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Wings Over Scotland

The power of ideas

Posted on September 01, 2019 by

So it seems like our semi-idle musings about the possibility of starting a new list party for the Scottish Parliament generated some interest last month.

(That’s more than the whole of 2018, more than the whole of 2017, and over five times the previous biggest single month since we moved to our current stats provider in December 2014.)

But yeah, nobody cares and it’d be certain to fail, apparently.

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    715 to “The power of ideas”

    1. Jim Thomson says:

      Hope you pre-warned your web host.

    2. Brian McGowan says:

      you little teaser you.

    3. Merkin Scot says:

      Following with interest as are many others.
      Let us use all available means to escape this toxic union.

    4. Camy says:

      Has that illustration been verified by the BBC graphics department?

    5. Arbroath1320 says:

      I’m thinking these figures are all courtesy of the unionists blowing their tops at the very thought of another anti unionist party appearing on the Scottish political scene and stealing their votes. 😀

    6. defo says:

      What a scunner!
      If only you’d accepted that offer from Barr’s to promote nu bru on here. £££

    7. Capella says:

      So successful that I hope you have back-up hosting somewhere safe. What is the daily readership of WoS? anywhere near the “newspapers”?

    8. Tartanpigsy says:

      I wish there was as much interest in this crowdfunder!
      9 weeks until possible chaos, martial law? Holyrood closed? Troops on our streets? We will need all options on the table for the fight of ouf lives

    9. Doug says:

      Floating on the stock exchange next? Or just floating on cloud 9, or cloud 18137?

      Whatever it is, WoS continues to set the pace.

    10. Alison Brown says:

      It certainly got my interest – and my vote!!!!

    11. Harry mcaye says:

      Capella- got me thinking, we are surely due the latest newspaper circulation figures. Always an enjoyable read.

    12. Dorothy Devine says:

      Tartanpigsy , I may have missed your response to my question of an alternative method to donate , I could use knowing!

    13. John Thomson says:

      No brainer SNP 1 WINGS 2. Now if only Nicola would call it early

    14. Sharny Dubs says:

      Touched a nerve have you young man? lol

      More power to yer elbow

    15. Sandra says:

      You’ve started a trend. Three jobs Tomkins is talking about starting another unionist party. And for balance we should have a Willie Rennie MacIntosh Party for art loving closet tories.

    16. Confused says:

      first of all – its a stupid idea and you are a horrible person and it won’t work

      then – well, it wight work, but it’s WRONG because you are “gaming the system” by breaking no rules whatsoever

      finally – they will come out with – CAN WE COME TOO?!


      i.e. riding on your coat-tails, all the woke-fannies who couldn’t win a “spot the ball” against a blind person

    17. Marie Clark says:

      Tartanpigsy, I made a comment on the last thread for you. Your gofundme website ain’t working properly. Try as I might I cannot donate.

      First it was the expiry date for your card that was working, that seems okay now, but, the security number from the back of your card is not, you cannot enter the number. It is extremely frustrating.

      I have tried, several times over the last couple of weeks, with no luck. Perhaps that is why your crowdfunder is strugling.

    18. Dr Jim says:

      If there is to be democracy of course another Independence party must be welcome….but…

      We may not be afforded the right or luxury of claiming our democracy

      *It’s no longer ridiculous to say Hoyrood could be shut* Nicola Sturgeon

      In which case another Independence party would be redundant because Independence could never happen anyway unless the rest of the world agreed with Scotland and put sanctions in place to force England to be democratic, but those sanctions would affect Scotland also

      Boris Johnson is the worst kind of Tory, he’s a facist socialist Tory, a believer in all the unpleasant traits of each ideology that leads to ultimate power, a dictator

    19. Tartanpigsy says:

      @Dorothy Devine and Marie Clark.
      I’ll look into both issues tonight.
      Thanks for pointing it out

    20. dakk says:

      Masterstroke Stuart.

      Win win re Wings readership/truth awareness and political strategy alike.

    21. Shug says:

      Deff set up now to be ready to go with wings party

    22. schrodingers cat says:


      i just rted it on the yesnef twitter account

    23. willie says:

      When 38% of the vote gets you 7% of the list seats, or 4 out of 56, the logic of SNP 1 and Wings 2 for 30 list seats as opposed to 4 becomes inescapable.

      No wonder folk are interested.

    24. Marcia says:

      The benefit of appearing on the MSM who wish you had not. I told you at the time, free advertising that money couldn’t buy.

    25. Cubby says:


      For your info I had no problem donating not that long ago.

      All the best hope you get to your target.

    26. Juteman says:

      So a new idea gets loads of Yoonies visiting to have a laugh, or loads of Indys visit to cheer themselves up during a dire period in the campaign?

    27. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      If all the recent stushie achieves is a significantly increased readership for Stu’s typically incisive analyses of the sham that is the UK and its servile media, it will already be an achievement to rival the WBB.

      It’ll be interesting to see how that situation develops over the next few critical months. A blip, or a sign of things to come…?

    28. Marie Clark says:

      Tartanpigsy, just tried it again after Cubby said it was working. No problem this time, donated no bother.

      Nae idea wit’s going on, but, made it this time.

    29. Tatu3 says:

      Tartanpigsy. I donated on 19 August. No problem then

    30. Early Ball says:

      New traffic most likely Cambridge Analytica or equivalent trawling through archives for a dodgy comment. That will be used for front page headlines.

    31. Col.Blimp IV says:

      If the site was set up to auto-reload the screens of everyone who was logged in, every time a new comment was posted, or every minute or so.

      By how much would that increase the traffic and what would be the benefits?

    32. Hamish100 says:

      (That’s more than the whole of 2018, more than the whole of 2017, and over five times the previous biggest single month since we moved to our current stats provider in December 2014.)

      But yeah, nobody cares and it’d be certain to fail, apparently.

      Interest in something doesn’t convert into votes nor talking about something means it will happen.

      Just sayin.

    33. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Or if we all resolved to post random pish on a regular basis, for that matter?

    34. brewsed says:

      WoS received an estimated 211,400 visits over 30 days in 2018. The average Gbytes for the seven months Jan – Jul is 793. If that represents 200,000 visits each month then 18,137Gbytes equals 4,574,275 visits. If 793 represents 300,000 visits then the 18,137 equals 6,861,412 visits. So, roughly, 5 million visits in August. The Herald circulation is about 20,000.

    35. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Juteman @ 17:13,

      Mutual support always has its place, but don’t discount the visitation of “others” either. These may be neutral outsiders just wanting a better handle on what’s happening here – a good thing in of itself, no? – and there’s always the possibility of recruitment of a self-informing neutral, or even the occasional Damascene conversion of a previous opponent on getting a more definitive reality check than the typical partisan dross extruded from the BritNat media.

      Using the truth to win over people to our side, and demoralise those who can’t bring themselves to change, is the name of the game. Not every visitor will be reached, but the more the merrier, surely?

      After all, as far as indy is concerned, we on the indy side have all the good tunes, not the Devil.

    36. MPW says:

      that is because it is a great idea. simple.

    37. Capella says:

      @ Tartanpigsy – I was able to donate online too. So it doesn’t affect everyone. Something your fund host needs to sort out though.

    38. John says:

      I had no problem donating at your first request , maybe people should look at their security settings , mine went through immediately with no problem. Sorry you have encountered a feeble response, seems to be a small minority that give to fundraisers like yours,doesn’t same much for the majority of independence supporters who seem to like to see lots of flags flying as long as they don’t have to pay for them .

    39. sassenach says:

      I suspect the flag fundraiser is just suffering the general malaise that we are witnessing while we are in a ‘calm water’ phase.

      When things appear to be happening everybody gets a buzz, and wallets are easier to open.

    40. ahundredthidiot says:

      oh, do come on GCHQ, what – no interest today? (looking at the posts) – the Empire should never rest….not even on a Sunday.

      slackers, the lot of ye….

    41. Ian B says:

      Figures are bullshit.

    42. ahundredthidiot says:


      haha, and to think I used to be one of they daft wee boys, running about with a green berry on my head thinking I was invincible.

      Then you grow up.

    43. Artyhetty says:

      Interesting indeed. Expect some is via foes, not just friends though. They are well panicked at the thought of a WOS party.
      Keep them panicked, the Britnats deserve no less.


      Of course it could be that people are being safe with their money, if they have it, re Brexit, and also plenty folks struggling a bit right now. 🙁
      Notice your food bills and others creeping up lately anyone?

    44. Muscleguy says:

      It is certainly an interesting piece of data. If the SNP is still intent on passing the GRA bill then I will also be seriously considering Wings on the List. As I’ve said before was talking to a woman colleague, a Yesser as well who doesn’t know who to vote for as a result of it. So if you do it I suspect you will do quite well.

    45. Republicofscotland says:

      You know what even if Nicola beats you to the punch and calls an indyref sooner than later and we win. It might not be a bad idea to still go ahead and set the party up.

      We could always do with another party at Holyrood, to stave off Tory/LidDem/Labour lunacy.

    46. Colin Alexander says:

      SNP MP Mr Blackford has repeatedly promised the people of Scotland that the SNP won’t allow the UK Govt to drag Scotland out of the EU against the will of the people of Scotland.

      Then we have the triple electoral mandate and Scottish Parliament vote for indyref2.

      So, we’ll see….

    47. Fireproofjim says:

      I had no bother donating for the flags using a MasterCard.
      Quick acknowledgement too.
      Give it another go if you have difficulty.
      I look forward to seeing MY flag adorning the next Edinburgh march

    48. cynicalHighlander says:

      I also donated a while ago but never recieved an acknowledgement, would of been nice. 😉

    49. call me dave says:

      Well I donated no bother on 2nd July and I got email confirmation.


    50. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      It is a very good idea. Some of us suggested such a year ago but it only works properly if the SNP does not stand on the list so the SNP the Greens, SSP,Soldarity and independents have to be part of an independence coalition for the list.

      But we are going for a referendum first which means it should not be needed.

    51. defo says:

      Dave MH
      “But we are going for a referendum first which means it should not be needed.”

      We are going where the Westminster wind blows us first i think Dave, which is looking awfy likely, and if so certainly soon.

      I challenge anyone to say how this election will be contested on anything other than the constitutional question, on both sides.

      An elephant the size of the room?

      Nope. The SNP will have little choice but to contest it as a de facto referendum. In the UK, or in the EU!

    52. Ian Brotherhood says:

      FAO Robert Peffers:

      This tweet was posted by Ian Blackford last night –

      ‘We in @theSNP will do all we can to stop a no deal exit. With Boris threatening our EU status, Scotland needs a referendum on independence to secure our independent European future. A UK election would allow voters to to speak up loudly and clearly for Scotland’s right to choose.’

      I have nothing to say about that tweet, but you will surely be interested in some of the 250+ comments.

      You spend a great deal of your time on here berating anyone who dares criticise the SNP in any way.

      Looks like you may have to consider extending your efforts to other fronts.

    53. Effijy says:

      Topped up the flag fund to reach £3,000.00
      Come on fly the Flag

    54. ben madigan says:

      @ Dr Jim who said
      *It’s no longer ridiculous to say Hoyrood could be shut* Nicola Sturgeon

      here are thoughts on what a constitution is worth and the damage no Constitution causes. Meditate gente!

    55. hopper69 says:

      Bought two flags first indy.
      Just ordered 2 more no probs. Thanks for doing this Tartanpigsy.

    56. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Adam Tomkins

      On Saturday 9th October Liz (oops, sorry, her maj) officially opened the new £431 million Scottish Parliament building at Holyrood. It was revealed that no one would face criminal charges over the fiasco of overcharging. The Crown Office and the Procurator Fiscal have found no grounds for complaint after a probe into the awarding of contracts for the Holyrood site. It had been claimed that one company, Bovis, was given an unfair advantage when bidding for work on the project.

      There was an alternative event just over a mile away atop Edinburgh’s Calton Hill. The Scottish Socialist Party drew up a declaration of independence calling for “an independent Scottish republic built on the principles of liberty, equality, diversity and solidarity.” The declaration of Calton Hill ran from 11am till 1pm and there was a signing ceremony at noon. A crowd of around 500 gathered on a dry, overcast autumn day to hear speakers and entertainers. Constitutional law professor Adam Tompkins of Glasgow University reminded the crowd of the Queen’s previous reluctance to pay tax despite her massive income. He said that the queen had special powers or `prerogatives`, which included being able to appoint anyone she liked as Prime Minister. You cannot sue the monarchy. He said Tony Blair used these special powers to attack Iraq and there would have no Iraq war without the crown. In a democracy it is the people who are sovereign and not the crown! He urged the abolition of the monarchy. “If you want democracy down with the crown!”

    57. Malcolm Pate says:

      Donated yesterday to the Saltire’s worked ok. Keep up the good work.

    58. TheBuchanLoony says:

      Winning an independence referendum tomorrow would still mean us having Scottish Parliament elections in 2021 as it will take at least two years till independence day. That was how it was going to be the last time if we had won in 2014.

    59. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      defo at 9.03

      That willbe a General Election. No list option. But suspect indeed that we will soon be facing a GE.

    60. Proud Cybernat says:

      I suspect I know what the BritNat parties response to this will be – they’ll simply target the Constituency Seats by allowing whichever of the BritNat parties has the nest chance of winning it, making it a straight Indy v Unionist stand-off. It’s probably the only way they can counter such a move.

      Hope you do it tho, Rev.

    61. Proud Cybernat says:


    62. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Ian Brotherhood 09.08pm

      This graphic says it for me:


      Stop asking for permission…..

    63. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Sorry.. 🙁

    64. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill –

      Aye, it’s easy, with hindsight, to see that Tomkins was a cuckoo in the nest. SSP was doing well. I was there that day and remember thinking ‘who the fuck is this guy?’ but there was no obvious reason to doubt his sincerity, especially as he had the kudos of having co-authored that book with Alisdair Gray.

      Twenty, thirty years ago, aye, mibbe he could’ve got away with it. But as well as surviving eyewitnesses, there is plenty of documentary evidence that he was there and said exactly what you laid out above. It’s remarkable that the SNP doesn’t slap him about the chops with that stuff every time he gets to his feet. If he hadn’t done that Calton Hill gig he’d probably be a front-runner for the current vacancy, seeing as how he’s a’constitutional expert’ and all…

    65. Waldo says:

      Seems impossible to be able to read the first comments now?

      I can only get the last page of comments.
      e.g. Clicking the comment icon ( speech bubble) produces: “62 to “The power of ideas””
      Shouldn’t it be “1 to 62” ?

      Maybe it’s just me.

    66. Graf Midgehunter says:

      three times a lady

      3 times lucky..?

    67. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Graf M –

      Aye, indeed!

      Dunno why your link wasn’t showing as ‘live’.

      I’ll try it again…

    68. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Graf M –

      How did you do that?!

      Never mind…got there in the end, and it’s worth the effort.


    69. call me dave says:

      Hmm! Boris gets tough with his party MPs

      Big Auntie radio 5 says it’s “Back me or get sacked and deselected” If they allow control of the house business to go to the remainers and the possibility of a no-deal brexit.

      Anyone ‘sitting on their hands to abstain’ will also be deselected

      High Risk… Doubling down … only 1 of a majority counting DUP. GE will be along soon.

      What a democrat eh!

    70. Effijy says:

      Next signature to the First Ministers Independence petition. Will
      Be Number. 278,000.

    71. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    72. Cubby says:

      Still only 133 donors to the crowdfunder for Indyflags.

    73. defo says:

      Aye Dave MH, I should have been clearer.
      The Brexit boil is about to burst, whatever parliament & the judges say, by the looks of it.
      Can you imagine the SNP leadership getting away with a repeat of last time? (correct as it was, even in the face of vote Ruth for no more refs)
      After all the huffin and puffin,the electorate will be left with a clear, binary choice.
      Broken Brexit Britain, buggered by Boris & the fire sale set.
      Or Scotland as resource rich European partner.
      A bit of a no brainer, put that way.

      Above board negotiation with the EU re our membership, can begin Nov 1st. For the wind up if nothing else. 🙂
      Trade isn’t reserved.

    74. Welsh Sion says:

      Seconding Effijy @ 10.23 pm and furthering the cause:

      Sign, sign, sign!

    75. Welsh Sion says:

      And, Effijy (and others), how about some reciprocity?

      4,209 signatures out of 10,000 so far …

    76. call me dave says:

      Christine Jardine LibDem still up and about. Radio 5

      Called in moaning about how naughty Boris is.

      Gov National Unity & New EU referendum.

      Piece of pie, easy as cake 🙂

      Pope stuck in lift news.

    77. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @call me dave –

      Pope got stuck in the lift?

      Aye, that’s his story.

      He was just wanting 20 minutes peace and quiet to hear the end of the game.


    78. boris says:

      It is feasible that this lot could be asked to form a government of National Unity should the SNP be proscribed following a unilateral declaration of independence by the SNP government should the Scottish public support it.

      Indications are that the political scene is fast changing but something is in the air politically and it stinks.

    79. Effijy says:

      Welsh Sion.


      Wonder if I can sign like a Welsh man now?

      Maybe sign twice.

    80. kapelmeister says:

      So what’s the name of this proposed unionist alliance party?


      Jolly good, jolly good.

    81. Effijy says:

      Haven’t signed this as the White Supremest Son’s of the Empire
      Deserve all the harm that will come with their Brexit and I feel it
      Will take the horrors of Brexit for Scotland to vote for independence.

      Little movement now just under 1.7 Million signatures.

    82. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Welsh Sion

      I’ve signed with great pleasure and hope Wales achieves all that it wishes.

      BTW, the YES Cymru website is quite well designed. 🙂

    83. Mary McCabe says:

      I would worry about splitting the pro-indy list vote.

      You said a lot of folk wouldn’t want to vote for the Greens because of their other policies. Whether or not that’s true, many voters, calculating that the SNP is too strong in their constituency to capture any list seats, will vote tactically for the Greens to stop all the list seats falling to the Unionists.

      The Greens are “the other” well-established pro-indy party and as such are likely to pick up most of these tactical votes. However a brand new pro-indy party on the list, while unlikely to make the breakthrough to a seat of its own, may well take enough from the Greens to let the Unionists in.

    84. call me dave says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Been away a wee while there doing some ironing…keeping in her good books…she’s snoring by this time.

      The Pope story. Aye that’s a good theory. 🙂

    85. Graf Midgehunter says:


      Excuse me asking but shouldn’t Kapelmeister be with double L.

      Kapellmeister. If it, of course, has something to do with churches/choirs/musical quartetts etc.

      Curiosity mainly.

    86. naina tal says:

      Welsh Soon: signed

    87. naina tal says:

      Sorry Welsh Sion :spellchecker aargh!

    88. kapelmeister says:


      You are right. It should be with a double L. I just can’t be bothered changing it.

    89. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 21:47,
      Ian Brotherhood @ 22:07,

      Ach, there’s nothing like a sinner saved.

      D’ye think that’s how the Tory blazer-and-pearl brigade will see it…?

      (Will they even get to know?)

    90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Mary McCabe @ 23:30,

      Your concern isn’t entirely fanciful, Mary. The response though is twofold:

      + It would depend on the SNP reaction. If it stood down on the list in some places and the word got around, the vast majority of pro-indy votes might well shift to an alt-indy party that was, if anything, less radical on the fringes.

      The SNP wouldn’t in fact be able to stand down, though (rules!), even if they were so inclined , but they could put up just a token stand in areas where they were in good form in the constituencies and an alt-indy party was in the lists. (The BritNats did something like that in 2017 already. In some areas they effectively acted in unison.)

      + Due consideration would be given to areas where the Greens already have MSPs. In any case an alt-indy party would not likely stand everywhere, only where it could count. Depending on resources (non trivial!), that might only be in a relatively small number of well-chosen seats.

    91. Alex Birnie says:

      As Stu promised, this needs robust polling of yes voters, with a question that’s going to give a good indication of the level of support for a Wings party. I think James Kelly is right and the question should be along the lines of ….. If the following parties stood on the regional list ballot, who would you vote for?
      Brexit Party
      Change UK
      Liberal Democrats
      Scottish National Party (SNP)
      Wings Over Scotland

    92. Hamish100 says:

      Snp would stand on 2nd list – why shouldn’t they?

      So independence votes split

    93. chicmac says:

      If only somebody had pointed out the d’Hondt AMS flaw in the Westminster Deathstar defence system and the machinations of a, once hidden but now overt, Nazi cabal.

      ‘Scuse me, I think I still have one knuckle to bite.

      PS Not to mention the fact that remain support has been in the lead in tracking polls for the UK for over two years. Whither democracy?

    94. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Hamish100 @ 12:08,

      Up to a point, Lord Copper. The SNP would have to stand, since otherwise the Electoral Commission could declare the two efforts a coalition, in effect a single party.

      But in some choice areas, the SNP could choose to steer people by “nods and winks” if they wished to. (Mutual advantage, after all. That’s the whole point.)

      If you doubt that’s possible, just look back. In 2017 the Tories eg. took Gordon from Alex Salmond, no less. The constituency used to be a FibDem stronghold before that, but they put up a dummy candidate that time with no campaign and saved their money for spending on Jo Swansong.

      ‘Sakes, we even had Kez (remember her?) telling Labour voters to vote Tory!

      This stuff though is all speculation right now, because (as others have already mentioned) there will almost certainly be one (or two? =grin=) other preceding contests before then.

    95. Cubby says:

      Just seen the disgraceful massive banner displayed by Rangers fans at Ibrox. What sort of morons think a banner like that can ever be acceptable in any modern decent society. Not a word about it in the Britnat TV coverage. Just ignored.

      Bloody disgusting threatening and incitement to violence. How a banner like that can be accepted by Rangers management and stewards is just unbelievable. It paints a picture of Glasgow and Scotland being populated by mindless barbarians. Perhaps that was somebody’s objective.

    96. Hamish100 says:

      Laura maxwell of the BBC scotchland basically saying that parts of Glasgow such as Govan are zoned as unionists areas and therefore no marches contrary that view should be allowed. The BBC trying to getto areas like Belfast?
      Shame on them. Now we have ermine clad McConnell now coming on to attack the Scottish government over sectarianism. I have no time for Irish unionist marches nor Irish republican.

      The bare face hypocrisy of labour, tories and yes the Greens who gave the green light ( no pun intended to bigots) and their bad behaviour in the wider society. I await James Kelly to apologise on the matter.( I don’t really)

      Jack McConnel crawl back to the House of Lords

      Divide and rule.

    97. Golfnut says:


      Indy1, the SNP stated that 6 months was ample time for negotiations and we should stick to to that timescale. Scotland’s Parliament should assume full executive powers the day after a winning vote, Repeal the Act of Union, withdraw from the Treaty of Union and negotiate the transfer of administrative functions as a Sovereign State. There will be years of wrangling over debt and assets, that can be done at our leisure.

    98. Fergus Green says:

      @Welsh Sion – signed

    99. Hackalumpoff says:

      See Nana’s links here:

    100. Capella says:

      @ Welsh Sion – signed. Good luck. I like the website design, all that Welsh dragon red is cheerful!

    101. Alex Birnie says:

      Most folk are missing the point about the issue of a Wings party. It is irrelevant what the SNP think about it. The only thing that matters is how many yes voters realise what Stu is trying to do, and whether they would go along with it. If Stu forms a new party without polling yes voters, then he would be doing exactly the same thing as RISE and Solidarity did last election ….. “pinching” SNP votes for selfish reasons. If the poll numbers are not substantially above the numbers required to take seats (around 5% of the regional vote), then there would be a danger of LESS pro-Indy seats in Holyrood. In those circumstances, Stu has promised not to do this. On the other hand, if polling indicates that a substantial number of yes voters in each region would vote Wings, then it is (in my opinion) worth “throwing away the insurance policy” that a second SNP vote is, and “gambling” on a Wings vote. The key point is that Stu has to ask the right question and not “do an Archie Stirling” as outlined in James Kelly’s excellent blog “Scot Goes Pop!”.

    102. Abulhaq says:

      British Democracy…first define the term, so could we have a definition from the leaders and citizens of a former global empire which did not acquire and hold its territories by being ‘democratic’.

    103. Contrary says:

      So, Nicola Sturgeon is on GMS, and was asked about Stuart Campbell’s intent to put up candidates for the list vote and she said (blah blah) ‘… gaming the system’. I strongly disapprove of leading politicians using language like this & implying the system can be gamed!

      How is it ‘gaming’ the system, putting up candidates? Moron. I don’t get what the big deal is, anyway, surely we should have lots of different parties, all supporting independence, to give us some choice? To imply we should only have one choice of party, well, that sounds a little bit undemocratic, surely the answer should have been ‘bring it on’? Bah. Politicians.

    104. Abulhaq says:

      For those weary of the SNP promoting social liberal politics before the main theme fight for independence an alternative choice has wings.

    105. Capella says:

      Re a Regional party “taking votes away” from the SNP – surely this is a good thing as long as it is an independence party and not a unionist party. But crucially, an independence party people will vote for.
      All those Regional SNP votes counted for nothing. The Greens don’t get enough votes to win enough seats on their own.

      I think Stu should run another opinion poll and see what the verdict is.

    106. Welsh Sion says:

      Thanks to all who have signed, so far:

      And if you can come to the AUOB March on Saturday – you’d be more than welcome with your saltires an’ aw’:

    107. call me dave says:

      “When will you turn of the taps in the oil fields FM”?
      asks radio shortbread referring to climate change emergency.

      FM gave an answer but did not respond with the obvious that at the moment the hairy grasping hand of WM-UK is in control of oil and gas extraction with it’s other hand firmly on our throats pushing us away. FGS! 🙁

    108. call me dave says:

      off -of course 🙁

    109. Terry says:

      DYNAMITE. Jacob Reed mogg just now on LBC. One of the doctors who wrote operation yellow hammer phoned in! Check it out at 8.50. Dr nicol said people would die. Mogg was not happy. He didn’t have an answer. That clip deserves to be put out there. Anything you can do Stu?

    110. Clootie says:

      The Holyrood voting system is being “gamed”. However it is being done by Unionist parties who have discovered that they can pack Holyrood without the effort, cost and hardwork of actually gaining the publics trust.

      I need another party as an option for my second vote. A Party focused on Independence above all else.

    111. Breeks says:

      Capella says:
      2 September, 2019 at 8:40 am

      ….I think Stu should run another opinion poll and see what the verdict is…

      I’d like to see a poll on support for a Constitutional intervention to sink Scotland’s Brexit before it happens, or an IndyRef next year or whenever…

      We don’t require any new mandate to pull the rug from under Westminster’s feet on Constitutional grounds. We simply challenge the mechanism whereby they “think” they can circumvent and subjugate Scotland’s sovereign Remain mandate. Properly, they cannot. They have no mandate. They have no authority. Their “UK pooled sovereignty” such as it is, is only valid if it carries our consent, but Brexit is very different from routine Westminster business because we asked specifically to give our consent to Brexit and by emphatic majority we explicitly refused to give such consent.

      Once proven, and recognised proven, that Westminster cannot overrule Scottish Sovereignty, all it’s Brexit manoeuvres are ultra vires, and beyond “the limit of their authority”. If Brexit then goes ahead, it’s only for England and Wales, the people who voted for it. And if Brexit doesn’t go ahead, then it was defeated by a sovereign constitutional Scottish veto, and we have another precedent established which leaves the UK Union untenable.

      We MUST NOT let Brexit slip through our fingers on the promise of a… dare I say it, “jam tomorrow” Referendum next year. Our Independence is there for the taking. Do not blow this opportunity.

      There’s been a three year window of opportunity to have a referendum. It never happened, and that time has arguably been squandered. It’s gone now. We are rapidly nearing a state of emergency and there is only now adequate time for decisive constitutional intervention. Westminster cannot overrule the Sovereign will of Scotland, and we should defend that principle with the same tenacity of Europe and Ireland defending the Backstop.

      We need Ian Blackford to put substance into his rhetoric that Scotland will not be Brexited against it’s will. We need International Constitutional Law proactively backing his position. If the SNP won’t do it, then we need a different reputable Authority to see it done.

      I believe one person with financial support, like a Scottish Gina Millar, would suffice to bring a legal challenge, but our Indy-Scottish Establishment should hang it’s head if it holds back and doesn’t throw its authority behind the constitutional initiative. Now is the time.

    112. Capella says:

      @ Breeks – the poll about a Wings YES party is for Holyrood 2021. Planning ahead is never wasted.
      Re the Constitutional question. Stu has already polled people on when they want an Indyref2. If you click on the POLLS tab in the header you will probably find it.

      Maybe the SNP already know the answer to the constitutionak question. But also maybe they are sticking to their strategy (which they are not telling anybody about it).

    113. Capella says:

      Apos re typos.

    114. manandboy says:

      Bloomberg • noreply [at] mail [dot] bloombergbusiness [dot] com

      Spot the deliberate mistake :

      “What’s Happening? This week is shaping up to be one of the most significant in recent British political history. It will dictate the outcome of the U.K.’s departure from the European Union, could prompt a general election, will probably see the upending of Britain’s unwritten constitution, may spell the end of careers, and will likely shape the U.K. for decades to come.”

    115. galamcennalath says:

      Apparently Piers Morgan got het up about a tweet saying Brexit supporters should be denied the flu jab.

      I would have thought if there are critical shortages, Brexit supporters would volunteer to do the decent thing and be the ones to do without, no? If they’re so keen to get out at any cost, they should be willing to pay that price?

      Nae chance! They will be the ones elbowing their way to the front of the queue and pushing others aside. That’s the far right style. Deil take the hindmaist.

      And Rees Mogg faking offence at a doctor on LBC asking what levels of fatalities are acceptable if it’s no-deal.

      The nasty brigade have taken over, make no mistake.

    116. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Terry 09:04

      Watch here

      Yellowhammer expert top doctor on No Deal medicines supplies phones into Commons Leader’s radio phone-in to confront him, is dismissed by Rees Mogg as “Project Fear”

    117. Dan says:

      @Terry at 9.04am

      The audio clip re. LBC / yellowhammer doctor is linked to in following tweet.

    118. auld highlander says:

      Nana’s links are well worth a few minutes of your time today.

    119. Benhope says:

      AS a technophobe could someone explain why I cannot access the below the line comments on the main thread but only by clicking on the graph article on twitter?

      I have noticed this previously and have missed some btl threads if there is not a (read more ) comment at the bottom of an article.

      Apologies if I am being a real dumbo !

    120. naina tal says:

      Ben hope: At the top of each article is a weevroond black thing wi the number of posts. Click on that. Takes you right in!

    121. naina tal says:

      Benhope wee roond of course. Big fingers and wee tablet thingy

    122. manandboy says:

      What began as a Treaty of Union in 1707 has been considerably added to by England by way of a type of glue – to make it harder to separate. This glue is designed to make Scotland adhere to England in a posture of almost complete dependence. Such an adhesive is made up mainly of propaganda, which is a euphemism for lying with cunning. England is particularly good at lying with cunning.

      For Scotland to become Independent, this glue has to be sufficiently softened, the cunning lies exposed, to enable separation. Like steaming the stamp
      off an envelope. The more steam, the more truth, the softer the glue, and the easier the separation becomes.

      Just a little more steam for just a little longer is required before Scotland will join the other 62 countries which have regained their independence from enforced English rule.
      It’ll be nothing unusual, just a little less frequently than before.

      Independence is normal. So, go on Scotland. Get unstuck. You owe it to yourself.

    123. Capella says:

      Jenny Eeles link to articles stating it was Scotland’s constitutional right to retain her Parliament & institutions as per the #TreatyOfUnion

    124. finnz says:

      Need a real flashy and recognisable name for this new party.

      Also some household names to stand

    125. Hamish100 says:

      Alex birnie,

      If Stu forms a new party without polling yes voters, then he would be doing exactly the same thing as RISE and Solidarity did last election ….. “pinching” SNP votes for selfish reasons.

      Yes he would be taking even more votes away from the the SNP.

      As for contrary ( new blogger ) on here? Calling The First Minister ” moron” I don’t think you deserve an appropriate response.

    126. mike cassidy says:

      While we’re all waiting to see what happens next

      Here’s something that will not cheer you up.

      Is Trump LITERALLY unfit for office?

    127. manandboy says:

      It must be just about possible to link both a lie detector and a breathalyser to politics blogs, (and TV and radio) and to make it a pre-condition to posting comments, that both tests be undertaken.

      Were such technology in place it would make life online a whole lot better.

      Alcohol – a bloggers worst enemy, or just plain stupidity?

    128. Charles says:

      WOW- thats a lot of Unionist interest you managed to get there, they might even ask you for an interview to create some division in the YES movement and misrepresent you…oh wait.

    129. galamcennalath says:

      Blair has advised Jeremy Corbyn not to allow Boris Johnson to call a general election until after Brexit is resolved. What does ‘resolved’ mean? Cancelled? An exit deal through WM? Or a no-deal crash out for which the Tories take the blame?

      “Resolved’ strikes me as a totally inappropriate word to use! It’s meaningless, but gives the impression of a popular solution being found. That is impossible. Whatever the Brexit outcome, it will have minority support in England.

      Blair is probably right that the split opposition vote will give a Tory majority. However it’s split because Labour has never had a clear position. Tories want Leave, SNP and LibDems want to Remain, Labour wants …. who really knows?

    130. Dr Jim says:

      It doesn’t matter what Scotland votes for says Piers Morgan, Scotland’s FM says yes it does and points out why

      Well it matters but you are part of the UK so it doesn’t matter says Piers Morgan

      Scotland sold into bondage to a people who can’t speak their own language so they reinvent the meaning of words to suit the language they think they’re speaking

      The position of the UK is that as long as Scotland is in it Scotland must remain silent unless we agree with whatever language the UK (which is England) speaks

      Scotland voted to remain in the UK then England changed the terms and conditions of that, Scotland says hang on we don’t care for this new arrangement so we’ll leave, England says no sorry you voted to remain once so that’s it till the end of time because we know that we can’t con you again

      I’m reminded of the movie Amistad where the people in power decided if the black folks they held prisoners were slaves, and if they were slaves whose slaves were they while lawyers argued and words were translated from language to language, and all the while the Amistad chained up prisoners spoke to each other in their language that nobody in power understood because to them the prisoners were speaking gibberish

      Scotland speaks fluent English now as do many countries around the world, it seems the only country who can’t is England and they’re now the people speaking gibberish …

      And we don’t have a translator for that

    131. jfngw says:

      I seem to remember some time back someone tweeted on here they thought th Daily Record was becoming more pro indy. Today they appoint Paul Hutcheon political editor.

      The MSM in Scotland (the UK actually) is like some masonic circle, it’s who you know that counts and your political stance. They believe they are chosen for their free thinking thought, when in fact they are chosen because they don’t actually have free thinking thought, their political view is in perfect symbiotic resonance with the establishment.

      The people that in 2014 were being described as fantasist’s have been closer to the ball than any of the so called journalistic experts. I can’t remember any of the wildly overpaid BBC experts getting anywhere near the accuracy of some of the ordinary Yes peoples predictions.

    132. Colin Alexander says:


      Readers of Wings comments know all about misrepresentation.

      Any criticism of the SNP’s personnel or strategy, or lack of strategy is met with howls of: “you’re anti-independence”, “unionist”, “troll”, “SIU” or some other misrepresentation of who that commenter is.

      And the favourite one of Dave McEwan Hill (DMH): “You think we’re aw daft”.

      DMH who refers to Labour as supporting indyref as proof that the SNP have the right strategy. Just days before Labour then say, aye indyref, is the right thing, next halakaplunkTuesday, when it faws oan a Wednesday.

      Aye Indyref, if and when a Labour British Govt decides to give you permission, some day in the future.

      That’s the same Labour that have been promising to abolish the Lords for the last hundred years, and told us about the Weapons of Mass Destruction, so you can take Labour’s promises about indyref as truth, can’t you?

      And don’t get me started on Weasel Words Mundell or Ruth nae truth. Remember them? Yesterday’s stooges for the Empire.

    133. Colin Alexander says:

      And don’t forget Bullshit Broon and his Vow.

    134. Breeks says:

      Capella says:
      2 September, 2019 at 10:53 am

      Jenny Eeles link to articles stating it was Scotland’s constitutional right to retain her Parliament & institutions as per the #TreatyOfUnion

      If I still have the link at home, I’ll post it later, but it detailed the SNP’S roll behind ‘encouraging’ the EU to insist on Devolution. Certainly wasn’t Labour’s idea.

      Clear illustration of how we benefit from European backing, which will stop the moment we leave the EU with no deal or withdrawal agreement.

      It is sheer folly to wait until after Brexit to address our subjugation.

    135. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says:

      The position of the UK is that as long as Scotland is in it Scotland must remain silent unless we agree with whatever language the UK (which is England) speaks


      Of course, they have their own logic to justify that situation, and they don’t hold back from using their argument … Scotland is a region of the UK (which is (Greater) England) in the same way as Yorkshire or Devon is. Other regions go along with the majority, so they can’t see what’s wrong with Scotland following suit. For 300 years it has, after all, in their eyes.

      We see it differently, naturally. We see the nation and country of Scotland in a Union.

      However, there’s a bottom line – if the majority of Scots democratically decide to withdraw from that Union then their believe system becomes irrelevant.

    136. Cubby says:

      Corbyn making a speech this morning says British Labour will not only protect hard won democratic rights but will expand democracy. What he didn’t says was that he meant for England only. No democracy for you Scots. Scots have to come cap in hand asking for a sect 30 and I’ll think about it. Maybe ayes maybe naws.

      Corbyn just an old style Britnat colonial.

      Britnat Labour not just liars but downright hypocrites.

    137. charlietu says:

      Unionists will be all over this they would be over the moon for a new vote-splitting indy party unionist trolls will be working 24/7 to get it to happen…

    138. Footsoldier says:

      Current SNP strategy of pursuing Brexit No Deal leaves me cold.

      Most political pundits are talking of an early GE possibly in October – are we ready and geared up? Not something SNP HQ are talking about to branches.

    139. Clootie says:

      Foot soldier

      “Pursuing Brexit No Deal” ???

      Do you mean opposing?

    140. scotspatriot says:

      Foot soldier 1245hrs
      The SNP are getting ready now, and are at an advanced stage.
      Keep cool, and we’ll do this !

    141. Republicofscotland says:

      According to some media reports Labour has abandoned its call for a vote of no confidence in Johnson’s government. It would appear not enough LibDem or Tory rebels want to see Corbyn in number ten.

      Instead Labour looks more likely to try and take control of the Commons Order Paper, and attempt to pass a bill to force Johnson’s government to seek a further extension from the EU. Though its not yet a foregone conclusion that remainers will take control of the Commons Order Paper.

      Although the EU would probably be sympathetic to a further extension, its chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said that the Irish backstop will not be scrapped.

      Throw in that Johnson knows fine well failure to leave the EU on the 31st of October, would seriously damage his chances of winning a post-Brexit GE.

      It does now increasingly that we will leave the EU without a deal on October 31st.

    142. uno mas says:

      @ call me dave 9.01a.m.

      The answer to the the when will Scotland turn off the oil field taps question is the same as the leave it in the ground nonsense that being that they will be turned off when U.S.A., Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Nigeria, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Venezuela and any other oil producing countries around the world including England with the fields they stole from Scotland turn there´s off.
      Plus at least in Scotland´s case and thanks to the Scottish Governments commitment to renewable sources of power and income we will be in a position to actually do so long before most if not all of the above nations.

    143. jfngw says:

      I think we have all noticed how the UK broadcast media are enthusiastic to shout down and interrupt Scotland’s First Minister. They would never dream of doing this to a Prime Minister, look at the reverence they show to Cameron, May & Johnson.

      The last PM they decided to round on was Gordon Brown, he was useless but no more so than his successors. The only difference was he was Scots, so when you see the continual ‘Scots are anti-English’ it is the usual accuse your opponents of what you are doing.

    144. Thepnr says:


      Nicola Surgeon has just tweeted that on talk of a UK General Election, she says “bring it on” with the caveat that it must be before 31st Oct.

    145. Thepnr says:

      Here’s another update on the talk of another General Election to be announced in the next couple of days.

      The truth be told no one really knows, especially journalists!

    146. mountain shadow says:

      Rather than face a vote of no confidence and lose it appears Boris will go for a General Election instead….

    147. Dan says:

      @mike cassidy at 11:11 am

      I’m sure we all have our off days but jeezo.
      Makes you wonder what the people that voted for him now think as they watch that performance.
      Then again, if they are the type of folk that think fighting space wars is cool, maybe I’d be best to avoid learning their thought processes.

      I recall the previous concerns in Indyref 1 about the threats from planets afar.
      UK defence secretary Hammond was the man that told us an independent Scotland would be defenceless against attacks from outer space.
      Because clearly, any alien civilisation that posses the advanced technology to voyage the vast distances of interstellar space is going to be deterred by a Trident submarine that can barely manage a successful orbit of the Isle of Skye, and for that reason we’d be better together…

    148. jfngw says:

      Remember when D.Trump said he would build a wall and make the Mexicans pay for it.

      Well for the last 300 years Scotland has been in a Union that has built infrastructure in the SE of England and made Scotland pay towards it. Few ideas is original, just a rehash of something that has been happening already.

      The Mexicans told Trump to piss off, Scottish Unionist just give them their wallets and want to keep on doing so.

    149. Charles says:

      Colin Alexander : I found it more bizarre that Wings started a house fire and then shouts ‘ look how popular i am ‘ when passers by gather around to watch the flames.
      Lets see the viewing going forward once the fire is out, and the damage can be assessed.

    150. Dan says:

      Looks like it’s ta ta to Tata steel plant in south Wales.

    151. auld highlander says:

      And how much is another election going to cost?

      The last snap general election cost the long suffering tax payer over £140 million.

    152. Dr Jim says:

      The guy who runs the British retail consortium says YES there will be food shortages definite without a doubt

      Sky news says yeah but this is only an inconvenience isn’t it, surely it’ll all get back to normal quickly enough

      The British retail consortium guy says (paraphrasing) are you f…..g nuts

    153. Vronsky says:

      Maybe you should stress that this is a contingency plan. If the SNP fails to call indy2 their vote will collapse and the party will split. Of course you might be wrong about a Wings party being useful, but somebody will have to do something – the status quo will have gone.

    154. Les Wilson says:

      manandboy says:

      While you are talking about the ” Union”
      Here is an interesting view into the mindset at the time a wee while after it was signed.

      October 25, 1785.
      AT a meeting held here this day, in consequence of advertisements published in the news-papers, by order of the Convener, calling a meeting of the Noblemen, Gentlemen, Freeholders, and Commissioners of Supply of this county, to take under their consideration a Bill now pending in Parliament, for diminishing the number, and increasing the salaries of the Judges of the Courts of Session and Exchequer in Scotland, they came to the following Resolutions:

      I. RESOLVED, That the articles of the Union between England and Scotland, cannot be infringed by the British Parliament, without the consent of the people of Scotland; because the number of members from Scotland being inconsiderable, compared with the number of members from England, those articles, upon the faith of which Scotland resigned her independency, if not immutable, would be negatory.

      II. RESOLVED, That the permanency of the Court of Session, as constituted at the time of the Union, being one of those articles, the attempt to alter that constitution, without consulting the people of Scotland, was most improper and disrespectful.

      III. RESOLVED, That we will not consent to a change in the number of the Judges, unless Parliament shall at the same time, grant us the privilege of a Jury in civil causes, or some other mode by which the forms of procedure may be shortened, and law-suits rendered less tedious and expensive, with the approbation of the people of Scotland.”

      (Signed) HUGH MONTGOMERIE, Preses.
      By order of the Meeting, JOHN BOSWELL, Clk.”
      – Caledonian Mercury, 29th October, 1785.

    155. Hamish100 says:


      I seem to remember some time back someone tweeted on here they thought the Daily Record was becoming more pro indy. Today they appoint Paul Hutcheon political editor.
      I quoted the female reporter from the Record on the John Beattie show when Clegg’s move was being announced ( due to Dugdale debacle?) and his links with the Civil servant allegedly involved in calling out the Alex Salmond case? She is still in post I believe.

      I think this appointment of Hutcheon indicates the Record is not pro Scottish. Tom Gordon must be fuming.

      Obviously he missed the advertisement call ” Old boys network”.

      It beholds Independence supporters to stop buying ( ah but they have a good sports page) unionist papers.

    156. Doug says:

      England continues to implode. There isn’t even a united England, never mind a so-called united kingdom.

    157. call me dave says:

      “Don’t do it Jeremy watch the Elephant” says Blair.

      What a dilemma for Corbyn as Boris eggs him on, double-daring him to be or not to be a…. ?

      Meanwhile North of the wall the FM looks down Sarf waiting for the beginning of the end to begin. 🙂

      It’s like Game of Thrones.

      Big tadoo on Auntie darn Sarf about rocket mail.

      Same guy also was allowed to try it in Western Isles way back then. Of course it was failure. 🙂

    158. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Hackalumpoff @ 08:09,

      Thanks as always for nana’s sterling efforts.

      This one in particular is a zinger:

    159. galamcennalath says:

      I’ve watched the Netflix documentary The Great Hack about voter manipulation. Fascinating. Unsurprising for anyone from a techie background like me.

      One trick is to identify ‘persuadables’ online and bombard them this ads which will persuade them over to your side.

      What I found very interesting was that another trick where you target a particular demographic and persuade them not to vote at all. You put them off a party, politics, and even voting. They stay at home. Apparently an election in Trinidad was swung by 6% by encouraging young Afro Caribbean voters not to vote.

      Something made me think this technique will be deployed in Scotland. The BritNats know their voters turn out, rather than change the minds of Yes/SNP/Green voters, it will be simpler to encourage them to not vote.

      For a taste of what all this malipulation is about, the vid by Carole Cadwalladr is excellent.

      Is a fair and democratic IndyRef2 even possible?

    160. Dr Jim says:

      The Herald refers to the act of a *Banana Republic* when talking about the Scottish government taking control of Fergusons shipyard

      I do hope the workers at Fergusons their families and the whole of that area that depends on that work take note of how the Herald would have liked them to lose their jobs

    161. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Republicofscotland @ 13:10,

      The no-confidence option is what BoJo wants, because it gives him a free pass to shut down his opponents in HoC while the UK coasts through a no-deal Brexit. I haven’t much time for Corby but he isn’t stupid and won’t hand Boris a win on a platter.

      The intent now I think is to force the junta to ask the EU for another delay (which in the circumstances they will do) in order to damage BoJo’s standing with the knuckledraggers (as you recognise) and win more time for manoevre, which in the event likely means a UKGE before the actual-final-definite-honest Brexit.

      But with that possibility and a serious risk that the courts will declare a push-back, BoJo may have to engineer an earlier UKGE all by himself.

      Meanwhile the Tory Party is beginning to sunder apart as he threatens a clearout of internal opponents.

      This is a Mexican standoff. And they don’t usually end well.

      Time to get out before we’re dragged down any further by it. The Precationary Principle in action.

    162. Dr Jim says:

      Here’s another one folk might not have noticed because they don’t watch telly but over the last three or four weeks the telly has been chocka block with war films and documentaries about *the war* with feel good Britishness and triumphs over adversity, and *the war*, and the Blitz, which was in *the war*!

      Sure we’ve got no vegetables but that’s OK we’ll eat nettles and make nettle tea, we did it in *the war* so we can dashed well do it again, we’ll show those Johnny Foreigners a thing or two, eh chaps

      Not be long before we’re issued with leaflets on how to make our ration of Spam last a month like we did in *the war*

      There are folk buying this shit as if it’s not a choice

    163. Capella says:

      @ galamcennalath – I agree. It is true that the 2017 GE saw a big drop in the SNP vote which allowed the Tories to gain 12 seats from tactically voting LibDems and Labour.

      The reason for the drop in votes (c 500,000 I think) is often said to be the lack of an independence campaign. But could it also be that the Integrity Initiative or whatever it’s parent company called itself then, manipulated voters to stay at home.

      Is the GRA Self ID a secret plot to undermine SNP votes at the next contest? Same with the Alex Salmond trial? The Scottish Civil Service is riddled with Unionists who would be in an excellent position to sow the seeds of discontent with the SNP. Which is why I find it astonishing that the SNP still pursue this Self ID fiasco in spite of its toxic effect on female voters.

      Sleepers in the admin?

    164. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 15:33,

      Voter disengagement. I think that’s essentially what happened to us in 2017. But it can work the other way round too. That’s what Brexit is doing for free. Hitting all the little JKRowlings who “gave the marriage one last chance” and are now sick of having done so. Some will turn around, but others will just refuse to turn out next time to defend their Union.

      But it means not just having a plausible pathway out, it also means going on the front foot with the framing and asking people “if Scotland were independent and being offered a Union with this shambolic England, what is the case for joining?”.

      Short-circuit the Project Fear stuff by forcing our opponents to defend their preciousss Union. Which of course they can’t.

    165. galamcennalath says:

      @Dr Jim

      ” the war “

      Yesterday’s front page of the Express. A reprint for the 80th anniversary of the invasion of Poland and the UK government’s demands.

      Subliminal message far from subtle or subliminal!

    166. Dr Jim says:

      The proportion of evidence pointing to Independence now is so overwhelming that the only folk left who don’t want it are outright hard Unionist ideologists or single issue voters who demand guarantees of 100% of everything they think they want

      Currency, EU membership, the weather

    167. Capella says:

      @ Dr Jim – I saw the “Banana Republic” front page headline in the Tom Gordon article in the Herald.

      It turns out he is quoting an American “entrepreneur” – perhaps shipping oligarch would be more accurate – who is obviously seething that he can’t pick up UK businesses at rock bottom prices.

      If he waits a couple of months he can scoop up loadsa bargains. Unless our Banana Republic leadership prevails, of course.

      Many a UK and US fortune was made in bananas.

    168. robertknight says:


      “Is a fair and democratic IndyRef2 even possible?”


      So why bother? As I’ve advocated previously, next GE the SNP stand on single-issue ticket of Indy – nothing else!

      If >50% of votes cast AND >50% of seats won go to the SNP then we’re off. (Greens being persuaded to sit this one out).

      We (‘Yes’) will never have a war chest big enough for a GE shortly followed by IndyRef2.

      The Weirs effectively bank rolled IndyRef1 and you can’t expect/rely upon such generosity on the part of one or two individuals.

      Forget IndyRef2/Section 30. WM GE is the path to take.

    169. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 15:35,

      And I thought that mentioned headline was a reference to the UK and its right-wing junta!

      Jeez, talking about (alleged) journos missing the wall and hitting the sky. What planet are these people on?

    170. galamcennalath says:

      The BBC tell us … Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said the UK “needs” a general election, as it “would give the people a choice between two very different directions for the country”.

      And which two directions are those, Jeremy?

      One big reason for the stalemate is there are three directions, each supported my groups of MPs – crash out, leave in a planned orderly manner, or remain. The only majorities so far have been rejections of one option by supporters of the other two i.e. rejecting remain or no-deal.

      And to confuse further, some members who pretend to wish to leave in an orderly manner support an EURef2 which they hope will give a Remain result!

    171. vlad (not that one) says:

      Capella @ 15:47
      Sleepers in the admin to undermine independence drive?
      I should consider it a miraccle if there were none. There is no better place to plant them.
      But sleepers can only do so much to stem the tide.

    172. Colin Alexander says:


      It’s the SNP who persuaded 500,000 not to vote in 2017 with their Strong Voice at Westminster Unionist-style GE campaign.

      If they do that again, I’ll be joining the 500,000, and saving my voting for the Wings independence party.

    173. mike cassidy says:

      Dr Jim

      There were always going to be ‘war’ programmes around the 80th anniversary of WW2 starting.

      And no doubt a quick GE would see a revival of the ‘we all fought together” school of UK thought.

      I’m just curious as to how November’s 30th anniversary of the end of the Berlin Wall is going to play!

    174. Dr Jim says:

      Don’t be thinking the SNP are skint because they’re a long long way from that
      For the last five years over 120.000 members have been paying in their monthly subs plus multiple donations throughout that time and if you’re a member they’re giving cars away as raffle prizes as well, you don’t do that if you’re not bringing in the cash

      There’s quite a few bob in the SNP kitty to withstand any campaign anybody wants to throw at us, that’s one of the reasons you’ll see Nicola Sturgeon totally unfazed by any mentions of general elections

      I must’ve bought that helecopter all by myself, well maybe a tyre

    175. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Colin Alexander at 4.28

      Gotta laugh.
      How very predictable.

    176. galamcennalath says:

      If there is a GE we need a 2015 result rather than the good, but less impressive, 2017 result!

      Indications are that Indy will feature strongly …. IMO it must!

    177. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 16:28,

      Absolutely. A UKGE will certainly call the bluff of JC the (tarnished) Saviour. Lord knows how the Labour Party will massage their current mess into a manifesto. (A credible manifesto, that is.)

      One small consolation for them, I suppose, is that they will likely lose less MPs from Scotland than will the Tories. =grin=

      (Ah, I will truly savour watching the election returns from places like Aberdeen South. Almost as much as the previous ones for the likes of the Alexander Brothers.)

      Whatever other consequences there might be, a GE must surely kill off any last fond hope of those who currently still cling to the belief that the UK as a whole can be U-turned from disaster.

    178. manandboy says:

      Still gathering at 10 Downing Street for an emergency Cabinet Meeting.

    179. call me dave says:

      Boris had a Windsor for tea to discuss care for people with dementia.

      What a PM we have eh! Compassion oozing from every pore.

      What Barbara had to say we don’t know. She’s away for a drink at the Old Vic.

      £ slips against the dollar and the Euro all day.

      The DOW will be chiming in soon.

    180. Thepnr says:

      Johnson/Cummings have invited the DUP into number 10 for the drinks party due to kick off after the cabinet meeting where all Tory MP’s have been requested though probably few rebels will be turning up.

    181. ahundredthidiot says:

      manandboy @5:02

      Is Farage in it??

    182. Breeks says:

      Funny how Unionists and Brexiteers all have such faith in their beliefs that they can’t bear to see them tested in a ballot.

      It’s almost like they’re very insecure people lacking in self confidence.

    183. Ealasaid says:

      In-D-Car Gordon Ross 2.9.19 – I have now seen photographic evidence

    184. call me dave says:

      6:00pm Statement from Boris from No10.

    185. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Interesting tweet on the Rev’s twitter feed, suggesting, if we have a snap General Election, it would produce a hung parliament.

      IF the SNP turned the GE in Scotland into a de facto independence poll, given the forecast figures, the Tories just might buy into Independence for Scotland.

      Take away the 59 Scottish seats, and, allowing for the current 7 Sinn Fein seats, the Tories would have a theoretical majority of 19, and be able to do as they wished – No Deal Brexit, or whatever.

      In their determination to have this No Deal, the present lot of Tories just might be prepared to let Scotland go to get their No Deal Brexit through.

    186. call me dave says:


      Saw it earlier… hope he’s wrong about his theory of the direction of travel the WM are on. But anything can happen. 🙂

    187. Thepnr says:

      Here’s the bill expected to be used in any emergency debate granted by the speaker in the commons.

      I thought it was meant to be kept simple? I guess the motion will be simple.

    188. robertknight says:

      If BawJaws buys off the Demented Ulster Puritans with promises of barbed wire and bungs, and then calls a GE, then that becomes Scotland’s lifeboat for escaping from the RMS Brexit.

      The SNP hierarchy had better recognise it as such and forget all talk of Section 30 Orders being a prerequisite to supporting any Corbin or ‘Unity’ government.

      They must seize the opportunity to have a single issue campaign of Indy.

      If they insist on playing by Westminster’s rules then they/we are guaranteed to lose.

    189. Heart of Galloway says:

      If I were in the habit of handing the bookies an occasional fiver I would bet that if BoJo gets mugged in the HoC anti no deal vote this week he will immediately challenge Labour to a GE.

      Which Labour of course will accept – and hamstrung by Corbyn’s shilly-shallying over Brexit will get hammered in England as the Remain vote splits with the Lib Dems and Greens.

      Johnson will hoover up Brexit Party votes South of the Tweed in a quasi fascist pact with Farage to poll 40% plus – a support plenty big enough to secure a comfortable majority for his new jackbooted English nationalist government and an October 31 EU no deal exit.

      In our country the SNP will win 50+ seats on an independence/pro EU/IndyRef2 ticket and all the white noise surrounding IndyRef2 will be tuned out to leave the people of Scotland with a crystal clear choice between two very different futures.

      The above forecast comes with a high grade health warning that it could turn out to be a pile of keech but right now it seems as good as any. And I do write this with a growing nervous tension…

    190. galamcennalath says:

      Boris to address England at 6pm.

      We in Scotland get to watch too 🙂

    191. Welsh Sion says:

      Heart og Galloway @ 5.53 pm

    192. manandboy says:

      Boris Johnson to give statement outside No 10 – live news

      In 5 minutes

    193. call me dave says:

      Possible 3-month Brexit delay mooted!

    194. Welsh Sion says:

      Ignore my last, Heart of Galloway – going to be swamped, anyway! 🙂

    195. Heart of Galloway says:

      Meanwhile, Paul Hutcheom named as Cleggy’s replacement on the Record…

    196. Nana says:

      A wee something I spotted

      This is quite something. The Lord Advocate, Scotland’s chief legal officer, wants to intervene in @JolyonMaugham @joannaccherry et al and Gina Miller cases. Will accuse UK govt of an “an abuse of executive power” over prorogation.

    197. Thepnr says:

      Boris Johnson will say that If MPs vote tomorrow for another delay, then Wednesday there will be vote on general election.

      Hope Corbyn calls the election on his terms and not Johnsons.

    198. Thepnr says:

      Protesters outside downing Street making plenty of noise! Surprised the BBC hasn’t cut them out LOL.

    199. call me dave says:

      Just appeared on WoS twitter:

      This is quite something. The Lord Advocate, Scotland’s chief legal officer, wants to intervene in @JolyonMaugham @joannaccherry et al and Gina Miller cases. Will accuse UK govt of an “an abuse of executive power” over prorogation.

    200. Robert Louis says:

      What a total t*sser dictator Johnson is. What a total w@nk of a speech.

      Dicttator Boris should be in jail.

    201. manandboy says:

      A Party Political Broadcast. Nothing else. No GE.

    202. robertknight says:

      BawJaws the Bullshitter.

      That’s 3 minutes of my life I won’t get back.

    203. call me dave says:

      That was a bit of a dead cat he just threw on the table.

      Nothing to see there move along.

    204. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Just listened to our Right Honourable Prime Minister.

      Where is Eric Morecambe when we need him – at the end of his speech it was crying out for Eric’s great line: “THIS BOY’S A FOOL.”

    205. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Socrates MacSporran @ 17:34,

      I still entertain, in my very occasional wildest fantasies (no drink involved!), the Czechoslovak Solution. A phone call could be all it takes… =grin=

    206. Thepnr says:

      Nicola Sturgeon’s response to Johnson’s speech.

    207. Clootie says:

      A press conference used to put pressure on his own MPs and make an election appeal to Brexiteers to stick with the Tories. He wants Nigel to “trust him” to deliver.

      The fun has begun.

    208. Dr Jim says:

      Right on cue STV news interview a pensioner from glasgow who says “We fought a war and nobody died from lack of food or medicine” Naw really? one wonders what war that was

      That pensioner looked to be around my age 70 years so in fact he didn’t fight or suffer in any war his Mum and Dad did and fed him after it, but the main thing is This isn’t a F…..g war this is a Tory choice to make people poor and suffer

      How do Unionists cross the road by themselves, should they be allowed out of the house let alone allowed to vote, these people are just plain idiot stupid morons

    209. Thepnr says:

      Well turned out the expected fireworks today was just a damp squib. Tomorrow and Wednesday will be different for sure.

      I still believe Johnson/Cummings took too big a gamble with their prorogation announcement. Tories like Hammond and other ex-ministers would have given him more time to see if a deal with the EU was possible.

      Maybe Cummings is not quite as smart as he thinks he is? The bad news is we are unlikely to find that out for certain before the 31st Oct. Nothing much we can do about that other than hope that the fireworks we expect are directly underneath Westminster, ready and primed to go off.

    210. Macart says:

      That really was the most Gawdawful speech by Johnson.

      I’m not entirely sure he’s on top of his brief you know.

      Probably the dead giveaway was the ‘chop the legs off’ statement. It appears to have escaped his notice that the UK government has no negotiating position already.

      Who knew? 😎

    211. Footsoldier says:

      Clootie 12:59 Sorry, got that the wrong way round you are right, I meant pursuing a deal. Oops!

    212. jfngw says:

      I honestly thought I could never see a worse orator than Theresa May, I’ve been proved wrong again.

    213. call me dave says:

      Big Auntie suggesting 14th Oct Monday for a GE if things do not go the PM’s way and the Commons and then the Lords change the law.

      That was the date proposed for the Queen’s speech.
      Because he wont ignore the law or resign.

    214. Welsh Sion says:

      Thepnr @6.19 pm

      Sorry to repeat yours, but for some reason, not all my links to Twitter work. (Perhaps others have the same problem.) So, I’m cutting and pasting Nicola Sturgeon’s tweet here:

      Nicola Sturgeon


      Plainly obvious from that statement that Johnson has no plan to get a deal. If MPs blink tomorrow, he will drive the UK off the no deal cliff on 31 October. He must not get away with it.

      6:16 pm · 2 Sep 2019·Twitter for iPad

    215. dadsarmy says:

      Hey there, Little Red Riding Hood,
      You sure are lookin’ good,
      You’re everything a big, bad Wolffe could want…


      I mean baaaaa, baaaaaa, baaaaa…

    216. Bill Hume. says:

      Back on topic ( I know things are moving fast elsewhere, but bear with me).
      Wings party to hoover up the votes for the SNP which would otherwise be discounted in the list votes….sounds good to me.
      However, what is to stop the unionists doing the same?

      Arms around the UK kinda party?

      They have the money to do so.

    217. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Socrates MacSporran

      Couldn’t find Eric but here is Boris and his chums finally conceding defeat.

    218. dadsarmy says:

      @Bill Hume
      The problem for the unionist parties is that they are getting most of their seats on the list, 14 constituency in 2016, but 46 regional seats. They’d end up even more a rump than they are now.

    219. HYUFD says:

      Robert Sutherland On present polls the Tories will still win more Scottish seats than Corbyn Labour

    220. Hamish100 says:


      and less seats than they have at the moment

    221. Thepnr says:

      Two of the “most respected” and senior political broadcasters in the UK are guilty of failing to tell the whole picture when they tweet or produce statements for the BBC and ITV.

      I’m talking of Laura Kuenssburg and Robert Perton, they have talked all day about Boris Johnson calling a General Election if Corbyn and the Rebels (seen them in 76 lol) win the vote tomorrow.

      They have consistently failed to mention that the power to call an election under the Fixed term Parliament act does not lie with the PM but requires a 2/3rds majority in parliament to support it.

      Unless a no deal Brexit has been stopped there is no way I can see the opposition supporting a General Election on a date of the PM’s choosing.

      I know Corbyn is a clown that could rival Bojo but at least he has a cabinet generally against no deal and a majority of his party and members who feel the same. Corbyn would lose leadership of the party if he went ahead with Johnson and supported his call for a General election now.

      Much, much better surely is to get the extension agreed with the EU then have a vote of No Confidence. Tory supporters will be raging if Johnson is forced to seek an election, he says he’ll refuse to request one so will he resign?

      Without Johnson the Brexit party would once again steal a substantial number of votes from the Tories(they are the same people).

      These senior journalists are Tory mouthpieces, you don’t think that they get all these “scoops” for nothing hahaha?

      I would love to see them left with egg on their faces over this.

    222. HYUFD says:

      Col Blimp IV You better hope not, if diehard Remainers succeed in overturning a 52% to 48% UK vote to Leave the EU diehard Unionists would likely follow suit to ensure a 52% to 48% Scottish vote to Leave the UK was also overturned by whatever means necessary

    223. dadsarmy says:

      Just read your post and Jolyon’s twitter “This is so. And I have read his submissions, and they are very powerful indeed.”

      Nothing to see here, pass along please, talk amongst yourselves! Watch the pretty Bojoes, click!

      But as he says: “A note of caution about tomorrow. This case, and its partner case in London, will go to the Supreme Court. What ultimately matters is what happens there.”

      though, not neccessarily, that’s not 100%, I think with my eyes narrowed.

    224. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      dadsarmy @ 19:07,

      The BritNats could tacitly combine in the constituencies. This is what they did with some visible success in 2017 in the UK elections, where the same process applies.

      But these are changed times. As Prof Curtice observes, there’s nothing you can do against a 50%+ majority of votes.

    225. Thepnr says:

      Now another Tory mouthpiece Andrew Neil is at it.

      Pundits concentrating too much on PM saying he doesn’t want an election. Of course he’s saying that. He was never going to call an election tonight. He’s positioning so that he’s seen to be forced into an election if Commons votes to force Brexit delay.

      If Johnson puts forward a motion for a GE and fails to get the required 2/3rds support in parliament then how can he claim that “he’s seen to be forced into an election”.

      Utter shite by the most senior political commentators in the UK.

    226. Dan says:

      Dr Jim says: at 6:26 pm

      How do Unionists cross the road by themselves, should they be allowed out of the house let alone allowed to vote, these people are just plain idiot stupid morons.

      Was talking to a pal last week about this. His parents seem a lost cause with regard to them ever seeing the positive aspects of voting for Indy or SNP.
      I was saying that the society damaging policies of the yoon parties his parents do vote into positions of power are effectively an act of self-harm.
      We agreed that is pretty much the case so on that basis he is gonna try and get them sectioned the day before any future elections. lol

    227. Thepnr says:

      @Welsh Sion

      Re links, not sure if you are knocking off the https:// section of the link? This only needs to be done for youtube videos, all others just use the full link.

    228. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Dr Jim said –

      ” “We fought a war and nobody died from lack of food or medicine” Naw really? one wonders what war that was”

      There were three “Cod Wars” fought between the UK and Iceland between 1958 and 1976.

      They are in the right time band for a 70 year old and as far as I am aware, the only casualty was British Pride, seeing as the Icelanders won 3-0.

    229. Effijy says:

      Beautiful piece of sculduggery Bojo.

      He is kissing a nations favourite Barbara Windsor who has dementia- Ahh
      He is taking a new puppy into No 10. Ahhh
      Looks like next they need to find a little abandoned orphan for him to take in for a full set of Ahhs.
      He is going to pledge putting back some of them policemen that the Tories cut these last 9 years- He is going to put back some of the Education budget he and the Tories cut.
      He is going to pull GP’s from a magic hat, found near his magic money tree
      And build new hospitals. Is that PFI and vast debt to his Tory backers I hear?

      Bojo the Clown, confidence trickster, hater of the Scots and Liar extraordinaire.

    230. galamcennalath says:

      Thepnr says:

      Nicola Sturgeon’s response to Johnson’s speech.

      We see more and more replies to Nicola’s tweets along the lines of, “throw Scotland out of the UK”, like it’s some sort of threat lol.

      And let’s be honest, when we say ‘we need to go’ and English Nationalists increasingly say ‘be gone’, the UK’s expiry date is nigh.

    231. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 19:21,

      BoJo can do it by manufacturing a vote wherein all his supporters vote against him. Not a good look though, to have to pull the plug on yourself like that, but he’s gallus enough.It probably also depends though on his real opponents helping him out!

      The other way is to pass a law in the usual way to (at least temporarily) suspend the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. I believe that has been considered.

    232. frogesque says:

      HYUFD : 7.13

      Difference is, they would be trying to fight it in an independent Scotland. BTW what makes you think it would be that close? Die hard BritNat Unionisim is probably somewhere between 20-25% 30% tops.

      The would also have to persuade the remnant to take us back and the terms would be so draconian few if any would vote for it.

    233. Thepnr says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland

      I don’t think that all Johnson supporters in parliament would give him a 2/3rds majority, there aren’t that many or he’ed have nothing to worry about.

      A 50% +1 vote for Corbyn and the Rebels 🙂 tomorrow suggests that it would also be unlikely that he can find enough support to scrap or change the FTPA unless a Brexit extension has already been achieved.

      If that has been achieved then he wouldn’t need to do anything as he would get his GE no problem. The really daft thing though about A. Neil’s statement is how can you blame your opponents for forcing a GE when you are the one that asks for it when putting a motion to parliament and asking them to support it?

      That’s a puzzle lol.

    234. Col.Blimp IV says:


      I have often Questioned the wisdom/morality or lack thereof regarding the adoption of Unionist Project Fear style tactics, to fight a battle on behalf of the loosing side in an English Civil War.

      I much preferred it when the SNP always wore White Hats and the fork-tongued Unionists wore hats that were as black as their hell-bound souls.

    235. HandandShrimp says:


      You are missing a key point. What are the chances that the SNP are divided on Scottish independence? The whole Brexit mess is solely because the Tories are split down the middle. May had a majority in 2017 she didn’t need an election she needed a united party.

      The dynamics following a Scottish referendum will be quite different even if it is 52 to 48. We won’t have to Morris Dance around a bloody backstop either.

    236. Thepnr says:

      Some snippets from a piece that at least mentions Johnson needs a 2/3rds majority to get a General election.

      Will There Be A Snap Election?

      Downing Street says that Johnson will tomorrow table a motion under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act seeking to call a rapid election, if rebel MPs take control of the Commons business…

      But Johnson is certainly taking a massive risk with his preparations for a general election, not least because failure would mean he would be the shortest lived PM in history (George Canning lasted 119 days, an October 17 election could topple Johnson after 85 days in office)…

      One gamble that looks like it has backfired is the threat of prorogation and the threat of deselection, with David Gauke and around 15 other Tory rebels ready to ‘dig in’ to extend EU membership. The rebels got their act together today with a detailed extension bill that shows they are finally well organised…

      I asked No.10 tonight what would happen if MPs took control of the agenda AND also then voted against a general election. The government official replied: “That’s a very good hypothetical but it’s not one I can speculate on…If there is an Act 3 we will come and tell you in Act 3. I’m not going to tell you in the intro.”

      Quite a bit more in the full article.

    237. HYUFD says:

      Frogesque Even the best poll for Yes only has it ahead 52% to 48% excluding Don’t Knows and of course Scotland could well be blocked from getting independence even if it votes for it exactly as diehard Remainers are trying to clock the UK ever leaving the EU despite the Leave vote

    238. Republicofscotland says:

      Boris Johnson to seek 14th of October GE if rebels succeed say government source.

      Johnson; “I’ll never ask the EU for an extension.”

      I think Nicola has her answers there.

    239. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 19:50,

      Heh, heh.

      The logic vacuum of the Leaver-in-Chief is quite something to behold. And even more perversely, the very senselessness seems only to appeal to his followers. (The folk who shouldn’t be trusted to cross the road by themselves.)

      LBC’s James O’Brien seems to have that well covered:

      (But if Corbyn is only bluffing about wanting a GE, that bluff might just be called soon. We have to wait though to see what tomorrow brings. Lurch-by-lurch, not so much step-by-step.)

    240. HYUFD says:

      Col Blimp IV You may be right there, by siding with English diehard Remainers to overturn a democratic Leave vote rather than just try to keep pushing for Scottish independence the SNP have given diehard Unionists every excuse necessary to follow suit and try and overturn a democratic Scottish vote to become independent from the UK as well

    241. Thepnr says:

      By the way, as far as I understand it correctly a 2/3rds majority in parliament means exactly that, it requires 2/3rds of MP’s to vote positively for a General Election for Johnson to win.

      Abstentions can be ignored so it’s not necessary to vote against it in order to win, the government will need in excess of 400 votes if Johnson does go for a GE.

      I don’t think Labour MP’s or SNP and Lib dems will be rushing to support Johnson unless no deal has been averted first, a final paragraph from my last link.

      There is some method is the apparent madness on Johnson’s part. If he can guarantee a snap election before the Brexit deadline of October 31, he will remove Jeremy Corbyn’s excuse that he can’t sign up to an election with no-deal hanging in the background. But I’m told Labour whips have been inundated with calls from MPs today saying they agree with Tony Blair you can’t trust Johnson not to call an election after a default no-deal.

    242. HYUFD says:

      HandandShrimp You will still likely need a trade deal with your largest market

    243. Cubby says:

      Socrates MacSporran@5.34pm

      I like it. That’s what I call positive thinking. Not an impossible scenario.

    244. Thepnr says:

      This is a peach from one of the rebels lol

    245. scotspatriot says:

      Good try but no cigar, amigo!
      Many people I know are shocked and staggered by the actions of The London Based Fascist Government/ Junta. They were taught to despise these types, especially on Armistice Sunday ! They are now firmly in the YES Camp. The Country they were brought up into, no longer exists !
      It’s goodbye to the Yookay Hyfud !

    246. Tam the Bam. says:


      The way I read it is….



      BRING IT ON!!!!

    247. Thepnr says:

      Finally Peston is obliged to reveal the reality of johnson’s GE.

      Labour and @jeremycorbyn face huge decision on Wednesday whether to vote for a general election if it comes to that. As @EmilyThornberry told shadow cabinet, under Fixed Term Parliament Act Labour can insist @BorisJohnson takes no-deal off the table, that…

      he must accept the Brexit-delay bill as a condition of Labour voting for a general election. In theory dissolution of parliament requires two-thirds majority so Labour can block election. Thornberry told colleagues it would be wrong to agree to fight a general election on…

      Johnson’s terms. But if Johnson guarantees election will be 14 October, before both crucial EU council and Brexit day 31 October, Labour would be accused of cowardice if it refused to fight an election. I am also told that Downing Street has “war-gamed”…

      the scenario of Labour opposing an election and thinks“t here is a way round it” such that election would still happen. So tomorrow’s vote is probably – probably – all about whether there is an election on 14 October. But nothing about this is simple.

      Peston “nothing about this is simple” because the likes of you, who should be informing the public would rather spin Tory lies and omit facts. That’s the problem, it’s you and the rest of the establishment MSM that fail to make things simple.

    248. chicmac says:

      Nana, probably your scariest link yet.

      Should be part of the core curriculum in schools.

    249. Thepnr says:

      This is Kuenssburg on the same topic, outright spin and propoganda on behalf of the Tory party.

      Hard for Corbyn to come back from this and reject election if govt pushes for it later this week – he said tonight, “I will be delighted when the election comes, I’m ready for it, you’re ready for it, we’ll take that message out there and we will win, and defeat this lot.”

      It’s not hard at all, in his speech today Corbyn was clear that he wants an election but that stopping a no deal Brexit was the priority and must come first.

      Signs of desperation in the ranks, this lot are losing it 🙂

    250. Dan says:

      HYUFD says at 8:24 pm

      You will still likely need a trade deal with your largest market

      Disputable UK trade figure aside, that’s somewhat myopic thinking there. I guess our “largest market” is currently just being altruistic and buying stuff from us it doesn’t need.
      Ya ken, non critical luxury stuff like leccy, fuel, and water that our “largest market” can easily do without.
      Of course, the UK leaving the EU market in itself means it’ll be having to work out a new source for the approximate 40% of food it consumes currently being imported from the EU.
      Mmmm, all that lovely US chlorinated chicken and hormone and antibiotic fed beef..
      Striking up trade from further afield than Europe will mean added transport costs and the environmental aspects of fuel burnt to transport it here.
      Do you feel it’s all about the here and now profit and it’s acceptable to ignore longer term aspects such as climate change?

      Did you not vote Remain in the EU ref? If so are you happy to meekly accept that “democratic” result in light of all the underhand activity it took to manipulate that result.

    251. HandandShrimp says:


      That is an issue, the UK seems singularly incapable of negotiating anything.

    252. jfngw says:

      Risky business for Johnson if he deselects sitting MP’s, they may stand as independent Conservatives and take enough votes to lose them the seat.

      If I was a remainer in England I would be using my vote wisely. The only problem is, could you trust the LibDem’s not to do another deal with the Tories, it was a 5p bag last time.

      Hopefully this is all academic for Scotland, we will have made our choice to take our own decisions by then.

    253. HYUFD says:

      Scotspatriot How is it Fascist to implement the Leave vote 17 million British voters voted for? If you ally with English diehard Remainers to block a referendum result you open the door to Scottish diehard Unionists doing the same north of the border

    254. Dr Jim says:

      Glasgow city council set to ask Holyrood to intervene in the creation of laws to reduce or prevent sectarian marches (that’s the OO folks) from taking place, Humza Yusef MSP and Justice Minister says “I would welcome that approach”

      Hallyeffinlooyaah more Yoon thugs off our streets

      So let’s see what James Kelly and his Tory Murdo Fraser OO chums have to say about that (will they dare)

    255. call me dave says:

      The SNP must make this an independence election

    256. RM says:

      Scotland has to start being prepared for independence so it’s an easy transition, it is only a union which like some marriages end in divorce a bit raw at the start but both sides move on and are much happier at the end of it.

    257. jfngw says:


      How does that blocking work when the Scottish Parliament has a majority for independence and the parties in the majority are not split on the subject. Are you suggesting they are going to take over the parliament with a minority of MSP support. The Scottish government are not in the position of the Tories, they have a majority over the unionist parties even if the Green’s abstain.

      Or are you suggesting something more sinister, I hope you are not going all Hisrorywoman on us!

    258. Dr Jim says:

      Faisal Islam reporting that the Tories are going to weaponise the issue of GRA in Scotland making it personal about Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP in the upcoming General Election because they believe that single issue voting women will not support the SNP or Independence and vote Tory or Labour or Liberal Democrat, they don’t care which

    259. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      HYUFD @ 21:27,

      Because it was “won” by deceit, illegal interference, dark money and outright lying. Just like 2014. And now, also just like 2014, in the light of circumstances, the majority has very likely swung the other way. So why should we not have another say?

      After all, if these soi-disant “instruments of the people’s will” are so sure of themselves, why would they possibly fear a repeat? The answer is obvious to all.

      That’s why the “spectre of separation” wasn’t exorcised in 2014. The “winners” perjured themselves so comprehensively to “win” that they discredited the mselves and the result, and lost the right to be respected.

      If you were to buy a car and the wheels fell off after a couple of days, I seriously doubt you would be sitting on your arse telling yourself “well, a purchase is a purchase, and that’s that”.

      Your UK is the walking dead. Best now to save your breath and start getting used to the forthcoming demise.

    260. scotspatriot says:

      HYFUD 9.20 something.
      I have no, I repeat no interest in the UKOK , whatsoever.
      Hope that clears up things for you ?

    261. HYUFD says:

      jfngw The Tories and DUP have a majority in the UK Parliament and of course the SNP lack a majority in the Scottish Parliament without the Greens, so you could easily see a scenario where the Unionist parties combined win a majority in Holyrood in 2021 shortly after an indyref in say late 2020 and then proceed to prevent a narrow Yes vote from being implemented

    262. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Dr Jim @ 21:39,

      Even though these other parties all support it as well?

      (Hmmm, just like “testing in schools” and other such matters.)

      This is what I mean about the “steady accumulation of damage” of any government in power, no matter how good. Eventually enough people acquire a gripe to want to vote it out, and everything else good goes with it. A kind of political law of gravity.

      If it isn’t one distraction, it will be another. Whatever dog whistle causes barking, whichever trial kite is found to fly.

      All of which goes to prove that we ultimately don’t have time on our side. For the public at large, goodwill has an inbuilt expiry date.

    263. Dr Jim says:

      No matter the proofs, no matter the evidence, the Brexiter idiots are still screaming for more proofs and evidence they’re stupid

    264. HYUFD says:

      Robert J Sutherland 55% of Scots voted to Remain in the UK in 2014, only 48% of UK voters voted to Remain in the EU in 2016 but Remainers have done nothing but try and stop the result being implemented.

      If the Brexit vote is overturned by diehard Remainers the idea diehard Unionists in Scotland will not take hard and do everything in their power to overturn a Yes vote in Scotland is laughable!

    265. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      HYUFD @ 22:01,

      I fear you are suffering from the same malady that made some people think the (ex-)Little Corporal would be FM one day. Thankfully she has managed to overcome these futile fantasies; do yourself a favour and copy her example. You will (eventually feel) so much better for it.

      The UK is dead, but like you, it just hasn’t noticed yet.

    266. jfngw says:


      I see what you did there, you add the DUP to the Tories and subtract the Green’s from the SNP. The SNP still have a majority over the unionist parties unless the Green’s vote with the unionists.

      If the Tories and the DUP have a majority then passing this No Deal brexit should be a done deal by now surely.

      The Holyrood election dates are a Westminster constrict, who says an independent Scotland will conform to the Westminster timetable. Once the Scots vote for independence, they are effectively independent as soon as the vote result is announced, that’s what being a sovereign people means, it’s just clearing up the detritus afterwards.

    267. Thepnr says:

      More Brexit tweets that are worth considering.

      After consulting lawyers, I have written to Cabinet Secretary Sir Mark Sedwill demanding that he stop the Govt’s Get Ready for Brexit campaign.

      It’s Tory party propaganda, funded by the taxpayer. It break election purdah rules and the Civil service code.

      I think she’s absolutely right, how can the government get away with spending £100 million in the weeks running up to an election on what would support their no deal Brexit stance? Ridiculous and no doubt illegal, another thing for the Supreme Court then after all the rest. What a state.

    268. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      HYUFD @ 22:04,

      The only thing that’s laughable is your evident belief that there are still fairies at the bottom of the garden.

    269. Col.Blimp IV says:


      We will laugh you all the way to the border.

    270. Welsh Sion says:

      Translation: WS + GT.

      Plaid Cymru calls for unification against Brexit in general election

      2 September 2019 at 17:01 Updated at 18:55

      Plaid Cymru is calling on those parties who oppose leaving the European Union to stand together in a general election, in the absence of a second referendum.

      They propose an amendment in the form of a platform where there would be a policy of cancelling Article 50 and remaining part of the European Union.

      The proposal comes after they tabled an amendment to the Senedd recall debate in Cardiff Bay, following a proroguing of the Westminster Parliament last week.

      A joint proposal between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Labor Government opposes the prorogation of parliament and complements the Assembly’s opposition to Brexit without agreement.

      It also calls on MPs to legislate to prevent Brexit without agreement and to ensure that the public has the final say.


    271. Thepnr says:

      The DUP are bottling it and I doubt they’re the only ones.

      Not the time for a general election, says DUP leader Arlene Foster

    272. chicmac says:

      @Robert J.

      ” the majority has very likely swung the other way. So why should we not have another say?”

      It certainly has, for more than 2 years, since July 2017.

      Why this is never mentioned anywhere is a bit spooky.

    273. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert J Sutherland 10:01pm

      The only problem with weaponising the GRA issue is that they’re banking on women in Scotland being motivated only by this single issue and voting against their own country’s Independence over it, while I think there might be some that would I don’t believe the majority of women in Scotland will be foolish enough to fall for any propaganda of any kind next time round leaving the status quo as is when in an Independent Scotland they would have the opportunity to vote to make a difference to decisions made here and not depend on London promises that never transpire

      Plus of course many women wouldn’t know what GRA even is if it came free with a box of Corn Flakes, pensioner women don’t care and the young women have turned off from the telly and newspapers yonks ago and will tend to vote what their pals vote, it’s only an issue with the group that it’s an issue with, and depending on how big that group is that group will probably be smart enough to decide for themselves whether they’re being gamed or not

      It’ll depend how the Tories try to frame it, maybe they’ll employ Kezia, y’know a neutral(sarcasm) now that wouldn’t surprise me

    274. Thepnr says:

      Getting hot around Downing Street, did you see the fear on Johnson’s face when he gave that pathetic speech outside No 10.

      It was not anywhere near the holding in the laugh while grinning that he normally gives on TV. He’s not got the balls to do this, May had bigger balls but it’s arguable who will turn out when this is all done and dusted who was the most incompetent.

      Once he gets some opposition right in his face, he’ll fold like the cowardly Bullingdon Boy he proved to be as Foreign Secretary.

    275. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Welsh Sion

      If I had a spoof Labour HQ e-mail account, I would send a directive to the Scottish Branch from Corbyn, telling them to fall into line

    276. Dr Jim says:

      The desperation from England tonight is so bad it’s tangible as the keyboard rattlers invade Scotland’s internet space once again, as they do every time Scotland speaks in an effort to dissuade Scotland from deciding on its own future or indeed just threatening Scots with all forms of extinction and death if they dare to to enact their own will

      We are your masters and have been for 311 years and you will obey us or we will do something or make something bad happen to you because we love you and your hills and your mountains and your shortbread and Edinburgh festival, but if you refuse to remain our slaves we will starve you like we did to Ireland, Ooops sorry we didn’t do that they eh starved themselves, and we didn’t kill any of you Scots either that was all a Bobby Ewing dream that wasn’t real

      Please stay or we’ll kill you

    277. HYUFD says:

      jfngw Nope, if the Scots change their mind and elect a Unionist majority in the next Holyrood election even if they have voted for independence it can swiftly be reversed if diehard Remainers set a precedent in the UK by reversing Brexit diehard Unionists will follow suit in Scotland

    278. HYUFD says:

      Welsh Sion Wales voted 52.53% Leave, so Plaid clearly only backs Welsh independence when it agrees with Welsh voters, when it disagrees then the majority of Welsh voters can go hang!

    279. Thepnr says:

      Oh shit, has Johnson bitten off more than he can chew? The Runnymede and Weybridge Conservatives seem to think so.

      They’ve put out a statement an hour ago saying Philip Hammond has been reselected by them and that they really love him LOL

    280. call me dave says:

      Radio 5 expert / pundit.

      How can 26 countries dictate the terms & conditions to the UK without their say, forcing the UK to accept…etc etc.

      Irony meter in Scotland off the scale. 🙂

    281. jfngw says:


      You either don’t read the comments or don’t understand them, you can’t overturn the referendum unless you are in government and that requires an election, which is not guaranteed.

      If a party that wants rejoin the union wins they could do that anytime by winning an election even after independence. Going by history this would seem unlikely.

      Plus the EU referendum was advisory, a vote in Scotland by the sovereign people would effectively be binding.

    282. call me dave says:


      Excellent! Boris went rogue when May was PM.
      He’s a conniving hypocrite with a granny to sell.

    283. Dr Jim says:

      @Thepnr 10:28pm

      You’re dead right, that’s why he doesn’t want to talk to the EU because they’re all too smart for him and it shows up his lack of political skill, and of course the private education that teaches you how to rule doesn’t teach how to negotiate or appreciate other cutures without believing them to be inferior to the imaginary great British superiority

      In short Boris is an Arse and a fake Arse and that’s why Scots have found him out, we don’t like Aresholes, we boot them

    284. jfngw says:

      Johnson does not want the sword of Damocles over his head, I always thought there was something Rocky about him.

      He seems himself as Churchillian in stature, I see a cut price Brian Blessed.

    285. Elmac says:

      I am tired of scrolling past the HIYAFUD mince and the ill advised responses to him. He is polluting this blog – which of course has always been his intention.

    286. jfngw says:

      Wow! Didn’t realise that Rocky Horror clip also has a Ross Thomson caricature.

    287. chicmac says:


      He is more like those Churchill fought against, IMO.

    288. Benhope says:

      Thank you naina tal for your reply at 10.38 am.

      Though I have been reading Wings since the beginning, I thought that if there was not a (read the rest of this article ) line to click on it was not open for comment.

      What gems of wisdom and brilliant insights have I missed ?

    289. jfngw says:


      Of course he is, we realise that. I think many are just amusing themselves, wiling away a Monday night by bating him.

    290. Dr Jim says:

      I mentioned earlier about the amount of war movies flooding the telly every day, well one of todays movies was about Odette Churchill

      I cried,….

      because I’m f…..g sick of turning the telly on trying to escape this shit

      Not personal about the woman herself, just the endless British propaganda day after day after day

    291. call me dave says:

      Prof Curtis still awake on Radio 5 pondering whether or not Jeremy will dare use his ‘once in a lifetime opportunity’ to go for a GE, taking into account his party’s poll rating.

    292. robertknight says:

      Demented Ulster Puritans very much against a GE for fear or losing their existing leverage.

    293. Dr Jim says:


      He’s taking a night off from trolling the FM he’ll be back on her twitter tomorrow

    294. mike cassidy says:

      The article isn’t that interesting

      But I did like this btl.

      “My perception as a remainer in SW England is that Scotland is set fair to break out of this loveless union with England and make its own way in the world. I’m a strong supporter of the union, but the way the English Tories have been treating the whole country, they thoroughly deserve what’s coming to them. Short of a full-blown civil war and head lopping, such as we had in the C17th, they face wipe out in Scotland at the very least”

    295. Thepnr says:

      The state of the UK’s media is utterly disgusting. It started a massive downward slide when the Tories regained power in 2010 and has gotten worse ever since.

      On days like this I watch “news” every waking minute, the shite that those most well known political correspondents come away with is astonishing.

      Even now on Newsnight they are trying to pretend that Corbyn was always going to accept a challenge of a General Election. Utter bullshit, Corbyn would be sacked as well no matter what McCluskey thinks.

      If I was the opposition I’d do what Cummings does and send different messages all over the place. Corbyn says No, Sturgeon says Yes, Swinson is undecided LOL.

      I’d be putting out different messages all over the place LOL

    296. jfngw says:

      @DR Jim

      Yes I think BBC Countryfile had a celebration of the start of the war on Sunday, I turned it off so missed the celebration.

    297. HYUFD says:

      jfngw If Unionist parties won a Holyrood majority they could of course reverse an independence vote and decide to stay in the UK even after a previous narrow Yes vote. Given no poll has Yes currently doing any better than the 52% Leave got in 2016 (and that excludes undecideds) that would be a strong possibility given the diehard Remainer example in England.

      If the ‘sovereign people of Scotland’ decided to change their minds and stay in the UK their original decision would not be binding no, just as if Remain parties won a majority at the next UK general election

    298. Boudicca says:

      De Piffle gets a puppy so that he can say, the dog ate my speech/manifesto/negotiation (delete at will).

    299. Dr Jim says:

      If Unionist parties won a Holyrood majority they could of course reverse an Independence vote

      Eh no they couldn’t because once Scotland is Independent there can be no Unionist parties in Holyrood because in order to be a MSP in Holyrood political parties will have to be registered in Scotland as Scottish parties and pledge allegiance to the Scottish people as opposed to HM the Queen

      The end of the Union means the end of Unionist parties
      The SNP wouldn’t be allowed in the HOC once Scotland is Independent….no Union

    300. Cubby says:

      Alberto Costa Scots Tory MP for a Leicester seat says that he has been given assurances by his PM and will now not vote against the government.

      Really. Do Lying Britnat Tories believe the ultimate lying English Nationalist Tory is telling the truth.

      You could not make this stuff up. The UK alternates from appearing as an international laughing stock to a worrying anti democratic extreme right wing semi fascist group of criminals.

    301. Thepnr says:

      I liked this tonight from, just the last four paragraphs, but one thing is clear Johnson who he always refers to as “the Oaf” is not on his Xmas card list. I doubt very much if any UK journalists are either, which isn’t too surprising 🙂

      So, we want a deal – which we are signalling by demanding changes to the Withdrawal Agreement which are politically impossible for the EU to concede and which are not a procedural possibility within the timescale set. And, if we don’t get our way, we are prepared to trash our economy – the so-called “Blazing Saddles” gambit.

      This path is so far beyond delusional that it takes us to the fringes of madness. This is not the action of a mature adult, and not one we should be getting from a man who occupies the post of UK prime minister. It is not in any way, shape or form, a proposition which lies within the real world. By what possible measure can Johnson be “encouraged by the progress we are making”?

      But it is there that the madness becomes collective. So painfully obvious is it to any sentient being that the man is talking rubbish that the entire press corps should be rising up as one to say so. Yet, while we get the now-ritual denouncements from Simon Coveney in the Irish Times, the UK media has looked madness in the face, nodded its collective head and moved on without comment.

      We are no longer looking at political events here. Distorted news values are a disease – where the soap-opera is an all-absorbing obsession. Journos have become drama addicts and we don’t get news from them any more – only pathology.

      Good picture of Johnson to open the article too 🙂

    302. Heart of Galloway says:

      Anent my post @ 5.53pm. Corbyn and McDonnell in full GE mode tonight. Firsti Minister says “bring it on”.

      Ian Blackford in tonight’s C4 debate hints a GE is likely and again categorically states that “Scotland will not be dragged out if the EU against our will.”

      The implications of this are clear: namely that if BoJo loses the vote in parliament tomorrow to the “rebel alliance”, SNP and Labour MPs will be instructed to vote for a snap GE.

      That, combined with the addition of almost all the Conservative parliamentary party makes it a stick on in my book that the 2/3 majority required to set aside the Fixed Term Parliaments Act will be met.

      And this time I do not believe the SNP manifesto will be the anodyne offering of 2017.

      Instead, to the joy of those who believed the party made a serious mis-step by being too timid two years ago, independence, IndyRef2 and Scottish EU membership will be placed front and centre as the only alternative to a no-deal Brexit.

      Such is the seriousness of the hour that another question arises: will a deal will be sought with the Greens to sit this one out in order to maximise the SNP’s chances of taking down as many British nationalist MPs as possible?

      Perhaps, but one thing is for sure – the impact of such a ‘Claim of Right’ manifesto on activists’ morale will be a sight to behold.

      And resolution to win will be all the stronger for another reason. Johnson’s preferred date is Monday, October 14 – smack band in the middle of the SNP’s annual conference.

      A case of deliberate targeting? Or one of those fateful coincidences?

    303. Dr Jim says:

      Referendums in Scotland are binding on the Scottish parliament because the people of Scotland are sovereign not the parliament, so a referendum is in Scotland an instruction to parliament whereas a referendum in England is advisory not an instruction as the people of England have no sovereignty

      The English monarchy ceded its authority to the parliament of England not the people of England in order to maintain ultimate power over the people

      That’s why the USA adopted the declaration of Arbroath as the basis of its constitution, for the people by the people
      in order to promote the idea of the freedom of the people

      Y’know as in the land of the free

    304. Thepnr says:

      For those that might not have seen it before on Wings, here’s “the so-called “Blazing Saddles” gambit” referred to above.

    305. Marcia says:

      A lot of Scottish Tory MP’s will not be looking forward to the coming election providing they are allowed to stand. I hear that some Tories in Angus want to deselected their hopeless MP.

    306. Liz g says:

      You seem to forget that Scotland…

      Doesn’t owe the EU any money

      Has nae obligations or impediments with the Good Friday Agreement.

      And has a government quite comfortable with EU Citizens rights..

      So our entry in to the single market which will take care of our”Trade Arrangements ” with any of our market’s should be swift and straightforward.
      Especially since we won’t be depending on Westminster to negotiate it for us!!
      You must also be aware that should Westminster damage The Good Friday Agreement it is likely to draw sanctions down upon it’s self and it’s time to be choosy will have passed!

      As to a reunification campaign!
      We’ve always known that was almost a certainty.
      But we also know fine well a Written Constitution is what will set the bar for it, should any future Holyrood Government be minded to try!
      Holyrood will no have the power to sign Scotland up to anything like that ever again.I
      We,the people of Scotland would not only control and know the terms of any new Treaty, Westminster has very little to attract us into one anymore!
      Do you imagine we would sign up to a Treaty that’s anything like the current one?
      That would be something we Scots would,how should I put it??
      “Have to think very carefully about”
      Pardon the pun but, ma cat was purring as I typed 🙂

    307. jfngw says:

      I see your reasoning, I think John Cleese spells it out better here. Which peg is it?

    308. Cubby says:

      Dr Jim@11.25pm

      HYFUD just comes on and repeats the same crap time after time even though his points are always shown to be the rubbish they are. The guy is not interested in debating or indeed learning. He is a troll spreading lies and misinformation. He is a Tory who voted for Johnson and is proud of it. The only thing that marks him out as different is that he must be only Tory member not over 75 years of age.

      Pretty sure I made the same point to him when he first turned up on Wings that no British or English parties will be allowed in an independent Scottish parliament. Personally, I don’t think there should be any London controlled parties in the devolved parliament at present.

    309. North chiel says:

      “ “ Heart of Galloway@ 1134 pm “ , not so fast sir, reports late tonight that Labour will not vote for GE until no deal Brexit is “ outlawed” by HOC . Saving “ the precious precious union” is still very much “ in play” as far as the Westminster establishment is concerned .( Despite the pretence that this is “ all about Brexit” re MSM / state propaganda outlets)

    310. Dr Jim says:


      Oh I know who he is and where he comes from and what he stands for and how he’s a failed candidate for his own party

      He does fancy our First Minister though, never off her Twitter

    311. Legerwood says:

      Dr Jim says:
      2 September, 2019 at 10:26 pm
      @Robert J Sutherland 10:01pm

      Perhaps you, and quite a few others, should read this then stick it under the noses of anyone, anyone, who tries to ‘weaponise’ the GRA issue.

      It can only be ‘weaponised’ if people are in the dark about what the actual situation is re the SG and GRA

    312. Thepnr says:

      @Dr Jim

      Only failed 3 times though to be fair. Has a good few to go before he can match Murdo, what is it, 7 times now without winning?

    313. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim No as if the Scottish people decide to elect a Unionist majority to stay in the UK or reverse an independence vote then allegiance to the Scottish people or not an independence vote could be reverse if Scots changed their minds

    314. Thepnr says:

      Waves at Legerwood 🙂

    315. Daisy Walker says:

      The Fixed Term Parliament Act specifically lays out, that the MINIMUM amount of time you can call a GE in is 25 working days, IN ADDITION to 14 days for setting up the admin. This is Statutory Law – they can’t just alter it cause they want to.

      Work back from 14/10/19 – 25 working days takes you to 9th September – and does not include the 14 days set up time (also statutory).

      If a GE is called tomorrow, the earliest it can be held is 21/10/19.

      Methinks PM BJ’s earlier speech was even more full of BS than usual.

      It would be quite nice if our top paid reporters would look shit like this up now and again and call them on it.

      The Fixed Term Act is on the internet if anyone wants to double check it – have to admit I only skim read it looking for the above specifics. I may be out by a day or 2 but not much I suspect.

    316. manandboy says:

      In the midst of Brexit turmoil and Union angst in England :

      Let’s imagine that the essence of Brexit is ‘taking back control’, and in so doing, restoring the essential Independence of England and with it the right to make all governance decisions in the Westminster Parliament.

      How does all that sit then, with a sense of English Colonial righteousness about denying the sovereign people of Scotland’s right to their independence and matching right to self-determination through self-government?

      Ps. The Treaty of Union 1707, was and still is, a treaty between two equal partners. Sadly, it was a marriage without good faith, as abuse began to set in almost from the start, to continue to this day with an endless stream of lies in the form of propaganda, notably to the effect that Scotland is simply too poor, too weak and too stupid, to stand on its own two feet, without the kindness and generosity of the English Ruling Class.

      This same propaganda was and is applied, with minor variations, to the northern counties and peoples of England.

      But the Scots have long since learned, and more recently, the more so, the truth about Westminster’s cunning lies, and now know that Scotland has been England’s Cash Cow for long and weary, but especially in the modern age, with the discovery of the vast reserves of oil and gas in Scottish waters first in the North Sea, and, more recently, west of Shetland and the Atlantic Margins.

      The days of English exploitation and colonial plundering of Scotland’s natural resources are drawing to a close. This is what Boris Johnson and the English Establishment are deeply afraid of. That and the forthcoming EU laws on financial transparency in taxation in general, and in offshore tax havens in particular. Not forgetting pensions, currently among the very lowest in Europe, thanks to the Establishment’s neo-liberal appetites.

      Breaking up is sometimes difficult in marriage, but in the political marriage known as the United Kingdom, the forthcoming divorce will not only be the right decision for Scotland, it will also be the just one.

      The time for abuse and never-ending lying will soon be at an end. For the many good people of England, this will be sad, but understandable in the light of the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. For those who have benefitted most from the proceeds of colonial plunder from Scotland, there will no doubt be pious denial, and then widespread weeping and grinding of entitled teeth.

    317. Daisy Walker says:

      From what I can see, given the Fixed Term Parliament Act, the very last chance they have to legally call a GE BEFORE 31/10/19 BREXIT DAY, is 13/9/19.

      A Referendum requires a minimum of 28 days, (the legislation is silent as to whether they are ‘working’ days) with the addition of 14 days set up time.

    318. Thepnr says:

      Kuenssberg finally backtracks from everything else she has said today, including on the Six O’Clock news and the Ten O’Clock news to admit that there might NOT be an election after all.

      Guess what? She has finally realised that just because you ask doesn’t mean you get and why should Labour give anything to Johnson.

      By end of tmrw we might be in position where Tories say they don’t want an election, but push for one, and Labour says they do want an election, but are trying to block it – another crazy day beckons – more in the morning

      Kuenssberg really wants to believe that the crap she is fed by Cummings or a lackey must be right and she will do her damnedest to make it right. What a useless journalist when all you are is a mouthpiece for a corrupt government.

      Maybe though Cummings has this all worked out, I read earlier that they’d “gamed” it and have a plan. Well, Cummings might learn too that the game doesn’t always go to plan.

      As Marcia said earlier tonight. Events dear boy, events.

    319. Tam the Bam. says:

      Ian Blackford was oustandingthis evening on CH4

    320. Hamish100 says:

      Has someone given hyfuud his medicine yet?

    321. Daisy Walker says:

      I’m just going to repeat this, because it is being seriously overlooked by all the main media, and the SNP (who may well be doing it deliberately), but for all the Yessers, it is important and worth getting into your personal calander.

      The Fixed Term Parliament Act made it Statutory that the earliest a GE could be called is 25 working days + 14 days set up time.

      All I can see on the media is people going on about BJ requiring a 2/3’s vote to call a GE and nothing about this timing.

      If he wins a 2/3 vote, the very earliest he can call a GE now (by my workings) is 21/10/19 – NOT 14/10/19. And that’s is assuming the Proroguing gets cancelled.

    322. Daisy Walker says:

      Things we know.

      England is bankrupt – it cannot afford to lose Scotland in any shape or form – Scotland is the Cash Cow.

      Recent polling shows that the SNP look set to take 16/17 seats at a GE = 51/52 out of 59.

      The British Establishment (Red and Blue) have 100’s of years of asset stripped wealth locked away in Tax Havens and now under serious threat by EU Tax Haven Legislation.

      No Deal Brexit = Save the Tax Havens = Chaos in the Street = State of Emergency = Close Down Holyrood and shut up the whinging Jocks.

      Highly unlikely there is going to be a GE before Brexit Day.

    323. Cubby says:

      Scotland Tonight
      Paul Sweeney Scottish Britnat Labour MP states categorically that British Labour will go for a General election before the end of October.

      Two English (Tony Lloyd and Mary Creach ) Labour MPs state categorically that British Labour will NOT go for a General Election until after the end of October. We are not falling for the Tory trap.

      Looks like British Labour is not bothering to keep the Scottish branch up to speed. Poor Sweeney falling for the Tory trap. Britnat Labour – confusion reigns.

    324. Thepnr says:

      @Daisy Walker

      I haven’t checked t=your reference for the info but I know I’ve read this so you’ll have to rely on my memory. I agree with the 25 working days after approval from the Queen but if my memory hasn’t failed me that admin period could be as short as a week.

      Making it a total of 6 weeks from parliament agreeing to call an election and one being held. Too late now for me to confirm by looking up where I got that info from but maybe tomorrow. I also would be very surprised if such a basic error failed to be spotted not by journalists but by those in the know they claim have provided the information from No 10.

    325. HYUFD says:

      Daisy Walker England on its own would be the 7th largest economy in the world

    326. Thepnr says:


      Mine is bigger than yours!

      My dad can beat your dad!

      Get Ready For Brexit. Yah!

      Hahaha What a dick you are, give it a rest, go back to Political Betting and aim for 100,000 posts before Brexit.

    327. Daisy Walker says:

      @ HYUFD re ‘England on its own would be the 7th largest economy in the world’.

      That’s lovely. Look forward to it.

    328. chicmac says:


      Strange isn’t it, that China, now the second largest economy, used to be the music hall joke about laundering?

    329. Cubby says:

      Scotland Tonight

      Nicola Sturgeon interview by Colin McKay. She repeated that there will be an independence referendum and stated that her preference is for that to take place later next year.

      Why should she confirm exactly when it will happen? She did not rule out it happening earlier. Seems sensible to me.

      Asked if Alex Salmond case has any bearing on the timing she said no.

    330. Thepnr says:


      This is the real for the British Nationalist Brexiteers. They hark back to a time of black and white tales of glory on the big screen. The stories of how their door was always open and they never had to lock it.

      Yes. yes, it was hard but we plucky Brits just stuck our chins out and got on with it eh eh eh. Oh it was a shame that wee Johnny took one in the head, that was sad. When that primary school took a bomb was unfortunate. We stuck with it though.

      How pathetic is that? That though is the strength of the argument for leaving the EU. I’m making a bold prediction and that is Boris doesn’t have the balls to take the UK out of the EU without a deal.

      That doesn’t mean that it might not yet happen as it is still the most likely outcome, I just believe, now that he’s PM and being briefed on the reality of leaving he fears it.

      He was heckled today when given his speech and his bottle went, his confidence obliterated and it was written all over his face. He couldn’t wait to get back into the safety of No 10.

      That can’t have failed to be noticed, not just by us and the demonstrators but by the EU negotiators as well. His goose is cooked and I’m putting on the roast tatties with some gravy and getting ready for a dinner LOL.

      Got a feeling Scotland will be celebrating in the not too distant future. We have a better future ahead of us than Boris and his cronies, that’s for sure 🙂

    331. Dr Jim says:

      According to Jim Rodgers financier and Bloomberg commentator
      England’s position as fifth largest economy is debatable and without Scotland’s oil and assets would drop to around 12th place in world economies

      This is because the maritme border between Scotland and England would return to its original position and the oil basin in the south of the north sea which is currently classed as English GDP would return to the control of Scotland also

      On day one of Independence Scotland would wipe out any so called deficit arrangement it had with the UK to a position of surplus because it would also no longer be responsible for the upkeep and retention of UK nuclear weapons or the around £3.7billion removed from its budget to finance UK defence expenditure which is almost twice as much as Israel spends on its defence because the Scottish government has no such policies at present regarding a defence posture of that magnitude

    332. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Legerwood @ 23:56,

      With the kind of data-harvested dirty politics we have now, the truth of the matter isn’t really the issue, it’s exploitation and magnification of peoples’ fears, whatever they currently are, or can be made to be. (And the more irrational the better.) You end up spending all your time and energy discussing a deliberately-contrived diversion instead of promoting the primary issue you wish to pursue. That’s not accidental.

      Economics is ideal because you can confuse and befuddle people with reams of concrete-seeming numbers. The media just love to home in on that one. But emotive issues can also ring bells.

      The best strategy is not to engage at all, by having a primary message strong enough to swamp any and all attempts at distraction. Be on the front foot, not on the back.

    333. Cubby says:

      Jeremy Corbyn on his visit to Scotland very kindly told us that he is mightily impressed by the famous Scottish architect Willie Rennie McIntosh. LOL

    334. HYUFD says:

      Dr Jim England would of course lay claim to North Sea oil deposits in its waters (though even 12th largest economy would see it comfortably still a member of the G20 Scot land would have to leave).

      Of course if Scotland had all that oil but no nuclear weapons there would be little to stop Putin marching in if he ever felt like it

    335. HYUFD says:

      Thepnr Boris has 17 million Leave voters behind him, a few hundred diehard Remainer protestors in Whitehall is no match for them

    336. Thepnr says:


      I’m concerned that Corbyn might not be in charge of his brief.

      Whatever he had in the past that made him electable to so many seems to be missing now, I think he might have lost it.

    337. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert j.Sutherland 1:26am

      The general population don’t tend to care that much about much unless the media tell them they’re supposed to be outraged about whatever it is they tell them and if it’ll cost them, everything else is just political waffle they just switch off to

      It seems what Faisal Islam is saying is the Tories are actually going to campaign in the way they used the pickpocket style campaign against Alex Salmond then Nicola Sturgeon in previous General Elections

      No doubt if they do the Scottish media will run and run with it because they’ll be instructed to, whether in this case it’ll be effective remains to be seen because in order to make the public understand what they want them to understand they’ll have to produce some very clever punchy imagery and snappy headlines or it’ll be doomed to failure, because it’s not money, it’s not health, well sort of not health, it’s complex, and people don’t like complex they like you won’t get a blood transfusion story, or all pensioners will die story, and of course while the position is not resolved on the story they’re forced to make a *this bad thing might happen story* and that’s more difficult to sell

    338. Cubby says:

      HYFUD posts are laughable. Made the mistake of reading that one about Scotland leaving the G20. Scotland is not in the G20 to leave in the first place. I would normally think this person is a total diddy but I know otherwise. The FUD is just here to troll and mislead the gullible.

      Note to myself – must not read the FUDs posts.

    339. Dr Jim says:

      International law says England would have no legal rights to Scottish waters assets or minerals post Independence

      Eh and what’s yer problem with Mr Putin his fishing boats crews regularly drink in our Islands pubs and I’m quite sure there will be some Russian offspring growing up quite happily in our Islands

      Away and learn something and try at least to stop hating everybody

    340. Thepnr says:


      It’s late, I know you’ve shelves to stack and kindly suggest putting the cork back in the bottle and grabbing 6 hours if you still can.

      I’m only thinking of you, you understand. I’d hate to see your promotion prospects being affected if you’re heading into work hungover because you spend too much time on Wings.

      That wouldn’t do. Believe me, we will mange perfectly fine without you giving Scotland your opinion on how poor Scotland would be without England’s beneficence and how an ungracious lot we are.

      Your own country and party needs you a lot more now than we ever will and that’s plain to see, surely even for you.

    341. Cubby says:

      Every time I go up to Fife to play golf and I look out to sea it reminds me how much I detest the UK. To think that the UK claims the sea I am looking out on from St Andrews has been idesignated as part English waters. Tony Blair did this.

      That’s all you need to see how corrupt the UK is. If we are one country then why was there any need to change the sea boundaries. UK robbers.

    342. Dr Jim says:

      Stephen Gethins is still up and working and all the wee trolls are going mental, how dare Scotland interfere in the UKs business, that’s the height of the intellect with them

      Scotland’s just a holiday park up north to them, and the people like zoo animals to be sneered at and derided, the same way they look at the Irish the Welsh and everybody else who isn’t them

      Remind you of a particular group of football supporters?

      Well us Scottish Apes are answering back now *so get your hands of us you filthy Unionists*

      See what I did there

    343. Cubby says:


      I think Corbyn is getting tired. Hard work at his age. But as you know I generally have no sympathy for any Labour politicians due to the way they have deceived and abused Scotland for so so long.

      You have been on fire recently with your posts but I still think a no deal will happen and if the SNP get the timing right we will be finally shot of Britnat labour and all the other British parties. Yippee.

    344. Thepnr says:


      It’s always been about the timing. We’ll only get one more choice of the timing to go for it in my lifetime and I’d prefer to get that choice right.

      Nothing to be gained by coming second again, lets not waste it because of impatience and allowing the Unionists to wind us up.

    345. Dr Jim says:


      Because that oil you’re looking at from St Andrews isn’t *British*GDP it’s English GDP, that’s why they moved the border, but it will be ours again, International law says so and so will our naval armed vessels when they’re built in our shipyards to protect and defend our waters, and England will do nothing because they would be breaking International law if they did and the world and the EU would sanction them for it, and trade will be more important to a lone England than conflict with its neighbours

      Much though our wee resident Tory would like it to be different the shoe will soon be on the other foot, Scotland’s

    346. Liz g says:

      HYUFUD @ 12.07
      No it wouldn’t….
      You failed to take account of.
      When, the “Interim Constitution” would take legal effect over Holyrood …
      It doesn’t have to wait for actual Independence Day as our legal system is already separate.
      Therefore the 2021 Holyrood elections could return MSPs bound by it!!
      And if that Constitution says Holyrood cannot ‘re activate” the 1707 Treaty then reunification just got a good deal more complicated than what a bunch of Unionist MSPs could promise!!
      The whole point of a Constitution is to curb those sort of power’s.
      It is quite normal to have many,many,many hoops to jump through,in order to change a written Constitution.
      It’s no very likely that Scots would leave that kind of power with Holyrood ever again.
      But do take heart… without the 1707 Treaty it becomes possible for England to write one too!
      Once you have nae other legal system to have a care for as the foundation of yer Parliament you too can gain the protection of stable government and from unstable government.
      They’d know their limitations,they Mibbi wouldn’t like it but they’d know it!!
      Your Country really can take control into its Parliament and finally become our equal as a Sovereign People!

    347. RM says:

      Watching the news since early on, not a mention of Scotland,how can we get more say, you’d think the Scottish law system would have an answer.

    348. skintybroko says:

      LBJ (see Wee ginger dug) will delay an election until after 31st October, call a state of emergency, take all powers to Westminster and will shut down the devolved parliaments – that appears to me where this is all going to end up!

    349. Colin Alexander says:

      WE ARE SOVEREIGN – we are not bound by the “sovereignty” of UK Parliament if we decide we are not bound by it.

      Repeatedly we have had UK Colonial parties assert their sovereignty over the people of Scotland, eg THEY will decide if, or when, Scotland can have an indyref.

      If there is a General Election, the SNP MUST assert Scotland’s sovereignty. But sovereignty that cannot be exercised is useless.

      The SNP MUST also seek a mandate to facilitate how Scotland’s people’s sovereignty can be effectively exercised, eg declare Holyrood and direct referendums as the means by which Scotland’s sovereignty is exercised.

      ( Unless the SNP seek a mandate to declare the Union dissolved with immediate effect – which is highly unlikely).

    350. Hamish100 says:

      Of course if Scotland had all that oil but no nuclear weapons there would be little to stop Putin marching in if he ever felt like it

      What an idiot you are. Putin wouldn’t walk into the North Sea — its full of water– like you brain it would appear. Lol

      Remember the great english navy sent a minesweeper to face the Ruskies on our northern coast, took 2 days to get there from Portsmouth!

      Ps if we had all that oil? Are you saying it’s englands already. The colonialists mindset

    351. Abulhaq says:

      Whatever happens in the next 24hrs it will all be about England. How prepared are Scots to push to the limits? Unless determined to think beyond the conventional political norms Scotland will continue to be England’s ’bitch’.
      England’s internal politics are for the English to resolve. This is an alien fight.
      Scottish nationalism, assuming the SNP represents the interests of that cause, has nothing to offer.
      Let them tear each other apart. Let them engage in ‘civil war’.
      England’s difficulty, Scotland’s opportunity.Just seize it,
      before we all get so bored with this politicians’ confected mess we are past caring.
      Believe Bahamas is nice this time of year.

    352. Graeme says:

      “Of course if Scotland had all that oil but no nuclear weapons there would be little to stop Putin marching in if he ever felt like it”

      The Fudster’s on form today folks 🙂

    353. manandboy says:


      Boris Johnson, outside No10 yesterday : “If there is one thing that can hold us back in these talks it is the sense in Brussels that MPs may find some way to cancel the referendum. Or that tomorrow MPs will vote – with Jeremy Corbyn – for yet another pointless delay. I don’t think they will. I hope that they won’t. But if they do they will plainly chop the legs out from under the UK position and make any further negotiation absolutely impossible,” he said.

    354. galamcennalath says:

      A webby thought. In 2006 the architect of Tesco’s Clubcard, Clive Humby said, “Data is the new oil. It’s valuable, but if unrefined it cannot really be used. It has to be changed into gas, plastic, chemicals, etc. to create a valuable entity that drives profitable activity; so must data be broken down, analyzed for it to have value.”

      A lot has happened with your personal data since 2006.

      Is data more valuable to the global economy than oil, now?

    355. galamcennalath says:

      manandboy says:


      I think you are correct. They are trained, indoctrinated, to display confidence far in excess of their knowledge or competence. They make decisions, and stick by them, based on their learned intuition. It served an Empire well. In the modern world they are dangerously naive.

    356. hackalumpoff says:

      See updated Nana’s links here:

    357. manandboy says:

      A reminder, just in case…

      Bloomberg describes “This week is shaping up to be one of the most significant in recent British political history. It will dictate the outcome of the U.K.’s departure from the European Union, could prompt a general election, will probably see the upending of Britain’s unwritten constitution, may spell the end of careers, and will likely shape the U.K. for decades to come.

    358. Thepnr says:


      Still stirring the porridge and working to your own agenda eh.

    359. Thepnr says:

      Never thought I’d respect Philip Hammond but anybody that could threaten Johnson with court action gets my support.

      Short video from this mornings radio 4 today program.

    360. Welsh Sion says:

      Scottish comedian standing up for Wales in Merthyr Tydfil

      3 September 2019 at 07:54

      Hardeep Singh Kohli, the Scottish comedian and television presenter, will present three Welsh comedians at a comedy gig after the AUOB March for Independence in Merthyr Tydfil on Saturday (September 7).

      Performing at the English language gig at Theatr Soar at 5 o’clock are Welsh speakers Dan Thomas, Steffan Alun and Eleri Morgan, with Hardeep Singh Kohli as MC.

      His latest appearance in Wales comes just weeks after he addressed a crowd of 8,000 at a rally on the Maes at the end of the 2nd AUOB/Yes Cymru March for Independence along the streets of Caernarfon.

      He is a passionate campaigner for Scottish independence, and says he is a friend of the campaign in Wales.

      “I’m from Glasgow but when I’m in Wales, I feel like a Welshman,” he told the crowd.

      “People have come to thank me for coming to this country, but that’s wrong.

      “Thank you for asking me to come to this wonderful nation.

      “The main reason I’m here is because I can’t sleep thinking about the injustices against the Welsh.

      “No other country in the world has more castles than Wales. Why? They needed to be built to keep you down.

      “No other country has suffered as many attacks on its language as the London governments have attacked the Welsh language but yet, it is still spoken.”

      “The climate is perfect for comedy”

      “Wales, like Hardeep Singh Kohli’s Scotland, is starting to wake up and realize we can go our own way,” the spokesman said.

      “Since the establishment of Stand Up For Wales, we have seen the second Severn Bridge change its name to the Prince of Wales Bridge, Brexit is ripping the so-called ‘United Kingdom’ into pieces, and Boris Johnson became prime minister of the UK.

      “It all offers far more comedy material than can be fit into one gig on a Saturday afternoon in Merthyr.”


      Translation and editing: WS and GT.

    361. Cubby says:

      Have we got a new spy in Downing st. That dog being delivered looked like the Wee Ginger Dug to me. Smart move by Mr Kavanagh. LOL

    362. Thepnr says:

      The Led By Donkeys campaigners are pretty effective at getting their message out. Over the weekend they had Gove’s face on a beach in Redcar that was so big it could be seen from space apparently. Last night an even bigger mugshot of his was beamed onto the white cliffs of Dover 🙂

    363. sassenach says:

      A good sign?

      The site is being infested with ‘fakes’ of late, Coco and FUD leading the imbeciles in their obvious panic mode.

      The more they appear, the happier I am, things are putting the wind up them!!

    364. manandboy says:

      Climate crisis hits the Bahamas in Hurricane Dorian. Devastation and deep flooding – catastrophic.

      Sobering to watch.

    365. jfngw says:

      If Johnson loses his vote then any election is under the largesse of Labour.

      I can’t see the DUP wanting it if they are predicted to lose seats, even one seat loss takes them to a minority of NI MP’s and they can no longer claim to be the voice of NI. The SNP will vote for it, if before 31st Oct, they are predicted to make large gains so why wouldn’t they.

      The LibDem’s, who knows, they will vote against if they think it will remove the Tories I would bet. They would really like to get back into that coalition, I suspect their current leader imagines herself in a ministerial car.

    366. jfngw says:


      It was ‘Dog Day Afternoon’ at number 10.

    367. robertknight says:

      Lots of talk of Section 30 Orders being perpetually refused, devolved executives being suspended under emergency WM legislation, IndyRef2, (if it happens), being unlikely to be ‘fair and above board’ due to Electoral Commission interference, questionable postal ballot numbers, shenanigans at counts, BritNat MSM bias, etc. etc.

      The obvious solution is for the SNP to treat the next UK GE as a single issue campaign for Indy, no other issue involved…

      No permission from WM needed, no interference from the EC over wording, and the MSM will be otherwise engaged instead of spending 100% of it’s energy monstering ‘Yes’.

      All the SNP need do is make it abundantly clear that a vote for the SNP is a vote to commence negotiations with WM immediately in order to restore to Scotland the status of an independent, sovereign State, and that if the SNP receives >50% of the votes cast and >50% of WM seats, then job done.

      A clear, simple and indisputable means of securing Indy.

    368. Capella says:

      Is there a war in progress? Listening idly to R4 in the background there is an unchained stream of wartime memoires. We’ve been through the “special relationship” of the war against America, followed by the Beatles invasion, then onto a wartime museum in old blighty. Now we’re hearing about the cold war and the Cuba crisis.

      Stirring speeches from President Kennedy.

      Maybe we’ll move on next to the “emergency” in Malaya and then South Korea and so on. OTOH back to Westminster and the war in the Tory Party and the war with EU.

      Curiously, the narrators have all had Scottish accents so far: Neil MacGregor, James Naughtie and now Peter Hennessy (is he Scottish or is it now obligatory to adopt a Scottish accent in R4?)

    369. Capella says:

      @ jfngw 9:46

      It was ‘Dog Day Afternoon’ at number 10.

      Boris Johnston had a photo circulated on World Cat Day with Larry sitting on his desk. His SPADs must have a full diary of special days to get Boris a photo op.

    370. Colin Alexander says:


      What exactly are you happy about?

      The scenario we face includes: No deal Brexit. Despite three years of SNP promises that Scotland won’t be dragged out the EU against our will.

      We face the Empire Parliament being prorogued.

      We face a GE before Scotland is dragged out the EU by the British Empire. Many, including Ms Sturgeon, are seriously considering Holyrood might be closed down.

      One certainty: The SNP cannot win a UK GE. Even if they win every seat they contest, it would be 59 out of 650 seats, in the one nation Empire (seen from the eyes of the Empire).

      Should we be excited at the prospect of another 56 MPs that achieved absolutely nothing?

      PS I’ll give you the respect of your screen id when you show others that same respect.

    371. manandboy says:

      Imagine you are a wife in a long-term very abusive marriage, and, after one failed attempt, you just can’t see a way out of it that is within your capacity. But then, quite suddenly, your husband’s health begins to fail badly, to the point whereby he is in real danger of not recovering to normal health, but instead, being left weak, frail and confused.

      Think Scotland and England.

      “Feels almost like the walls are closing in on Johnson & Cummings. Tory rebels mostly holding firm. Labour doesn’t seem to be taking the election bait. Near-constant leaks revealing the absence of a negotiation and disaster of no-deal.” Ian Dunt on Twitter.

    372. chicmac says:

      @Thepnr, 1:48 am

      I always said they would keep Corbyn in power as long as he was useful to them.

      Could the ultra right (elected AND MSM) have got this far with a reasonable opposition?

      Also, they had hope that a lefty would pull back support from the SNP but that failed utterly.

      His usefulness will very soon be over, time for him to go.

    373. sassenach says:


      I’ve watched your dribblings and obvious dislike of anything the SNP do – you are (in my eyes) a Britnat flying under a false flag of disruption.

      Respect is to be earned.

    374. Nana says:

      This morning’s hearing in the Outer House of the Court of Session will be live streamed on the STV website. Court currently expected to sit from about 10.15 am.

      Not sure exactly where on Stv

    375. Welsh Sion says:

      Cappella @ 9.58 am

      Scotland, know your enemies.

      In August 2014, Lord Hennessy was one of 200 public figures who were signatories to a letter to The Guardian opposing Scottish independence in the run-up to September’s referendum.[10]

    376. Thepnr says:

      Getting hotter by the minute for Johnson/Cummings in No 10.

      Sir Nicholas Soames tells me he will vote against the Govt tonight, unless the PM (who he’s going to see now) can assure him a Brexit deal will be done. Boris therefore faces the uncomfortable prospect of deselecting Winston Churchill’s grandson.

    377. Johnny says:

      A lot of excitement on Twitter this morning at Norman Smith’s suggestion that the opposition at Westminster might take control of the order paper to ensure No Deal cannot happen and then refuse to vote for a General Election.I think this is misguided.

      While I completely agree that a referendum should be used for binary questions, I can’t for the life of me see how the opposition parties at Westminster can do what they plan to and then NOT go for an election.

      How else will the impasse be broken?

      It’s one thing trying to legislate to take No Deal off the table but then what?

      Many down South will see it probably see it as illegitimate for “taking control of the order paper” to also mean “making another decisive decision on Brexit without having one a mandate to do so”.

      Surely an election must follow or how do the opposition expect to break the endless loop we are in?

      I don’t think the English electorate at large will be impressed by this, and it just seems likely to hand Johnson a bigger majority whenever he holds one due to the idea that “the opposition tried to stymie democracy and then avoid the people’s verdict at an election”.

      Very risky.

      Different picture in Scotland, of course.

    378. Colin Alexander says:


      I welcomed the SNP’s Continuity Bill. It achieved something: it made the Empire reveal it’s hand that devolution and the Sewel Convention was worthless lies by the Empire.

      Now, the Empire have made it explicit in the EU Withdrawal Bill: If Scotland’s Parliament says no, it means yes to the Empire. If, Scotland’s Parliament withholds consent, it means yes.

      I welcome the SNP’s Referendum Bill. Whether it will ever get the chance to become law remains to be seen.

      When Boris Johnson’s Govt have been prepared to by-pass their beloved UK Parliament like the tyrant Cromwell, only a fool would believe they will respect a democratic mandate for indyref2 given by those despised people of Scotland.

    379. manandboy says:

      The view from Europe, as it invariably is, is a little more balanced, a little more objective, and 100% more truthful.

      If only we could see ourselves as the Europeans see us.
      If only we could see the financial accounts for Scotland which The Treasury in London keeps a closely guarded secret.

      We already know what British Nationalists, Unionists, Loyalists, the Tory/Labour Alliance, and the English Ruling Class think of us. But that’s really just a problem of bad attitude and greed. So we needn’t bother too much about that, now do we.

    380. sassenach says:

      Keep trying Coco, I’m sure we all take you seriously!!

    381. Capella says:

      Hi Nana – great to see you posting again, thx.

      @ Welsh Sion – re Peter Hennessy Ha! I might have known!

    382. Thepnr says:

      Who will win the vote tonight and will Johnson get his election on 14th Oct? Peston thinks the rebels will win and that Johnson will get his election. He does reserve some doubt though. In other words his guess is as good as any of ours.

    383. Bill Hume. says:

      What will the Oxbridge ruling classes REALLY lose if Scotland dissolves the union?

      I’m struggling to think of anything substantial.
      Please don’t say all that oil because the oil companies will still be producing, tax income?….well they have already convinced most of England that the ‘sweaty socks’ are actually subsidised by England.

      I see them gaining Tory rule for the forseable future and they will still have their ill gotten gains safely stashed away in overseas tax havens.

      Could we in the independence movement soon be shooting at an open goal?

    384. Robert Kerr says:


      The Irish Times has published a genetic survey of the British Isles.

      I can be accused of “Blut und Boden” nationalism but clearly the English are different.

    385. Baldeagle58 says:

      Nana says:

      3 September, 2019 at 10:12 am

      Hi Nana,

      I’ve started checking out your ‘Nana’s Links’ page and now have it bookmarked, but it’s great to see you posting on Wings again.
      Welcome back! 🙂

    386. Aikenheed says:

      Bill Hume:
      Oxbridge people being a shoo in for ruling elite will face a diminished role in the international arena as England will have lost its strategic positioning for the GIUK gap for one thing. Plus a credible base for their “independent” nuclear deterrent.

    387. Bill Hume. says:

      Indeen Aikenheed, but do the money men who now run the UK actually care enough about either of these things?

      I hae mah doots.

    388. manandboy says:

      While here in Bonnie Scotland, a crisis is looming, should there be a General Election on October 14th, and should the Scottish Government NOT treat it as a vote for Independence, preferring to hang on for the ‘gold standard’ of a Referendum, which will require a section 30 Order from the sitting Government at Westminster, which Boris Johnson will never agree to.

      There’s going to be an awful lot of people in Scotland who are going to be very unhappy about that, if, if, if, that is to be the case. Or, I could be totally wrong about that.

    389. galamcennalath says:

      An excellent thread picked up via WoS twitter. IMO worth repeating so more can see it.

      If we want power, we have to take it.


      Quick constitutional history of Scotland in the UK,

      1) The only reason a home rule vote didn’t take place prior to 1979 is it would have won.

      2) The reason Labour rigged the 1979 referendum with the 40% rule is because yes was going to win.

      3) The reason the Tories never delivered their “proper home rule” referendum promised during 1979 referendum is because it would have won.

      4) The reason actual federalism wasn’t on the ballot in the 1997 referendum is because it would have won.

      5) The only reason the 2014 independence referendum took place is because No was going to win by miles.

      6) The reason unionist parties refused to put federalism on the 2014 ballot is because it would have won.

      7) The reason unionist parties refused to put together a federalism proposal and put it to a vote after they had to break purdah and promise federalism in the 2014 vote is, it would have won.

      8) The reason Westminster is now refusing a second independence referendum is because Yes will win.

      9) Geopolitics is about power, the UK was and still thinks it is a player.

      10) Players will do everything they can to avoid giving up any power to anybody.

    390. Aikenheed says:

      I would hazard a guess that being seen as influential in geopolitical backroom dealing will have financial benefits in world financial matters. Arms deals, oil cartel stuff and that.

    391. Thepnr says:


      If the opposition to a no deal Brexit do succeed (a big if)in taking control of the agenda and an extension is achieved from the EU. Then the obvious next step is to try and win a vote that obliges the government to bring about a second EU referendum.

      Failure to win that would result in Corbyn bring his own Vote of No Confidence in the government, a GE then would be the likely result. Might be that after a no deal Brexit is prevented by an extension that Corbyn takes his chances and goes straight for a VONC.

      Whatever happens tonight an early General Election cannot be that far off in my view, all roads lead to that being the most likely destination.

    392. geeo says:

      Bill Hume @10.51am

      What they (oxbridge ruling class) will lose, is the ability to make laws which assist their wealth generation at the publics expense.

      Almost 10 years of tory austerity, public spending slashed to the bone, yet national debt up nearly £1 trillion.

      Where is that money ?

      Not in public services, no sir.

      Not in infrastructure, no sir, or we would live in a movie style futuristic metropolis, rather than a cash starved society other than the super rich.

      £1 trillion added to public debt, no obvious benefit to the public.

      Meanwhile, the super rich get even richer during this same period.

      Coincidence ?

      Rather unlikely.

      When Scotland ends the Uk, and becomes independent once more, the lies of over 300 years will become very obvious, very quickly.

      Oil is only a part of it, but oil has one role hardly mentioned. The petro dollar is important in that it provides a regular foreign currency income, and allows cheaper borrowing rates as the provable regular income is a gold standard guarantor of said borrowing.

      Indy removes that from WM and it becomes OUR asset in that regard.

      Once English voters realise the truth of, the role of Scottish revenues, in regards to THEIR fiscal well being, things could get real ugly, real quick for the WM ruling ‘oxbridge’ class.

      So yeah, they have a lot to lose from our indy.

      If indy helped them, we would have been long gone from the Union Treaty by now.

    393. Cubby says:

      I was impressed by Drew Hendry on Sky news. Comes across well and talks about the nations of the UK rather than the vague “the country” . A very good performer on TV.

    394. galamcennalath says:

      Given the shite show England/UK has become and is likely to stay for decades, it might just be that an independent Scotland in the EU and Irish reunification could be considered the best outcome from a global perspective. If internationally, that thinking becomes established, it will benefit our cause no end!

    395. Hamish100 says:

      The BBc live cast on the Court case is very interesting. Still ongoing.

    396. geeo says:

      Oh look, BBC Politics Live is back to discuss possible election.

      Helen Whately: Tory MP

      Jonathan Ashworth: LAB MP

      Layla Moran: Libdem MP (virtually a feckin host on this farce)

      Tim Montgomerie: (Tory) Blogger.

      Possible snap GE ? Shhh….dont tell Scots.

    397. call me dave says:

      Judge calls for a ‘brexit’ 15mins.

      Absorbing stuff listening while catching up on the threads. 🙂

    398. Nana says:

      Hi Capella.
      Just thought to pop in to let Wingers know the court case was being livestreamed but you know I’m never far away 🙂

      Morning Baldeagle good to know you are reading links.

    399. manandboy says:

      THE TORY STRATEGY IS TO RUN DOWN THE CLOCK. Always has been. Stay in power for as long as is humanly possible, to allow all the secretive and unlawful money ‘transfers’ to continue uninterrupted, which is after all, how we grow ever richer in the Ruling Class.

      Steve Bullock and Peter Foster on Twitter

      Attempts at renegotiation are pantomime for domestic consumption. The strategy is to run down the clock. The objective is No Deal.

      Please, please read this thread from someone who has proven themselves to be one of the most reliable journos around.

    400. Capella says:

      @ Nana – thx for good link with Michael Heseltine sounding very worried about the Tory Party now. Warning from history.

    401. robertknight says:


      All very complicated, therefore…


      Much simpler, no?


    402. Heart of Galloway says:

      You know my view, my friend.

      My question is: how does Labour row back from a GE after winning a HoC vote against Johnson? And after Corbyn’s posturing bravado last night? With great difficulty, I would suggest, if taunts of “toom tabards” are to be avoided.

      Meanwhile, Ian Blackford was very impressive under questioning from Gary Robertson on GMS this morning.

      While he was maintaining the “we will work with other parties to stop a no-deal Brexit” line far more significant were very strong hints that the SNP manifesto for the upcoming GE will have the “Claim of Right” upholding Scottish popular sovereignty stamped all over it.

      A far cry from the timid affair of 2017. If the pieces fall into place there in no going back – and the SNP decoupling from a pan-UK approach to attempting to ameliorating Brexit will begin as saving Scotland takes centre stage.

    403. gus1940 says:


      I see that Harry & Megan are now back kn The UK.

      Our wonderful media fail to mention how they returned.

      Was it another private jet or perhaps they swam back?

    404. Capella says:

      Great thread from Michael Gray inside the Court of Session:

    405. Doug says:

      Evidence given in Court of Session proves again that Johnson is a liar.

    406. galamcennalath says:

      Johnson, and now Cummings, claiming negotiations with the EU are progressing well.

      EU says nothing is moving because the UK have made no alternative backstop proposals.

      Who do I believe?

      Obviously the EU. And that means I believe Johnson and his cabal are lying to voters as part of a cynical attempt to engineer a catastrophic outcome.

      Jeez, even Thatcher was never this bad!

    407. K1 says:

      Micheal Gray is doing an outstanding job in keeping us informed, no spinning, no torturous twists which is exactly what the Scottish MSM will apply in their reporting of court proceedings.

      Big thank you to Micheal from those of us not on the twitterspere 🙂

    408. Breeks says:

      Capella says:
      3 September, 2019 at 12:01 pm

      Great thread from Michael Gray inside the Court of Session:

      …”O’Neill: This court knows nothing of English law. Scots Law is the law of this Kingdom. This is the Court of Session – created by the act of Parliament. These courts are not a Royal Court like in England. This court is not subject to the power of the Crown.”


    409. Effijy says:

      I’m reading about how the DUP are all against another election.

      No wonder. They have been allowed to fill the pockets of their supporters with £500 Million from a wood chip fuelled boiler scam, the Tories promised them a couple of Billion extra for keeping the Tories in power with a supply and confidence deal and a few Million extra to rebuild an old Bank Building that was of historical interest.

      If their votes are no longer required after an election, you just got to know the whole lot will be cancelled and they can go whistle for another magic money tree.

      Confidence tricksters with paramilitary connections holding Scottish Tax payers to ransome with Tory backing.

      I’m a Scottish Entity, Get Me Out Of here!

    410. Thepnr says:

      Johnson’s 10:15 meeting with “rebels” didn’t go as well as he hoped. 🙂

      Bust up at rebel MPs’ meeting with PM:
      PM: ‘I will not tolerate a Bill that hands over power to Corbyn.’
      Hammond: ‘We are handing over power to parliament.’
      PM: ‘You are handing power over to a junta that includes Jeremy Corbyn.’

    411. Terry callachan says:

      Anyone else had 2 forms P1 sent to them ?
      That’s the form the council send you asking you to confirm who lives in your house.
      You get the choice of either completing and returning the form to your council
      Or you can use website your council whatever it is
      The form gives you two codes to use if you opt to use the website

      I used the website several weeks ago, all went well

      But today I got another form P1 ?

      I went to the website again to enter details but up popped a message onscreen saying I had already provided this information to them.

      This suggests that the company that administer this website , idox software solutions part of idox plc have not passed on my information to my council.

      How can we rely on the integrity of our voting system when this kind of thing happens ?

      I’m going to complete and return this second P1 to my council just to make sure they have my up to date information but like many others I have long been suspicious about how many people use the postal vote and the proxy vote and this kind of sloppy administering of the registration to vote process doesn’t help.

    412. Bill Hume. says:

      It’s all a bit tasty today. Unfortunately I have to take Mrs. H. into Kilmarnock……………but ‘I’ll be back’.

    413. Thepnr says:

      Looks like Johnson is going full pelt for his “Do or Die”.

      I understand former business secretary Greg Clark offered to vote with @BorisJohnson today if PM promised to give parliament vote to veto no-deal after 21 October and after crucial last EU council before Brexit day. “We said ‘no way José’” says Johnson ally

    414. galamcennalath says:

      Bill Hume. says:

      into Kilmarnock

      …. now there’s a phrase from my youth 🙂

    415. Macart says:

      @Capella and Thepnr

      Whoddathunk? (in both instances) 😉

      Mr Gray doing a grand job on running commentary. And as for Johnson’s meeting?

      Take a wild guess at what’s happening to the Tory party ’bout now.

    416. robertknight says:

      No ‘Legal Eagle’, but on the face of it O’Neill is doing a grand job on behalf of the Petitioners – and by default, the rest of us mere mortals.

      Thanks for tweeting Michael Gray.

    417. Thepnr says:

      In other news, HS2 now estimated to cost £80 billion and will be delayed for at least 5 years.

      We want all our money back that Westminster has robbed from us as “our share” of this bill. Scotland receives no benefit at all from HS2. They take us for mugs while they spaff our taxes up against the wall on idiotic projects and fools errands rather than it be used to benefit Scotland, eh Boris!

    418. Republicofscotland says:

      Right if we end up with a GE, should Sturgeon run on a premise of a majority win is also a independence victory?

      If not why not?

    419. gus1940 says:

      I am surprised that nobody- politician or media has commented on the fact that 2 of the leading Brexiteers David Davies and Liam Fox do not feature in Johnson’s Nazi Junta.

    420. Dr Jim says:

      The media both in Scotland and England don’t seem to be too sure about what they’re supposed to be reporting on, on the one hand you have the approach of interviewing politicians to ask them what they’re going to do then repeating what they said for abour four hours ad nauseum, then we have the big newsies with more money hiring streams of constitutional *experts* who it seems all phoned each other up beforehand to get their answers straight by saying *we just don’t know*

      The main tactic of the news media in all this is to interview themselves to bring us the latest information and insights into their own opinion, in other words *not report the news*, they even go so far as to ask each other what other people are thinking and what would happen if anybody though something differentt from what they thought they thought

      Confused? and what’s worse it’s insulting as they tell us they’re going to bring us 24 hour news and facts about what’s taking place in the *not news*

      Job creation for *journalists* by *journalists* and sold to us as news, although, we’re daft enough to pay for it, and watch it

      I just realised that makes me thicker than them for reporting my opinion of their opinion on absolutely nothing

    421. Thepnr says:


      A while since this tune has had an outing on Wings, overdue 🙂

    422. Dr Jim says:


      Once everybody gets off the great HS2 train at Leeds they’ll all mount bycicles for their onward green journey to Scotland

      See how the benefit works there, we only have to provide the HS bycicles

    423. robertknight says:


      “Right if we end up with a GE, should Sturgeon run on a premise of a majority win is also a independence victory?”

      Absolutely, BUT ONLY if the SNP manifesto specifically states that a vote for the SNP is a vote for Indy and NOTHING ELSE.

      We cannot be a hostage to those who would try to muddy the waters.

      Furthermore, it should be made clear that only in the event of >50% of votes cast AND >50% of WM seats going to the SNP will that trigger moves to return Scotland to the status of an independent, sovereign State.

      Anything else risks being found wanting in terms of legitimacy in the eyes of those outwith Scotland/UK.

    424. Thepnr says:

      The original poster of that song on Youtube said this.

      Dancers dancing on Hot Butter’s 1972 hit single Pop Corn while the director took some XTC.

      Haha now I know why.

    425. call me dave says:

      Politics is politics so…..FO!

      This appears to be what WM has in brought to court. 🙁

    426. Jack Murphy says:

      Thankyou Poster Wesh Sion for your link at 10:13 am when you said :
      “…..In August 2014, Lord Hennessy was one of 200 public figures who were signatories to a letter to The Guardian opposing Scottish independence in the run-up to September’s referendum.[10]……”

      Many thanks for that info—–I didn’t know anything about that letter. Here it is from the Guardian Archived.

      The Guardian:

    427. call me dave says:

      Outside the point where legal standards can be employed. Jings!

      That’s it then. Case dismissed carry on Boris. 🙂

    428. mumsyhugs says:

      Hello Nana!!! Lovely to ‘see’ you again! Please stay 🙂

    429. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

      Heart of Galloway says:
      3 September, 2019 at 11:57 am

      While he [Blackford] was maintaining the “we will work with other parties to stop a no-deal Brexit” line far more significant were very strong hints that the SNP manifesto for the upcoming GE will have the “Claim of Right” upholding Scottish popular sovereignty stamped all over it.


      Now, that’s MUCH more like it from the SNP, if indeed they stick to this. I’ve been waiting 20 years for the SNP to move popular sovereignty to the heart of the indy cause.


      robertknight says:
      3 September, 2019 at 2:11 pm

      “Right if we end up with a GE, should Sturgeon run on a premise of a majority win is also a independence victory?”

      Absolutely, BUT ONLY if the SNP manifesto specifically states that a vote for the SNP is a vote for Indy and NOTHING ELSE.


      Not saying you’re wrong, Robert, but it is incredibly hard for the SNP to get over 50% of the vote in a WM election. We struggle enough as it is to get fair airtime, but if we go on a full-blown indy platform you can guarantee we’ll get even less exposure on TV.

      On the other hand, if the media are solely focused on WM, it does limit their ability to launch another Shock and Awe at us. Who knows, maybe we could Frodo and Sam 50%+ under their noses while the Eye of Sauron is on London.

      Doubt it’ll happen this time round, though. But it is encouraging to hear Blackford’s noises about sovereignty. They can hardly run a more milquetoast campaign than they did in 2017, can they?

    430. Capella says:

      Interesting denial of the Treaty of Union provisions from the Govt Counsel (Roddy Dunlop I think, (the Establishment’s man):

      Gov Counsel considers the issue of Scots law – & says it would be odd if Queen of the UK proroguing the UK Parliament was subject to different legal interpretations of prerogative power in Scotland & England.

    431. robertknight says:

      Unionist BDSM@3:05

      “Not saying you’re wrong, Robert, but it is incredibly hard for the SNP to get over 50% of the vote in a WM election. “

      The bar would be set not so as to make it easy, but to make it legitimate in the eyes of any and all who would care to look.

      If, in the face of BawJaws and his Junta pressing for a hard-Brexit, the SNP/Yes cannot persuade 51% of the electorate who cast a vote that Scotland is best served outwith the Union then IMHO it never will!

      Now is not the time for hesitation!

    432. defo says:

      Unionist Media BDSM Club

      An election run solely on Indy wouldn’t be asking the electorate to vote for the SNP per se, but asking for those just elected to vacate Westmidden tout de suite.
      We’re at, or beyond by now surely, 52%!

      An election in name only, really a plebiscite in fact.

      And ne-ery enough time for the dark actors to get the fix in too!

    433. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      K1 @ 12:43, and others,

      I would just like to add my thanks to Michael for his coverage.

      Trials fusty? – never, when they’re at the heart of the constitution like this.

      Capella @ 15:16,

      Imagine that, we’re in a Union that guarantees the independence of Scots Law at its very constitutional heart, and a UKGov lawyer can imply in open court that we should just defer to England. If he’s a lawyer registered in Scotland he should be struck off.

      “odd”? Well, that’s one consequence of their damned union, so he should like it or lump it.

      The resolution of that “problem” is in fact very simple and obvious.

    434. Liz g says:

      Capella @ 3.16
      While I’d take bets the judgement doesn’t touch in this!
      It was indeed interesting…
      Because that there are two separate legal systems is Exactly what the Treaty of the “UK” says there is,no matter who is Queen of it

    435. Capella says:

      @ Robert Kerr 10.51 – the BBC has this article on Scots DNA. It also has a related article which ends:

      Scotland’s DNA will soon be renamed Britain’s DNA as the project aims to widen its genetic study to include the English, Welsh and Irish.

    436. Dr Jim says:

      A walk in the Black forest Gateaux: not park

      If the rebel alliance wins this and get the GE they say they want and the three months article 50 extension Jeremy Corbyn can’t win a GE and it looks like the numbers still won’t stack up for a deal with SNP to put Corbyn into No10, they can’t depend on the Liberal Democrats because well they’re Tories, so in the end Boris Johnson Snooks First Order of the Empire wins anyway

      The only hope for Corbyn is that in the three month extension to article 50 he can convince everybody to do well what? because he still hasn’t told anybody or admitted to anything, he just keeps saying vote for me and jobs

      None of this pantomime is going to achieve anything different to what’s happening right now, the neverending Brexit story

      Scotland needs to board the Millenium Falcon and shift it into warp speed, but how do we make sure there are still no Klingons on the starboard bow so our escape is definite Jim

      Even Luke Skywalker couldn’t fix this

      The next thrilling installment will be directed by Ridley Scott and released next January by which time we’ll all have topped ourselves from boredom after losing the will to live

    437. A.Bruce says:

      I’ve missed you Nana. Good to see you back.

    438. Thepnr says:

      Nicola Sturgeon speaks on the passage of the Referendum Bill and her plans for any General Election in relation to Independence.

      “I can confirm today that during the passage of the Bill we will seek agreement to the transfer of power that will put the referendum beyond legal challenge.

      “We have a clear democratic mandate to offer the choice of independence within this term of Parliament and we intend to do so.”

      Ms Sturgeon warned that the issue will be at the heart of the looming general election, expected to be held next month.

      “Let me be crystal clear today, the SNP will put Scotland’s opposition to Brexit and our right to choose independence at the very heart of that contest.”

      So now we know.

    439. Colin Alexander says:

      We need a means of exercising our sovereignty on a daily basis, not as one-off events, such as indyref.

      That means a Parliament that represents our sovereignty.

      That “sovereign” parliament can then hold indyref, or veto UK legislation.

      The British Empire will never accept it.

      The Union will be over. The indyref can referendum can then confirm it.

    440. Thepnr says:

      Boris Johnson and Cummings might say Oops.

      Tory MP Phillip Lee defects to the Lib Dem’s ending Boris Johnson’s majority.

      they deserve everything that’s coming, always said he was a clown.

    441. Capella says:

      @ RJS @ Liz g – very interesting indeed.
      I’m certain the Govt. Counsel is Roddy Dunlop * and he is Scottish so should know the facts. He is denying here that, in Scotland, the people are sovereign and so the monarch has no divine right.

      * He was counsel for Alistair Carmichael v the Orkney 4, counsel for the outfit suing Andy Wightman, counsel for the Scottish Govt defence in Alex Salmond case (he lost that one) and counsel for Kezia Dugdale I’m pretty sure. i.e. defends all the wrong people.

      Let’s see if the judge upholds our Claim of Right.

    442. Colin Alexander says:

      Correction: The Union will be over. The indyref can then be held to confirm independence.

    443. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 15:05,

      I think you’re basically right, given the UK-wide (ie. heavy London-biased) media emphasis in a WM canpaign, it’s hard for the “minority” =ahem= parties to get a fair look in, even though the SNP is by far the major player here in Scotland. An effective exclusion not only in amount of coverage, but also in issues covered.

      UKGEs therefore have a built-in anti-SNP bias that makes any political mandate based on a simple majority of total votes cast very difficult to achieve in the current circumstances (and if attempted, might well annul the previous mandates already achieved). Opponents might well shift the goalposts anyway, and require a majority of registered voters, thereby recruiting legions of the dead and feckless against.

      But just a significant increase of seats (for a house in which they are disregarded whatever their number) is enough – it fatally holes below the waterline all the nonsense spouted by the likes of the Little Corporal (now Private) and Lenny Whatsisname. If the previous election delivered a “win” =harrumph= for the Tories, this one will deliver a very real double win for the SNP. And that will resonate.

    444. Thepnr says:

      The defection of Tory MP Lee to the Lib Dems doesn’t just end Johnson’s majority even with the support of the DUP. It gives the opposition a majority of 1.

      Wouldn’t be surprised if Johnson was to resign in a matter of weeks, fecking Bullindon Brat.

    445. Meindevon says:

      Hi Nana. So good to hear from you again. Please stay and give us your links again. I miss them on here. I know we can still see them but to be honest I’ve probably only checked out half of them since you left and no doubt missed a lot of good info.

      I know it’s just me being a lazy lump but it was so easy before. I’d guess I’m not the only one. We need you here.

    446. Republicofscotland says:

      “Furthermore, it should be made clear that only in the event of >50% of votes cast AND >50% of WM seats going to the SNP will that trigger moves to return Scotland to the status of an independent, sovereign State.”

      Why would it need to be 50%? Why not just a majority of SNP MP’s at Westminster, currently there are 24 unionist and 35 SNP MP’s at Westminster.

      Why fall into the George Cunningham grap again.

    447. Capella says:

      Dearie me. I was checking the BBC website article on the Court of Session case to find out who the Govt. Counsel is. There are some clips there of Aidan O’Neill ripping the Govt case to shreds. Unfortunately, my sound suddenly and unexpectedly died. RIP.

      Not certain now if it is Roddy Dunlop for the Govt.

      I don’t listen to the BBC live broadcasts as I don’t pay the licence fee. So will catch up later on proceedings.
      Michael Gray’s tweets are v welcome though.

    448. call me dave says:

      Decision at 10:00am tomorrow in the CoS. 🙁

    449. starlaw says:

      Westminster rules are ‘First Past The Post’ No if’s but’s or mabey’s No Party has ever been elected to Westminster on over 50% of the vote. Do not make up rules where there are none, If SNP win most Scottish seats then they have won in Scotland.

    450. galamcennalath says:

      A vision if reality perhaps!


      After no deal, the EU would demand that the UK sign up to the provisions of the withdrawal agreement, but in exchange for an emergency deal that is far worse than the standstill transition. “

      Leaving with no deal is only delaying the inevitable and causing pain and suffering in the interim!

    451. Thepnr says:

      May takes her seat on the backbenches and sits right next to Ken Clarke LOL

      Another putting the boot into Johnson who is being attacked from all sides and is clearly struggling and giving himself a showing up.

    452. Jack Murphy says:

      Scottish Parliament TV. TODAY.




      Followed by Questions to the First Minister.

      Remember to ‘Unmute’

      Scottish Parliament TV. Debating Chamber.

    453. galamcennalath says:

      starlaw says:

      No Party has ever been elected to Westminster on over 50% of the vote.

      Stanley Balwin’s Conservatives in 1935. Which was a while ago.

      That said, I agree with your point. Governments which completely changed the UK like Attlee’s Labour or Thatcher’s Tories gained absolute power with less than 50%. Most voters rejected them. That’s the WM way.

      If the SNP’s manefesto makes an offer to the voters in Scotland and they back it, then by the rules of WM it becomes the will of the people with due obligation on the part of elected politicians to deliver.

    454. Doug says:

      @Republicofscotland 3:54pm

      Tend to agree with you. Why make the britnats’ job less difficult?

      Edinburgh should just say, as far as Scotland is concerned, the union with England is finished.

      All hell is braking lose; Scotland must take advantage of it.

    455. galamcennalath says:


      Government stood 1931-35

    456. robertknight says:


      To answer your “why?”, because as I said “to make it legitimate in the eyes of any and all who would care to look”.

      No chance for the ‘ah, but…’ brigade to try to undermine the result. The Cunningham trap where not voting or even being dead but appearing on the Electoral Register is taken as an anti-Indy vote couldn’t be played in a GE scenario.

      Colin Alexander@3:44

      You don’t need an IndyRef2 to confirm anything if on a ticket of a vote for the SNP = Indy the SNP gets >50% of votes cast and >50% of seats. There’s your confirmation!

    457. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 16:04,

      If people imagine that the Brexit farrago might finally be over on 31.Oct (or whenever), they will soon enough have to think again.

      Brexit only starts on Brexit Day. The ensuing negotiations will go on for decades to come. With no-deal, it just starts off in a considerably worse shambles.

    458. call me dave says:

      Jings! The PM is being booed from all sides in the commons.

      He has no answers and is being shown up as the mountebank and fraudster that he is.

    459. Effijy says:

      Great to see Nana’s posts directly again.

      Remarkable Lady!

      Keep well. we need the lines of you

    460. Thepnr says:

      I suspect that one Scottish Tory MP might vote against Johnson tonight, Paul Masterton did so before on the Cooper/Letwin bill. Will he do so again will any others?

      I emailed mu MP Kristine Hair this morning explaining why I thought she should vote with the “rebels” and support the wishes of her constituents to Remain in the EU.

      For some reason I haven’t had a reply yet 🙂

    461. call me dave says:

      Boris ‘will’ uphold any new law passed with regard to Brexit that is passed in the next couple of days.

    462. Republicofscotland says:

      To answer your “why?”, because as I said “to make it legitimate in the eyes of any and all who would care to look”.

      “No chance for the ‘ah, but…’ brigade to try to undermine the result. The Cunningham trap where not voting or even being dead but appearing on the Electoral Register is taken as an anti-Indy vote couldn’t be played in a GE scenario.”

      But it would be legitimate it would represent the voting intentions of the Scottish public would it not?

    463. galamcennalath says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      If people imagine that the Brexit farrago might finally be over on 31.Oct (or whenever), they will soon enough have to think again.

      Brexit only starts on Brexit Day.

      Indeed. It’s been a big part of the ongoing Leave campaign’s message …. “get it done”. And it’s just subterfuge and propaganda. Yet people have swallowed it. I have actually heard people say things like “we need to get it done”, “so we can move on”, “I’m fed up and want it finished”.

      The dark far right forces have managed to get the most cgullible to somehow believe the beginning is actually the end!

      Another really odd one I’ve heard more than once is people saying there were predictions of chaos after the vote which never materialised. They somehow take this as evidence that everything will be alright after Brexitday. I remember no predictions of shortages etc after the vote, only after actually leaving.

    464. Heart of Galloway says:


      Aye, as I said some time ago the Referendum Bill will assume critical importance in terms of providing added legitimacy for IndyRef2 after it becomes law.

      The ScotGov and Holyrood committees won’t hang about in scrutinising it either, given the lateness of the hour.

      Only now are our British nationalist friends and their “operatives” in the media and elsewhere coming to realise its import.

      We can therefore expect shenanigans from our adversaries on several fronts.

      But by invoking the power of the people of Scotland to decide their own future the FM holds all the aces.

    465. robertknight says:


      Yes, but you ever heard the expression “belt and braces”?

      >50% of WM seats isn’t the sticking point.

      Absolute legitimacy comes with >50% of votes cast.

      Both = indisputable at home AND abroad.

    466. manandboy says:


      Mike Pence, US Vice President, on a visit to Ireland, says, in effect, Johnson is right, the rest of you are wrong. Pence is not the full shilling methinks.

      “As the deadline for Brexit approaches we urge Ireland and the European Union, as well, to negotiate in good faith with Prime Minister Johnson, and work to reach an agreement that respects the United Kingdom’s sovereignty and minimises the disruption to commerce,” he said.

    467. Thepnr says:


      Aye, Boris is the man all right.

      Good choice for PM, and many thanks from your friends in Scotland for voting for such a clown to become Prime Minister.

      I can’t thank you enough, genuinely from the heart, cheers! 🙂

    468. jfngw says:

      Good idea being sounded out by some, declare a majority of seats supporting SNP at GE is vote for independence and a confirmatory referendum will be held after a written constitution is completed. In the meantime all political parties at Holyrood can only be from an independent Scotland and registered in Scotland.

      The referendum will confirm a new Scottish written constitution and the singular authority of Holyrood to the sovereign Scottish people

    469. robertknight says:


      Forget IndyRef2 – been there, done that, saw how establishment can play with loaded dice.

      >50% of votes cast + >50 of WM seats = Indy

    470. Terry callachan says:

      It still puzzles me that so many people who want Scottish independence think it a good idea to stop brexit.

      The thing is if a no deal brexit is stopped
      Brexit might be stopped altogether
      Often when voters get tired they just need a wagon to tie their horse to even if the wagon is not going in the direction they started out in.

      No deal brexit just about guarantees Scottish independence
      Why are we fighting it !!!

    471. jfngw says:

      Maybe in an independent Scotland we can produce ‘The Tories: A Warning From History’ in a few years time.

    472. jfngw says:


      Gaining 50% of the vote is nigh on impossible in a GE with around six parties to contend with. I’m not suggesting indyref2 but a confirmation of our already declared independence, no outside input beyond Scotland, no MP’s from elsewhere flooding our streets. The MSM under Scottish legislation, no BBC Scotland news overseen from London.

    473. galamcennalath says:

      Much talk from everyone including the SNP that Indy should be front and centre in the probable GE.

      We all know the Scottish Government’s Plan A – acquire a Section 30 from WM and hold a legally binding IndyRef2. The problem is, virtually no one believes events will play out anything like that!

      I am more than a little concerned that the GE will be fought on the basis of a manifesto featuring Plan A, and that is not a very inspiring idea when it’s already deemed to have no wings (no hidden pun intended).

      I accept Plan B has to be secret and sincerely hope there is actually a Plan B! But I have faith in our government. However, to get the Yes movement behind the SNP in this election, their manifesto will certainly need to be creative and motivational!

    474. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      robertknight @ 16:57,

      Those absolute majorities n a UKGE would unquestionably be an unchalleangeable result. Like many of us, I wish we were in such a place already, but we’re not. So if either hurdle isn’t passed, what is your “Plan B”, if not a referendum on a simple binary question?

      Or do we just struggle on, hoping that one day a UKGE will deliver, after we’re aa deid?

      While in the meantime we have to live with an English supremacist junta and its “Henry VII” powers?

      As is well said, politics is the art of the possible.

    475. call me dave says:


      Gove telling us at the dispatch box all the extra provisions that are being put in place for Brexit at a huge cost…it was all supposed to be easy we’d hardly notice the difference. 🙂

    476. Dan says:

      OT, but I know a few on here like our Scottish wildlife.

      C’mon the wildcats!

    477. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      jfngw @ 16:49,

      That suggestion seems far more practicable.

      A written constitution is indispensible, but that will take time to be done properly. We need something succinct, understandable and durable, not written hastily on the back of a fag packet or a shopping list lifted from an online website. It took the Americans quite a few years post-indy to get theirs sorted, and so should we.

    478. John H. says:

      Will EU nationals living in Scotland be allowed a vote in a GE?

    479. call me dave says:

      Stephen Gethins MP (North East Fife.

      Going to lose his seat says the poll predictor.

      Doing well in the H o Common now. Hope he’s still an MP next month


    480. Thepnr says:

      @John H.

      EU citizens other than the Irish are not allowed a vote in a UK General election.

    481. Dan says:

      @John H.

      EU Nationals and 16 & 17 year olds cannot vote in UK General Election.

      Click through other election options on linked page to check voter eligibility.

    482. galamcennalath says:

      Interestingly, Theresa May is apparently sitting beside Ken Clarke among the other no-deal Tories. More hypocrisy if she now rejects no-deal but wasn’t so clear in her stance while PM. We’ll see soon enough.

    483. dandydons1903 says:

      As the old saying goes “Events dear boy events”

    484. John H. says:

      Thanks Thepnr and Dan. I didn’t think they would be allowed to. That would have helped though.

    485. Phronesis says:

      ‘I think that the left hand of the state has the sense that the right hand no longer knows …what the left hand does…What is described as a crisis of politics ,anti-parliamentarianism is in reality despair at the failure of the state as guardian of the public interest’
      Pierre Bourdieu. Acts of Resistance

      The left hand of the state in Scotland is equally as strong as the right hand of the state which is a requirement for a balanced society.A guarantee that public services have parity with private enterprise, to create a green future and rein in short- term economism and dominance of the markets and consumerism.
      The alternative is the American nightmare – many parallels with the current calamitous events at WM . Scotland will choose wisely.

      ‘A country where the extreme, fanatical right wing takeover of its institutions — all of them — is almost complete. From laws to courts, representation to presidency, norms to rules, from press to public sphere — America is now controlled almost entirely and exclusively by the most fanatical kind of right wingers the rich world hasn’t seen for decades, probably since Nazi Germany…
      The sad story of America’s takeover by right wing extremists begins with the legislature. (At least in simple, tactical terms.) Through the 90s, a band of vocal extremists…explicitly began to reject the basic tenets of democracy — representation, compromise, norms of decency, red lines of civility — and instead began something like a carefully, deliberately planned war against democracy…But you can’t capture the three branches of government if social institutions are working properly. Institutions such as the press, academia, media, and so on. And yet here too, American institutions failed, and failed catastrophically’

    486. Dr Jim says:

      STV news John McKay after reporting the FM is going for Independence for Scotland says “Is there any point to all this while we’re having to go through Brexit”

      Well see if Scotland had voted YES in 2014 we wouldn’t have this problem now would we

      The opposition at Holyrood complains the FM is exploiting Brexit chaos at Westminster in order to hold an Independence referendum

      STVs Colin Mckay says “have they only just noticed”

    487. Robert Kerr says:


      Trust the BBC to spin the DNA studies.

      “Scottish DNA to be renamed British DNA.”

      Obviously a counter to the more complete Irish Times article I linked too.

      Lots of DNA studies already carried out on the English.

      A surprising cluster of Pictish DNA located near York. Possible origin being pictish prisoners/hostages moved there by the Romans to their. Legionary fortress who remained and intermarried.

      I really despise the BBC. They are excrement!

    488. Macart says:


      That took me back.

      Mind you…. popcorn… Mmmmmm. 🙂

    489. Dan says:

      @John H. at 5.49pm

      “No taxation without representation” comes to mind when you see how those in power gerrymander the voter franchise.
      It’s interesting to click and read through the other election information on that page to see the variation in voting systems used, and eligibility criteria such as age.

      Alert readers may also note that after reading through the Scottish, Northern Irish, and Wales sections, for some reason there doesn’t appear to be any information on the English Parliament / Assembly elections…

    490. Dr Jim says:

      Business, food and drink industry, WWF, almost every arm of the economy and energy producers, councils, Universities the list goes on, are delighted with the FMs program for government except the opposition and the Greens in particular who want everybody draped in sack cloth and ashes and sharing one bycicle between everybody and only at the weekend on pain of death plus paying whopping great lumps more in tax for the privilege

      It looks like the FM has managed to puncture all the opposition’s tyres today

      Ooh and short haul electric planes

    491. Robert Louis says:

      And amongst all the mess in London, do we now have OUR Scottish Government telling the world that Scotland is ending the union? No, of course not. But, apparently, they are going to make Scotland the greenest country in the world or something.

      ..oh, and they will once again ask, and be refused a section 30, ‘sometime in the future’. That’ll keep them all in their well-paid jobs until at least 2021, when the charade and request for a mandate will start all over again.

      Meanwhile, the best opportunity for independence in our lifetime passes us by.

      Boris need not worry about Scotland. He needn’t worry at all.

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