The White Flag Gang
It’s remarkable how openly a certain faction of the SNP is now declaring surrender.
And it’s becoming increasingly clear that the events of the next few days and weeks will not just determine the future of the independence movement, but whether in any meaningful, practical sense it continues to exist at all.
Smith, of course, actually threw in the towel in 2015.
So his wretched complete formal capitulation in The National today, where he offers the UK government a permanent veto on Scottish self-determination and suggests no alternative plan other than to keep relying on the deep morality of our case and Westminster’s sense of British fair play and decency (because that’s worked so well for the last eight years) should be no shock to anyone.
But the grouping in the party he represents – let’s be as charitable as possible and call them “ultra-gradualists” – seems to have decided that now is the moment to go public with their attempt to turn the SNP’s commitment to independence for Scotland into some sort of vague, abstract aspiration for an undefined time far into the future.
Stewart McDonald led the way by kicking the can down the road for 27 years.
But even that was a bit too hasty for Ben Macpherson, who called for the SNP’s approach to become more “evolutionary” (evolution of course being a famously non-pacy process).
(Macpherson today announced that he wouldn’t be running for the leadership, causing great surprise to people who hadn’t even been aware that he existed.)
Meanwhile the candidate supported by far and away the highest number of SNP MPs and MSPs, Humza Yousaf, doesn’t even want to go as fast as that. If elected he wants to cancel the party’s “special democracy conference” entirely and instead have a “conversation” about how to “make progress”.
Readers may recall the spectacular previous success of such endeavours, such as this one from 2016 which set out to urgently respond to the Brexit vote.
And let’s all not forget how much the nation was gripped by the thrilling events of the Citizens’ Assembly back in 2019-22.
So let’s be clear about what’s at stake. Ash Regan has made a powerful statement about holding an immediate all-party convention and making it a permanent feature of SNP policy that 50%+1 of votes in ANY general election will be treated as an immediate mandate for independence.
Kate Forbes came out with an extremely vague stream of politician waffle about “reaching out” and “building bridges” on the subject of future independence policy, though she did at least concede that the issue “needs to be at the heart of the next election” in some undefined way (while retreating from an explicit commitment to a de-facto referendum).
Humza Yousaf, however, wants to relegate the whole thing to a “conversation”. We’re not exactly sure what that conversation would be about – most people in Scotland already know whether they want independence/a referendum or not – or what practical outcome it would or could produce.
(“Dear UK government, we’ve had a conversation with some people and now we REALLY NO KIDDING want a Section 30 order, so how about it, pretty pretty please?”)
We’re not in the SNP, but we’re reasonably sure that anyone who is should already be committed to Scottish independence and to achieving it as a matter of unequivocal priority. If they’re not, and if they don’t already have a strategy for that, perhaps they’re not the person who should be leading the party in its most crucial hour.
This just dilutes the Independence cause even more.
The unionists must be running scared that Ash Regan comes out tops.
Let’s hope she does or the cause is as you point out gone for a long time.
Humza on tour? Nice.
Shades of Jim Murphy’s calamitous Irn Bru Crate marathon.
Who fancies a bet that he’ll notch up more GTFs than Murphy did, in a shorter time too?
I’m still a SNP member. I want independence as a priority so will probably vote for Ash. What I’m worried about is the extent of the gradualism in the SNP. All the members who left would have wanted independence as a priority. I doubt any gradualists have left. You’re right, this is a defining vote for the independence movement. If the gradualists win then the games a bogey for many years.
Some gradualist (real ones, not unionists) SNP voters I know, say that if we don’t start campaigning, with a workable plan to achieve Indy this year, then they think it’s over. Even they (and they’re fairly placid), have had their fill of carrots.
I agree with them.
Perhaps the only achievable guaranteed outcome of this leadership race is it will force the devolutionists within the SNP to pin their colours to the mast.
Be nice if the wokies started their own party instead of leaching off the Independence vote, equally nice (and now essential for Indy) if the ‘devolution is far enough for me types’ would start admitting as much and form their own party also instead of spiking the Indy movement.
Hope the Perthshire mob are reading John Swinneys quote above and the penny finally dropping. Won’t hold my breath.
Honestly, this isn’t “gradualism” so much as “slamming the gears into reverse”.
Anyone who reads what Yousaf, Smith, MacDonald and MacPherson are saying and thinks “all sounds good to me!” isn’t an independence supporter. Further, they (whether they realise it or not) are accepting the beginning of the slow death of the SNP as “the national party”.
If they want to be some narrow-focused, allegedly “left of centre, progressive” party which does not meaningfully pursue independence, then good for them. But they can stop having a go at those of us who want a party that WILL pursue and cease jealously trying to claim the whole “Yes” vote as their own.
A proper splintering must be coming if this grouping get its way and it is in any case long past time we all stopped pretending that the SNP was a “broad church” when it’s clearly decided to be very f*ckin picky about who it will allow into its actually very exclusive and not very inclusive club.
People need representation and the fact is these folk are not actually willing to offer that to independence supporters, some of whom need to wise up to that fact, and quickly.
Theyre just plucking dates out of the air, now.
I despise the current SNP
McDonald and Smith have never been this brazen before. Are their case handlers in Foggy Bottom / Langley emboldened or concerned?
A third option? The present time of turmoil is an opportunity to manipulate the SNP into tearing up the first article of its constitution and formally become the party of devolution.
This would be a miscalculation. Entirely removing the pretence that the SNP stands for independence would leave the field open to ALBA or others.
Cut down an auld diseased tree and a vigorous new sapling will take advantage of the gap created in the canopy.
David – don’t just vote for Ash nominate her and get others to do so.
Treachery:
“Behaviour that deceives or is not loyal to someone who trusts you.”
“Things that are done to deceive someone who trusts you.”
“A play about treachery and betrayal.”
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/treachery
Evolutionary Cul-de-Sac ?
Party of Independence for Scotland
Devolution Party
Dismissed Party
Deviant Party
Defeatist Party
Dissolution Party
Dead Party
I can’t see what Humza Yousless brings to the table – any table – except a hairy chest and a collection of tartan ties. Mind, some of the ties are just a check rather than a proper tartan.
They have given up. Surely even the most fervent SNP worshipper realises this. If they don’t then hell mend them.
It’s a badge of honour in Red Pill Indy to pretend to push for indy in the next few years, much as the West professes it’s full support for Ukraine (aye, right). We are in no way ready to campaign for Indy when the proposal we have to put before the public is split between the gender-a-day “ultra gradualists” and the red pill, CND/ Free Palestine ultra activists.
2050? We’ll be bloody lucky.
Gas prices down. 75% says Flynn. Energy bills to go up £500 = £15 Billion more for Westminster.
Energy rich Scotland. We’re being raided, and rinsed for every penny.
The SNP do nothing. They are ruining our lives.
My goodness Labour Mark II. Only it took labour 50 yrs from establishing NHS to abandoning Clause IV.
SNP make similar political journey in what 8/9(since Alex won outright majority in Holyrood) . It’s of course worse as Clause IV was never more than a totem policy.
Independence is (we thought) SNP’s sole raisin d’etre. wrong! it’s clearly MP’s remuneration accumulation!!!
Seemingly encouraged to candour by the Tory’s no longer attempting to conceal their kleptocratic ways. “I’m Sparticus!”
If ever there was a time for SNP members to be on the alert and rise above all the distractions of past months/years, it’s got to be now.
And if any last-minute hopefuls crawl out of the woodwork, you can be sure the word ‘independence’ will be heard loud and clear. Let’s not be fooled again.
“Saying it and doing it are two different things” (auld Scots wisdom)
Surely it should be ‘The Red, White, and Blue Flag Gang’?
Alyn Smith’s comments seem quite reasonable to me and don’t bear the weight of Stu’s imaginative deconstruction of them.
Regan is our only hope. I have no idea what the voting SNP membership will do. Scary.
It appear pretty simple to me, if Ash Regan wins the contest for next SNP leader, then there’s a chance for a clear out and independence using the SNP as part of the indy vehicle.
If however Ash Regan loses the race for the leadership of the SNP, I’d say the SNP are finished as indy party and cannot be trusted, if that scenario unfolds then all our energies must go into the Alba party, many folk will just vote Alba and not SNP anyway, after what has transpired on the HCB and GRRB, so I fully expect Alba to wins seats at the next GE and Holyrood elections anyway, but having Regan at the head of the SNP, will help our cause.
Sturgeon would never work with Alba, but Regan will so we need Regan to win.
dearie dearieme ‘The Brussells Reich’ LOL
I’m thinking a productive discussion to have right now, is what to do in a post SNP political landscape. Because that’s what needs to happen.
They obviously do not think or know how they can do it.
Move aside and let someone at least try.
If the SNP fail,then Alba will rise. It may take some time but it will happen. We are not yet out of options.
You have to admire the British Establishmnent.
The SNP now want to be a party of government not an Independence movement. I thought this would happen after Indy, the SNP splitting into left, right and centre parties.
However, a certain faction following on from the previous leader want to make this all about GRR and them. Independence is expendable in the great fight!
They have tried to make this the hill to die on. The troops have been forced to march to the top, with the fangled carrot. Now the carrot is being withdrawn but you have still to keep owing on.
In what universe does gradualism achieve Independence?
( I know I know!)
“We must win over hearts and minds of the undecided by showing we can govern wisely” is the classic claim. The problem with that its, you arent Governing…youre playing House with Westminster standing over you at all times. Its a sham and proves nothing. Which is exactly why the dial hasn’t moved in 8 years.
Independence will not be granted or handed over with a smile. It needs to be taken. It will never be earned with 30 years of glacial creep.
It must be achieved with action and radical approaches to undermining Westminster and forcing the issue for the benefit of all Scotland. It will not be achieved by protecting the golden pension of some band-jumping MPs and lifelong Holyrood dwellers.
I feared that the Tories would dissolve Holyrood to remove the annoying Scots…seem they wont have too, there are plenty of Scots willing to toe the line. Plus ca change!
At last common sense is emerging, independence won’t come on the back of 50%+1 in any vote it needs to be on the back of the settled will of the people.
Ash Regan’s plan ends the same way the last 8 years have – with Westminster saying no, she has no credible strategy for what happens next.
I see Beth (love of Alex Cole Hamilton’s life) is claiming on twitter that Ash Regan is avoiding interviews and BBC wanks / journalists are now resorting to tweeting her to get one as she is not responding to their emails etc.
(I had ran a search to see if I could see any recent interviews with Ash and bizarrely Beth’s twitter post was one of the top results…)
Regan has been noticeably quiet. Could be a canny move… There really is very little out there to watch on Regan to get a feel for how she would be as leader. I think all I have seen is the resignation and that was likely a clip.
That said Regan seems to be more significantly focused than Forbes… just need to see a bit more of her.
@dmcV,
If you cannot see the opportunities that came after those comments from Smyth in 2015 and rendered them obsolete, then nobody can help you.
Although they were not quite asking the same question, the two referendums in Quebec were only fifteen years apart. Asking supporters of Scottish independence to wait any longer than fifteen years is risking its complete destruction.
Many SNP representatives describe in their bios how they were drawn into politics by the 2014 referendum, which makes you think, ‘what’s changed? What’s happened to you? Why have you suddenly become a gradualist?’.
2014 was the very opposite of gradualism. Independence was right there, looming up right in front of our eyes, and every single current MSP, MP and local councillor must have voted ‘Yes’. Every single one with no exceptions. They voted Yes with the prospect that all of the problems they now cite for waiting were either going to be very difficult then or were actually just foreseeable practical problems requiring a level of thought, energy, and application that many of these gradualists are NOT willing to do any longer.
So in terms of what these people were envisaging a successful independent vote would bring, this was an either-or question back in 2014. These ultra-gradualists must have been on one side or the other unless if and only if…some of them did not actually vote for independence. Or they voted for it but didn’t believe in it at all which in terms of practical politics is the same thing as voting against it.
So why the lack of urgency from so many 2014 Yes voters who now have a power in frontline politics they could never have dreamed of before 2014? Why is there a lack of urgency when a lot of Scots are imminently facing a very bleak future? Why were you changing your mind when tens of thousands of Scots were hitting the streets marching for OUR independence?
@David Hannah re. “Energy rich Scotland. We’re being raided”
UK Parliament: House of Commons: Scottish Affairs Committee: Renewable Energy in Scotland:
“…Renewable energy… Scotland has an abundance of these renewable energy resources; in 2020, 97.4% of electricity consumption in Scotland was from renewable energy sources…”:
https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/7319/documents/76606/default/
Secession. What is it about that word that it never crosses the lips of an SNP politician?
Secession. The only route to independence.
Secession. Sudden, quick, irreversible.
Secession. Soon.
@DMcV
In what world do you see Westminster approving a s30 request?
“Forever is not the Time” is the new “Now”.
That is the only scenario in which Alyn sees victory.
Therefore, its never going to be achieved.
Therefore Alyn is worthy of scorn if he cant look towards a
strategy that may actually achieve something over his forlorn declaration of a roadmap which isnt even making it out the garage.
Sorry, Scott Wilson, if a majority votes for it, the politicians should be trying to get that majority what it wants.
Only a tyrant trying to get their own way would argue otherwise.
Another comment lost, dammit! @Rev, get your house in order.
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Someone tell me how you are going to persuade the UK Gov to allow an Indy ref
Someone tell me how you are going to persuade the UK Gov to allow an Indy ref
How are you going to persuade the UK gov to allow an Indy Ref when right now most people are concerned about the cost of living
Congratulations Alyn Smith.
Your membership to the newest Unionist Party has been accepted.
I wonder what job the Tories will find for you after you are booted out at the next election.
How about forming PAIN.
Party Against Independence & Nationalism.
What a useless clown.
Sorry if the following doesn’t fit Wings guidelines but, as ever, Monty Python provides the perfect analogy of this farce:
REG: You’re right. We could sit around here all day talking, passing resolutions, making clever speeches. It’s not going to shift one Roman soldier!
FRANCIS: So, let’s just stop gabbing on about it. It’s completely pointless and it’s getting us nowhere!
COMMANDOS: Right!
LORETTA: I agree. This is a complete waste of time.
bam
JUDITH: They’ve arrested Brian!
REG: What?
COMMANDOS: What?
JUDITH: They’ve dragged him off! They’re going to crucify him!
REG: Right! This calls for immediate discussion!
I agree with Republiofscotland. If Humza Yousaf wins the leadership ( assuming that it’s a fair contest ?) then we must cut our losses and give everything we have to ALBA. My wife and I intend to print our own leaflets, if ALBA don’t supply us with any, and put them through letterboxes ourselves. ???????
OT but they have got me obsessed – can someone ask Yousef if transwomen should sit with the men or the women in the mosque (as they are separated, the men having the nicest, biggest room)?
Just a day on from making the comment on the similarities with the Corbyn campaign and leadership, we see even more evidence.
With Regan’s clear statement on Independence, we now see it being attacked from within the SNP. The ludicrous situation is that SNP politicians will argue about the legitimacy of our cause.
Remember, despite. huge popularity in the public for Corbyn, he was hamstrung and ultimately defeated by his own party. The PLP (Parliamentary Labour Party) threw everything, including the kitchen sink at him.
Even if Ash Regan were to be successful, it would be doubtful that she could effectively lead
The entire SNP mechanism needs a thorough clean out.
What makes me laugh about utterly craven , self-serving buffoons like Smith is ( among other things ) their idiot complacency that these years of stasis and the continuation of same indefinitely will not impact on the support for Independence and that the Brit State will not use that time to bolt every possible escape route as well as continuing to sow division at every opportunity and in every way possible .
Granted , it doesn’t need to do much when the so-called * Party of Independence * has already conceded they’ll do nothing without it’s imprimatur . Nonetheless , they won’t have been and will not be as uselessly idle as the SNP have and will continue to be in this regard . We can be certain of that .
Ash Regan is the last chance for the SNP . If , as is almost certain , Yousaf * wins * , it is – definitively – over .
Never mind Smith’s ” leave a light on ” pish ( when he , as much as any other , pathetically surrendered to being taken out of the E.U ) .
It will be a case of ” last one out of the SNP , turn the lights out “
Smith: “…would lead to rancour among our own base.”
What? More than the current shit-storm of bitterness, back stabbing, bitching and tantrum throwing?
If you run it through a ‘politician to English’ translator it comes out as “…would lead to a reduction of our EXTREMELY healthy pension pot and bye-bye expenses from a really cushy number for people who would struggle to find employment in the real world.”
Have a look at the National Broadcaster for Scotland’s Balanced and informative questioning
https://twitter.com/msm_monitor/status/1628310759036911616?t=06bR-PnTg10n5HaPt5txzQ&s=08
As a complete and utter nobody, let me echo Mhairi the Hunter’s call for the section 35 challenge to go ahead if…and only if…the successful candidate for FM promises to publish the Scottish Govt’s legal advice should the challenge fail and if that legal advice states that the challenge had no chance of success, then I would expect the new FM to resign with immediate effect. On that basis, m’lud, as a complete nothing-person, I will offer public support for what we must now call the ‘Mhairi the Hunter’ option.
This 50%+1 proposal is awesome for the way in… but what if the reverse is true at any subsequent election in Scotland, and a party puts in their manifesto that a 50%+1 majority for reversing independence is a mandate… and on and on and on it goes.
The 50%+1 proposal is a surefire way to tear the country apart.
There is no point in having a referendum if it would be lost and the truth is a referendum at any point since sept 2014 would have been lost. People have deluded themselves into thinking rigged polls by Angus Robertson are actually worth something. The NewSNP have been rigging polls to try and dictate public opinion rather than using polls to reflect public opinion.
In 2014 Salmond had a plan for IScotland, Sturgeon and her cabal never had a plan and the collection of halfwits that make up the NewSNP are certainly not capable of coming up with one.
As for Ash Regan’s plan, 50% +1 in an election is a way to start a civil war and as stated elsewhere if any NewSNP politician standing in that election mentioned even one other policy and the manifesto was any longer than a single sentence the result would be meaningless. It’s a non starter and it’s just her trying to appeal to the radicals in the NewSNP. This is of course before we note that Ash gives off very strong champagne socialist vibes, wants to close private schools yet sends her kids to a private school. I tend to think if she wins there will be open rebellion in the NewSNP over gender insanity and the party might split.
I think the truth is the NewSNP in its current form is done. It’s out of ideas and full of idiots. The fact that useless is the chosen successor shows how bad things are and the relative lack of contenders shows that NewSNP MSP’s know the party is done as well. No money wants to take on the poisoned chalice. The party needs torn down to its foundations, all the dead wood cast aside, all the trans radical activists expelled and rebuilt. A time in opposition would also do it good. I mean ffs we had NewSNP activist accusing Kate Forbes of transphobia for misgendering a rapist! How can you salvage a party staffed with people like that!
We seem to have a cohort of high heid yins within the SNP and Government who would like Independence for Scotland in the same way Miss World Contestants would like World Peace.
Be lovely to have, a good thing to speachify about, but not something you actually do anything to achieve – not when there’s fancy dresses and lippie to put on.
The membership now need to clarify at every level, what’s the actionable plan to achieve Indy, and the timescale to implement same.
All else is waffle and carrots.
The Yes vote was just 5% away from independence in 2014, and yet, as if that never happened, Ben McPherson says an “evolutionary” approach is the best strategy.
The people won’t clamour for independence if they are not given the right signals to do so by leading figures in the independence movement.
The psychology used by these Sturgeonites regarding independence is all wrong. And they know it is. They adopt the glacial approach because they see no reason to push for indy as long as they’re drawing nice Holyrood and Westminster salaries.
I am sensing panic at the heart of the (‘woke’) SNP who know that the Greens will not back them on independence, and probably never would have, GRRB or no GRRB. Alyn Smith, McDonald and others are not interested in independence. They joined the party to get into power and make a good living for themselves, and some of them, to push through policies that very few actually want. From early 2015, the GRRB was hottering away, so, please, no one suggest that independence was ever a priority for this lot. My own feeling is that the SNP must either reform and get back to what it was or it will die, as the Irish Independence Party did. You can fool some of the people… Thing is, the ‘trans’ lobby will not lie down, so this is not finished. It will end up in a fight for the soul of the party, and, if the ‘wokerati’ win, the SNP is dead in the water, and ALBA will rise as the new independence movement’s party of choice, just as Sinn Fein did in Ireland. It’s up to the members now: 00.1% and no independence or 51% and independence.
I also note that Craig Murray has been giving his tuppence worth on what’s happening.
I’d be more likely to give anything he says credibility if he would admit that people like him are the reason we are in the mess we are now in.
When Sturgeon was trying to have Craig jailed and he was fully aware of how corrupt she was he still went out and campaigned and voted for the NewSNP. Just what the hell did he think was going to happen? Did he think that voting for Nicola Sturgeon would suddenly change her into a completely different person?
The NewSNP cult of sturgeon have a lot to answer for.
It’s ‘Ash’ Wednesday.
Doug says:
22 February, 2023 at 12:26 pm
‘Regan is our only hope. I have no idea what the voting SNP membership will do. Scary.’
It’s not the people who vote that count, it’s the people who count the votes.
In my comment above, I put in a smiley face which came up as a question mark.The row of question marks at the end I had entered as a saltire.
John Swinney has come out as Christian to smear Kate Forbes for wrong think. Swinney isn’t for tolerating the Wee free. He told good morning Scotland:
“I’m a man of deep Christian faith but I do not hold the same views as Kate has set out in the course of the last couple of days.
“Kate is perfectly entitled to express her views, but party members are equally entitled to decide if someone who holds those views would be an appropriate individual to be SNP leader and first minister.”
Just as Scotland, are perfectly entitled to tell our cloth eared politicians we want Independence, we don’t want male rapists in female jails, or your creepy schools sex survey. Let alone gender self ID, 70% against.
Gender ideology is not our faith. Stop imposing it on us. You’re cancelled Swinney.
Are some of you saying that Scotland being declared an English Colony with powers only Westminster permit a loosing hand.
Show how Scotland subsidised England for decades show their own McCrone report few know about, ask if they want to continue with the Westminster governments they never voted for and a PM who called us Verminous with 10 years of austerity swindled Covid and now several years of recession.
Would our citizens like to remain dependent on food and heat banks and forever below inflation wage rises and 10 mortgage rate increases in a year.
We can see Russian satellite states who became independent grow their economy 4 fold when put in charge of their own economy.
They have nothing like the assets of Scotland but they sit as equal partners in the EU.
If you can’t sell this proposition to be viable just go crawl under a rock.
Regan is the only candidate who I think actually really cares about independence. Forbes does to an extent but she’s being so monstered by people that her campaign is over, while Yousaf hasn’t shown the slightest push towards indy in his time as an MSP. It’s simply just a way for him to gain power along with the other seat warmers the SNP have as elected officials.
What the Forbes situation shows though to people not just Christian, but Muslim, Jewish or any variant of old Abrahamic religions that they’re not welcome in a supposedly ‘progressive’ Scotland. Only those worshipping neo-religions belong otherwise you’re a heathen and a bigot. There’s a lot of people who say they’re very ‘woke’ and progressive showing the sort of religious intolerance you’d see at an Old Firm game.
I’m very much an atheist however if Scotland is to be a truly progressive independent country it needs to lose these hypocritical, intolerant hypocrites that aren’t just in power, but dominate our society ASAP.
So with all the hate Kate Forbes is getting, do we now know the real reason Ian Blackford got the boot? isn’t he from the same church?
Honesty from a politician whatever next?
DEVOLUTION, EVOLUTION, IRRESOLUTION, FRUSTRATION…..REVOLUTION
Why do the SNP think we voted for them? That is the bottom line. I know why I did.
Perhaps they have deluded themselves that it was for other reasons, but everybody I know wanted Indy.
Everything was supposed to be for a referendum this year regardless of type. That of course was peoples expectation management to keep the mugs on board. It is failing.
This really is make or break time. There is no more road to travel or deviate from, only crash barriers.
Nationalists are seen as the enemy of both communists and globalists. Salami politics are the method of taking over a political organisation from within via purges and denouncements.
O/T.
Rapist Adam Graham aka (Isla Bryson) has been placed back into a women’s prison a decision Medhurst of the SPS says was not influenced by any Scottish minister but taken by the SPS bigwigs themselves.
Medhurst went on about the rapists rights, but what about the rights of the female prisoners.
Beauvais.
You are quite right. We came very close to achieving independence in 2014. Even with all their lies and cheating, eg telling old folk that they would lose their pension if Scotland became independent. In fact, 52.7% of indigenous Scots still voted for freedom.
I know that that’s a discussion for another day, but the fact is we almost achieved our goal. Those people who voted Yes haven’t gone away, and I believe that the numbers have risen since then, despite Sturgeon and her cronies efforts. Westminster have made sure of that.with their fascist policies. The point is, no one can argue that these people who lead the SNP today want independence. That makes it easier to make a fresh start.
Graeme George says:
22 February, 2023 at 1:43 pm
“It’s not the people who vote that count, it’s the people who count the votes.”
Peter Murrell?
Nuff said.
DAVID HANNAH.
Having been born in a Muslim country of Christian minority heritage Mr Swinney ought to be very careful where he takes that particular argument.
I despair! Why is the ruling political class so crass.
I looks as if the SNP was infiltrated by crypto-unionists, or leaders have become crypto-unionists.
Amazing how things changed after 2014! We were all desperate to push Independence over the line. Then it became a business opportunity for a bunch of chancers.
Why do people vote for someone who obviously doesn’t want Independence?
Just saw that Stewart McDonald clip (Joanna Cherry listening quietly just below him).
This ‘big thinking’ guy’s ‘magic sauce’ solution around his Scotland 2050 idea is mundane and unimaginative (to give his nonsense the highest praise possible). This magic sauce is actually rather ordinary stuff. It was part of the pre-Sturgeon SNP’s appeal: competent govt (Salmond 2007-2014: check) and a vision of fairness for the future (Salmond 2014 referendum: check).
Add in a lot of hand gestures, constant and unwavering self-promotion and choice phrases such as ’empower a team’, ‘drive that case forward’, ‘move the dial’, and there you have your SNP ‘big thinking’ non-entity.
I’m starting to think maybe his emails might have very little in them because he’s just a puffed up buffoon, getting fat on his own self-importance. I felt gradually more and more sorry for poor Joanna Cherry, having to sit there and listen to his cretinous meanderings, thinking all the while, ‘what an idiot’ but too polite ever to say so.
Puir auld Scotland. Or maybe not. Maybe Adam Smith, David Hume, Duguld Stewart, Walter Scott, Adam Ferguson, Lord Kames, William Robertson, Mary Somerville, maybe even James Clerk Maxwell would have all beaten a trail to Tenerife to do important public service in their youth.
Does no one else find it worrying that Humza Yousefs anti white speech is completely ignored by the MSM whilst Forbes is hung out to dry for her views? Has anti white prejudice gone mainstream? That’s a rhetorical question because as a daily reader of the Gruaniad and Herald I know that it has.
If you want independence then it won’t be WM that stops you but No voters. These are the people you need to convince and I would say that you could do that by showing good governance – a bit like a certain Mr Salmond used to do.
Get the polls up to 60%+ and WM will grant a referendum and then its job done.
Govern like madmen and why would anyone but madmen vote for you?
I think these MPs should be applauded and saluted. Without their diligent work, how would we ever have discovered that there is chink in Westminster’s “once in a generation” argument? All we have to do is wait until at least one generation has passed.
Bloody geniuses.
PhilM @ 2:24pm:
Indeed and I think MacDonald should be asked whether he thinks we haven’t had “competent government” recently, or what?
If he does, why hasn’t that worked to drive support up if it’s all that’s needed from here?
If he doesn’t, why does he think we should support those who have been incompetent on an ongoing basis?
It’s Catch-22 stuff and these folk could be done up like a kipper by any half-decent, motivated, interviewer.
https://caltonjock.com/
@Graeme George 1:43pm
Yep. Even scarier.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/22/criticism-of-kate-forbes-is-about-her-suitability-to-lead-says-senior-snp-figure
This is worth a read. I need to read again but ‘skinny Swinney’ is passing comment that is of doubtful coherence.
And here : from above “Yousaf is believed to have the backing of several high-profile SNP
heavyweights including John Swinney and lan Blackford”
Skinny Swinney a heavyweight? Not if one reads the Graun article, where he is well out of his depth.
]And as for Blackford-heavyweight?- they are surely referring to his ample paunch and not any incisive analysis, or the ‘heavy blows’ that he directed at Johnson (who ‘recoiled’ with undisguised contempt for Blackford).
(or maybe that is what passes for ‘Heavyweight’ for the Daily Record- that well known intellectual tour de force competing with the Sun for the high end readership of the playgrounds and public lavatories of Scotland.
https://twitter.com/Gillian_Philip/status/1628338099695517697?s=20
What did you expect any SNP member to say in 2015?
Honestly, I hate these post-lost analyses. We got well and truly gubbed in 2014. There was no way anyone could have proposed a second indyref after that – not even Alex Salmond, who rather quickly exited the stage leaving others to pick up the pieces.
So as much as I agree Smith has become unlikable, and probably lost the plot, I can’t blame him for saying in 2015 what we all thought – we lost, and that was it for the time being.
How can we ensure transparency in this contest for leader of the SNP, it looks like we can’t.
“I’m told that Regan has asked for information on the transparency of the process & been denied, likewise Forbes.
I’m also told the process is run by a company who will apparently follow orders from Murrell with no other oversight. 2/2”
https://twitter.com/R_MacGhilleAnd/status/1628157462745432065?cxt=HHwWgoC-1cClsJgtAAAA
Humza dodged the gay marriage legislation….who is being dishonest?
https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23336538.yousaf-facing-questions-missed-gay-marriage-vote/
Antoine Bisset.
Succession?
For Scotland?
How can the Scottish parliament succeed from a treaty of parliamentary union if it can not be found as a active parliament in the treaty of union since 1707?
How can the non existent Scottish parliament that Sine Die’d its parliament in 1707 be in treaty of parliamentary union?
These are intelligent questions,
And certainly inclusive of the SNP party position in Scotland, along with every implanted political party who just adds the ‘tag’ ” Scotland” to the party, but is still registered in England.
Why Would the SNP or any other political party BE negotiating Succession for Scotland?
From What?
Not being found in the treaty of the union at all as a Scottish existing parliament?
Succession for Scotland is a silly statement, without pointing out that the Scottish parliament in 1707 not only voluntary closed it doors as a parliament in Scotland,
But the old English parliament also ratified that the Scottish parliament no longer existed
If it was subsumed as some like to suggest, then it has the same result, there is no Active Scottish parliament member in the treaty of union since 1707,
When you join all this together, the totality of information from Scotland’s and Englands records finds no 1707 Scottish parliament in the parliamentary union at all.
The statement you made should not be about “Scotlands Succession from Westminster, and be corrected to,
What financial “reparations” Scotland would receive for Westminster falsely implying and applying a “national treaty” to Scotlands 1707 parliament that had Sine Die’d its own parliament in Scotland in 1707.
And that the commissioners agreed would be extinguished and was ratified by both the Scottish and English parliaments as being in that legal position.
The Question of Succession cannot be applied to a 1707/Scottish parliament, it ended in 1707. 300 years of ” REPARATIONS” TO SCOTLAND is the correct word,
unless you can proof there is still a “live and active Scottish parliament since 1707” in the treaty of parliamentary union with Englands Westminster parliament.
“Get the polls up to 60%+ and WM will grant a referendum and then its job done.”
I mean, they wouldn’t, but the rest of your argument is fair enough.
“but what if the reverse is true at any subsequent election in Scotland, and a party puts in their manifesto that a 50%+1 majority for reversing independence is a mandate… and on and on and on it goes.”
You can’t force another country to enter a union with you. But democratically they’d be perfectly entitled to adopt that platform. The alternative, either way round, is to refuse to accept the will of a majority.
Only Ash Regan of all the candidates has firmly stated her plan to take independence forward and to make it a priority. Humza, Kate, Alyn Smith, comfy Pete, and all the rest are just a bunch of pathetic independence bed-wetters. Oh, and Kate is a neanderthal, knuckle dragging homophobe, the likes of which most folk thought no longer existed. using her ‘religion’ to justify her inherent personal, pig-ignorant bigotry and hatred of gay folk.
It is clear, if you are in the SNP and actually want independence, vote for Ash Regan. If you want another eight or more years of dithering and nonsense, vote for Kate. If you want a good laugh, and really want to destroy the SNP for good, vote for the joke candidate, more accurately known as the ‘liz truss‘ option, Humza Yousaf.
Antoine Bisset,
How would you divide the debt issue between Scotland and England if Scotland became independent?
As there was no bank of Great Britain, it was the Bank of England, as a private corporation that had connections to the exchecquer voluntary, to the pre union, and after but not in or to Scotland or a Scottish bank after the union.
Legislation by Westminster over the bank of England was late in appearing in the treaty of parliamentary union that actually never happened.
The bank of England was a private corporation,
How do you divide any of the debt between a private corporation bank of England, national debt of GB and Scotland should it become independent.
I think beyond a shadow of a doubt the SNP are a party of devolutionists, there may be some exceptions but sadly they’re few and and far between, and who could blame them, devolution works for them,
lets face it would you in all honesty put at risk a £60,000 salary, big pension, trips abroad, subsidised food and drink all paid for by the tax payer for the a political ideal you might not win, there’s nothing to win and everything to lose,
where else would you get a job like that, by far most of them are paid well above their capability we can all see that, the problem isn’t the politicians, the politicians are only human simply behaving as people do, the problem is the system, it’s a system that not only breeds corruption, greed and dishonesty but actively rewards it,
It’s not the faces we need to change it’s the system, I don’t know exactly how we do that but I’ve been paying enough attention to see our political and legal system isn’t just rotten to the core it’s rotten from the core that’s why we need to get behind Salvo and create a Convention of Estates or similar forum so we can hold our politicians to a much higher standard than we do now,
I fear that Ash is the lesser of 3 evils. I never heard of her till she resigned. We need a strong,intelligent and articulate leader. Let’s be honest Salmond is the king in exile. The true believers should move to Alba rather than stay with Scottish Labour.2
I see on the ALBA site that they have leaflets ready to download and print.
Someone called Robin D wrote this:
“The Irish Parliamentary Party (IPP) were solely to blame for their downfall in 1918. To what extent would you agree with this statement?
It is correct that to a certain extent the IPP were liable for their own downfall in the period 1914-1918. This was due to their style of politics being outdated, out of touch with the Irish nationalist public opinion, lack of co-ordination within the party and the aging party leadership. However, other factors must be considered which contributed to the IPP’s demise. The Easter Rising of 1916 and how the British government dealt with this reflected badly on the constitutionalist IPP. They relied heavily on the British government to deliver Home Rule, but the lack of consistency and poor decision making was exposed during this time. Inevitably, the Irish public grew to distrust the IPP to some extent, and with the increasingly violent mood in Ireland, the people began to search for a stronger solution. This came in the shape of the Sinn Fein party, a dedicated band of nationalists who were co-ordinated, clear about what they wanted, and were not associated with the British government. In fact, the British government labelling the Easter Rising as a Sinn Fein stunt contributed to their publicity.”
You cannot force another Country to be in a union with you.
Stu, Well said.
But you can dupe them under false pretences, I realise this comes under the terminology of Deceit, Fraud, Misrepresentation, falsified information,
But all records both in Scotland and England would imply that is the case in both Countries for Scotland in a a parliamentary union with Englands parliament.
It never progressed into a union,
The rest of history for Scotland comes under the heading “Colonisation” by Westminster parliament
I wonder if Scotland will ever receive ” Reparations” for the Colonial Stock Scotland Act,
Or for the Colonial Agriculture and Fisheries Scotland board Act . By Westminster parliament.
Both of those Acts go under that title heading in “Hansard records” and both were enacted after the ( said) treaty of parliamentary union between Scotland and England,
How is it possible to be a Colony of Westminster parliament and in a international treaty with Westminster parliament at one and the same time?
Westminster seems to hold the view that Scotland is not in a treaty of parliamentary union, and states it is not. on the UK parliament site in 2023. Quote.
“The 1707 Scottish parliament extinguished it self by agreeing to the treaty of union”
Once in a generation bull shit.
In Northern Ireland’s parliament a generation is agreed with Westminster as 7 years.
If 25 years had passed since Indy Ref 1 Westminster would say we are living longer now it’s 30 years.
Scots never voted on giving up their sovereignty so the people have the right to vote when and for what they like.
Did Americans say we must pay that Tea tax to England so no way out?
Did India say we must pay that Salt tax to England so no way out?
I never accepted that last referendum as only English Media bias was available to the general public. They moved the goals at the last minute with the Vow.
They knew Scots wanted to be in the EU, only a No vote could deliver it- We are out of the EU
The people of Peterhead promised a £Billion carbon capture plant- now in England.
13 major ships for the Clyde the next year- parts of ships and boats years later.
3,000 HMRC jobs safe here with No going to Croydon.
How about this promise – Holyrood the most powerful devolved parliament in the world?
We have it confirmed that we have no powers Westminster can’t overrule.
Stormont is in the EU as they voted for and received a Billion bribe from the Tories.
Greenland has a more powerful parliament, Woolonia, Saxo-Coberg has one.
VAR shows the lying bastards offside their goal struck off!
We must become more radical.
Don’t play with their rules and lies or soon Boris will be back to look for your blood.
Free By (20)93!
I suppose the difference between being an enthusiastic supporter of independence in principle and someone who has to deliver it and own the consequences in detail, is that you eventually come up against the question, ‘What does Scotland want to achieve and how does independence fit into making that happen?’
If the aim is freedom from the English, that’s easy. If the aim is freedom from the English, a different more progressive social contract and increased wealth and security; then you quickly start racking up the risk factors. Because getting everything on the wish list never happens and not everyone that supports independence follows that up with the condition, ‘at any price’.
The truth is that there is broad support for independence, but a lot of that is soft support and conditional on it being a comfortable, enjoyable process that doesn’t interfere in their lives other than in a good way. Back in 2014 when we were in the EU, independence within the EU maintaining all the normal freedoms on the island seemed doable. Independence version 2.0 is an order of magnitude more complicated. The knowns are few, the unknowns legion.
I suspect Scotland’s political class have taken a good hard look at the job and simply lost their nerve when confronted by the scale of it. So have decided to steer the country towards Scexit In Name Only. A low risk semi separation achieved by degrees that can be announced as a win, but avoiding the risk that their names will appear in the history books alongside words like ‘disastrous’ and ‘ill-judged’. Oh, and they all get to stay on a nice well funded gravy train until retirement and still get to indulge their other political agendas.
I’m sure there are MSPs of a let’s just go for it persuasion, but you on’t have to look at dark forces keeping them out of power, the SNP have got that well in hand.
Scotland Flag Animation (2022): Flower of Scotland:
O Flower of Scotland
When will we see
Your likes again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit Hill and Glen…
https://tinyurl.com/jfemrczm
Has and does the private corporation bank of England separate records of national debt when it was the bank of England.
Is it still a private entity? , a private corporation, limited or other wise?
Or is the still bank of England under statues and laws been incorporated into Westminster?
For the division of national debt this is one of those issues that the MSM do not mention when they say Scotland would have to pay part of GB national debt,
To whom, and since when did the Bank of England become a Westminster commodity?
Intergrated into Westminster?
This Kate Forbes candidacy is having spin-off effects way beyond the issue dear to your hearts here. It’s going to the heart of the anti-woke counter revolution and the definition of “progressive” politics. Even journalists like Melanie Phillips have entered the fray. She has a substack article headlined: Kate Forbes and the Question of Liberalism. “There’s nothing progressive about barring a conservative Christian from office.” Kemi has already said much the same. Perhaps from this unlikely election something that effects the culture of the UK as a whole can arise. If so, many thanks Scots!
Another day and another poor day for Scottish Politics. We should be discussing how we can better the lives of Scottish people. High level economics and improvement in health, education, transport and so on. Instead the senior SNP cadre are trying to nail the end of Kate Forbes campaign. The same will happen to Ash Regan when she officially launches her campaign. Let me remind you that there has been many avoidable deaths in SNHS this week. The transport system to the Islands has falling over and so on. It hardens my support for Kate and/or Ash. Why are the Scottish political establishment and our State Broadcaster behaving like a bunch of rabid thugs?.
Ted @ 4:18pm:
I was on a phone call not forty minutes since and was saying the same as you.
I am interested because I am interested in the SNP contest in and of itself.
But it’s also going beyond Kate Forbes into questions of “who’s acceptable?” etc, and into “is there some discrimination going on here?”, especially where some folk have edged towards suggesting that she ought not to be allowed to even take part, which is quite something again from “well, she’s not entitled to votes or backing from other politicians!” (correct).
Perhaps we are taking “too big” steps on the issue of Indy.
The major question that has to be asked first is whether Scots as individuals are soverign..I am pretty sure that if this was taken to court then the fact that Charles had to swear to Claim of Right is relevant.
Who is he swearing that oath to? Why does he have to swear it at all if he is Rightful King and Sovereign in Scotland,
The Supreme Court has fudged this issue now on at least two occasions, stating that the will of the Scottish people is expressed by their reps in Westminster.
Surely it is wise to establish this basic fact in the highest Court, and all else follows.
I know the answer already. People dismiss this but there must be something in it when The Supreme Court dodge the issue.
Does the answer lie in a Convention of the Estates, which made the Kings oath necessary in the first place?
That is some hysterical reaction to her opposition to gay marriage.
I reckon homophobia is on the increase.
Personally I’m pretty pissed off with all the gay folk supporting trans rights.
I’m becoming homophobic.
Effijy.
I sense you’re frustration at the lack of knowledge and enthusiasm the independence side shows,
It sits heavy in all our hearts.
I have to admit long ago, I surpassed the Snp gossip talk and the faux Devolved parliament, and looked for other methods that are non-violent, but legal in attaining independence.
And although I am like a terrier that won’t let go of what I have sunk my teeth into.
It perhaps is a wise and persistent grasp of legal documentation of information that does not tally up.
Rather than attempting to sort out the latter mess of the Scottish devolved government and all who sale under that titanic governance flag.
It is definately more advantageous to sort out the mess at the beginning,
The very thing that is supposed to dominate Scotlands position in Britain,
This is one area you never hear the the politicians on either side scrutinising, and it has always made me wonder why we stick a plaster over Scotlands injury.
Rather that correcting what caused the injury in the first instance,
For we will be injured time and again in the future repeatedly if this is not remedied,
It seems all political parties in Scotland are happy to prolong the false fight of the union, for it maintains their cushey jobs and high wages, travel expenses and perks.
Why would they oppose their own wellbeing and finances, certainly not for us.
So the treaty of the union has more capacity for Scotlands state of independence than the frolicking Sh.te going on at the latter end.
And within that historical source of records, I find no progression of Scotland 1707 parliament entering into the treaty of the union. Therefore I fully understand why those that have a want to retain the union, do not talk about the legal position of the 1707 Scottish parliament even on here, a site that supports the independence of Scotland.
Its either a by-pass subject or a cancel culture subject,
But discussion and avoidance of that subject, like it carried the plague is duly noticed ,
It is not up for discussion to prove the ” legal event” of the treaty of union ever actually happened for right or wrong by those wanting to keep the union is avoided, just regime change of the political head party.
Handlers ensure That happens in every country,
You can call it a white flag all you want but it is reality. The Ash approach will lose you votes. Obviously the true believers will be in favour but you are a minority. You have to bring some floating voters with you and this will drive them away. As hard as it is for you all to accept, that is the reality. The fundamentalist approach will not work.
Who’s backing who in the leadership race.
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fpolitics%2F23334006.backing-snp-leadership-race%2F
So you John Swinney claims to be a ‘deeply’ religious man. Are ye John, aye?
Mark at 5:32
Fuck off.
The ‘dark polls’ ie the ones commissioned by political parties themselves & kept to themselves are pretty depressing for the prospects of any vote- no matter how it is framed -on independence being won.
That’s a fact as matters stand.
Another fact is that there has never been a majority poll for independence including don’t knows.
The question for politicians is how to create that majority- can anyone dispute that?
Therein lies the difficulties for your professional politician.
Firstly, if they are members of the SNP there has been no coherent policy apart from “Independence “-as yet even that destination is not clearly defined- eg currency, EU or no etc – there is no Sturgeonist economic plan or policy for instance, to hang your hat on.
The SNP is presently too broad a church- Swinney has just discovered Forbes’s religious beliefs apparently & can’t work with her because of that- who knew?
Secondly, they don’t have the intellect , skill or experience to create policies which would shift the dial. Also see above – it has too many diverse interests and
So what to do?
A headlong storming of the barricades and certain defeat?
As if.
These professionals will never willingly give up their “ profession” , income , status etc – for what?
They don’t even know after 14 years in power what an independent Scotland will look like so why go there when things are pretty good right here?
And if they lose one or a few of these ‘ votes ‘ on independence it’s also probably a P45.
So best keep kicking that can down the road.
Sad thing is that most of the people who post here including your host put them there- that’s another inconvenient fact.
In other news, a severe epidemic of bird flu has hit Scotland, and is centred in the SNP. This particular variant has been categorised as headless chicken disease, and was identified on the same day that Nicola Sturgeon announced her resignation.
Any guesses for the next piece of shit to hit the SNP/Sturgeon fan.
I am hearing there is something coming down the pipe and it is not Murray’s e mail’s
Johnny @ 4.39. Thanks for that. I perfectly understand that most commenters here are primarily concerned with Scottish independence and that is as it should be. I come here for the Rev’s unparalleled expose of woke-ism, which given the more left wing character of Scottish politics is even worse north of the border than in England. But the virus afflicts the whole UK and much of Europe beyond. Kate Forbes is a personification of the struggle against the cancellation culture of the left and here’s the thing: she had no clue this would happen or any intention of being in this position. I hope she stays strong as she might just find that the values of Scots chime more with her than, er, shall we say Beth or the Sturgeonites. If despite the hysteria to cancel her and ruin her she was to win, she would be a formidable opponent to the Union precisely because she would have spoken up for real people who just don’t recognise the horrific cultural destruction effected by the SNP. If she can survive even without winning, then in my opinion she will have done a service not only to Scotland but (more important to me personally) the whole UK.
Non unionists in the SNP hierarchy are about as rare as socialists in the Labour Party hierarchy.
Mark @ 5:32 could you explain the rationale for your perspective? Because unless you’ve got info that we all don’t…
Also, you’re mebbe missing the point. We’re not talking about whether we would “win” a referendum, we’re talking about the tight and agency to actually HAVE one.
Ignoramus says:
22 February, 2023 at 5:49 pm
“The ‘dark polls’ ie the ones commissioned by political parties themselves & kept to themselves are pretty depressing for the prospects of any vote- no matter how it is framed -on independence being won.
That’s a fact as matters stand.”
But you have been allowed into the inner workings of every party and you’ve seen the numbers they’ve “kept to themselves” obviously or you wouldn’t have given us that “fact” thus you can easily supply us with the names of the parties, their polling companies and dates along with all their dark poll figures.
What concerns me about Regan’s bid. She appears to favour a militant strategy which is playing into the Establishment’s hands. Does anyone remember Scotch on the Rocks ?
@Izzie 6:25pm
Is that the one written by anti-independence tory MP Douglas Hurd?
Izzie @ 6.25
You’re talking total mince.
Did you see the Lib-Dem party broadcast tonight?
That party is, obviously, existing in a parallel universe. Twice, ACH stated that the SNP and Greens were only interested in “the break-up of the United Kingdom”.
Only in the Lib-Dem world, ACH!
The rest of us are champin’ at the bit, looking for some leadership towards “the break-up of the United Kingdom”, an aim that has been, sadly, lacking from the SNP’s political activity since 2014.
ACH is trying to write an alternative, fictional, history, whilst we’re all here watching the reality of SNP independence intransigence.
Predictably, Smith the plant rides to the rescue of the British state to help them dodge the political missile of a majority of anti-union MPs elected on a mandate to terminate the union and worse, led by someone willing to use it.
Low calibre plants like Stewart McDonald and other non-entities were sent as the first round of “advice” against electing that lethal anti-union MP majority. That obviously went down like a lead balloon, so now they send us the second, upgraded round in the form of Smith.
I wonder who they will send next, will it be Mhairi Black, Blackford, Donaldson, some other unknown entity, somebody from the Smith Institute or some “celebrity”?
I am also guessing they are polishing Curtice as we speak and selecting some other unknown professor or academic as a nodding donkey to deliver an “update” on some imaginary poll stating “Scotland does not want a plebiscitary election” and why it is such a terrible idea. Never mind more and more people is realising it is the fastest route to terminate the union and a route the Irish have already successfully tested.
I wonder if the powers that be are already arranging to deploy a mummified Biden or Hillary Clinton to tell us daddy USA and uncle NATO do not think Scotland should have a plebsicitary election.
As a last resource, I guess they can always deploy a rebranded Prince Andrew or some other low ranking royal (so Charles, William and Kate can keep the pretence of political neutrality) to tell us how a plebiscitary election is a bad idea.
What is fascinating here is that all these plants are attacking the plebiscitary election idea rather than the only candidate who has endorsed it. You would think the establishment at this point would gang up against Ms Reagan instead of Ms Forbes. In that way they could ensure to have another useless puppet who would do nothing with a majority of anti-union MPs.
So why aren’t they doing that and they are instead attempting to shoot down in flames the idea of a plebiscite?
I can think in a few reasons:
1. the leadership election will be rigged so they already know Ms Reagan will not win officially
2. they are indirectly warning Ms Reagan and her backers that they will not support her or her manifesto even if she wins. In other worse, she will not be able to deliver that mandate.
3. they are attempting to disinfranchise the non-gradualists among their voting base by removing the expectation of a plebiscite. In other words, they are making the SNP unelectable for a larger voting base to improve labour’s chances.
The fact these people are attacking the idea of a plebiscitary election when there is no election in the horizon yet suggests they know the idea is popular, it is imprinted in the mind of voters and has become the expectation for far too many.
But it tells us something else: they are well aware that even if 50%+1 of the vote is not won under such manifesto, sending a majority of anti-union MPs elected on a mandate for independence is still lethal to the union.
I am of the opinion that, if all the wankers who have wasted 8 years of our majorities thwarting independence instead of progressing it tell us we should not do something, that something is precisely what we should pursue at cruise speed and the quicker we start, the better.
We see right through you Smith. You are as dishonest, as undemocratic, as unprincipled, as much a carrot waving coward and as much a political fraud as Sturgeon is.
Why don’t you come out of the political closet for once and start wearing the labour rosette? It would make you unelectable, alright, but at least would make you look sincere.
“That party is, obviously, existing in a parallel universe. Twice, ACH stated that the SNP and Greens were only interested in “the break-up of the United Kingdom”.”
That a classic in the propaganda strategy. Sturgeon’s SNP is so far removed from the pro-independence party Mr Salmond left in 2014, and so far down the devolution rabbit hole that the only validation as pro-independence party they can now have comes from unionists.
In my view, this is also the reason why unionist parties insisted in campaigning against a referendum. I am sure they all knew Sturgeon the fraud would never deliver one, but they had to validate the idea of one in the eyes of the voters.
It is the same strategy being used at UK level with labour and Tories. Labour under Starmer is so far to the right that the only way it looks “left” is when is put side by side with the current tories or when the tories call it “the left”.
Beth’s fervent admirer in the libdem Scottish branch is also using another classic propaganda word: “break-up”. Breaking something has always a negative psychological connotation. The correct word to use here, considering Scotland is in a voluntary bypartite union, is “dissolve/terminate”. Emotional blackmailing at its best. Just like the words “transphobe” or “antisemite” when used out of context or abused to silence dissent.
I’ve just signed up as one of ‘Ash’s Agents’. She is our only hope of independence anytime soon.
Whatever subterfuge is underway we’ll never know.
We do however need to do everything we can to get Ash Regan elected
Very difficult I know given the majority on here have left the SNP.
I’ve been contacting everyone I know who might still have a chance to influence things.
What else to do?
Tartanpigsy @ 7.51. says “What else to do?”
Answer: Nothing (concerning the SNP election).
The SNP is dying on its feet. Whoever becomes its next leader will not save it, it’s too far gone. Better to let it die sooner rather than later and get rid of the distraction so genuine independence supporters can take up the reins and make progress.
This is Sturgeon’s legacy that she is so proud of. I have unlimited contempt for what she has done.
“We’re not in the SNP, but we’re reasonably sure that anyone who is should already be committed to Scottish independence and to achieving it as a matter of unequivocal priority.”
The vast majority of Scottish MPs and MSPs are not in the least interested in achieving independence as a matter of unequivocal priority.
They are very comfortable in their current positions, thank you very much.
Even if Ash Regan is genuinely interested, she would be very quickly undermined.
As someone pointed out in another article, there is no hope of independence under the new SNP.
In the year 2123, Labour will still be promising to abolish the House of Lords and the SNP will still be promising to deliver independence.
Etticus says:
22 February, 2023 at 1:39 pm
“I’d be more likely to give anything he says credibility if he would admit that people like him are the reason we are in the mess we are now in.
When Sturgeon was trying to have Craig jailed and he was fully aware of how corrupt she was he still went out and campaigned and voted for the NewSNP.”
I second that.
Craig Murray had the opportunity to expose the criminal conspiracy to jail Alex Salmond, but failed to do so. He could have named the whole lot of them when there was no ban on it
Instead of releasing the emails he has recently got hold of quietly and by surprise, he has to declare it in advance, prompting a visit from the police.
Will he reveal useless redacted versions of them after Yousaf has been safely elected SNP leader?
What is he waiting for?
Republicofscotland says:
22 February, 2023 at 2:01 pm
“Rapist Adam Graham aka (Isla Bryson) has been placed back into a women’s prison a decision Medhurst of the SPS says was not influenced by any Scottish minister but taken by the SPS bigwigs themselves.”
Rev. Stuart Campbell, please pick up on this ASAP.
Scottish National Party has become Scottish Unionist Party . From SNP to SUP and supping from the British Systems teat is what they have become expert at. Makes you wonder how many – A. The British Gov has kompromat on and B. How many merely jumped on the SNP bandwagon for the £ from the off ( remember the crooked Tory marrying Mgarry ? ) and never believed in independence in the first place
Why are we in scotland accepting the so called supreme court ruling that holyrood can’t legally hold a ref. Although I think there are some working to legally prove that they don’t have that power as it is an internationally agreed treaty. Anyway a ref. should go ahead this year in October and let England do their worst either before or after the ref. we just need recognition from most of the rest of the world and to hell with England who will not recognise any which way we do it.
At last they are being honest. It has been obvious for years that a large proportion of the SNP – MSP’s, ‘advisers’ and staff – are very comfortable with the status quo. And why wouldn’t they be? Highly paid jobs, allowances and pensions, with very little demand of significant ‘product’ or results.
Sturgeon has been lukewarm for years, realising that all is required is a ritual bashing of the Tories and Westminster, some vague timetable for ‘change’ and Bob’s yer uncle. Wishart has been at it for years, and gets very hot under the collar when called out on it.
The giveaway is that they always, when pressed by actual independence supporters, start whining about the poor wee swing voters who will be frightened off by any talk of real change. The confirmation is in the numerous knock-downs of resolutions for change, real research, resolving of outstanding questions and preparations for independence. And of course, the neutering of any member input on policy. The entire party is now a vehicle for very comfy jobs and favours for approved groups, particularly those who claim to represent minorities, who are favoured wildly in place of the majority of Scots.
Hamza knows the drill and dutifully trots out the party line, with zero evidence that he either cares about these issues other than as the road to higher salaries and the elixir of power over others. He knows where the bodies are buried, and will keep quiet, while keeping the show on the road for all invested in the gravy train.
And they are so confident of blind support that now they can even confirm to the electorate that they were never interested in independence other than as a route to wealth and comfort. most insultingly they have at the same time they have no competence whatsoever to run day to day affairs and concerns over the economy, jobs, housing, health and education. It is enough to make you weep for Scotland.
Troughers gonna trough!
“Why are we in scotland accepting the so called supreme court ruling”
Because we have a political fraud as FM and “leader” of the main pro-independence party. A political fraud who has been, for 8 years and counting, colluding with the arms of the British state to abuse our pro-independence votes to keep the union going instead of ending it, to destroy that party and to block any route to Scotland’s independence.
No only we are talking about an international treaty. That English court is a byproduct of the union, the same as Westminster and the UK government. The legitimacy of that English court to rule over Scotland is already, to be very generous, dubious under the Treaty of Union. But should Scotland end the union and that court ends too. This means this court cannot possibly be seen from any angle, no matter how myopic, as an independent entity because it will be directly affected by that ruling. Only a Scottish court would be independent.
But there is a good reason why the fraud and the unprofessional lord advocate, who had no problem letting the aberrant GRR bill go through Holyrood despite knowing it would clash with Uk legislation, chose an English court and not a Scottish one for their charade.
Article XIX of the treaty of union states:”And that no Causes in Scotland be cognoscible by the Courts of Chancery, Queens-Bench, Common-Pleas, or any other Court in Westminster-hall; And that the said Courts, or any other of the like nature after the Union, shall have no power to Cognosce, Review or Alter the Acts or Sentences of the Judicatures within Scotland, or stop the Execution of the same”
Should a Scottish court had ruled that Holyrood had authority to pass that bill and no English court would have been able to turn that ruling down wihtout breaching the Treaty of Union.
Clearly, the establishment, the crown represented by that English court, the political fraud in charge of the SNP and her masters, the unprofessional lord Advocate who embarrassed herself and her profession with this sorry charade, think we are all stupid and will fall for their petty crap.
.
Folk seem to think Humza Yousaf is a bad choice?
Surely if we think this through, Humza the Gay Vote Dodger will be the worst FM ever and that will be good for every decent Scot in the country?
Humza is lethal for NuSNP, so PLEASE can the kamikaze voters in the NuSNP vote for Humza? Even the dogs in the street know that Humza Yousless has fuckedd up EVERY department Nicola gave to her over-promoted lacky.
Voting Humza Fuck-it-up as First Mingster will defo kill off the NuSNP.
U.K. Gov will DEMOTE the over-priced Holyrood Gravy Train to the…
“Scottish Regional Council.”
It’ll then be Provost Humza of McTammany Hall.
The closure/demotion of the Scottish Government by NuSNP incompetence will pi55 off a lot of folk. They will then vote for any party other than the disgraced, rudderless Sturgeon Nonce Perv bunch.
Surely this will be good for Alba and inspire the Scottish electorate to vote for anyone other that the Pickle_Bee bunch of violent prostititutte brigade with 7 inches of extra fun in his/her/it’s underwear?
“ Surely this will be good for Alba and inspire the Scottish electorate to vote for anyone other that the Pickle_Bee bunch of violent prostititutte brigade with 7 inches of extra fun in his/her/it’s underwear?”
If you believe that you’ve really not been paying attention.
The MSM actually DOES control the narrative.
Just look at the numbers still in snp, the amount of yellow and blue flags on Yessers Bio’s
Ten years plus after the first bbc demos
An electorate who thought they were savvy are still acting like fucking imbeciles buying every line the WEF/NWO whatever you want to call it establishment are selling them.
Until people question everything MSM from whatever angle it’s coming , and seriously ask why are they telling/selling me this story at this moment in time?
We’re not gonna overthrow anything, right any wrongs or achieve basic progress to a just society.
Too much complacent naivety I’m afraid
Alba will be a long, slow project in the best of circumstances
.
Good morning Tartanypigsy,
Thanks for your reply.
You are spot-on.
Not much of anything you wrote has content I would disagree with.
My beef is with the NuSNP. Sadly, all the feckless Amadans at the massed ranks of the SNP current membership are guilty of this…
“Evil triumphs when good me and women fail to act.”
Sturgeon was evil personified (oh how blissful it is to use the word “was” in the same sentence as Sturgeon now that she has run away from the FM job to throw Penfold Murrell under a polis bus).
You mention nativity. But there is no naivety in this matter as nobody really knows who is on which side.
Wings BTL is riddled with the 77th Brigade. Have you ever noticed when IndyRef2 seems to be awakening from vegetative state, THIS VERY WEBSITES’S BTL SECTION COMES ALIVE WITH STRANGE NEW IDS, NEW POSTERS AND EVEN SOME OF THE OLD GANG?
It starts with the likes of Gregor C. Brodie. Then the multiple 77th Bridade Uber Trolls joins in. Some of his/her/it’s syntax gives it away. A classic “tell” is some computer-literate squaddie in the 77th uses three commas instead of a proper ellipse,,,
Time in forensics and many courses at places such as Tulliallan teach you to spot those miscreants.
Though at this stage, the declared 7,181 very smart workers at GCHQ have played such a master stroke making the SNP implode after squeaky-bum time in September 2014, that the most ardent Indy supporting Scot with any moral compass has to have questioned the following…
(a) Should I vote for the NuSNP, an Orwellian, political party of rapists, pedos, biological women deniers, thieves, liars led by a dreg from Dreghorn. An excremental actress/FM-imposter who tried to jail her mentor, Alex Salmond in a political mockery of a trial? A NuSNP that jails journalists and passes corrupt laws, whilst bankrupting Scotland with half a billion pounds of rusting hulk ferries and a list of failure as long as your arm?
Or…
(b) Should I vote for the least-worst option? At least with the Conservatives you know you will be getting Uber-austerity that is killing off the elderly and disabled by freezing them to death. With the ridiculous situation of a Scotland being as energy rich as Saudi Arabia, but letting the weakest die through lack of heating affordability and food bank poverty whilst their billionaires get tax cuts and WEF energy companies declare obscene profits?
The very definition of Hobson’s choice.
Tartanpigsy, your observations are correct my friend.
I would summarise…
Stuart Campbell took pelters of abuse when he took the logic of GCHQ’s master stroke to its conclusion. Disgusting abuse was heaped on the Rev. Stuart Campbell is a man who devoted years of his life to help the YES movement in Scotland during 2014 more than anyone else (except Alex Salmond at the top spot). A movement that volte faced and trashed their helper.
The logical conclusion? Vote for the austerity party rather than Sturgeon’s Nonces and Pervs.
Seriously, you have to hand it to the U.K. government and whoever led the team at the 77th after David Cameron near crappped himself at how he nearly let Scotland escape. It is check-mate.
Indy lost. The YES movement lost.
It will come back, but Alex Salmond’s reputation will take decades to recover and with respect, Alex is 68 years old and has underlying health issues at a time when Covid is not completely tamed.
The NuSNP will soon fail electorally. Labour are also fucked. The Greens are Deviant HQ. LibDems are a lying bunch of Alastair Campbells.
Scotland best get used to returning to 6 SNP MPs at Westminster.
Next… there will be a new campaign, led by MSN to drastically curtail Holyrood.
And do you know what? I voted SNP every election from 2007 to 2017. I will NEVER vote SNP again. I’d consider voting to close Holyrood and sack (without pension) all of the selfish, money-grabbing troughers from that Edinburgh rotten borough.
What’s left in this 1984 classic as written by George Orwell at a place ironically I know so well? Bar hill on the Island of Jura.
Alba will be turned into a mini SNP. Failing to break through. Alba already has very small creeps like the Wings-Stalker diddy James Kelly as it’s “voice of reason” FFS.
So Alba are doomed. They just don’t know it yet.
I have seen how Westminster are starting to directly help the Scottish economy. You know what? The NuSNP blew it. That party must be extinguished and will be by the electorate.
If London sends a fair share of our money back to Scotland and helps create Scottish jobs whilst blocking the trans cult, then my vote is sorely tempted to go that way. All they need do is give us back enough of the money we send to them so we can stop the auld and disabled from freezing to design, plus Westminster help create real jobs in Scotland, then they will keep their vote up enough to save the Union.
Before the old SNP and NuSNP trolls slag me off from their high moral tower of rapists, liars, thieves and deviants, cast an eye to the new campaign by Donald Trump.
TRUMP IS GOING AFTER THE WOKE BRIGADE.
The telling thing is Trumps 2024 bid for the American Presidency is polling at 55%.
Seems like ACTUAL VOTERS in America dislike trans cultists teaching their 5 year old children that “Minor Attracted Persons” are a normal part of the trans non-binary term acronym-infested QT spectrum.
Well played 77th Brigade. Seriously, you really have fuckedd up the SNP. Forever.
Hear, hear!
[David Hannah says:
22 February, 2023 at 1:44 pm
John Swinney has come out as Christian to smear Kate Forbes for wrong think. Swinney isn’t for tolerating the Wee free. He told good morning Scotland:
“I’m a man of deep Christian faith but I do not hold the same views as Kate has set out in the course of the last couple of days.
“Kate is perfectly entitled to express her views, but party members are equally entitled to decide if someone who holds those views would be an appropriate individual to be SNP leader and first minister.”
Just as Scotland, are perfectly entitled to tell our cloth eared politicians we want Independence, we don’t want male rapists in female jails, or your creepy schools sex survey. Let alone gender self ID, 70% against.
Gender ideology is not our faith. Stop imposing it on us. You’re cancelled Swinney.]
re. “It starts with the likes of Gregor C. Brodie. Then the multiple 77th Bridade Uber Trolls joins in.”
Personally speaking, I love these absurd personal attacks and wacko ‘77th Gregor C. Brodie’ conspiracy theories, and didn’t realise that an individual could hold so much power of social influence over a malicious cohort of (so-called) intellectuals/’proper citizens’/Indy champions (what principles/human values/self-respect ???)
Scotland and its authentic patriots will not allow you to degrade and trash Scotland’s cultural heritage/identity (what we are supposed to be protecting).
Just think what Scotland could achieve if wasn’t so pig-ignorant to the unlimited power of our reality.
@Reality isn’t afraid to confront you (should such losers keep stabbing it)…
Big Brother Watch (2023): 77th Brigade spied on lockdown critics:
“A new report by civil liberties group Big Brother Watch reveals that the British army secretly spied on British citizens critical of Government policies during the pandemic. A former 77th Brigade whistleblower told Big Brother Watch that this shady unit targeted high-profile journalists, public figures, politicians and even ordinary citizens…”:
https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/2023/01/daily-mail-77th-brigade-spied-on-lockdown-critics/
re. “Well played 77th Brigade. Seriously, you really have fuckedd up the SNP. Forever.”
…Self-declared defeatist Scotland (loser) – showing the whole world its profound weakness (WTF)
I’ve got absolute faith in Scotland and its wonderful people (it never wavers)…
The premise has been wrong from the beginning. Scotland is already independent as part of the UK, a unitary state, internationally recognised. So the word ‘independence’ is meaningless.
What about just under half of the residents of Scotland/North Britain seek is secession from the UK. That’s an all together different proposition.
Given that the SNP have failed and are in decline, will a properly thought out secession campaign emerge….
This has to be the start of the end for the SNP unless Ash Regan wins and can turn it around. I doubt either can happen. They have become infested and rotten to the core. How anyone can still think membership with this lot in charge is a good thing is beyond comprehension. Last chance saloon.