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The sounds of silencing

Posted on March 20, 2013 by

Well, what a curious day this is shaping up as. As we scoured our Twitter feed in vain after the bewildering media blackout on the workfare vote, we also discovered that “Better Together” has been running around half the internet trying to censor a satirical video. To cut a long story short, you can download a copy of the video by right-clicking on the image below and choosing “Save As…” or “Save Link As…”.

(NB: Don’t left-click, as it will attempt to stream it and fail.)

We invite the No campaign to see if they can have it pulled from this site.

together

But that wasn’t the end. As people started to read our story on the workfare motion, we began to get tweets and comments questioning the quote we’d used, as it didn’t seem to appear anywhere in the article on the website. Confused, we went and had a look, and sure enough the original version had vanished, replaced by something much shorter and far more innocuous.

Luckily this isn’t our first time with internet censorship. At the time of writing there’s still a cached version of the original, and when that disappears you can read it here.

We’re not quite sure what’s happening today, but we don’t like it.

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    1. 20 03 13 12:24

      Top 10 Unionist Myths – DEBUNKED – BANNED then RE-DEBUNKED | laidbackviews

    128 to “The sounds of silencing”

    1. Luigi says:

      Brace yourself Rev, you have been noticed. They don’t like it. This is just the beginning.

    2. Morag says:

      My God, that’s not just slightly toned down.  The whole thing has been pulled and replaced with a placeholder.
       
      I’m not into conspiracy theorising about internet censorship, but that’s actually quite sinister.

    3. Luigi says:

      “then they come to fight you…”

    4. Doug Daniel says:

      Yeah, the difference between those two articles is stark. Interesting that the original version was by a named person, whereas the new version is simply “admin”.
       
      By the way folks, I’ve found the Positive Case for the Union! It was behind my settee all this time! So, for the first time ever, I bring to you the Positive Case for the Union.
       
      The positive reason for staying in the UK is [REDACTED AFTER COPYRIGHT COMPLAINT FROM BETTER TOGETHER]

    5. Tom says:

      Scary stuff. No, really. Let us know when the first activist disappears.

    6. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Sinister indeed but should act as a salutary lesson to the naive still among us,
      We ain’t seen nothing yet.
      We are winning a huge victory though somedays it might not seem like it. Despite a barrage of unprecedented ferocity against us over the last year support for independence remains firm and shows signs of creeping upwards. That being the case our opponents will be forced to use other tactics.   Be prepared.
       

    7. Dcanmore says:

      Yes, things are very odd today. I’ve asked some of my colleagues about yesterday’s debate and vote on retrospective laws (they’re all information specialists) and the reaction was surprising. Most didn’t know much about it and some have a vague recollection of something that happened yesterday in parliament. Welcome to a world of censorship I thought! So I asked my clued up mate who is a journalist and he said the same thing, it’s all a bit vague and doesn’t really know much about it. The big worry is the attitude, nobody down here seems to care. The English are in denial, they are sleep walking into a nightmare for any liberal minded person, and one that they will ready accept as long as it gives them a quiet life. NOBODY CARES … apart from this chippy Scot who is increasingly sounding like a paranoid Jock spouting gibberish to the walking dead.
       
      We desperately need a YES vote in 2014!
       
      It is a very odd feeling, people are turning into sheep as I type this

    8. Cath says:

      “Interesting that the original version was by a named person, whereas the new version is simply “admin”.”
       
      Has anyone heard from the named person today? 

    9. Braco says:

      Tom,
      and you would believe it if it happened, wouldn’t you. Aye right!

    10. Westie7 says:

      D notice anybody?

    11. Cath says:

      “The big worry is the attitude, nobody down here seems to care.”
       
      I suspect the proportion of people who know or care about yesterday’s vote up here is similar to the proportion down there. The media blackout is as firm here, and as many people just read or listen to mainstream media. There is certainly an argument that people right across the UK need to come together to fight what is happening at Westminster. And there is also a very good argument indeed to be made to those in England who do care that Scottish independence is potentially the best, if not only, way to break the stranglehold on power at Westminster.
       
      Whether we got independence or a federal UK, it would radically change the power structures in Britain, and that’s what’s needed. Westminster are not going to give any of us federalism any more than Lords reform, PR or any change to the status quo.
       
       

    12. Doug Daniel says:

      Cath – no, although I’ve just tweeted him asking if he knows why the article has been pulled: https://twitter.com/JJLindsell/status/313984581323874304
       
      By the way Stu, the cached version has now been replaced also.

    13. FreddieThreepwood says:

      Sorry Rev – sure it’s more to do with my hyper sensitive MacBook than anything else but all I get video-wise is a long ‘loading’ period and then just a Quicktime icon with a question mark …

    14. James Morton says:

      The really bizarre thing is they put this much energy into fighting the bedroom tax, workfare or any other regressive policy, or if Labour had even taken a position to repeal it. Better together would have had at last stumbled on the positive case for Union. Instead they keep strangely quiet about whats going on, and labour went out of its way to allow the latest attacks on the vulnerable to pass into law.
      As for trying to stop the video – they really don’t have a clue as to how the internet works. Once something starts to trend or becomes a meme – its impossible to get that genie back in the bottle. You listen to them and realise that they don’t know anything about rickrolling or the downfall parodies. If they had they would have left it well alone.

    15. Luigi says:

      The signs are looking bad and they are getting jittery. Hot on the heals of the Bedroom tax, people have had enough. Workfare is about to become Poll Tax 11 !

    16. pmcrek says:

      Nobody I have spoken with today knew about yesterdays workfare legislation. Now they do.

    17. CameronB says:

      Revealed: how the FBI coordinated the crackdown on Occupy
      New documents prove what was once dismissed as paranoid fantasy: totally integrated corporate-state repression of dissent”
       
      This was the headline for an article by Naomi Wolf, which the Gruniad ran at the end of last year, though not as a front page spread. Despite the obvious American topic, it must be pretty clear to all but those in a coma, just what is happening within NATO. I appreciate I will have turned a lot of folk off by making that last connection, but I no longer care.
       
      I am all for playing a team game, but there comes a time when the facts need to be faced.
       
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy?INTCMP=SRCH
       

    18. tartanfever says:

      Maybe we have to start taking screen grabs of web pages before they mysteriously ‘disappear’ and we’re accused of all sorts.

    19. Robert Kerr says:

      O/T slighlly.
       
      Friday’s pub conversation touched on the cancellation of the Nimrod MR4A project and the immediate destruction of the airframes by order of the government so that it could not be resurrected.
      My thoughts were that this could be to prevent a future use by Scotland. Perfect for maritime search and rescue and maritime counter terrorism co-ordination.
      No one disagreed, even a die hard labour trade unionist.
      My final comment was that the people running the country are truly evil.
      Again, no one disagreed.
       

    20. Bill C says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill says:     

      “Sinister indeed but should act as a salutary lesson to the naive still among us, We ain’t seen nothing yet.
      We are winning a huge victory though somedays it might not seem like it. Despite a barrage of unprecedented ferocity against us over the last year support for independence remains firm and shows signs of creeping upwards. That being the case our opponents will be forced to use other tactics.   Be prepared.”
      Spot on Dave, as I have said before, like you, I have been a nationalist a long time and well remember the dirty tricks brigade of the seventies, eighties and nineties. The really worrying thing is we were no where near to breaking up the British state in those days, I shudder to think what they might have in store as we approach the referendum.
      Talking of brigades and dirty tricks I am convinced that the hoo hah over the Green Brigade issue is orchestrated and designed to damage the SNP Government.  It is a story I have been following for a while and I think it is safe to say that it is not just about a rowdy bunch of football fans. There is much more to this story than meets the eye. 

    21. Holebender says:

      Looking forward to a lot more 503 errors…

    22. Mosstrooper says:

      Cath, why is it that when I run my mouse over your avatar that a notice comes up from Fergie saying just trying this thing out… nothing of interest here?

    23. Geoff Huijer says:

      I saved the link of the video.
       
      Unfortunately it won’t play…hmmmm

    24. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Sorry Rev – sure it’s more to do with my hyper sensitive MacBook than anything else but all I get video-wise is a long ‘loading’ period and then just a Quicktime icon with a question mark …”

      Yeah, don’t left-click it. It doesn’t seem to work as a stream, which is why the piece says to download it by right-clicking. I’ve tested that and the downloaded video works fine here, but I’ve now had two reports of people saying it won’t play for them. It may be that some people need to download some new video codecs, or try it in VLC Media Player.

    25. CameronB says:

      @ Bill C
      Hopefully Craig Murry or someone significant, will do what we were talking about. Call in the international observers. Time is running out to counter the state’s willingness to manipulate and suppress the truth.

    26. Mosstrooper says:

      How strange…tried to view the video when my computer showed a blank screen then a notice telling me I was disconnected from the internet, something which was patently incorrect as I was also on skype to a fellow nationalist. Coincidence?

    27. Geoff Huijer says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDrqamBHqLg
       
      This works for me…

    28. Robert Kerr says:

      On my macbook the video is silent.
      Is there a soundtrack?

    29. Robert Kerr says:

      The youtube one is OK
       

    30. Cath says:

      “Talking of brigades and dirty tricks I am convinced that the hoo hah over the Green Brigade issue is orchestrated and designed to damage the SNP Government.”
       
      Totally. That is absolutely transparent and we can only hope most people within Celtic, or any other group likely to be subject to those kind of dirty tricks, are smart enough not to be taken in by them. There is a real danger to the unionists in playing that game too, since the vast majority of people in Scotland have no interest in, and no truck with, sectarianism and support measures to clamp down on the worst of it. At the same time, the Scottish government and police need to be careful that they are not actually using good legislation in a bad way.
       
      “Cath, why is it that when I run my mouse over your avatar that a notice comes up from Fergie saying just trying this thing out… nothing of interest here?”
       
      Um, not a scooby. I’ve just clicked on a little thing that says “turn off hover-over” and that seems to have cleared it for now.
       

    31. AHamilton says:

      Positive,informative and fun it’s got to be a YES proposition.

    32. mrbfaethedee says:

      @RevStu
      O/T, but I don’t know if you’d seen (or are interested)  that amazon have ‘send to kindle’ buttons for web content so that readers can send articles to their kindles to read, there’s a wordpress plugin available.

    33. Cauld tattie says:

      Non Youtube link just in case it gets taken off again.

      ” rel=”nofollow”>

    34. Cath says:

      “Hopefully Craig Murry or someone significant, will do what we were talking about. Call in the international observers.”
       
      That needs to be done urgently. And for the UK generally not just Scotland.

    35. mutterings says:

      O/T: Is any of the Yes campaigners noticing that the negative reactions from the public are becoming nastier? My theory is that with our increased and regular activities people are now becoming aware of us and the Nos are feeling threatened by our mere presence. I am expecting, as we move on, that some members of the public will try to disturb local campaign activities.
      I’d be interested to compare notes. You can contact me here…

    36. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “O/T, but I don’t know if you’d seen (or are interested) that amazon have ‘send to kindle’ buttons for web content so that readers can send articles to their kindles to read, there’s a wordpress plugin available.”

      Cheers, will investigate that.

    37. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Non Youtube link just in case it gets taken off again.

      The more links we put up the better, but the vast majority of these will be gone again by the end of today. Do make sure you download a copy too.

      (I’ve had several more people check the download and the clip is fine. Anyone having problems is almost certainly experiencing a codec issue. Get VLC media player here: http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html)

    38. MajorBloodnok says:

      Anyone contacted Civitas to ask why they pulled their article?  I hope Robin McAlpine covers this – it’ll be right up his street – and may even get into the Scotsman (in second preference to Rev Stu getting the gig of course).

    39. dundee bloke says:

      As I posted yesterday on the problems this site was having, it may not be accidental

    40. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      In fact our hosts said they were the result of a DOS attack, though not necessarily one directed at us specifically.

    41. MajorBloodnok says:

      Davidson on Steroids?

      Scary

    42. CameronB says:

      @ Rev Stuart Campbell
      Might be an idea to devote some web space to a digital vault, with direct links, to store all information that might prove problematic to access in the future. Or is that too paranoid?

    43. Vronsky says:

      For trapping things from the internet:
       
      http://www.webcitation.org/
      http://www.zotero.org/

    44. Jiggsbro says:

      In fact our hosts said they were the result of a DOS attack, though not necessarily one directed at us specifically.
       
      To be fair, hosts sometimes say that when what they mean is “Our piss-poor technical support staff cocked up and it took us ages to fix it. We had to turn everything off and on again”.

    45. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “To be fair, hosts sometimes say that when what they mean is “Our piss-poor technical support staff cocked up and it took us ages to fix it. We had to turn everything off and on again”.”

      In fairness, I very much doubt that’s the case with our current hosts. The last ones, maybe.

    46. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Might be an idea to devote some web space to a digital vault, with direct links, to store all information that might prove problematic to access in the future. Or is that too paranoid?”

      I habitually save copies of stuff that might be important or is likely to be “disappeared”. The trouble is finding the time to curate all of that into a single resource. I’m swamped as it is.

    47. CameronB says:

      “The trouble is finding the time to curate all of that into a single resource. I’m swamped as it is.”
       
      Perhaps some volunteer help, or would that not be technically possible?

    48. Vronsky says:

      “The trouble is finding the time to curate all of that into a single resource. I’m swamped as it is.”
       
      Zotero for you, then.  You can sort, search, file in folders either links to documents, the documents themselves (as in PDFs), the links, the standard citation fields if the doc is in a recognised academic format, etc.  The basic service is a free add-on for Firefox.  For a subscription you can archive to a cloud database and access from anywhere.  The Zotero screen pops up on command allowing you to save a link or a local copy of the page the link points to.  I’ve used it for years and have oodles of stuff, all carefully annotated, all just added one click at a time. 
       

    49. CameronB says:

      Budget 2013: corporation tax to be cut to 20%
      Osborne says ‘Britain is open for business, with new rate the lowest in western world, below Luxembourg’s 21%.
       
      Got the picture yet?
       
      Vote Yes in 2014.

    50. Bob Howie says:

      With all the banning being done by the BTs, I sincerely hope the whole thing backfires on them and people see they are trying harder to cover up the truth than tell it and the inbetweeners will see that and vote accordingly.

    51. Doug Daniel says:

      Cameron – the thing is, the SNP also favour low corporation tax. So it’s difficult for us to crow too loudly about that one.

    52. CameronB says:

      @ Doug Daniel
      I am for low taxes as well, and would have loved lower corporation tax and business rate when I was in business myself. However, I think there is a time and a place for everything. Why favour big business, many of whom pay as little tax as possible, at a time when people are being denied compensation for their forced labour? At least their coerced labour.

    53. Matt says:

      Not a complete media blackout. Owen Jones has a piece on the independent online.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/workfare-why-did-so-many-labour-mps-accept-this-brutal-unforgivable-attack-on-vulnerable-people-8542193.html

      I downloaded the video. It wouldn’t play on Windows Media Player for me, but worked fine on VLC. The sound quality wasn’t as good as the version I saw online last night though.

    54. FreddieThreepwood says:

      @Rev
      Thanks for your advice … none of which I understood. Luckily some other helpful folk on this thread have provided other links. Cheers one and all.

    55. westie7 says:

      Spooky that Eh!
      what about the small profits rate (<300k), by making all these cuts to the headline CT rate I now pay the same CT as a company that turns over millions!
       

    56. velofello says:

      My experience is as described by Freddie Threepwood, long duration loading signal on a dark grey background then a Quicktime icon overlaid with a question mark. I have a Mac.

    57. CameronB says:

      “I have a Mac”
      Separatist. 😀

    58. Heather Wilson says:

      Watched the brilliant video on Bellacaledonia, wouldn’t allow posting to facebook and it was even removed when I did manage , so copy and pasted, lets see if it stays there…
      scary
       

    59. ianbrotherhood says:

      I’ve just written to my MP, Katy Clark, thanking her for voting against that wretched Jobseekers Bill. If you’re fortunate enough to have an MP who did likewise, please send them a brief message of thanks and support – we’re always having a go at them but they should also get a pat on the back when it’s deserved, especially as their names will surely have been noted for future reference by the Labour whips etc.
      Use theyworkforyou.com for convenience.

    60. CameronB says:

      @ velofello
      Just realised my comment could be taken a number of ways. It was meant in jest.

    61. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Not a complete media blackout. Owen Jones has a piece on the independent online.”

      …which funnily enough it’s impossible to comment on.

    62. Grant says:

      An article prior to the vote, comments went a bit mental yesterday evening, still open but no new article.
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/19/labour-rush-benefit-rebates-poundland?commentpage=1
       

    63. Matt says:

      “…which funnily enough it’s impossible to comment on.”

      Heh, didn’t notice that.

      “With all the banning being done by the BTs, I sincerely hope the whole thing backfires on them and people see they are trying harder to cover up the truth than tell it and the inbetweeners will see that and vote accordingly.”

      Totally off-topic, but this reminds me of a really good wee line I saw in the middle of an article on monetary reform earlier:

      “[W]e need to think freely, which requires our love of truth to be greater than our fear of consequences.”

      Seems like BT are feart of the consequences of us learning the truth….

      The article, in case anyone is interested:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/sustainable-business/alternative-monetary-systems-address-economic-problems?INTCMP=SRCH

    64. John Lyons says:

      On the subject of Conspiracy theories, I don’t really believe in them, but I do feel the need to mention the McCrone report, Saville and Hillsborough.
      What else are they hiding?

    65. Dcanmore says:

      I have a Mac too so all this left click and right click is sooo last century! 🙂

    66. Bill C says:

      @Cath – Fergie’s still there! As far as the Green Brigade are concerned, I fear someone is pulling their strings for a number of reasons: 1. To deliberately try to bait the police is not the action of an ordinary group of football fans. 2. The ‘footsoldiers’ of the GB are not likely to be members of .3. They have a very polished website which claims that they are in favour of Scottish independence! 4. The swift support offered to them by a Labour supporting QC and Labour Politicians like Michael McMahon indicate that Saturday’s incident was well planned and designed to cause damage to the SNP Government. 5. The fact that some Rangers supporters (I suspect members of the Blue Order) are in agreement with their ‘deadly enemies’ in the Green Brigade, that the First Minister is the devil incarnate, suggests an element of collusion between the two groups. The question is: Who is orchestrating the collusion?
      Cameron B – You are right Craig Murray might be the very man. Who’s going to ask him?

    67. CameronB says:

      @ Bill C
      Craig has suggested it himself, I just wish he would get his finger out. Then again, he should know what he is doing, so I suppose I should calm down.

    68. Cath says:

      “@Cath – Fergie’s still there”
      Hmm, only thing I can think of is it’s connecting my email address to an old blog I once played around with just to see how it worked. Which is odd. Just went and changed the settings but can’t see any way to delete the blog or blogger profile. Anyway, even if people can get into it, it’s so boring no one would stay long 🙂
       

    69. Jiggsbro says:

      Hmm, only thing I can think of is it’s connecting my email address to an old blog I once played around
       
      It’ll probably be on your Gravatar account profile. Turns out I have one I didn’t know/had forgotten about.
       
      http://en.gravatar.com/

      (In fact I now notice that you can click on the pop-up from your avatar and go to your Gravatar profile)

    70. a supporter says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says: at 2:11 pm

      “Not a complete media blackout. Owen Jones has a piece on the independent online.”
      …which funnily enough it’s impossible to comment on.
      Comments are open at the moment.

    71. Cath says:

      “It’ll probably be on your Gravatar account profile. Turns out I have one I didn’t know/had forgotten about.”
       
      That’s what it was. Don’t remember setting that up either.

    72. Bill C says:

      Fair enough Cameron, here’s hoping he manages to do something soon, we sure could use some help.

    73. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Comments are open at the moment.”

      They were always “open”, it was just impossible to actually post one for several hours.

    74. Albert Herring says:

      @CameronB
      Would it not be possible to link corporation tax to wage levels, i.e. reward companies who pay good wages with lower CT levels? Could be a sliding scale. That way we’d 1) attract good employers, who 2) create quality well paid jobs which 3) make up for lost CT through greater income tax take. Just an idea – don’t know if it’s ever been tried anywhere.

    75. orkers says:

      Brilliant wee video.
      Thanks for that.

    76. westie7 says:

      @Cameron B
      @Albert Herring
      This level playing field of CT must be paving the way for another “Argument”
      why else would the main rate go from 28% to 20% and the SPR go from 21% to 20% over the same period. Although I still believe Swinney has a lower rate in mind to cut the legs off this one

    77. kininvie says:

      Reading the comments over the last few days, I do wonder whether we’re all getting slightly paranoid here. No one’s actually been disappeared yet (I hope) and we are not being threatened by use of force, as is happening in Catalonia. That said, I’m sure most of us will be on a little list somewhere, and that MI5 has a number of tactics up its sleeve, such as ‘placing’ articles in the press. But I sincerely doubt there is an active co-ordinated campaign to subvert and disrupt going on (yet). Because, in point of fact, we activists are neither sufficiently numerous nor important enough, and polling evidence says we are fighting a losing battle…
       
      On the subject of the video – it was a fairly obvious tactic by BT, but someone needed to tell them about the Streisand effect. They will never, of course, get around to sueing anyone for breach of copyright – they’d probably lose anyway. It’s back up on YouTube (with appropriate copyright disclaimer), and if it’s taken down again, no doubt someone will post it right back up.

    78. Adrian B says:

      @ Kininvie,
       
      See this comment on Bella. Its Better Together that are the ones that have admitted to braking the law!
       
      Link to article:
       
      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/03/19/top-10-unionist-myths-debunked-banned-then-re-debunked/
      radiofreescotland March 20, 2013 at 15:19 · · Reply ?

      http://radiofreescotland.com/wp/?page_id=142

      their requests for a take down will be dealt with in the manner they deserve at RFS
      they , through their admission on Twitter, it was no actually a copyright issue admitted that they actually broke the rules and abused the DMCA take down system.
      At Youtube, Vimeo and Daily Motion the DMCA take down system is automated. and thus they just have to submit a complaint and the video is down.
      This video is actually protected under UK and DMCA regulations.
      Under uk law by the “Fair Dealing” clause which states that use of excerpts are allowed for “criticism and news reporting”, thus it’s perfectly legal.. similar provisions exist under the DMCA called “Fair Use”.
      this was blatantly an attempt at censorship by abusing the DMCA and UK copyright procedures.
      The Better Together obviously have never heard of the “Streisand Effect”
      they have had this video pulled MANY times overnight on verious sites by various uploaders…
      Well they can send all the emails they like.. they’ll be pointed to the regulations and told to “get tae” by RFS

       

    79. CameronB says:

      @ Albert & westie7
      I’m afraid I know virtually nothing about tax, other than its not really a level playing field. For example, how much is it that Prince Charles and his estate pays, or rather doesn’t ?

    80. Adrian B says:

      Just to add, 
      Someone else has posted a further comment so I am unable to edit.
      Highlighting by me.

    81. a supporter says:

       
      Rev Stu
      Allright if you want to be pedantic. Comments were being POSTED at the time of my last post at 3.54 pm.
       

    82. dmw42 says:

      Did anyone hear Cameron during PMQ’s immediately before the Budget when he stated “Britain and Scotland”?
       
      I can’t remember the context and will have to wait until Hansard is published but, could it be that he’s resigned to independence.

    83. Mariaskid says:

      I couldn’t play the video on my ipad, however I found it on my facebook newsfeed from Free Scotland… Great video and I have shared it (don’t know if any of my friends will read it, but we can but try)

    84. crisiscult says:

      I’ve still got the original Civitas article (ie the one from yesterday) open in my web browser if anyone wants me to copy and post somewhere – though not exactly sure where or how would do that.

    85. TYRAN says:

      Mr Miliband said: “Every Budget he comes to this House and things are worse, not better for this country. Compared to last year’s Budget: growth last year down, growth this year down, growth next year down, growth in 2015 down.”

      Better Together? 
       

    86. Dave Smith says:

      I’m relieved to read above that I am not the only person who sees ‘False Flag Op’ written all over the Green Brigade carry on.
      It’s common knowledge that many Neo-Nazi groups in West Germany were actually initiated by the DDR’s Stasi to damage the reputation of the Bonn government.
      I expect many unpleasant acts initiated by the UKs own ‘Stasi’ to undermine Scotland’s democratically elected government over the next year or two. I wouldn’t rule out their use of violence and/or intimidation either.

    87. rabb says:

      This worries me now. I was looking forward to attending the indy rally in September with my wife and daughter.

      If this is the lengths the British State will go to in order to discredit the indy movement then I’m not sure I wish to expose my daughter to it.

    88. Robert Kerr says:

      rabb
      Then they win !

    89. MajorBloodnok says:

      I was at the rally last September (was trying to see if I was the clips on the YouTube video) and the two or three people who were there to cause trouble were so bleedin’ obvious that their cards were marked by the police straight away.  As long as the sun shines (and even if it doesn’t) the next rally will be even better.

    90. CameronB says:

      F in FUD.

    91. cath says:

      “This worries me now. I was looking forward to attending the indy rally in September with my wife and daughter.”
       
      The only way to deal with such concerns is for as many people to turn out, enjoy themselves and have fun as possible. If not, then it ends up with extremists on both sides winning.

    92. Bill C says:

      @rabb – I would not worry too much about the Indy march in September, it is too public an arena for the nasty Brit brigade to get involved in. They prefer the political smear, media lies/distortions/manipulations and occasionally a political assination e.g. Willie Macrae, Dr. David Kelly and Hilda Murrell. I will be attending with my wife, two sons and girlfriends, brother and sister in law and their children and grandchildren. I would not expose almost my whole family to danger, if I thought there was any possiblity that there might be a serious incident. It will be as much a fun day (for adults and kids) as last year only bigger and better.

    93. muttley79 says:

      @rabb
       
      You and your family will be fine.  I was at last year’s event and there was a lot of police there.  There was a good crowd as well.

    94. Jeannie says:

      @Rabb
      I was there last year and it was a great day.  I’ll be going again this year too – wouldn’t miss it.  There were police monitoring the march and the rally and they quickly took control of the only tiny wee bit bother – caused by a couple of unionists waving a union flag in order to be provocative – and they only managed to provoke one person, at that.  Everybody else just ignored them. The atmosphere was amazing.

    95. Hermione says:

      Dear me, such paranoia and hysteria.
       
      It seems obvious that the reason the original Civitas article was pulled was the line “They committed a crime, and are now, after the act, making that act legal.”.
       
      Which of course is libellously untrue. Combined with all the fruity phrases like “terrifying threat to civil liberty”, it no doubt means that “Jonathan Lindsell” has had an unpleasant interview with the bosses at Civitas, standing up, hat off, no offer of coffee.
       
      As for the rest of us – no, we do NOT care much. The intent of the law was clear, this issue is just one of faulty drafting and implementation which needed sorting out.
       
      Of course if you want to fixate on this sort of thing, carry on…

    96. mrbfaethedee says:

      @Hermione
      Thanks for the analysis. Why didn’t they just change the line in question, instead of replacing it with boilerplate?
       
      I hope that Jonathon Lindsell’s ‘unpleasant interview’ reinforces his clear good conscience, and his will to act upon it. We have enough lazy cynics, and cheerleading ‘conservatives’.
      ‘The rest of us’, who ‘do NOT care much’ are precisely the reason why we will continue to fixate on these sort of acts and the apologists and sockpuppets who creep out to tell us not to bother.
       
      Carry on? Indeed, let’s make a movie! ‘Carry On Class War’, a tragicomic farce to lower the curtain on the union. Oooh Matron…

    97. Doug says:

      Hermione
       
      Whatever the merits of the article and whether or not the change to the law was a simple correction, the principle is that the UK Govt is not just changing the law (fine enough if that’s what they want to do) but denying people who were deemed in court to be wronged any recompense and drafting the law to pretend there was no wrong to be righted.
      It may be a correction on this occasion, but what would stop it being applied to other areas of the law? That is my concern, not the specifics of workfare (whose merits/flaws have been rehearsed ad nauseum elsewhere)
       

    98. Jiggsbro says:

      Which of course is libellously untrue.
       
      That’s correct, except for two minor points: ‘libellously’ and ‘untrue’.

    99. Doug says:

      Although for clarity, I was against ‘Poundland’ workfare on principle.

    100. scottish_skier says:

      Hermione
      You just can’t polish this turd.
      Nice try though.
      Some more info.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law
       

    101. crisiscult says:

      Hermione exhibiting the all too common Scottish “ABOCb”

    102. Morag says:

      I’ve been up to my neck in chasing down the Lockerbie scandal for several years now.  This has mostly been done in clear on an internet forum.  It’s done now, and can’t be undone.  Still, getting rid of me even at this stage would really set the campaign back a lot.

      I don’t check under my car before I go to work.  I don’t lock my garage.  I answer the door after dark.  I don’t believe we live in that sort of society.  I wish people would stop making hysterical claims about MacRae, Kelly and so on.  They don’t stand up to scrutiny.

    103. Bill C says:

      @Morag – I have no doubt you have done some sterling work on Lockerbie and that is to your credit, but please do not ridicule the investigative work of other people.  There is very strong evidence to suggest that the deaths of Willie Macrae, Dr. David Kelly, Hilda Murrell and even Princess Diana were the work of security forces from both the UK and in the case of Princess Diana the USA.
      I and other nationalists have been on the wrong end of British dirty tricks, it is not a pleasant experience, it caused my family real concern for my safety. It is entirely your choice not to believe that such black ops are already in operation in the run up to the referendum, but please do not accuse others who have experience of Brit black ops of hysteria.

    104. Baheid says:

      O/T Danny Alexander on newsnicht getting a bit of hard time from Brewer, Brewer actually laughs at him.

    105. Morag says:

      Oh no, not another one….  🙁

    106. Bill C says:

      @Morag – “Oh no, not another one….  “. If you are referring to my last post, please explain.

    107. Richie says:

      @Morag
      ” They don’t stand up to scrutiny.”
      No lies or conspiracies behind Lockerbie then?

    108. Morag says:

      Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.

      The important part, however, is the bit about standing up to scrutiny.

    109. Richie says:

      Here’s another one for them to chase after.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ_H4-LuJrA&feature=youtu.be
      Upload your own folks. Make life hell for the bitter bastards 🙂

    110. Richie says:

      @Morag
      I don’t know much about DR Kelly or Hilda Murrel and I try to leave the country whenever I hear about Diana but I watched the Channel 4 doc about Willie MacRae and the official investigation and verdict doesn’t seem to stand up to scrutiny.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsqJEN9ouY0
       
      Regardless, well done with your work on Lockerbie 🙂

    111. Jiggsbro says:

      Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.
       
      Never forget that stupid people can be malicious and the malicious, stupid.

    112. Morag says:

      Ritchie, you have to bear in mind that the police who came upon the Macrae car crash thought it was just a car crash.  Nobody noticed anything different until he was in the hospital as far as I recall.  So PC McPlod had stomped all over the scene multiple times, kicking things around and disturbing them, long before they realised they should be preserving any evidence.  There simply isn’t anything left after all that but conjecture.  Channel 4 put a good spin on it, but they do that a lot.
       
      I admit I was suspicious about the Kelly thing at the time, but it’s been well enough investigated and there’s nothing to see here folks.
       
      They should have murdered Alex Salmond in 2007.  They didn’t.

    113. Morag says:

      Jiggsbro, you never seem to get it.  “Explained”.  “Stands up to scrutiny”.
       
      It’s the evidence, stupid, as they say.  If something can be adequately explained by stupidity, then that’s the way to go, every time.  If it can’t, that’s something else.
       
      With Lockerbie, every time you think you found a nice juicy conspiracy, scratch the surface and you find someone as thick as mince making a complete balls-up of the investigation.  I will not die of shock if when everything is out in the open it turns out to have been nothing more sinister than a bunch of senior cops who couldn’t find their arses with both hands, aided and abetted by the Remedial Class of the forensic service in Kent.
       
      Or on the other hand, maybe not.

    114. Barontorc says:

      Morag, leave the nonsense behind and try to look at the circumstantial side of Willie MacRae’s ‘accident’ as cause for concern.

    115. Dcanmore says:

      @Morag …
       
      That’s because the British Establishment thought Alex was going to lose, right up until the counting started. If the SNP had lost in 2007 then that would probably have been the only chance of an SNP victory as the Establishment would have had a near-miss scare and then enacted some political jiggery-pokery to ensure an SNP government would never come near to being elected again (also pending a NO vote in 2014). I’m not much of a conspiracy theorist but I would never under estimate the malevolent capabilities (and the ineptness) of the British State especially against its own people, history has proven that.
       
      VOTE YES 2014!

    116. Jiggsbro says:

      Jiggsbro, you never seem to get it.
       
      I get that you’re very offensive for no obviously apparent reason. I get that you consider me a paranoid fantasist despite me expressing no paranoid fantasies. I get that you are unable to consider alternate points of view. I get that you seem to believe Hanlon’s Razor is some sort of natural law. I get that you think that a theory is evidence. I get that you have a very simplistic, possibly comforting, world view. I get all that. I don’t get why, though if I was to follow your advice I’d have to assume you’re stupid, wouldn’t I?
       
      What you don’t get is that you’re wrong.
      – Things that can be adequately explained by stupidity are sometimes, nevertheless, motivated by malice.
      – Evidence of an event is not, in itself, evidence of the motivation for that event.
      – A theory of stupidity requires evidence, stupid, just as much as any other theory.
      – Stupidity is not a default cause, any more than malice, greed or anything else.
      – Widely accepted ‘laws’ and similar adages do not become true by being widely accepted. Hanlon’s Razor is a joke, not a life-rule.
      – There is no such thing as a fool-proof system.
      – There is such a thing as conspiracy.
      – Governments have been involved in cover-ups, conspiracies, crimes and cock-ups. Sometimes all at the same time.
       

    117. Vronsky says:

      @jiggsbro.  Ouch!  Well said.

    118. Morag says:

      Jiggsboro,  Ritchie asked me about Lockerbie.  I was applying Hanlon’s Razor to that affair, where it is proving to be more apposite than I could have imagined in my wildest dreams.
       
      Of course conspiracies happen.  However, constantly throwing out assertions that such-and-such was a conspiracy when in fact there’s really nothing to substantiate that on close examination is pointless and indeed counter-productive.  Continuing to insist that something was a massive conspiracy simply because “they’re evil”, when there’s no evidence, it getting into tinfoil hat territory.
       
      They’re usually a lot stupider than you think they are.

    119. dmw42 says:

      Re my post at 6:18 pm on 20 March; I didn’t mishear D Cameron distinguishing between Britain and Scotland, the official Hansard recorded exchange was:

      Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op): The Prime Minister will be aware that this week marks the bicentenary of the birth of Dr David Livingstone—born in Blantyre in my constituency, buried in Westminster abbey—which was marked by a service attended by President Joyce Banda last night in the abbey. He will know that one of Livingstone’s proudest achievements was the drive to abolish slavery in east Africa. Given the bicentenary, does the Prime Minister agree that it is now time for his Government to take the lead to end the scandal of the 2.5 million people in modern-day slavery or prostitution as a result of people trafficking?

      The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and he gives me the opportunity to praise President Banda for what she is doing to lift people out of poverty in Malawi, and to thank her for visiting Britain and Scotland this week. The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about slavery, because there is still modern-day slavery and we still need to take action to combat it at European level, at national level and at local level with the police. This Government will continue to take that action.
       
      No point in AS anouncing a date later today then, it seems we’re already independent.
       

    120. Morag says:

      Barontorc, I don’t think anyone can say what happened to Willie Macrae, because the evidence was walked all over before anyone could document it.  I can understand why people would be suspicious, but the fact is the British state doesn’t as a rule go around killing inconvenient citizens, as the fact that Alex is still breathing rather illustrates.
       
      Something peculiar happened, but there’s no way to know what.  If we could get in a time machine and go back and watch, I’ll bet it was something none of us have thought of.  Lacking the time machine, I think lurid conclusions are way beyond reasonable.

    121. Morag says:

      dmw42, I think Cameron is scared to say “England” in case he offends someone, and scared not to say “Scotland” as well, for much the same reason.  And he’s not good at thinking on his feet, so it comes out bizarre.
       
      I heard something else slightly odd on the radio yesterday.  Someone was banging on about the need to regenerate cities that aren’t called London, and pointed out that the Empire was built on a whole list of great manufacturing cities of the 19th century, which are now in terminal decline.
       
      The list of cities were all in England.  I kept waiting for the G-word, but it never passed the speaker’s lips.

    122. David Smillie says:

      Morag – ‘the British state doesn’t as a rule go around killing inconvenient citizens’.  Whether you agree with them or not, a great many Irish people believe otherwise.

    123. Cath says:

      Pat Finucane was a lawyer sympathetic to nationalists in Ireland who was shot and for many years anyone saying it was state sanctioned was dismissed as a conspiracy theorist. Turns out they were right. And that was in a country where killings and terrorism were happening anyway.
       
      Willie McCrae was a lawyer sympathetic to Scottish independence, and anti-nuclear weapons. He was shot in the head during the same administration. In a country where shootings and terrorism weren’t happening.

      I’m not into conspiracy theories and tend to go for the cock-up ones more often. But you’d have to be daft not to be suspicious about McCrae.

    124. Bill C says:

      @Morag “There simply isn’t anything left after all that but conjecture.  Channel 4 put a good spin on it, but they do that a lot”
      With all due respect Morag, if you thought that the Channel 4 documentary put a spin on Willie Macrae’s murder, it’s as well you don’t know the full story.  The documentary did not come close to the truth on Willie’s activities or what actually happened on the night he was murdered. To be honest, it was nothing more than a poor man’s ‘who dunnit’. The biggest disappointment for me in the case, was the readiness of some leading nationalists to accept the Establishment’s version of events. I know the reason why they chose to distance themselves from Willie’s murder, but I cannot defend their silence. Willie Macrae was murdered because he was a serious threat to the British Establishment. That is a fact, believe it or believe it not.

    125. Morag says:

      Well, we’ll just have to disagree on that.  I don’t think there’s anything like sufficient evidence to come to that conclusion.

    126. Vronsky says:

      “Something peculiar happened, but there’s no way to know what. If we could get in a time machine and go back and watch, I’ll bet it was something none of us have thought of.”
       
       
      MacRae had a bullet in his head. Either he shot himself, accidentally or deliberately, or someone else shot him with his own gun. If it was murder, either it was an agent of the state going about his normal business or it was someone else for some other motive. Suicide, murder by the state, murder by person or persons unknown, have all been aired as explanations. There isn’t much scope left there for another option that ‘none of us have thought of’.  Extra-terrestrials?  Lizard people?  Have you got your tinfoil hat on again?
       
       
      I agree that what happened was peculiar.  Especially odd is the list of things he’d taken with him on his trip to suicide. Here it is, courtesy of Northern Constabulary’s website (link at end, click on the ’26 documents’ link and look at the police receipts).
       
       
      Cream & tan shopping bag containing
      Various receipts, notepads and papers
      Telephone dial code book
      Red booklet
      Royal Bank of Scotland Access card No.****
      Telecom credit card no.****
      Diners Club International card No: *****
      One Zenith wrist watch with half bracelet strap
      Half bottle of Grouse whisky 1/6 full
       
       
      Black attache case containing
      One book Scottish Highlanders
      2 Scots Magazines
      2 annual reports
      Various loose papers
      1 packet Biz razors
      1 shaving brush
      1 tube antiseptic cream
      1 bottle of TCP
      1 box Palmolive shaving cream
      1 tube of *** tablets
      1 bottle of *** tablets
      1 broken tablet bottle
      1 navy blue tie
      1 brown envelope – still sealed + 2 bunches of keys
       
       
      Smaller black attache case containing
      1 full bottle of Glenmorangie whisky
      Various loose papers
      3 shirts
      2 pillow cases
      1 pair pyjamas
      2 pairs of socks
      7 handkerchiefs
      2 pairs pants
      1 black tie
      1 cardigan
      Blue case containing various cuff links and tie pins
      1 Razor
      Black leather pen case
       
       
      1 Brown Leather Brief Case containing
      Various business documents
       
       
      http://www.northern.police.uk/Default.aspx.LocID-0axnew00o.RefLocID-0ax00b00d004.Lang-EN.htm
       
       



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