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The tracks are always greener

Posted on April 02, 2018 by

Stuck for any actual news at the tail of the Easter weekend, today’s Scottish Daily Mail reaches once again into the bag marked “Emergency Barrel Scrapings” and comes up with that old faithful beloved of all newspapers, a shock-horror “OMG LOOK HOW EXPENSIVE THE TRAINS ARE!” story.

It’s always an easy hit – partly because since a shambolic, fragmented privatisation the UK does have pretty much the most expensive railways per mile in the civilised world, but also because regular train users tend to mainly travel in the same area all the time, and are easily persuaded that they have it worse than people anywhere else.

So let’s ignore all the Mail’s ridiculous cobblers blaming the SNP – who have very limited control over the fare policies of Abellio (the Dutch state-owned company who run ScotRail) and who have been prevented by successive UK governments from nationalising the network – and just see if that’s true.

The first thing we noticed, being fairly frequent train travellers, was that the peak-time commuter fare between Glasgow and Edinburgh didn’t actually seem very high.

£380 a month comes out to about £12.50 a day for a 98-mile return trip, or 12.7p a mile, which really isn’t bad. If you did the same journey by car, it’d take you up to three hours each way, rather than one hour by train:

And even if you got 30mpg in stop-start commuter traffic – a miracle – it’d cost you around £17 in petrol, plus all the other costs of running a car and maybe parking too.

(The UK government’s official mileage rate is 45p a mile. That comes out to £44.10 a day, so even if there are three of you in the car every day you’re losing money. And if you DO happen to travel with someone else every day, you could get a Two Together Railcard and knock 33% off the train fare.)

Now, that £12.50 is a season ticket price, and season tickets are usually sold at a fairly substantial discount. What if you don’t need to travel every day (and especially not at the weekends)? Between Edinburgh and Glasgow, as long as you don’t mind an extra 10-15 minutes on your journey, you can do it at peak time for only 50p more than the season-ticket rate:

(Plus that way you’ll get to enjoy the beautiful scenery of Bathgate, it’ll still take you an hour and a half less than the poor schlubs in a car, and you can read the paper, check your emails or muck around on Twitter, all of which are not advised when driving down the M8 and may attract the costly interest of officers of the law.)

But how do the perpetually-maligned ScotRail compare with train services elsewhere in the UK? Wings HQ in Bath is handily located within a 50ish-mile journey of several mainline stations on all points of the compass, so we did some comparisons.

The beautiful and bustling Welsh capital of Cardiff is only a few miles more from Bath (about 57ml door-to-door) than Edinburgh to Glasgow, but the lowest peak-time return fare is almost TWICE the Scottish equivalent and takes the same amount of time (or more) as the cheap Bathgate route.

So that’s the cost to go west to somewhere desirable. What about north? Gloucester (52ml due up from Bath) isn’t many people’s idea of a glamorous destination, but it still costs 50% more than travelling between Scotland’s two biggest cities for broadly the same journey length.

What if you’re a hipster who wants to get a bit closer to the bright lights of the great metropolis? Didcot (59ml from Bath) is a little two-street rural town of 25,000 people – about the same as Arbroath – that’s mainly famous for formerly having a dirty great power station and for being “the most normal town in England”, but it’s in the London commuter corridor, so travelling to it incurs something of a premium.

That’s over four and a quarter times the cost of travelling roughly the same distance as between Scotland’s two great and glorious urban conurbations, and for all that cash you’ve ended up in Didcot.

Only by travelling south to Taunton can you get about 50 miles from Bath for 13 quid, and nobody has ever voluntarily travelled from anywhere nice to Taunton.

So the next time you’re tempted to fume at ScotRail, or (admittedly less plausibly) to believe anything written in the Scottish Daily Mail, just stop for a moment and think about how much worse you could be doing.

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  1. 02 04 18 12:56

    The tracks are always greener | speymouth

249 to “The tracks are always greener”

  1. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Another good piece Rev, BUT, and I’m sorry there has to be a but, your three hours each-way from an Edinburgh to Glasgow trip, or vice versa does seem a tad extreme.

    I accept, if there was a horrendous crash, or a sudden, heavy snow fall, a three-hour trip would be possible, but, in my considerable experience, that’s very rare, and extreme.

    I regularly use my bus pass for trips along the M8 corridor and the bus generally takes just under 90 minutes for the Buchanan Street to St Andrew’s square trip. I would expect to do this a bit quicker by car.

  2. galamcennalath says:

    Some European subsidies. € per passenger Km (oldish figures)

    Germany 22c
    Spain 21c
    Italy 19c
    France 15c
    Netherlands 15c
    United Kingdom 7c

    Sums up the UK’s attitude to passenger rail travel!

  3. Walter Scott says:

    Nobody blames Theresa May for the railways in England. Or the state of the roads or bridges, & why would they. But complaints by the DM are always just one step away from a hatchet job on the SNP or Sturgeon

  4. Gaelstorm says:

    It is inconcievable that I could believe anything in the Daily Heil.

  5. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I accept, if there was a horrendous crash, or a sudden, heavy snow fall, a three-hour trip would be possible, but, in my considerable experience, that’s very rare, and extreme.

    Take it up with Google, man. But the post does say “up to”.

  6. Dan Huil says:

    @Walter Scott 12:01pm

    Exactly right, Walter. Britnat hypocrisy has a repeating timetable.

  7. Peter Macbeastie says:

    Ah, the good old Daily Fail.

    What would we do without them? People would need something else to line their budgie cages.

    Cheers for the prices around your current location; that’ll be really useful when my current unionist colleague starts ranting about it.

    All the unionist media are exactly the same. They scream about things in Scotland as though no one could possibly know what’s going on elsewhere in the UK, and when you bring up ‘elsewhere in the UK’ they suggest you’re trying to deflect from what’s going on in Scotland.

    After all, in some things they do like to claim Scotland isn’t the same country, so things that happen in England aren’t even remotely relevant. It’s funny how that works.

    If you’re paying attention it’s completely obvious England is getting screwed at an infinitely faster rate, and the only difference is who’s in charge.

    I am acutely aware the SNP isn’t perfect, but compared to the shite in charge in England they come up almost angelic.

  8. Arbroath1320 says:

    Just as well they didn’t decide to go on the attack of Scottish railways by using the Public Performance Measure (PPM) figures then.

    Absolutely shocking figures from Scotrail which doesn’t show but WE all know were hit by rail works and snow yet they STILL managed to reach the giddy heights of EIGHTH out of 23 rail companies for the PPM %age in period 12 2017/18 with a score of 86.6%.

    I’m pretty sure this figure will start to rise again, pretty quickly once all the rail upgrades and bad weather is over to reach the low to mid 90%age region.

  9. Tatu3 says:

    My son pays pennies under £300 a month for 21 miles into the centre of London from where he lives

  10. G says:

    “£380 a month comes out to about £12.50 a day”

    Only if you are travelling on 31 days in a month. It would be more accurate to divide by something like 20 (for a Mon-Fri working week), which gives £19 a day.

    Also, the £13 return via Bathgate is a temporary offer until May. This was offered by Scotrail to try to get people to go on the Bathgate line rather than the Falkirk line, which is currently overcrowded since the lease has run out on some of their carriages (due to the new trains being behind schedule).

    Under normal circumstances, a peak-time return from Airdrie to Edinburgh is £19.20. It will be more from Glasgow. Peak-time is anything before 10am.

  11. On travelling by bus from Buchanan Street BS to Edinburgh, let’s not forget the 53 sets of pedestrian crossing lights in Corstorphine. Hit that black spot on pension day and a bus journey can take 12 hours, or maybe it just seems like that.

  12. Hamish100 says:

    Reading the Daily Heil is bad for the health and for your morals.

    Incidentally who controls the rails that trains run on and are always running late in engineering terms. oops shhhh Westminster

  13. TheMadMurph says:

    There are also a number of group saving and family saving tickets to bring the prices down further, with Scotrail.

  14. Jim Clark says:

    The DM article seems to be a regurgitation from the arch-unionist Courier yesterday. Looks as if the Britcybernats have a reporters’s clique as well as a letter-writer’s clique.

  15. G says:

    A monthly ticket from Airdrie to Edinburgh is £296.50.

    A monthly ticket from Woking to London is £311.90.

    Both journeys are roughly 30-35 miles, so there’s not much in it.

    Also the Woking journey doesn’t have to go through BATHGATE!

  16. The Man in the Jar says:

    A wee bit off topic but.

    In the 19th-century Catalonian entrepreneurs funded a railway system. It was designed to assist fresh produce from the rural communities to reach the southern ports for export.

    In contrast, when the Spanish government built a rail system it was designed to link up all of the royal palaces surrounding Madrid.

    Suprised? Not!

  17. Proud Cybernat says:

    Did Paddington Station to Slough last week (21 miles) cost £18.

    Also did Paddington to Bookham (Surrey) last week (29.6 miles) cost £23.00.

    Some people just don;t know when they’re onto a good thing – especially the weapons grade wallopers at the DM.

  18. heedtracker says:

    That Glasgow/ Edinburgh take much too long for the distance. It must a huge block to growth but its pretty much what you’d expect after so long under the control of our red tory chums.

    We used to get the Schiphol airport train to Rotterdam, 20 minutes, 50 km’s, huge double decker trains, 10 euro, every ten minutes.

    Aberdeen, oil capital of Europe, no trains at all to Aberdeen Airport, taxi and bus only, 2018. 1970’s Scotland, lets build a new ABZ airport terminal for the coming oil industry boom! What about transport infrastructure to get to it? get a cab. Its only Scotland. They can muddle along.

  19. HandandShrimp says:

    Wouldn’t it cut to the chase and make like easier if the Mail simply had a reusable

    FFS! SNP Still Bad…Won’t Any One Listen…Oh The Humanity!

  20. Robert Kerr says:

    What are you trying to do “G”?

    Derail the thread so soon?

    48 miles and 55 mins between E and G. 23 miles and 24 mins between W and L. for my figs.

    What has Airdrie got to do with the thread?

    Are you a troll? Not even a name. just a letter cypher. Sad really.

    We had enough “whataboutery” during Indiref1.

    Please desist.

  21. Gfaetheblock says:

    The comparison doesn’t really hold water, and I do commute between the two cities by both train, car and occasionally bus.

    Unless you live and work at the two train stations, you spend time and money getting to and from them. This could be walking, bus, undrground or taxi, it would need to be included in any time and cost comparison.

    I have never heard of anyone driving from Waverley to Queen st.

  22. PhilM says:

    Trains go from one city centre to another city centre. To do that by car would be travelling from one central parking area to another. If you were travelling from one multistorey car park in Edinburgh to one in Glasgow then you might easily be near a two hour trip and that’s if you know where you’re going. Perhaps the era of the smartphone and satnav have…just had a moment of self-awareness…what the fuck am I doing arguing about this! Time to go and get a life before I end up like Kevin from Eggheads. That was a close one…
    The Daily Mail nearly had me there…

  23. Grammya says:

    Never posted here before, hope I get it right. Found your article about train fares interesting.

    However I noticed the Scotrail info was dated 3rd April, but the others were dated the 9th and 10th. In the interests of accuracy, do prices not change depending on date of travel? Last time I travelled by train prices varied on different days. Also, all except Scotrail had “First Class” at top of page. Pedantic I know, but wouldn’t want to give anyone reason to deny your point.

  24. Bobp says:

    Keep the jocks in their box. Shut up and eat your porridge.

  25. Craig P says:

    Thank Christ I don’t have to do that commute any more. I’d rather move house.

  26. Thepnr says:

    Privatisation is what has us paying the highest rail fares in Europe. That Tory ideology so beloved by the Daily Mail is responsible not the Scottish government.

    Prices to travel by rail now are so high that if you are travelling more than a couple of hundred miles then it is almost always cheaper to fly.

    We musn’t forget either that only in Scotland if you are over 60 and choose to take the bus rather than the train it will cost you SFA.

    What about the price of a 1st class stamp? Went up last Monday to 67p and 58p for a second class. For a stamp!

    Lets focus on gaining our Independence and we can bring the railways and the royal mail back into public ownership. The Daily Mail can go take a hike so too can Tory ideology, they rip us off to create private profits.

    Simply wealth transfer from the poorest to the wealthiest. I’ve had enough of this crap.

  27. Calum McKay says:

    It’s the drip, drip and drip, etc of SNP + BAD from press and bbc we have come to expect, both feed off each other and off labour and tory party press releases.

    Many leaders through out the world moan at what the “free press” say about their governments.

    Imagine if those leaders had to govern with a press and state broadcaster that was controlled outside their country by another government opposed to their leadership and that press and state broadcaster could publish what ever they wished without redress?

  28. Glamaig says:

    Socrates MacSporran says:
    2 April, 2018 at 11:52 am

    ‘three hours each-way from an Edinburgh to Glasgow trip, or vice versa does seem a tad extreme’

    Its really not – its a soul-destroying commute by car if done on a daily basis. 90 mins is an average, two hours each way is not that uncommon.

  29. G says:

    @Robert Kerr

    Here we go. Put forward additional information that suggests that rail travel in Scotland might not be the bargain that some people think it is and get accused of being a troll.

    “What has Airdrie got to do with the thread?”
    Have a wild guess. That’s my commute.

    If you’d rather compare the Glasgow – Edinburgh journey – outside of this one-off promotional offer – the cost is £24.70 return.

  30. Effijy says:

    Good old Daily Hail.

    Packed with anti-Scottish Propaganda every day.

    Where the Truth is barred and a Haven for falsehoods!

    I seen a survey of the UK’s top land owners.
    51 People or groups are listed but Scotland doesn’t really appear
    until you get into the top 10.

    It seems a Danish Chap by the name of Povlsen owns around 220,000 Acres in Scotland and the Duke of Buchleuch around 240,000. The current Duke is from the old boy network at Eton and Oxford and his Heir apparent to the Dukedom is listed as being a British Nobleman born in London.

    Great to know that 2 people have around 720 square miles of this small nation in their pocket.

    Other vast land owners are the MOD, Crown Estates, UK National Trust, RSPB, etc. (All English Based)

    I’m now wondering if there is enough room left for me to have actually bought the land my house stands on?

    Scotland Raped, Robbed and Ridiculed by our English Masters!

  31. Thepnr says:

    Graphic showing the comparison between rail fares in the UK and other EU countries in terms of 5 of income from 2017.

  32. Nigel says:

    Your fare and distance comparisons also miss out an important point. The quality of the trains. Edin-Bathgate-Airdrie-Glasgow – relatively newly rehabilitated line with modern electric trains and good route options for travellers – from Helensburgh etc via North Clyde Line. The E-G has recently been energised with 25kV AC OHLE and will have brand new electric trains (the work on the much publicised Queens Street Tunnel rebuild was part of the E-G upgrade and electrification).

    Some of the west of England journeys described in the article will be on 1986-7 built 2-car diesel Class 150s or 1989-90 158s…also Bath – Cardiff Central there’s the chance of something even less enjoyable to ride in – a ‘Pacer’! Have the former Thames Trains 165s and 166s been cascaded on to your routes yet? Oh what a joy they are :-/

    The truth is that ScotGov is doing reasonably well with ScotRail (room for much improvement though) and this is a problem to the BritNats and its MSM. I am as a regular traveller, often critical of the lack of cleanliness, the lack of leg room and seat design in some ScotRail trains, but overall, it’s better than my experiences of travelling on trains further south.

    As an aside and a fare comparison: A recent journey using an advance ticket from Aviemore to GQS and return cost me £40 including seat reservations – on a Friday, returning on an early evening train from GQS. Good mileage there for £40, even though the 170s are not the best of trains for what is an Inter-city journey distance. Try doing that distance for £40 on First Great Western or SWR, or XC or Arriva Trains Wales on a Friday!

  33. Bob Mack says:

    The comparison holds a lot of water. No matter how you travel ,by car you have parking charges unless they are scrapped in England. By bus you have bus fares,unless they are scrapped in England. Taxi fares are charged in England too you know.
    What is obvious is that rail travel is cheaper here than elsewhere. That is all that the Rev is claiming.

    My good lady travels by train nearly every day rather than the hassle of driving and parking.

  34. Macart says:

    They’re doing it deliberately… again!

    This whole using context and comparison thing may catch on. 🙂

  35. Cairnallochy says:

    I recall some time back, perhaps last year, one of the UK MSM complaining about how cheap Scottish fares were compared to fares in English, using as an example a peak time return ticket from somewhere in commuter land north west of London which cost more than a saver fare from Stranraer to Aberdeen, thus demonstrating how much these Scots were being subsidised by the generous fold in the home counties.

    Unfortunately I can’t remember the exact starting point for this notional journey. Will post if it comes back to me.

    I know a lot of my pals complain about the “rip off” ie peak time fares which militate against hopping across from Glasgow to Edinburgh or vice versa for evening football but it appears to me to be a logical part of the operating systems of modern railways; I don’t see that private companies will ever accept having large amounts of rolling stock lying around idle most of the day in order to meet the limited period of peak time demand. Nor, given the restricted peak time capacity arising from this rationale, are they likely to prioritise the odd punter travelling to the odd game or evening out over the season ticket holder to regular traveller.

    I frequently travel on half + filled off peak trains and also enjoy the advantages of advance fares. I went down to Berwick last season (one way) for about £2.50. I doubt if I could travel 58 miles anywhere in Western Europe for anything like this sum.

  36. Effijy says:

    The Rev posted a pre Indy Ref article from one of Labour’s Leading Liars, Brian Wilson where he tried to show how costs for postage would escalate in an independent Scotland.
    H tried to compare the cost of postage in an independent Irish Republic and that of the UK.

    Of course he deliberately used false figures, or he just can’t count, a common problem with Labour leaders, to show the UK offered better value, when it obviously didn’t when the real stats were used.

    It was cheaper for those in Northern Ireland to post items in the Republic that carried N.I. delivery addresses.

    1st 2nd
    2008 36p 27p

    2009 39 30

    2010 41 32

    2011 46 36

    2012 60 50

    2013 60 50

    2014 Sold of to Rich Tories with rates as above

    2018 67 58

    Second class is the most economical method for business to post
    but it has gone up by over 210% in the last 10 years.

    Not only that but you will find many secure jobs have now gone, deliveries are fewer and these deliveries are later in the day.

    The Bosses at the top though are now making a fortune just like the shareholders.

    Liberal Vince Cable of course sold off Royal Mail around £1 Billion below their market value.

    Lansdowne, a UK hedge fund manager, which is known for its close links to the Conservative Party, also appears to have received an allocation of around 18 million shares, at a cost of just under £60m.

    Good old Westminster corruption!
    Robbin’ Good steal from the poor
    give to the rich, put jobs in the ditch.

  37. Crackerjack says:

    Re: The SNP

    There is no coordinated progressive initiative for people to get behind.

    The only comfort is that support for Independence “somehow” remains solid, but I get the sense these days that such stubborn support for Independence is in spite of the SNP, not because of it.

    As time goes by, there is a growing dread that such support is as likely to fall through despair as it is to rise through optimism.

    That, I’m sorry to say, I pretty much can attribute to the SNP..

  38. Proud Cybernat says:

    BREAKING from Pravda Quay
    with Union Jackie Kim Ono:

  39. Thepnr says:

    With the price of a 2nd class stamp now at 58p I don’t have a scooby how businesses can afford to send me such crap as I get through the door.

    Must be costing the BBC a fortune for all those threatening letters 🙂

  40. G says:

    Here is the link on the Scotrail website to the relevant offer:

    Expires 19th May. It’s nice to get a discount when having to put up with the extra inconvenience, but this is not the normal price.

  41. Artyhetty says:

    It’s a fabulous tactic, tell the people they are being ripped off and don’t tell them that they would be twice as ripped off if they lived in England. People like to complain so always give them a reason, right wing rags excell at it.

    I met a social worker, originally from Finland, about 3 years ago, and when talking on the subject of trains in Scotland, he reckoned they were pretty damn reasonable, but that, ‘as soon as you go over the border to England it’s really stupidly expensive’. Try going to NE England, just to step foot on a privatised bus or metro ( not the wee free rag) costs an arm and a leg!

    If you are over 50, you can join the Scotrail ‘over 50s club’ and get some excellent deals for train travel in Scotland. Yippee! It’s the one good thing about getting on abit in years! Not speaking from experience mind!

    Again though, when are we going to maybe look at why devolution isn’t good for Scotland. Who operates Network Rail? England, as far as I know. So if there are problems with tracks or some other thing that needs to be maintained to keep the trains functioning, we can do nothing about it, it’s up to Network rail. Just as the electricity National Grid is operated from England and so charge Scotland to connect, but pays London to connect. It’s all very disfunctional, for Scotland.

    I looked up Didcot,it does look like it needs a wee makeover. Mind you it looks like there is quite a lot of crime around there, loads ram raids on atm’s and stuff. Not good. Not such a green and pleasant land at all.

  42. Derick fae Yell says:

    All the above doesn’t even mention the £742m being spent to electrify the central Scotland network after decades of unionist neglect.

    Plus the £475m being spent by Scotrail on 70 new electric trains.

    Plus the refurbished High Speed Trains which will run to Inverness and Aberdeen from next year.

    Queen Street itself currently is undergoing a £100m+ refurbishment, demolishing the vile hotel at the front and replacing it with a rather fabulous new glass front and concourse, with extended platforms for the new trains.

    The amount of work being done on Scotland’s railways is mind-boggling. At least equal to the Queensferry Bridge, but being done to infrastructure that is in daily use by thousands of people.

    Sounding like a trainspotter here but hey I commute by train. Since November I have been able to get an electric 380 to work. 7 carriages, silent, goes like shit and lots of room. Looking forward to the Hitachis. Which will then presumably cascade the diesel 170s to the suburban lines.

  43. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Also, the £13 return via Bathgate is a temporary offer until May.”

    I just went back onto National Rail Enquiries, and you can still get £13 peak-time returns through Bathgate on the 22nd of June, which is the latest day it’ll let you check for. (The 6.44am from Glasgow QS, the 7.07am, the 7.17am, the 7.38am and the 7.47am.)

  44. schrodingers cat says:

    Thepnr says:

    Must be costing the BBC a fortune for all those threatening letters ?

    you mean the fire lighters?

  45. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Your fare and distance comparisons also miss out an important point. The quality of the trains. Edin-Bathgate-Airdrie-Glasgow – relatively newly rehabilitated line with modern electric trains and good route options for travellers – from Helensburgh etc via North Clyde Line.”

    Yep, whenever I’ve been home since the new station opened in Bathgate a few years ago I’ve been very impressed with the service – big, comfy, spacious trains with loads of carriages. You should see the skanky little two-carriage boneshakers you get down here even for fairly lengthy journeys like Southampton or Weymouth (2h 5m).

  46. Artyhetty says:

    Re: Heedtracker@12.57pm

    Yes the UKok has always been backward in terms of travel etc. If Scotland’s industries hadn’t been so luctrative to England’s gov and their economy, Scotland would still be getting around on horse and cart! They only built roads and rail to get the goods ( ie Scotland’s resources) and workers around, and to transport it out of Scotland, some for the land thieves to get around as well. You can watch lots of films about Scotland industries and transport at the National Library of Scotland website, nls image archive. Fascinating.

    When I first came to Edinburgh, 20 odd years ago, there was one train every hour top get to Glasgow! It took at least an hour to get there. Now it’s every 15 minutes and takes about 45 minutes depending which route you take. Not great, but a bit better than it was under Labour/Tory’s watch.

  47. Thepnr says:

    OK this is from 2015 but still very relevant today. Privatisation is what has broken rail transport in the UK. 90% of profits made by the private rail companies go to shareholders in those companies.

    Tory ideology blindly going done the privatisation route has stolen OUR wealth and gave it to those that support the Tory party. Not only that, their slashing of the budgets for essential services like the NHS, schools and welfare means all these services are creaking under the onslaught. Lowest pensions of all OECD countries, Tories scrapping free school meals for the poorest childen in E&W. Who could vote for people that follow these policies?

    The selfish and the greedy, let’s get out of here ASAP and make our own choices in future.

    Following Friday’s rail fare hikes, a commuter from Brighton to London on £27,200 a year will be spending 17 per cent of their salary on a monthly season ticket.

    Meanwhile, the train companies are turning over an estimated 90 per cent of their profits to shareholders, while receiving taxpayer subsidies to the tune of £1.2bn a year.

    So it’s no wonder that people are gathering at train stations around the country to protest against the latest rail fare hikes and to call for re-nationalisation of the UK’s rail industry.

    However the re-privatisation of the publicly-owned East Coast mainline – which returned profits of £1bn to the taxpayer, while improving efficiency and passenger numbers – proves the government is committed blindly to privatisation despite whatever counter arguments reality slings at it.

    As it turns out, that little thing called “reality” has some pretty heavyweight arguments on its side. We just have to turn to Europe, where predominantly state-owned rail services consistently outperform the UK’s.

    Let’s start with fares. A report by Transport for Quality of Life shows that UK rail fares are consistently higher than Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Sweden, Italy, Spain and France, and across all types of fares. These are all countries where the rail networks are over 80 per cent publicly owned.

  48. Derick fae Yell says:


    What’s actually happening

    aaaaaaand the headlines, just from the first page of google results.

    “‘New’ Scotrail trains are English hand-me-downs with 10million miles on the clock” Daily Record

    “40 Year old train destined for Scotrail catches fire” Scotsman (right enough it was in Devon)

    “Scotrail defends use of 40 year old trains after fire” STV

    etc etc etc SNP Bad on Wheels

  49. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “That Glasgow/ Edinburgh take much too long for the distance”

    The 0707 out of Queen Street via Bathgate takes 69 minutes to cover near enough 50 miles. It makes 13 stops not including Waverly. Assuming those only take 1 minute each that’s it down to 56 minutes to cover the distance – an average speed of almost 60mph, and it needs time to get up to speed and brake between every stop, never mind any extra delays or signals. It’s doing okay.

  50. heedtracker says:

    Artyhetty says:
    2 April, 2018 at 2:32 pm
    Re: Heedtracker@12.57pm

    The real issue is the old chestnut, shouldn’t start from here, to get where you want to go.

    The overriding problem for public transport in Scotland has always been no forward planning for expansion and growth.

    Its a problem tackled automatically in almost every western economy, Europe and US and ofcourse England, look at HS2. But its all certainly never been a consideration, in oil poor Scotland. Its always the catch up business, little bitties here and there.

    If you want to see how it was all non “planned,” look at how they blitzed Glasgow for their M8 to Greenock. And then it all suddenly stopped dead, for 4 decades at least.

    Or move to Aberdeen, slowly by train, Europe’s oil capital, 4+ UKOK decades farting along on one Victorian rail line, and Victorian roads and bridges ofcourse.

    SLabour dudes in charge of it all in Aberdeen and north east still got rich, ask future Sir Wullie Young and they also blame the SNP.

  51. G says:

    In fairness to Scotrail, they do seem to have listened to feedback about prices. As well as the £13 fare offer, they recently did a decent one-off discount for current season ticket holders.

  52. Martin says:

    The one scandal on the Glasgow Edinburgh line is that it is £24.70 for a peak return. This should be lowered. The other fares are fine. I have taken this train a lot and over the past year has generally taken 55 minutes- slower than 30 years ago. Bus takes about 80 minutes.

  53. chossy says:

    I drive Edinburgh to Glasgow every day, £320 a month fuel + £140 tax + £200 MOT. Door to door. One hour and a half each way almost every time. I save about £380 a year. It totally makes sense for me to drive as it’s a 30 mins walk at each end to get to train stations and work. However when I do need to get the train it’s great 55 mins nae bother 😀 I also always get a Burger king yo! yep. I’m the guy you are all jealous of eating his whopper smelling fine fine fine!!! 😛

  54. Ken500 says:

    HS2 cost £Billions with no business case. An absolute waste of money. Scottish taxpayers have to pay for. It makes journey throughout the UK take longer. Travellers to/fro Scotland have to change trains making the journey longer. A total waste of money which will always have to be subsidised with public money,

    Funds would have been better spent improving the present system, especially in the North of England and Scotland neglected for years, To make journeys throughout much quicker. Comparable to taking the plane. Cutting congested, more expensive plane journeys, throughout the UK. Comparable journeys through the UK take twice as long. Compared with services in the south. London S/E Transport totally subsidised by public money.

    In spite of the problems of lack of funding for years. Even before Devolution with £Billions being taken from Scotland. The rail service and workers provide a relatively good service. There are reductions for journeys booked in advance. Over 50, student, child included fares can be competitive prices. It is possible with special deals to get from Glasgow to London return 2 people + child for £80 (rail card). With other relative good offers.

    More Tory unionists waste of public money to favour London S/E. The Tory slush fund. Cameron, Osbourne, Carrington et al with their snouts in the trough. The British-Chinese consortium. PPI. Massive repayment details.

    OAP are not allowed to use there (bus) travel passes on the Trams. Despite funding it. The Trams are undersubscribed. More buses have to run to the airport to compromise. They are quicker. Edinburgh the westhiest city in Scotland has publicly funded transport.

  55. Ken500 says:

    Why are they starting journeys from Inverness (Inverurie) via Aberdeen to Glasgow/central belt. The trains should start the journey from Aberdeen the major city. No a scrum to get on (and off). To get a seat even though it is pre booked.

    The journey between Glasgow and Edinburgh can take 40mins. It was supposed to be improved by new provision to reduce travel time and service etc.

    Sometimes it can be better to drive to the next city, Perth or Dundee etc. Then take the train to the central belt to avoid the congestion. Including football traffic.

    The new Queensferry Crossing is great. What a magnificent achievement. Result.

    The AWPR etc is grand. What an improvement. Save time, safer journeys, less congestion. Brilliant.

  56. Archbishop of Dork says:

    Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, the 20.19 Brexit Special will be leaving Brussels shortly bound for London calling at Powergrab, Taxhaven, Diktat, Misery, Intolerance and Hubris.

  57. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    It is actually time that the authors of this and other ridiculous distortions are held publicly to account for the rubbish they write. Publicly invite them to a public meeting and give them the opportunity to justify their claims.

  58. yesindyref2 says:

    @Socrates MacSporran
    I’m with you on the times, from 20 years ago though, no idea what it’s like these days. Choose the times and it’s an hour each way from the Kingston Bridge to the far end of Prince’s Street, plus free park if you’re early enough. You need to know the back roads through Edinburgh 🙂

    In addition, I don’t think many people live above Queens’ Street Station and work on top of Waverley, oe vice versa, so there’s travel to Queens Street, and Waverley / Haymarket.

  59. dave Stewart says:

    Usually use the car for travel, I ignore the total costs of running a car because it is more convenient, I live with it.
    If goinginto Glasgow I use the park and ride from Johnstone.
    It is cheaper to park your bum on the train into the town, do 20 MPG on the motorway, pay the city parking, train £2.40 return off peak. No complaints re the trains.
    Maybe the so called journalists , If true to the words they spill out to us would and should write the banner.
    Great newspaper rip off, the Daily Recker will cost you 75p an issue, the Metro gives you the same rubbish for picking it up.
    Maybe they don’t realise that their jobs in the paper industry are coming to an end, just like the street gas lamp lighters.

  60. TheMadMurph says:

    The 19th May expiry for discount from Airdrie is more to do with the change in the timetable from winter to summer!

  61. yesindyref2 says:

    The train to Woking might not have to go through Bathgate, but it does have to go though Clapham Junction, Wimbledon and Raynes Park / New Malden, which can have delays on it, or could when I did that train admittedly a lot of years ago. Same tracks now all the same.

  62. heedtracker says:

    Ken500 says:
    2 April, 2018 at 3:48 pm
    Why are they starting journeys from Inverness (Inverurie) via Aberdeen to Glasgow/central belt. The trains should start the journey from Aberdeen the major city. No a scrum to get on (and off). To get a seat even though it is pre booked.

    Revenue. All about profit, public transport wise in Scotland. Why public transport is considered viable by the profit takers says a lot about the UK.

    Same with buses. Aberdeen’s got a big bus strike right now. Glasgow’s got awful buses, but its all about max revenue for a giant transport corp.

    Edinburgh did not sell off its public transport bus company and its run completely differently, better even?

    German railway is state owned, Deutsche Bahn. Holland rail, state owned, France’s state owned, Norway state owned etc…

    Who owns Abellio? Holland state owned. oh.

    So planet toryboy sold off Scotland’s rail network, and its now owned by a state owned corp, nearly.

    Makes sense, planet toryboy wise.

  63. Why not a massive ‘Labour Exchange’?
    All those who live in Glasgow but work in Edinburgh, change places with Edinburghers who work in Glasgow?
    I’ll get my coat.

  64. yesindyref2 says:

    @dave Stewart
    Yes, sometimes I used to drive, sometimes do the park and ride at Johnston, others do Shields Road to Glasgow if working there, Queens Street and train if Edinburgh. You get used to it and catch up on zzzzz. Lot of years ago now since last time, nearly 20. Same as you, cost for a car about the same as by train, nett. More than 30mpg, and it would be specially these days with higher mpg on newer cars.

  65. Ken500 says:

    Why on earth is Aberdeen Airport entrance on the other side of the runway from Dyce station? A 15mins train commute to the City Centre. Or more convenient northern journey. Instead of an hour long, congested £25+ taxi journey. A longer but cheaper bus journey. It should be changed yet. Move the entrance. Use the present building for admin/office buildings. Or a shuttle bus.

    More maladministration by Aberdeen City Council. Spending £300Million on a white elephant Conference Centre. With no business case.

  66. jfngw says:

    What we need is more media diversity like this

  67. paul gerard mccormack says:

    Excellent article

    Ha! I live in Blackridge (halfway between Edinbugh and Glasgow where its currently a blizzard outside) and would say that the railway is a life-saver here.

    What’s wrong with Bathgate by the way?

    Incidentally, I can also buy a ticket for the same cost as a weekly return from here to Glasgow or Edinburgh (2 weekend days never used) where i can travel return 7x any day.

    all further queries to ScotRail please.

  68. Ken500 says:

    There are more jobs in Edinburgh on the East Coast. Parliament, Capital finance etc. It gives people from Glasgow/west a reasonable commute. It is getting better. Glasgow is a good centre for shopping,shows and visitors etc. International conferences. A good commute helps the economy. The best of both cities. The tourist route is from Glasgow to Inverness (Perth, Stirling etc) then back to Edinburgh. Or visa versa. Brexit visas could be detrimental to tourism.

  69. Graeme says:

    I remember the good old days when we used to read the newspaper do the crossword then cut it up into nice neat squares to wipe our arse

    now they come preprinted with shite

  70. Highland Wifie says:

    When I used to commute here in the Highlands it was a 56 mile round trip in the car. If only there had been a train I could have taken instead!
    There’s a railway station where I live but sadly no longer one in the town I was commuting to. Thank you Dr Beeching.

  71. Northern Rock says:

    What an opportunity Independence will give Scotland to re-build our whole infrastructure.

    Our railways, roads and ports are all needing extended, modernised or completely rebuilt.

    We could build our way out of poverty. The money could be borrowed on the strength of our assets.

    America done this in the 1930s and they haven’t looked back since.

  72. jfngw says:


    You missed out car insurance, depreciation, replacing tyres, etc, plus any parking charges if anywhere central in Glasgow or Edinburgh. I believe it would cost me around £5600 annually to run my car from my house to Ed for 40 wks/yr, and I’m being generous with parking charges £10/day.

  73. heedtracker says:

    There’s a railway station where I live but sadly no longer one in the town I was commuting to. Thank you Dr Beeching.

    A lot of Edinburgh companies say specifically that they can’t offer employment if you live in Glasgow. Transport’s just not up to the level of reliability needed, especially if its timetabled job specific.

    Its insane that two wonderful cities are so badly connected and that Scots gov is playing decades behind catch-up, 2018.

    Clearly all the result of post war England only focused UK gov transport infrastructure planning and spending. Start with the M25, built with not Scots oil and gas revenues. Scotland’s not even an afterthought in Whitehall.

    Just as long as they got the oil out of Scotland, so fast, blink and you’d never see it again.

  74. mogabee says:

    Now if only they rail track companies could see their way clear to be putting a line closer to me I’d be delighted. *sigh*

  75. galamcennalath says:

    Webferret fact checker. True or mostly true …

    Tories 12%
    Labour 60%
    SNP 75%

    … a damning ‘fact’ about Tory honesty!

  76. chossy says:


    My parking costs £0 a month. Replacing tyres and all that guff comes under my £200 MOT (my MOT was £50 this year! boom!). My insurance is a small fee £150 I think, however I chose not to add all this stuff, depreciation pfff get out of town, because I get to use my car all the time to go to the shops and all sorts of things like holidays and everything. I’m sorry you have to pay so much to drive. Still save money still love my Burger King baby yeah!!! Sometimes I even get a Burger King at a petrol station during my trips up north. I like Burger King

  77. Shinty says:

    From the archives: Railways & Dr. Beeching (scroll to page 63)

  78. jfngw says:


    New tyres, brakepads, brake discs, oil change, filters, etc, for £200/year, you must be relying on an old banger to get you to work.

    Note the level of your mileage will make a huge difference to the depreciation (unless it is an old banger), it would also increase your insurance. I pay close to £300 for a pretty standard comp cover (12,000 miles) will full no claims (9 years), hard to believe £150.

  79. frogesque says:

    Re Edn/Glasgow/Edn commute

    Why does Scotland’s main M8 have such an abysmal motorway ‘service’, and I use the word advisedly, station at Harthill?

    A terrible place, rip off petrol prices, and some of the planet’s most surley staff. A hell hole that says to any foreign tourist, “fuck off we don’t want you!”

    No insult intended to worthy individual staff who are long sufferering but a week working there would have me reaching for the solace of a triple Mogadon and Buckie.

  80. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill says: 2 April, 2018 at 3:54 pm:

    “It is actually time that the authors of this and other ridiculous distortions are held publicly to account for the rubbish they write.”

    They are, The Rev Stu Campbell, and several other social media sources, do it all the time. As do many Scottish Indy political activists. However, the words, “Horses”, and, “Water”, spring instantly to mind.

    “Publicly invite them to a public meeting and give them the opportunity to justify their claims.”

    Great idea, Dave, but these people have been known to totally ignore devolved parliament invitations to come and explain themselves or even just to ask them to answer questions. Some have even defied House of Commons demands to question them.

    They are very protective of what they see as their, “Freedom of speech”, even as being so called, “Newspapers”, they are not speaking nor even writing – they type at keyboards or, mostly, just Cut & Paste typed stories by others on News Agency on-line, reports.

    I believe they mean, “Freedom of the Press”, but they usually get that wrong too.

    The natural laws of Market Forces and Supply & Demand, will slowly, perhaps too slowly, kill them off as their circulation figures indicate their deaths as sources of news media have long ago signalled their uselessness in a welter of ‘Celeb scandals and political lies results in an ever growing number of court cases

    We should at least give them the normal human dignity of a quiet and peaceful death. A simple Christian burial should suffice.

  81. Legerwood says:

    Each year the Office of Rail and Road produces an Annual Statistical Release on Rail Finance. The Release for 2016-17 was published in October 2017.

    Some interesting points from that document:
    1) Government support in 2016-17 was £4.2 billion (£4,200 million). When adjusted for inflation1 this was down 12.6% compared with 2015-16. This was mostly due to Crossrail funding ending in 2015-16. Government support peaked in 2006-07 (£7.5 billion in real terms). It has since fallen by 43.7% in real terms.

    2) The majority of government support was in direct rail support which is the grant payment to Network Rail. This was £4.1 billion in 2016-17. In real terms, this was up £32 million on the pevious year and the highest it has been since 2008-09 (£4.6 billion). Network Rail uses this money to maintain, renew and improve the network.
    [NB Network Rail has debts in 2015-16 of around £46.3 billion worth bearing in mind come independence]

    3) Since 2010-11, TOCs have paid more in premiums TO the government than they have received in central government grants. In 2016-17, government received £763m more in premiums than it paid in subsidies. This was down £71 million in real terms compared with 2015-16.

    4) Including direct support for Network Rail, TOCs received 5.1p for every passenger kilometres travelled in Great Britain in subsidies in 2016-17. This was the same as the previous year. South West Trains (2.1p per passenger km) and Virgin Trains East Coast (0.4p per passenger km) were net contributors to government in 2016-17. Arriva Trains Wales (26.3p) received the largest subsidy.
    [Scotrail received a subsidy of 20.7 p per passenger kilometre]

    5) During 2016-17 the majority of franchised passenger train companies made premium payments to government (i.e. not including share of Network Grant, revenue support/share
    etc.). The highest amount paid was by South West Trains (£662 million), followed by Govia Thameslink Railway (£296 million) and Virgin Trains East Coast (£259 million).

    ScotRail received the second highest subsidy (£247 million), though this was down 17% compared with the year before. [Something to think about if it is nationalised – where would the money for the subsidy come from]

    6) Private Investment
    A net total of £925 million was invested by private companies during 2016-17. This is a real terms increase of 13.2% on the previous year and is the highest value recorded since the time series began in 2006-07. The £767 million invested in rolling stock was the highest value recorded since the time series began.

  82. Thepnr says:


    “Something to think about if it is nationalised – where would the money for the subsidy come from”

    Why are private companies being subsidied anyway. Also what about the East Coast line when it was taken back into public hands and handed over £1B back to the public coffers after National Express proved unfit to run the rail service and Virgin now need a subsidy?

    Could it be that the private companies are taking too much out for fat cat salaries and the payment of dividends? Worth a thought though eh.

  83. ronnie anderson says:

    Robert Kerr And why shouldn’t G mention Airdrie , it always was a main station InterCity in day’s gone by ( CallyStation ) Lanark / for London train & Hallgraig St station from the West & North .

    Ur U fae Coatbrig lol.

  84. Morgatron says:

    I traveled the M8 Ek to Edinburgh for 10 years.The costs involved was atrocious new tyres every 6_8 month two services a year and approx £80 -100 quid a week on diesel. In top if that there is the astronomical parking costs not to mention limited parking bays and the over eager blue meanies. Good article Stu

  85. Indy2 says:


    A bit of a setback for Treeza’s invasion of Russia:

    “Trump proposed Putin visit Washington in March 20 phone call”, Kremlin says

    MOSCOW — President Trump proposed meeting Vladimir Putin at the White House in a March phone call, the Kremlin said Monday, a fresh revelation about a conversation that stirred controversy for its friendly tone toward the Russian leader amid mounting tensions with the West.

    Subscribe to the Post Most newsletter: Today’s most popular stories on The Washington Post

    After the March 20 phone call — in which Trump congratulated Putin for a reelection victory in a vote widely criticized as not free and fair — Trump said that the two leaders had discussed plans for a possible meeting.

    White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said Monday that “a number of potential venues, including the White House,” were discussed for the summit.

    A Kremlin aide, Yury Ushakov, disclosed the White House invitation in comments to Russian journalists on Monday. But he added that no preparations for such a meeting have taken place since the March 20 phone call, according to Russian news agencies.

    Relations between Moscow and the West have been in a free fall since the nerve agent poisoning of a former Russian double agent and his daughter in Britain March 4. British authorities have linked the attack to Russia, setting in motion tit-for-tat actions that have included expulsions of Russian diplomats from United States, the Europe Union and elsewhere.

    “If everything will be alright, I hope that the Americans will not back away from their own proposal to discuss the possibility of holding a summit,” Ushakov said, according to state news agency RIA Novosti. “When our presidents spoke on the phone, it was Trump who proposed holding the first meeting in Washington, in the White House.”

    Ushakov’s claim adds new detail to a presidential phone call that drew broad criticism last month. Trump congratulated Putin even though many international observers described Putin’s reelection victory as a sham, and despite the advice of White House advisers that he not offer congratulations.

    “As the president himself confirmed on March 20, hours after his last call with President Putin, the two had discussed a bilateral meeting in the ‘not-too-distant future’ at a number of potential venues, including the White House,” Sanders said in a statement after Ushakov’s comments. “We have nothing further to add at this time.”

    After the March 20 phone call, Trump also drew condemnation at home and abroad for failing to raise the poisoning of the former spy, Sergei Skripal, and his daughter. The Kremlin denies having anything to do with the poisoning. Skripal and his daughter Yulia remain hospitalized.

    Relations between Moscow and Washington have taken a further plunge since that March 20 phone call, as the West has sought to punish Russia for the Skripal poisoning. The United States and Russia traded diplomat expulsions and consulate closings, while U.S. allies who expelled Russian diplomats in solidarity also faced in-kind retaliation in Moscow.

    Given the worsening environment, Kremlin aide Ushakov said Monday, “it is, of course, difficult to discuss the possibility of holding a summit,” Russian news agency Interfax reported.

    “I hope that the situation will allow us to discuss this issue,” Ushakov added, referring to the planning for a Trump-Putin summit, according to Interfax. “We believe that it is rather important and necessary for both countries and for the entire international community.”

    Since Trump became president, the two have met at the Group of 20 summit in Germany last July and, briefly, at the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Vietnam in November.

  86. ronnie anderson says:

    Airdrie to Glasgow QS OAP £ 1.40 return . The only complaint I would have is that the last train from Glasgow to Edinburgh is the 11.05pm for 24hour Cities in this day & age the trains should run every couple of hours , same with the Northern Cities .

  87. Clootie says:

    I’m shocked! An SNPbad story from the Scottish Daily Mail…how unusual is that!

  88. jfngw says:


    It’s a dilemma that taking back the services into public ownership will produce. Any government will be slated for putting up prices, so to keep the prices down they would need to either increase the subsidy to keep investment up or as happened with BR you will end up travelling in ever older rolling stock.

    There is also the union issue, unions always feel more powerful when they are negotiating with governments, and transport is a powerful bargaining tool.

    I support having publicly owned services that are effectively monopolies, but the unions have to be reasonable and not see this as a bonanza for their members.

  89. heedtracker says:

    Indy2 says:
    2 April, 2018 at 5:51 pm

    A bit of a setback for Treeza’s invasion of Russia:

    Interesting that such a delightful yoonster should bring up Russia. They;ve also got a staggering public rail transport network.

  90. Crackerjack says:

    This is a quote from Breeks earlier today:

    “There is no coordinated progressive initiative for people to get behind.

    The only comfort is that support for Independence “somehow” remains solid, but I get the sense these days that such stubborn support for Independence is in spite of the SNP, not because of it.

    As time goes by, there is a growing dread that such support is as likely to fall through despair as it is to rise through optimism.

    That, I’m sorry to say, I pretty much can attribute to the SNP”

    Now i don’t agree with one word of it. But when it was posted headtracker didn’t know that it was Breeks who posted it,,

    I actually re-posted it with no name so headtracker thought I wrote it and immediately went into a torrent of abuse calling me a “Poisonous wee Git”.

    But when Breeks posted the original there was not one peep from anyone, no abuse what so ever.

    It was done by me to show the sheer hypocrisy of posters like headtracker.

    It was seemingly ok for Breeks to post this,,,BUT not me.

    And there lies your problem when trying to attract new posters, they are attacked and abused and called Trolls for no reason what so ever.

  91. ronnie anderson says:

    Any new tracks being laid in a Independent Scotland should be laid with DoubleDecker coaches in mind more especially in the Border & North & for Freight overnight cutting the use of heavy lorries on our roads .

    Kin ah be the Transport Minister please .

  92. Indy2 says:

    Heedtracker 6.02pm

    Did you insinuate that I was a Unionist???

    Why did you post such an insulting attack on my character???

    I have not made any attempt to insult you, so why did you pick me out for some kind of special treatment ?

    You could have just ignored my post, bot no, you had to post an insulting fabricated lie about me.

    As my name suggests, I am waiting, like the rest of you for IndyRef2 to happen.

    Please ignore me in the future, then it will save you the time of sending insulting posts.


  93. Crackerjack says:


    I have just witnessed this guy go after two separate posters within a couple of minutes.

    If Wings regulars are wanting to solve the problem of why threads are getting disrupted, then they should look a little closer to home, at the likes of headtracker, Mr Peffers and his side kick yesindy2.

    These guys just can’t help themselves.

    They are a shower of insulting, bad mannered creeps.

  94. heedtracker says:


    No insinuation at all. And thanks for bringing in Russia too. Go further, to Japan for example indy2 and look at how they fund and provide Japanese public transport. Thanks again indy2, a truly delightful yoonster:D

    Wow! which in Japanese is, Sugoi!

    Also indy2, isn’t it interesting how the Japanese build their HS2 style “bullet train” network so that it covers north and south Japan, in total.

    Whereas here in teamGB indy2, HS2 will start in merry olde London and end at Sheffield

    Funny that, BetterTogether wise. Scots will still have to chip for it all though, and get called Barnet moochers in the process.

  95. chossy says:


    shhh with it will ye, I work on my own car and plenty others mate so I can assure you, you can’t drive properly if you change your tyres, brake pads, and discs every year, quit with the nonsense. It’s better for me to drive no doubt. I suggest you amend your driving style or change your garage cause you’re getting pumped something rotten by your garage.

  96. heedtracker says:

    Crackerjack says:
    2 April, 2018 at 6:23 pm

    OK CJ, lets stay on topic. Here’s the Japanese HS rail network map. Why do you think the UK HS network is for England only CJ? I only ask because youre so keen on staying on topic,

    To be honest CJ, I’m not sure if Japanese HS rail does go from the south coast of Japan to the north.

    Can you tell CJ? Its a vast difference from UKOK England only HS2 though.

  97. frogesque says:

    Aye Richt!

    Disrupter open season, again!

    Since a’buddy’s off topic, snow starting to settle here. Be careful, stay safe!

  98. Crackerjack says:


    I have to ask,,,are you on drugs???

    Because your posts are way off the radar sunshine.

    The other posters on Wings must say:

    “Awe Naw,,there’s that eejit headtracker away on another senseless rant”

  99. schrodingers cat says:


  100. ian murray says:

    Enjoy your day Crackerjack

  101. Crackerjack says:


    Let it go, because if you don’t, you are going to be having about a dozen arguments all going at the same time.

    Stop beatin yourself up because you are english.

    I actually know some english people and they aren’t all bad you know.

  102. jfngw says:


    I get about 24,000 from my front tyres, 30,000 rear. So I would need to change them pretty much every year as Ed to Gw is around 20,000 working 40 wks. Obviously I would not be changing the other items as often but more regularly than normal, and this would be a cost.

    I don’t mind people using their cars because it is more convenient, I did this myself but it was about time not money. But giving the impression that normal car users will be able to use a car more cheaply than public transport between Ed and Gw does not really stand up to scrutiny. Most users cannot maintain their own cars and few, even with the skills, have the facilities.

    I didn’t actually mention how much my service was but as my car was still under warranty I did have to meet certain service level to keep it valid.

  103. Crackerjack says:

    headtracker is to blame for the disruption of this thread.

    If Wingers are fair and impartial they will be dumping the blame for this squarely at the door of headtracker.

    If not, then you are as biased as the system we are trying to free ourselves from.

  104. Street Andrew says:

    “….nobody has ever voluntarily travelled from anywhere nice to Taunton…..”

    That’s not true, Rev.

    You are lacking historical perspective. Taunton used to be quite a pleasant destination. Long time since I’ve been there so things might have changed. But you say ‘…nobody has ever…’ and I don’t accept that.

    I suppose it might pass as an English joke….(?)

  105. Bob Mack says:

    I was getting a bit confused there. Are Crackerjack and indy 2 posting replies to a previous thread ?

    This one is about transport costs I believe.

  106. ronnie anderson says:

    Shep shep cumbye some arse tae sink yer teeth intae

  107. Crackerjack says:

    Bob Mack

    When did become illegal to post O/T???

    Is this some new rule that only you know about???

    I see anyone with a fairly new name is going to get the usual bully boy treatment again today.

  108. Indy2 says:

    Bob Mack

    Are you going to pull up every that goes O/T???

    Let’s hope so, otherwise you could be accused of being biased.

  109. Ken500 says:

    Japanese pop is 100Million. One of the most densest places in the world. Relevantly small island. Pop is falling less children being born. Patriachical society.

    They need fast trains. Bullet trains. Transporting higher volume of people,

    UK pop is 62.5million pop. No business case. Not enough passengers.

    Osbourne can’t count or read a balance sheet. Dunce.

    The Tories would rather waste public money and sanction and starve people. Illegal wars causing mass migration. Killing and maiming millions.

  110. Indy2 says:

    Bob Mack,,,hurry up and tell him.

    Somebody has just posted a comment about Julian Assange.

    C’mon Bob,,tell him this is about Railways.

    You are not biased are you Bob?

  111. Robert Kerr says:


    I was born in Airdrie House.

    Baptised in Wellwynd C of S.

    Moved to the Dark Side but not Coatbridge or even Coatdyke.

  112. Crackerjack says:

    Welcoming Wings my arse.

    I have never met such a crowd of unwelcoming bullies in all my life.

    If we want to win IndyRef2 may I suggest a good number of you have a good hard look at yourselves.

    You are no better than the trash you would find on the Daily Mail or Scotsman websites.

  113. Ken500 says:

    Taunton, Devon is huge. High volume of people. Duel carriageway motorways. Congestion. The south coast has high volumes of people and motorways. Extremely busy. Not small villages.

  114. Hamish100 says:

    Oh dear bullies everywhere!!

    Grow a pair for goodness sake. If you have a position which you wish to argue your point then do so but you cannot say bully everytime someone disagrees with you or tells you to take a hike.

    As for this site it will not determine whether or not Scotland gains its independence.

    I could go on the Hootsmon or Daily Heil website but I might get bullied!! No point really in trying to convert those that are well past a lost cause. I’m listening now what’s your argument?

  115. Ken500 says:

    The UK Pop has gone up 65.5Million. Taking £Billions from Scotland. Mismanaging the economy. Scotland’s will go down with Brexit.

    Assange is being persecuted by the Westminster authorities. Exposing their criminality. The Official Secrets Act. Exposing their lies and duplicity. Psycho bastards.

  116. Bob Mack says:

    @Crackerjack + indy 2,

    Are you two a double act or something?

    If your that uncomfortable then pissed off.

  117. heedtracker says:

    You are no better than the trash you would find on the Daily Mail or Scotsman websites

    Awe! I really like seeing you, indy2, Rock etc giving it big licks btl WoS CJ, my little Scotland in Union petal.

    Not that any of you have anything remotely interesting to say, it just nice to see you all going UKOK hysterical btl WoS.

    PS crackerjack,

    give my regards to Scotland in Union crackpot of the millennium Councilor Scot Arthur too, great to see he’s embedding himself nicely into SLabour Embro.

  118. Bob Mack says:

    @Crackerjack+ indy 2.

    Whit a pair of fannits. We welcome debate on here,not shite like you contribute. Away and straighten your petticoats.

  119. Dorothy Devine says:

    Bob Mack , fannits???

    I presume you meant the old Irn Bru advert? If you did I agree!

  120. Gary says:

    So, looking at the article, and some of the comments, Scotrail prices are EITHER a) Cheaper OR b)Cheaper, but only just AND they perform better. Bloody SNP! Making the trains run well!!!

  121. Legerwood says:

    Thepnr says:
    2 April, 2018 at 5:37 pm

    “”Why are private companies being subsidied anyway. Also what about the East Coast line when it was taken back into public hands and handed over £1B back to the public coffers after National Express proved unfit to run the rail service and Virgin now need a subsidy?

    Could it be that the private companies are taking too much out for fat cat salaries and the payment of dividends? Worth a thought though eh.””

    If you look at the figures it is the smaller, less economically viable companies that are receiving a subsidy – a social service charge to provide the service on routes that are not economically viable. Furthermore that subsidy is paid for out of the money paid TO the Government by the majority of TOCs.

    Over the past seven years the money paid TO the Government as per their franchise contracts has been enough to cover the subsidies paid to operators such as Scotrail AND give the Government a net profit.

    In 2015-16 The TOCs paid TO Government £3 bn while Gov paid out £2.4 bn. In 2016-17 The figures were £3.2 bn and £2.5 bn respectively. So the Government is not out of pocket. It is Network Rail, the nationalised part of the service, that is the subsidy junkie.

    With regard to the East Coast line. Virgin/Stagecoach were making payments TO the Government as per their contract but they were running at a loss. Partly because they had overbid – contracted to pay £3.3bn over term of contract – but partly because of delays to promised infrastructure upgrades and delays to delivery of new rolling stock which would have allowed them to increase capacity and frequency.

    If you look into the profits, dividends etc of the companies they may not be all that myth would have us believe.

    It is also worth pointing out that more people are employed on the railways than did under BR. Drivers on some routes are earning £67,000 plus. Scotrail it is £45,000 once qualified.

    If you want to check out the finances for yourself search for UK Rail industry financial information 2016-17

  122. Bob Mack says:

    @Dorothy Devine,
    Yep. They should stop being a pair of can’ts ( smiley thing.)

  123. schrodingers cat says:

    just read pete wisharts right to reply in iscot.

    i agree completely with him

  124. Daisy Walker says:

    Good article, thanks Rev. Nice to see the SNP doing well in the Trust stakes too,
    mind you the tories (red and blue) set the bar very low don’t they.

    The upgrade to the main line between Edinburgh and Glasgow, a major investment project, has meant lots and lots of jobs, softened the blow of Austerity in Scotland. Well done the SNP for that too.

    Nice to see them running the railways well too.

    The tories in England are the only fascists in history who can’t get the trains to run on time.

    So, what was it Margo said again, if we manage to get one person to change their vote to Yes, we’re home dry. Not long now.

    Hello Mr Peffers, Hope yir keeping well.

    In a gentle way we can shake this world. Yes we can.

  125. Legerwood says:

    jfngw @ 6.01

    If you look at the figures that I quoted you will see that the subsidy, or direct rail grant, paid by the government has almost halved in the last 10 years or so. The vast bulk of the subsidy paid goes to Network Rail, the nationalised part of the network.

    Subsidies are paid to some of the train operating companies but the money paid is more than offset by the money paid TO the Government by the majority of the TOCs as per their contract agreements leaving the Government with an overall net Gain.

    There has also been an increasing investment in rolling stock which was never seen under the nationalised BR.

    The rail unions have been flexing their muscles recently but nothing like the extent, or frequency, of the strikes during the 1970s-early 80s.

  126. Bill not Ben says:

    I was reading an item over 30 years ago, the main point that was made was that no railway system in the world made a profit at that time.
    Now i don’t know if that’s still the case today, but i allways wondered why they never moved most of the goods on our roads to the trains, I mean, lets say your a company that moves goods every day between London and Glasgow, surely that could be done overnight while the rail links are not being used for passengers.
    And one of the benefits we would not have our roads full of heavy vehicles going up and down to england every day causing delays and ruining the roads, maybe the UK government are quite happy for this to continue as the road tax brings in a heavy amount of income to the treasury….. Makes you wonder what is really going on. more traffic on the road, more money for central government to accumulate.

  127. heedtracker says:

    “The tories in England are the only fascists in history who can’t get the trains to run on time.”

    Bugger! Wish I’d thought of that.

    I probably will:D

  128. jfngw says:


    I wasn’t questioning your figures, in fact all things being equal the subsidy would reduce as there is no profits. My point is if the railway is government owned the operator, pressure by opposition parties is to not increase fares, just how politics works. The government, no matter which party, is then under pressure so holds fares down or risks losing votes.

    My comment was really aimed at those that believe nationalisation will result in cheap travel, it can but the costs have to be met somewhere. If they want cheap travel then they have to put up with subsidies or ageing rolling stock in the long run.

    Maybe I should have posted this directly rather than as a reply, I thought it was connected to your comment in a way but probably I was diverging too far.

  129. Davie Oga says:

    Scotrail is pretty average and somewhat expensive in European terms, but absolutely excellent compared to English rail services. Didnt realize that Scotgov had put so much investment into the network. Hopefully fares will come down a bit so that people from all social demographics are able to increase their cultural and economic opportunities.

  130. Davie Oga says:

    The comments have been a tedious read the past couple of days with all the carping and accusations. How about some ideas to convert the capital L Losers who would vote against their own nations independence. These are not normal people. Creativity and vision is required.

  131. heedtracker says:

    My comment was really aimed at those that believe nationalisation will result in cheap travel, it can but the costs have to be met somewhere. If they want cheap travel then they have to put up with subsidies or ageing rolling stock in the long run.

    Public transport does not have to be about cheap travel. It can become a public sector service just like the rest of them. There are a whole host of reasons to have a public transport that is not based on profit taking. Getting people out of cars, getting hgv transport off our roads, getting cleaner air, getting green energy used directly in the economy.

    Why do we not bat an eyelid at the cost of road construction, yet balk at the idea of public transport being not for profit?

    AWPR around Aberdeen that costs about £1.5 bn for 20 miles.

    Its a by-pass round Aberdeen that’s at least 40 years late, but think about this amount of money for just 20 miles of dual carriageway. Its a lot of money to spend per mile, let alone the environmental costs.

  132. Crackerjack says:

    Bob Mack

    Why are you calling me a Fanny?

    All I done was post a comment.

    Is that the way to welcome new posters onto Wings.

    Why do you act like a big hard man when the whole world knows that you and headtracker are as hard as a lump of shit.

    Cut out the abusive posts snowflake.

  133. Bob Mack says:


    Shut it .

  134. Sania says:

    @Dave Stewart

    Return to Glasgow from Johnstone £4.80 maybe you are quoting the single fare of £2.40

  135. Crackerjack says:


    “Shut it”

    There you go again Big Bad Bob.

    Bullying new posters is not a good idea

  136. Clootie says:

    …I think I’ll wait until the 77th knock off for the night!

  137. Bob Mack says:


    Who cares what you think? About anything.

  138. heedtracker says:

    Bob Mack says:
    2 April, 2018 at 9:48 pm

    Who cares what you think? About anything.

    Oh poor CJ. I’ll play with you CJ.

    So CJ, tell us who is actually the biggest upperclass twit inbred idiot in your Scotland in Union clown show, so far?

    Its ok if you want to include youself CJ. Also, how comes Rock’s been off taken btl WoS duties this evening GJ. Do you all have to scrub the latrines with your toothbrush if you crash and burn like this btl?

    Same query to indy2, too:D

  139. Thepnr says:

    Not everything is always as straightforward as it might appear at first glance with regard to the subsidising of the railway network.

    This post is probably much too long for many and only really of interest if you want to know more about the arguements for and against privatisation or nationalisation of the railways in the UK.

    Please feel free to scroll past if that’s not your thing.

    Some of the problems of the privatised rail system are well known. Perhaps best known is the systematic gaming of the train operating franchise system. Franchisees – as in the catastrophic case of the East Coast Line – can walk away from the franchise without serious penalties when the ludicrously unreal projections that won the contract in the first place turned out to be fantasies.

    Less known, and systematically documented in the CRESC report, is the extent to which the train operators have been able to manipulate the licensing system so that they effectively pay dividends to shareholders from direct public subsidy; between 1997 and 2012 on the West Coast Mainline, Virgin Trains paid out a total of £500 million in dividends and received a direct subsidy of £2.5 billion.

    Worse still, the report highlights the large, hidden and indirect subsidies to train operating companies which have completely wrecked the balance sheet of the quasi-public Network Rail company that provides infrastructure. Train operating company profits are politically constructed through a hidden subsidy of low track access charges levied by Network Rail.

    These have fallen from £3.2 billion at the start of privatisation to £1.6 billion today, despite the increased demands on the infrastructure made by increased train and passenger numbers: in the age of privatisation the state is keeping the trains running.

    The end result is a shocking and largely undiscussed increase in public liabilities. Network Rail (NR) is not only failing to recoup the real cost of operating the infrastructure but also spending an extra £5 billion a year on capital investment

    in improving the network. This is largely financed by issuing private bonds which are publicly guaranteed. Network Rail’s position is increasingly unsustainable because it is burdened with huge debts. The cost of servicing that debt is now greater than spending on track maintenance: in 2003 NR spent more than £1.5 billion on maintenance and £256 million on debt interest; in 2012 NR spent £968 million on maintenance and over £1.5 billion on debt interest.

    The financial consequences for the taxpayer are considerable because repayment of principal is publicly guaranteed and Network Rail has an accumulated debt which now stands at £30 billion. The consequences of this kind of financial regime for the physical infrastructure, on which the promise of an efficient rail system crucially rests, are economically catastrophic. The consequences of the accumulated debt burden for the public purse are equally politically dire because rail is going to need a bailout.

    I am unable to post the link to the article but the full research can be downloaded at the following link:

  140. Crackerjack says:

    Big Bad Bob Mack

    Are you going to the Wings night out in Glenrothes?

    Should be a good night out..

    See you there!!!

    We can discuss Railways and prices and things like that

  141. geeo says:

    “Cut out the abusive posts”…

    Says the abusive poster..!!

    Irony alert..!

    It really is funny to watch the faux outrage from obvious trolls when exposed.

    You are not being bullied, Crackerjack, YOU are the bully, and quite rightly, people on here are just NOT having it.

    Even if you WERE an actual indy supporter (no chance you are btw) you would STILL be getting told to bolt by decent folk on here, because NO bullies are tolerated on here, not indy supporters, not britnats , nor trolls.

    I bet you do not read this and amend your aggressive/disruptive behaviour ?

    Thus proving beyond doubt what you are.

    Well ?

  142. Daisy Walker says:

    There can be no bullying if your remember the words to the song….

    No one can hurt me without my say

    And there can be no trolling, if we remember the next verse, which goes

    You don’t walk through my head with dirty feet.

    And all it takes to be a fully paid up, qualified member of the human race is this…

    I think, and I love and I am.

    In a gentle way we can shake this world, in a gentle way we can shake this world.

    Yes we can, yes we can, yes we can. With our heads, with our hearts, with our words, with our actions.

    Cutting wit and sarcasm are useful too. Peace and love to all.

  143. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Nobody can type that you don’t get an education btl on WOS.

    “All I done was post a comment.”

    No, no, no!

    All I DID was post a comment.

    No need for a ‘thank you’.

  144. Crackerjack says:


    You keep this nonsense going day in day out. It doesn’t matter who it is, you will find an argument in there somewhere.

    I bet the other Wingers just love you.

    Ya screwball. And I will ask you again,,

    Are you on drugs snowflake???

  145. Sandy says:


  146. Bob Mack says:


    Wouldn’t want to spoil the night out for the wingers so if you would like to meet me just put your DM on off topic and we can sort something out about a discussion on any topic u you like. Love Bob.

  147. Thepnr says:

    What happens after the government spend (taxpayer) £45 Billion or is it £60 Billion now on HS2?

    Do they run it or do they privitise it and sell it off?

    I wonder if they do choose to sell it off whether the public will ever get the money back they invested in it, maybe I’m wrong and hedge funds and others like Branson and Virgin trains are beating down the door of No 10 to invest their own cash.

  148. geeo says:


    You must have missed the bit where i responded to Breeks and told him he was over reacting a tad ?

    I even explained to him WHY i thought that.

    Did you miss that as well ?

    Context is everything, Breeks is passionate about independence and is clearly fustrated by HIS personal perspective on how it is being managed, but NOBODY doubts his allegience to the independence cause.

    Now, YOU on the other hand…..abusive..personal attacks (focussed on ONE poster in particular)…never post on topic…!!!

    You were not attacked for quoting Breeks, and pretending it was your comments to elicit a response, you were attacked for WHY you were doing it, for being an insidious creep.

    As i already said, context is everything.

  149. geeo says:


    If i recall correctly, Carrillion were biggest contractor on HS2.

    Quite where that leaves that particular white elephant is unclear.

    Good excuse to scrap it perhaps.

  150. Rock says:

    “the SNP – who have very limited control over the fare policies of Abellio (the Dutch state-owned company who run ScotRail)”

    “But how do the perpetually-maligned ScotRail compare with train services elsewhere in the UK?”

    The SNP minority government has nothing to do with it, yet Abellio has cheaper fares than train companies down south.

    How and why?

  151. Daisy Walker says:

    How to get the no voters over to Yes.

    Have a wee read of site. His latest 2 essays are very informative.

    There is NOTHING good about Brexit, its so bad even the biased Media (which is supressing like mad, all the bad stuff) has nothing good to put in the papers.

    We now own (legitimately) Project Fear, and Project Yes, and people have no trouble believing the bad news, it travels fast, and it lingers. We are now the safe port in the storm, and that is how we pitch it.

    Britain Isn’t Working – YES NOW x

  152. ronnie anderson says:

    It must hurt tae keep getting yer heid rammed intae the buffers Valerie Singelton
    Heres ah wee song fur ye

  153. Bob Mack says:

    Abelio has new rolling stock coming on stream this year as well.

  154. Norway is the most expensive per mile for rail at 58p per mile,

    next is England at 52p per mile,

    France 25p,

    Germany 16p,

    Spain 14p,

    Italy 11p,

    Russia, 10p

    Turkey, 5p

    Ukraine 1p,

    one thing UK doesn`t have is toll roads,so mainland Europe subsidizes rail at the expense of road,

    don`t know what Norway`s problem is.

  155. Rock says:

    Shouldn’t this brilliant WOS article be front page headline news in the “independence supporting” The National?

    What is the purpose of an “independence supporting” newspaper if it doesn’t have the opposite blaring headlines as the genuinely anti independence newspapers?

  156. Davie Oga says:

    Fare increases are lower due to Scotgov inserting a clause in the Abellio contract limiting fare rises to the retail price index minus %1.

  157. Bill not Ben says:

    Its a funny old world so it is.

    I see families that don’t speak to each other, and they have forgotten why.
    I see friends that don’t speak to each other, and they have forgotten why.
    my own mother never spoke to her sister for two years, and my mother was in the wrong, but she went in the huff because her sister tried to help her be a better person.
    Her sister’s door was allways open to her,but she was to stubborn to let it pass, was it worth it, it certainly was not, they lost two years of friendship and love, and the funny thing was, they where allways together before and after, be nice to each other, you know it makes sense

  158. Dan Huil says:

    @Daisy Walker 10:33pm

    Thanks for the post about Never visited it before. Must admit I was a wee bit surprised reading Richard North’s articles; I always thought he was an ardent brexiteer. His “Armageddon” piece and his article on Ireland/Brexit were interesting.

    It has to be Yes.

  159. Thepnr says:

    @Scot Finlayson

    “don`t know what Norway`s problem is.”

    Might be mountains and hills! Buiding a railway line in Norway from East to West or even along the coast N to S must be hugely expensive with the terrain they have.

    I’ve driven from Stavanger to Lervik all along the West coast, fantastic roads but miles of tunnels, many many miles of tunnels and I think at least 3 ferries.

    Not cheap to put that infrastructure in and anyway the average Norwegian can afford it, at least better than the average Brit could. Mind you it’s still possible to travel from Oslo to Gothenburg for less than £30 one way, not too bad for more than 180 miles.

  160. Rock says:

    Davie Oga says:
    2 April, 2018 at 10:38 pm

    “Fare increases are lower due to Scotgov inserting a clause in the Abellio contract limiting fare rises to the retail price index minus %1.”

    Does the Scottish government have the powers to do that, or is this fake news?

    Rev. Stuart Campbell:

    “the SNP – who have very limited control over the fare policies of Abellio (the Dutch state-owned company who run ScotRail)”

  161. Crackerjack says:

    I try to read the posts on here, but in the background is the fear that the abusive minority of Wings posters prefer to attack me, rather than contribute to this forum.

    Is headtracker and bob mack still about. Those two are really aggressive.

    I thought the Rev protected you against such abuses.

  162. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Thepnr.

    RE: Norway’s coastline…

    Slarti Bartfast has a lot to answer for, iye?

  163. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Dan Huil,

    hello Dan, I was introduced to by a certain NANA, who is just brilliant by the way.

    Prf Richard North – the author – is very much a brexiteer, but hats off to him, he (like our own Rev) is not afraid of Facts. His site has done all the Impact Assessments, and a detailed description of what EFTA and EEA, and 3rd World Status actually mean.

    He still wants out, but he’s pulling his hair out about the complete ineptitude from WM.

    All of which is rather useful when talking to No Voters or former Brexiteers. I point them to his site very regularly.

    That’s me for the nicht. Best wishes to all.

  164. Indy2 says:


    I agree with you 100%.

    headtracker should be renamed headcase.

    He is pure dead mental.

    I bet you he is out of jail on licence and wears an ankle tag.

  165. Fireproofjim says:

    As a follower and occasional poster on wings for the last five years I don’t think I have ever seen such a tedious and childish bunch of squabbling children clogging up the site.
    You know who you are. Remember this site is dedicated to helping the cause of Scottish independence. It is not a site for stroking your ego and bandying insults.

  166. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    “I try to read the posts on here, but in the background is the fear that the abusive minority of Wings posters prefer to attack me”

    Education again. You NEVER have a comma before “but”.

    No need for thanks.

  167. Crackerjack says:

    Fireproofjim 11.04pm

    “I have ever seen such a tedious and childish bunch of squabbling children clogging up the site”

    I couldn’t agree more with you.

    headtracker never lets up. he is constantly hounding new posters accusing them of being Unionists.

    Also Peffers yesindy2 bob mack

    A bitter little clan of bullies.

    I personally think they are on drugs. There is a want with them.


  168. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    If anyone is looking for a pejorative term for me, I am content to accept this:-

  169. Bob Mack says:

    The twa craws are still up I see. You guys army or Orange ?

    Definitely one or the other,

  170. Legerwood says:

    Thepnr @ 10.06pm

    An article from 2013 that is A response, of sorts, to the CRESC article from which you quote

    A more recent overview of the situation from the Guardian/Observer is fairly balanced

    Note: the China Hong Kong MTR company mentioned in the article is likely to run Crossrail. Does this indicate that HS2 will be a private franchise too? HS2 is a white elephant. Money would be better spent on improving and extending network over UK as a whole.

    The situation is complex and careful selection of figures can sway the argument in either direction.

    Personally I feel that re-nationalisation of the railways is a distraction which does not address the issues facing the railways, for example, need for greater capacity, greater frequency and greater coverage of the UK by extension of the network. In fact it is a way of avoiding the decisions which are ones for Government.

    Renationalisation as franchises come to an end, as some propose, will prolong the whole process and delay for at least a decade or more the decisions needed to address the issues such as capacity, frequency etc.

    If, for example, you want to increase capacity then double decker trains might be the answer but that is likely to have consequences for infrastructure such as platforms, bridges, track etc. Increasing the frequency of trains by laying more tracks on busy routes but that means buying land to build the track and altering stations to take more tracks and trains.

    All of these require political decisions by Government and renationalisation or status quo do not address them.

  171. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    It’s a bit of a shame that Boulder is being sidelined by the other two stooges.

  172. Davie Oga says:

    Does the Scottish government have the powers to do that, or is this fake news?

    It’s in the franchise contract with Bellio. Fare increases are directly determined by inflation. In the context of privatisation, the fare increases aren’t excessive.

  173. Thepnr says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon

    O/T but has railways in it 🙂

    The furthest north I had even been was in Norway a small town called Bodo which is just North of the Artic Circle. It was january and absolutely freezing.

    The roads were leterally hard packed ice but no one seemed to bother and it didn’t stop the cars travelling who all by law had studded tyres.

    The railway part of the story comes from WWII when over half the 6000 homes of the town were destroyed by the Luftwaffe prior to the German invasion of Norway. The local Norwegians despised the invaders, many were conscripted and used as slave labour to build a railway so that supplies could be more easily moved from the South rather than by sea in winter when it could freeze.

    Anyway, I was there for work visiting a factory that makes large winches for the Offshore industry, not your run of the mill winch but ones weighing over 40 Tonnes including the wire rope. One of the things I most admire about Norway is how all their Offshore supply industry is spread around the entire country.

    You can find huge yards building structures in the most unlikely places, check my earlier post Lervik.

    Anyway, the interesting part for me was that this engineering factory had a reception much like here where you had to sign the visitors book. On the wall behind the receptionist was a glass case musch like you’ll find in a Scottish hotel with a stuffed Salmon in it.

    The difference was that this one had a machine gun in it?

    It was a pretty crude looking machine gun but there was no doubting what it was. Anyway during my stay there I got the story of the machine gun. It was from WWII and had been made in the factory for the Norwegian resistance by the workers themselves.

    they made hundreds of these guns at their seperate machines which all screwed together then they were smuggled out to the resistence in the Bodo area. Mightily impressive I thought.

  174. Legerwood says:

    Rock @ 10.53pm

    Re Scottish Government and regulation of Rail fares
    This may help

  175. yesindyref2 says:

    Aware of the UK’s image abroad the British Army takes steps to be enemy friendly with its new mechanised infantry vehicle battle markings.

  176. heedtracker says:

    HS2 is a white elephant. Money would be better spent on improving and extending network over UK as a whole.”

    Its not if you’re from Sheffield and Leeds. Those cities love the whole HS2 thing very much indeed.

    HS2 is not really about trains though. Almost every other first world country’s got HS rail except teamGB. So there’s that, UKOK national prestige wise.

    More important, its all a very big multiplier spend, for England only. Although they lie about how much their Scotland region will also benefit, tartan blankies in First Class perhaps.

    England’s spent so much on its public infrastructure since the first M1 spade was er, struck, its almost impossible to calculate it all. All of it has focused directly into London, one of the richest regions in the world today.

    It’s not by chance and it’s never enough.

  177. Thepnr says:


    The article I quoted from was from 2017 and by one of the authors from the 2013 research. I realise we’re on different sides over this topic but I do agree that there are problems regarding investment and subsidy that need to be addressed.

    I’ll simply ask this though, would the NHS be better run if it was in private ownership, or would the NHS be better off remaining under public control?

    My own personal view is that all essential services that are basically monopolies should remain in public hands and for me that includes the railways.

  178. Crackerjack says:

    What would we do without the Rev,

    He is so essential in our fight for Independence

  179. heedtracker says:

    Multipliers and why we love them, in the England bit of teamGB, although the yoon hated Borders reopened line gets a mention.

    High Speed 2 (HS2) is another important example of how infrastructure can make a profound economic impact. A recent report by KPMG estimates that the overall benefits to the economy of HS2 could be over £53bn.

    Similarly, London is witnessing an infrastructure renaissance, with significant projects such as Crossrail already well underway, and the £563M capacity upgrade at Bank Underground station set to transform the passenger experience.”

    Starting at,

    “Earlier this month the government issued the new National Infrastructure Plan, containing information on more than £377bn of planned public and private sector infrastructure investment, alongside the Infrastructure Pipeline.”

  180. heedtracker says:

    Crackerjack says:
    2 April, 2018 at 11:37 pm
    What would we do without the Rev,

    He is so essential in our fight for Independence

    Awe CJ, you’re really a lovely little SiU scrote aren’t you. Are we turning you CJ?

  181. Indy2 says:

    Tomorrow’s National front page:

  182. Rock says:

    Davie Oga and Legerwood,

    “Under the terms of the Franchise Agreement, the annual regulated rail fares increase in Scotland is set by ScotRail.”

    Which suggests that it is fake news to say that the Scottish government has inserted a clause limiting fare increases.

    Davie Oga says:
    2 April, 2018 at 10:38 pm

    “Fare increases are lower due to Scotgov inserting a clause in the Abellio contract limiting fare rises to the retail price index minus %1.”

    Rev. Stuart Campbell:

    “the SNP – who have very limited control over the fare policies of Abellio (the Dutch state-owned company who run ScotRail)”

  183. Indy2 says:

    Tomorrow’s National Twitter pages:

  184. Robert Peffers says:

    @Daisy Walker says: 2 April, 2018 at 8:52 pm:

    “Good article, thanks Rev. Nice to see the SNP doing well in the Trust stakes too”

    I’d say that is part of the plan, Daisy Walker.

    “The upgrade to the main line between Edinburgh and Glasgow, a major investment project, has meant lots and lots of jobs, softened the blow of Austerity in Scotland. Well done the SNP for that too.”

    Yes, I agree and that’s part of the plan as well.

    “Nice to see them running the railways well too.”

    Aye! Another part of the plan.

    “So, what was it Margo said again, if we manage to get one person to change their vote to Yes, we’re home dry. Not long now.”

    Margo did say that but it was, “if we each change just one person each”.

    I knew Margo quite well. By a clash of dates my late wife and I had to combine our wedding reception with our Local SNP Branch dance It was no hardship as it was a small branch and the members were all our friends.

    So the Guests of Honour were Margo and George Reid, and of course we two newly weds ourselves. (we had already had the band and the room in the local hotel booked), and so got landed with running the branch dance.

    “Hello Mr Peffers, Hope yir keeping well.”

    The appropriate reply is, “As well as can be expected”. I’m just keeping rather quiet ATM. I believe it is an error to interrupt your de-tractors when they are about to hang themselves with the rope you gave them more than enough of.

    In a gentle way we can shake this world. Yes we can.”

    I believe you are right, DW, and really the SNP, and now the wider YES movement, have been shaking up this Old World for quite a while now.

    That shaking is getting bigger and bigger all the time. The final shake, though, will only come a long time after we shake ourselves free of the Westminster Establishment.

    It was wee Scotland, after all, that led Europe into, “The Enlightenment”.

    François-Marie Arouet, (Voltaire), the famous French Enlightenment writer, said of Scotland, “It is to Scotland that we must look for our ideas of civilisation.”

    Something the English Establishment has never forgiven Voltaire and Scotland for having done.

    Anyway, now it is time for Scotland to get her own back for that lack of forgiveness.

  185. Indy2 says:

    Micheal Fry write in the National:

  186. yesindyref2 says:

    Ah! Sorted. BBC Scotland tells Lies, that’s who. Pretend to be useful.

  187. Kilmeny says:

    Did a quick fact check on the Sunday Mail article on rail fares in France and Italy compared to Scotland (P2 Sunday). Etampes to Paris is on the RER and the price of £66 quoted in the Mail for a monthly season ticket is very close to the 67 euros quoted on the RER website for a cornet of 10 tickets.

    Civita Catalana is given as 27 miles from Rome whereas it is about 40 miles which would make the comparison even worse with Scotland but a return journey costs 8 euros so it is hard to see a monthly season ticket being the equivalent of about 9 journeys. The regionals in Italy are indeed very cheap though – but the trains take well over an hour for the 40 mile journey with over a dozen stops.

  188. Crackerjack says:

    May’s latest Irish Border Plan:

    Irish Government plays down May’s plan to create ‘customs partnership’ arrangement on border issue

    The Irish Government has played down British Government plans to create a “customs partership” arrangement to solve the Irish border issue post Brexit.

    British Prime Minister Theresa May is stepping up plans to tackle the Irish border question in Brexit talks through an audacious customs scheme once described as “magical thinking” in Brussels.

    But as quickly as it has been floated, business leaders here and in Britain have said it is “unworkable”.

    The scheme, which will be discussed with EU officials this month, would see the UK act as the external frontier for the EU, collecting tariffs and carrying out other checks on imports, but it could take many years to introduce.

    A new ministerial group on Northern Ireland, including chancellor Philip Hammond, Cabinet Office minister David Lidington and Northern Ireland secretary Karen Bradley has been set up to oversee planning for the Irish border.

    The “customs partnership” plan is one of two customs options being proposed by Mrs May, but the only one that would remove the need for customs checks at the Irish border. However, border checks would be required if Britain departed from EU regulatory standards.

    The government has pledged to prevent a hard land border in Northern Ireland or a border in the Irish Sea after Brexit.

    But the technological challenges involved in the “customs partnerships” are challenging, and trade experts say the scheme would take years to introduce, suggesting that Britain and the EU would have to remain aligned on customs for some time after 2021, the end of the transition deal.

    Britain is promoting the “customs partnership” plan as the best way to avoid disruption at the ports, and the Irish border, since the UK would simply mirror the EU’s requirements for imports from the rest of the world.

    In response, an Irish Government spokeswoman said the Taoiseach has consistently said his preferred solution to the border would be one based on a satisfactory overall EU-UK relationship.

    Any solution will have to deliver on the commitment to avoid a hard border and protect north/south cooperation, while simultaneously protecting the EU’s single market and customs union. It will also need to be spelt out in legal detail, she said in a statement to the Irish Examiner.

    “It is noted that advocates of a customs partnership acknowledge it would take a long time to negotiate and prepare for implementation. Pending agreement on the detail of any such solution, the backstop option of full regulatory alignment will have to be included in the Withdrawal Agreement,” the statement concluded.

    Some importers are sceptical about Mrs May’s current favoured option of a customs partnership using futuristic technology to track goods.

    “That option is really crazy, just not achievable, its sole purpose is to provide a political solution to the Irish issue,” said one business figure.

    Jon Thompson, permanent secretary at HM Revenue & Customs, said last autumn that setting up an entirely new system that would be “best in class”, like Singapore, would take five to seven years.

    Meanwhile, Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald has called on the Government to stand up to the British Conservative party on the convening of the British-Irish intergovernmental conference in Northern Ireland.

    Mr Varadkar and Mr Coveney have expressed their support for the establishment of such a forum, but London has so far resisted the requests.

    Ms McDonald said the delay in doing so is proving to be “very damaging” and “not helpful”.

    She added: “It is unwise for Dublin to allow the Tories to stall things to this extent and I really hope that when we return from the Easter recess that we see a new determination within Government to make that intergovernmental conference happen and to be quite insistent that we have a plan.”

    Under an intergovernmental conference, the Government can have an input into non-devolved matters relating to the North.

    Mr Coveney has raised the issue of the conference with Ms Bradley, but the British government has so far been non-committal.

    A spokesman for the Tánaiste said the matter would be discussed with the Northern Secretary at a meeting after the Easter recess.

  189. Robert Peffers says:

    @Clootie says: 2 April, 2018 at 9:44 pm:

    “…I think I’ll wait until the 77th knock off for the night!”

    Good idea, Clootie, isn’t it strange, though, that almost all these, “New Posters”, on Wings”, arrive around the same time and are anti-SNP and the ant-SG. Strange, too, that all of them have the same style, use almost identical arguments and all use abusive language while bullying long established Wingers. It is, of course, just a co-incidence.

  190. Daisy Walker says:

    Mr Peffers, sleep well, take care, be posting to you in new day.

    PS l

    ets aim for 2, For Margo, for your son, for all our loved ones lost. 2 it is.

    Aye we can and now we must.

  191. Robert Peffers says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon says: 2 April, 2018 at 10:08 pm:

    “Nobody can type that you don’t get an education btl on WOS.
    “All I done was post a comment.”
    No, no, no!
    All I DID was post a comment.
    No need for a ‘thank you’.”

    Yes, Brian. Same style, same phrases and same modus operandi.

  192. Crackerjack says:

    Russia’s foreign minister claims British intelligence may have poisoned Sergei Skripal

    RUSSIA was accused of a “ridiculous” disinformation campaign yesterday after its foreign minister suggested British intelligence may have poisoned former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter.

    Sergei Lavrov claimed MI5 may have been involved in the Salisbury nerve agent attack which, he said, was “beneficial” to the British Government by distracting attention from Brexit.

    Senior sources in the UK last night dismissed the accusation as “ridiculous”.

    Accusing the UK of “putting decency aside” by blaming Moscow, Mr Lavrov found it “outrageous” that Britain had failed to provide access to Yulia Skripal, 33, since it emerged that her condition was improving.

    His comments came as the Russian Embassy in London issued “questions without answer” about the case – including whether the UK ever produced Novichok.

    Britain insists that Russian state involvement is the only plausible explanation, and has led a worldwide reaction involving the expulsion of more than 100 diplomats.

    Sergei Lavrov claimed MI5 may have been involved in the Salisbury nerve agent attack
    This can be beneficial to the British Government which found itself in an inconvenient situation after failing to fulfil its promises to voters on Brexit conditions

    But Mr Lavrov said: “Our Western partners, and I first of all refer to Great Britain, the United States and some other countries, which are blindly guided by them, put all decency aside and resort to bold lies and fake news.

    “Our responses to all of this are calm and weighted as we keep insisting that all accusations and allegations must be backed with facts.”

    Insisting Moscow “could not have a motive” to attack Mr Skripal – who was “pardoned” at the time of a spy swap – Mr Lavrov said there were other explanations.

    “This may be rather advantageous for Britain’s special services, which are known for their ability to act with a licence to kill,” he said.

    “This can be also beneficial to the British Government which found itself in an inconvenient situation after failing to fulfil its promises to voters on Brexit conditions.”

    Britain insists Russian state involvement is the only plausible explanation for the attack
    Russia’s top diplomat added: “Russia has no relation to the Skripals’ poisoning, but we are interested in establishing the truth about our citizens’ fate.”

    Mr Lavrov hoped that Mr Skripal would recover like his daughter, adding: “This is outrageous that our multiple requests demanding access to our citizens have been rejected or have remained unanswered.”

    Russian state media’s English language website Sputnik argued that “the British authorities have much more vested interest in seeing Skripal poisoned than the Kremlin ever would”.

    Suggested motives for the attack include smearing Russia, damaging Vladimir Putin, or even to distract from a grooming scandal in Telford.

  193. cearc says:

    Not only are the fares on the Nederlandse trains cheaper but employees commuting costs are paid for the employer on top of salary.

    So the average commuting cost is nothing.

  194. yesindyref2 says:

    They’re very amateur. I feel so degraded they don’t even send in the B team but the first term dropouts.

  195. Thepnr says:

    @geoo @yesindyref2

    Not worth wasting a breath on. Attention seekers like the boy who cried wolf always end up having their own regrets.

    I’d say that posters who have Wings best interests at heart as well as the Independence cause in general would be best served by ignoring such attention seeking.

    There is plenty to discuss, just carry on as if these disrupters were not even on the thread and post things that are useful and hopefully informative. Funny is good too 🙂

  196. Liz g says:

    geoo @ 12.31
    Up to you obviously….
    But it might be an idea to make it clear that you are talking about your debating skill’s!
    Thing’s can get twisted,and it might be the Rev that the “authorities” try to make responsible for it!
    Jist sayin…..

  197. Davie Oga says:

    Rock: Which suggests that it is fake news to say that the Scottish government has inserted a clause limiting fare increases.

    No it isnt. It’s in schedule 5.1.1 on page 296 of the contract between Scottish Ministers and Abellio

  198. yesindyref2 says:

    I know. But being Easter there’s a few circuses around and with the kids being way too old now, you do kind of miss seeing the clowns. This is at least some compensation 🙂

  199. geeo says:

    Of course liz-g…my face to face debating skills are super intimidating…if that makes you happier..!!

  200. Liz g says:

    geoo @ 2.07
    Definitely makes me happier
    and glad your on our side….
    Thanks for taking my comments the right way..

  201. Liz g says:

    If ye ever get to debate, I’ll chair it …
    Make it for tea time any Friday..
    We can start by sayin..

    It’s Friday,
    It’s Five to Five….it’s….

    The winner of course will get a pencil…what colour would ye like?

  202. Cactus says:

    All aboard… Crianlarich to Fort William:

    Arriving at Platform 2.

    Enjoy your ride. 🙂

  203. twathater says:

    Liz g 2.24am love the humour Liz. geeo I know it’s frustrating but don’t let them grind ye

  204. yesindyref2 says:

    That’s great Cactus. I’d thought of doing that just before the millenium when I was looking for ways to earn a living, put it on a DVD and sell it on line, different routes. Think I got the idea from a PC mag freebie Railroad Tycoon. Something else came up instead. Don’t know if it would have sold. Never will now!

  205. Dorothy Devine says:

    Cactus, thanks for the uplifting trip – driven it but never taken the train and must do it before I pop my clogs so that I can take in the scenery with ease.

    OT Went to Kelburn Country Park yesterday with my son in law and grandsons. Great day Mad hatters T party , Easter egg hunt , duck race and detecting who stole the Queen of Hearts tarts.

    With the exception of the weather it was a grand day out and I wold recommend the trip to all and sundry – just avoid the gift shop!

  206. Dorothy Devine says:

    Pedant alert ,I can spell ‘would’ !

  207. jockmcx says:

    A message to the new plonkers or plonker trying to annoy readers,

    possibly from a very…very young Robert Peffers.(unconfirmed!)

  208. sinky says:

    Chris Deerin in Herald attacking Cybernats and others for criticising the wonderful BBC

  209. Ken500 says:

    There was a special trip. The special steam rail trip. Belle? From Aberdeen to Oban. To enjoy. A day away. Quite special. People love train/journeys.

  210. Hamish100 says:

    Chris who!?

  211. Legerwood says:

    Thepnr @ 11.34pm

    I would never ever consider privatizing the NHS in any shape or form.

    Don’t think however that can be used as blanket approval for all public ownership schemes. Case by case analysis.

    The Railways, however, I am more ambivalent about them. The way they were privatised, the model used, has thrown up lots of problems but having used both the nationalised BR and the privatised railways as a commuter I prefer the service that I got with the latter.

    I am not convinced that those who keep calling for renationalisation, particularly politicians, have any clear idea of what form that process should take or how to implement it. Until they do then stick with what we have and improve the financial model used for the franchises.

    Anyway, good discussion, lots of info aired, and agree to disagree I hope.
    Thank you

  212. ScottieDog says:

    The herald is becoming somewhat comical. They wrote a piece about the dangers of John Boulton coming back to the us government but the language they use is in keeping with the man himself.
    Cue Mr Leask, who accuses anyone disagreeing with him of being a Russian bot!

    P.s, everyone, one the subject of trolls. The best idea is to post more as it dilutes their presence.

    Pps, good article by George kerevan in National yesterday arguing for a large pay rise for teachers (im Not a teacher). Last paragraph is the most interesting where it talks about ‘fiscal money’ as a way of pumping more money into the economy. It was an idea from yanis varoufakis to recapitalise Greece without going cap in hand to the troika. I suggested the idea to the SNP 18 months ago on its policy site (not that I’m saying it went from there. I’m not trying to take credit).

    Anyway keep a lookout for kerevans future articles in the natioral.

  213. Breeks says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    2 April, 2018 at 11:28 pm
    Aware of the UK’s image abroad the British Army takes steps to be enemy friendly with its new mechanised infantry vehicle battle markings…

    That’s not Pantone 500. Clearly nothing to do with us…

  214. Dorothy Devine says:

    yesindyref2, because Breeks commented I hunted down your original – that’ll fairly hide away nicely in the desert!

  215. Breeks says:

    Dorothy Devine says:
    3 April, 2018 at 8:49 am
    yesindyref2, because Breeks commented I hunted down your original – that’ll fairly hide away nicely in the desert!

    The desert? Oh thank heavens. I thought that was the new urban camouflage for ScotlandInUnion staff cars.

  216. Kilmeny says:

    Have had time to dig further through the RER site and have found that a monthly ticket can indeed be had for about 80 – 90 Euros. Can’t fathom how anyone would want to pay 67 Euros for a 10 ticket carnet. This is however a metro type system into which the SNCF lines fit and the journey time from Etampes to central Paris is 1hr 40 mins, which is not too hot for 30 miles.

    Still can’t find anything on period passes for Rome regionals.

  217. Ken500 says:

    No Trident, illegal wars or tax evasion. Might improve the railways. Instead of bombing the world to bits. Still £Billions going out of Scotland to fund Westminster unionist incompetence, criminality and ignorance.

    Vote SNP/SNP . Vote for Independence.

    Johnston Foreign Secretary, Williamson Defence Secretary. Can anyone fathom it. Dirty tricks.

    Leask is living in the past. Not embracing change. Some old, same old regurgitated nonsense. Old habits die hard.

  218. Kilmeny says:

    Have located tariff levels for monthly tickets in Rome area and indeed they are actually quite cheap, the highest for longest distance zones being in the order of 100 euros. Again, slow local commuter services.

    It would remain to be seen whether a possible future Labour Scottish government would bring in monthly season tickets Edinburgh – Glasgow for £80 on a nationalised network. I think that these two possibilities are equally unlikely. It would also be worth pointing out that the Italian rail system (of which I am very fond !) is a notorious money pit.

  219. ronnie anderson says:

    Nice to see we’re no shunted intae ah siding , aw the bestest Wingers .

  220. yesindyref2 says:

    @Breeks / Dorothy Devine
    Thought Wings could do with a bit more humour. Mind you, with the SiU circus in town sending in its clowns AND the Keystone Cops, we’re getting a bit of humour overload right now. Their filthy rich backers are witlessly unwittngly being very kind to us.

  221. Crackerjack says:

    Good Morning fellow Wingers.

  222. yesindyref2 says:

    Timing is everything 😁 😂 😇 😎

  223. orri says:

    The thing about Airdrie, or any other point on either line is that if you live in Glasgow you might find that it’s more economical to buy two season tickets rater than one.

    A Zone card to access the bus and underground. A train from somewhere to Edinburgh.

    Same might apply if you don’t live within walking distance of a job in Glasgow.

  224. Crackerjack says:

    FAO “geeo”

    You posted a rather tasty post late last night regarding me. I don’t know if you had a little too much easter fare or not.

    But threatening physical violence will not be tolerated by myself or the owner of this website, Rev Stu.

    I have sent a copy of your post to the police and also to Rev Stu.

    I am hoping the Rev will act on this ASAP. If he is a responsible and law abiding Blog owner, then I know he will do the right thing.

    As I said last night, there are a minority of bullies on here who over step the line on far too many occasions.

    Have a nice day Y’all

  225. David Neill says:

    I suppose for someone with a low intellect, an invitation to debate could be construed as violence.

  226. Bob Mack says:


    Good idea. I could be thinking of doing similar with your post to me last night.trying to intimidate me . Naughty person. Your a bad bad boy.

  227. Dawn in NL says:

    Did anyone see the article in the sun (I hasten to add that I don’t read it, I saw it in a feed list on the Google site). Anyway, heading was Meghan is distant relative of Scottish warlord, Robert the Bruce. How’s that for respect? Would they call Edward a warlord?

  228. Liz g says:

    David Neil @ 10.42
    Aye,if thinking melts yer brain it’s no exactly somebody else’s fault….
    But the post seems to be gone….a good thing really, as it could have been taken either way!

    Anyhoo I’m shutting up aboot it noo….don’t want to make it anymore of an issue… Otherwise we will have the Lollypop Gang V the Lullaby League aw day…..

  229. ronnie anderson says:

    so’s people ah spoke to soon Valery Singleton’s still with us an greeting tae the Heedy ( naw no that wan ) this wan the Rev & the Polis tae .

    Those Trolls have a purpose & thats to bring this WoS site into disrepute SCROLL ON BY DON’T WAIT AT THE CORNER .

    geeo Let us know if you get ah knock at the door LoL, chist don’t expect the Rev .

  230. louis.b.argyll says:

    Humour? The joker, being played by the elephant in the room, is the trick of UK division-ism.

    We laugh together when we can laugh at ourselves, something the Tories can never relate to.

    Better ‘to see ourselves as others see us’ instead of focussing on the fake ‘stiff upper lip’.

  231. louis.b.argyll says:

    Kilmeny, relax my friend,

    There will never be a Labour Scottish Government, we’ll make sure of that.

  232. Iain mhor says:

    @briandoonthetoon 11:10pm
    I’m not convinced that grammatical statement is correct in all instances, but I don’t want to start a pedant war. I think it’s one of those dogmas dependent on which teacher was thrashing it into you.

  233. Flower of Scotland says:

    Hi Ronnie, spoke to you at HOOP. I’m an old Winger and always read Stu,s stuff.

    I think I can point out the trolls very quickly and just ignore them. Folk spend far too much time arguing with them. It’s wasted oxygen.

    Wings is still as popular as ever. I know lots of folk who read it but never comment, folk that have been Wingers since before 2014. We can see an increase in trolls since the Rev had his very successful crowdfunder. These negative comments don’t impress anyone. I laugh at their comments because they’re not very clever.

  234. Fred says:

    @ Cactus, brilliant trip, happy memories of the Morgan’s who ran the Corrour Station bunkhouse & himsel’s ongoing feud with their only neighbour in all that vast wilderness, the warden at Corrour Hostel, Mrs Morgan delivered his mail on the quad. “I’m what they cry the wildlife aboot here!” In those days the driver of the Friday night train, if asked nicely, would slow the train after Corrour & let the guys jump off at the head of Loch Treig, ruckies, cairy-oots, fishing rods n dugs all careering doon the embankment. Afternoon train back from Corrour on the Sunday & off at Rannoch station for pies & Eunice’s famous chocolate cake before refreshments at the hotel then catching the last train to Queen Street. “Taxi!”

    Sadly, what we now have is an imported railway with rolling-stock made abroad, the rails no longer from Workington & wheels, tyres & axles from god knows where?

  235. louis.b.argyll says:

    Dawn in NL,
    ‘How’s that for respect? Would they call Edward a warlord?’

    No but I will. The Hammer, Edward I was by any standards, a murderous, abusive, elitist, cleptomaniac, warlord-King.

    His descendants now merely form part of the bloodline of the British Establishment.

  236. Legerwood says:

    Fred @ 11.56am

    I think you will find that there has been a bit of a resurgence in rolling stock manufacturing in the UK in recent years. Sure some of the companies are from overseas, Hitachi for example, but they have built manufacturing plants in the UK.

    Good overview here:

  237. louis.b.argyll says:

    Was digging around some of the nasties from English history, below..from 2012, relating to the last of Edward I’s ruling descendants. Another reason for England’s Brexit?

    From the Daily Mail, lol, 2012.

    ‘ French city of Angers in Loire Valley provided some of the greatest monarchs in British history.

    When Edward Plantagenet was murdered in Tower of London in 1499 house’s legitimate male line came to an end.

    City believes it is owed an apology – and 513 years’ worth of compensation.

    Sum would amount to billions in today’s currency, but city is prepared to accept the coronation jewels. ‘

  238. chasanderson200 says:

    Just a wee reminder about the forthcoming WINGS NIGHT OUT this coming Saturday evening. Venue is the Otters Head in Woodside. Glenrothes, and kicks off approx 7pm. Free food, Scottish themed quiz, sparkling wit and repartee, wee fundraising raffle, and easy transport links from Dundee, St Andrews, East Neuk, Kirkcaldy, Edinburgh, Dunfermline, Glasgow, and Perth.

    Combine all that with excellent beer….ahhhh….. what more could a body want?

    Full details over on the Off Topic page.


  239. geeo says:


    Only one side to be on for the sane. As sally said when she met harry…”YES YES YES…YEESSS YEEESSS”!!!!

    As for the crackerjack clown contacting police, rubbish, i took the liberty of phoning them earlier and according to them they have received ZERO complaints.

    I read them my post, and they said there was nothing amiss.

    Like most of his ilk, all talk.

  240. Liz g says:

    geeo @ 2.56
    Glad tae hear it geeo….I didn’t think he/she/it really would anyway.
    It’s just that, despite this site being “all aboot the debate”…. twisters will twist,and given that social media is being targeted as nearly (but not quite) as bad as the SNP.
    We need to watch our own and each other’s backs,for anything that could be taken the wrong way!

    Anyhoo…… Onwards …..

  241. orri says:

    Kind of puzzles me why anyone who claims to have the best interests of this site at heart would call in the police. Given it’s run on retroactive moderation then any clown might say an abusive comment had been deleted which could then lead to a demand that any records or equipment pertinent to it be surrendered for examination. Might even cause it to be taken down temporarily.

  242. geeo says:

    Nobody phoned the police orri.

    All talk nae troosers, as expected.

    After posting utter vitriolic pish against heedtracker for days, crackerjackass had an 2 comments on issues of the day (but not on topic) and suddenly everyone will forget you are clearly a trolling wac-job.

    He will probably run away to tell mummy about me for this post…still sookin on mummies teats.

  243. yesindyref2 says:

    If it’s from SiU, the rich donors should ask for their money back. Not fit for purpose. And if it was from the 77th, God help the security of the UK, we’re doomed.

  244. geeo says:

    The rich SiU donors probably fail completely to check what their cash is being spent/wasted on.

    Unless of course they actually believe they are getting value for money…!!

    Weird enough bunch for that to be true.

  245. Orri says:


    Careful or you’ll be accused of deliberate gender misatribution by insisting those you think of as trolls are generally male.

  246. Rock says:

    Davie Oga,

    “No it isnt. It’s in schedule 5.1.1 on page 296 of the contract between Scottish Ministers and Abellio”

    If you say so.

    But as the Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “the SNP – who have very limited control over the fare policies of Abellio (the Dutch state-owned company who run ScotRail)”

    So I still not understand why and how a company like Abellio can offer better value in Scotland than in England.

  247. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Are you complaining because rail fares are cheaper in Scotland, compared to Engand?

    We need to understand your mode of thinking.

  248. Md Jhon says:

    I think you should ask for it back

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