The not-so-iron bar
Even Sparta’s mythical iron-bar currency – specifically designed, so legend had it, to shackle the economy by being too heavy to buy or trade anything – was marginally better, in Alistair Darling’s view, than anything an independent Scotland might be able to use for money, all of which will lead to inevitable doom.
Because Scotland, as all good unionists know, is the only country in world history for which there is no currency option that will work at all.
Currency is one of those issues – the wicked issues, as commentator James Maxwell called them – which are inherently uncertain, on which there can be no definitive, pre-referendum answer unless it’s prenegotiated and we’re tied into it. The EU is another. They are subject both to negotiation (and to the democratic will of the Scottish people), and to uncontrollable influences outside Scotland.
It’s reasonable to assume, however, that negotiations will happen in a spirit of magnanimity. People will be looking for the best solution for themselves nationally and for business, with the minimum of disruption. Staying in the EU and sticking with Sterling are, in that respect, clearly the common-sense options.
So lets look at it another way: let’s say the Scottish government wasn’t offering these. Imagine for a moment the White Paper had put forward the proposal to pull out of the EU, and leaving Sterling to start up a new currency. Those positions would have been attacked mercilessly by the No camp and the media, for all the obvious reasons.
Accusations of beggar-thy-neighbour policies towards the rUK would have been thrown at them. Not just independence, angry No campaigners would say, but a spiteful one with no attempt at retaining the social bonds of union. Damaging trade, increasing the rUK’s deficit and foreign currency issues, weakening Sterling, unsettling the markets. The business community would have screamed in horror even more than it already is.
So it’s probably worth remembering that there’s no possible argument for any sort of meaningful change that wouldn’t cause a panic from the people who made all the same dire warnings about devolution, and treating their doom-laden predictions accordingly.
The independence movement in Scotland is not a new one. It’s an ancient, battle-scarred and time-tested one which has prevailed patiently through long campaigns, and has already seen the worst the British state can throw at it. The tactics on the unionist side, being almost entirely reheated from 1979/97, are wholly predictable.
This is perhaps why the SNP government didn’t put forward its currency proposals off its own bat, but instead assembled the Fiscal Commission working group. A heavyweight collection of economic experts including two Nobel Prize winners, it produced an in-depth analysis which considered all options and set out why, in its opinion, a currency union was the best way forward for Scotland and the rUK alike.
Now, if polls are correct, many people in Scotland would still prefer “devo max” to full independence. So it seems reasonable to assume that they’re already happy to cede the amount of sovereignty Westminster would demand for a currency union, and that this may explain their reluctance to panic in the face of the united front from the UK’s present and would-be Chancellors as they bizarrely insist that Scots should vote No because the independence on offer won’t be independent enough.
The Westminster parties did have another option. They could have agreed in principle and opened pre-negotiations. A joint statement could have been produced saying “This is what is proposed by the Scottish Government, and these are the broad terms on which rUK would agree to it. The finer points will be negotiated after a yes vote, and both positions will be ratified by the elections of 2015 and 2016.”
That would have given Westminster a strong negotiating hand. It would have left the option open, had there been significant political pressure against, for either rUK or Scotland to back out after a Yes vote, but it would have been seen to have played fair.
Instead, the No parties opted for the much cruder tactic: use currency as a club to beat the dastardly Nats with. But the danger with swinging a club instead of talking is that if you’re not careful, the club can be snatched away and used against you.
Keeping the pound is not something that either the Unionists or Westminster have any veto over. Scotland can use the pound without a formal currency union for as long as it wishes. Ireland used it that way for 58 years. A succession of independent experts have pointed this out, and a still-unidentified UK government minister let the cat well and truly out of the bag last month.
Not only did the tactic fail in its initial goal of sending terrified Scots flocking towards the No camp, it then backfired horribly. First the people of Scotland were given the impression they were being threatened and bullied (rarely a vote-winner), and then it rapidly became clear they were being lied to as well, in a double-whammy of PR disaster for Alistair Darling and his not-very-merry men.
Meanwhile, the other options remain open. On the Andrew Marr Show recently, the host kept badgering Salmond to make a case against Scotland having its own currency. Wisely, Salmond didn’t bite and made no such case against a Scots pound. The Fiscal Commission, after all, had concluded that “Scotland could choose any of these options and be a successful independent country”.
There can be, and will be, no bar on Scotland using the pound should it choose independence this September. The only people who will ultimately decide what Scotland’s currency will be in 2016 and beyond will be the electorate. Should they, of course, have chosen to give themselves the power to do so.
On “using the pound unofficially”, John Kay is a recent convert to the idea, having been previously skeptical. If you haven’t see Brewer’s interview with him, it’s worth a watch. It’s on Youtube, thanks to Peter Curran. Worth watching right to the end.
Instead of doomed future generations will say “we are darling’d”
Stu, the link to Alex Salmonds speech is up… can we please have it up.
This is important.
I can provide the link if you are having problems.
Warm hearted ultra-unionists might have failed to convince a majority in Scotland they can’t use the pound, but they do appear to have convinced their own hoi palloi it’s a no hoper. In turn they will expect their duly ignorant MPs to follow suit and block a shared currency.
Then again, it’s my contention, an arrangement that leaves the UK Treasury with debt it created is to be preferred to saddling Scotland with a large lump of it, having boasted they rescued Scotland in 1707 from its debt and look how ungrateful we are.
Great day at the Yes Mobile at the AECC and met a bunch of Wings fans – Hi all!
https://twitter.com/X_Sticks_Real/status/455037682691743744/photo/1/large
Going to watch the coverage now – be back later…:D
Here is a list of plans, (in Alpha-numeric order), for the post-referendum Scottish Currency : –
Plans A – M = The Pound Sterling, (in currency Union).
Plans I – Z = The Pound, (not in CU, tied to pound England).
Plans A1 – M13 = The pound, (floation free).
Plans I14 – Z26 = The Pound, (tied to the Euro).
Plans Z26 onwards, The Pound Sterling, (Scottish).
Seems Stu hates Youtube… get yourself sorted mate. Scotlands future is much bigger than you or wings… seems self importance is taking control a bit!
Don’t you just love those unionists and their scare stories. As far as I can remember not one of their “scares” has lasted very long before being shot down in flames, either by the E.U., Westminster’s own finest or independent experts. This latest scare crash is no exception.
Despite the greatest back peddling exercise yet the people are now more than ever convinced that Osborne, Balls and Alexander were lying when they said there would be no currency union. What’s more when they tried to tie this to retaining Trident at Faslane even this scare story has been shot down in flames. It has taken a long time for the penny to drop but drop it finally has and David Mundell has finally and exhaustedly admitted that there will be no negotiation over keeping Trident at Faslane. He has finally accepted that Faslane will be gone from an independent Scotland. 😉
Surely even now at this relatively late stage Better Together MUST recognise that all their lying over the last year or so has been to no avail. With the destruction of the currency union and Trident lies surely now Better Together must finally turn to giving us the positive case for the union, there again maybe I’m being too kind to them. 😛
Great post Cath, the wicked issues are what they have hung their coat on, mind you they now have the forces of darkness weighing against us..
Three female-scribed articles on Wings in one day? Does our apparently misogynistic Master-Controller know about this?
I’ve said before, it’s really great seeing so many women regularly writing and commenting on a political blog that isn’t explicitly about feminist politics. Of course, considering so many of our party leaders and shining lights are women – our deputy first minister and the leaders of two of the three other major “parties”, ferchrissakes – show yet another huge difference between Holyrood and Westminster.
Appealing to your better side… can we please have an embedded link to Alex Salmonds speech?
Like I have said… I tried to post the link, but the site has become so completely unfriendly to Youtube, that no matter what the link contains ‘http’… ‘www’ etc, the post is disgarded.
Alba4Eva – I too need the link 🙁 posted this earlier..
Just after lunch sitting on the edge of my seat awaiting the FM’s speech. The Missus asked what I am doing, I’m waiting on the FM’s speech says I, oh no you’re not says she you are going out to get that grass cut!
First cut so needed strimmed, raked up then mowed so missed the FM’s speech! Then people wonder why I sweer!
Croomenstein, I have the link… just waiting on Stu now.
Do you mean to say that if we had not offered currency sharing
the newspapers and bbc would have been against us ?
how awful
I tried posting earlier today on another article several times, my post just disappears.
I think Alba 4eva maybe the site is compromised? It really is a threat to have intelligent and informative sites like wings amidst all of the utter lies from westminster via the msm.
It is ok we won’t let that get in our way!
Sort out the debt to asset ratio and maybe we’ll find WM owes us quite a few pounds.
Maybe that’ll sort the currency issues..
Alba4Eva. Has Stu told you no links? Or are you being petulant? The site is still under DDOS and in hardware upgrade. Youtube links seem to cause problems in wordpress, as he has said numerous times. Why dont you post as a broken link eg. blah blah at rather than @ or somesuch
@Alba4Eva and hetty
Could be you are making the same mistake I did yesterday trying to post youtube links in Off Topic.
Three posts just disappeared. I now know though that to post a youtube link first remove the “http://” part and the link will post fine. Seems to only apply to youtube and what this measure does is stops it being embedded in the post. Only the link will show which is a good thing in my view.
Have another go, I want to see what it was 🙂
Hmm. Looking at that link, I think it’s pushing it way too far to imply that Willie MacRae was taken out by the British state to hold back the SNP. I don’t think it’s possible to know whether he was murdered or not, and if so who by. But even if it was a political assassination, look at the nuclear industry issues, not the independence movement, for the reason.
Too many “haves” in that last line, Stu.
Hya X-Sticks, good to meet anither few Wingers today.
Motivated me no end getting hold of all the promo material and meeting loads of happy Yessers.
Managed to Yes paper and Aye Write my local village, watch Alexs’ speech at 3 and attend a “BarbecYes” at the neighbours, aw in one fully packed, ultra productive day, fabulous!
Thepnr… this site was and still is all about giving a democratic voice to US, the disenfranchised… we dont get it on the BBC… or the MSM… when we start to lose it here, then that is a big frickin deal.
Just chiming in about youtube. It’s been quite frustrating that links to UK videos on BBC, STV, etc. are not playable in the US. No problems with youtube, though. It’s bad enough hitting the paywall at various newspaper sites.
re – posting stuff, if the link has www in the address delete everything to the left of it, works for me xx
Apologies Alba4Eva, think I was typing while you posted at 7:15.
No idea why it didn’t work then after removing http.
No ‘man walks into a bar’ joke?
Lamont’s big speech
22 March 2014
Scottish Labour Party conference: Lamont lambasts SNP’s pro-Yes campaign
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26692674
No response from the Yes campaign.
Salmond’s big speech
12 April 2014
SNP conference: Salmond attacks ‘negative and depressing’ No campaign
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26997887
Blair McDougall gets the final word.
Alex Salmond’s conference speech:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfHEYMZhrzw
O/T
I spotted a no poster today in someone’s window, a very big house/flat in a well off area to say the least, anyway, the usual vote no to keep the union stuff with nice red, white and blue flag was what caught my eye.
The main message said, ‘who do you think you are kidding mr Salmond?’ Trying to be clever in using a dads army line to attempt to portray A Salmond as a nazi. Time to print out some yes posters to put in our window they are much more informative while not relying on lies and sarcasm.
Getting back on topic because it is an important one. Personally I’m not bothered about a currency union with rUK. It might make sense for both parties but I wouldn’t jump through hoops just to get one.
I am at a loss to understand why Alastair Darling and the rest of his cohorts put so much faith in this silver bullet made from tin.
There are so many other things that Independence can bring and having a shared currency is really near the bottom of the list. One thing for sure though, reading the comments BTL it’s obvious the media has stirred up English people into a frenzy over this issue.
So much so that they really will find it difficult to back down and accept that a currency union is in their own best interests. Probably no currency union then is my guess, who cares? I don’t.
Posting web links – easy guide:
If the web address starts with “www” remove the http:// and WordPress will add it back when the posting is submitted.
If the web address starts with something OTHER than www, e.g. our favourite newscaster which starts with news.bbc, leave the http bit alone and WordPress seems quite happy.
If you leave the http bit in front of a www style address it confuses WordPress no end and incurs the wrath of our glorious leader, probably resulting in a range of sanctions starting with bolts of lightning and then a plague upon your house, followed by casting out into the wilderness.
Otherwise it’s all good 🙂
@Calgacus – nice one Calgacus cheers.
I am whitling like mad!
http://unusualhistoricals.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/money-matter-tally-stick-system.html
News flash. Women are people too.
Skip says:
It’s bad enough hitting the paywall at various newspaper sites.
Hi Skip. The “Eu Citizens for an Independent Scotland” Facebook page posts the texts of complete Herald stories every day. Very handy!
http://www.facebook.com/EuCitizensForAnIndependentScotland
@PNR
they really will find it difficult to back down and accept a currency union is in their own best interests
We have come to the same conclusion.
Thepnr… no hastles to you mate.
I was on Newsnet Scotland when it first started out, likewise here, when I first found this platform… I personally needed this because there was no platform on the Mainstream to cater for my needs… but recently, Stu has been limiting this site and going the same way as all the others (I think that is a huge mistake)… I honestly can’t see a reason for not allowing Youtube videos and such… It was fine for long enough… and indeed, I believe that this freedom it allowed us, got this site to where it is today.
Alex Salmonds Speech today was an incredible moment in this campaign…. and for the video of it not to be available on the very site which is the first port of call now for many folk is simply unacceptable as I have said.
Stu, this is a fight for freedom… Give us some!
Rev, do you think come September your voice will be hoarse with repeating your self ? Cos I know I will be.The amount of people who give you a blank stare when you explain things to them is frightening. Its as if they cant comprehend what you are saying is the truth.
Calgacus, that’s an auld speech.
The full texts of the FM’s and DFM’s speeches are available on the SNP’s website.
You’re way over-reacting. Stu isn’t limiting the site. YouTube videos are allowed, just don’t post them in a way that makes them embed. A dozen people have already explained how.
Also, post off-topic videos in off-topic, because wading through the collected works of various boy bands to get to the actual posts was annoying way more people than it was attracting. How hard is it to follow that simple rule. (And remember to hit return twice between paragraphs!)
Alex’s speech has already been linked to, Stu does not forbid this, calm down dear.
@ Calgacus
Your link takes me to the 2013 speech.
BBC doing the dirty again?
Try this for Alex Salmond’s speech today …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPMcblzMxhM
That’s the boy, Calgacus. Vote of thanks to Moridura for putting it up.
See, no restrictions.
Morag… lots of people post now on Android… iPhones… and other platforms.
I use all, and there are recent limits put on this site to deliberately prevent interaction on those fronts. That is not me overreacting… it is fact.
If you are so sure of your argument Morag, can you please post a link to Alex Salmonds speech today?
Morag Calgacus and Stu… It is obviously technical crap that is causing this, so I appologise… but when I try to post that exact link, the post does not appear.
Ps. I am very computer literate and am not messing about. Whatever is wrong, it needs sorted.
G Campbell
They did that last year too. Unionist speech reported without comment from political opponents but FM’s speech, Blair McDougall is given last word. BBC Unbiased? Is it cocoa. This is the sort of thing that needs to be nailed by those investigating the way the media has behaved in this debate.
It is almost as if the BBC has Better Together on tap for an instant quote..or is it Better Together that has the BBC on instant tap?
Calgacus just did and as a result I’m re-listening to it. Do you want it again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPMcblzMxhM
I use a Nokia Lumia sometimes. It’s less convenient than a PC but Stu isn’t doing things to make it harder on purpose. If you can paste the link in, what’s so hard about deleting the “https://” from the front? That’s all it takes.
Morag, I have tried every which way… it still gets disgarded. I can only state my own experiences.
On the BBC.. others may have noted how the integrity of Panelbase was questioned before the FM speech (Curtice reverting to type at the behest of Andrew Kerr).
Deploy the words ‘button’ and ‘up the back’ with respect to anyone who still pays the licence fee.
Calgacus, Hey nice speech but 333 days to go? Guess that must have been last year, no?
There’s nothing wrong. It’s been explained lots of times. Calm down and read the explanations.
Stu doesn’t want embedded videos in the comments because he was getting a lot of complaints about it. He has set up the comments so that any that contain embedded links don’t get posted. To avoid that, all you do is delete the “https://” bit from the front of the link before you hit “submit”.
That’s how you sort it, it’s nothing Stu has to do.
Morag, to check, I just copied the link and posted it as a check… as you can see, there is no post of it.
Well I only did it the one time, that post right above. I did what I read in a dozen posts explaining how, and it worked perfectly first time.
I copied your link and posted it… WTF are folk to do?
Morag, to check, I just copied the link and posted it as a check… as you can see, there is no post of it.
YOU HAVE TO DELETE EVERYTHING BEFORE WWW. EVERY TIME.
Sorry for shouting, but please read what people are saying to you. If there is no www, just post the link. If there is a www, delete everything in front of it. Every time, no matter where you copied it from.
This only applies to video links, not to ordinary web pages.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPMcblzMxhM
There we go.
Yes I noticed. Absolutely shocking. Panelbase should complain very strongly.
O/T For any that may have missed it, I am hoping to organise another wee Wings gathering in Dundee on Friday 9th May. If you can make it along please let me know over in the Off Topic thread here:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/
Ok Morag. it worked there… but I did that very thing exactly the same before and it just aborted the post.
Weird and who knows.
Happier now though. 🙂
Nice one Alba4Eva, my grass is cut and now I can get the hankies oot and listen to a statesman.
Sorry Stu.
Alba4Eva – success 🙂
For weeping of course, I’m not a teenager any more
(have we finished bashing each other with www iron bars? Because I’d really like to read some more on topic comments)
Spot on Calgacus 🙂
Paula and T Jenny… back on topic… did anyone else feel the gloves come off in Nicola’s and Alex’s speeches?
I felt a fight was being picked… and kinda liked it.
they really will find it difficult to back down and accept a currency union is in their own best interests
That’s the amusing thing. Many people in the indy movement don’t really want one and many more, like me, who did support it have now been put off.
Meanwhile down south it’s backfiring the same way the subsidy junky myth is – people there totally believe it’s a very bad thing now.
If they were bluffing, with the intention of negotiating one if there’s a yes, they’re increasingly looking screwed. Trouble with that is, if there is a yes it’ll be mostly unionists and business types In Scotland that’ll really want one. But they’ll have been arguing against for months and cheering Osborne and Balls veto.
The next few months will be interesting.
I met an official of the Law Society today at the SNP Conference. He agreed that we were in exciting times. He told me his wife was American and had said that Scotland today must be like Phildelphia in 1776.
Truly momentous!
It really all boils down to debts versus assets.
The repeated currency question seems like a decoy.
Some very clever people on here not long ago worked out that our share of the assets roughly wipeds out the so-called debt after independence, hence the idea that Scotland would be making a fresh start with a clean slate re the White Paper.
Dont think WM was too happy about this and went into hissy fit mode and the subsequent currency huff.
Once the asset values have been set against the “obligatory” debts then we should see some sense on the currency.
I understand most of the issues to do with sharing or using a currency – is there any way that Scotland COULD be prevented from using sterling?
Cath… spot on pal.
On a YES vote in September, Scotland will be calling all the shots… Westminster will be forced into backtracking and grovelling to our demands… and one of the best things about it will be that the Socialist north of England will benefit greatly from the reshaping of politics across the island of GB.
@Cath
Isn’t it funny how they will cut off their nose to spite their face. I totally agree with what was said in the article that if the White Paper advocated say a separate currency it would have been held up for ridicule and derision.
I’ve came late to the Independence party and really only made my mind up a year ago. It’s funny though how your mindset can change, Trident for me for example also was a non-issue.
I viewed jobs, welfare, health care etc much more highly. Having immersed myself in the discussions and the arguments though. Trident now for me is an issue, it’s amazing what a little knowledge can do when before it meant nothing.
“I understand most of the issues to do with sharing or using a currency – is there any way that Scotland COULD be prevented from using sterling?”
No. Absolutely none. (Well, short of a war, but that applies to most things.)
@The pnr – Trident now for me is an issue
For me living on the west coast Trident is the issue, I think that Trident is the main issue for the imperialists as quite honestly they don’t give a f*ck for me or my kids they only care about the myth of importance and their standing in the world whatever that may be.
Liked the speech, and the stuff about the campaign being respectful and dignified etc, but…
There is a place for irreverence, satire, arguments, ‘industrial’ language (when appropriate) and temper tantrums. It’s right here.
The delegates in Aberdeen know who we are and what we’re all about. It would be daft of AS, NS, or any platform speakers to mention WOS by name, but they all know how much sway this site now has, and I dare say they’re very very grateful.
Perhaps, post-Yes, when BT has crumbled to dust like Christopher Lee in a Hammer Horror, the SNP will see fit to acknowledge the role played by this and other pro-Indy websites.
cynicalHighlander
You are aware you can’t just pick any stick up and start whiting. 🙂
@Paula Rosa
Short of invasion or other insane* policy from Westminster? None.
The problem with using someone else’s currency comes when you run an external deficit, but that applies no matter what the currency is, and it’s not something Westminster controls.
If Scotland runs the external surpluses that allow it to acquire foreign currency then it can use whatever currency its people/government choose.
*Westminster could ban foreign exchange involving sterling, but that would be a quick way to destroy the rUK economy.
@Croopenstein
I entirely understand that…now.
You will realise though that for others it may be something else, pensions for example with older people. Tuition fees for parents of teenagers. Prescription charges for the chronically ill not on benefits.
Everybody has different issues and priorities, only through Independence I believe will we be able to make them our governments priorities.
As Westminster clearly don’t care about any of these things.
“Instead, the No parties opted for the much cruder tactic: use currency as a club to beat the dastardly Nats with.” or just how stupid does bettertogether, BBC etc think we are? Very very very very stupid.
The vote no untouchable core, strength, clout, safety, security in one of the most unequal, crime ridden, places on the planet called the City of London.
So….. if we use iron bars can we use them to sink the city of London? (smiley thingy)
News flash. Women are people too.
I know, right? In fact, I’ve seen blog posts suggesting they might make up half of all humans! Not sure what the science is, but I’m sure I’ve seen a few women in real life too!
Tory boys are a bit like a Spartan master race eg. new anti Scotland Tory rising star is 44 year old multi millionaire bankster replacing latest Westminster fraudster shamed out of office, eventually http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/11/sajid-javid-a-wonderful-life-banker-culture-minister
“During 20 years in banking, Javid became rich. According to unconfirmed reports, he made up to £3m a year through the years of boom and bust and he now owns a £4m home in Fulham and another worth £2m in Chelsea. He sends his children to private schools” Whoopdeedoo! Or one City spiv plonked into power by Cameron and Osborne. Wonder how that’ll pan out.
@CameronB says:
cynicalHighlander
You are aware you can’t just pick any stick up and start whiting. 🙂
I grow my own.
Did anybody else pick up on Prof Cuntice’s 12% of SNP membership would vote no,? why the f*k are they in the SNP
Red Herrings fae Cuntice.
Ian… I second your sentiments.
@thepnr – You and I want to see a society based on social justice, fairness and a transparent democratic government but make no mistake the imperialists don’t give a flying f*ck for me or my kids they are only interested in their power and that means power over you and I.
Trident for them is the main issue, it gives them the semblance of power and backs up their ‘standing’ in the world. I think we are in for a fight to end this abuse even if we win the ref
Not meaning to be provocative here, but the SNP clearly know where Yes support is weakest and have targeted it brilliantly – any Scottish female who watches AS’s speech and remains ‘undecided’ needs her head examined.
For those of a nervous disposition do not, I repeat do not go looking for the Daily Wail article on the FMs speech. My other half was dozing happily on the sofa and the next thing he knew he was being scraped off the ceiling due to my reaction to this pile of doggy doo! Say no more.
@Morag
Glad you noticed the casual defamation of Panelbase Morag – all the more so as the BBC used Alan Cochrane as the guarantor of the ‘unreliability’ of Panelbase.
A disgraceful calumny which the BBC thought they could slip in under the radar. And Scotland’s only pollster – the man who claimed the Panelbase poll pre 2011 showing the SNP ahead was ‘rogue’ – went along with the calumny to the max.
Let’s hear no more about the ‘impartiality’ of Prof John Curtice.
I know you know. It’s just that lines like “gosh look, there are three articles by women today, how amazing” tend to bring out the extremely deeply buried feminist in me.
Or would anyone remark, “gosh look, there are three articles by men today, how amazing”?
@Paula Rose (apologies)
If only it were that easy. The City will continue to make out like bandits – both figuratively and literally – as long as they are supported by the British establishment and the political classes in Westminster.
An independent Scotland might just contribute to sinking neoliberalism though, if it can provide a functioning example of an alternative. The constant repeating of TINA will eventually fail if the people of England can just look north of the border and actually see TFA.
Let’s hear no more about the ‘impartiality’ of Prof John Curtice.
No, he didn’t seem impartial to me today, I have to say. Although maybe I’m on a hair-trigger.
I do get sick of him always being on. Can’t we hear from someone else for a change? James Mitchell is better looking anyway.
I posted a link months back, to a Huffington Post article in which Prof John Curtice used “we” in relation to the unionist cause.
Sorry I didn’t keep the link.
@Ianbrotherhood, Alex Salmond Nicola Sturgion acknowleged some months ago that this Yes campain has taken legs and walked on its own, by people like us neither the Yes/nor Snp have direct control,and that for me is how I like it,ordinary people putting in the time effort & money,we recognize this sites contrabution & it will play a major part after the 18th Sept & beyond.
Good to read via the Daily Mail that Will & Kate are booked into a £12K a night lodge in NZ (with discount of course) no doubt paid for by our taxes but that’s ok as it is for blue blood establishment causes.
Trust all the desperately poor and needy people in the UK are happy for them!
It was a bizarre argument for Osborne and Darling to make, that Scotland only had use of the pound and had contributed nothing to its success. Osborne in a single sentence, reduced the Union to a bizarre arrangement, where Scotland agreed to be run from Westminster in return for a currency that essentially a corporate chit to be redeemed for services.
In this bizarro world called the UK, Scotland would be a strange nation were no economic activity would take place. It was a sort of soviet style subsidised nation, that just pretended to make goods and services. It didn’t really trade anything, it didn’t even sell anything. It only pretended to do these things while trading UK chits.
When you try to follow Osborne and Darlings logic, this is were it takes you. It is absurd of course and what more an utterly vile and invidious lie.
But that’s argument they decided to go with. 300 years of union, with Scotland simply living off free money. No wonder the unionists think its the most successful union in history. Yet enough of them know it to be a lie – but rather than defend Scotland’s reputation, they joined in. Justifying the unjustifiable and calling this slander the voice of prudence, does not a Union make.
Hello X-Sticks,
Was a pleasure to meet you (and our lurker friend) at the YesMobile today.
You are officially the first Winger I’ve met (Doug Daniel doesn’t count – he’s a legend in his own postcode…)
Keep up the good work!
But the real eye opener for me was when Alan Bisset said to me that Wings is his first port of call each day, it hit home that Wings is becoming… respectable…
What will we do when we’re no longer considered ‘fringe nutters’? 😉
@ Meindevon, thanks for the DM news! Their CiF is almost as nice as vote no CiF Guardian.
“Oh let them have their freedom. Like a petulant teenager who has been spoiled by their parents, and failed their economics exams, lets see the Scots find their own way in the world with no money, no friends, no means of supporting themselves, and not an original idea between them.
and
“I do hope that they get their YES vote. England and Wales would be far better off not having to support all those Scottish unhealthy leeches.
There is a very creepy purdah in all teamGB media right now but sooner or later England is going to have to confront the fact that English power, clout etc is very much on the wane, no matter how hard union jocks like Darling, Lamont, Foulkes and co try to save it.
1 we are no longer fringe nutters
2 we have lots of those weird people called women
3 we actually care about each other
I’m feeling a nice glow
I heard from an old soldier, that the Great Train Robbery 1963 was not the £1million(today £46million) but £4million(£184million) every night on the Glasgow WestCoast railway line. But also the same shipment on the Edinburgh EastCoast railway every night for the same amount(£184million). The money was the daily Scottish taxes collected and sent to London every night(£368million/daily). The Scottish tax money was collected by the Royal Bank of Scotland(RBS), RBS was founded 1727 by the British State after the Union of Parliaments as a mechanism to pay the Parcel o Rogues, their BRIBES, and to collect the Scottish taxes for London’s Bank of England. Scotlands great poet Robert Burnes was a tax collector, James Hutton(world’s first geologist) father was a tax collector. Can you see what it is yet, London immediately started robbing Scotland of its wealth after the Act of Union 1707! I haven’t checked the sums!
@heedtracker. Haven’t been able to bring myself to read the comments on DM yet. Will do once blood pressure comes down a tad! However their posts can be particularly nasty. One once said Indy supporters should be shot for treason( wish I had saved it) and if others get their way, after a yes vote I fully expect a knock on the door and be asked (!) to board the next Glasgow bound train!
“Team Scotland”,
that’s the same name given to the Scottish Commonwealth Games Team.
BBC Scotalnd urr no gonnae like that.
Salmond’s conference speech here:
https://twitter.com/Sneekyboy/status/455099950972424193
What Westminster really fears is a loss of status in the world and a demotion from the top table to one in the second league. And they realise there is little they can do about it apart from banging the Scots back into submission.
Sunday Herald front page
http://twitpic.com/e0zwgy
articles in the Sunday Herald
Even more in our #indyref package: Better Together advisor admits currency advice may be wrong. You’d be daft to miss a packed 7-pg special
More in #indyref package: half Labour voters say Scotland fairer under indy; coalition reforms terrorise poor; Alan Cumming and the ex-pats
Our #indyref package: SNP conference rallies troops with moves to win women voters; lure of Tory-free Scotland; and the negative No campaign
Our #indyref package: SNP conference rallies troops with moves to win women voters; lure of Tory-free Scotland; and the negative No campaign
Labour gets tough on ‘deadwood’ MSPs in move to reform Holyrood selection process – in tomorrow’s paper
It seems that the people who bet know more than the MSM.
http://archive.is/qlXiM
19/10 must be a first.
Sunday Herald front page
http://twitpic.com/e0zwgy
@ Marcia
Labour gets tough on ‘deadwood’ MSPs in move to reform Holyrood selection process – in tomorrow’s paper
There would be none left.
Prof. John Curtice, just blew any credittitability he ever had. He’s just a establishment stooge.
So will get a long contract from EBC.
@Dorothy Bruce
Agree entirely!
cynicalHighlander
They give furniture a bad name.
Kevin McKenna in the Observer
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/12/scottish-independence-better-together-campaign-george-robertson
Better Together scraping the barrel.
Well, at last it looks as if we have an MSM newspaper on our side (even if it only comes out once a week). That’s about six clear weeks (I haven’t been counting) that we’ve had a pro-indy splash from the Sunday Herald
Kininvie, I may have to re-start my regular order.
Oh how I’d love to have my Herald back to read over the breakfast table every day. It was one of the things I was really looking forward to when I moved back home after 25 years living in England. It was even on my wish list when house-hunting – the Dream House had to be somewhere a schoolboy could be induced to show up and shove a Herald through the letter-box before eight in the morning.
I moved into Dream House two days before the SNP won the 2007 election. At first I was just so happy to have the paper again after all those years. Then it got worse and worse, and they appointed Magnus Gardham, and in 2012 I cancelled the order.
If they were even neutral, with some positive editorials, I’d re-order. But not this constant diet of lies and negativity.
Thank God for the Sunday Herald, honestly the other’s must open their eyes and see the tide is turning..
Labour will use it as a reason to move the furniture around, making it easier to ease the, soon to be redundant MP’s, back into Hollyrood.
Will Lamont meet the new criteria or is shabby chic still in?
I’ll buy a Herald tomorrow, should be a good read.
Currency & EU seem more stable just the pensions scare to iron out and all to play for.
@kininvie –
Indeed.
Don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve been buying the Sunday Herald for the last six, seven weeks, and noticed that it’s not quite so difficult to locate a copy mid-afternoon Sunday – they must be printing more of them or (and this seems unlikely) their readership is falling.
Encouraging.
I know you know. It’s just that lines like “gosh look, there are three articles by women today, how amazing” tend to bring out the extremely deeply buried feminist in me.
As it should, really. When I say it’s great to see women on Wings, it isn’t through any sort of surprise, so much as affirmation of what I already knew growing up in a large family of mostly women. It was always a source of bafflement to me when, growing up, people would say women couldn’t do this, and women aren’t as good at men as that – when I’ve seen my mum, gran, aunts, cousins and sister doing exactly what the hell they needed to. So seeing women posting and writing articles on Wings isn’t revelatory to me – it’s just the natural order of things. It’s just a shame it doesn’t happen as often as it should elsewhere on my internet haunts. 🙂
I’d love for nothing more than to live in a world where it’s irrelevant to applaud the gender of a writer, as much as it’s irrelevant to point out anything else about them. But so long as we’re in the UK, I can’t see our government offering anything like the Scottish government (40% female cabinet, equal pay, etc).
@Taranaich – well said, I got your original post too, get’s strange on here sometimes 🙂
I love Taranaich to bits. I was just sounding off.
Re Kevin McKenna in the observer – a great article ruined by BLC and also re The Sunday Herald -I bought it for the 1st time in an age last week in place of the observer and will buy it tomorrow – it deserves our support.
@ Taranaich – I love your comic, I’d just love to read a long essay from yourself on wings, you are worth reading, I always take note of the serious issues you raise xx.
@cynicalHighlander
It’s back to 23/10, don’t know what’s happening.
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/referendum-outcome
@Marcia
Brilliant piece by Kevin McKenna in the Observer.
But rage ran right through me when I landed on this sentence,
“Now, in the House of Lords, these ermined four are known as Baron Robertson of Port Ellen, Baron Foulkes of Cumnock, Baron McConnell of Glenscorrodale and Baron Reid of Cardowan”.
There are lots of reasons I’m going to be very happy when we get the Yes vote in September and these are four of them.
Just watched the FM This is our moment to be a beacon of hope, a land of achievement, our country, our Scotland, our INDEPENDENCE …superb Alex..
Ian Brotherhood I think there is no doubt that the FM and those closest tip a hat to Wings, Bella etc but they cannot publicly state it or else the MSM would vindicate the Salmond runs the cybernats pish, but make no mistake they do acknowledge the difference Rev Stu Campbell has made to this campaign.
Just watched the FM This is our moment to be a beacon of hope, a land of achievement, our country, our Scotland, our INDEPENDENCE …superb Alex..
Ian Brotherhood I think there is no doubt that the FM and those closest tip a hat to Wings, Bella etc but they cannot publicly state it or else the MSM would vindicate the Salmond runs the cybernats pish, but make no mistake they do acknowledge the difference Rev Stu Campbell has made to this campaign.
sorry for the double post, quite emotional after watching FM’s speech, also a bit pished..
Good plan, that.
Sneakyboy: “You are officially the first Winger I’ve met (Doug Daniel doesn’t count – he’s a legend in his own postcode…)”
Hey, I’m a legend in several people’s postcodes, going by the reaction at the last Yes Aberdeen event when I let slip who I was 😛
I’m officially “THE Doug Daniel”, I’ll have you know.
“There’s only one Doug Daniel” “One Doug Daniel”
And that’s a fact. Love yer posts Doug, more power to yer keyboard.
Actually, there’s at least one other Doug Daniel. He used to live in Salisbury Terrace when I was about 10, because we used to get phone calls from folk thinking I was him.
Never understood that, since we were in the phone book under G Daniel…
A couple of days old but some might have missed it.
Stubbornly metropolitan but it looks like the City has just caught a sniff of coffee and possibly even a whiff of TOAST.
CAUTION; May contain nuts. 😉
The Westminster government’s strategy – backed up by Scottish-based companies threatening to leave – has been bluster and threat, typified by the recent shemozzle about whether Scotland would be able to keep the pound. The tone of voice was that of a parent confronting a rebellious teenager. “I’m a No voter,” one young woman told me, “and I’m affronted. Their whole approach smacks of arrogance.”
I’m a bit disappointed that Dr. Catriona Macdonald failed to mention that Scotland has its own independent National Health Service. Hope that doesn’t have anything to do with her working for Glasgow University.
All the usual haivers and apparently Alex Salmond doesn’t want to win.
Executive Summary
– Too poor, too weak, too stupid.
– We will have the chance to negotiate for Devo Max. after a probable no vote.
– Iain Duncan Smith is a saint.
Thought you might enjoy a chortle with your TOAST. 🙂
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/90acb1a8-c04a-11e3-bfbc-00144feabdc0.html#slide0 😉
– Too poor, too WEE, too stupid. 😉
CameronB @4.28
I really really wish I hadn’t read that before going to work this morning, this has really bummed me out reading that garbage and the posters are a joke!
o/t count me in for 20 quid 🙂
“There’s only one Doug Daniel” “One Doug Daniel”
Doug who? 🙂
Not even O/T with the gender balance on Wings lately, :-). Women for Indy have three days to go and a wee bit still to reach. Money better spent on them than an Easter egg.
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/women-for-independence-our-voices-fundraiser
Dundee buses would look pretty hot decked out like this http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/yes-dundee-bus-adverts
Links to Sunday Herald articles for folks who don’t subscribe or buy the paper (SH, I do both, btw)
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/rallying-cry-salmond-inspires-troops-at-last-snp-conference-before-referend.23945463
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/poll-half-of-labour-voters-believe-indy-scotland-would-be-fairer.23950999
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/better-together-adviser-admits-advice-ruling-out-currency-union-may-be-wron.23945432
Oh and Iain MacW
http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/goodbye-to-labour-complacency-and-forces-of-darkness-hello-new-scotland.23946243
Stu what’s your plans for after a yes vote as this is my first port of call news outlook then over to BBC to see what bullshit is flying.
Will the wings still be keeping a watchful eye over an indy Scotland for shenanigans?
A while ago i was on the radio 5 phone in talking to Nicky Campbell about Scottish independence referendum and pro. Curtice,s name came up Campbell said he was a well respected professor I replied that I did not respect him and I did not no anyone who did he was just a bbc place man and an Englishman into the bargain I have since been barred of radio 5 as I told them they are terrified of the truth. Vote yes
Thank you so much for that piece Cath. I will happily use iron bars as currency to see Scotland Independent, not that we have too.
I would say that Nirvana will take a wee bit time in coming along, as I look at Cuba and see the damage done there for the effrontery of having a better way of life and education than the good old USA, hence I think that the Westminster Government cannot let us have it all our own way.
To those who complain about not being allowed to post You Tube links willy nilly, I tend to worry when they are. Only vigilance by the Rev is maintaining this site, do you think that the only people coming on here are Yesser’s. I bet that we have a good many infiltrators and they are not here for fun.
As to the Old Soldier’s tale about money sloshing about on the railway, who knows whether it is true or not but lack of transparency is always to blame for the rise in conspiracy theory’s.
I also believe that John Curtice is a tool, and a willing tool of the establishment. I wonder if it is a Sir he is after to add to his Professorship.
See I have been lurking, bleeding Kindle, I find it useful but not that much use, cannot reply when I want.
As for these aforementioned Lords – I have a lot of time for Jack McConnell. He did his best in office. What was revealing was his complaint after losing 2007 that the party in London had taken over the campaign and lost it for him. Revealing too that we’ve barely heard a peep from him on this issue.
Can’t speak for Reid – he was a formidable election winning machine but nothing else, an unlikeable man with no guiding principles beyond winning and loyalty to Blair. So far he’s been quiet and I don’t think there is anything he could probably bring to the debate except remind us of the Iraq war.
Ffoulkes – he provides so much entertainment and hilarity it is hard to dislike him.
Which leaves Robertson – he is a genuine dinosaur, facing extinction. Except he’s not – he’s climbed the greasy pole with spectacular success and enriched himself immensely. Even after a no vote he will be vastly better off than the people he is currently trying to cow with his bluster. Hard to feel any sympathy there.
@tattie-bogle
We’ve funded the Rev until at least next February – so I imagine he (and we) will be around to keep a close eye on things after a Yes vote
Does anyone know why the Scottish pound is not legal tender?
I bought a few things in a Toolstation near Bristol yesterday and they would not accept my Scottish pound notes, (I didn’t spend them all in the counting house).The manager said it wasn’t his decision but a Toolstation policy not to accept Scottish money.
All this fuss about a future currency when the one we have now doesn’t seem to work.
In another excellent pro-Scotland article in the Herald, Macwhirter asserts Scots have never felt oppressed but I would argue we understood Scotland is artificially constrained, and much that could have been implemented to its benefit, inhibited or controlled.
As I state on a blog, the Scots whinge, his attitude of despair rests almost entirely on perceiving decisions are what other people make somewhere else.
It is difficult to feel oppressed when free to travel almost anywhere you wish, or buy all you can afford, but you do begin to feel disadvantaged when you look at what has been happening England’s south east, and how you’re treated as a region of someone else’s country.
Does anyone know why the Scottish pound is not legal tender?
In strict terms NO currency is legal.
A UK law was passed some time back making it illegal for shopkeepers and the like to refuse Scottish bank notes.
Often you are witness to pig ignorance, folk who have never seen a Scottish note before. But I suspect we shall see more refusls as the wee Englanders take it upon themselves to teach those troublemakers in the norytjh a lesson.
Craig P,
Reid will come in later to play the sectarian card.
Thanks Grouse Beater, I didn’t know about a law being passed against refusal.
I think you are right about more refusals from individuals the nearer we get to September and probably after. That won’t bother me as much as a Britain wide company having a policy of refusing Scottish notes.
Blair
I think you are being a wee bit harsh on Prof Curice. Yes he is the BBC’s favourite on call psephologist and probably leans to Labour. However, he has played his What Scotland Thinks blog with a reasonably straight bat and he has covered and included our polls in his stats despite the Better Together side claiming that they are somehow invalid because we paid for them. He has had some dispiriting words for the No campaign of late.
On a separate matter I see that we are not only going to bring down western civilisation if we vote Yes but we will also be responsible for condemning the poor in the third world to starvation if we do so…Justine Greening in the Times today.
What next? God will be forced to drown cute kittens if we vote Yes?
SquareHaggis says:
“Hya X-Sticks, good to meet anither few Wingers today.”
Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:
“Was a pleasure to meet you (and our lurker friend) at the YesMobile today.”
Aye, great meeting you guys too and Ronnie (not Anderson) and quite a few others who I know are reading Wings though not contributing – c’mon in guys – I know from speaking to you that you DO have something worthwhile to contribute so don’t be shy! It doesn’t hurt, honest.
I saw someone discussing the official campaign’s relationship with Wings and the other pro-indy sites. Square Haggis (I think it was anyway) and I had a good conversation about this yesterday. They (Yes & SNP) may hold us at arms length, but be assured they know full well what we are about here and many of them are daily readers.
They won’t officially recognise us because we do something that they can’t. We can get under the skin of the unionists in ways that they can’t be seen to condone. We can say things in ways that the official campaign cannot.
The online independence community are a crucial part of the overall campaign. We are the voice that has never before been allowed to speak because of the establishment’s almost total control of the media.
The internet is the game-changer that will make the difference this time, and the way the online community is becoming a real-life community is truly astonishing.
A new Scotland is emerging before our eyes. What a grand sight it is.
Some time ago on the CiF section of the Guardian / Observer there was a pro Indy poster stating time and time again that the UK Gov maintained a group of experts on a wide range of subjects who were to be available as trusted independent keystones for opinions in their chosen fields.
Curtice was one as was Prof Pennington , who is Labour party member.
It make sense, BBC mindspeak, to use these trusted Professors as they presumably come free or at a reduced rate and can be guaranteed to be on-message.
I wish I had confirmation of such a perfuming of the political well.
It does make some sense why these everpresent face get to be given the reverence they receive by the MSM and why other, equally capable experts, are ignored.
I know that the UK Gov salts various charities, think tanks and private research organisations who are sympathetic to their way of travel and usually later can then relied to provide evidence to support that.
The people who paid for George Robertson’s jaunt to Washington is basically a front for the US and UK ARMS industries and I wonder why Naughtie is also a member of the same thinktank. Naughtie flew to Washington to cover it for the BBC. I wonder who paid for his ticket?
The Hydra has many heads
I see a few Yes shops are starting to spring up too. There is one thing for sure, we won’t lose this for want of trying and some strong bonds will have been formed to continue to argue Scotland’s case. If we win I think there will be some serious recriminations in the No camp because their campaign has gone from bad to worse. Not only has their promised positivity failed to materialise but they have actually gone to the ridiculous on the negativity front. So much so that even No supporters are now face palming.
O/T Genuine question –
Since the Westminster ‘Mortgagegate perks system’ has reared up to expose the UK’s ugly undebelly yet again (“Undecided need more information !”), and we are talking about all our fine Lords in this thread,(not forgetting the associated costs v benefits and all that), could someone remind me again of the major / financial impropriety & mortgage scandals that have hit the SNP during their disasterous period in office, running Scotlands affairs into the ground.
Now they must have a similar record to Labour, Tories & Liberals; surely ? Temptation and all that?
Sure I must have missed something on the BBC or in the press? I know the undecideds would want filled in on that track record but dont think press and media have looked at it in that way.
Oh and who were the best and worst of the SNP Lords ?; really think it would be good to see if Scots are getting their money’s worth from SNP in the ‘upper’ chamber over the years.
BtP
It is also true that a number of think tank reports on the economic impact of Scottish independence have been funded by Vince Cable’s BiS department.
The UK Government and various other bodies have thrown a fair bit of money at this. Lord Robertson is right, there are Forces of Darkness, he should know he is part of them 😉
Some Academics are getting £Millions of public monies from BT for their Polls and their research etc. Why bite the hand that feeds?
The internet is the game-changer that will make the difference this time, and the way the online community is becoming a real-life community is truly astonishing.
A new Scotland is emerging before our eyes. What a grand sight it is.
I wonder how this will all play out in the future? Maybe we can have Wings Independent candidates standing in 2016? Trying to make a political party out of us would be like herding cats, which is why people would have to stand as independents, but I think everyone here could probably sign up to a Wings pledge of total honesty & transparency, nae troughing, and speaking truth to power….
@HandandShrimp
Fishmongers never announce they are selling “stinking fish,” even if it is days old. It is always fresh.
Fish Merchants pay the fishmongers to say that.
Craig P says:
“I have a lot of time for Jack McConnell.”
What, the man who bought his lordship by RETURNING £billions of the Scottish block grant because he (and labour) COULDN’T THINK OF ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT! WTF!
Children in poverty in Scotland but Joke can’t think what to spend money on?
The man who was more interested in his vanity project in Malawi than poverty in Glasgow?
The man who feted Donald Trump and HIS vanity project in Balmedie?
Are you sure about that Craig?
X Sticks
To be fair, the incumbents in post after Jack make Jack look, with hindsight, pretty damned good.
It’s all relative like 🙂
@X Sticks, I dont know if you have watched the Street Interviews in Aberdeen City yesterday, but in a busy City centre they managed to find the Village Idiot ( the oil will run oot 20/50/100 years then whit will we do ) I think you,s have your workload doubled wie clowns like that.Truly a man without vision,an Specsavers isna his cure.
kininvie says:
“I wonder how this will all play out in the future?”
Aye, kininvie, me too. There is a sense of involvement in the Yes camp. A sense of camaraderie in the shared cause. A renewed interest in the politics of Scotland that will not disappear after the referendum.
What that will mean in the future who can say. Whatever, I think it will change politics in Scotland forever. It is doing so already.
Will the SNP survive after a Yes vote? Will it fracture into its differing political views, it is a broad church after all. Will the Labour party be reborn in an independent Scotland? I think it probably will. The new Labour mob will be swept away to be replaced by the likes of Allan Grogan and Labour for indy. As some others have speculated, there may even be a resurgent Scottish conservative party, and its worth bearing in mind that Scotland was historically quite conservative until the party was subjucated by Westminster.
We sure do live in interesting times, and I am excited by the possibilities in the future.
A Wings Over Scotland political party? Not impossible, but as you say it would be like herding cats! 😀
@HandandShrimp says:
X Sticks
To be fair, the incumbents in post after Jack make Jack look, with hindsight, pretty damned good.
It’s all relative like 🙂
Illustrated: http://i.imgur.com/Py77MA9.jpg
🙂
ronnie anderson says:
“I dont know if you have watched the Street Interviews in Aberdeen City yesterday”
Missed that Ronnie – was that on the bbc? We couldn’t get any coverage in the YesMobile yesterday – you can only get UK bbc online.
Yes, Aberdeen IS difficult. Too many people with too much money and many are only interested in their own welfare and see the union as a safe bet. There are also many who have vested interests – ie the oil industry management who have VERY strong links with Westminster and especially the torys.
There is a strong grassroots Yes both in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire, so I’m hopeful we can swing things by September.
gordoz says – 10:31
“Oh and who were the best and worst of the SNP Lords ?; really think it would be good to see if Scots are getting their money’s worth from SNP in the ‘upper’ chamber over the years.”
There are no SNP lords.
Wings over Scotland as a political party would be like herding cats.
Rev,ah hope your reading these posts,you have giver those ungratfull lot of Wingers a platforn to voice their opinions,an your no even given consideration.It must be because your a Rodent lover,ungratefull swines you,s lots sos you,s ur,Tricia Marwick would have a heart attack in the 1st 5mins.lol
Apparently Gordon Brown will be giving one of his thrilling pro-union speeches somewhere in central Glasgow at 5pm on 22nd April. They’re doing the usual keeping the venue secret until the last minute, presumably to make the whole dreary event seem more exciting.
I must say I do find the extraordinary lengths BT go to, to make actually attending one of their meetings such a faff hilarious. Imagine running a campaign so awful, that you actively have to discourage people from listening to what you have to say.
@X_Sticks
I was really thinking about the online community and what role it would play. We’ve all got so used to digging out facts and exposing untruths (not to mention visiting lonely railway stations and constituency offices in the cause of finding the truth) that I don’t see us giving up just because we have a bright shiny new country…
When Jack McConnell said he was going to “do less better” he inadvertently gave the Labour game away to the Scottish electorate, and paved the way for the SNP win in 2007.
He eventually got his ermine, so no harm done in the end from his viewpoint.
🙂
BBC Radio Scotland – Ken MacDonald + annoying woman on yet again; who is she – an nobody as far as I can make out ???
Terminal decline now established.
‘ Scoffing point raised by public about BBC impartiality yet again. Completey shocking.
Finished with that smug git after todays mince.
On places that are difficult we come to Hamilton. From talking to some of the regular campaigners (I have severe constraints on my time so can’t do as much as I would like), Hamilton folk are majorly in the No camp. I haven’t seen his name mentioned much on here but I think Tommy Sheridan is a major asset to the Yes campaign. His youtube video has seemingly swayed many away from the dark side. I heard that a debate in a working class area of Falkirk saw a large swing of undecided to Yes, I think Dennis Canavan was present. Well, we need some of that here in Hamilton in similar areas like Hillhouse, Whitehill, Burnbank and Fairhill. There are many folk who are not politically active, apathetic, and dare I say it, not that bright. A headline debate or even a Yes night with Tommy and Dennis could make a difference.
There is a Yes debate involving Nicola and Christina McKelvie at UWS soon but I’d imagine once again that will be, in the main, preaching to the converted. Time is getting on and we need to prioritise the poorer in our communities. The very folk that surely must see, once they hear the facts, that their lives are only going to get worse under Westminster and the likelihood of 5 more years of Tories we didn’t vote for.
@Cath Ferguson, ah bit late in the day Cath but many thanks for your story,I had a piece on the Yes site some time ago on the Tulip econemy,an people think am a idiot, am well past that stage lol,looking forward to more of your contrabutions, Cmon the Wummin ma Mither was of your fraternity,didna stop her driveing overhead Granes in the steelworks during the WW11.
Is Cameron a man or a mouse?…
youtu.be/-SODGrlE2WI
My first offering in a week or so … been very busy!
http://www.commentisntfree.com/praying-for-rain/
I really do believe that the side who wants it most will win.
A pity the BBC did not cover Alan Bissett’s devastating and brilliant critique of the Project Fear and pro union media campaign. The Pure, The Dead and The Brilliant.
This Edinburgh Fringe event is a great repost to the Edinburgh Festival’s ban on exploring referendum issues as this would upset the Scottish Arts establishment.
Whilst the basic funding target has been achieved and the show will go on, additional financial support is required to pay for musicians and costumes.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-pure-the-dead-and-the-brilliant
http://alanbissett.com/2014/02/14/the-pure-the-dead-and-the-brilliant/
The BBC is still outrageous in its coverage of the YES campaign.
On BBC Radio Four at 6 p.m. on Saturday evening they erroneously stated that Alex Salmond said that the Yes campaign was the most boring in history. Then they compounded their felony by giving Blair MacDougall ten minutes in which to trash the YES Scotland campaign but no spokesperson from YES was aired.
Why is the BBC Sunday TV coverage of the SNP conference on at midnight on Sunday evening whereas all the other Scottish Party conferences had big coverage at Sunday lunchtime?
There is no excuse for this bias as BBC2 is screening over two hours of cookery programme repeats between 10 am and 12.15 pm.
yeah, a new political party. a policy to bring back hanging for utter lowlife humans who dont pick up their dogs doings would attract many like me.
Ah… I have finally figured it out… you can’t post links of youtube videos from Android App (like my last failed post)… but you can take the http off of (to avoid imbedding the vids) general youtube site links to post here like this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SODGrlE2WI
Don’t think anyone else has picked this up from one of the early comments here (‘Arbroath1320’ I think)but it is important.
After we win the referendum Faslane won’t “go” and it’s important that we don’t say that it will. What will go is Trident,all facility for nuclear weaponry, and all UK forces. As the White Paper clearly states Faslane will become the main base of the new, conventionally armed, Scottish navy as well as the headquarters for all of the armed foces of the new Scotland.
For us in “YES Helensburgh and Lomond” who have to counter the shamelessly dishonest scare claims of mass job losses, “When the base closes”, from Jackie Baillie, Alan Reid and their handful of, usually invisible, stooges clarity on this matter is essential.
We are making good headway on the matter and clearly have then worried that another set of their scare lies is collapsing but, PLEASE, let’s ALL get it clear.
@kininvie
“I was really thinking about the online community and what role it would play.”
There’s no doubt that an independent Scottish parliament will be under scrutiny like no other parliament in history from day one. Maybe not all the pro-indy websites will survive post independence, but some of them undoubtedly will. I certainly hope Stu and Wings will continue to monitor what Holyrood gets up to. It should ensure that any Scottish government can NEVER become a cesspit of corruption like Westminster has become.
@James Forrest, and a very welcome return James,you hit the highbar on every piece,many thanks.
Ian Hamilton QC and Tommy Sheridan in Oban.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=PCm0KKACNg0&feature=youtu.be
//m.youtube.com/watch?v=PCm0KKACNg0&feature=youtu.be
Harry says:
“On places that are difficult”
Yes, Harry, we should not get complacent and there is still a lot of work to do but at the end of the day we only NEED 50%+1 so I firmly believe that it can be done.
I am hopeful that on the day many of those who appear undecided will put their cross in the Yes box. The upcoming EU election and the almost certain rise of UKIP in England will sway many minds.
I give up
://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PCm0KKACNg0&feature=youtu.be
You know what I mean
@Alba4Eva, much humble pie to be consumed then
Gordoz
Katie Grant is a writer, children’s books I think, but also writes for the Daily Wail and is a stick on Yes voter
Sergio Casci is a film screenwriter and was, I thought, a very lively, warm and able match for Katie…the latter conceding that she agreed that the No campaign is miserable.
@Andrew, your first link worked perfectly for me
O/T
Just to bring another fundraiser to your attention – although nothing to do with #inyref:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mobile-mechanic-start-up
If you’ve followed Paul on Twitter, you’ll know he’s had a hard time finding a job, and has come up with his Mobile Mechanic idea as a start-up.
And for those in the Edinburgh area, the perks look interesting!
@HandandShrimp, I presume you meant very very committed NO voter for Katie Grant
O/T
BBC News Channel 12.30pm today.
BBC News channel have invited the “Big Beasts” of the Independence campaign into the studio to debate the issue.
No more details of who is going to be there.
Worth a watch, I would think.
@X_Sticks Yes Scotland will disappear after 2016. Its up to the REV & us to keep this site going,& never again let politicians dictate from on high ( of any political party )this WOS site has proven the need to provide a clear view on politics & media manipulation,WOS can only grow as IScotland grows,an lang may oor lungs reek,cause the shouting will be starting soon,an we wont be short of puff.
Line-up for the Borders Book Festival –
Paddy Ashdown, Kirsty Wark, Sally Magnusson, Sara Sheridan (novelist who posed on National Collective as an undecided only to appear somewhere else as decidedly No), Alan Massie, Gordon Brown, James Naughtie, Tom Devine, and a Forsyth v Sillars debate, plus Sir Harry Lauder!
Brown’s programme blurb – “With only three months to go before the independence referendum, the former Prime Minister will talk about his vision of Scottishness, Britishness, the unique nature of the union, how it might change and how Scotland might lead Britain, not leave it. This will be a landmark moment in the independence debate.”
Do I hear someone at the back sniggering?
@Andrew Morton 11:52
if the URL starts with www then you strip off the http:// bit and WordPress adds it in automatically. If it starts with anything else (e.g. m.youtube) leave the http bit alone and it will be fine.
Although, the m. prefix is for mobile devices and I’m not sure it will be overly good for us big screen watchers 😉
O/T
Russia/Ukraine crisis looks as if it is going to blow up.
George Osborne/London financial centre are shittin themselves.
Sanctions will need to be imposed on Russia, who, in turn will halt gas supply to Europe and pull all their finances out of places like the City of London banking sector.
Smiley face.
@caz-m 12:08
Not shown on the listings as a debate. It shows “Sarah Smith takes a look at the early careers of AS, NS, AC etc.”
Andrew Morton says:
13 April, 2014 at 11:50 am
I give up
and
//m.youtube.com/watch?v=PCm0KKACNg0&feature=youtu.be
Hi Andrew.
You’re supposed to post the “pure” YouTube link. To take your example above…
By stripping out the unnecessary, and adding in a “www”, you should have changed it to:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCm0KKACNg0
NOTE: you don’t type the http – the blog adds that in itself.
On Hamilton again, I did manage to spare a few minutes last Saturday to hand out some leaflets to shoppers in the town centre. One bundle I had was the Labour for Independence leaflet. I handed one to wee woman in her 50s or 60s. She said, “oh it’s ok, I always vote for them anyway”. I explained to her that it was actually Labour folk for independence, she seemed very surprised, that Independence and Labour could go together. Made me think that those leaflets and Labour for Indy in general are very, very important.
SHAZBAT! I should have typed,
NOTE: you don’t type the “http://” – the blog adds that in itself.
The point of the last post regarding Russia/Ukraine crisis was that come September, the UK Government will be begging Scotland to have a currency union, because by then the Pound will be so weak that they couldn’t do without Scotland in a currency union.
OK Jim T, TA!
BBC News didn’t advertise it like that.
No Sunday Herald in the wee local shop ‘we don’t get it in’ nor in Menzies in the shopping centre..Jeez! All gone.
I’ll rely on you folk to fill me in. 🙂
BBC Radio Scotland – Ken MacDonald this morning.
Overall the ‘better together’ argument was ridiculed and laughed off the park. Aye who is that woman?
PS
Footie and golf streams for today posted ‘off topic’.
@caz-m
Ahh, that ever reliable BBC eh?
😡
“Sarah Smith takes a look at the early careers of AS, NS, AC etc.”
I commented on the waver thin shallowness of the programme earlier; information culled from the internet with a few clunky colloqualisms to ingratiate and popularise, composed for those who live in Sark never having heard of those politicians and probably not Scotland.
Is this to be Ms Smith’s standard?
caz-m says:
“Worth a watch, I would think.”
Can easily summarise for you caz-m”
Alex Salmond, gambler, disruptive liar. Johann Lamont, Alastair Darling and Alasdair Carmichael are all very good at their jobs.
What else would you expect from Sarah Smith?
call me dave says:
No Sunday Herald…
The Herald articles are all pasted in full at the “Eu Citizens for an Independent Scotland” Facebook page.
http://www.facebook.com/EuCitizensForAnIndependentScotland
Let’s be honest, the no campaign have continuously misfired with their threats, high profile ones on currency and the rest, and they are also seen to be bedfellows with the cooperation of Darling, Baws, Osbourne etc. to tell us for instance that Scotland, uniquely, won’t have any form of physical money to spend come Independence.
We should rejoice at their constant arrogance and triumphalism and their lies……..it is slowly undoing the no campaign, I know at least half a dozen work colleagues who have over the last month come out from no to Yes (they were NOT undecideds!) and it has been this barrage that has made them take the time to question their voting intention.
We aren’t at the ‘fondling our own bottoms’ stage yet, but we are, as Yes supporters seeing the slow change in the air and we need to work harder and harder to keep the public informed and show our positivity (and take the piss out of the idiotic no campaign when appropriate).
Dunno about the rest of you but it gets on my tits having to trawl through the bizarre exchanges of (the admittedly few) people who are moaning about “can’t post youtube’ and not listening to replies or believing them……..it is quite pathetic to see anyone make out that the person running this site must hate the multi Billion corporation of youtube based on the flimsy reason that they couldn’t post their own links on here.
Hetty- “The main message said, ‘who do you think you are kidding mr Salmond?’ Trying to be clever in using a dads army line to attempt to portray A Salmond as a nazi.”
The rest of that song states ‘if you think old England’s done’…Not really thought that one through now, have they?
I’ve just watched Sarah Smith’s ‘Referendum Connections’.
Why was it on the BBC News channel and not CBeebies?
It was a Newsround spin off for ages 6-9, right?
Any truth in the rumour there is a new no group been set up in Glasgow?
Believe it may be called: BBC FOR NO!
Re Hamilton – I used to work in Motherwell and the vast majority are staunch Labour, so I agree that Labour for Indy are very important.
You’d think they would have learned from Ravenscraig.
I was out recently at a meal with some of my old colleagues and it tuned out that one of them was now working at Grangemouth and was there during the Ineos affair.
I asked him his opinion on the intervention by the SG and he replied ‘AS and JS sold the workers down the river’ and his friend agreed – this is what we are up against.
Brian Doonthetoon
Thanks for the link enjoying the articles, with one eye on the footie..
Some above are talking about after a yes vote. I’ve always said whichever party gets into Gov. I will scrutinise them and their policies just as much as I do now and this would indeed be the forum to do that!
Betsy says:
13 April, 2014 at 11:19 am
….I must say I do find the extraordinary lengths BT go to, to make actually attending one of their meetings such a faff hilarious. Imagine running a campaign so awful, that you actively have to discourage people from listening to what you have to say.
I made a joke months back that Better Together are a classical exmple of an occult group. Hidden knowledge and such. Well, what with their increasingly secretive nature and the complete failure to divulge the ‘positive case for the union’, I think I was actually correct.
Better Together are in reality, an OCCULT cult.
Tee hee. 🙂
If labour are looking for a way of removing “deadwood MSP’s”, it really can only mean the westminster labour crew are looking for a way back into politics after a yes vote in september.
And of course a labour MP will trample over anyone including their family to keep their nose in the expenses trough.
Labour MSP’s beware, your own kind are coming for your jobs and careers, check out ‘labour for independence’ before its too late.
@Croompenstein – well said, I got your original post too, get’s strange on here sometimes
@Morag: I love Taranaich to bits. I was just sounding off.
Aww, I love you guys too! *hug*
@Paula Rose: I love your comic, I’d just love to read a long essay from yourself on wings, you are worth reading, I always take note of the serious issues you raise xx.
Thank you Paula! I am working on a few wee essays myself which I’m thinking of sending to Rev. If not, I’ll put them on my blog.
Just realised I haven’t actually commented on Cath’s great post:
Instead, the No parties opted for the much cruder tactic: use currency as a club to beat the dastardly Nats with. But the danger with swinging a club instead of talking is that if you’re not careful, the club can be snatched away and used against you.
It also helps if the club is actually made of a substance that could cause some damage. Given how much Scots actually seem to care about using the pound, it seems the Establishment brandished a club they believed to be wrought of meteoric iron, only find it bounced harmlessly off Scottish heads as if it was sponge.
There can be, and will be, no bar on Scotland using the pound should it choose independence this September. The only people who will ultimately decide what Scotland’s currency will be in 2016 and beyond will be the electorate. Should they, of course, have chosen to give themselves the power to do so.
Scots have been told they’re impotent for generations, that they don’t matter, that they can’t change things. When suddenly faced with the possibility that they CAN change things, it’s little wonder some of them need to be convinced of their own power – especially since those who have made them so powerless are pressing down.
gerry parker says:
Reid will come in later to play the sectarian card.
I wonder. George Galloway is trying to do it but it isn’t really sticking.
X_Sticks says:
Craig P says: “I have a lot of time for Jack McConnell.”
What, the man who bought his lordship by RETURNING £billions of the Scottish block grant because he (and labour) COULDN’T THINK OF ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT! WTF!
I was done with McConnell after the Euro 2008 bid debacle, and cringed at the ‘best (small) country in the world’ ads, but I did get the feeling he did his best to his abilities, and was forced to fight the 2007 election with one hand tied behind his back by his superiors in London.
think I will go for a lie down now after defending a Labour lord…
I can’t remember the exact words, but a comment on Radio Scotland the other week was along the lines… “I’d rather use Greenshield stamps and coloured beads, than trust George Osborne.” Class.