The option that just won’t die
Today’s editorial leader in Scotland on Sunday is really interesting, from a language nerd’s perspective (ie very much on our turf). Entitled “A warning to No campaign”, the column – nominally on the subject of pensions under devolution – purports to criticise said group, noting that “the Better Together campaign, by repeatedly presenting the idea of change as a threat, is doing Scotland no favours.”
But lurking just barely below the surface is an entirely different agenda.
It’s concealed some way down the article:
“In the final year of the referendum campaign, attention will inevitably turn to the anti-independence camp’s offer to the Scottish voters. All the major UK parties are now signed up to the concept of a ‘more powers’ offer to the Scottish people”
Except, of course, that they’re not. The Scottish Tories have extremely tentatively floated the suggestion of the possibility of perhaps, at an unspecified point in the future, considering thinking about asking the UK Conservatives to maybe give Holyrood a raft of extra responsibilities, not powers.
Johann Lamont, meanwhile, on behalf of The Labour Party in Scotland, flew a remarkably similar-looking kite (the Scottish Parliament having no more powers, but being required to administrate the collection of income tax) which was almost instantaneously riddled with bullets and sent crashing to the ground in flames by her own colleagues in the party.
And the Liberal Democrats, as far as we can gather, are still at the preparatory stage of forming a commission to investigate the feasibility of forming a commission to consider the recommendations of their last commission – whose findings openly suggested actually taking powers (chiefly those concerning Council Tax) away from Holyrood, and nothing much else.
(Except agreeing with Labour and the Tories that the Scottish Parliament should have the burden of collecting most taxes, but no more ability to determine how they were spent, with the commission explicitly proposing that control of defence, foreign affairs and welfare should remain with Westminster.)
The paper masks this lie behind what appears to be its most overt backing yet of so-called “devo max”, though it declines to specify precisely what its definition of that catch-all term is. And if one is more generous of spirit than nasty cynical old cybernats like us, it’s possible to believe that the paper’s strongly-worded plea to the No parties is motivated by a genuine conviction that a significantly more powerful Holyrood is vital for the future interests of Scotland.
The alternative interpretation is that SoS simply sees what those of us on the Yes side have seen for some time – that a No vote will not result in more powers for the Scottish Parliament, and very possibly fewer – and fears that the Scottish electorate will in increasing numbers also come to see through the fiction over the next 15 months, and decide to vote for independence as the least-bad option.
Today’s leader column, in that scenario, would merely represent a desperate urging of the Unionist campaign to better conceal its (lack of) true intentions from the public, strengthening the pretence – absolutely crucial to the credibility of the Labour and Lib Dem factions of “Better Together” – that a No vote in the referendum is really a sort of safe, middle-ground, partial Yes, despite all three UK parties having so conspicuously resisted offering that choice on the ballot paper.
It would take better Kremlinologists than us to say for sure which of those two views of the article is the reality. But we know which way we’re leaning.
And it’s no, nay, never, No nay never no more
or
Yes.
It has intrigued me that the Unionist press repeatedly paint Salmond as having been outfoxed by Cameron with the removal of the putative 2nd (Devo-Max) question. However, the stated aim of the SNP has always been independence. As soon as Devo Max was removed as an option it is the unionists who are now coming forward with various Jam Tomorrow options and, according to Prof Tom Devine, Gordon Brown currently has his troops hashing out some super-duper Devo Max bombshell to positively campaign on.
He’s on a hiding to nothing. Whatever he proposes we can show that, by so doggedly campaigning for the second question not to appear on the ballot paper, any Devo Max proposal he, Ruthie or any other unionist comes up with is nothing but an empty promise of Jam Tomorrow.
Quite apart from which, as Milliband is utterly unelectable in England, Brown will not get the chance to enact anything. The most likely outcome of the 2015 UK General Election must now be a swivel-eyed coalition of UKIP & Tories, in which case Willie Rennie’s shot at his own foot yesterday of Westminster voting Holyrood out of existence could come to pass.
Of course, it could simply be that they are such crap journalists, that they actually do believe that all the other parties are offering more powers come a no vote.
I may be missing something here, but as I understand it, any further devolution of substantial powers to Edinburgh can only come about with the agreements of the two parliaments to amend the law of 1707… the Scottish parliament, as reconstituted in 1999, and an attempt at an English parliament, using the UK parliament without Irish and Scottish MPs, or possibly by referenda in the two countries.
The assumption is that the English parliament or people would never accept that Scotland get powers over a wide range of taxation, or over social security and pensions or indeed anything else of substance, because they would almost certainly lose out as a result thereof, given that Scotland currently subsidises the UK.
Was Cameron acting on advice to that effect when he ruled out Devo Max? Or is it simply his practice to avoid offering in referenda the choice that most of the people appear to favour?
The ‘more powers’ tactic will be the big lie towards the end of the campaign. The NO parties don’t need to commit to anything, the media will do it for them.
I think there is no doubt that some within the NO group will be concerned that their essentially negative campaign offers no real alternative, no positive vision for Scotland which meets the undeniable desire for more “powers” for the Scottish parliament.
Devo-max, whatever that means, would have been an ideal option. There was no chance Westminster would allow it anywhere near a ballot paper as it would have been overwhelmingly backed, it would have offered an enticing “soft yes” or “soft no” middle ground which is missing in a debate which is, or at least ought to be, fundamentally polarised.
I think they should be right to worry about the lack of this middle ground option in the debate. However, this plays in to our hands. If YES continue to be the only campaign offering a positive dynamic vision for Scotland I am sure people will be won over by Sep 14. In refusing a referendum without devo-max Cameron took a major gamble, assuming I suppose that most Scots wouldn’t go for, or could be scared away from, the nuclear option. I am happy about this. YES doesn’t need a middle ground….
My thoughts exactly when I read it. They’re trying to imprint the idea that more powers are on offer, if a No Vote. An absolute untruth.
If Brown’s plan is anything like his pro-Union slogan, “Ditch the Tories,not the Union”, it should be a good insight into his Alternative Universe.
We have been ditching Tories for 50years, but because of the Union keep getting Tories.
I am with Juteman on this.
The three unionist parties , plus of course UKIP, must sign up to a caste iron agreement to cede these powers. This means that any leaders and members of Parliament in the future must also do so????
Then maybe there will need to be a referendum in England to change the Treaty of Union, but not N Ireland and Wales?
Finally the wotsit in the woodpile; challenges to the UK Supreme Court by individual member of the public and / or the two Houses of Parliament (Foulkes FFS).
It cannot happen in a month of Sundays.
“All the major UK parties are now signed up to the concept of a ‘more powers’ offer to the Scottish people”
That’s one of the odd things that unionist commentators and the press seem to believe. The other is, as Roddy MacDonald pointed out, the belief that Alex Salmond and the SNP really desperately wanted a devo-something option on the independence referendum ballot paper and that somehow his bluff was called when it was “denied to him”.
If Gordon Brown is trying to put together some form of devo-something to offer as jam tomorrow in the referendum campaign it shows that he’s again trying to be the real unionist campaign in Scotland and it’s probably more an effort to sideline Alistair Darling than a genuine effort to put together a workable devo-something plan.
Coconut for the first to identify this speech extract:
‘It would be very unreasonable to understand the sad legacy of the last forty years as something alien, which some distant relative bequeathed to us. On the contrary. We have to accept this legacy as a sin we committed against ourselves. If we accept it as such we will understand that it is up to us all and up to us alone to do something about it. We cannot blame the previous rulers for everything, not only because it would be untrue, but also because it would blunt the duty that each of us faces today: namely, the obligation to act independently, freely, reasonably and quickly. Let us not be mistaken: the best government in the world, the best parliament and the best president, cannot achieve much on their own. And it would be wrong to expect a general remedy from them alone. Freedom and democracy include participation and therefore responsibility from us all.’
To base an entire campaign on a hint of something that cannot be delivered, when what you are really campaigning for is the status quo, seems a bit disingenuous, to put it mildly.
If the unionist parties want to give Scotland more powers, why not give us them now?
The Media are and will continue to push out the idea that a no vote doesn’t mean no change. One only had to look at the Womens debate on the BBC with Jackie Bird. She threw out the same line to Labours Kainde that voting no means more powers coming to Scotland. Though Kainde just deflected the question. Expect more of the same.
@ ianbrotherhood
Wild stab. MLK?
SWINGS (and roundabouts) OVER NOTLAND
Devo-max should by definition mean fiscal control of ones own GDP within a sterling zone with a British LOLR. The SNP framework (currently) for independence is? The democratic will of the people at least until the next Scottish election post referendum will be either;
A. Vote yes and get an independence with a Devo-max comfort zone that when in place will be hard to convince the electorate of shedding further down the line.
or
B. Vote no, which I personally cannot foresee without a cast iron, signed in blood promise of Devo-max.
or
C. Not vote in substantial enough numbers for Westminster to conclude any change is valid.
Obviously A is best, B is a plausible remedy, but pray not for C.
An interesting conclusion – why does it require a democratic vote to overturn a non democratic treaty that in affect holds as much credence as a certificate of slave ownership in modern society when either of the two complete conclusions will manifest the same end? What I mean to say is would you still have voted for the SNP if their party line was give us a majority and we will automatically overturn the treaty?
Vaklav Havel?
@Doug-
link to cepolina.com
Well done that man.
Havel’s speech was on Jan 1st 1990, after being elected Czech president on Dec 29th.
Not exactly dripping with negativity, eh?
@ ianbrotherhood
I know I don’t get the coconut but I just wanted to thank you for guiding me to that speech … Where are the politicians who can speak to/from the heart in that way today?
The speech was written/said by Václav Havel (Here is some of what the man who had spent much of 1989 in a communist prison said to his countrymen in his first New Year’s Day address as their president:)
Václav Havel and Us
Jan 18, 2012
George Weigel
Václav Havel, who died this past Dec. 18, was one of the great contemporary exponents of freedom lived nobly. His moral mettle proved true in both the world of ideas and the world of affairs; indeed, few men of the past half-century have moved more surely between those two worlds. In that respect, and for his personal courage, Havel reminded me of one of the American Founders—if, that is, one could imagine James Madison hanging out with Frank Zappa.
After his death, Havel’s brilliant literary deconstruction of the moral tawdriness of late bureaucratic communism, the underground essay called “The Power of the Powerless,” was widely and appropriately quoted. Another Havel essay from his days in opposition also bears re-reading: “The Anatomy of a Reticence,” the Czech playwright’s 1985 critique of the willful blindness of western peace activists about the nature of Soviet totalitarianism. Both Havel masterpieces continue to speak to us today, about the dangers of political conformity and the dangers of political utopianism.
As the United States enters a presidential election cycle of momentous consequence, however, it is President Havel’s Jan. 1, 1990, speech that comes to mind. The “Velvet Revolution” that deposed Czechoslovak communism had swept Havel into Hradany Castle three days before. Here is some of what the man who had spent much of 1989 in a communist prison said to his countrymen in his first New Year’s Day address as their president:
“My dear fellow citizens:
“For 40 years you heard from my predecessors on this day different variations on the same theme: how our country was flourishing, how many million tons of steel we produced, how happy we all were, how we trusted our government, and what bright perspectives were unfolding in front of us.
“I assume you did not propose me to this office so that I, too, would lie to you.
“Our country is not flourishing. The enormous creative and spiritual potential of our nations is not being used sensibly. Entire branches of industry are producing goods that are of no interest to anyone, while we are lacking the things we need. A state, which calls itself a workers’ state, humiliates and exploits workers. . . .
“But [the economic mess] is still not the main problem. The worst thing is that we live in a contaminated moral environment. We fell morally ill because we became used to saying something different from what we thought. We learned not to believe in anything, to ignore one another, to care only about ourselves. Concepts such as love, friendship, compassion, humility, or forgiveness lost their depth and dimension, and for many of us they represented only psychological peculiarities, or they resembled gone-astray feelings from ancient times, a little ridiculous in the era of computers and spaceships. . . .
“When I talk about the contaminated moral atmosphere . . . I am talking about all of us. We had all become used to the totalitarian system and accepted it as an unchangeable fact and thus helped perpetuate it. In other words, are all—although naturally to different extents—responsible for the operation of the totalitarian machinery. None of us is just its victim. We are all also its co-creators.
“Why do I say this? It would be very unreasonable to understand the sad legacy of the last 40 years as something alien, which some distant relative bequeathed to us. On the contrary, we have to accept this legacy as a sin we committed against ourselves. If we accept it as such, we will understand that it is up to us all, and up to us alone to do something about it. We cannot blame the previous rulers for everything, not only because it would be untrue, but also because it would blunt the duty that each of us faces today: namely, the obligation to act independently, freely, reasonably and quickly. . . . Freedom and democracy include participation and therefore responsibility from us all.”
Very pertinent to the current situation with regard to the Referendum…
I agree with Roddy’s first post, but the Devo Max option was always a non starter since the Scottish Government, whatever party is incumbent, CANNOT offer anything to do with further devolved powers; it is an impossibility. Devolved powers must be GIVEN, and CANNOT be taken. Do this bunch of BT diddies and their supporters honestly expect us to believe that Alex Salmond was deliberately withholding m ore powers for Scotland???
Isn’t this referendum about whether we want independence or not?
I don’t remember anything being on the table for “extra powers” when the agreement was made. Why are we even having this discussion?
There are no “extra powers”. The Conservatives will swamp our parliament with additional responsibility to saturation point.
Without the power to act on these additional “responsibilities” our parliament will descend into chaos to the point that Westminster can discredit it and put an end to it.
That will bel the end of devolution which I think is what Margaret Curran was alluding to if we’re honest. She knows fine well that Labour have the same game plan. It’s the only way for Westminster to beat Scotland down and retain control of the “cash cow” we have become to them.
So the facts are folks, it’s all or nothing for Scotland on September 18th 2014.
Your voting to save Scotland or hand it lock stock & barrel to Westminster like a bunch of spineless fucking cowards handing their pocket money to the playground bully!
If your daft enough to take the word of a unionist politician then your welcome to wallow in the shit they will punish you with.
As I have said many times before; I will not entertain a single whinge from anyone if Scotland votes no next year. You made your bed now you can go and lie in the pishy mattress that Westminster has given you.
USE IT OR LOSE IT!
Vote No and we will get nothing and to quote Dr Frankenfurter if we will nothing in abundance.
@ Robert Bryce
Oct 2014 – the emergence of the Pro union let’s get back together party?
@ HandandShrimp;
Vote yes, but constitutionally write off the treaty of the parliamentary union as undemocratic AND that constitutionally, Holyrood must never again be suspended.
RE the more powers thing.
Don’t believe for a second the electorate is stupid enough to believe more powers will come.
link to ipsos-mori.com
In general, whose interest do you think [Westminster] MPs put first?
Scotland subset with UK figures too.
1% The country’s (UK 6%)
10% Their constituents (UK 8%)
34% Their party’s (UK 31%)
52% Their own (UK 52%)
Barely one in 10 think Westminster MPs are putting the interests of their constituents and the country first.
Half see them as self interested barstools.
Nobody is listening to Alastiar Darling et al.
In contrast, people know that the SNP is after any new power it can get. Thus if for some strange reason we don’t get a Yes in 2014, you can expect the SNP to be re-elected again, and again, and again… both at Westminster and Holyrood level.
Dave knows it. Ed Knows it. Clegg knows it. Scottish Labour just refuse to believe it even though many deep down inside know it too. They’re screwed. This is last chance saloon for the union and Scottish Labour are own their own.
Simple choice. “All or Nothing!”
New Yes campaign song?
Isn’t this referendum about whether we want independence or not? I don’t remember anything being on the table for “extra powers” when the agreement was made. Why are we even having this discussion?
Well said. In what way does the Edinburgh Agreement empower the Scottish Government?
SQUIRRELS
I love the occasional injections of optimism from SS, but I still think the Yes campaign is asleep at the wheel. Keeping their powder dry? I’d hate to wake up on September 19th and discover that we’d voted No but, hey – look on the bright side – we’ve oodles and oodles of dry powder.
I liked a T-shirt I saw at Venice Beach. Two vultures sitting on a branch watching a few pilgrims crawl past on the sand below. Speech bubble from one vulture: ‘Fuck patience – let’s fly down and kill somebody’.
Vronsky
🙂 Fair point
However, I was encouraged that Salmond said that the Yes campaign had barely begun. If they thought they were giving it full tilt I would be worried but if they are aware it needs to up several gears and intend to do so then I look forward to the results.
To entice international big business to Scotland and avoid the trap that Westminster’s in, is it possible to align individual business’ corporation tax with their employee income tax levels – the more employees above minimum wage (which should be increased) = respectively lower corp tax?
It’s way too early to be campaigning at full throttle. Jeez, we’ve over a year to go.
What’s the point in firing off all your rounds now like BT?
I’ve talked to many folk who are default no but only ‘because they haven’t looked into yet, although they plan to ahead of the referendum as they want to make an informed decision’.
The no is soft as hell. Turning a standard (not rabid) no into a yes is easy as pie. Done it with just three links (McCrone, WoS and a choice from Newsnet, Bella etc depending) for a number of people.
There are negotiations going on behind closed doors between the UK and Scottish Governments (as hinted at various times – anything else would be ludicrous with respect to both the economy, defence and international relations). The immediate aftermath of a Yes is being agreed upon. We won’t hear about this until they have reached agreement. That should be around the time of the white paper if everything is on track.
At that point, the real campaign begins and BT will find all that remains in its armoury is a small pile of slightly out of date tomatoes.
“It’s way too early to be campaigning at full throttle. Jeez, we’ve over a year to go.
What’s the point in firing off all your rounds now like BT?”
This. I said it weeks ago and I’ll say it again – this shiznit won’t be real for most people until we’re at least in the same year the referendum is happening. That’s when it needs to ramp up. Now is for building the armoury, doing the research, laying the groundwork and, perhaps most importantly, making sure people know how much the No camp/media is bullshitting them and can’t be trusted.
To the likes of us, it’s astonishing that people haven’t heard of McCrone or the sea grab. But the fact is there are millions of those people. First, show them that the other lot are lying. Then tell them the truth. Let the facts do the persuading. To that end, the more we let “Better Together” have the mic right now, the more holes we let them shoot in their own feet, the better.
Vronsky,
Patience! Not long to go now. The white paper will be published in September and then the gloves are well and truly off. BT on the canvas, out for the count. It won’t be pretty.
The paper masks this lie behind what appears to be its most overt backing yet of so-called “devo max”, though it declines to specify precisely what its definition of that catch-all term is. And if one is more generous of spirit than nasty cynical old cybernats like us, it’s possible to believe that the paper’s strongly-worded plea to the No parties is motivated by a genuine conviction that a significantly more powerful Holyrood is vital for the future interests of Scotland.
RevStu: Maybe you are going too far with your Machiavellian interpretation of what ‘journalists’ on the SoS write? I doubt if they have the intelligence to think in the manner you suggest.
AS is entirely right. The Norons are firing all their semi plausible stuff too early and are now entering the political twilight zone. They are now routinely insulting Scots by telling Scots daily that they are unable to do what every other nation can do.
The law of diminishing return is evident and we’ve hardly fired a shot. The groundwork is going on and that is where we will win it – not in the columns of the unionist press.
You can take it as a certainty that if the No boys believed they were winning it they wouldn’t have to be shouting that they were winning it. They know they are not and desperation is clicking in.
Your name is Angus Robertson. You are standing in a room. There are no exits.
On the floor to your left is a rock. It is slightly larger than the size of both your fists put together. The rock has the word “despair” written on it in crayon.
On the floor to your right is a phone. A post-it note with the home number of legendary legend Azeem “Legend” Ibrahim is attached. It is written in the most handsome handwriting you have ever seen. No other number will dial out.
You have two options.
A) Pick up the phone and give your contribution to Defence and Security in an Independent Scotland, the latest study by the (Keep Britain In) Scotland Institute.
B) Smash your skull in with the rock.
link to scotlandinstitute.com
Atypical_Scot says:
@ Robert Bryce
Oct 2014 – the emergence of the Pro union let’s get back together party?
I’m comfortable with that. We live in a democracy after all.
Having said that I would imagine many deposits would be lost. 🙂
Prepare for the Unionists to be yelling, ‘Hear ye! Hear ye! Vote ‘No’ and you’ll get all these lovely-jubbly strawberry-flavoured devo-max powers with cream on top. Oh yes you will! Just believe us: you know you want to! Hear ye! Hear ye!’ F’kin’ eejits.
After the Edinburgh Agreement was signed, Severin Carrell in the Guardian was giving it the normal pro-Unionist line at that time that Alex Salmond had been blind-sided by Cameron and co. over the exclusion/inclusion of the Devo-Max option. I kept on asking him to prove it in each article he produced thereafter with no response. Then one day he decided to reply, saying that he had ‘proof’ of his claim thanks to some kind of insider knowledge he had without actually supplying the ‘proof’. I then asked him to supply this ‘proof’ that he had… I’m still waiting!
IGNORE PREVIOUS OPTIONS! I REPEAT: IGNORE PREVIOUS OPTIONS!
CORRECT OPTIONS FOLLOW.
You have two options.
A) Pick up the phone and give your contribution to Defence and Security in an Independent Scotland, the latest study by the (Keep) Scotland (In Britain) Institute.
B) Smash your skull in with the rock.
@G Campbell
I had a glance at that document – deeply sinister. Option (B) looking good, but only because you’ve omitted Option (C): smash their skulls in with a rock. It’s called pre-emptive defence and it’s all the rage just now.
Vronsky says:
23 June, 2013 at 8:12 pm
@G Campbell
In Glasgow we call that ” retaliate first.”
@ Rev;
The electorate in general – 40 years plus of Imperial conditioning, sitting in front of the box for as just as long. Nikosi mentioned UDI, since then I’ve started to wonder why we Scots are being so generous as to give warrant to the damn treaty in the first place.
Yes, it has been obvious since the Edinburgh Agreement last year that the media in Scotland would portray a No vote as a vote for more powers for the Scottish Parliament. This is because they know that the status quo is very unpopular in Scotland. Hence, it comes as no surprise to hear that the likes of Jackie Bird, Kenny Farquarson et al are pushing this line that a No vote is one for more powers.
What is curious about this situation is that they appear not to have considered the consequences of a No vote for themselves? If there is a No vote next year then the glee from the Unionist parties and the MSM will be deafening. When it quickly becomes apparent that the ‘more powers’ line was utter horseshit, with no basis in fact, then they will have completely destroyed their own credibility. The rancour and anger towards them by a sizeable proportion of the electorate would be significant. Their overriding desire to stop Scotland becoming fully self-governing has meant that they appear to be willing to destroy their own credibility in the process. What a foolish and stupid position to put yourself in.
They are the people who have embroidered themselves into the No Union Flag.
Hell mend them.
They are at best naieve and at worst, journalistic whores.
Interesting story at the Times
Beckham called up for 1914 replay
Organisers hope the star will add his firepower to a recreation of the England-Germany match in no man’s land
link to thesundaytimes.co.uk
Over 150,000 Scots were killed in the Great War and the UK government are to celebrate this global massacre with a celebrity football match between England and Germany. I hope there are no Russian linesman involved.
“Interesting story at the Times”
Good catch, alert reader. On it like a bonnet.
There seems to be a heavy air of defeatism on WoS today?
We knew the media would poison the air with shit after the Donside by-election; every victory, perceived victory, or even the merest hint of victory will be, within hours, cloaked and smothered in media assisted unionist propaganda.
I do think the best is yet to come from the Yes campaign, and it`s timing will be perfect. If not, then I`m all for a shit storm mud fight of the lowest order 🙂
It has to be a Yes in 2014, or we are gonna need more than a bigger boat.
@Max-
Can’t help wondering how much more obscene they can get with this stuff.
Beckham will have to look sombre on the day. Can he do that? He’s been automatically smiling at anything resembling a camera lens since he was in primary school.
Mutley79
An interesting synopsis.
This of course is of no concern to the state broadcaster as Westminster’s mouthpiece. It will have served it’s designed purpose. A job well done if you will.
The public will simply be reconditioned to accept the will of Westminster by a bombardment of more Susan Boyle types & Monkeys on skates to entertain and numb them while Westminster continues perpetrating “wealth rape” on them.
Those used as the public face of it know this and will happily play to it with impunity or until the state sees no further use for them.
As said before for the benefit of the undecided. We have a chance to take control back in 2014.
USE IT OR LOSE IT!
How about a “No means no…..” slogan/ poster competition along the line of “No means……… no, Granny won’t be able to keep her flat.”
or “No means……… no, your son/daughter won’t be studying after all”
or “No means……… no jobs for Scotland, all oil money will flow South”
or “No means……… no Glasgow when Faslane leaks”
It’s not a scare campaign when there are real grounds for fear – it is a simple wake-up-to-reality campaign.
@Frazer Allan Whyte-
Like it.
‘No means…no end to Tory rule.’
@Frazer Allan Whyte-
Like it. The mind is racing with possibilities already.
No means—-they’ll shove yer granny aff the bus
No means—-we’ll need new words to the song Ye canny shove yer granny aff the bus
Frazer Allan Whyte says:
How about a “No means no…..” slogan/ poster competition along the line of “No means……… no, Granny won’t be able to keep her flat.”or “No means……… no, your son/daughter won’t be studying after all”or “No means……… no jobs for Scotland, all oil money will flow South”or “No means……… no Glasgow when Faslane leaks”It’s not a scare campaign when there are real grounds for fear – it is a simple wake-up-to-reality campaign.
Like This? 🙂
Frazer Allan White,
Brilliant idea! At the risk of annoying Vronsky further, I think it would be a great campaign to unfurl later on, when the counter factual jamb tomorrow hints really start to get pushed hard by BetterNO and their media helpers.
No means No……..
Really excellent.
@ G. Campbell,
Thanks for the heads-up on on Dr. Ibrahim’s “activation”, lol. I can’t seem to find the full .pdf of the defence and security document on the SCOCIA Institute’s site though.
Poor Angus. Caught between a rock and a hard sell.
@G. Campbell-
link to scotlandinstitute.com
Just copying that in for anyone who missed it earlier – what a juicy line-up of belters!
Can I just be honest and say that the Yes campaign is boring?
@ Rough Bounds;
What about pointed sticks?
ianbrotherhood says:
23 June, 2013 at 10:26 pm
all I’m getting is the foreward, just a list of names?
What about pointed sticks?
did you say that with a welsh accent?
@ John King;
Banana.
It was self defence…,
@john king-
‘all I’m getting is the foreward, just a list of names?’
Aye. That’s all I got too, but it’s more than enough to be going on with – with the chapter headings as ‘Handy Hints’ we could probably have a pretty good stab at writing the thing ourselves..
Des Browne…John Reid…George Robertson…etc.
Wow.
(Surprised not to see Adam Ingram on the list. Maybe he’s had a wee fa’-oot wi’ the lads, eh?)
“Banana.
It was self defence…,”
ha ha ha ha ha ha
cant remember, was that monty python?
@John King
SHUT UP!
Now the raspberry! 🙂
with the chapter headings as ‘Handy Hints’ we could probably have a pretty good stab at writing the thing ourselves.. ha ha ha ha
such as keep yer gun clean, nivvier tak the third light, an nivvir ivvir volunteer fir nuthin?
SHUT UP!Now the raspberry!
It was monty python vaguely remember now,
how to attack a man armed only with a banana,
what about pointed sticks, shut up,
memories a bit dull these days,
used to piss myself at them back in the day
@ the rough bounds,
It is a bit.
I’m also not impressed by the overall design of the leaflets and fact cards.
Just because Better Together are re-using the same arguments from the 1979 devolution campaign doesn’t mean that we have to re-use the same graphic designer!
There’s a principle in graphic design that says you should use as few words as possible on any leaflet/poster/graphic you produce (the Yes campaign has a natural advantage here, being built around the single word Yes), and you should also try to avoid them being overly “busy” to the eye.
Even quite complex arguments can be got across without necessarily using dense blocks of text – that’s the whole point behind political cartoons.
No offence to whoever is designing the Yes campaign’s current graphical output (I couldn’t do any better myself) but it’s not exactly world-class. Sorry to say it.
@ Billybigbaws;
One banana?
@BillyBigBaws & the Rough Bounds –
Fuck leaflets.
I say it again – ‘Yes’ need their own team of full-time ‘Irn-Bru’ style Penguins (or Hamishes, Roary SuperScots, whatever…) randomly cuddling/befuddling punters in public spaces across the country.
Here, once more, for anyone who hasn’t seen it – the ‘Irn Bru’ penguins in action on foreign soil – just imagine the impact they’d have on their home patch?!:
“As I have said many times before; I will not entertain a single whinge from anyone if Scotland votes no next year. You made your bed now you can go and lie in the pishy mattress that Westminster has given you.
USE IT OR LOSE IT!”
no relation to General Mark NUTS Clark are you?
BLOOD AND GUTS
that’ll come that’ll come
its good to see passion though its something we can be lulled into forgetting,
we need people like you to allow us to recharge our batteries and keep the fight up
thanks robert
@ Atypical Scot
Um…..
Yes, we have no bananas?
Where did all this fruit-based frivolity come from anyway? Don’t you know there’s a war on!
@ BillyBigBaws;
A war with fuck leaflets distributed by prostitute penguins in Port Stanley (home turf)?
Highest rankin’ UK website ukgov.org.
I agree with your sentiment, war is no place for fruits – a pointed stick, maybe?
The problem with graphics is graphics.
For John King and anyone else worried about pointed sticks!
to BRACO – not really accurate because NO will definitely bring something – and that something not good – also to get people thinking about something usually requires that you not shout obscenities in their face. A campaign is about persuading those people to agree with you – not engaging in a personal moment of rage -no matter how righteous that rage may be. Put an idea in people’s mind and let it grow and it is amazing what can come out of it. But it has to be catchy and capable of growing. Quebec became autonomous – long before there was a separatist party there – partly on the basis of the slogan Masters In Our Own House – even catchier in French – because after people repeated it to themselves a few times people realized that there was no good reason for it NOT to be so.
How about No means… no escape from the likes of this (picture) and let that picture be one of the crimes + criminals from the current and recent governments, Blair and coffins/or other victims of his pride, Brown and closed shops and workplaces, Theresa May and couples separated by the “required” income regulation or or or – I live at a distance and I’m outraged at what’s going but most of you contributors to the site are in the middle of what’s going on and are going to be stuck with the consequences with poor chances of escape as the Tories will soon cut off the last (European) escape route. It’s either freedom or a life sentence.
I have made a few comments recently, on different online forums on my opinion that there is a slow but significant change happening regarding the rise in the YES vote. It is interesting that my comments have been met with, for the most part, agreement. My opinion is based on nothing more than talking to friends, family and colleagues, reading the political runes and gut instinct. Hardly scientific I know, but for me encouraging nevertheless.
I share some of the frustration expressed on here and elsewhere regarding the lack of upward movement in the polls and the seemingly lacklustre YES campaign. However, I would urge caution and above all patience. I would point to four areas of positivity:
1. There is a huge amount of work going on all over Scotland coordinated by the YES campaign. I believe it to be well organised, scientific and highly effective in building a massive grass roots campaign. I attended a recent YES meeting in Aboyne addressed by Blair Jenkins. He was good, very good.
2. There is little doubt that Alex Salmond is having a major influence on how the YES campaign is developing. He is, by common consent, the most able politician on these isles and is backed by a formidable campaigning team. They are pulling political strings on a daily basis.
3. The lies, distortions and smears of NO Scotland are beginning to have an effect. More and more Scots are dismissing the scare stories and are now laughing at the notion that we are incapable of governing ourselves. Their arsenal is approaching empty.
4. I believe we are about to witness the subtle introduction of a new dimension to the YES campaign. Look forward to the introduction of Scandinavia, a vision of prosperous, well defended countries, proud of their commitment to social justice and their version of the Common Weal.
In conclusion, be patient, have faith and work towards an independent Scotland. Our day is coming!
@ ianbrotherhood,
That was awesome, and we do need stuff like that – accentuating the difference between the optimistic and all-embracing Yes campaign as opposed to the fearful huddled insularity of Better Together. Even as things stand now, you will have more fun and laughs at a standard Yes campaign meeting than unionists will be able to muster even if the vote goes their way.
It’s one of the defining traits of unionism, I think – they’re never happy, even with everything set up to suit them (as in Northern Ireland for most of it’s existence) and are wracked with paranoia and unease even when the deck is stacked entirely in their favour.
Being hugged by a penguin won’t reassure the undecided about their pensions, though – and reminding them that their pensions have already been repeatedly raided by Westminster, while their retirement age is constantly pushed back, doesn’t seem to help much either.
I find this is a very good link to show or share with the undecided:
link to telegraph.co.uk
—
It’s from The Telegraph, so they can’t say it’s a source that’s biased in favour of independence. It reveals that Uk civil servants have known since 1975 that Scotland would be better off independent. If they have heard of the McCrone Report, this helps show them that McCrone was not alone in his opinion, or some kind of closet Nat in Whitehall. In fact, it’s such a good link that I keep expecting it to be taken down or quietly revised – but it hasn’t been yet.
I kind of wish Alex Salmond would just appear on telly and go: “Haw yous – aw yous – gawn Google the words ‘Telegraph north sea oil surplus’ then come back and tell me you need mair information. Ya fannies.”
Or words to that effect.
Handy Hints 1.
When crossing the road to referendum to independence from oblivion, mind the penguin, he’s usually armed…,
@BillyBibaws
Thanks for that link to the Telegraph story! Didn’t know it was out there.
“They calculated that Scots’ average income would increase by up to 30 per cent per head and it could be “credibly argued” that repealing the Act of Union was to Scotland’s advantage.”
That sentence alone just says it all. To the ‘undecided’s one can now ask, “How would you feel if you got a 30% pay rise? Great, yes? How well off do you think you’d be now if you’d had that 30% rise 40 years ago and your income would have kept rising in all that time? Pretty well off, eh! Much better off than now, in all probability, eh?…. Do you know that that 30% pay rise could and should have been yours, or your father’s, or your mother’s, or anyone else in your family 40 years ago but was kept from you by Westminster and the Unionists by their lies and secrecy? Terrible, eh! How do you feel now? Shocked, but that can’t be right, and how do I know that anyway? Okay, let me show you a couple of things here…..”
And another definite ‘Yes’ is added to the list.
The Unionists will disappear down the black hole of their own lies. The truth will out. Scotland will be independent.
Aye Dal Riata, it’s not so much about the money as the lies. How could anyone conciously choose to be governed under a system that would deceive them to this extent?
The worst case scenario they could come up with for an independent Scotland was that Scots might see a one-off 15% rise in GDP per capita (and therefore living standards) – but “little beyond that.” Heh.
But we didn’t become independent back then, so instead of the astronomical rise in wages and living standards that they calculated were due to us we got a decimated industrial base, generational unemployment, the fastest falling wages in the developed world, amazing vanishing pensions, gaping inequality UK-wide, and areas of the country where the male life expectancy is lower than that of North Korea.
Some deal, eh? Some Union.
Apologies my last comments should have be addressed to Robert Bryce not Braco.
To Frazer Allan Whyte
Whilst I appreciate your view on the subject I don’t agree with it entirely.
The positive “fluffy” campaign material circulated around Donside recently must have been an absolute hit with the “common folk” as it inspired a whopping 38% of them to burst out their doors on a tide of positive gay abandon and put their mark on a ballot paper.
I think we may have walked different paths to this crossroads that we have met at.
I and many many others like me understand the “industrial” language clear as day.
Horses for courses shall we say 🙂
“The positive “fluffy” campaign material circulated around Donside recently must have been an absolute hit with the “common folk” as it inspired a whopping 38% of them to burst out their doors on a tide of positive gay abandon and put their mark on a ballot paper.”
Um, the Donside by-election wasn’t a referendum on independence.
@BillyBigbaws
Aye, yer right there!
The ‘Yes’ campaign have *got* to make the McCrone report plus that Telegraph article a huge part of their strategy. Stuff that gets to the point quickly, like, ‘Do you know that you’ve been cheated out of a 30% pay rise *every year* for 40 years by Westminster?’ Then go on to tell people why. Simple and to the point. Devastating in its truth. Lots of sharp-shock information like that *has* to be a vote winner.
I don’t know what the percentage is of eligible voters for next year’s referendum who know the details of the McCrone report and subsequent articles, but I’m quite sure its not high. Once *every one* of these eligible voters are given information about the disgrace of Westminster lies and deliberate withholding of what should have been rightfully theirs, I reckon independence for Scotland is in the bag.
@ Dal Riata,
The McCrone report will not be part of the Official ‘Yes’ campaign. Its simply too negative, Yes need to project positive vision.
The more radicle of us on the ground however are able to use it with great affect in talking to people that we know.
The yes campaign and the three cheeks on the same backside No campaign offer nothing.
Yes=EU overlordship over every aspect of policy
No=EU overlordship over every aspect of policy
After all the SNP, Lib Dem, Labour and Tory are all Unionist parties…EUnionist parties
Either way no independence for the UK or Scotland.
Cap in hand to Brusselsminster for permission to fish in our own waters to drill for oil in our own waters(90 day notice). To make trade deals with the rest of the world needs EU permission.
Rev,
I stand by my intended point.
There are many in society who will not respond to any amount of positivity. These are people mainly living in deprived areas. It would be foolish for any of us to think that they give a shit about this referendum or any other referendum / elections.
I’m speaking from experience. I have family and acquintances who have been so fucked over by the state that they are now practicaly conditioned to accept their fate and content to see it out for the rest of their natural. It’s just how it is! This referndum means diddly squat to them.
My point is that maybe, just maybe if we put our point over in a language they understand (industrial) we might just be in with a shout of creating the spark to wake them up again.
The bizzare thing is that none of them disagree with me. If I dragged them into a polling booth they would vote Yes by default.
Can anyone tell me when we last had an election / referendum with a 90% turnout? I’m no expert on politics or polls but I can’t honestly remember one.
As stated before. Horses for courses!
Morag McKeown
The EU is an entirely voluntary union which any INDEPENDENT member can withdraw from. A huge amount of progressive legislation has been put in place because of the EU, but only because the member states agreed to it.
Can you identify for us something serious that the EU has inflicted on us against our will?
I want Scotland to be a integral part of the peaceful and constructive European Union though a Nordic Union is also attractive.
Robert Bryce,
I am in total agreement with both you and Frazer Allen Whyte. This is not an either or, it’s a both and !
The only point I would add to what the pair of you are saying over/under each other, is that, in my experience of the disenfranchised and serially abused non voter hunkered down (usually in their historically SLAB dominated shitehole), talking at them, either ‘softly’ or ‘industrially’, will not even dent the cynicism we are facing.
It needs a politicised voice that can be recognised as authentic, talking a language of hope that is realistic and pro active.
This kind of voice can only be found from within communities. This is where we are at the moment. YES Scotland is attracting the politically aware from all backgrounds and communities up and down Scotland, training them, encouraging them and enabling them by hooking them up to each other in a giant grass roots network.
They in turn (and in time), will recruit many more authentic voices within their communities, who will then at least get a hearing and with our message, be listened to.
This is the well that is being dug at the moment. We may not have struck water yet but then we are only half way through the time we estimated the job would take. Once the well has been dug, the water will flow and the fields will be irrigated.
That process of ‘knowledge’ irrigation will be really quite fast when it happens, but it cannot and will not happen without the channels through which the information must flow being in place.
My reading of the current situation is that we are building that system at the moment. It may seem dry, but you cannot construct an irrigation system while still allowing the water to flow.
That was all a bit flowery, sorry. But I think we all need to hold tight for the moment, do all that we can, wherever we can, on the ground or web or wherever but get ready for when the system is ready to flow!
Vote YES in September 18th 2014! (please)
@ Dave McEwan Hill
Can you identify for us something serious that the EU has inflicted on us against our will?
The Treaty of Lisbon? Though we didn’t even get a say on the matter.
link to europa.eu
All this talk of a “No” vote being backed up by additional powers is ridiculous. In case anybody missed it the Labour Party / Gordon Brown are no longer in power/Prime Minister. Who on earth cares what they say?
The only things that matter are those set out in the legally binding agreement under-pinning the referendum. Any spurious and unofficial bribes are surely interfering with the democratic process.
Murray McCallum,
Yeah, that’s what you would think isn’t it?
Peter Curran gets them telt.
Azeem Ibrahim: “We tried to keep this report as neutral as possible.”
Peter Curran: “And you failed singularly, Dr Ibrahim. It’s anything but neutral.”
link to youtube.com