The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

The Woke Party

Posted on August 04, 2019 by

These are the Democratic Socialists of America, a fringe-left grouping in the USA with around 60,000 members (or roughly 10 times as many as the Scottish Greens, though per capita closer to the SSP or RISE), at their conference a couple of days ago.

It’s our most fervent wish that one day the left will grasp the fact that this isn’t how you win a war.

It’s also our most abiding fear that this – with its stern admonitions against clapping, or banner-waving, or speaking to anyone who might disagree with you, or taking “fun shortcuts” or wearing “aggressive scents”, in case any of those things cause trauma to the sensitive – might as well be the SNP conference of 2022.

Let’s not blow independence in this Parliament, eh folks?

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. 04 08 19 14:56

    The Woke Party | speymouth

177 to “The Woke Party”

  1. grahamlive says:

    Christ almighty, does he ever listen to himself? I’m a “leftist” but I wouldn’t last 5 minutes with these folk.

  2. Normski says:

    Wow, the Democratic Snowflakes of America – they must have fun parties.

  3. Mac says:

    It’s a tenuous comparison.

  4. manandboy says:

    Hear, hear!

  5. Confused says:

    there is a sexual fetish where grown men dress as babies – this seems to be the intellectual equivalent

    that platform was not gender-balanced, nor did I see people-of-colour … to the gulag!

  6. defo says:

    Don’t, don’t, don’t….

    Our future Chinese overlords might stop long enough to laugh, before crushing that lot.

  7. Sharny Dubs says:

    Normal, sane, community minded folk being hijacked by extreme behaviour that just defies reason.

  8. galamcennalath says:

    All politicians and parties have to make a strategic choice – either make progress towards your goals through pragmatism and compromise with allies OR retain your ideological purity but achieve nothing.

  9. Ken500 says:

    The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won, Not in the middle of turmoil.

    People have to vote for it. Another GE and then an IndyRef.

    Vote SNP/SNP, Vote for Independence.

  10. Arbroath1320 says:

    is it any wonder to anyone that America is in such a mess … seriously?

    don’t talk to cops?


    well that’s all future independence marches well and truly screwed then peeps! 😀

  11. Brian Powell says:

    Though none of these things are happening. Clapping, loud cheering, funny smells, loud discussion, tweeting stuff, loud laughing etc is there in the Conferences in much abundance.

    Quiet is never on anybody’s agenda.

  12. manandboy says:

    Describing the damaged dam in Derbyshire as ‘dodgy but stable’, the new PM gives us another insight into his deeply flawed character by offering a slightly casual analysis of what is potentially, a very dangerous situation for a lot of people living in the village below the dam.

  13. Ottomanboi says:

    DSofA..where you’ll find your home on the ‘autistic spectrum’.
    However, no mention of like the toilets, no mention of like terms of address, no mention of like those aggressive undeodorized body smells, the dangers of hot coffee, the accidental touching and personal space invasion, the looking, the loud talking, the scary people walking about with MacBookAirs and like hand waving freeks me….sorry high pitched, whiny American greeter you’re just not like sensitively woke enough. I do just feel I’d be like way too insecure.

    Like KREEPY!

  14. cynicalHighlander says:

    Couldn’t make it to 2 mins.

  15. Artyhetty says:

    Blimey, it’s like a school at assembly!

    Really he just needed to say ‘there’s the loos, there’s the fire exits and if here the alarms run for your lives, if you are in a wheelchair the ‘stewards’ will be there to make sure you can exit the building safely’.

    There are far too many ‘don’ts’ in his speech.
    If you tell someone ‘don’t’ they usually do, it’s a well known psychological fact.

    Did any of them manage to talk to each other anyway or did it all end up in mass lefty brawl, makes you wonder. Love the lefty jacket, and the badges. At least a couple of women were there on stage, making sure to keep house. Jeezo.

  16. Artyhetty says:


    I skipped through bits, the droning on was too much to take for the whole thing. ‘Don’t this don’t that’, would need a mini wine to cope if there for real.

  17. Artyhetty says:


    It sounds like Horice was talking about himself there, ‘dodgy but stable’. Well the dodgy part is correct we know that for sure. A disgraceful comment from potuk, about a serious situation, to say the least.

  18. blackhack says:

    I’m offended by this offence to reality, who do I complain to ??

  19. ahundredthidiot says:

    I think the SNP has said and done enough about Brexit….it’s a lost cause now and the smart thing to do is recognise that. I do not want to win independence and then be subject to a ‘re-run’. Any attempt to seriously support a ‘peoples vote’ on EU membership would be setting that precedent. Virtue signalling is one thing, but now that we are moving into grown up territory we need to remain shtoom.

    Time to weigh up the most pragmatic option to win Scotlands independence…..and if we need to get in bed with the tories to secure indyref2, then so be it.

    Maybe NS needs to refocus on what the Prize actually looks like.

    And lets not forget that the other side of an indyref2 win, we need partners and friends down south, not enemies.

  20. starlaw says:

    Do not laugh at the worm . . He may grow up to be a Dragon .

  21. Willie says:

    Dodgy but stable, everyone will get housed, and then BoJo was off.

    And what a symbol of a developing country the Whately Bridge crisis is.

    With hundreds of dams the length and breadth of England how can it be that a reservoir dam is on the brink of collapse whereby over a.billion litres of water might cascade down on a town that houses 6,500 people.

    Indeed with currently over 2,000 people displaced into their fourth night of emergency shelter why is the press not asking how on Earth this cabin be happening. Dams are supposed to be highly regulated structures. So how has this happened.

    Austerity, the hollowing out of safety protection, it’s all part of a developing third world country.

    Not that BoJo and his ilk give a fuck for the poor souls living like third world disaster refugees. Rule Britannia.

  22. Republicofscotland says:

    Overly woke indeed, politics is a dirty game, how do they expect to accomplish much without stepping on anyone’s toes in the process?

    Maybe the Democratic Socialists of America, is just one big club for the overly genial and sensitive in American society.

    If this comment has offended anyone I’m terribly sorry, there’s an audio version, scent fee of course, if you don’t like reading comments.

  23. Bob Mack says:

    Don’t be an individual. Comply. Simples .

  24. HandandShrimp says:

    Navel gazing is to become an Olympic sport…it’s what I’ve heard.

  25. t42 says:

    First rule of Fight Cult, is don’t talk to anyone outside of Fight Cult.

  26. Morgatron says:

    Oh man, I would have to go in there with a bull horn and cream fire and it wouldnt be my hands I would be waving. But that’s just me!

  27. Abulhaq says:

    Looks like yet another manifestion of the up their own fundament, middle class WankFest syndrome.
    The pampered middle classes have so much to answer for especially during episodes of self-righteous ‘hurt’.
    The American ‘Democratic Socialists’ have so many factions, fractions and subsets in their big tent it’s a miracle they can manage to convene at all.
    SNP 2022? By then we’ll be free and wont need it….I hope.

  28. Colin Alexander says:

    Correct Stu.

    The SNP have spent the last three years trying to UNDO the MANIFESTO MANDATE for Indyref2: Scotland being dragged out of the EU.

    The SNP even accepted leaving the EU in an EFTA type single market deal,for which they had no mandate from the people of Scotland, as Scotland voted REMAIN in the EU.

    Ah but it was a UK-wide vote sneer both the Unionists and the SNP apologists for the complete rejection of a decision by the sovereign population and that decision being overridden by a UK and Scottish political class.

    Just like UK Govt, the SNP Scot Govt would not put a Scotland only referendum question about Scotland remaining in the Eu AND then respect that the sovereign people of Scotland had decided for Scotland.

    No, the SNP went to join with the Tories and ex-Tories and LibDems in saving England from Brexit. We even had Nicola hugging Alastair Campbell.

    The SNPs focus remains on Brexit, not independence.

  29. robertknight says:

    Down with this sort of thing!

  30. Douglas says:

    If this was a conference about (for example) Autism then some of this might make sense.

    I guess that means some Autism sufferers can’t make it to things like this.

    It’s a question of how far do we go to include people without making things impractical.

    I would have hoped that most of this could be covered by consideration and common sense.

  31. shiregirl says:

    Tell me this is some sort of pardody…

    Are people seriously this sensitive?!

  32. Ian McCubbin says:

    Wow this snowflake with a sense of personal entitlement and no known left wing politics.

    OMG it will take them a 1000 years to tackle the US right wing politics.

    No fun short cuts or no strong scents.
    Loveed those and de-escalation.
    Has he ever been on a demo?

    Let’s all be chilled and get the Republicans out.
    I could go on but fell asleep

  33. David Smith says:

    I’m convinced these people are CIA plants to undermine and discredit any alternative to Fascism.
    Please, America; self-destruct now, for the good of the world!

  34. Capella says:

    OTOH there’s Donald Trump.
    I don’t think there’s any danger of the SNP going down the ultra woke route. They’re much too conventional for that. The Greens may be veering in this direction though.

    I would hope a balance would prevail – the middle way.

  35. Connor McEwen says:

    How about this by the SNP in Wheeshtminster

  36. A2 says:

    No farting (even Quietly)

  37. kapelmeister says:

    They would probably love to declare a Year Zero for a de-escalated non-conflictual society. Only they can’t use the Year Zero phrase ‘cos it was coined by they exceedingly conflict prone bampots the Khmer Rouge.

  38. jfngw says:

    The MSM and London unionist parties has its eye on another target presently, they think they can get another health secretary to resign. Apparently the union rep is some sort of construction expert, self appointed no doubt, and claims the building will need to be pulled down. This would seem extremely unlikely and presumably would be an issue for the building contractor.

    The method is a continual drip-drip of negative stories on the MSM fed to them, mostly by Labour and their union acolytes, in the vain hope that everyone will see Labour as the way forward. If Labour was the only option on the ballot paper I still wouldn’t vote for them.

  39. James Sneddon says:

    It’s satire isn’t it? (hands up)

  40. Merkin Scot says:

    ‘The Scent of Aggression’, the next James Bond with 007 showing off her new perfume, weaponised by Q and Pablo.

  41. Donald anderson says:

    You think that there are no Brit left gtrups like that?

  42. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexander at 2.23

    Absolute bloody rubbish. No doubt that is why all over the country the SNP branchess are going round the doors recording identified independence support – which has shot up on account of the Brexit nonsense.
    You know nothing about the SNP and nothing about politics or how it all works.
    Or perhaps you do understand that we are moving steadily towards independence and you would like to increase the division that is being promoted by pretend friends and unionist plants, many on this site.
    You think you are very clever and we are all daft.
    (Being clever of course is not the same as being wise).

  43. Muscleguy says:

    I lasted 1:23 then realised it was going to last the full 6minutes.

    The police in England are worried about their Millennial recruits who are apparently shocked by the shift system, by being sworn meaning you can get called in on your day off etc, who do not want anything to do with confrontation etc. etc.

    I blame a lot of parents for raising snowflake kids who are firstly utterly self obsessed and secondly who have never been allowed out by themselves, delivered to the school then picked up afterwards etc.

    In universities they know have to accommodate accompanying parents at open days, for postgraduate students not just undergrads. My wife has to field phone calls from parents seeking information like exam results and has to explain privacy laws and their offspring being adults mean they cannot give it to them.

    Part of the problem is also the ease of modern communications. When our kids left home it was like they were still here, constant requests for information, recipes, how-to’s, what do I do here’s? and all manner of stuff.

    When I went to the university at the other end of NZ from where we lived I wrote letters and phone calls, from fixed lines, were expensive because they were toll calls. So we figured stuff out ourselves by and large. But then we had been exposed to the world from a young age.

    At 5 I was walking to school with other kids, going into the town centre with my friend Andy on Saturday morning to the flicks for kids, Batman, Superman and Westerns with our sixpence pocket money. At 8 I would walk or cycle to the docks to spend the day fishing in company of other boys of all ages. All through secondary school I cycled 5 miles across the Auckland Isthmus and back again. For the first three years I got myself up at 05:30 for a paper run on my bike.

    I turned up at university on my own. Had to be aware enough to tell the taxi driver he had taken me to the wrong residential college. I bought a motorbike and travelled the length of NZ, almost several times a year on it. I could fix it myself as well, confidence and training from my Engineer father there.

    We tried with ours, sending them on bike rides, they both had morning paper runs but they were still way too clingy than we were.

  44. msean says:

    All that time spent yapping about basically nothing. Everything said there on that video could have been put on a welcome paper handout or something.

  45. Ken500 says:

    There are only about 1000 green members. They have lost 1/3 since 2014.

  46. Ken500 says:

    Young people nowadays travel the world. They are right to expect better working conditions and time off. The Police shifts are not good. Intolerable. The Police put too many people in cells overnight on ‘charges’ that cannot go to Court, A waste of time and money. They would get more time off if they did not.

  47. Doug says:

    # Woke up this mornin’

    My baby done left me.

    Woke up this mornin’

    Cos baby’s a she/he. #

  48. Legerwood says:

    Willie says:
    4 August, 2019 at 1:54 pm
    Dodgy but stable, everyone will get housed, and then BoJo was off.””
    When I saw the news reports on Thursday night and aerial shots of the village my first thought was how on earth did they get planning permission to build the houses so close to the dam? Some seemed to be on the slope leading to the reservoir.

    Second thought, how did they get insurance for there homes?
    And will they get insurance if they are allowed move back in?

  49. TYRAN says:

    This guy farts in a hanky.

  50. Haggishunter says:

    Anything deemed as a threat to the American and the British establishments (which are probably the same single establishment (since JFK was murdered)) gets infiltrated by “internal security”.
    I have seen it at SNP branch level during the 90s and it just took a couple of domineering clowns to scare away a whole branch. I remember they spent half a meeting talking about how they made £5.52 at a bric a brac sale. I mentioned I would give them £5.52 to change the subject, that was my last meeting until the clowns were moved on.

  51. Effijy says:

    Unionist Knuckle Draggers allowed to smash up Rugby Park and
    Endanger disabled supporter.

    Police and Stewards watching but taking no action.
    Can’t wait to see UK media suggest an Independence supporter
    set them off by carrying our countries Saltire?

    All forgiven for Betty’s Brain Dead Barbarians.

  52. galamcennalath says:

    Muscleguy at 4:13pm

    Your tale of contrasts certainly rings home.

    My friend’s and I ranged (rampaged might be an alternative word) over a large area on our bicycles in the 60s. Our parents had no idea where we were or what we got up to. I went to Uni at 17 and enjoyed my independence. At lot of my adventures might not have been to my parents’ liking.

    Our daughter’s experience was totally different. Mobile phone. Lifts everywhere and she rarely used her bike. When she went to Uni we all stayed in continual in touch thanks to the interwebbie.

    The biggest difference, in fact, has been how open I was with my parents compared to she with us. From about 11 I treated my parents on a strict need to know basis – what they didn’t know couldn’t offend them! Truth is that was life long.

    In contrast our daughter keeps us much more informed and involved in her life.

    The lack of communication created individuals more capable of sorting out their own issues as they arose. However, I have to ask myself, if that really better? Does that really make for a better society? Is it perhaps not better to be close to people, to share, to rely on others, and to cooperate?

    I suspect in the more distant past folks staying in their own areas more. Never moved far from friends and relatives. Then, we moved through a historical period when people did move more. And while this led to independent minded individuals, I don’t think it made for good society.

    Maybe now we have come out the other end where we can move around and still have close communication.

  53. CameronB Brodie says:

    Respecting the autonomy of Others can appear a full-time task, but that is what is required if one wishes to be an ethical rationalist. Unfortunately, this can sometimes make you appear a bit of a dick, which at least distinguishes the individual as not being a arsehole, i.e. a Tory.

    In a war for cultural supremacy though, it’s a bit like bringing a knife to a gun-fight, IMHO.

    Five Elements of Normative Ethics – A General Theory of Normative Individualism


    The article tries to inquire a third way in normative ethics between consequentialism or utilitarianism and deontology or Kantianism. To find such a third way in normative ethics, one has to analyze the elements of these classical theories and to look if they are justified. In this article it is argued that an adequate normative ethics has to contain the following five elements: (1) normative individualism, i. e., the view that in the last instance moral norms and values can only be justified by reference to the individuals concerned, as its basis; (2) consideration of the individuals’ concerns and interests—aims, desires, needs, strivings—insofar as they have a justificatory function; (3) a pluralism of references of these concerns and hence of moral norms and values to all possible elements of actions; (4) the necessity of a principle of aggregation and weighing with regard to these concerns; (5) finally, as a central principle of aggregation and weighing, the principle of relative reference to self and others, operating as a generalizing meta-principle that guides the application of concrete principles and decisions.

    Normative ethics, Ethics, Justification of morals, Justification of law, Non-consequentialism, Non-utilitarianism, Non-deontology, Non-Kantianism, Plurality of the elements of action

  54. ahundredthidiot says:


    ‘I blame a lot of parents for raising snowflake kids who are firstly utterly self obsessed and secondly who have never been allowed out by themselves, delivered to the school then picked up afterwards etc.’

    Probably, I wish I had been tougher on my own, but the degradation of society is everywhere and people in the West live in a constant state of fear. Not long ago I passed a banner outside the entrance to my local Uni which made me scoff, it said ‘….you’re view matters’ promoting some student survey or whatnot.

    Truth is their view/opinion or otherwise doesn’t matter – not one jot, they’re overgrown kids at Uni – no one gives a shit about their ‘view’.

    But the child knows no better, the real blame lies with those who can see it and let it go unchallenged.

  55. CameronB Brodie says:

    Ethical rationalism is worthwhile though, as it is a curative to cultural bias, and so aids better decision-making.

    The Social Dimension of Ethics: A Comparative


    How do we reach a conclusion that an act is morally right? Do we take other people into account when performing a morally right act? And what does this imply about our relations with other people? Moral philosophy addresses this interrelated array of questions concerning the social implications of ethics. Here I shall employ Kant’s Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals and Scanlon’s What We Owe to Each Other in order to outline their account of these matters, thereafter highlighting certain points of affinity and divergence between these two theories….

  56. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    The scary thing about these ultra-precious neurotics is that if they ever (God forbid!) got anywhere near power, they would rigidly and harshly enforce their multitudinous restrictions and prohibitions on everyone else, regardless. All in their best interest, of course. We’ve seen how that particular feature film ends already.

    The danger for us here is that, lacking tangible progress on the main front, displacement activity is a fatal attraction to the politically engaged, and its consequences can begin undermine the actual principal thing for which they are supposed to be working. Every government, no matter how generally successful, eventually accrues reputational damage through decisions taken. So we don’t have forever to get this independence thing sorted.

    Success breeds success. People need to see tangible positive outcomes if they are to continue to believe that independence isn’t just another impossible dream, and the indy movement begins to look like the woebegone dreamers of the above article.

  57. Dr Jim says:

    There’s nobody you can’t mock when you employ Reductio Absurdum to do it including the user

  58. CameronB Brodie says:

    Doh, that last title was.

    The Social Dimension of Ethics: A Comparative Analysis

    I know a bit about this stuff. I also know a bit about turning theory into practice. More later. 😉

    Autonomy, Oppression, and Gender

    Three Dimensions of Autonomy
    A Relational Analysis

    Theoretical work on relational autonomy over the last decade has significantly advanced our understanding of the constitutive social preconditions for individual autonomy. Yet significant disagreement remains concerning how the concept of autonomy and these social preconditions should be understood. This chapter argues that one reason for the persistence of these disagreements is confusion over the kind of concept that autonomy is. Its first aim is to propose that autonomy should be understood not as a unitary and context-invariant concept but as a multidimensional and context-sensitive concept.

    To develop this claim, three distinct, but causally interdependent, dimensions of autonomy are distinguished and explicated: self-determination, self-governance, and self-authorization. Each of these involves distinct conditions that may be satisfied to varying degrees. The second aim of the chapter is to develop a relational interpretation of the three dimensions of autonomy and their distinct conditions.

    Autonomy, relational autonomy, self-determination, self-governance, self-authorization

  59. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Haggishunter @ 16:52,

    Without presenting any evidence, I don’t see any connection between those two parts of your comment, merely a hint of paranoia. I don’t imagine the security services have anything like the manpower resources (or inclination) to fill every random SNP branch with a pair of specially-selected dummies.

    On the other hand, it’s a matter of everyday observation of life that there are plenty of officious clowns in organisations – bureaucracy attracts them like flies to you-know-what – and the SNP is surely no exception to that. Idealists we may be, but let’s not pretend the indy movement is exclusively populated by sanctified angels; we’re just as perversely human as everyone else.

  60. Robert Louis says:

    Muscleguy at 413pm,

    Whilst i don’t like any of this ‘woke’ rubbish, I am afraid I am with the young folk when it comes to their job demands. From their perspective, they see things as they really are. Greedy employers creaming off massive profits for the very, very few, who are obscenely rich, while they are expected to work for a pittance. In my opinion these you folk have the right attitude. Loook at the likes of Amazon, an appalling employer, yet owned by a man who is obscenely rich, yet refuses to let his staff share in his wealth. Greedy, greedy capitalist pig.

    In the dim and distant past, employers expected loyalty and hard work from employees, but the deal was that in return the employee could have a long very stable career. A ‘job for life’. I recall being told at school that essentially a job at the Royal Bank of Scotland could be a job for life, for good workers. Now look at things. Employers want hard work and that same dedication, but are not prepared to hold to their side of ‘the bargain’. No career for life, zero hours, rotten conditions, low, low pay, and definitely NEVER a proper career or ‘job for life’.

    And this really gets to the core of the issue. Young people see all of that. It is not that they are lazy, rather it is just that all they can see is employers who treat their staff like dogs, and hire and fire whenever, pay sh*t wages, whilst creaming off obscene profits for the few, yet oddly demand some kind of dedication from employees. They rightly ask, ‘why would we be dedicated or work hard for such sh*t people??

    In that respect, the so-called ‘snowflake generation are RIGHT, and they have my full backing.

  61. Robert Peffers says:

    @Arbroath1320 says: 4 August, 2019 at 1:28 pm:

    ” … don’t talk to cops?

    Yes really SERIOUSLY – you do know, don’t you, that the USA has a serious problem of cops shooting dead people from minority groups — and getting away with it?

    Not only that but a serious problem of almost daily episodes when armed white extremist shoot up and kill those they consider their enemies and they are backed up by the POTUS who regularly makes references to right wing extremism ideas in his speeches.

    The news today is full of reports of a white right wing extremist killing 20 odd people and wounding 20 odd more innocent people. It is getting almost like a weekly occurrence these days in the USA. It is part of the USA constitution that the USA citizens have the right to bear arms. I think I’d be a bit careful if I was a lefty in the USA. There’s a great many USAsians alive today who remember McCarthyism

    The Wild West is still alive and kicking in the USA. Ever heard of Slab City? They boast that it is, “The last place in America where there is no law”.

  62. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi ahundredthidiot at 5:06 pm.

    You typed,
    “Not long ago I passed a banner outside the entrance to my local Uni which made me scoff, it said ‘….you’re view matters’ promoting some student survey or whatnot.”

    I wouldn’t have been thinking that their views didn’t matter – I’d be more shaking my head at the use of “you’re”, meaning “you are”, instead of the possessive “your”, meaning the views “of you”, on an official banner at a university.

  63. Hamish100 says:

    A2 says:
    4 August, 2019 at 3:09 pm
    No farting (even Quietly)

    The quiet ones are the smelliest. My wife has proven that time and time again.

    ps please don’t show her my comment!!

  64. Athanasius says:

    They are, quite literally, parasites. They’ve infested the body of the Democratic Party and are currently in the process of killing it. Like the old British Communist Party, they can neither survive or thrive on their own, which is why, under the banner of Militant, they infiltrated the Labour Party in the 80s. Plus ca change…

  65. Armitage Shanks says:

    Too late Rev, the seeds are sown, this is the future of the liberal left coming here soon. Dissenting voices will be labeled phobic, racist, fascist, add your prefix.

  66. ahundredthidiot says:

    Brian Doonthetoon

    nope…….that’ll be my hangover

  67. galamcennalath says:

    OT “Edinburgh festival performers refuse sterling payments due to Brexit

    Artists ask to be paid in euros and dollars as pound continues to fall amid no-deal risk “

    Stories like this should bring home to Brexiteers the absolute absurdity of the self harm project they continue to pursue.

  68. CameronB Brodie says:

    Armitage Shanks
    Why not give your arse a chance, it might talk more sense. Or do you simply support patriarchy?

    VulnerabilityNew Essays in Ethics and Feminist Philosophy

    The Importance of Relational Autonomy and Capabilities for an Ethics of Vulnerability

    Recent theoretical work on vulnerability seeks to dissociate the concept from negative connotations of victimhood, helplessness, neediness and pathology, re-conceptualizing vulnerability as an ontological condition of our embodied humanity. Yet in much of this work vulnerability is understood in opposition to autonomy.

    This essay argues that it is a mistake to conceive of vulnerability and autonomy as oppositional, and that such an approach invites objectionably paternalistic and coercive forms of intervention to protect those identified as vulnerable. It proposes that relational conceptions of autonomy can reconcile the apparent tension between autonomy and vulnerability. Finally, it argues that the obligation to foster autonomy is a matter of social justice and that capabilities theory provides the most promising theoretical framework for articulating this claim and for promoting democratic equality.

    vulnerability, autonomy, relational autonomy, paternalism, capabilities, social justice

  69. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    This is an even-handed read, looking at what could happen in the next wee while…

  70. PictAtRandom says:

    Further reading:

    I’m just finishing The coddling of the American mind by Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt. It relates the “safetyism” culture to the style of parenting mentioned by Muscleguy and others. The overuse of social media (rather than the Internet as such) also seems a major factor. Behaviour seems to change in those born around 1995. They arrived on campus c.2013 and the “micro-aggression” &c stuff really seems to have got going around that time. Seems to be the road to paralysis.

  71. Garrion says:

    this is how the new right won the war. I’m truly hoping that after the last RISE debacle, we have learned our lesson and dismissed these eedjits to the irrelevence that they are. Globally.

  72. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 18:32,

    Hmmm, what are the chances of getting my pension paid in euros, d’ye think…?

    “It does not mean that … the pound in your pocket … has been devalued” was a bonkers assurance back when, and bonkers it remains today. The thing that could finish the present bonkers UKGov isn’t another pointless vote in WM, but a rapidly-sinking pound. Shades of Suez and Black Monday combined. =gulp=

    (And to think that we’ve been busy until recently obsessing about how exactly we might want to continue using pounds sterling.)

  73. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Peffers, you….*counts to ten* Police in America shoot anything and everything and get away with it, especially caucasians – it’s just of little interest to the MSM. And whatever toll builds up under white supremacist shooters pales into utter insignificance compared to black on white murders. We all fucking know about it.

    If you’ve got one of your entirely fabricated anecdotes ready, then save it for the birds.

  74. Welsh Sion says:

    Nothing new, eh Scotland? And you’re supposed to think this is satire, huh? Har bloody har.

  75. galamcennalath says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:

    This is an even-handed read, looking at what could happen in the next wee while…

    Indeed, seems very even handed to me too. Not so sure your average BritNat would see the analysis in quite the same way 😉

    No mention of once in a generation shite, no mandate shite, or youse canny afford it shite. The BritNat world view is somewhere far far away.

  76. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liberal society has historically been structured through legal forms of exclusion, such as racism and sexism. We need to change our social practices, if we are to undo the social marginalisation and other social harms that this legacy continues to cause.

    Sorry for the length of this post but it is kind of the reason most of us are here. A respect for the autonomy of Others. Or the lack of (see Scotland’s democratic deficit and the full-English Brexit).

    Relational Autonomy from a Political Perspective


    Individual autonomy is crucial to both liberalism and feminism and, to some extent, for similar reasons: that is, the insistence on everyone being able to shape her own life and not just have it shaped for her. As it is currently understood, however, this ideal is a source of great dissatisfaction for feminists. For one, it is blind to the ‘problem of oppression’ – that is the way social factors, such as oppressive gender norms, can affect individuals’ capacity to lead a self-governed life.

    In addition, on the political level, autonomy is aligned with individualism, independence and rationality. This makes it an exclusionary ideal, which, under the cover of universalism, promotes a prejudiced and narrow vision of what agents and preferences should be seen as worthy of respect. I refer to this as the problem of exclusion. My thesis is an attempt to reframe our understanding of autonomy in order to answer these two problems.

    I argue that the relational accounts of autonomy feminists have articulated should be understood as motivated by the need to address these key concerns (Ch. 1). However, none of the relational accounts developed so far truly succeed in simultaneously addressing the problem of oppression and the problem of exclusion (Ch. 2). I suggest that this is because they are still too individualistic in their focus and remain fixed on the question of what individual agent and/or preference should be considered autonomous.

    In order to ensure we avoid the problem of exclusion, I propose we remain agnostic towards this question. This results in a systematic presumption of autonomy, which commits us to demonstrate respect to all agents (especially vulnerable ones), as well as to their declared preferences. Such a commitment, however, should not lead us to overlook the problem of oppression. In order to address this problem, I argue that we should devote our attention to the way the socio-relational context structures how agents can plausibly exercise their autonomy.

    In other words, in order to address the problem of oppression without reproducing the problem of exclusion, we need to stop focusing on the question of who should be considered autonomous and instead refocus on the question of what structural changes might promote the autonomy of all (Ch. 3). I call the resulting account an ‘agnostic and structural’ understanding of autonomy. I argue that such a conception of autonomy is promising as it offers an inclusive conception of self-government, which nonetheless gives us grounds to vindicate substantial emancipatory policies.

    I then present a set of case studies in order to show how such a conception of autonomy could help us deal with entrenched gender inequalities. Doing so enables me to illustrate the difference adopting an ‘agnostic and structural’ conception of autonomy could make in the areas of our legal system that are underpinned by an individualistic understanding of autonomy. Legal frameworks surrounding parental leave (Ch. 4), divorce and separation (Ch. 5), domestic violence (Ch. 6) and even our understanding of criminal responsibility (Ch. 7), I argue, could be effectively reframed using the kind of understanding of autonomy I propose.

  77. HC says:

    Now I know where Plaid Cymru under Leanne Wood got their inspiration from !

  78. jfngw says:

    Argh! Lord Thickby Mones is tweeting about Scotland and the SNP, again. Such ignorance, such conceit. The irony of his tweet I suspect he may be unaware of, or else he thinks we would believe this nonsense and we are the fools.

  79. galamcennalath says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    And to think that we’ve been busy until recently obsessing about how exactly we might want to continue using pounds sterling.

    Indeed. That was the pound sterling of a member of the EU with all the stability and security that brought.

    The pound sterling of a lost-in-mid-Atlantic failed economy is probably something iScotland might want to distance itself from!

  80. CameronB Brodie says:

    Lord Thickby Mones is a chauvinistic, English nationalist, Tory. Subsequently, he completely lacks respect for the relational autonomy of Others.

    Autonomy, Self-Knowledge, and Liberal Legitimacy,%20Self-Knowledge,%20and%20Liberal%20Legitimacy.pdf

  81. PictAtRandom says:

    The idea of pegging the merk / croun to a basket of other currencies is one that interests me. We’d need to think about “who we are” economically. Maybe a bit of Norway, a bit of Denmark, a bit of Canada and a bit of Ireland (which unfortunately doesn’t have its own currency). Maybe add in a percentage of gold for extra stability?

  82. Ghillie says:

    Ken 500 @ 1.20pm Thank you. A refreshing voice of reason =)

    Dave MacEwan Hill @ 3.54pm Well said =)

    Well done Rev Stu for drawing out the usual suspects.

  83. Dan Yell says:

    What a coalition of the thin-skinned, I bet they’ll be suing journalists for calling them homophobic next, eh Stu?

  84. Big Jock says:

    People who think we can wait for the next GE, or after Brexit for Indy ref 2. Need a reality check.

    Why do you think the Yoons keep telling us we have no mandate? Because they want us to think we don’t, because we will win. More importantly though. We will not be sitting in the status quo if today in a years time. The unionists will be dismantling our nation. Indeed they have already started this process ,with the new North British office, and withholding EU farmers subsidies.

    We are in an emergency situation. Outside the EU the Brits will run riot with everything we hold dear to us.

    Scotland is in grave danger. This is not a choice, it’s a necessity to our very existence.

  85. stewartb says:

    PictAtRandom @ 7:28 pm

    Re- your comment on pegging an indy Scotland’s currency to a basket of currencies. You note that Ireland : “unfortunately (a negative sentiment which you don’t explain!) doesn’t have its own currency” and then also refer to Denmark.

    Denmark does indeed still have its own currency, the krone, and, as you may know, it is pegged to the Euro via the ERM II, the European Union’s exchange rate mechanism.

  86. mike cassidy says:

    Does this mean we will all be reduced to communicating with Bob-Fosse-jazz-hands?

    What happens when sign-language people start shouting at each other?

  87. Armitage Shanks says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 6:33 Actually I’m an egalitarian. Your derogatory remarks reveal you may have overdosed on intersectionality. ‘A respect for the autonomy of Others’ unless their views diverge from your own narrative? And by the way, I guess most don’t bother to read the long-winded papers you cut and paste from the world of academia (LSE online) you understand how alien that is to the majority of folk? Anyway, what’s my ass got to do with anything?

  88. Jock McDonnell says:

    Maggots ?

    This isn’t inclusion. Its exclusion.
    I direct the casual reader to Noam Chomsky’s work on how the powers that be limit the terms & language of debate. Or the constant revisions of the dictionary from 1984.

  89. Colin Alexander says:

    Tony Benn developed five questions about “democracy”: That we could ask Boris Johnson and the UK Govt.

    Q1 “What power have you got?”

    UK Parliament has absolute power or “sovereignty”, according to UK constitutional teachings. (UK Parliament is Crown, Lords and Commons).

    Q2 “Where does it get its absolute or ultimate power (sovereignty) from?”

    UK Parliament has sovereignty because it is delegated from the “sovereign”, the Queen of England, following the Royalists losing the English civil war.

    Q3 “In whose interests do you exercise it?” For the ruling elite people of the UK, also known as the British Establishment.

    Q4 “To whom are you accountable?” Tory MPs and the Queen.

    “And how can we get rid of you?” We cannot by means of UK politics. The UK system is designed to maintain and protect the status quo. As a former Peer and English MP, Mr Benn had no answer to this anymore than the cartoon character of the same name.

    For Scotland:

    Scotland elects only 59 out of 650 MPs. These MPs are now second-class MPs following the introduction of EVEL.

    The SNP can never win playing the Westminster game. Yet, the SNP are playing the Westminster game big time.

    They are trying to block the UK’s vote to Leave instead of upholding Scotland’s vote to Remain. They voted to impose direct Westminster rule over N.I. regarding abortion and same sex marriage laws.

    The SNP have no democratic right to impose their politics on others in the UK, which is the other side of the coin of non-Scotland UK MPs and Lords imposing UK policies on Scotland.

    Instead of emphasising Scotland’s sovereignty, the SNP leadership are acting like they fully buy into the one nation Britain Unionist mantra. This is the SNP doing SNP party politics just like the British parties; it harms Scotland’s fight to exercise her sovereignty.

  90. CameronB Brodie says:

    Armitage Shanks
    What do you know about intersectionality then, pray tell? In case you don’t, or won’t, or can’t, it has sod all to do with affirming gender dysphoria.

    “‘A respect for the autonomy of Others’ unless their views diverge from your own narrative?”

    Your comment was inaccurate and exuded prejudice. Respecting prejudice is the quickest way to an intolerant and authoritarian society.

    “And by the way, I guess most don’t bother to read the long-winded papers you cut and paste from the world of academia (LSE online) you understand how alien that is to the majority of folk?”

    Of course I do, but I also appreciate the roll that education plays in social emancipation. Something you might want to consider before spouting more bigoted pish.

  91. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi jfngw at 7:18 pm.

    You typed,
    “Argh! Lord Thickby Mones is tweeting about Scotland and the SNP, again. Such ignorance, such conceit. The irony of his tweet I suspect he may be unaware of, or else he thinks we would believe this nonsense and we are the fools.

    I actually spent far too much time reading all the tweets on that page.

    What struck me was that the anti-indy tweets were full of the propaganda that we Scots have been subjected to since 2013 or thereaboots.

    The tweets shooting them down were, on the whole, made up of hard facts, like what we get from WOS, “Talking up Scotland”, WGD and so on.

    After indy, when the truth permeates down to those who have accepted the MSM’s take on things, I would expect a lot of residents, south of the border, will be asking why they were lied to, about England subsidising Scotland.

    What was the point?

    Scotland’s resources; that was the point…

  92. Jock McDonnell says:

    The Herald reporting that a ‘roof collapsed’ at Rugby Park. Apparently its under investigation by Kilmarnock FC. Its all about the ‘framing’ as Orwell might well have said.

  93. galamcennalath says:

    Apparently there will be a comprehensive Scottish poll released tomorrow!

    Hope it has some good news 🙂

  94. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I lasted up to the 3 mins mark then stopped as I was grinding my teeth.

    You can spend years building a party branch (e.g. the SSP one I was in from late 2012 until the 2015 GE) and it takes just one of these fekkin eejits to wreck it.

    They’re pests.

  95. Lochside says:

    These people that Rev posted are irrelevant, for the moment anyway. The ‘left’ is a broad definition of political opinion and this lot of navel gazing puritans ain’t worth the time.

    Meanwhile capitalist britnat imperial fascists like Digby Jones deserve closer watching(see video @ fngw’ at 7.18pm’)
    His Largeness’ tweet is part of the incessant barrage of bullshit aimed at undermining Scottish confidence, and is designed to prevent removal of our life support to them, which has supported their parasitic lifestyles and corrupt political economic system for three centuries.

    Interesting how the most obvious solution for ‘No Deal’ England and its unbearable elite to smoothly achieve said end is to simply dissolve the Union unilaterally and leave us, N.I. and its immovable backstop, along with pesky old Wales ‘floundering and scrambling to replace our ‘greatest ‘ trading partner?

    So why don’t they? Qui Bono as ever!

  96. galamcennalath says:

    Johnson pledges an extra £1.8bn for the NHS.

    That, is almost exactly 10% of the promise he made on the side of a bus!

  97. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Lochside @ 21:14,

    Anybody in Scotland who is influenced (other than oppositionally) by anything written by that exceptionalist larded buffoon Digby Jones really does need a dual brain + spine transplant.

    It would almost be worthwhile crowd-funding a speaking tour of Scotland by that bumptious knight of the realm. After enduring a defence of the Union by him, the undecided would likely switch to yes in their droves.

    Just one much-needed example of “seein’ oorsels as ithers see us” to wake up those poor self-deluded PSBs.

  98. CameronB Brodie says:

    I can’t help it if I’ve been trained to tackle patriarchy, at its cultural root. I’m just sorry it has taken so long for everything to click back in to place for me.


    Margaret Moore’s book A Political Theory of Territory makes an important contribution to the recently renewed effort of contemporary political philosophers to make sense of states’ territorial rights from a broadly liberal ethical perspective.1 Moore’s own theory is that territorial rights are possessed by collective actors called ‘peoples’ in virtue of their collective right to self-determination.

    An important and apparently liberal premise in her justification of this collective right is the idea that it protects both collective and individual autonomy. In what follows I shall focus critically on this autonomy-based aspect of her theory.

  99. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexander at 8.40

    Perhaps I should print this in big letters so you can understand.
    The SNP acknowledges that leaving the EU, particularly a no deal exit, will be a catastrophe for Scotland. (It will be a catastrophe for all of UK)

    Presently the only way to prevent this catastrophe is to stop the UK leaving the EU.
    Do you get that part of it so far?
    So the SNP obviously and properly will play a full part in any coalition that can prevent the UK leaving the EU.

    If we are dragged out on 31st October the SNP will move quickly for a referendum.

    If we stay in the SNP will proceed to a referendum in 2020 without the massive argument against independence of independence setting up a “hard ” border between Scotland and England. Tendentious bollocks of dubious accuracy we know but it will be very powerful with some people.

    Unless you have inherited some of the gifts of Nostradamus you have no more idea than anybody else of where we will be in October. Nicola Sturgeon is playing this exactly right.

  100. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ashcroft Comprehensive Indy poll to be published tomorrow at 7am, i also took part in apanelbase poll yesterday

  101. stu mac says:

    @Reluctant Nationalist says:
    4 August, 2019 at 7:01 pm

    Quite a rant but considering the seriousness, how about some reference to back up what you say?

  102. Legerwood says:

    Jock McDonnell says:
    4 August, 2019 at 9:02 pm
    The Herald reporting that a ‘roof collapsed’ at Rugby Park. Apparently its under investigation by Kilmarnock FC. Its all about the ‘framing’ as Orwell might well have said.””

    BBC framing it in similar fashion. ‘Police investigate roof collapse’. Nothing to do then with the yobs dancing on the, clearly flimsy, roof then – or at least that is the impression they want to give especially to those who just scan the headlines.

  103. Artyhetty says:


    I wonder though who is making enemies of who though?
    Scotland and the SNP as far as I can see are erring on the side of caution, and definitely not doing anything to make enemies, it could be to Scotland’s detriment, I hope not.

    However, by what I have seen and read lately, Scotland is being ‘othered’, even to the point of literally telling people in England that Scotland is scrounging and free loading off the backs of them. Taking their actual cash out of their hands and food out of their babes’ mouths. Now if that’s not an attempt at dividing and making ‘enemies’ of a whole population and a country, I don’t know what is. It is though sinister in the extreme, because it legitimises the othering of Scotland, fuelling hatred even, and legitimises, if the Britnats are desperate enough, either an actual attack on Scotland, or, sanctions via a massive budget cut, then, basically direct rule.

    Be in no doubt, the Britnats are dab hands at demonising who they consider to be their enemies.

    If they could get away with it, the Britnats would say that Scotland are taking all of their free NHS and benefits, oh, wait…you know like they say the ‘immigrants’ are doing. It’s all orchestrated, by the Britnats, to keep comtrol of Scotland and keep stealing Scotland’s resources, easy peasy.

  104. jfngw says:

    ACG the LibDem publicity seeker is in full mode now. Funnily he claims that you can’t use his Remain vote as justification for Indyref2. He has no qualms about using peoples No vote to take them out of the EU, presumably his justification is that a No vote was giving another country the decisive power over Scotland.

    The bad news for him is the Remain vote is the will of the people of Scotland and the Scottish Government must obey the will of the Scottish people and take whatever action is required to fulfil that Remain vote. Votes have consequences, even for ACG.

  105. Artyhetty says:

    Re; Dave McEwan Hill @9.48pm

    Yep, spot on as far as anyone with any sense can see. You don’t reveal your cards to your opposition, unless you are really daft.

  106. Effijy says:

    galamcennalath says:
    4 August, 2019 at 9:17 pm
    Johnson pledges an extra £1.8bn for the NHS.

    That, is almost exactly 10% of the promise he made on the side of a bus!

    No! The Bus promised and extra £350 Million per week to the NHS.
    If I ever materialised, which it won’t, the £1.8 Billion is just over 5 weeks money.

  107. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Effijy @ 22:35,

    Well, even the promises only have to last until (just after) the coming UKGE anyway. And that’s not long away.

  108. kapelmeister says:

    Mandy Rhodes tweets that the indy poll is “hot stuff”.

    Doesn’t sound like no change. And BoJo surely hasn’t won over Scotland.

  109. Dr Jim says:

    I doubt very much that the SNP can stop a no deal Brexit or any kind of Brexit but I also believe they know that and for folk who think Scotland shouldn’t be interfering in what England wants to do with itself they might consider this idea, maybe the SNP see the world as watching everything that’s happening in the UK right now and given that Scotland wishes to either rejoin or stay in the EU perhaps the SNP are considering that the other 27 countries of the EU are watching us too in order to ascertain our sincerity on what we say we want

    Is Scotland a good bet for the EU? Well on the SNPs performance so far you’d have to think yes from their point of view because if all the SNP wanted to do is see England fail and sat back and watched them do it the EU might consider the SNP aren’t such nice people as they’d hoped they were and given the chance might just as well shaft the EU

    Lovely to see England go down the tubes, no country deserves it more, but maybe it’s not a good look Internationally to be seen enjoying it

    Oh dear how sad never mind, but look sad

  110. jfngw says:

    22:14 post: That should be ACH not ACG.

  111. Effijy says:

    Watch this clip and understand why Kilmarnock FC may face disciplinary action
    And fines for not making the disabled fans shelter roof strong enough to hold rampaging
    Unionist Knuckle Draggers?

    Independence supporters be aware that if one of Betty’s OO finest punches
    You in the face you will be prosecuted for having your face in a location likely
    To cause offence.

    Could any inquiry politely ask why the policemen just strolled past the violent act of
    Vandalism that endangered the Disabled fans below them.

  112. galamcennalath says:


    £350million a week is £18billion per annum. Ten times what he’s offering.

  113. kapelmeister says:

    It’s Kilmarnock F.C.’s fault for not having dug-out roofs that can bear Bears.

  114. Liz g says:

    Dr Jim @ 10.44
    Well I hope they don’t go too far down the tubes Dr Jim !
    We’ve still to collect our share of the UK assets 🙂
    I thought that’s why the Scottish Government was keen to keep them solvent, a failed state is no good to us.
    The English across the EU table and committed to doing business within an agreed set of rules ( they don’t get to try to make ) is of more use to us than a basket case on the door step trying to get wide!
    Although I do agree that there’s no much more we can do for them.
    While we’re stuck in this bloody Union we should at least have a thing to say about it.

  115. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dr Jim @ 22:44,

    Oh, assuming we are not following, we will indeed savour, without too much effort to hide it, the comeuppance of the Brexit cliffedge cheerleaders as they finally teeter and plummmet over the side. But we should have a sympathetic thought for all those decent ordinary English folk who are caught up in this nightmare from which they can’t wake up.

    And maybe even a smidgen of sympathy for the Brexit f-wits, who are going to pay far more for their cheap thrill the day after than the snake-oil merchants who sold them their toxic heady brew in the first place.

  116. Thepnr says:

    @Reluctant Nationalist

    “Police in America shoot anything and everything and get away with it, especially caucasians – it’s just of little interest to the MSM. And whatever toll builds up under white supremacist shooters pales into utter insignificance compared to black on white murders. We all fucking know about it.”

    Living up to your name again I see you absolute TRUMPet.

    The reality is that twice as many Blacks and Hispanics are shot by police as are Caucasians per head of population.

    The race make up of the US is just over 60% white yet the number of Hispanic and black people shot to death by police is just about the same as white people. In other words non whites are 50% more likely to be shot than whites are.

    You’re just a racist bastard eh Reluctant Nationalist as you made so obvious when you first appeared on Wings. You have continued to do since so you can fuck right off, call me a “WOKE lefty” if you want but an Independent Scotland will be a better place without your bile and your right wing crap infesting it.

    Do me a favour, fuck off and don’t bother coming back. You tend to make the place stink.

  117. Petra says:

    The first executive decision made by, and pushed through, by Boris Johnston. Slipped in whilst we’re all focused on Brexit plus the clown’s many financial promises. Well worth a read.

  118. Fireproofjim says:

    I can’t bear Bears either.

  119. Dr Jim says:

    @Liz 10:58pm

    They won’t pay up Liz, look at their attitude towards Ireland, I have no hopes of England ever honouring agreements, they’ve no history of it and they never seem to want to learn or understand that others can be right

    I fully expect when Indyref is announced they will threaten Scotland with everything short of nuclear armaggeddon because this time they KNOW they’re losing and that’ll bring out the real bad in them, last time the thought of losing never occurred to them until the last minute and they weren’t prepared, this time I fear it’ll be different

    We’ll likely be issued with *get under your dinner table* warnings, I’m joking but I believe it’s going to be bad and when Lord Ashcroft’s poll comes out in the morning and says what we think it’s going to say, the bad will go into overdrive

  120. Colin Alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    Say the SNP get their way: UK remains in the EU.

    Say the SNP then also get their way and people were still given the chance to vote for indy for Scotland ( which would be unlikely as the mandate gave an example of dragged out the EU against our will) : A Yes win would mean Scotland would be leaving the UK and EU. This would result in an EU hard border anyway and in an indyref campaign the UK would threaten to veto Scotland rejoining the EU, as rUK would probably continue to be a member state if Scotland gets indy.

    Or more likely, people would again vote to remain part of the UK/ EU Single Market.

    At least with UK (including Scotland) out of the EU, there would be no need for a hard border between Scotland and England, (if that’s your number one concern). The hard border would be between UK and EU.

    But then, If we are part of the UK and out of the EU, a YES vote would not put Scotland out of the EU, as we’d be already out.

    When UK is out the EU, a YES vote would mean: we are free decide to decide our trade deals with rUK or EU, to be in a trading bloc with either rUK or the EU or whatever looks best at the time. But, we decide as a sovereign nation. rUK would have no EU member state veto on Scotland rejoining the EU. Only EU member states would have a veto.


    The SNP aren’t daft, they have this worked out. Campaigning to keep the UK in the EU is about an expectation and policy of protecting Scotland’s interests as part of the UK, not based on the premise of Scotland becoming an independent sovereign Scotland in the coming years.

  121. Liz g says:

    Dr Jim @ 11.37
    Your probably right Dr Jim, but that they owe us and don’t pay has a lot more power than if they can’t pay.
    They leave themselves wide open to being seen as demonstrably untrustworthy ( I know they always have been but we can join the dots and trigger memories for the globe) just at a time when they badly need to trade..

    And the one demand that the Colonies couldn’t make is the proper share of the treasure that the Windsors hold in trust for “The” Nation.
    Even the demand for a inventory of it all will make them worry that their own people will wake up to the obscene wealth that they don’t get to share,which will make a mockery of the tale ( which I believe they will spin)
    that it’s not the fault of Westminster that the English are broke, it’s somehow Scotland’s.
    And, yes you are right, the nasty narrative is about to start,fortunately it will come as nay surprise to half the country and a quarter will get mad then even…. it’s the other quarter who will be stunned at being so shunned….. Unintended consequences indeed 🙂

  122. Thepnr says:

    @Colin Alexander

    You excel at writing a lot of mince, you lost any credibility you might have had a long time ago, yet you persist hahaha. Dick.

  123. Liz g says:

    Thepnr @ 11.10
    Well said

  124. Clapper57 says:

    Testing Testing….some people say I am VERY Testing…me bad.

  125. Petra says:

    We’re being subjected to the “Nicola Sturgeon should focus on Independence and leave Brexit well alone” on here constantly. Nicola Sturgeon’s sole focus is on the wellbeing of the Scots to my mind. Others may think that it’s got more to do with her having some kind of a a cushy number with a lucrative salary; one that’s been voluntarily frozen at a 2008 level. If that’s what you think it’s just absolute nonsense for if she downed tools and walked away from us tomorrow she could command a load of dough salary with a tenth of her current workload and associated stress, so why does she continue to add to her workload by doing her utmost to halt Brexit altogether or attempt to lesson the gravity of the fallout of Brexit?

    She and Alex Salmond were let down by the Scots in 2014. You could see that they, like us, expected to win. And like us, 1000 times more so than us no doubt, were absolutely devastated with the result. Well we didn’t win, as we know, and she can’t leave the outcome of Indyref2 to chance this time around either. Yes she wants independence for Scotland, with her heart and soul, but she has to be minded that if we let her / them down again the damage from Brexit for Scotland will be mitigated. And then as Liz points out “a failed state is no good for us” for any number of reasons, imo, over and above our share of the assets. For one we’ll expect them to fork out for State pensions. And then there’s the fallout for us from civil unrest south of the border and so on.

    Nicola Sturgeon is working her backside off for us. Dealing with the day job, Brexit and a forthcoming Indyref2, whilst having to combat her, and our, many enemies. If people, the whiners on here, can’t see that, then they’re either totally naive or don’t actually support Independence at all. In most cases the latter reason I suspect.

  126. Hamish100 says:


    if Scotland Votes for Independence the new status will not happen the following day so your premise is wrong.

  127. Hamish100 says:


    Good points well made.

  128. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Colin Alexander @ 23:57,

    It’s becoming ever harder to follow your various instantiations as they switch tack from one position to another. Are you quite well, or are you in fact a little band of brothers – a collective even – though unhappily not entirely in sync…?

    The history of the opposition to independence is going to make quite a read when it eventually gets written. I sometimes wonder if that’s the real reason why some people are so dead set against indy. So many skeletons just waiting to tumble out…

  129. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Hamish100 @ 00:46,

    Whatever the minutiae to follow, the very day that Scotland votes for independence is the last day that the London government can speak for us. On anything. From then on we represent ourselves to the rest of the world.

  130. Hamish100 says:


  131. Thepnr says:


    Well said, it’s quite clear that those that don’t want Independence will run down the Scottish government and it’s leader at every opportunity. Let’s face it they have to do that so the so called newspapers and the BBC, STV, SKY etc will do it every single day.

    They’ll tell us that “we can’t have a referendum without permission” or that “Nicola Surgeon doesn’t have a mandate”.

    They say that Independence supporters are impatient and demand a referendum NOW. All of this this is mind games, there messing with us.

    Nicola Sturgeon knows this of course unlike the halfwits who would have went for a referendum a year ago. Right now we are in a much better position to win one than we ever were and it won’t be long now when there will never have been a better time time to have a second referendum. Boris will make sure of that for us.

    Those that are still screaming NOW NOW NOW are trolls and working for our opponents. It’s coming soon, I really hope that every genuine Independence supporter here is ready and willing. You get nought for free and we will still need to work to win,

    First there’s likely a General Election to get out of the way but no matter the result Nicola Sturgeon WILL be announcing the Scottish government’s intention to hold a second referendum. If it’s refused then it will either be ignored or contested in the courts.

    Ignore the naysayers on here that constantly slag off the SNP, they are not interested in Independence, quite the opposite obviously.

    You, yes YOU had better get ready if you really do want your country to once again make all decisions for itself rather than a Westminster government. You’ll have work to do in order to make that a reality and in fact you should be doing it already as I am. Ask yourself this, am I doing enough?

  132. CameronB Brodie says:

    So Sir David Edward might be persuaded to vote for independence? Just how exclusionary and discriminatory must British politics become, before some Scots realise that contemporary British nationalism is not a liberal ideology. It is a malignant social pathology. An expansionist form of authoritarian English nationalism.

    It is not possible to claim legal rights without a legal personality, and Westminster obviously thinks it has sovereign authority over all of us, despite Scotland’s “Claim of Rights” and our individual EU legal citizenship. The Tories have no friends worth mentioning up here, so it is the height of fantasy to expect them not to dump on us, when politically expedient.

    The Oxford Handbook of Continental Philosophy
    Freedom as Autonomy

    Abstract and Keywords

    The interpretation of individual freedom as autonomy or ‘self-governance’ has a long tradition reaching back at least to early modern natural law theory and, before that, the Stoic tradition of the Graeco-Roman period (Schneewind). However, in the modern era, the idea of autonomy became a central category through which the individual’s relation to the world, to others, and to his own inner self or motivational structure was reconceived.

    Despite the fact that today the ideal of autonomy has many critics, much of the contemporary literature is best read as contributing to a refinement of that ideal rather than as a rejection of it. Modern attempts to understand freedom as autonomy produced a wave of philosophical reflection whose effects can be seen in Romanticism, in the nineteenth-century reactions of Kierkegaard and Nietzsche, in the existentialist movement, and in the various contemporary attempts to refine, extend, and appropriate this radical ideal.

    autonomy, self-governance, law theory, Graeco-Roman period, Romanticism

  133. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Sir David Edward
    I hope this prompts that legal mind of yours to re-evaluate the moral justification for supporting British nationalism, and the cultural oppression of Scotland’s popular sovereignty.

    Or do you think the British constitution is rightly designed to only provide legal protection to those who believe Britain is One Nation? I take it you’re not a fan of natural law and natural justice. I also find it hard to imagine you are unaware of the responsibility of public policy, to remain within bounded rationality and to avoid doing harm. Are you perhaps a Tory, if that isn’t a personal question?

    Autonomy and citizenship in plural societies

    This paper seeks to offer some thoughts on the relationship between personal autonomy as an ideal of individual self-direction and citizenship as a form of collective life. As Richard Dagger puts it, ‘autonomy and civic virtue are often taken to be at odds with each other because one has to do with individual liberty, the other with collective responsibility’.1

  134. CameronB Brodie says:

    OK, I might be getting a bit technical here, but there is no getting away from the cultural backlash that fed the full-English Brexit.

    @Sir David Edward
    Scottish ‘nationalism’ support multicultural tolerance, contemporary British nationalism, not so much. Is that not a concern for you? Social justice not your thing?

    Backlash Against Diversity?
    Identity and Cultural Politics in European Cities


    The paper discusses four ‘visions’ of the contemporary ethnically plural city under conditions of globalisation and transnationalism. These ‘visions’, which in various ways are found in academic writing, political and social policy debates, and in contemporary literature and film, might be described as models, ideal types, scenarios, trajectories, or options which envision how such cities, whose populations are ethnically, linguistically and culturally diverse, are or might be, should or should not be.

    Three of these visions (of the city as the site, respectively, of ‘assimilation’, ‘integration’, or ‘multiculturalism’, and ‘separatism’) have in varying degrees been found wanting, but contemporary criticism of ‘multiculturalism’ in Europe and North America suggests there is now a ‘backlash’ against diversity and difference and a desire to return to older ‘assimilative’ models of the city.

    Yet the reality, in a globalised and transnational world, is that the city is a site of a fourth vision, of ‘mixity’, one that many people find deeply disturbing. The paper ends by asking what might be said about the governance of the plural, ethnically heterogeneous, city under conditions of globalisation and mass transnational migration, in the light of these cultural transformations.

    Assimilation, Difference, Diversity, Europe, Governance, Immigration, Integration, Mixity, Multiculturalism, Urban Anthropology

  135. ScotsCanuck says:

    …. just … Bloody Hell !!!! … that individual “ain’t wired up right” !!

  136. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Sir David Edward
    What I trying to get at, is whether you are a rational liberal or a fan of authoritarian English/British nationalism?

    Autonomy, Vulnerability, Recognition, and Justice

  137. Clapper57 says:

    Tried posting something earlier think it must be in moderation or I pressed the wrong button….don’t press the button Lol…anyway not trying again cause me no want to be bad girl…again Lol

  138. Liz g says:

    Thepnr & Petra
    Yes & Yes ( such a good word don’t ye think? 🙂 )
    Anyone doubting Nicola’s commitment only needs to look back at the footage of 2014…
    Debate after debate,fully briefed and willing to answer questions….. No Unionist did as much and she took on all comers.
    The bone crunching exhaustion the night of the count was there for all to see.
    The Country she fought so hard for let her down, and still she didn’t walk away…

    As the sayin goes… “She’s not doing this for glory or riches but for freedom itself” she could have had all that,she could name her price and live well,her place in history because of 2014 when Scotland almost left the Union was already assured. That only leaves a belief that Scotland should be free from this accursed Union….

    And she’s been very clear if Scotland wants out just let her know it and she’ll see it done….
    Well, tis my belief we won’t let her or each other down again!

    I don’t envy her her choices but they’re hers to make and she’s earned the right…back her now and Scotland takes righteous its place in the world
    And like you say Alex we have to work harder to be the generation that righted an auld wrong….

  139. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, I have too many tabs open and that’s the wrong link for the “Autonomy and citizenship in plural societies” essay, which I can’t find now. I’ll keep looking but I’m not talking mince.

    Creating Citizens: Political Education and Liberal Democracy
    Autonomy, Justice, and the Good

  140. Liz g says:

    ScotsCanuck @ 2.17
    Wired tae the moon I’d wager 🙂

  141. CameronB Brodie says:

    Found it.

    The idea of autonomy in liberal democratic citizenship
    Autonomy and citizenship in plural societies

  142. Clapper57 says:

    Does no one have a bed to go to ?

    I’m sleep writing…so I have an excuse.

  143. CameronB Brodie says:

    What? Sleep? When there are reactionary Tories to ridicule? 🙂


    This is a pre-print version, identical to the final version except for corrections at the proofreading stage. For referencing purposes, please use the published version available at the website of the publisher.

    In his most recent voluminous work Das Recht der Freiheit (2011) Axel Honneth brings his version of the recognition paradigm to full fruition. Criticizing Kantian theories of justice, he develops a Hegelian alternative which has at its core a different conception of freedom.

    In this paper, I will scrutinize Honneths latest work to see whether he offers a promising alternative to mainstream liberal theories of justice. I will focus on two key differences with Kantian theories of justice. Substantively, Honneth criticizes the Kantian concept of ‘reflexive freedom’ and proposes instead as the core of his own theory the concept of ‘social freedom’.

    Methodologically, he proposes a method of ‘normative reconstruction’, and explicitly develops this in contrast to Kantian constructivism. I investigate the robustness of these shifts by seeing how they are actually used in Honneth’s reconstruction of the market sphere. I conclude that his method of normative reconstruction does not provide the kind of guidance Honneth thinks it does. His conception of social freedom fares slightly better but can either be reduced to the mainstream’s idea of reflexive freedom, or else faces some serious challenges.

  144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 01:24, 01:53, 02:11, 02:26, 02:42, 02:43,

    Wough, somebody now publicly considering changing over to yes gets a full-gun CBB broadside sufficient to terrify even the stoutest of jurists. Is that any way to encourage a fundamental change of heart and mind?

    (But d’ye think he’s even noticed yet? =grin=)

    Over to you for a considered response, Sir Davie…

  145. Liz g says:

    Clapped 57 @ 2.48
    Sleep Writing…. A likely story… 🙂
    Tell the truth… You have your Tablet/ Phone in bed with ye!
    Cause your feart (like me ) one night Wingers will storm Holyrood and declare The Union Dissolved…
    Do you keep a GO bag packed too….????

  146. Liz g says:

    Clapper 57
    Sorry, I really did type Clapper not Clapped auto correct sleep type’s too apparently!!!
    Apologies xxx

  147. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 3.14
    Now that ye mention it!!
    Did you find his statement credible?
    Talk about damming with faint praise.
    Westminster are leading the UK to chaos and he only “could be persuaded” to get out of it?
    I felt part two would be .. ” on balance independence would be so much worse”…
    Mibbi I’m influenced by the Margaret Curren interview where she pretty much said despite all the shit she was not convinced independence was the answer.
    It has to be asked just what would Westminster have to do to convince or persuade these people?
    Which is why I think the insinuation is Indy is just that bad may be the point?
    Wee Malta can survive and thrive but Scotland is incapable without much persuasion or convincing of what exactly?

  148. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    Nah, I doubt he’ll be paying any attention. The thing is, he’s not an ordinary dude, he’s regarded as a legal academic of some standing. As such, I hold him to higher standards than most. You don’t think I’d launch into Joe/Josephine Soap like that?

  149. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 3.58
    Joe & Josephine…. Joe & Josephine???????????
    Are you a Brit Nat????????
    EVERYONE knows it Jock & Jeannie
    I’m watching you now man…. Grrr
    🙂 XXX

  150. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g @ 03:45,

    For me the important thing is the “bottom line”. Even if such public statements are larded with qualifications and “if-but”s (not unlikely in the case of a trained lawyer! =grin=), the very fact it’s being said out loud in public is a Good Thing. It unsettles the previously certain and demoralises the hardened enemy. A token that our opponents are getting increasingly nervous and opinion is on the move.

    Maybe even somebody in this case at the “bargaining” or “depression” stage of loss, with only a step or two left to go to be mentally free. About to lose the last shred of hope for UK+Remain and just needing a little friendly encouragement to go the whole way to indy+Remain.

    I reckon there are a lot of former-no/Remainers undergoing that transition right now. With only Jo Swinson to hold them back. =laugh=

  151. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 4.07
    Aye well fingers crossed..
    I just struggle with someone supposedly so educated still seeing Brext Britain as something ye “may” only want to run from.
    But take yer point we must welcome all comers…as I will,and if genuine is indeed quite a leap!

  152. CameronB Brodie says:

    These are the standards I look to apply.


    International law has long been viewed with suspicion in Anglo-American legal thought. Compared to the paradigm of domestic law, the international legal system seems different and deficient along a number of important dimensions. This Article questions the distinctiveness of international law by pointing out that constitutional law in fact shares all of the features that are supposed to make international law so dubious.

    In mapping out these commonalities, the Article suggests that the traditional international/domestic distinction may obscure what is, for many purposes, a more important and generative conceptual divide. That divide is between “public law” regimes like international and constitutional law that constitute and govern the behavior of states and governments and “ordinary domestic law” that is administered by and through the governmental institutions of the state.

  153. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    I’m semi-posh Liz, it comes with the educational baggage. 🙂

  154. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert J Sutherland
    I take your point as well Robert, I just saw this as an opportunity to highlight how cultural prejudice can influence even those thought to be rationally minded.

  155. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 4.19
    Excuses,Excuses…. Hmmm
    Your Scottish are ye no?

    Listen to teacher…. Jock & Jeannie!! Jock & Jeannie!!
    Ha !!

    Otherwise ( and there’s a night out coming up ) you will be fined a dram for every indiscretion..
    by order…

  156. CameronB Brodie says:

    Jock & Jeannie!! Jock & Jeannie!! Jock & Jeannie!! I need to recognise my cultural roots more but I went to a semi-posh school. They always said I could do better, so now I am. 😉

    The Theory of Recognition
    and the Ethics of Immigration

    Part Two: Major Challenges to Honneth’s Theory

    Chapter Two – The Problems of Non-Reciprocal Recognition

    In this chapter, I will analyse the criticisms of recognition-based theories of social justice that have been made by Markell and Oliver. I use Honneth’s theory of recognition to demonstrate that these criticisms are not entirely valid and I argue that recognition based theories of social justice are able to address the demands that are made by both of the critics.

    I also analyse the alternatives to recognition that are proposed by Markell and Oliver, and argue that their theories of “acknowledgment” and “witnessing” presuppose certain aspects of relationships of mutual recognition and are conceptually flawed in other ways. I conclude that Markell and Oliver do highlight important concerns that should be addressed by theories of recognition. However, they do not entirely discredit recognition theories or offer a viable alternative….

  157. Effijy says:

    The Lord Ashcroft Poll this morning shows at 52%
    Vote for Scottish Independence when the don’t knows
    Are taken out.


    I’m sure all they could do to minimise the result they don’t want
    Would have been done.

    That margin will be greater!

    Where is the No appetite shite now Ruth?

  158. Dorothy Devine says:

    Effigy , I have just enjoyed my 73rd birthday , the best present I could wish for on my 74th would be sipping a wee glass of something in an independent Scotland – with a wee bit of sunshine to go with it!

    I saw the coverage of the Oafs of Rangers , surely some charges must be made – something I would expect by any honest club not to mention banning of the participants from ALL matches.

    As for the Herald , I expect nothing of worth to emanate from it anyway.

  159. Sinky says:

    Bbc Radio Scotland news headlines ignore latest opinion poll showing 52 per cent support independence thus undermining the huge coverage they give to opposition politicians who say no appetite for indyref2

  160. Effijy says:

    FFS BBC TV news this morning obviously aware of the Ashcroft Poll
    That they have black listed.

    1st attack – Tories want enquiry as new super hospital may need to be torn down.
    It’s a drain situation and it could be even worse than to pigeon problem. lol

    Next- more Scottish business going into insolvency.
    impression is it’s only up here definitely nothing to do with Tory Brexit.

    Next- Scottish Rural crime up 60%?

    Shouldn’t we not have an enquiry into the Red Tory PFI,
    Shouldn’t we have an enquiry into the massive over run cost
    Of London Crossrail and the HS2 estimate costs that are a runaway train in itself?

    Should we have an inquiry into why Every English NHS Trust is missing it’s targets?

    Would Scots accept and deal with increasing rural crime or swap it for knife crime slaughter plaguing London’s streets.

    I turned the BBC propaganda off and applied for bunker in a war torn Syrian city
    As things appear much better there and they get to use the £Pound.

  161. Breeks says:

    Lord Ashcroft polls… 8% of the SNP don’t want a referendum or Independence?

    Why do I find that difficult to believe?

    I think the way the SNP is going about it is profoundly alarming, but I still doubt 8% are actually against the idea.

    “I agree with the SNP on everything else, just not Independence?”… Nope, never heard it once. Certainly not one voice in 12.

    Furthermore, while it’s a sweeping generalisation I know, if you think like a Yesser, you wouldn’t put YES at risk in order to preserve the regressive Union. I think you would even struggle to be a “don’t know”.

  162. Tony Hay says:

    If Ashcroft is saying support for YES is at 52%,you can bet your bottom dollar it north of 55%…..

  163. stu mac says:

    Here’s something to show the folk that claim England respects us:

    Thing I would add is don’t expect those Brexiteers who claim they’d rather lose the Union than Brexit really mean they’d let Scotland go. What they’d accept is Scotland and NI absorbed as minor regions of England. You’ve already seen the first moves for this at the Scotland Office.

  164. Robert Kerr says:


    Do not forget that the fragrant Johann Lamont belittled Nicola for not understanding because she wasn’t a mother.

    Later we found out that Nicola had had a miscarriage.

    Nicola will be the midwife for a rebirth of Scotland,

    Have no doubt. That is Personal with her!

    i for one shall wet that Bairn’s head with the finest Islay malt and for the sake of auld friends also with the finest French claret.

  165. Gus says:

    Do they just spend all day trying to figure out how not to possibly offend absolutely anyone and everyone?

  166. Colin Alexander says:

    Facts: The SNP are campaigning to prevent the UK leaving the EU. The SNP are especially opposed to No Deal “Hard Brexit”.



    Scenario 1:

    NO Brexit at all: If the UK Remains in the EU, independence becomes less likely for the following reasons:

    1. 2016 SNP madate for Indyref gone. Even if indyref held: It would be a re-run of 2014: A vote for independence would be a vote for Scotland leaving the UK AND EU.

    2. UK Govt would again campaign on a hard border between Scotland and England. UK Govt would threaten to veto indy-Scotland’s application to re-join the EU. For as long as Scotland out of the EU, she would face tariffs when trading with UK / EU.

    3. Yes win would be less likely, so it becomes very unlikely the SNP would even call indyref2.

    Scenario 2: An EU deal is made “Soft Brexit” goes ahead on 31 October 2019. eg. UK remains aligned with EU Law:

    1. SNP have the clear mandate: Scotland dragged out the EU.

    2. UK is out of the EU. So Scotland is out of the EU. So a YES vote would not lose us EU membership.

    3. Independent UK cannot threaten a veto on independent Scotland applying to re-join the EU, as UK is not EU member.

    4. UK, so Scotland too, would be closely aligned with EU law, so EU membership would be more straightforward from regulatory aspect.

    5. No need, ( unlawful??) for a border between Scotland and England if EU deal includes freedom of movement.


    Scenario 3:


    1. UK has already blocked Continuity Bill and reserved laws to Westminster to enable Westminster to change Scotland’s laws away from EU law alignment.

    2. UK can then change Scots Law to make Scotland incompatible with EU law. This would force a period of EU re-alignment even if Scotland wanted to join the EU ASAP.

    3. BJ UK Govt oppose Soft Brexit, because if the UK remained compliant with EU law: this would make Scotland’s EU re-entry much easier (as Scotland would be EU law aligned) and England / Scotland trade etc would be regulated by the EU Brexit deal.

    4. This is one of the reasons why the SNP so vehemently oppose No Deal Brexit, the other reason being economic damage.


    So, UK Govt would rather have No Deal Brexit than an EU-deal Brexit that includes freedom of movement.

    Scotland would have to move fast to declare sovereignty to prevent UK making Scotland’s law incompatible with EU. If Scotland declares Holyrood sovereign over our laws ASAP, UK Parliament cannot change Scotland’s laws. This would take boldness and bravery following a YES win. The SNP under Nicola have never done bold, Nicola being ultra cautious.

    So, The SNP are right to oppose Hard Brexit: due to UK economic damage, due to absolute WM power over Scotland to make Scotland incompatible with the EU.

    If UK stays in the EU, indyref won’t be held. It will be business as usual and Scotland remains UK colony.

  167. Joe says:

    Socialism = totalitarian ambitions with a facade of empathy, compassion and tolerance.

    Its bullshit. Dont buy it. Dont believe me – then look into the history of the 20th century and fucking educate yourself. Or simply talk to anyone from a socialist country or former socialist country.

    I wont watch my country become free from the Union just to watch it turn into a left wing, authoritarian shit hole. For any reason.

  168. Truth says:

    Just look at him with his oppressive beard.

  169. jeff says:

    Name a socialist country please? There are none and never have been any.

  170. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi jeff.

    Perchance you could argue with this list?

  171. Joe says:

    Briandoonthetoon and jeff:

    Yes, go on. Just make anything you want up.

    My wife, from a former socialist country,finds clueless fantasists like you 2 amusing. I think you are dangerously stupid however

  172. Joe says:

    As for the main article ‘reverend’ who describes democratic politics as war?

    Oh yes I know – the insane and unhinged (and dishonest) left who can then justify themselves and their behaviour with it.

  173. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Joe.

    What did I “make up”?

  174. CameronB Brodie says:

    “….My wife, from a former socialist country….”

    Suggest to me that Joe is American, who tend to conflate socialism with Stalinist communism.

    Are you working for the Breitbart News Network, or is that a personal question? 😉

  175. Hi everyone. On the subject of rules and policies that no one wants, we’ve redrafted the Trans Inclusion policy for Glasgow Life so that it doesn’t say that staff have to force cross-dressers and drag queens on unsuspecting women as they undress and shower.
    Glasgow Life have refused to meet with us or engage with us so please please please can anyone on FB or Twitter circulate our Blog. You can all see it is fair, respects decency, privacy and safety.
    Thanks everyone

Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

↑ Top