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Operation Pantomime

Posted on August 31, 2019 by

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298 to “Operation Pantomime”

  1. manandboy says:

    Excellent, Chris. Well done.

    Haven’t been to a pantomime in a long while. But now it’s everyday.

  2. jimnarlene says:

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, Belter.

  3. Alba Laddie says:

    Spat my coffee over the kitchen table when I opened this up today!!!

  4. starlaw says:

    excellent what a great laugh to start the day . . Thanks Chris.

  5. Athanasius says:


  6. John Lowe says:

    If I stop smiling and laughing today after this belter of a cartoon it will because I have gone to bed ?????????

  7. Sarah says:

    I needed a good laugh. Thank you, Chris!

    Perhaps Chris will allow it to be shared with local papers?

  8. Alba Woman says:

    Just brilliant….beautifully drawn….many thanks.

  9. Conan the Librarian says:

    But who is playing his arse…?

  10. HeehawBaws says:

    I picture oor Ross as being much happier under the cover of that back end, for… some … reason.

  11. Effijy says:

    Udder Brilliance!

    Disgusted again at the Orange Order Thugs being
    Allowed to attack innocent citizens on Glasgow’s Streets.

    Senior police and politicians seem to cower as these events prevail.

    Have the police or council filmed the event?
    Will they announce large number of arrests and prosecutions?
    Has a team been set up to trace the organisers?

    Not likely. We will be threatened by the red, white and blue
    Knuckle Draggers at Indy Ref 2. They will be looking to battle
    In the streets and bars tomorrow after the Old Firm Bigot Fest
    and the Police will put 6 drinks behind bars until sober and a weekend’s
    Booze budget is paid in fines.

    Riot Police seem to be on tap at peaceful protest marches but not when it’d the OO ?

    I want these guy baton charged, arrested And given long sentences
    To discourage their counterparts and their offspring.

  12. Clootie says:

    So much in one sketch!
    Ruthie stomping off in a huff perfectly captured.
    Dopey Ross, disheveled Boris, the “Coo”

    Still smiling

  13. Robert Louis says:


    Party appointee and Unelected dictator, Johnson should be in jail. It is all I think every time I see him. The man should be held criminally liable for DELIBERATELY trashing the entire United Kingdom.

    Either a democracy or not. Their is no ‘grey area’.

  14. Tom Kane says:

    Superb, Chris. Boris exposed backstage with a coo wannabe and Ruthie throwing in the hat.

    Nice to imagine Boris speaking the truth. I hope this cartoon follows him around on buses.

  15. Joe says:

    I know its a cartoon but honestly. You people are pathetic. No, not just pathetic – dangerous, uninformed, ignorant hypocrites. You have no idea the pandoras box you open with this.

    The left/remainers are talking about ‘occupying parliament’ and stopping Boris Johnson yet what is happening under the current government is purely within the rules and purely within democratic limits. The elected government of the UK is delivering its mandate on the outcome of a referendum that the people of the UK voted for.

    Ive always said it, as have many others, that the left do not care about democracy – its all power play and democracy sometimes adds some legitimacy to it. You are dancing to the tune of globalist powers.

    Im all for an independent Scotland but I will stand with Brexiteers on this issue before I stand with disgusting, hypocritical scum who are undermining the very democracy they are appealing to when it comes to Scottish Independence. In the same way id never have backed down if we’d won our own indy ref.

    What respect for your democratic rights should anyone have if you support this?

    I will never accept my country to be ruled by the kind of ‘well meaning’ tyrants that have wrecked many countries and murdered, starved and destroyed the lives of 10’s of millions so far. The kind that can tell you that men can be women with a mere signing of a form. That can tell you with a straight face that they are saving democracy by shitting on the result of referendum.

    The leaders of this attempt are painting themselves for what they are. Their supporters also.

    Lets bring it on then. War it is.

  16. Clootie says:

    An added bonus Chrie, Joe is upset!

  17. robertknight says:

    Oh, well played.

  18. Scotspine says:

    Pipe down Joe. You’ve made a fud of yourself that thousands will read. “War it is”…..eejit.

    Great cartoon Chris.

  19. Maggie says:

    Aw Joe, ur ye ragin?

  20. Frank Gillougley says:

    Ere wots he tokeen ’bout? Aih? (Said wiv best cockney gangster accent I can muster).
    Trouble is Joe, like your heroes, you’re just another cardboard character.

    Among the endless politicians and commentators cartoons speak a beautiful truth.

  21. Joe says:

    @ Clootie


    A large group of people (including political leaders) are talking about physically occupying/overturning parliament, in the face of a democratically held referendum, while demanding that their democratic rights be respected.

    Do you know what happens when the democratic process is undermined enough that nobody will respect the results?

    Do you know what the people who voted for this are thinking when they see this happening?

    If that doesn’t bother you then you are nothing more than an ignorant child.

  22. Effijy says:

    Hey Joe.
    Where are you going with that gun in your hand?

    It seems to be your Westminster Democratic Rules
    To get into power with nothing but lies like £350 Million per week to the NHS.

    It seems fine in UK rules to attack the basic benefits of the severely handicapped and disabled.
    Your rules give no limit to the millions of children living in poverty while larger corporations are
    Given Billions in rebates and allowed to pay Zero Tax.

    It’s in the rules you love to see schools and wards closed down
    Due to Austerity cuts.

    Your beloved rules seen thousands of women confined to their homes due to period poverty.

    It’s in your rules to give Scotland no voice in its economic future, to steal its resources to take it out
    Of Europe against its will and in a format that suits the English.

    It’s in the rules that we are not permitted to know what’s in the top secret files
    Relating to the Dunblane massacre.

    It’s in the rules we have a corrupt and biased national broadcaster that all 37 newspapers available
    In 2014, were against independence while the polls stood at 50/50.

    It’s in the rules that I can watch All of England’s football matches on Scottish TV, and that’s Men’s, women’s and youths but not Scotland’s matches.
    Presenter Gary Liniker as part of a 3 man team gets more money from the BBC
    than Scottish Football.

    Rules that stopped woman from voting, put children down coal mines and drove families into
    The sea during the Highland clearances And starved millions in Ireland were all condemned.

    The fascist Tory Party and its supporters are also to be condemned.

  23. Cactus says:

    THIS is one dress rehearsal the Tories got all wrong

    Ruth Hood and her merry men thieves

    They take from the poor and give to the rich (pooling n sharing)

    Exit stage door right Davidssson

  24. A C Bruce says:

    Great cartoon, Chris. Love it.

    What are you on about, Joe?

  25. Frank Gillougley says:

    So Johnson is in Churchill pose and garb. But as for his thumb? I reckon Ross is gonna get squished any time soon.

  26. Patsy Millar says:

    Brilliant cartoon as ever.

  27. Tartanpigsy says:

    LOL, , very good Chris.
    Begging bowl’s out again.
    We’ve one week to get this to 60% so the production can be paid and shipping occurs on time.
    I have a busy week coming up so if anyone feels like pushing this on here, F**ebook or Tw**ter….

  28. Terry callachan says:

    We don’t want Ireland’s political discord played out on the streets of Scotland
    Every year flute bands from Scotland go to Northern Ireland to join in unionist marches and now we have an Irish republican flute band marching in Glasgow

    Both must be stopped

  29. Conan the Librarian says:

    Ah! Joe is the arse end of the coo.

  30. ahundredthidiot says:

    The basis of some peoples anger can be found deep down inside them. Cognitive dissonance has a powerful effect over people who have just enough intelligence to know, somewhere rooted inside their tiny little brains, that they are in fact, wrong. Then their emotions come to the surface when they are trying to make their own argument, however wrong it is.

    Got to admire their passion, but the angry boxer always loses.

  31. Dorothy Devine says:

    Cartoon is brilliant! ( though I always thought that Panto’s were full of joy and fun – unlike the reality we face today)

    Tartanpigsy, is there a way I can donate that does not require my details to be on line? I have been diddled once before and will never put details on line again.

  32. Luigi says:

    Apparently, Ross prefers to be at the rear end of the coo, but for some strange reason none of the usual tory sycophants volunteered to steer the beast.

  33. Gary45% says:

    Hey Joe, Where are you going with that giant chip on your shoulder?
    I think you have the wrong site son, what’s the weather like in Thanet?

    Cracking “toon” Chris. Nice One.

  34. Republicofscotland says:

    Ha,ha brilliant Chris.

    Meanwhile Scottish Civil servants have been blocked by Westminster from attending Brussels on devolved matters, as Brexit secretary Stephen Barclay trades away our industries.

  35. dramfineday says:

    Ha, Ha, ha, very good, I enjoyed that and Conan’s comment too.

  36. HeehawBaws says:

    Joe managed 5 words of sense then started gibbering about believing in Independence as long as we accept that the UK has melted into one big country.

  37. stu mac says:

    @Effijy says:
    31 August, 2019 at 8:08 am

    Disgusted again at the Orange Order Thugs being
    Allowed to attack innocent citizens on Glasgow’s Streets.

    Seems the riot police were called out.

    Agree with what you say but the worry is this could be used as an excuse to try to ban Yes/Indy marches in future. See the problem wasn’t with the marchers but the bigots who turned out against the march, so a record of peaceful marching may not be enough in future.

  38. Republicofscotland says:

    Not an MP and with no political authority, closed shop speaker, Gordon Brown who’s wheeled out regularly and fawned over by the media, has said he believes the EU will withdraw its current 31st of October deadline.

    However the EU Council has said it cannot withdraw a deadline, and that only the member state can ask for a further extension.

    Brown of course is spouting his usual bollocks.

  39. HandandShrimp says:

    Poor Ross, I don’t think he really twigged that Boris is much more comfortable with the green welly and Barbour set than thrusting young upstart Thatcherites.

  40. Den Cairns says:

    Joe’s put too many sprinkles on his jelly.

  41. Ross Thomson next leader of Scottish Tory`s ?

    now that Colonel Ruth has been booted out the door,Boris will need a loyal toady and they come no more Boris loyal than Ross.

  42. Sharny Dubs says:

    Nice one Chris, my morning chuckle, good start to the day

  43. robin says:

    we are a movement…I welcome anyone who’s bottom line is independence.
    Joe and all of us have a right to be heard
    I don’t agree with him however

  44. robin says:

    I meant within limits obviously, ie no fascists for example

  45. defo says:

    The Colonel isn’t storming off in a huff, she’s away to sell the magic beans, whilst there’s still a market for them.

    PLEASE stop biting peeps, hard to resist i know, but you can do it.
    Leave them to howl at the moon alone, and they go away!

  46. pussy nancy says:

    Ross Thomson as leader of the Scottish Conservatives?
    What about the hastened effect on climate change though? Can you imagine the shovel-loads of erm… ‘methane’ that would have to be disposed of after a First Minister’s Questions session with Nicola?

    Now there’s yer pantomime!

    Is it too much to hope for?

  47. Macart says:

    That’s a keeper Chris. 😀 LOL

  48. Breeks says:

    Interesting. Boris usurps the Parliamentary Sovereignty of Westminster, robs MP’s of a few days debate, and within hours he’s taken to Court, facing emergency measures in England, Scotland and Wales, with a former PM adding his weight to the campaign, despite having prorogued Westminster himself to avoid the cash for questions furore.

    Meanwhile in Scotland, when Westminster brazenly usurps and demeans the Popular Sovereignty of the Scottish people and threatens Scotland with lasting economic catastrophe against the will of the sovereign majority… we get three years of tumbleweed blowing around the streets.

  49. Clootie says:

    We were not biting, responding or engaging. We were mocking – quite different.

  50. galamcennalath says:

    Boris adopting the feet-too-far-apart power stance there. The pair wee coo looks terrified, perhaps it heard what happened to the Burlingdon pig.

  51. Cubby says:

    Another superb toon from the master of political toons.

  52. defo says:

    Apologies Clootie
    Apart from the wags mocking those obviously out to disrupt…please stop.

  53. Dr Jim says:

    I don’t mind a bit of banter Rev Stu but it’s a tad much to turn up in the morning for a read of your favourite Independence site to be greeted by some mental (Joe) calling the posters and readers of the site every insulting name his troubled lonely wee mind can think up then stick in a platitude or two hoping that’ll guarantee his not being banned for insulting more than half the population of Scotland

    Then up pops another one informing us that their views have a right to be heard when actually they don’t have any rights whatsoever on a forum that’s not theirs, in the same way I don’t have rights if you don’t like something any of the rest of us might decide to write on your blog pages that could bring the kind of attention from more of these clowns

    Most folk on this site are fairly reasonable people, some of us get out of hand now and again and we get a row for it
    either by you or other posters to behave ourselves and generally the site is pretty well self policed in its behaviour and the better for it

    These guys are not reasonable people airing reasonable views in the spirit of anything close to discourse, these guys are only here to promote British Nationalism which is the very opposite to what the rest of us in our rambling scribblings are all about given that this is an Independence site and not a British Nationalist site

    As usual I enjoyed the cartoon from Chris as I always do

  54. Clootie says:


    Read your last post carefully. You cannot make one statement “Joe has the right etc” then in your next post set out who can’t. Who draws that line?

    It’s the Revs site and I do not know of any rules regarding who can post NOR how others can respond to their posts. A Unionist with a valid well argued point is very welcome in my own view.

  55. ahundredthidiot says:


    Who do you think you are? – you’re not the owner of this site, you’re not my mother or my father. What you are though, is one of those fannies at the rugby who shoosh people when they jeer at the opposition kicker on his long wait and run up to slot his goal and help beat your team.

    So, do me a favour, go and make a wee cuppa tea and learn to relax or I will put my fingers in my ears and go – joe, joe, joe joe, joe, joe.

  56. Republicofscotland says:

    Oh Christ, we’re about to undergo the mother of all union jackery campaigns.

  57. Dan says:

    Joe appears totes cool with UK democracy. Ya ken, that’s the type of democracy with dark money donations funding campaigns and where breaching electoral rules is the done thing for the establishment to lie and manipulate their way to retaining power to the detriment of the majority of the population.

    Joe’s fine with those currently in power following “the rules” because their current trajectory suits his own agenda as he ain’t a fan of the EU.
    For such an ardent stickler of procedure and operating and conforming to set guidelines, surprisingly Joe seems significantly less concerned that those in power broke “the rules” to get there in the first place…

  58. defo says:

    Oh dear. What were the other 99 like!

  59. Daisy Walker says:

    I love this cartoon.

    Re the Cherry court case… a thought, if it is not legal for the Scottish ‘part’ of WM to be prorogued because the Queen is supposed to stand up for our Sovereignty, is it possible Boris would have to re-open Westminster in order to close down Holyrood.

    Ach, probably that’s too orderly.

    Most likely they’ll try for a false flag incident before then and the Queens speech on 14th Oct will just declare a State of Emergency UK wide.

  60. Clootie says:


    I agree fully that we should not engage or feed the trolls. However one day a unionist may turn up who can actually argue a logical case for the union. I have met a couple of them over the years and the debate was very worthwhile (it didn’t change my mind but I enjoyed the exchange).
    I cannot recall ever encountering such a poster on wings.

  61. Welsh Sion says:

    RepublicofScotland @ 11.30 am

    Leave aside (just for a wee while) us Celts from the equation – although we have our own justifications to abjure the so-called ‘union flag’.

    I can never understand why some people of colour rejoice in it, when it’s well-established that many of their ancestors suffered so much – slavery, brutality, oppression, murder to name but four – under its colours. Why even some of them (like many of our white compatriots, too) are happy to see it as some sort of fashion chic, e.g. on smart phone covers, as sunglasses, on handbags etc. etc.

    I never been able to understand this.

    Give me a red dragon or saltire every time.

  62. defo says:

    With you on that Clootie’ but it took less than 20 comments, and an hour after posting, and we’re off down Joe’s diversion already.
    Ian B wrote recently of being tired of it all. Me too.
    I come (back) below the line to be inspired and get a boost of positivity, but end up drifting away, scunnered by all the disruptors and the head cases who buy into the cybernat warrior shtick.

    Drifts away…:-(

  63. Thepnr says:


    “You people are pathetic. No, not just pathetic – dangerous, uninformed, ignorant hypocrites.”

    Maybe it’s you who is out of touch, have you considered that possibility? If not, can you guess then who wrote the following article last week?

    As a result, the Labour Party is now led by Jeremy Corbyn, an old-fashioned far-left socialist. And 90,000 Conservative members, whose views have become more extreme as their numbers have fallen, recently selected Boris Johnson as their new leader, and thus as the country’s new prime minister.

    In doing so, they have chosen a mendacious chancer. It is no exaggeration to say that Johnson has lied his way to the top, first in journalism and then in politics. His ascent owes everything to the growing xenophobia and English nationalism that many Conservatives now espouse.

    Johnson is prime minister because he has promised to deliver Brexit by the end of October, recklessly assuring the world that he will take the United Kingdom out of the European Union with or without a deal, and whatever the consequences.

    It was only Chris Patten former Chairman of the Tory party and the last governor of Hong Kong and the current Chancellor of Oxford University.

    He was of course one of Thatcher’s golden boys in the “glory years”. It could be YOU who is the one going around with their eyes shut, to describe you as pig ignorant would just be scratching the surface.

  64. Sharny Dubs says:

    Folks seems to me the phrase “don’t get mad, get even” applies.

    Sure the system stinks, but it’s what we have to work with. So work we must.

  65. Thepnr says:


    Oops 🙂

    I really wanted an opportunity to post what Chris Patten wrote, this seemed as good a time as any and Joe gave me that excuse. Anyway onwards and upwards.

  66. mike cassidy says:

    So that was the Ruth Davidson Fan Club on the streets of Govan celebrating her rejection of a green costume.

  67. Scozzie says:

    I’m not too clued up with the recent events in Glasgow, but in general, I don’t think any marching with religious undertones should be allowed in Scotland.
    It’s bad enough we have sectarian issues in football; we really don’t need Scotland to succumb to political / religious sectarianism on the the streets through marching.

    I say this as a catholic with Irish heritage, we are not Northern Ireland or ROI. We do not have their history, we should not bring their troubles to our land (protestant & catholic).

    Scotland has enough hardships facing us in gaining independence, sectarianism on the streets will set us back massively in achieving independence.

  68. Daisy Walker says:

    Dominic Cummings has notified Conservative MPs that if they vote for the extension legislation next week, they will be “automatically deselected” before the next election via Conservative Central Office “even if their local organisations stand by them”.


    Got this from Ian Dunt’s twitter account. Also there, a poster showing the time scale WM has to vote through – well anything really, before Queenie gives her speech. Extremely short, kind of unrealistic really given any legislation has to pass both houses.

    Remember if it doesn’t get passed in both houses, its totally off the books once Queenie restarts government.

    Best wishes to all on the march today – hope the rains misses you.

  69. Proud Cybernat says:

    Well, if nothing else, PoliceScotland got a wee bit of practice of things to come when they’re deployed to NI. Was that the plan?

  70. Doug says:

    Great cartoon, Chris. Oh yes it is!

  71. Jack Murphy says:

    Brilliant cartoon Chris.

    The posterior flexion of Ross’s right hand
    His three night stubble
    The coo’s eyes resigned to it’s fate
    Johnson’s Churchillian stance
    Ruth storming off Stage Right

    I posted this a couple of days ago but perhaps Wings will indulge me a re-post seeing it’s a Saturday.

    To fill Ruth’s shoes her Tory successor MUST and WILL make the Party GREAT AGAIN !

    The late Rick Mayall AKA Alan B’stard delivering a brilliant first Conference speech in Perth. [smile emoji]


  72. Robert Peffers says:

    @Joe says: 31 August, 2019 at 8:30 am:

    ” … I know its a cartoon but honestly. You people are pathetic. No, not just pathetic – dangerous, uninformed, ignorant hypocrites.”

    Now that you mention, hypocrites, Joe, would you care to comment upon the hypocrisy of you claiming how a kingdom, (as in United Kingdom), can be a democracy?

    In all kingdoms, (excepting the kingdom of Scotland), the monarch is legally sovereign and thus the people of all other kingdom than Scotland are therefore subjects of the monarch/crown. In Scotland the monarch is the subject of the people – that is their servant who can be legally replaced by the people.

    In monarchies, Joe, the monarch’s word is law. Elizabeth Regina is legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England but not in the Kingdom of Scotland. The Kingdom of England, and so the United Kingdom, cannot therefore be a democracy.

    Just to clarify, in 1688 the English parliament kept the English monarchy as legally sovereign but legally bound to delegate their sovereignty to the Parliament of England. Note – not to the people but to the parliament of England.

    The Kingdom of Scotland is the one shining example of a monarchy where the monarch is the servant of the people because under the Scottish Rule of Law the people, not either the crown or the parliament, are legally sovereign.

    So, Joe, how do you equate the United Kingdom as a democracy when the head of state is legally sovereign in the Kingdom of England?

    Quite simply a monarchy with a legally sovereign monarch cannot possibly be a democracy.

    Don’t you get it, Joe? When a voter in the English Kingdom votes in a candidate as an MP they select someone to represent the English monarch but when a Scot votes in an MP that MP represents the electorate.

    That is why an MP under English law must legally swear an oath of allegiance to the crown but every Scottish MP has the choice to make a solemn affirmation instead.

    You are a charlatan, Joe, and you are everything that term implies.

  73. Capella says:

    @ Joe – you are either very confused or trying to confuse us. The people who are funding transactivism and manipulation of elections through data harvesting are the same people i.e. right wing American billionaires. They do it for the same reason i.e. money. It makes them obscenely rich.

    It is nothing to do with left wing activism.

  74. Robert Peffers says:

    @Clootie says: 31 August, 2019 at 8:41 am:

    ” … An added bonus Chrie, Joe is upset!”

    Ah! Clootie, but Joe is of a kind that is permanently upset.

    Rather in the same class as the rioters in Glasgow as reported in what passes for news in Scotland. Joe stands for democracy while also swearing allegiance to the parliament of England Westminster which is legally delegated by the monarchy of England as, “The Crown”.

    Thing is a state cannot be a democracy and a monarchy at the same time unless, as in Scotland, the monarch is not legally sovereign but the Queen of England is legally sovereign thus people like Joe, (and the OO), who are loyalists are hypocrites by claiming the United Kingdom is a democracy.

  75. Effijy says:

    I’ve been trying to see pictures of the Persons, as the Police spokesmen
    Chose to call them, who took criminal actions against a planned and permitted
    March through Glasgow.

    How very strange that virtually all footage from all sources seems to have no close up pictures
    Of hundreds of Extreme right wing fascists throwing flares, causing breach of the peace,
    Threatening behaviour, inciting violence and immobilising Glasgow’s transport infrastructure.

    Why are the police just looking at them as this prevailed?

    Are the Orange Rangers supporters suggesting that no flute bands should be allowed to march
    On Glasgow streets or are they proposing it’s for the Orange Order only?

    The decent policemen in danger due to the violent protesters trying to stop the march
    Deserve better from their corrupt bosses further up the ranks.

    Find them, jail them and make examples of them!

  76. Doug says:

    Definitely seeing an increase in posts declaring they are strongly pro-indy for Scotland but vehemently anti-EU. Not just in WoS but in other pro-indy websites also. A clear tactical move by internet britnats.

    They’re still clutching at straws though. I mean, who in their right minds wants to agree with EU-hating British nationalist extremists in England?

  77. Auld Rock says:

    If we end up with a NO DEAL BREXIT that’ll be the only coo to be seen on NE farms once populated with fine Aberdeen Angus beef on the hoove.

  78. Ghillie says:

    Chris, you have a lovely heart for hilarity 🙂

    Especially when the darkest moments in our lives are unfolding in front of us.

    A great gift and well used talent =)


    To the coo : ‘Look out!! It’s in front of you!!’

  79. John says:

    Proud Cybernat@12.15
    That is my thinking also , this march got permission from Glasgow City Council , the police would be asked if they had any concerns about it going ahead , obviously they had none , so who are the numpties that thought this was ever going to be a walk on the park in Govan !.

  80. Robert Peffers says:

    @Joe says: 31 August, 2019 at 9:01 am:
    @ Clootie

    ” … A large group of people (including political leaders) are talking about physically occupying/overturning parliament, in the face of a democratically held referendum, while demanding that their democratic rights be respected.”

    Joe, unless you can prove otherwise, and you cannot, the United Kingdom and it’s parliament cannot possibly be a democracy. As your entire argument is centred upon the Westminster parliament being democratic then your argument fails.

    I’ll prove the United Kingdom is not democratic for you yet again.
    1 – The Queen of England, under English law, is legally sovereign.

    2 – A sovereign monarch’s word is law and under English law the sovereign monarch must legally delegate her/his sovereign powers to the parliament of England.

    3 – So when a person under English law votes for a candidate to be an MP then they are voting for someone to be a delegate for the monarch’s sovereignty.

    4 – a legally sovereign monarchy cannot be democratic.

    Can you disprove any of the above points, Joe? If not your whole argument fails.

    Everything you have claimed is dependent upon the United Kingdom being a democracy but the very word kingdom proves that the United Kingdom cannot be a democracy.

    Here’s more proof for you. MPs must, by law, swear an oath, of loyalty to the monarch, (or affirm their loyalty).

    The Police must all do the same as must the armed forces and the security services and even the Civil Service. If charged with a crime a suspect is tried in court and the case is titled Someone vs The Crown.

    Every Act of Parliament must bear the royal signature to become law.

    A monarchy cannot also be a democracy – The United Kingdom is legally undemocratic. So all your arguments are mince.

  81. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Much as I hate to criticise Mr Cairns, I feel he has got it wrong here.

    Received wisdom is that, rather being the front end of a pantomime coo, ‘SNP Gain” Thompson is a horse’s arse.

  82. Thepnr says:

    I’m sure you’re aware that there are protests going on around the UK over Johnson’s proroguing of parliament. The one in London seems to be gaining a bit of momentum.

  83. Effijy says:

    Just found footage of last nights loyalist riots that have not
    Been edited by the UK Media or the Police.

    The vast majority are all dressed in black so indicating it
    Was pre planned and co-ordinated.

    The Police tried to push the crowd back of the main road
    And I can see policemen being struck by fists, having missiles
    Thrown at them and aggressors singing out the Billy Boys in their
    Faces and yet no arrests appear to have been made???

    By taking no action, I suggest these thugs are now confident
    That these actions are acceptable and free from any repercussion.

    Will they have any fears about doing all this tomorrow and perhaps
    Racking it up a notch or two ?

    I’m not Catholic nor a Celtic supporter or anti anyone who conducts themselves
    Reasonably and conducts themselves with respect for their fellow citizens!

  84. Terry callachan says:

    Hey JOE….I agree with you about the Brexiteers getting their brexit , I am steadfastly against brexit but I agree with you that the vote was in favour of brexit.
    I have to say that when the brexit vote took place I did not think about Scotland voting to remain and England voting to leave I just assumed that the remain vote would win easily.

    It was only once I was able to see that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain and England to leave that the problem sunk in nevertheless I agree with you JOE Brexiteers won that vote so brexit should happen and there is no point people arguing that Scotland and NI should be allowed to remain because we all knew it was a UK wide vote at the time of the vote.

    I am very strongly of the opinion that Scotland should have a Scottish independence referendum whenever it chooses because the SNP were elected on the basis that if Scotland was dragged out of the EU because England voted for brexit a Scottish independence referendum would be held.

    I see you are taking a pounding from the usual bunch on here JOE but as was said in an earlier post none of us own this website so you are free to hold your opinion and if I were you continue to argue your stance .

    Only weakness resorts to insults and usually there is no reasoning with them so it’s tempting to do the same and resort to insults as well but I’ve decided to avoid that having experienced what you are experiencing and it certainly feels better to just state your opinion and reply to any insults etc with good manners and reason.

  85. Ghillie says:

    RepublicofScotland @ 9.52 am

    Thankyou for posting the link to The National article on Steven Barclay’s insane move to block Scottish civil servants (and presumably all other Devolved and British civil servants) from attending EU meetings way before exit from the EU has actually taken place.

    What exactly and why are these civil servants being blocked from hearing and having a say in?

    Surely NOW all of Scotland’s fisher folk and farmers and foresters will see that their interests have been binned!

    Indeed were binned long since by the Unionist government who NEVER saw them as anything other than THEIR milk cow.

    Coos again.

  86. ahundredthidiot says:

    Defo @11:31

    The other 99 were just like you Defo – wrong.

    I was right once and now I think I’m a genius…..

    (maybe I was a wee bit harsh on you earlier – apologies for that)

  87. robertknight says:

    Perhaps last night’s riots were in reality just a training exercise for those in Police Scotland destined to be detached to the PSNI. Should have ‘Kettled’ the Orcs then nicked every one of them.

  88. Daisy Walker says:

    Very difficult to make arrests during a riot. That enquiry and prosecution has, from a purely practical reason, to come on a later date. CCTV evidence and identification of perps is therefore essential.

  89. Dr Jim says:

    You can join the EU and you can leave it freely, what the British Nationalists problem is they still want the benefits of membership of the club without paying the subs for it

    You don’t get to keep using the gym if you don’t pay for it

    The UK Union however is different, Scotland doesn’t pay a sub for this membership because all Scotland’s money is removed before we get it and the UK Union decide how much they want to subtract of Scotland’s money before they allow Scotland to have some of it returned

    The UK Union spend what they want on whatever they decide is good for them then they borrow money from themselves to pay it back plus interest which they then add to the subraction of Scotland’s own money whether the money spent by the UK is on Scotland’s behalf or not because Scotland is treated as part of a whole country as opposed to a partner country in it’s own right

    This is then not a Union of countries but a monopoly of one country over others dictating law finance culture and governance

    So then how do you leave a Union that dictates you’re not a Union when it comes to the decision of leaving that Union that is in effect a Union by popular title and acclaim only

    It’s a bit like calling your house a name like maybe Dunrobbin or The Arches when of course neither of these names may literally mean you were a robber or you have actual Arches on your house, it just means that’s a name you call something and in actuality is just a postcode so the postie knows where to drop your letters off

    Scotland in this UK Union is treated as a postal address and depending where you live in Scotland you may be charged more for this delivery service

    Terms and conditions apply

  90. Terry callachan says:

    It’s clear that the policy , referred to by the police commander , of allowing peaceful marches as allowed by the law of the land , is ineffective because these marches are not peaceful.

    Orange order marches are not peaceful because they upset people and even though those people do not confront the marchers it is clear that these marches are in no way peaceful.

    Now we are seeing the orange order people attacking the Irish republican marchers in Glasgow and the question asked is why are Irish republican marchers allowed to march in Scotland ?
    The thing is these Irish republican marchers are folk who live in Scotland .

    The question also needs to be asked why are people who live in Scotland and are in orange order flute bands allowed to travel to Northern Ireland to take part in marches over there, it’s certainly causing disruption and anger that they are allowed to march through catholic housing estates in Northern Ireland .

    These marchers, on both sides are causing a breach of the peace and worse it’s time for the law to recognise and accept this and ban them from marching in public places.
    Let them march in unpopulated areas at 7am or 8am on a Sunday where they will not upset others or ban them completely.

  91. Thepnr says:

    This is just gobsmacking from Steve Barclay Secretary of State for Brexit.

    The car industry’s ‘just in time’ supply chains rely on fluid cross-Channel trade routes. >1,100 trucks filled with car parts cross seamlessly from EU into UK each day. We need to start talks now on how we make sure this flow continues if we leave without a deal.

    Whit! He has only just realised that now??? We’re screwed.

  92. Dan says:

    @Doug at 1.01pm

    Aye, you’re not wrong. It is permeating through to wider society too, though generally easily countered.
    Various folk I’ve had conversations with over the past few weeks have come out with the most bizarre and tedious complaints about the smallest of EU regulations which in general are for the greater good ie. Health, safety, welfare related matters.
    These folk seem myopic to focus on their one wee bugbear and want to leave the “bad EU” because of it, while the bigger picture shows they will then be under the rule of a UK government that certainly seems intent on trashing society in numerous ways which will have way more impact on their lives than a solitary EU reg. eg. Access to free at point of need health services, raising retirement age, etc.

  93. Robert Peffers says:

    @defo says: 31 August, 2019 at 12:00 pm:

    ” … Ian B wrote recently of being tired of it all. Me too.
    I come (back) below the line to be inspired and get a boost of positivity, but end up drifting away, scunnered by all the disruptors and the head cases who buy into the cybernat warrior shtick.”

    Aye! Well, defo, get this – you do not cure anything by ignoring it. If you have symptoms of illness, like perhaps cancer, the very worse thing to do is to ignore those bad symptoms. The best thing is to face the symptoms and deal with them.

    Contrary to the common belief these people are not trolls for trolls have no real motive they just troll to annoy. Those coming here to Wings are not here to just annoy, they have an agenda and will not just go away if ignored.

  94. Douglas says:

    Slightly off topic, what is the process for choosing a new leader for the Scottish Conservatives? Is it the same sort of long process as the UK tory leadership, if so then I will probably lose the will to live!!!

  95. manandboy says:

    A series of tweets by Marc Owen Jones on the weaponisation of Twitter. Very interesting, and helps answer the question ‘is propaganda a war?’ Absolutely.

    “[Thread] I analysed around 13,000 retweets of Boris Johnson’s tweet that read “The referendum result must be respected. We will leave the EU on 31st October. #LeaveOct31″. He tweeted this twice, once on 15th Aug and again on 27th. The following is what I found: #StopTheCoup”

  96. John says:

    According to Jackson Carlaw you will have to wait till 2020 for a new leader .

  97. Proud Cybernat says:

    Our status as being, once again, an independent nation state. It’s coming. You can smell it in the air. It’s within touching distance.

    We’re almost there folks. No taking any feet off the gas tho.

  98. Thepnr says:

    The chickens are coming home to roost as the reality of a no deal Brexit starts to become apparent.

    A ‘Brexit bonanza’ for UK fishing? That’s a fishy tale with an unhappy ending

    The industry may become one of the starkest examples no-deal folly, with those dependent on EU markets facing devastation…

    A myth has been propagated by Brexiteers. There is a single “British fishing industry” which will benefit from reclaiming the “60/70/80% of British fish” caught by EU boats.

    No, there isn’t. There are competing interests. English v Scottish; deep-sea fishing v inshore fishing; industrial v family-scale boats; fishers v processors. Some of the most vibrant, locally important and ecologically respectful parts of the UK industry have nothing to gain and everything to lose from Brexit.

    They depend on shellfish, lobsters, crabs and langoustines (crayfish) that are quota-free or are overwhelmingly allocated to the UK. More than 80% is sold to the continent (mostly Spain and France). This trade has grown large because of the border-free EU single market.

    Post-Brexit, trucks arriving in France with fish caught by scores of small boats will have to supply scores of “origin” and “health” documents – one for each boat and each catch. Traders will have to find UK local inspectors in working hours to verify the origin of the seafood and vets to certify its quality.

    Another Brexit fantasy of the forecast boom for British fishing has been exposed as just another Brexit lie. Somehow I think then when the reality lands on Brexits biggest supporters they’re not going to like it one little bit.

    The voters that asked for Brexit will just have to suck it up like good little sheep. We can make other plans and that gets more likely by the day.

  99. Robert Peffers says:

    @Douglas says:31 August, 2019 at 2:06 pm:

    ” … Slightly off topic, what is the process for choosing a new leader for the Scottish Conservatives? Is it the same sort of long process as the UK tory leadership, if so then I will probably lose the will to live!!!”

    I think they draw straws, Douglas, and the one with the shortest straw is forced to become leader.

  100. Robert Peffers says:

    14 minutes ago from YouTube:-

  101. Robert Peffers says:

    More O/T:

    Sound is poor but here it is. Joanne Cherry explaining the Scottish Court case:-

  102. Dr Jim says:

    Well you’ve got Carlaw who believes he’s a Conservative but dim then you’ve got Tomkins who is a careerist say anything do anything to advance his career person

    I say person when I refer to Tomkins because he’s not a politician, in fact he’s barely human he’s a rabid ladder climber and he’ll crawl up anybody’s backside to get there, so on balance the next Tory leader in Scotland will likely be Tomkins because if Carlaw gets in his way Tomkins will move him out of the way with some snidey maneuver, and the nasty right wingers will back him up

    So yes Boris Tomkins for Scottish Tory leader (oh he’ll defo change his name to Boris)

  103. Abulhaq says:

    Johnson & allies have indeed staged a ‘coup’, he has effectively run rings around the opposition who out manoeuvred have thrown a collective hissy fit.
    Given the UK does not possess a formal written constitution, he has done nothing unconstitutional, he’s just played a rather clever hand.
    Who are the bumbling idiots now?
    Brexit probably with no deal awaits and the shocking possibility that Johnson might win a workable majority were there to be a GE is scaring the proverbial out of the buttoned up, self righteous matrons on the margins.

  104. Robert Peffers says:

    Even more O/T:-

    Ian Blackford from YouTube less than 20 minutes ago:-

  105. Dan says:

    A quick look at #Dunfermline seems to suggest the march is going well. lol

  106. Surely Govan last night was just proof that the Ulsterisation of Scottish Politics which was begun by (T)Ruthless has now moved into the next phase… maybe she doesn’t like what is coming down the line towards us and that is why she has stood down.

    James Kelly should hang his head in shame and fingers crossed for the match today- Police will have their work cut out trying to put this genie back in the bottle and it’s possible NO marches will be the outcome.

    Seems that each day is bringing a new ‘shock’ to ‘British’ politics and I wonder just how much of it is pre-planned and authorised by powers held elsewhere.

    We knew they would throw everything at us and it has to be done in a way that seems natural so as not to arouse any suspicions.

    How do they stop all these pesky Indy marches – easy, Govan last night has just demonstrated their tactics perfectly.

  107. Robert Peffers says:

    Dunfermline live stream right now:-

  108. Thepnr says:


    LOL 🙂

  109. Lenny Hartley says:

    Auld bob, @1:18 i thought you more than most would know that Royal Navy Personnel do not swear loyalty to the Monarch.

  110. Republicofscotland says:

    Thanks to the unionist branch acolytes at Holyrood, sectarian violence in Scotland has raised its ugly profile. Apparently a Mr Fraser, has retweeted a link to the sash.

  111. Vestas says:

    I see posts above suggesting AbiesAlba (as was) as Scottish Tory “leader”….?

    In 2014 it’d be beyond parody to have someone pretending to be a gay Slovenian pouring scorn on indyref1 becoming Scots Tory leader but we’ve long since departed down some sort of rabbit blackhole in political terms.

    We live in “interesting times”, gods help us all 🙁

  112. Vestas says:

    You can work out the “Caesar” autoedit yourselves, probably saves me from a court case anyway 😀

  113. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Doug @ 13:01,

    Well observed there. It was happening before, but it’s being amplified now. Trying to peel off the dwindling Yes-Leavers.

    But it’s becoming ever more obvious by the day that to be a Leaver is to subscribe to a BritNat power grab in which we in Scotland will all be the rear end of pantomime cows if we don’t get out PDQ.

    Scratch anyone who rants on about the “EU dictatorship” and you’ll discover someone who has no problem whatever with blocking Scotland from leaving the UK. And we had one of them on here early off-topic rudely calling us “hypocrites”?!

  114. Dr Jim says:

    The difficulty with the Independence marches is that we’re all Catholics

    We’ve got Protestant Catholics, Catholic Catholics, Hindu Catholics, Muslim Catholics, Black Catholics, Brown Catholics, White Catholics, there are even some Chinese Catholics now

    So you can see how the British Nationalist sectarian bigots can get confused by all us Multi Denominational Catholics

    If you’re not one of them, you’re a Catholic, they don’t do discrimination it’s too complicated

  115. robertknight says:

    Dr Jim

    I humbly request to be recognised as an Atheist Catholic.

  116. cirsium says:

    @republicofscotland, 9.52am

    Re: Stephen Barclay’s decision not to allow Scottish civil servants to attend EU meetings From now on we will only go to the meetings that really matter, reducing attendance by over half and saving hundreds of hours.

    So, agriculture and fishing don’t matter to the UK government?

  117. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Time the Scottish Government start acting as if we are already independent and turn up at these EU meetings to represent Scotlands interests.

    “Scottish officials regularly attend EU meetings about devolved matters in Brussels – agriculture and fishing are the big ones – but the UK is saying as the member state they won’t send officials unless it’s about major national issues such as security.”

    So not UK Civil Servants in place of Scottish ones but NO CIVIL SERVANTS AT ALL!!

  118. Dan says:

    I’m a Catholic, I was indoctrinated at a young age and through my life I’ve worshipped loads of the furry meowing critters, Tabby, Ginger, Tortoiseshell, Persian, Abyssinian tree climbing, you name it, I’ve stroked it.

    We had so many cats that at one point I believe two kittens went to Muriel Gray, but they were too wild so we got them back.
    Probably for the best as she’d most likely have set fire to them…

  119. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 14:23,

    Well said. There are those who have a far better handle on this than me, but I understand that the West Coast fisherfolk have in any case always had a rather different outlook to the EU issue than the NE “Cosa Nostra”.

    A proto-independent Scotland will no doubt need and wish to enter negotiations for EU membership in its own right, rather than as a neglected and exploited coat-tail of England, and it’s just fine by me that the people of scotland (all the people) get a say in accepting or rejecting it, f that’s what it takes.

    But if we wait too long, there won’t be (eg.) any native West Coast fishers or processors left to take any advantage of whatever transpires.

    That’s the danger of delaying too long. It can create “facts on the ground” that override all the theories and hopes. That’s what the BritNat-Leaver coup is ultimately all about.

  120. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dan @ 15:45,

    I think you mean Cat-a-holic, Dan, no? =laugh=

    (These damned spell checkers. =grin=)

  121. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dr Jim, ive been discriminated , im a Pastarafarian Catholic.

  122. Thepnr says:

    I think some people are their own worst enemies. Here’s an example of muddled thinking (in my opinion) from and article for tomorrows Observer.

    “Mark Wallace, a former soldier, can’t see the problem with proroguing parliament. “It’s not anti-democratic at all,” he insists. He voted Leave but he’s particularly keen to get out of the EU as soon as possible because, he says, the medicines he needs are becoming increasingly difficult to get. But won’t that be a much greater problem if the UK leaves without a deal?

    “No,” he says, arguing that the country will then be free to make whatever arrangements it wants.”

    What can you say in response to that? Someone that believes Brexit will make it easier to get the medicines he needs. What can he possibly think is preventing him from getting them now while in the EU?

    There’s an awful lot of muddled thinking like that out there. Personally, I blame Nicola sturgeon and the SNP!

  123. Thepnr says:

    Full article in case you’re interested.

  124. Dan says:

    A few short vids (less than 2 mins each) uploaded to YT today.
    Apologies if they have been posted before but thought it’d be handy to have links in one place.

    Ian Blackford.

    Joanna Cherry.

    Nicola Sturgeon.

  125. galamcennalath says:

    OT if you want to know how and why Brexit is being driven, the movie Vice is an interesting incite into the way the far right operates. It’s the story of Dick Cheney’s rise to absolute power.

    A few years ago I would have doubted its relevance to the UK, however recent events are all from the far right ‘grab power and make money’ instructions manual.

  126. Tatu3 says:

    What could Westminster do if the Scottish civil servants just turned up to the EU meetings? Sack them all? Lock them up?
    So they should go. Stand up for scotland

  127. Andy smith says:

    Dr Jim
    Just to really confuse them ..I’m an ex-catholic Catholic !

  128. galamcennalath says:

    Dr Jim says:

    If you’re not one of them, you’re a Catholic

    It’s true. The dark fringe of extreme militant ‘religion’ is Scotland sees the world as being one of them, or not, and not defaults to Catholic.

    I remember being in a student flat many many decades ago at a party. There was a large poster of Christ of Saint John of the Cross by Salvador Dalí which hangs in Kelvingrove. Somehow a non student gate crasher found himself in front of the poster. He went berserk and totally lost the plot believing himself to have become isolated it a nest of Catholics!

    The poster wasn’t there for any particular religious reasons, just celebrating one of Glasgow’s great art treasures. I doubt if anyone present knew who was, or wasn’t, Catholic. But to this guy, it was red rag to a bull. Fortunately it is one of the few times I have ever witnessed up close and personal just how totally deranged some Scots’ think can be.

    Really, you want to just stay away from them!

  129. Robert Peffers says:

    @robertknight says: 31 August, 2019 at 3:36 pm:

    ” … I humbly request to be recognised as an Atheist Catholic”

    Aye! Robert, but is nobody going to speak up for the Agnostic Catholics?

  130. Robert Peffers says:

    @cirsium says: 31 August, 2019 at 3:38 pm:

    ” … So, agriculture and fishing don’t matter to the UK government?”

    Perhaps they plan to revive the WWII, “Dig for Victory”, campaign?

  131. galamcennalath says:

    “What happens now? Four scenarios for Brexit’s weirdest week “

    Firstly, it fails to mention the Court of Session case. But hey hoe, it’s from the London centric Guardian.

    That said, none of the options seem very likely!

  132. Clootie says:

    The main weapon of the unionist (after division) is to turn people away from politics to create low turnouts. The control of Political choices and decisions are how they win.

    How do we win! The same way Ghandi did – you keep challenging their legitimacy. Day after Day. You just keep going.

    I come to Wings to be assured other like souls are doing that.
    I go to AUOB marches to be surrounded with that positive vibe.

    They want politics to be boring. It often is but it will always decide the World that your children will grow up in.

  133. Frank Gillougley says:

    Dr Jim – I like it.
    But whitaboot about the anarchist catholics?

  134. Welsh Sion says:

    Let me see if I’ve got it right.

    Leavers voted for Brexit in order to reassert the sovereignty of the UK Parliament; a Parliament which is now going to be suspended at the whim of an unelected Prime Minister and the approval of a non-elected Head of State, so its Members will not be able to discuss how that (alleged) reassertion of sovereignty is going to affect them.


    Shamocracy – Disunited Kingdumb style.

  135. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says:31 August, 2019 at 3:45 pm:

    ” … That’s the danger of delaying too long. It can create “facts on the ground” that override all the theories and hopes. That’s what the BritNat-Leaver coup is ultimately all about.”

    Yes but there is one wee problem about all that. Who is the best judge of when is the right time and when is it too late?

    Should we trust the First Minister of Scotland’s parliament, The leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party or someone commenting on someone else’s blog on the internet?

    Gee! That’s a difficult decision for a person wanting to decide who is best placed to know what’s going on at the cutting edge of the political scene in Scotland?

  136. Dr Jim says:

    It’s a hilarious state of affairs this anti everybody who isn’t one of them religions when they all go on holiday to nice warm Catholic countries and wander around their churches quite happily viewing all the murals architecture and stained glass and they don’t try to kill all those folks

    Of course it could be that it doesn’t occur to them that the same folk serving them their dinners and drinks and cleaning their hotel rooms, entertaining them, flying the planes that took them to these nice places are not staffed by the same people as *THEM*

    As we’ve seen by this thread alone we’ve added some denominations Atheist Catholics, Agnostic Catholics and no doubt there’ll be many more, and it kinda makes you think that these anti everybody Catholic haters are in the extreme minority and are in fact No Rapeepel at all

    It’s also funny that if you’re a football playing Catholic or indeed the Catholic manager who plays for their team you get a free pass for the day

    But woe betide that Catholic Manager or player should he not perform to the satisfaction of the Anti Them religion then the free pass to *Them* is withdrawn and that Catholic becomes a Catholic Catholic again, and goes straight on to the hate list

    The rules in the Anti Catholic religion are simple, if in doubt treat everybody as if they’re not them

    These ideas must come from no religious text i’ve ever seen, read, or heard of in existence ever, leading me to believe something has gone wrong with the theory of evolution in the case of this group of people

  137. Robert Peffers says:

    @Thepnr says: 31 August, 2019 at 4:11 pm:

    ” … Personally, I blame Nicola sturgeon and the SNP!”

    Oh! Why not? Seems like almost everyone else in Scotland, leavers, remainers, don’t knows and everything in between blames her as well – another one on the blamers side will hardly make any difference in the final count.

  138. Bobp says:

    Clootie 4.59pm spot on clootie. When im a bit despondent thinking that does anyone in Scotland care about indy.once i step of that train at glasgow central from euston, head for kelvingrove park, see those saltires ,.atmosphere , and ever growing crowd, i know i am with likeminded people, and i am reassured that our nation will one day be free.

  139. manandboy says:

    For the record: In Scotland, there is only one kind of sectarianism – the anti-Catholic variety. It’s been that way since the Protestant Reformation in Scotland in the 16th Century.

    The Unionist media is compelled to distort this truth, which it does by means of the ‘both sides are as bad as the other’ meme, and by conflating religious belief and football rivalry.
    The English Ruling Class is of course, more than happy to maintain Scotland’s so-called ‘sectarian divide’ because a divided electorate is a defeated electorate, when elections come around.

    Then, add the all pervasive British anti-Irish racism and the English Establishment can sit back and relax. Power over Scotland – sorted.

    Independence is not an option. It’s absolutely essential.

  140. Robert Peffers says:

    @Tatu3 says: 31 August, 2019 at 4:30 pm:

    What could Westminster do if the Scottish civil servants just turned up to the EU meetings?

    Well they could stop their pay for being AWOL, sack them then refuse them welfare benefits for making themselves unemployed.

  141. Bobp says:

    Manandboy 5.21pm never a truer word.

  142. Bobp says:

    Dan 3.45pm. I’m an agnostic catholic Dan, and I’ve stroked a few pussies in my time. I like persians.

  143. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 31 August, 2019 at 4:57 pm:

    ” … Firstly, it fails to mention the Court of Session case.”

    They do not need to be London centric to not tell it correctly. Any Scottish rag I read reports the Scots Judge as having refused the request when the truth is the judge just refused the interim interdict but left it to be decided at the previously stated day.

  144. chicmac says:

    Brilliant cartoon.

  145. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Peffers @ 17:07,

    Fair comment. But happily this isn’t a fascist statelet with an autocrat for leader (despite occasional BritNat calumnies), so the views of its citizens, as expressed freely in public, have to count for something as well, no?

    Otherwise how could anyone in a position to influence matters know the true state of public opinion? (They might even be misled into thinking we were still asleep instead of being fully ready for decisive action.)

  146. Weechid says:

    I was going to say that hes the wrong end of the cow – but maybe it’s safer for the other end that way.

  147. Robert Peffers says:

    @Welsh Sion says: 31 August, 2019 at 5:06 pm:

    ” … Let me see if I’ve got it right.”

    Did you forget the wee bit that the United Kingdom couldn’t be a democracy in the first place as the Queen of the Kingdom of England is legally sovereign and a legal sovereign’s word is law.

    So even although the monarchy, in 1688, had to legally delegate their sovereign powers to the parliament of England to administer on the sovereign’s behalf you cannot have a democracy and a sovereign monarchy at the same time. So you are correct Westminster’s democracy is indeed shambolic.

  148. Juteman says:

    manandboy 5.21pm

    A perfect description of where we are at.

    British rule uses sons of the manse like Broon to keep it going.
    I wonder what secrets the establishment know about The Broon?

  149. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Peffers says:

    interim interdict

    If they do mention interim interdict, it’s qualified as “an interim interdict is what Scots call an injunction”, or similar construct.

    Why not “an interim interdict which is called an injunction in England”?

    This matters. It’s not pedantic. It’s one of their little tricks. They present the English version as the default, and the Scots version as different/non standard.

    They will usually avoid highlighting difference, however if forced to, they adopt English=normal but Scottish=deviant language.

  150. Hamish100 says:

    robertknight says:
    31 August, 2019 at 3:36 pm
    Dr Jim

    I humbly request to be recognised as an Atheist Catholic.

    Naaaa, yir eyebrows are shifting the gither when ye speak. Definitely an agnostic catholic.

  151. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says:31 August, 2019 at 5:46 pm:

    ” … so the views of its citizens, as expressed freely in public, have to count for something as well, no?”

    Oh! Come on, Robert, you know very well that I have answered that one till I’m yellow in the face , (I’d have said blue but after those riots … … ),

    But I digress.

    In the first place we do not have just one administration interested in what the people of Scotland think, we have two, and they are in a political war with each other. Thus to use an open forum to be in any way critical to one administration is to, at very least, boost the moral of the other.

    I have also pointed out that airing grievance against one administration on a public forum is not likely to make the slightest impression and further pointed out that every SNP MEP, MP, MSP and councillor is contactable via email, telephone and snail-mail and their contact details readily available.

    Not to mention that anyone can join the SNP, attend branch meetings and each one has the same number of votes as Nicola Sturgeon herself. Anyone, with a seconder, can raise a matter at branch meetings and that matter must be recorded in the minutes and dealt with. All of which will gain notice whereas dripping constantly on a blog will only assist the opposition and they will, without doubt, act upon it. Westminster spends a fortune upon security services for just those purposes. Some of which I’d warrant you have not even heard about.

    Wings is the best known Scottish political blog on the internet. Do you really imagine that the Westminster security services doesn’t have it under close surveillance?

    I am regularly accused of slavishly following the SNP but the truth is there is probably no one else on Wings that has, over many years, clashe4d with the SNP hecht heid ains. I didn’t do it on public forums, newspapers, TV station or Radio phone ins.

    The fact remains that every one on Wings who is critical of the SNP or even states the SNP are doing nothing is music to the ears of the Unionists. So sad when the critic could email Nicola Sturgeon directly.

    ” … Otherwise how could anyone in a position to influence matters know the true state of public opinion?

    Have I not just explained how here just once more and explained it countless other times on Wings before?

    I read wings and sometimes there are more critics of the FM/SG/SNP on here that I can find on the Scotsman, Daily Mail and Express combined. If it can depress a die hard like myself how do you imagine it affects a disenchanted Labour voter looking for something better to support? Hell! After reading Wings some days they would instantly go off and support the LibDems or even Tories. And don’t say I have not said all this countless times before.

  152. AnneMarie D says:

    Sectarianism has always been the classic bogeyman. Billy Connolly got it right for my parents’ generation. It was a fact that they were told an independent Scotland would be a protestant country and they would end up like the Catholics in Norther Ireland. I was young but I remember clearly my dad saying that is why he voted against Devolution in 1979, nevermind independence.

    At some point this has all changed, maybe it is the Union flag all over Better Together and the simple fact that to be an independence supporter is to be against the mere existence of a British state. I welcome that but it leaves a legacy of desperation. I was brought up in Glasgow and we simply never questioned the reality that the Orange Lodge could do as they please.

    My only gratitude to the Catholic church is that I am now a fully fledged atheist so I have no drum to beat for the idiots that still think that is an identity worth protecting. However, I know without a shadow of a doubt that the sad,but diminishing, “persons” who will riot under a Union flag, come what may, will not ever ever ever ever be persuaded that they are on the wrong side of history.

    They will try to intimidate us and make us think that we might be opening up a can of worms in pursuing independence. Remember one thing. Loyalism does simply not know what it is loyal to. If they riot against the police as they have done in Northern Ireland then they riot against the forces of the crown. We know that makes no sense.

    The Scottish police are not political. They know that to go in hard will only fuel the flames. Let’s show them up for what they are – loyal to f***k all. For the next round of Orange matches we should ask the police how we will arrange counter demos and maybe then they will put a stop to this.

  153. Dr Jim says:

    The one thing the Intelligence services fear is other people’s intelligence

  154. Bobp says:

    Robert peffers 6.52pm. Sometimes you call a spade a spade Bob, but your posts are ones I always read, and always on the money. So keep on posting.

  155. Lenny Hartley says:

    Forced myself to watch both the BBC and STV news, the riot in Glasgow is all Glasgow Councils fault or those kafolics. Not one person Interviewed in the street or of the Unionist Parties mentioned that ‘The counter Demonstration” was by morons of an unionist/British Nationalist persuasion.

    On another subject , The good news is that our wee (actually well attended) Pro EU Demo today in Brodick , I spoke to several people whom I have never met before, One shall we say Mature lady whilst being a Yesser had never attended a March or Demo in her life , a few others had never attended an event organised by the local SNP branch before and most surprising to me was a local who I unfriended on facebook as he was continually sniping at the SNP Government and/or Independence. He was not attending the Demo but was passing by , he asked what the demo was about and told me that he was now voting for yes and said the referendum could not come soon enough.
    Things are moving.

  156. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 18:09,

    It’s because they see themselves as addressing a purely English audience. Most of the time we only really exist in their minds as a kind of theoretical construct. Existing in principle but not really there as actual listeners.

    Spend any time listening to R4 (or the English Home Service as I have taken to calling it) and you are left in no doubt about the tangible (yet entirely self-unaware) insularity. I could give loads of trivial yet telling examples, eg. introducing a reform of their divorce law with an “our” prefix.

    If anything it has become more pronounced of late, as if the broadcasters have already tacitly accepted that we are gone, and have dropped even a pretence of trying.

  157. Bobp says:

    Along with dr Jim, manandboy, Daisy Walker, thepnr, effijy, and many others to numerous to mention.

  158. Bobp says:

    Should have said great posts from these folks on wings.

  159. Cubby says:

    BBC Reporting Scotland

    The chancer that is the former FM of Scotland Lord MacConnell turns up stating that we need strong political leadership to put an end to sectarianism and we need to work together.

    “Let’s get together and put sectarianism in the dustbin of history.” Says the Lord.

    That would be very nice. Pity his own party was involved in removing the OBF law which has certainly helped spike sectarian/thuggery behaviour in recent months. Not a word of the removal of this law by the Britnat media. You would think it never existed.

    What exactly did the good Lord do about the problem when he was FM? Britnats have some brassnecks

  160. Dan says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland at 3:48 pm

    Pfft! Pedant. Next you’ll be telling me “dogmatic” doesn’t describe the perpetual process of getting a new dog each time the the current one expires.
    A process not dissimilar to the never ending Labour Branch Office in Scotchland leadership circus. Just watch, as soon as what’s his name… eh… Ryvita Laxative? goes, there will be another. Whack-a-mole stylée.

    @Bobp at 5:35 pm

    Easy tiger?

    Things are getting fairly heated on a global scale with the few psychopathic arsehole factions trying to win the end game of monopoly, but we may be witnessing the slow awakenings of the catatonic agnostic pacifists.
    Truly a potentially massive (voting) force of yet undetermined capabilities, that have patiently remained stealthily dormant, just waiting for the right moment to mobilise and unleash their ire on those few that have caused so many issues for so many people and our planet.

  161. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dan @ 19:25,

    Heh, heh. Touché!

  162. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dan @ 19:25,

    Yeh, given the turnover of NorthBritLab leaders, “Laxative” seems a very appropriate generic name. Good call. Hardly worth remembering the real ones these days.

    By the time it finally gets round to (their) James Kelly, the whole world will know the northern branch office is fatally “holed below the waterline”. Even El Gordo will know it. (That’s assuming of course there are any left by then.)

  163. Sandy says:

    Gordie Broon didn’t say who he was talking to in Brussels. Was it a janitor or tea lady?

  164. Republicofscotland says:

    The ultra unionist Jack McConnell pops up on the unionist STV news offering his help to fight sectarianism.

    Tell you what Mr Ermine Vermin, if you want to help,get back the £1.5 billion quid of Scotland’s money that you handed back to Westminster in exchange for yourknighthood.

  165. Thepnr says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    If things work out for Labour as they’re currently looking in Scotland they’ll be back down to a single MP, I’d prefer none but can accept just the one.

    As far as Rupert Lush is concerned I doubt he’ll be around to stand again in 2021 and if he does I’d hope that a new Independence party formed by the Rev will make a big dent in his MSP’s too. Can’t be long now before they continually poll less than 10% of the vote in Scotland.

    Well done to the Labour “big beasts” like James Kelly, Anas Sarwar, Jackie Baillie, Iain Gray, Johann Lamont, Neil Findlay etc. ect. ect. LOL

  166. Liz g says:

    Robert Peffers @ 6.52
    I know that is your position on the subject Robert as you pointed out you’ve said so often enough.
    But that’s not the whole picture.

    Firstly.. There’s others who disagree,and that’s their right.

    Secondly…There’s this site,which is very clear is not an SNP site,but rather a political discussion site. Not everyone here is an SNP member!
    There is, as I’m sure you know and appreciate a social aspect to this site, and that by definition means that people who post also air their doubts, fears, worries and their need to vent.
    The opponent’s of Independence may very well try to pick up on a chink of dissent…. but just as credible, the SNP may also be using us a weather vain of response to their actions and projections of their intentions?
    Therefore,it seems to me, the best thing we can do is not drive ourselves to distraction trying to combat any of it,and just be as honest as we can warts and all.
    It could just be that the SNP will get a dam sight more from our musings than the British state ever could!
    They (SNP) need to know how we really feel and should be able to depend on us Wingers to say it like it is..

    Thirdly…. My late daughter in law worked for the Scottish Government.Her job was to answer the emails and other correspondence on behalf of the Justice Secretary (Humsa).
    He never actually saw any of them. So I cannot imagine that the arrangements are any different for the First Minister.
    So an email to Nicola while worth while by volume is no a singular option!

    And lastly….
    While I have only a bit of an idea what went on last night,and I’m not even going to look because I don’t want to rake it all back up…. I know that, you know that you can be crotchety and you’ve claimed the right to be at your age
    ( nae argument there) but with rights come responsibility and that means sometimes remembering that ye are not always answering a squadie from the 77th but mibbi a Lady Winger with her own concerns venting to her Wings family. Staying factual and staying polite are not the same thing as fine well ye know,and I’m sure hurting another Winger is never your intention Robert and you have the language skills not to do so.
    Remember how much patience you had with Rock?
    We all wondered how you did it!
    And we admired that.
    Don’t lose that respect now Robert,not when we’re so close and you’ve a part to play!

    Anyhoo…. I hope you are keeping well and getting geared up for the Campaign x

  167. frogesque says:

    Robert J Sutherland: I think the real one was “ExLax”

    Looked like chocolate but gave you the shits. Bit like SLab.

    O/t Great rally in Dunfermline today despite the weather. HOOP demo at Holyrood on Thursday 11am-5pm ish. Perth next Saturday.

    Keep the pressure on.

    See also there is a petition doing the rounds that wants a 2/3 majority for Indy for it to be recognised. Fuck off might be an appropriate response!

  168. call me dave says:

    Enjoyed my day at the Dunfermline march with my ‘high maintenance’
    granddaughter. Weather was fine warm even.

    Joined the march at the top of the New Row after we walked up the steep hill after stupidly parking near the Alhambara theatre and the Royal British Legion Club both sporting Union flags.
    We were a bit puggled as we started in behind the march 🙁

    However after that it was downhill all the way into the Glen.
    (A few 20? Union Folk) demonstrating on the pavement to the side.

    Good crowd (much higher than last time there) plenty of stalls and music from the Blue Bonnets and various singers.

    Touched the Wings hairy string again (been a while) most folk I spoke to were positive although wondering what the WM will get up to next.

    Couple of folk talking up for the candidates only on the list as per WoS theory. One saying that even some SNP MSP and councillors dont really understand the D’Hondt system. I nodded sagely 🙂

    Counted 4 WOS flags among the flutters and plenty Saltire and Rampant Lions, even a few Unicorns and many various others including a St Georgie.

    Lots of lurkers for Wings a few I talked to enjoyed the read but were not confident of expressing strong views.

    Pensioners for Independence Group busy and although I am well up on most of that I got the full Monty…it felt rude to interrupt the man and lady in full flow so I was patient and took it all in.

    Best part was being surrounded and ushered in by the bikers all the way from Halbeath into Dunfermline (granddaughter counted 50+) and many folk catching the sight from their posh Cherry Bank hooses too.

    Donated to Wings Tent and some others and finally was rooked by my Granddaughter for a few extras…skint until tomorrow.

    Great day! 🙂

  169. Thepnr says:

    @call me dave

    Thanks for the excellent report, a wee bit positivity never goes amiss. Glad to hear you and the granddaughter had a great day.

  170. Mac says:

    I think many will appreciate this fine article.

    Particularly the comments on Scotland and NI


  171. Dr Jim says:

    @Mac 9:03pm

    I’ve seen the video at the end before and it just brought it right back how angry I was at the time, and now I’m bloody angry all over again because I felt it to be genuine but everybody dismissed it as dodgy and absolutely nothing was ever made of it

    The thing is if that film was dodgy you’d have thought the authorities would have wanted to charge the individual responsible for attempting to perpetrate an electoral fraud but again nothing ever was made of it

    And that’s what’s bloody dodgy

  172. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    frogesque @ 20:28,

    Ah, the “poison pill” option re-surfacing again. Predictably. It’s only too clear who is consuming ever-increasing quantities of that venerable product you mentioned!

  173. Colin Alexander says:

    Liz g

    Thank you for confirming that Scottish Govt ministers rarely even see email complaints from Scottish citizens.

    I have pointed out the abysmal service the Scottish Govt gives complainants on several occasions.

    In my experience, unless your complaint is sent via an MSP you will receive a civil service: Piss off, we don’t want to know response. ( I paraphrase).

    Send it via an MSP and the service is slightly better: your piss off, we don’t want to know response is signed by the Cabinet Secretary’s signature.

    So, that’s part of the reason why, when it comes to Scottish Parliament elections, my response to voting SNP is: piss off, I don’t want to know.

    I continue to support independence but, as Alex Salmond also discovered, when the boot was on the other foot, his and subsequent Scottish Govts are tainted by lack of fair investigation of complaints.

    That applies to ALL public services in Scotland.

    The SPSO Ombudsman, a deliberately crooked monster created by Labour and beloved by subsequent SNP Govts, is as impartial with the Scottish Establishment of public services (including the Scottish Govt) , as the Queen is when it comes to Tory Govts and the British Establishment.

  174. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Colin Alexander @ 22:30,

    So, that’s part of the reason why, when it comes to Scottish Parliament elections, my response to voting SNP is: piss off, I don’t want to know.

    Oh Colin, you are a caution. You really (truly) want an icecream but you insist in cutting off your hand before reaching out for it. =sigh=

    And just “part of” the reason? The other presumably being you actually prefer one of the Nirvana splitterists or the Red/Blue/Orange Tories? (I can never make up my mind which, you dreadful shapeshifter, you!)

  175. Robert Peffers says:

    @AnneMarie D says: 31 August, 2019 at 6:57 pm:

    ” … Sectarianism has always been the classic bogeyman.”

    My old Grand dad had it right, AnneMarie D, (and he died in 1949), and spoke about both the Loyalists and the Catholics and particularly sectarianism of Glasgow Football supporters.

    I had asked him why these people were always fighting each other. His reply was that if they weren’t fighting about football or religion they would have to invent something else to fight over. I do believe he was right.

  176. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert J. Sutherland

    The number one reason I don’t vote SNP for Holyrood is the local SNP MSP. I was let down by him. The guy couldn’t look me in the face when he recognised me at SNP branch meetings as the same person who came to him looking for assistance as a constituent. At least he had the shame to look guilty.

    My opinion of the SNP MP is the opposite. I’ve ALWAYS voted for her. The last time I voted for her, it was because of her personally, not because she’s SNP because the SNP gave me no reason to vote for them in their 2017 GE campaign.

    I don’t want an SNP strong at Westminster, I want ALL Scots MPs OUT OF Westminster.


    Come on SNP, give me a reason to vote for the party. Seek a mandate to dissolve the Union if an election comes before an indyref.

  177. boris says:

    The Unionist Party’s manifestos could have been written on a fag packet since they were almost entirely free of anything meaningful to the electorate in Scotland.

    It comprised a single battle cry attacking the most progressive and universally admired politician in Scotland Nicola Sturgeon. Stating:

    ” Scots are fed up being persecuted by the SNP leader who is solely intent on getting independence at any cost. As a result, Scotland is suffering hugely. The majority of Scottish voters wish to remain in the British union, despite Nicola Sturgeon’s latest demands for a Scottish referendum.”

    This was entered on the internet in the form of a petition requiring a simple yes/no answer.

    The signed petition would be presented to the Westminster government, by the Scottish Home Secretary for debate in the House of Commons, dependent on the number of signatures gained.

  178. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Colin Alexander @ 22:58,

    Sorry about your personal misfortune, but normal (political) service can only resume after the constitutional elephant in the room has been removed. Everything else at the moment is secondary/

    Though you do illustrate en passant the danger of excessive delay: the inevitable accretion of individual discontents with an established government (no matter how good) leading to an eventual drain in support and everything that goes with it.

    In the meantime though on here, you keep on “slip, sliding awaaaaay….”

  179. Liz g says:

    Colin Alexander @ 10.30
    That’s no exactly what I said….
    No minister in ANY Government could read all their correspondence.
    That’s just simple logistics
    That’s why they have staff.
    That staff also makes the minister aware of anything that they need to know in regarding their correspondence,that’s what they do and they are good at it.
    Especially the Scottish Government Staff,that’s why the Scottish Government are so on the ball and up to speed.
    So it is worthwhile writing and, if you mibbi wrote something worthwhile…
    Who knows?? every letter is read…
    Thank You for the opportunity to clarify.

  180. Terry callachan says:

    To Colin Alexander …my opinion is that I set aside personal wants for the benefit of my country ,Scotland.
    It’s the future of every person to come that I want Scottish independence for.
    If I’m still alive when we get independence even better

    All that stuff about your MSP doing you a wrong and not looking you in the eye is in my opinion the wrong way to go surely it’s the SNP you are voting for and Scotland’s freedom you are voting for and not some personal service you hoped to get from an MSP

    Come on look further
    If we all voted only for those things we personally benefit from or those MPs or MSPs that can do something to help us in our personal lives we would never collectively vote for the most important thing Scottish independence , we would always have our vote deflected by some personal grievance

  181. Clootie says:

    Those who have been on Wings for many years know my Ulster roots. My family are Protestant bigots deeply rooted in N/Ireland

    I just want to state that I support the unification of Ireland every bit as much as I support Scottish Independence.

    The march in support of Irish unification was legal, fully authorised and peaceful. Their march was attacked by violent bigots. The same people who attacked those marchers rights are the same people who attack our claim to self determination in Scotland.

    The media are spinning the “riot” for all they are worth and the word Republican is being over used in an attempt to create division. If they attack this group then an Independence March will be their next target.

    Last year I obtained my Irish passport. I am proud of it and I only hope the citizens of my current home have a fraction of the guts the Irish have demonstrated in regard to dealing with London London.

  182. Colin Alexander says:

    Robert J. Sutherland and Liz G

    I agree my personal gripes with the SNP / SG are secondary right now.

    Much of the talk is Brexit. Let’s no forget the other side of the Brexit coin.

    The European Union Withdrawal Act 2018 kicks in if the UK leaves the EU (with or without a deal).

    The EU devolution power grab to Westminster:

    Ah, but Ministers of the Crown have to seek consent from Holyrood about legislation.

    But they don’t have to obtain consent.

    Basically, if Holyrood says:

    Aye = consent
    No = consent
    No answer = consent

    That’s called UK democracy. What Scotland says matters not one iota. At least that’s not changed.
    At least the pretence of equal partners is over.

  183. Dan says:

    Colin Alexander says: at 10:58 pm

    Come on SNP, give me a reason to vote for the party.

    It ain’t a perfect world by a long way and unfortunately we really have to compromise to an extent due to the current shitfest of constitutional and political setups we are constrained by.

    Now these may not be the most eloquent responses in the realm of political theory, but I have had surprising success with the following, so here goes:

    “Always vote for the least shit option which is most likely to actually get close to delivering what you want”.

    Or put another way:

    “All politicians are arseholes (on a spectrum), so vote at every opportunity for the least arseholey ones, and vote at every opportunity for a system of governance that can lead to fewer arseholes”.

    NB: Everyone is welcome to critique these suggestions should they feel they can be improved upon.

  184. Ian Brotherhood says:

    This is from a comment which appeared on the WOS Twitter feed about an hour ago. It’s by @StevieCosmic who, I’m quite sure, used to comment here years ago…

    ‘The SNP can’t stop Bojo, it can’t stop Brexit and it can’t save England from itself. It is utterly powerless in all these respects. The electorate gave them a mandate for one thing only: deliver independence.’

    The reason I’m posting this is because it seems to nail the cause of the most recent friction here.

  185. Colin Alexander says:


    To be fair to the SNP:

    I’ve said for a while the devolution SNP Scottish Govt is not good but, the current alternatives eg a Labour or Tory devolution Scot Govt would be much worse alternative.

    In the case of a Lab / LibDem administration, they’ve already proved to be much worse than the SNP.

  186. Colin Alexander says:

    We now have a UK Govt that is prepared to shut down UK parliament to prevent English / British democracy.

    If they would do that to head office, what would they be prepared to do to the Holyrood devolved / colonial branch office at Holyrood?

    Part of me wishes they would just shut Holyrood down. Maybe only then would our Holyrood politicians be forced to accept all they are doing is administering the Union for Westminster. A colonial administration.

    If they (the SNP) make Scotland better, it promotes the idea the Union / colonialism is good for Scotland.

    If Scotland gets worse, we are told it’s the SNP’s fault for poor administration (not because Scotland is treated as a colony by successive UK Govts, who are ruining all of the UK but, especially don’t give a fig for parts of the UK, such as their North British Scotland colony).

  187. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 23:40,

    Personally I think that dog has got a little way more to run, Ian, what with a court appearance or two, street protests down south and all, but it’s rapidly running out of puff.

    I’d give it another circuit or two of the track, but no more. Then it needs to be humanely dispatched. And very publicly.

  188. Robert Peffers says:

    @Liz g says:31 August, 2019 at 8:13 pm:

    … I know that is your position on the subject Robert as you pointed out you’ve said so often enough.
    But that’s not the whole picture.

    Well you got that right, it isn’t the whole picture as you go on to demonstrate that you still don’t get it.

    ” … Firstly.. There’s others who disagree,and that’s their right.”

    Of course it is their right, Liz g but what isn’t their right is to attempt to prevent me from that very same right.

    ” … Secondly…There’s this site,which is very clear is not an SNP site,but rather a political discussion site. Not everyone here is an SNP member!”

    Indeed so, Liz g, but the point once again is that you, and many others, obviously miss the real point.

    It isn’t about whether they are SNP supporters, SMP members or not SNP supporters. It isn’t even whether they like the SNP or loath them.

    The point is this blog is supposedly a supporter of Scottish independence and running down the FM/SG/SNP is running down the one and only, (currently existing), Scottish political party with a hope in hell of gaining independence for Scotland.

    ” … There is, as I’m sure you know and appreciate a social aspect to this site, and that by definition means that people who post also air their doubts, fears, worries and their need to vent.”

    Indeed so but why the hell do so when they are damaging the only political party that has a hope of gaining what, (most of them), claim they fervently want?

    If they have a beef with Nicola Sturgeon look on the Holyrood Parliament website, or on the SNP’s website, get her contact details a tell her what you don’t like, mind you she would probably like it better if you told her what you do like. If you have a beef with John Swinney, take it up with him and so on. Thing is they sure as hell will get the message which they probably won’t by dripping here on Wings.

    Here is a very typical situation. The problem most women have, and rightly so, about self declared gender issues. Now I have excellent reading comprehension but I can also read between the lines.

    What I understand about this issue, (and I mean from a politics viewpoint), is that like every other political party, there are factions within the SNP. No political party has 100% agreement across the board, and a faction within the party are pushing the gender issue HARD, but I’d bet it isn’t the whole upper hierarchy by any means. Factions tend to be fairly small but loud.

    If women, and probably most men, want to stop that dead in it’s tracks get onto the FM and other top brass in the party directly and you do not need to be a member to do so at a branch meeting.

    Email, snail mail, telephone or whatever. The faction within the party making all the noise out of all proportion to their numbers will get told to back of or get out. The party wants voters for, not voters against.

    Now ask yourself this has the totally, out of all proportion, furore this matter has already caused right across social media caused it to be stopped? To date it has been put on the back burner by the party but it has far from gone away. What effect has all the bad feeling generated on social media actually had? Aye! That’s right – it generated more bad feeling.

    No one has suggested, least of all me, that people should not disagree with the SNP, nor have I said that everyone should join the party. I say if you are in the party take it up at your branch meeting and if not in the party, don’t vent on social media – tell the party directly as is your right, (and that is to both the SG and the SNP as a party.

    So there it is, you say we are not all in the SNP – I say that is not the point – we are, (supposedly). all independence supporters so why harm the main party for independence?

    The opponent’s of Independence may very well try to pick up on a chink of dissent…. but just as credible, the SNP may also be using us a weather vain of response to their actions and projections of their intentions?

    Come on – What the hell do you think they have branches for? Of course they may have a read of Wings but after reading a typical day’s comments full of claims tat Nicola is too comfortable in Bute House, that the SNP are doing nothing, that Nicola is wrong and should do this that or the other – is there any incentive to ever return to Wings for another dose of SNP BAAAADDDD?

    ” It could just be that the SNP will get a dam sight more from our musings than the British state ever could!”

    Aye! But they can get all the abuse they need right here on Wings. I say it again – if you want the SNP to be certai8n to get your message – good or bad, email, telephone, email, snail mail or even post to the SNP webpages – who knows you just might learn a thing or two there while you are at it.

    ” … They (SNP) need to know how we really feel and should be able to depend on us Wingers to say it like it is.”

    Then tell them so – directly – and not on an open forum they may not read because of the abuse the get here.

    ” … Thirdly…. My late daughter in law worked for the Scottish Government.Her job was to answer the emails and other correspondence on behalf of the Justice Secretary (Humsa).
    He never actually saw any of them. So I cannot imagine that the arrangements are any different for the First Minister.


    ” … While I have only a bit of an idea what went on last night,and I’m not even going to look because I don’t want to rake it all back up….”

    Then perhaps it might have been a good idea to do so before making this comment.

    ” … I know that, you know that you can be crotchety and you’ve claimed the right to be at your age”

    It has nothing to do with my age and I’ve spoken my mind all my life. BTW: I rarely use bad language at others. I never threaten anyone and I answer points with points and explain the points. If folks can’t stand that then perhaps an open forum for debate is not for them.

    ” … ( nae argument there) but with rights come responsibility and that means sometimes remembering that ye are not always answering a squadie from the 77th but mibbi a Lady Winger with her own concerns venting to her Wings family.”

    Now I’ve already made the point that you say you did not read all that went on – may I, (respectively), suggest you do so before drawing conclusions?

    The person was in the wrong. I drew him up for it. He returned whining that he didn’t understand. I explained in more detail and the usual cabal jumped in with both feet and some, like yourself, had not read the exchanges.

    Laughably the whole sorry lot of them couldn’t even be honest enough, or brave enough, to even mention the name of the person they were ganging up on. You at least had the courage to address me in person – I will confess I then goaded them as the bunch of snowflakes they are. Am I sorry? Why ever should I be? I really wasn’t in the wrong. Go read the exchanges and see what I pulled him up for. See what his reactions were and then see those who jumped in and without knowing the facts waded in.

  189. Tam the Bam. says:


    Had to suffer the pain of being on the wrong end of a 5-0 ‘pumping’ fae Inverness Caley Thistle on Friday evening.Hard to take…but that’s ‘fitba.

    I am ..nonetheless so grateful that I wont be caught up in the shitfest which is about to explode in approx. 11 hours time.

  190. Liz g says:

    Robert Peffers @ 12.24
    The rights and wrongs of it all wasn’t my point!
    So to read up on it could only lead to a discussion I’ve nae interest in having.
    My point was that…
    If you feel that you can judge the motive and tone of a comment…. Then fair enough…
    But the “others” judged yours right back and for that you can’t in all honesty complain ( well go on the defensive and fire back really )
    As for them or me jumping in…. Well is that no exactly what you did to the original poster too?
    ( FYI The poster you were answering is not a him it’s a her which I mention only in the interests of accuracy)
    While, you don’t use bad language,by which I assume ye mean “so called” profanity,you do use insult and name calling just like the rest of us, and you goad people too!
    All part of the rough and tumble of posting here,but if you can’t see that this line you take of not criticising Nicola or the SNP is no in keeping with the ethos of this particular site then this will keep happening, and that in and of itself could do more harm than good too.
    I never said you should be sorry,that’s something only you could know or share.
    What I do ask is that is that you read what I said objectively and consider it…

  191. Grouse Beater says:

    Ha! A theatrical joke. Love it. Duly retweeted. Thanks, Chris.

    Your essential weekend reading:

    ‘Shutting down democracy’:
    ‘Rocketman’ – a review

  192. Cubby says:


    I did read all of the posts from last nights thread. It was very unseemly to see all these posters ganging up on Robert Peffers. Particularly Silver Darlings disgraceful comments.

    As Peffers says he did not use foul language and was far from abusive. Some people have obviously got it in for him and others cannot take any criticism without throwing a wobbly.

    A very poor show. An image of a pack of wolves came to mind.

  193. Liz g says:

    Robert Peffers
    AND….. Mr Peffers….. The VERY next time I see you referencing yer Age in relation to not putting up with things….. I will be reminding ye of this conversation… Ha.. Watchin ye now. 🙂

  194. Cubby says:


    I have asked on Wings many times for those who like to criticise the SNP and the Scotgov on Wings to explain to silly old me how criticising them constantly helps the cause of independence. Not a dicky bird has been forthcoming.

    On the other hand if a person was constantly criticising the Britnats does that make that person more or less likely to be a Britnat.

  195. Liz g says:

    Cubby @ 1.07
    I’m no ganging up on Robert,Cubby,I consider him a friend.
    And I said what I said as a friend..
    We’ve had a difference of opinions many times before and we both speak our minds…. He knows that ( I hope )
    And the last thing I want to do is start it all back up again.

  196. Liz g says:

    Cubby @ 1.17
    Well …. As I said to Robert,this is a talking shop and potentially a bell weather for how the grassroots are feeling.
    If the SNP/Scottish Government can’t find out how we’re really feeling here…. Then where?
    That’s how it will help.
    And it’s just my opinion but, that’s of greater use to the SNP than anything that the British state could glean here.
    Mainly because there’s always a rebuttal or a different take offered.
    That’s the benefit I see!

  197. Cubby says:


    Never thought you were ganging up on Peffers and didn’t mean to give that impression at all. I thought it was all an over the top reaction by a number of posters. Peffers then called them snowflakes and based on the modern meaning of the word it seemed pretty fair comment to me.

    Thanks for your explanation but I’m not convinced. Attacking the organisation that you hope will deliver independence just doesn’t do it for me. Particularly people like Colin Alexander who does nothing but attack the SNP/ Scotgov. Why do the Britnats dirty work for them? It is possible to give an opinion without attacking the SNP/Scotgov. You

  198. Dr Jim says:

    In the Independence cause we tend to think of the SNP as ours but they’re not, they’re everybody’s whether you vote for them or don’t vote for them, love them or hate them

    That’s the problem with trying to be a fair government to everybody, you can’t neglect the ones who hate you or they’ll just hate you more and that doesn’t get you votes or new voters

    It’s a bit like being an entertainer, you’ve got to at least appear to be nice to everybody even if you feel like tearing the flesh from their bones or they don’t turn up for the next gig

    It seems it’s only big governments of big countries who don’t give a toss about anybody because they don’t need to, they control the media output on themselves

    Look at the stuff that happens in England every day and the media never seem to call for the head of the government, they blame a council or the head of a department or the police or doctors, yet in Scotland everything that happens the media find a way to make the public believe that somehow Nicola Sturgeon sat in her office and made it happen deliberately as part of her evil plan to annoy people

    Her *threats* of Independence, Jacob Reese Mogg getting away with talking about her anger issues, on the telly, every opposition MSP or MP continually banging on attempting to give the impression that Nicola Sturgeon only has one thing on her mind 24 hours of the day *Independence* as if she’s some kind of a nutter

    What nobody ever mentions is the fact that when Scotland gets its Independence if it really was going to be as bad as they say and doom would befall us all why in the hell would Nicola Sturgeon want to be immediately voted out of office and hated for all time if she thought for one second it was going to fail she’d be signing her own political D warrent so what would be in it for her, it’d be like the Queen going on the telly and saying F..k the lot of you I’m off home to Germany, I mean they wouldn’t want her to continue as Queen anymore would they

  199. Liz g says:

    Cubby @ 1.46
    Aw ok Cubby thanks for sayin 🙂

    I do take yer point about Colin Alexander and others ( many of them ) but people here usually get their measure pretty quickly and they get away with nothing…

    I was more talking about people who … well basically… have an opinion!
    We need the time and space to work it through and unpack what could/should be going on

    For me (and you needn’t agree,of course you neednt) it’s very unhelpful to have an honest Indy supporter lumped in with people like Colin and his ilk for questioning the leadership of the direction of the movement.
    We’re never going to be rid of the disrupters,but it insults everyone’s intelligence to think that we should all be on the same page on everything.
    If ye think something’s wrong ye should be able to say so…
    Yes …. on an open forum,especially one with the knowledge contained in this one!
    That’s what helps ye decide if you should be contacting the Government over it,or if there’s something that ye didn’t know.
    It also helps in getting others to decide if it’s important enough tae join us in yer endeavours!

    That, I think,is worth more to the independence movement than a demonstration of such loyalty that everything has to be private for the sake of image.
    I cannot personally argue to bring my Government within slapping distance if I only ever demonstrate that I’d never give them that slap!

  200. Liz g says:

    Dr Jim @ 1.59
    Yes they will go after Nicola at every turn,which is why I can see the argument for not criticising here,but only up to a point.
    I think one of the lines of attack will come from Ruth the Mooths replacement being totally against the GRA.
    We need to do some work to make it clear that the whole point of Independence was and is that no matter what any leader thought…. If people pay attention and object no leader can just go ahead here…. And that’s the difference between Holyrood and Westminster…. There’s nae new GRA in Scotland but there IS a R*** Clause….

  201. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Liz g,

    I’m just dipping in occasionally while getting on with other things, but I just want to say I admire your tolerance and patience with your two respondents. You make a particularly important point about the need to discriminate between two very different kinds of contributor, a discrimination in fact that most of us in here seem to be able to make without the slightest difficulty.

    I’m somewhat reminded of the worst period of the French Terror. The revolutionaries were very strict believers in the Rationality of Man (if not necessarily Woman =grin=), which led them into the erroneous notion that there could only be one Right Way about any policy that every rationally-thinking person would automatically understand and support, and anyone who took a different view was therefore by definition a schemer and ("Tractor" - Ed) to the cause. But political viewpoints persisted, as they will, since attitudes vary, which inevitably led to gory rounds of mass executions of the losing factions. Until everybody got royally fed up (so to speak) and went back to having a monarchy, at least for a while.

    As for members of the SNP in particular being obliged to haud their wheesht in public and stick rigidly to the party line, that’s for the birds. (See the letters pages of The National for plentiful evidence of that!) More seriously, there are still people alive for whom that particular notion can still send cold shivers up their spines.

  202. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 2.45
    Why thank you sir 🙂
    I’m just feeling particularly reasonable tonight… lol…
    And I’m banking some of it so that some kind Winger will say something when I am out of order 🙂
    As has been known to happen… no honestly… I know you are thinking that could never happen!!
    ( you are aren’t you ) but just occasionally… we’ll ye know??? 🙂

  203. Dr Jim says:

    @Liz 2:31am

    I mentioned politics being similar to the entertainment business because that’s what earned me my living, and I found that these two arenas of work are the most criticised jobs on the planet by people who can’t do either of those jobs

    People used to say to me all the time the wonderful phrase *can you take constructive criticism* and when I was young I’d bite my lip and be polite and answer in the affirmative while smiling
    Once I reached my fifties I began to answer truthfully by saying *Oh are you a musician?* and when they replied no I immediately replied with *how can you criticise something you don’t understand bugger off out of my face and don’t annoy me*

    People knowing what they like and understanding why or how they like it are different things and I find politics much the same, I think I know what I like and then the next minute a good professional politician knowing their job reminds you of something you didn’t think of because they are immersed in all the aspects of it that I didn’t see or appreciate enough to understand

    Now that I’m 70 I reckon I’d be even worse and that’s why I’m retired, can’t stand people criticising what they don’t understand and I guess it must be the same way for politicians, because they hear and see every opinion, point of view good bad indifferent stupid or just plain bananas, and they even get threatened for it, so did I on occasion

    I could never be a politician even if I was on the right side, far too stressful if you’re one of the good ones because you work in an arena that’s full of the bad and bone idle lazy ones that give the few gooduns the bad rep

    I understand the retired politicians popping up every now and then as well because like me they think they’d like to go back out and gig but at our age nobody wants us to do that even if we were good at it

    Politics like entertainment, both rotten businesses that you hate retiring from

    So that’s my tired late night rambling done and I ask forgiveness and thank you for your forebearance if you took the time to read my mumblings

  204. twathater says:

    liz G @ 2.14am I hate to say it but again I most certainly agree with you , I can honestly say that your diplomatic skills are exemplary and would be of great benefit to the forthcoming citizens hub and forum and I would respectfully request that you consider adding your name to the applicants

    As a Scottish voter and avid supporter of independence for Scotland I will continue to voice my opinions on OUR governments progress or not on this site unless the site owner and moderator determines otherwise

  205. Liz g says:

    Dr Jim @ 3.15
    Sleep well…. and for the morning….
    Ye weren’t rambling and I was genuinely interested to read your take on things.
    The only thing I would say is, an entertainer I can take or leave, but a politician can affect me and mine so I’d say… I don’t need to understand them only the effects they are likely to have on me, to have the right and it has to be said the duty to critique them?

    Twathater @ 3.19
    Thank You Twathater it was good of you to say….
    Is that the Citizen Assembly you’re talking about?
    Or something different?

  206. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Cubby @1.17

    I suppose everyone has their own reasons.

    But there is a limit to what extent and for how long, one can bite ones tongue in the name of faux “unity”.

    When I joined the SNP Willie Wolf was the chairman and everything seemed at “least to me” to be open and democratic, toryish types, communists, republicans, monarchists and apolitical members could argue the toss about anything and everything but would always hold their personal views to be subordinate to “the good of the movement.

    When Gordon Wilson was in charge, I began to notice that he would scrape the sky with his delegates card a millisecond after a vote was called for, so there could be no doubt as to which way you were supposed to vote if you didn’t want to see an “SNP SPLIT” headline in the following day’s newspapers.

    When Alex Salmond took the helm, any important decision due to be debated at national council or conference, was preceded by press releases, converting what should have been a proposal, seeking the approval of the delegates, into a choice between supine compliance or pressing the self-destruct button.

    By the time Nicola came along Alex Neil was just about the only member of the” “hierarchy” who had not been hand-picked by the boss and the party had adopted a barrow-load of policies to place it precisely on the spot on the political spectrum the Great Leader wished it to occupy and the process continues…

    There were of course many casualties along the way, one of the conflicts was when the powers that be, decided to cancel the party’s commitment to holding a referendum on EU membership AFTER achieving independence … bearing that in mind, the leaderships current stance re Brexit might account for an upsurge in dissension from people who clearly do support Scottish independence.

    I will continue to give praise were it is due but feel it my duty to fire the occasional shot across their bows when they sail into waters they have no justification for being in.

  207. Col.Blimp IV says:


    Did I forget to put the “e” at the end of Wolf[e]?

    Was that AS nickname a Unionist divining, red flagable word?

    or have I transgressed in some other way?

  208. twathater says:

    Liz G yes the citizens assembly , they are requesting applications , and WE need you to help hold their feet to the fire , go fur it

  209. Col.Blimp IV says:

    I suppose everyone has their own reasons.

    But there is a limit to what extent and for how long, one can bite ones tongue in the name of faux “unity”.

    When I joined the SNP Willie Wolf was the chairman and everything seemed at “least to me” to be open and democratic, toryish types, communists, republicans, monarchists and apolitical members could argue the toss about anything and everything but would always hold their personal views to be subordinate to “the good of the movement.

    When Gordon Wilson was in charge, I began to notice that he would scrape the sky with his delegates card a millisecond after a vote was called for, so there could be no doubt as to which way you were supposed to vote if you didn’t want to see an “SNP SPLIT” headline in the following day’s newspapers.

    When Alex Salmond took the helm, any important decision due to be debated at national council or conference, was preceded by press releases, converting what should have been a proposal, seeking the approval of the delegates, into a choice between supine compliance or pressing the self-destruct button.

    By the time Nicola came along Alex Neil was just about the only member of the” “hierarchy” who had not been hand-picked by the boss and the party had adopted a barrow-load of policies to place it precisely on the spot on the political spectrum the [redacted redacted] wished it to occupy and the process continues…

    There were of course many casualties along the way, one of the conflicts was when the powers that be, decided to cancel the party’s commitment to holding a referendum on EU membership AFTER achieving independence … bearing that in mind, the leaderships current stance re Brexit might account for an upsurge in dissension from people who clearly do support Scottish independence.

    I will continue to give praise were it is due but feel it my duty to fire the occasional shot across their bows when they sail into waters they have no justification for being in.

  210. Col.Blimp IV says:

    puzzling to say the least

  211. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 3.53
    Thank You
    I think I might….I had understood that the selection was just like Jury Duty ..
    I didn’t know that you had to apply!! 🙂

  212. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 3.19
    What is this——- OUR—— Government shit???
    Ha— now we find disagreement— 🙂
    This is MY Government…
    And not because I’m Elizabeth..
    Because I’m Sovereign
    As are You
    So if she ( Auld lizzie Windsor ) can say MY Governent..
    Twathater…. so can you xxx

  213. ahundredthidiot says:

    Ian Brotherhood @11:30

    I agree with that sentiment, however, NS and the SNP need to play Brexit carefully, this is our HOLD moment, without a doubt.

    The UK hasn’t ‘left’ the EU yet……and you cant put out a fire that hasn’t started, so, time for a bit of self discipline and patience, which is definitely testing.

    I imagine that once Brexit is an actual reality, a date for IndyRef2 will be announced (for that is their mandate) and we can all focus on that – with ‘Brexit arguments’ finally behind us the road ahead will become clearer.

  214. Essexexile says:

    So, Boris Johnson has told the Tory rebels to side with him or the clueless, utterly unelectable Jeremy Corbyn. That’s now the only likely hurdle before a no deal exit.
    I remember David Cameron, at one of his last PMQs saying to Corbyn “It may be in my party’s interest for you to remain leader of the opposition but it’s certainly not in this country’s interest. For goodness sake man, go!”
    We’ll, that’s where we are now as Michel Barnier has quite correctly told Johnson the backstop stays which may lead to the abyss of no deal and Corbyn is the alternative (as the Rev said, the country would rather vote for Jimmy Savile).
    My guess is that big business on both sides will step in as we near the Halloween deadline and insist on a further delay on the basis that the political landscape may change.
    As I’ve said previously, ‘leaving but not having actually left yet’ is the UKs relationship with the EU for the foreseeable future. Which of course means that Scotland’s relationship with the rUK continue in the same vein.

  215. ahundredthidiot says:


    I am inclined to disagree about big business setting a delay agenda – English Brexiteers wont have it and would likely put the anti brexit marches to shame in terms of turn-out and impact – and probably not without violence, which is why I think big business would not succeed in that type of endeavour (if they did try, which I am not convinced they will).

  216. Robert Louis says:

    Ian Brotherhood’s comment at 1140pm,

    Is worth repeating, because I think it is most important. His citing of a twitter comment, really does go to the heart of things.

    The fact is, the SNP have tried, really, really tried, over and over again, to seek common ground in England over brexit. At every single turn, they have been utterly ignored, over and over again. At present, they are looking to work cross-party, with folk like Labour to stop no-deal brexit, with NO GUARANTEE, or acknowledgement from Labour that they would respect desire for Scottish independence. So what is the SNP going to get from all this?? NOTHING. Has Corbyn said ‘help us stop brexit, and qwe’ll back your push for independence? No, I thinketh not. Indeed he has said the EXACT opposite.

    Whilst they may wish to continue to add their votes to others to help prevent a no-deal brexit, out of some kind of loyalty to those in England who sneer at them on an almost daily basis, that should no longer be their focus. Brexit is a very English thing. It is English nationalism writ large. It is time for OUR SNP Scottish Government and MP’s, to put Scotland first.

    It is really rather simp[le, idependence, independence, independence, and really before the brexit sh*tfest happens. England, and especially Westminster across all parties, cares nothing for Scotland.

    It is high time, the SNP stopped fretting about those who seek to destroy us as a country, and sovereign nation.

    Here below for reference, is the relevant comment from Ian Brotherhood at 1140pm last night;

    QUOTE :

    This is from a comment which appeared on the WOS Twitter feed about an hour ago. It’s by @StevieCosmic who, I’m quite sure, used to comment here years ago…

    ‘The SNP can’t stop Bojo, it can’t stop Brexit and it can’t save England from itself. It is utterly powerless in all these respects. The electorate gave them a mandate for one thing only: deliver independence.’

    The reason I’m posting this is because it seems to nail the cause of the most recent friction here.

  217. Colin Alexander says:

    Liz G

    Criticising the SNP or Scot Govt does not make someone a Unionist / fake indy supporter.

    People like Commissar Cubby and you, seem to think it’s their job to criticise others in the YES movement who aren’t following the true SNP way.

    What gives you the right to brand anyone who is ever critical of the SNP or Scot Govt as Unionists?

    Why don’t youse say it to Stu and the many others who have commented, who’ve also been critical of the SNP too?

    How many polls has there ever been that showed the SNP on 50% +1 of the popular vote? So, if indy is all about being a devoted supporter of the SNP / SNP Scot Govt, we are making things harder for ourselves.

    When will people get it into their heids:



  218. Essexexile says:

    Good morning ahundredthidiot.
    Fair point, but I’m not so sure. Mass public demonstrations are usually against a particular policy or set of individuals with a clear point. The economic minutiae surrounding Brexit are (let’s be honest) beyond most people, leave or remain and hardly a rallying point for violent protest.
    I believe PM Johnson’s ‘game’ of Trump style brinkmanship has gone as far as it can. He’s made no deal Brexit a very real possibility and the EU hasn’t blinked. 60 odd days for business leaders to apply pressure for another extension which will seem more palatable as we’ve already had one.
    I think we’re unlikely to see hordes of sweaty, red faced pensioners trashing BMW dealerships but the world’s rapidly going mad so who knows!

  219. John Thomson says:

    Corbyn will not support indy, if he did and we won it would destroy English labour hard unionists down south would never vote labour again and new parties would form not least a labour form of the Brexit party.

  220. Effijy says:

    On Netflix the movie The Great Hack is a must watch.

    It blows the whistle on Cambridge Analytica and
    How the money that buys the data and manipulated it
    Can put Trump in the Whitehouse and the UK out of Europe.

    Key players in the company are now Remorseful about their
    Activities and tell their own stories.

    Brittany Kaiser is one photographed with the likes of Trump, Alexander Nik,
    Aaron Banks, Nigel Farage, etc.

    She lived the jet set life and included shooting with Conservatives in the UK.
    A picture shows her at a shooting weekend with the faces of 2 men blurred out.
    One has the frame of an Alister Jack, a Scottish Millionaire Tory MP renowned
    For inviting senior Tories and their Associates to his very substantial Estate for
    Shooting weekends?

    Next photo used and she is at a diner with men in kilts and she wears a tartan sash.

    Terrifying proof that we are now living in 1984 and they rich in power can buy and
    Control everything.

    They have all your likes and dislikes and your friends and colleagues info via
    Facebook etc. All your Card transaction what you bought for how much when,
    Credit Score, mobile calls to who when from where.

    What you looked at on line, who do you exchange e-mails with and who they are.
    Are your family pictures all stored in a cloud somewhere hackable?

    Our souls have been sold to a devil for the convenience of these devices.

  221. galamcennalath says:

    Seen several predictions that there will be a general election on Oct 17th.

    If Johnson finds events ‘too hot’ this coming week, that may be his next step.

    We’ll know soon enough.

  222. ahundredthidiot says:

    Effijy @9:09

    No one an hack your vote though……social media is just another form of media and there is a lot more freedom ‘out there’ than there is on telly.

    Now, I am not for any sort of information gathering and all for privacy conditions, but to suggest that it put Trump in the White House is nonsense.

    Netflix also did a docufilm thingy on the white helmets in Syria portraying them as some kind of local heroes – it couldn’t be further from the truth and borderline war propaganda.

    So, take anything you see on telly, social media and even Netflix, with a pinch of salt. (Postal votes/deceased people aside!) – No one can hack you in the voting booth.

  223. Terry callachan says:

    To Effijy your post today 9.09am

    Yes they have all your info but hey the way I look at it is that I want them to know all about me I want them to know how much I hate england controlling Scotland and ripping us off.
    I want them to know that I am supporting Scottish independence my whole life until it happens

    They see my determination
    They see my anger
    That’s okay , they can’t take that away from me

  224. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexander at 8.39

    “Criticising the SNP or Scot Govt does not make someone a Unionist / fake indy supporter.”

    But only attacking the SNP and the Scottish Government does.

    As soon as “Colin Alexander” is sensibly challenged he reverts back to his pretendy “SNP support” position as he thinks we are all daft.

    Really moving post from Clootie at 11.32pm and absolutely spot on.

  225. Breeks says:

    ahundredthidiot says:
    1 September, 2019 at 7:32 am
    Ian Brotherhood @11:30

    I agree with that sentiment, however, NS and the SNP need to play Brexit carefully, this is our HOLD moment, without a doubt.

    The UK hasn’t ‘left’ the EU yet……and you cant put out a fire that hasn’t started, so, time for a bit of self discipline and patience, which is definitely testing…

    Ask ANY fireman, and they’ll tell you fire prevention is the best remedy for any fire. It would be unforgivable to sell out Scotland and capitulate to our unconstitutional Brexit, and it is infuriating that so many Independence supporters are so casually ambivalent about the actual consequences of Brexit and what it will mean for Scotland’s economy and the standard of living we have.

    I made the comment yesterday that within hours of Boris Johnson looking to prorogue Parliament and overstep Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty, he was taken to Court in three countries and vilified by the Establishment for committing a Constitutional outrage in ‘merely’ denying the House of Commons four days of debate. Yet in Scotland, in 2016 when the Constitutional outrage was against Scotland’s popular sovereignty, a sovereign and democratic Remain mandate, and where Brexit threatens to inflict incalculable damage on the Scottish economy, there has been virtually nothing made of the unconstitutional impropriety of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty being subjugated. Where is our outrage? Where are our Constitutional Test cases? Where is Scotland’s Backstop? Why are we sleepwalking towards Brexit dreaming of better times in 2020???

    Brexit at the end of October is NOT about Brexit. Brexit at the end of October is the fulcrum. It marks the tipping point where Scotland changes from being a Sovereign Nation having a democratic constitutional mandate to prevent it’s subjugation and affirm it’s sovereign ascendency, and the alternative state, where Scotland is Brexited against it’s will, thus proving the sovereign will of Westminster to Brexit Scotland is SUPERIOR to the sovereign will of Scotland to defend it’s Remain mandate. We are living through a constitutional test case whether we realise it or not, yet we are without representation.

    If we permit Scotland to be Brexited, we concede that Westminster’s sovereign will, even without any democratic ratification or mandate in Scotland, is still superior to Scotland’s constitutionally sovereign democratic majority. “They” rule us.

    The SNP “looks” on course to duck the Brexit change of state about to be suffered upon Scotland, presumably hoping the outrage and deprivations of life after Brexit will swell their Parliamentary strength in both Holyrood and Westminster, and they hope, a future Referendum, despite that referendum henceforth having to prove constitutional credentials, credentials which we don’t even seem willing to defend.

    People who articulate criticism and condemnation of SNP strategy have EVERY reason to be outspoken in their concerns, because Scotland has dropped the ball regarding our Constitutional Sovereignty. Instead of having a Constitutional Backstop to rival Northern Ireland, the mere existence of Scotland as a nation barely features in ANY formal Brexit negotiation or provisional agreement. We are mute, invisible, impotent, passengers in a bus about to be driven over a cliff, and we are talking down our own clock.

    I don’t give a shit about Labour, Corbyn, Davidson, Davidson’s baby, Swinson’s accent, a By-Election result, a Section 30,, a poll showing a modest swing…. I shut my ears to it all. It is all mindless, bourgeois “after dinner” chatter while the blazing meteor of our Constitutional subjugation enters the atmosphere above our heads.

    Friends, whether we like each other or not, whether we agree and respect each other or not, Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty MUST be brought into play before Brexit happens, and we are critically short of time. There shouldn’t even be discussion of IndyRef2 before November. It is a distraction from much more critical necessities.

    Ian Blackford has said that Scotland will NOT be dragged out of Europe against it’s will. I don’t know if Mr Blackford is a maverick who speaks for himself, or speaks from his position as SNP leader in Westminster, his Party, or whether he alludes to Top Secret plans that a well advanced but strategically hidden from view, but I DO know Mr Blackford is the only one saying the only thing that matters.

    Scotland will not be dragged out of Europe against it’s will.

    If we think we suffer from Unionists inventing false realities about YES2014 being a once in a generation thing, be in no doubt whatsoever that Brexit, and our sovereign rejection of Brexit, and the chaotic debacle unfolding at Westminster, represents a truly unprecedented coming together of such favourable circumstances for Scottish Independence that we MUST consider Brexit as a chance in a million and we would utter, utter, fools to let the opportunity slip from our grasp.

    59 days. For god’s Sake, defend our constitutional sovereignty.

  226. Effijy says:

    Terry, I see where you are coming from but making our own
    Positive case isn’t a factor in all this.

    They find the don’t knows and the slightly over the line people and
    Tailor make propaganda that turns them the paymasters way.

    In Trinidad they were hired by the Asian party.
    Analytica persuaded 40% of the Caribbean youth not to vote.
    This turned the expected result by 5% and the Asians are in power.

    A UK committee investigating this declared that UK election laws are
    No longer fit for purpose.
    The world can no longer hold what we knew as a Fair and a True Democratic Election!

    Whoever buys the most data and puts out the most fake news wind. Full Stop.
    Do Boris, Gideon, Reese Migg and Alister Jack and all the OxBrige Elute
    Have deeper pockets than the SNP and Wings supporters?

    What that reality movie and be shocked to the core.

  227. Marcia says:

    We are now in the ‘period of events, dear boy, events’. A bit like January/February 1974 which ended with the demise of the Heath Government. Political things can move quickly so don’t rule out anything in or out at the moment.

    Sadly, 80 years ago today, Poland was invaded by Nazi Germany and that event led to a series of events leading to the ultimate demise of Nazi Germany. The Germans thought they were invincible but they weren’t. Same goes for the Etonian political elite at Westminster.

  228. @Effijy,

    Not seen `The Great Hack` but does it mention the Obama re-election campaign that used facebook data to target voters,called by Obama `Project Narwhal`,

    “People don’t trust campaigns. They don’t even trust media organizations,” Teddy Goff, the Obama campaign’s digital director, said at the time. “Who do they trust? Their friends.”

    According to a Time magazine account just after Obama won re-election, “the team blitzed the supporters who had signed up for the app with requests to share specific online content with specific friends simply by clicking a button.”

    The effort was called a “game-changer” in the 2012 election, and the Obama campaign boasted that it was “the most groundbreaking piece of technology developed for the campaign.”

    Cambridge Analytica were not the first to use/abuse facebook data.

  229. Cubby says:

    Colin Alexander@8.39am

    Sorry Mr Alexander but as usual you are wrong. I have never branded you a unionist. That term should be reserved for people who actually are for a PROPER political union. You are a BRITNAT. That is what I have always called you. A British Nationalist who wants to keep Scotland in a repressive U.K. Dictatorship.

    You attack the SNP non stop. That is not the same as someone making the occasional point. Your defence is just rubbish and you know it.

    I think the above paragraph should be clear enough even for you.

    And you know what you can do with your commissar cubby comment.

  230. Proud Cybernat says:

    @Colin Alexander

    Any self-respecting indy supporter being relentlessly called out here as a fake or a troll would have said “F@7k you lot. I’m out of here.” They simply wouldn’t take being called out as a troll so often if they were, in fact, a true indy supporter.

    But not you. No, no, All water off a duck’s back to you. And THAT is precisely what marks you out as exactly what many here have called you out as.

    You’re no’ very good at this a.p. shit.

  231. One_Scot says:

    For what it is worth I called that knob out months ago. Best just ignore him.

  232. kapelmeister says:

    With Ruth Harrison gone from the front line, that leaves Willie Rennie Mackintosh as the one Holyrood leader left from the Class of 2011.

    Of course I don’t mean class in the adjectival sense.

    But go on Willie, step down and give Alex Cruel-Hamilton a go as branch mismanager.

  233. Sinky says:

    A reminder to The Sunday Herald that Brian Soutar’s last political donation was to the Lib Dems

  234. ahundredthidiot says:

    Breeks @11:00

    Good point(s), well made. I just don’t see anything substantive enough happening to prevent Scotland being dragged out of the EU against Her will. Maybe Ian Blackford and the SNP have something (legal?) up their sleeve – but will it be enough? – I highly doubt it would stand up to the response/measures this Westminster Regime is prepared to take to get it’s way, given recent events.

    Only people power will win the day. Peacefully (for Scotland is not worth a single drop of the red stuff) and without haste after 31st October. I agree that we shouldn’t be talking about Indyref2 before November, but on the 1st day of that month we most definitely should!

    I have noticed a few Freudian slips from SNP MSPs about the ‘coming referendum’, which gives me comfort.

    The SNP must exhaust every opportunity to help Scotland for this current challenge that is Brexit, but there will come a point where there is no more to salvage and Indyref2 it is.

  235. Cubby says:


    Thanks for the reply. Interesting comments but still not convinced that firing shots across the bow of the Scotgov/SNP helps independence when we are in close reach of the goal and the Britnats are in self destruct. It all seems self indulgent to me. A lot of nit picking instead of keeping focussed on the main prize. Plenty of time for shots across the bow etc etc after independence. This is not normal political circumstances where you should feel free to criticise your government.

    I clearly do not have your experience as an SNP member. I hold no affection for any particular party but I know that SNP are the only game in town to achieve independence. I have no Ex Labour supporting hang ups nor SNP hang ups. I do understand that this may colour some people’s opinion but in my opinion this should be secondary.

    I am for Scottish independence, always have been and always will until it is achieved. Still not heard a convincing case for slagging off the Scotgov at this point in the history of Scotland. Do we want to be the generation that frees Scotland from this despicable UK or do we want to air our gripes and pass on the current subjugation of Scotland on to another generation.

  236. Capella says:

    Andrew Tickell’s article in the Sunday National explains the progrogation and the Court of Session hearing on Tuesday.

  237. mike cassidy says:

    Something to cheer you up on a Sunday.

    Spot The Ball Competition 2019

  238. schrodingers cat says:

    Breeks says:
    Ask ANY fireman, and they’ll tell you fire prevention is the best remedy for any fire.


    high on rhetoric but low on actual detail…….. if we are dragged out of the eu, which looks likely, what can the sg/snp or ns actually do to stop it?

    others on wos can quote verbatim the treaty of the union or the constitutional convention but we all know wm can and will ignore or legislate such legal opposition out of existence if they want.

    the likelyhood of a ge before we leave is increasing, this appears to be the best option for us at the moment. but even if we elect all 59 mps as snp mps, wm can and probally will still ignore our calls for indyref2.

    then what do we do?

  239. Robert Peffers says:

    I’m going to say something here and probably will get hounded for doing so. None the less it is the truth.

    I’m fed up with those on here who make claims of, “If the SNP don’t do it now it will be too late and we won’t get another chance”. This is total rubbish.

    As is the idea that we must go for independence before we are dragged out of the EU by the UK and so on.

    The truth is that it isn’t Westminster, the Tories, Labour or LibDems, the English, Northern Irish political parties or anyone else except Scottish voters who vote against independence.

    Furthermore it won’t be too late if Boris, or any other Westminster political figure does this that or the other thing. Scottish Independence is entirely a matter for the legally sovereign people of Scotland and when a majority of them actually vote to become independent, in an independence referendum or in a Westminster or Scottish parliamentary election that has the SNP standing on that specific point then, and only then will the SNP, for no one else is going to do so, will have the right to declare that the people of Scotland have decided, (not the SNP but the people have decided), the United Kingdom is over.

    No one but the legally sovereign people of Scotland have the right to tell the English crown, a.k.a. Westminster parliament that broke the Treaty of union the day it came into being by assuming that, “The Crown”, of England had sovereignty over the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

    Thus only the legally sovereign people of Scotland have legal right to take back their sovereignty.

    Dr Jim points out upthread that point in a different way. It really is just as simple as that.

    In 1706/7 two equally sovereign kingdoms went into union and the deal was supposed to be a union of equals as it is laid out in the Treaty of Union. The Kingdom of England, from the very start, assumed it was sovereign and the people of Scotland went along with them.

    That means the only way for the Kingdom of Scotland to end the union is when those who hold legal sovereignty over Scotland to end it. So the question is who holds legal sovereignty over Scotland – The people of Scotland or the monarch/crown of England?

    It isn’t up to Nicola Sturgeon or Boris the clown or even the EU or UN – only the people of Scotland can end the union and, get this, it doesn’t depend on getting out before any particular occurrence except a majority of the people of Scotland demanding it, (note the people of Scotland and not the Scots born wherever they may be.

    Let’s here it from all those on Wings who keep blaming the SNP instead of the unionist people of Scotland but I’ll not be here arguing about it I’ve had enough of that thankless task.

  240. mike cassidy says:

    “Farewell to Ruth Davidson and the ‘Tory revival’. But what’s next for Scotland?”

  241. schrodingers cat says:

    Cubby says:
    the Britnats are in self destruct.


    are they? latest polls in england have

    tories 35%
    bxp 14%
    libs 18%
    lab 24%

    even if the bxp support doesnt collapse and revert to boris
    a huge tory majority in wm is almost certain in the coming ge.

    then what??

  242. schrodingers cat says:

    buckle up folks, no one said this would be an easy ride

    but going forward, people power, grassroots actions are what will bring about indyref2. not nicola sturgeon

    it will be our gilets bleus who will make it happen.

    you should all be now discussing how

  243. schrodingers cat says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    others on wos can quote verbatim the treaty of the union or the constitutional convention but we all know wm can and will ignore or legislate such legal opposition out of existence if they want.


    as if on cue, RP does exactly that. but he is of course correct, independence can only happen when a majority of scots vote for it, either in a referendum of a ge or a he. that has not happened yet.

    we are facing a probable ge in the next few weeks, i have it on good authority that the snp will change their manifesto and put indy first and foremost

    we would all be better employed getting out and campaigning for the snp since this is the first hurdle we are about to face. stus idea for a wos party at the next he is all very well, but that is a future battle, not the one we face today.

  244. Cubby says:


    Omission re Reply to Col. Blimp IV @3.43am

  245. Capella says:

    @ SC – If we are to rely on a GE vote to secure independence then would’nt we need 50% of the vote. How possible is that?

  246. Arthur Thomson says:

    @ Robert Peffers 12.35pm

    The definitive statement. Exactly on the head of the nail.

    Without prejudice to the above, it is an incredible achievement that the people of Scotland are gradually seeing their way through generations of British propaganda and violence and moving inexorably towards throwing off the shackles that have bound them.

    I am frustrated by the slow pace of movement but I absolutely accept that, for many people, the fear of losing the few crumbs that they have renders them confused and vulnerable and unable to come out for their independence. Fortunately, the internet and the imperfect but obviously successful efforts of the Scottish Government are giving real heart to increasing numbers of ordinary Scots – wherever their roots were – to grasp the nettle.

    Scotland will take back it’s independence. When it happens it will be like the taking down of the Berlin wall. It will be at a time and in a way that nobody anticipated.

  247. Marcia says:


    Shouldn’t that be a rule for Westminster also? They cannot govern if they have less than 50% of the vote. It was SNP policy before Holyrood that a majority of Westminster seats was required to secure Independence. Nothing stopping the SNP for having an automatic referendum if they win a majority of seats.

  248. Cubby says:

    Schrodingers Cat@12.37pm

    “The Britnats are in self destruct. Are they”

    Sorry but I do not understand the point you are making. I am aware of the poll figures. They are all Britnat parties. Happy to try and respond if I understand the point you are making.

    “Then what” – well I have always posted that I believe a no deal leaving the EU will happen and be followed by a United Ireland and an independent Scotland

  249. Cubby says:

    Arthur Thomson@1.11pm

    Well said.

  250. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Robert Peffers –

    Have just caught up with your tortuous self-justification.

    Your behaviour on Friday night was rank.

    I am not a member of any ‘cabal’ on here. (I’ll leave it to others to decide whether or not I’m a ‘snowflake’.)

    Some of us took issue with the way you treated another commenter, but you’ve contrived, yet again, to twist the situation into an attack on yourself.

    If others are impressed with your doubling-down on entirely baseless accusations, fair enough, but I’m not buying it.

  251. Dr Jim says:

    There is no such thing as *constructive* critcism, nowhere in the dictionary is there a defintion of the word criticism that supports that modern re-definition

    However there is the newer approach of the deliberate misunderstanding of words to create space for the imposition of a critic’s deconstruction of the original argument, then using reductio ad absurdum to ridicule that original point is a tactic well used to support the argument that criticism is a good thing

    You can complain about a result of a political policy or decision or indeed anything in any walk of life but criticising a process of arriving at a decision is a difficult and complicated area unless there is full understanding of the process and knowledge of that process involved

    Would a geologist criticise a physicist, well probably not because he/she would know they were being ridiculous and outmatched on every level
    You can’t criticise a magician about a trick when you don’t know how it was done, you can only complain about the presentation of the result (like or don’t like)

    We use the word criticism and it’s derivations on a daily basis to allow us to interact in discussion but often it’s more misused to give the original user an opportunity to express an alternative opinion or just plain *(have a row)*
    and that’s the place we must be mindful of not ending up

  252. Cubby says:

    Robert J Sutherland@2.45am

    A very patronising post.

    “….. a discrimination that most of us in here seem to be able to make without the slightest difficulty.”

    A challenge for you Mr Sutherland. If it is so easy to identify as you say in this post, and you being such a smart Alec, go list the posters who are the phoney independence supporters. Us less smart people perhaps need your superior guidance.

    After you have published your list perhaps you can then share your incredibly smart criteria for identifying them.

  253. Dr Jim says:

    *We’re winning* and yes we are, but we’re only winning the reasonable argument not the fight
    When it comes down to it power usually *wins* however wrong that may be

    You can make the most cogent and reasoned argument for a premise using all the proofs to support that argument but if at the end of the argument the people in possession of the power hit you over the head with a big club it was all for naught

    The new reconstituted Boris Johnson England parliament are now openly holding a big club and are prepared to weild it

  254. starlaw says:

    The rules in a Westminster General Election are simple. First past the post win no iff’s no buts.
    If SNP stand in a General Election for independence and win most seats SNP has won. There are no other rules.

  255. Iain mhor says:

    Elections can only really succeed in Spring or Autumn, because so many of the electorate are on holiday through the summer. So, if one wanted an Indyref soon, it would have to be this Autumn or Spring/Autumn 2020/2021.
    Given current politics, if one was isolated, one may have had a plan to initiate an Indyref in Autumn this year. But there is no isolation and the potential for a GE is not something suddenly sprung – that potential was spoken of last year.

    So would one run an Indyref on marginal polling and liable to clash with a GE, or hold off and see how the cards fell? For there can be little negative in that. It either leads to a government even more hardened against Scotland and increasing Indy support, or a government more prone to concessions, allowing breathing space to campaign an Indyref.

    Should an Indyref actually be initiated and narrowly won this Autumn; a subsequent GE falling hard on its heels would inevitable be fought as a “confirmatory ballot”, with every chance a positive Indy result was, if not overturned, then plunged into constitutional and democratic chaos.
    The play with high odds on a GE ocurring, would certainly be “do not lead with an Indyref”

    The next window of opportunity then is Spring 2020. Yes, Scotland is by then possibly, out of the EU.
    The great Mandate dilemma : Is Indyref the only way to stop Scotland being removed from the EU against its wishes? If so then the extremely risky scenarios (above) come into play; or does one risk being removed from the EU in order to achieve a successful Indyref at a later date? One would consider that support could only grow.
    Surely those wishing to remain in the EU would not vote against rejoining via an Independent Scotland, surely those votes would not be lost just because Scotland exited with the rUK. Unless it could be argued a post EU Scotland in Union becomes favourable to those voters for some reason.

    If Indyref is not the only tactic to remaining within the EU, even if only temporarily, then it becomes preferable to hold off on an Indyref for reasons cited. There have been many scenarios mooted (Legal, Claims of Right, Scottish backstops etc) again any delay allows for a sustained campaign to grow Independence polling.

    Does the above give an indication of a preferable timing for an Indyref next year, Spring or Autumn 2020 then?. That is the breathing space to campaign, it allows the dissafected by Brexit fallout to swell support – it is the better play.
    It will of course bring howls from Pro-EU “Use the Mandates” support, but surely Independence is the endgame, not membership of the EU.
    Even that is split with calls for EEA/EFTA and No EU/Total Indy. Who argues they would not vote Indy when offered later though? That’s a difficult argument to make.

    So that is two possible dates, Spring/Summer 2020. But as I posted earlier, what should one make of Mike Russell’s tweet about “Looking forward to 2021”?
    Well anything you care to. It seems he supposes the SNP will be contesting Scottish Elections in 2021 (Spring) Is that before or after an Indyref has been called? – answers on a postcard.
    Though the fact he envisions fighting against LibDems offers perhaps a clue; for we must ask “Independent Scottish LibDems or English(rUK) ones. Surely one would be looking to revel in the ongoing Anglo-International Independence negotiations, following a successful Indyref the previous year, not gleefully looking to winning a paltry seat in Orkney or Shetland to give minority Libdems a black eye.

    Whether the oft posited scenario of instant dissolution of the SNP post-independence plays here is another moot point. Would there even be an SNP to contest ‘2021’ post successful Indyref? I’ve never been clear what was intended by that. Dissolve immediately following a successful Indyref, or some undefined time after Indy was all signed sealed and delivered (years later?)

    Anyway, my point being; Indyref is unlikely this year and though possible next year, depends on circumstances and/or polling. With Scotland already out of the EU (or perhaps still nominally within via some legal or diplomatic chicanery) yet it apears there is some evidence to suggest that an Indyref won’t be seen until post 2021 Scottish Elections. The scenarios are obvious enough that the Rev Stu can legitimately suggest a Wings party to contest List seats in it, to howls from all sides.

    I’m in no tearing hurry, I’ve got the badge and t-shirt, I’ve converted my “one other person”.I could now sit down, forget about all the shite and await “circumstances” – to await the required majority for Indy to appear of its own volition now.
    I’m not working myself into apoplexy for potentially another year or two. I’ll do my wee bit of course, but there comes a time you stop wiping arses, sit on your rocking chair and await the eager to rush up and tell you about ‘the great new group they’ve found!’
    Yeah, I saw them live back in the day… Guid in’t they?

  256. Marie Clark says:

    O/T re tartanpigsy 10,000 flags crowdfunder. I have, on several occasions tried to donate, but the gofundme sight does not seem to be working properly. For a while it was the expiry date for your card that was not working properly, now it seems to be the security number of your card that ain’t working. So try as I might, I cannot make a donation. Are others finding this too, perhaps that explains why the donations are so slow. It’s all very frustrating.

    Good man yourself Dr Jim @ 1.26 I concur.

  257. jfngw says:

    Just waiting for the next Leader of the Tories in Scotland to be revealed as the real brains behind Ruth Davidson, I can think of a few journalists in Scotland that could go with this line. one at the Herald in particular, but probably any of them at the Scotsman (BBC would just run with the story as if it is actual fact, quoting the paper as a trusted source, ‘sources reveal’).

  258. Breeks says:

    Robert Peffers, you’re only presenting half the argument.

    You’re correct, Scotland can choose to terminate the Union, but you present that as the only way to terminate the Union, and exclude the equally legitimate option of holding the other signatory in the Treaty to be in breach of the Treaty and terminating the Union by their infidelity rather than our volition.

    We don’t have to assert sovereignty by popular majority returned in a referendum. We need only challenge “their” material breach of the Treaty, (and their colonial subjugation of our sovereign voice will suffice), and seek to have it recognised that the Treaty is breached. We require no electoral majority or mandate to demand legal principle is upheld, but we do need a test case to be put before a recognised authority on Constitutional Law to arbitrate that the Treaty of Union has indeed been breached.

    If you don’t agree, then where is the electoral mandate for Joanna Cherry, Gina Millar or John Major to challenge Boris Johnson’s “unconstitutional” prorogation of Parliament in Court? There isn’t one, because it isn’t necessary. It is a matter of. Law, not popular opinion or electoral mandate.

  259. Capella says:

    @ Marcia – yes, of course. But then we are back to a second referendum being the decider and Westminster refusing a S30.

  260. robertknight says:

    SNP needs to turn any autumn Westminster GE into a referendum on Independence. Do a deal with the Scottish Greens to ‘sit this one out’ and throw everything into a campaign on a single issue ticket of Independence – where a majority of votes cast AND a majority of MPs returned is a mandate for Indy, and you can shove your Section 30!

    To be followed PDQ by a referendum on an Independent Scotland applying for EU membership.

    What’s not to like?

  261. Dr Jim says:

    Some of the things people don’t know about how smart Scotland is

    An American proudly proclaiming that they were smart enough to have a written constitution so their laws can’t be fiddled with as Westminster is doing to Scotland and the UK

    What he didn’t know was that the American declaration of Independence (part of their constitution) was in fact derived from The Declaration of Arbroath in April 1320 and recognised in the American senate in November 1997 as such

    We were big enough and smart enough then, I reckon we’ve not changed much

  262. Abulhaq says:

    @Robertknight 2:10 pm
    Indeed, what’s not to like, however it might require surgical intervention to move the current SNP hierarchy in that direction, fixated as it by the personality of Johnson, Brexit and the rules and conventions of the Westminster parliament.
    The barefaced chutzpah of this régime has plainly dragged many out of their comfort zone.
    They’d better get used to it.

  263. Liz g says:

    Colin Alexander @ 8.39am
    Em… I spent some considerable time last night sayin that any Winger should be able to comment and criticise the SNP/Scottish Government on here.
    As other’s have said,when it’s all that ye do what do you expect the consensus about you to be?
    There’s no point in being all butt hurt about it now, there really isn’t…. because quite frankly….. I struggle tae care!

  264. Proud Cybernat says:

    I think SNP should stand at snap GE on an Independence manifesto whereby a simple majority of SNP MPs mandates them to negotiate Indy with WM. In this particular scenario, however, there should be a confirmatory referendum held by ScotGov as to whether we accept the deal negotiated between ScotGov and UKGov. That then ensures that Indy is, ultimately, decided upon by a majority of the people of Scotland so BritNats can’t complain. But a win by SNP on Indy manifesto at a snap GE gets the ball rolling, gets us negotiating our independence with WM.


  265. schrodingers cat says:

    Cubby says:
    1 September, 2019 at 1:16 pm
    Schrodingers Cat@12.37pm

    “The Britnats are in self destruct. Are they”

    Sorry but I do not understand the point you are making. I am aware of the poll figures. They are all Britnat parties. Happy to try and respond if I understand the point you are making.

    the britnats are not in disarray, the tories are about to win a huge majority in westminster.


    “Then what” – well I have always posted that I believe a no deal leaving the EU will happen and be followed by a United Ireland and an independent Scotland


    how will this follow? by what mechanism will we bring about an indy scotland? the snp will win the ge in scotland, but i doubt they will get more than 45% of the vote here, which as RP correctly points out, isnt a majority of the people.

    i also believe that a bojo PM with a large majority in WM will refuse a s30………..

    then what do we do? what can and will the sg/snp or ns do?

  266. Terry callachan says:

    To Effijy…

    Thanks I will watch that film

  267. Capella says:

    @ SC – the SNP and the Scottish Greens might well get over 50% of the vote but they would both have to make clear a vote for them was a vote for Independence. That would give an electoral mandate.

    @ Proud Cybernat – negotiating with Westminster is a nightmare – ask Michel Barnier. Assert Independence first if a 50% vote happens then demand immediate return of revenues and assets.
    Limit negotiating to thngs that can’t be immediately sorted e.g. submarines at Faslane.

  268. Terry callachan says:

    To Clootie.. your post 1134pm Sat..

    I’m with you I want reunified Ireland too as well as Scottish independence .

    I think it’s wrong for people from Scotland to go to Ireland and march through the streets in flue bands in my opinion it’s for the people living in Ireland to do that people in Scotland should not interfere.

    I also think it’s wrong for people to be marching in Scotland in support of Irish reunification again I think it’s for people in Ireland to do that in their own country and we in Scotland should not interfere.

    I don’t want people in Ireland marching through their streets in Ireland in support of Scottish independence we will do our own marching in our own country.

    I don’t want people who live in Ireland coming to Scotland to march in our streets for or against Scottish independence we can do our own.

    Really I believe people living in Scotland should stick to our own gripes and people living in Ireland should stick to their gripes neither should be meddling in the others troubles.

  269. schrodingers cat says:

    Capella says:
    1 September, 2019 at 3:24 pm
    @ SC – the SNP and the Scottish Greens might well get over 50% of the vote


    not according to recent polls, i think we will do well to get 45-46% combined snp and green votes…………..

    then what do we do?

  270. Dan says:


    I’m sure you know this but will highlight that GE voter franchise doesn’t include 16 & 17 year olds or EU Nationals.

    Managed to get another couple registered to vote this morning and 4 folk asking for YES cars stickers which were duly given to them.

  271. Terry callachan says:

    I agree that Westminster is difficult to negotiate with but I also see that Nicola Sturgeon wants a negotiated settlement with England for Scottish independence ,negotiated settlements are the most fruitful for both sides

    However we must consider historical facts and it would not be a surprise if England play dirty when Scotland becomes independent they have done it with many other countries,

    One thing I think they might do is try and keep control of parts of Scotland that have a majority of people who vote for one of the Westminster British party,s Labour Tory Lib Dem , in particular I point to Orkney , Shetland, Borders.

    England has fragmented many countries as a parting shot on their departure.

  272. Terry callachan says:

    To schrodibgers cat .

    In a referendum a majority of votes is required

    In an election a majority of seats is required

    That is how Westminster works it’s the way they have always worked

    Scotland can rightfully do the same we do not need a majority of people in an election we need a majority of seats

  273. Lochside says:

    I’m afraid that Friday’s riot in Govan is a presage for the next stage of removing stability from our legitimate struggle for regaining Independence.

    The Irish Republican march, unnecessary as it may have been was legitimate, and follows in the train of dozens of equally unnecessary loyalist OO processions. The difference is that this march was deliberately blocked by organised aggressive loyalists. Permitted to build barriers across its line of march by Police Scotland.

    Who despite being prewarned, there was no attempt to pre-empt the the guaranteed disorder. They came instead prepared for the confrontation with helicopters and riot gear accessories. No attempt made to disperse the loyalist beforehand or arrest ringleaders. All very handy for the upcoming deployment of 300 cops to N.I. or back here.

    Think back to September 19th 2014 in George Sq. hundreds of organised loyalists attacking young Yes voters. An act of civil mass disorder without precedence in the streets of Scotland. Yet only a handful of arrests. No ringleaders arrested for conspiracy. Contrast and compare with the witchhunt for the Hibernian ‘rioters’ in the recent times of the Scottish Cup Final, when over 100 people were prosecuted for basically running about the pitch and damaging a crossbar

    Consider the protected status of a number of resettled dangerous NI loyalists residing in Ayrshire. One of who was protected, at large public expense, from an alleged murder plot by a couple of stooges.Is there any connection with these facts?

    We are witnessing the direct attack by Johnson and his cabal on our democratic rights: Prorogation of Parliament; the rubber stamping collusion of this seizing of power by the laughingly dubbed ‘Queen of Scots’ ( no she ain’t and there has been no ‘Scottish’ monarch since James the V11); the soon to be closing down of Holyrood via special powers; a possible GE which the SNP will win the majority of Scottish seats on an Indy manifesto, and have it refused point blank for two reasons: one of not achieving a majority of votes cast , and the other, the 2014 REF being a ‘once in a generation’ assertion of Scotland’s people submission to the UK.

    There will be no S30 and there will be only a pathetic UDI attempt left, which the Unionists and fearties will boycott. A rerun of Catalonia’s experience is what is planned by the cabal and the template has been in planning all a long with Cummings and the billionaire backers of Brexit behind it all.

  274. Scozzie says:

    Robert Peffers @ 12.35pm
    We’re all agreed that it’s the Scottish sovereign people who will decide out independence, but it’s the mechanism that enables that to which gives some people concern over strategy.

    I’m glad you cite an election (WM or HR) as a potential route to deliver independence. Yet it seems that the SNP cannot see past a referendum. To me, with a likely GE coming soon, we should not look a gift horse in the mouth and make it a manifesto pledge that a majority seats triggers independence negotiations. And even if that means a confirmatory referendum vote after negotiations are concluded – that’s fair enough.

    I feel we need to play the hand we’re given in this game of poker and putting all our eggs in a referendum basket is allowing WM to dictate tactics.

    No matter what we do will be a gamble, but a gamble we must take. All routes carry risks.

    But I fear ‘wait and see’ tactics need to end. We need to now take decisive action: whether triggering a dissolution of treaty through the courts; manifesto pledge of independence negotiations via a GE; referendum (in my opinion preferably this year). As I think a 2020 referendum is way too late given the risks of this nutjob Tory government (which let’s face it will most certainly win a GE when called). And when won, with even a slim majority, will be so hardline that it’s certain that power will be even more centralised.

    The SNP seem to be boxed into a corner simply waiting for WM to do the ‘democratic’ thing and recognise our mandate and agree a S30. The universe will implode before this happens. If they truly have ‘secret plans’, it’s really now time to put them in play as we’re 60 days from Brexit.

  275. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 13:35,

    Sorry, I was just stating the blindingly obvious, as I think most folk ere will realise well enough for themselves. But maybe in that posting I struck a nerve there somewhere. Puir wee you. All you manage to do on here these days is whine. You’re earning quite a reputation for it. Nothing actually about independence, despite all the earnest assurances, just a miserable drizzle of wild hints and allegations against unnamed people who are for the vast part on the same side, they just happen to differ from your (unmentioned) self-important opinion. Accusations and grumblings which you can never actually substantiate, because they’re utterly baseless.

    Which makes me wonder whether you’re just incredibly petty and small-minded, or up to deeper mischief.

    (See, we can all play that game.)

  276. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    schrodingers cat at 3.33

    SNP support does not equate to independence support as I’m sure you know

  277. Cubby says:

    Robert J Sutherland @4.15pm


    You are the only smart Alec playing a game. You are just full of insults aren’t you. Just another hypocrite. Complain about others posting insults then more than happy to go full throttle yourself. The HYPOCRITE sums you up.

    Unsble to substantiate your comments that it is so so easy to identify phoney independence supporters so you resort to insults. Pathetic for a person who thinks they are so smart. Where’s your list Mr Sutherland. Go on give us the benefit of your super intellect. Where is your criteria for identifying them – must be easy for a smart Alec like you.

    You were the one who made derogatory comments about me in that post so you can bin your crap about me starting arguments. If you don’t want feedback from me Mr Sutherland don’t post derogatory comments about me. That should be quite simple for a man of your superior intellect to follow. Or are you not as smart as you think you are. Or do you just like starting arguments. You have been trying to drive Peffers off Wings for a long time. Won’t work with me.

  278. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Lochside at 3.55

    The Sun,The Sunday Mail and the Sunday Herald are all reporting this as two sets of yobs attacking each other. I haven’t checked other “newspapers” but I would imagine this will be the media general legend.
    It was in actual fact a legitimte march attacked by yobs.

    Sadly the main thrust of the post as it proceeds in designed to demoralise independence support. All this we wont get this and we won’t get that is merely unionist promoted assumptions designed to create division.

    If anybody can provide me with a proven recorded statement from a Prime Minister, a leader of the opposition or indeed the Electoral Commission stating unequivically that we won’t be allowed a Section 30 I’d be glad to see it.

    Just to be clear remarks made by political figures who have no locus or power in this issue or made before they achieved an office which gives them a legitimate power in it don’t count.

  279. twathater says:

    @ Liz G 6.48am , nae sae fast wi the hammers Elizabeth my post was in relation to comments in respect to OUR Scottish government , I do not consider that OTHER lot of twats to be our government

    I totally agreed that the (our) Scottish government should be made aware when policies they propose eg the GRA are opposed by a vast amount of the electorate , if not through sites like this and twatter where people are engaged the message would be diluted and possibly ignored, not everyone has the time or inclination to email their representatives , public discourse has highlighted the opposition to this proposal (thanks Stu and others ) which has resulted in the further consultation which will have to be fair and representative and will also have to be seen as such
    Anyway I ask again that you apply for the citizens assembly as WE need people like you who are NOT afraid to speak their minds ( nippy sweeties ?? ) kidding ,we don’t want it full of the byres road coffee set , and like you I want my govt within slapping distance

  280. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 13:35,

    If you are so allergic to substantive debate (rather than repetetive whinery) I honestly don’t know why you bother showing up here at all. You could so very easily sit in your own wee space, not debate with yourself at all, and be perfectly content. Meanwhile the rest of us can get on with a constructive discussion of mutual interest and also be perfectly happy. A win-win all round, I would say.

  281. Capella says:

    @ SC @ Dan – I had overlooked the lack of 16 – 17 yr olds and EU nationals in a GE.
    On the other hand, I was recalling that in the East Kilbride by-election on 29th August, the SNP and Greens did poll 51% of the vote.

    But you are right, it is a long shot. So an unequivocal “a vote for us is a vote for an independent Scotland” should be enough to force Westminster’s hand on pain of falling out with the UNHRC.

  282. Robert Louis says:

    Starlaw at 141pm,

    Exactly. Westminster are based around who wins most seats, NOT on vote share. Those are the rules. I find it tiresome, when folk on here, then try to assert that somehow magically, for independence the rules must be different. If a majority of seats is sufficient to form a government, then surely a majority of seats will suffice for independence.

    Of course the westminster system is nuts, but IF we really want to slavishly follow THEIR rules, then that is EXACTLY what should be done.

    Besides, all my life, it was common knowledge that for Scottish independence to happen, all that was required was a pro independence majority of MP’s from Scotland.

    I really cannot fathom why folk literally jump through hoops to assert that for independence, it should be different compared to forming the actual government of the united kingdom.

    The only people placing obstacles in the way of independence are the SNP, as they constantly come up with new self-made ‘rules, for independence. Meanwhile, the folks at westminster just watch in amazement and bafflement.

    Even, let’s say, somebody raises some kind of objection at such a move, when it happens, it pushes independence right up thje top of the agenda, meaning a section 30 much more likely. I mean seriously, don’t the SNP understand negotiation and political tactics, to get what you want???

  283. Cubby says:

    Robert J Sutherland@5.06pm


    You are pretty good at repetitive insults.

    Debate – all you do is post insults and complain about others posting insults – is that what you call debating Mr Sutherland the hypocrite.

    Your posts are just full of ad hom nonsense.

    In summary you cannot back up your statement that it is so so so easy to identify phoney independence supporters on Wings so you resort to a tirade of personal insults. You may think that is impressive debating skills. I think it is pathetic.

    “Meanwhile the rest of us” – when were you appointed spokesperson for everyone on Wings. Got some ego there Mr Sutherland – haven’t you.

    Your post shows you are not interested in debate but just trying to drive people you don’t like off Wings

    I’ll repeat for you once again, if you have a go at me don’t act surprised if you get feedback that your ego may find challenging.

  284. Dan says:


    Aye, pain in the butt having to always cater for UK gerrymandering the voter franchise.


  285. Lochside says:

    DMH @

    ‘Sadly the main thrust of the post as it proceeds in designed to demoralise independence support. All this we wont get this and we won’t get that is merely unionist promoted assumptions designed to create division”

    Sadly Dave, you are resorting to ‘othering’ anyone. i.e. me that does not swallow your particular delusion that we will get an S30. Gove today refused to acknowledge that any attempts in the WM Parliament to block a No Deal would not necessarily be implemented or accepted.

    Instead of encouraging ‘unionist promoted asumptions designed to create division’,Really?.. my contribution highlighted Unionist tactics aimed at doing exactly that. No Unionist troll, who ‘is not one of us’ would be discussing those actual facts as I laid them out. But don’t let harsh reality stop you from believing in UK Parliamentary democracy or trying to traduce me, a contributor and Independence supporter of many years.

    Johnson’s cabal are preventing England from remaining in the EU at all costs. Why do you believe that they would shirk or give a moment’s thought to closing down Holyrood and or ignoring an SNP GE majority based on a mandate of Independence?

    Do you realise what is at stake for these gangsters? They stopped playing by the rules a long time ago and the only way out is via ECJ or the UN. This is the real gold standard: International recognition of our sovereignty NOW. After Brexit, we won’t have any. If you don’t assert yourself in the right forum i.e. the European and World courts, we will end up being disregarded and our pleas will be ignored and any attempts to have a REF will be ruled illegal.

  286. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 17:28,

    Ho hum.

  287. Phronesis says:

    Imperative that the left hand of the state gets the upper hand before the right hand of the state removes all state protections for its citizens except for the few who have access to the levers of power . This is disaster capitalism embedded into our democratic institutions written by those who are wedded to an economic model of conflict and exploitation. The most appropriate remedy for this mindset is that Scotland asserts its autonomy on multiple levels and sustains its democracy that has parted ways with this WM dictatorship. A dignified and peaceful march towards independence.

    ‘The new orthodoxy is especially misleading about the long-term future of governments that promise to return power to the people but instead erode democratic institutions. These populist dictatorships, in countries such as Hungary, Turkey, and Venezuela, share two important features: first, their rulers came to power by winning free and fair elections with an anti-elitist and anti-pluralist message. Second, these leaders subsequently used those victories to concentrate power in their own hands by weakening the independence of key institutions, such as the judiciary; curtailing the ability of opposition parties to organize; or undermining critical media outlets’

    ‘Freedom from exploitation. Freedom from control and domination. Freedom to find, develop, and realize ourselves. The freedom to live lives which really sear us with meaning, purpose, and fulfillment — instead of being crushed with anxiety, bruised by competitiveness, and suffused with fear’

    ‘He engaged with capitalists and peasants, industrialists and workers, the rich and the poor, the socially privileged and the discriminated, the elite and those at the margins of society, in order to build a movement that shook the political and moral foundations of colonial rule…Gandhi, therefore, sought non-violence, not just as a moral force, but also for it’s strategic and tactical value’

  288. robertknight says:

    >50% of votes cast AND >50% of WM seats won gives NO wiggle room for anyone, anywhere, to say that the result is not a legitimate, legal mandate for Indy – PROVIDED the SNP make it abundantly clear to all that a vote for the SNP is for an Indy Scotland and no other issue present which can be employed by others to cloud the result. (Scottish Greens should take one for the ‘Indy Team’ and sit this one out).

    If people still prefer a full English Brexit and the >50%x2 isn’t achieved then hell mend them – thems Turkeys they just be a voting for Christmas early, AGAIN!

  289. Ealasaid says:

    In-D-Car Gordon Ross 1.9.19 – Sectarianism being imported and encouraged.

  290. Cubby says:

    Robert J Sutherland@6.19pm

    Thanks for that. Now we are making progress. So ho hum is a phoney independence supporter. Good to know. Anyone else or is that your list. Can’t say I’ve read any of ho hums posts. What criteria did you use to make that judgement?

  291. Cubby says:

    S Cat@3.00pm

    You raise two separate points.

    1. There may well be a case to be made that my comments that the Britnats are self destructing is wrong. But I don’t think the possibility that the Tories or any other Britnat party being elected in the near future in a GE is not in my opinion that case. Britnat parties will always be in power in Westminster – nothing new there. They are self destructing because of what they are doing to achieve a no deal departure from the EU. The scales are being removed from a lot of people’s eyes as to the true nature of Westminster. That is my case.

    2. Perhaps I am more of an optimist than other independence supporters. Where there is a will a way will be found. More and more Scots are moving to say yes. Proud Cybernat just above your post provided one possibility. There are other ways. As I do not regard myself as a Nostradamus figure I cannot forecast the future. I am confident however, that if enough people want it, it will happen.

  292. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 19:48,

    You’re still here, still whining, still booooriiiing… =yawn=

  293. Cubby says:

    Robert J Sutherland@8.40pm

    “You still here”

    I thought I made it clear to you but you seem to have a memory problem. I ain’t going anywhere. You don’t get to decide. You may think you speak for everyone on Wings but that’s just your inflated ego getting the better of you.

    Mr Sutherland you are just another poster posting on Wings. Sorry to ruin your delusions of grandeur.

  294. Cactus says:

    Ah mean, to escape this Borissson Brrrexit, all of Scotland needs only to vote Yes one more time. THIS here UK entity has long been seen as a bit of a political Pantomime by the rest of Europe and our international world beyond, it’s just that they’re turning it into their actual Operation!

    The Claim of Right remains the same, Scotland (+1hr daylight savings)

    Lookin’ forward to the September ’19 gigabyte WOS traffic result

  295. Cactus says:

    Aye, did ye’s see the subtle mime oh mine…

    Here’s the other kinda Phantomine:

    58 days to go until X Mass:

    If not sooner already

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