Haven’t been to a pantomime in a long while. But now it’s everyday.
jimnarlene
5 years ago
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, Belter.
Alba Laddie
5 years ago
Spat my coffee over the kitchen table when I opened this up today!!!
starlaw
5 years ago
excellent what a great laugh to start the day . . Thanks Chris.
Athanasius
5 years ago
Brilliant
John Lowe
5 years ago
If I stop smiling and laughing today after this belter of a cartoon it will because I have gone to bed ?????????
Sarah
5 years ago
I needed a good laugh. Thank you, Chris!
Perhaps Chris will allow it to be shared with local papers?
Alba Woman
5 years ago
Just brilliant….beautifully drawn….many thanks.
Conan the Librarian
5 years ago
But who is playing his arse…?
HeehawBaws
5 years ago
I picture oor Ross as being much happier under the cover of that back end, for… some … reason.
Effijy
5 years ago
Udder Brilliance!
Disgusted again at the Orange Order Thugs being
Allowed to attack innocent citizens on Glasgow’s Streets.
Senior police and politicians seem to cower as these events prevail.
Have the police or council filmed the event?
Will they announce large number of arrests and prosecutions?
Has a team been set up to trace the organisers?
Not likely. We will be threatened by the red, white and blue
Knuckle Draggers at Indy Ref 2. They will be looking to battle
In the streets and bars tomorrow after the Old Firm Bigot Fest
and the Police will put 6 drinks behind bars until sober and a weekend’s
Booze budget is paid in fines.
Riot Police seem to be on tap at peaceful protest marches but not when it’d the OO ?
I want these guy baton charged, arrested And given long sentences
To discourage their counterparts and their offspring.
Clootie
5 years ago
So much in one sketch!
Ruthie stomping off in a huff perfectly captured.
Dopey Ross, disheveled Boris, the “Coo”
Still smiling
Robert Louis
5 years ago
excellent.
Party appointee and Unelected dictator, Johnson should be in jail. It is all I think every time I see him. The man should be held criminally liable for DELIBERATELY trashing the entire United Kingdom.
Either a democracy or not. Their is no ‘grey area’.
Tom Kane
5 years ago
Superb, Chris. Boris exposed backstage with a coo wannabe and Ruthie throwing in the hat.
Nice to imagine Boris speaking the truth. I hope this cartoon follows him around on buses.
Joe
5 years ago
I know its a cartoon but honestly. You people are pathetic. No, not just pathetic – dangerous, uninformed, ignorant hypocrites. You have no idea the pandoras box you open with this.
The left/remainers are talking about ‘occupying parliament’ and stopping Boris Johnson yet what is happening under the current government is purely within the rules and purely within democratic limits. The elected government of the UK is delivering its mandate on the outcome of a referendum that the people of the UK voted for.
Ive always said it, as have many others, that the left do not care about democracy – its all power play and democracy sometimes adds some legitimacy to it. You are dancing to the tune of globalist powers.
Im all for an independent Scotland but I will stand with Brexiteers on this issue before I stand with disgusting, hypocritical scum who are undermining the very democracy they are appealing to when it comes to Scottish Independence. In the same way id never have backed down if we’d won our own indy ref.
What respect for your democratic rights should anyone have if you support this?
I will never accept my country to be ruled by the kind of ‘well meaning’ tyrants that have wrecked many countries and murdered, starved and destroyed the lives of 10’s of millions so far. The kind that can tell you that men can be women with a mere signing of a form. That can tell you with a straight face that they are saving democracy by shitting on the result of referendum.
The leaders of this attempt are painting themselves for what they are. Their supporters also.
Lets bring it on then. War it is.
Clootie
5 years ago
An added bonus Chrie, Joe is upset!
robertknight
5 years ago
Oh, well played.
Scotspine
5 years ago
Pipe down Joe. You’ve made a fud of yourself that thousands will read. “War it is”…..eejit.
Great cartoon Chris.
Maggie
5 years ago
Aw Joe, ur ye ragin?
Frank Gillougley
5 years ago
Ere wots he tokeen ’bout? Aih? (Said wiv best cockney gangster accent I can muster).
Trouble is Joe, like your heroes, you’re just another cardboard character.
Among the endless politicians and commentators cartoons speak a beautiful truth.
Joe
5 years ago
@ Clootie
Upset?
A large group of people (including political leaders) are talking about physically occupying/overturning parliament, in the face of a democratically held referendum, while demanding that their democratic rights be respected.
Do you know what happens when the democratic process is undermined enough that nobody will respect the results?
Do you know what the people who voted for this are thinking when they see this happening?
If that doesn’t bother you then you are nothing more than an ignorant child.
Effijy
5 years ago
Hey Joe.
Where are you going with that gun in your hand?
It seems to be your Westminster Democratic Rules
To get into power with nothing but lies like £350 Million per week to the NHS.
It seems fine in UK rules to attack the basic benefits of the severely handicapped and disabled.
Your rules give no limit to the millions of children living in poverty while larger corporations are
Given Billions in rebates and allowed to pay Zero Tax.
It’s in the rules you love to see schools and wards closed down
Due to Austerity cuts.
Your beloved rules seen thousands of women confined to their homes due to period poverty.
It’s in your rules to give Scotland no voice in its economic future, to steal its resources to take it out
Of Europe against its will and in a format that suits the English.
It’s in the rules that we are not permitted to know what’s in the top secret files
Relating to the Dunblane massacre.
It’s in the rules we have a corrupt and biased national broadcaster that all 37 newspapers available
In 2014, were against independence while the polls stood at 50/50.
It’s in the rules that I can watch All of England’s football matches on Scottish TV, and that’s Men’s, women’s and youths but not Scotland’s matches.
Presenter Gary Liniker as part of a 3 man team gets more money from the BBC
than Scottish Football.
Rules that stopped woman from voting, put children down coal mines and drove families into
The sea during the Highland clearances And starved millions in Ireland were all condemned.
The fascist Tory Party and its supporters are also to be condemned.
Cactus
5 years ago
THIS is one dress rehearsal the Tories got all wrong
Ruth Hood and her merry men thieves
They take from the poor and give to the rich (pooling n sharing)
So Johnson is in Churchill pose and garb. But as for his thumb? I reckon Ross is gonna get squished any time soon.
Terry callachan
5 years ago
What about this a flute band in Glasgow marching through the streets protesting against a united Ireland so people complain and form their own protest against them and trouble ensues
LOL, , very good Chris.
Begging bowl’s out again.
We’ve one week to get this to 60% so the production can be paid and shipping occurs on time.
I have a busy week coming up so if anyone feels like pushing this on here, F**ebook or Tw**ter…. link to gofundme.com
Terry callachan
5 years ago
We don’t want Ireland’s political discord played out on the streets of Scotland
Every year flute bands from Scotland go to Northern Ireland to join in unionist marches and now we have an Irish republican flute band marching in Glasgow
Both must be stopped
Conan the Librarian
5 years ago
Ah! Joe is the arse end of the coo.
ahundredthidiot
5 years ago
The basis of some peoples anger can be found deep down inside them. Cognitive dissonance has a powerful effect over people who have just enough intelligence to know, somewhere rooted inside their tiny little brains, that they are in fact, wrong. Then their emotions come to the surface when they are trying to make their own argument, however wrong it is.
Got to admire their passion, but the angry boxer always loses.
Dorothy Devine
5 years ago
Cartoon is brilliant! ( though I always thought that Panto’s were full of joy and fun – unlike the reality we face today)
Tartanpigsy, is there a way I can donate that does not require my details to be on line? I have been diddled once before and will never put details on line again.
Apparently, Ross prefers to be at the rear end of the coo, but for some strange reason none of the usual tory sycophants volunteered to steer the beast.
Gary45%
5 years ago
Hey Joe, Where are you going with that giant chip on your shoulder?
I think you have the wrong site son, what’s the weather like in Thanet?
Cracking “toon” Chris. Nice One.
Republicofscotland
5 years ago
Ha,ha brilliant Chris.
Meanwhile Scottish Civil servants have been blocked by Westminster from attending Brussels on devolved matters, as Brexit secretary Stephen Barclay trades away our industries.
Agree with what you say but the worry is this could be used as an excuse to try to ban Yes/Indy marches in future. See the problem wasn’t with the marchers but the bigots who turned out against the march, so a record of peaceful marching may not be enough in future.
Republicofscotland
5 years ago
Not an MP and with no political authority, closed shop speaker, Gordon Brown who’s wheeled out regularly and fawned over by the media, has said he believes the EU will withdraw its current 31st of October deadline.
However the EU Council has said it cannot withdraw a deadline, and that only the member state can ask for a further extension.
Poor Ross, I don’t think he really twigged that Boris is much more comfortable with the green welly and Barbour set than thrusting young upstart Thatcherites.
Ross Thomson as leader of the Scottish Conservatives?
What about the hastened effect on climate change though? Can you imagine the shovel-loads of erm… ‘methane’ that would have to be disposed of after a First Minister’s Questions session with Nicola?
Now there’s yer pantomime!
Is it too much to hope for?
Macart
5 years ago
That’s a keeper Chris. 😀 LOL
Breeks
5 years ago
Interesting. Boris usurps the Parliamentary Sovereignty of Westminster, robs MP’s of a few days debate, and within hours he’s taken to Court, facing emergency measures in England, Scotland and Wales, with a former PM adding his weight to the campaign, despite having prorogued Westminster himself to avoid the cash for questions furore.
Meanwhile in Scotland, when Westminster brazenly usurps and demeans the Popular Sovereignty of the Scottish people and threatens Scotland with lasting economic catastrophe against the will of the sovereign majority… we get three years of tumbleweed blowing around the streets.
Clootie
5 years ago
Defo
We were not biting, responding or engaging. We were mocking – quite different.
galamcennalath
5 years ago
Boris adopting the feet-too-far-apart power stance there. The pair wee coo looks terrified, perhaps it heard what happened to the Burlingdon pig.
Cubby
5 years ago
Another superb toon from the master of political toons.
defo
5 years ago
Apologies Clootie
Apart from the wags mocking those obviously out to disrupt…please stop.
I don’t mind a bit of banter Rev Stu but it’s a tad much to turn up in the morning for a read of your favourite Independence site to be greeted by some mental (Joe) calling the posters and readers of the site every insulting name his troubled lonely wee mind can think up then stick in a platitude or two hoping that’ll guarantee his not being banned for insulting more than half the population of Scotland
Then up pops another one informing us that their views have a right to be heard when actually they don’t have any rights whatsoever on a forum that’s not theirs, in the same way I don’t have rights if you don’t like something any of the rest of us might decide to write on your blog pages that could bring the kind of attention from more of these clowns
Most folk on this site are fairly reasonable people, some of us get out of hand now and again and we get a row for it
either by you or other posters to behave ourselves and generally the site is pretty well self policed in its behaviour and the better for it
These guys are not reasonable people airing reasonable views in the spirit of anything close to discourse, these guys are only here to promote British Nationalism which is the very opposite to what the rest of us in our rambling scribblings are all about given that this is an Independence site and not a British Nationalist site
As usual I enjoyed the cartoon from Chris as I always do
Clootie
5 years ago
Robin
Read your last post carefully. You cannot make one statement “Joe has the right etc” then in your next post set out who can’t. Who draws that line?
It’s the Revs site and I do not know of any rules regarding who can post NOR how others can respond to their posts. A Unionist with a valid well argued point is very welcome in my own view.
ahundredthidiot
5 years ago
Defo
Who do you think you are? – you’re not the owner of this site, you’re not my mother or my father. What you are though, is one of those fannies at the rugby who shoosh people when they jeer at the opposition kicker on his long wait and run up to slot his goal and help beat your team.
So, do me a favour, go and make a wee cuppa tea and learn to relax or I will put my fingers in my ears and go – joe, joe, joe joe, joe, joe.
Republicofscotland
5 years ago
Oh Christ, we’re about to undergo the mother of all union jackery campaigns.
Joe appears totes cool with UK democracy. Ya ken, that’s the type of democracy with dark money donations funding campaigns and where breaching electoral rules is the done thing for the establishment to lie and manipulate their way to retaining power to the detriment of the majority of the population.
Joe’s fine with those currently in power following “the rules” because their current trajectory suits his own agenda as he ain’t a fan of the EU.
For such an ardent stickler of procedure and operating and conforming to set guidelines, surprisingly Joe seems significantly less concerned that those in power broke “the rules” to get there in the first place…
defo
5 years ago
Oh dear. What were the other 99 like!
Daisy Walker
5 years ago
I love this cartoon.
Re the Cherry court case… a thought, if it is not legal for the Scottish ‘part’ of WM to be prorogued because the Queen is supposed to stand up for our Sovereignty, is it possible Boris would have to re-open Westminster in order to close down Holyrood.
Ach, probably that’s too orderly.
Most likely they’ll try for a false flag incident before then and the Queens speech on 14th Oct will just declare a State of Emergency UK wide.
Clootie
5 years ago
Defo
I agree fully that we should not engage or feed the trolls. However one day a unionist may turn up who can actually argue a logical case for the union. I have met a couple of them over the years and the debate was very worthwhile (it didn’t change my mind but I enjoyed the exchange).
I cannot recall ever encountering such a poster on wings.
Leave aside (just for a wee while) us Celts from the equation – although we have our own justifications to abjure the so-called ‘union flag’.
I can never understand why some people of colour rejoice in it, when it’s well-established that many of their ancestors suffered so much – slavery, brutality, oppression, murder to name but four – under its colours. Why even some of them (like many of our white compatriots, too) are happy to see it as some sort of fashion chic, e.g. on smart phone covers, as sunglasses, on handbags etc. etc.
I never been able to understand this.
Give me a red dragon or saltire every time.
defo
5 years ago
With you on that Clootie’ but it took less than 20 comments, and an hour after posting, and we’re off down Joe’s diversion already.
Ian B wrote recently of being tired of it all. Me too.
I come (back) below the line to be inspired and get a boost of positivity, but end up drifting away, scunnered by all the disruptors and the head cases who buy into the cybernat warrior shtick.
Drifts away…:-(
Thepnr
5 years ago
@Joe
“You people are pathetic. No, not just pathetic – dangerous, uninformed, ignorant hypocrites.”
Maybe it’s you who is out of touch, have you considered that possibility? If not, can you guess then who wrote the following article last week?
As a result, the Labour Party is now led by Jeremy Corbyn, an old-fashioned far-left socialist. And 90,000 Conservative members, whose views have become more extreme as their numbers have fallen, recently selected Boris Johnson as their new leader, and thus as the country’s new prime minister.
In doing so, they have chosen a mendacious chancer. It is no exaggeration to say that Johnson has lied his way to the top, first in journalism and then in politics. His ascent owes everything to the growing xenophobia and English nationalism that many Conservatives now espouse.
Johnson is prime minister because he has promised to deliver Brexit by the end of October, recklessly assuring the world that he will take the United Kingdom out of the European Union with or without a deal, and whatever the consequences.
It was only Chris Patten former Chairman of the Tory party and the last governor of Hong Kong and the current Chancellor of Oxford University.
He was of course one of Thatcher’s golden boys in the “glory years”. It could be YOU who is the one going around with their eyes shut, to describe you as pig ignorant would just be scratching the surface.
Sharny Dubs
5 years ago
Folks seems to me the phrase “don’t get mad, get even” applies.
Sure the system stinks, but it’s what we have to work with. So work we must.
Thepnr
5 years ago
@defo
Oops 🙂
I really wanted an opportunity to post what Chris Patten wrote, this seemed as good a time as any and Joe gave me that excuse. Anyway onwards and upwards.
mike cassidy
5 years ago
So that was the Ruth Davidson Fan Club on the streets of Govan celebrating her rejection of a green costume.
Scozzie
5 years ago
I’m not too clued up with the recent events in Glasgow, but in general, I don’t think any marching with religious undertones should be allowed in Scotland.
It’s bad enough we have sectarian issues in football; we really don’t need Scotland to succumb to political / religious sectarianism on the the streets through marching.
I say this as a catholic with Irish heritage, we are not Northern Ireland or ROI. We do not have their history, we should not bring their troubles to our land (protestant & catholic).
Scotland has enough hardships facing us in gaining independence, sectarianism on the streets will set us back massively in achieving independence.
Daisy Walker
5 years ago
Dominic Cummings has notified Conservative MPs that if they vote for the extension legislation next week, they will be “automatically deselected” before the next election via Conservative Central Office “even if their local organisations stand by them”.
Incredible.
Got this from Ian Dunt’s twitter account. Also there, a poster showing the time scale WM has to vote through – well anything really, before Queenie gives her speech. Extremely short, kind of unrealistic really given any legislation has to pass both houses.
Remember if it doesn’t get passed in both houses, its totally off the books once Queenie restarts government.
Best wishes to all on the march today – hope the rains misses you.
Proud Cybernat
5 years ago
Well, if nothing else, PoliceScotland got a wee bit of practice of things to come when they’re deployed to NI. Was that the plan?
Doug
5 years ago
Great cartoon, Chris. Oh yes it is!
Jack Murphy
5 years ago
Brilliant cartoon Chris.
The posterior flexion of Ross’s right hand
His three night stubble
The coo’s eyes resigned to it’s fate
Johnson’s Churchillian stance
Ruth storming off Stage Right
Coup/Coo
I posted this a couple of days ago but perhaps Wings will indulge me a re-post seeing it’s a Saturday.
To fill Ruth’s shoes her Tory successor MUST and WILL make the Party GREAT AGAIN !
The late Rick Mayall AKA Alan B’stard delivering a brilliant first Conference speech in Perth. [smile emoji]
” … I know its a cartoon but honestly. You people are pathetic. No, not just pathetic – dangerous, uninformed, ignorant hypocrites.”
Now that you mention, hypocrites, Joe, would you care to comment upon the hypocrisy of you claiming how a kingdom, (as in United Kingdom), can be a democracy?
In all kingdoms, (excepting the kingdom of Scotland), the monarch is legally sovereign and thus the people of all other kingdom than Scotland are therefore subjects of the monarch/crown. In Scotland the monarch is the subject of the people – that is their servant who can be legally replaced by the people.
In monarchies, Joe, the monarch’s word is law. Elizabeth Regina is legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England but not in the Kingdom of Scotland. The Kingdom of England, and so the United Kingdom, cannot therefore be a democracy.
Just to clarify, in 1688 the English parliament kept the English monarchy as legally sovereign but legally bound to delegate their sovereignty to the Parliament of England. Note – not to the people but to the parliament of England.
The Kingdom of Scotland is the one shining example of a monarchy where the monarch is the servant of the people because under the Scottish Rule of Law the people, not either the crown or the parliament, are legally sovereign.
So, Joe, how do you equate the United Kingdom as a democracy when the head of state is legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England?
Quite simply a monarchy with a legally sovereign monarch cannot possibly be a democracy.
Don’t you get it, Joe? When a voter in the English Kingdom votes in a candidate as an MP they select someone to represent the English monarch but when a Scot votes in an MP that MP represents the electorate.
That is why an MP under English law must legally swear an oath of allegiance to the crown but every Scottish MP has the choice to make a solemn affirmation instead.
You are a charlatan, Joe, and you are everything that term implies.
Capella
5 years ago
@ Joe – you are either very confused or trying to confuse us. The people who are funding transactivism and manipulation of elections through data harvesting are the same people i.e. right wing American billionaires. They do it for the same reason i.e. money. It makes them obscenely rich.
It is nothing to do with left wing activism.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@Clootie says: 31 August, 2019 at 8:41 am:
” … An added bonus Chrie, Joe is upset!”
Ah! Clootie, but Joe is of a kind that is permanently upset.
Rather in the same class as the rioters in Glasgow as reported in what passes for news in Scotland. Joe stands for democracy while also swearing allegiance to the parliament of England Westminster which is legally delegated by the monarchy of England as, “The Crown”.
Thing is a state cannot be a democracy and a monarchy at the same time unless, as in Scotland, the monarch is not legally sovereign but the Queen of England is legally sovereign thus people like Joe, (and the OO), who are loyalists are hypocrites by claiming the United Kingdom is a democracy.
Effijy
5 years ago
I’ve been trying to see pictures of the Persons, as the Police spokesmen
Chose to call them, who took criminal actions against a planned and permitted
March through Glasgow.
How very strange that virtually all footage from all sources seems to have no close up pictures
Of hundreds of Extreme right wing fascists throwing flares, causing breach of the peace,
Threatening behaviour, inciting violence and immobilising Glasgow’s transport infrastructure.
Why are the police just looking at them as this prevailed?
Are the Orange Rangers supporters suggesting that no flute bands should be allowed to march
On Glasgow streets or are they proposing it’s for the Orange Order only?
The decent policemen in danger due to the violent protesters trying to stop the march
Deserve better from their corrupt bosses further up the ranks.
Find them, jail them and make examples of them!
Doug
5 years ago
Definitely seeing an increase in posts declaring they are strongly pro-indy for Scotland but vehemently anti-EU. Not just in WoS but in other pro-indy websites also. A clear tactical move by internet britnats.
They’re still clutching at straws though. I mean, who in their right minds wants to agree with EU-hating British nationalist extremists in England?
Auld Rock
5 years ago
If we end up with a NO DEAL BREXIT that’ll be the only coo to be seen on NE farms once populated with fine Aberdeen Angus beef on the hoove.
Ghillie
5 years ago
Chris, you have a lovely heart for hilarity 🙂
Especially when the darkest moments in our lives are unfolding in front of us.
Proud Cybernat@12.15
That is my thinking also , this march got permission from Glasgow City Council , the police would be asked if they had any concerns about it going ahead , obviously they had none , so who are the numpties that thought this was ever going to be a walk on the park in Govan !.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@Joe says: 31 August, 2019 at 9:01 am:
@ Clootie
” … A large group of people (including political leaders) are talking about physically occupying/overturning parliament, in the face of a democratically held referendum, while demanding that their democratic rights be respected.”
Joe, unless you can prove otherwise, and you cannot, the United Kingdom and it’s parliament cannot possibly be a democracy. As your entire argument is centred upon the Westminster parliament being democratic then your argument fails.
I’ll prove the United Kingdom is not democratic for you yet again.
1 – The Queen of England, under English law, is legally sovereign.
2 – A sovereign monarch’s word is law and under English law the sovereign monarch must legally delegate her/his sovereign powers to the parliament of England.
3 – So when a person under English law votes for a candidate to be an MP then they are voting for someone to be a delegate for the monarch’s sovereignty.
4 – a legally sovereign monarchy cannot be democratic.
Can you disprove any of the above points, Joe? If not your whole argument fails.
Everything you have claimed is dependent upon the United Kingdom being a democracy but the very word kingdom proves that the United Kingdom cannot be a democracy.
Here’s more proof for you. MPs must, by law, swear an oath, of loyalty to the monarch, (or affirm their loyalty).
The Police must all do the same as must the armed forces and the security services and even the Civil Service. If charged with a crime a suspect is tried in court and the case is titled Someone vs The Crown.
Every Act of Parliament must bear the royal signature to become law.
A monarchy cannot also be a democracy – The United Kingdom is legally undemocratic. So all your arguments are mince.
Socrates MacSporran
5 years ago
Much as I hate to criticise Mr Cairns, I feel he has got it wrong here.
Received wisdom is that, rather being the front end of a pantomime coo, ‘SNP Gain” Thompson is a horse’s arse.
Thepnr
5 years ago
I’m sure you’re aware that there are protests going on around the UK over Johnson’s proroguing of parliament. The one in London seems to be gaining a bit of momentum.
Just found footage of last nights loyalist riots that have not
Been edited by the UK Media or the Police.
The vast majority are all dressed in black so indicating it
Was pre planned and co-ordinated.
The Police tried to push the crowd back of the main road
And I can see policemen being struck by fists, having missiles
Thrown at them and aggressors singing out the Billy Boys in their
Faces and yet no arrests appear to have been made???
By taking no action, I suggest these thugs are now confident
That these actions are acceptable and free from any repercussion.
Will they have any fears about doing all this tomorrow and perhaps
Racking it up a notch or two ?
I’m not Catholic nor a Celtic supporter or anti anyone who conducts themselves
Reasonably and conducts themselves with respect for their fellow citizens!
Terry callachan
5 years ago
Hey JOE….I agree with you about the Brexiteers getting their brexit , I am steadfastly against brexit but I agree with you that the vote was in favour of brexit.
I have to say that when the brexit vote took place I did not think about Scotland voting to remain and England voting to leave I just assumed that the remain vote would win easily.
It was only once I was able to see that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain and England to leave that the problem sunk in nevertheless I agree with you JOE Brexiteers won that vote so brexit should happen and there is no point people arguing that Scotland and NI should be allowed to remain because we all knew it was a UK wide vote at the time of the vote.
I am very strongly of the opinion that Scotland should have a Scottish independence referendum whenever it chooses because the SNP were elected on the basis that if Scotland was dragged out of the EU because England voted for brexit a Scottish independence referendum would be held.
I see you are taking a pounding from the usual bunch on here JOE but as was said in an earlier post none of us own this website so you are free to hold your opinion and if I were you continue to argue your stance .
Only weakness resorts to insults and usually there is no reasoning with them so it’s tempting to do the same and resort to insults as well but I’ve decided to avoid that having experienced what you are experiencing and it certainly feels better to just state your opinion and reply to any insults etc with good manners and reason.
Ghillie
5 years ago
RepublicofScotland @ 9.52 am
Thankyou for posting the link to The National article on Steven Barclay’s insane move to block Scottish civil servants (and presumably all other Devolved and British civil servants) from attending EU meetings way before exit from the EU has actually taken place.
What exactly and why are these civil servants being blocked from hearing and having a say in?
Surely NOW all of Scotland’s fisher folk and farmers and foresters will see that their interests have been binned!
Indeed were binned long since by the Unionist government who NEVER saw them as anything other than THEIR milk cow.
Coos again.
ahundredthidiot
5 years ago
Defo @11:31
The other 99 were just like you Defo – wrong.
I was right once and now I think I’m a genius…..
(maybe I was a wee bit harsh on you earlier – apologies for that)
robertknight
5 years ago
Perhaps last night’s riots were in reality just a training exercise for those in Police Scotland destined to be detached to the PSNI. Should have ‘Kettled’ the Orcs then nicked every one of them.
Daisy Walker
5 years ago
Very difficult to make arrests during a riot. That enquiry and prosecution has, from a purely practical reason, to come on a later date. CCTV evidence and identification of perps is therefore essential.
You can join the EU and you can leave it freely, what the British Nationalists problem is they still want the benefits of membership of the club without paying the subs for it
You don’t get to keep using the gym if you don’t pay for it
The UK Union however is different, Scotland doesn’t pay a sub for this membership because all Scotland’s money is removed before we get it and the UK Union decide how much they want to subtract of Scotland’s money before they allow Scotland to have some of it returned
The UK Union spend what they want on whatever they decide is good for them then they borrow money from themselves to pay it back plus interest which they then add to the subraction of Scotland’s own money whether the money spent by the UK is on Scotland’s behalf or not because Scotland is treated as part of a whole country as opposed to a partner country in it’s own right
This is then not a Union of countries but a monopoly of one country over others dictating law finance culture and governance
So then how do you leave a Union that dictates you’re not a Union when it comes to the decision of leaving that Union that is in effect a Union by popular title and acclaim only
It’s a bit like calling your house a name like maybe Dunrobbin or The Arches when of course neither of these names may literally mean you were a robber or you have actual Arches on your house, it just means that’s a name you call something and in actuality is just a postcode so the postie knows where to drop your letters off
Scotland in this UK Union is treated as a postal address and depending where you live in Scotland you may be charged more for this delivery service
Terms and conditions apply
Terry callachan
5 years ago
It’s clear that the policy , referred to by the police commander , of allowing peaceful marches as allowed by the law of the land , is ineffective because these marches are not peaceful.
Orange order marches are not peaceful because they upset people and even though those people do not confront the marchers it is clear that these marches are in no way peaceful.
Now we are seeing the orange order people attacking the Irish republican marchers in Glasgow and the question asked is why are Irish republican marchers allowed to march in Scotland ?
The thing is these Irish republican marchers are folk who live in Scotland .
The question also needs to be asked why are people who live in Scotland and are in orange order flute bands allowed to travel to Northern Ireland to take part in marches over there, it’s certainly causing disruption and anger that they are allowed to march through catholic housing estates in Northern Ireland .
These marchers, on both sides are causing a breach of the peace and worse it’s time for the law to recognise and accept this and ban them from marching in public places.
Let them march in unpopulated areas at 7am or 8am on a Sunday where they will not upset others or ban them completely.
Thepnr
5 years ago
This is just gobsmacking from Steve Barclay Secretary of State for Brexit.
The car industry’s ‘just in time’ supply chains rely on fluid cross-Channel trade routes. >1,100 trucks filled with car parts cross seamlessly from EU into UK each day. We need to start talks now on how we make sure this flow continues if we leave without a deal.
Whit! He has only just realised that now??? We’re screwed.
Dan
5 years ago
@Doug at 1.01pm
Aye, you’re not wrong. It is permeating through to wider society too, though generally easily countered.
Various folk I’ve had conversations with over the past few weeks have come out with the most bizarre and tedious complaints about the smallest of EU regulations which in general are for the greater good ie. Health, safety, welfare related matters.
These folk seem myopic to focus on their one wee bugbear and want to leave the “bad EU” because of it, while the bigger picture shows they will then be under the rule of a UK government that certainly seems intent on trashing society in numerous ways which will have way more impact on their lives than a solitary EU reg. eg. Access to free at point of need health services, raising retirement age, etc.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@defo says: 31 August, 2019 at 12:00 pm:
” … Ian B wrote recently of being tired of it all. Me too.
I come (back) below the line to be inspired and get a boost of positivity, but end up drifting away, scunnered by all the disruptors and the head cases who buy into the cybernat warrior shtick.”
Aye! Well, defo, get this – you do not cure anything by ignoring it. If you have symptoms of illness, like perhaps cancer, the very worse thing to do is to ignore those bad symptoms. The best thing is to face the symptoms and deal with them.
Contrary to the common belief these people are not trolls for trolls have no real motive they just troll to annoy. Those coming here to Wings are not here to just annoy, they have an agenda and will not just go away if ignored.
Douglas
5 years ago
Slightly off topic, what is the process for choosing a new leader for the Scottish Conservatives? Is it the same sort of long process as the UK tory leadership, if so then I will probably lose the will to live!!!
A series of tweets by Marc Owen Jones on the weaponisation of Twitter. Very interesting, and helps answer the question ‘is propaganda a war?’ Absolutely.
“[Thread] I analysed around 13,000 retweets of Boris Johnson’s tweet that read “The referendum result must be respected. We will leave the EU on 31st October. #LeaveOct31″. He tweeted this twice, once on 15th Aug and again on 27th. The following is what I found: #StopTheCoup”
According to Jackson Carlaw you will have to wait till 2020 for a new leader .
Proud Cybernat
5 years ago
Our status as being, once again, an independent nation state. It’s coming. You can smell it in the air. It’s within touching distance.
We’re almost there folks. No taking any feet off the gas tho.
Thepnr
5 years ago
The chickens are coming home to roost as the reality of a no deal Brexit starts to become apparent.
A ‘Brexit bonanza’ for UK fishing? That’s a fishy tale with an unhappy ending
The industry may become one of the starkest examples no-deal folly, with those dependent on EU markets facing devastation…
A myth has been propagated by Brexiteers. There is a single “British fishing industry” which will benefit from reclaiming the “60/70/80% of British fish” caught by EU boats.
No, there isn’t. There are competing interests. English v Scottish; deep-sea fishing v inshore fishing; industrial v family-scale boats; fishers v processors. Some of the most vibrant, locally important and ecologically respectful parts of the UK industry have nothing to gain and everything to lose from Brexit.
They depend on shellfish, lobsters, crabs and langoustines (crayfish) that are quota-free or are overwhelmingly allocated to the UK. More than 80% is sold to the continent (mostly Spain and France). This trade has grown large because of the border-free EU single market.
Post-Brexit, trucks arriving in France with fish caught by scores of small boats will have to supply scores of “origin” and “health” documents – one for each boat and each catch. Traders will have to find UK local inspectors in working hours to verify the origin of the seafood and vets to certify its quality.
Another Brexit fantasy of the forecast boom for British fishing has been exposed as just another Brexit lie. Somehow I think then when the reality lands on Brexits biggest supporters they’re not going to like it one little bit.
The voters that asked for Brexit will just have to suck it up like good little sheep. We can make other plans and that gets more likely by the day.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@Douglas says:31 August, 2019 at 2:06 pm:
” … Slightly off topic, what is the process for choosing a new leader for the Scottish Conservatives? Is it the same sort of long process as the UK tory leadership, if so then I will probably lose the will to live!!!”
I think they draw straws, Douglas, and the one with the shortest straw is forced to become leader.
Well you’ve got Carlaw who believes he’s a Conservative but dim then you’ve got Tomkins who is a careerist say anything do anything to advance his career person
I say person when I refer to Tomkins because he’s not a politician, in fact he’s barely human he’s a rabid ladder climber and he’ll crawl up anybody’s backside to get there, so on balance the next Tory leader in Scotland will likely be Tomkins because if Carlaw gets in his way Tomkins will move him out of the way with some snidey maneuver, and the nasty right wingers will back him up
So yes Boris Tomkins for Scottish Tory leader (oh he’ll defo change his name to Boris)
Abulhaq
5 years ago
Johnson & allies have indeed staged a ‘coup’, he has effectively run rings around the opposition who out manoeuvred have thrown a collective hissy fit.
Given the UK does not possess a formal written constitution, he has done nothing unconstitutional, he’s just played a rather clever hand.
Who are the bumbling idiots now?
Brexit probably with no deal awaits and the shocking possibility that Johnson might win a workable majority were there to be a GE is scaring the proverbial out of the buttoned up, self righteous matrons on the margins.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
Even more O/T:-
Ian Blackford from YouTube less than 20 minutes ago:-
Surely Govan last night was just proof that the Ulsterisation of Scottish Politics which was begun by (T)Ruthless has now moved into the next phase… maybe she doesn’t like what is coming down the line towards us and that is why she has stood down.
James Kelly should hang his head in shame and fingers crossed for the match today- Police will have their work cut out trying to put this genie back in the bottle and it’s possible NO marches will be the outcome.
Seems that each day is bringing a new ‘shock’ to ‘British’ politics and I wonder just how much of it is pre-planned and authorised by powers held elsewhere.
We knew they would throw everything at us and it has to be done in a way that seems natural so as not to arouse any suspicions.
How do they stop all these pesky Indy marches – easy, Govan last night has just demonstrated their tactics perfectly.
Auld bob, @1:18 i thought you more than most would know that Royal Navy Personnel do not swear loyalty to the Monarch.
Republicofscotland
5 years ago
Thanks to the unionist branch acolytes at Holyrood, sectarian violence in Scotland has raised its ugly profile. Apparently a Mr Fraser, has retweeted a link to the sash.
I see posts above suggesting AbiesAlba (as was) as Scottish Tory “leader”….?
In 2014 it’d be beyond parody to have someone pretending to be a gay Slovenian pouring scorn on indyref1 becoming Scots Tory leader but we’ve long since departed down some sort of rabbit blackhole in political terms.
We live in “interesting times”, gods help us all 🙁
Vestas
5 years ago
You can work out the “Caesar” autoedit yourselves, probably saves me from a court case anyway 😀
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
Doug @ 13:01,
Well observed there. It was happening before, but it’s being amplified now. Trying to peel off the dwindling Yes-Leavers.
But it’s becoming ever more obvious by the day that to be a Leaver is to subscribe to a BritNat power grab in which we in Scotland will all be the rear end of pantomime cows if we don’t get out PDQ.
Scratch anyone who rants on about the “EU dictatorship” and you’ll discover someone who has no problem whatever with blocking Scotland from leaving the UK. And we had one of them on here early off-topic rudely calling us “hypocrites”?!
The difficulty with the Independence marches is that we’re all Catholics
We’ve got Protestant Catholics, Catholic Catholics, Hindu Catholics, Muslim Catholics, Black Catholics, Brown Catholics, White Catholics, there are even some Chinese Catholics now
So you can see how the British Nationalist sectarian bigots can get confused by all us Multi Denominational Catholics
If you’re not one of them, you’re a Catholic, they don’t do discrimination it’s too complicated
robertknight
5 years ago
Dr Jim
I humbly request to be recognised as an Atheist Catholic.
cirsium
5 years ago
@republicofscotland, 9.52am
Re: Stephen Barclay’s decision not to allow Scottish civil servants to attend EU meetings From now on we will only go to the meetings that really matter, reducing attendance by over half and saving hundreds of hours.
So, agriculture and fishing don’t matter to the UK government?
Jockanese Wind Talker
5 years ago
Time the Scottish Government start acting as if we are already independent and turn up at these EU meetings to represent Scotlands interests.
“Scottish officials regularly attend EU meetings about devolved matters in Brussels – agriculture and fishing are the big ones – but the UK is saying as the member state they won’t send officials unless it’s about major national issues such as security.”
So not UK Civil Servants in place of Scottish ones but NO CIVIL SERVANTS AT ALL!!
Dan
5 years ago
I’m a Catholic, I was indoctrinated at a young age and through my life I’ve worshipped loads of the furry meowing critters, Tabby, Ginger, Tortoiseshell, Persian, Abyssinian tree climbing, you name it, I’ve stroked it.
We had so many cats that at one point I believe two kittens went to Muriel Gray, but they were too wild so we got them back.
Probably for the best as she’d most likely have set fire to them…
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
Thepnr @ 14:23,
Well said. There are those who have a far better handle on this than me, but I understand that the West Coast fisherfolk have in any case always had a rather different outlook to the EU issue than the NE “Cosa Nostra”.
A proto-independent Scotland will no doubt need and wish to enter negotiations for EU membership in its own right, rather than as a neglected and exploited coat-tail of England, and it’s just fine by me that the people of scotland (all the people) get a say in accepting or rejecting it, f that’s what it takes.
But if we wait too long, there won’t be (eg.) any native West Coast fishers or processors left to take any advantage of whatever transpires.
That’s the danger of delaying too long. It can create “facts on the ground” that override all the theories and hopes. That’s what the BritNat-Leaver coup is ultimately all about.
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
Dan @ 15:45,
I think you mean Cat-a-holic, Dan, no? =laugh=
(These damned spell checkers. =grin=)
Lenny Hartley
5 years ago
Dr Jim, ive been discriminated , im a Pastarafarian Catholic.
Thepnr
5 years ago
I think some people are their own worst enemies. Here’s an example of muddled thinking (in my opinion) from and article for tomorrows Observer.
“Mark Wallace, a former soldier, can’t see the problem with proroguing parliament. “It’s not anti-democratic at all,” he insists. He voted Leave but he’s particularly keen to get out of the EU as soon as possible because, he says, the medicines he needs are becoming increasingly difficult to get. But won’t that be a much greater problem if the UK leaves without a deal?
“No,” he says, arguing that the country will then be free to make whatever arrangements it wants.”
What can you say in response to that? Someone that believes Brexit will make it easier to get the medicines he needs. What can he possibly think is preventing him from getting them now while in the EU?
There’s an awful lot of muddled thinking like that out there. Personally, I blame Nicola sturgeon and the SNP!
A few short vids (less than 2 mins each) uploaded to YT today.
Apologies if they have been posted before but thought it’d be handy to have links in one place.
OT if you want to know how and why Brexit is being driven, the movie Vice is an interesting incite into the way the far right operates. It’s the story of Dick Cheney’s rise to absolute power.
A few years ago I would have doubted its relevance to the UK, however recent events are all from the far right ‘grab power and make money’ instructions manual.
Tatu3
5 years ago
What could Westminster do if the Scottish civil servants just turned up to the EU meetings? Sack them all? Lock them up?
So they should go. Stand up for scotland
Andy smith
5 years ago
Dr Jim
Just to really confuse them ..I’m an ex-catholic Catholic !
galamcennalath
5 years ago
Dr Jim says:
If you’re not one of them, you’re a Catholic
It’s true. The dark fringe of extreme militant ‘religion’ is Scotland sees the world as being one of them, or not, and not defaults to Catholic.
I remember being in a student flat many many decades ago at a party. There was a large poster of Christ of Saint John of the Cross by Salvador Dalí which hangs in Kelvingrove. Somehow a non student gate crasher found himself in front of the poster. He went berserk and totally lost the plot believing himself to have become isolated it a nest of Catholics!
The poster wasn’t there for any particular religious reasons, just celebrating one of Glasgow’s great art treasures. I doubt if anyone present knew who was, or wasn’t, Catholic. But to this guy, it was red rag to a bull. Fortunately it is one of the few times I have ever witnessed up close and personal just how totally deranged some Scots’ think can be.
Really, you want to just stay away from them!
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@robertknight says: 31 August, 2019 at 3:36 pm:
” … I humbly request to be recognised as an Atheist Catholic”
Aye! Robert, but is nobody going to speak up for the Agnostic Catholics?
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@cirsium says: 31 August, 2019 at 3:38 pm:
” … So, agriculture and fishing don’t matter to the UK government?”
Perhaps they plan to revive the WWII, “Dig for Victory”, campaign?
Firstly, it fails to mention the Court of Session case. But hey hoe, it’s from the London centric Guardian.
That said, none of the options seem very likely!
Clootie
5 years ago
The main weapon of the unionist (after division) is to turn people away from politics to create low turnouts. The control of Political choices and decisions are how they win.
How do we win! The same way Ghandi did – you keep challenging their legitimacy. Day after Day. You just keep going.
I come to Wings to be assured other like souls are doing that.
I go to AUOB marches to be surrounded with that positive vibe.
They want politics to be boring. It often is but it will always decide the World that your children will grow up in.
Frank Gillougley
5 years ago
Dr Jim – I like it.
But whitaboot about the anarchist catholics?
Leavers voted for Brexit in order to reassert the sovereignty of the UK Parliament; a Parliament which is now going to be suspended at the whim of an unelected Prime Minister and the approval of a non-elected Head of State, so its Members will not be able to discuss how that (alleged) reassertion of sovereignty is going to affect them.
Correct?
Shamocracy – Disunited Kingdumb style.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@Robert J. Sutherland says:31 August, 2019 at 3:45 pm:
” … That’s the danger of delaying too long. It can create “facts on the ground” that override all the theories and hopes. That’s what the BritNat-Leaver coup is ultimately all about.”
Yes but there is one wee problem about all that. Who is the best judge of when is the right time and when is it too late?
Should we trust the First Minister of Scotland’s parliament, The leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party or someone commenting on someone else’s blog on the internet?
Gee! That’s a difficult decision for a person wanting to decide who is best placed to know what’s going on at the cutting edge of the political scene in Scotland?
It’s a hilarious state of affairs this anti everybody who isn’t one of them religions when they all go on holiday to nice warm Catholic countries and wander around their churches quite happily viewing all the murals architecture and stained glass and they don’t try to kill all those folks
Of course it could be that it doesn’t occur to them that the same folk serving them their dinners and drinks and cleaning their hotel rooms, entertaining them, flying the planes that took them to these nice places are not staffed by the same people as *THEM*
As we’ve seen by this thread alone we’ve added some denominations Atheist Catholics, Agnostic Catholics and no doubt there’ll be many more, and it kinda makes you think that these anti everybody Catholic haters are in the extreme minority and are in fact No Rapeepel at all
It’s also funny that if you’re a football playing Catholic or indeed the Catholic manager who plays for their team you get a free pass for the day
But woe betide that Catholic Manager or player should he not perform to the satisfaction of the Anti Them religion then the free pass to *Them* is withdrawn and that Catholic becomes a Catholic Catholic again, and goes straight on to the hate list
The rules in the Anti Catholic religion are simple, if in doubt treat everybody as if they’re not them
These ideas must come from no religious text i’ve ever seen, read, or heard of in existence ever, leading me to believe something has gone wrong with the theory of evolution in the case of this group of people
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@Thepnr says: 31 August, 2019 at 4:11 pm:
” … Personally, I blame Nicola sturgeon and the SNP!”
Oh! Why not? Seems like almost everyone else in Scotland, leavers, remainers, don’t knows and everything in between blames her as well – another one on the blamers side will hardly make any difference in the final count.
Bobp
5 years ago
Clootie 4.59pm spot on clootie. When im a bit despondent thinking that does anyone in Scotland care about indy.once i step of that train at glasgow central from euston, head for kelvingrove park, see those saltires ,.atmosphere , and ever growing crowd, i know i am with likeminded people, and i am reassured that our nation will one day be free.
manandboy
5 years ago
For the record: In Scotland, there is only one kind of sectarianism – the anti-Catholic variety. It’s been that way since the Protestant Reformation in Scotland in the 16th Century.
The Unionist media is compelled to distort this truth, which it does by means of the ‘both sides are as bad as the other’ meme, and by conflating religious belief and football rivalry.
The English Ruling Class is of course, more than happy to maintain Scotland’s so-called ‘sectarian divide’ because a divided electorate is a defeated electorate, when elections come around.
Then, add the all pervasive British anti-Irish racism and the English Establishment can sit back and relax. Power over Scotland – sorted.
Independence is not an option. It’s absolutely essential.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@Tatu3 says: 31 August, 2019 at 4:30 pm:
What could Westminster do if the Scottish civil servants just turned up to the EU meetings?
Well they could stop their pay for being AWOL, sack them then refuse them welfare benefits for making themselves unemployed.
Bobp
5 years ago
Manandboy 5.21pm never a truer word.
Bobp
5 years ago
Dan 3.45pm. I’m an agnostic catholic Dan, and I’ve stroked a few pussies in my time. I like persians.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@galamcennalath says: 31 August, 2019 at 4:57 pm:
” … Firstly, it fails to mention the Court of Session case.”
They do not need to be London centric to not tell it correctly. Any Scottish rag I read reports the Scots Judge as having refused the request when the truth is the judge just refused the interim interdict but left it to be decided at the previously stated day.
chicmac
5 years ago
Brilliant cartoon.
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
Robert Peffers @ 17:07,
Fair comment. But happily this isn’t a fascist statelet with an autocrat for leader (despite occasional BritNat calumnies), so the views of its citizens, as expressed freely in public, have to count for something as well, no?
Otherwise how could anyone in a position to influence matters know the true state of public opinion? (They might even be misled into thinking we were still asleep instead of being fully ready for decisive action.)
Weechid
5 years ago
I was going to say that hes the wrong end of the cow – but maybe it’s safer for the other end that way.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@Welsh Sion says: 31 August, 2019 at 5:06 pm:
” … Let me see if I’ve got it right.”
Did you forget the wee bit that the United Kingdom couldn’t be a democracy in the first place as the Queen of the Kingdom of England is legally sovereign and a legal sovereign’s word is law.
So even although the monarchy, in 1688, had to legally delegate their sovereign powers to the parliament of England to administer on the sovereign’s behalf you cannot have a democracy and a sovereign monarchy at the same time. So you are correct Westminster’s democracy is indeed shambolic.
Juteman
5 years ago
manandboy 5.21pm
A perfect description of where we are at.
British rule uses sons of the manse like Broon to keep it going.
I wonder what secrets the establishment know about The Broon?
galamcennalath
5 years ago
Robert Peffers says:
interim interdict
If they do mention interim interdict, it’s qualified as “an interim interdict is what Scots call an injunction”, or similar construct.
Why not “an interim interdict which is called an injunction in England”?
This matters. It’s not pedantic. It’s one of their little tricks. They present the English version as the default, and the Scots version as different/non standard.
They will usually avoid highlighting difference, however if forced to, they adopt English=normal but Scottish=deviant language.
Hamish100
5 years ago
robertknight says:
31 August, 2019 at 3:36 pm
Dr Jim
I humbly request to be recognised as an Atheist Catholic.
Naaaa, yir eyebrows are shifting the gither when ye speak. Definitely an agnostic catholic.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@Robert J. Sutherland says:31 August, 2019 at 5:46 pm:
” … so the views of its citizens, as expressed freely in public, have to count for something as well, no?”
Oh! Come on, Robert, you know very well that I have answered that one till I’m yellow in the face , (I’d have said blue but after those riots … … ),
But I digress.
In the first place we do not have just one administration interested in what the people of Scotland think, we have two, and they are in a political war with each other. Thus to use an open forum to be in any way critical to one administration is to, at very least, boost the moral of the other.
I have also pointed out that airing grievance against one administration on a public forum is not likely to make the slightest impression and further pointed out that every SNP MEP, MP, MSP and councillor is contactable via email, telephone and snail-mail and their contact details readily available.
Not to mention that anyone can join the SNP, attend branch meetings and each one has the same number of votes as Nicola Sturgeon herself. Anyone, with a seconder, can raise a matter at branch meetings and that matter must be recorded in the minutes and dealt with. All of which will gain notice whereas dripping constantly on a blog will only assist the opposition and they will, without doubt, act upon it. Westminster spends a fortune upon security services for just those purposes. Some of which I’d warrant you have not even heard about.
Wings is the best known Scottish political blog on the internet. Do you really imagine that the Westminster security services doesn’t have it under close surveillance?
I am regularly accused of slavishly following the SNP but the truth is there is probably no one else on Wings that has, over many years, clashe4d with the SNP hecht heid ains. I didn’t do it on public forums, newspapers, TV station or Radio phone ins.
The fact remains that every one on Wings who is critical of the SNP or even states the SNP are doing nothing is music to the ears of the Unionists. So sad when the critic could email Nicola Sturgeon directly.
” … Otherwise how could anyone in a position to influence matters know the true state of public opinion?
Have I not just explained how here just once more and explained it countless other times on Wings before?
I read wings and sometimes there are more critics of the FM/SG/SNP on here that I can find on the Scotsman, Daily Mail and Express combined. If it can depress a die hard like myself how do you imagine it affects a disenchanted Labour voter looking for something better to support? Hell! After reading Wings some days they would instantly go off and support the LibDems or even Tories. And don’t say I have not said all this countless times before.
AnneMarie D
5 years ago
Sectarianism has always been the classic bogeyman. Billy Connolly got it right for my parents’ generation. It was a fact that they were told an independent Scotland would be a protestant country and they would end up like the Catholics in Norther Ireland. I was young but I remember clearly my dad saying that is why he voted against Devolution in 1979, nevermind independence.
At some point this has all changed, maybe it is the Union flag all over Better Together and the simple fact that to be an independence supporter is to be against the mere existence of a British state. I welcome that but it leaves a legacy of desperation. I was brought up in Glasgow and we simply never questioned the reality that the Orange Lodge could do as they please.
My only gratitude to the Catholic church is that I am now a fully fledged atheist so I have no drum to beat for the idiots that still think that is an identity worth protecting. However, I know without a shadow of a doubt that the sad,but diminishing, “persons” who will riot under a Union flag, come what may, will not ever ever ever ever be persuaded that they are on the wrong side of history.
They will try to intimidate us and make us think that we might be opening up a can of worms in pursuing independence. Remember one thing. Loyalism does simply not know what it is loyal to. If they riot against the police as they have done in Northern Ireland then they riot against the forces of the crown. We know that makes no sense.
The Scottish police are not political. They know that to go in hard will only fuel the flames. Let’s show them up for what they are – loyal to f***k all. For the next round of Orange matches we should ask the police how we will arrange counter demos and maybe then they will put a stop to this.
The one thing the Intelligence services fear is other people’s intelligence
Bobp
5 years ago
Robert peffers 6.52pm. Sometimes you call a spade a spade Bob, but your posts are ones I always read, and always on the money. So keep on posting.
Lenny Hartley
5 years ago
Forced myself to watch both the BBC and STV news, the riot in Glasgow is all Glasgow Councils fault or those kafolics. Not one person Interviewed in the street or of the Unionist Parties mentioned that ‘The counter Demonstration” was by morons of an unionist/British Nationalist persuasion.
On another subject , The good news is that our wee (actually well attended) Pro EU Demo today in Brodick , I spoke to several people whom I have never met before, One shall we say Mature lady whilst being a Yesser had never attended a March or Demo in her life , a few others had never attended an event organised by the local SNP branch before and most surprising to me was a local who I unfriended on facebook as he was continually sniping at the SNP Government and/or Independence. He was not attending the Demo but was passing by , he asked what the demo was about and told me that he was now voting for yes and said the referendum could not come soon enough.
Things are moving.
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
galamcennalath @ 18:09,
It’s because they see themselves as addressing a purely English audience. Most of the time we only really exist in their minds as a kind of theoretical construct. Existing in principle but not really there as actual listeners.
Spend any time listening to R4 (or the English Home Service as I have taken to calling it) and you are left in no doubt about the tangible (yet entirely self-unaware) insularity. I could give loads of trivial yet telling examples, eg. introducing a reform of their divorce law with an “our” prefix.
If anything it has become more pronounced of late, as if the broadcasters have already tacitly accepted that we are gone, and have dropped even a pretence of trying.
Bobp
5 years ago
Along with dr Jim, manandboy, Daisy Walker, thepnr, effijy, and many others to numerous to mention.
Bobp
5 years ago
Should have said great posts from these folks on wings.
Cubby
5 years ago
BBC Reporting Scotland
The chancer that is the former FM of Scotland Lord MacConnell turns up stating that we need strong political leadership to put an end to sectarianism and we need to work together.
“Let’s get together and put sectarianism in the dustbin of history.” Says the Lord.
That would be very nice. Pity his own party was involved in removing the OBF law which has certainly helped spike sectarian/thuggery behaviour in recent months. Not a word of the removal of this law by the Britnat media. You would think it never existed.
What exactly did the good Lord do about the problem when he was FM? Britnats have some brassnecks
Dan
5 years ago
@Robert J. Sutherland at 3:48 pm
Pfft! Pedant. Next you’ll be telling me “dogmatic” doesn’t describe the perpetual process of getting a new dog each time the the current one expires.
A process not dissimilar to the never ending Labour Branch Office in Scotchland leadership circus. Just watch, as soon as what’s his name… eh… Ryvita Laxative? goes, there will be another. Whack-a-mole stylée.
@Bobp at 5:35 pm
Easy tiger?
Things are getting fairly heated on a global scale with the few psychopathic arsehole factions trying to win the end game of monopoly, but we may be witnessing the slow awakenings of the catatonic agnostic pacifists.
Truly a potentially massive (voting) force of yet undetermined capabilities, that have patiently remained stealthily dormant, just waiting for the right moment to mobilise and unleash their ire on those few that have caused so many issues for so many people and our planet.
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
Dan @ 19:25,
Heh, heh. Touché!
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
Dan @ 19:25,
Yeh, given the turnover of NorthBritLab leaders, “Laxative” seems a very appropriate generic name. Good call. Hardly worth remembering the real ones these days.
By the time it finally gets round to (their) James Kelly, the whole world will know the northern branch office is fatally “holed below the waterline”. Even El Gordo will know it. (That’s assuming of course there are any left by then.)
Sandy
5 years ago
Gordie Broon didn’t say who he was talking to in Brussels. Was it a janitor or tea lady?
Republicofscotland
5 years ago
The ultra unionist Jack McConnell pops up on the unionist STV news offering his help to fight sectarianism.
Tell you what Mr Ermine Vermin, if you want to help,get back the £1.5 billion quid of Scotland’s money that you handed back to Westminster in exchange for yourknighthood.
Thepnr
5 years ago
@Robert J. Sutherland
If things work out for Labour as they’re currently looking in Scotland they’ll be back down to a single MP, I’d prefer none but can accept just the one.
As far as Rupert Lush is concerned I doubt he’ll be around to stand again in 2021 and if he does I’d hope that a new Independence party formed by the Rev will make a big dent in his MSP’s too. Can’t be long now before they continually poll less than 10% of the vote in Scotland.
Well done to the Labour “big beasts” like James Kelly, Anas Sarwar, Jackie Baillie, Iain Gray, Johann Lamont, Neil Findlay etc. ect. ect. LOL
Liz g
5 years ago
Robert Peffers @ 6.52
I know that is your position on the subject Robert as you pointed out you’ve said so often enough.
But that’s not the whole picture.
Firstly.. There’s others who disagree,and that’s their right.
Secondly…There’s this site,which is very clear is not an SNP site,but rather a political discussion site. Not everyone here is an SNP member!
There is, as I’m sure you know and appreciate a social aspect to this site, and that by definition means that people who post also air their doubts, fears, worries and their need to vent.
The opponent’s of Independence may very well try to pick up on a chink of dissent…. but just as credible, the SNP may also be using us a weather vain of response to their actions and projections of their intentions?
Therefore,it seems to me, the best thing we can do is not drive ourselves to distraction trying to combat any of it,and just be as honest as we can warts and all.
It could just be that the SNP will get a dam sight more from our musings than the British state ever could!
They (SNP) need to know how we really feel and should be able to depend on us Wingers to say it like it is..
Thirdly…. My late daughter in law worked for the Scottish Government.Her job was to answer the emails and other correspondence on behalf of the Justice Secretary (Humsa).
He never actually saw any of them. So I cannot imagine that the arrangements are any different for the First Minister.
So an email to Nicola while worth while by volume is no a singular option!
And lastly….
While I have only a bit of an idea what went on last night,and I’m not even going to look because I don’t want to rake it all back up…. I know that, you know that you can be crotchety and you’ve claimed the right to be at your age
( nae argument there) but with rights come responsibility and that means sometimes remembering that ye are not always answering a squadie from the 77th but mibbi a Lady Winger with her own concerns venting to her Wings family. Staying factual and staying polite are not the same thing as fine well ye know,and I’m sure hurting another Winger is never your intention Robert and you have the language skills not to do so.
Remember how much patience you had with Rock?
We all wondered how you did it!
And we admired that.
Don’t lose that respect now Robert,not when we’re so close and you’ve a part to play!
Anyhoo…. I hope you are keeping well and getting geared up for the Campaign x
frogesque
5 years ago
Robert J Sutherland: I think the real one was “ExLax”
Looked like chocolate but gave you the shits. Bit like SLab.
O/t Great rally in Dunfermline today despite the weather. HOOP demo at Holyrood on Thursday 11am-5pm ish. Perth next Saturday.
Keep the pressure on.
See also there is a petition doing the rounds that wants a 2/3 majority for Indy for it to be recognised. Fuck off might be an appropriate response!
call me dave
5 years ago
Enjoyed my day at the Dunfermline march with my ‘high maintenance’
granddaughter. Weather was fine warm even.
Joined the march at the top of the New Row after we walked up the steep hill after stupidly parking near the Alhambara theatre and the Royal British Legion Club both sporting Union flags.
We were a bit puggled as we started in behind the march 🙁
However after that it was downhill all the way into the Glen.
(A few 20? Union Folk) demonstrating on the pavement to the side.
Good crowd (much higher than last time there) plenty of stalls and music from the Blue Bonnets and various singers.
Touched the Wings hairy string again (been a while) most folk I spoke to were positive although wondering what the WM will get up to next.
Couple of folk talking up for the candidates only on the list as per WoS theory. One saying that even some SNP MSP and councillors dont really understand the D’Hondt system. I nodded sagely 🙂
Counted 4 WOS flags among the flutters and plenty Saltire and Rampant Lions, even a few Unicorns and many various others including a St Georgie.
Lots of lurkers for Wings a few I talked to enjoyed the read but were not confident of expressing strong views.
Pensioners for Independence Group busy and although I am well up on most of that I got the full Monty…it felt rude to interrupt the man and lady in full flow so I was patient and took it all in.
Best part was being surrounded and ushered in by the bikers all the way from Halbeath into Dunfermline (granddaughter counted 50+) and many folk catching the sight from their posh Cherry Bank hooses too.
Donated to Wings Tent and some others and finally was rooked by my Granddaughter for a few extras…skint until tomorrow.
Great day! 🙂
Thepnr
5 years ago
@call me dave
Thanks for the excellent report, a wee bit positivity never goes amiss. Glad to hear you and the granddaughter had a great day.
I’ve seen the video at the end before and it just brought it right back how angry I was at the time, and now I’m bloody angry all over again because I felt it to be genuine but everybody dismissed it as dodgy and absolutely nothing was ever made of it
The thing is if that film was dodgy you’d have thought the authorities would have wanted to charge the individual responsible for attempting to perpetrate an electoral fraud but again nothing ever was made of it
And that’s what’s bloody dodgy
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
frogesque @ 20:28,
Ah, the “poison pill” option re-surfacing again. Predictably. It’s only too clear who is consuming ever-increasing quantities of that venerable product you mentioned!
Colin Alexander
5 years ago
Liz g
Thank you for confirming that Scottish Govt ministers rarely even see email complaints from Scottish citizens.
I have pointed out the abysmal service the Scottish Govt gives complainants on several occasions.
In my experience, unless your complaint is sent via an MSP you will receive a civil service: Piss off, we don’t want to know response. ( I paraphrase).
Send it via an MSP and the service is slightly better: your piss off, we don’t want to know response is signed by the Cabinet Secretary’s signature.
So, that’s part of the reason why, when it comes to Scottish Parliament elections, my response to voting SNP is: piss off, I don’t want to know.
I continue to support independence but, as Alex Salmond also discovered, when the boot was on the other foot, his and subsequent Scottish Govts are tainted by lack of fair investigation of complaints.
That applies to ALL public services in Scotland.
The SPSO Ombudsman, a deliberately crooked monster created by Labour and beloved by subsequent SNP Govts, is as impartial with the Scottish Establishment of public services (including the Scottish Govt) , as the Queen is when it comes to Tory Govts and the British Establishment.
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
Colin Alexander @ 22:30,
So, that’s part of the reason why, when it comes to Scottish Parliament elections, my response to voting SNP is: piss off, I don’t want to know.
Oh Colin, you are a caution. You really (truly) want an icecream but you insist in cutting off your hand before reaching out for it. =sigh=
And just “part of” the reason? The other presumably being you actually prefer one of the Nirvana splitterists or the Red/Blue/Orange Tories? (I can never make up my mind which, you dreadful shapeshifter, you!)
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@AnneMarie D says: 31 August, 2019 at 6:57 pm:
” … Sectarianism has always been the classic bogeyman.”
My old Grand dad had it right, AnneMarie D, (and he died in 1949), and spoke about both the Loyalists and the Catholics and particularly sectarianism of Glasgow Football supporters.
I had asked him why these people were always fighting each other. His reply was that if they weren’t fighting about football or religion they would have to invent something else to fight over. I do believe he was right.
Colin Alexander
5 years ago
Robert J. Sutherland
The number one reason I don’t vote SNP for Holyrood is the local SNP MSP. I was let down by him. The guy couldn’t look me in the face when he recognised me at SNP branch meetings as the same person who came to him looking for assistance as a constituent. At least he had the shame to look guilty.
My opinion of the SNP MP is the opposite. I’ve ALWAYS voted for her. The last time I voted for her, it was because of her personally, not because she’s SNP because the SNP gave me no reason to vote for them in their 2017 GE campaign.
I don’t want an SNP strong at Westminster, I want ALL Scots MPs OUT OF Westminster.
—————–
Come on SNP, give me a reason to vote for the party. Seek a mandate to dissolve the Union if an election comes before an indyref.
The Unionist Party’s manifestos could have been written on a fag packet since they were almost entirely free of anything meaningful to the electorate in Scotland.
It comprised a single battle cry attacking the most progressive and universally admired politician in Scotland Nicola Sturgeon. Stating:
” Scots are fed up being persecuted by the SNP leader who is solely intent on getting independence at any cost. As a result, Scotland is suffering hugely. The majority of Scottish voters wish to remain in the British union, despite Nicola Sturgeon’s latest demands for a Scottish referendum.”
This was entered on the internet in the form of a petition requiring a simple yes/no answer.
The signed petition would be presented to the Westminster government, by the Scottish Home Secretary for debate in the House of Commons, dependent on the number of signatures gained.
Sorry about your personal misfortune, but normal (political) service can only resume after the constitutional elephant in the room has been removed. Everything else at the moment is secondary/
Though you do illustrate en passant the danger of excessive delay: the inevitable accretion of individual discontents with an established government (no matter how good) leading to an eventual drain in support and everything that goes with it.
In the meantime though on here, you keep on “slip, sliding awaaaaay….”
Liz g
5 years ago
Colin Alexander @ 10.30
That’s no exactly what I said….
No minister in ANY Government could read all their correspondence.
That’s just simple logistics
That’s why they have staff.
That staff also makes the minister aware of anything that they need to know in regarding their correspondence,that’s what they do and they are good at it.
Especially the Scottish Government Staff,that’s why the Scottish Government are so on the ball and up to speed.
So it is worthwhile writing and, if you mibbi wrote something worthwhile…
Who knows?? every letter is read…
Nevertheless..
Thank You for the opportunity to clarify.
Terry callachan
5 years ago
To Colin Alexander …my opinion is that I set aside personal wants for the benefit of my country ,Scotland.
It’s the future of every person to come that I want Scottish independence for.
If I’m still alive when we get independence even better
All that stuff about your MSP doing you a wrong and not looking you in the eye is in my opinion the wrong way to go surely it’s the SNP you are voting for and Scotland’s freedom you are voting for and not some personal service you hoped to get from an MSP
Come on look further
If we all voted only for those things we personally benefit from or those MPs or MSPs that can do something to help us in our personal lives we would never collectively vote for the most important thing Scottish independence , we would always have our vote deflected by some personal grievance
Clootie
5 years ago
Those who have been on Wings for many years know my Ulster roots. My family are Protestant bigots deeply rooted in N/Ireland
I just want to state that I support the unification of Ireland every bit as much as I support Scottish Independence.
The march in support of Irish unification was legal, fully authorised and peaceful. Their march was attacked by violent bigots. The same people who attacked those marchers rights are the same people who attack our claim to self determination in Scotland.
The media are spinning the “riot” for all they are worth and the word Republican is being over used in an attempt to create division. If they attack this group then an Independence March will be their next target.
Last year I obtained my Irish passport. I am proud of it and I only hope the citizens of my current home have a fraction of the guts the Irish have demonstrated in regard to dealing with London London.
Colin Alexander
5 years ago
Robert J. Sutherland and Liz G
I agree my personal gripes with the SNP / SG are secondary right now.
Much of the talk is Brexit. Let’s no forget the other side of the Brexit coin.
The European Union Withdrawal Act 2018 kicks in if the UK leaves the EU (with or without a deal).
Ah, but Ministers of the Crown have to seek consent from Holyrood about legislation.
But they don’t have to obtain consent.
Basically, if Holyrood says:
Aye = consent
No = consent
No answer = consent
That’s called UK democracy. What Scotland says matters not one iota. At least that’s not changed.
At least the pretence of equal partners is over.
Dan
5 years ago
Colin Alexander says: at 10:58 pm
“Come on SNP, give me a reason to vote for the party.”
It ain’t a perfect world by a long way and unfortunately we really have to compromise to an extent due to the current shitfest of constitutional and political setups we are constrained by.
Now these may not be the most eloquent responses in the realm of political theory, but I have had surprising success with the following, so here goes:
“Always vote for the least shit option which is most likely to actually get close to delivering what you want”.
Or put another way:
“All politicians are arseholes (on a spectrum), so vote at every opportunity for the least arseholey ones, and vote at every opportunity for a system of governance that can lead to fewer arseholes”.
NB: Everyone is welcome to critique these suggestions should they feel they can be improved upon.
Ian Brotherhood
5 years ago
This is from a comment which appeared on the WOS Twitter feed about an hour ago. It’s by @StevieCosmic who, I’m quite sure, used to comment here years ago…
‘The SNP can’t stop Bojo, it can’t stop Brexit and it can’t save England from itself. It is utterly powerless in all these respects. The electorate gave them a mandate for one thing only: deliver independence.’
The reason I’m posting this is because it seems to nail the cause of the most recent friction here.
Colin Alexander
5 years ago
Dan
To be fair to the SNP:
I’ve said for a while the devolution SNP Scottish Govt is not good but, the current alternatives eg a Labour or Tory devolution Scot Govt would be much worse alternative.
In the case of a Lab / LibDem administration, they’ve already proved to be much worse than the SNP.
Colin Alexander
5 years ago
We now have a UK Govt that is prepared to shut down UK parliament to prevent English / British democracy.
If they would do that to head office, what would they be prepared to do to the Holyrood devolved / colonial branch office at Holyrood?
Part of me wishes they would just shut Holyrood down. Maybe only then would our Holyrood politicians be forced to accept all they are doing is administering the Union for Westminster. A colonial administration.
If they (the SNP) make Scotland better, it promotes the idea the Union / colonialism is good for Scotland.
If Scotland gets worse, we are told it’s the SNP’s fault for poor administration (not because Scotland is treated as a colony by successive UK Govts, who are ruining all of the UK but, especially don’t give a fig for parts of the UK, such as their North British Scotland colony).
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
Ian Brotherhood @ 23:40,
Personally I think that dog has got a little way more to run, Ian, what with a court appearance or two, street protests down south and all, but it’s rapidly running out of puff.
I’d give it another circuit or two of the track, but no more. Then it needs to be humanely dispatched. And very publicly.
Robert Peffers
5 years ago
@Liz g says:31 August, 2019 at 8:13 pm:
… I know that is your position on the subject Robert as you pointed out you’ve said so often enough.
But that’s not the whole picture.
Well you got that right, it isn’t the whole picture as you go on to demonstrate that you still don’t get it.
” … Firstly.. There’s others who disagree,and that’s their right.”
Of course it is their right, Liz g but what isn’t their right is to attempt to prevent me from that very same right.
” … Secondly…There’s this site,which is very clear is not an SNP site,but rather a political discussion site. Not everyone here is an SNP member!”
Indeed so, Liz g, but the point once again is that you, and many others, obviously miss the real point.
It isn’t about whether they are SNP supporters, SMP members or not SNP supporters. It isn’t even whether they like the SNP or loath them.
The point is this blog is supposedly a supporter of Scottish independence and running down the FM/SG/SNP is running down the one and only, (currently existing), Scottish political party with a hope in hell of gaining independence for Scotland.
” … There is, as I’m sure you know and appreciate a social aspect to this site, and that by definition means that people who post also air their doubts, fears, worries and their need to vent.”
Indeed so but why the hell do so when they are damaging the only political party that has a hope of gaining what, (most of them), claim they fervently want?
If they have a beef with Nicola Sturgeon look on the Holyrood Parliament website, or on the SNP’s website, get her contact details a tell her what you don’t like, mind you she would probably like it better if you told her what you do like. If you have a beef with John Swinney, take it up with him and so on. Thing is they sure as hell will get the message which they probably won’t by dripping here on Wings.
Here is a very typical situation. The problem most women have, and rightly so, about self declared gender issues. Now I have excellent reading comprehension but I can also read between the lines.
What I understand about this issue, (and I mean from a politics viewpoint), is that like every other political party, there are factions within the SNP. No political party has 100% agreement across the board, and a faction within the party are pushing the gender issue HARD, but I’d bet it isn’t the whole upper hierarchy by any means. Factions tend to be fairly small but loud.
If women, and probably most men, want to stop that dead in it’s tracks get onto the FM and other top brass in the party directly and you do not need to be a member to do so at a branch meeting.
Email, snail mail, telephone or whatever. The faction within the party making all the noise out of all proportion to their numbers will get told to back of or get out. The party wants voters for, not voters against.
Now ask yourself this has the totally, out of all proportion, furore this matter has already caused right across social media caused it to be stopped? To date it has been put on the back burner by the party but it has far from gone away. What effect has all the bad feeling generated on social media actually had? Aye! That’s right – it generated more bad feeling.
No one has suggested, least of all me, that people should not disagree with the SNP, nor have I said that everyone should join the party. I say if you are in the party take it up at your branch meeting and if not in the party, don’t vent on social media – tell the party directly as is your right, (and that is to both the SG and the SNP as a party.
So there it is, you say we are not all in the SNP – I say that is not the point – we are, (supposedly). all independence supporters so why harm the main party for independence?
The opponent’s of Independence may very well try to pick up on a chink of dissent…. but just as credible, the SNP may also be using us a weather vain of response to their actions and projections of their intentions?
Come on – What the hell do you think they have branches for? Of course they may have a read of Wings but after reading a typical day’s comments full of claims tat Nicola is too comfortable in Bute House, that the SNP are doing nothing, that Nicola is wrong and should do this that or the other – is there any incentive to ever return to Wings for another dose of SNP BAAAADDDD?
” It could just be that the SNP will get a dam sight more from our musings than the British state ever could!”
Aye! But they can get all the abuse they need right here on Wings. I say it again – if you want the SNP to be certai8n to get your message – good or bad, email, telephone, email, snail mail or even post to the SNP webpages – who knows you just might learn a thing or two there while you are at it.
” … They (SNP) need to know how we really feel and should be able to depend on us Wingers to say it like it is.”
Then tell them so – directly – and not on an open forum they may not read because of the abuse the get here.
” … Thirdly…. My late daughter in law worked for the Scottish Government.Her job was to answer the emails and other correspondence on behalf of the Justice Secretary (Humsa).
He never actually saw any of them. So I cannot imagine that the arrangements are any different for the First Minister.
???
” … While I have only a bit of an idea what went on last night,and I’m not even going to look because I don’t want to rake it all back up….”
Then perhaps it might have been a good idea to do so before making this comment.
” … I know that, you know that you can be crotchety and you’ve claimed the right to be at your age”
It has nothing to do with my age and I’ve spoken my mind all my life. BTW: I rarely use bad language at others. I never threaten anyone and I answer points with points and explain the points. If folks can’t stand that then perhaps an open forum for debate is not for them.
” … ( nae argument there) but with rights come responsibility and that means sometimes remembering that ye are not always answering a squadie from the 77th but mibbi a Lady Winger with her own concerns venting to her Wings family.”
Now I’ve already made the point that you say you did not read all that went on – may I, (respectively), suggest you do so before drawing conclusions?
The person was in the wrong. I drew him up for it. He returned whining that he didn’t understand. I explained in more detail and the usual cabal jumped in with both feet and some, like yourself, had not read the exchanges.
Laughably the whole sorry lot of them couldn’t even be honest enough, or brave enough, to even mention the name of the person they were ganging up on. You at least had the courage to address me in person – I will confess I then goaded them as the bunch of snowflakes they are. Am I sorry? Why ever should I be? I really wasn’t in the wrong. Go read the exchanges and see what I pulled him up for. See what his reactions were and then see those who jumped in and without knowing the facts waded in.
Had to suffer the pain of being on the wrong end of a 5-0 ‘pumping’ fae Inverness Caley Thistle on Friday evening.Hard to take…but that’s ‘fitba.
I am ..nonetheless so grateful that I wont be caught up in the shitfest which is about to explode in approx. 11 hours time.
Liz g
5 years ago
Robert Peffers @ 12.24
The rights and wrongs of it all wasn’t my point!
So to read up on it could only lead to a discussion I’ve nae interest in having.
My point was that…
If you feel that you can judge the motive and tone of a comment…. Then fair enough…
But the “others” judged yours right back and for that you can’t in all honesty complain ( well go on the defensive and fire back really )
As for them or me jumping in…. Well is that no exactly what you did to the original poster too?
( FYI The poster you were answering is not a him it’s a her which I mention only in the interests of accuracy)
While, you don’t use bad language,by which I assume ye mean “so called” profanity,you do use insult and name calling just like the rest of us, and you goad people too!
All part of the rough and tumble of posting here,but if you can’t see that this line you take of not criticising Nicola or the SNP is no in keeping with the ethos of this particular site then this will keep happening, and that in and of itself could do more harm than good too.
I never said you should be sorry,that’s something only you could know or share.
What I do ask is that is that you read what I said objectively and consider it…
Grouse Beater
5 years ago
Ha! A theatrical joke. Love it. Duly retweeted. Thanks, Chris.
I did read all of the posts from last nights thread. It was very unseemly to see all these posters ganging up on Robert Peffers. Particularly Silver Darlings disgraceful comments.
As Peffers says he did not use foul language and was far from abusive. Some people have obviously got it in for him and others cannot take any criticism without throwing a wobbly.
A very poor show. An image of a pack of wolves came to mind.
Liz g
5 years ago
Robert Peffers
AND….. Mr Peffers….. The VERY next time I see you referencing yer Age in relation to not putting up with things….. I will be reminding ye of this conversation… Ha.. Watchin ye now. 🙂
Cubby
5 years ago
Lizg
I have asked on Wings many times for those who like to criticise the SNP and the Scotgov on Wings to explain to silly old me how criticising them constantly helps the cause of independence. Not a dicky bird has been forthcoming.
On the other hand if a person was constantly criticising the Britnats does that make that person more or less likely to be a Britnat.
Liz g
5 years ago
Cubby @ 1.07
I’m no ganging up on Robert,Cubby,I consider him a friend.
And I said what I said as a friend..
We’ve had a difference of opinions many times before and we both speak our minds…. He knows that ( I hope )
And the last thing I want to do is start it all back up again.
Liz g
5 years ago
Cubby @ 1.17
Well …. As I said to Robert,this is a talking shop and potentially a bell weather for how the grassroots are feeling.
If the SNP/Scottish Government can’t find out how we’re really feeling here…. Then where?
That’s how it will help.
And it’s just my opinion but, that’s of greater use to the SNP than anything that the British state could glean here.
Mainly because there’s always a rebuttal or a different take offered.
That’s the benefit I see!
Cubby
5 years ago
Lizg
Never thought you were ganging up on Peffers and didn’t mean to give that impression at all. I thought it was all an over the top reaction by a number of posters. Peffers then called them snowflakes and based on the modern meaning of the word it seemed pretty fair comment to me.
Thanks for your explanation but I’m not convinced. Attacking the organisation that you hope will deliver independence just doesn’t do it for me. Particularly people like Colin Alexander who does nothing but attack the SNP/ Scotgov. Why do the Britnats dirty work for them? It is possible to give an opinion without attacking the SNP/Scotgov. You
In the Independence cause we tend to think of the SNP as ours but they’re not, they’re everybody’s whether you vote for them or don’t vote for them, love them or hate them
That’s the problem with trying to be a fair government to everybody, you can’t neglect the ones who hate you or they’ll just hate you more and that doesn’t get you votes or new voters
It’s a bit like being an entertainer, you’ve got to at least appear to be nice to everybody even if you feel like tearing the flesh from their bones or they don’t turn up for the next gig
It seems it’s only big governments of big countries who don’t give a toss about anybody because they don’t need to, they control the media output on themselves
Look at the stuff that happens in England every day and the media never seem to call for the head of the government, they blame a council or the head of a department or the police or doctors, yet in Scotland everything that happens the media find a way to make the public believe that somehow Nicola Sturgeon sat in her office and made it happen deliberately as part of her evil plan to annoy people
Her *threats* of Independence, Jacob Reese Mogg getting away with talking about her anger issues, on the telly, every opposition MSP or MP continually banging on attempting to give the impression that Nicola Sturgeon only has one thing on her mind 24 hours of the day *Independence* as if she’s some kind of a nutter
What nobody ever mentions is the fact that when Scotland gets its Independence if it really was going to be as bad as they say and doom would befall us all why in the hell would Nicola Sturgeon want to be immediately voted out of office and hated for all time if she thought for one second it was going to fail she’d be signing her own political D warrent so what would be in it for her, it’d be like the Queen going on the telly and saying F..k the lot of you I’m off home to Germany, I mean they wouldn’t want her to continue as Queen anymore would they
Liz g
5 years ago
Cubby @ 1.46
Aw ok Cubby thanks for sayin 🙂
I do take yer point about Colin Alexander and others ( many of them ) but people here usually get their measure pretty quickly and they get away with nothing…
I was more talking about people who … well basically… have an opinion!
We need the time and space to work it through and unpack what could/should be going on
For me (and you needn’t agree,of course you neednt) it’s very unhelpful to have an honest Indy supporter lumped in with people like Colin and his ilk for questioning the leadership of the direction of the movement.
We’re never going to be rid of the disrupters,but it insults everyone’s intelligence to think that we should all be on the same page on everything.
If ye think something’s wrong ye should be able to say so…
Yes …. on an open forum,especially one with the knowledge contained in this one!
That’s what helps ye decide if you should be contacting the Government over it,or if there’s something that ye didn’t know.
It also helps in getting others to decide if it’s important enough tae join us in yer endeavours!
That, I think,is worth more to the independence movement than a demonstration of such loyalty that everything has to be private for the sake of image.
I cannot personally argue to bring my Government within slapping distance if I only ever demonstrate that I’d never give them that slap!
Liz g
5 years ago
Dr Jim @ 1.59
Yes they will go after Nicola at every turn,which is why I can see the argument for not criticising here,but only up to a point.
I think one of the lines of attack will come from Ruth the Mooths replacement being totally against the GRA.
We need to do some work to make it clear that the whole point of Independence was and is that no matter what any leader thought…. If people pay attention and object no leader can just go ahead here…. And that’s the difference between Holyrood and Westminster…. There’s nae new GRA in Scotland but there IS a R*** Clause….
Robert J. Sutherland
5 years ago
Liz g,
I’m just dipping in occasionally while getting on with other things, but I just want to say I admire your tolerance and patience with your two respondents. You make a particularly important point about the need to discriminate between two very different kinds of contributor, a discrimination in fact that most of us in here seem to be able to make without the slightest difficulty.
I’m somewhat reminded of the worst period of the French Terror. The revolutionaries were very strict believers in the Rationality of Man (if not necessarily Woman =grin=), which led them into the erroneous notion that there could only be one Right Way about any policy that every rationally-thinking person would automatically understand and support, and anyone who took a different view was therefore by definition a schemer and ("Tractor" - Ed) to the cause. But political viewpoints persisted, as they will, since attitudes vary, which inevitably led to gory rounds of mass executions of the losing factions. Until everybody got royally fed up (so to speak) and went back to having a monarchy, at least for a while.
As for members of the SNP in particular being obliged to haud their wheesht in public and stick rigidly to the party line, that’s for the birds. (See the letters pages of The National for plentiful evidence of that!) More seriously, there are still people alive for whom that particular notion can still send cold shivers up their spines.
Liz g
5 years ago
Robert J Sutherland @ 2.45
Why thank you sir 🙂
I’m just feeling particularly reasonable tonight… lol…
And I’m banking some of it so that some kind Winger will say something when I am out of order 🙂
As has been known to happen… no honestly… I know you are thinking that could never happen!!
( you are aren’t you ) but just occasionally… we’ll ye know??? 🙂
I mentioned politics being similar to the entertainment business because that’s what earned me my living, and I found that these two arenas of work are the most criticised jobs on the planet by people who can’t do either of those jobs
People used to say to me all the time the wonderful phrase *can you take constructive criticism* and when I was young I’d bite my lip and be polite and answer in the affirmative while smiling
Once I reached my fifties I began to answer truthfully by saying *Oh are you a musician?* and when they replied no I immediately replied with *how can you criticise something you don’t understand bugger off out of my face and don’t annoy me*
People knowing what they like and understanding why or how they like it are different things and I find politics much the same, I think I know what I like and then the next minute a good professional politician knowing their job reminds you of something you didn’t think of because they are immersed in all the aspects of it that I didn’t see or appreciate enough to understand
Now that I’m 70 I reckon I’d be even worse and that’s why I’m retired, can’t stand people criticising what they don’t understand and I guess it must be the same way for politicians, because they hear and see every opinion, point of view good bad indifferent stupid or just plain bananas, and they even get threatened for it, so did I on occasion
I could never be a politician even if I was on the right side, far too stressful if you’re one of the good ones because you work in an arena that’s full of the bad and bone idle lazy ones that give the few gooduns the bad rep
I understand the retired politicians popping up every now and then as well because like me they think they’d like to go back out and gig but at our age nobody wants us to do that even if we were good at it
Politics like entertainment, both rotten businesses that you hate retiring from
So that’s my tired late night rambling done and I ask forgiveness and thank you for your forebearance if you took the time to read my mumblings
twathater
5 years ago
liz G @ 2.14am I hate to say it but again I most certainly agree with you , I can honestly say that your diplomatic skills are exemplary and would be of great benefit to the forthcoming citizens hub and forum and I would respectfully request that you consider adding your name to the applicants
As a Scottish voter and avid supporter of independence for Scotland I will continue to voice my opinions on OUR governments progress or not on this site unless the site owner and moderator determines otherwise
Liz g
5 years ago
Dr Jim @ 3.15
Sleep well…. and for the morning….
Ye weren’t rambling and I was genuinely interested to read your take on things.
The only thing I would say is, an entertainer I can take or leave, but a politician can affect me and mine so I’d say… I don’t need to understand them only the effects they are likely to have on me, to have the right and it has to be said the duty to critique them?
………………………..
Twathater @ 3.19
Thank You Twathater it was good of you to say….
Is that the Citizen Assembly you’re talking about?
Or something different?
Col.Blimp IV
5 years ago
Cubby @1.17
I suppose everyone has their own reasons.
But there is a limit to what extent and for how long, one can bite ones tongue in the name of faux “unity”.
When I joined the SNP Willie Wolf was the chairman and everything seemed at “least to me” to be open and democratic, toryish types, communists, republicans, monarchists and apolitical members could argue the toss about anything and everything but would always hold their personal views to be subordinate to “the good of the movement.
When Gordon Wilson was in charge, I began to notice that he would scrape the sky with his delegates card a millisecond after a vote was called for, so there could be no doubt as to which way you were supposed to vote if you didn’t want to see an “SNP SPLIT” headline in the following day’s newspapers.
When Alex Salmond took the helm, any important decision due to be debated at national council or conference, was preceded by press releases, converting what should have been a proposal, seeking the approval of the delegates, into a choice between supine compliance or pressing the self-destruct button.
By the time Nicola came along Alex Neil was just about the only member of the” “hierarchy” who had not been hand-picked by the boss and the party had adopted a barrow-load of policies to place it precisely on the spot on the political spectrum the Great Leader wished it to occupy and the process continues…
There were of course many casualties along the way, one of the conflicts was when the powers that be, decided to cancel the party’s commitment to holding a referendum on EU membership AFTER achieving independence … bearing that in mind, the leaderships current stance re Brexit might account for an upsurge in dissension from people who clearly do support Scottish independence.
I will continue to give praise were it is due but feel it my duty to fire the occasional shot across their bows when they sail into waters they have no justification for being in.
Col.Blimp IV
5 years ago
Moderator
Did I forget to put the “e” at the end of Wolf[e]?
Was that AS nickname a Unionist divining, red flagable word?
or have I transgressed in some other way?
twathater
5 years ago
Liz G yes the citizens assembly , they are requesting applications , and WE need you to help hold their feet to the fire , go fur it
Col.Blimp IV
5 years ago
I suppose everyone has their own reasons.
But there is a limit to what extent and for how long, one can bite ones tongue in the name of faux “unity”.
When I joined the SNP Willie Wolf was the chairman and everything seemed at “least to me” to be open and democratic, toryish types, communists, republicans, monarchists and apolitical members could argue the toss about anything and everything but would always hold their personal views to be subordinate to “the good of the movement.
When Gordon Wilson was in charge, I began to notice that he would scrape the sky with his delegates card a millisecond after a vote was called for, so there could be no doubt as to which way you were supposed to vote if you didn’t want to see an “SNP SPLIT” headline in the following day’s newspapers.
When Alex Salmond took the helm, any important decision due to be debated at national council or conference, was preceded by press releases, converting what should have been a proposal, seeking the approval of the delegates, into a choice between supine compliance or pressing the self-destruct button.
By the time Nicola came along Alex Neil was just about the only member of the” “hierarchy” who had not been hand-picked by the boss and the party had adopted a barrow-load of policies to place it precisely on the spot on the political spectrum the [redacted redacted] wished it to occupy and the process continues…
There were of course many casualties along the way, one of the conflicts was when the powers that be, decided to cancel the party’s commitment to holding a referendum on EU membership AFTER achieving independence … bearing that in mind, the leaderships current stance re Brexit might account for an upsurge in dissension from people who clearly do support Scottish independence.
I will continue to give praise were it is due but feel it my duty to fire the occasional shot across their bows when they sail into waters they have no justification for being in.
Col.Blimp IV
5 years ago
puzzling to say the least
Liz g
5 years ago
Twathater @ 3.53
Thank You
I think I might….I had understood that the selection was just like Jury Duty ..
I didn’t know that you had to apply!! 🙂
Liz g
5 years ago
Twathater @ 3.19
What is this——- OUR—— Government shit???
Ha— now we find disagreement— 🙂
This is MY Government…
And not because I’m Elizabeth..
But
Because I’m Sovereign
As are You
So if she ( Auld lizzie Windsor ) can say MY Governent..
Twathater…. so can you xxx
ahundredthidiot
5 years ago
Ian Brotherhood @11:30
I agree with that sentiment, however, NS and the SNP need to play Brexit carefully, this is our HOLD moment, without a doubt.
The UK hasn’t ‘left’ the EU yet……and you cant put out a fire that hasn’t started, so, time for a bit of self discipline and patience, which is definitely testing.
I imagine that once Brexit is an actual reality, a date for IndyRef2 will be announced (for that is their mandate) and we can all focus on that – with ‘Brexit arguments’ finally behind us the road ahead will become clearer.
Essexexile
5 years ago
So, Boris Johnson has told the Tory rebels to side with him or the clueless, utterly unelectable Jeremy Corbyn. That’s now the only likely hurdle before a no deal exit.
I remember David Cameron, at one of his last PMQs saying to Corbyn “It may be in my party’s interest for you to remain leader of the opposition but it’s certainly not in this country’s interest. For goodness sake man, go!”
We’ll, that’s where we are now as Michel Barnier has quite correctly told Johnson the backstop stays which may lead to the abyss of no deal and Corbyn is the alternative (as the Rev said, the country would rather vote for Jimmy Savile).
My guess is that big business on both sides will step in as we near the Halloween deadline and insist on a further delay on the basis that the political landscape may change.
As I’ve said previously, ‘leaving but not having actually left yet’ is the UKs relationship with the EU for the foreseeable future. Which of course means that Scotland’s relationship with the rUK continue in the same vein.
ahundredthidiot
5 years ago
Essexville@7:43
I am inclined to disagree about big business setting a delay agenda – English Brexiteers wont have it and would likely put the anti brexit marches to shame in terms of turn-out and impact – and probably not without violence, which is why I think big business would not succeed in that type of endeavour (if they did try, which I am not convinced they will).
Robert Louis
5 years ago
Ian Brotherhood’s comment at 1140pm,
Is worth repeating, because I think it is most important. His citing of a twitter comment, really does go to the heart of things.
The fact is, the SNP have tried, really, really tried, over and over again, to seek common ground in England over brexit. At every single turn, they have been utterly ignored, over and over again. At present, they are looking to work cross-party, with folk like Labour to stop no-deal brexit, with NO GUARANTEE, or acknowledgement from Labour that they would respect desire for Scottish independence. So what is the SNP going to get from all this?? NOTHING. Has Corbyn said ‘help us stop brexit, and qwe’ll back your push for independence? No, I thinketh not. Indeed he has said the EXACT opposite.
Whilst they may wish to continue to add their votes to others to help prevent a no-deal brexit, out of some kind of loyalty to those in England who sneer at them on an almost daily basis, that should no longer be their focus. Brexit is a very English thing. It is English nationalism writ large. It is time for OUR SNP Scottish Government and MP’s, to put Scotland first.
It is really rather simp[le, idependence, independence, independence, and really before the brexit sh*tfest happens. England, and especially Westminster across all parties, cares nothing for Scotland.
It is high time, the SNP stopped fretting about those who seek to destroy us as a country, and sovereign nation.
Here below for reference, is the relevant comment from Ian Brotherhood at 1140pm last night;
QUOTE :
This is from a comment which appeared on the WOS Twitter feed about an hour ago. It’s by @StevieCosmic who, I’m quite sure, used to comment here years ago…
‘The SNP can’t stop Bojo, it can’t stop Brexit and it can’t save England from itself. It is utterly powerless in all these respects. The electorate gave them a mandate for one thing only: deliver independence.’
The reason I’m posting this is because it seems to nail the cause of the most recent friction here.
Colin Alexander
5 years ago
Liz G
Criticising the SNP or Scot Govt does not make someone a Unionist / fake indy supporter.
People like Commissar Cubby and you, seem to think it’s their job to criticise others in the YES movement who aren’t following the true SNP way.
What gives you the right to brand anyone who is ever critical of the SNP or Scot Govt as Unionists?
Why don’t youse say it to Stu and the many others who have commented, who’ve also been critical of the SNP too?
How many polls has there ever been that showed the SNP on 50% +1 of the popular vote? So, if indy is all about being a devoted supporter of the SNP / SNP Scot Govt, we are making things harder for ourselves.
When will people get it into their heids:
WE NEED PEOPLE WHO DON’T SUPPORT THE SNP, SUCH AS LABOUR VOTERS, TO VOTE YES AND POLLS SHOW 40% OF LABOUR VOTERS WOULD VOTE YES!
SLAGGING THEM, BRANDING THEM UNIONISTS, DOES NOT BUILD SUPPORT FOR INDEPENDENCE.
Essexexile
5 years ago
Good morning ahundredthidiot.
Fair point, but I’m not so sure. Mass public demonstrations are usually against a particular policy or set of individuals with a clear point. The economic minutiae surrounding Brexit are (let’s be honest) beyond most people, leave or remain and hardly a rallying point for violent protest.
I believe PM Johnson’s ‘game’ of Trump style brinkmanship has gone as far as it can. He’s made no deal Brexit a very real possibility and the EU hasn’t blinked. 60 odd days for business leaders to apply pressure for another extension which will seem more palatable as we’ve already had one.
I think we’re unlikely to see hordes of sweaty, red faced pensioners trashing BMW dealerships but the world’s rapidly going mad so who knows!
John Thomson
5 years ago
Corbyn will not support indy, if he did and we won it would destroy English labour hard unionists down south would never vote labour again and new parties would form not least a labour form of the Brexit party.
Effijy
5 years ago
On Netflix the movie The Great Hack is a must watch.
It blows the whistle on Cambridge Analytica and
How the money that buys the data and manipulated it
Can put Trump in the Whitehouse and the UK out of Europe.
Key players in the company are now Remorseful about their
Activities and tell their own stories.
Brittany Kaiser is one photographed with the likes of Trump, Alexander Nik,
Aaron Banks, Nigel Farage, etc.
She lived the jet set life and included shooting with Conservatives in the UK.
A picture shows her at a shooting weekend with the faces of 2 men blurred out.
One has the frame of an Alister Jack, a Scottish Millionaire Tory MP renowned
For inviting senior Tories and their Associates to his very substantial Estate for
Shooting weekends?
Next photo used and she is at a diner with men in kilts and she wears a tartan sash.
Terrifying proof that we are now living in 1984 and they rich in power can buy and
Control everything.
They have all your likes and dislikes and your friends and colleagues info via
Facebook etc. All your Card transaction what you bought for how much when,
Credit Score, mobile calls to who when from where.
What you looked at on line, who do you exchange e-mails with and who they are.
Are your family pictures all stored in a cloud somewhere hackable?
Our souls have been sold to a devil for the convenience of these devices.
galamcennalath
5 years ago
Seen several predictions that there will be a general election on Oct 17th.
If Johnson finds events ‘too hot’ this coming week, that may be his next step.
We’ll know soon enough.
ahundredthidiot
5 years ago
Effijy @9:09
No one an hack your vote though……social media is just another form of media and there is a lot more freedom ‘out there’ than there is on telly.
Now, I am not for any sort of information gathering and all for privacy conditions, but to suggest that it put Trump in the White House is nonsense.
Netflix also did a docufilm thingy on the white helmets in Syria portraying them as some kind of local heroes – it couldn’t be further from the truth and borderline war propaganda.
So, take anything you see on telly, social media and even Netflix, with a pinch of salt. (Postal votes/deceased people aside!) – No one can hack you in the voting booth.
Terry callachan
5 years ago
This will be the first crisis caused by brexit and it will develop into civil war if the British army is sent back into Northern Ireland
Yes they have all your info but hey the way I look at it is that I want them to know all about me I want them to know how much I hate england controlling Scotland and ripping us off.
I want them to know that I am supporting Scottish independence my whole life until it happens
They see my determination
They see my anger
That’s okay , they can’t take that away from me
Dave McEwan Hill
5 years ago
Colin Alexander at 8.39
“Criticising the SNP or Scot Govt does not make someone a Unionist / fake indy supporter.”
But only attacking the SNP and the Scottish Government does.
As soon as “Colin Alexander” is sensibly challenged he reverts back to his pretendy “SNP support” position as he thinks we are all daft.
Really moving post from Clootie at 11.32pm and absolutely spot on.
Breeks
5 years ago
ahundredthidiot says:
1 September, 2019 at 7:32 am
Ian Brotherhood @11:30
I agree with that sentiment, however, NS and the SNP need to play Brexit carefully, this is our HOLD moment, without a doubt.
The UK hasn’t ‘left’ the EU yet……and you cant put out a fire that hasn’t started, so, time for a bit of self discipline and patience, which is definitely testing…
Ask ANY fireman, and they’ll tell you fire prevention is the best remedy for any fire. It would be unforgivable to sell out Scotland and capitulate to our unconstitutional Brexit, and it is infuriating that so many Independence supporters are so casually ambivalent about the actual consequences of Brexit and what it will mean for Scotland’s economy and the standard of living we have.
I made the comment yesterday that within hours of Boris Johnson looking to prorogue Parliament and overstep Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty, he was taken to Court in three countries and vilified by the Establishment for committing a Constitutional outrage in ‘merely’ denying the House of Commons four days of debate. Yet in Scotland, in 2016 when the Constitutional outrage was against Scotland’s popular sovereignty, a sovereign and democratic Remain mandate, and where Brexit threatens to inflict incalculable damage on the Scottish economy, there has been virtually nothing made of the unconstitutional impropriety of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty being subjugated. Where is our outrage? Where are our Constitutional Test cases? Where is Scotland’s Backstop? Why are we sleepwalking towards Brexit dreaming of better times in 2020???
Brexit at the end of October is NOT about Brexit. Brexit at the end of October is the fulcrum. It marks the tipping point where Scotland changes from being a Sovereign Nation having a democratic constitutional mandate to prevent it’s subjugation and affirm it’s sovereign ascendency, and the alternative state, where Scotland is Brexited against it’s will, thus proving the sovereign will of Westminster to Brexit Scotland is SUPERIOR to the sovereign will of Scotland to defend it’s Remain mandate. We are living through a constitutional test case whether we realise it or not, yet we are without representation.
If we permit Scotland to be Brexited, we concede that Westminster’s sovereign will, even without any democratic ratification or mandate in Scotland, is still superior to Scotland’s constitutionally sovereign democratic majority. “They” rule us.
The SNP “looks” on course to duck the Brexit change of state about to be suffered upon Scotland, presumably hoping the outrage and deprivations of life after Brexit will swell their Parliamentary strength in both Holyrood and Westminster, and they hope, a future Referendum, despite that referendum henceforth having to prove constitutional credentials, credentials which we don’t even seem willing to defend.
People who articulate criticism and condemnation of SNP strategy have EVERY reason to be outspoken in their concerns, because Scotland has dropped the ball regarding our Constitutional Sovereignty. Instead of having a Constitutional Backstop to rival Northern Ireland, the mere existence of Scotland as a nation barely features in ANY formal Brexit negotiation or provisional agreement. We are mute, invisible, impotent, passengers in a bus about to be driven over a cliff, and we are talking down our own clock.
I don’t give a shit about Labour, Corbyn, Davidson, Davidson’s baby, Swinson’s accent, a By-Election result, a Section 30,, a poll showing a modest swing…. I shut my ears to it all. It is all mindless, bourgeois “after dinner” chatter while the blazing meteor of our Constitutional subjugation enters the atmosphere above our heads.
Friends, whether we like each other or not, whether we agree and respect each other or not, Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty MUST be brought into play before Brexit happens, and we are critically short of time. There shouldn’t even be discussion of IndyRef2 before November. It is a distraction from much more critical necessities.
Ian Blackford has said that Scotland will NOT be dragged out of Europe against it’s will. I don’t know if Mr Blackford is a maverick who speaks for himself, or speaks from his position as SNP leader in Westminster, his Party, or whether he alludes to Top Secret plans that a well advanced but strategically hidden from view, but I DO know Mr Blackford is the only one saying the only thing that matters.
Scotland will not be dragged out of Europe against it’s will.
If we think we suffer from Unionists inventing false realities about YES2014 being a once in a generation thing, be in no doubt whatsoever that Brexit, and our sovereign rejection of Brexit, and the chaotic debacle unfolding at Westminster, represents a truly unprecedented coming together of such favourable circumstances for Scottish Independence that we MUST consider Brexit as a chance in a million and we would utter, utter, fools to let the opportunity slip from our grasp.
59 days. For god’s Sake, defend our constitutional sovereignty.
Effijy
5 years ago
Terry, I see where you are coming from but making our own
Positive case isn’t a factor in all this.
They find the don’t knows and the slightly over the line people and
Tailor make propaganda that turns them the paymasters way.
In Trinidad they were hired by the Asian party.
Analytica persuaded 40% of the Caribbean youth not to vote.
This turned the expected result by 5% and the Asians are in power.
A UK committee investigating this declared that UK election laws are
No longer fit for purpose.
The world can no longer hold what we knew as a Fair and a True Democratic Election!
Whoever buys the most data and puts out the most fake news wind. Full Stop.
Do Boris, Gideon, Reese Migg and Alister Jack and all the OxBrige Elute
Have deeper pockets than the SNP and Wings supporters?
What that reality movie and be shocked to the core.
Marcia
5 years ago
We are now in the ‘period of events, dear boy, events’. A bit like January/February 1974 which ended with the demise of the Heath Government. Political things can move quickly so don’t rule out anything in or out at the moment.
Sadly, 80 years ago today, Poland was invaded by Nazi Germany and that event led to a series of events leading to the ultimate demise of Nazi Germany. The Germans thought they were invincible but they weren’t. Same goes for the Etonian political elite at Westminster.
Not seen `The Great Hack` but does it mention the Obama re-election campaign that used facebook data to target voters,called by Obama `Project Narwhal`,
“People don’t trust campaigns. They don’t even trust media organizations,” Teddy Goff, the Obama campaign’s digital director, said at the time. “Who do they trust? Their friends.”
According to a Time magazine account just after Obama won re-election, “the team blitzed the supporters who had signed up for the app with requests to share specific online content with specific friends simply by clicking a button.”
The effort was called a “game-changer” in the 2012 election, and the Obama campaign boasted that it was “the most groundbreaking piece of technology developed for the campaign.”
Cambridge Analytica were not the first to use/abuse facebook data.
Sorry Mr Alexander but as usual you are wrong. I have never branded you a unionist. That term should be reserved for people who actually are for a PROPER political union. You are a BRITNAT. That is what I have always called you. A British Nationalist who wants to keep Scotland in a repressive U.K. Dictatorship.
You attack the SNP non stop. That is not the same as someone making the occasional point. Your defence is just rubbish and you know it.
I think the above paragraph should be clear enough even for you.
And you know what you can do with your commissar cubby comment.
Excellent, Chris. Well done.
Haven’t been to a pantomime in a long while. But now it’s everyday.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, Belter.
Spat my coffee over the kitchen table when I opened this up today!!!
excellent what a great laugh to start the day . . Thanks Chris.
Brilliant
If I stop smiling and laughing today after this belter of a cartoon it will because I have gone to bed ?????????
I needed a good laugh. Thank you, Chris!
Perhaps Chris will allow it to be shared with local papers?
Just brilliant….beautifully drawn….many thanks.
But who is playing his arse…?
I picture oor Ross as being much happier under the cover of that back end, for… some … reason.
Udder Brilliance!
Disgusted again at the Orange Order Thugs being
Allowed to attack innocent citizens on Glasgow’s Streets.
Senior police and politicians seem to cower as these events prevail.
Have the police or council filmed the event?
Will they announce large number of arrests and prosecutions?
Has a team been set up to trace the organisers?
Not likely. We will be threatened by the red, white and blue
Knuckle Draggers at Indy Ref 2. They will be looking to battle
In the streets and bars tomorrow after the Old Firm Bigot Fest
and the Police will put 6 drinks behind bars until sober and a weekend’s
Booze budget is paid in fines.
Riot Police seem to be on tap at peaceful protest marches but not when it’d the OO ?
I want these guy baton charged, arrested And given long sentences
To discourage their counterparts and their offspring.
So much in one sketch!
Ruthie stomping off in a huff perfectly captured.
Dopey Ross, disheveled Boris, the “Coo”
Still smiling
excellent.
Party appointee and Unelected dictator, Johnson should be in jail. It is all I think every time I see him. The man should be held criminally liable for DELIBERATELY trashing the entire United Kingdom.
Either a democracy or not. Their is no ‘grey area’.
Superb, Chris. Boris exposed backstage with a coo wannabe and Ruthie throwing in the hat.
Nice to imagine Boris speaking the truth. I hope this cartoon follows him around on buses.
I know its a cartoon but honestly. You people are pathetic. No, not just pathetic – dangerous, uninformed, ignorant hypocrites. You have no idea the pandoras box you open with this.
The left/remainers are talking about ‘occupying parliament’ and stopping Boris Johnson yet what is happening under the current government is purely within the rules and purely within democratic limits. The elected government of the UK is delivering its mandate on the outcome of a referendum that the people of the UK voted for.
Ive always said it, as have many others, that the left do not care about democracy – its all power play and democracy sometimes adds some legitimacy to it. You are dancing to the tune of globalist powers.
Im all for an independent Scotland but I will stand with Brexiteers on this issue before I stand with disgusting, hypocritical scum who are undermining the very democracy they are appealing to when it comes to Scottish Independence. In the same way id never have backed down if we’d won our own indy ref.
What respect for your democratic rights should anyone have if you support this?
I will never accept my country to be ruled by the kind of ‘well meaning’ tyrants that have wrecked many countries and murdered, starved and destroyed the lives of 10’s of millions so far. The kind that can tell you that men can be women with a mere signing of a form. That can tell you with a straight face that they are saving democracy by shitting on the result of referendum.
The leaders of this attempt are painting themselves for what they are. Their supporters also.
Lets bring it on then. War it is.
An added bonus Chrie, Joe is upset!
Oh, well played.
Pipe down Joe. You’ve made a fud of yourself that thousands will read. “War it is”…..eejit.
Great cartoon Chris.
Aw Joe, ur ye ragin?
Ere wots he tokeen ’bout? Aih? (Said wiv best cockney gangster accent I can muster).
Trouble is Joe, like your heroes, you’re just another cardboard character.
Among the endless politicians and commentators cartoons speak a beautiful truth.
@ Clootie
Upset?
A large group of people (including political leaders) are talking about physically occupying/overturning parliament, in the face of a democratically held referendum, while demanding that their democratic rights be respected.
Do you know what happens when the democratic process is undermined enough that nobody will respect the results?
Do you know what the people who voted for this are thinking when they see this happening?
If that doesn’t bother you then you are nothing more than an ignorant child.
Hey Joe.
Where are you going with that gun in your hand?
It seems to be your Westminster Democratic Rules
To get into power with nothing but lies like £350 Million per week to the NHS.
It seems fine in UK rules to attack the basic benefits of the severely handicapped and disabled.
Your rules give no limit to the millions of children living in poverty while larger corporations are
Given Billions in rebates and allowed to pay Zero Tax.
It’s in the rules you love to see schools and wards closed down
Due to Austerity cuts.
Your beloved rules seen thousands of women confined to their homes due to period poverty.
It’s in your rules to give Scotland no voice in its economic future, to steal its resources to take it out
Of Europe against its will and in a format that suits the English.
It’s in the rules that we are not permitted to know what’s in the top secret files
Relating to the Dunblane massacre.
It’s in the rules we have a corrupt and biased national broadcaster that all 37 newspapers available
In 2014, were against independence while the polls stood at 50/50.
It’s in the rules that I can watch All of England’s football matches on Scottish TV, and that’s Men’s, women’s and youths but not Scotland’s matches.
Presenter Gary Liniker as part of a 3 man team gets more money from the BBC
than Scottish Football.
Rules that stopped woman from voting, put children down coal mines and drove families into
The sea during the Highland clearances And starved millions in Ireland were all condemned.
The fascist Tory Party and its supporters are also to be condemned.
THIS is one dress rehearsal the Tories got all wrong
Ruth Hood and her merry
menthievesThey take from the poor and give to the rich (pooling n sharing)
link to youtube.com
Exit stage door right Davidssson
Great cartoon, Chris. Love it.
What are you on about, Joe?
So Johnson is in Churchill pose and garb. But as for his thumb? I reckon Ross is gonna get squished any time soon.
What about this a flute band in Glasgow marching through the streets protesting against a united Ireland so people complain and form their own protest against them and trouble ensues
link to irishtimes.com
Brilliant cartoon as ever.
LOL, , very good Chris.
Begging bowl’s out again.
We’ve one week to get this to 60% so the production can be paid and shipping occurs on time.
I have a busy week coming up so if anyone feels like pushing this on here, F**ebook or Tw**ter…. link to gofundme.com
We don’t want Ireland’s political discord played out on the streets of Scotland
Every year flute bands from Scotland go to Northern Ireland to join in unionist marches and now we have an Irish republican flute band marching in Glasgow
Both must be stopped
Ah! Joe is the arse end of the coo.
The basis of some peoples anger can be found deep down inside them. Cognitive dissonance has a powerful effect over people who have just enough intelligence to know, somewhere rooted inside their tiny little brains, that they are in fact, wrong. Then their emotions come to the surface when they are trying to make their own argument, however wrong it is.
Got to admire their passion, but the angry boxer always loses.
Cartoon is brilliant! ( though I always thought that Panto’s were full of joy and fun – unlike the reality we face today)
Tartanpigsy, is there a way I can donate that does not require my details to be on line? I have been diddled once before and will never put details on line again.
Apparently, Ross prefers to be at the rear end of the coo, but for some strange reason none of the usual tory sycophants volunteered to steer the beast.
Hey Joe, Where are you going with that giant chip on your shoulder?
I think you have the wrong site son, what’s the weather like in Thanet?
Cracking “toon” Chris. Nice One.
Ha,ha brilliant Chris.
Meanwhile Scottish Civil servants have been blocked by Westminster from attending Brussels on devolved matters, as Brexit secretary Stephen Barclay trades away our industries.
link to thenational.scot
Ha, Ha, ha, very good, I enjoyed that and Conan’s comment too.
Joe managed 5 words of sense then started gibbering about believing in Independence as long as we accept that the UK has melted into one big country.
@Effijy says:
31 August, 2019 at 8:08 am
Disgusted again at the Orange Order Thugs being
Allowed to attack innocent citizens on Glasgow’s Streets.
Seems the riot police were called out.
link to bbc.co.uk
Agree with what you say but the worry is this could be used as an excuse to try to ban Yes/Indy marches in future. See the problem wasn’t with the marchers but the bigots who turned out against the march, so a record of peaceful marching may not be enough in future.
Not an MP and with no political authority, closed shop speaker, Gordon Brown who’s wheeled out regularly and fawned over by the media, has said he believes the EU will withdraw its current 31st of October deadline.
However the EU Council has said it cannot withdraw a deadline, and that only the member state can ask for a further extension.
Brown of course is spouting his usual bollocks.
link to thenational.scot
Poor Ross, I don’t think he really twigged that Boris is much more comfortable with the green welly and Barbour set than thrusting young upstart Thatcherites.
Joe’s put too many sprinkles on his jelly.
Ross Thomson next leader of Scottish Tory`s ?
now that Colonel Ruth has been booted out the door,Boris will need a loyal toady and they come no more Boris loyal than Ross.
Nice one Chris, my morning chuckle, good start to the day
we are a movement…I welcome anyone who’s bottom line is independence.
Joe and all of us have a right to be heard
I don’t agree with him however
I meant within limits obviously, ie no fascists for example
The Colonel isn’t storming off in a huff, she’s away to sell the magic beans, whilst there’s still a market for them.
PLEASE stop biting peeps, hard to resist i know, but you can do it.
Leave them to howl at the moon alone, and they go away!
Ross Thomson as leader of the Scottish Conservatives?
What about the hastened effect on climate change though? Can you imagine the shovel-loads of erm… ‘methane’ that would have to be disposed of after a First Minister’s Questions session with Nicola?
Now there’s yer pantomime!
Is it too much to hope for?
That’s a keeper Chris. 😀 LOL
Interesting. Boris usurps the Parliamentary Sovereignty of Westminster, robs MP’s of a few days debate, and within hours he’s taken to Court, facing emergency measures in England, Scotland and Wales, with a former PM adding his weight to the campaign, despite having prorogued Westminster himself to avoid the cash for questions furore.
Meanwhile in Scotland, when Westminster brazenly usurps and demeans the Popular Sovereignty of the Scottish people and threatens Scotland with lasting economic catastrophe against the will of the sovereign majority… we get three years of tumbleweed blowing around the streets.
Defo
We were not biting, responding or engaging. We were mocking – quite different.
Boris adopting the feet-too-far-apart power stance there. The pair wee coo looks terrified, perhaps it heard what happened to the Burlingdon pig.
Another superb toon from the master of political toons.
Apologies Clootie
Apart from the wags mocking those obviously out to disrupt…please stop.
I don’t mind a bit of banter Rev Stu but it’s a tad much to turn up in the morning for a read of your favourite Independence site to be greeted by some mental (Joe) calling the posters and readers of the site every insulting name his troubled lonely wee mind can think up then stick in a platitude or two hoping that’ll guarantee his not being banned for insulting more than half the population of Scotland
Then up pops another one informing us that their views have a right to be heard when actually they don’t have any rights whatsoever on a forum that’s not theirs, in the same way I don’t have rights if you don’t like something any of the rest of us might decide to write on your blog pages that could bring the kind of attention from more of these clowns
Most folk on this site are fairly reasonable people, some of us get out of hand now and again and we get a row for it
either by you or other posters to behave ourselves and generally the site is pretty well self policed in its behaviour and the better for it
These guys are not reasonable people airing reasonable views in the spirit of anything close to discourse, these guys are only here to promote British Nationalism which is the very opposite to what the rest of us in our rambling scribblings are all about given that this is an Independence site and not a British Nationalist site
As usual I enjoyed the cartoon from Chris as I always do
Robin
Read your last post carefully. You cannot make one statement “Joe has the right etc” then in your next post set out who can’t. Who draws that line?
It’s the Revs site and I do not know of any rules regarding who can post NOR how others can respond to their posts. A Unionist with a valid well argued point is very welcome in my own view.
Defo
Who do you think you are? – you’re not the owner of this site, you’re not my mother or my father. What you are though, is one of those fannies at the rugby who shoosh people when they jeer at the opposition kicker on his long wait and run up to slot his goal and help beat your team.
So, do me a favour, go and make a wee cuppa tea and learn to relax or I will put my fingers in my ears and go – joe, joe, joe joe, joe, joe.
Oh Christ, we’re about to undergo the mother of all union jackery campaigns.
link to archive.fo
Joe appears totes cool with UK democracy. Ya ken, that’s the type of democracy with dark money donations funding campaigns and where breaching electoral rules is the done thing for the establishment to lie and manipulate their way to retaining power to the detriment of the majority of the population.
Joe’s fine with those currently in power following “the rules” because their current trajectory suits his own agenda as he ain’t a fan of the EU.
For such an ardent stickler of procedure and operating and conforming to set guidelines, surprisingly Joe seems significantly less concerned that those in power broke “the rules” to get there in the first place…
Oh dear. What were the other 99 like!
I love this cartoon.
Re the Cherry court case… a thought, if it is not legal for the Scottish ‘part’ of WM to be prorogued because the Queen is supposed to stand up for our Sovereignty, is it possible Boris would have to re-open Westminster in order to close down Holyrood.
Ach, probably that’s too orderly.
Most likely they’ll try for a false flag incident before then and the Queens speech on 14th Oct will just declare a State of Emergency UK wide.
Defo
I agree fully that we should not engage or feed the trolls. However one day a unionist may turn up who can actually argue a logical case for the union. I have met a couple of them over the years and the debate was very worthwhile (it didn’t change my mind but I enjoyed the exchange).
I cannot recall ever encountering such a poster on wings.
RepublicofScotland @ 11.30 am
Leave aside (just for a wee while) us Celts from the equation – although we have our own justifications to abjure the so-called ‘union flag’.
I can never understand why some people of colour rejoice in it, when it’s well-established that many of their ancestors suffered so much – slavery, brutality, oppression, murder to name but four – under its colours. Why even some of them (like many of our white compatriots, too) are happy to see it as some sort of fashion chic, e.g. on smart phone covers, as sunglasses, on handbags etc. etc.
I never been able to understand this.
Give me a red dragon or saltire every time.
With you on that Clootie’ but it took less than 20 comments, and an hour after posting, and we’re off down Joe’s diversion already.
Ian B wrote recently of being tired of it all. Me too.
I come (back) below the line to be inspired and get a boost of positivity, but end up drifting away, scunnered by all the disruptors and the head cases who buy into the cybernat warrior shtick.
Drifts away…:-(
@Joe
“You people are pathetic. No, not just pathetic – dangerous, uninformed, ignorant hypocrites.”
Maybe it’s you who is out of touch, have you considered that possibility? If not, can you guess then who wrote the following article last week?
As a result, the Labour Party is now led by Jeremy Corbyn, an old-fashioned far-left socialist. And 90,000 Conservative members, whose views have become more extreme as their numbers have fallen, recently selected Boris Johnson as their new leader, and thus as the country’s new prime minister.
In doing so, they have chosen a mendacious chancer. It is no exaggeration to say that Johnson has lied his way to the top, first in journalism and then in politics. His ascent owes everything to the growing xenophobia and English nationalism that many Conservatives now espouse.
Johnson is prime minister because he has promised to deliver Brexit by the end of October, recklessly assuring the world that he will take the United Kingdom out of the European Union with or without a deal, and whatever the consequences.
link to archive.fo
It was only Chris Patten former Chairman of the Tory party and the last governor of Hong Kong and the current Chancellor of Oxford University.
He was of course one of Thatcher’s golden boys in the “glory years”. It could be YOU who is the one going around with their eyes shut, to describe you as pig ignorant would just be scratching the surface.
Folks seems to me the phrase “don’t get mad, get even” applies.
Sure the system stinks, but it’s what we have to work with. So work we must.
@defo
Oops 🙂
I really wanted an opportunity to post what Chris Patten wrote, this seemed as good a time as any and Joe gave me that excuse. Anyway onwards and upwards.
So that was the Ruth Davidson Fan Club on the streets of Govan celebrating her rejection of a green costume.
I’m not too clued up with the recent events in Glasgow, but in general, I don’t think any marching with religious undertones should be allowed in Scotland.
It’s bad enough we have sectarian issues in football; we really don’t need Scotland to succumb to political / religious sectarianism on the the streets through marching.
I say this as a catholic with Irish heritage, we are not Northern Ireland or ROI. We do not have their history, we should not bring their troubles to our land (protestant & catholic).
Scotland has enough hardships facing us in gaining independence, sectarianism on the streets will set us back massively in achieving independence.
Dominic Cummings has notified Conservative MPs that if they vote for the extension legislation next week, they will be “automatically deselected” before the next election via Conservative Central Office “even if their local organisations stand by them”.
Incredible.
Got this from Ian Dunt’s twitter account. Also there, a poster showing the time scale WM has to vote through – well anything really, before Queenie gives her speech. Extremely short, kind of unrealistic really given any legislation has to pass both houses.
Remember if it doesn’t get passed in both houses, its totally off the books once Queenie restarts government.
Best wishes to all on the march today – hope the rains misses you.
Well, if nothing else, PoliceScotland got a wee bit of practice of things to come when they’re deployed to NI. Was that the plan?
Great cartoon, Chris. Oh yes it is!
Brilliant cartoon Chris.
The posterior flexion of Ross’s right hand
His three night stubble
The coo’s eyes resigned to it’s fate
Johnson’s Churchillian stance
Ruth storming off Stage Right
Coup/Coo
I posted this a couple of days ago but perhaps Wings will indulge me a re-post seeing it’s a Saturday.
To fill Ruth’s shoes her Tory successor MUST and WILL make the Party GREAT AGAIN !
The late Rick Mayall AKA Alan B’stard delivering a brilliant first Conference speech in Perth. [smile emoji]
VIDEO:
link to tinyurl.com
@Joe says: 31 August, 2019 at 8:30 am:
” … I know its a cartoon but honestly. You people are pathetic. No, not just pathetic – dangerous, uninformed, ignorant hypocrites.”
Now that you mention, hypocrites, Joe, would you care to comment upon the hypocrisy of you claiming how a kingdom, (as in United Kingdom), can be a democracy?
In all kingdoms, (excepting the kingdom of Scotland), the monarch is legally sovereign and thus the people of all other kingdom than Scotland are therefore subjects of the monarch/crown. In Scotland the monarch is the subject of the people – that is their servant who can be legally replaced by the people.
In monarchies, Joe, the monarch’s word is law. Elizabeth Regina is legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England but not in the Kingdom of Scotland. The Kingdom of England, and so the United Kingdom, cannot therefore be a democracy.
Just to clarify, in 1688 the English parliament kept the English monarchy as legally sovereign but legally bound to delegate their sovereignty to the Parliament of England. Note – not to the people but to the parliament of England.
The Kingdom of Scotland is the one shining example of a monarchy where the monarch is the servant of the people because under the Scottish Rule of Law the people, not either the crown or the parliament, are legally sovereign.
So, Joe, how do you equate the United Kingdom as a democracy when the head of state is legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England?
Quite simply a monarchy with a legally sovereign monarch cannot possibly be a democracy.
Don’t you get it, Joe? When a voter in the English Kingdom votes in a candidate as an MP they select someone to represent the English monarch but when a Scot votes in an MP that MP represents the electorate.
That is why an MP under English law must legally swear an oath of allegiance to the crown but every Scottish MP has the choice to make a solemn affirmation instead.
You are a charlatan, Joe, and you are everything that term implies.
@ Joe – you are either very confused or trying to confuse us. The people who are funding transactivism and manipulation of elections through data harvesting are the same people i.e. right wing American billionaires. They do it for the same reason i.e. money. It makes them obscenely rich.
It is nothing to do with left wing activism.
@Clootie says: 31 August, 2019 at 8:41 am:
” … An added bonus Chrie, Joe is upset!”
Ah! Clootie, but Joe is of a kind that is permanently upset.
Rather in the same class as the rioters in Glasgow as reported in what passes for news in Scotland. Joe stands for democracy while also swearing allegiance to the parliament of
EnglandWestminster which is legally delegated by the monarchy of England as, “The Crown”.Thing is a state cannot be a democracy and a monarchy at the same time unless, as in Scotland, the monarch is not legally sovereign but the Queen of England is legally sovereign thus people like Joe, (and the OO), who are loyalists are hypocrites by claiming the United Kingdom is a democracy.
I’ve been trying to see pictures of the Persons, as the Police spokesmen
Chose to call them, who took criminal actions against a planned and permitted
March through Glasgow.
How very strange that virtually all footage from all sources seems to have no close up pictures
Of hundreds of Extreme right wing fascists throwing flares, causing breach of the peace,
Threatening behaviour, inciting violence and immobilising Glasgow’s transport infrastructure.
Why are the police just looking at them as this prevailed?
Are the Orange Rangers supporters suggesting that no flute bands should be allowed to march
On Glasgow streets or are they proposing it’s for the Orange Order only?
The decent policemen in danger due to the violent protesters trying to stop the march
Deserve better from their corrupt bosses further up the ranks.
Find them, jail them and make examples of them!
Definitely seeing an increase in posts declaring they are strongly pro-indy for Scotland but vehemently anti-EU. Not just in WoS but in other pro-indy websites also. A clear tactical move by internet britnats.
They’re still clutching at straws though. I mean, who in their right minds wants to agree with EU-hating British nationalist extremists in England?
If we end up with a NO DEAL BREXIT that’ll be the only coo to be seen on NE farms once populated with fine Aberdeen Angus beef on the hoove.
Chris, you have a lovely heart for hilarity 🙂
Especially when the darkest moments in our lives are unfolding in front of us.
A great gift and well used talent =)
Thankyou.
To the coo : ‘Look out!! It’s in front of you!!’
Proud Cybernat@12.15
That is my thinking also , this march got permission from Glasgow City Council , the police would be asked if they had any concerns about it going ahead , obviously they had none , so who are the numpties that thought this was ever going to be a walk on the park in Govan !.
@Joe says: 31 August, 2019 at 9:01 am:
@ Clootie
” … A large group of people (including political leaders) are talking about physically occupying/overturning parliament, in the face of a democratically held referendum, while demanding that their democratic rights be respected.”
Joe, unless you can prove otherwise, and you cannot, the United Kingdom and it’s parliament cannot possibly be a democracy. As your entire argument is centred upon the Westminster parliament being democratic then your argument fails.
I’ll prove the United Kingdom is not democratic for you yet again.
1 – The Queen of England, under English law, is legally sovereign.
2 – A sovereign monarch’s word is law and under English law the sovereign monarch must legally delegate her/his sovereign powers to the parliament of England.
3 – So when a person under English law votes for a candidate to be an MP then they are voting for someone to be a delegate for the monarch’s sovereignty.
4 – a legally sovereign monarchy cannot be democratic.
Can you disprove any of the above points, Joe? If not your whole argument fails.
Everything you have claimed is dependent upon the United Kingdom being a democracy but the very word kingdom proves that the United Kingdom cannot be a democracy.
Here’s more proof for you. MPs must, by law, swear an oath, of loyalty to the monarch, (or affirm their loyalty).
The Police must all do the same as must the armed forces and the security services and even the Civil Service. If charged with a crime a suspect is tried in court and the case is titled Someone vs The Crown.
Every Act of Parliament must bear the royal signature to become law.
A monarchy cannot also be a democracy – The United Kingdom is legally undemocratic. So all your arguments are mince.
Much as I hate to criticise Mr Cairns, I feel he has got it wrong here.
Received wisdom is that, rather being the front end of a pantomime coo, ‘SNP Gain” Thompson is a horse’s arse.
I’m sure you’re aware that there are protests going on around the UK over Johnson’s proroguing of parliament. The one in London seems to be gaining a bit of momentum.
link to twitter.com
Just found footage of last nights loyalist riots that have not
Been edited by the UK Media or the Police.
The vast majority are all dressed in black so indicating it
Was pre planned and co-ordinated.
The Police tried to push the crowd back of the main road
And I can see policemen being struck by fists, having missiles
Thrown at them and aggressors singing out the Billy Boys in their
Faces and yet no arrests appear to have been made???
By taking no action, I suggest these thugs are now confident
That these actions are acceptable and free from any repercussion.
Will they have any fears about doing all this tomorrow and perhaps
Racking it up a notch or two ?
I’m not Catholic nor a Celtic supporter or anti anyone who conducts themselves
Reasonably and conducts themselves with respect for their fellow citizens!
Hey JOE….I agree with you about the Brexiteers getting their brexit , I am steadfastly against brexit but I agree with you that the vote was in favour of brexit.
I have to say that when the brexit vote took place I did not think about Scotland voting to remain and England voting to leave I just assumed that the remain vote would win easily.
It was only once I was able to see that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain and England to leave that the problem sunk in nevertheless I agree with you JOE Brexiteers won that vote so brexit should happen and there is no point people arguing that Scotland and NI should be allowed to remain because we all knew it was a UK wide vote at the time of the vote.
I am very strongly of the opinion that Scotland should have a Scottish independence referendum whenever it chooses because the SNP were elected on the basis that if Scotland was dragged out of the EU because England voted for brexit a Scottish independence referendum would be held.
I see you are taking a pounding from the usual bunch on here JOE but as was said in an earlier post none of us own this website so you are free to hold your opinion and if I were you continue to argue your stance .
Only weakness resorts to insults and usually there is no reasoning with them so it’s tempting to do the same and resort to insults as well but I’ve decided to avoid that having experienced what you are experiencing and it certainly feels better to just state your opinion and reply to any insults etc with good manners and reason.
RepublicofScotland @ 9.52 am
Thankyou for posting the link to The National article on Steven Barclay’s insane move to block Scottish civil servants (and presumably all other Devolved and British civil servants) from attending EU meetings way before exit from the EU has actually taken place.
What exactly and why are these civil servants being blocked from hearing and having a say in?
Surely NOW all of Scotland’s fisher folk and farmers and foresters will see that their interests have been binned!
Indeed were binned long since by the Unionist government who NEVER saw them as anything other than THEIR milk cow.
Coos again.
Defo @11:31
The other 99 were just like you Defo – wrong.
I was right once and now I think I’m a genius…..
(maybe I was a wee bit harsh on you earlier – apologies for that)
Perhaps last night’s riots were in reality just a training exercise for those in Police Scotland destined to be detached to the PSNI. Should have ‘Kettled’ the Orcs then nicked every one of them.
Very difficult to make arrests during a riot. That enquiry and prosecution has, from a purely practical reason, to come on a later date. CCTV evidence and identification of perps is therefore essential.
You can join the EU and you can leave it freely, what the British Nationalists problem is they still want the benefits of membership of the club without paying the subs for it
You don’t get to keep using the gym if you don’t pay for it
The UK Union however is different, Scotland doesn’t pay a sub for this membership because all Scotland’s money is removed before we get it and the UK Union decide how much they want to subtract of Scotland’s money before they allow Scotland to have some of it returned
The UK Union spend what they want on whatever they decide is good for them then they borrow money from themselves to pay it back plus interest which they then add to the subraction of Scotland’s own money whether the money spent by the UK is on Scotland’s behalf or not because Scotland is treated as part of a whole country as opposed to a partner country in it’s own right
This is then not a Union of countries but a monopoly of one country over others dictating law finance culture and governance
So then how do you leave a Union that dictates you’re not a Union when it comes to the decision of leaving that Union that is in effect a Union by popular title and acclaim only
It’s a bit like calling your house a name like maybe Dunrobbin or The Arches when of course neither of these names may literally mean you were a robber or you have actual Arches on your house, it just means that’s a name you call something and in actuality is just a postcode so the postie knows where to drop your letters off
Scotland in this UK Union is treated as a postal address and depending where you live in Scotland you may be charged more for this delivery service
Terms and conditions apply
It’s clear that the policy , referred to by the police commander , of allowing peaceful marches as allowed by the law of the land , is ineffective because these marches are not peaceful.
Orange order marches are not peaceful because they upset people and even though those people do not confront the marchers it is clear that these marches are in no way peaceful.
Now we are seeing the orange order people attacking the Irish republican marchers in Glasgow and the question asked is why are Irish republican marchers allowed to march in Scotland ?
The thing is these Irish republican marchers are folk who live in Scotland .
The question also needs to be asked why are people who live in Scotland and are in orange order flute bands allowed to travel to Northern Ireland to take part in marches over there, it’s certainly causing disruption and anger that they are allowed to march through catholic housing estates in Northern Ireland .
These marchers, on both sides are causing a breach of the peace and worse it’s time for the law to recognise and accept this and ban them from marching in public places.
Let them march in unpopulated areas at 7am or 8am on a Sunday where they will not upset others or ban them completely.
This is just gobsmacking from Steve Barclay Secretary of State for Brexit.
The car industry’s ‘just in time’ supply chains rely on fluid cross-Channel trade routes. >1,100 trucks filled with car parts cross seamlessly from EU into UK each day. We need to start talks now on how we make sure this flow continues if we leave without a deal.
link to twitter.com
Whit! He has only just realised that now??? We’re screwed.
@Doug at 1.01pm
Aye, you’re not wrong. It is permeating through to wider society too, though generally easily countered.
Various folk I’ve had conversations with over the past few weeks have come out with the most bizarre and tedious complaints about the smallest of EU regulations which in general are for the greater good ie. Health, safety, welfare related matters.
These folk seem myopic to focus on their one wee bugbear and want to leave the “bad EU” because of it, while the bigger picture shows they will then be under the rule of a UK government that certainly seems intent on trashing society in numerous ways which will have way more impact on their lives than a solitary EU reg. eg. Access to free at point of need health services, raising retirement age, etc.
@defo says: 31 August, 2019 at 12:00 pm:
” … Ian B wrote recently of being tired of it all. Me too.
I come (back) below the line to be inspired and get a boost of positivity, but end up drifting away, scunnered by all the disruptors and the head cases who buy into the cybernat warrior shtick.”
Aye! Well, defo, get this – you do not cure anything by ignoring it. If you have symptoms of illness, like perhaps cancer, the very worse thing to do is to ignore those bad symptoms. The best thing is to face the symptoms and deal with them.
Contrary to the common belief these people are not trolls for trolls have no real motive they just troll to annoy. Those coming here to Wings are not here to just annoy, they have an agenda and will not just go away if ignored.
Slightly off topic, what is the process for choosing a new leader for the Scottish Conservatives? Is it the same sort of long process as the UK tory leadership, if so then I will probably lose the will to live!!!
link to twitter.com
A series of tweets by Marc Owen Jones on the weaponisation of Twitter. Very interesting, and helps answer the question ‘is propaganda a war?’ Absolutely.
“[Thread] I analysed around 13,000 retweets of Boris Johnson’s tweet that read “The referendum result must be respected. We will leave the EU on 31st October. #LeaveOct31″. He tweeted this twice, once on 15th Aug and again on 27th. The following is what I found: #StopTheCoup”
According to Jackson Carlaw you will have to wait till 2020 for a new leader .
Our status as being, once again, an independent nation state. It’s coming. You can smell it in the air. It’s within touching distance.
We’re almost there folks. No taking any feet off the gas tho.
The chickens are coming home to roost as the reality of a no deal Brexit starts to become apparent.
A ‘Brexit bonanza’ for UK fishing? That’s a fishy tale with an unhappy ending
The industry may become one of the starkest examples no-deal folly, with those dependent on EU markets facing devastation…
A myth has been propagated by Brexiteers. There is a single “British fishing industry” which will benefit from reclaiming the “60/70/80% of British fish” caught by EU boats.
No, there isn’t. There are competing interests. English v Scottish; deep-sea fishing v inshore fishing; industrial v family-scale boats; fishers v processors. Some of the most vibrant, locally important and ecologically respectful parts of the UK industry have nothing to gain and everything to lose from Brexit.
They depend on shellfish, lobsters, crabs and langoustines (crayfish) that are quota-free or are overwhelmingly allocated to the UK. More than 80% is sold to the continent (mostly Spain and France). This trade has grown large because of the border-free EU single market.
Post-Brexit, trucks arriving in France with fish caught by scores of small boats will have to supply scores of “origin” and “health” documents – one for each boat and each catch. Traders will have to find UK local inspectors in working hours to verify the origin of the seafood and vets to certify its quality.
link to archive.fo
Another Brexit fantasy of the forecast boom for British fishing has been exposed as just another Brexit lie. Somehow I think then when the reality lands on Brexits biggest supporters they’re not going to like it one little bit.
The voters that asked for Brexit will just have to suck it up like good little sheep. We can make other plans and that gets more likely by the day.
@Douglas says:31 August, 2019 at 2:06 pm:
” … Slightly off topic, what is the process for choosing a new leader for the Scottish Conservatives? Is it the same sort of long process as the UK tory leadership, if so then I will probably lose the will to live!!!”
I think they draw straws, Douglas, and the one with the shortest straw is forced to become leader.
O/T:
14 minutes ago from YouTube:-
link to youtube.com
More O/T:
Sound is poor but here it is. Joanne Cherry explaining the Scottish Court case:-
link to youtube.com
Well you’ve got Carlaw who believes he’s a Conservative but dim then you’ve got Tomkins who is a careerist say anything do anything to advance his career person
I say person when I refer to Tomkins because he’s not a politician, in fact he’s barely human he’s a rabid ladder climber and he’ll crawl up anybody’s backside to get there, so on balance the next Tory leader in Scotland will likely be Tomkins because if Carlaw gets in his way Tomkins will move him out of the way with some snidey maneuver, and the nasty right wingers will back him up
So yes Boris Tomkins for Scottish Tory leader (oh he’ll defo change his name to Boris)
Johnson & allies have indeed staged a ‘coup’, he has effectively run rings around the opposition who out manoeuvred have thrown a collective hissy fit.
Given the UK does not possess a formal written constitution, he has done nothing unconstitutional, he’s just played a rather clever hand.
Who are the bumbling idiots now?
Brexit probably with no deal awaits and the shocking possibility that Johnson might win a workable majority were there to be a GE is scaring the proverbial out of the buttoned up, self righteous matrons on the margins.
Even more O/T:-
Ian Blackford from YouTube less than 20 minutes ago:-
link to youtube.com
A quick look at #Dunfermline seems to suggest the march is going well. lol
link to twitter.com
Surely Govan last night was just proof that the Ulsterisation of Scottish Politics which was begun by (T)Ruthless has now moved into the next phase… maybe she doesn’t like what is coming down the line towards us and that is why she has stood down.
James Kelly should hang his head in shame and fingers crossed for the match today- Police will have their work cut out trying to put this genie back in the bottle and it’s possible NO marches will be the outcome.
Seems that each day is bringing a new ‘shock’ to ‘British’ politics and I wonder just how much of it is pre-planned and authorised by powers held elsewhere.
We knew they would throw everything at us and it has to be done in a way that seems natural so as not to arouse any suspicions.
How do they stop all these pesky Indy marches – easy, Govan last night has just demonstrated their tactics perfectly.
O/T:
Dunfermline live stream right now:-
link to youtube.com
@Dan
LOL 🙂
Auld bob, @1:18 i thought you more than most would know that Royal Navy Personnel do not swear loyalty to the Monarch.
Thanks to the unionist branch acolytes at Holyrood, sectarian violence in Scotland has raised its ugly profile. Apparently a Mr Fraser, has retweeted a link to the sash.
link to mobile.twitter.com
I see posts above suggesting AbiesAlba (as was) as Scottish Tory “leader”….?
In 2014 it’d be beyond parody to have someone pretending to be a gay Slovenian pouring scorn on indyref1 becoming Scots Tory leader but we’ve long since departed down some sort of rabbit blackhole in political terms.
We live in “interesting times”, gods help us all 🙁
You can work out the “Caesar” autoedit yourselves, probably saves me from a court case anyway 😀
Doug @ 13:01,
Well observed there. It was happening before, but it’s being amplified now. Trying to peel off the dwindling Yes-Leavers.
But it’s becoming ever more obvious by the day that to be a Leaver is to subscribe to a BritNat power grab in which we in Scotland will all be the rear end of pantomime cows if we don’t get out PDQ.
Scratch anyone who rants on about the “EU dictatorship” and you’ll discover someone who has no problem whatever with blocking Scotland from leaving the UK. And we had one of them on here early off-topic rudely calling us “hypocrites”?!
The difficulty with the Independence marches is that we’re all Catholics
We’ve got Protestant Catholics, Catholic Catholics, Hindu Catholics, Muslim Catholics, Black Catholics, Brown Catholics, White Catholics, there are even some Chinese Catholics now
So you can see how the British Nationalist sectarian bigots can get confused by all us Multi Denominational Catholics
If you’re not one of them, you’re a Catholic, they don’t do discrimination it’s too complicated
Dr Jim
I humbly request to be recognised as an Atheist Catholic.
@republicofscotland, 9.52am
Re: Stephen Barclay’s decision not to allow Scottish civil servants to attend EU meetings From now on we will only go to the meetings that really matter, reducing attendance by over half and saving hundreds of hours.
So, agriculture and fishing don’t matter to the UK government?
Time the Scottish Government start acting as if we are already independent and turn up at these EU meetings to represent Scotlands interests.
“Scottish officials regularly attend EU meetings about devolved matters in Brussels – agriculture and fishing are the big ones – but the UK is saying as the member state they won’t send officials unless it’s about major national issues such as security.”
link to thenational.scot
So not UK Civil Servants in place of Scottish ones but NO CIVIL SERVANTS AT ALL!!
I’m a Catholic, I was indoctrinated at a young age and through my life I’ve worshipped loads of the furry meowing critters, Tabby, Ginger, Tortoiseshell, Persian, Abyssinian tree climbing, you name it, I’ve stroked it.
We had so many cats that at one point I believe two kittens went to Muriel Gray, but they were too wild so we got them back.
Probably for the best as she’d most likely have set fire to them…
Thepnr @ 14:23,
Well said. There are those who have a far better handle on this than me, but I understand that the West Coast fisherfolk have in any case always had a rather different outlook to the EU issue than the NE “Cosa Nostra”.
A proto-independent Scotland will no doubt need and wish to enter negotiations for EU membership in its own right, rather than as a neglected and exploited coat-tail of England, and it’s just fine by me that the people of scotland (all the people) get a say in accepting or rejecting it, f that’s what it takes.
But if we wait too long, there won’t be (eg.) any native West Coast fishers or processors left to take any advantage of whatever transpires.
That’s the danger of delaying too long. It can create “facts on the ground” that override all the theories and hopes. That’s what the BritNat-Leaver coup is ultimately all about.
Dan @ 15:45,
I think you mean Cat-a-holic, Dan, no? =laugh=
(These damned spell checkers. =grin=)
Dr Jim, ive been discriminated , im a Pastarafarian Catholic.
I think some people are their own worst enemies. Here’s an example of muddled thinking (in my opinion) from and article for tomorrows Observer.
“Mark Wallace, a former soldier, can’t see the problem with proroguing parliament. “It’s not anti-democratic at all,” he insists. He voted Leave but he’s particularly keen to get out of the EU as soon as possible because, he says, the medicines he needs are becoming increasingly difficult to get. But won’t that be a much greater problem if the UK leaves without a deal?
“No,” he says, arguing that the country will then be free to make whatever arrangements it wants.”
What can you say in response to that? Someone that believes Brexit will make it easier to get the medicines he needs. What can he possibly think is preventing him from getting them now while in the EU?
There’s an awful lot of muddled thinking like that out there. Personally, I blame Nicola sturgeon and the SNP!
Full article in case you’re interested.
link to archive.fo
A few short vids (less than 2 mins each) uploaded to YT today.
Apologies if they have been posted before but thought it’d be handy to have links in one place.
Ian Blackford.
link to youtube.com
Joanna Cherry.
link to youtube.com
Nicola Sturgeon.
link to youtube.com
OT if you want to know how and why Brexit is being driven, the movie Vice is an interesting incite into the way the far right operates. It’s the story of Dick Cheney’s rise to absolute power.
A few years ago I would have doubted its relevance to the UK, however recent events are all from the far right ‘grab power and make money’ instructions manual.
What could Westminster do if the Scottish civil servants just turned up to the EU meetings? Sack them all? Lock them up?
So they should go. Stand up for scotland
Dr Jim
Just to really confuse them ..I’m an ex-catholic Catholic !
Dr Jim says:
It’s true. The dark fringe of extreme militant ‘religion’ is Scotland sees the world as being one of them, or not, and not defaults to Catholic.
I remember being in a student flat many many decades ago at a party. There was a large poster of Christ of Saint John of the Cross by Salvador Dalí which hangs in Kelvingrove. Somehow a non student gate crasher found himself in front of the poster. He went berserk and totally lost the plot believing himself to have become isolated it a nest of Catholics!
The poster wasn’t there for any particular religious reasons, just celebrating one of Glasgow’s great art treasures. I doubt if anyone present knew who was, or wasn’t, Catholic. But to this guy, it was red rag to a bull. Fortunately it is one of the few times I have ever witnessed up close and personal just how totally deranged some Scots’ think can be.
Really, you want to just stay away from them!
@robertknight says: 31 August, 2019 at 3:36 pm:
” … I humbly request to be recognised as an Atheist Catholic”
Aye! Robert, but is nobody going to speak up for the Agnostic Catholics?
@cirsium says: 31 August, 2019 at 3:38 pm:
” … So, agriculture and fishing don’t matter to the UK government?”
Perhaps they plan to revive the WWII, “Dig for Victory”, campaign?
link to bbc.co.uk
“What happens now? Four scenarios for Brexit’s weirdest week “
link to archive.is
Firstly, it fails to mention the Court of Session case. But hey hoe, it’s from the London centric Guardian.
That said, none of the options seem very likely!
The main weapon of the unionist (after division) is to turn people away from politics to create low turnouts. The control of Political choices and decisions are how they win.
How do we win! The same way Ghandi did – you keep challenging their legitimacy. Day after Day. You just keep going.
I come to Wings to be assured other like souls are doing that.
I go to AUOB marches to be surrounded with that positive vibe.
They want politics to be boring. It often is but it will always decide the World that your children will grow up in.
Dr Jim – I like it.
But whitaboot about the anarchist catholics?
Let me see if I’ve got it right.
Leavers voted for Brexit in order to reassert the sovereignty of the UK Parliament; a Parliament which is now going to be suspended at the whim of an unelected Prime Minister and the approval of a non-elected Head of State, so its Members will not be able to discuss how that (alleged) reassertion of sovereignty is going to affect them.
Correct?
Shamocracy – Disunited Kingdumb style.
@Robert J. Sutherland says:31 August, 2019 at 3:45 pm:
” … That’s the danger of delaying too long. It can create “facts on the ground” that override all the theories and hopes. That’s what the BritNat-Leaver coup is ultimately all about.”
Yes but there is one wee problem about all that. Who is the best judge of when is the right time and when is it too late?
Should we trust the First Minister of Scotland’s parliament, The leader of the Scottish National
istParty or someone commenting on someone else’s blog on the internet?Gee! That’s a difficult decision for a person wanting to decide who is best placed to know what’s going on at the cutting edge of the political scene in Scotland?
It’s a hilarious state of affairs this anti everybody who isn’t one of them religions when they all go on holiday to nice warm Catholic countries and wander around their churches quite happily viewing all the murals architecture and stained glass and they don’t try to kill all those folks
Of course it could be that it doesn’t occur to them that the same folk serving them their dinners and drinks and cleaning their hotel rooms, entertaining them, flying the planes that took them to these nice places are not staffed by the same people as *THEM*
As we’ve seen by this thread alone we’ve added some denominations Atheist Catholics, Agnostic Catholics and no doubt there’ll be many more, and it kinda makes you think that these anti everybody Catholic haters are in the extreme minority and are in fact No Rapeepel at all
It’s also funny that if you’re a football playing Catholic or indeed the Catholic manager who plays for their team you get a free pass for the day
But woe betide that Catholic Manager or player should he not perform to the satisfaction of the Anti Them religion then the free pass to *Them* is withdrawn and that Catholic becomes a Catholic Catholic again, and goes straight on to the hate list
The rules in the Anti Catholic religion are simple, if in doubt treat everybody as if they’re not them
These ideas must come from no religious text i’ve ever seen, read, or heard of in existence ever, leading me to believe something has gone wrong with the theory of evolution in the case of this group of people
@Thepnr says: 31 August, 2019 at 4:11 pm:
” … Personally, I blame Nicola sturgeon and the SNP!”
Oh! Why not? Seems like almost everyone else in Scotland, leavers, remainers, don’t knows and everything in between blames her as well – another one on the blamers side will hardly make any difference in the final count.
Clootie 4.59pm spot on clootie. When im a bit despondent thinking that does anyone in Scotland care about indy.once i step of that train at glasgow central from euston, head for kelvingrove park, see those saltires ,.atmosphere , and ever growing crowd, i know i am with likeminded people, and i am reassured that our nation will one day be free.
For the record: In Scotland, there is only one kind of sectarianism – the anti-Catholic variety. It’s been that way since the Protestant Reformation in Scotland in the 16th Century.
The Unionist media is compelled to distort this truth, which it does by means of the ‘both sides are as bad as the other’ meme, and by conflating religious belief and football rivalry.
The English Ruling Class is of course, more than happy to maintain Scotland’s so-called ‘sectarian divide’ because a divided electorate is a defeated electorate, when elections come around.
Then, add the all pervasive British anti-Irish racism and the English Establishment can sit back and relax. Power over Scotland – sorted.
Independence is not an option. It’s absolutely essential.
@Tatu3 says: 31 August, 2019 at 4:30 pm:
What could Westminster do if the Scottish civil servants just turned up to the EU meetings?
Well they could stop their pay for being AWOL, sack them then refuse them welfare benefits for making themselves unemployed.
Manandboy 5.21pm never a truer word.
Dan 3.45pm. I’m an agnostic catholic Dan, and I’ve stroked a few pussies in my time. I like persians.
@galamcennalath says: 31 August, 2019 at 4:57 pm:
” … Firstly, it fails to mention the Court of Session case.”
They do not need to be London centric to not tell it correctly. Any Scottish rag I read reports the Scots Judge as having refused the request when the truth is the judge just refused the interim interdict but left it to be decided at the previously stated day.
Brilliant cartoon.
Robert Peffers @ 17:07,
Fair comment. But happily this isn’t a fascist statelet with an autocrat for leader (despite occasional BritNat calumnies), so the views of its citizens, as expressed freely in public, have to count for something as well, no?
Otherwise how could anyone in a position to influence matters know the true state of public opinion? (They might even be misled into thinking we were still asleep instead of being fully ready for decisive action.)
I was going to say that hes the wrong end of the cow – but maybe it’s safer for the other end that way.
@Welsh Sion says: 31 August, 2019 at 5:06 pm:
” … Let me see if I’ve got it right.”
Did you forget the wee bit that the United Kingdom couldn’t be a democracy in the first place as the Queen of the Kingdom of England is legally sovereign and a legal sovereign’s word is law.
So even although the monarchy, in 1688, had to legally delegate their sovereign powers to the parliament of England to administer on the sovereign’s behalf you cannot have a democracy and a sovereign monarchy at the same time. So you are correct Westminster’s democracy is indeed shambolic.
manandboy 5.21pm
A perfect description of where we are at.
British rule uses sons of the manse like Broon to keep it going.
I wonder what secrets the establishment know about The Broon?
Robert Peffers says:
If they do mention interim interdict, it’s qualified as “an interim interdict is what Scots call an injunction”, or similar construct.
Why not “an interim interdict which is called an injunction in England”?
This matters. It’s not pedantic. It’s one of their little tricks. They present the English version as the default, and the Scots version as different/non standard.
They will usually avoid highlighting difference, however if forced to, they adopt English=normal but Scottish=deviant language.
robertknight says:
31 August, 2019 at 3:36 pm
Dr Jim
I humbly request to be recognised as an Atheist Catholic.
Naaaa, yir eyebrows are shifting the gither when ye speak. Definitely an agnostic catholic.
@Robert J. Sutherland says:31 August, 2019 at 5:46 pm:
” … so the views of its citizens, as expressed freely in public, have to count for something as well, no?”
Oh! Come on, Robert, you know very well that I have answered that one till I’m yellow in the face , (I’d have said blue but after those riots … … ),
But I digress.
In the first place we do not have just one administration interested in what the people of Scotland think, we have two, and they are in a political war with each other. Thus to use an open forum to be in any way critical to one administration is to, at very least, boost the moral of the other.
I have also pointed out that airing grievance against one administration on a public forum is not likely to make the slightest impression and further pointed out that every SNP MEP, MP, MSP and councillor is contactable via email, telephone and snail-mail and their contact details readily available.
Not to mention that anyone can join the SNP, attend branch meetings and each one has the same number of votes as Nicola Sturgeon herself. Anyone, with a seconder, can raise a matter at branch meetings and that matter must be recorded in the minutes and dealt with. All of which will gain notice whereas dripping constantly on a blog will only assist the opposition and they will, without doubt, act upon it. Westminster spends a fortune upon security services for just those purposes. Some of which I’d warrant you have not even heard about.
Wings is the best known Scottish political blog on the internet. Do you really imagine that the Westminster security services doesn’t have it under close surveillance?
I am regularly accused of slavishly following the SNP but the truth is there is probably no one else on Wings that has, over many years, clashe4d with the SNP hecht heid ains. I didn’t do it on public forums, newspapers, TV station or Radio phone ins.
The fact remains that every one on Wings who is critical of the SNP or even states the SNP are doing nothing is music to the ears of the Unionists. So sad when the critic could email Nicola Sturgeon directly.
” … Otherwise how could anyone in a position to influence matters know the true state of public opinion?
Have I not just explained how here just once more and explained it countless other times on Wings before?
I read wings and sometimes there are more critics of the FM/SG/SNP on here that I can find on the Scotsman, Daily Mail and Express combined. If it can depress a die hard like myself how do you imagine it affects a disenchanted Labour voter looking for something better to support? Hell! After reading Wings some days they would instantly go off and support the LibDems or even Tories. And don’t say I have not said all this countless times before.
Sectarianism has always been the classic bogeyman. Billy Connolly got it right for my parents’ generation. It was a fact that they were told an independent Scotland would be a protestant country and they would end up like the Catholics in Norther Ireland. I was young but I remember clearly my dad saying that is why he voted against Devolution in 1979, nevermind independence.
At some point this has all changed, maybe it is the Union flag all over Better Together and the simple fact that to be an independence supporter is to be against the mere existence of a British state. I welcome that but it leaves a legacy of desperation. I was brought up in Glasgow and we simply never questioned the reality that the Orange Lodge could do as they please.
My only gratitude to the Catholic church is that I am now a fully fledged atheist so I have no drum to beat for the idiots that still think that is an identity worth protecting. However, I know without a shadow of a doubt that the sad,but diminishing, “persons” who will riot under a Union flag, come what may, will not ever ever ever ever be persuaded that they are on the wrong side of history.
They will try to intimidate us and make us think that we might be opening up a can of worms in pursuing independence. Remember one thing. Loyalism does simply not know what it is loyal to. If they riot against the police as they have done in Northern Ireland then they riot against the forces of the crown. We know that makes no sense.
The Scottish police are not political. They know that to go in hard will only fuel the flames. Let’s show them up for what they are – loyal to f***k all. For the next round of Orange matches we should ask the police how we will arrange counter demos and maybe then they will put a stop to this.
The one thing the Intelligence services fear is other people’s intelligence
Robert peffers 6.52pm. Sometimes you call a spade a spade Bob, but your posts are ones I always read, and always on the money. So keep on posting.
Forced myself to watch both the BBC and STV news, the riot in Glasgow is all Glasgow Councils fault or those kafolics. Not one person Interviewed in the street or of the Unionist Parties mentioned that ‘The counter Demonstration” was by morons of an unionist/British Nationalist persuasion.
On another subject , The good news is that our wee (actually well attended) Pro EU Demo today in Brodick , I spoke to several people whom I have never met before, One shall we say Mature lady whilst being a Yesser had never attended a March or Demo in her life , a few others had never attended an event organised by the local SNP branch before and most surprising to me was a local who I unfriended on facebook as he was continually sniping at the SNP Government and/or Independence. He was not attending the Demo but was passing by , he asked what the demo was about and told me that he was now voting for yes and said the referendum could not come soon enough.
Things are moving.
galamcennalath @ 18:09,
It’s because they see themselves as addressing a purely English audience. Most of the time we only really exist in their minds as a kind of theoretical construct. Existing in principle but not really there as actual listeners.
Spend any time listening to R4 (or the English Home Service as I have taken to calling it) and you are left in no doubt about the tangible (yet entirely self-unaware) insularity. I could give loads of trivial yet telling examples, eg. introducing a reform of their divorce law with an “our” prefix.
If anything it has become more pronounced of late, as if the broadcasters have already tacitly accepted that we are gone, and have dropped even a pretence of trying.
Along with dr Jim, manandboy, Daisy Walker, thepnr, effijy, and many others to numerous to mention.
Should have said great posts from these folks on wings.
BBC Reporting Scotland
The chancer that is the former FM of Scotland Lord MacConnell turns up stating that we need strong political leadership to put an end to sectarianism and we need to work together.
“Let’s get together and put sectarianism in the dustbin of history.” Says the Lord.
That would be very nice. Pity his own party was involved in removing the OBF law which has certainly helped spike sectarian/thuggery behaviour in recent months. Not a word of the removal of this law by the Britnat media. You would think it never existed.
What exactly did the good Lord do about the problem when he was FM? Britnats have some brassnecks
@Robert J. Sutherland at 3:48 pm
Pfft! Pedant. Next you’ll be telling me “dogmatic” doesn’t describe the perpetual process of getting a new dog each time the the current one expires.
A process not dissimilar to the never ending Labour Branch Office in Scotchland leadership circus. Just watch, as soon as what’s his name… eh… Ryvita Laxative? goes, there will be another. Whack-a-mole stylée.
@Bobp at 5:35 pm
Easy tiger?
Things are getting fairly heated on a global scale with the few psychopathic arsehole factions trying to win the end game of monopoly, but we may be witnessing the slow awakenings of the catatonic agnostic pacifists.
Truly a potentially massive (voting) force of yet undetermined capabilities, that have patiently remained stealthily dormant, just waiting for the right moment to mobilise and unleash their ire on those few that have caused so many issues for so many people and our planet.
Dan @ 19:25,
Heh, heh. Touché!
Dan @ 19:25,
Yeh, given the turnover of NorthBritLab leaders, “Laxative” seems a very appropriate generic name. Good call. Hardly worth remembering the real ones these days.
By the time it finally gets round to (their) James Kelly, the whole world will know the northern branch office is fatally “holed below the waterline”. Even El Gordo will know it. (That’s assuming of course there are any left by then.)
Gordie Broon didn’t say who he was talking to in Brussels. Was it a janitor or tea lady?
The ultra unionist Jack McConnell pops up on the unionist STV news offering his help to fight sectarianism.
Tell you what Mr Ermine Vermin, if you want to help,get back the £1.5 billion quid of Scotland’s money that you handed back to Westminster in exchange for yourknighthood.
@Robert J. Sutherland
If things work out for Labour as they’re currently looking in Scotland they’ll be back down to a single MP, I’d prefer none but can accept just the one.
As far as Rupert Lush is concerned I doubt he’ll be around to stand again in 2021 and if he does I’d hope that a new Independence party formed by the Rev will make a big dent in his MSP’s too. Can’t be long now before they continually poll less than 10% of the vote in Scotland.
Well done to the Labour “big beasts” like James Kelly, Anas Sarwar, Jackie Baillie, Iain Gray, Johann Lamont, Neil Findlay etc. ect. ect. LOL
Robert Peffers @ 6.52
I know that is your position on the subject Robert as you pointed out you’ve said so often enough.
But that’s not the whole picture.
Firstly.. There’s others who disagree,and that’s their right.
Secondly…There’s this site,which is very clear is not an SNP site,but rather a political discussion site. Not everyone here is an SNP member!
There is, as I’m sure you know and appreciate a social aspect to this site, and that by definition means that people who post also air their doubts, fears, worries and their need to vent.
The opponent’s of Independence may very well try to pick up on a chink of dissent…. but just as credible, the SNP may also be using us a weather vain of response to their actions and projections of their intentions?
Therefore,it seems to me, the best thing we can do is not drive ourselves to distraction trying to combat any of it,and just be as honest as we can warts and all.
It could just be that the SNP will get a dam sight more from our musings than the British state ever could!
They (SNP) need to know how we really feel and should be able to depend on us Wingers to say it like it is..
Thirdly…. My late daughter in law worked for the Scottish Government.Her job was to answer the emails and other correspondence on behalf of the Justice Secretary (Humsa).
He never actually saw any of them. So I cannot imagine that the arrangements are any different for the First Minister.
So an email to Nicola while worth while by volume is no a singular option!
And lastly….
While I have only a bit of an idea what went on last night,and I’m not even going to look because I don’t want to rake it all back up…. I know that, you know that you can be crotchety and you’ve claimed the right to be at your age
( nae argument there) but with rights come responsibility and that means sometimes remembering that ye are not always answering a squadie from the 77th but mibbi a Lady Winger with her own concerns venting to her Wings family. Staying factual and staying polite are not the same thing as fine well ye know,and I’m sure hurting another Winger is never your intention Robert and you have the language skills not to do so.
Remember how much patience you had with Rock?
We all wondered how you did it!
And we admired that.
Don’t lose that respect now Robert,not when we’re so close and you’ve a part to play!
Anyhoo…. I hope you are keeping well and getting geared up for the Campaign x
Robert J Sutherland: I think the real one was “ExLax”
Looked like chocolate but gave you the shits. Bit like SLab.
O/t Great rally in Dunfermline today despite the weather. HOOP demo at Holyrood on Thursday 11am-5pm ish. Perth next Saturday.
Keep the pressure on.
See also there is a petition doing the rounds that wants a 2/3 majority for Indy for it to be recognised. Fuck off might be an appropriate response!
Enjoyed my day at the Dunfermline march with my ‘high maintenance’
granddaughter. Weather was fine warm even.
Joined the march at the top of the New Row after we walked up the steep hill after stupidly parking near the Alhambara theatre and the Royal British Legion Club both sporting Union flags.
We were a bit puggled as we started in behind the march 🙁
However after that it was downhill all the way into the Glen.
(A few 20? Union Folk) demonstrating on the pavement to the side.
Good crowd (much higher than last time there) plenty of stalls and music from the Blue Bonnets and various singers.
Touched the Wings hairy string again (been a while) most folk I spoke to were positive although wondering what the WM will get up to next.
Couple of folk talking up for the candidates only on the list as per WoS theory. One saying that even some SNP MSP and councillors dont really understand the D’Hondt system. I nodded sagely 🙂
Counted 4 WOS flags among the flutters and plenty Saltire and Rampant Lions, even a few Unicorns and many various others including a St Georgie.
Lots of lurkers for Wings a few I talked to enjoyed the read but were not confident of expressing strong views.
Pensioners for Independence Group busy and although I am well up on most of that I got the full Monty…it felt rude to interrupt the man and lady in full flow so I was patient and took it all in.
Best part was being surrounded and ushered in by the bikers all the way from Halbeath into Dunfermline (granddaughter counted 50+) and many folk catching the sight from their posh Cherry Bank hooses too.
Donated to Wings Tent and some others and finally was rooked by my Granddaughter for a few extras…skint until tomorrow.
Great day! 🙂
@call me dave
Thanks for the excellent report, a wee bit positivity never goes amiss. Glad to hear you and the granddaughter had a great day.
I think many will appreciate this fine article.
link to debdahvibez.wordpress.com
Particularly the comments on Scotland and NI
Enjoy.
@Mac 9:03pm
I’ve seen the video at the end before and it just brought it right back how angry I was at the time, and now I’m bloody angry all over again because I felt it to be genuine but everybody dismissed it as dodgy and absolutely nothing was ever made of it
The thing is if that film was dodgy you’d have thought the authorities would have wanted to charge the individual responsible for attempting to perpetrate an electoral fraud but again nothing ever was made of it
And that’s what’s bloody dodgy
frogesque @ 20:28,
Ah, the “poison pill” option re-surfacing again. Predictably. It’s only too clear who is consuming ever-increasing quantities of that venerable product you mentioned!
Liz g
Thank you for confirming that Scottish Govt ministers rarely even see email complaints from Scottish citizens.
I have pointed out the abysmal service the Scottish Govt gives complainants on several occasions.
In my experience, unless your complaint is sent via an MSP you will receive a civil service: Piss off, we don’t want to know response. ( I paraphrase).
Send it via an MSP and the service is slightly better: your piss off, we don’t want to know response is signed by the Cabinet Secretary’s signature.
So, that’s part of the reason why, when it comes to Scottish Parliament elections, my response to voting SNP is: piss off, I don’t want to know.
I continue to support independence but, as Alex Salmond also discovered, when the boot was on the other foot, his and subsequent Scottish Govts are tainted by lack of fair investigation of complaints.
That applies to ALL public services in Scotland.
The SPSO Ombudsman, a deliberately crooked monster created by Labour and beloved by subsequent SNP Govts, is as impartial with the Scottish Establishment of public services (including the Scottish Govt) , as the Queen is when it comes to Tory Govts and the British Establishment.
Colin Alexander @ 22:30,
Oh Colin, you are a caution. You really (truly) want an icecream but you insist in cutting off your hand before reaching out for it. =sigh=
And just “part of” the reason? The other presumably being you actually prefer one of the Nirvana splitterists or the Red/Blue/Orange Tories? (I can never make up my mind which, you dreadful shapeshifter, you!)
@AnneMarie D says: 31 August, 2019 at 6:57 pm:
” … Sectarianism has always been the classic bogeyman.”
My old Grand dad had it right, AnneMarie D, (and he died in 1949), and spoke about both the Loyalists and the Catholics and particularly sectarianism of Glasgow Football supporters.
I had asked him why these people were always fighting each other. His reply was that if they weren’t fighting about football or religion they would have to invent something else to fight over. I do believe he was right.
Robert J. Sutherland
The number one reason I don’t vote SNP for Holyrood is the local SNP MSP. I was let down by him. The guy couldn’t look me in the face when he recognised me at SNP branch meetings as the same person who came to him looking for assistance as a constituent. At least he had the shame to look guilty.
My opinion of the SNP MP is the opposite. I’ve ALWAYS voted for her. The last time I voted for her, it was because of her personally, not because she’s SNP because the SNP gave me no reason to vote for them in their 2017 GE campaign.
I don’t want an SNP strong at Westminster, I want ALL Scots MPs OUT OF Westminster.
—————–
Come on SNP, give me a reason to vote for the party. Seek a mandate to dissolve the Union if an election comes before an indyref.
The Unionist Party’s manifestos could have been written on a fag packet since they were almost entirely free of anything meaningful to the electorate in Scotland.
It comprised a single battle cry attacking the most progressive and universally admired politician in Scotland Nicola Sturgeon. Stating:
” Scots are fed up being persecuted by the SNP leader who is solely intent on getting independence at any cost. As a result, Scotland is suffering hugely. The majority of Scottish voters wish to remain in the British union, despite Nicola Sturgeon’s latest demands for a Scottish referendum.”
This was entered on the internet in the form of a petition requiring a simple yes/no answer.
The signed petition would be presented to the Westminster government, by the Scottish Home Secretary for debate in the House of Commons, dependent on the number of signatures gained.
link to caltonjock.com
Colin Alexander @ 22:58,
Sorry about your personal misfortune, but normal (political) service can only resume after the constitutional elephant in the room has been removed. Everything else at the moment is secondary/
Though you do illustrate en passant the danger of excessive delay: the inevitable accretion of individual discontents with an established government (no matter how good) leading to an eventual drain in support and everything that goes with it.
In the meantime though on here, you keep on “slip, sliding awaaaaay….”
Colin Alexander @ 10.30
That’s no exactly what I said….
No minister in ANY Government could read all their correspondence.
That’s just simple logistics
That’s why they have staff.
That staff also makes the minister aware of anything that they need to know in regarding their correspondence,that’s what they do and they are good at it.
Especially the Scottish Government Staff,that’s why the Scottish Government are so on the ball and up to speed.
So it is worthwhile writing and, if you mibbi wrote something worthwhile…
Who knows?? every letter is read…
Nevertheless..
Thank You for the opportunity to clarify.
To Colin Alexander …my opinion is that I set aside personal wants for the benefit of my country ,Scotland.
It’s the future of every person to come that I want Scottish independence for.
If I’m still alive when we get independence even better
All that stuff about your MSP doing you a wrong and not looking you in the eye is in my opinion the wrong way to go surely it’s the SNP you are voting for and Scotland’s freedom you are voting for and not some personal service you hoped to get from an MSP
Come on look further
If we all voted only for those things we personally benefit from or those MPs or MSPs that can do something to help us in our personal lives we would never collectively vote for the most important thing Scottish independence , we would always have our vote deflected by some personal grievance
Those who have been on Wings for many years know my Ulster roots. My family are Protestant bigots deeply rooted in N/Ireland
I just want to state that I support the unification of Ireland every bit as much as I support Scottish Independence.
The march in support of Irish unification was legal, fully authorised and peaceful. Their march was attacked by violent bigots. The same people who attacked those marchers rights are the same people who attack our claim to self determination in Scotland.
The media are spinning the “riot” for all they are worth and the word Republican is being over used in an attempt to create division. If they attack this group then an Independence March will be their next target.
Last year I obtained my Irish passport. I am proud of it and I only hope the citizens of my current home have a fraction of the guts the Irish have demonstrated in regard to dealing with London London.
Robert J. Sutherland and Liz G
I agree my personal gripes with the SNP / SG are secondary right now.
Much of the talk is Brexit. Let’s no forget the other side of the Brexit coin.
The European Union Withdrawal Act 2018 kicks in if the UK leaves the EU (with or without a deal).
link to legislation.gov.uk
The EU devolution power grab to Westminster:
Ah, but Ministers of the Crown have to seek consent from Holyrood about legislation.
But they don’t have to obtain consent.
Basically, if Holyrood says:
Aye = consent
No = consent
No answer = consent
That’s called UK democracy. What Scotland says matters not one iota. At least that’s not changed.
At least the pretence of equal partners is over.
Colin Alexander says: at 10:58 pm
“Come on SNP, give me a reason to vote for the party.”
It ain’t a perfect world by a long way and unfortunately we really have to compromise to an extent due to the current shitfest of constitutional and political setups we are constrained by.
Now these may not be the most eloquent responses in the realm of political theory, but I have had surprising success with the following, so here goes:
“Always vote for the least shit option which is most likely to actually get close to delivering what you want”.
Or put another way:
“All politicians are arseholes (on a spectrum), so vote at every opportunity for the least arseholey ones, and vote at every opportunity for a system of governance that can lead to fewer arseholes”.
NB: Everyone is welcome to critique these suggestions should they feel they can be improved upon.
This is from a comment which appeared on the WOS Twitter feed about an hour ago. It’s by @StevieCosmic who, I’m quite sure, used to comment here years ago…
‘The SNP can’t stop Bojo, it can’t stop Brexit and it can’t save England from itself. It is utterly powerless in all these respects. The electorate gave them a mandate for one thing only: deliver independence.’
The reason I’m posting this is because it seems to nail the cause of the most recent friction here.
Dan
To be fair to the SNP:
I’ve said for a while the devolution SNP Scottish Govt is not good but, the current alternatives eg a Labour or Tory devolution Scot Govt would be much worse alternative.
In the case of a Lab / LibDem administration, they’ve already proved to be much worse than the SNP.
We now have a UK Govt that is prepared to shut down UK parliament to prevent English / British democracy.
If they would do that to head office, what would they be prepared to do to the Holyrood devolved / colonial branch office at Holyrood?
Part of me wishes they would just shut Holyrood down. Maybe only then would our Holyrood politicians be forced to accept all they are doing is administering the Union for Westminster. A colonial administration.
If they (the SNP) make Scotland better, it promotes the idea the Union / colonialism is good for Scotland.
If Scotland gets worse, we are told it’s the SNP’s fault for poor administration (not because Scotland is treated as a colony by successive UK Govts, who are ruining all of the UK but, especially don’t give a fig for parts of the UK, such as their North British Scotland colony).
Ian Brotherhood @ 23:40,
Personally I think that dog has got a little way more to run, Ian, what with a court appearance or two, street protests down south and all, but it’s rapidly running out of puff.
I’d give it another circuit or two of the track, but no more. Then it needs to be humanely dispatched. And very publicly.
@Liz g says:31 August, 2019 at 8:13 pm:
… I know that is your position on the subject Robert as you pointed out you’ve said so often enough.
But that’s not the whole picture.
Well you got that right, it isn’t the whole picture as you go on to demonstrate that you still don’t get it.
” … Firstly.. There’s others who disagree,and that’s their right.”
Of course it is their right, Liz g but what isn’t their right is to attempt to prevent me from that very same right.
” … Secondly…There’s this site,which is very clear is not an SNP site,but rather a political discussion site. Not everyone here is an SNP member!”
Indeed so, Liz g, but the point once again is that you, and many others, obviously miss the real point.
It isn’t about whether they are SNP supporters, SMP members or not SNP supporters. It isn’t even whether they like the SNP or loath them.
The point is this blog is supposedly a supporter of Scottish independence and running down the FM/SG/SNP is running down the one and only, (currently existing), Scottish political party with a hope in hell of gaining independence for Scotland.
” … There is, as I’m sure you know and appreciate a social aspect to this site, and that by definition means that people who post also air their doubts, fears, worries and their need to vent.”
Indeed so but why the hell do so when they are damaging the only political party that has a hope of gaining what, (most of them), claim they fervently want?
If they have a beef with Nicola Sturgeon look on the Holyrood Parliament website, or on the SNP’s website, get her contact details a tell her what you don’t like, mind you she would probably like it better if you told her what you do like. If you have a beef with John Swinney, take it up with him and so on. Thing is they sure as hell will get the message which they probably won’t by dripping here on Wings.
Here is a very typical situation. The problem most women have, and rightly so, about self declared gender issues. Now I have excellent reading comprehension but I can also read between the lines.
What I understand about this issue, (and I mean from a politics viewpoint), is that like every other political party, there are factions within the SNP. No political party has 100% agreement across the board, and a faction within the party are pushing the gender issue HARD, but I’d bet it isn’t the whole upper hierarchy by any means. Factions tend to be fairly small but loud.
If women, and probably most men, want to stop that dead in it’s tracks get onto the FM and other top brass in the party directly and you do not need to be a member to do so at a branch meeting.
Email, snail mail, telephone or whatever. The faction within the party making all the noise out of all proportion to their numbers will get told to back of or get out. The party wants voters for, not voters against.
Now ask yourself this has the totally, out of all proportion, furore this matter has already caused right across social media caused it to be stopped? To date it has been put on the back burner by the party but it has far from gone away. What effect has all the bad feeling generated on social media actually had? Aye! That’s right – it generated more bad feeling.
No one has suggested, least of all me, that people should not disagree with the SNP, nor have I said that everyone should join the party. I say if you are in the party take it up at your branch meeting and if not in the party, don’t vent on social media – tell the party directly as is your right, (and that is to both the SG and the SNP as a party.
So there it is, you say we are not all in the SNP – I say that is not the point – we are, (supposedly). all independence supporters so why harm the main party for independence?
The opponent’s of Independence may very well try to pick up on a chink of dissent…. but just as credible, the SNP may also be using us a weather vain of response to their actions and projections of their intentions?
Come on – What the hell do you think they have branches for? Of course they may have a read of Wings but after reading a typical day’s comments full of claims tat Nicola is too comfortable in Bute House, that the SNP are doing nothing, that Nicola is wrong and should do this that or the other – is there any incentive to ever return to Wings for another dose of SNP BAAAADDDD?
” It could just be that the SNP will get a dam sight more from our musings than the British state ever could!”
Aye! But they can get all the abuse they need right here on Wings. I say it again – if you want the SNP to be certai8n to get your message – good or bad, email, telephone, email, snail mail or even post to the SNP webpages – who knows you just might learn a thing or two there while you are at it.
” … They (SNP) need to know how we really feel and should be able to depend on us Wingers to say it like it is.”
Then tell them so – directly – and not on an open forum they may not read because of the abuse the get here.
” … Thirdly…. My late daughter in law worked for the Scottish Government.Her job was to answer the emails and other correspondence on behalf of the Justice Secretary (Humsa).
He never actually saw any of them. So I cannot imagine that the arrangements are any different for the First Minister.
???
” … While I have only a bit of an idea what went on last night,and I’m not even going to look because I don’t want to rake it all back up….”
Then perhaps it might have been a good idea to do so before making this comment.
” … I know that, you know that you can be crotchety and you’ve claimed the right to be at your age”
It has nothing to do with my age and I’ve spoken my mind all my life. BTW: I rarely use bad language at others. I never threaten anyone and I answer points with points and explain the points. If folks can’t stand that then perhaps an open forum for debate is not for them.
” … ( nae argument there) but with rights come responsibility and that means sometimes remembering that ye are not always answering a squadie from the 77th but mibbi a Lady Winger with her own concerns venting to her Wings family.”
Now I’ve already made the point that you say you did not read all that went on – may I, (respectively), suggest you do so before drawing conclusions?
The person was in the wrong. I drew him up for it. He returned whining that he didn’t understand. I explained in more detail and the usual cabal jumped in with both feet and some, like yourself, had not read the exchanges.
Laughably the whole sorry lot of them couldn’t even be honest enough, or brave enough, to even mention the name of the person they were ganging up on. You at least had the courage to address me in person – I will confess I then goaded them as the bunch of snowflakes they are. Am I sorry? Why ever should I be? I really wasn’t in the wrong. Go read the exchanges and see what I pulled him up for. See what his reactions were and then see those who jumped in and without knowing the facts waded in.
O/T
Had to suffer the pain of being on the wrong end of a 5-0 ‘pumping’ fae Inverness Caley Thistle on Friday evening.Hard to take…but that’s ‘fitba.
I am ..nonetheless so grateful that I wont be caught up in the shitfest which is about to explode in approx. 11 hours time.
Robert Peffers @ 12.24
The rights and wrongs of it all wasn’t my point!
So to read up on it could only lead to a discussion I’ve nae interest in having.
My point was that…
If you feel that you can judge the motive and tone of a comment…. Then fair enough…
But the “others” judged yours right back and for that you can’t in all honesty complain ( well go on the defensive and fire back really )
As for them or me jumping in…. Well is that no exactly what you did to the original poster too?
( FYI The poster you were answering is not a him it’s a her which I mention only in the interests of accuracy)
While, you don’t use bad language,by which I assume ye mean “so called” profanity,you do use insult and name calling just like the rest of us, and you goad people too!
All part of the rough and tumble of posting here,but if you can’t see that this line you take of not criticising Nicola or the SNP is no in keeping with the ethos of this particular site then this will keep happening, and that in and of itself could do more harm than good too.
I never said you should be sorry,that’s something only you could know or share.
What I do ask is that is that you read what I said objectively and consider it…
Ha! A theatrical joke. Love it. Duly retweeted. Thanks, Chris.
Your essential weekend reading:
‘Shutting down democracy’: link to wp.me
‘Rocketman’ – a review link to wp.me
Lizg
I did read all of the posts from last nights thread. It was very unseemly to see all these posters ganging up on Robert Peffers. Particularly Silver Darlings disgraceful comments.
As Peffers says he did not use foul language and was far from abusive. Some people have obviously got it in for him and others cannot take any criticism without throwing a wobbly.
A very poor show. An image of a pack of wolves came to mind.
Robert Peffers
AND….. Mr Peffers….. The VERY next time I see you referencing yer Age in relation to not putting up with things….. I will be reminding ye of this conversation… Ha.. Watchin ye now. 🙂
Lizg
I have asked on Wings many times for those who like to criticise the SNP and the Scotgov on Wings to explain to silly old me how criticising them constantly helps the cause of independence. Not a dicky bird has been forthcoming.
On the other hand if a person was constantly criticising the Britnats does that make that person more or less likely to be a Britnat.
Cubby @ 1.07
I’m no ganging up on Robert,Cubby,I consider him a friend.
And I said what I said as a friend..
We’ve had a difference of opinions many times before and we both speak our minds…. He knows that ( I hope )
And the last thing I want to do is start it all back up again.
Cubby @ 1.17
Well …. As I said to Robert,this is a talking shop and potentially a bell weather for how the grassroots are feeling.
If the SNP/Scottish Government can’t find out how we’re really feeling here…. Then where?
That’s how it will help.
And it’s just my opinion but, that’s of greater use to the SNP than anything that the British state could glean here.
Mainly because there’s always a rebuttal or a different take offered.
That’s the benefit I see!
Lizg
Never thought you were ganging up on Peffers and didn’t mean to give that impression at all. I thought it was all an over the top reaction by a number of posters. Peffers then called them snowflakes and based on the modern meaning of the word it seemed pretty fair comment to me.
Thanks for your explanation but I’m not convinced. Attacking the organisation that you hope will deliver independence just doesn’t do it for me. Particularly people like Colin Alexander who does nothing but attack the SNP/ Scotgov. Why do the Britnats dirty work for them? It is possible to give an opinion without attacking the SNP/Scotgov. You
In the Independence cause we tend to think of the SNP as ours but they’re not, they’re everybody’s whether you vote for them or don’t vote for them, love them or hate them
That’s the problem with trying to be a fair government to everybody, you can’t neglect the ones who hate you or they’ll just hate you more and that doesn’t get you votes or new voters
It’s a bit like being an entertainer, you’ve got to at least appear to be nice to everybody even if you feel like tearing the flesh from their bones or they don’t turn up for the next gig
It seems it’s only big governments of big countries who don’t give a toss about anybody because they don’t need to, they control the media output on themselves
Look at the stuff that happens in England every day and the media never seem to call for the head of the government, they blame a council or the head of a department or the police or doctors, yet in Scotland everything that happens the media find a way to make the public believe that somehow Nicola Sturgeon sat in her office and made it happen deliberately as part of her evil plan to annoy people
Her *threats* of Independence, Jacob Reese Mogg getting away with talking about her anger issues, on the telly, every opposition MSP or MP continually banging on attempting to give the impression that Nicola Sturgeon only has one thing on her mind 24 hours of the day *Independence* as if she’s some kind of a nutter
What nobody ever mentions is the fact that when Scotland gets its Independence if it really was going to be as bad as they say and doom would befall us all why in the hell would Nicola Sturgeon want to be immediately voted out of office and hated for all time if she thought for one second it was going to fail she’d be signing her own political D warrent so what would be in it for her, it’d be like the Queen going on the telly and saying F..k the lot of you I’m off home to Germany, I mean they wouldn’t want her to continue as Queen anymore would they
Cubby @ 1.46
Aw ok Cubby thanks for sayin 🙂
I do take yer point about Colin Alexander and others ( many of them ) but people here usually get their measure pretty quickly and they get away with nothing…
I was more talking about people who … well basically… have an opinion!
We need the time and space to work it through and unpack what could/should be going on
For me (and you needn’t agree,of course you neednt) it’s very unhelpful to have an honest Indy supporter lumped in with people like Colin and his ilk for questioning the leadership of the direction of the movement.
We’re never going to be rid of the disrupters,but it insults everyone’s intelligence to think that we should all be on the same page on everything.
If ye think something’s wrong ye should be able to say so…
Yes …. on an open forum,especially one with the knowledge contained in this one!
That’s what helps ye decide if you should be contacting the Government over it,or if there’s something that ye didn’t know.
It also helps in getting others to decide if it’s important enough tae join us in yer endeavours!
That, I think,is worth more to the independence movement than a demonstration of such loyalty that everything has to be private for the sake of image.
I cannot personally argue to bring my Government within slapping distance if I only ever demonstrate that I’d never give them that slap!
Dr Jim @ 1.59
Yes they will go after Nicola at every turn,which is why I can see the argument for not criticising here,but only up to a point.
I think one of the lines of attack will come from Ruth the Mooths replacement being totally against the GRA.
We need to do some work to make it clear that the whole point of Independence was and is that no matter what any leader thought…. If people pay attention and object no leader can just go ahead here…. And that’s the difference between Holyrood and Westminster…. There’s nae new GRA in Scotland but there IS a R*** Clause….
Liz g,
I’m just dipping in occasionally while getting on with other things, but I just want to say I admire your tolerance and patience with your two respondents. You make a particularly important point about the need to discriminate between two very different kinds of contributor, a discrimination in fact that most of us in here seem to be able to make without the slightest difficulty.
I’m somewhat reminded of the worst period of the French Terror. The revolutionaries were very strict believers in the Rationality of Man (if not necessarily Woman =grin=), which led them into the erroneous notion that there could only be one Right Way about any policy that every rationally-thinking person would automatically understand and support, and anyone who took a different view was therefore by definition a schemer and ("Tractor" - Ed) to the cause. But political viewpoints persisted, as they will, since attitudes vary, which inevitably led to gory rounds of mass executions of the losing factions. Until everybody got royally fed up (so to speak) and went back to having a monarchy, at least for a while.
As for members of the SNP in particular being obliged to haud their wheesht in public and stick rigidly to the party line, that’s for the birds. (See the letters pages of The National for plentiful evidence of that!) More seriously, there are still people alive for whom that particular notion can still send cold shivers up their spines.
Robert J Sutherland @ 2.45
Why thank you sir 🙂
I’m just feeling particularly reasonable tonight… lol…
And I’m banking some of it so that some kind Winger will say something when I am out of order 🙂
As has been known to happen… no honestly… I know you are thinking that could never happen!!
( you are aren’t you ) but just occasionally… we’ll ye know??? 🙂
@Liz 2:31am
I mentioned politics being similar to the entertainment business because that’s what earned me my living, and I found that these two arenas of work are the most criticised jobs on the planet by people who can’t do either of those jobs
People used to say to me all the time the wonderful phrase *can you take constructive criticism* and when I was young I’d bite my lip and be polite and answer in the affirmative while smiling
Once I reached my fifties I began to answer truthfully by saying *Oh are you a musician?* and when they replied no I immediately replied with *how can you criticise something you don’t understand bugger off out of my face and don’t annoy me*
People knowing what they like and understanding why or how they like it are different things and I find politics much the same, I think I know what I like and then the next minute a good professional politician knowing their job reminds you of something you didn’t think of because they are immersed in all the aspects of it that I didn’t see or appreciate enough to understand
Now that I’m 70 I reckon I’d be even worse and that’s why I’m retired, can’t stand people criticising what they don’t understand and I guess it must be the same way for politicians, because they hear and see every opinion, point of view good bad indifferent stupid or just plain bananas, and they even get threatened for it, so did I on occasion
I could never be a politician even if I was on the right side, far too stressful if you’re one of the good ones because you work in an arena that’s full of the bad and bone idle lazy ones that give the few gooduns the bad rep
I understand the retired politicians popping up every now and then as well because like me they think they’d like to go back out and gig but at our age nobody wants us to do that even if we were good at it
Politics like entertainment, both rotten businesses that you hate retiring from
So that’s my tired late night rambling done and I ask forgiveness and thank you for your forebearance if you took the time to read my mumblings
liz G @ 2.14am I hate to say it but again I most certainly agree with you , I can honestly say that your diplomatic skills are exemplary and would be of great benefit to the forthcoming citizens hub and forum and I would respectfully request that you consider adding your name to the applicants
As a Scottish voter and avid supporter of independence for Scotland I will continue to voice my opinions on OUR governments progress or not on this site unless the site owner and moderator determines otherwise
Dr Jim @ 3.15
Sleep well…. and for the morning….
Ye weren’t rambling and I was genuinely interested to read your take on things.
The only thing I would say is, an entertainer I can take or leave, but a politician can affect me and mine so I’d say… I don’t need to understand them only the effects they are likely to have on me, to have the right and it has to be said the duty to critique them?
………………………..
Twathater @ 3.19
Thank You Twathater it was good of you to say….
Is that the Citizen Assembly you’re talking about?
Or something different?
Cubby @1.17
I suppose everyone has their own reasons.
But there is a limit to what extent and for how long, one can bite ones tongue in the name of faux “unity”.
When I joined the SNP Willie Wolf was the chairman and everything seemed at “least to me” to be open and democratic, toryish types, communists, republicans, monarchists and apolitical members could argue the toss about anything and everything but would always hold their personal views to be subordinate to “the good of the movement.
When Gordon Wilson was in charge, I began to notice that he would scrape the sky with his delegates card a millisecond after a vote was called for, so there could be no doubt as to which way you were supposed to vote if you didn’t want to see an “SNP SPLIT” headline in the following day’s newspapers.
When Alex Salmond took the helm, any important decision due to be debated at national council or conference, was preceded by press releases, converting what should have been a proposal, seeking the approval of the delegates, into a choice between supine compliance or pressing the self-destruct button.
By the time Nicola came along Alex Neil was just about the only member of the” “hierarchy” who had not been hand-picked by the boss and the party had adopted a barrow-load of policies to place it precisely on the spot on the political spectrum the Great Leader wished it to occupy and the process continues…
There were of course many casualties along the way, one of the conflicts was when the powers that be, decided to cancel the party’s commitment to holding a referendum on EU membership AFTER achieving independence … bearing that in mind, the leaderships current stance re Brexit might account for an upsurge in dissension from people who clearly do support Scottish independence.
I will continue to give praise were it is due but feel it my duty to fire the occasional shot across their bows when they sail into waters they have no justification for being in.
Moderator
Did I forget to put the “e” at the end of Wolf[e]?
Was that AS nickname a Unionist divining, red flagable word?
or have I transgressed in some other way?
Liz G yes the citizens assembly , they are requesting applications , and WE need you to help hold their feet to the fire , go fur it
I suppose everyone has their own reasons.
But there is a limit to what extent and for how long, one can bite ones tongue in the name of faux “unity”.
When I joined the SNP Willie Wolf was the chairman and everything seemed at “least to me” to be open and democratic, toryish types, communists, republicans, monarchists and apolitical members could argue the toss about anything and everything but would always hold their personal views to be subordinate to “the good of the movement.
When Gordon Wilson was in charge, I began to notice that he would scrape the sky with his delegates card a millisecond after a vote was called for, so there could be no doubt as to which way you were supposed to vote if you didn’t want to see an “SNP SPLIT” headline in the following day’s newspapers.
When Alex Salmond took the helm, any important decision due to be debated at national council or conference, was preceded by press releases, converting what should have been a proposal, seeking the approval of the delegates, into a choice between supine compliance or pressing the self-destruct button.
By the time Nicola came along Alex Neil was just about the only member of the” “hierarchy” who had not been hand-picked by the boss and the party had adopted a barrow-load of policies to place it precisely on the spot on the political spectrum the [redacted redacted] wished it to occupy and the process continues…
There were of course many casualties along the way, one of the conflicts was when the powers that be, decided to cancel the party’s commitment to holding a referendum on EU membership AFTER achieving independence … bearing that in mind, the leaderships current stance re Brexit might account for an upsurge in dissension from people who clearly do support Scottish independence.
I will continue to give praise were it is due but feel it my duty to fire the occasional shot across their bows when they sail into waters they have no justification for being in.
puzzling to say the least
Twathater @ 3.53
Thank You
I think I might….I had understood that the selection was just like Jury Duty ..
I didn’t know that you had to apply!! 🙂
Twathater @ 3.19
What is this——- OUR—— Government shit???
Ha— now we find disagreement— 🙂
This is MY Government…
And not because I’m Elizabeth..
But
Because I’m Sovereign
As are You
So if she ( Auld lizzie Windsor ) can say MY Governent..
Twathater…. so can you xxx
Ian Brotherhood @11:30
I agree with that sentiment, however, NS and the SNP need to play Brexit carefully, this is our HOLD moment, without a doubt.
The UK hasn’t ‘left’ the EU yet……and you cant put out a fire that hasn’t started, so, time for a bit of self discipline and patience, which is definitely testing.
I imagine that once Brexit is an actual reality, a date for IndyRef2 will be announced (for that is their mandate) and we can all focus on that – with ‘Brexit arguments’ finally behind us the road ahead will become clearer.
So, Boris Johnson has told the Tory rebels to side with him or the clueless, utterly unelectable Jeremy Corbyn. That’s now the only likely hurdle before a no deal exit.
I remember David Cameron, at one of his last PMQs saying to Corbyn “It may be in my party’s interest for you to remain leader of the opposition but it’s certainly not in this country’s interest. For goodness sake man, go!”
We’ll, that’s where we are now as Michel Barnier has quite correctly told Johnson the backstop stays which may lead to the abyss of no deal and Corbyn is the alternative (as the Rev said, the country would rather vote for Jimmy Savile).
My guess is that big business on both sides will step in as we near the Halloween deadline and insist on a further delay on the basis that the political landscape may change.
As I’ve said previously, ‘leaving but not having actually left yet’ is the UKs relationship with the EU for the foreseeable future. Which of course means that Scotland’s relationship with the rUK continue in the same vein.
Essexville@7:43
I am inclined to disagree about big business setting a delay agenda – English Brexiteers wont have it and would likely put the anti brexit marches to shame in terms of turn-out and impact – and probably not without violence, which is why I think big business would not succeed in that type of endeavour (if they did try, which I am not convinced they will).
Ian Brotherhood’s comment at 1140pm,
Is worth repeating, because I think it is most important. His citing of a twitter comment, really does go to the heart of things.
The fact is, the SNP have tried, really, really tried, over and over again, to seek common ground in England over brexit. At every single turn, they have been utterly ignored, over and over again. At present, they are looking to work cross-party, with folk like Labour to stop no-deal brexit, with NO GUARANTEE, or acknowledgement from Labour that they would respect desire for Scottish independence. So what is the SNP going to get from all this?? NOTHING. Has Corbyn said ‘help us stop brexit, and qwe’ll back your push for independence? No, I thinketh not. Indeed he has said the EXACT opposite.
Whilst they may wish to continue to add their votes to others to help prevent a no-deal brexit, out of some kind of loyalty to those in England who sneer at them on an almost daily basis, that should no longer be their focus. Brexit is a very English thing. It is English nationalism writ large. It is time for OUR SNP Scottish Government and MP’s, to put Scotland first.
It is really rather simp[le, idependence, independence, independence, and really before the brexit sh*tfest happens. England, and especially Westminster across all parties, cares nothing for Scotland.
It is high time, the SNP stopped fretting about those who seek to destroy us as a country, and sovereign nation.
Here below for reference, is the relevant comment from Ian Brotherhood at 1140pm last night;
QUOTE :
This is from a comment which appeared on the WOS Twitter feed about an hour ago. It’s by @StevieCosmic who, I’m quite sure, used to comment here years ago…
‘The SNP can’t stop Bojo, it can’t stop Brexit and it can’t save England from itself. It is utterly powerless in all these respects. The electorate gave them a mandate for one thing only: deliver independence.’
The reason I’m posting this is because it seems to nail the cause of the most recent friction here.
Liz G
Criticising the SNP or Scot Govt does not make someone a Unionist / fake indy supporter.
People like Commissar Cubby and you, seem to think it’s their job to criticise others in the YES movement who aren’t following the true SNP way.
What gives you the right to brand anyone who is ever critical of the SNP or Scot Govt as Unionists?
Why don’t youse say it to Stu and the many others who have commented, who’ve also been critical of the SNP too?
How many polls has there ever been that showed the SNP on 50% +1 of the popular vote? So, if indy is all about being a devoted supporter of the SNP / SNP Scot Govt, we are making things harder for ourselves.
When will people get it into their heids:
WE NEED PEOPLE WHO DON’T SUPPORT THE SNP, SUCH AS LABOUR VOTERS, TO VOTE YES AND POLLS SHOW 40% OF LABOUR VOTERS WOULD VOTE YES!
SLAGGING THEM, BRANDING THEM UNIONISTS, DOES NOT BUILD SUPPORT FOR INDEPENDENCE.
Good morning ahundredthidiot.
Fair point, but I’m not so sure. Mass public demonstrations are usually against a particular policy or set of individuals with a clear point. The economic minutiae surrounding Brexit are (let’s be honest) beyond most people, leave or remain and hardly a rallying point for violent protest.
I believe PM Johnson’s ‘game’ of Trump style brinkmanship has gone as far as it can. He’s made no deal Brexit a very real possibility and the EU hasn’t blinked. 60 odd days for business leaders to apply pressure for another extension which will seem more palatable as we’ve already had one.
I think we’re unlikely to see hordes of sweaty, red faced pensioners trashing BMW dealerships but the world’s rapidly going mad so who knows!
Corbyn will not support indy, if he did and we won it would destroy English labour hard unionists down south would never vote labour again and new parties would form not least a labour form of the Brexit party.
On Netflix the movie The Great Hack is a must watch.
It blows the whistle on Cambridge Analytica and
How the money that buys the data and manipulated it
Can put Trump in the Whitehouse and the UK out of Europe.
Key players in the company are now Remorseful about their
Activities and tell their own stories.
Brittany Kaiser is one photographed with the likes of Trump, Alexander Nik,
Aaron Banks, Nigel Farage, etc.
She lived the jet set life and included shooting with Conservatives in the UK.
A picture shows her at a shooting weekend with the faces of 2 men blurred out.
One has the frame of an Alister Jack, a Scottish Millionaire Tory MP renowned
For inviting senior Tories and their Associates to his very substantial Estate for
Shooting weekends?
Next photo used and she is at a diner with men in kilts and she wears a tartan sash.
Terrifying proof that we are now living in 1984 and they rich in power can buy and
Control everything.
They have all your likes and dislikes and your friends and colleagues info via
Facebook etc. All your Card transaction what you bought for how much when,
Credit Score, mobile calls to who when from where.
What you looked at on line, who do you exchange e-mails with and who they are.
Are your family pictures all stored in a cloud somewhere hackable?
Our souls have been sold to a devil for the convenience of these devices.
Seen several predictions that there will be a general election on Oct 17th.
If Johnson finds events ‘too hot’ this coming week, that may be his next step.
We’ll know soon enough.
Effijy @9:09
No one an hack your vote though……social media is just another form of media and there is a lot more freedom ‘out there’ than there is on telly.
Now, I am not for any sort of information gathering and all for privacy conditions, but to suggest that it put Trump in the White House is nonsense.
Netflix also did a docufilm thingy on the white helmets in Syria portraying them as some kind of local heroes – it couldn’t be further from the truth and borderline war propaganda.
So, take anything you see on telly, social media and even Netflix, with a pinch of salt. (Postal votes/deceased people aside!) – No one can hack you in the voting booth.
This will be the first crisis caused by brexit and it will develop into civil war if the British army is sent back into Northern Ireland
link to irishtimes.com
To Effijy your post today 9.09am
Yes they have all your info but hey the way I look at it is that I want them to know all about me I want them to know how much I hate england controlling Scotland and ripping us off.
I want them to know that I am supporting Scottish independence my whole life until it happens
They see my determination
They see my anger
That’s okay , they can’t take that away from me
Colin Alexander at 8.39
“Criticising the SNP or Scot Govt does not make someone a Unionist / fake indy supporter.”
But only attacking the SNP and the Scottish Government does.
As soon as “Colin Alexander” is sensibly challenged he reverts back to his pretendy “SNP support” position as he thinks we are all daft.
Really moving post from Clootie at 11.32pm and absolutely spot on.
ahundredthidiot says:
1 September, 2019 at 7:32 am
Ian Brotherhood @11:30
I agree with that sentiment, however, NS and the SNP need to play Brexit carefully, this is our HOLD moment, without a doubt.
The UK hasn’t ‘left’ the EU yet……and you cant put out a fire that hasn’t started, so, time for a bit of self discipline and patience, which is definitely testing…
Ask ANY fireman, and they’ll tell you fire prevention is the best remedy for any fire. It would be unforgivable to sell out Scotland and capitulate to our unconstitutional Brexit, and it is infuriating that so many Independence supporters are so casually ambivalent about the actual consequences of Brexit and what it will mean for Scotland’s economy and the standard of living we have.
I made the comment yesterday that within hours of Boris Johnson looking to prorogue Parliament and overstep Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty, he was taken to Court in three countries and vilified by the Establishment for committing a Constitutional outrage in ‘merely’ denying the House of Commons four days of debate. Yet in Scotland, in 2016 when the Constitutional outrage was against Scotland’s popular sovereignty, a sovereign and democratic Remain mandate, and where Brexit threatens to inflict incalculable damage on the Scottish economy, there has been virtually nothing made of the unconstitutional impropriety of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty being subjugated. Where is our outrage? Where are our Constitutional Test cases? Where is Scotland’s Backstop? Why are we sleepwalking towards Brexit dreaming of better times in 2020???
Brexit at the end of October is NOT about Brexit. Brexit at the end of October is the fulcrum. It marks the tipping point where Scotland changes from being a Sovereign Nation having a democratic constitutional mandate to prevent it’s subjugation and affirm it’s sovereign ascendency, and the alternative state, where Scotland is Brexited against it’s will, thus proving the sovereign will of Westminster to Brexit Scotland is SUPERIOR to the sovereign will of Scotland to defend it’s Remain mandate. We are living through a constitutional test case whether we realise it or not, yet we are without representation.
If we permit Scotland to be Brexited, we concede that Westminster’s sovereign will, even without any democratic ratification or mandate in Scotland, is still superior to Scotland’s constitutionally sovereign democratic majority. “They” rule us.
The SNP “looks” on course to duck the Brexit change of state about to be suffered upon Scotland, presumably hoping the outrage and deprivations of life after Brexit will swell their Parliamentary strength in both Holyrood and Westminster, and they hope, a future Referendum, despite that referendum henceforth having to prove constitutional credentials, credentials which we don’t even seem willing to defend.
People who articulate criticism and condemnation of SNP strategy have EVERY reason to be outspoken in their concerns, because Scotland has dropped the ball regarding our Constitutional Sovereignty. Instead of having a Constitutional Backstop to rival Northern Ireland, the mere existence of Scotland as a nation barely features in ANY formal Brexit negotiation or provisional agreement. We are mute, invisible, impotent, passengers in a bus about to be driven over a cliff, and we are talking down our own clock.
I don’t give a shit about Labour, Corbyn, Davidson, Davidson’s baby, Swinson’s accent, a By-Election result, a Section 30,, a poll showing a modest swing…. I shut my ears to it all. It is all mindless, bourgeois “after dinner” chatter while the blazing meteor of our Constitutional subjugation enters the atmosphere above our heads.
Friends, whether we like each other or not, whether we agree and respect each other or not, Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty MUST be brought into play before Brexit happens, and we are critically short of time. There shouldn’t even be discussion of IndyRef2 before November. It is a distraction from much more critical necessities.
Ian Blackford has said that Scotland will NOT be dragged out of Europe against it’s will. I don’t know if Mr Blackford is a maverick who speaks for himself, or speaks from his position as SNP leader in Westminster, his Party, or whether he alludes to Top Secret plans that a well advanced but strategically hidden from view, but I DO know Mr Blackford is the only one saying the only thing that matters.
Scotland will not be dragged out of Europe against it’s will.
If we think we suffer from Unionists inventing false realities about YES2014 being a once in a generation thing, be in no doubt whatsoever that Brexit, and our sovereign rejection of Brexit, and the chaotic debacle unfolding at Westminster, represents a truly unprecedented coming together of such favourable circumstances for Scottish Independence that we MUST consider Brexit as a chance in a million and we would utter, utter, fools to let the opportunity slip from our grasp.
59 days. For god’s Sake, defend our constitutional sovereignty.
Terry, I see where you are coming from but making our own
Positive case isn’t a factor in all this.
They find the don’t knows and the slightly over the line people and
Tailor make propaganda that turns them the paymasters way.
In Trinidad they were hired by the Asian party.
Analytica persuaded 40% of the Caribbean youth not to vote.
This turned the expected result by 5% and the Asians are in power.
A UK committee investigating this declared that UK election laws are
No longer fit for purpose.
The world can no longer hold what we knew as a Fair and a True Democratic Election!
Whoever buys the most data and puts out the most fake news wind. Full Stop.
Do Boris, Gideon, Reese Migg and Alister Jack and all the OxBrige Elute
Have deeper pockets than the SNP and Wings supporters?
What that reality movie and be shocked to the core.
We are now in the ‘period of events, dear boy, events’. A bit like January/February 1974 which ended with the demise of the Heath Government. Political things can move quickly so don’t rule out anything in or out at the moment.
Sadly, 80 years ago today, Poland was invaded by Nazi Germany and that event led to a series of events leading to the ultimate demise of Nazi Germany. The Germans thought they were invincible but they weren’t. Same goes for the Etonian political elite at Westminster.
@Effijy,
Not seen `The Great Hack` but does it mention the Obama re-election campaign that used facebook data to target voters,called by Obama `Project Narwhal`,
“People don’t trust campaigns. They don’t even trust media organizations,” Teddy Goff, the Obama campaign’s digital director, said at the time. “Who do they trust? Their friends.”
According to a Time magazine account just after Obama won re-election, “the team blitzed the supporters who had signed up for the app with requests to share specific online content with specific friends simply by clicking a button.”
The effort was called a “game-changer” in the 2012 election, and the Obama campaign boasted that it was “the most groundbreaking piece of technology developed for the campaign.”
Cambridge Analytica were not the first to use/abuse facebook data.
Colin Alexander@8.39am
Sorry Mr Alexander but as usual you are wrong. I have never branded you a unionist. That term should be reserved for people who actually are for a PROPER political union. You are a BRITNAT. That is what I have always called you. A British Nationalist who wants to keep Scotland in a repressive U.K. Dictatorship.
You attack the SNP non stop. That is not the same as someone making the occasional point. Your defence is just rubbish and you know it.
I think the above paragraph should be clear enough even for you.
And you know what you can do with your commissar cubby comment.