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The monstrous detriment of women

Posted on November 29, 2015 by

We were considering having a day off today, readers. There’s absolutely nothing of any note happening in Scottish politics, and the papers have been reduced to scraping up all manner of barely-reheated leftover dregs to fill their pages.

But then someone drew our attention to something in Scotland On Sunday about the ongoing Women For Independence fiasco, and we were too annoyed to let it lie.


Sprawled across THREE full pages, under the optimistic heading of “Insight”, the paper carries an article by Dani Garavelli on the mess currently surrounding WFI. With absolutely no new news, the piece cobbles together factual errors, contradictions, vacuous tittle-tattle and cheap insinuations into a grand custard pie of drivel aimed square into the face of the paper’s few remaining readers.

“Last week, Women for Independence announced it had been forced to call in Police Scotland to investigate £30,000 of missing donations.”

No it didn’t. WFI announced there were financial irregularities. It made no mention of a figure of £30,000 whatsoever, and any such figure is highly questionable. Nobody has publicly claimed it, and papers have repeated it without even categorising the alleged source (eg “a WFI member who didn’t wish to be identified”), let alone naming them.

But all previous citations have at least qualified the assertion with weasel words like “thought to have been”. Garavelli just comes right out and states it as a fact, turning an unsourced, deeply dubious rumour into concrete.

“Within Women for Independence, the discovery of apparent financial discrepancies has been met with disbelief followed by a deep sense of betrayal, but outside, tough questions are being asked about the way it ran its affairs. How is it possible for £30,000 to be unaccounted for?”

Is £30,000 unaccounted for? We haven’t a clue. What we can say for sure is that if it is, WFI has received a very large sum of money in donations that nobody knew about. Why isn’t anyone asking about that?

“What kind of safeguards were put in place to ensure public donations were used for the purposes intended?”

WFI’s three public fundraisers (1, 23) were in fact rather vague on what the money would be used for. Only the first one provides any real “shopping list”, and most of the items on that (leaflets, staff costs, promotional videos) were fulfilled according to the verified accounts WFI provided to the Electoral Commission.

“The scandal – which reduces the number of SNP MPs from 56 to 54 – also has major implications for the party. Coming so soon after Edinburgh West MP Michelle Thomson resigned the whip over her own travails, it raises fresh doubts about the rigour of the SNP’s vetting procedures.”

Does it? As far as we know neither Natalie McGarry nor Michelle Thomson has even been spoken to by police, let alone arrested, charged or convicted with any offence. At the moment both are entirely innocent in the eyes of the law.

“There are questions too over whether or not the party should have acted more quickly over McGarry. It is understood the financial discrepancies did not surface until late summer, several months after the general election.”

This flatly contradicts pretty much every other media report of the story. Saturday’s Daily Record, for example, claimed that “Natalie McGarry’s access to Women for Independence cash was blocked three months before she became an MP”, clearly implying that there were suspicions at that time.

“The missing donations at the centre of the inquiry pre-date the referendum; after September 18 last year, when new members began flooding in and it became clear there was a desire for WFI to keep going, efforts were made to put the group on a more formal footing […] Before that, however, it is understood money for specific projects was raised through crowdfunding.”

This is a very confused passage. The amount of money known to have been raised by WFI specifically before the referendum is £36,000 (£21K in March 2014 and £15K in August). Of that, a minimum of just under £25,000 is fully invoiced, receipted and accounted for in the Electoral Commission returns. That leaves an absolute maximum of £11,000 that could possibly be “missing” (and that would assume that nothing else had been spent legitimately and that the account had been completely emptied).

Again there’s no mention of any other source of money than the crowdfunders, and the SoS piece states that members weren’t charged a subscription fee until after the referendum. Garavelli makes no attempt to source the other £19,000 (or more).

“When the story broke on Monday morning, Sturgeon still appeared to be on the back foot. Under pressure to suspend McGarry, she continued to insist she didn’t have enough information to make a decision, while critics wondered aloud what more she could require.”

Because critics of the SNP are always reasonable and restrained, of course, and their “advice” to Nicola Sturgeon should always be followed without question. NOBODY as yet appears to have much in the way of solid information, why would the First Minister – not a member of WFI as far as we know – be any different?

“The poor handling of the Thomson saga had already highlighted both the PR vacuum left by the departure of SNP spin doctor Kevin Pringle and the way the sudden surge of popularity it experienced after the referendum left the SNP struggling to vet its would-be general election candidates as thoroughly as it might have liked.”

How are we defining “poor handling” here? Both Thomson and McGarry have resigned the whip and been automatically suspended. Neither are currently members of the SNP, despite not having even been questioned by police.

In contrast, when Ruth Davidson WAS questioned by the police over allegations of illegal ballot sampling, she didn’t stand down from the Scottish Conservatives. Labour MP Marie Rimmer, arrested and charged with physically assaulting a member of the public outside a polling station on referendum day and due to go on trial next April, remains a member of the Labour Party.


Which party, readers may reasonably wonder, has handled their situation better?

“As discussed in the wake of Thomson’s suspension, the system relied heavily on candidates disclosing anything in their past which might bring the party into disrepute.”

Yet Garavelli herself just told us that “the financial discrepancies did not surface until late summer, several months after the general election”. So how could the SNP have possibly been expected to “vet” McGarry over something that hadn’t happened yet?

“Sturgeon and her cabinet must be nervously wondering how many other skeletons might fall out of the collective closet; and whether the vetting of the party’s MSP candidates was more rigorous.”

Must she? Why? No SNP MP has yet been found guilty of any kind of wrongdoing.

“More generally, the affair also highlights some of the risks around crowdfunding, which is becoming an increasingly popular means of funding new organisations and projects. Although the benefits are obvious – members of the public can give small amounts to help pet projects get off the ground – donors have little way of guaranteeing that their money will be used in the manner stipulated or that those collecting the money have rigorous financial systems in place.

Last month, independence activist Stuart Campbell, who also raised money through Crowdfunding, was fined £750 by the Electoral Commission for failing to provide receipts and invoices relating to campaign expenditure.”

Ooh, a guest appearance! Garavelli’s statement here is misleading at best. We were fined by the EC for delivering receipts and invoices late, not for failing to provide them at all. By the time the fine was levied the Commission had been in possession of all the necessary paperwork for months, and when issuing the fine it accepted that “there was no intention to avoid transparency on your part”.

There has also been no allegation whatsoever that any of the money raised for this site in any of its fundraising campaigns has been misused – something that casual readers might well infer from Garavelli’s barely-disguised innuendo and the mere fact of being mentioned in the same article as the WFI case.

(For the record, Wings money is kept in a separate bank account at a different bank to my personal salary, and we’re very clear in our fundraisers about exactly how much of the money will be used to pay my modest wage.)

The Scotsman has form in defaming Wings Over Scotland, and we’d advise it to tread very carefully about what it implies.

“WFI’s emphasis on democracy, inclusivity and respectful debate may endure, but – with the police inquiry ongoing – it seems likely the trust that was the hallmark of the early days will be difficult to rebuild.”

Maybe it will and maybe it won’t – as yet it’s not even clear if any kind of crime has been committed. But it seems safe to say that that which once existed between Scottish newspapers and their readership is long gone, and deservedly so.

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263 to “The monstrous detriment of women”

  1. GallusEffie says:

    Urgh, this just makes me want to donate to WFI just to defy this piece of ragbag journalism.

    So much them and us – they get all the perks and little of the snide…oh apart from actual votes…

  2. PEter Mirtitsch says:

    That is my point entirely when debating with assorted #SNPBad unionists. At no point have any ALLEGATIONS been made, let alone CHARGES or CONVICTIONS.

    In the case of “mortgagegate”, it appears that one of the MPs may have been guilty of allowing her company to con a couple who couldn’t get their house sold in a slack market, into accepting a 100% profit on their initial purchase.

    With “WFIgate”, it is even mopre vague than that, other than the fact that SOME money is unaccounted for, which could be down to a number of reasons or people. At present, we don’t even know if it is incompetence or dishonesty, or who, if anyone is responsible.

  3. galamcennalath says:

    Also …

    “the list of founding members: former Scottish Socialist Party MSPs Carolyn Leckie and Rosie Kane and SNP activists, Isobel Lindsay, Jeane Freeman … ”

    I believe Jeane Freeman was not an “SNP activist” at the time when WFI were founded.

  4. Kathy says:

    Erm, Stu, “Is £30,000 [b]un[/b]accounted for?” surely?

  5. Macart says:

    And the unchecked misinformation, conflation and inflammation by the media continues.

    Trial by media.

    They wonder why their readerships are jumping ship?


  6. schrodingers cat says:

    isn’t this a libel against you rev?

  7. annie says:

    Hope Garavelli is reading this with a very red face after having all her errors pointed out to her.

  8. BrianW says:

    Another classy MSM smear campaign. I’m all for folk facing consequences for any PROVEN wrong doing. This article is, for me, just more evedince of the MSM repeatedly churning out the same guff day in day out. The guff stays the same. The target changes in name only. Wonder how many dustbins they’ve dug through in the hope of adding some nuanced insight to any of these vendettas.

    The more you see unsubstantiated pish passing as journalism day in day out the more you ignore it and it’s rabid author – well for me anyway.

  9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Erm, Stu, “Is £30,000 [b]un[/b]accounted for?” surely?”


  10. Brian Powell says:

    What remains of Scotsman’s ‘reputation’ teetering on spindle thin legs.

  11. gordoz says:

    Seems journalism in Scotland died a long time ago and we’re just finding out how completely useless it is in hard copy format now.

    Can anyone name more than 2 or 3 remaining MSM / TV journalists without clear Unionist affiliations ?

    They don’t even practice the pretence of being impartial in any way anymore.

    God knows what visitors make of Scotland, with an obvious political landscape of SNP domination, so at odds with the establishment Labo/Tory media.
    This place is a complete mess and there seems to be nothing we can do about it.

  12. Bob Mack says:

    If you want to spend my contribution on a week of debauchery in Amsterdam then bloody well do it Rev.
    I am not interested in what you do as long as you continue your great work.

    I hope to God when all this muck in which Journalists now live and ply their trade is cleared, that someone will sue the arse off them.

  13. Jamie says:

    I would like to hear from someone from WFI to hear their side of the story. I suspect many people no longer get their news from mainstream media anymore and so the only info is gained from WOS or Bella. What is actually going on? The only thing certain is that the MSM story has more holes than a golf course. (Was going to say brothel, but it’s Sunday after all). Any chance WOS can get WFI to share their story? I for one don’t watch UK news or read UK newspapers anymore they are just far too negative and full of lies, bad for your health in my opinion. I now rely on WOS for the bulk of my Scottish news.

  14. Knowing that Davidson and Rimmer did not stand down why did the two S.N.P. Mps stand down?

  15. K1 says:

    They just hand out crayons to the wee boys and girls in these papers wi a colouring in book, and they can’t even stay within the lines even then.

    Honestly even the pretendy public interest value is transparent pish.

    It’s very clear though that those employed are jumped up ‘sweetie wifies’ wi not an ounce of self awareness. I’d be embarrassed to be the author of such a blatantly obvious anti SNP diatribe such as this.

    But I suppose that very lack of self awareness precludes any possibility of embarrassment. Just writin’ whit their telt by their maisters: what good little boys and girls they are, do they get more pocket money for ‘cobbling’ rumours together to produce this shit?

    This isn’t journalism, it’s infantilism.

  16. gordoz says:

    Garavelli was on the BBC radio this morning commenting on the papers but don’t know if anyone commented about this story.

    (Had an annoying voice anyway so stopped listening; as knew it would drift into unionism at some point; since she writes for SoS).

  17. gordoz says:

    Pretty big ‘give away’ in writing style that Garavelli only showed pics of SNP and no pics whatsoever or branding of WFI at all !!

  18. arthur thomson says:

    In case there are any doubts, any money that I have contributed to Wings has been on the basis of the sheer pleasure I have experienced from reading the work of Stu and his colleagues and from reading the comments of other Wings contributors. It was money for services rendered, not an expectation of what may happen in the future. Thank you everyone.

    Any money I contributed to WFI was on the same basis and I have no regrets whatsoever.

    Anyone who has ever worked with small sums of money in a pressurised situation will know that accounting for these small sums is a right hassle. If someone got their knickers in a twist then that is a pity but not the end of the world and as a small contributor I hope the police will give this short shrift and get onto more important matters. I will support the SNP, Wings and WFI – not uncritically but acknowledging that people make daft mistakes.

  19. Geoff Huijer says:

    Surprised they didn’t tag it with a Saltire mocked up as a Swastika really.

    But, they already did that during IndyRef didn’t they…

    Contemptuous drivel as usual. *Tick Tock*

  20. Brian Powell says:

    Davidson didn’t stand down because they she thought they had won at all levels, not just the Referendum. They thought Yes, SNP, Independence would just fold. They thought there would be no real comeback. The press didn’t pursue it.

  21. Fairliered says:

    Is there enough evidence to sue the pants of the Scotsman and hopefully put it out of business?
    If so, I would be up for a crowdfunder.

  22. dakk says:

    ‘Ruth Davidson questioned by police … Marie Rimmer arrested and charged with physically assaulting a member of the public …’

    Ah,but they are Unionists,these were mere peccadilloes,if you are a Brit.

    Remember.They are The People.

    Or the ‘real people of Scotland’ as Gordon Brown boomed in his Maryhill BritNat oratory,before the referendum.

    And what are we but mere robots,or at best insurgents to be controlled or persecuted.

  23. Robert Louis says:

    Due to a complete and utter lack of any kind of ‘POSITIVE CASE FOR THE UNION’, the unionist media apparatchiks have now taken to just smearing ANYBODY associated with independence instead. They seem to think this will stem the tide of public opinion in Scotland, which every day grows more in favour of independence.

    It would be sad, if it wasn’t so utterly pathetic. It would seem the owners of the laughingly titled ‘Scotsman’ newspaper, and SoS, are intent on killing their own newspaper, bit by bit.

    Meanwhile, in the real world, away from the anti Scotland nonsense they print, Johnson press shares continue to fall. The owners of the laughingly titled ‘Scotsman’ publications, really are the newspaper equivalent of turkeys voting for Christmas.

    I will celebrate the day SoS (which unforgivably turned the Saltire into a nazi symbol during the referendum), and the ‘Scotsman, both bite the dust. From what I have heard, it won’t be long now.

    ‘Journalistic’ dinosaurs, soon to be extinct. Good.

  24. Walter Scott says:

    Does anyone know SoS circulation these days? The Scotsman comments under almost all articles are full of angry people being beastly towards the SNP. It would seem Gravelli is only doing what’s expected of her. It sounds like the death rattle of SoS & Scotsman

  25. gus1940 says:

    Correct me if I am wrong but in spite of The Great McGarry Smear Sensation having been on the go for nearly a week I cannot recall there having been a single direct statement from or interview with any named member of the WFI Committee.

    Everything reported to date would appear to be pure negative speculation.

  26. arthur thomson says:

    @Blair Paterson 1.27pm

    In my opinion the SNP has the right approach on this. It is very unpleasant for the person who is being accused but I think that the system is good in principle. The SNP can be seen, by any objective person, to be an organisation of substance and a suitable political party to be in government. This is in stark contrast to the disfunctional unionist parties.

  27. Ken500 says:

    WfI is a shambles. If the figures which are being quoted in the Press are correct, there is no money missing. In fact the Account is over. More is in the account than has been taken in or spent. There must be outstanding invoices.

    If the figures being quoted in the Press are correct. The Accounts are over not under.

    Just another attempt by so called Indepence supporters to go running to the press criticise the SNP without any substance. There is a lot of resentment an jealousy. For an Editor not to add up the figures before publishing this nonsense is totally irresposible. The Press can’t count or understand elementary Maths but just want to print rubbish. No wonder They are going down the pans. A total waste of time and money. When this is sorted ou, let’s hope there is a Crowdfunder to sue the Press. Is that the only way they can be held to account. Loss of earning and funds. They are a disgrace. WFI are a fifth column. A disgrace. A total shambles. They are an affront to women.

  28. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “isn’t this a libel against you rev?”

    It’s carefully worded so as not to be actionable. You could argue a borderline case but it’d be a struggle.

  29. arthur thomson says:

    Dysfunctional even!

  30. Ken500 says:

    ‘Carolyn Leckie’ and Rosie Kane’ says it all.

  31. Neil Cook says:

    It would be prudent of the University examination boards to review the Msm journalists degrees as surely with the standard they are publishing in Scotland is that plagiarism is rife and there final papers should be checked fir accuracies as most of these clowns are incapable of being a journalist and in reality taken money under false pretences. Same for Gordon Brewer today when questioning 2 panelists today who were ridiculing Labour tried his best to give out the SNP BADD policy again. I actually thought he was going to wet himself with the squirming and fidgeting when the wouldn’t take him on!! Best comedy moment of the day so far !!

  32. r esquierdo says:

    Why did a member of WFI report this to the police?Could this not have been dealt with inhouse?Is there sour grapes or petty jealously at work here?

  33. John H. says:

    Up until now I haven’t contributed anything to WFI. I will now. They need our support, and not just financially.

  34. heedtracker says:

    This isn’t merely another SNP bad thing from this crew, it’s a full on fundamental assault on our evolving Scottish democracy in its totality.

    Red tories UKOK obviously want their Scotland region back but its going to be interesting, to say the least, to see if this kind of attack propaganda helps or hinders them.

    It probably would have once upon a time, when BBC etc ruled the air waves. Last year, Hootsman creep show daubed a swastika on the flag of Scotland for fcuks sake.

  35. K1 says:

    I think Blair that the SNP have people of principle populating the party and knowing that the ‘media monstering’ is what the true problem is, their MP’s have stood down to deflect from the party.

    As we can see it makes no difference, they, the media contort that into ‘division within the SNP’, which it isn’t. It’s so utterly blatant what is happening here, it’s outright propaganda that we are subjected to.

    I’m afraid until the utter hypocrisy of smearing SNP’s MP’s with no evidence of any wrong doing is matched by the reporting of Labour and Tory MP’s who have actually been reported for allegedly assaulting a member of the public, or who have been questioned by the police regarding polling outcomes before the votes are counted on the 18th September 2014. We are left utterly helpless in the face of these press campaigns against the SNP.

    In my opinion the Labour and Tory wrongdoings are being ‘spiked’ by their press officers.

    It’s a ‘One Media Sate’. That we are living in.

  36. Ruby says:

    I wonder if this story

    ‘Dani Garavelli: what future for Women for Independence?’

    is the start of the monstering of ‘Women for Independence’

    I think WFI may have made a huge mistake.
    It would be interesting to know who made the decision to go to the police & press.

    How come WFI are so quiet?

  37. Foonurt says:

    ‘Warmonger’, yoan’s mair lik ah paper frunt-page heidline.

  38. wulls says:

    ” failing to provide receipts and invoices relating to campaign expenditure”
    I’m not seeing anything carefully worded here Stu…..
    If he had added “on time” the story would have has some factual basis.
    The IPCC tend to focus on major wording, in this case “failing” and “provide”
    It is exceptionally poor writing from a ( supposedly) trained journalist.
    If he had added the “on time” line at the end and made it a longer sentence readers would only pick up the “failing to provide” bit as the longer a sentence goes on the less impact the disclaimer has.
    The damage would have been done without any recourse.
    Not this tit though.
    There is not a disclaimer in the article that would hold weight in an IPCC complaint. But that has to come from WFI.
    Wings, I suspect, is in line for the fine being paid sans crowd funding…….
    Go for it.

  39. ArtyHetty says:

    Getting really sickened by the lies from the corpse media. I really hope people ignore this tripe.
    I will check out how many of these rags are left on the shelves later, many a time you can see piles of SoS just sitting there all day, just waiting to be shredded.

    I watched John Pilger on the state of affairs regards Syria, among some of the things he says, excellent as usual, he is completely scathing of the right and left wing rags in ukok, as well as the bbc and says it has reached a new low, he seems very worried by that fact.

  40. Chitterinlicht says:

    The hypocrisy of tories,labour and Unionist press is sickening.

    We have come along way though and Wings has played a major part in opening our eyes.

  41. R-type Grunt says:

    Garavelli is a liar. She was on the radio this morning, lying. Scottish journalism is dead.

  42. K1 says:

    Aye well, ‘Sate’ is missing a ‘t’. But ‘sate’ could be appropriate tae 😉

  43. Ruby says:

    Ken500 says:
    29 November, 2015 at 1:54 pm

    Just another attempt by so called Indepence supporters to go running to the press criticise the SNP without any substance.

    Ruby replies

    ‘Independence Now’ supporters like Alex Bell similar to
    Labour supporters like John McTiernan.

    This whole thing looks to me as if there was someone within WFI who wanted to damage the SNP and destory WFI.

    It would be really good to have some names find out who made the decision to go to the police/press.

    I don’t expect to get that info from The Scotsman or The Herald it could be the person within WFI got paid by the press to do the dirty.

  44. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I’m not seeing anything carefully worded here Stu…..
    If he had added “on time” the story would have has some factual basis.”

    She. Dani is a woman.

    But SoS could argue that the “failure” was the failure to deliver the invoices by the deadline. That did happen, whether or not they were delivered later. It’s misleading, but not absolutely technically untrue.

  45. Ken500 says:

    Twa unelected, unelectable half wits who can’t count. They even destroyed their own political Party and got the Leader sent to prison because of a load of lies to the Press.

    They don’t speak for women all they are interested in themselves and some cheap publicity stunts. Egos bigger than any intellect. Self destructive. They cut off their nose to spite their face and don’t think things through.

  46. Cath says:

    “Sturgeon and her cabinet must be nervously wondering how many other skeletons might fall out of the collective closet;”

    Translation: hopefully we’ve got those bastards worried about which random SNP woman we in the unionists hunting pack will pick on next to hound with defamations and a with a load of made up, hysterical nonsense. Aren’t we bloody clever?

  47. heedtracker says:

    I watched John Pilger on the state of affairs regards Syria, among some of the things he says, excellent as usual, he is completely scathing of the right and left wing rags in ukok, as well as the bbc and says it has reached a new low, he seems very worried by that fact.

    They destroyed the independence campaign in Scotland last year.

    That’s real power, in the hands of very well rewarded henchman.

  48. heedtracker says:

    Another red tory henchman piles in while the going is good

    Blair McDougall Retweeted
    The Sunday Post ?@Sunday_Post 4h4 hours ago
    SNP will continue to bank tens of thousands from taxpayer for scandal-hit MPs

    “Scandal hit” is pretty good UKOK wise.

    The more UKOK shit these guys can smear all over Scottish democracy, the more they’ll deter Scottish voters getting interested, they wish.

  49. Robert Peffers says:

    @Blair Paterson says: 29 November, 2015 at 1:27 pm:

    “Knowing that Davidson and Rimmer did not stand down why did the two S.N.P. Mps stand down?”

    Honesty, and a strong desire not to harm the party”.

  50. tarisgal says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    29 November, 2015 at 1:54 pm

    “isn’t this a libel against you rev?”

    It’s carefully worded so as not to be actionable.

    Please, O/T in a way, perhaps. Sorry about that but – not being au fait with Libel or Slander laws, I was just wondering how that works? SoS said “Last month, independence activist Stuart Campbell, who also raised money through Crowdfunding, was fined £750 by the Electoral Commission for failing to provide receipts and invoices relating to campaign expenditure.”

    But that is patently untrue. You DID provide those receipts and invoices and there is proof that that is so, therefore their statement is a lie. And knowing that that was a blatant lie, it follows that that statement was deliberately designed to mislead the public into believing that you too had misappropriated your crowdfunded funds, and you did not have the appropriate paperwork to account for said funds. In effect, they are lumping you into the ‘SNP BAD’ meme whereby all SNP/supporters are criminals and just out to fleece the voters, steal public donations and are doing God knows what with them!

    Is that not grounds for libel? Surely they are making false statements with the intention to lead their readers into believing something totally inaccurate? Also giving a false picture of your campaign fund management and thus seriously maligning your reputation?

    It just strikes me that if it IS grounds for suing, then you should do so. It really is unfair that a news media is allowed to be such liars without being called out on it.

    You do a great job in taking media lies apart! Your reputation for that speaks for itself, I know. But I think we would all just LOVE to see MSM pulled up for once for their blatant lying in support of their blatant union bias!

    Sorry for taking this off topic, but I enjoyed your analysis of this whole WFI issue. I analyse what I read but I’m not always confident about my conclusions (not always knowing the ins and outs of British law) and I’m always happier when I find I’ve come to the same conclusion as you have because I KNOW your analysis is always pretty spot on. Thanks for this.

  51. galamcennalath says:

    One of the big strengths of groups like WFI during IndyRef1 was that they were not party political. This was hugely valuable. Among other things the CorpMedia and BBC were trying to simplify the campaign into ‘Alex Salmond &SNP’ versus everyone else, and groups like WFI snookered this approach. I have no doubt they converted many to the cause quite independently of other groups.

    I contributed before, and I will contribute again.

    I now wonder if a bit of party politics has crept into WFI. If you are from a party other than the SNP, human nature could readily lead to envy!

  52. Ruby says:

    John H. says:
    29 November, 2015 at 2:11 pm
    Up until now I haven’t contributed anything to WFI. I will now. They need our support, and not just financially.

    Ruby replies

    I doubt if many people will be donating to WFI. They may get invited to give talks to Unionist organisation now that they have given the Unionists so much ammunition although judging by Alex Bell’s fund raiser which seems to be stuck at 10% Unionists are never very grateful.

  53. Lollysmum says:

    I tend to give quite a bit to crowdfunders because I realise they are dependent on our support to achieve whatever is their aim. I don’t begrudge that money & I don’t want them to account for every penny to me either.

    If I didn’t trust them to use it for their stated purposes or in pursuit of their aims then I wouldn’t give in the first place.

    The corporate media has no understanding of people trusting others to do as they say they will. They want us to mistrust everyone else (refugees welcome)-well guess what-I can’t be like that. We are social beings & in the main we do trust each other. Sometimes that trust is abused but the law of averages says we will get caught out at some point.

    The broadcasters & associated media lie to us day in day out with nary a break so if they are pushing us to believe something then I know it’s not worth even listening or reading because though it might have a kernel of truth they will blow it out of all proportion as they’ve done with Michelle Thomson, Natalie McGarry & WFI.

    For the first one that wants to sue any press outlets for these lies, I have £1,000 just sitting there waiting for your crowdfunder & nothing would give me greater pleasure than to support your efforts.

    Corporate media STFU!

    We don’t need you & your skewed stories to poison the environment we live in anymore.

  54. Zen Broon says:

    I doubt any of these “writers” are interested in journalism any more. Just propaganda mouthpieces for the Nawbag Empire that currently runs Scotland.

  55. heedtracker says:

    Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall 16m16 minutes ago
    That thing where you’re off to the shops & the Scottish Republican Socialist Movement are parading in uniform at end of your street.

    This unemployed man needs a job but in the meantime, “the thing” what upsets his joblessness the most? democracy, in the region he thought he’d got back under UKOK control.

    Funny how democracy never really does what you tell it too, once your covers blown.

  56. HandandShrimp says:

    If, or more probably when, the Thompson and McGarry stories are long past being used to wrap chips will any of these journalists write an article on “Why do so many journalists get it wrong?”

    Answers on a postcard please.

    I heard David Clegg on the radio this morning. He was surprisingly circumspect about the whole McGarry story.

  57. Paul Larsen says:

    British journalism will never recover from this type of reporting, the MSM’s propeganda isn’t fooling the amount of people it used to. Thank feck for sites like this telling it how it is.

  58. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ruby says: 29 November, 2015 at 2:16 pm:

    ” … It would be interesting to know who made the decision to go to the police & press.”

    Far as I can decipher, Ruby, the only quoted source is described as, “Unnamed”, and has not even been described as, “a source close to …”.

    For all we know it could be the wee lassie who makes the tea and puts our the bins on bin day.

    Until such time as the police make a statement that they have passed the results of their investigations to the Procurators Fiscal and the Procurators Fiscal state criminal proceedings are to take place then there is no criminal acts and no official accusations of criminal acts.

    It remains just a rumour of a suspected discrepancy of an as yet unspecified sum of cash.

  59. Robert Peffers says:


    Looks like Scotland is about to win their first ever Davis Cup.
    Yup! They just did.

  60. Scottish brothers take on the world to win the Davis Cup.

  61. Marco McGinty says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Looks like Scotland is about to win their first ever Davis Cup.
    Yup! They just did.

    Aye. Scottish players were responsible for every single match win, bar one.

  62. Fireproofjim says:

    Davis Cup
    Scotland 3 Belgium 1
    That makes us World Champions.

  63. One_Scot says:

    A bit disappointed that Andy buckled to the flag pressure.

  64. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi wulls.

    You typed,
    “Wings, I suspect, is in line for the fine being paid sans crowd funding…”

    You’re a tad late…

  65. Dan Huil says:

    Yet another example of BritNat prejudice. I can’t wait for these rancid rags to go under.

  66. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi wulls.

    Apologies – misunderstood your post.


  67. heedtracker says:

    Scottish athletes win Davis Cup for the UK, no BBC commentator mentions the word Scottish.

  68. Valerie says:

    As others have commented, I hope SNP are just keeping their powder dry, for the best time, to drag one of these cases into court for defamation. Your name is your reputation, and I would be apoplectic at being accused of thievery.

    Meantime, Angus Robertson is picked out as the real star of PMQs, Hosie talking pure sense on Marr, and McNeil speaking to the Brewery.

    Sturgeon has just announced, Scotland will be working with the UN to teach Syrian women about peaceful negotiations within their communities.

  69. Onwards says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    29 November, 2015 at 3:03 pm

    Looks like Scotland is about to win their first ever Davis Cup.
    Yup! They just did.


    Great result for the Murray brothers.
    Some of the best ambassadors for this country.
    And for independence. They demonstrate there doesn’t have to be a conflict between supporting independence and having a joint Scottish and British cultural identity.
    These are the type of people we need to convince to vote yes.

  70. ronnie anderson says:

    @Rev. [The Scotsman has form in defaming Wings Over Scotland, and we’d advise it to tread very carefully about what it implies].

    Noo thats fighting talk Stu,but ah like it,as ah reach intae ma pocket,hud oan ah seen them duck must hiv thought ah wis drawin ma guns awwrity Padre.

  71. Marco McGinty says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Looks like Scotland is about to win their first ever Davis Cup.
    Yup! They just did.

    And the coach is Scottish as well!

    But listening to Sue Barker and the rest of UK media, it would appear that James Ward’s only victory in the first round, was the one that really clinched the trophy.

  72. ArtyHetty says:

    Oh my, well what do you know, just looked up Davis cup and top of search is ebc, ‘A.Murray wins
    Davis cup for…(wait for it) GREAT BRITAIN’. Ta daaaa. Great is not a word I would use for ukok, the ebc propoganda is just staggeringly obvious! So glad not to have been giving them a penny for years now.

  73. Big jock says:

    Couldn’t care less about Davis Cup. Genuinely have no feelings for team GB. Detest the anthem,flag and hingers on they now call the Barmy Army! Hang on that’s what they call the English cricket fans. So it’s really team England.

  74. Auld Rock says:

    You know the old song, “There’ll always be an England SO LONG AS SCOTLAND IS THERE!!!!”

    True Headline for Tomorrow’s unionist press, “SCOTLAND WINS DAVIS CUP”. Oooops I’m dreaming again.

    Auld Rock

  75. Breeks says:

    This is no different from the monstering of Alex Salmond over the lie that never was.

    It is pernicious propaganda, and if, and hopefully when the victims of it can clear their names, enough damage will already be done.

    Our enemies have no moral compass when it comes to discrediting the SNP or pro-independence bodies. They even seem proud of their lack of integrity.

    It is surely the business of the Courts to address the way this manipulation, indeed exploitation of the law concerning defamation is impacting on Scottish politics. What is the point in having our own legal system if it is impotent when looking after Scotland’s best interests and standards of honesty and integrity?

  76. Famous15 says:

    The Unionist Media have cried wolf once too often. Their lies about the Indy Movement and the SNP is having the unintended consequence of showing Unionism as evil and untrustworthy.

    Scotland deserves better than UKOK chancers.

  77. Robert Peffers says:

    @Onwards says: 29 November, 2015 at 3:18 pm:

    “Great result for the Murray brothers.
    Some of the best ambassadors for this country.
    And for independence. They demonstrate there doesn’t have to be a conflict between supporting independence and having a joint Scottish and British cultural identity.

    I would go further than that, Onwards.

    They demonstrate the idiotic practice of wrongly conflating the terms, “United Kingdom”, and, “British/Britain”.

    British means all eight countries in the British Isles. The United Kingdom only includes for of those countries but is in fact British but no more British than the three non-UK Crown Protectorates nor the republic.

    If indeed the United Kingdom does end by Scotland returning to independence the Status Quo Ante means the United Kingdom ends and both its component kingdoms return to the pre-Treaty status of independent British Kingdoms.

    “These are the type of people we need to convince to vote yes”.

    I believe they already do. In Andy’s case he stated clearly he was for independence.

  78. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Pillars said that the SNP was full of fellow travellers.

    W F I ?

    I bet a few more revelations to come out, paced between now and May 2016.

  79. yesindyref2 says:

    Tangentially there’s an article in the Sunday Herald which is starting a campaign to have the “libel laws” (defamation) in Scotland relaxed the same way as they did in England and Wales in 2013. It mentions WoS as a beneficiary of this.

    I disagree, strongly. There’s enough invasion into personal lives by an irresponsible media, now they want to remove such little recourse as punters like myself might have, if the media decided to persecute me for some reason.

    I guess such defamation relaxtion could apply to media against media, with perhaps the printed media having the advantage over the online media. Well, get lost, SH.

    Coincidentally there’s a continuation of the persecution of Sheridan, via a security guy.

  80. Clootie says:

    Britnats will sling mud with greater and greater effort now. They need to push “SNP bad” as hard as possible now.

    Journalism is dead. A victim of unionist drive to protect the final remains of the Empire. The loss of Scotland threatens their position on the Worlds stage, the flag and their income therefore cannot be tolerated.

  81. Macart says:


    Nice one. 😀 LOL

  82. Clydebuilt says:

    Rev. St . . . Have you seen page 11 of today’s Sunday Herald…. “Scottish new media websites under threat from outdated libel laws”‘. W.oS gets a mention

    Just seen Scotland Win The Davies Cup

  83. Rob James says:

    Another piece of mind numbing unionist bollocks , full of inaccuracies, speculative numerical assumptions and a whole prosecution case based on hearsay, (from an unnamed source).

    If our two MP’s are cleared and reinstated, the public will start to turn a blind eye to any future smears.

    It would appear that the unionists are not acquainted with ‘the boy who cried wolf’ parable.

  84. Clydebuilt says:

    What’s to stop the National front page proclaiming Scotland Wins Davis Cup

  85. Jim Lynch says:

    One of my favourite sayings from the Late Oliver Brown is “All a man needs in life is a good cause and the enmity of the Glasgow Herald and he can be assured that if he has the first the second will automatically follow”

    As years roll by, this mantle has passed to the Scotsman and associates.

  86. Socrates MacSporran says:

    This is about sport.

    One of the things we Independence supporters repeatedly have to deal with is the accusation we are: “Anti-English”; then, when things happen, such as Great Britain’s Davis Cup win – you get a few nut cases on here, doing their best to give the BUMS ammunition for their “Anti-English” claims.

    “Great Britain” is the title chosen for the team which represents the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in this (and other) international competitions.

    The GB lawn tennis team is chosen and run by The Lawn Tennis Association, a body which operates right across the UKoGB&NI.

    Unlike the football associations and rugby unions for instance, the LTA is a genuinely pan-UK organisation. Yes, some players such as the Murray Brothers are Scottish, and deserve to be identified as such, just as Kyle Edmonds is identified as a Yorkshireman. But, in the case of this sport an this team, it is a genuinely all-British organisation.

    Also, to be fair, the greater proportion of the funding for the team comes from England. Much as I would love to see the Murrays representing an Independent Scotland internationally, the fact is, they might well struggle to get the same level of funding as the pan-UK nature of the LTS ensures. And the same argument could be used for some of our Olympians in other sports.

    But, as things stand, the Murrays are representing the whole of the UK, and, while we may not like “The Butcher’s Apron” and what it stands for in some instances, it’s the correct flag for Andy Murray to wave in celebrating a Team GB win – get over it.

  87. SOG says:

    One day one of these slack lazy journos may actually write something sufficiently innaccurate and biased that the paper gets hit so hard, and the innocent victim ends up owning the business. I live in hope.

  88. Bob Mack says:

    Andy Murray wins the Davis Cup for team GB,and is already the subject of vile internet abuse because he is Scottish.

    Feeeeeelllll the Luuvvvv!!!!

  89. K1 says:

    Fair point Scorates, still pressed ‘mute’ when the anthem was sung though. 🙂

  90. One_Scot says:

    Get over it.

    Get over what, the fact that Andy felt compelled he had to drape himself in British Nationalism to please the knuckle draggers. Seriously are you for real.

  91. K1 says:

    Aye Bob saw Rev’s twitter, shower of ingrates. There’s yer hate crowd richt there.

  92. yesindyref2 says:

    I totally agree of course, and a timely post from you.

    Didn’t stop me after my wife said “that’s the first time Britain have won since 1936”, saying “you mean Scotland!”.

    Ho hum.

  93. HandandShrimp says:

    Andy Murray wins the Davis Cup for team GB,and is already the subject of vile internet abuse because he is Scottish.

    Aye the haters will always hate. However, a lot of decent English people telling them to wind their necks in.

  94. Jake Gittes says:

    This item from the failing Johnston press entity does not surprise me. Something similar was attempted by them and others during the Michelle Thomson affair.

    The difference here is the attack on you Stuart and as others have said I do not care what you do with fundraiser cash because I and other Wingers know you will use it well. Your contribution to the Independence cause is unique.

    Check though on the legality of the claims they make. It would be too delicious if it happened again.

  95. caz-m says:

    Well done Scotland on winning this year’s Davis Cup.

    I personally thought the Rangers fans in the crowd went a tad over the top, but boys will be boys.

  96. Fireproofjim says:

    Socrates MacSporran
    Well said. You are right. The Davis cup is the only World trophy the Murrays can play in and it is a Home Nations cup. Like the rugby Lions (or, for Europe, like the Ryder Cup.)
    We don’t object to the European flag being waved at the golf, so for Davis Cup the only correct flag is the Union Flag.
    The Murrays are both pro Yes and no doubt would love to play for an independent Scotland!, but for the moment don’t let us be grudging about this great win.

  97. Marcia says:

    If I suspect these allegations are false, should the person who started this be prosecuted for wasting police time?

  98. HandandShrimp says:

    should the person who started this be prosecuted for wasting police time?


    I don’t think it is a prosecution yet. It is just an investigation to see if there is any wrong doing (as is the case with Thompson) There may be no report to the Fiscal’s office in either case or none that involves either MP. If that were to be the case both MPS would resume the whip and various journalists and MSPs would be chewing wasps.

    Plain incompetence and poor book keeping are not crimes in themselves although if any of them were qualified accountants they might be reported to their professional body and lose their accreditation. If none of them were finance professionals then it is a warning to other bodies. Keeping track of expenditure is not as easy as it might sound and that is why businesses employ accountants.

  99. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    Who is to say that they were not from a similar org?

    Left wing orgs in UK have longtime been infiltrated. Ask Jim Sillars.

  100. Bill McDermott says:

    Rev. Whether or not this piece by Garavelli is actionable, I think you should submit a letter to demolish and demoralise said journalist.

    These people get away with rubbish because few people pick them up on it – you being the exception. They might not publish it of course, but that just helps them to dig the hole a wee bit deeper.

  101. Dr Jim says:

    It must annoy the Scottish media they can’t just sit on the Labour benches

    Save the emails and phone calls

    Andy Murray has no right to be Scottish or his rotten brother or his rotten coach or lots of them, it should have been the chicken man or somebody else anybody else who’s not Scottish

    Aah the Yoonion int it great

    SNP/SNP Heh Heh Heh !!

  102. broonpot says:

    I trust the Scotsman as much as I would trust a partially sighted & toothless rabid dog.

  103. Luigi says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    29 November, 2015 at 4:42 pm

    “Plain incompetence and poor book keeping are not crimes in themselves…..”

    Just as well, otherwise the jails would be stuffed full of MPs.

  104. Luigi says:

    Clydebuilt says:
    29 November, 2015 at 3:57 pm

    What’s to stop the National front page proclaiming Scotland Wins Davis Cup

    A NO vote.

    Aye, things could have been so different!

  105. Socrates MacSporran says:


    Nice to see the Scottish Women’s team beating Macedonia 10-0, a winning start for the controversial new pink strip.

    Just think, if we really were Scottish Nazis, we would have Andy and Jamie Murray being mated with the likes of Jennifer Beattie, Rachel Corsie, Jane Ross or Jo Love, to produce the next generation of great Scots.

    And why cannot our Men’s team play as well as our Women?

  106. stonefree says:

    @ K1 2:16 pm
    Couldn’t agree more

  107. David says:

    Why don’t we just ignore all that non-news and celebrate today, the day that Scotland won the Davis Cup 🙂

  108. heedtracker says:

    Predictable, so freakin predictable. BBC vote SLab Scotland absolutely horrifying bias for SLab and then poor little r4 gets it from Lab.

    “Clive Lewis, who was elected MP for Norwich South in May, said a series of vox-pop interviews used by Radio 4’s Today programme were “so one-sided it was an absolute outrage”.

    In a heated exchange with the presenter Nick Robinson, he added: “The leading questions that were in that report were quite outrageous.”

    Strap on a pair Clive, Nic Robinson’s probably one of the most ferocious toryboys since ever.

    And that’s why the BBC hire these delights of far right British broadcasting creepiness, with head office like this no doubt

  109. Tony Little says:

    @Socrates MacSporran

    And why cannot our Men’s team play as well as our Women?

    Because (in this case at least) the Macedonian men’s team is considerably better than their women’s team. The Men’s side has a number of decent players but their inability so far has been in sustaining a performance for a full 90 minutes. (I am currently living/working in Macedonia)

    This has been echoed in some of the performances by Scotland in recent years.

  110. David McDowell says:

    The real purpose of this SOS article is to try to erode trust in crowdfunding.


    1. Hate how crowdfunding is being used to counteract Unionist propaganda and hold lying politicians to account (especially in the Carmichael case).

    2. Are shit scared that crowdfunding media and legal cases will become an even more widespread phenomenon than it is now.

    I mean, it’s giving the damned blighters all sorts of ideas!

    What this tells me is we should be crowdfunding as many new projects as possible.
    It is pissing the Unionists off big time.

  111. The SNP have shot themselves in the foot over the Natalie McGarry and Michelle Thomson situations. By having them resign the whip it looks like they’re both guilty of something – at least that’s how it’ll look to a SCUM (Scottish Unionist Media) reader. Of course “they may well be innocent” to use Brian Taylor’s words, but at the moment they’re effectively guilty.

    The party should have stood firm and faced this down by saying, “We’ll withdraw the whip when they’re actually charged with something or are the subject of a formal police investigation.”

    They would’ve been able to say this every time it was brought up in an interview, and let’s face it, there’d be numerous opportunities. They then could’ve added a dig about Ruth Davidson and the Labour wifie whose name I can’t remember and can’t be arsed scrolling back up to find out.

    Perception is everything and in the eyes of Joe Public this just means that “they’re aw the same”. Huge strategical error this IMHO.

  112. Ruby says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    29 November, 2015 at 3:01 pm
    @Ruby says: 29 November, 2015 at 2:16 pm:

    ” … It would be interesting to know who made the decision to go to the police & press.”

    Far as I can decipher, Ruby, the only quoted source is described as, “Unnamed”, and has not even been described as, “a source close to …”.

    It remains just a rumour of a suspected discrepancy of an as yet unspecified sum of cash.

    Ruby replies

    For all we know they may not even have gone to the police.
    They may not even have a discrepancy.

    HandandShrimp says:
    29 November, 2015 at 2:55 pm

    I heard David Clegg on the radio this morning. He was surprisingly circumspect about the whole McGarry story.

    Ruby replies
    Which programme was that on?

    TUT! I get annoyed when people don’t post links.
    A written transcript would be ideal but I’ll settle for a link.

    Rev taking action against The Scotsman

    Perhaps instead of taking any legal action Stuart should just dissect a Scotsman article everyday for a week.

    I kinda care what Wings does with donations because I think spending £3k on sweeties is a very bad idea I think membership of this amazing spa

    would be much better. That open air pool looks amazing.

  113. Marcia says:

    Bugger the Panda @4.45

    There have been numerous cases over the years. In the early 1950’s, the SNP London Branch had a police informer on the committee who passed on all meetings/members details to Special Branch.

  114. ahundredthidiot says:


    Well done Murray boys and team GB

    Andraboy is on the front line, who cares if he holds a Union Flag, because…

    We know the score
    Andy knows the score

    And slowly but surely, the Unionists will know the score, those who already do can’t contain their anger at us

    Let Team GB enjoy it while it lasts

  115. David McDowell says:

    Don’t be surprised if you now see the BUM going after other pro-independence crowdfunded projects. This is probably just the first shot across the bows.

    The new game is to blacken the name of anyone who uses crowdfunding to start or operate a pro-independence project. The BUM lowlifes are prepared to use any dirty trick in the book, as long as it protects their precious Union.

    It means the people running crowdfunded projects need to start publishing proper accounts showing where every penny is going. But even that won’t stop attempts to discredit them. The BUM are quite happy to conduct witch hunts backed up by nothing more than speculation and innuendo.

    Of course no such squeaky-clean standards will be demanded of pro-Union crowdfunding projects.

  116. ahundredthidiot says:

    Dave Beveridge@5:42

    You don’t need to agree but I would refer you to Arthur Thomson@1:53 who I think is spot on

    Your instincts from an SNP point of view is right, but we are already converted or been on side from day one, it is the soft No’s we need to win over.

    Think of it this way, SNP take no action and they’re guilty = huge set back.

    Or, they’re both innocent and welcomed back into the fold = huge respect.

  117. HandandShrimp says:


    It was Newsbeat or whatever the 9am show on Sunday is called on Radio Scotland. Clegg and a female whose name I didn’t catch reviewed the papers today. Usual time I think (9.20ish).

  118. Gary45% says:

    Shiterag on Sunday.
    Title says it all really,
    TICK TOCK another one about to bite the dust.

  119. galamcennalath says:

    David McDowell says:

    “Don’t be surprised if you now see the BUM going after other pro-independence crowdfunded projects. This is probably just the first shot across the bows.”

    The smearing of individuals has had no effect on voting intention, so perhaps they have shifted target. Discrediting crowd funding to reduce impact might be their latest ‘good idea’.

    Prediction? It will have no effect. They are up against a cause which is now close to a lot of people’s hearts. It has all moved up and beyond individuals or even organisations – Hope and faith that self determination can offer a better future.

  120. David McDowell says:

    O/T – In about five years time the British Empire will discover their true place in the hiererachy of world tennis, and they aren’t going to like it.
    Hopefully by that time Judy Murray & Co. will be coaching a new generation of young winners for the independent Scottish tennis team.

  121. David says:

    Macart wrote in a comment above, “Trial by media”.
    It would be equally correct to have written “Troll by media”.

    That’s what the corporate media is doing to independence supporters, trolling us. And they are doing it deliberately, every day, in every way, and they’re getting more and more blatant.

    They are not in the news business any more, they are in the propaganda business. Anti-Scotland propaganda.

  122. David McDowell says:

    galamcennalath at 6:18pm
    “Discrediting crowd funding to reduce impact might be their latest ‘good idea’.”

    Is there an echo in here?

  123. K1 says:

    Aye David (McDowell)…we’re aw psychically linked noo…the Unionists are well and truly fucked. 🙂


  124. Robert Peffers says:

    @Socrates MacSporran says: 29 November, 2015 at 4:02 pm:

    “This is about sport.”


    ” … One of the things we Independence supporters repeatedly have to deal with is the accusation we are: “Anti-English”

    So you have fallen victim to the Establishments most insidious form of propaganda, Socrates, and the rest of your diatribe bears that fact out quite explicitly.

    “then, when things happen, such as Great Britain’s Davis Cup win – you get a few nut cases on here, doing their best to give the BUMS ammunition for their “Anti-English” claims.”

    You, and they conflate the terms, in this case, “Great Britain”, and England. The definition of Great Britain is strictly, “The greatest”, (largest), island in the British Archipelago and that means only Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Yet the various erroneously titled, “Teams GB”, have often included members from the three Crown Dependencies and from also Northern Ireland which are not part of, “Great Britain”, but are part of Britain.

    So you are spouting Establishment propaganda.

    England is both a country and is also one of the two only two equally sovereign kingdoms that united in 1706/7 to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain. It that subsequently, upon Ireland’s partition, retitled itself the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    So therefore your attempted abuse and insultingly calling people, “Nut Cases”, makes you a propagator of Establishment propaganda.

    ““Great Britain” is the title chosen for the team which represents the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in this (and other) international competitions.”

    Wrong, Socrates the title, “Great Britain”, refers only to the biggest island of the British Isles and thus only represents Scotland Wales and England. Northern Ireland is NOT part of Great Britain.

    “The GB lawn tennis team is chosen and run by The Lawn Tennis Association, a body which operates right across the UKoGB&NI.”

    Exactly so, Socrates – it includes Northern Ireland which is not part of Great Britain, and it is quite impossible to be so, as N.I. is not part of the largest, (Greatest), island in Britain.

    Furthermore, the GB teams have included members from the Channel Island Bailiwicks which are also not parts of Great Britain.

    “Unlike the football associations and rugby unions for instance, the LTA is a genuinely pan-UK organisation.”

    Oops! Socrates, there you go again with your Establishment propaganda. “The United Kingdom”, is a union of only Two equally sovereign KINGDOMS which is why we call it the United Kingdom and, as such, it includes only the kingdoms of Scotland and England. Both Wales and Northern Ireland were both parts of the Kingdom of England in 1706/7 and neither are signatories of the Treaty of Union.

    “Yes, some players such as the Murray Brothers are Scottish, and deserve to be identified as such, just as Kyle Edmonds is identified as a Yorkshireman. But, in the case of this sport an this team, it is a genuinely all-British organisation.”

    Rubbish! First of all Yorkshire is part of both the country of England and part of the Kingdom of England. It is in no way comparable to Scotland which is both a country and a legally equal partner kingdom in the bipartite United Kingdom. Secondly the Lawn Tennis Association is, “NOT”, All British as it does NOT represent all parts of Britain (a.k.a. The British Isles).

    ” … But, as things stand, the Murrays are representing the whole of the UK”

    There you go again confusing the UK, Britain and Great Britain. These are factually all quite different entities and THAT is the Establishment Propaganda you persist in propagating on their, (the Establishment’s), behalf.

    One minute you are saying the team is Great Britain which is only the grestest/largest island and next you are claiming it represents all of Britain that includes both N.Ireland and the Republic of Ireland along with the three non-UK Crown Protectorates.

    “and, while we may not like “The Butcher’s Apron” and what it stands for in some instances, it’s the correct flag for Andy Murray to wave in celebrating a Team GB win – get over it.”

    The whole point is the Union Flag is only the flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland and that is only the two Royal Realms extant in the British Isles when they signed the Treaty of Union in 1706/7.

    It represents two KINGDOMS but that includes four countries as both Wales and Ireland were part of the Kingdom of England when the treaty was signed.

    The Union Flag, (Butcher’s Apron), is not the flag of all Britain as it does not include the two non-UK Bailiwicks, The Isle of Man nor the Republic of Ireland and it is not the Flag of Great Britain either as that is only Scotland Wales and England and thus is only the flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Now will you please stop doing the Establishments propaganda for them?

  125. David McDowell says:

    ahundredthidiot at 6:14pm
    “it is the soft No’s we need to win over.”

    I hope Wings crowdfunds a “Red, White and Blue Book” exposing all the lies and broken promises from the No-camp, targeted all the “soft No’s” in Scotland who are now losing their jobs thanks to Unionist betrayals.

  126. One_Scot says:

    What Robert says.

  127. heedtracker says:

    When will they target Mhairi Black?

    Doogie’s new show business career kicks off. It would all be fine and dandy if he wasn’t one of the SLab vote YES for bombing Iraq back to the stone with Gordon and Blair.

    Next up, Doogie does X Factor, I dreamed a dream of wars gone by, of UKOK rockets and bombs and bullets still to be fired, next week.

    Should get the Lords with this soon enough. They made up Lady Mone of Mayfair for UKOK’s sake!

  128. caz-m says:

    Whoever dares to stand up against the English Establishment is public enemy number one. Whether you’re Nicola Sturgeon or the Rev Stu.

    The Unionist Scottish media will fight you to the death defending the English Establishment.

    One of the worst examples of this was when Dougie Alexander got the Daily Record’s David Clegg to try and smear Mhairi Black before the General Election in May.

    Of course, they both failed miserably.

  129. Ruby says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    29 November, 2015 at 6:17 pm

    It was Newsbeat or whatever the 9am show on Sunday is called on Radio Scotland. Clegg and a female whose name I didn’t catch reviewed the papers today. Usual time I think (9.20ish).
    Ruby replies

    Found it! It was on Radio Biscuit

    Starts at: 01:22:57

    He talks about articles in The Sunday Times. Could be worth reading. I’m off to see if I can find these articles. No mention of The Scotsman article.

    I believe the woman is Dani Garabaldi the ‘journalist’ who wrote the article in The Scotsman.

    I did listen to Newsbeat but that was all about pop music, groping and Andy Murray. The presenter said:
    Andy Murray on court right now trying to give GB a ‘happy ending’ 😀

  130. Proud Cybernat says:

    This wee dig at crowdfunding sites is no accident. It is entirely deliberate. The Idiot Press and the State Broadcaster see the power such sites offer us and, also, the threat it presents to them.

    They also probably see a way of trying to undermine the ‘People v Carmichael’ campaign which looks like it is in need of more funding. (It cost a friend of mine £250,000 to take a case before the Court of Session). If they can starve this campaign of funds then they will force the campaigners to drop the case and will have won a PR coupe. Many people may then reconsider the merits of such sites. We cannot (and I know we will not) allow that to happen.

    The People v Carmichael campaign is a ‘beacon’ (as it were) to all supporters of truth and democracy in Scotland. Simply by us now having the ability to organise ourselves and are able to raise the considerable financial wherewithall to be able to hold the ‘Establishment’ to account in a court of Law – even if we don’t win the case – is why they are really fecking scared of us. Such a thing has never happened before. And it is only happening now because of crowdfunding.

    Before the internet and crowdfunding, it would have been virtually impossible for ordinary Scots to prosecute such a case against their MP. That we now have the means to do this at all, scares them shitless.

    Which is why they have to try and undermine crowdfunding and indy sites in general. And in that they will fail just as miserably as they are failing to halt the growing support for indy.

    That articles like this attempt to rubbish WoS and crowdfunding simply serves to tell us one thing people–we’re winning.

  131. carthannas says:

    David McDowell – sounds good to me!

  132. galamcennalath says:

    David McDowell says:

    “Is there an echo in here?”

    I was agreeing with you, but making the additional point that I believe they will fail because it is no longer about individuals, parties or organisations. 🙂

  133. Roboscot says:

    ‘The definition of Great Britain is strictly, “The greatest”, (largest), island in the British Archipelago and that means only Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.’

    ‘Great’ was used to distinguish the larger Britain from the smaller Britain we now call Britanny.

    ‘“Great Britain”, refers only to the biggest island of the British Isles’

    The Treaty of Union of 1707 gives the name Great Britain to the new state. This gives the phrase a new and additional meaning that includes all the islands of the new state.
    You acknowledge this yourself when you say:’the Lawn Tennis Association is, “NOT”, All British as it does NOT represent all parts of Britain (a.k.a. The British Isles).’

    ‘The whole point is the Union Flag is only the flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland and that is only the two Royal Realms extant in the British Isles when they signed the Treaty of Union in 1706/7.’

    The single kingdom of Great Britain created in 1707 was superseded by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1801. Ireland was a separate kingdom at the time, which is why the Irish flag was added to the Union Flag. The flag represents three kingdoms united into one. The Union Flag has not been altered since because part of the Irish kingdom – Northern Ireland – has remained part of the state.

  134. ahundredthidiot says:


    ‘Of course, they both failed miserably’

    Oh yes, and yet they never learn, I am almost embarrassed that this is all the MSM has to offer for such a prize as Scotland.

    We just need to grind out the yards, no one said it would be easy, but the people of Scotland are telling the establishment that their teas oot.

    I dare SoS and DR to do better!

    Bring on your wrecking ball cos we won’t going anywhere

  135. galamcennalath says:

    OT “At least 44 people were killed and scores wounded on Sunday in a suspected Russian air strike on a crowded marketplace in Idlib province… ”

    Nothing to do with ISIS.

    I can’t see anything on the BBC. Could that be because it doesn’t fit with the anti-ISIS agenda?

  136. Jim Morris says:

    Had two reflective moments over the weekend. First, I had two bottles to donate to help fundraise for Group 49 of HCPT. The first was a bottle of 12 year old blended whisky, the second a bottle of “British” cream sherry. I thought it a good example of INDEPENDENCE (the whisky) and Better Together (the BRITISH SHERRY). Second was the Davis Cup victory where 80% of the work was done by Scots and 100% of the points were won by Scots, then the commentators said this was as important as 1966, the English World Cup triumph.

  137. McDuff says:

    David Beveridge
    My thoughts entirely Dave, its time the SNP became a bit more assertive in defending itself and its people especially when they have not been charged with anything.
    I am sick of the “we are so reasonable“ attitude when this contrived muck from the MSM will stick with those who do not read Wings.

  138. Robert Kerr says:

    @Proud Cybernat

    I concur completely.

    Thanks for saving me the effort of typing.

    The Orkney 4 funding is utterly crucial.

    Dig deep as required WoS people.

  139. schrodingers cat says:

    I don’t like the guy and rarely agree with him, but
    this morning Galloway was spot on with his analysis of the me

    he was also correct about corbyn calling out his rebels

  140. Gary45% says:

    Totally agree, regarding wee Mhairi,
    I have already had to defend her in discussions with unionist arseholes.
    I would say you would not believe the diatribe thrown at her, but it is what we nationalists expect.

    The unionists are shi**ing themselves.
    When the abuse stops then we have to worry.
    According to Dreary Brewery on Sun Pol today we are now “the other lot”
    The other lot. x2
    What about making saltire/ kilt space hoppers,(nobody makes them) hint!!!!
    Imagine for a moment 3 million bouncy space hoppers out side Westminster when we get independence.
    Ah the drambers is starting to kick in.

  141. frogesque says:

    @ Proud Cybernat, Robert Kerr.

    Will dig as deep as I can this side of Christmas. However, come February and March I don’t have to find Council Tax for my humble abode so can keep that in reserve for the pot if still needed. Year is paid over 10 months so Feb, March are ‘free’.

    In this for the long haul and just to re-enforce the message, this is no short term gesture. The Orkney 4 deserve everyone’s support.

  142. Robert Louis says:

    Roboscot 724

    You are incorrect regarding the presence of the cross of St.Patrick on the union jack. Indeed, the Irish parliament following independence even debated asking for it to be removed, but decided it wasn’t worth the bother. It has nothing to do with N.Ireland remaining as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and N.Ireland.

  143. Robert Kerr says:


    It could well be that the judgement shall be favourable and a hint has escaped to our masters.

    Be of good cheer.

  144. Robert Peffers says:

    @ArtyHetty says: 29 November, 2015 at 3:20 pm

    ” … Great is not a word I would use for ukok, the ebc propoganda is just staggeringly obvious!”

    Very wise, ArtyHetty, for the term, “Great”, in this context refers only to that part of the British Isles that is situated upon the greatest, (biggest), island of the British Isles. This is a common geographic usage of the term.

    There are thousands of place names in Britain that use Great or greater in that context. For example, “Great Cumbrae”, in the Firth of Clyde is the larger of the two Isles of Cumbrae. Then we have the usage of such as Greater Glasgow. There is also the converse, such as Little in such as Littlehampton and Lesser also features too.

  145. Robert Louis says:

    Roboscot at 724

    You are incorrect regarding the cross of St.Patrick on the union jack. The independence Irish Parliament even debated asking for it to be removed from the union jack.

    It has nothing to do with the fact that N.Ireland is still part of the UK, indeed, the official line from London would be that the correct flag of N.Ireland is the union jack (with all the politics that goes with it in N.Ireland).

    The fact that the St.Patrick cross is still on the union jack, is merely a legacy thing.

  146. ahundredthidiot says:

    David McDowall

    On producing a wee red, blue and white book highlighting where no voters have been betrayed

    You have a point, now the Positive phase is almost expired we may have to resort to negative propaganda. It worked for BT. But it is failing them now.

    So i remain undecided on that as we do not want this fantastic movement of our going ‘sideways’.

    I believe our current strategy is slowly but surely working.

  147. Robert Louis says:

    Apologies for double posting.

  148. scott says:

    Regarding Michelle Thomson I see the Libs are screaming for a by-election and think they would win they say that according to an SNP source Ms Thompson’s credibility is damaged beyond repair.All this in the Times if someone can get the links as I can’t.
    All I can say to this what about the credibility of Carmichael.

  149. scott says:

    Also in the Times McGarry has the fight of her life to clear her name.

  150. Stan Free says:

    The most shocking part if this article is that you were planning to take a day off. “Vile Cybernat the so-called Rev Stu Campbell lazes around at the expense of the gullible separatist indepndenceistas who emptied their hard earned cash into one of his crowdfunders, ON A SUNDAY – THE DAY OF REST, AND HE WANTS A DAY OFF. I suppose he thinks he’ll be able to have a day off every week Jon the land of milk and honey and so in and so forth ad infinitum SNP Bad, fat eck blah blah Zzzzzzzzzz”

  151. frogesque says:

    @ Robert Kerr 8.25

    Indeed, I am of very good cheer for I know the lying toad is finished anyway and the establisment are already sorely rattled.

    That said, I would dearly love to see the whites of his eyes caught in the headlights if/when they say “Take him down!”

    £130k could do a great deal of good for Scottish foodbanks but at his stage I’m taking nothing for granted

  152. Robert Peffers says:

    @K1 says: 29 November, 2015 at 4:13 pm:

    “Fair point Scorates,”

    Is it hell, K1, Socrates is pushing Westminster propaganda just like Better Together.

    Here is a cut & paste from the LTA website : –

    The Lawn Tennis Association’s (LTA) mission is to get more people playing tennis more often, and part of its role is to govern tennis in Great Britain, Channel Islands and the Isle of Man by acting as guardians to promote and safeguard the integrity of the sport.

    However, the term, “Great Britain”, refers to only the largest island in the British Isles that includes only Scotland, England and Wales.

    Thus they are wrong to refer to the team as, “Team Great Britain”, which does not include Northern Ireland nor the three, “Crown Protectorates”, of the Bailiwicks of Jersey, Guernsey and the Ilse of Man.

    This has been Westminster propaganda since the Treaty of Union came into being on 1 May 1707.

    They want the World to conflate the terms Britain, Great Britain, The United Kingdom and England as one and the same entity. Note that Hameron talks incessantly of, “The British Parliament as if Westminster controlled all Britain. He misuses the Term Great Britain as if it were all Britain.

    He also uses the terms British Troops, British Navy, British Army, British Interests and, “The country”, or even, “My Country”, as if there were no Republic of Ireland or three non-UK Crown Protectorates.

    They will never contradict a foreign head of state who wrongly refers to the United Kingdom as England.

  153. Valerie says:

    galamcennalath @7.30

    Seems pretty clear from most sources, this strike was on a well known al nusra area. The area also had Turkish support, which is becoming more apparent these days. This report seems fair from Reuters.

    It’s horrible that children have been killed.

  154. galamcennalath says:

    Valerie says:

    “Seems pretty clear from most sources….”

    All over the world media. Has been for hours.

    One report said cluster bombs were dropped. Nasty, if true.

    And still nothing from/on the BBC!

  155. galamcennalath says:


    Even the Mail reported it at 10:50 this morning.

  156. Phronesis says:

    The methodology of killing Syrian children-

    Sen, K. Starvation of children in Syria–sanctions and the politics of revenge. Indian J.Med.Ethics 11(1), 63. 2014.

    ‘As Syria completes two years of western sanctions (2011-13), their dramatic effects on health are being highlighted with first reports of starvation deaths among children in the suburbs of Damascus. Although heavy fighting has taken place in this area, experts had predicted for some time the unworkability of sanctions for regime change, arguing that only civilians would pay the price in a country (Syria in this case) which was once well on the way to meeting the Millennium Development Goals 4 targets on reducing child mortality. In this, as in the case of other “sanctioned” countries, it is not just “civilians” but the most vulnerable among them–children, who are experiencing the tragic consequences of sanctions’

    Perhaps something a bit more combative and surpassing previous bloody conflicts-

    Hakimoglu, S., Karcioglu, M., Tuzcu, K., Davarci, I., Koyuncu, O., Dikey, I., Turhanoglu, S., Sari, A., Acipayam, M., and Karatepe, C. Assessment of the perioperative period in civilians injured in the Syrian Civil War. Braz.J.Anesthesiol. 65(6), 445-449. 2015.

    ‘wars and its challenges have historically afflicted humanity. The mortality rate found in this study was also compared to those reported in other civil wars. RESULTS: the mean age was 29 (3-68) years. Major sites of injury included extremities (56.0%), head (20.1%), abdomen (16.2%), vascular structures (4.4%) and thorax (3.3%). Injury types included firearm injury (64.4%), blast injury (34.4%) and miscellaneous injuries (1.2%)… among injuries related to war, the highest rate of mortality was observed in head-neck, abdomen and vascular injuries. We believe that the higher mortality rate in the Syrian Civil War, compared to the Bosnia, Vietnam, Lebanon and Afghanistan wars, is due to seeing civilians as a direct target during war

    A bomb or bullet doesn’t distinguish between age groups-

    Celikel, A., Karbeyaz, K., Kararslan, B., Arslan, M. M., and Zeren, C. Childhood casualties during civil war: Syrian experience. J.Forensic Leg.Med. 34, 1-4. 2015.

    ‘According to UNICEF, almost 2 million children have died in the wars took place in the last 10 years. In this study, we aimed to evaluate demographical data and injury characteristics of Syrian children who were wounded in Syria Civil War and died while being treated in Turkey. Postmortem examination and autopsy reports of 985 forensic deaths from Hatay -a Syrian neighborhood city of Turkey-between January 2012 and August 2014 were analyzed retrospectively… Frequency distribution is highest between 13 and 18 years of age (n: 71, 50.7%). In 70% (n: 98) of cases, cause of death is bombing and shrapnel injuries, 13.6% (19) of them were killed by gunshot wounds…In conclusion, a lot of children have died in the Civil War of Syria.Children that we evaluated were mostly died of head and neck injuries predominantly caused by bombing attacks’

    The real enemies- no doubt dangerously armed with their walking sticks and colouring in pens-

    Celikel, A., Karaarslan, B., Demirkiran, D. S., Zeren, C., and Arslan, M. M. A series of civilian fatalities during the war in Syria. Ulus.Travma.Acil.Cerrahi.Derg. 20(5), 338-342. 2014.
    ‘In this study, it is aimed to evaluate demographic characteristics and injury properties of cases died during civil war in Syria. This study indicated that a significant proportion of those who died after being injured in the Syrian war were children, women and elderly people. The nature and localization of the observed injuries indicated open attacks by military forces regardless of targets being civilians and human rights violations’

    Goodness-how confusing and something you wont read in the MSM- your enemy’s enemy ad infinatum comes to your aid…

    Biswas, S., Waksman, I., Baron, S., Fuchs, D., Rechnitzer, H., Dally, N., Kassis, S., and Hadary, A. Analysis of the First 100 Patients From the Syrian Civil War Treated in an Israeli District Hospital. Ann.Surg. 10-11-2015.

    ‘An analysis of the injuries and treatment of the first 100 patients from the Syrian civil war was conducted to monitor quality of care and outcome. As reports of the collapse of health care systems in regions within Syria reach the media, patients find themselves crossing the border into Israel for the treatment of war injuries. Among these patients are combatants, noncombatants, women, and children. Treatment, that is free at the point of care, is a humanitarian imperative for war wounded, and this paper reports the care in an Israeli district hospital of the first 100 patients received… The experience of the care of patients across a hostile border has been unprecedented. Hospital protocols required adjustment to deliver quality clinical and social care to patients suffering from both the acute and chronic effects of civil war

    The WM government should think very carefully about the ‘who’ and the ‘what’ that will inevitably become collateral damage in this war. The UK has signed up to a legally binding international treatise on the rights of the child- the avoidable child deaths in Syria do matter.

  157. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    O/T but quite interesting if you are worried about non payment of your TV licence fees.

    I was speaking to a couple of acquaintances who happen to be a fiscals about why I do not watch TV anymore because I will not pay the TV licence. They just laughed and said just keep watching as you will not be prosecuted in Scotland. But I said – that cannot be right as TV licence fines are one of the the biggest crimes in court. Quoting Telegraph article…

    Maybe in England but not in Scotland they said. They do not get many TV licence requests and if they do they file them in the bin as they are a complete waste of fiscal and court time.

    I thought that cannot be right? Mind you I have never met or heard of anyone who has been prosecuted in Scotland?

    So like all Alert Readers I did a little research and came across this little gem…

    So there you have it – England over 180,000 prosecutions a year but in Scotland 60 a year – yes sixty!

    So basically, if you live in an area where the fiscals are busy or cannot be bothered you will never get prosecuted and if you live elsewhere you will have little chance of being prosecuted relative to England. So Ronnie Anderson – looks like you may have to wait a long time for your day in court.

    I wonder if there are some legally minded Alert Readers who would put FOIs into the Scottish courts to see what the recent numbers are to see if they have increased during and after the indy campaign. These ones were from 2012.

    So another huge benefit of living in Scotland and having our own legal system – you are very unlikely to be done by the courts for TV licence evasion.
    🙂 🙂 🙂

  158. James Barr Gardner says:

    My dream is Scotland voting SNP x 2 in May next year and voting SNP in the 2017 Local Council Elections and YES campaign winning our freedom in 2019. Then I’ll get to see Andy Murray winning tournaments draped in the Saltire without a butcher’s apron to be seen.

  159. Valerie says:


    That is so harrowing to read, and it should be compulsory reading for supporters of war. You wonder if this stuff crosses their mind?

    Being objective about the first report, though, it’s pretty damning about the attack on the Assad regime, if it seems clear they had clear progress on reduction in child mortality – it’s an important measure in a civilised society.

    I don’t know enough to outright condemn the man, but I’ve certainly read enough about how various measures have been applied through various means of death and destruction to bring the Wests special brand of democracy.

    As I’ve said before, Assad has a higher % of support than Cameron.

  160. Wuffing Dug says:

    I’ll certainly contribute to a crowdfunding frenzy if that were to happen.

    Would rather donate to something worthwhile than buy Christmas presents for people who already have more than enough.

    Let’s work it right up these lickspittle bastirts.

    I contacted Orkney 4 and they said still contribute through Indiegogo.

    Be nice to see that lying shitehoose nailed, may be wishful thinking but at least we are landing blows in this fight.

  161. shug says:

    Do you think this series of attacks is directed at women only
    I recall the initial headlines against Thomson was Ashley mansion which a guess is a set attack

  162. caz-m says:

    The BBC:-

    “Paris-style attacks could “easily” happen in UK cities such as London, Manchester or Glasgow, the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon has warned.”

    “He said an attack on Britain was now highly likely and we have to do something about that.”

    Can you be a bit more precise there Michael, when is Glasgow likely to be bombed?

    If I ask Mundell, will he be able to tell me?

  163. K1 says:

    Och I knew the hammers were coming Robert after ah read yer post to Socrates…(hid behind the couch, hopin’ ye wouldnae see me…doh). I’ll take it on the chin, ma reply wis mair cheeky than thoughtful…I take yer point and stand corrected, it’s hard tae remember it aw in the cheek of the moment ;-(

  164. Thepnr says:

    @Hoss Mackintosh

    That link was a wee gem, but I sincerly would wish that those people choosing not to pay the propaganda tax do so for a reason.

    Don’t pay for propaganda to be beamed into your home. Just don’t watch, any programmes you like that you miss, then watch later.

    Put it this way, imagine being forced to pay for a subscription to the Scotsman and it’s Sunday equivalent just to be force fed the garbage article above.

    Fantasy eh!. The license fee is not.

  165. John Young says:

    Listened to the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon on Marr this morning and learned so much.

    Apparently UK bombs can now go underground into tunnels before exploding and UK bombs can now differentiate between a good Syrian and a bad Syrian and UK bombs have not killed any civilians in Iraq in recent years.

    And some folk believe this absolute pish.

  166. caz-m says:


    I have looked at the BBC’s Middle East news section and I can’t see a thing about the Russian attack on the market place in Syria.

    Maybe I am looking in the wrong place, but it does look like they have ignored this story all together.

  167. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi caz-m.

    Never mind Glasgow. When is Invergowrie expected to be targeted? After all, there are numerous venues for Wings get-togethers in Glasgow – there’s only one in Invergowrie!

    When do we have to get our tin hats? We should be told…

  168. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Hoss Mackintosh I received ah warning letter on Frid I have until 10th of Dec to get a TV licence or their gonny (whit)ma visits are temporarily on hold, ah wid be shaking in ma boots ,but ah hiv ma slippers oan.

  169. caz-m says:

    Brian DTT

    You don’t think Michael Fallon is tellin us one of those Project Fear, scaremongering stories, do you?

  170. ArtyHetty says:

    Re; Hoss Mackingtosh@9.18

    Regards TV license, people are actually locked up for non payment in oh so wonderful, unfair unequal, Victorian Great Britain, ie, England.

    There is a difference, in Scotland you cannot be jailed for debt, but you can be jailed for non payment of fines. So, in England, they scare people, the majority, into paying to have state run pap piped into their living rooms day in day out, so those who can’t or won’t pay, can and are locked up for a few weeks. Democracy, don’t you just love it. God save our…

    So it will be less worthwhile persuing people if you can’t have them terrified of being locked up. If that makes sense, regards the few prosecutions in Scotland.

  171. David McDowell says:

    ahundredthidiot at 8:34pm

    Allow me to clarify:

    I think the “positive” narrative – the one you say is “slowly but surely working” – is fine for confirmed “yes” and “don’t know” people.

    “The Red, White and Blue Book” would be for “soft No’s” ONLY.

    This subset needs both a carrot (such as the SNP’s “positive” narrative AND a stick (such as The Red, White and Blue Book) to achieve the shift in perception required to persuade them the Union is not working for THEM. The “positive” narrative alone is not enough.

    It is vitally important to target only those who have had a costly real world experience of what happens if you believe Better Together’s lies: i.e. they have lost a job, or know someone who lost a job, or lost a benefit, or whatever, as a result of believing one of the lies highlighted in “The Red, White and Blue Book”.

    You might say: “how can you know who the ‘soft No’s’ are? How do you target just them?”

    I say:

    1. Study where the betrayals and job losses have taken place. Look at whatever detailed geographic voting data is available for the referendum, find those areas where the +65s live (more likely to be “No’s”) + more wealthy areas (more likely “No’s”).

    2. Create a pamphlet highlighting the top ten biggest Unionist betrayals and broken promises since the referendum (evidence of Better Together promise on left page/evidence of how it was broken on the other).

    3. Give the pamphlet a Union flag cover but no other outward indication of content. Black and white images of newspaper articles would do inside. It wouldn’t have to be colour = cheaper to print. The “top ten” lies could be covered in a pamphlet of twenty pages.

    4. Raise as big a crowdfunding target as possible to print tens of thousands of these pamphlets – maybe even a hundred thousand or more, if money allows.

    5. Ask “yes” supporters to carpet bomb the TARGET AREAS with these pamphlets: hand deliver them to houses, workplaces, waiting rooms, train and bus stations, libraries (planted inside books), pubs, bookmakers, newsagents (planted inside newspapers), community centres, etc. Make them impossible to ignore.

    I believe this strategy would be more effective on “soft No’s” than telling them only our “positive” narrative and expecting them to suddenly see the light.

    “The Red, White and Blue Book” would give them an emotionally charged, highly personal message that they could not deny is true, even to themselves, since they know they lost their job, or they know they lost certain benefits, or whatever. They might find “The Red, White and Blue Book” an uncomfortable read, but they wouldn’t be able to deny its truth, because it happened to THEM.

    That gives those specific people a compelling reason to consider changing their thinking, open their eyes, consider making a change in the narrow way they see the world and re-think who they believe might or might not be “on their side”.

    I don’t accept “negative” narratives are always bad. For certain specific target audiences “negative” narratives are more likely to work better than simply providing a “positive” narrative on its own. Frrom their perspective, a “positive” narrative isn’t a sufficiently compelling or personal reason to change their minds.

    That is my case for “The Red, White and Blue Book”. Far from pushing the independence movement “sideways” I believe this is the most effective way “forward”.

  172. Gary45% says:

    Sport Alert.
    Congratulations to Andy, Jamie and Leon.
    One thing is for sure, rather than Scotland getting any recognition for the Davis cup win, W1 will get even more funding for infrastructure with Scotland’s min 10% Barnett quota.
    Yes we gave them the win and then they rob us, just think of the future Scots kicking arse at Tennis, trained at fantastic facilities in Scotland.
    Aye it will happen when we are free from the constraints of the UK.

  173. galamcennalath says:


    ”it does look like they have ignored this story all together.”

    … which is astonishing when they have spent so much time covering Cameron/Corbyn, will they / won’t they bomb story.

  174. K1 says:

    That Fallon’s a fucking mystery wrapped up in an enigma…Ah thought our big bombs is whit’s meant to be stopping their wee bullets hurtin’ us aw?

    (I can feel the drone sights oan me already) ***reaches fur teflon coated saucepan*** (tae hell wi yer cheap tinfoil hattery).

  175. caz-m says:

    I am no fan of Jeremy Corbyn because of his misguided views on Scottish Independence.

    But I hope to hell that he “whips” these Red Tory bastards within his Labour Party who are planning to vote WITH the Conservatives this week to bomb Syria.

  176. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi John Young (and caz-m).

    JY typed,
    “And some folk believe this absolute pish.”

    I can only offer,

  177. Gary45% says:

    Thanks for the insight.
    The thing is we have got used to not watching the Shi*e on the box.
    It has been mind expanding not feeling the urge to listen to the daily feed of PISH the media produce.
    Even when we go to our local gym ( which has live TV/Internet on the exercise machines) we still prefer to watch the internet, e.g WOS, you tube etc.

    Everybody “Stop Paying the Licence.”

  178. caz-m says:

    Ronnie Anderson

    I think they know the reaction they would get if they were to take you to court Ronnie. And if they did try it with you, then they would need to take the rest of us to court with you.

    I dare them to even think about it.

  179. ArtyHetty says:

    Re; David McDowell

    That sounds like a really good plan. I always felt that the yes side was too lightweight with the oh so positive stuff much as it’s great to avoid being too negative. So, we need a balance, to ask people, do you feel that the union is working in your and your families best interests etc. We definitely need to get the message out that Scotland is being sidelined, undermined and strangled by the union in westminster. To make people think, you have to get them to ask questions, no use saying it will be this good, or that fabulous, or you will be this much better off, they do not believe it. People are cynical, easily led and they are often lazy.

    Where can we find some good advice, not about to con, which is what the unionists did, but how to convince by asking questions, and by offering people responsibilitiy, along with rights. Or vice versa. There is much to be done! Ok off to watch Stargate, always good for strategic enlightenment! :))

  180. caz-m says:

    Aye Brian,

    Pish, Tory Pish.


  181. ronnie anderson says:

    @ caz-m Its aw arranged ah spoke wie Prof John Roberson ah while ago ,he produses his report & the serious bit, ah dey the funnies (kicked oota court) lol.

  182. Scott Borthwick says:

    o/t it looks like the National have gone as close as they can to claiming the Davis Cup for Scotland on their front page tomorrow.

    ‘Happy St Andy’s Day!’


  183. David McDowell says:

    caz-m at 10:55pm

    If the BBC took Ronnie Anderson to court the resulting crowdfunder would dwarf the Orkney Four’s, and the defence already successfully employed by Tony Rooke in England (see Independence Live, Thursday, November 26) would be unleashed by the Yes Movement to demolish the BBC.

    The BBC would almost certainly lose such a case. After all, as Carmichael’s QC earnestly told the judges: “we can’t possibly have different court judgements north and south of the border”!

    And if the BBC did lose it would be a total disaster for them, since hundreds of thousands of Scots would simply rip up their TV licences and let Independence Live film them doing it.

    Not only would the BBC bitterly regret picking on Ronnie Anderson, they’d be going into the proverbial darkened room with a loaded revolver, since it would be the end of the TV licence in Scotland.

    I don’t believe the BBC is stupid enough to risk such a “test” case in Scotland, but as some has-been politician who allegedly had “a brain the size of Dumbarton Rock”, once said: “Bring it on!”

  184. Thepnr says:

    @Scott Borthwick

    Yes I agree with you, we should be proud of the achievement of the Murrays and the coach, Andys first coach other than his mum, another Scot.

    Shout it from the rooftops! Why not, it’s not often we have an opportunity to do so.

    This was a well deserved GB victory and a team effort. I’m just happy that the Murrays played their part, satisfies me.

    See later though…!

  185. heedtracker says:

    You can own a tv and not have a legally not have a licence. Just tell them you do not watch live tv with it. They have to accept that but if you do watch live tv and they catch you, you’re nicked.

  186. heedtracker says:

    TV used to close down with the UK national anthem, and even had some watchable stuff once, for 60’s kid.

    So anyway, to revive that ancient tv tradition- they say royalty is like a theatre and when the curtain draws back, everyone bursts out laughing

  187. Cadogan Enright says:

    Back in the 80’s I worked for several Irish newspapers in the Republic and joined a boycott of the Irish TV licence in protest at the then extant ‘Section 31 of the Broadcasting Act’.

    This allowed the Irish Government to block politicians selectively from being heard on the media where they were not 100% in accord with the UK’s line on what was happening in NI.

    I went to court, and had rant from the dock about freedom of speech and was sentenced to a week in jail if I did not pay.

    I never paid, and a few months later a Guarda came round the house to cart me off to Mountjoy jail, with a wee receipt book, just in case I wanted to make a last minute payment.

    I refused to pay, and he excused himself saying they had space problems in Mountjoy jail that weekend and saying he would be back.

    I’m still waiting. and have never paid.

    It would only take a few people going to jail clutching copies of publications by Ponsonby and Prof John Robinson before the authorities will come up with their hands up.

  188. bugsbunny says:

    Happy St. Andrew’s Day folks.


  189. heedtracker says:

    Google’s St Andrew’s Day thingee is awful but we did vote NO, so deserve it, from the Yanks.

  190. James Barr Gardner says:

    Heedtracker @ 11.58 pm

    I must be a wee bit older, I remember the Uk nation anthem being played in cinemas at the end of each showing, in those days you got an A feature film and then a B picture. My mother who took my brother an I there was always quick on the mark in getting out before the anthem.

  191. Iain More says:

    I haven’t missed the BBC since they stopped doing the Old Grey Whistle Test. As far as I am concerned they haven’t deliberately produced anything that I wanted to watch or listen to enough since then.
    Although I did enjoy the sight of Renton and Campbell etc trying to contain their tears when the results of the Holyrood 2011 elections started coming in, it was the best live TV ever, it was pure accident though. I wonder what they will give their Unionist lickspittles to remove their emotional outpourings next May?

  192. David McDowell says:

    ArtyHetty at 11:03pm

    It’s my attempt to broaden the discussion beyond the “positive narrative is the only way” mantra, which may be in danger of achieving dogma status amongst the “Yes” movement.

    If we are going to win we need to make sure we aren’t just believing in something because we want it to be true. And I don’t see a great deal of practical ideas about how we could convert “soft No’s”, beyond broad agreement that they will have to be converted if we are going to win.

    “The Wee Blue Book” was brilliant. I’m not sure it would be good strategy to repeat it. New situations require new approaches.

    And I don’t necessarily accept that, FOR SOFT NO’S, pointing out the Unionists’ top ten lies would actually be seen BY THEM as a “negative” narrative.

    For someone who voted “No” on a promise of a safe job, who has now lost their job, such a message might be seen as a “positive” message (i.e. THEY weren’t to blame, it was all the lying UK government’s fault).

    It’s not the same as telling “soft No’s” they’re “stupid”, “duped” or “wrong”, or using some other disparaging put down. That would be a complete turn off for anyone.

    No, the aim of the “The Red, White and Blue Book” must be to sow doubt and dissatisfaction with the UK government specifically amongst the betrayed “No” voting sub-segment, not to try to force the SNP or a “positive” alternative down their throat.

    Let them decide for themselves whether, based on their own personal experience of supporting “No”, a re-think might be a good idea.

    So I hope this sparks off further new ideas, rather than just dismissing something out of hand because it doesn’t parrot the party mantra.

  193. DerekM says:

    The two ladies have done the right thing in not taking the SNP whip,as has the SNP and Nicola,until the police can do their job and either charge someone or dismiss it,any speculation is pointless,its all opinion no facts.

    If anything the SNP should be telling the police to get on with it and get these accusations dealt with,the deliberate ploy of stringing it out is my concern,this is taking to long and someone is at it in my opinion.

    I guess we will just have to put up with this petty attempt to make the SNP look just as corrupt us the unionists,they have no other answer to the SNP they cant beat them and they know it,if Natalie and Michele step down as SNP MP`s then we will put new SNP MP`s in those constituencies regardless,they still dont get the fact in the GE the people of the yes movement put the SNP where they are,or that the Yes movement is not the SNP,but it is fun to watch them all crashing about like idiots though lol

  194. heedtracker says:

    James Barr Gardner

    My mother who took my brother an I there was always quick on the mark in getting out before the anthem.

    Its interesting isn’t it. As a Scots kid in the sixties, I couldn’t stand it either, although it is a ghastly anthem.

    BBC r4 used to do their own version of musical UKOKism when they booted up at 5.30 am but I quite liked it. Sometimes Britannia really should still rule the waves, they wanted desperately to believe in Broadcasting House

    Still makes you proud to be a Brit and then they scrapped it. Spot the Irish in there?

  195. Hood says:

    heedtracker 12:20

    That brings back memories, heading out of Arbroath harbour on the cold dark mornings and switching on the radio to get the shipping forecast 😀

  196. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Today is St Andrews Day. It is also the 92nd anniversary of the death of John McLean.. I would love to see a petition started to have George Square in Glasgow renamed McLean Square.
    Shouldn’t cause a problem. They did this for Mandela.

  197. yesindyref2 says:

    Herald on the McGarry warpath again with (very) amateur sleuth and veritable tiro mathmetician Hutcheon on the job. I put this posting in, using figures from various Herald articles (well, 2 actually, both by Hutcheon):

    Maths doesn’t seem to be a strong point:

    “£51,000 in donations ” (£49,816.23 in 2014 after deductions)

    “£26,000 in support of a yes vote” (£24,605 from EC) leaves £25,000.
    “£8,700 prior to this period” leaves £16,300.
    “£2,500 was spent on wages” leaves £13,800.
    “£2,900 on merchandise” leaves £10,900.
    “£910 on postage ” leaves £9,990.
    “£3,800 in donations to food banks in Perth and on hall hires.” leaves £6,190.
    “£4,000 was “carried down” into 2015 ” leaves £2,190.
    “£8,000 was in reserve” leaves MINUS £5,810.

    “paid the group £6,000 after months of facing questions about its accounts,” makes that MINUS £11,810.

    “told the police around £30,000 was apparently missing from its funds”

    No, it seems from the figures given that far from £30,000 being missing, McGarry is owed some £11,810.

    Or that the sums just don’t add up.

    I daresay this posting won’t last, like the last time I did some maths.

  198. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry, I just realised that last posting wasn’t OT. 🙁 LOL

  199. Grendel says:

    Maybe it’s time that the National changed it’s front page from large images to eyecatching BOLD TYPE headlines such as “Labour MP on Assault Charge” or “Labour Fail to Act on Missing £10K”, and alternate them day in, day out until both Dugdale and Rimmer resign the whip/are suspended.
    It’s time to go on the attack against these bastards.

  200. osakisushi says:

    Grendel – 100% agree
    Yes IR2 – If your numbers are correct, someone somewhere has screwed up and McGarry has an open goal.

  201. schrodingers cat says:

    happy st Andrews day

    btw. he was Syrian,

  202. yesindyref2 says:

    I left that posting as it is, but luckily was able to reply to a replier to my posting:

    The irony is (Xname) that rather than my calculations, there are questions should be asked before any publication about what “carried down”, “reserve” actually mean specifically to these “accounts”, and what proportion of itesms 3-6 of expenditure, if any can be split up before, during and after the short EC reporting period.

    But hey, I’m not a journalist, just a punter.

    It still comes nowhere near £30,000, perhaps £2,000 tops. Either way.

  203. James Barr Gardner says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 12.39

    I would love to see a petition started to have George Square in Glasgow renamed McLean Square.
    Shouldn’t cause a problem. They did this for Mandela.

    I suggest renaming Pacific Quay to Liars Quay and Central Quay to Tractors Quay, any other suggestions?

  204. john king says:

    The saltire is also the flag of Tenerife

    I never knew that!
    just looking at ST Andrew on wiki.

    we ken whit’ll be hingin fae ma balcony in porto de la cruz in March do we boys and girls? 🙂

  205. Ken500 says:

    If the figures quoted in the Press are correct. There is no monies missing from the account . The Account is over. Ie there is more money in the account than has been paid out. The ‘Press’ must know that. Just more complete and utter lies from the lying Press. They are a disgrace,

    Tommy Sheridan stopped warrant sales in Scotland and fought against the Poll tax. Tommy Sheridan has fought for the most vulnerable people in Glasgow. He was betrayed by these liars and the criminal Press. Murdoch should be in jail along with the rest of the liars.

    Tennis is even better with the sound off. As for the anthem and the Brit frenzy forget it. Well done to everyone. They are only as good as their opponents.

    The Tories have cut tax so much in England especially for the wealthy tax evaders (them). There is not enough money for essential services. Council tax is going to rise 2% to cover the shortfall. This will be a tax increase by the back door to cover for their economic negligence and failure Progressive Income tax is a fairer way to collect tax but the Tories have failed and the debt is rising. They are trying to cover up their incompetence. HMRC is not fit to purpose. It is a shambles. Tax evasion by multinational making vast profits and wealthy non Doms is rife.

    The Tories have ruined the Oil sector. Thousands of people are losing their jobs. The tax is 5% higher since they came to power. The tax is 75% despite the Oil price falling over half. In 2011 Osbkurne increased the tax 11% (£2Billion) ) to 81% It has been taken down to 75% but the Oil price fallen by over 50%. The Oil producers has reduce production because it is uneconomical. Not because of the fall in price but because of the amount of tax. Illegal tax. There is no other industry taxed at these rates in the UK. Multinationals making vast profits tax evade and pay no tax. Osborne has decided to try and ruin the Scottish economy. Thosands are losing their jobs unnecessarily because of Osbourne’s economic failure. More Oil and Gas has to be imported. The balance of payments is increased puting up the deficit and debt. . Scotland is losing £Billions of income because of the Tories failed economic policies.

    The Tories were elected to protect the NHS and cut the debt. The debt is rising. The NHS in
    England has been underfunded and the Junior Doctors are going on strike. The Tories are bringing in the Army to cover. What a complete mess.

    They are trying to start another illegal invasion in the Middle East which will cause even more deaths and waste £Billions. The Tory/Unionist have caused the biggest migration crisis in Europe since WW11. They should be giving aid and trading and protecting these people. Not engaging in even more bombing. Another completely failed policy. From one crisis to another, wasting £Billions along the way which could be better spent.

    Another Tory bullying scandal. The nasty, bullying Bollinger boys are rife. They are sanctioning vulnerable people and starving them to death. Westminster is being run by corrupt, incompetent amateurs.

  206. Ken500 says:

    Scotland is importing cheap fracked US Gas. That is what is keeping people alive. While the Scottish Oil, coal, renewables sector is run down by the Tories. Coal , Oil and Gas has to be imported, Putting up the the balance of payment deficit and the debt. Then there is less money to invest in renewables. Wind, sun, and wave. CCS. Every building where applicable could have solar. More wind turbines and tidal power. Tidal barrage. Scotland could be quite different and more prosperous.

    Scotland is half empty. There will be places where it is safe to frack and where it is not. Instead of relying on imported US fracked Gas. Planning Laws are different in Scotland, than the US. In the US people can do anything. In Scotland they cannot.

    Vote SNP/Tommy to get control of Councils and get rid of Trident through planning regulations. Ban Trident for health and safety risks to the population.

    SNP/Tommy/socialist for a better future. The Greens are fracking useless. They collude with Unionists/landowners for money, ruin the local economy and renege on their own policies. Use their casting vote, to vote with the status quo – the Unionist/landowners – build carbuncles ruining city centre, vote against pedestrianiation and essential infrastructure. They waste £Millions/Billions of public money which could be better spent. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.

  207. woosie says:

    O/T, sky news this morning reporting on The Murrays’ ( sorry, GB’s ) magnificent Davis Cup victory – ” above all, it’s a victory for unity”


  208. heedtracker says:

    Scotland is importing cheap fracked US Gas.

    Visit Norway, see how they invested their oil bounty in Norway!

    Visit England, see how they invested their oil bounty in England!

  209. Macart says:


    ‘victory for unity’

    They wish.

    As for the disingenuous halfwits who mouth these inanities in our media and their chain tuggers in parliament? They should learn what we have learnt long since. How to separate social union and political union. People in general have no problems with unity. A social union will be here long after the political union of our parliaments is dust and consigned to the bin of history.

  210. Another Union Dividend says:

    Ken 500

    Problem with your theory that Scotland is half empty is that bulk of shale is underneath the populous central belt.

    The real energy potential is extracting gas from the vast deposits of coal lying under the North Sea, potentially holding enough energy to power Britain for centuries.

    The North Sea bed holds up to 20 layers of coal extending from Scotland’s northeast coast far out under the sea — and that much of it could be reached with the technologies already in use to extract oil and gas.

    “There are between three trillion and 23 trillion tonnes of coal buried under the North Sea,” according to Dermot Roddy, formerly professor of energy at Newcastle University. “This is thousands of times greater than all the oil and gas we have taken out so far, which totals around 6bn tonnes. If we could extract just a few per cent of that coal it would be enough to power the UK for decades or centuries.”

  211. galamcennalath says:

    Soon be 24hours, the whole world has reported the marketplace bombing, but still I can’t see it on the BBC site.

    Is it being ignored because of imminent WM vote to join the bombing?

  212. Another Union Dividend says:

    Here is a link on UCG to a detailed report in Sunday Times (but I don’t subscribe)


    The process of Underground Coal Gasification (UCG) requires no new technology and there is practically no exploration risk, thanks to detailed geology reports from the old NCB. [It involves injecting oxygen or steam into unworked coal underground to release gas.]

    It is possible to drill horizontally from land into the North Sea and vertically into the coal seam, which will be at depths of between 300 metres and a kilometre and beneath impermeable rock.

    The scale of the reserves is remarkable: 2bn tonnes of coal, of which half may be amenable to gasification, is equivalent in oil terms to 4bn barrels of oil – the size of a Middle Eastern oil field.

  213. Ken500 says:

    The problem is coal production has been stopped in the UK by Westminster. No Westminster permission for CCS. The oil industry is illegally overtaxed to deliberately ruin the Scottish economy. To prevent FFA or Independence? No Westminster policies which support, wind, sun, wave or CCS.

    Oil & Gas is extracted from coal deposits in the North Sea, a by product. The problem is production has fallen because of the excessive tax ratio to price. More Oil, Gas and coal has to be imported putting up the (UK) balance of payment deficit and the debt.

  214. Colin Church says:


    I am confused. The Tories have a majority of 12 and can add DUP. They were not confident they could get vote through on Syria, Why is all the attention on Labour and Corbyn discipline / whipping and not the Tory divisions on this? Are Tories just trying to mitigate the told you so reaction from Labour when it all goes T up.

    It is also now framed a Corbyn voting against Britain joining the air attack on ISIS. Corbyn voting against Britain…

    Call Kaye today is why is St Andrews day rubbish. FFS.

  215. Robert Kerr says:


    Indeed energy rich Scotland is being fiscally impoverished by WM.

    And they are doing it deliberately.

    A forensic analysis needs to be codified to show this to the people.

  216. Luigi says:

    galamcennalath says:

    30 November, 2015 at 9:01 am

    Soon be 24hours, the whole world has reported the marketplace bombing, but still I can’t see it on the BBC site.

    Is it being ignored because of imminent WM vote to join the bombing?

    Aye, it would be rather inconvenient for the government, if the Brainwashing Corporation reported on this right now, just before the crucial WM vote (and Corbyn making his mind up)!

  217. call me dave says:

    At last we know. “Kezia is with me on this,the case for bombing has not been made” Ian Murray our man in Scotland.

    GMS a patient in the better off parts of Scotland gets 7 TIMES more spent on them than an equivalent patient in the poorer parts! According to a SG report… says Garry.

    Except Elonour Bradford said it correctly a few sentences later £7 a year more … schurely schome a mishtake!

  218. heedtracker says:

    Gas and coal has to be imported putting up the (UK) balance of payment deficit and the debt.

    The problem was and is, English class war. 70’s miners strike ended Heath Thatcher and co returned the favour, planned, sustained end of days for blue collar UK. This is what happens with socioeconomic UKOK built on class.

    Thatcher world banned all unions from their Scottish oil fields, so you never saw a strike, revenue syphoned away to pay for Maggies millions, giant pension funds and ofcourse invested in the south east of England infrastructure which has fanned out, West and The North.

    Red Tory Blair and Brown finished the job, Cameron, Osborne etc are merely mopping up the survivors in Scotland but they’ll look after their UKOK own. They always do.

    Nothing stopping anyone heading for London from Scotland, millions are doing that from across the world and even from their Scotland region.

    Ask likes of Lord Flipper or Lady Mone of Mayfair:D

  219. ewen says:

    Heedtracker. When d
    did they stop that dirge playing at close of transmission? I can distinctly remember it and can distinctly remember my father giving the double vikky in time to the music. I was born in 66 so it must have kept being played until I was old enough to stay up late.

    Before my time but my father was in the habit of letting it play out on the telly because Radio Free Scotland would come on immediately afterwards.

  220. Papadox says:

    I hear a lot about coal gasification under the North Sea. I am also aware of the theft of part of the North Sea Scottish territorial waters by Westminster by redrawing the border to place large areas of undersea natural resources in londiniums hands or is it pockets?

    Could this attempted con trick be the insurance policy for Londinium and its crooks because they can see the end of the U.K.

    Further is the slowing up of oil exploration/production and the abandonment of renewable energy development a plan to force this coal gasification to the top of the energy must have.

    There are to many coincidents in my opinion to be accidental. Let’s not forget about Grangemouth and Ineos.

    I am no expert on these subjects so if other more knowledgeable wingers could maybe sort out my conspiracy theory. Confused thoughts of a old man!

  221. scotspine says:

    Kaye Adam invited “Independent” Defence Analyst Paul Beaver on to promote the pinpoint accuracy of Brimstone missile “if” we deploy aircraft to Syria.

    Apparently these weapons are fantastic. They have small warheads, can destroy a car parked outside a house with the only damage to the house being the odd broken window.

    What they fail to mention of course is that it all goes horribly wrong when the Intel about the target is pish.

    BBC trying to make the drift to war appealing. Disgusting.

  222. Achnababan says:

    Colin Church – you are right! The BBC and other corporate media are totally ignoring the Tories.

    Everyone is talking about Crobyn but no one has yet asked the Tories about their divisions. Nobody has quizzed the Prime Minister about what he truly wants to gain – its all bluster thinly disguised as Churchillian-style doom-laden rhetoric.

    Overall, this premedia blitz ahead of the vote is just another attempt to stitch up opponenents of the political – corporate machine that see death and killing as an opportunity to make profits and gain ‘political captial’.

  223. Ian Brotherhood says:

    CallKaye had some dude banging on about promoting world harmony by celebrating St. Andrews Day with other nations who have him as a patron saint. He rattled through a list which Kaye merrily repeated: Greece, Poland, Russia, Romania, Ukraine, Barbados…

    One nation was missing from their list – Syria.

    She then had a guest explaining the amazing precision of the guided weapons we’ll be using asap against ‘the bad guys’.

    ‘Ye couldny’ etc etc… 🙁

  224. Bob Mack says:


    Re McGarry account surplus.

    It is all conjecture,but did not McGarry donate her excess salary as most, if not all SNP members do to a charity of choice? Might explain surplus.

  225. Inkall says:

    To those pointing out the BBC’s lack of coverage of the marketplace airstrike I’d like to also point out one other media outlet I’ve not seen it mentioned … Russia Today.

    No real surprise but I often here people using RT as a “good guy” to compare the BBC to. For me they are both state medias telling what their states want people to hear or in this case not hear.

  226. I notice in today’s daily stranger that it reports the Edinburgh Eastern constituency Labour party have found half of their missing £10k.

    So apparently Labour has managed to account for more than half of the £10k and that only leaves £4500 to be unaccounted for.

  227. ahundredthidiot says:

    David McDowall @10:34

    You make a good case for the red, white and blue book, and you might be right. Certainly it would ‘turn’ some no voters to yes. Can’t argue with that.

    What I am worried about (when i said something along the lines of itcould push the movement sideways) is yessers taking the movement in a direction the UK government is just dying for us to take.

    And if you are still wondering what I mean by that consider this – what would happen if we lost indyref2?

    I don’t mean ‘sideways’ static, I mean sideways bad.

  228. Bill McLean says:

    My Brummy wife used to stay seated in Birmingham cinemas when all the others stood. She was taught to by her Mum who wasn’t daft either. All in favour of renaming George Square to “McLean Square”! tee hee!

  229. Sorry this damn windows7 is annoying, it should have read as ‘that only leaves £4500 to be accounted for.’

  230. galamcennalath says:

    Inkall says:

    To those pointing out the BBC’s lack of coverage of the marketplace airstrike I’d like to also point out one other media outlet I’ve not seen it mentioned … Russia Today.

    No real surprise but …


    For me they are both state medias telling what their states want people to hear or in this case not hear.


    The way I look at it is they both have agendas and will therefore twist the news to suit those, however those agendas rarely coincide. Therefore the divergence shows what the real story is likely to be once the relevant agenda has been subtracted!

    They both omit, twist and are truthful to suit their agendas. Usually while one is omitting and twisting the other is truthful. This present situation is rare, where agendas do coincide!

    There is something else. There was a time in my life, probably pre Iraq War, where I would never have thought the day would come where it appears the BBC’s news reporting is no better nor accurate that the Russian state broadcaster. That really is damning.

    Though, perhaps it never was any better. I, like most, lived in ignorance.

  231. ahundredthidiot says:

    Inkall @10:59

    You’re right. I don’t think anyone is saying RT is the good guy, but it is the ‘other guy’

    In a world of such bias its always good to hear both sides, or many sides, before reaching a conclusion.

    AJ for me seemed a good source, still is I suppose, but can’t help wondering if their journalists being jailed was really more about bringing them into line…..oops, there I go again.

  232. Capella says:

    @ Inkall
    The report of the market place bombing is in Aljazeera, a “Doha-based state-funded broadcaster owned by the Al Jazeera Media Network, which is partly funded by the House of Thani, the ruling family of Qatar.”

    All outlets have to be read critically. Do they back up reports with evidence or are they just biased opinion, or worse, state propaganda.

  233. Cadogan Enright says:

    @inkall 10.39

    True, but RT makes it clear where they are coming from editorially, and frequently calls upon the BBC to do the same.

    RT can be reported to OFCOM for the slightest bias – the BBC cannot

    If you have not made your submission to the BBC on this point , then do so here

    Meanwhile here is a link to help CROWDFUND AN INDEPENDENT SCOTTISH MEDIA

  234. Robert Kerr says:


    I had this same crap from a SLAB socialist on Friday. The high tech Brimstone missile is just what we need. This lack of civilian collateral damage is the party line for war. Red Tory/Blue Tory.

    I checked it out. This missile is an anti-armour weapon with a shaped charge warhead. Almost all the explosion is directed forward to penetrate tank armour. The guidance is by high definition radar and this shall be supplemented with laser guidance soon.

    Still no clear understanding on how the pilot selects “out of sight” targets so that he can “fire and forget”.

    Manufacturers press release (military technobabble).


  235. Andrew McLean says:

    Another general states the obvious, bombing wont work it will just make matters worse. So we will need a full scale invasion force.

    This is the type of numbers involved, just from the USA. As you can see this is a major deployment, and this will be needed, not because we are facing a large professional army, but a in-bedded guerrilla force that will require clearing out house by house, in major populated areas, that is if it is the intention to destroy ISIS, if not then the containment approach at present will take years possibly a lifetime and not degrade their ability to organize and carry out attacks in the west.

    Given that it appears no one actually knows the numbers of ISIS fighters, so we wouldn’t know if we actually had removed the threat or would they most probably return to their farms and villages, merge with the local population till the task force left, or was reduced sufficiently to allow ISIS to reappear, this time even more extreme and hell bent on retribution from the West.

    So where is the logic of bombing? I think the best outcome would be for the UK to state no to bombing and seek a UN mandate for multinational task force.

    The problem is that Russia and Iran are already on the ground so you would end up splitting Syria in two, I suppose it already is two countries already.

    Nothing is easy in either scenario, simplistic solutions from simplistic men will destabilize further another region and this one is on the European border.

    We need effective leadership at this junction and unfortunately Cameron has shown he is really not up to the Job, if he examines his conscience rather than his ego he will realise that!

  236. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert Kerr.

    The Brimstone is indeed high technology. The main customer is Saudi Arabia,who as we know fund isis.
    Thd missile is programmed to recognise specific targets such as tanks, armoured personnel carriers etc and is meant to self destruct if unable to find a target.

    What they fail to mention however is that it has only a 90% success rate when tried in Libya and Iraq.

    Often the pods holding the three missiles detach from the plane and just simply fall.

    If you are within 100m of blast there are dangers from shrapnel both from the missile and object hit.

    If programmed to eradicate pick up trucks,as often used in the desert, I suggest locals revert to motorbikes instead. The Brimstone will not check your credentials before hitting youf Range Rover or Toyota.

  237. dakk says:

    RT is very good at reporting important news about UK/West that our corp/state media don’t want us to know.

    It is a tad more circumspect in how it reports Russian affairs,but overall is far more informative on what is really happening in the world than Sky or BBc etc.

  238. Ken500 says:

    Has exploration for shale only be done in the highly populated areas? Not in the empty places. Access.

    Westminster energy policies are adversly affecting the rest of the UKmas well. A double whammy. They are cutting off their nose to spite their face. They are incompetent and wasteful. Incompetent, ignorant and arrogant inexperienced amateurs.

    RGU are totally out of order giving an Honourary Technology Degree to Heyward. That is a total insult. BP is the worse company in Economic history. They are a disgrace. RGU should get their funding cut or be censored.

    More workers are now doing three weeks on three weeks off, to save money – less flights. This is more stressful for family life (break up), social ties and mental health issues. Assess to health care or emergencies.

  239. sensibledave says:

    Robert peffers

    You wrote “They demonstrate the idiotic practice of wrongly conflating the terms, “United Kingdom”, and, “British/Britain”.

    Alternatively Robert, you demonstrate a degree of pedantry and an inability to understand the concept of language in “common use”.

    Just to help you catch up, and so you are not confused in future conversations with “normal” people, most people use the term British – as being “of” Scotland, England, Wales or Northern Ireland. So, when you hear someone saying “British”, that’s what they mean.

    In addition, most people use the term UK interchangeably with “Britain” and us plebs understand what we mean without any difficulty.

    The term Great Britain has developed such that most uses of the term are confined to sport and maps. I don’t know anyone that would describe themselves as Great British. However, just to help you, most people understand a term like TeamGB as being a team made up of the best of the “British”.

    Now, you may well be right that those of us that use the terms above, and yet still understand each other are all idiots, – alternatively, if might be you that isn’t capable of following the development of language in common use.

    In order to assist further, and to help show how language develops, and starting at the beginning of the alphabet (I wont do the whole list) you may wish to check your personal use, and your meaning of, Abandon, Addict, Awful, Assassin, Bimbo, Broadcast, Bully, etc, etc. In many cases, if you use any of those words, your current understanding is often the exact opposite of their original meaning.

    Welcome to the 21st century Robert.

  240. heedtracker says:

    In addition, most people use the term UK interchangeably with “Britain” and us plebs understand what we mean without any difficulty.

    Its a continuing story of being a Brit sensibledave or rather being dragged into your Great Brit bullshit.

    Just ask Ireland, who seem to be doing a fcuk of a lot better not being Brits, or maybe not.

    Try asking an ex Brit in Ireland sensible, how hard they want to be British again?

  241. scotspine says:

    Just looked on and scrolled to the bottom to see what’s new.

    FFS folk. Stop reading or responding to the cretin named sensibledave.

    He is here to create division.

  242. Papadox says:

    @sensibledave says. 11:49am

    That is a very English way of trying to explain the usage of English vocabulary in England. However here in Scotland we see things slightly different and are told so by the mighty ENGLISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION. Presume you is a BRIT. Whatever that is.

  243. sensibledave says:

    Papadox 12:10 pm

    You wrote: “Presume you is a BRIT. Whatever that is.”

    Again, glad to help you out. In common usage and understanding all over the world, the term “Brit” usually refers to a person who is British (where British is as described by me, above, in common understanding).

    Furthermore, I rather suspect, that most people might describe you, correctly, as a Brit. You may be a reluctant Brit – but I think you may be one nevertheless – I am guessing though.

  244. Phil Robertson says:

    “Last week, Women for Independence announced it had been forced to call in Police Scotland to investigate £30,000 of missing donations.
    No it didn’t.”

    You’re using the actual figure as a smokescreen.
    What did happen was that ““Last week, Women for Independence announced it had been forced to call in Police Scotland to investigate missing donations.” That is the substantive point. Going round the houses with your own speculative figures allows you to avoid addressing the issue.

    And what wrong with “the source … who didn’t wish to be identified”. You’ll be telling us next that Nixon was innocent!

  245. dakk says:


    Just because words are in ‘common usage’ doesn’t make it right to use them if they are incorrect due to ignorance.This will just perpetuate the mistake.

    I for one am grateful to ‘pedants’ like Robert who take the time and trouble to seek more accuracy in use of language.

  246. Phil Robertson says:

    Mr Peffers
    “All British as it does NOT represent all parts of Britain (a.k.a. The British Isles).

    You should yourself be careful in your use of Britain and British Isles. Aristotle regarded Britain as comprising two large islands, the second being Ireland. Ptolemy went further and named them Great Britain and Little Britain.

    The irony of these definitions is that Britain encompasses more than Great Britain.

  247. Papadox says:

    @sensibledave says 12:18pm

    I most certainly live on an island known as Britain, However I am a Celt who was born and raised in Scotland of Scottish and Irish parentage.

    In my journey through life I have been to many foreign countries including dear old Engerland. The English use the expressions England and Britain to mean Engerland. They use Great Britain as shorthand for Engerland and some outlying native enclaves of no consequence they also believe, falsely that this includes NI.

    I am a Celt a Scot and I live in Scotland. I speak my own dialect of English as do most of the “normal” people I encounter in daily life and I have absolutely no interest in smart arses of any nationality.

  248. David McDowell says:

    ahundredthidiot at 11:01am

    If “The Red, White and Blue Book” worked it would be something the UK government would detest, not welcome, because it would sow seeds of uncertainty, doubt and division in people the UK government have irrefutably betrayed.

    No one knows if “The Red, White and Blue Book” would work, because we haven’t tried it.

    “The Red, White and Blue Book” would not be negative fearmongering. It would be telling the truth about something bad that has already happened, not lies about something bad that might or might not happen in the future.

    It should focus on an area that has been betrayed. e.g. PETERHEAD not on the issue at the centre of the betrayal, e.g. “carbon capture” so the cost of believing the lie is clear to those people.

    We are not trying to frighten and dupe those people into believing they will be betrayed/lose their jobs, etc. They have already lost their jobs.

    I don’t see it as a “negative” narrative to honestly and indisputably point out who sold them a lie and what it is costing them.

    When Rev Stu runs an article like “Another vow delivered” I don’t see anyone saying he is peddling a “negative” narrative or taking “the movement in a direction the UK government is just dying for us to take”. No one says that is “sideways” static or “sideways bad”, because it really isn’t.

    If it is right to have that sort of message on Wings Over Scotland perhaps it is right to roll out that sort of message on a wider scale?

    Let’s put that message directly in front of the people referred to in those articles, the ones who actually suffered the consequences, so they might be persuaded to change their minds.

    Those people are never going to come to Wings Over Scotland. We have to take the message to them. The truth can be a devastating weapon, but only if people are told what the truth actually is.

  249. sensibledave says:

    Papadox 12:58 pm

    If you have a passport, what does it say on the front cover?

    On mine is says United Kingdom – then inside it describes me as British nationality.

  250. dakk says:


    The first words at the top of your passport are

    ‘European Union’

    Sorry to upset you,but you have a European Union passport issued in the UK.

    And legally,you are a citizen of the European Union first.

    Perhaps after the EU ref,you may be in line to receive your navy blue ‘British’ passport once again.

    Perhaps not.

  251. Anagach says:

    mentions common usage

    So where is that common usage Dave ?, its not where I am, but it may be where you are ?

  252. sensibledave says:

    Dakk 1.40

    Lets get back to pedantry and agree what the front cover says:

    “European Union
    United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.”

    Inside, it says my Nationality is “British”.

    And, if there is a vote to leave the EU then, I assume, references to the European Union will be removed from passports in the future and return to the old style? British Passport United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland – and I make the comment without having made my mind up whether I want to vote yes or no in the referendum.

    … so what is your point?

  253. dakk says:


    My point is you have a European Union Passport and are a citizen of the European Union.

    Sorry if that upsets you.

    The blurb on the inside is just that.

  254. sensibledave says:

    Dakk 3.22

    So, should we assume Papadox is a Brit?

  255. dakk says:


    It was you who asked what it says on the front cover of Papadox’s passport.

    I merely answered, adding what you somehow overlooked.

    Funny that.

  256. sensibledave says:

    Dakk 3.35

    Its also got a picture of Lions, unicorns, crowns, etc – and that isn’t relevant to the point being discussed either. Are you a Troll?

  257. jcd says:

    If I can squeeze in between those who for reasons best known to themselves continue to insist on feeding the troll, I think the idea of a “look what they said/did then and look what they’re saying doing now” red white and blue book is the sort of important thing that should be focused on if we want support for independence to get to 55-60%

    I don’t mean right now on this thread but in general, or is it going to be just another good idea that nothing will come of, like inform-Scotland.

  258. David McDowell says:

    jcd at 5:05pm
    “is [The Red, White and Blue Book] going to be just another good idea that nothing will come of?”

    I hope people will think about the idea of a “Red, White and Blue Book”. It’s not meant for “yes” and “don’t knows” – only for the specific group of “No’s” betrayed by the UK government. It’s possible some of those people are now asking themselves: “what the hell was I thinking when I voted ‘No’?!”

    It’s human nature to look for someone to blame, and I think we should be helping them blame it on the right people.

    Perhaps this pamphlet will be a tipping point where they can no longer sustain their unexamined faith in the UK government in the face of their own harsh, personal experience?

    At least with “The Red, White and Blue Book” no one can argue it isn’t true.

    I am encouraged people here aren’t just dismissing the idea out of hand – which might suggest it has some merits.

  259. David McDowell says:

    jcd at 5:05pm

    Perhaps Wings should put up a voting widget to get some idea of broad opinion on whether it is a good idea or not?

  260. David McDowell says:

    And make it a FREE vote! ha ha

  261. yesindyref2 says:

    Interestingly enough my comments remained in the Herald, none deleted, after I posted here they’d probably be deleted or the thread closed and all comments removed.

    “Coincidentally” that’s happened before.

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