The surrender of power
On 18 September 2014, Scotland had control over its future. Scots could choose their own path, or continue to have decisions imposed upon them. Those of us supporting the former came close but not close enough. As a result, Scotland exited the EU against its will, is once more under the heel of a right-wing government and now finds its Parliament under attack from London.
Yet the dream has never died and demands for the right to choose our own destiny are growing. Scotland needs to be in the position it held on 18 September 2014, when power lay with its people. It’s their democratic right to decide, so why would you ever cede that power?
Yet tragically that’s what’s being done.
The decision by the current SNP leadership that a referendum could only be held under the auspices of a Section 30 order moved power from Scotland’s democratically elected representatives to a Tory government that Scots had comprehensively rejected. Irrespective of how great the mandate in Scotland or how perverse the objections may be from Westminster, a vote couldn’t proceed without their say so.
That’s simply unacceptable, and thankfully is being challenged by some in court and by many more across the Yes movement. But other actions are occurring that are again in danger of ceding the power that the people of Scotland should possess.
Firstly, there’s the failure to prepare a Plan B for the coming election. It appears that there’s neither to be a debate at conference, as Angus McNeill and Chris McEleny have sought, nor even scenarios gamed, as Joanna Cherry has suggested.
The result of that is simply to continue with what’s dubbed the Boris Veto. No matter how successful the SNP are in the Holyrood election, then it’s not their right but his whim that’ll decide. Power that should rest with the Scottish people’s elected representatives has instead been given to those undermining the Scottish Parliament and damaging Scottish society and its economy.
Of course, it’s assumed by the SNP leadership that Boris will blink or be shamed, or somehow forced to concede a vote. Maybe he will, but what if he doesn’t?
In the latter case the challenges that Scotland and the Scots have endured so far will be like nothing as the calamitous effects of Brexit and the imposition of super-austerity take hold. What then? Yet more outrage to be expressed, yet another National Assembly to be convened? That’ll scare him? Meanwhile the fear is that hope and faith in the possibility of change is already extinguished in many.
But suppose the Tories do accede to a referendum? It’s certainly a possibility, if we believe comments from Michael Gove and John Major. But if a referendum’s only to proceed under a S30 order, then as with whether there’s to be one at all, power over its timing and criteria are ceded to Westminster.
Those of us who’ve been in the movement long before 2014 and even before the establishment of the Scottish Parliament 21 years ago well remember the chicanery of 1979 and the 40% rule – a referendum that the SNP were obliged to fight knowing that the dead were already in the No camp.
Who’s to say that such mendacious trickery won’t be imposed once again? Both Gove and Major referred to conditions significantly different to those the Scottish people agreed to participate under in 2014, and designed to ensure defeat from the outset.
The idea that there’ll be a referendum in autumn 2021 seems as fanciful as when it was argued one would take place this year. The rhetoric denies the reality, which is why it’s rumored that SNP special advisors have already been reining in its mention.
With no mandate to proceed without a Section 30, then discussions are needed. Even if willing, the practicalities are that by the time a new Scottish Government is formed and negotiations begin the ability to contest a referendum in the remaining seven months of the year will have passed. That’s even before discussions with the Electoral Commission are entered. Westminster will decide when they’re prepared to allow one. Power that rightly belongs to the Scottish people will again have been ceded.
If the Tories say “you can have it but only on these terms”, then just as in 1979 the pressure to contest despite the foreknowledge of entrapment would be severe, if not irresistible. “You’ve got your referendum, now stop whimpering about the small print and get on with it”, will be the cry.
The SNP response is to shelter behind existing legislation and past precedent. But when has that ever proved a deterrent to this Tory government, let alone when their precious union’s at stake?
Scotland’s future is always the Scottish people’s to decide. That is a principle we must never surrender.
Well said, Kenny. Keep holding their feet to the fire. I’m glad you’re my MP
Obviously everyone here will agree with the point of the article, but who here can realistically see a path to reforming the SNP? The current leadership has overseen structural corruption and institutional barriers to change. It is not going to happen anytime soon if ever. And those of us who want independence this generation can’t wait on attempts to reform the SNP (which will probably be like pissing in the wind anyway)
We need a new independence movement. Smarter and more politically astute people then me need to form a new party. I would give my unreserved backing to the right one. We need a much more gung ho independence strategy. Hell, maybe even Kenny could get on board.
The SNP are not the answer to the independence cause any more and never will be again
I agree Kenny but you elide that members of your party sneered at Martin Keetings telling him without apparent irony that he ‘had no standing’. Scotgov also intervened to try and prevent the case being heard. As Martin has pointed out it is now Schrodinger’s party in the case, both in and out at the same time. The Advocate is still in and of course he also, still shamefully, sits in cabinet. So the govt withdrawl is a fig leaf.
Fortunately our judges are made of stern stuff so the case will be heard early next month.
The question is, if Martin wins and the orginal S30 is ruled to still be in operation is Scotgov ready to move? WM will also move, to plug that legal loophole. Those of us out here in the wider Yes movement and in the ISP of which I’m an active member will all be watching.
Expect a strong reaction if Scotgov lets the opportunity won by plucky Martin go begging. Like Marshall deciding not to try and save that shot last night.
Tell your colleagues to be prepared. Covid may mandate against chapping doors but we can do street politics with stalls and activities (socially distanced and with PPE). We can run a campaign, if the SNP will not or cannot lead it the wider Yes campaign is ready to run if the starting gun is fired.
Martin Keetings may provide the ammunition to load the starting gun with. All Scotgov has to do is pull the trigger. It will have to be a quick draw. Can they do it? Will they do it?
If Scotgov bottles it we may have to change the words of the national song to a lament:
We’re too feart to be that nation again.
New leadership team required at the SNP, however I am sure that will be resisted, a new party is therefore required and only one new party with the aim only of independence.
This is now very urgent I hope some competent patriot politicians step up.
I am very sad watching what the SNP has become.
Completely agree, but how do we force party leaders to change their minds. Is the problem fear of losing, or is independence no longer a priority? In 7 weeks time, it may be too late.
Kenny, the Party has lost its way and when it’s own Mps can’t argue for change you are onto a loser. Why dont the likes of yourself Chris, Angus Joanne form a new Party in time for next year’s Holyrood election as that is what is needed with Big names to front a real party for Independence and not 1 that is leading Scotland to oblivion. The Party has become like Scottish Labour and its a lost cause and 1 thing for definite is that the Indy vote will be a once in a generation vote as most of us will be dead before seeing another
Do the people at the top of the SNP even realise that if they don’t deliver indy now or soon they will be finished because who is going to vote for them again? They have squandered so much and look impotent at the moment.
Where’s the fighting talk?
Why do they not constantly challenge the assertion that we don’t have the right to self determination to the point where the BBC confidently and repeatedly says we need Westminsters permission?
They’ve wasted years not challenging them in the courts whether Scottish, supreme or international.
Hear hear
I agree with every word.
Those holding back independence must go.
Unpopular opinion alert. Giving these charlatans at the top of the SNP another mandate will not improve our chances. They have to be got rid of, or no progress is possible.
I won’t be voting SNP in May. Nor did I, the last two times I’ve been asked to vote, breaking an unbroken sequence since the second 1974 election.
I’ve written this one off, there may be a possibility the next time, but I may not live to see it. But we won’t advance without a root and branch clear out of the SNP, or a new party.
Yesterday there was an Edinburgh Council By-election in the ward in which I live. Yesterday was also the the first time in many years I did not vote for the SNP candidate. Unless the SNP leadership moves forward towards Independence, it won’t be the last time I don’t vote for them.
Excellent article Kenny and very well said. More power to your elbow! It’s just so sad that so many of your colleagues are engaged in a Faustian pact with Westminster which undermines the very principle of Scottish sovereignty.
Oh Power of Scotland, when will we see your might again…
@ Col, ‘Do the people at the top of the SNP even realise that if they don’t deliver indy now or soon they will be finished because who is going to vote for them again?’
I think there are some of those at the top who have had their families threatened – who are fully aware, and just doing what they can to survive (lucratively, it has to be said).
Others at the top have been promised indemnity – Sturgeons and Smiths – lucrative posts on the world stage for their ‘loyalty’ to the cause.
And then there are the others – useful fools, with minority agenda’s – recruited in, to do a New Labour on the SNP. And they don’t have a clue.
All the others (me included) are somewhere on the scale of hoping against hope that the fix is not in, and that our eyes really do betray us.
One thing is very definite. Holyrood election has got to be plebiscite for Indy.
The Toom Tabbard must be extricated.
Always good to see your valued opinion on here, Kenny.
Unfortunately, like many others, and growing by the minute, I no longer have faith in this SNP. Never thought it would come to this, but as we crowed at Labour, they’ll now be smirking at us when we say; We never left the SNP, the SNP left us.
I’ve seen and read enough, from this blog and from others, to come to the logical conclusion that the leadership of this Party is both corrupt and not remotely interested in independence. Why would I ever vote for that? Really, why?
Like many, I think the SNP have taken Scotland as far as *they* want Scotland to go and like many I also believe it’s time to rip it up and start again.
I don’t think it’s fanciful to desire that yourself and independence-minded Scots get together to form a new Party of Independence. With the greatest of respect, and some deserved thanks, to Muscleguy and others within the ISP*, we need big-hitters for this new Party, with perhaps an amalgamation with those progressives in the ISP. Why don’t you people get talking?
*I will categorically not be voting SNP next May, I will however be voting for an independence Party for the List vote – probably the ISP.
Thanks again.
How’s the new independence party coming along ?
The essential difference between asking Westminster’s permission (or indeed mere acquiesence) for a Section 30 agreement, and holding a referendum ourselves all boils down to one word…. Sovereignty.
Westminster cannot wrestle constitutional sovereignty from the Scottish people, and neither can Holyrood, but only Holyrood should be impeached and flung from office in disgrace for trying.
Who are ‘the men in grey suits’ of Scottish politics?
Are there any, or do they all work in London?
It’s quite clear that NS and her husband have no intention of cooperating with the harassment inquiry let alone quitting. If ‘the men in grey suits’ are better informed than the rest of us, and even we can see the way things are going, isn’t it just a matter of time before they’ll be having a quiet word with the Murrells? And if that is the case, why not just hoof the pair of them now and be done with it?
Can Kenny shed any light on the rumour circulating a few weeks ago (something to do with NEC shenanigans) that certain SNP MPs were so scunnered and enraged by what’s going on that they were seriously considering a return to Scotland with a view to taking up temporary residence in some of the Holyrood offices?
When putsch comes to shove an aw that…
“Astonished says:
13 November, 2020 at 1:08 pm
I agree with every word.
Those holding back independence must go.”
First things first.
List msp’s two terms maximum, by law.
Time for all independence supporting SNP MPs and MSPs (just a wee while ago that would’ve been a crazy thing to write) to get out and form a new party. The SNP is lost to the careerists and power trippers.
Thanks Kenny – all good points.
The SNP house is on fire though, even if I can be bothered to go to a polling booth in May, it will be for the second vote only.
I don’t think I can hold my nose to vote SNP, just to spite Unionists.
The SNP are making no sense on Independence and their other policies worry the living daylight out of me.
No English MP wants to be responsible for giving Scotland away, it’s easy to make noises when you’re not the decision maker.
Bojo is just the latest longshanks, and another dithering fool will follow in his footsteps.
That’s the Norm for London – Keep Scotland English.
Good reminder to us Kenny, thank you.
I have to say, when Union Jack proclaimed “Generation” followed by 25 or even 40 years, that in itself should have been strongly rejected by the SNP
The SNP should have called a press conference, yes maybe no one would arrive, but feck me!
Get a statement with facts out there, with a strong rebuttal.Pandemic or not these “Union” statements need to be challenge. These catastrophic failures to challenge by the SNP leaves them to be absorbed by the less informed public as a fact!
WTF is Keith Brown doing ?
BTW, why is it Martin Keatings that has to challenge the BBC over Laura K, “Sec 30 is the law” reporting?
I am trying to bite my lip & continue to support SNP, but the endless failings under NS …….I will definitely vote for another Indy Party in the list.
Been SNP/ Indy since the 60s
My 5 siblings are similarly minded.
Will the SNP get a decent quota of votes in HR21?
There is only 1 option, set the date for Indy Ref2 with NO OTHER POLICY.
There will be no need for any SNP policies except IndyRef2 because after the Ref …..it’s a different country.
Loose the Ref then it’s game over …..to WM
Will the SNP step forward & do the right thing & get the YES Community behind them?
A hae ma doots, a hae ma doots…………………then…………yer as good as fecked!
I don’t know about anyone else , Kenny should never have had to raise this question , it should be a definite given and the sort of thing that shouldn’t have to be raised it’s like walking , your eyes are obviously open ( that’s assuming you are not blind ) no one should have to spend time thinking about what should be the Default setting for everyone who supports Independence ,
Legalities of words go unnoticed, and the meanings confused and blended. But there is a big difference between these two.
A citizens assembly, ie , one constructed and decided by government.
A people’s assembly, ie, one decided by the people.
We give away our power as sovereign Scots in many subtle little ways
Here is another way we give away power as a sovereign people and do not realise,regardless of wether covid is real or not, that is not the argument here,
When the Scottish government or the uk government tell you what to do, or how to behave during the covid pandemic under pain of any kind of penalty. And we the Scottish people except this, We have subliminal been coerced into a position of government rules over people.
However if any of the two governments say it is only advisory and there is no penalty fixed to it, then we are sovereign
And we decide individually as people that it might be in our own best interests to wash our hands,, or send our children to school, visit our families.etc.
We are sovereign, the people,
We speak and think utter nonsense like children needing mummies and daddies guidance to follow, or the penalty is a smacked bottom and your pocket money taken from you. This is government holding and acting sovereign over people,
It is subtle, it is perverse and dangerous when we are ignorant to law. You/we succeed your/our sovereignty by default to a government, by deceitful means of governments pretending they have the ultimate last say, and our best interests at heart, it comes as a disguise,
This is what is being done when the Scottish government implies [WE] the people of Scotland can only be independent through them, and with the permission of the Westminster in England,
Who says we have to ignore The treaty of Arbroath, The claim of right, or the broken treaty of the union, who says we cannot act in and as a sovereign people in Scotland.
We are grown up, and sensible enough to know that sovereignty can and should be precious,
If we are fined or punished by a big bad government wolf, for going a walk to grandmas house to have a chat with her while individually and knowingly keeping her safe, and we are accepting those rules given by them, then you or I are not sovereign.
If we follow their guidelines free from retribution then we are sovereign.
Not a chance Boris will allow another referendum vote, with the polls showing at the present time, also with his handler (Cummings) going to be replace at the end of the year and reports saying his mistress now has a say on who his new handler will be just shows total disregard for democratic rights
The way I understand the things, our problems are grounded in the NEC’s parochialism and ambivalence towards the rule-of-law. So here’s a look at “Human Rights and Rule of Law: What’s The Relationship”, as the NEC simply doesn’t get to define Scotland’s democracy without being called out as the PM’s little helpers.
https://escholarship.org/content/qt5fk0j20q/qt5fk0j20q.pdf?t=lnq673
Ever since I started hanging out here I’ve been trying to understand the current “situation”. The differences between “gradualist” and “fundamentalist”. Whether this is a class struggle between the comfy middle classes for whom the status quo is probably a little less scary and the working class who see Tories as a clear and present danger and having seen the devastation caused by Thatcher. The Rev. and others want to foster a sense of urgency hence all the negative press while the optimists and the SNP leadership seem intent on suppressing that.
These are all tensions and to be expected in such a broad movement but one thing is starting to stand out is that there seems to be complete and utter paralysis. Even blow-hard Blackford is starting to look like an activist in that at least his lips are moving.
So why are we here? It seems that the leadership/government have created an environment where everybody has to be on message 24 x 7 that nobody has the desire, will or ability to say anything. Kenny MacAskill is the only dissenting voice (I know that’s not true but we don’t hear much from anybody else). Even Joana Cherry, Joan McAlpine, et al seem to be biding their time.
The Westminster lions (don’t laugh) are tearing the carcass of sovereignty to pieces and all the SNP wildebeest are standing around, tut-tutting and saying “Oh my, that’s a shame”.
Why the lack of movement? I’d expect even the most timid gradualist to be saying “You know, if we were independent then we could…” but there’s not even that. Just, capitulation.
Ian Brotherhood, Funnily enough my brother wrote a song a few years ago aimed at the American market, called “MEN IN GREY SUITS” its on YouTube, garrisonhill 1. He has included photos, Very appropriate to us all at this moment in time.
Ian Brotherhood, Funnily enough my brother wrote a song a few years ago aimed at the American market, called “MEN IN GREY SUITS” its on YouTube, under, garrisonhill 1. He has included photos, Very appropriate to us all at this moment in time.
“Scotland’s future is always the Scottish people’s to decide. That is a principle we must never surrender.”
So who was it, from the SNP, who only this week gave Gove and Co another opportunity to humiliate us, lecture about the participation importance of “their” organisations such as the electoral commission etc? Who gave them that opportunity *again* to say no?
I am sick and tired of every one of you, that includes you. Writing articles for publication on WOS isn’t exactly going to rectify the problems we’re facing. Is it beyond all you older heads to get together and sort the internal problems once and for all? After-all, as they say, all it takes for evil to flourish is for good folk to do nothing.
I’m constantly reading the snp has lots of really good hard working members yet all i’m seeing day after day is Stuart Campbell exposing all the shenanigans that are going on. Is it not about time yous all got together and made it clear to Sturgeon her destruction of our democracy & so-called sovereignty is unacceptable etc.
Then if she fails to readjust her thinking accordingly then all of you leave and start a party focused on indy only. Farage can start parties overnight i’m sure you all have the ability to do something similar. It really has gone way beyond a joke what Sturgeon & Co are doing. She’s had the best ever chances at indy compared to any other snp leader in history and she’s hiding behind Covid.
I’m not really one for conspiracy theories but last night whilst watching ‘The Forecaster’ i began feeling strongly that Sturgeon has been got at. What they have on her i do not know but her actions, or lack of them, leaves me with no other conclusion. Sturgeon has been got at, must be, surely?
And btw, if i remember correctly, Goldman Sachs predicted a Yes vote back in 2014. They’re not the sort of folk to get many major decisions wrong. Wonder what happened in 2014? Just thought i’d throw that in for the minnows to nibble. LOL!
Sorry jittery finger, didn’t mean to post twice,
Having been outside the governing mainstream for so long, the SNP’s long period in govt has led to the point where the outlook of the party’s top people has been absorbed into the corrupt shambles that has passed itself off as competent governance in Scotland for too long. Councils, health boards, law firms, accountants, the police, education, trade unions…all riddled with corrupt, greedy little fuckers on the make and on the take. Almost every service concentrated in Glasgow and Edinburgh. Hardly any oversight or accountability. In an independent Scotland that has to change or it will be just be ‘meet the new boss, same as the old boss’.
Having said all that…still feeling pretty good about last night!
Well said Kenny. Can you not persuade Alex to come back and figurehead a new serious pro Indy List Party? Let’s get them into the main opposition and then hold the SNP’s feet to the fire to use an old Alex saying. I think Wales is doing a better job of pursuing Independence right now. Things have to change and we need a plan B.
If I’m too scunnered with them to vote SNP with my first vote, what do people recommend?
(Actually I’ll likely feel compelled to vote SNP here cos the tories are close second, but I’d still like to hear what folk think).
“Why the lack of movement?”
I’d suggest the NEC is simply not a body that is capable of supporting Scotland’s democracy. They do appear have an agenda though, but it is not compatible with a respect for human rights or the rule-of-law. So here’s a look at “RE-THINKING SELF-DETERMINATION: A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF CURRENT INTERNATIONAL LAW THEORIES”. As all Scots are agents of international law, which Westminster and the NEC are determined to deny.
https://escholarship.org/content/qt5fk0j20q/qt5fk0j20q.pdf?t=lnq673
IF SNP do not fix this, if no date for Indy 2 is forthcoming..then what? All this bleating & demanding is not coming with an alternative or a solution? Do we storm Holyrood or Westminster? I have no idea how we get there, but get shouted down for asking. GRA is on hold, prob NOT going to happen, but they are not coming out & saying it..they want to keep the pink pound on side & not let them drift to Half baked Harvies’ party! All very well threatening SNP with loss of seats, next May- we also lose our Parly if they are not the party in power next year. You can forget about any Indy vote ever again as we will hand our Parly back to London! Someone tell me how we get Indy if not via SNP? I am nit a member of any party-SNP have always been too middle class orientated for me. I’m not giving my vote to inexperienced one causers either! So, what is the way forward?
A referendum is the Plan B
The rules of democratic government in the UK requires a majority at Westminster to take independence – That is Plan A
It is the muddy waters of attempting to reframe Holyrood, the Scottish Parliament and MSP’s, as the representatives of the Scottish people within the UK, while maintaining MP’s and acknowledging Westminsters Pariamentary Sovereignty, which has caused such a horrendous situation.
Independence taken within the rules estabished by Westminster, is Independence via a majority of MP’s on that ticket and entirely valid.
However such a ‘flawed’ UK democratic process may be viewed by Scotland, it automatically brings with it the right to hold a referendum. There is no longer a UK Pariamentary or Government veto.
A subsequent confirmatory referendum can be held under a purely Independent Scottish process without imposed caveats.
It may well be that such a referendum is again rejected and Scotland shows a wish to re-enter a Union with the rUK – so be it. Perhaps the terms of such a re-Union can be better framed this time.
However a positive outcome of a confirmatory referendum, will be a declaration, via two seperate democratic processes, that Scotland wishes to be Independent – who internationally, or otherwise, would not acknowledge it?
If a referendum really is to be the ‘Gold Standard’ and reflection of the Scottish people’s Sovereignty, then there is a Plan A to bring that about.
Somehow along the line, this route has been thought as some taint of the principle of Sovereignty of the people and somehow, would invalidate a consequent referendum – that is some real twisted thinking.
The current situation is the anathema and the farce. To be so thrawn as to accept nothing less than the capitulation of Westminster to acknowledge the right of Scotland to hold a referendum is tragic.
The price for that intransigence, has been to fail the will of Scotland; for we are out of Europe and we are out of time and we are not, in any circumstances getting a referendum we voted for – excepting that it is held under the aegis and gift of Westminster which will be anything other than an Independent Scottish process.
Independence is not gifted, it is not granted, it is taken.
The process has always been there in its simplicity – the real Plan A – fear and timidity has failed us, We truly get the government we deserve. In Scotland’s case two – one which ridicules and one which is held ridiculous.
Perhaps our representatuves don’t believe in us any longer after 2014, perhaps that is the reason for the inaction, the gradualist approach which would see Scotland ploughed, salted and subservient to her suzerein masters.
2014 was then – we thank the SNP then, for the opportunity we bottled – but this is now and there is no place in politics for dewey-eyed affection. The belief sown in 2014 has not weakened, it has strengthened and Scotland is growling to its representatives to shit, or get off the pot. This will not end well if the SNP do not acknowledge that.
Heaver@2.51
I know what you mean. The election is still a few months away but I’ve no idea who to vote for. They say a week is a long time in politics, so maybe in a few months time it will be clearer for those of us who want independence but would struggle to vote for the “so called” Independence Party
With Brexit looming, the last thing any government would do, least of all the Tories (well maybe the whacky SNP) would do, is split the country.
There is NO way that a section 30 will be given within the next few years at least, by which time Holyrood will have long gone.
These are obvious things to the layman, why are they not obvious to these clever folk at the SNP?
The SNP are a waste of time.
Seems Kenny is the only SNP politician that gives two hoots about Scottish sovereignty.
I had high hopes for Joanna Cherry after the Boris Johnson proroguing case. But, she has been completely ineffectual since then.
Stuart macKay, stoker and stu, all recognise the urgency that is required, while others sleep, or wait for May elections for more of the same kind, or for someone else to kickstart the changes, We are sovereign the people,
Before any one screams UDI is illegal. Let me reinstate the need to recognise wording,
It is illegal for any government as part of another country to announce that it has declared itself independent from the main one, even by holding a referendum, that is not agreed apparently.
However it is not illegal for the people of a nation to declare their sovereignty from the/any government. Especially as there is plenty of evidence going back hundreds of years that the Scottish people have that right, and even Westminster in July 2018, Hansard, recognises we have a right to chose whom governs us.
All the people in Scotland need to do, is create a [ Independent People’s Assembly of Scotland ] to govern them,
Not a government run Citizen assembly, that puts them in charge, and we’re All trying to escape corruption,
Stu I admire your research abilities without question, now it’s for the grassroots to organise this asp, we need to take control away from Holyrude and Westminster and into the Scottish people’s hands, Do you think this could be a way out from the control of two very bad governments, and if so could you help, I don’t even know if we would have to register the “Independent People’s Assembly of Scotland” as I would not like it to become recognised as a political party?
It would be a nation of people,
SNP 1 another independance supporting party on the list. My actual preference is for a party to stand on a pledge to enter negotiations to dissolve the Union. I think it was Micheal Forsytth correct me if I am wrong who said “if the Scots want independance they only have to vote for it.”… Well a +50% vote and a majority of MSPs and MPs is that.
Totally agree with maximum of two terms in office for LIst MPs and would propose a maximum of four for everyone else.
Interesting article Kenny… Divide and rule is the British way… I just never imagined I would see the SNP do it to themselves without external machinations.
Why do you not openly challenge NS for the position of party leader?
Or has the SNP split into factions, which if this is the case then a new organisation is required, since I cannot see MPs giving up another 4 years of well paid salary.
There is nothing to stop the SNP from formally declaring the next Scottish General Election to be a “consultative referendum”. The result would not be binding but it’ together with the return of a record number of pro-independence MSPs would be sufficient to encourage Scotland to send a delegation to the UN with a remit to gain formal support for Scottish independence.
Both Brexit and the proposed GRA amendments are incompatible with the principle of universal human rights. So here’s a look at “Between Power and Principle: An Integrated Theory of International Law”. As you can’t support democracy and public health, while being openly hostile towards international law. Which the the Tories and the current SNP’s leadership most certainly appear to be hostile towards.
https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5294&context=uclrev
Well put Mr MacAskill, just why is the current leadership of the Scottish government unwilling to let the sovereign people of Scotland decide their own future in an independence referendum, when the polls clearly show that independence is now the default position of Scotland’s people.
Why has Nicola Sturgeon the current leader of the Scottish government and the SNP and the Lord Advocate attempted to block the process of finding out whether we actually need a S30 Order or Johnson’s consent to hold an independence referendum, is it because they know we don’t need either.
Why has the possibility of a Plan B been rejected, what possible harm can there be in having a good back up plan, in the business world as in many other walks of life a back up plan is not just preferential but a necessity, so why not have one for the good of the Scottish people.
Nicola Sturgeon talks about independence, but all the evidence suggests that there won’t be an independence referendum within the tenure of the next Scottish government if that government happens to be a SNP one led by Nicola Sturgeon. What can possibly be done to readdress this situation, and more importantly when can it be done.
We don’t have much time, I’d have preferred that next years elections were double up as an independence referendum, but that’s very unlikely to happen with Sturgeon as FM. Meanwhile as we’ve exited the EU against our will, and a No Deal or Low Deal Brexit looks to be on the cards that will severely further damage the Scottish economy, Westminster under Johnson has a whole plethora of nasty plans lined up such as the Internal Market bill that will hurt Scotland and weaken its ability to govern, so what is the SNP government under Sturgeon doing about this, she’s pushing the GRA bill and the Hate Crime bill, whilst kicking independence into the long grass
Sturgeon is sleep walking Scotland over the edge of a cliff in this union, which isn’t fit for purpose, we are screaming loudly to her ( polls on the up or constant for independence) to wake up but its to no avail. What we need now is for someone within the party a trusted and notable soul to break ranks and step forward, someone the membership can back, someone who will lead us across the independence finish line.
We need the SNP to produce its very own David Marshall, or it could be another 20 odd years before we get another bite at the cherry.
Stuart MacKay
I think you may be right, that this is in part a class struggle. As such it is also part of a long battle against ethnic oppression, in which much of Scotland’s middle class and meritocratic elite tends to be more Anglophone, conservative, and unionist; what Hechter (1998) describes as a ‘cultural division of labour’.
Our political scene is mostly dominated by the middle class and privileged, as is the lobbying sector which seems to have the loudest voice on policy development. And if they were not MC 15-20 years ago they sure are now. So we see an elite that is not quite in rhythm culturally with the people.
Post-colonial theory tells us that the pampered bourgeoisie elite of a dominant National Party will seek ‘an accommodation with colonialism’ (Fanon 1968), which is what the SNP elite lying down before their UK masters is, and this is at odds with the desire of the masses seeking independence. It also tells us that the group most likely to fight for liberation are the ‘lumpen proletariat’, in this case predominantly the Scots speaking working class community, aided by a pro-independence intellectual class (e.g. informed bloggers such as Wings, Craig Murray etc) that is itself increasingly discriminated against by the National Party elite.
Such events normally precipitates the creation of new National Parties, which is what we are now seeing.
I actually leafleted for you, with my son in his pram, when I lived in West Calder. Maybe 1979/80?
We’ve come a long way but I’m very worried about the way the hierarchy of the SNP is taking us now.
I’m also worried about the shenanigans with the Alex Salmond trial and what the press are keeping under wraps until next May…and what that might do to the YES vote.
All in all, I’m terribly disappointed with the SNP leadership at the moment.
Don’t you just hate it when people you’d happily roast over a slow fire for their behaviour on one issue start coming up with sensible and rational insights on another?
After a quiet period, as noted above – Joanna Cherry is going to defend the Women’s Pledge against the SNP Leadership, the wokes and Alyn Smith on the eve of their conference.
‘… we don’t have to listen to daddy.’
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18867968.joanna-cherry-intolerance-bleeding-independence-debate-will-damage/
That should get it off to a lively start.
I’ve certainly never heard of an effective independence movement being lead by a “pampered bourgeoisie elite” demanding recognition and equality in law.
When someone gets in charge of political party who isn’t interested in its main goal (independence) then clearly things are gonna go wrong sooner or later. The problem is that the leadership have strangled any form of dissent within the party, and i dont think can be trusted to count NEC votes fairly.
If people want any further proof NS isnt too pushed on independence we need only look at her attitude to the party name!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4804310/I-don-t-like-party-s-name.html
I wholeheartedly agree with you @Kenny MacAskill MP when you say that:
“Scotland’s future is always the Scottish people’s to decide. That is a principle we must never surrender.”
Unfortunately it appears the SNP have capitulated The Scottish Peoples Sovereignty to that of Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty.
The Sovereign Scottish people (citizens of one of Kingdoms of the Bipartite Union of 1707) decided that they wanted to remain EU Citizens in 2016.
As of 01/01/2021 we will not be.
As of 01/01/2021 the Treaty is officially irrevocably broken.
AS OF 01/01/2021 I expect (NO, I FUCKING WELL DEMAND) that all the MPs and MSPs THE SOVEREIGN PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND have elected to represent them END THE UNION VIA THE VIENNA CONVENTION.
ANNOUNCE IT!
ADMINISTER IT!
MANAGE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES REACTION TO IT!
FUCK WESTMINSTERs WHINING ABOUT IT!
SCOTLAND EXPECTS EVERY ELECTED MAN & WOMAN TO DO THEIR DUTY!
WE THE SOVERIGN PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND DEMAND IT.
ANYTHING ELSE WILL BE SURRENDER, AND ABJECT SURRENDER AT THAT.
Oh and next time you are talking to Ian Blackford Kenny any chance can you ask him when we get our apology for being dragged out of the EU against our will despite his promises to the contrary?
Maybe you could persuade him to go on the record with a written apology as a WoS Article?
Jockanese
May I second your request that the windbag blackford apologises for his lies regarding Scotland being pulled out of europe.
Alf Baird
Thanks for that, particularly the reference to Frantz Fanon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frantz_Fanon makes for interesting reading.
Any new national party is likely to something way more than the couple of list parties we’ve seen so far and might be something way beyond what the Rev. is hoping to see. There’s a lot of months between now and Spring and covid is going to stalking the corridors of a lot of places in the meantime. Throw in the first signs of post-Brexit chaos and the fact that Boris’ Wunderkind seem to be deserting the sinking ship then indeed interesting times are definitely ahead. I don’t think we’ll see anything radical but if it does happens then it’s not going to be something that can easily be dismissed, controlled or ignored.
Next May might be simply an extinction event for many things.
Alf Baird says:
13 November, 2020 at 3:32 pm
…… Such events normally precipitates the creation of new National Parties, which is what we are now seeing.
Aye, I agree with that, with one caveat. It’s not just a new National Party we need, but an innovative change of strategy too, ideally one which puts Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty at it’s centre, and thus circumvents all the mechanisms of Union which are designed to oppress us.
A most obvious example of that is Broadcasting. There MUST be consequences and redress for Scotland to create it’s own Broadcasting network when the existing network is clearly biased and propagandised, and failing to fulfill it’s obligations. We need look no further than the televised football last night.
It’s not just broadcasting however, it’s EVERY reserved power, (and I mean reserved power, NOT devolved power). Scotland should have a “shadow” portfolio to monitor how the Westminster Government handles reserved matters, and wherever Scotland’s rights or Constitution is encroached upon, then Scotland will intervene as a sovereign entity and remove Westmister as custodian of the abused power…
Thus Scotland would have a full spectrum “Government in Waiting”, in anticipation and in diligent preparedness for full Independence.
A controversial detail of such a thing might be a uniquely Scottish tax, equal to maintaining the upkeep of these shadow portfolios, and thus leaving Westminster with no purchase whatsover over them.
DaisyC @ 1.25
‘those at the top who have had their families threatened…..’
Basically you’re saying that the top tier of the SNP have been infiltrated.
If so, much of the inertia and corruption makes sense. Alex S had to be removed/neutered . In which case, there is no saving the SNP is there?
The truth is after implementation of the IMB we’re all fk’d anyway. Westminster can overturn any of our legislation, including control of infrastructure. Fracking anyone?
It’s beyond tragic.
Tbh, I’ve done my best to forget about how to support democracy, as it simply isn’t conducive to good metal health, when you understand how you are being denied access to your human rights, yet are unable to prevent it.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780080289212/development-human-rights-and-the-rule-of-law#book-description
We do have a way out.
We can chose who governs us, claim of right, and it should be the people as the nation of Scotland
We select,
Anyone inThat governance will not have the right to stand in his or her position for more than a few years, that way all of Scotland has a say in the direction Scotland goes, and no one such as the tories or labour can gain a foothold, it can not be emphasised enough that it must an ever changing selection of people resident in Scotland from all walks of life, the everyday person that makes our choices with us,
Never can we ever lose our sovereignty to a government that has agendas of its own that is not in keeping with the interests of Scottish people. We the people are the future for Scotland.
“ Jockanese windtalker@ 0344 p.m.” “ Scottish citizens voted to remain in the EU in2016” . Wholeheartedly agree with your post Sir . Also however, the Sovereign people of Scotland voted to remain in the EU in September 2014 , as the principal plank of the “ Vote No “ campaign was that a YES vote would remove Scotland from the EU . Consequently , a substantial number of voters ( including EU nationals )voted to remain in the UK because it guaranteed EU membership for “ A GENERATION “ . That “ Generation” lasted until 2016 ( 2 years) . Consequently, the mandate of EU citizenship ( let’s assume for “ A GENERATION “ ) with regard to the referendum vote of 2014 has been completely shattered.
For this reason alone the Referendum vote of 2014 has to be RERUN. The Tories favourite “ for a generation “ phrase should equally apply to the 2014 vote in the context of our EU citizenship.
The Scottish Bourgeoisie, that most feather-bedded class of people, have no interest, ambition or enthusiasm for Independence and will defend the status-quo, their privileged social position and their bank-accounts, accordingly. So, yes, the question of class and the behaviour of the current SNP leadership are far from mutually exclusive.
@ CameronB Brodie at 2:52 pm
You’re not wrong
The NEC agenda? It’s certainly not for a balanced equality,
Are they sociopathic delusionists? Maybe Well yes
Although more delusional narcissists
Symptoms
Signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder and the severity of symptoms vary. People with the disorder can:
Have an exaggerated sense of self-importance
Have a sense of entitlement and require constant, excessive admiration
Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
Exaggerate achievements and talents
Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people
Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior
Expect special favors and unquestioning compliance with their expectations
Take advantage of others to get what they want
Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
Be envious of others and believe others envy them
Behave in an arrogant or haughty manner, coming across as conceited, boastful and pretentious
Insist on having the best of everything — for instance, the best car or office
At the same time, people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble handling anything they perceive as criticism, and they can:
Become impatient or angry when they don’t receive special treatment
Have significant interpersonal problems and easily feel slighted
React with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make themselves appear superior
Have difficulty regulating emotions and behavior
Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change
Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection
Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, vulnerability and humiliation
I would like to thank Dr.Google for the last part of that
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about how they as candidates are “hard working and a another load of mince”
If you looked at all the NEC favorites up for a chance at the election every article on these people (in the National) they all promote that “delusional ethic” Quite falsely in my opinion, the idea is to boost their lack of self confidence, mostly to kid themselves on
Have to disagree with you @North chiel says at 4:39 pm
If you ignore ‘The Vow’ PISH, at the very least Scots voted to retain the status quo in September 2014.
That status quo was fucked by 2016s EU Referendum.
Our Sovereign instruction that we want to remain EU Citizens will officially (I know technically we have already lost it, and we are transitioning this loss at present).
Claim of Right ridden over roughshod.
EndEx for treaty of Union.
Initiate withdrawl from said Treaty via Vienna Convention.
Then either have a Referendum re EU Membership vs EFTA or immediately lodge a Section 49 request with the EU.
I’m more in favour of EFTA but EU vs EFTA is now academic as long as we remain under London’s Jackboot
I think precedent for a Political Generation is 7 years as per the Good Friday Agreement.
Fourteen consecutive polls showing a plus fifty percent support for Scottish independence, independence now looks like the settled will of the people, and what has Sturgeon done to fufil this settled will of the people, nothing, nil, nada, if anything she’s actually put barriers up to hinder Scottish independence.
Why are we tolerating this woman, why is the SNP membership tolerating this woman. If Sturgeon is allowed to continue to lead us down this path away from Scottish independence, then the whole country will suffer for her actions.
She won’t entertain a Plan B, nor will she even consider using next years elections as a vote for independence. Over the last six months which has shown that the settled will of Scots is for independence, what if anything has the leader of the SNP a party created to bring independence to Scots actually done to bring that dream any closer, nothing I say, the agenda has been to set up a former FM, and to push very unpopular policies such as the Hate Crime bill and the GRA bill.
The handling of Covid-19 has seen Sturgeon’s popularity reach new heights, but these giddy new heights in no way equates to her naming a date for a independence referendum, no a landslide, or significant victory at next years elections for the SNP, will allow Sturgeon to fufil HER agenda, not our wish of independence, of course the majority of voters who are unaware of this will vote for their local MSP thinking that they’re voting for Scottish independence in the near future, the reality couldn’t be further from the truth.
@James Che (2.39) –
Cheers!
😉
What Tory “super-austerity”? Rishi Sunak has been ramming free cold hard cash down the throats of Scots for the whole of the pandemic. The Tories have just dumped trillions into the economy. The Tories are the only reason most of you are breathing. Or is it Nat lore to believe that the Furlough scheme was “oor Nicola”? Why do Scotnats live permanently in a parallel universe of fake, unconditional grievance?
There is a last ditch effort to retake to reins of the party in THE NEC elections at conference. There are two slates now doing the rounds and there are more members who would rather see the traditional SNP independence party rather than the fast becoming devolutionist party. This however is open to abuse by Gradualist branch convenirs doling out delegates passes to their chosen few. The membership NEED to be activated and the cancer in the party needs to be jettisoned. Before it’s too late and we end up like Quebec. Neutered forever.
stonefree
The NEC’s agenda is simply not compatible with supporting human rights, democracy, or the rule-of-law. The there’s the moral incompetence of the Lord Advocate’s legal practice to consider.
https://www.intechopen.com/online-first/humans-the-biggest-barrier-to-realising-human-rights-a-south-african-perspective
“What Tory “super-austerity”? Rishi Sunak has been ramming free cold hard cash down the throats of Scots for the whole of the pandemic.”
Yes, and has made clear he’s going to want it back. Hence super-austerity.
@Iam
“The Tories have just dumped trillions into the economy. “
Trillions?
Evidence?
As an Englishman living and working in Scotland since 1970, I voted leave in the last referendum and even financially supported the SNP.
Since then, and in particular during the past couple of years when I started following WoS on a daily basis, I have come to the conclusion that there is something absolutely rotten in the State of Scotland, and the rot seems to stem from the very top of the Scottish Government.
I can honestly no longer vote in favour of *any* political position advocated by the SNP under the present leadership. I do not honestly know where to turn.
I am too old to turn and run back home to England, not that I want to. And I am too old and perhaps wise in my ways to realise that the present cliquey SNP government do not seem to have the best intentions of an Independent Scotland at the heart of their policies. There are far too many extraneous policies and “issues” spilling out of the back of the ever-slowing SNP bandwagon – once a juggernaut of political machines – to ever have my support again, never mind my (now) pensioner’s mite.
Where do I turn?
I’m open to how things would work after another YES vote but that state of affairs must be negotiated from a position of absolute independence.
Reuters 5:27PM 2020
UK PM’s adviser Cummings quits immediately.
Bloomberg had Cummings resignation headline as done deal very early this morning, 1am as opposed to the going at Xmas thing.
With Cummings now outside the tent and pissing in things could become rather interesting for Boris.
Left carrying a box!
https://archive.vn/O3XVo
As Mr. MacAskill is a former Cabinet Secretary for Justice, perhaps he can shed some light on our legal Establishment’s ambivalence towards democracy and the rule-of-law? Is their deference to British nationalism simply sufficiently powerful to blind them to universal principles of legal doctrine and practice, such as “The International Law of Recognition”?
https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/24/2/667/494129
GUYS PAY ATTENTION Can I ask you ALL to read Iain Mhors post at 2.59pm AGAIN, what he and others say regarding sovereignty is correct . OUR MP’S at WM are our spokespersons for our sovereignty not NS OR MSP’S OR THE SG, THEY represent US and speak for us they are the MAJORITY of Scots MP’S.
THAT IS THE CASE NO DUBIETY NO DISCUSSION , NS and the SNP SG is ONLY a construct of a WM DEVOLVED PARLIAMENT and consequently is adhering and capitulating to WM DIKTAT
As Iain says ALL we need is for our WM elected MP’S as our SOVEREIGN REPRESENTATIVES to INFORM WM that we are having a referendum before 1st Jan 2021 to determine if SOVEREIGN SCOTS want to remain within the union and that decision will be binding
There is NO reason to involve NS or the WM devolved Scottish Parliament including any of the parties
WHAT say you Kenny MacAskill can you convince your fellow SNP sovereign Scots representatives to GROW A PAIR and DEFY WM’S devolved government in Scotland and TELL Bozo we ARE having OUR INDYREF2 before 1st Jan 2021
Ian at 5:10
I have a perfectly good solution for not living in unconditional grievance – fake or otherwise.
I’m sure you don’t need it spelled out for you.
Why not dip your shoulder and get behind Scotland.
IAN
Taking the piss and looking for attention eh Pal
Borrowing Money so our kids can spend the rest of their days paying it back to a Tory Hedge fund that won’t pay tax on their Swiss Bank Accounts aye even the mafia has standards.
A Tory voter from Glasgow phoning LBC just now HA HA now that’s a Novelty eh I bet he’s keeping his location and real name secret , Christ a Tory in Glasgow never mind Scotland now that’s a real endangered species .
Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 13 November, 2020 at 5:26 pm
Rishi wants to seen to be continuing traditional Tory economic ideology after he stops picking off the magic money tree.
Ah ! so we’re just embittered ingrates unable to acknowledge the benificence of our superiors ? Christ Almighty ! Just about the only thing NS has said in recent times that I agree with is that we could do a far better job in the current ” crisis ” ( and generally ) if we were Independent and not reliant on the quantatively-eased Monopoly money being – selectively – thrown around by WM , which , though being shaken from the mythical money tree will take-on an absolutely real quality when it requires to be paid back , and it won’t be the banks , corporations or – Lese Majeste , the monarchy that will feel the pain , it , will , as ever , be the ” ordinary ” working people . So , yes , hyper-austerity is inevitable , certainly if the Tories remain in power , which they will for at least the next 4 years
The national news on Radio Scotland just reported that John Swinney ‘can’t say when a decision will be reached’ on whether or not to release the legal advice given to the SG and requested by the harassment committee?
He was supposed to give it to the committee today. No ‘ifs’, ‘buts’, ‘maybes’ – the letter from the committee was crystal clear. But no, he just snubbed them again.
Nicola Sturgeon stood up and ‘promised’, in the parliament, on the record, in front of everyone, that her govt would co-operate fully and give the committee anything it asked for. The parliament voted, just last week, for the advice to be published.
How can she, Murrell, Swinney, Wolffe, Evans and all the rest of them get away with such blatant contempt? It is utterly fucking disgraceful. If any of us treated a court similarly we’d find ourselves in the slammer.
When, oh when will the so-called ‘journalists’ in msm print and broadcast in this country start taking these corrupt bastards to task? What has to happen?
@ Ian Brotherhood, ‘When, oh when will the so-called ‘journalists’ in msm print and broadcast in this country start taking these corrupt bastards to task? What has to happen?’
Aye Ian, such a sad day when the term ‘corrupt bastards’ (correctly) is used in the same sentence, and associated with, the party represented at high level by – John Swinney.
Shame.
As to what needs to happen. I think a criminal complaint of embezzlement has got to be made re misused 1/2 million £ IndyRef2 fund.
Without that action, others within the party cannot ‘abandon ship’, demand resignations, or withdraw from the whip in order not to be associated with such illegality.
Cummings is Goings 🙂
@Daisy Walker (7.28) –
What really gets me is the hypocrisy. It is breathtaking.
Aside from all the ins-and-outs of the ‘politics’ here, what’s the difference between Swinney’s behaviour and Dominic Cummings Barnard Castle episode? ‘Do as I say, not as I do’ etc.
Day after day we’re being ordered to do this, that and whatever else and expected to accept that it’s all being imposed in good faith.
The very fact that they take good faith for granted and happily condone the vilification of anyone who doesn’t kowtow is a measure of how aloof and contemptuous they have become. The Untouchables right enough.
You coined the phrase ‘we can do better than Boris’, right? Well, we also deserve a lot better than we’re getting from this shower of self-serving law-flouting tractors.
Btw, Mr. MacAskill, suggesting our legal Establishment is (institutionally) ambivalent towards democracy and the rule-of-law, isn’t empty hyperbole. Not unless you consider breaking international law to be compatible with “HUMAN RIGHTS, THE RIGHT OF SELF-DETERMINATION AND THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM”. Then again, the Scottish government is determined to support eugenics through their gender agenda.
https://www.gmu.edu/programs/icar/ijps/vol4_1/takayuki.htm
It looks as if,should the SNP gain a majority of seats in the Parliament in 2021, they will not lead Scotland to independence. So, if there is not time to form an independence party to stand in the constituencies as well as the ISP to stand only in the regions, everyone who really wants independence should vote Greens and the ISP.
Cumming was a liability for the Union… Bet Boris is next perhaps before Xmas because his families matter, but more probably in the New Year, because with him at the helm support for the Union will continue to erode. Then a new savior will arise riled to fool, I mean convince the SCot everything is fine and dandy. I just regret that more SNP MPs and MSPs are not making hay while th sun shines and combating the diatribe and disinformation that is rolled out on a daily basis by the MSN.
@ Ian B
It’s interesting to see all this play out. The actions of many are being watched closely. The inquiry is one aspect, the MSP candidate selections were another. We’ve just had the NEC nomination process shut down before the stated time because the nomination threshold for all had supposedly been reached, but by closing down that process early it denied other members the ability to express their support for certain nominees with their particular credentials and leanings.
The upcoming conference will vote to determine who of those nominated gets selected and that will ultimately provide a very clear view of where the party is heading, and whether a change of course with a change of personnel on the NEC is possible.
The old adage “be careful what you wish” for is very apt at the moment, because what many appear to wish and are pushing for is wholly unacceptable to many for various reasons.
After conference will we potentially see a split? I’d imagine it will be a defining point for many.
Habib Steele – the Greens expel you from their party if you don’t agree that cocks in frocks are really women. Never, ever ccould I give the Greens any of my votes.
It needs to be said more loudly that a vote for the SNP without any plan b next May is effectively giving Boris a mandate to say no and decide for us.
We know from polling that most folk think Holyrood should decide so I think it’s fair to say that the population would go with a plan B if they can see Plan A is being blocked.
Assertiveness is needed; where are we to get the confidence for self government if the politicians won’t take the power? It doesn’t scream confidence.
In not being assertive of the right for Scotland to choose, you are not being “co-operative” or “sensible” or whatever you’re telling yourself. You’re being “weak” and “mendacious” (in asking for votes to do something you will not push hard to do. I’ve remarked before that if the SNP don’t feel delivering on their pledges on Indy are in their gift, they should say so as it’s a bit fraudulent to say you’ll do something and limply say someone else won’t let you afterwards).
I wanted a day off politics to revel in a great victory. Everybody is buzzing. Alas people talking about BoJo and Cummings. I am more interested in my own Parliament. The fact that the deadline to answer the Harassment Inquiry has not been met is a worry. The smoking gun is right there. An untenable position by the SG. Sturgeon and Swinney think we are daft and are treating us with contempt. All the harder their fall will be.
@Ian B, 7.44
‘Such a parcel of rogues in the nation’ also comes to mind. The difference between Dominic Cummings and John Swinney is that John Swinney is elected. He has forgotten that he is a representative and that his role is to defend us not subvert our rights.
Obviously the road to achieving an Independence vote has definitively split into two camps. There are those like Stu and Kenny who tell us harsh truths. These are difficult to accept ,but they pass the test of scrutiny
The other side not so much believe necessarily in the SNP, but in the leadership of the party, regardless of the inactivity of that leadership towards independence, and their alacrity at pushing agendas which are unpopular, under that cloak of independence.
Excuses are made for lack of movement and talk of secret plans for Independence predicted to appear at the right time to surprise and wrong foot those who oppose the aims of Scotland.
I cannot fall for that, but many will. It is playing with peoples hopes and dreams for your own purpose and self promotion.
Scottish National Party. What therefore does that mean?
I used to think it was the party who would fight tooth and nail to obtain Scotland’s freedom from this treacherous Union
Instead I see it morphing into a docile old hound content to lay at the feet of even a cruel master.
I think we have to be aware that it is part of the Unionist game plan to string things along until May’s elections. If the SNP can be made to implode leading up to the elections (and they have been stealthily gathering all the ammunition they need), then it scatters and weakens considerably the independence vote which will take years to rebuild.
However, I agree with Jockanese Wind Talker and others that it has to be made clear that the Treaty of Union has been irrevocably broken and that we, the sovereign people of Scotland, are no longer bound by it. Ideally it would be our MPs at Westminster who make this announcement as it is their (sovereign) duty to do so. We simply cannot look the other way and allow the economic, ecological and social devastation to befall our nation which Brexit will bring. Such law-breaking usurpation of our sovereignty must be challenged.
Fake Tories again.
All this garbage about their MPs didn’t like Cummings
Breaking Lockdown, coming up with the idiotic story
Of driving 30 miles to see if his vision was adequate
Why didn’t they do anything about it 6 months ago.
Why did Gove lie for him by saying he goes driving
to check his eyesight too
Cummings goes off after giving family members £millions
In dodgy Covid emergency deals.
More money than they could ever spend.
.
They take the UK public for mugs and indeed they are in electing them!
Jonathan Marshall says:
13 November, 2020 at 8:06 pm
“Cumming was a liability for the Union… Bet Boris is next perhaps before Xmas because his families matter, but more probably in the New Year, because with him at the helm support for the Union will continue to erode. Then a new saviour will arise riled to fool”
I’m tempted to check the odds of Sunak taking over in January.
He is not a blusterer and handles himself pretty well in public. The quiet, reserved one. Attributes that show how dangerous he is. Starmer will find him harder to deal with.
@Beaker
I will give you any odds you want and any stake that Boris won’t be gone anytime soon. Certainly not before Christmas or January. Why are people talking about a distant Parliament when the real story is closer to home?. I don’t know how many times Stu has written articles about this. Want Independence the blockage is at Holyrood.
I agree with Breeks, we are a sovereign people and a S30 is a meaningless side show which both SNP and WM play the true independence movement into a corner with.
Plan B was the real only way and last chance of the true activists within SNP to make a way towards independence.
It is no gone so the only way is YES and ISP now.
SNP like old Labour will die for failing the Scottish people.
@Tannadice Boy says:
13 November, 2020 at 9:14 pm
I can’t see the blockage being cleared anytime soon unfortunately, and definitely not before the end of the year.
Hi Jenny. Very interesting article. What are your thoughts on all of the ‘bought’ votes in Edinburgh Eastern? Did these votes transfer across to East Lothian too for your selection? Did you know of these fake members when you backed a candidate in Edinburgh Eastern?
@Beaker
On that I would agree. The Parliament at Holyrood is the blockage. We have elections in May. But it’s now down to the SNP members to make a difference. I am not holding breath the keys to the castle have been handed over. I am glad I resigned from the SNP. A party I no longer recognise.
I’ve written to Peter Murrell, Angus MacLeod and the SNP Conference Committee on several occasions without even the decency of an acknowledgement, never mind a reply. It seems the SNP HQ are becoming a bit of a closed shop, without need for interference from ordinary members.
@Angry Weegie
You have my condolences. The SNP is not a party of members but a party of the Murrells. And it has been since Sturgeon took over. She inherited a party from Salmond at 50 percent plus polling. And she spent her first 2 months getting down 2 dress sizes. Why that was important I don’t know. He did the hard work she pocketed the money is about the sum of it. PS I note her dress size is back up to where it was. Meantime lots of money and time wasted.
One of those nights when you write fifteen comments but can only send one or two because the others are actionable…
Mibbe it’s just the come-down after last night, don’t know, but the heart feels heavy right now…
Come on Big Eck – do your thing at the inquiry, answer whatever questions they have, then come out and let rip. You know we’re just waiting for the call.
😉
Say what you like about the Conservative and Unionist Party, but, when needs must – they are ruthless in getting rid of dead wood.
Look how quickly they got rid of May, when push came to shove. Then today, they did not hang around in getting shot of Cummings.
You might think, with the SNP being so apparently keen to mimic the Tories, they would have moved against the Murrells before now.
The Martin Keatings verdict. Could be the one thing that saves us.
If they find in his favour, then the SNP can have no hiding place. Don’t give up hope people. I sense that the SNP will be forced into a referendum without a section 30.
@Big Jock (10.53) —
Thanks for the cheering words. Much needed right now.
Chatting to a friend earlier who wrote the following:
Quite a mind-blowing take on it all, but who knows what’s going on in their nappers right now?
.
Kenny,
Thankyou for contributing some regular sanity to this debate and looking at ways we can get out of this Boris Bourach. The Section 30 constipation needs to be unblocked.
It would be refreshing to even just study some scenarios where we take back control. Scotland is our nation. By Arbroath Abbey and the declaration, it we, the sovereign people of this nation that should and I hope can decide.
Kenny, I remember 1979 and you hit the nail with your reference about the gerrymandering that allowed the dead to vote NO to Scottish Independence in 1979.
Meanwhile, in these dreadful times, here is a little something to lift the spirits.
Spitting Image have covered the departure of Dominic Cummings and the weakness of Boris Bourach…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SCyIB35_sc4
Al-Stuart
More Boris Cummings Bourach. The problem is closer to home. You can take a horse to water but you can’t force it to drink. 1979? There was no Scottish referendum in 1979. I was there the referendum was in 2014. And we lost.. and we lost and nobody has addressed why we lost. But let’s build up the coffers of the Murrells. There needy you know.
Just read the latest results from the Scot Goes Pop polling on the Internal Market Bill effect on Holyroood.
Pretty much 60% against the power grab. Very interesting break down across party lines / former No Voters.
It’s been said recently that the SNP is now a party only interested in devolution. If only the current SNP leadership really were the party of ‘devolution’ they would be screaming from the roof tops about the IMB and the danger it presents to Holyrood.
And a very interesting comment by Mr Kelly that ONCE VOTERS ARE INFORMED about the dangers of the IMB, the support for Holyrood is again in the 60%’s.
The current SNP can’t even manage to campaign on that.
Shame.
There has long been an argument that ‘we need the SNP’ to deliver Indy. If you dig down into the roots of that, I would suggest, we have always needed a reputable, elected body, to do the negotiating / legal part of the transaction, with reputable, able leaders within it to carry out same.
The SNP, in its current form, is not willing or able to stand up for devolution, never mind strive for Indy.
And we are running out of time.
For those in the SNP, who know what needs to be done, and who know how to get things done – where does your loyalty lie – to a party no longer fit for purpose, or should that be? a party that is purposely unfit – or to delivering Indy?
The 2 things are no longer the same, shoulders are no longer pushing against the same wheel.
There is only just enough time, at the moment, to inform the electorate and provide them with electable candidates for a plebiscite Holyrood Election.
Or spend the next 6 months trying to rectify the SNP, just in time for the media to unleash the hounds.
Choose. Your party or your country. There is not the time or energy to save both now.
@Daisey Walker
Ok I choose my country over the SNP party. The SNP here today gone tomorrow. My country will be here after the SNP. Hope that is clear.
Those keeping us down must go. It is clear that they arent Scottish Nationalists who believe in Scots Indy. It is clear that the present SNP leadership are Yoon Tories protecting their own arses.
Where is the Plan B????
” It is clear that they aren’t Scottish Nationalists who believe in Scots Indy. It is clear that the present SNP leadership are Yoon Tories”
Nail head Ian
That’s why the maneuvers can play on endlessly, there are TWO Tory Governments over Scots!
If we believe the people of Scotland are sovereign then the SNP are not the be all and end all. No matter how much they think they are. There will always be a route to independence.
The SNP’s vision of an ‘independent’ Scotland is not one I can buy into (even though I’d still vote yes). It looks like a banking plutocracy and the continuation of the neo-feudal system we have in place wrt land. The use of a foreign currency makes frequent trips to the IMF a reality.
They really have made a new labour type situation for themselves. Like the starmer brigade and the Dems in America, they offer more of the Statius quo. That status quo is killing people.
Even if the Scottish Parliament has its wings clipped in January there will always be the WM elections where a majority pro-indy MPs is our ticket out of the U.K.
@Alex Lomax
Things are moving. We have a lively and flourishing online policy forum. Branches are set up, officers chosen, branch meetings are online. Bank accounts for branches are a bit of an issue with banks refusing to set up new accounts but RBS will, to existing customers. I’m branch treasurer and am in process of setting up an account. Then we can fundraise and start letting people know we are here.
We can set up street stalls and do some old fashioned, socially distanced, street politics.
Next job will then be selecting candidates. Then when our policies have been thrashed out the membership will get to vote on them, what a revolutionary idea. Another pro Independence used to do that. What happened to them?
Muscleguy
What about Scotia Future?
What make you think ISP is a better option?
Both are headed by former SNP MP’s.
@Iain More, 11.55, @Papko 12.40
They’re Neo-liberals, just like Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Keir Starmer, Andrew Wilson, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Margaret Thatcher which is why their vision of Scotland looks like a “banking plutocracy with a continuation of the neo-feudal system we have in place” (see ScottieDog 8.04).
Muscleguy @9:38 am
Has the ISP any policy regarding a successful candidate’s salary after election to Holyrood? I seem to remember the SSP MSPs used to only keep an adequate portion of their parliamentary salaries and the rest went to party funds.
What has happened to the SNP, as we know, is a salutary lesson on the dangers of careerism in any party that has a historic mission to carry out.
Muscleguy
A key difference between the two new parties, I believe, is SF intend having candidates in both the constituency and region, whereas ISP are standing only on the regional list.
Alf Baird says:
14 November, 2020 at 11:56 am
Muscleguy
A key difference between the two new parties, I believe, is SF intend having candidates in both the constituency and region, whereas ISP are standing only on the regional list.
Another key difference is SF are not pro EU, so that’s a no from me, although I do appreciate that Eurosceptic YES voters need a home to go to, where they can still vote YES for Indy.
Breeks
Actually, both new indy parties appear to be pro EFTA as far as I can see, so not really much of a difference, is there.
However, future international alliances and relationships are arguably much less of an issue than independence, which is the essential feature that would enable Scots to have the power to hold referendums on such matters in future.
All Scotland’s independence supporters require is a new party with one policy aim – to negotiate Scotland’s withdrawal from the UK union. This would avoid any unnecessary “so that’s a no from me” misunderstandings and divisions.
After independence is secured there would be a national election held where folks can pick and choose on various policy preferences.
Let’s get independence done!
“hilM says:
13 November, 2020 at 2:46 pm
Having been outside the governing mainstream for so long, the SNP’s long period in govt has led to the point where the outlook of the party’s top people has been absorbed into the corrupt shambles that has passed itself off as competent governance in Scotland for too long. Councils, health boards, law firms, accountants, the police, education, trade unions…all riddled with corrupt, greedy little fuckers on the make and on the take. Almost every service concentrated in Glasgow and Edinburgh. Hardly any oversight or accountability. In an independent Scotland that has to change or it will be just be ‘meet the new boss, same as the old boss’.
This in bucket loads.
Those who sit in power [or executive if you like] have absolutely no idea, or care, what is happening to the Scottish people.
Change is desperately required.
I have said for a while now Holyrood is a wee preyendy patliament iwned by westminster. It is a block on Independence placed precisely to lead us where it has. Nowhere. We will not get Indy while we run our politics by its rules. Scotland needs to reconvene its own parliament, run by its own legislation and ditch the Edinburgh agreement. To do that we need to ditch SNP and its privy cooncilors.
SF have a policy of forcing all people to work (whether jobs or no, whether ability or no), and of removing the safety net from those who cannot. They are as tory as the tories, so they are a No-No from me, as my disabilities make it well nigh impossible to hold down a job. And ISP are naive in the extreme, believing that they can quite nastily ‘lord it over’ prospective voters and refuse to reply to emails or other enquiries about their policies. Their whole attitude seems to be ‘ we are the answer to the snp shortcomings so if you support indy you must vote for us regardless of how we behave towards you’, so they are a No-No.
Which leaves the Alliance, who were the only ones willing to join forces with others for the greater good, to compromise and work together to achieve indy. They were the only ones with any promise, but they have gone very quiet at a time when they should be working very hard to gain voter recognition, raise funds and build a strong reputation. Also they have Tommy Sheridan, bless him, the only one of the whole lot of these aspiring politicans to put his money where his mouth is, the only one of them who achieved real tangible benefits for the poor and vulnerable of Scotland, but he carries baggage in that a lot of uncooperative, self-centred snowflakes boycott any venture he is involved in, to the detriment of indy.
So here in NE Scotland, there is still no acceptable, politically sound, politically astute party for either the list or the constituency vote. It feels extremely wrong to me to not vote but I wont vote for more jumpers-on-the-gravy-train no matter what they promise – we have seen what promises are worth even from those we believed we could trust implicitly to take us to indy.
There is still not a leader in sight who can unite us and enthuse us and motivate us all like AS did, like Jimmy Reid did. And a few guys kicking a ball around wont change that either, the way we thought Allie’s Army would, all these years ago.
Late enough on the thread to mention a topical development on the virus.
The BMJ seems to have finally lost patience with SAGE and the government following “the science”:
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425
More trouble for Johnson now that Caligula Cummings has left to spend more time with his cardboard box.
Fionan: “ There is still not a leader in sight who can unite us and enthuse us and motivate us all like AS did, like Jimmy Reid did. And a few guys kicking a ball around wont change that either, the way we thought Allie’s Army would, all these years ago.”
I half agree but when circumstances change I’m sure we’ll see and have the leader we need. The demand is there and I think it’s demand and circumstances that produce great leaders.
One increasingly clear thing is that we all know today who isn’t a great leader, and who isn’t capable of delivering; and that’s a massive bit of progress.
@ Fionan at 8:05 pm
I agree
“they have Tommy Sheridan” Yes Tommy Sheridan has some baggage ,that is far outweighed by his passion and commitment
Had there been half a dozen more in the same mould as TS,I would question whether 80% to 90% of the Sturgeon SNP would be sitting polishing their seat
The idea that there’ll be a referendum in autumn 2021 seems as fanciful as when it was argued one would take place this year. The rhetoric denies the reality, which is why it’s rumored that SNP special advisors have already been reining in its mention.
Hmmm . . . pretty shoddy reining in job Kenny when both Mike Russell and Ian Blackford have said there will be a referendum in 2021
ScottieDog says:
The SNP’s vision of an ‘independent’ Scotland is not one I can buy into (
And why should you? The SNP is the vehicle, not the road. And in 2026 at the latest we can choose a shiny new vehicle.
Meanwhile, it is the only roadworthy vehicle we have. Slowing it down by creating a traffic jam of cobbled together ‘pro-independence parties’ or diverting it by throwing stingers under its wheels is frankly suicide for the indy movement.
Or are you suggesting that once independence is achieved the SNP intend to do a Mugabe and throw democracy under a bus?
ScottieDog says:
Even if the Scottish Parliament has its wings clipped in January there will always be the WM elections where a majority pro-indy MPs is our ticket out of the U.K.
Really? I believe this was considered by many senior Conservatives to be the situation pre-devolution. Not one has even hinted at this recently though, and there is unlikely to ever be a consensus at Westminster for this position now. (If there was, we would have been independent several years ago).
Any attempt to declare independence without an accepted plebiscite will be met with resistance from the British state up to and including the use of the armed forces. History tells us that.
In addition, there would be no recognition by most or all of the international community.
Best we could hope for would be a long drawn out campaign of civil disobedience or an armed struggle the national pysche is fundamentally unprepared for and unsuited to.
People on here are like a bunch of five year olds who seem to think that saying something makes it so. Sorry, but unless you are John Luc Picard this is not the case.
Iain More says:
13 November, 2020 at 11:55 pm
Those keeping us down must go. It is clear that they arent Scottish Nationalists who believe in Scots Indy. It is clear that the present SNP leadership are Yoon Tories protecting their own arses.
Where is the Plan B????
Are you actually olkd enough to vote? Who exactly do you imagine is ‘keeping us down’ ? (Hint: It isn’t Sturgeon or the SNP, it is the Conservative government at Westminster and their oppos in the Labour party)
A group including Joanna Cherry and Common Weal has submitted an amendment to a resolution on independence which states that the party “will not accept” a Westminster veto on a new referendum.
The resolution does not detail what action the party would do if the Prime Minister’s rejects a new Section 30 order request. But then, they would be mad if they did.
Russell and Blackford have committed to a referendum next year.
It has clearly been impossible to countenance holding an independence referendum during the coronavirus pandemic. The end is in sight, next year is not long. Let’s not, in the words of the Rev recently, miss the biggest sitter of all time by turning on ourselves.
If it doesn’t happen next year there will be all the time in the world to dismantle the existing structures and start anew. But in the meantime, peace, haud yer whisht, get the word out and raise the national mood using the suggested slogan for the new indy campaign:
BELIEVE IN SCOTLAND
@ScotsRenewables
What Russell, Blackford and the gradualists (mis)directing the SNP say, and what actually happens, are two very different things. However earnestly and often they assure us a S30 sanctioned #indyref2 will be forthcoming, it becomes no more plausible for the constant repetition. Similarly, any vague hints that other avenues are being discussed is no substitute for you know….a real Plan B.
It would be the easiest thing in the world for Sturgeon to announce tomorrow that any refusal to grant a S30 Order renders all subsequent General Elections plebiscitary. The real question wet nats and Nicola fans have to answer is what is behind the failure to issue such an ultimatum. Is it simply political cowardice, or is there some other reason?
A leadership that doesn’t truly believe it can win is of no use to us. To win independence we need a campaign and a vote – whether via referendum or plebiscitary elections. If the SNP is incapable of providing the leadership to make it so, it needs to move out of the way for an alternative that will deliver. That may be the work of years, but given the growing likelihood that no referendum will be forthcoming in the foreseeable future, we may as well investigate alternative vehicles.
The SNP vehicle may be roadworthy, but it’s not a vehicle I (and an increasing number f others) now intend to board. Insisting that there is only “one true path” to independence, and that that path necessitates SNP, has NEVER been a wholly convincing argument. Given recent events it is even less convincing. The party fairly reeks of an unmerited sense of entitlement that will be familiar to many who abandoned New (or indeed Old) Labour in Scotland.
The clear and present danger to the earliest achievement of independence is not those of us criticising the SNP for its manifest shortcomings and political timidity, it is the blinkered loyalism of party ultras and their unreasoning useful idiots who believe the platitudes trotted out by no-marks like Pete Wishart. If you’re happy to see independence punted into the long grass, carry on. If you want it to happen before 2039 and a real generation has passed, do something different.
I Have never felt so embarrassed to be Scottish in my whole life. To the rest of Northern Europe we are a laughing stock. They ask ” Why are you still not Independent yet? and we meekly reply, “erm, because our Independence Party has to ask permission from our overlords in England” OMG, ground swallow me up. Iceland and Norway shake their heads in disbelief. Nicola Sturgeon and the NEC, if it’s the money you’re worried about ? Keep it, in fact we’ll pay you more if you stand down and get out of the way. We’ll get some other energy in who actually does the job they are paid to do and doesn’t take 6 years to do it. For the Love of God Nicola Sturgeon, stand down before you embarrass yourself a moment longer and disgrace us even further.
@ScotsRenewables 11.11am
You said: “Any attempt to declare independence without an accepted plebiscite will be met with resistance from the British state up to and including the use of the armed forces. History tells us that.
In addition, there would be no recognition by most or all of the international community.”
This simply isn’t true I’m afraid. Self-determination can be achieved in a number of different ways. The referendum route is actually much the least common route. The fact that it was the chosen route in 2014 – as enshrined in the Edinburgh Agreement – doesn’t mean it is the ONLY possible route, particularly if Westminster has reneged on the 2014 precedent.
A Scottish government, with a clear mandate from Scots electors, would be quite within its rights to declare the next Holyrood or indeed Westminster elections plebiscitary. The international community would, in all likelihood, accept the result as long as it was backed by a majority of voters, in response to a clear question, with a clear mandate beforehand that a majority vote for pro-independence parties would be taken as de-facto independence.
The Westminster regime has many fewer friends now than it did in 2014 prior to brexit remember. Neither the EU nor a Biden presidency are going to go out on a limb for Boris Johnson’s administration.
As for the commitment to a referendum next year, well if dreams were horses beggars would ride. It is apparent from your contribution not so much that you BELIEVE IN SCOTLAND, but that you believe in magical horses. This isn’t about turning on ourselves, it’s about ensuring the SNP is held to account for its pusillanimous response to the current situation.
We deserve better.
Flags don’t feed my kids or keep a roof over their head. All this nonsense is affecting investment in Scotland. Give it a rest, for a generation. Build up Scotland using the Union’s resources. Then ask us again. People living in a prosperous Scotland, wehre this Nat v Yoon poison is gone, might well vote Yes. As things stand right now, it would have to be No.
@AndyEllis – you need to look deeper into the rules and regs, mate. You couldn’t be more wrong on this one.
@Kate
What can be asserted without evidence, can be similarly dismissed. Which part of the “rules and regs” is it you think I need to look deeper into exactly? I’m honestly all ears: fill your boots and show us your solutions with workings Kate.
You can keep your British nationalist nostalgia thanks. The majority are already in favour of independence. A super majority, which must include many Scots unionists, thinks it is entirely a matter for Scotland’s parliament to decide when and how often we vote.
The “too wee, too poor, too stupid” mantra used by Project Fear in 2014 won’t work now. All the promises of the Vow have turned to ashes in the mouths of those naive enough to have lapped them up in 2014. Most would rather take their chances with an independent Scotland aligned to the EU than remain part of the ramshackle, crypto-medieval shambles that is the United Kingdom post no-deal brexit. The economic case for the union – such as it was – has been holed below the water line by brexit.
Thankfully your “No” looks very much like swimming against the stream: I’ve talked to and met many who have gone from No to Yes, but vanishingly few who gave gone the other way.
If you think clinging to the vision of a British nationalist future, outside the EU with no trade deal is less risky than regaining our independence and making our own decisions, all I feel sorry for your lack of courage and imagination.
@andyellis
A referendum this year was impossible. A referendum next year is an open goal. If it doesn’t happen then I will join you in escorting the Murrels to the guillotine, but for now please just give it a rest.
@ScotRenewables
Put up or shut up bud. I’ve never advocated a referendum this year, nor have I ever said one was achievable. I’m simply asking you to justify your magical thinking. It’s obvious to any disinterested observer that you can’t. Saying something is an open goal, and presenting supporting arguments for it being true are not the same thing.
You appear either incapable or unwilling to justify your airy assertions. Neither is a particularly good look, but it’s entirely expected of those who support the party line. You aren’t fooling anyone but yourself.