody good lawyer!

    115. Onwards says:

      @North Chiel

      Greens were wishy-washy about indy at the last Holyrood vote. Some vague future intention deep in the manifesto.

      Possible danger is a YES party splitting the vote with a fresh Green campaign pushing a direct PRO-INDY-REF message.

      Not sure how much of a difference that would make in gaining second votes – compared to a YES party with an even clearer message, less baggage and less likely to hold the SNP hostage at every opportunity. That may be less of a concern if a quick referendum was expected.

      Corbyn just showed proof of the need for a clear message though. That Brexit stance was a loser from the start.

      So a pure YES party could still do better I think, if the message was as simple as possible, with as little divisive baggage as possible. That’s where the YES brand trumps Wings, especially now Stu is tarred with hatespeech crimes on twitter 🙂
      But you can’t get a better strategist when you consider the WBB impact, you can’t get a more persuasive journalist/copywriter and the boost of Wings traffic during a campaign. But ‘YES’ has got to be in there somewhere if this goes forward. It’s pure and simple and familiar to all voters. ‘Yes for Scotland’ maybe.

      Hanvey retaining support to win Kirkaldy is a recent example of Indy voters putting that first, despite everything. If the message and trust is clear, the votes are there.
      SNP or not, divisive or not, Sturgeon support or not, he still won. Greens were sidelined to a suspended candidate who was trusted with a genuine pro-Scottish, pro-Indy attitude.

    116. Clapper57 says:

      Not only does Jeremy Corbyn know NOTHING about Scotland or it’s politics he chooses to insult us further by appointing as Shadow Scottish Secretary of State aka WM’s ‘second division’ MAN in Scotland … Rochdale MP Tony Lloyd

      Tony, in the past called for the Barnett Formula to be scrapped Lol……Al’reet Tony your the man for the job…cut from the same cloth as your partner in slime Alister Jack so it seems…al’reet Tony gaun yirsel ….seems Scots prefer to scrap the Labour party now that’s a winning formula … for Scots…Lol

    117. Well Stu., it just goes to show the old saying is true if you tell the truth your are a threat to the liars as none are so blind as those who refuse to see you have done more to get us independence than most of us have I for one say God bless you I thank you and salute you

    118. Colin Alexander says:

      http://www.craigmurray.org.uk

      Craig Murray’s response to the s30 request.

    119. Capella says:

      @ Marie M – Women Make Glasgow have published their guide to the GRA consultation.

      https://womenmakeglasgow.home.blog/scottish-governments-unwanted-unwarranted-gender-recognition-consultation/

    120. Effijy says:

      Looks like several of the Labour MPs have yet again voted with their Blue Tory Colleagues. 48 votes against Bojo were SNP.

      Looks to me as though dozens of Red Tories went against Corbyn-again.

      MPs have backed Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s plan for the UK to leave the EU on 31 January.

      They voted 358 to 234 – a majority of 124 – in favour of the EU (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill, which now goes on to further scrutiny in Parliament.

      The bill would also ban an extension of the transition period – during which the UK is out of the EU but follows many of its rules – past 2020.

    121. crisiscult says:

      We need a proper campaign that will hold SNP to the sword in 2021 if the ref doesn’t happen before Holyrood elections. Some would go down a Catalan route, though probably prefer not to have their bones broken by riot police while on that route.

    122. Gary45% says:

      Fireproofjim@2.35
      Hope the wife is OK, please pass on my best wishes.

      Stu, You are one of the “captains” in charge of the compass steering us towards Independence, please don’t take your eye off the course we are all following with you, there are many things each of us are rightly pissed off with the SNP Government, but there is only one chart to follow, and that’s the SNP one, we split the Indy movement, we might as well give up now.
      I choose you continuing your amazing Indy contribution and the SNP giving us the chance. There is no alternative until Scotland is Independent.
      A wee heads up, LBC O’Brien was not bad today, although I think I heard him mention Ruth the Mooth is on LBC over the holidays covering for a presenter, not sure who? Obviously needs “quality”!!! time away from the weans “first” Christmas. ( If wrong, apologies)
      Mother of the year and all that gullible shite for the fearties.

      Fearties a new name for Yoons, what do you all think?

    123. Colin Alexander says:

      Craig Murray: “The actual meat of the paper, that Indyref2 “must have” Westminster agreement or it is not legitimate, sits there like a great steaming turd…”

      “This paper by the Scottish Government is nothing more and nothing less than proof that the gradualists who sadly head the SNP are perfectly happy operating within the devolution system and have no intention of ever paying any more than lip service to Independence”

      My turn to say: telt yeez dint I?

      I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again:

      The SNP are the finest British Empire colonial administrators since Clive of India.

      And are happy to stay that way for a looooooong time.

    124. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Smeddum @ 23:39 (19.Dec),

      If I read that hoary old line from anyone once again, I’ll scream. When are you people going to realise that sitting back passively in the fond hope that events will somehow conspire to work in our favour is nothing but a losers’ charter? Have you never heard of the notion of “taking things at the flood”? And post this tipping-point election, now is that flood, not sometime later down the road after general acceptance of what’s about to be perpetrated upon us has settled in?

      When, oh when, are you dullards going to realise that its only once a campaign starts in earnest that we can possibly hope to up our numbers to the necessary level to cross that precious line? In the words of the old business adage “you have to speculate to accumulate”. We’re on the very cusp of winning, we only have to summon the courage to trust to our convictions and make that necessary last push.

    125. Andrew Orr says:

      Fairly obvious that Nicola is playing to the polls. 60% before she wants a vote. She is right, a second referendum loss would be fatal.

    126. R says:

      Dubs,Russian totalatarnism German
      Nazism was not communism,socialism which has never occurred on any international/global scale

    127. Muscleguy says:

      Sturgeon could call an indyref2 referendum saying she had firm legal advice that the S30 order from 2012 was still in force and leave it up to No10 to challenge it in the courts and see how many more Scots would support Yes because of it.

    128. Republicofscotland says:

      From the National newspaper, a commentor, in which they say.

      Boris Johnson has appointed James Heappey to Defence minister.

      Heappey once told a school girl to fuck off because she said she’d vote for Scottish independence in a second referendum.

      _______________________________

      This is the kind of anti-Scottish attitudes in the Tory government that well need to deal with, and overcome (barring a referendum without Westminster) to obtain independence.

      So we’ve got to the end of 2020 before the transition period runs out to exit this shit union. After that I’d imagine Westminster will think of a whole host of ways to roll back devolution.

      I sure hope we’ll reach the 60% pro-indy mark before then, and hopefully Sturgeon emboldened by it, will use some sort of plan B. With the majority of the electorate behind her in those circumstances telling Westminster to politely fuck off, we’re desolving this political union might just work.

      Westminster only believes in democracy when it suits them to do so.

    129. Mist001 says:

      @ Colin Alexander

      I know about that but that’s not the same thing as saying a section 30 request has actually been sent. They’ve passed a meaningless bill in Holyrood, that’s all.

    130. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Andrew Orr @ 16:58,

      =scream=

      I don’t think that is “obvious” at all, except to scaredy wishful thinkers maybe. She has said repeatedly she wants IR2 next year, no ifs or buts. What’s so hard to understand about that?

      As to the enormity of the conseqences, why don’t you just curl up into a ball and hibernate until it’s all over? Save yourself a whole lot of worry while the rest of us get this thing done. Of course it’s momentous, that’s the whole feckin’ point. If we were English we wouldn’t be wasting all this time agonising over the possibility of losing, we would instead be seizing the opportunity by the throat and making it happen, come hell or high water.

    131. twathater says:

      I don’t know about anyone else but I am absolutely confuddled by all the ( promises ?????? ) “Blackford , Scotland will NOT be dragged out of the EU against it’s will ” Mike Russell ” we will not accede to the electoral commissions requests , the proposals put forward by them are an attempt to gerrymander and prolong the process ” Nicola Sturgeon ” we will be having a referendum to determine the people of Scotlands future and we will have it by the end of 2020 ” Nicola Sturgeon ” vote for the SNP at this election to ensure that Scotland’s people will determine their future ”

      So is it just my stupidity or has the SNP SG been reading the liebour party in Scotland playbook ( lies and promises aplenty )

      My thoughts :: I think when england and Wales leave the EU formally on 31st January , Ian Blackford should stand up in the house of liars and STATE CATEGORICALLY Scotland IS NOT leaving the EU and en masse walk out , Nicola should hold a press conference immediately and announce to the world that due to the intransigence and refusal of the Westminster government to agree to a referendum she has no option but to dissolve the Scottish government and hold a Holyrood election , where her mandate will be if elected that the sovereign people of Scotland have instructed her to withdraw from the treaty of union

      That would put the cat amongst the pigeons and create total confusion , it would also save Scotland from the death of a thousand cuts which have no doubt these bastards are planning to do , it will take balls but honestly it would show the world that we are serious

      What think yeese would it work

    132. Republicofscotland says:

      So the transition period won’t extend beyond the 31st of December 2020. Yet Johnson says he’ll have a deal struck with the EU by then, which is very unlikely.

      A No Deal Brexit is more likely, of which I’m sure Johnson already has in mind. Along with that comes economic disaster, especially for Scotland.

      Its now more obvious than ever that we need to hold another indy ref before the end of the transition period.

    133. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If my own Twitter is anything to go by, Craig Murray’s latest is spreading fast.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

    134. Colin Alexander says:

      Alternatives to a s30 indyref include, in no particular order:

      1. Scot Parl Indyref without an s30

      2. Scottish MPs resigning their seats and seeking re-election on a mandate to declare the Union
      dissolved.

      3. Craig Murray’s favoured method: meeting of all MPs, MSPs and MEPs declare independence followed
      by confirmatory referendum by the Scottish state.

      4. Scot Parl elections used as a plebiscite election on indy, Scot Parl election date could be
      brought forward.

      5. SNP’s favoured method: insist one day, sometime in the future, the British Empire will cave in to Scottish democracy or act by moral decency to grant an s30, whilst they administer the Union for the British Empire, collecting handsome salaries and pensions in the meantime.

    135. TheBuchanLoony says:

      After the 31st January we are into a whole different ball game. All 27 EU countries need to agree(Even regions in Belgium (Wallonia etc) need to agree before Belgium can agree). What if one country says ‘no discussions’ until our EU friends in Scotland get their democratic and legal right to determine their own future? After the 31st I think Scotland will have many countries wishing to keep us in the EU.

    136. crazycat says:

      @ Capella at 4.20 (and Marie M)

      I think there will be at least one other document closer to the end of the consultation period (March next year), with advice about how to answer the questions. The one in your link describes the proposals and critiques them, but doesn’t include much about the best way to respond.

      I was quite nervous a couple of days ago when the consultation came out; I didn’t want to make a mess of my response. So I’m relieved I didn’t rush to fill it in, and have decided to wait to see what transpires in the meantime.

    137. Stoker says:

      Rev wrote in today’s article:

      “(And all of this is of course making the HUGE and unwarranted assumption that the UK government was willing to play ball.)

      And their response today was for the ‘Scottish Secretary’ to announce a statement saying the PM will give the indyref request some “serious consideration” and will “respond in the New Year.” AKA: We’re working on further ways to frustrate & block yous.

      So as is their want & practice the UKGov continues with its well-established practices of stalling & delaying. Of course, the BBC in Scotland didn’t bother to even cover it on their 6pm headlines. I got the info from their Teletext Service of 4 very small paragraphs.

      They also quoted Alister Jack saying 55% of Scotland’s voters voted for anti-indy parties last week. They mentioned absolutely nothing about the UKGov having even less of a mandate.

      The games have indeed stepped up a gear. And, btw, so has the fearmongering. Noticed yesterday one of the old BritNat favourites making a comeback on the BBC Text Service.

      THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING……………..again!

      ‘RAF crews on standby for quick alert incidents’
      “RAF jets were scrambled against Russian military aircraft detected approaching the UK on eight days so far this year. Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) crews at Lossiemouth in Moray and Coningsby in Lincolnshire were involved.In some incidents, the RAF Typhoon jets shadowed the Russian aircraft as they passed closed to UK airspace. Crews at Lossiemouth, the UK’s most northerly RAF station, will remain on standby over the Christmas and New Year periods.”

      I don’t even know where to begin with all that?

    138. Colin Alexander says:

      Mist001

      Ian Blackford MP, speech, House of Commons 19/12/2019:

      “This morning, Scotland’s First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, wrote to the Prime Minister demanding the transfer to the Scottish Government of legal powers to hold a second independence referendum under section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998. As the First Minister outlined, there has been a material change in the circumstances since the independence referendum of 2014, based on the prospect of Scotland‘s leaving the European Union against its will”.?

      Source: Hansard

      http://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-12-19/debates/66EEE94D-F200-4889-90AC-5EE34753AC3E/DebateOnTheAddress#contribution-30BD9175-4C87-481B-8A5C-0FFC1793FAC8

    139. crazycat says:

      @ TheBuchanLoony

      What if one country says ‘no discussions’ until our EU friends in Scotland get their democratic and legal right to determine their own future?

      “No Deal” is presumably what happens, much to the delight of all the hedge fund managers, etc. I did see a suggestion somewhere that the EU might extend the transition period, but I’m not convinced they have the power to do that, especially after the Q’s speech. They certainly didn’t have the power to unilaterally extend the Article 50 notification period; the UK government had to request that.

    140. Mist001 says:

      @ Colin Alexander

      Thank you.

    141. Watching some of today`s parliament on tv,

      best bit was when British Nationalist and brexit zealot Tory Suella Braverman MP told us,

      “around the world the UK is seen as a beacon of justice a symbol of fair play and the home of democracy”

      in the background all you can hear is a loud disdainful mocking laughter (probably not Joanna C although it did start when the Tory Suella mentioned `beacon of justice`)

      you could see the Tory was taken aback,

      made me think that laughing in parliament at the Torys waffling their lies and Brutish propoganda would make more of an impact than just sitting and shaking their heads,

      Boris has become PM on the platform of being a buffoon who can say and do anything without rebuke because he is seen as a buffoon,

      buffoons should be laughed at not treated with dignity and respect,

      https://tinyurl.com/tqj5hmw

      at 10.59.55

    142. mogabee says:

      Capella

      That’s just what I’ve been waiting for, thanks! 😀

    143. cynicalHighlander says:

      Thanks Capella it’s a start.

    144. Dan says:

      “Scotland’s Future in Scotland’s Hands” they say.

      Hmm OK, that sounds groovy, so let’s get Indy first.

      Once we regain our ability to govern ourselves and are free from this quagmire of a UK Union, Scotland’s future will indeed be in Scotland’s Hands, so we will then be able to decide on the numerous different policies we as country want.
      What’s up with that politicians, do you not trust us, the electorate, or are you scared we won’t support your own personal objectives to the detriment of our wider society?

    145. TheBuchanLoony says:

      @ crazycat…I heard today that the EU are in fact preparing for a no deal hard brexit. After the 31st things are going to ramp up considerably.

    146. george wood says:

      Andrew Orr says:
      20 December, 2019 at 4:58 pm

      “Fairly obvious that Nicola is playing to the polls. 60% before she wants a vote. She is right, a second referendum loss would be fatal.”

      How on earth are we going to achieve 60% in the polls when the party that is supposed to deliver us Independence won’t campaign for it.

      I received two GE communications from my SNP candidate and neither of them mentioned Independence.

      The only people talking about Independence in the last 5 years have been the Unionists and to a lesser extent the Greens.

    147. george wood says:

      Edit to my post at 8.45pm

      I should have said parties not people

    148. Capella says:

      @ crazycat @ mogabee @ cynicalHighlander – I posted the link on here because Maria M doesn’t have a twitter account so doesn’t get the info as it circulates. Will continue to post when groups tweet their findings.
      The consultation lasts until March so no immediate hurry to respond. But I don’t want to leave it too late either. Probably will respond in January.

    149. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      I know; getting the timing right is tricky. I’ve submitted responses (about various issues) and then wished I’d waited (they weren’t as important as this, though), and also waited and then been in a rush and worried I hadn’t covered everything.

    150. cynicalHighlander says:

      More info will be forthcoming as time goes on so the more ammo the better.

    151. velofello says:

      Comply with UK contrived procedures, and lose. It really is that simple really.

      Kick the bloody barrel of nonsensical/contrived UK obstruction procedures into touch, and win.

      The Electoral Commission – I see no ships – is that the body that facilitates the breaking of Purdah? Of excessive LibDem leaflet expenditure, ok’d since the posty didn’t deliver them? And, and.

      SNP MPs, up sticks and sit at Holyrood.

    152. velofello says:

      The SNP gained 48 seats at the UK general election, and came second on the remaining 11 seats.What more of an instruction is needed from the electorate for the SNP to ACT, to assert themselves?

      Johnson reading his phone whilst Ian Blackford was speaking should have caused the SNP to leave the chamber.The world is watching.

      Why comply with the crass stupidity of Black Rod etc procedures?

      Why swear an allegiance to a Crathy church,murmering, anti-independence Queen?

      Why attend Westminster?

      And please, don’t quote “the law” in response. The law, intended to civilise humanity’s behaviour – I give you Westminster.

    153. robertknight says:

      Colin Alexander@6:27

      1 and 5 = Waste of time… Yoons will boycott 1 and UK Parliament (Both Houses) will never approve 5.

      Combination of 2, 3 and 4 may have traction, however if an MP resigns their seat, the House of Commons must vote to ‘Move the Writ’; whereby MPs instruct the Speaker to write to the Returning Officer for the relevant constituency, who must then call a by-election within 3-4 weeks of receiving the Writ.

      I wouldn’t put it past a Tory majority in the HoC playing silly buggers and, in the face of 47/48 simultaneous resignations, deciding to ride it out for several months before instructing the Speaker to act. (He’s no friend of the SNP either).

      Best just stick to MSPs being the catalyst – If the SNP get over 50% of the votes cast (managed 45% at last GE) and over 50% of the seats at Holyrood on a single issue ticket of Indy then the MPs can just stick two fingers up to the HoC and come home.

    154. boris says:

      Can political agents be identified? Yes! but only in the early years. Senior agents are well capable of disappearing within the system. Look for young politically inexperienced persons, educated to university degree level, surfacing from nowhere as candidates for political office, supported by larger than usual canvassing teams. Those that are successful are given early promotion requiring them to be in Westminster longer than would be expected early on. Their sphere of interest will become apparent over time.

      Look out for activities in support of Atlanticist groups, visits abroad funded by ultra-right-wing organizations and membership of Common Purpose, Bilderberg, The British American Project, and similar organizations. Happy spy hunting!!!!! Bowie fits the profile.

      https://caltonjock.com/2019/12/20/andrew-bowie-tory-mp-another-political-toady-sponging-off-the-scottish-taxpayers-the-agricultural-metaphor-they-will-reap-what-they-have-sewn-is-apt-for-the-voters-of-aberdeenshire-west-part1/

    155. Waldo says:

      I think Mr Campbell may have the kind of social and communication style that makes facts, being right and pointing out logical errors more important than social relationships and social standing.

      This is an admirable quality in many circumstances and is certainly in short supply in today’s media.

      It can also lead to saying things that while technically, logically correct are socially taboo for reasons that may well be hidden or unimportant to Mr Campbell.

    156. kapelmeister says:

      Labour’s new Shadow Scottish Secretary Tony Lloyd hasn’t even tweeted acknowledgement of his new role since being appointed. That’s how much Scotland means to him.

      Just when we thought Labour couldn’t do any worse than Lesley Laird, along comes Rochdale Tony.

    157. crazycat says:

      @ velofello

      Somewhat off-topic:
      Was it you who posted on Wee Ginger Dog a couple of weeks back about coming in to the Yes East Ayrshire hub for some of our indy stamps?

      If so, we do have the second printing available. It might be a bit late for Christmas, but they can be used at other times as well. We won’t be open again till the 30th, but if it is you (same username), do please come to see us.

    158. Meg merrilees says:

      Scot Finlayson

      thanks for the link to the parliament debate today re the brexit bill.
      Laughter from the SNP was a great idea – really spooked the other benches.
      However, I listened to Claire Hanna SDLP, make her maiden speech immediately after the conservative wifie 11.00am – absolutely brilliant speech. Such a pity that the majority of N Irish views that we have heard have been DUP.

      Claire Hanna nailed it in her first speech – not shy to tell it as it is. well worth a listen

      https://tinyurl.com/tqj5hmw

      10.59.55 onwards

    159. Velofello says:

      @Waldo: In my career duration I was described as “task oriented”. I reckon this may apply to Rev Stu.

      Task oriented could be described as being politically unconcerned, naive, lacking in networking skills. Task oriented has an honesty, integrity, about it though, and why I’ve followed Rev Stu from the beginning. I trust him.

    160. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – I see you have quoted Craig Murray’s latest article:

      You cannot both believe that the Scots are a people with the right of self-determination, and believe that Westminster has a right to veto that self-determination.

      What Craig misses out is the Treaty of Union. We have the right of self determination but are bound to Treaty obligations where Westminster has the power to determine constitutional issues.

      We can, of course, repeal the Treaty. I think we should. But there is a process to be gone through, just as in a divorce. Both parties have the power of self determination but the marriage contract imposes certain obligations. I don’t understand how people like Craig, otherwise very perceptive, doesn’t get that.

      I have noticed that, every time the SNP gets some momentum towards independence, Craig publishes an article pouring cold water over the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon and her leadership team.

      Stu says that Nicola is not a constitutional lawyer. But maybe she understands contract law?

      I understand that people are frustrated by the “gradualist” approach. I would reframe that. I regard the SNP leadership as more chess players rather than poker players. A slow careful deployment of pieces will lead to checkmate in the end.

      Of course, a player who upsets the board is deemed to have lost the game.

    161. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Capella I’d prefer if we reserver & assert all rights & concede Westminster power over nothing. Agreement perhaps, it would be nice, but ultimately real power cannot be given, it must be taken. That is a narrative which needs to be lead & promoted. What we have now is the drip-feeding of ‘canny, reserved, no allowed’. That is a mental prison which needs to be demolished brick by brick. We are too timid.

    162. @Meg merrilees,

      yes she is a good speaker,
      compare her speech with any of the Tory lies, bluff and bluster,

      she said,

      “the political bluster of slogans is going to have to meet reality”

      yes, she is not at parliament to sit back and live the good life.

    163. Papko says:

      1. Scot Parl Indyref without an s30

      You do realise this is the same folk who took 10 years to bring in minimum alcohol pricing? and have binned every other “difficult” bit of legislation like Named person?

      2. Scottish MPs resigning their seats and seeking re-election on a mandate to declare the Union
      dissolved.

      This will have to be a single issue manifesto and the Yoons will do what Yoons do best; Unite, and stand as one party.
      Then it goes to 55-45.

      3. Craig Murray’s favoured method: meeting of all MPs, MSPs and MEPs declare independence followed
      by confirmatory referendum by the Scottish state.

      Number 2 is vastly superior to this, any attempt to shunt The Yoons into the side-lines, will be met with British army on the streets and Brigade of Ghurkhas going to work on the homes.

      4. Scot Parl elections used as a plebiscite election on indy, Scot Parl election date could be
      brought forward.

      As above, Yoons will unite.

      5. SNP’s favoured method: insist one day, sometime in the future, the British Empire will cave in to Scottish democracy or act by moral decency to grant an s30, whilst they administer the Union for the British Empire, collecting handsome salaries and pensions in the meantime.

      Number 5 sounds sensible and everybody will be happy of sorts.
      FM can bang the table and rail against injustice, keeps the AUOB on track.
      Meanwhile the Yoons enjoy the benefits of SNP Govt “efficiencies” and gradually by 2066 …………..

    164. Capella says:

      @ Jock McDonnell- you seem to overlook the Treaty as well. Of course we would prefer to do whatever we like. But we must first dissolve the Treaty. How do you propose we do that?

    165. Joe says:

      Some advice, guys n gals-

      To win a country one has to unite its people to a great extent first.

      I hate to rain on the parade but the largely progressive left Yes movement and authoritarian/inept SNP are 1000,000 miles from doing that.

    166. Joe says:

      Lets consider some things –

      – Alienation of many voters by tinkering with the basic workings of peoples rights and established civilized norms.

      – Playing the yoon card on Brexit – all fear and no positive vision

    167. Capella says:

      The Treaty of Union is like an arranged marriage contracted by ancient relatives, long dead. We find ourselves bound to this callous, abusive oaf, aptly personified by Boris Johnston. We know we have to leave. But we want to leave lawfully. We want international recognition and membership of the EU. We want what’s rightfully ours. So we take steps to facilitate our exit.

      Of course the boorish oaf will resist. But as long as we follow a recognised procedure and the Scottish people consent, international and EU support will support us.

      At least, that’s my understanding of what’s happening.

    168. Joe says:

      – disrespecting democratic outcomes in other UK nations.

      – Woke to the point of ordinary people (not in the naive leftist bubble) being somewhat nauseous of the virtue signaling and moralising and general hypocrisy

    169. Joe says:

      – The ‘nationalism’ on offer isnt actually nationalism to anyone who can think critically. Its a signing up to international groups with their own rulebook.

      I know – im stupid and bigoted for having these concerns. Im a troll also…and thats the other reason people arent being convinced. Sorry for this, but its true.

    170. yesbot says:

      boris says:
      20 December, 2019 at 10:50 pm
      Can political agents be identified? Yes! but only in the early years. Senior agents are well capable of disappearing within the system. Look for young politically inexperienced persons, educated to university degree level, surfacing from nowhere as candidates for political office, supported by larger than usual canvassing teams. Those that are successful are given early promotion requiring them to be in Westminster longer than would be expected early on. Their sphere of interest will become apparent over time.
      ————-
      Interesting post, could be describing our very own Stirling University progressive Trans cult, tutored by “Daddy” supported by the executive ..helping to destroy the Independence/Yes Movement from within the SNP.
      An entire nation’s well being and survival is being compromised.
      The Yes movement really needs an alternative party/voice.

    171. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 12.10
      Overlooked, not only that there IS a Treaty,but also that it was Ratified by the people of Scotland as acceptable to them in 2014!
      That’s why the British Nationalists keep rattling on about the 2014 vote.
      IMO
      It’s not because they are out of arguments,it’s a warning to Nicola not to try and just set it aside and why ( again IMO )
      the “Material Change” that Nicola very quickly put before the people really matters too.
      She would know that the Scottish electorate would not really see Indy Ref 1 in those terms,but,she would also know that it was highly likely that sooner or later Westminster would step outside the Treaty arrangements.
      In, say about 50 year’s we wouldn’t need a “Material Change” to justify a vote. We’d only need to feel fed up being in the Union .
      To get out quicker the Scottish People had to vote for a reason to do so….
      Which we have 🙂

    172. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – yes I agree. It shows remarkable foresight to put that very example in the manifesto. They also foresaw Boris Johnston becoming prime minister. That’s what I meant by the chess analogy.

      What they probably didn’t forsee was the complete dogs dinner that Westminster has made of BREXIT. The Tories have made spectacularly stupid moves and taken a very very long time about it.

      But nearly there. One more move and Boris will have the UK out of the EU by 31st January – technically.

    173. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Capella –

      Sorry for slowness of response.

      I don’t believe that Johnson, Cummings et al have the slightest interest in, or respect for, the Treaty of Union, or any other ‘piece of paper’ that doesn’t conform with their agenda.

    174. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 1.26
      I agree Ian,they don’t respect it.
      One of the British State’s greatest achievements was and is the population’s ignorance of the real source of Westminster,s power over Scotland.
      But respect it or no they have to work around it and dare not end it.
      And they have no real way of stopping Scotland if we dare to end it.
      The only thing in the way is the Scottish voter’s who aren’t YES yet!

    175. Lynne says:

      @ terence callachan 3.03 pm
      English people treat Scotland like a colony

      Please don’t tar us all with the same brush.

      @ george wood 8.45 pm
      How on earth are we going to achieve 60% in the polls

      The GE already saw 45% vote for pro-independence parties. Add the 16-18 year-olds, EU citizens, those who support independence but vote Labour/Tory/LibDem at a GE for reasons known only to themselves… That’s a lot of extra votes.

    176. carjamtic says:

      An idiots guide to Indy.

      This device will automatically update software at midnight/whenever…….or while your sleeping ok.

      This will protect you from malware, viruses etc.

      WoS providing you with 24 hour cover and receiving pelters.

      Give yourselves a shake.

    177. Lukas Scholts says:

      It is more important than ever that the Wings Party is created and prepared for the next Hollywood elections. The SNP needs to be pressed towards taking a more authentic and radical approach.

      Instead of sitting in the commons moaning and achieving fuck all, SNP MPs should be canvassing for support in Europe. Sturgeon should be over there too.

      When the withdrawal agreement is ratified, the EU and its individual member states have no reason or requirement to side with the UK government on anything. An official comment from the EU making clear that Scottish membership would be straightforward after independence would be a good place to start.

    178. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Hi Frogesque,

      Sorry to hear your other half is suffering from macular degeneration. One of our lot knows a gentleman called professor Pete Coffey and was speaking with him the other day.

      It might help your partner if you studied some of the pioneering research the prof., and his team have been licenced to trial now on human eyesight loss in the macular…

      https://www.ucl.ac.uk/ioo/news/2019/may/prof-pete-coffey-named-uk-lifesaver

      In amongst all this dire and depressing time, sometimes a thing happens in humanity that transcends the grubby politicians and bottom feeding craphounds.

      All my best to your partner Frogesque.

    179. Robert Louis says:

      Capella at 1148am,

      Sorry, but I disagree with your thoughts on the treaty of union. There is nothing to stop the very next Scottish Government ending the treaty of union unilaterally, provided they state that as part of their manifesto. Their is NOTHING stopping the current Scottish Government calling and holding indyref.

      The treaty of union is not magic. It is like any other treaty and can be ended at ANY time by either party. And just bear in mind, if it was England who wanted to end the union treaty, they would, without a second’s thought of ‘how to go about it’, or ‘do we need a section 30′, or do we need to ask Scotland’. No, they would just do it. So folk in the SNP need to stop making up nonsense about the treaty of union. It isn’t magic.

      You talk of how the treaty has obligations, and yes that is correct, but those obligations do NOT include asking London’s permission to end the treaty, otherwise, Scotland could never leave, no matter what.

      As for a gradualist approach, let’s just consider what it has achieved towards independence so far since 2014, nothing. The gradualist approach has achieved nothing. Oh, yes we are closer to independence, but that is down to Alex Salmond and the YES movement, not what anything the current SNP leadership themselves have done. Seriously, what have they actually done to progress independence????? sent a couple of nice letters to bojo and Theresa. So what.

      And here’s the real problem I have with this glacial approach to independence. In normal times, with a normal Westminster government, that could be a strategy to use, but these are not normal times. We have a prime minister who is a serial and compulsive liar, who has the moral integrity of a snake, surrounded by a coterie of English racist extreme right wing Tory MP’s. So a slow approach is useless.

      Do you seriously think Johnson the racist lying English prime minister really gives a flying f about Nicola Sturgeon’s letter? Do you seriously think he’ll suddenly have a change of heart, turn around and say, hey, you know what Nicola, you made a good argument, here’s a section 30, have your indyref??

      No. The lying racist prime minister will NEVER allow indyref, when he knows he will lose.

      So, in such circumstances a much harder approach is needed.

      Added to all of that, Scotland is about to be forcibly stripped of its EU membership, and the SNP have done NOTHING to stop it, NOTHING. They could have, they have had mandate after mandate, after mandate, but still they dither and dither and dither. All talk, no action.

      ‘please London, cane we have a section 30??’. F***ing pathetic.

      When I, along with other Scots am forcibly stripped of my EU citizenship, I’ll be furious at the lying bas****s in Westminster, but I’ll be even angrier at Nicola Sturgeon and the feeble 48 or whatever SNP MP’s in Westminster for lacking the backbone to actually stand up for Scotland when it mattered. Whining from the sidelines (as the SNP do) just doesn’t cut it. Great speeches to the deaf ears in Westminster might make some individuals feel clever, but will achieve nothing.

      The days for talk are over, they need to freaking well get on with it. They have multiple mandates, do something FFS. The clock is ticking, and people like myself are getting michty sick of the SNP’s intransigence and procrastination. Time for them to put up or shut up.

    180. Golfnut says:

      @ Robert Louis @ Capella.
      There was an online petition sent to Westminster regarding the repeal of the Acts of Union, the reply from the petitions committee was very interesting. In simple terms, the reply stated that this was not a matter for either the UK gov or the Westminster Parliament, but was for the People of Scotland to decide.
      Like you Robert, I don’t believe that Westminster has jurisdiction and I ignored the online Petition on that basis. It has however proved to be very important, because of that reply.
      I have long argued that petitioning the Scottish Parliament to act was the forward, Westminster would appear to agree.
      I will try to get the link and post here or on the next thread.

    181. Jock McDonnell says:

      Ignore the Treaty ? The thing that Peat Worrier describes as a mercantile treaty, the thing that Westminster, a creature of the treaty, seems to pay no heed to. The thing which even Thatcher & Enoch Powell said could not prohibit our Independence. The thing which is silent on so many matters. Aye, mibbe we should.
      Sovereignty is asserted. Laws are changed because politicians change them because people change politicians. No more ‘it canny be done’.

    182. Capella says:

      @ Robert Louis @ Ian Brotherhood – while it’s technically true that anyone can resile any treaty/contract any time they like, you must accept that there will be consequences.

      Westminster doesn’t respect the Treaty of Union as Ian Brotherhood points out above. But the international community does and the EU does. If, as Craig suggests, the only way to independence is through recognition by the international community, then proper procedures must be observed.

      Scotland is not a colony. We have a treaty contract with England (which includes Wales and Northern Ireland). We must, as in a divorce, obtain the agreement of the treaty partner to dissolve it. Or, as in a divorce, after due process, dissolve it unilaterally if the partner proves intransigent.

      Irretrievable breakdown of the relationship has to be evidenced. The Tories provide copious instances of that. Scotland hasn’t voted Tory since 1955.

    183. schrodingers cat says:

      so we need 36 weeks as of the bill being passed in holyrood……… last time i looked there was 52 weeks in a year. what am i missing???

      meh, unimportant, we need to know what the last 10 days has done to support for yes.

      i also agree with the snp that bojos continued refusal to grant a s30 will increase support for yes

      i also believe that bojo will strip powers right across the uk to the detriment of millions, including scottish voters

      i also believe we will crash out with no deal on dec 31st next year. the fall out of which will affect millions across the uk, including scottish voters

      also, if indyref2 doesnt happen next year, then a new indy political party (or 2) will contest the list seats in 2021, ensuring a pro indy majority. whether folk vote for a wos party is irrelevant, stu will continue to make the case for voting for other indy parties on the list.

      i saw peter bell on twitter calling for a campaign of civil disobedience. 100’s agreed with him but no one, not even peter would say exactly what that would entail, apart from continuing to march at AUOB rallies

      so i will suggest 2 actions

      1. blockade aberdeen airport with cars. no crew changes means production on all platforms will stop

      2. blockade grangemouth with cars. 30% of all UK petrol leaves grangemouth by tanker. the panic buying across the uk will ensure the whole of the UK shuts down

    184. Brian Lucey says:

      Talk of civil disobedience is fine and dandy until heads start to be cracked.

    185. Scozzie says:

      I don’t think Nicola Sturgeon is a master of strategy. For a long time it’s obvious the SNP is planning to coast along to 2021 and seek yet another mandate.
      We needed to vote SNP at this GE there was no doubt about that. But what NS has indicated so far towards independence is still boxing us into a corner. I’m no political analyst but I’ve long since stated that the SNP will string things out until 2021. Craig Murray sets out the flaws in NS statement in his latest blog.

      I think its now essential to have a YES movement independence party or wings party on the list for 2021

    186. Stoker says:

      velofello wrote on 20 December, 2019 at 10:24 pm:

      “The Electoral Commission – I see no ships – is that the body that facilitates the breaking of Purdah? Of excessive LibDem leaflet expenditure, ok’d since the posty didn’t deliver them? And, and.”

      And the £1800 fine for the ‘Tory Trust’ undeclared “Dark Money”, now how much was that again eh? https://theferret.scot/suat-electoral-commission-decision/

    187. Robert Louis says:

      Capella at 1021am,

      I get your point about due process, but seriously, what do you think has been going on for the last four years? As for evidence of a total breakdown of the relationship, let me cite the very best example from over three hundred years of the treaty being in place, BREXIT.

      Their is no clearer example. But their are many, many, many others. All it takes is a declaration from the Scottish Government, that given the circumstances, it can no longer continue with the union treaty, as it is now damaging Scotland, by forcibly stripping Scots of their EU citizenship, and therefore, the union is at an end. Mind, that would take courage, and I’m not sure the current leadership has an ounce of it.

      We do not need more time to ‘show the world how bad things are, it is abundantly clear to the EU and the entire world, already.

      The ONLY thing holding Scotland back right now, is the Scottish Government. The case of abuse and disrespect is very, very obvious, as in Scots about to be stripped of their EU citizenship wholly and completely against their clear democratically expressed wishes.

      Just how much more so-called’ evidence’ is NS waiting for?

      It is time for action. We need no more of this abuse (and it IS ABUSE) from England and its tawdry wee racist English Tory government. Enough. Get on with it, Nicola, FFS, or step aside and let somebody else do it.

    188. velofello says:

      @ crazycats: Yes I’d like some stamps, I’ll try to come along on the 30th. I’ve been to your shop a few times, and admire/respect your efforts.

    189. Haggishunter says:

      Ffs Montrose FC got beat by Falkirk today, now I read this and am even more depressed.
      Time for drams.

    190. K1 says:

      The question will remain always, when they come wi the haundcuffs will schrodinger’s cat be in the hoose and oot the hoose at that moment in time?

      😉

    191. Gary says:

      Unless this is rushed through immediately it won’t happen. However, we are ONE step closer in that THIS part of the process HAS been begun.

      We are (sadly) still part of the UK and it is run by a far right government headed by a far right populist leader who has no INTENTION of ever honouring the agreement and he is backed by a unionist press who consistently fail to mention the codicil in the Edinburgh Agreement which is the reason (well, one of them) for demanding Indy2.

      You can’t move to Plan B without TRYING Plan A. Going through the ‘Plans’ puts more pressure on the government to comply with the wishes of the people.

      We shouldn’t be TOO patient or we’ll never get independence BUT we can’t bypass it all and declare UDI next week when it would be ‘put down’ with troops etc and they would suspend Hoyrood and using the fact that no kind of process had been followed to make any such independence illegitimate. This is real world politics, it’s hard and unfair. It has to be made SO difficult for Westminster to refuse us that they feel they dare not.

      Or you can just keep sniping from the sidelines…

    192. crazycat says:

      @ velofello

      Thanks for the reply; in theory we open at 10, but I strongly suspect it will be a bit later than that on the 30th!

      See you then.

    193. cirsium says:

      @golfnut, 21 December

      There was an online petition sent to Westminster regarding the repeal of the Acts of Union, the reply from the petitions committee was very interesting. In simple terms, the reply stated that this was not a matter for either the UK gov or the Westminster Parliament, but was for the People of Scotland to decide.

      The reference number is 251950.

      The UK application for admission to the UN acknowledged that the UK is a state based on the union of several nations and named Scotland as one of these nations. The Smith Commission acknowledged that Scotland has a right to decide its own future as did the House of Commons in autumn 2019.

      I do not see the need for a s30 given the fact that the UK is a state based on the union of two sovereign countries through treaty. The majority of our elected representatives in both Holyrood and Westminster support independence. If a consultative referendum was held and the vote was for independence, our elected representatives could act on this and take steps to end the Treaty.

    194. MBC says:

      Capella, I’m not sure you are correct. I think any party to an international treaty can resile unilaterally from it, according to my friend who is an international lawyer. I am not. My question would be the status of Scotland in doing so, because we are not sovereign. A sovereign state might break with another.

      Now, whilst I challenge the view put forward by the UK government’s lawyers Crawford and Boyle in 2014 that Scotland was ‘extinguished’ by the treaty of union, as our other institutions and rights remained intact and there was no take over as such, yet our sovereignty may have been extinguished by the dissolution of our sovereign parliament and its incorporation into the parliament of the United Kingdom of GB. That said, if our sovereignty was extinguished, so was England’s as its parliament was also incorporated into the UK parliament.

    195. Douglas says:

      August/September is better than April/May for any election which requires groundwork. Voter registration drives by volunteers rely on longer summer evenings for canvassing. The less time between work and dusk in the four months before a poll mean the less time for direct contact with householders and residents.

      Of course if the SNP hadn’t been so complacent over the last 12 years we wouldn’t NEED voter registration campaigns. Shaping the battlefield by requiring all public bodies (schools, colleges, NHS, local government, housing associations etc) to do an electoral register check on every interaction would easily have kept the electoral register 15 to 20 points more accurate than it is under the current scheme. We KNOW that keeping young people on the register doesn’t happen by accident and that they OVERWHELMINGLY vote SNP and for Independence.

    196. Alasdair Angus Macdonald says:

      All the best for the New Year, Mr Campbell.

      Although I do not agree with all of your views – particularly as expressed in some of the more recent articles – I agree with most. Over the past years you have been one of the bastions of the independence movement and, when it comes, you will deserve our gratitude.



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