The one we’ve waited for
The last two years, particularly 2018, have been a pretty miserable time in the annals of Scottish independence. Not because support has fallen – it hasn’t budged an inch, however much Unionists might try to desperately convince themselves otherwise – but because there hasn’t, in essence, been anything we could usefully do.
Faced with a brick wall of “now is not the time” intransigence from a UK government elected by England and determined to frustrate the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament, we could talk all we wanted but had no means to determine our own fate, locked in the boot of a car speeding towards a cliff edge with a lunatic at the wheel.
That age – and it’s felt like an age – is very nearly at an end.
It’s time to get ready.
Because the can Westminster has been kicking since June 2016 is almost out of road. Within the next couple of weeks, the starting gun on the UK’s exit from the EU will finally be fired, one way or the other. (It should in fact have happened in October, but an incompetent government and a useless opposition conspired to drag out the country’s misery for several pointless extra months.)
And then the politics-weary people of Scotland will be forced to confront a decision they’ve been understandably turning a blind eye to ever since 2014.
At the moment, some pundits are still suggesting that by a combination of bribery and terror, Theresa May might still – somehow – manage to get her disastrous withdrawal agreement through Parliament. Most believe it will fail by a large margin. But either outcome would turn public opinion in Scotland from No to Yes.
And that’s with Brexit still only a theory. When it starts to actually happen, when food and medicine start to disappear from shelves and all the other economic and social consequences begin to bite, those numbers are likely to climb.
Ironically, the UK government’s best chance of winning a second indyref would be to hold it next week. If they’d accepted the Scottish Parliament’s demand for a new vote in March 2017, on the condition that it be held within 18 months of that date, they’d very likely have won it and killed the issue decisively. As it’s turned out, from their perspective, then WAS the time. It’s too late for them now, and they know it, which is why they’re in such a screaming panic.
No matter what happens later this month, the Conservative Party is doomed. If the withdrawal agreement – with its Irish backstop – is passed, Theresa May will lose the support of the DUP MPs currently propping up her government, Jeremy Corbyn will finally have his hand forced into a confidence vote and there’ll be a general election.
If it’s defeated, her government’s few remaining tatters of credibility will be ripped into even smaller shreds, Ireland will erupt at the inescapable prospect of a hard border and independence, we learned above, will take a 20-point lead in Scotland. The chaos will be so total that even May might discover her long-suppressed sense of shame and stand down (triggering even more chaos).
Almost anything is still possible (although the chances of a second EU referendum, always remote, shrivel with every passing day), but the one thing that’s certain is that the day of reckoning can no longer be put off by a government that’s never had a clue what it’s doing and has finally run out of stalling time.
By the end of this month, readers, the agonising phoney war of the last two years will be over one way or another. We’re about to find out where we stand and what we’re going to do about it. These are the last few moments of peace, so get some rest now while you still can. A storm’s coming.
Oh Lordy, I hope you’re right. Bit of a sod for the rest of the “UK”, but we didn’t vote for this lunacy.
I wish the Scottish Government would take Craig Murray’s advice before a no deal Brexit actually happens on March 29th. I fear that after then the English government of the UK will make it impossible for the Scottish Government to act.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Fingers and toes crossed.
Speaking with one of the high heid yins in the EU (more properly, his burd) we realised that the EU need do nothing. Still the same this year.
2018 has indeed been a year of limbo smeared liberally with incompetence and duplicitous subterfuge. 2019 is the year the pigeons come home to roost.
I think we are more than ready to welcome our feathered friends. Time to get ready for some real action.
This is the best column you’ve wrote this year. ?. But in all seriousness totally correct. Bring it on.
Bring it on please god bring it on !
Well, I for one welcome the onrushing chaos..
I’m almost out of ‘proper’ Irn Bru and the stuff that’s left has a use by date of June.
My plan has always been to gain Indy and then perform a nationalisation of Barrs.
Oh, on a side note, a working democracy would be nice too.
Once more unto the breach.
I have been advocating for some time now, the SNP MPs in the House of Commons really need to start being pro-active on ripping-up the Treaty of Union.
The political reality is, all the power over Independence rests with Westminster. They merely devolved certain issues to Holyrood, retaining the real power – as Enoch Powell and Tam Dalyell said at the time: “Power devolved is power retained.”
The SNP will be out-vote on every issue. What I feel they ought to be doing is studying Erskine May (the handbook of Parliamentary prcedure) and causing as much mayhem as they can.
Force a sitting of the Scottish Grand Committee (the HoC body of all the Scottish MPs) and pass a motion ripping-up the Treaty of Union. Of course, the in-built English majority will immediately vote that motion down, but, if they do that enough times, even the proudest Proud Scots but, would realise what a one-sided union we are tied to.
Play the constitutional cards as never before – and, who knows, this time next year, we could be FREE at last.
Thank God. I’m getting really pissed off with all the doom mongers on Twitter swearing that they’re going to abandon the SNP because they haven’t yet called a referendum.
None of them have yet explained how this will advance the cause of independence but I’m sure they’ll come up with something soon.
This diagram helpfully posted by Richard Murphy is Jon Worth’s impression of the Brexit situation now.
To the casual observer it indicates the tangled complexity of options and as somebody observed, is a graphic representation of a ‘clusterfuck’.
If you have a screen large enough to follow the lines and consequences it’s very illuminating. It’s a graphic representation of a complete ‘clusterfuck’. Sometimes first impressions can be misleading, but not in this case.
Scotland needs to be out of this.
link to taxresearch.org.uk
Thanks for that bit of optimism among all the shite. Badly needed after reading the appaling comments from some Little Englanders on twitter re refugees/asylum seekers. None of those b******s speak for me.
There is a fair chance the TM’s vote will fail first time around but by a small enough margin for her to try again, thus kicking the can further down an ever reducing road.
On the nail as always Rev.
It’s so hard to call right now as there’s so many interdependent threads that could unwind in so many different outcomes.
The tory brexitshambles has created a Gordian knot of vast proportions.
I just hope that Nicola knows where Alexander’s sword is. We may well need it.
All the best to you all for 2019.
It’s going to be a maelstrom I suspect.
Excellent analysis Stuart. You should make sure Prof Curtice reads this.I see he is continuing to say support for Scottish Indepence hasn’t budged (Sunday Post I think). We are certainly not too wee nor too poor but there are certainly still some Scots who think we are too stupid – but thankfully they are getting fewer and fewer with each passing day. I am 80 years young and I WILL see Scottish Independence in my lifetime. Hail Alba gu brath.
[…] Wings Over Scotland The one we’ve waited for The last two years, particularly 2018, have been a pretty miserable time in the annals […]
Just looking at my ‘leaflet delivering’ bag this morning and hoping it won’t be long before it’s back out there on the streets. Bring it on.
Socrates, are you speaking to my husband, he has been shouting this forever. We will get nowhere being nice. Play their rules against them.
Medicines are already starting to disappear. See Dr Amir Khan and others on twitter.
As Stu articulates above, time is almost up. Be ready, folks.
Put this up on the last post but I think there is a serious point – our opposition is failing.
With no National to enjoy this merning I made the mistake of buying a Herald.
I now fully understand why it is following the Scotsman to irrelevancy.
It is dominated by a double page spread coralled by Tom Gordon describing in massive headlines the Nicola Sturgeon’s and the SNP’s “annus horribilis”
You know – the party that has just become the second largest party in the whole UK,led by a figure that is considered right across the UK as the only coherent voice in the Brexit shambles and whose current poll ratings now puts it about 23 points ahead of its nearest rival with support higher than the support of the other three major parties in Scotland put together. They are obviously allowed an orderly collapse.
After I had read that – shall we call it “gordonesque” – and laughed out loud I turned for a little sanity perhaps to the readers’ letters.
Help ma boab as we say. There was six readers’ letters. One from Alex Gallacher, one from David Bone, one from Martin Redfern, one from Alexander McKay and one from Keith Howell. I thought for a moment I had been rendered senseless by New Year festivity and purchased a Daily Express. (There was another from the doughty Ruth Marr. Oh Yes. To provide balance. Ho ho ho)
Is the laughable readers’ letters an illustrative example of the readers of the Herald? If so that is instead a vivid illustration of how completley irrelevant the Herald now actually is.
And how little effect it now has on real political dialogue in Scotland.
“Understand, it’s time to get ready for the storm.”
(SRV, Couldn’t Stand the Weather.)
HNY all. Cabin doors to manual.
I think some folk don’t think Brexit will actually happen and it’s all some bad dream. They will be getting a shock on 29th March and I suspect things will start going tits up very shortly thereafter.
Not sure it will merely be a storm though more a hurricane of shit.
My New Years resolution is to stop swearing…
Thanks stu.
We were having this discussion into the sma hours lady night.
Amazed at how many folk I know reckon we wont be independent because we won’t be allowed a referendum.
You’ve stated the facts clearly there Stu and also laid out exactly why Nicola has waited as long as she has.
The fog is clearing and May has to either walk the plank, jump into the fire or fall on her sword.
Even if there is a second referendum, which I would expect Remain to win, there will be uproar in parts of the South and chaos plus the EU will not easily welcome England back into the fold.
Anyone listening to Neil mc Gregor’s new series on BBC R4 in the morning. How Britain is seen in the eyes of English speaking countries which Britain tried to rule by force – India, Egypt, Nigeria, Canada and can’t deme her the 5th one.
Fascinating and brutally refreshing programme spelling out exactly how low the British reputation has sunk – if it was ever high to start with. Surprised he’s being allowed to broadcast it. Worth a listen.
Set Phasers to malky – CHECK!
I think you underestimate the people of Scotlands ignorance of political reality while we continue to allow ourselves to be influenced by the continuous spoon fed state message through an MSM which is still the bulwark of information for most Scots.
The Yes campaign still hasn’t gotten a handle of the propaganda war mostly because it is overwhelmingly controlled and influenced by the UK state.
Its a war of perception and we don’t have anywhere near the big guns the UK state can bring to bare.
What is the distribution figures for the National?
The ONLY folk who bother to subscribe or even read it are the converted. The ONLY folk who go online to pro Indy sites are the converted or the Yoon trolls who want to disrupt them.
Its a cold hard fact that the ONLY real converts we can expect this year are the EU citizens living in Scotland we could in fact lose Indy supporters who are convinced that the EU is as corrupt as the UK state.
When you have fannys like Sillars being given time and space to spew his horseshite you get the idea.
When you still have the BBC and its powerful influence making up the news as it goes along you get the idea.
Until we get to grips with the media perception war we aint going to make the progress we need to overwhelmingly overturn a reluctant UK state who could very well ignore anything other than an overwhelming demand for Independence.
The UK state is not historically known for supporting a marginal call for Independence from its sweaty grip. It has historically only let go when forced to do so.
Couldn’t agree more with the post.
Well said.
I used to write regularly to The Herald – but it was clear even before 2014 referendum that it was a ‘lost cause’ as far as impartiality was concerned .
Today it is only of use if one is short of toilet paper – post brexit , of course !
It’s a good start to the NewYear – Andy Murray has won his first match back!
Congratulations that man.
A guid new year to all Independence supporters. It’s getting closer.
Daily Record today going big time on a possible Dunblane cover-up and referencing “a prominent Labour politician” benefitting from it. Wonder who that could be.
I agree Stu 100% with what you write. I am an active person in trying to convert people to Yes. I know many people who are moving to us due to Brexit. The chaos that keeps giving. I look forward to see what events ensue.
If a GE is called soon I think the EU will just give up with us. The financial markets will continue to drop and employment levels will start to decline. Sadly a damaged England will not help a free Scotland’s economy but it will be worth it.
The new ‘Wee Black Book’ in advanced preparation I would guess.
What role will our ever complicit “Scottish” media play?
Will they finally do what is right? I somehow doubt it, and that is why winning will still be a major challenge for us.
But win we will. And when I say we, I mean everyone. Even ardent no voters will quickly see what an independent Scotland will achieve for them and theirs.
Happy 2019 Wingers. Thank you Stu for all you do and have done.
Andrew Morton @11:50
When the ground has been chosen and the defences put in place. Everyone watered and fed, rested. Each has their brief. On the day, as we stand in the rain and watch the opposition filter into our sights there will always be a few who pop open their pouches too early.
The rest of us will keep our powder dry right until the order is given. There’s enough of us. Trust in NS and the SNP.
The other side of Indy I am likely to vote for a more conservative party, right now though, it’s all for one and one for all.
Scots wha hae and roll on 2019
Great article.
Interesting observation about 2017 being the time the unionists were most likely to win IndyRef2.
They are mad this lot but I suspect they have known all along that yes is likely to win even back then as 45% is a strong base to to build from in a campaign.
They want to keep Scotland through less democratic means and the dirty tricks will only increase.
We need to be more resolute than ever now to make Indy happen. No longer play by their rules call an Indy vote regardless, withdraw our MPs from WM, etc…
I’m upferit!
Itching to do something and nervous about the future in equal measure.
My daughter talking to me about my numberplate which has yes and a number, she asked if I thought we’d be independent by then and I said yes…
So by god let’s get going, I have a promise to keep!
Socrates MacSporran says:
1 January, 2019 at 11:50 am
“….. – as Enoch Powell and Tam Dalyell said at the time: “Power devolved is power retained.”
Too many people people hear that and dismiss it’s material significance. When you exhort yourselves to fight over devolved issues like the Continuity Bill, or appeal to Westminster for anything, you have already swallowed the pill that Westminster is the superior authority deciding what happens in Scotland.
It’s a little bit like wearing the kilted uniform which they give you to wear, it’s Scottish by its nature, but it’s “Scottishness” given to you by their discretion…
When your mind’s eye finally sees the absurdity of a sovereign people blindly asking permission to be just a little bit sovereign, and then add the ludicrous spectacle of the false Sovereign saying “no”, surely, surely, the constitutional Penny has to finally drop. Westminster is not our government, and Holyrood is merely a proxy legislature, proxy legislature that is, until such a time that Holyrood ceases to draw its Parliamentary authority from Westminster and starts “supping it neat” from the absolute sovereign will of the Scottish people.
We should not fear Westminster “trying” to shut down Holyrood or trying to curtail it’s powers. We should be confronting such unconstitutional disrespect and perfidy like a runaway express train. Bring it on. This is not the Constitutional End Game we have all been fearing,… this is the Constitutional End Game they’ve been fearing.
For the first time in 300+ years, may the blinkers fall from our eyes and the whole population of Scotland finally see the Union for the study in grubby deception and manipulative exploitation which it always has been. Let us bring it down and free ourselves of this malevolent fallacy.
Scotland will stay in Europe because Scotland decided that it would. They will still call it Brexit, but when England leaves Europe in 87 days, Scotland will be staying put.
Time is short Nicola Sturgeon. You have less than 87 days to get our Nation’s Legal Personality sorted, less than 87 days to secure Scotland’s rights as a Sovereign Interlocutor and liaise with Europe to save ourselves from Brexit. With due respect, and the last of my patience, get it done or step aside and get out of the way.
A storm is coming hopefully one that Scotland can weather, and break free from the maelstrom into calmer independent waters.
Inspiring post Stu.
If you were a Unionist resident in Scotland who would you choose to represent the best interests of you and your family?
The breathtakingly incompetent Tories or the equality incompetent Labour, what a selecion because thats the only real choices for unionists.
For the first time in my life and I’m getting on, I think no one want to take charge in Westminster. The Tories and Labour haveall
Mike @ 12:20pm:
Genuinely not too sure about that. Not the stuff you mention about the grip of the media; I think that’s a fair observation and it remains an issue. I also agree that online a lot of what you see is from people who are always debating the issue and are converts to one side of the debate or the other.
Nevertheless, and while acknowledging that my experiences can only ever be anecdotal and may not be general, I have observed some interesting stuff going on in recent times.
I am aware of people who admit they are ‘not interested in politics and I find it boring’ and ‘prefer to watch Strictly’ who nevertheless want to know ‘when the’s independence referendum going to happen?’ and in fact express impatience.
Furthermore, I am aware of an implacable No voter from 2014 (whom I had to cease talking politics with such were the arguments at times) who is now stating unprompted (for, as I say, I avoided the topic!) that he sees certain opportunities for an independent Scotland, although he remains skeptical (and really I am not sure he would change his vote).
In the latter case in particular, I am not highlighting these as ‘comforting No to Yes’ stories per se, but they demonstrate that for some people are least the issue is very definitely ‘live’ and they are not all by any means ‘the converted’.
Folk ARE thinking out there and I think it would be a mistake to imagine that only those who are commenting on things etc are reading them….and certainly when forced to read up on the issue again in order to make their choice, many people will.
Breeks, your last paragraph is a disgrace. Go back and read the article again.
This is exactly why Westminster and Whitehall will declare a State of Emergency.
Their need to control Brand UK will empower them to shut down the Scottish, Welsh and NI governments.
Any response will be seen as destabilising Brand UK, with their response being military intervention, and our chance of a ‘legal’ referendum lost to the mists of time.
Rest assured I’ll be girding my loins as they’ve never been girded before.
Sorry about that fat fingers
Tories and Labour have all shit in the chamber and no one wants to clean it up.
Folks in Scotland must go for independence now as there is no other credible option.
We must know this, the corrupt regime will use every trick in the book legal and illegal to thwart the will of the Scottish people.
Hard fight ahead folks, but remember convert one person and you have done your bit.
Due to the mess Westminster has made of things the last thing they can afford is wealthy Scotland gaining Independence.
I believe we will be shocked by tactics deployed by the Regime in their attempts to defeat Scotland.
So knowing all of the above what is Westmonster going to do. . . . . Nothing, just sit back and let it happen.
If they can’t hold on to us by democratic means and their army of propagandist’s they’ll try something different!
They have stopped elections to the Northern Ireland assembly.
A guid New Year to yin an’aw
What will be, will be.
@ Scottie Dog
I strongly suspect that the days of “won’t be allowed” are drawing to a close. Too many people are being forced to acknowledge that the King has no-clothes-on and, as such, lacks the legitimate authority to allow or disallow anything. Laid bare, the myth of the British State, despite its well practiced propaganda and Disneyland raza-ma-taz, will be seen to amount to very little in terms of substance.
My prediction. Hard Brexit. Indy Ref 2 consultative in April. We win , WM refuse to recognise. Bullies sent to Holyrood to intimidate us. SNP resign election called in June.SNP win. UDI declared in July.
Understand this simple fact. We may well have to leave the EU before people truly grasp what it means. There will be no continuity as many hope. We know already what is at stake,whilst others are becoming more and more aware on a daily if not hourly basis.
RE entry would undoubtedly be quick after a successful indy, but the basic nature of people is to hope that something will still occur to stop the lunacy in their lives.
A sad fact is that experience is often the only lesson from which they learn for the future.
It gives us a major platform and something to offer, which is very very important.
Interesting article, I’d put money though on NOT knowing where we are by the end of the month. Just a hunch.
The agonising phoney war might be dragged out for a bit longer yet.
I’m so ready.
Bring it on.
Excellent article. Perfect for the first day of this critical year.
I suspect the old adage …. no gain without pain … will have particular relevance to the Indy cause and how Brexit relates to it. Some people need to get a taste of just how shite the UK has become to force them off the fence and firmly into YES. TMay and her Tories look like delivering lots of shite on cue.
Declare UDI before this Brexshit happens.
The UK government (whoever that may be) will be up to its ears in crap as not to notice that Scotland has left.
Declare UDI and go for it.
Malcolm McCandless says:
1 January, 2019 at 1:22 pm
Declare UDI before this Brexshit happens.
That would be madness. Why on earth would we declare UDI two weeks before the UK government play straight into our hands?
I like Big Jock’s prediction. Wait until Brexit is stark staring unavoidable lunacy, then have two referenda – the second one a proxy one via a Holyrood election.
THEN – and only then – declare independence – with lots of international support by then.
I think the chances of a second Brexit referendum are increasing rather than decreasing. If May loses the vote for her deal, the only options will be a no-deal Brexit or no Brexit. A no-deal Brexit will be catastrophic and the attempt to scare MPs and public about it will rebound on May. A second referendum will allow panicking MPs to pass responsibility, one way or the other, on to the people.
When all around the Unionist are losing their heads remember folks its the Quickening .
At last – the Rev announces our call to arms!!! Happy new year everyone!!! 🙂
Scottish complacency is now our biggest enemy, most people think that nothing is going to happen and that we are all being fed scare stories, it will be all right on the night.
When reality hits home it will hit hard and MSM will try to blame it on the SNP it wont work. Interesting days ahead.
Do people actually read stuff on here ?
The impossibility of UDI has been explained literally hundreds of times, yet still it is ‘demanded’ on a daily basis.
That makes the motive to keep demanding it as questionable.
Go look up the definition of UDI ffs, then ask, in what way does that apply to Scotland ?
geeo
Every Independent state who took their Independence from Westminster literally did it via UDI. Kind of makes you look like an imbecile eh?
Remain will also be a possibility. No10 has allowed that in the debate on the deal other options will be allowed to be tabled. IF the SNP/PC/FibDems/Greens table a revocation of Article 50 and Remain on the basis of all other options being economic suicide it might just achieve a majority and dare May to head a govt found in contempt of parliament twice in two months.
It might not be the end of Independent hopes though as England might well erupt in rioting and thus make continued union with it look even less viable than clusterfuck incompetent government. We could see troops on the street in England in riot gear a la Northern Ireland with no guarantee they are not lethally armed. Will the powers that be dare to use Scottish troops in England?
We live in potentially Interesting Times.
The use of the term “devolution” in respect to Holyrood is an inaccuracy bordering on propaganda.
In Scots Law, the only one relevant in Scotland, the people are sovereign. Even if you contend the monarch is bear in mind they are only such as long as we say so. The only hope Westminster has of downplaying that may very well be to “allow” an independence referendum this year rather than attempt to repeat their fucking over of the 8th centennial celebrations of Bannockburn next year with the Declaration of Arbroath.
Rambling aside. The point is no elected assembly hold sovereignty over Scotland but rather exercise it on behalf of it’s people. The very idea of “devolution” is meaningless in such a scenario. Westminster, Holyrood, local councils and the EU all have reign over various aspects of Scots sovereignty delegated to them by us. And yes, I’m saying the decision of the Supreme Court is incompetent or at best deliberately narrow.
@Mike
“Every Independent state who took their Independence from Westminster literally did it via UDI. Kind of makes you look like an imbecile eh?”
With the exceptions of Canada, Australia and New Zealand who didn’t do it via UDI.
@Johnny 12:57
I would genuinely love to share your optimism yet I cant get past the fact that support for Independence hasn’t moved in the last year. How bad does it actually have to get? People still don’t see the reality that is literally smacking them in the face because the reality has been smoke screened by a media wilfully spreading confusion disinformation misinformation and deflection.
People in Scotland are dying because of UK Government policy they have been for years. Can you imagine if every death due to Government imposed legislation made headline news how long that Government would be in power? Its because its not headline news we still have Tory Governments that’s the level of media manipulation we live with.
Reality itself is not only ignored its rewritten. SUCCESSFULLY.
Any real journalist worth his salt would have been out in the streets listening to the stories of people forced to visit foodbanks been evicted by force because they cant afford to pay rent the horror of universal credit all of it suppressed. Instead we read about the Royal fucking family and the quarrels of Princesses. How Jeremy Corbyn mouthed stupid women how the EU is being unreasonable how to create a 250,000 pension portfolio.
Suppression repression denial ignorance deflection this is our media this is our reality.
i suppose if the scotsgov fail to get the budget approved, then a scots GE will solve all our problem & rUK can GTF
Not long now.
@Thepnr
Yes they actually did. They did not seek nor were granted any agreement regarding their Independence they simply stated their intent and followed it through. You’re conflating armed conflict with UDI.
Felt great after reading this. You do get the impression that momentum is building when you speak to people in person but the media is still going to be the greatest challenge. I’m really grateful that we have WOS to spearhead our approach to that problem.
Not sure about this analysis. I watched the select committee on Leaving the EU in mid-December. The view of the 4 experts seemed to be that a ‘no-deal’ brexit would not cause a hard border in Ireland as neither the Republic or UK wants it. So we would carry on as at present, though over time changes would be forced, mostly by 3rd. parties aggrieved at the misuse of the non-border. They seemed to suggest that the same would be the case at Dover etc. as it wouldn’t be in anyone’s interests to cause chaos. Matthew Parris (the thinking mans Tory) echoed this in his Times column in late December, saying that rather than chaos, new regulations would probably be introduced over a protracted period and the UK economy would slowly decline (frog in a pan of water). If this happens it will make it much harder to call an IndyRef as there still won’t be clarity about the UKs future trading position.
Breeks I used to read your posts and at one time thought you might know what your talking about however in the last few months they have become nothing more than SNP Baaad
Who do you think you are? Demanding that our democratically elected leader who has the respect of the vast majority of Indy Supporters stand aside! , your coming across as a delusional fuckwit.
@Mike – Scotland is a co-signatory of the Treaty of Union which is completely different to being a colony. Scotland is NOT a non-country as all the countries who had to become independent were. [Though I see why you might think Scotland is only a colony!]
@ James Mills 12.25 – you used to be a regular correspondent in The National too, I believe. I’ve not spotted your name there for a year or so!
@Mike
Are you sure? I know that it’s more complicated than the examples I give below but it looks to ma as if all these countries became Independent through the passing of laws in parliament. As I see it at least they sought Independent from Westminster rather than just declare they were Independent. Isn’t that what the USA did?
New Zealand
The British Parliament passed the New Zealand Constitution Act 1852 to grant the colony’s settlers the right to self-governance, only 12 years (in 1853) after the founding of the colony. New Zealand was therefore to all intents and purposes independent in domestic matters from its earliest days as a British colony.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Austrailia
Australia became an independent nation on 1 January 1901 when the British Parliament passed legislation allowing the six Australian colonies to govern in their own right as part of the Commonwealth of Australia.
link to australia.gov.au
Canada
The Canada Act 1982 (1982 c. 11) is an act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which was passed (as stated in the preamble) at the request of the Parliament of Canada, to “patriate” Canada’s constitution, ending the power of the British Parliament to amend the Constitution of Canada. The act also formally ended the “request and consent” provisions of the Statute of Westminster 1931 in relation to Canada, whereby the British parliament had a general power to pass laws extending to Canada at its own request.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Phillip Maughan
Since when has UK politics been functioning in whats in everybodies best interests? Are you this naïve or corrupt? Another reality denier?
What experts? Experts in what? Leaving the EU? How did they qualify as experts? Is there a course? Training? Qualifications?
Its an ACTUAL FACT that legislation applied via treaty obligation no longer exists when that treaty is ended. That’s whats going to happen at the end of march 40 plus years of joint legislation built up amended and structured to get us where we are today will cease to apply overnight when the treaty between the UK and EU no longer applies. That leaves us in legal limbo as far as our relationship with our nearest European neighbours is concerned. Travel transportation movement between our states of any kind is no longer controlled or covered by ANY legal legislation. Legally we could jump on a plane with a bag full of heroin and be outside of any law or legal restraint until we tried to sell it or use it. That’s the reality of the situation as far as transporting anything or anybody there will literally be no laws in place to determine what and who can or cannot be transported.
DO YOU GET IT YET?
@Thepnr
Wow just wow. See this is what I mean by the suppression and misrepresentation of reality. Here we are being told that Australia Canada and New Zealand were given permission by the UK state to take their Independence based on the FACT that Westminster was FORCED by COMPUCTION to dissolve its OWN LEGISLATION by the FACT that Canada Australia and New Zealand DEMANDED their Independence.
There was no agreement reached the UK state didn’t in all of its benevolence secede to a request from a representation from Canada Australia and New Zealand to GRANT them through the kindnest of the heart the UK state is renowned for in its colonisation program.
You just presented a white washed version of the reality where the power and influence over the control of Canada Australia and New Zealand was POLITICALLY fought for and won by NATIONALISTS who FORCED the UK state to ACCEPT THEIR DEMANDS for INDEPENDENCE and there by cancel their legislative treaties.
Don’t tell me you going to run with the UK state granted them Independence because it wanted to?
@Mike
Your definition of UDI is obviously different to my definition of UDI.
@Thepnr
Wasn’t the UK state FORCED to sign the same declaration of Independence to the US as they did with the countries you listed?
The ONLY difference is the level of applied pressure put on the UK state to secede to the demands.
Every state who took their Independence from Westminster did so through the application of pressure and forced will. NONE of them were granted their Independence before that pressure was applied.
That’s the very concept of UDI.
Thepnr
I don’t have my own version of UDI I just see the interpretation of the actual definition in greater detail than you appear to.
It takes a 2/3rd vote to call an early Holyrood election or an inability to elect a First Minister. All the SNP resigning does is leave it in the hands of unionists until the constituency bye elections are held. Assuming new elections are allowed. In all probability a tactical voting campaign will ensure less SNP MSPs are returned. In the meantime Davidson will “reluctantly” assume the post of First Minister and her administration will repeal any independence legislation whilst giving consent to any crippling of Holyrood’s powers including abolishing it in all but name.
TLDR a unilateral resignation of SNP elected representatives would be a Cupid Stunt, to reference Kenny Everett.
It seems likely at this point that a desperate gov will try to put off WM vote as long as possible. This does not prevent ScotParl from acting in Jan – the cliff edge is within view now, whatever shenanigans WM tries.
Medicine shortages are already apparent. I suspect food shortages will become evident by early Feb – most of the Xmas food we’re consuming now has probably been stored but look out for decreasing choices shortly. I’m sure those wretched refugees and migrants risking channel crossing in toy inflatables will be to blame so that’ll deflect for a while.
Until the time is right [it must be soon] pro-indy politicians must give the troops some red meat to dine on.
@Mike – have you read my comment at 2.10? I think you are misunderstanding Scotland’s status. Scotland is NOT a colony that has to seek independence by UDI or other means.
Scotland is a country and its kingdom formed a union by treaty with another country’s kingdom. Scotland will be dissolving the treaty, and restoring its self-governance.
@Mike
Political pressure and weight of public opinion forced the the UK into agreeing their Independence.
The countries mentioned didn’t “Unilaterally Declare Independence” they sought it through political pressure and eventually got it by AGREEMENT with the UK, not by just asserting, fuck you UK we’re Independent now cos I said so.
Usually the latter leads to bad things happening.
Daily Record on full blown SNP Bad to start
The new year as they finished the old one.
Letters full of SNP Bad stories from the Unionist Alliance supporters.
The Dunblane Massacre cover up by Westminster mainly covers up
The relationship between the suspected paedo Thomas Hamilton and
Labour’s Lord Hamilton who pushed police to give him a fire arms license.
It is beloved Gordon Brown also met Hamilton.
Valuables acquired under the proceeds of Crime
Must be sold at public auction however Hamilton,
Who had no money, seems to have purchased a very
Expensive yacht for Only £5,000 in a private sale?
It seems that yachts are a favourite tool for paedos
As kids might like the idea of a boat trip and
Should kids scream for help at sea there is no one to hear them.
Threats of being drowned may also assist these horrific monsters in
Their dirty deeds.
Tory PM Ted Heath was very fond of his yachts!
Would you let your kids be watchd by Lord Denning, Cyril Smith,
or Peter Morrison all leading lights in the Westminster Mafia?
Thepnr
“Forced into agreement” Wasn’t that the case between the US Ireland and India as well?
I firmly believe Nicola is holding fire because she doesn’t want to give the unionists a reason to join together.And to use a Scotland independence challenge as their excuse to put their differences aside would suit the red, yellow and blue tories just perfectly right now.
If Nicola waits until their is no longer anyway the London parties can use Scotland as a getout clause, then she will strike.
I reckon it has to be soon, but be patient, keep talking and keep working towards independence.
I have faith in our YES movement and our First Minister.
I have faith in you.
@Mike
“Forced into agreement” Wasn’t that the case between the US Ireland and India as well?
Yeah that’s true and as I said that route doesn’t usually end well. I seem to remember that all three examples you give resulted in war and death.
How many died in the “Wars of Independence” in Canada, New Zealand or Australia? That’s right, precisely zero because it was done with AGREEMENT and not a UDI.
You’ve already called someone with a different view on UDI to yours an “imbecile” I think it might be wise to put down that shovel.
Thepnr
If you don’t initially declare your intent to be Independent do you think it will be granted on a whim or do you think an UNILATERAL declaration of intent is needed first?
Wishful thinking; The play’s not over til the fat lady sings, up to 2300 29 Mar this year Treeza can play the rescind Art 50 card. If we are fighting an Indy ‘coz Brexit campaign and there is no Brexit we are going to look a bit foolish. To say nothing about how the cry of ‘no more divisive referendums’ would play.
However we need to have all the parameters, 16 yr olds, EU nationals, postal votes only to Scottish addresses not more than 1 week prior to the vote, etc. in law prior to the 29th so that Westminster has to overthrow that legislation to prevent indyref2 from happening.
Thepnr
So you think the definition of UDI relative to magnanimous gifting of Independence is based on the degree of pressure applied before declaration?
Interesting.
Good song. Upful. Which is how I fee ATM and hope to see the whole country feeling upful as time goes on. Listening to the English pundits on the radio review the year is painful though. I think there is a miasm of depression sinking over London and the south east like a cold smog.
The SNP people in WM should walk out just as the WM vote is about to be announced, that is the time when most of the EU and the world will be watching.
The people of Scotland and the Sottish parliament has spoken, we want to stay in the EU.
Thepnr
Let me put it in more simpler terms. The UK state has been FORCED into every “Agreement” relative to the “Granting” of Independence through varying degrees of applied pressure and force.
You define UDI in relative terms to the degree of force applied I don’t. UDI is the declared intent to become Independent made by a UNITARY state to another irrespective of how much force and pressure has to be applied before the agreement is reached.
Thepnr
And just for the record its not the declaration of UDI that causes war and conflict its the denial of the legitimacy of UDI that causes the war and conflict as all acts of fascism tend to do.
“Faced with a brick wall of “now is not the time” intransigence from a UK government elected by England and determined to frustrate the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament, we could talk all we wanted but had no means to determine our own fate, locked in the boot of a car speeding towards a cliff edge with a lunatic at the wheel”.
No dispute from me about that. However, you go on to say:
“That age – and it’s felt like an age – is very nearly at an end”. Is it? How is it? You fail to explain.
The highest court of the UK ruled UK Parliament is sovereign. If the decision of UK Parliament continues to be “now is not the time” then what? What’s going to end that?
Please do tell me Stu, what’s the SNP’s answer gonnae be? Please convince me the SNP have a solution. Are you suggesting the FM and SNP would defy the UK state?
Nicola Sturgeon leading the rebellion? Nicola Sturgeon has spent all her professional political life administering Tony Blair’s colonial devolution, and the last two years trying to save the UK state from Brexit ruin.
2019 is the year Nicola becomes a rebel? That would be worth waiting for.
Wait and see seems to be your only answer. I think that’s probably the best answer anyone can give. Interesting times ahead.
And, Happy New Year to you.
read the article
support for yes……..hasn’t budged an inch
45/47%
however you define udi, unless you have a majority, you dont have a mandate for anything
the best chance the unionists have of winning indyref2, is to call it now.
think about this when you next hear folk threaten the snp for delaying indyref2
@Mike
Bollocks, you really are tying yourself in knots now LOL
@Sarah
That’s all well and good but don’t go mistaking reality for what goes on in the UK. Westminster doesn’t do reality it does perception of reality and the perception South of the border is that Greater England is the UK and the UK is Greater England. Scotland is simply a region of Greater England. You can transpose the term Britain for England because to them its the exact same thing.
The treaty of union ceased to have any meaning the day it was signed.
The perception Westminster has been fostering for over 310 years is the perception of the Unitary state.
One Kingdom to rule them all,
One Kingdom to find them,
One Kingdom to bring them all,
And in the darkness bind them.
Independence is more than just a fight to rid ourselves of the Westminster Parliamentary rule its a fight to keep our very identity as a Nation state.
If your desire is to adopt the English identity then Independence is not for you.
Thepnr
Well that’s convincing. I guess that’s you given up then.
@schrodingers cat
No UK Government has had a Democratic mandate to do anything in living memory. Democratic mandates are ignored in the UK.
Some of us need a good steak pie in us
rid of all that tetchiness
Fact check.
Rhodesia declared UDI from the british empire in 1965. It was the first country to do so since the American colonies.
The declaration was judged illegal by the U.N. and interational sanctions were put in place.
Mike, just STFU and go have another drink or something. What you are saying is pish.
Can’t believe Stu posts the most upbeat article in months and all we get is concern troll drivel.
I’ve been seeing quite a lot of comment across the digital world to the effect that Nicola Sturgeon *must* call it or move aside.
My question to them would be just who exactly would you replace her with? I can see no obvious replacement that would be as good as she is.
The timing is absolutely critical. Move too soon and we will lose for sure and that will be it for at least 20 years. Move too late and WM could block all attempts once they don’t have the ECJ looking over their shoulder.
I wouldn’t want to be in Nicola’s shoes right now with so much resting on such nebulous outcomes.
‘Mike’ is new one for the new year it seems…
‘Agent coco has been rumbled despite his cunning disguise, better send in a new one’…
WM can ACT however it likes, but in the real world, the TREATY OF UNION is EXPLICIT in its description of the United Kingdom status.
And by legal definition, coupled with Sovereignty resting with the People of Scotland, UDI is LEGALLY IMPOSSIBLE for Scotland.
Did all these countries you talk about, declaring UDI from the empire, have LEGALLY EQUAL PARTNER status ?
Were the PEOPLE of those Empire colonies LEGALLY SOVEREIGN ?
Calling someone an ‘imbecile’ when you patently have ZERO CLUE what you are on about, hoists your ridiculous stupidity on its own petard.
Bravo, you are already dumber than coco, who at least knows he is talking shi*e, you actually seem to believe the drivel leaking out yer pie-hole.
You have fixated on Thepnr, i seem to recall another person used to do that, but the name escapes me, maybe you are the same one huh ?
Anyhoo, feel free to post mair inane dribbles, this is your one response from me.
Bye bye.
@Mike…
I don’t want a UDI for the simple reason that’s the protocol for creating a new country. I don’t want a new country built on first principles because it has the massive responsibility of creating itself, defining itself, and successfully all disputes and disputed statuses which go hand in hand with a new nation being created. That is why many UDI’s get bogged down and struggle to secure international recognition. The Scotland that a UDI would create would begin Year 1, and might even struggle to wrestle free the very title “Scotland”.
You would reduce Scotland to being a breakaway secessionist Nation in wanting, a piece of a homogeneous United Kingdom that simply broke off and then had fight for everything from its Continuer State superior. Scotland is no such thing. Scotland is one component in an equal alliance of two. Whenever that relationship ends, we will not cut and run, but stand our ground and take back what is rightfully and lawfully ours. Why would we not???
I repeat, I do not want a “new” Scotland, because we have the Auld Scotland, with a history and Constitution which has informed and enlightened the world for centuries, with an unbroken line of 400 Kings before the fateful calamity of Alexander III and his granddaughter Margaret, the Maid of Norway… We don’t need to “create” anything. We don’t need to define our borders, define our culture, define our lineage, define our ancestry… it’s all there, inseparable from the story of Scotland…. Auld Scotland.
I don’t want a Sevco Scotland created from plastic and MDF by a UDI, I want Auld Scotland, the priceless antique, resurrected in all its oak, blood and iron tradition and reputation, and a Nation welcomed by the other nations of the world as a long lost acquaintance which is welcomed back into the international family of Nations.
Don’t create a new Scotland with a UDI, use our 700 year old Constitution to liberate and rehabilitate the old one, because it was one-of design classic and worth a spectacular amount of prestige and irreplaceable heritage.
England should hope the end of the Union might end with Scotland’s UDI, because they would profit immensely from such a cheap and easy, ill deserved settlement. Auld Scotland however, hold title over a whole lot more that will cost them dear…
Who exactly says the indy vote has not moved, everyone of us knows at least one person who has changed from No to Yes. Do we really believe these polls – unless carried out by snp or wings I would not believe a word spoken by ANY MEDIA OUTLET.
The media and the msm we currently have will change when even they can see the writing on the wall. It is only money, connections, dirty dealing, and dirty promises that are keeping them on life support.
Declaring UDI would turn all Unionists against you, even the ones who have come over since the last referendum.
History tells us that UDI is neverending because the former ? always lays claim to that territory, and their allies back them up.
Look for yourself at the list of former UDI declarations and see what trouble it brings to the door.It is not the way.
We are on track to win a democratic vote on the issue. That is the road we travel first. If that fails then who knows, because we would still be acting against the wishes of a majority, if they refuse independence again. .
There remains many roads to travel in this saga, but some are more appropriate than others.
I feel more than ready for the storm this time – the Scottish one, anyway. Last time around I had all the mental shifting to do. I went from someone who supported independence, in theory, but in practice felt it would be too hard and divisive and federalism or devo max would be better; to having my eyes opened by the UK and unionists to how that could never happen (and those arguing for it were as derided and abused as indy supporters).I spent endless hours debating to persuade myself as much as anyone else.
This time around, I need to do no thinking, no debating with myself, and have zero intention of getting into any debates with unionists. If the UK is Brexiting, then unionists are Brexiteers, end of. I have no time for them, and no intention of polite debate. I’ll weather the storm with beer, music and friends and the block button on Twitter.
And this time around, I have a distinct feeling it will be easier. Last time I honestly had no idea whether many of my friends and acquaintances were yes, no or maybe and it was a topic that was often avoided. This time around I know, and I know how solid support for indy really is, in my group anyway. That in itself will begin to shift many doubters.
Here’s to 2019!
Some people want Independence, some people don’t, some people don’t care, some people are too frightened to choose and there are still some people who haven’t a clue what’s going on about anything
To me that looks like a lot of people in the needing told and convincing bracket, the die hard Yoonatics will do just that die hard because they’re fanatics who believe a lot of stuff that doesn’t exist because they want to
Our next door neighbours the Republic of Ireland on a small population have a better standard of living than us, more money than us, a higher GDP than us, a higher growth rate than us, a higher state pension than us, spend about £3 billion less on defence than us while we’re forced to fork out monumental sums of money and get nothing in return but the rusting hulks of nuclear submarines that deter nobody, and they’re a damn site happier than us
The Republic of Ireland’s Christmas tree was laden with a lot more pressies than ours and the EU stands by them and helped put those pressies on their tree while we’re sitting in Scotland wondering if there’s going to be a tree next year at all, and you know what we’ll have to wrap them in crappy newspapers because Christmas paper isn’t even made in the UK anyway
Neither is most of the lavvy paper
BTW Scotland now has it’s own very large line up of prominant people ready and willing to speak up for Scotland who didn’t utter a stutter before
This campaign will be a stoater but we’re going to have to hang on just short of four weeks then BANG! off we go!
Oooh! BTW anybody seen Prince Phillip the Greek lately, because they might be waiting to pull that one out at the right time, they do like to use the much loved Royal or celebrity demise to flood the airwaves with
Dr Jim @ 4.20pm wrote:
“Oooh! BTW anybody seen Prince Phillip the Greek lately, because they might be waiting to pull that one out at the right time, they do like to use the much loved Royal or celebrity demise to flood the airwaves with.”
I hve been warning of that eventuality for about three weeks now Dr Jim. I would put nothing past the Establishment to get their way on Brexit.
On a personal note I’ve created 16 NO to YES folk in the last year and not only that joined up SNP members to boot and I’m nobody special so I guess there are loads of us who’ve done the same
Don’t look at the polls, they’re mince
winifred mccartney says:
“Who exactly says the indy vote has not moved, everyone of us knows at least one person who has changed from No to Yes”
I know of 7 in total, 2 of which happened the day before the vote (they had already used the postal ballot and were truly sorry they couldn’t change it)
I hope the #WeeBlueBook2 is ready to go….
To Mike….To pnr….
Interesting debate on UDI.
I reckon you are both partly correct.
I don’t think Scotland is similar to Canada Australia New Zealand India etc because of distance, it was very much a different world when those countries decided they did not want to be controlled by a very distant very controlling and bossy England any longer.
Scotland is much easier to control than any of those other countries especially because of the integration of authorities including media HM Forces and Police.
We have seen HM Forces and the Police used against people in Scotland in so called industrial disputes and if you remember the miners strike and some of the newspaper media strikes you will recall that the violence used against the people is limitless.
Think then just how likely it would be that Westminster will use those forces against the people of Scotland even if there is a majority for Scottish independence in holyrood or 50% -60% in referendum votes.
Many many people in England believe they have a right to a vote on Scottish independence ,really they do ,amazing isn’t it but that is how England looks upon Scotland.
Mike….you are correct in that respect.
Nicola Sturgeon I believe has considered all this and has decided that a Scottish independence referendum before Brexit occurs would risk Englands Westminster deflecting English people’s thoughts away from their current enemy the EU to a new insider enemy Scotland which in itself would swamp Scotland with new hatred and persuade some people in Scotland to feel that the SNP have betrayed its neighbour at a time when it needs support.
Nicola Sturgeon will correctly call a referendum once Brexit occurs and cannot be altered.Once Brexit has happened and there is no way back a Scottish independence referendum will occur and likely be a win for YES.The margin of the win will not be huge because of the 800,000 English people living in Scotland who will mostly vote against Scottish independence , I think ten percent of them will not vote at all and ten percent of them will vote YES but that still leaves 640,000 English NO votes and then the Labour voters who stick rigidly to the dream of socialism for all will not change either nor will the wealthy Tories so a fairly large number of people possibly as many as one million eight hundred thousand intransigent NO voters will be unchangeable.
That leaves as little as 200 or 250 thousand voters including new first time voters that can possibly be changed from NO to YES giving the YES side a possible victory of 5% or less.
How will Englands Westminster react to that ?
How will English people living in England react to that ?
How will the English people living in Scotland react to that ?
How will the other NO voting people in Scotland react to that especially those who are MP,s in holyrood and Westminster and those who are councillors in labour Tory and Lib dem councils ?
It will not be easy to decide the right time to hold the Scottish independence referendum but I am certain Nicola sturgeon and the SNP have it all thought through, how could they not ? having seen and experienced the underhanded and often sneaky behaviour of Westminster to date.
Onwards and upwards I say.
Scottish independence is the correct way to go.
I feel sorry for those who want to remain under the heel of Englands Westminster because it must surely be that they don’t know any better or they have no conscience for their fellow citizens wellbeing as long as their own financial wellbeing is protected.
‘Mike’
Do you want independence? – just asking.
@Rev
“and independence, we learned above, will take a 20-point lead in Scotland”
I’m going to take issue with this. The actual survey was 46% Independence, 32% No deal Brexit, and that’s a lead of 14% (points)
Wait for it.
BUT the don’t knows were 22%, eliminating don’t knows by the same ratio gives that roughly 20 point lead. But I personally think more than the standard ratio are likley to go for Indy, giving a potential lead of up to 36 points – 68% against 32%.
And that’s fertile ground for us.
@Terence callachan
Thank for not using paragraph breaks because as a whole it it truly a marvellous monument to utter bullshit.
TC You will not be deterred and I salute your indefatigably.
I would not be surprised if somebody is being kept alive, so they can switch off the power when they feel this is the time.
URL for that survey (page 8 of 11):
link to drg.global
“Until we get to grips with the media perception war we aint going to make the progress”
It’s a no-brainer. Some views from Critical Media Studies and Qualitative Social Research perspectives.
Theoretical Perspectives in Media-Communication Research: From Linear to Discursive Models
link to qualitative-research.net
Social Media and the Public Sphere
link to triple-c.at
Delivering Trust: Impartiality and Objectivity in the Digital Age
link to reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk
To …the pnr…
You have an idea of the past but it’s not supported by fact or sensibility.
Still ,it’s interesting to see how others think of the past.
England only ever negotiated when it was losing and once it had set a trap to deliver a crucial blow to the opposition, often with the help of insider information, bribery has always been a chief negotiator.
UDI is and always has been taken ,never given, only a misinformed fool would think otherwise.
Your basics are interesting .
More realistically, having followed the polls closely in 2014, I think the Don’t Knows (DK) were moving to YES by 2 to 1. Right up to the VOW which allowed people to take an excuse not to vote YES and vote NO instead. Without the VOW I think the result would have been the other way around, maybe even more YES.
2 to 1 on that survey gives 15% of the DK to YES, 7% to NO, for a 61% YES, 39% NO result.
I could live with that 🙂
Most people just read the first few lines and the last few lines unless it is a subject they are interested in, me on the other hand, as soon as I see the name I just scroll by some people.
A google search just led me to something called John Redwood’s Diary. “Speaking for England”. It looked like satire and I was surprised it could be so blatant. As I began to read I thought, yes satire. A couple of paragraphs later and hadn’t found it funny. Satire should have an element of humour.
Oh shit, that is for real.
All forms of National Independence begin with UDI. UDI is the beginning of the journey towards National Independence.
It begins with the declaration of intent to seek Independence and the progression and direction of that journey is determined by all relevant parties involved.
The ONLY unilateral part of the whole journey is the declaration the rest of the journey concerns itself with getting to the point of agreement by whatever means it takes to get there.
To pnr….
INDEFATIGABILITY……..
Gee I hate that word, ever since gorgeous Georgious Galloway used it
Ca Canny bears , there is still a way to go , remember in wastemonster ALL the establishment know the truth regarding who is subsidising who . Treeza and the jerm are bricking it.
Treeza has to be under eeeeenormous pressure from the old guard and old money to get the fcuk out of the EU before the new TAX laws take effect , yet she has to balance that by knowing if we jocks LEAVE the UK she will lose the finances that enables the uk to survive .
How then does she explain to the bankrupted and poor people of england , Wales and NI that she had to protect the old rich guard whilst losing Scotland’s vast resources .
That is why she continues to kick the can down the road ,she is desperate for Nicola to show her hand to enable her to circumvent by ANY means an indy vote
But I agree wholeheartedly with Breeks , Nicola or the article 50 revocation group should place a motion before the ECJ to solidify the Scottish Governments right to carry out the INSTRUCTIONS of the sovereign peoples of Scotland
I would love it to be 2 to 1 in favour of independence
The biggest celebration in Scotland EVER would follow
@shiregirl
Why ask when the answer is as obvious as the fact you know the answer already.
Mike says
‘Experts, what experts’ Check out ‘Exiting the EU Select Committee, BBC Parliament, 19th. Dec. Bring popcorn, it lasts over 2 hours. Well worth it though.
This link from the Rev’s twitter is an excellent view on what leaving the EU might mean for Independence in Scotland. It is much more than that actually and this journalist at least was switched on coming as it does from 2013.
Think about that, this was 2013 and in light of subsequent events looks like genius for a journalist. Not many of them about LOL
This is where Britain’s relationship with Europe is critical. A referendum that took the UK out of the EU would transform the argument in Scotland. Pro-union Scots would think again were England to detach itself from its own continent.
The whole article is definitely worth reading.
link to archive.fo
Folks:
ALL OF YOU, READ CRAIG MURRAY’S REPORT. It is the most important document and can lead to independence.
@ Breeks 4:04pm
Nail – Head
Amen to that.
@Breeks
Newsflash mate you’ve been promoting UDI on these pages for years. The present campaign for Independence in Scotland began with UDI if Westminster refuses to entertain any democratic means to obtain Independence what do you think will be the normal progression of that campaign? Acceptance? Really?
Mike says:
1 January, 2019 at 1:41 pm
geeo
Every Independent state who took their Independence from Westminster literally did it via UDI. Kind of makes you look like an imbecile eh?
———————————————————————
No Mike it doesan’t make geeo look like an imbecile you just don’t fucking get it do you,
UDI is for countries who are colonized by another country, we are not a colonized country (even though we may be treated like one) we are an equal partner in a union regardless of what David Mundell says therefore to declare UDI would be to declare and accept we are a colonized country.
We dissolve the union as is our right as an equal partner in what’s turned out to be a very unequal union
@ Wull 2 3.07pm I agree wull2 when the treeza shit deal vote is announced it would create an absolute stushie and would be broadcast ALL over the world if Ian Blackford and crew stood up and announced , that due to the overwhelming vote of the sovereign people of Scotland , Scotland will NOT be leaving the EU and walked out en masse.
The press would HAVE to broadcast it even the bbc and itv, it might even lead to the english people demanding that these uppity subsidised jocks are THROWN out of the wonderful uk
Thanks for the FT article reference, the PNR. Considering it was written in 2013, the author shows extraordinary foresight. I just hope he’s right about Scotland leaving the UK if the UK leaves the EU.
@Graeme
I think Brexit has removed all doubts and arguments with regards to the equality of the constitutional parts of the UK.
I said it above there is reality and there is the perception of reality the UK doesn’t do reality.
Had a frustrating conversation with my brother in law on Thursday night , last week.
He was a NO , Leave voter.
it started with him asking what I thought of all this Brexit mess.
I thought , for a second, that he was perhaps beginning to move to Yes as he has hinted that he thinks Scotland probably could survive as an Independent country – but no. He hasn’t budged one inch,.
In fact, he thought Brexit could be moving along a lot better if Nicola Sturgeon would stop ‘putting her oar’ in every chance she gets and just fall in behind ‘the government’ after all, you have to feel really sorry for Theresa May just now. How can anyone put up with that amount of criticism.
I did try and explain that maybe the criticism was warranted, that this is the most useless government ever, Nicola is acting in the best interests of Scotland as a whole country, unlike May who is acting on party interests … but got nowhere – so we agreed to differ and wondered how two people experiencing the same situation could have such vastly different opinions of how it is panning out.
Thankfully his children and their partners are all strongly Pro indy so he is in a minority in his family, but my sister living in East Grinstead cannot understand why Scotland wants to stay in Europe. My other sister is fed up with politics and her husband thinks that the SNP have ruined the fishing industry in Scotland. ( but his 4 children and partners are also strongly Pro-Indy so he’s out numbered too)
A lot of subtle work needed in this family – but there again, maybe the fast approaching Brexit deadline will force them to think again.
OT – RSI
I’m posting this as a warning to youse all!
Right, I’m going to be forced to take a break mostly from the keyboard for a week, same as has happened before. In the wee small hours I updated my websites, something I do every year, changing the copyright on every webpage to make it look fresh and looked after, and also turning over card expiry year on order pages, and in the programs (scripts) I generate error pages or acknowledgemsnts. It took 3 hours, and this year unfortunately I kept going and did it in a oner, ignoring for some stupid reason the small aches in fingers and arm.
So getting up this afternoon, elbow sore as hell, just above the wrist sore and both a bit burny, pinkie and right ring finger a bit numb, plus unusually the middle finger on right hand (I use left for mouse even though right-handed), and hand quite cold.
I got RSI in around 2000 meaning I had to pack in what I previously did for money, and have learned the warning signs and what to do about it. If you can and notice the symptoms, stop and leave for 24 hours. But if it gets as bad as mine has, stay off the computer, games, piano for a week solid, even if it feels better after a day or two. I nearly lost the use of my pinkie and ring finger, only because I don’t take NO for an answer (Indy style), did I manage to force my way through to a physio before 3 months. I couldn’t even hold a pencil between pinkie and ring finger! That’s the exercise by the way, if you get similar RSI. DON’T favour it and rest the hand. After 24 hours, you need to keep it exercised in moderation.
I had to do a lot of scrubbing before Xmas, think it strained the writs and arm and weakened it. It’s often a combination that sets it off. Didn;t have heating for a year (couldn’t afford a new boiler at the time), got it in just before Xmas, so with little heat fpor a year in most parts of the house, there was black mould to sterilise and bleach off – and scrubbing!
Have a Happpy New Year!
@MorvenM
It’s a long read but there are so many gems there. This guy knew exactly what he was talking about.
I think he got it bang on.
link to archive.fo
Philip Maughan
You didn’t answer the question I posed though so have another go what makes these people experts in the event of the UK leaving the EU? What qualifications and experience to the boast in this subject?
@William Wallace
You’ve changed your avatar in the last 10 minutes unless I’m mistaken lol. Happy New one to you by the way.
Mike says:
1 January, 2019 at 5:35 pm
@Graeme
“I think Brexit has removed all doubts and arguments with regards to the equality of the constitutional parts of the UK.”
———————————————————————
I agree 100%
———————————————————————
“I said it above there is reality and there is the perception of reality the UK doesn’t do reality.”
———————————————————————-
But UDI only adds weight to the UK’s version of reality we are a sovereign nation it’s time we started thinking like one
Graeme
We dissolve the union as is our right as an equal partner in what’s turned out to be a very unequal union
Well and good but what happens when that right is denied to us? What if the ONLY answer we ever get is “Now is not the time”?
Dr Jim
Well done with your converting I have managed three in the last year, including a wasp chewer, which I was very pleased about, took ages.
I have a few others where the seed is planted but more work required.
I agree with you regarding old Phillip he and Betty should be very worried a decent distraction is urgently required to get people’s attention off the mess which is Tory and Labour Westminster.
Said it before and wont apologise for repeating myself we all only need to convert one to YES. Just one.
the wm gov is holding the hoc to ransom. liam fox has said on record that they wont allow mps to vote on treezas deal if they believe it will get voted down.
the threat is to continue to do this until 29/03 at which point the uk will fall out of the eu with no deal.
but just who exactly is treeza threatening? the dup? hardly, they loath the deal and prefer no deal, as do the erg of tories, (mogg etc) so neither of these groups will do anything to change this direction of travel. (see rees mogg fundraising for the dup last night un belfast)
treeza can do nothing either, if she were to call a ge, she and the other pro remain supporters of her deal, would get deselected as candidates by the rank and file tory party members (most of whom favour no deal)
thing is, even if treeza convinces the left of her party (anna soubrey etc) to back her deal, that wont be enough to change the present direction of travel.
the snp/plaid nor the greens will support her deal. 1 libdem has said he will vote for it. but the reality is, enough labour mps need to support treezas deal to overturn the dup/erg vote,
that is a lot of number crunching for the whips to do but im fairly certain there isnt enough support in the hoc for treeza to pass her deal.
so the present direction of travel will continue.
the only way with any real chance of changing direction is if enough tories cross the floor and vote with the opposition in a vonc.
they would immediately get kicked out of the tory party and treezas deal would also die the death, her replacement would back no deal in the tory manifesto
time is running out as i believe that after a vonc, 14 days must pass before parlaiment can be dissolved. the minimum time for a ge is 25 working days and 6 week end days
How to get there from here though?
May really has little left to lose. Between a likely hard Brexit and a threatened no Brexit is some god awful compromise doubtless involving several big hoofs of can kicking that she will probably (and shamelessly) call a success.
NS, on the other hand, has it all to lose. It’s almost certain there won’t be an obvious moment to strike. Anybody (and unfortunately I’ll have to include the Rev here) who believes there is going to be a sudden moment of clarity in this mess is thinking wishfully not realistically.
NS is waiting for a moment that will probably never come and she will have to break cover at some point, flushed by threats of wavering support in the SNP ranks from those losing their nerve. At that moment she (and the fate of indy) will be at the mercy of uncontrollable events and the entire indy cause could be thrust forward or swept away at a moment’s notice.
What is absolutely certain is that indy will not be handed to us on a plate. Sitting back and doing nothing will achieve nothing. But doing something risks everything.
No wonder we’re all nervous.
@Mike I’m curious about your rather unusual definition of UDI. To take the example of Austria, can you tell us what form their alleged UDI took, and also what date? To be more precise, did they do it prior to Federation in 1901, prior to the Balfour Declaration of 1926, prior to the Statute of Westminster Act 1931, prior to the Statute of Westminster Adoption Act 1942 or prior to the Australia Act 1986?
I’d also like to learn how you’d square the remarks of the then New Zealand PM George Forbes who said “New Zealand has not, in any great measure, been concerned with the recent development in the constitutional relations between the members of the British Commonwealth of Nations. We have felt that at all times within recent years we have had ample scope for our national aspirations and ample freedom to carry out in their entirety such measures as have seemed to us desirable.”. Rather hard to match that up against the idea of NZ taking their independence via unilateral means.
@Graeme
Who’s this we? The converted already believe and understand the constitutional reality of the UK its those who don’t or wont accept the reality that’s holding us back because they have a perceived reality to hold onto instead one that is promoted as reality daily.
I feel like Im going around in circles here.
@Not convinced
Im not a historian or pupil of Austrian history you might as well ask me what flavour of cheese can be found on the dark side of the moon.
Socrates MacSporran
The Establishment are split on Brexit. Anti-democratic, populist, majoritarian, Neo-liberals support it, and those likely to lose-out economically oppose it. Simples.
link to ox.ac.uk
link to papers.ssrn.com
link to instituteforgovernment.org.uk
That’s unkind. I must remember the Establishment aren’t all lizards. 😉
@Not Convinced
Im not sure how you square the opinions of one person as a definitive argument? How does that work?
@Essexexile
There will always be a “moment of clarity” once the fog has cleared. I’m sure someone else has already stated the same.
CameronB Brodie
You seem to be really struggling to understand the concept of what a NO DEAL is.
Think of it in terms of NO AGREEMENTS ON ANTHING AT ALL that should help.
@ PNR
Aye – changed it. New Year – New me.
All the best to you and those you love for 2019. As Stu says it’s about to get very interesting indeed now that the can has ran out of road.
Cannae wait. Bring it on. Scotland is ready. 🙂
Sorry to hear about your problems yesindyref2. Have a good rest, be prudent, take all the time necessary and get well soon. Welcome back when everything’s OK and you are fit and well again. Awrrrabest …
Mike says:
1 January, 2019 at 5:27 pm
@Breeks
Newsflash mate you’ve been promoting UDI on these pages for years….
Sorry Mike, you’re not correct.
From the outset, I have been advocating Scottish Independence through the Constitutional route whereby Scotland’s Sovereignty is recognised as extant, and Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty discredited as unconstitutional and false.
That is NOT a UDI creating a new Sovereignty, it is merely securing recognition of our existing sovereignty. That might seem like a small difference, but in truth, the two options are a world apart.
It’s funny how no matter how new the trolls are, most Wingers just scroll right on by.
Yes indyref2
I sympathise – take it easy. I had a similar experience about 4 years back when selling my house. I was determined to get the glass oven door clean and spent far too long scrubbing and scraping hard against the glass as I had a deadline to meet.
Result both thumbs seized up – I couldn’t close my thumbs into my open palm – and I had 6 months of physio to return them to some sort of use. Hugely better now but still a twinge now and again if I overdo things. So rule of thumb for 2019 ( no pun intended) be careful folks and don’t overdo things unless it’s for Indy!
I see Mundell is wanting us to compromise in 2019 (I think that is just a euphemism for do as London tells you). I have already compromised, I wanted an independence vote in 2017, but I’ve agreed that 2019 will be fine.
Mike
I know what a no deal means, trauma, dislocation and marginalisation, and I’m trying to bring some of the social and democratic consequences to wider attention. This is generally not the intention of our corporate media. Can you put your finger on what you think I struggling with?
@Breeks
Unless you believe Scotland to be constitutionally Independent now then any and ALL campaigns that advocate the promotion of Independence from a NON Independent constitutional state begins with UDI because if the initial declaration is not unilateral then its a reached agreement in principle Independence has been achieved and no campaign is necessary.
Is that what you think happened?
Schrodingers cat
so a VONC in the government on the 7th of February, followed by 14 days grace until Parliament can be dissolved on the 21st Feb , followed by a G. Election on Thursday 28th March is the absolute limit for time schedule.
That would give the new Govrnment approximately 22 hours to get over to Brussels and cancel or extend Article 50.
Sounds a bit tight but not impossible.
Oh well, Cabinet back tomorrow so it will all kick off again shortly.
CameronB Brodie
Perhaps is me whos struggling to comprehend why somebody would openly promote the concept of a Brexit where deals are reached through a no deal exit.
Oh Lordy yesindyref2, you’ve really been through it! Rest up and all the best for a speedy recovery.
I had something similar with tennis elbow years back that got so bad I had to change career.
Keep warm and take it easy. You’ll be flag waving with the rest of us on indy day!
@William Wallace
Cheers for the good wishes. I basically love everyone until they give me a reason to think otherwise. People are usually good but not all people are good. It’s my default position though to believe that the majority have good intentions as that’s how I’m made.
Doesn’t take long though to change that view, as all I need is information and usually on here at least that comes from the posters themselves. I’m pretty sure we all do the same and make our judgements and form our opinion of others views from what they post.
Good guy, wank, wank, good guy, good guy, wank, wank, wank.
Does anybody believe that Ireland India South Africa Kenya and the USA began their UDI campaign on a war footing? Or do we believe that it began as a declaration of intent to seek Independence through diplomatic channels?
62% voted to remain…this support has not diminished…WM cannot reconcile England’s choice with Scotland’s choice. Teresa May is speaking to England when she talks of ‘unity’.
It doesn’t get any more stark than this, all in the timing now. Middle road for Nic was cu plus sm. That fails Indy2 dead cert.
Newsflash: that is/will/has failing/fail/failed.
There are people that come and clear cookers & ovens. £30-£50? Saves damage to the physic.
I see London Labour mini apparatchik in Scotland, Ms Dugdale, is out and about again. I’ve been reliably informed her New Year resolution is to procure a place on Strictly Come Dancing, were she intends to promote Labour values through the medium of dance.
Apparently she has imagineered new dances for the series, the food-bank jive, the Holyrood quickstep, the PFI Charleston and many more.
This latest one is a wee bouncy ball eh? Lol
May the most absolutely, non compromising, dogmatic, zealot person on the planet. Who is determined to get her way to ruin the world economy. Wants other to compromise. Mundell is just the lapdog. Incompetent beyond useless. A liar.
The duck and dive.
It appears Mundells understanding of the principle of compromise is when the Scottish Government gives ground towards the Conservative position while the Conservatives stay exactly where they are.
In terms of perceived reality this will be headline news in the UK media presented along the lines of how uncompromising the Scottish Government is being in not shifting.
Mike
Me, promote Brexit? There goes your credibility as a critical commentator. Do you have lizard DNA or are you simply following orders?
CameronB Brodie
Why would my credibility suffer as a result of your inability to post what you mean?
The Tory/unionists waiting to get their P45’s. They are so scared they want to avoid a Commons vote at all cost. After all the slaving nonsense about taking back control of Democracy. Cowards. Running around in circles trying to avoid it at every opportunity. C’mon with the vote. Everyone is waiting in anticipation. Folk can’t wait to see the Tories taken down. They are so scared of it they won’t hold it.
May couldn’t bribe Nicola. Unlike the DUP. Redman the arch Brexiteer been at it for 40 years. A knighthood. What a joke. It took Thatcher down. Deja Vu.
@ PNR
I agree to a large extent but, sometimes what people say online can be misinterpreted or misconstrued. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt – at least until I’ve met them in person.
People on here for example can post utter bollocks when they have had a few and maybe even come across as a bit of a dick but, when encountered in the real world, they are larger than life and the salt of the earth.
I never rush to judgement. Even when I am playing the fool (or being a drunken one) – I am most observant. I like to watch how people treat others for a better measure of what that person is really all about.
To that end, I have learned a lot about many of the posters here. By and large it is made up of decent, passionate, creative, intelligent and forward thinking people and even if I don’t contribute often, I do enjoy visiting and learning in this space from many of the excellent contributors (yourself included).
My sincerest wish for 2019 however – is that this space is no longer required.
Can Can Can’t 😉
link to youtube.com
Mike’s a lizard. Now confirmed.
Scroll on by.
Aye, Right.
‘Mike’.
Tool.
Running dog lackey of the Yoonwazee
Meg merrilees
the saddest thing about the present situation is that the only people who can realistically alter the present direction of travel are tory mps
Just in case you were wondering how a company with no ships gets a ferry contract from the Tory Government.
It helps if you share an address with a law firm who has this guy as a director.
link to theconservativefoundation.co.uk
The old wilderness of mirrors.
Anyone know if Cactus has survived Hogmanay?
@Wull Meg Exile
Thanks. I ignored the warning signs, tingling in fingers, a bit coldness in hand. Stupidity! Pinkie and ring are wrist, middle – elbow apparently. Yet some stupid RSI support number and a southern general “specialist” said back in 2000 there’s no such thing as RSI it’s carpal tunnel or tennis elbow. It took an Indian at Inverclyde to tell it the way it is.
Well, dicks, for me it’s caused by repetitive actions, it causes a strain and its an injury, and for me, it’s both wrist and elbow, you dicks 🙂
Got my elbow and wrist supports on now, too late, feels a bit better, don’t like to take painkillers it’s often the body’s way of telling you “take it easy pal”. I intend to 😎 Maybe at last a New Year drink or three …
schrodingers cat says:
1 January, 2019 at 7:01 pm
Meg merrilees
It’s crap isn’t it?? Up here in moray we are stuck with Ross. I bumped into Richard Lochead the other day and his enthusiasim struck me. He is a good guy and does so much up here. So, as I head into a new NHS job in the new year, I’m full of enthusiasism and I know things are changing up here. It’s allgood.
According to Tony Benn Diaries. Phil the Greek supported Scottish Independence in 1968. Most folk in the rest of the UK do not give a damn. If Scotland was Independent they would not be bother at all. It is the Westminster unionists who keep on hanging on. For most folk in the rest of the UK they are not in the least interested. It is the Westminster unionist Parties and the unionist Press who have a problem with it.
Mike says:
1 January, 2019 at 5:49 pm
Graeme
We dissolve the union as is our right as an equal partner in what’s turned out to be a very unequal union
Well and good but what happens when that right is denied to us? What if the ONLY answer we ever get is “Now is not the time”?
—————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Mike you’re talking like a colonial, they cannot deny us anything, you need to stop thinking that they can, all we need to do is take it but first we need to convince enough of our fellow Scots to join us, we failed to do that in 2014.
“If a woman was filing for divorce from an abusive husband she doesn’t have to prove or declare she’s an equal human being she only has to say she wants a divorce.
How many of these countries you talk about that declared UDI signed a treaty of union with England ?”
Yorkshire could declare UDI are you saying we have the same constitutional status as an English county like Caroline Nokes suggested when she said she wouldn’t grant Scotland any more than she would Lincolnshire County Council
Theresa May or the British establishment is not in a position to deny us anything our problem is with the 55% of proud Scots who agreed with Caroline Nokes in 2014
David P at 3.51
Yes. But the UDI was to prevent the UK handing power to the native Rhodesians which was in process and that was why it was judged illegal.
History’s judgement on the white supremacists who called UDI was harsh and well deserved. Instead of remaining in possession of lots of their privilege, power and their lands and farms under moderate native political government they had a civil war and lost the lot and got Mugabe.
@Dave McEwan Hill
At least in Scotland we had a democratic vote. We’ve got May though as Prime Minister. Lees than 25% voted for her so work that one out. It doesn’t need to be this way, we can be better.
link to youtube.com
@Graeme
Understanding how the concept of colonialism works doesn’t make me a colonial it makes me a realist.
How many times has the UK state denied the democratic mandate of states under its control? States worth far less to it than Scotland. The UK state has had to be forced to let go of every single state its had under its control through various degrees of pressure and resistance to its imposed will.
Do you honestly think they will treat Scotland different? We had an AGREED referendum in 2014 ONLY because the UK state rightfully believed they would win it we will ONLY get that agreement again IF they believe they have NO CHANCE of losing.
If the UK state believes it will lose Indyref 2 they will do everything in the power to ever prevent it happening.
That’s a cold hard fact of reality right there.
link to theyworkforyou.com
Caroline Nokes almost always voted against transferring more powers to the Scottish Parliament.
Enough said. Another establishment tool.
…she has infact voted against near enough all Scottish devolved votes…i.e. to pay a carers benefit to those under 16 or in gainful employment, or in full time education.
What utter scum.
Lets here it for Caroline!!
There is I judge a vast difference between 2013 and 2019
In 2013 it was 30% for independence,50% against independence and 20% don’t know.
Now it is around 50% for independence, 30% against independence and 20% don’t know.
It is actually quite difficult to lose from such a position. We only need a few percent of the “don’t knows”.
A high profile campaign based on national pride,national self respect and vision wins it for us.
They need the lot of “don’t knows” and more. They know it.
Hello Mike et al.
Bloody Brexit can bugger off and as our departure from this unequal union approaches ,well!
REAL POLITiK kicks in.
And as the sun slowly sinks in the west the comparable nation of Scotland strides confidently back into the normal world.
Mike says:
1 January, 2019 at 7:39 pm
@Graeme
Understanding how the concept of colonialism works doesn’t make me a colonial it makes me a realist.
———————————————————————
Ok Mike fair enough you win, lets all just accept your version of reality and just give up on the silly notion that Scotland is a nation in it’s own right and get back on our knees where we belong
@Mike
You’ve made your views pretty well known so far today. Just for me though will you explain how your version of UDI is to work?
The Scottish Government just sate UDI and then nothing else happens. I’m being daft here eh would be interesting though to hear your view of what might happen after such a declaration.
I have my own views and they’re not very pretty unless there was a majority in favour of Independence.
If we ever do get Independence then why would we need UDI if a majority were in favour of it in the first place and simply voting for it would guarantee it?
Until the majority of Scots want Independence then we will not be Independent. That’s not a difficult concept to get your head around, simply a fact.
Fuck right off with your fantasy UDI’s ect ect.
The simple truth is we need the support of the people of Scotland before we will become Independent. The NO voters are the people of Scotland also. Swallow that dose of reality.
Answer me that.
My argument is unclear? I’m a twat in a flat with no social capital, so I defer to academic insight and institutional credibility. Unfortunately, this approach depends on the cooperation of readers to actually read the material I post. Also, their ability to comprehend and make rational judgements.
The Establishment is divided over Brexit.
1. support for Brexit is largely from elite, right-wing, xenophobes and poorly educated ‘left-behind’ who tend to identify strongly as “English only”.
3. Establishment opposition to Brexit comes largely from the City of London, who are also split over Brexit. Academic opposition is largely ignored by the media, so does not generally reach the public.
8. the authoritarian English nationalism that Brexit articulates, is a threat to the liberty of English residents, not just Scots.
eleventysomething. Whitehall and business need more time to prepare for the legal and administrative complexities of Brexit. Our democratic traditions and standard of living will all suffer, regardless.
Scotland will either allow England’s post-colonial malaise to deal our culture and democracy a crippling blow, or we won’t.
At long last.
Our time is almost here.
Thepnr that i’ll be the Mike Cassidy who’s been trying to post his Udi shite on Yes pages for month’s & when ma fingers oan the button his shite gets Deleted same with anyone else who tries posting , no preamble no discussion just DELETE .
Wingers at the risk of my words falling on deef ears , the Britnat Trolls have only one aim on Wings & that is to cause disruption & spread disinformation DONT ENGAGE .
@Thepnr
I don’t have a version of UDI as far as I know there are no versions of UDI just UDI. For Unilateral declaration of Independence read Unilateral Declaration of Intent.
It explains itself.
A UDI has been declared in Scotland by a movement that is actively pursuing National Independence through a campaign. so far that campaign has used the Democratic process because a Democratic process is open and available and will be right up to the point where the chance of Independence becomes real then it will disappear leaving the campaign having to seek other avenues to progress the desired outcome.
Is this process not familiar in anyway say throughout history? Especially involving the UK state?
Cameron B Brodie
See that post was much clearer and articulated in a way that it couldn’t be interpreted as denying the concept of what a No deal outcome means. Shame about the previous effort.
@ronnie anderson
Noted but I don’t give a shite who it is. I’m arguing against his point and not who he is.
We can declare UDI when it’s proven that the MAJORITY of Scots support Independence and it’s refused by Westminster.
Fuck them then and it just won’t happen. Meantime our job is to persuade one person at a time, never give up and never give in.
Get in there with the head down, we’ve a battle to win.
Aye, Ronnie – how many times does it need said? The Rev’s guidance is on the “About us” tab at the top of the page in the “Etiquette” section, part 2. “If you think someone is a troll…DON’T ENGAGE”.
It is tedious to read and to scroll past these comments. If they don’t get a rise we will all be happier.
On another subject, yesterday I asked about the chances of using the Recall of MPs Act. From the deafening silence, I take it there is no chance?
Huh! Who knew?
link to archive.fo
“read Unilateral Declaration of Intent.”
Pathetic, change the meaning of UDI to suit you own argument.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
1 January, 2019 at 7:29 pm
Thanks for the clarification about Rhodesia… I knew there was some kind of funny business, and in retrospect, I should have remembered this – even though I was only a wee kid in the 1970s, as the ramifications unwinded.
But is does go to show just how rare Unilateral Declarations of Independence actually are…and the kind of circumstances in which it is called.
In summary, only under the most extreme cases!
Sarah That will be something to be address’d in a Independent Scotland & written into a constitution
Also under who knew(?).
link to independent.co.uk
(Can’t archive this one, but worth the read)
The international treatment of Rhodesia’s UDI might be better seen as a lesson to Westminster rather than a warning to Holyrood.
Specifically it’s about a colonial administration controlling a state against the wishes of the majority. Every time the, mainly Tory, MPs and MSPs state the 2014 result as a reason to ignore the wishes of Scots now they set the scene for the rUK facing international sanctions at a time they can least afford them.
If it comes to an advisory only referendum being in favour of independence then the unionist minority parties would in effect be imposing their will on the majority with the remnants of one of the largest empires in history backing them. A tactic employed in building that empire in the first place.
However it might be best to change the question next time to…
“Should Scotland and her elected representatives withdraw from the 1707 Treaty of Union and resume its previous status as a separate state within the international community?”
@Macart: do you think this will appear in the print version of the P&J? It was put online at 00.57 this morning!! Who was looking then? Judging by the fact that there are NO comments, it hasn’t been seen by many folk.
I’m just amazed that it has appeared at all on P&J site. It would certainly give their readership food for thought – money taken from Badenoch to boost Tory support in London seats. Wow.
Terence callachan @ 4.56 pm
The margin of the win will not be huge because of the 800,000 English people living in Scotland who will mostly vote against Scottish independence
You consistently repeat the figure of 800,000 English people living in Scotland.
Pray, let us know exactly where you get this statistic from.
From what I can see, the last Census in 2011 showed that, from a total population of Scotland of 5,295,403, only 459,486 (8.68%) declared England as their place of birth.
If we go forward to 2014, the total number of voters registered to vote in INDY1 was 4,283,392. By extrapolation, 8.68% of the electorate would give 371,798 registered English voters.
However, according to the BBC (Aug. 2014) there were 422,386 English people eligible to vote in INDY1(9.81% of the electorate).
link to bbc.co.uk
According to the Daily Mail, at about the same time, in one of their usual sensational Unionist rants, there were 477,000 English people in Scotland.
So, unless there has been a sudden influx of about 340,000 English born people in the last 4 years, your figure of 800,000 does not stand up to scrutiny, never mind credence.
DMH @7.54pm
Post of the day imo.
Its like 2 footie teams with 2 games to go and one is 6 points behind the other, but the team at the top has a better goal difference of say, 25 goals.
Technically, the team in 2nd can still win the league, but it would require the greatest miracle since biblical times to achieve it.
Even if indy support is 50 yes, 45 No and 5% DK, No STILL need all the DK’s.
As you say, game over as that aint going to happen, no matter how much they dream of a miracle.
@Tom Busza
Anything TC says is best taken with a pinch of salt. He’e been told more times than I have fingers and toes how wrong he is.
I’ll put money on it though that he’ll still spout the same shite tomorrow. It’s all they have to comfort themselves. Fucking LIES.
@Sarah
Pretty much. Way I see it, our job, (when we find such gems), is to get them out there on the indyweb and get them noticed to a wider audience.
Also? Yes. Yes they’ve always been like that. A Tory’s first point of of loyalty is themselves, closely followed by their party. The population comes appears to come some way down their to do list.
It’s who and what they are. Coming right up to the present. The follow up link I’ve just posted underlines that other side of the fag paper thing in UK politics.
The party. The practice of politics. The winning. They’ve all taken precedence over service to the populations of the UK. Thing is, they haven’t forgotten what they were for. The parties wilfully work the system for their own ends. We’re just the poor sods who underwrite their idiocies, their atrocities and their venality with our votes.
Hopefully not for too much longer. 😎
@Thepnr
You’re actually denying the FACT that a Universal Declaration of Independence is a Universal Declaration of Intent?
I thought it was only yoons who had the need to deny reality.
@Ronnie 8.41: the Recall Act already applies to Westminster. I was hoping there might be a way that it could be used to do something very helpful right now!
@Macart: yes, you’re right about our job being to spread the word.
The trouble with the standards of ethics in Westminster politics [and in local authorities too] is that the only defence for the voter is if there is some ethical party or person to vote for AND for the truth about the main parties to be made available.
Journalists nowadays don’t seem to do that job of informing their readers. Even in relatively recent times some papers would go to great lengths to uncover the truth e.g. a Guardian journalist spending ages in the basement of an hotel in Switzerland going through the records to prove that Jonathan Aitken Tory MP was where he was swearing on oath [“taking the simple sword of truth against bent and twisted journalism”] he was NOT. Result: time in gaol for Aitken.
@Mike
You have lost any credibility you might have had. I’m no longer interested in what you have to say as your arguments are all bullshit, can’t be bothered with those that waste my time.
You are a time waster for sure and you won’t be wasting mine 🙂
Have a good New Year by the way.
So, in case nobody thought to google it….
Universal Declaration of INTENT (Todays entirely made up renaming of UDI) ONLY returns search results pertaining to Human rights charters and there are zero search results for UDof Intent in relation to independence.
Imagine my utter surprise at this baffling revelation.
Seems you can just invent stuff and it becomes true, sooooo….i have decided i am a unicorn called clarence, and dah daaa…i am now a unicorn, come fly over my rainbow ….woohoo…!!!
Sarah yes im aware of that but I fail to see how that would help our cause of Independence .
Mike = boak
I’ve been recovering today but have continued to dip in.
I don’t think I have seen so much $h!te posted in so short a time, as been posted today.
Y’all know who has been postin’ the %h!t€ so why have intercourse with them?
Happy new year to y’all.
Geeo
Ok well how about Unilateral Declaration of Independence is that not the same as a Unilateral Declaration of Intent or does Google tell you its also a Human Right?
link to bing.com
Here’s to the Queen, sir!
Ye ken wha I mean, sir;
And to every honest man,
?That will do’t again.
When you hear the trumpet sound
Tuttie taitie, to the drums;
Up wi’ swords and down your guns,
?An’ to the loons again.
…
Make no mistake, this is a war. A war of words, not swords, but a war nonetheless. We must be ready for anything. We are however battle hardened veterans of the last campaign. Older, wiser, wilier. It will be a sair fecht but one we must, and will, win.
There’s an enigmatic carving on a wall near me. “Nothing on airth enduris bot fame”. This is our moment of fame, our moment to be written in to the history books. To be judged forever after by those who follow us long after we have gone.
What a time to be alive!
@Mike
I thought yiu were a wank rather than a good guy and now you have proven it so. LOL.#
Your link about the “Universal Declaration of Intent (sic)” gives this:
Intent my arse, you need to wake up and get a grip of reality.
This is worth digestion by everyone on all sides, shouting about UDI.
UDI definition is clear as day, even a British Nationalist could understand it. No mention of the word ‘intent’ anywhere.
……..
Unilateral declaration of independence
A unilateral declaration of independence is a formal process leading to the establishment of a new state by a subnational entity which declares itself independent and sovereign without a formal agreement with the national state from which it is seceding.
……….
Oops, how inconvenient.
She ran down the stairs and out of the building. Her head buzzing. Now, now was the time.
Everyone had thought her an incompetent fool, but that was just a ploy. She had a plan. She knew how to extricate the country from the terrible mess. Many thought that she had created it but it was not her fault. It was the fault of her predecessor, that fool David, he had given into the rabid beer-drinker. He had called for that disastrous vote. She had had to pick up the pieces and now all her plans were ready everything she had planned for the last two years were about to come to fruition.
She ran out into the courtyard where Javid was waiting. Theresa gave the signal. Javid smiled in reply. She looked over; The Royal mounted flying porcine corps were ready to fly.
Hold on….A declaration of Intent is MARRIAGE related….not for a divorce..!!!
Who knew ??? Go Jacob !
link to jacobmarries.com
I opt for Whitney Houston
Wife goes for Dolly Parton
Rev – I will always love you
Any SIU moles out there fancy telling us where/when the Burns Night gigs are being held this year?
😉