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The generations game

Posted on November 14, 2020 by

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    1. 14 11 20 15:29

      The generations game –

    201 to “The generations game”

    1. Colin Alexander says:

      If only the SNP or even the Scottish Parliament MSPs and Scotland’s MPs had the fighting spirit of Steve Clarke and the Scotland fitba’ team.

      Well, having said that, the SNP Scot Govt can certainly put up a fight when it comes to trying to conceal information from the Salmond inquiry or trying to sabotage the Forward As One indyref court case.

      In connection with the Salmond situation, we now have the SNP Scot Govt going to the Court of Session to challenge the Information Commissioner’s ruling that a Freedom of Information Request should be published in full.

    2. Marie Clark says:

      Haha, Well done Chris. I think that’s there’s a few of us would like to embrace that slimy wee toad Gove like that.

    3. Sharny Dubs says:

      Well done Chris,
      Good smile for a dreech Saturday

    4. kapelmeister says:

      Time we told that Tory to Gove uck himself.

    5. Stuart MacKay says:

      Colin Alexander

      But fighting spirit will frighten the children. Although they’re hungry, could do with some better clothes and there’s not much extra at Christmas as their parents are on zero hours contract they don’t want anybody to get upset when talking about independence. That nice lady said so.

      Be Submissive for Indy!

      Nice once Chris. It’s the first cartoon in a while where the boot is on the other foot.

    6. Breeks says:

      Thinking twice about being as petty as a Yoon over Sturgeons cheer, but the thing that struck me immediately about Sturgeon posting her wee cheer on Twitter was nothing whatsoever to do with Jo Swinson, but was it somehow asking too much to post a ‘fresh’ wee cheer spontaneous to the occassion? “Congratulations boys, here’s a special cheer I did months ago. I keep it on speed-dial just for occassions like this…”

      Scotland Team scoring goals and taking us in to Europe, Scottish Government dithering for five fkg years in front of an open goal while Scotland is subjugated and bundled out of Europe.

      The biggest cheer Sturgeon will raise is the one she gets for standing down to make way for somebody who knows what the fk they’re doing.

    7. Astonished says:

      Before we get a chance to deal with gove, shagger johnston, liar broon and uk adams.

      We have to deal with the murrells, daddy bear smyth,john swinney,thought crime yusuf and the rest of the wokeratti.

      By the end of november if there has not been a BIG change in the SNP NEC then I will be leaving. I have been a member for over thirty years and if I’m thinking of leaving ….

    8. Mike d says:

      Think sturgeons gonna be like trump, hanging on till the bitter end.

    9. Astonished says:

      P.S. getting rid of angus macleod is a good start.

    10. Carole says:

      Love the tattoo Chris. Haha

    11. Grouse Beater says:

      “Getting rid of angus macleod is a good start.” Astonished 08.40

      He was only following orders.

    12. katherine hamilton says:

      Are we gonnae wait that long again? Aye we are. Sad, but there we are.
      Unless the SNP internal opposition act soon- Cherry etc-, after May next year it’s all over. Marshall’s dive was now or never. He pulled it off. Will they.
      Another fine article from Mr. MacKaskil. (Yawn)

    13. Ottomanboi says:

      …..if not enough care enough… risk all in the most noble cause of national freedom.
      Independence on a plate with no hassle and cheap as chips, not on offer.

    14. Breeks says:

      Mike d says:
      14 November, 2020 at 8:39 am

      Think sturgeons gonna be like trump, hanging on till the bitter end.

      Looks that way, but she’s also proving the case why Scotland needs to update it’s “parliamentary” constitution to include a whole new protocol to cover impeachment proceedings, and known consequences for any “Scottish” Government which considers itself at liberty to overrule a sovereign and democratic mandate from the people.

      I wonder how Sturgeon’s Imposter Syndrome is faring these days, especially what with taking all the credit for a swing in the polls towards Independence which she has done absolutely nothing to encourage.

      Mind, that was probably a load of horseshit for the TV viewers, just like everything else.

    15. Ottomanboi says:

      Scotland requires a collective reboot. Jim Sillars’ 90 minute sports team nationalism is the real lethal virus in the system.
      In the « third world »Sport is often the refuge of the disenfranchised and the helpless.

    16. Hatuey says:

      When Sturgeon took over after the defeat of 2014, she almost certainly would have assumed as many of us did that the dream of independence was over. We forget how gutting that defeat was, how profound and final it felt.

      In that context she, of course, had to come up with new visions of the future – her future as party leader and the country’s – along with new definitions of what success would mean in that future for a party that had essentially lost its reason for being.

      Nobody could criticise her for assuming back then that the best we could hope for was more and better devolution. Nobody could criticise for defining her own part in the future quite narrowly in terms of comparatively boring stuff like social policy, social rights, employment legislation, gender legislation, etc. That’s all there really was.

      Brexit changed everything. Sturgeon should have spent a few weeks formulating a serious strategic response to the Brexit vote and defining a whole new set of priorities for the future. She didn’t. She barged out in front of the cameras and did her usual “I’ve got this” routine.

      Sturgeon is a tactician, not a strategist. She assesses everything from a short-ranged tactical standpoint. All of the problems the SNP faces today derive from that character flaw, the Salmond debacle, Brexit, failure on indyref2, the gender stuff, Covid-19, even the ring-fenced funds scandal.

      And it’s that lack of strategic long-term planning that will be her undoing.

      Salmond is quite the opposite, he plays the long smart game. The Tories when it comes to Brexit and suppressing Scottish independence are playing a long game too. Covid-19 is a long term problem. You can’t ‘wing it’ with stuff like this.

      She keeps turning up to these gunfights with peashooters. In her mind she probably think it works – she gets passing praise from the English left, the EU, US democrats, etc., and probably thinks it’s going really well. But it isn’t.

      There’s nothing there to fail on from a strategic perspective; it’s all just ad hoc ‘make it up as you go along’ opportunism, one gunfight after another, one speech after another, one camera after another, one crisis after another, one little pat on the back after another, to infinity and beyond…

      The cameras go, the pundits move on to the next crisis, the next set of EU talks, the next gunfight, and Scotland is left standing there looking at Sturgeon with nothing. But “don’t worry, guys, she’s got this one too…”

      It’s a world of means without ends.

    17. Republicofscotland says:

      I sincerely hope we don’t have to wait much longer , another belter Chris.

      Meanwhile such is the scandal sweeping the COPFS, over its disgraceful handling of the Rangers FC saga, and with several other complainants waiting in the wings to lodge claims for substantial damages against the COPFS, its thought an inquiry will be needed. Hopefully the current Lord Advocate will find himself under the microscope as well.

    18. Breeks says:

      Good Luck too with the AUOB National Assembly.

      (I don’t think there’s much interaction unless you’re registered for the workshops etc, but hopefully there are productive initiatives making good progress).

      With great timing as usual, this week’s Podcast from Barrheadboy speaks to Neil MacKay, National Coordinator for AUOB.

    19. @ Hatuey at 10.42am: I profoundly disagree with the first three paragraphs of your comment. I woke up the morning after the referendum filled of resolve to continue the fight for our independence, and to join a political party (the SNP) for the first time in my life. Evidently, tens of thousands of others felt the same. If anything, the referendum result strengthened their resolve to continue fighting. I fail to see how one setback was reason for either Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP or anyone else to give up on the goal of independence. All these new members joined the SNP in order to continue the fight and to reinforce the drive towards independence, and I’m sure they believed that with the SNP’s greatly-increased strength in membership, MPs and MSPs, progress towards independence would be unstoppable. Now we discover that Sturgeon has been putting every obstruction in the way of independence all this time. There are no excuses. That woman is beneath contempt.

    20. Republicofscotland says:

      Y’know Steve Clarke and his boys have given Scots back some hope and dignity again, and dare I say it the belief to dream again.

      On the flip side of that coin, our FM Nicola Sturgeon is attempting ( with success I might add) to crush our dream of independence, a dream that’s been over 300 years in the making. There is no limit to where Steve Clarke might take Scotland at next years Euro’s I recall little Iceland and Denmark doing well on separate occasions, albeit in different footballing tournaments.

      However with Sturgeon and Murrell at the helm, Scotland won’t be going anywhere on the independence front anytime soon. One can understand if not agree with a foreign countries parliament (England) wanting to keep hold of and drain Scotland of its resources, but we can never understand or agree with our very own SNP government, a party created to bring independence to Scots crushing our dream of leaving this union.

      All it takes is a little bit of success, as Steve Clarke and his players have shown, for others to see it can be done and follow in their footsteps to the next World Cup and beyond. Independence can and will inspire future generations, we just need our very own Steve Clark to lead us to independence.

      Stand aside Sturgeon and Murrell you’re killing the dream.

    21. Effijy says:

      The Daily Hail gearing up the English on how great they are
      In light of them not trading with anyone.

      Who needs the rest of the world when you are so great.

      It seems an Englishman is behind Apples global success?
      Wonder if Apple knows?

      Next- It’s English research into a Covid Vaccine that’s leading the way?
      The Editor probably didn’t read their story about the Turkish/German couple
      who developed the most successful vaccine available.

      English media certainly do lead the world in fantasy news and disconnection with reality.

      Good Luck with that driving the economy!

    22. Jim Thomson says:

      @Grouse Beater 8:53

      He was only following orders

      Aye, but, WHOSE orders?

      Often wonder that.

    23. Hatuey says:

      Michael Laing, if you woke up “filled of resolve to continue the fight for our independence” after the defeat of 2014, you weren’t thinking rationally. I’m not disputing that you did, though.

      Back then even optimistic people were thinking it would be at least 10 years before we had another pop at it. At least.

      Just about everybody else, including Salmond and Sturgeon, understood that the defeat represented the end of the Independence Movement and the world as we knew it…

      It’s only in retrospect that we can say that we were wrong. The post-defeat surge in support for the SNP represented something that I’ll never be able to fully understand or explain.

      If you look at the manifesto for WM elections in 2015, a now famous document for a variety of reasons, the possibility of another referendum was way down the list of priorities, where it should have been, and even at that depended on conditions that were at the time considered impossibly hypothetical.

      Brexit changed everything.

    24. Effijy says:

      I’m off on a rant here!
      I was looking forward to seeing the Italy Vs Scotland match on TV today.
      Is it on BBC Scotland- No.
      Scottish Television-No.
      Channels 4 or 5- No
      Sky Sports or BT- No
      What are they showing of more importance to Scots?
      Well the BBC are showing England’s Women’s rugby Vs France!
      ITV have horse racing from England.
      ITV 4 has England’s football match with Cameroon from 1990? WTF.
      If you are unwilling to be force fed English Sport past and present for your Scottish licence fee/tax, you can pay Amazon Prime to see Scottish rugby!
      I’m a Scot with heredity. Get me out of here!

    25. SOG says:

      It reminds me of the old allegation about newly-independent nations –

      One man, one vote, once.

    26. robert graham says:

      Well here’s me thinking the topic was Fitbaw and Scotland progressing for a change , but it seems a lot of folks are still stuck on the current SNP leadership well that particular sore point has been done to death most folk here agree that there is a big big problem and some really good ideas on how this ship filled with independence supporting passengers get it back on course.

      A whole lot of people still filled with hope and energy minus a trusted leadership the whole YES movement is fragmented separate groups all doing their own thing when you think of it this YES movement is far bigger than the current SNP but it’s not one entity and speaks with many voices , the SNP have been allowed to box everyone into a corner , they were trusted so no one bothered thinking about alternatives , so here we are high and bloody dry with only one party to vote for and that party don’t seem to be following the script not only not following it they seem to have a totally different idea of what the majority have been led to believe was the plan .

      I am glad I stopped financing this the current management and the the ideas they seem to be following I don’t remember being sold this particular Turkey after the first failed attempt at attempting to break from English domination and let’s face it total subjugation because most Scots have been indoctrinated into believing we all are incapable of running a country all the normal controls we need to move forward are and have been withheld in order to make certain our efforts are doomed to failure so our government takes all the Blame it was a trap our politicians were lured into believing they were in control , Mugs short sighted bloody fools and we believed they were doing well and were above Westminsters obvious failings and corruption .

    27. James Che. says:

      Where are we now at this moment in time?
      England’s government says no to section 30, and will continue to do so.
      Snp keep repeating question to England’s government, and perhaps being deliberately blinkerd for agendas of their own.
      The snp have closed all communications down between its members and the grass roots independence movement,
      Westminster acting as English government only, breaking many of the 1707 treaty of the union acts,
      Snp not working for the people’s sovereignty in Scotland or England, in fact they are looking like the same the mob as in 1707 whom tried selling Scotland, but sold themselves for English gold
      instead. England blocks Scotland’s voice.
      And England blocks Scotland’s voice in the devolved parliament, with thousands of civil servants and infiltration of snp.
      Corruption is rife in both governments.
      We have a few months on the outset to remedy this situation.
      So where do we go from here, if any and all political parties are ignoring our political voice, if most legal judgements like the 2014 referendum, Sewell convention for example or Brexit are always in favour of the establishment?
      We have to recognise that all legalities are usually set up to benefit the political establishment, both in England and Scotland.
      All Scottish people as a nation, Due to the default of a power struggle between many factions hundreds of years ago, accidentally became sovereign, which produced “The treaty of Arbroath”, for the people of Scotland.
      This treaty did not include Wales, Ireland, England, Catalan or any other country, it is Unique in its existence, one of a kind, and it is a international treaty,
      It has been the Bain of England for a long time.
      And although England tries to dismiss this international treaty, they also recognise it legally, through
      the claim of right, again Unique to Scotland, one of a kind.
      This is where our strength lies as a nation of sovereign people, above all governments or monarchies,
      When watching the old black and white film of the coronation of the new queen Elizabeth, we note that a separate coronation procedure was done in Scotland compared to England, Wales and Ireland, we also note that the Scottish crown was offered to the new queen Elizabeth as a token, but she did not wear the crown of Scotland, nor go through the procedure of a full coronation,
      Perhaps the new queen could not be legally crowned queen over the sovereign people of Scotland.
      It also begs the question why England felt it had to do this procedure in Scotland only, and not in Ireland or wales.
      Queen Elizabeth is not the queen of the sovereign Scottish people. only the queen of a British state as it stands according to the treaty of the union, in which we the sovereign Scottish people make up the other half.
      These are our strengths, this is our sovereignty, we are Unique as a people, as a nation, in our position in this modern world,
      Are we to allow Holyrude or Westminster to tell us we are not, or to let them decide the future of our precious and rare sovereignty,
      We must act on our own behalf as sovereign people, we must display and assert our sovereignty for all the world to see, and let them see, that we the sovereign Scottish people do not give our sovereignty to Holyrude or Westminster, or any political party,
      This is our get out the back door legal circumstance, let’s not ignore it at our peril.

    28. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi James Che.

      What came out of Arbroath in 1320 was a “Declaration”, confirming the (existing) Sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

      It wasn’t a “Treaty”, as no other nation was involved in the declaration.

    29. Effijy says:

      Thanks for the link Brian but I’m
      Not so secure in downloading an App
      surrounded by Asian Babes in my area.

      The wife may not be too pleased if they
      delivered a double order.

      Why oh why can’t I watch my country playing in
      major spirting events in my country on my country’s
      National Broadcaster?

      All things Scottish are being suppressed by the bastards next door!

    30. Cuilean says:

      We have to just keep voting for the pretend SNP ruler, whose ruling is that our nation must just keep asking another nation, our actual rulers, the ruthless and duplicitous British Establishment, to play again. The Murrells don’t understand the British Establishment only want to play when the British Establishment thinks it are going to win.

      There is no appealing to tyrants’ better natures! Just ask Robert The Bruce or Geo Washington or Spartacus, or Dr Martin Luther King.

      The Murrells have led us down a path which is a dead end, a cul de sac. We need to get out of the Murrells’ well feathered cul de sac and back onto the rough & flinty but well trodden highway to Freedom Square.

    31. Lenny Hartley says:

      Effijy Try signing up for a free month on Amazon Prime, then you should be able to get all the Scotland games and thrn cancel the trial!
      I have Amazon Prime anyways , free delivery to Arran mades me swallow my pride and use them. Its out of order the charges some companies charge, i bought a sand blasting cabinet last year,
      They were wanting £90 delivery to Arran, got free 48 hr delivery to my cousins place in Paisley and picked up from there.

    32. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Effijy.

      When I go to that page, the first click on the play arrow creates one pop-up page. Just close it. Second click plays the stream.

      The first click on the full-screen icon (bottom right) creates another pop-up window. Close it. Second click on the icon gives you full-screen – bra’ on the telly!

    33. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      And there are no visible ads full-screen.

    34. Tinto Chiel says:

      Confining myself just to football, I sense a totally different attitude from the present Scottish team, so unlike the players of previous generations like Auld, Miller, McLeish, McCoist, etc who actually campaigned against their country’s independence.

      It helps big Dykes is Australian-born because he doesn’t give a flying fruitbat about any opposition and brings a cringeless positivity and belief to his play, while this young man shows he really cares about his country** and isn’t afraid to show his feelings in this extraordinary interview:

      **Hint: it ain’t Britain.

    35. Beaker says:

      @Marie Clark says:
      14 November, 2020 at 7:23 am
      “Haha, Well done Chris. I think that’s there’s a few of us would like to embrace that slimy wee toad Gove like that.”

      Make sure you are wearing waterproofs… and keep the sanitiser spray handy…

    36. Terry says:

      Lesley riddoch holding Ian Blackford feet to the fire on auob. Judging by the comments folk are wising up to things.

    37. Marie Clark says:

      Always Beaker always.

    38. Effijy says:

      Scotland being beaten by Italy up until the 67th minute.
      Ahead now 21-17 with 10 mins left.

      Our sports men appear to be mastering the art of winning ugly.

      I’ll take that in Indy Ref 2 and be very happy with it!

      ( All reports via BBC Westminster in Scotland. The voice of England)

    39. Effijy says:

      Genius Brian,


      Better than Shortbread Radio

    40. Effijy says:

      Victory for Scotland over the Azzuri 17-28.
      Well done for another late win.

    41. Tartanpigsy says:

      IB was very much on the defensive but not for changing tack

    42. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re Auob anybody having problems logging in, i signed up, however when i try to login it says it doest recognise my password (i know its right) and when i ask to change password, no emails received, yes i have checked my junk folder.

    43. Muscleguy says:

      No more mandates are required for independence referendum are needed. The Post Salmond SNP have wasted far too many already. They will not be getting another one from me. Which is part of why I joined the ISP, the first party I have joined in my nearly 55 years on this planet.

      I am very heavily involved in various ways in the ISP so invsted am I since they are much more devoted to Independence than the current day SNP. The I in our name tells you that.

    44. Contrary says:

      AUOB Assembly : Ian Blackford not terribly popular, Lesley Riddoch fantastic with her questioning though so he didn’t bore us to sleep. Comments section to the side of presentations very useful 🙂 I have to keep it short though 🙁

    45. Confused says:

      Scotland’s victory against Serbia and procession to the Euro finals may be in doubt

      – according to the FM the victory was a fine “first mandate” but that she hoped we could win a further triple locked gold standard mandate and would be seeking the permission of the English FA in doing so.

      – the victory may also be in doubt itself as the Serbs had found some Postal Goals, in the back of a skip, Scotland clearly losing by a margin of 123,000 – 1

      the team has come under criticism from progressive commentators (“arseholes on twitter”?) for lacking gender balance, being achingly white and without representation of the trans community

      team selection in future will be open to all, even non-scots (as the nationalism-thing is a bit “blood and soil”) via a 10 part questionaire, administered by a committee comprising stonewall, and random lesbians; the fitness requirement was also seen as discriminatory as fat acceptance has come a long way; furthermore, “meritocracy” and being actually good at things, is seen as a dogwhistle for the far right and the patriarchy.

      The new Scotland strip comes in a variety of rainbow designs and the crotchless rubber shorts, a charmingly daring addition.

    46. Al-Stuart says:

      Christopher Cairns,

      That, sir, is a very cruel cartoon.

      Michael Gove may be a disposable slice of dog excrement on the foot of humanity , but it is a fact that the he helped get rid of Dominic Cummings. Here is incontrovertible proof…

      This link is supplied from the academic work of the University of Tout Savoir de la Twat.

      It is an important educational thesis link that you must look at to prove the veracity of my neurological prowess. I was bitten by the spider BrodicusB Brodicus and have subsequently developed super powers in link provision. You’re welcome. 😉

    47. twathater says:

      The FRUSTRATING thing is we have 1 person DECIDING but ABSOLUTELY NOT moving on independence for a country populated by 5.2 million people where at LEAST 2.7 million of these people want independence,THAT is NOT democratic so HOW do WE the people overcome that

      Robert Black QC, Bailey, and ANY other legal experts who believe in SCOTLAND’S independence and who read WOS PLEASE help US find a way out of this clusterfuck we BADLY NEED HELP I cannot in good concience vote SNP in it’s present form

      Is it possible for 100 normal Scottish citizens to take our case to the ICJ or the ECJ to challenge our sovereignty being usurped and misused, if not can you suggest a route that could bypass the stranglehold we are currently being subjected to . All suggestions gratefully received

    48. Asklair says:

      At AUOB Assembly, really good, well not for some individuals, good for the grassroots movement. Quote from AUOB Assembly:
      Peter Young
      35 minutes ago
      If SNP candidates and staff can’t participate in sessions without bad-mouthing Wings and bring up petty disagreements with supporters of Plan B, stay on mute. Most people have come here today looking for positivity and out of frustration with the SNP, don’t make it worse.

    49. Effijy says:

      I decided to watch a movie on Sky.
      Ah, there is one I’ll try, Robert the Bruce.
      Outline of the Story given as the Bruce goes
      On the run from the BRITISH? FFS

      Hope it finishes on time for a concert by the English National Orchestra?

      You know if Jeremy Clarkson needs an impossible question to answer
      for the £1 Million prize, just as them to name the country starting with an
      S that is closest to England.

      I’m sure Sweden Switzerland or Spain who be chosen by any Britnat.

    50. CameronB Brodie says:

      In order to expand their vote base, the SNP had to play at British constitutionalism. Unfortunately, it appears that the SNP have adopted this parochial and exceptional approach to the law and human rights, as if it defines the legal universe. So they are now pretty much indistinguishable from the BritNat parties, as their power-base is simultaneously secured and constrained by Westminster’s law diktat. Which is divorced from the Natural law and moral reason, as well as lacking coherence with international law, so is unable to support democracy and public health.

      If only the NEC were competent to support democracy, and had not been infiltrated by hard-core science deniers, Scotland might not be getting dragged out of the EU. And in a manner specifically prohibited by the Treaty of Union, i.e. English majoritarianism. Which is likely to cause significant harm to our economy, as well as the nature and quality of our social fabric and environment.

      So here’s a look at “The Right of Self-Determination in the Twenty-First Century”, as we simply can’t trust our legal officers with the health or security of our nation. Or the justiciability of Scots law.

      “One can address the right of self-determination from a number of different perspectives. For example, the exercise of this right in the past decade has had a dramatic effect on theories of international organizations, the role of force, and conflict resolution. Claims of self-determination led in part to the destruction of the former Yugoslavia, and the specter of secessionist movements has magnified the attention given to the rights of minorities and indigenous peoples.

      In the following discussion, I will link self-determination to human rights in two different ways. First, I explore self-determination as a human right, addressing issues of content and definition. Second, I discuss the impact of self-determination claims on other human rights.”

    51. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Check out the replies to this tweet by Leslie Evans:

      Aside from the obvious references to the Salmond-shaped elephant in the room and frequent calls for her to just GTF, she’s also being castigated for making ministerial-sounding pronouncements, and not for the first time.

      Absolutely brutal. Not a shred of support to be found.

      I honestly don’t believe she’ll appear in front of the committee again. Even she must be able to see she’s about as popular as an eggy dog fart in a taxi. She’ll say she’s got covid symptoms or suchlike.

    52. susanXX says:

      Nice one Confused @3:32pm

    53. Republicofscotland says:

      Ian @4.49pm.

      Thanks for the link Ian, yes Evans is taking a deserved beating on that thread and rightly so. She should take the hint and do the right thing and resign as many have called on her to do.

      Its the likes of her and MacKinnon, Sturgeon and Murrell and a few other rotten apples within the SNP/government that are trying to kill the dream of Scottish independence.

      Evans has a bloody cheek trying to preach on that thread of tolerance and understanding, and how we should all be kind to each other, knowing fine well her part in attempting to send an innocent man to prison for many years.

    54. kapelmeister says:

      Ian B @4:49

      Thanks for that Ian. Some entertaining replies.

      There should be a World Honesty Day too. Evans would stay well away from that.

    55. Republicofscotland says:

      Pete Wishart spouting his usual bollocks, this man definitely doesn’t want to see Scotland become independent.

      “The thing is the ‘plan B’ of a plebiscite offers the Tories a ’Super Boris Veto’ and let’s him off the referendum hook.”

    56. Republicofscotland says:

      Reading the majority of replies to Ian Blackford on Twitter on several threads, on blaming Westminster for Scotland not being independent yet, it would appear people have seen through this wretch of man, and know that he like his boss is a fraud, and a charlatan.

    57. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. petitioning international courts. I think the ECJ would be the natural first call, as we remain under the EU’s legal jurisdiction until the end of the year. Though it would probably be best for this to be handled, or at least guided, by someone who is reasonably competent in law.

      Charter of Fundamental Rights and Freedoms

      Article 18 (1) The right of petition is guaranteed; in matters of public or other common interest, everyone has the right, on her own or together with other individuals, to address state bodies or territorial self-governing bodies with requests, proposals, or complaints. (2) Petitions may not be misused to interfere with the independence of the courts. (3) Petitions may not be misused for the purpose of calling for the violation of the fundamental rights and freedoms guaranteed by this Charter.

      Citizens’ rights
      Article 44 – Right to petition

      Any citizen of the Union and any natural or legal person residing or having its registered office in a Member State has the right to petition the European Parliament.

    58. Sandy says:

      For amusement.
      Watching news. Warning- (instead of) This government report contains flash photography, this government report contains lies.

      Boom, boom.

    59. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s “An overview of the case law on the prohibition of discrimination of the ECJ and the ECtHR”, which I think pertinent to the discriminatory and exclusionary approach to the law that is favoured by both our parliaments.

      “….The European Union has adopted a wide range of provisions aiming to prevent discriminatory conduct. Article 13 of the Treaty on the functioning of the European Union (TFEU) allows EU institutions to “take appropriate action to combat discrimination based on sex, racial or ethnic origin, religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation”.

      Thus, the European Council and the European Parliament have adopted several directives to implement the principle of equal treatment through the prohibition of gender-based discrimination (Gender Equality Directive N° 2006/54/EC and directive N° 79/7/EEC of 19 December 1978 on the progressive implementation of the principle of equal treatment for men and women in matters of social security), and racial discrimination (Racial Equality Directive n° 2000/43/EC), as well as a discrimination based on age, disability, religion and belief and sexual orientation (Employment Equality Directive N° 2000/78/EC)….”

    60. kapelmeister says:

      Repofscot @5:28

      Wishart and Blackford are making so much bread being at westminster.

      They know all the words to Flour of Scotland.

    61. MaggieC says:

      Ian B @4.49 pm

      Re Leslie Evans , she’s been called to appear before the committee this Tuesday ,
      Committee on the Scottish Government Handling of Harassment Complaints ,

      The Committee will next meet on Tuesday 17 November at 9.30am (public session from 10.15am), when it will take evidence from the Lord Advocate and the Permanent Secretary. “

      Public papers for the meeting ,

      And also this has been posted ,

      The Deputy First Minister responded to the Convener’s letters of 6 and 10 November on 13 November 2020 (this letter has also been published on the main correspondence page):

    62. CameronB Brodie says:

      Last one from me, but I think this guide to “THE EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS – QUESTIONS & ANSWERS FOR LAWYERS”, might prove instructive as to just how compromised our government and judicial system is.

      “….However, as the Guide rightly addresses the subject of proceedings at national level before the Court’s international jurisdiction is brought into play, I can discern a wider reach for it, in particular among national judges, prosecutors and other participants in the administration of justice.

      In more concrete terms, the Guide justly encourages lawyers to test their clients’ arguments under the European Convention on Human Rights (“the Convention”) before the national authorities and, by doing so, to involve them in the interpretation and application of the Convention….”

    63. Beaker says:

      @Sandy says:
      14 November, 2020 at 5:33 pm
      “For amusement.
      Watching news. Warning- (instead of) This government report contains flash photography, this government report contains lies.
      Boom, boom.”

      True Lies – where one half of the partnership is a secret agent leading a double life.

      ‘When he said I do, he never said what he did…”
      ‘When SHE said I do, she never said what she did…”

      I’ll see myself out…

    64. Asklair says:

      “We could be… in less than six months… have ballot boxes for independence, at the most legal and international recognised event that’s going to happen in Scotland, for I don’t know how long.”

    65. Republicofscotland says:

      US and UK security services gear up to take out any website that questions the validity or effectiveness of Pfizers or other Covid-19 vaccines.

    66. Dan says:

      More on PPE procurement.

      @ ROS

      You mentioning the shutting down of sites reminded me that I noticed the following account has been suspended. This twitter feed was quite prolific in covering the various international networks and individuals behind Vote Leave etc.

    67. CameronB Brodie says:

      OK, I said that was the last from me, but here’s a look at “COVID-19 vaccine research and development: ethical issues”, from the European Journal of Tropical Medicine and International Health.

      “The achievements of vaccine research and development bring a hope to our societies that we may cope with the COVID?19 pandemic. There are two aspects that should be maintained in balance: the immediate necessity for speed of vaccine research and the inherent need for protection of research subjects, which is the foremost concern of research ethics. This narrative review highlights ethical issues in COVID?19 vaccine research and development that every stakeholder needs to be aware of and to consider.”

    68. Effijy says:

      TV guide for this evening for all Scots

      Saving England’s pubs
      Dad’s Army
      English National Orchestra Concert
      Great British Towns- London
      My Yorkshire Farm.

    69. Pete says:

      You seem to be blind to BBC Scotland
      You can watch Billy Connolly and Rab C Nesbitt for starters along with various nature programmes.
      I hate it but my wife prefers Strictly.
      Your hatred of all things British/ English demeans you greatly.

    70. Pete says:

      I forgot.
      There’s also BBC Alba.

    71. Pete says:


    72. Lenny Hartley says:

      Apologies if this has been posted before some interesting discussion i found via google this afternoon.

    73. Dan says:

      Pete says: at 7:26 pm

      Your hatred of all things British/ English demeans you greatly.

      Expressing ones dissatisfaction with the programs on the telly does not equate to hatred.
      We are all humans with a range of emotional responses which are triggered by various differing stimuli.
      For example: I like a bit of Stilton cheese and have been known to eat the odd Melton Mowbray pie now and then, but this does not mean I love all things from England.

      At this moment I have prescribed myself a second tin of Guinness to self medicate and treat the PTSD (Post Triumph Stress Disorder) and Tourettes I am suffering from after spending the day locating yet more “British” classic car shite and attempting to build one working cunting cylinder head for a fuckin TR7 out of half a dozen corroded, worn out pieces of shit.
      A Triumph of engineering? Hardly, a more apt name would be A Fookin Bastardin Disaster! But that was probably a less marketable (but far more honest) badge for the vehicle to be adorned with.

      But these fleeting negative emotions triggered by working on a car originating from the Kingdom to the south of my current location do not make me hate everything from that place, for if it did I would hate my own mother and extended family.

      PS. If you know anyone that has a 3.1mm and a 3.25mm thick valve shim for the wedge shaped piece of excrement please let me know. 😉

    74. Pete says:

      I just love your posts.

    75. JGedd says:

      Effijy @ 7.19pm

      Come on. ENO singing Mozart? You know, Mozart, great composer – and Austrian? I don’t care who is singing it – this is not Great British Bake Off, or Great British Rip Off or whatever.

      The Mozart Requiem is a great universal masterpiece. I watched it. It was an excellent performance which transcends any shallow point-scoring.

    76. @Pete,

      this from the founder of the SNP nearly 100 years ago,

      “The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination.”

      it has never been about hating England it has been, from the start, about Scottish emancipation from the Brutish State.

    77. Effijy says:


      Agreed on Mozart but do you know the Scottish National Orchestra
      Has all the same instruments, music sheets and a conductor.

      How nice if they were employed to perform it in Scotland for a
      Scottish TV Channel.

    78. Effijy says:

      I do not hate all things English but I do love most things Scottish.
      We are constantly being Anglo-filed.
      England can go enjoy their football, rugby, cricket etc on their TV
      but we can’t.
      I expect and demand the right to access Scottish sport in Scotland.

      There has been at least 10 times English Football internationals on
      Our terrestrial channels than Scottish games.

      England’s presenter Gary Linaker gets more money from the BBC gives Scottish Football.
      I don’t dislike the guy but we go without and our TV licence money goes
      to a millionaire retired football player who can read auto queue?

    79. crazycat says:

      @ Dan at 8.05

      I used to have a pal who knew everything there was to know about TRs (and a lot of other similar vehicles). I lost touch with him several years ago, and the only on-line presence I can find has no date, but for what it’s worth:

      (If you google his business, all you’ll find is his previous address, in – wait for it – Balfron.)

    80. crazycat says:

      @ Dan at 8.05

      ps – I’ve now found a reference to him from last year, so he might still be in business. If so, he’s likely to have a lot of bits available. I suspect he doesn’t share my political views though.

    81. Bob Mack says:


      Lotus or early Saab might fit.

    82. Lizg says:

      Are there really Cruise Ships anchored on the Clyde?
      I know there was talk of this back in march but have heard not a word since ?

    83. Dan says:

      @ crazycat

      Thanks, but I now know all I need or want to know about Triumphs, basically don’t go near them with a barge pole, for they have been designed by the mind of the clinically insane, with the engineering prowess of a primate throwing its shit at a tree thinking it is making a structure akin to yon marble carver Francesco Queirolo’s masterpiece Il Disinganno.

      I was even warning the young apprentice at the garage yesterday about the hazards of quaffing a couple of bottle of cider of an evening whilst perusing Gumtree or Ebay for “bargains” and thinking that buying any “British” “Classic” was ever a good idea.
      If humans are to continue to evolve for the better, then his generation should not ever have to be exposed or endure the time wasting folly of attempting to rebuild the utter crap our previous generations “built”.
      There is more to life than roaming the land for months raking through crazy old people’s sheds trying to find usable parts made out of metal that seems to fizz away with more vigour than an alka-seltzer.

      Just pulled the camshaft another couple of times to “finesse” the valve shimming. Got 5 on the money now with just 3 to go.
      I use the word finesse rather than adjust because the shims are made out of such shit soft metal that they wear on the contact areas making accurately measuring their thickness to calculate what size you need to replace it with to get the correct clearance impossible.
      You don’t have to put up with this shit with VWs…

    84. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dan (10.26) –

      Rarely have I felt someone’s pain and laughed so hard simultaneously.


    85. McDuff says:

      You are right on.
      Everything in Scotland is English. I got a 1967 Birmingham copy of the Radio Times and in that issue were four popular programs from Scotland, with a Scottish content with Scottish entertainers and made and produced in Scotland. We used to have a big televised Scottish folk scene airing our wonderful music and song. Now we are down to a few wildlife programs that are networked across the UK with 99% output being English.
      I remember when we had four proper Scottish supermarket chains, now all gone, eaten up by the big English stores which are used to dump English produce on Scottish consumers.
      We had two car industries now gone, guess where the remaining ones are located.
      Everywhere I go its English accents, instore radio stations like the coop, Debenhams T K Max etc self service check outs, covid announcements in malls.
      And yes, then there is sport, Saturday night and Sunday morning English football, we apparently do not have a league of our own. And it is outrageous that the English National side are beamed into Scottish homes for free when we have to pay to watch our side.
      I know this is a rant but it is a justified rant.
      Would the English accept the situation if the position was reversed. We know the answer to that.

    86. MaggieC says:

      Dan @ 8.05 pm

      “ PS. If you know anyone that has a 3.1mm and a 3.25mm thick valve shim for the wedge shaped piece of excrement please let me know.

      I’ve asked my husband who has a garage full of engine “ bits “ but unfortunately there’s no valve shims in amongst all the “ bits “ , We’ve got a friend who is involved with classic car clubs and I’ll try to get in touch with him tomorrow to see if he can help . I don’t know if this link is of any use to you

      It might be worth giving them a phone and hopefully they can help you, Hope you enjoyed your Guinness LOL .

    87. crazycat says:

      @ Dan at 10.26

      Fair enough, but if you ever really do want any bits, my former pal might be able to help.

    88. Iain More says:

      Should it not be both Murrels in the that instead of Gove becasue it is the

    89. Dan says:

      Last post on the TR matter.
      Cheers for offers of assistance. However, this cylinder head is the 6th one I located but the first in usable condition, I therefore know where 5 other crap heads are in my locality so should be able to source shimage from these part donors.


    90. Iain More says:


      Should it not be both Murrels in the above instead of Gove because it is the Murrels heel dragging that means we will never see another Referendum. There is a greater chance of us qualifying for the next WC and even winning it than us getting another Referendum whilst Surgeon is in charge.

    91. Effijy says:


      Yes there are cruise liners on the Clyde.
      Azimara have 3 of their ships breathed in Glasgow
      clearly visible from Braehead shopping centre.

      Many of the cruise companies have conceded the ships will not be able to sail
      again before April.

      Even if a vaccine was available in the new year it would be short notice
      assembling staff, booking ports and trying to sell it with just a couple of weeks notice.

      Many Travel agencies have closed for good and many agents now unemployed.
      No industry hit harder by Covid.

    92. Craig Murray says:

      While I love Chris Cairns’ cartoons, I fear he is a little like Paul Kavanagh in resolutely refusing to address the elephant in a room, which is the plain lack of interest of the SNP leadership in making any move to secure Independence.

    93. Lizg says:

      Effigy @11.08
      Thanks for that.. 🙂
      Was talking to friends and they said they’d seen ships…..and I did wonder
      I knew a Winger would know 🙂 xxx

    94. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If this place should happen to ‘disappear’ without any obvious reason, some of us have already established another wee place to regroup.

    95. Famous15 says:

      Like many above,I am not anti English,but when most of the voices in the media and in shops are not Scottish I fear for the perception it gives particularly to the young.

      I had a friend who raved on about cultural imperialism being bad for the self esteem of our children but I do worry about the gaslighting effect this has just as I worry about the wall to wall Union jackery in our shops undermining ‘Scotland THE Brand’.

      Many years ago I served on staff selection committees and it was common for some members to favour English candidates because “they spoke nicer”. For a while I thought we had dispelled that assessment of merit but I fear it is creeping back.

    96. Hatuey says:

      The hottest places in Hell are reserved for those who in time of moral crisis preserve their neutrality…

      Attributed to Dante

    97. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This is an important covid-related link, posted by Tinto Chiel on the previous thread.

    98. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      That’s the sort of critical view of government that is needed to keep the spivs who run the PM, in check. Nice one. 😉

      click the blue link under the “Documents” heading, for the download.

    99. @Lizg at 10.26pm: This web-site may be of interest to you: It shows three cruise liners berthed at Shieldhall. Incidentally, on my last crossing of the Forth Bridge, I saw huge cruise liners berthed at Rosyth Dockyard, no doubt for the same reasons.

    100. Hatuey says:

      Not wishing to unnecessarily depress anyone in Glasgow – well, okay, you probably know by now that I quite like doing that – but I’m getting the distinct impression covid-19 is out of control right now. It’s exceedingly grim, to be honest, grave.

      I hardly knew anyone that caught it during the first wave. Now I know plenty.

      They need to close schools. Bastards.

    101. MaggieC says:

      Hatuey @ 1.08 am

      This was from the Herald on Friday where they’ve listed the 100 areas in Scotland with the highest number of cases of covid-19 ,

      “ Coronavirus: Scotland’s 100 Covid cases hotspots revealed “

      Glasgow had 48 out of the top 100 neighbourhoods in Scotland with the most Covid-19 cases between 4 November and 10 November. When analysing data from the Scottish government, looking at a breakdown of localised coronavirus cases in council areas across the country, it shows hotspots of Covid-19 per 100,000 of the population and the risk in each neighbourhood.

      However, the council area with the most cases of Covid-19 is Glasgow City with 1,840 positive cases which works out at 290.6 per 100,000 people. Out of the 100 neighbourhoods with the highest cases of Covid19, 48 come from Glasgow and the rest are spread out mainly through the Central Belt. For example, Scotland had 7,971 positive cases between 4 November and 10 November, which was 145.9 cases per 100,000 population.

      I expect that most of the central belt areas are going to be raised into level 4 lockdown this week . What annoys me about this the most when I’m out shopping are the amount of people who are totally ignoring the guidance about staying 2 metres apart , I’m fed up having to tell people when they get too close to me in shops and they all seem to think that they can just ignore it . Your also right about the schools as where I am all the children from secondary schools are all going about in big groups together , they seem to think that the guidance isn’t for them . You cannot blame the children from primary schools as they see their parents all standing together waiting at the school gates for them .

      We’ve even had neighbours with three or four cars of visitors all going into their house at the same time just ignoring the guidance as well .

      I’m angry about the situation now as the majority of people who have followed the guidelines are now going to be put into lockdown because of the selfish idiots who have caused this and they are the ones who are causing the rise in the number of cases and infecting vulnerable people .

    102. A Person says:

      There will be serious dissent if Glasgow is placed into a lockdown. As Maggie says, younger folk are just flat-out ignoring it. If restrictions are tightened they’ll just ignore them too, so If it was up to me I’d leave it as it is. Public tolerance of it has collapsed.

      More generally, I have been looking at way too much social media and newspapers this week and get the distinct impression something has changed wrt Scottish politics. All of a sudden people are questioning the government’s record and intentions. Is this just my imagination or selection bias?

    103. Effijy says:

      I’d better get this out quick according to the BBC.
      Labour has agreed to back the Tories in banning
      any anti vaccine information on line.

      Remember how they say freedom of speech is so important to them?

      They claim misinformation on line should become a criminal offence.

      Does plastering £350 Million extra to the NHS with Brexit count?

      Does the whole raft of promises made by Westminster’s Vow Count?

      What about driving 30 miles being the new eye test?

      Westminster day by day drags us toward the dystopian society of 1984.

      Was anything ever written more horrific than not being able to protest with
      your last breath?

      Scotland must break away from the immorality, corruption and suppression
      imposed upon us from another country.

      PS Stick your rushed through inadequately tested vaccine where the sun doesn’t shine on your Empire!

    104. Willie says:

      Just to change the tack a little if I may I have just been reading reports that Keir Starmer’s shadow ministers are calling for financial and criminal penalties for social media companies that fail to censor posts promoting anti-vaccination content, which they note is rampant on those platforms.

      Consistent with Humza Yousaf’s Hate Crime Bill the headlong rush to censorship is gaining pace. Comments like this remind us why we rejected New Labour. But unfortunately much of the SNP leadership has now become exactly the same.

      And in that, ex Labour, and now SNP health minister Jeanne Freeman has highly progressed plans to release smart identity cards under the guise of health cards that will retain individual’s biometric data to be used as a ‘ Pass Card ‘ for access to public spaces – offices, shops, museums, trains, planes etc etc.

      All in the name of health you realise. To keep us safe from the unvaccinated you realise. Economic and social apartheid married to Uber state surveillance ……it’s here. But shhh, you mustn’t say a word!

    105. Tom says:

      A. Person @ 7.59am: “All of a sudden people are questioning the government’s record and intentions. Is this just my imagination or selection bias?”

      I agree, I think something is changing. Twice this week (OK, not overwhelming evidence!) I’ve had conversations with people well beyond our Yes community who have shown a surprising level of interest in, and real knowledge of, the Harassment Enquiry and the implications for Sturgeon; people who are also questioning government spin on the Covid crisis. I was picking none of this up from these same people just a few months ago.

      How has this come about? Is there more reporting on the issues in the MSM than we Yessers, being a bit in our own communication bubble, suppose?

      Anyway, I suspect the days of uncritical admiration for Sturgeon, carefully curated by the SNP, are over.

    106. Hatuey says:

      A Person, I think you’re misrepresenting what Maggie said. She talked about school kids, not young people.

      I see what’s happening as a failure of government strategy. The tier system doesn’t work. I don’t think any of these partial lockdown measures work while you have schools open. Glasgow has been In partial lockdown for months and the disease has continued to spread.

      I don’t think you can blame Glasgow. A lot of it can be explained in population density terms. In densely populated areas where schools are open, it’s going to spread regardless of other measures.

      The apparent plateauing we had earlier in November can be explained by the lag effect and school holidays in October. I predicted last week that it wouldn’t last and that numbers would start to rise again from around the 10th. Here we are.

      Schools, schools, schools.

    107. Hatuey says:

      Tom, two things are happening which explain what you’re seeing.

      1) Sturgeon is filibustering everything with covid-19 crowbarred into every answer she gives on every subject.

      2) the tier system and lockdown measures aren’t working, the situation is worsening.

    108. MarB says:

      hi don’t know if you are aware, you are mentioned on an article on

      The oblivious Nicola Sturgeon and alphabet women.

    109. Colin Alexander says:

      The people of Scotland are sovereign. Scotland’s people have given the SNP mandate after mandate to keep Scotland in the EU and deliver another indyref. The SNP have given us nothing but broken promises, followed by more empty promises of jam the morra.

      The SNP are a disgrace. Their purpose was to assert the sovereignty of the people of Scotland to re-establish a sovereign Scottish state.

      The SNP have become colonial administrators. Career politicians.
      Bending the knee to the “sovereignty” of England’s Crown in England’s Parliament (re-branded as the UK Parliament).

    110. Republicofscotland says:

      This man must be held to account on this claim.

      “IT’s the signal Yessers have been waiting for – Indyref2 is coming and it will come next year, according to the SNP’s leader at Westminster, the most senior figure to confirm when it will happen.”

    111. Effijy says:

      NB. I have been sent a poor quality picture of an e-Mail
      Which of course could be fake but seems to be correctly
      structured, which advises that it looks very likely that the
      First Minister will make announcements on Tuesday that
      will impose further lockdown restrictions now at the highest
      Level 4.

      This will take effect as of Friday the 20th November.

      As best I can make out it names Glasgow City, East Renfrewshire,
      All the regions of Ayrshire, North & South Lanarkshire, West & East Dunbartonshire
      Inverclyde and Stirling.

      I personal think this has merit as the current restrictions are not having enough of an impact.

      Can’t make out enough to give further detail but would the hope be to lower the restrictions
      4 weeks later in hope of having families together for Xmas?

      Pubs and restaurants will recoil in fear about their future with such a decision but can we put
      Having a pint before the nations health?

      People will have their families over for Xmas no matter what and inevitably the Covid stats will
      Increase again in January.

      Bad Bacteria, Boris and Brexit.
      God help us!

    112. Republicofscotland says:

      Dan @6.47pm.

      Dan thank you for the info, yes, there have been questions surrounding Pfizer’s vaccine, which is claimed to be 90% effective but information has been scant on which group of people, the elderly the young, ethnic minorities that it has been effective on.

      Pfizer has been fined billion of dollars for illegal practices and children have died using their medicines, there’s so much cash on offer for the firm that produces a vaccine for Covid-19, that corners are being cut.

    113. Daisy Walker says:

      The latest questions and results Poll by Scot Goes Pop is incredible.

      And it makes the lack of campaigning by the SNP re the threat to Holyrood/Brexit/Internal Market Bill UTTERLY unforgivable and inexcusable.

      Here is a little of what he has posted. The break down is more important than the overall results (even though those are nice).

      ‘If Scotland does not become an independent country over the next ten years, and if the Conservatives remain in power at Westminster, which of the following three outcomes do you think is most likely?

      The UK Conservative government will substantially reduce the Scottish Parliament’s powers: 55%
      The UK Government will abolish the Scottish Parliament altogether: 22%

      of greatest concern to unionist  is fears over the future of devolution very much extend to coalition of support that delivered No vote in 2014,

      74% of Labour voters,

      77% of Liberal Democrat voters,

      67% of No voters from 2014, and

      59% of people who are currently minded to vote No again, expect that Holyrood will be diminished or abolished over the coming decade. 

      Tories – they’ve lost sight of the fact that the militant core of unionism is only a minority of the Scottish population, and that the pro-devolution majority are listening to the rhetoric as well. 
      If the UK Conservative government substantially reduces the powers of the Scottish Parliament or abolishes the Scottish Parliament altogether, would you be more likely or less likely to support Scotland becoming an independent country?

      More likely: 69%
      Less likely: 31%

      Once again, it’s not just the Yes die-hards who are saying they would be more likely to back independence in that scenario – so are

      71% of Labour voters,

      59% of Liberal Democrat voters,

      50% of people who voted No six years ago,

      32% of those who would currently vote No, and even

      27% of Conservative voters.  ‘


      More than anything the above information tells us, the Yessers, what information we need to highlight in order to get folk to Vote For Indy.

      And incidentally – I think

      Vote For Indy

      (as apposed to IndyRef2) should now be a slogan. Much more flexible don’t you think?

    114. Contrary says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 12.20am

      That article from the BMJ seems to be fairly accurate, and it’s good to hear good and critical reflection on how badly governments are doing.

      I’ve believed for a few months now that, once the immediate crisis is past, there will be a lot of angry citizens in all the western democracies, ready to bring down their governments. With England and Scotland being less, ahem, hot-blooded, that anger might just be a whimper, but in many countries I think we’ll see a lot of changes in the near future.

      Neoliberalism is a macro-economical ideology – the one where you hear ‘market forces’ talked about, and money markets are thought of the pinnacle of economic thought; the warped version of capitalism that makes private industry the controller and governments who are barely bothering to regulate them for the sole purpose so them and their pals can get more wealth – the elite. There can be no fairness under this system under any circumstances. And why have government at all if they can’t even be bothered to run our public services? Anarchy would be far better than this. But nearly all western democracies buy into the neoliberal ideology. This includes the Scottish government – just look at who they have appointment to the new Scottish national investment bank board as an example. Huh, such high hopes, again, crumbled to dust.

      Part of that ideology makes governments think its fine to screw us over, again, when they see an opportunity, like the Covid crisis. We can’t do much while the disease is prevalent, but that might, and should, change when things calm down – the governments won’t help us get rid of this disease though (it’s not in their interests to do so, they just need to suppress it enough), so it is up to you to ensure your own wellbeing.

      My ideal would be that everyone behaved in a way that suppressed spread of the virus, despite government, and then quickly went on to express their anger by tearing those institutions down. I don’t like uncertainty or instability any more – maybe less – than anyone else, but they have crossed a line for me on this one. I believe neoliberalism is dying is last gasping breath, it is a failed ideology and it has caused a lot of suffering (austerity anyone?), and the current pandemic is exposing the ineptitude of government, I hope enough, that it’s will be buried forever.

    115. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood re 24/7 protests…

      Ian in view of the above polling. A 24/7 presence at Holyrood would provide focus and a rallying point for those who want to join.

      But some high profile Pith Helmet ‘flash’ protests outside the Civil Service Edinburgh Hub would certainly highlight the threat. And wouldn’t Pith Helmets be a very strong visual statement.

      We could sell them – £1 each or 2 for a Euro.

      If we get this up and running before Christmas, we can all sing ‘All I want for Christmas is my own country, my own country, my own country’

      Anyway – Vote For Indy – We Can Do So Much Better Than Boris.

    116. willie says:

      Just listened to an Andrew Marr interview this morning with Buster ( of the Vow) Gordon Brown.

      When asked if the people of Scotland could have a referendum he started off to say …” they can’t ” before changing tack to say that it would be inappropriate, economy more important, virus more important.

      He then had a full five minutes describing how we needed to restructure Britain in a new Union. An utter unionist liar to the core and all from a man whose party commands around 13% of the vote in Scotland.

      Somebody needs to take the democracy of a big stick to bastards like Brown. He ain’t no democrat!

    117. Breeks says:

      Tom says:
      15 November, 2020 at 8:59 am

      …..How has this come about? Is there more reporting on the issues in the MSM than we Yessers, being a bit in our own communication bubble, suppose?

      Anyway, I suspect the days of uncritical admiration for Sturgeon, carefully curated by the SNP, are over…

      I think it’s a matter of resonance, combining with a growing impatience.

      A much wider spectrum of people are now asking themselves “why on Earth is Scotland putting up with this?”, and when they go looking for an explanation, they are tripping over Six years of Sturgeon’s tepid inaction, incompetence, and the whole stench of corruption and the control freakery that’s trying it’s best to rig strategy and candidate selection.

      If you look at that as momentum now beginning to overcome inertia, it is probably too late now for the SNP to realign it’s strategy and alter the landscape quietly with minimal disruption. The “ordinary people” are beginning to wake up and take notice of what the political anoraks have been saying for months, while the SNP has simply chosen to ignore all the warning signs.

      In some ways it resembles No to YES movement. It’s pretty much one way traffic. I don’t see the Sturgeon / Evans / Wishart Brigade winning over many converts. They are like a NO voting Unionists… a massive edifice of established opinion that suddenly starts haemorrhaging support. It hasn’t the strength of argument to start winning them back. All it can do is vilify those choosing to leave.

      The SNP really needs to stop the rot fast, and we all need this festering boil of the conspiracy against Alex Salmond properly lanced. That means all the dirt made public.

      I also think a further problem which is being understated, is that if Sturgeon goes, there’s a whole boatload of others who’s coats are all on shoogily pegs. All those tarnished as Wokeratti, all those ambivalent or lukewarm about Independence, and even those who are simply keeping their heads down, will have awkward questions to answer.

      Is the answer a new Party? Well, I think you have to set aside the List Parties as a separate issue, because they’re not presenting themselves as alternatives to the SNP, and for a whole new Party to be the answer means a new Party that’s a full bloodied alternative to the SNP. I just don’t see that happening, nor do I think it’s likely to hoover up the whole SNP vote, leaving an acrimonious hung Parliament. IF that’s the route we choose to follow, I think it only works by “fixing” the SNP.

      The thing is, whether you fix the SNP, or supplant it with an alternative Indy Party, the Holyrood strategy of May Elections, the Scotland Act and Section 30 all share the same predictable trajectory. Everybody is hoping to deliver another democratic mandate, but it’s just the same ‘wildcard’ mandate, an ‘unsecured entity’, if it hasn’t put been secured by Scotland’s National Constitution, which recognises the popular sovereignty of the people.

      I want Scotland to be much smarter than that. We can cut out a huge swathe of this faulty and futile trajectory, and save ourselves a lot of time and frustration.

      It’s not a new Party that’s needed, it’s a new Parliament, with a Constitutional philosophy which has Scottish Sovereignty as it’s nucleus. If the SNP and Holyrood Parliament will not defend Scotland’s Constitutional integrity and sovereignty, then Scotland needs a Parliament and Government which will. It IS that simple.

      In the short term however, I think Scotland needs to thinking more along the lines of declaring a state of Constitutional Emergency, and formulating a challenge to the UK Government’s Unwritten Convention on Parliamentary Sovereignty, and that challenge needs to have enough substance to it that the UN and International Community cannot ignore it.

      There isn’t the time, nor indeed constitutional clarity, for a democratic vote to do that. There has to be a legal test case to establish the legitimacy and ascendancy of Scottish Constitutional Sovereignty. The primary objective is not political, but legal, and legal in International Law, not Domestic. There is no other action to be taken which is more important than this.

      Keep saying it, over and over… Defend Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, because that distinction makes Scotland’s Brexit an act of colonial subjugation contrary to International Law. If Brexit breaks International Law, the EU cannot sign off on Brexit until the UK’s constitutional dispute is resolved, and Westminster is in stasis until it has resolved it’s Hobson’s choice; to conclude it’s own Brexit without Scotland, or abandon Brexit in deference to Scotland having a sovereign veto over the Westminster Government.

      In either event, the 1707 Union is untenable. The UK cannot survive. You want Scottish Independence? There it is.

    118. Hatuey says:

      Effijy, it’s been all over the news for about 5 days.

      The John James article mentioned (I won’t link it) contains a major error;

      “Ms. Lloyd was holidaying in The Maldives when she was informed by Lesley Evans of the Scottish Government’s eleventh hour climbdown. Ms. Evans reassured Ms. Lloyd that even though they had lost the battle, they would win the war.”

      Of course, it was Barbara Allison who Evans sent that text to.

    119. Breastplate says:

      I understand that many people are terrified of the virus with good reason.
      I also understand that many people are not terrified of the virus with good reason.

      Blaming people for not having the same level of fear than you is, I would say unhelpful, especially under the circumstances of mixed messages from the government.

      The goalposts have been moved on several occasions.
      We were used to hearing the daily death toll, now we have to listen to the daily infection rate.
      Surely you can see the difference between 100,000 18yr olds contracting the virus and 100 80yr olds contracting the virus?
      If so, then you will understand that a count of infections alone mean very little.
      If you can’t see the difference, then why are our kids at school?

      Again and it’s unfortunate that I need to keep pointing this out. If anyone does not want to contract the virus they should not expose themselves to the virus, this means isolating.
      It is genuinely not rocket science.

    120. Breastplate says:

      On the subject of an independence referendum can someone explain why a mandate to hold a referendum only counts on the condition that the SNP think we will win it?
      And why can’t we have an independence referendum every term of government with a mandate to hold one?

    121. Breeks says:

      I’ll put it a lot more succinctly.

      You, as a Scottish Citizen need to decide what defines your Nation.

      Is it 1000 years of History, centuries of provenance, the Declaration of Arbroath enshrining popular sovereignty upon the people, and it’s associated Papal recognition and the 1320 Treaty of Edinburgh Northampton, where the Dowager Queen of England declared, “ that the Kingdom of Scotland, [would be] …separate in all things from the Kingdom of England, whole, free and undisturbed in perpetuity, without any kind of subjection, service claim or demand. – That is my Scotland.


      Is it Westminster’s version of Scotland, where all inconvenient treaties, references, records, which make references to Scotland as a Nation are meaningless. We have in effect a Schrödinger‘s Scotland, which exists on paper but doesn’t really exist if you simple ignore the paper.


      Is it Nicola Sturgeon’s Scotland, the only nation in the World where sovereign people need to ask permission to be sovereign.

    122. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Seems Ian Blackford got a bit of a hard time at the AUOB zoom thing. Quelle dommage…

      Perhaps outright mockery is one way to go now?

      Someone with the required skills could make a series of Viz-style Sunday magazine ads showing the SNP big-hitters as many of us now see them: Wishart endorsing velcro-fastening fur-lined indoor bootees; Blackford sporting a pair of ‘practical’ no-ironing required permanent-crease beige-coloured slacks (get three pairs for the price of one!); Sturgeon dressed like the Queen Mother, demonstrating the easy-lift armchair, going from a sitting to standing position whilst holding a cup of tea and not spilling a drop; Mike Russell picking up leaves in his garden, one at a time, with a set of extendable pincers etc.

      ‘SNP – It’s Easy!’

    123. Hatuey says:

      Breastplate, you’re correct, it’s definitely not rocket science which is why I’m a bit puzzled when you say this; “ If anyone does not want to contract the virus they should not expose themselves to the virus…” just after you refer to schools.

      Are parents choosing to expose themselves to the virus when they send their kids to school?

      Kids are all potential ‘super spreaders’ since they often don’t show symptoms but they do spread it, of course. Again, not rocket science.

      When scotgov discusses the potential of schools to spread the virus, the first things they say is “there’s no evidence to suggest…” that’s usually followed by some misleading info about how resilient kids are to it and how they rarely suffer too much when they do catch it – but that isn’t the issue, the issue concerns the potential for kids to spread it and feed it into their homes and the wider community. And that issue is flatly ignored.

    124. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Received the following from a friend in Japan earlier:

      ‘Reading about Covid cases in Tokyo in the newspaper the other day makes me wonder if people are just reading headlines now and not bothering with the actual stories or indeed have lost the ability to count. It reported that positive cases in this ‘pandemic’ had ‘soared’ from 3 out of 100,000 people to 5 which has the government setting up a special commitee to deal with this ‘third wave’. Soared? A pandemic? 5 out of 100,000 is O.005%. And this is just positive cases from a test which is dubious at best. The flu in comparison affects 0.1% of the population. Maybe I’m just too dim to fully grasp the situation.’

    125. ScotsRenewables says:

      Michael Laing says:
      14 November, 2020 at 11:14 am
      Now we discover that Sturgeon has been putting every obstruction in the way of independence all this time. There are no excuses. That woman is beneath contempt.

      How you think the country can achieve independence when only 50% or less of the electorate want it mystifies me.

      We have a sustained majority for independence for the first time ever, a tacit admittance that there is or will be a plan B and a committment by significant leaders in the SNP hierarchy to a referendum next year.

      And you think the important thing now is a damaging attack on the SNP leadership that is guaranteed to create the sort of sideshow and squirrel distraction the Unionists love.

      I am sure you will be so proud when you tell your North British grandchildren how you helped bring down the evil witch Sturgeon.

      Yet again Scotland is poised to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    126. Effijy says:


      The leaked e-Mail I discussed is from a couple of days ago and
      has no mention of Evans or Lloyd or holidays that I can see.

      Klunker Brown on Marr-

      Let’s invite the worst Chancellor ever and failed, unelected Prime Minister on
      to give Scotland economic advice?

      I remember him as the man who sold off all UK Gold reserves just before the price doubled.
      The man who killed off the wonderful final salary pensions.
      Who introduced absurd PPI deals that gave us £50 Billion worth of schools and hospitals
      For over £300 Billion.
      The man who scaremongered Scottish pensioners when he knew their pension was guaranteed.
      The man who lied about an independent Scotland not having a Transplant waiting list or a Blood
      Transfusion Service.
      A man with a reputation for being a bully confirmed it when he left his microphone on by mistake and
      Ridiculed pensioner Gillian Duffy and his aids for exposing him to public questioning.
      The man in charge of monitoring the UK banks when they started Casino Banking behind the scenes
      Oh Yes and the man who formed his own charity that has a mystery £3 million in it but couldn’t give
      Local Foodbanks a penny but could draw out an average £10,000 per week for his expenses.

      Now a man like that I’d ideally like locked up, publicly stripped of all credibility and competence and
      Never allowed to make a public address as long as he lives.

    127. Stuart MacKay says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      But what percentage of Japanese are considered to be in a high risk age group? From

      According to 2014 estimates, 33.0% of the Japanese population is above the age of 60, 25.9% are aged 65 or above, and 12.5% are aged 75 or above

      12.5% of 126.5 million is a hell of a lot.

    128. Andy Ellis says:

      @ScotsRenewables 12.04pm

      “We have a sustained majority for independence for the first time ever, a tacit admittance that there is or will be a plan B and a committment by significant leaders in the SNP hierarchy to a referendum next year.”

      How is this 2021 referendum going to be secured? What are the specific means by which a Westminster refusal to honour the 2012-14 precedent will be honoured? What concrete steps will the SNP take to over come the defaul “now is not the time” response?

      I’m not interested in “trust us, Nicola’s got this” wishful thinking: I want REAL answers, actual plans and steps our government and supposed vehicle for independence will take to make it so. Pious hopes and expectations won’t cut it, neither will “ah, but we can’t show our cards, it’s all a great secret, but trust us there’s a cunning plan” responses.

      There are many reasons folk don’t trust the SNP gradualists. Convince us why we should.

    129. ScotsRenewables says:

      Breeks says:
      15 November, 2020 at 11:14 am
      Is it Nicola Sturgeon’s Scotland, the only nation in the World where sovereign people need to ask permission to be sovereign.

      Yes, they do need to ask to be sovereign. So the world knows that is their wish. Which required a plebiscite of some sort, something you and your ilk conveniently ignore every time you get on your soapbox.

      I have the feeling that if you could you would declare UDI all on your own without even asking the sovereign people of Scotland you are always bleating on about. That shows a dismaying combination of overweening arrogance and shocking contempt for your countrymen.

      We must have a plebiscite, whether it is in the form of a referendum or a single-issue election. Pretending otherwise is childish.

    130. george wood says:

      @ Breastplate

      “Again and it’s unfortunate that I need to keep pointing this out. If anyone does not want to contract the virus they should not expose themselves to the virus, this means isolating.
      It is genuinely not rocket science.”

      I find that horrifying. What you are implying is that the weak and vulnerable should hide themselves away from all contact while the rest carry on life as normal.

      The weak and the vulnerable should suffer more isolation so that the rest can go to the pub.

      I would not want to live in a country where that sentiment prevailed.

    131. Contrary says:

      Ian B,

      The AUOB Assembly was on Hopin (no, me neither) which is used for conferences, so a different set up – they did it well, and listened to feedback on the less successful parts (the breakout sessions).

      Ian Blackford blindly went ahead with the same old political rhetoric despite hard questioning from Leslie Riddoch and all the comments criticising him and the SNP, telling him what they are doing is not good enough, doesn’t work and we are fed up hearing about it. The conclusion: the SNP has no intention of listening. The leadership anyway. Angus was a different kettle of fish entirely.

      Why are the SNP not listening? They can hear us, it was right there in Ian Blackford’s face, yet he still ignored it.

      I might be a total Lesley Riddoch fan now, she was definitely the star of the show. I don’t normally do these things, and was a bit disappointed by the round-up at the end, but I signed up to next week’s sesh anyway – as people keep saying, if you don’t do anything about it, you can’t really complain – whether me sticking my oar in is any use, or that any of my ideas are of interest to anyone, I don’t know, but I reckon I give an alternative viewpoint, and that should be useful in itself (re formation of an assembly type thing).

    132. Republicofscotland says:

      The world’s largest free trade deal will be signed this weekend, but you won’t read much about it in the Western media. India was invited to join but refused, and instead the country has sided with the US in the region.

      Its probably another god reason why we should as an independent nation get back into the EU in one form or another.

    133. Breastplate says:

      You misunderstand me.
      My point is you can’t have it both ways.
      I don’t believe one can argue that the virus is so dangerous that you can rightfully complain that someone is encroaching on your personal space at the same time demanding kids go to school.

      Either you think it is dangerous equally for everyone or you don’t.
      If you don’t think it is equally dangerous for everyone then it can be argued logically that it merits a differential approach.

    134. Breastplate says:

      George Wood,
      Why would you find it horrifying that people at danger from the virus should acknowledge that danger and self isolate as per instructions.
      Try understanding the words that people use.

      How can somebody contract the virus if they don’t expose themselves to the virus?

    135. Breastplate says:

      Just to for clarity, I’m arguing the exact opposite of what you suggest.

    136. Bob Mack says:

      @Scots renewables ,

      I rather think EVERYBoDY on here wants that very plebiscite.

      We however are not the issue. There is a government in Holyrood who have been promising that for the last few years.

      They seem unable to arrange it.

    137. Hatuey says:

      Okay Breastplate, understood.

      Effijy, I wasn’t suggesting you posted or referred to the JJ article / Evans / Allison. I mistakenly thought it would be okay to discuss two different and unrelated issues and comments in one post.

      Ian Brotherhood, Japan with a population about 25 times great than Scotland’s (125 million) has had under 2000 covid-19 deaths. They must be doing something right. By the same token, we must be doing a lot wrong.

    138. Andy Ellis says:

      @ScotsRenewables 12.13pm

      It is self evident that there must be a vote of some sort to demonstrate the desire of a majority of Scots to change the current constitutional arrangement. Whether that is via a referendum or plebiscitary elections is actually of less interest to the international community than it is to those directly involved in the UK.

      You are however wrong to assert that a people must “ask” to be sovereign. Self determination is a jus cogens in international law: it isn’t contingent on being granted permission. Of course, international law is….to be charitable…under-developed. Nor does it have many precedents in dealing with potential secessionary situations like Scotland, Catalonia and Quebec (other than the 2 Quebec referendums, Scotland’s #indyref1 and the failed Catalan bid in October 2017, none of which resulted in a “win” for the pro-secession sides).

      @Breeks original phrasing at 11.14 am is nearer the mark, and expressed the frustration of many who are tired of the SNP gradualism and apparent acceptance of a British nationalist veto on our self-determination.

      Either the SNP accepts that the Scots people are sovereign, and don’t need Westminster’s permission to hold a vote, or they don’t. If it’s the latter, we might as well all give up for a decade or two and get on with negotiating the best devolutionary settlement we can within post brexit UK, because that is all you and those who agree with you are EVER going to achieve.

      If it’s the former, then we need to see some evidence from the SNP that they have a viable alternative, and that they will face down the “now is not the time” narrative once and for all. You opined in other contributions about needing a mandate, but all the polls show that an overwhelming majority of Scots (many more than the % in favour of independence) feel that the decision on whether and how often Holyrood holds referendums should be entirely a matter for Holyrood to decide.

      Why isn’t the SNP listening? Why is it so scared to unequivocally state that Scotland’s people are sovereign in Scotland, not the Westminster parliament? This isn’t about UDI, which is very much a weapon of last resort: it’s simply a matter of not only asserting the supremacy of Scots popular sovereignty, but actually believing that it applies and supervenes the claims of British nationalists to control if and when we exercise our self determination, and under what conditions.

      It isn’t UDI for the Holyrood parliament to simply state that we tell them, they don’t tell us.

    139. Hatuey says:

      Okay the big bet is on. £4 on Scotland to beat Slovakia 3-2.

      If I win I’ll have about £140 to fritter.

      Do I have a chance?

    140. ScotsRenewables says:

      @ Andy Ellis

      It is only in the last six months that support has sustained levels over 50% consistently. During that time we have been in the grip of a pandemic, when normal politics has been largely suspended.

      Now however we have that sustained support and the end of the beginning of Covid is in sight.

      And the SNP IS listening. Both Russell and Blackford have said there will be a referendum this year – that’s the Holyrood and the Westminster branches . . .

      And the conference agenda includes a proposed motion warning that the party “will not accept a Westminster veto” on holding a new vote. This is a de facto acknowledgement that there IS a plan B, and I fully expect this motion to be passed.

      It is just two weeks to conference, and I predict we will come out the other side with a firm commitment to a second referendum and some sort of timetable.

      I fully expect this to upset those who now see themselves as anti-SNP crusaders rather than pro-Indy warriors . . . the legions of anti-Murrelites are going to find they have picked the wrong fight for the times. Hopefully they will re-arm for the real fight that is coming, the fight against the next onrushing torrent of Westminster lies, bribes and dirty tricks.

    141. Bob Mack says:


      Saving a lot of words. NO.

    142. Bob Mack says:

      @Scots Renewables,

      I think the Rev is a betting man. I remember vaguely be was willing you give you generous odds that not one of your proposals ‘re Indy would come to pass in 2021. They might be proposed and passed in a vote which is actually meaningless, but would not occur in the real world.

      I think he’s right.

    143. Pete says:

      As you constantly annoy me by making out everything is so much better in our little paradise of Scotland compared to our neighbours down south, here is a stat that I’ve never seen you mention.
      In terms of population the death rate from Covid in England and Wales is 0.76% as against 0.88% in Scotland.

    144. Andy Ellis says:


      More assertion in lieu of facts. Blackford and Russell can insist there’s going to be a referendum all they like, but in the words of the old advertising slogan: “”where’s the beef?”.

      Increasing the pro-indy % necessitates a campaign. A campaign necessitates an end point. The end point needs to be either a referendum, or plebiscitary elections. The SNP simply can’t be trusted to deliver a referendum any time soon. They signally failed to put the matter beyond legal doubt: indeed they have gone out of their way to OBSTRUCT Martin Keating’s crowd funded attempt to do so. They have utterly failed to deliver a Plan B: they actually booed the prospect of even discussing it at their last party conference.

      Now. suddenly you ask us to trust their bland assertion that a referendum will happen next year?


      What happens when Boris simply says “now is not the time” again? We’ve literally just had Gordon Brown on TV pouring cold water on #indyref2 once again. Trust me, the British nationalists are listening to Brown, not Blackford and Russell.

      Like so many party loyalists, you’re long on assertion, and short on actual facts or concrete plans.

      By all means, come back to us after party conference and point out how this referendum will come to pass. I for one won’t be holding my breath: I wouldn’t trust the SNP further than I could throw Ian Blackford.

    145. Daisy Walker says:

      A wee thought re Covid.

      Lots of diseases throughout the world kill or give the patient long term damage, and are without vaccines.

      One of the things already happening re Covid is improved treatment – i.e. no longer going for immediate intubation – which appeared to increase mortality.

      I suspect the most likely thing to happen, in the long term, is better treatment of Covid. But what is becoming apparent, is the disaster capitalists are using this crisis time, to make full use of the opportunities it presents to double down on population control.

      On a personal level, what I am seeing is people being prepared to adopt sensible measures for safety, and quietly ignoring the ones that are inconsistent. I think that level of ‘rebellion’ is likely to increase the more governments attempt to crank up the lock down again.

      One can only hold a ‘state of emergency’ on a personal level and on a social/community level for a relatively short period of time, then – best will in the world – it becomes unsustainable, and counterproductive.

    146. Mike d says:

      Re the covid scenario, me and my wife drove down to benidorm last feb for 3 weeks, stayed in a hotel. Went to benidorm market twice which was heaving. Wandered about the bustling old town and promenade most evenings before finishing up in one of the many packed pubs and restaurants.drove back to england stopping twice overnight in spain and france. Arrived back in dover beginning of march. Put into lockdown 4 weeks later. We both must be very lucky we didnt catch this virus which was/is apparently rampant. We’re now at the stage we dont know what to believe anymore.

    147. Mike d says:

      Daisy walker. Spot on, we wear masks and hand sanitise when we go shopping. The rest we ignore.

    148. robertknight says:

      ScotsRenewables @ 1:15

      The SNP’s honesty, integrity and effectiveness can be summed up in a single sentence, oft repeated by their Westminster ringmaster…

      “We will not allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU…”

      ‘Nuf said, apart from stating the bloody obvious that it is Boris and Brexit who are to be credited for boosting support for Indy – the SNP have done sod all but take the credit for the numbers, which if they actually did what it says on the tin would be nearer 66% Yes than 56%.

      Do yourself a favour and don’t go buying a used car anytime soon… salesmen have a nose for identifying the highly gullible.

    149. Effijy says:


      You piss me right off too with your Unionist agenda here, paid or unpaid.

      In my last post I made no mention of England but held up a very factual account
      Of that lying, incompetent clown Gordon Brown, unfortunately a Scot, of sorts.

      I again provide you with a link to the Covid stats for comparison between Scotland
      and your beloved Empire HQ, England.

      To make it easy for you, just multiply the Scottish figure by 10, due to population differences
      and low and behold you are lying again.

      You seem to trust the Tories although we have proof from them that the Gers figures are manipulated to keep Scots suppressed, you know when they said they had all the PPE required,
      They lied, when they gave figures for PPE Kit supplies, a pair of gloves is not 2 items, posting 40,000 testing kits doesn’t count as tests made, etc
      I take you idiotic figure are from Gove or Cummings or someone in there we trust?

    150. MaggieC says:

      Good luck to the SCOTLAND team this afternoon . Hopefully we get a good result .

    151. Daisy Walker says:

      @ ScotRenewables, ‘And the conference agenda includes a proposed motion warning that the party “will not accept a Westminster veto” on holding a new vote. This is a de facto acknowledgement that there IS a plan B, and I fully expect this motion to be passed.

      It is just two weeks to conference, and I predict we will come out the other side with a firm commitment to a second referendum and some sort of timetable.

      I fully expect this to upset those who now see themselves as anti-SNP crusaders rather than pro-Indy warriors . . . the legions of anti-Murrelites are going to find they have picked the wrong fight for the times. Hopefully they will re-arm for the real fight that is coming, the fight against the next onrushing torrent of Westminster lies, bribes and dirty tricks.’

      Dear Scot, If there is to be an IndyRef2 next year, have the SNP announced the date, or will they do so at Conference. Without a date, its just empty words – ‘jam tomorrow’ type phrasing.

      We are in Month 11 of 2020, and it takes a minimum of 9 months to hold a Referendum under current rules. Which would make the earliest IR2 to be August/Sept 2021.

      In January 2021 we are out of Europe. And membership of the EU was crucial to the setting up of Holyrood Parliament.

      Holyrood Election in May 2021 – with all the skeletons due to come out of the clauset, re the SNP /Murrells at that time. If they fail to win a majority then? Assuming they’ve actually called IR2 before then, what would happen to IR2 going ahead, if they lose HE in May?

      And that is not even looking at any potential legal challenges by WM over the legality to hold one. You know, that thing Mr Martin Keatins is currently trying to clarify at court and the SNP Government is proving to be the number one obstructor of….

      Where is the timetable, the campaign schedule and plan? And what campaign material will they utilise – (in a Covid appropriate manner), when and how will it be deployed, Where is the money to pay for it? Where is the Current Fundraiser to sustain it?

      What will be the main themes of the campaign, especially given the recent information revealed by Scot Goes Pop’s recent polling?

      And why oh, why, put all your eggs in a Referendum basket, when – in view of the urgency – a democratic vote via Holyrood would be so much more direct and appropriate?

      I predict, that the SNP Conference will make nice noises about holding another IR2 in 2021, perhaps even having (yet another) Holyrood Vote to ensure Holyrood can hold one, they will propose another Peoples Assembly, and much talk will be made of the Democratic moral pressure on WM to ‘allow’ us another Ref. And then it will be Holyrood campaign mode as per usual – Yet another Mandate, just one more Mandate, with any worried voices told to ‘wheesht for Indy’, and ‘look at the polls’.

      But we will know more after conference.

      A question for you though. If my prediction is correct, will you put to one side your loyalty towards the SNP, and prioritise covering the ground needed to ensure the voters are fully aware the dangers to Devolution re Brexit and work towards getting support for Indy over the 60% mark?

      This would surely be common ground all of us can agree upon regardless of any concerns we may or may not have about current SNP leadership.

    152. robert graham says:

      Off Topic but tough

      Yesterday wife was in shop Queuing at the checkout the demented bat in front demanding she kept her distance while almost touching the person in front of her , Aye very clever dear,it wouldn’t have been me she verbally accosted ,so any of you Nazi inclined Nutters out there stay in yer bed and stop dictating what other folk do ,yer masks and distance freekery ain’t bleedn working if it was we wouldn’t still be bleedn doing it would we ? .

      Don’t attempt the moral outrage shite it won’t work just like the current Sales Promotion of the untested Chemical Concoction that’s being forced on a unsuspecting public ,all of a sudden free choice has been removed I must have missed that particular vote I don’t remember being asked .

      Do we all of a sudden trust a Government any Government that has a proven track record of lying to the Public since the First World War have they suddenly become whiter than white

      Drug companies have a long verifiable record of criminal behaviour and covering up their mistakes in order to avoid prosecution and they also now just like Governments become pure as the driven snow , yes of course we do silly we should believe anything they say .

      Only government approved information has been proposed by the bought and paid for Labour Party this is a attempt to make it more palatable to the public because trust in this Tory party has went through the floor yeh you can always trust Labour , eh IRAQ WAR anyone ? , Vietnam War started on the same lies as all other presentations pushed by trusted politicians.

      These Trials completed at record speed have one fatal Flaw ” TIME ” you cannot compress the Time element to speed the results , Also the test subjects have to be fit and healthy before they take part what about the vulnerable people who probably currently take a cocktail of drugs ? anyone who takes any drug will know the size of the warning notice enclosed in the box or package sometimes it takes up more space than the actual drugs.

      So I guess you might just gather I ain’t talking part in these particular ongoing trials so if you can’t access a jab feel free have mine fill yer boots post a request here first come first served .

    153. ScotsRenewables says:

      So if the SNP announce a referendum date and set the wheels in motion Andy, Robert and the rest of you will ignore it?

    154. Pete says:

      I took the figures from the BBC who report from the UK and SG figures.
      Maybe I’m wrong but here are my figures.
      Scotland – deaths 4856, pop. 5.5 min = 0.88%
      England and Wales – deaths 46910 pop. 61.5mn = 0.76%
      Happy to be corrected.
      Have a nice day.

    155. @ robert graham: If you get the virus and suffer extremely unpleasant consequences, it’ll be exactly what you deserve. I can’t find the words to express how I feel about the pile of selfish, idiotic garbage you’ve written.

    156. Bob Mack says:

      @Scots Renewables,

      It is pie in the sky. Jam tomorrow. A dead parrot. It’s not going to happen. Empty gestures.

      Set a date? You have more chance of setting a jelly in the sahara.

    157. ScotsRenewables says:

      Robert Graham, don’t lose your tinfoil helmet, it’ll protect you.

    158. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Effijy at 1:56 pm.

      You typed,
      “They lied, when they gave figures for PPE Kit supplies, a pair of gloves is not 2 items”

      To be fair, disposable gloves, as used in hospitals and labs, are supplied as a box of 100 individual gloves, fitting either hand. They are not sold in pairs.

    159. Breeks says:

      Lesley Riddoch interview with Ian Blackford.

      Not sure it’s right to use the word “interview” when virtually every question is ducked out of, and we’re expected to make do with “word soup” which doesn’t have any lumps of meat in it, just an overwhelming fear of commitment.

      “What are you going to do?“ pleads Lesley Riddoch… Sadly, I think the answer is effectively nothing, or at least, nothing effective.

    160. Daisy Walker says:

      @ScotsRenewables says:
      15 November, 2020 at 2:10 pm
      So if the SNP announce a referendum date and set the wheels in motion Andy, Robert and the rest of you will ignore it?’

      I can’t speak for the others, but if the SNP announce a referendum date, I for one would be delighted and support it 100%.

      But if they don’t, if those of us who have concerns about current SNP leadership policy prove correct in our fears. Will the lack of an IR2 date announcement, be enough to make you sit up and start to share our concerns.

      One area we can unite upon. With or without the SNP – getting support for Indy over 60% and informing Scottish Voters of the dangers to Holyrood with Brexit – is ground that needs to be covered, and covered now.

      Once again I would encourage others to have a look at recent polling by Scot Goes Pop with regards how former No voters view the dangers to Holyrood by Brexit/Tory Governments and how this changes their view of voting for Indy. It is the game changer.

    161. Andy Ellis says:

      @ScotRenewables 2.10pm

      OK, let’s assume they announce one. Are we to take it that you’re asserting Westminster will have agreed? If so then fin….all can proceed on the basis of 2012-14 precedent. But we already know from numerous statements that it is vanishingly unlikely Westminster will “allow” #indyref2 on the same terms as #indyref1.

      So……either all of this is so much talk, because few of us actually believe the Wishartesque magical thinking that British nationalists are suddenly going to be overcome with an attack of reasonableness and give the SNP everything they want, or (much more likely) Westminster continues to say “now is not the time”.

      Please explain to us all therefore, how the SNP gets from asserting a referendum will happen in 2021, to actually making it true. Either they plan to hold one without a S30 order, which risks lack of international recognition, or (presumably…? we just don’t know because none of you will explain it beyond “trust us” platitudes) they have some other plan, despite fighting a desperate rearguard action AGAINST having a Plan B for the past 5 years.

      If this approach wasn’t so politically inept it would be laughable.

      Announcing a date and setting the wheels in motion do not equate to #indyref2 happening. From your input and the SNPs political cowardice over the past few years however, I wouldn’t expect you to even recognise political wishful thinking when you saw it, still less admit to pedalling it.

    162. ScotsRenewables says:


      If I think the SNP have sold us down the river then of course my loyalty to the party will cease. I think Conference is the critical moment.

      I am worried that the leadership could implode under the strain of the Salmond enquiry, but I don’t think that would be the end. Still time for a new broom (Cherry/Macaskill?) to brush remaining obstacles to a referendum aside.

      Let’s wait a couple of weeks for conference, eh?

    163. Bob Mack says:

      Meanwhile Scotland crying out for a striker who actually can put the ball away from the goalie. Playing well otherwise.

    164. Daisy Walker says:

      5 minutes into Lesley Piddocks interview with IB and had to shut it off.

      ‘Have to get the SNP re-elected

      Look at the Polls

      I believe WM will have to grant S30.’

      Loved it when LR asked him, ‘ what strategy?’

    165. Pete says:

      Robert Graham
      I feel your pain and sympathise.
      Where I live there is a definite increase in authoritarianism.
      Give someone a smidgen of power and they’ll take 10 times as much.
      I see examples of the stasi all around.
      Agree with Lord Sumption that we are being denied our basic human rights, and I, for one, use every opportunity to rebel.
      Regarding vaccination, I will be right up there for it, as, at my age, not much in the way of downside.
      Anyway, good luck to you.

    166. robertknight says:


      We’ve already been waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and we’ll no doubt be begged to keep on waiting.

      I only hope that if we wait long enough, we might yet get our party back.

      You know? The one whose purpose is to restore Scotland to an independent, sovereign state.

      Not the one who sends paper tigers to ‘fight’ for us at Westminster, puts biology denying zealots onto the ballot papers for Holyrood, and is led by a scheming cabal of vindictive, career politicians, assorted troughers and other ‘professional’ hangers-on, ably assisted by a 5th column of senior civil servants all bearing Westminster’s stamp of approval.

      That’s the party under Sturgeon/Murrell and you’re welcome to it – I’ll have no truck with it.

    167. MaggieC says:

      From the National ,

      LORD Advocate James Wolffe and John Swinney could face motions of no confidence in Holyrood over the Alex Salmond legal advice, according to reports. The Sunday Times says opposition parties are considering the move after the Scottish Government declined to hand over paperwork to the committee investigating the handling of the botched public inquriy into sexual harassment complaints against the former first minister.

    168. Dan says:

      Classic Retro shiz from Neil Findlay…

      I thought we’d already been promised Super Devo Max or Full Fiscal Autonomy.

    169. Effijy says:


      Behave yourself!
      You took the BBC figures!
      What that biased, lying, manipulating mouthpiece for Westminster.

      I lost count at the last AUOB March of T Shirts that proclaimed:

      “Is that true, or did you hear it on the BBC”

      Trust in them like you would Boris, Gove or Cummings.

    170. stuart mctavish says:

      George Wood @12:13
      Don’t know if it will ease your fears any but according to NRS there appear to have been less deaths in October (5153 when cases were reported as running rampant) than there were last October (5217 when there was no covid-19 at all)

      Daisy Walker @1:33
      Might still be early to blame capitalists (disaster or otherwise) for this particular evil..

    171. Hatuey says:

      “We’ve already been waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and we’ll no doubt be begged to keep on waiting.”

      Waiting isn’t so bad when your snout is firmly in the trough. What’s the rush?

      To my knowledge though, the SNP haven’t ever asked us to wait in any manifesto. If they did, we’d have no reason to be annoyed with them and accuse them of dishonesty.

      Instead they’ve repeatedly told us the referendum is coming, next year, the year after, once we see what Brexit means, “vote for us and give us the mandate”, over and over.

      The current strategy, assuming it’s more than just a marketing line designed to win votes (which I don’t), is quite simply a barrier to progress towards independence. If you vote for that, you are voting for the status quo as far as the constitution is concerned.

      And to be honest, if that’s what the SNP stands for, that’s fine. It would be easier for everybody if they were honest and told people that though – then we wouldn’t need to tell them on their behalf.

      On a related note, it’s disappointing and worrying that there seems to be a pattern of spin and disinformation being relied on across a range of subjects today.

      I’m not a fundamentalist Christian or something; I know how politics works. The problem here is that it’s so blatantly obvious and trust in the SNP brand is being eroded constantly.

      It’s about time people who are loyal to the SNP started to consider what will be left behind when the current leadership goes. If you really are loyal to the party, maybe it’s you who should be calling all this stuff out.

    172. Stuart MacKay says:

      Robert Graham

      Your skepticism is probably justified. Vaccine developed for new virus, using new technology, in record time and in a race with other pharmaceutical giants for a prize of tens of billions of dollars. What could possibly go wrong?

      I’m not an anti-vax person by any stretch of the imagination but I’ll need to see a lot of evidence it’s a) actually going to work and b) it’s safe. Show me the data and I’ll make an informed decision. Anything else is unacceptable.

      The ham-fisted moves by government to suppress any dissent or hesitation and the massive PR campaign supported by the mainstream media should make a thinking person think some more.

    173. cirsium says:

      @Stuart MacKay, 4:07

      Not only is there a lack of evidence, but the CEO of Pfizer and the Chief Financial Officer sold a lot of their stock the day it was announced. Food for thought!

    174. Mike d says:

      Tory mp Tom tugendhat saying that vaccine refusers will possibly be banned from returning to work, pubs, restaurants, general socialising etc,

    175. ScotsRenewables says:

      Robert KnightWe’ve already been waiting, and waiting, and waiting, and we’ll no doubt be begged to keep on waiting.

      I only hope that if we wait long enough, we might yet get our party back.

      You know? The one whose purpose is to restore Scotland to an independent, sovereign state.

      Oh good grief.

      We have been waiting just six years since we bottled it as a nation in 2014

      If you can’t wait one more year without throwing your toys out of the pram then more fool you, you risk throwing everything away.

      Can I ask what exactly you are doing to make sure we get the result we need? Me, Ivve been making and maintaining pro-indy websites, helping the local Grassroots group in various ways and helping get the National Banner Library off the ground.

      You? (Apart from promoting hatred of SNP and advocating a dangerous and pointless gaming of the electoral system, that is…)

    176. Andy Ellis says:


      If virtue signalling could deliver us independence, you’d certainly be the go to guy/gal from all we’ve seen on here.

      Laudable as your individual contributions doubtless are (I mean, I’m personally not convinced the national banner library will get us a scintilla closer to Nicola reading out the declaration of independence from the steps of Bute House, but….horse for courses: those banners aren’t going to wave themselves then fold away nicely in mothballs for the next AUOB march right enough) you and your gradualist ilk are immeasurably more injurious to the chances of independence happening than Robert and the rest of us questioning the SNPs stomach for the fight.

      It isn’t going to BE 1 year. Only the painfully naive take Blackford’s assurances at face value. There is as much chance of him delivering #indyref2 in 2021 as there is of Scotland winning the next European Championship, i.e. it’s not technically impossible, but it’s so vanishingly unlikely as to be measurable only with the aid of an electron microscope.

      Away and peddle your gradualist snake oil somewhere it’d be lapped up by credulous wet-nats. I hear Wee Ginger Dug is awash with them.

    177. Dan says:

      Do the gradualists who are willing to wait years for Scotland to return to being a normal self governing independent country ever explain the complex realities of how in our newly achieved status we will manage to negotiate back control of various aspects and our resources that will inevitably have been included in any trade deals the UK makes once we are out of the EU.

      Surely the time is now, prior to end of transition period, to put a marker down.

    178. Tinto Chiel says:

      Mike d says:

      “Tory mp Tom tugendhat saying that vaccine refusers will possibly be banned from returning to work, pubs, restaurants, general socialising etc.” Quite so. I think he and Tobias Ellwood have links to 77 Brigade so this is hardly surprising but worrying nonetheless.

      Yes, and add to that being allowed to travel abroad. Listening to BBC radio now is like listening to a prolonged Pfizer advert. My ears pricked up especially when I heard Radio 2 chief spook/shill Jeremy Vine float the idea of banning any anti-vaccine views. Pravdasound doesn’t cover it.

      I’m by no means anti-vaccine in principle and have taken many during my lifetime but this one has been incredibly rushed. You can’t spot medium to long term adverse reactions in such a short development period. When even the Daily Telegraph tells us Vallance has £600,000 invested in a vaccine, I begin to get worried.

      I suspect the virus is endemic now and beyond lockdown measures and though pretty infectious does not produce significant mortality in healthy people below 80, certainly nothing justifying the levels of lockdowns and restrictions, with its colossal economic and personal damage.

      I also suspect the absence of a real Second Wave suggests many of us are immune now via T-Cells but those wanting to flog a jab wouldn’t want this to be known. Stuart McTavish’s comment at 3.09 re up to date statistics should make people ask why the governments here are behaving in this restrictive way if they are simply dutifully “following the science”.

    179. ScotsRenewables says:

      Andy Ellis, you would be more convincing (and indeed interesting) if you had the remotest plausible alternative, but you don’t.

      And in case you hadn’t noticed, support for indy has only become the sustained majority opinion in the last six months. Any referendum prior to Covid would have been a very risky business, one during it would have been insane.

      So Autumn 2021 is the earliest possible date. But you are driven into an irrational rage because it has not happened sooner?

      Now IS the time, and as far as I and many others are concerned the campaign has started. So I suggest you get out there and do something useful instead of apparently competing for the 2020 dog in a manger award.

      If you are right and the SNP have no intention of pursuing independence (a frankly ludicrous suggestion) then it will become obvious in six months time and we can roll those tumbrils as all will be lost and I will join you on the righteous indignation bandwagon.

      But for now, don’t tell me next year is ‘gradualist’. Next year is our best and possibly only shot.

      BTW, the NBL is nothing to do with AUOB or marches. It is to do with getting the ‘Believe In Scotland’ message out.

      You do believe in Scotland, don’t you?

    180. A Person says:

      -Tinto Cheil-

      You are correct Elwood and Tugendaht are both spooks.

    181. A Person says:

      And interestingly looking up Tugendaht’s Twitter to search for the story you discuss i see he retweets Stuart McDonald a few times…

    182. Andy Ellis says:


      Please try to interact with what people actually post or what you know to be true, rather than what you wrongly infer. I and many others – including Stu on this site in considerable detail over many months – have plainly stated what the alternative could and should have been. It’s hardly rocket science:

      – the status of a non S30 Order mandated referendum should have been put beyond legal doubt years ago, not left to a crowd funded individual like Martin Keatings
      – our sovereignty should have been sealed with an assertion that refusal of a S30 order would result in the Holyrood 2021 elections being regarded as a plebiscite.

      Autumn 2021 won’t happen for reasons others have already pointed out: the timetable simply doesn’t fit. Luckily the British nationalists will save the SNPs blushes, because they’ll never consent to a referendum next year, and the SNP lack the balls to do anything about it.

      I believe in Scotland. I’m not so sure about you and other gradualist useful idiots in the SNP. It’s increasingly obvious many of them would be quite content with devo-max if push came to shove, and will in the final analysis accept an effective yoon veto on when #indyref2 happens.

      Blackford and Sturgeon aren’t going to deliver a 2021 vote. They know it, and most of us know it. It suits them to string along the party faithful until they have yet another mandate and another Holyrood term.

      I never would have thought that the SNP would be the ones acting to ensure #indyref2 is delayed for a real generation. #indyref2039 will be the legacy of their lack of courage, and your support for it.

    183. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Thon Celebrity Jungle farse.

      Ffs . Thon Shane Ritchie fud just asked
      Mo Farah what his name wiz again!

      That’s it cannae watch anymore o this pish.They can all fecking fall off the cliff and break an ankle.

    184. Mike d says:

      Tinto chiel 6.56pm relating to my post at 1.36pm today. The hotel we stayed in in benidorm was packed out, a few families but mostly pensioners, in our 3 weeks there we literally came across thousands of people, there was actually a coach load of seniors from our area here who were booked in to a neighbouring hotel. This virus we were told was rampant when we got back 4 weeks before lockdown, why didn’t anyone we know get it?. Were we just lucky? Or I’m starting to suspect there might be something to your t.cell immunity theory, let’s hope so. I know one thing, I’ve had flu jabs before so not anti vaccine, but I’ll be fooked if I’ll be taking this one till I see the results of it.

    185. ScotsRenewables says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      15 November, 2020 at 8:56 pm

      – the status of a non S30 Order mandated referendum should have been put beyond legal doubt years ago, not left to a crowd funded individual like Martin Keatings

      And if the verdict had not gone our way, how exactly would that have helped?

      – our sovereignty should have been sealed with an assertion that refusal of a S30 order would result in the Holyrood 2021 elections being regarded as a plebiscite.

      And if Westminster reacted the way the Spanish government did to Catalonia?

      You are full of bluster Andy, but bluster doesn’t cut it in politics, as Boris is now finding out.

    186. @ ScotsRenewables: If the Section 30 order had been ruled illegal, then we could have stopped wasting our time and energy arguing about whether we should pursue a referendum by that means, and indeed whether a referendum is the best means to bring about our independence. As far as I’m concerned, we’ve been there and done that, and it failed. Multiple instances of cheating were reported, few if any of which were ever investigated. Blank-backed polling cards, for instance. When I reported this to the Electoral Commission, they said it was a matter for the police. When I reported it to the police, they said it was a matter for the Electoral Commission. I have no doubt that the same would happen again.

    187. Andy Ellis says:

      @ScotsRenewables 10pm

      If the verdict had gone against us, we’d have known. That would have meant the SNP and movement could have moved on and developed Plan B. Instead, the SNP tried to obstruct Martin Keating’s case, and still don’t have an alternative. Clueless Blackford is NOW talking about maybe starting a legal challenge when Westminster says “now is not the time” again – as it inevitably will.

      Winning a plebiscitary election is in no way similar to the Catalan situation. Wishart has already tried the false linkage between winning a majority in a plebiscitary elections and Catalan style UDI.

      There’s a lot of bluster going on here bud, but with pleasing irony it’s coming from the Renewables direction. 🙂

    188. Daisy Walker says:

      @ ScotsRenewables, ‘And if Westminster reacted the way the Spanish government did to Catalonia?’

      The Wee Ginger Dug has explained the set up in Spain incredibly well. As I understand it, the Spanish constitution – set up when Franco was overthrown in the 1970, stated that no part of Spain could apply for Independence and that to do so was unconstitutional and therefore illegal.

      Spain’s official response to Scotland’s IndyRef1 was stated very clearly – they had no issue, as long as the procedures were legal.

      There is nothing illegal about a plebiscite Indy election – as stated by Margaret Thatcher herself.

      It has been NS (and when she first did so, it seemed like an OK idea) who has put all the eggs into a S30 Second Indy Ref basket. As much as that is her preference, it is not the only legal, democratic means to achieving it.

      ‘And if Westminster reacted the way the Spanish Government did to Catalonia’ – then their actions would be illegal, and we would have to deal with it.

      But if you think they are that ruthless and immoral – and remember it would be on an international stage – why on earth would you expect them to honour a request for a S30 order when it is not in their national interests to do so, and they have a democratic English majority at WM to support them in denying it.

      And the cost to them of denying it is what? A long disapproving speech from Ian Bardford at WM telling them how naughty and unfair they’re being.

      Wow, that’ll do it right enough.

    189. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Mike d: I’d forgotten about my own recent ‘flu jab. I’m getting on in life but have never had influenza before anyway so of course you don’t know how effective it is or whether it can protect you from the strain going around during a particular winter. It’s the short development time-scale of this new vaccine which really concerns me, however.

      The description of your holiday was most interesting but I don’t think you’ll get on Radio 4 because your account doesn’t suit the narrative they’re trying to shape there 😉 .

      @A Person 7.38: should add both those gentlemen you mention are Radio 4’s Go To Guys whenever the string-pullers need to give a particular spin on things.

    190. ScotsRenewables says:

      Daisy, let’s get one thing straight. I do not expect the current government to grant a Section 30 order.

      However, they have to actually refuse before we go to Plan B. All they have done with the previous request is ignore it, a tried and tested political tactic.

      We need a new request with a (short) response deadline and a clear indication that a refusal will not be the end of the matter.

      Then we can go to Plan B with a clear conscience and widespread international support.

    191. Well done Chris,
      Good smile for a dreech Tuesday

    192. wee monkey says:

      Where’s Stu?

    193. Saffron Robe says:

      All that testing proves is that Covid-19 is now circulating in the general population and that none of their control methods have worked (they may actually be making things worse by inhibiting the immune system and its response). It is an exercise in futility of course, except that it makes a lot of money for the manufacturers of the test kits. It is the same with the vaccine. They need to convince the whole population that their lives depend on it. The more they can do this, the more they can maximise their profits. The truth is, however, that any vaccine is unlikely to be any more effective or safer than the flu jab.

      It is the free market and neo-liberalism that is killing us and the planet not some rogue virus. It is like a new dark age has descended upon the Earth with the light of truth extinguished by collective insanity. As Jiddu Krishnamurti said, “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

    194. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Saffron Robe: when the government’s own stats show deaths just now at five-year-average levels and more deaths last October than this, as stuart mctavish mentioned above, my scepticism increases.

      Listening to BBC Radio is like hearing a prolonged Pfizer advert, with usually no balancing/dissenting voices from other scientists, with Fergus Walsh saying the only guarantee of returning to normal life is to take the jag.

      As the Prof of Evidence-based Medicine at Oxford says, he can’t even begin to evaluate the claims of 90% efficacy because no data on the vaccine have been released.

    195. Saffron Robe says:

      Dear Tinto Chiel,

      I agree completely. Stuart Mctavish’s reporting of the NRS data sums up the situation perfectly – a sham of epic proportions. All deaths are tragic, but some deaths are being treated much more unequally than others, especially when there’s money to be made!

      Unfortunately governments cannot admit that they have failed because that would be akin to admitting that the profound devastation they have caused to society in the name of Covid-19 was all in vain. They have no alternative but to push on relentlessly.

    196. Tinto Chiel says:

      @SR: yes, and if I remember correctly the ONS figure for recent deaths in the home was the only one above the FYA. Presumably, these will be predominantly people dying there of conditions other than Covid because treatment for their illnesses has been affected by the concentration on treating patients with the virus.

      I fear the next three weeks will do even more damage to people and businesses when the “science” (ONS and NRS statistics) does not appear to support further restrictions.

    197. Saffron Robe says:

      Indeed TC, deaths at home would be expected to increase, principally due to neglect and because, as you say, there is an almost complete concentration on Covid-19.

      It would be interesting to see the number of deaths from other causes in relation to Covid-19. Of particular concern would be the number of suicides. I don’t generally watch the news, but I caught a piece today that said about one in three people have had their mental heath impacted by the pandemic and attendant measures. I fear also that the coming weeks will see a surge in the numbers of distraught and broken people amidst a landscape of economic ruin. Society itself is broken, and just like climate change and the environment, we seem to be moving inexorably towards the point of no repair.

    198. Tinto Chiel says:

      Yes, people need hope and a sense the government has a clear and logical strategy beyond repeating failed measures. The potential damage of all this is huge.

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