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Poking the bear

Posted on November 28, 2015 by

pokebear

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    1. 28 11 15 11:18

      Poking the bear | Politics Scotland | Scoop.it

    327 to “Poking the bear”

    1. theMadMurph says:

      We just need to check with President Trump for permission to use them, get the firing codes, and if we’re lucky the bear will be thousands of miles away and have no capability to retaliate! Well worth the £200 billion for that reassurance!

    2. jimnarlene says:

      Yes David, America and France both have nuclear weapons; we know how that worked out.

    3. Auld Rock says:

      Amen to that MadMurph.

      Auld Rock.

    4. Auld Rock says:

      @jimnarlene. Big difference is that France doesn’t have to ask for America’s permission to use!!!

      Auld Rock

    5. yesindyref2 says:

      @theMadMurph
      The RN doesn’t use firing codes, it uses keys.

    6. gerry parker says:

      Great cartoon Chris. My grand-daughter (5)looked at it and said “that bear is going to bite him papa”
      I wonder what grown ups think?

    7. heraldnomore says:

      Best Political Blogger eh.

      No surprise here.

      Well done Stu, hugely deserved recognition.

    8. sensibledave says:

      gerry parker 8:08 am

      You wrote “My grand-daughter (5)looked at it and said “that bear is going to bite him papa”
      I wonder what grown ups think?”

      I hope you told her that the bear bit a hundred and odd people in Paris last week following eating people in Lebenon, Turkey, Iraq and Syria – but that we mustn’t do anything to the bear in return because, if we do, some other bears might get cross.

    9. jimnarlene says:

      @Auld Rock, indeed; but my point was the same as the cartoon. Weapons of mass destruction, do not prevent terrorist attacks on the owners/renters of said weapons.

    10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Best Political Blogger eh.”

      Guido Fawkes won it.

    11. JaMur says:

      Next stop hell.
      Need to get oor wee Alba away pronto.

    12. gerry parker says:

      I said ” I wonder what the grown ups think”

    13. Ken500 says:

      What about the Russian bear with all the trump cards? ISIL is a minny mouse compared to that lot. It will be eaten up and tossed out. Just another excuse for ego fawning. They love a Parade and another illegal war game. ie regime change. Never mind the millions who suffer.

    14. sensibledave says:

      gerry parker 8:43 am

      I said ” I wonder what the grown ups think”

      Oh, you mean like Angus Robertson – that said in HoC that he wants to see a fully “costed” plan before he decides whether the bear has been naughty?

    15. Famous15 says:

      May I just say to those who have an inflated view of their own intelligence that to repeat an action and hope for a different outcome is not very sensible!

    16. Anagach says:


      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Guido Fawkes won it.

      I dont find his site easy, by the time the advert loads its hard to see if there is an article in the middle of the page.

      And the comments are no form of discussion – more 4Chan for the political net trolls.

    17. Ken500 says:

      Best blogger – Wings over Scotland. Way ahead of the Game, to public aclaim. Genius

      Awards are politically biased. Everyone knows the score.

    18. Anagach says:


      sensibledave says:
      Oh, you mean like Angus Robertson – that said in HoC that he wants to see a fully “costed” plan before he decides whether the bear has been naughty?

      I am guessing Angus Robertson did not say that. The decision does not relate to a judgement on any person or organization having been ‘naughty’.

      The decision is to kill Syrians with bombers. For an unspecified duration (France has been at it 14 months already) for unspecified outcomes (see under Paris) with unspecified ballpark costs (Afghanistan was £37bn and 13 years, and hundreds of our own dead and damaged). With no legal or morale case that would stand the scrutiny of International Law.

      But you have a good line in trivialization.

    19. Finnz says:

      Somehow I do not think Daesh will be too bothered if there was any nuclear retaliation. Which sort of makes the idea of a deterrent rather pointless…

    20. sensibledave says:

      Famous15 8:50 am

      “May I just say to those who have an inflated view of their own intelligence that to repeat an action and hope for a different outcome is not very sensible!”

      Another repetition of some trendy, smug, apparently irrefutable “truth” I see.

      Personally, I am a bit more with Robert The Bruce – and Nelson Mandela when he said “The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.”

    21. heraldnomore says:

      oops, sorry Stu. What an awful decision…

    22. galamcennalath says:

      Great cartoon as always.

      Two years ago Cameron was all for bombing Assad, now he wants to bomb ISIS. Looks like any brown people in the Middle East will do for a bit of UKOK plumage display.

      I still see ISIS as One small component. Whether they are there, or not, probably makes no great difference to the overall stability of Syria/Iraq and the wider Middle East. If ISIS are seriously weakened, the void will probably be filled by another Sunni Jihadist group within months. It is not going to easy to get that ideology back in the bottle.

      Most civilian deaths have been caused by the Assad regime. Most of refugees who fled did so from Assad. However, Assad is popular with some sections of Syria whose survival probably now relies on his presence. The Russian are the to ensure Assad stays in power. ISIS’s presence or absence will do little to change this situation.

    23. galamcennalath says:

      Anagach says:

      “Guido Fawkes won it.
      I dont find his site easy”

      I must say I have never found it very interesting because it deals mainly with WM politics (obviously).

      When it does turn attention to anything Scottish it seems to do little more than regurgitate standard CorpMedia output with no added value. No new or original take on our politics. In that respect, it seems to be simply another part of the establishment.

      If we were considering the Best Political Blog for Scottish affairs, order-order wouldn’t even be a contender. Fair enough, it is another part of the London Bubble. And, that Bubble has a reflective coating on the inside!

    24. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 28 November, 2015 at 7:47 am:”

      “The RN doesn’t use firing codes, it uses keys.”

      Aye! yesindyref2, They have had them cut by the guy with the key cutting shop on Cowdenbeath High Street since Rosyth was doing the nuclear submarines.

      Aye!
      Richt!
      Sheesh!

    25. Ken500 says:

      The Unionist troll is trying to disrupt the and ruin the site. The Unionists have wrecked every other website. Wings is so successful because it is Unionist free.

    26. Helena Brown says:

      That bear looks angry, more like the Russian Bear than a Middle Eastern one. Now I do not know who is who to fight, do we fight Assad, do we fight with those who are fighting against Assad supposedly ISIS and companions, who the hell do we fight with and once the fighting is done, we have had our erses kicked again, who do we settle up with.
      Looking at the state of Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, we are doing such a marvellous job, will this be all over by “Christmas” once again?

    27. Andrew McLean says:

      Just wondering if the French bombs have killed enough women and children yet to number the casualty rate in France? And once they do if they haven’t already can we bomb France as a terrorist state, since the London bombers were from Leeds will we bomb there too?

      Yes I know Syria is a problem but we do pay our politicians a great deal, I don’t think we are getting our money’s worth,. Interesting to read another special forces general stating bombing alone won’t work! And that collateral damage is unavoidable, no matter how precise the bombing as the death cult are bunkered down amongst the civilian population!

      So the only way is cut the borders and a large UN force to go in then we might, just might be in with a chance?

      Idea for a cartoon! all the leaders involved are in a pub, God appears holding a dead child breaks a bottle on the bar and wielding it in fron of the drinkers says ! No Bastiard leaves till I find the cunt that did this!

    28. dramfineday says:

      As always Chris, very adroit. A mighty cross looking bear and a very small pointy stick to poking it with.

    29. frogesque says:

      Cameron will find poking a very live and hungry bear a bit different to poking a dead pig.

      Perhaps we should have a new board game, Animal Crackers.

    30. Robert Peffers says:

      @Anagach says: 28 November, 2015 at 8:57 am:

      “sensibledave says:”

      One wonders if sensibledave understands the old Scots expression, “awa an bile yer heid”?

    31. Angra Mainyu says:

      Galamcennalath, I’d like to know what data this is base on: “Most civilian deaths have been caused by the Assad regime.”

      You realise the story about using chemical weapons was fake, right? Or to be precise, the story that Assad used sarin was trashed matter of factly by none other than Porton Down scientists who proved it couldn’t have been from Assad’s stores… It’s worth looking it o that, if you don’t know the story. And interesting how the story just disappeared.

      You make a couple of other little errors but nothing major… Like “any brown people in the Middle East will do” which isn’t the case.

      A key ingredient is they need to be defenceless. That’s why Assad and his people jumped from potential targets to potential allies in a heartbeat; they now have Russia and Iran helping them which means, despite remaining brown, they ceased to be defenceless.

      Not sure about the ideology stuff either but it’s sort of tautological to say that you find your official enemy’s ideology unpleasant. We have never bombed anyone who had an ideology that we really liked. Point being, it’s always necessary to define enemy ideology as evil and what not…

      Apart from all that, great…

      I’m just sowing seeds, some grown and some don’t.

    32. Thepnr says:

      Thanks for the cartoon Chris, gives me an opportunity to remind us all of part of the advice given by Attorney General Lord Goldsmith to Tony Blair prior to invading Iraq in 2003.

      Possible legal bases for the use of force:

      2. As I have previously advised, there are generally three possible bases for the use of force: (a) self-defence (which may include collective self-defence);

      (b) exceptionally, to avert overwhelming humanitarian catastrophe; and

      (c) authorisation by the Security Council acting under Chapter VII of the UN Charter.

      3. Force may be used in self-defence if there is an actual or imminent threat of an armed attack; the use of force must be necessary, ie the only means of averting an attack; and the force used must be a proportionate response. It is now widely accepted that an imminent armed attack will justify the use of force if the other conditions are met.

      The concept of what is imminent may depend on the circumstances. Different considerations may apply, for example, where the risk is of attack from terrorists sponsored or harboured by a particular State, or where there is a threat of an attack by nuclear weapons.

      However, in my opinion there must be some degree of imminence. I am aware that the USA has been arguing for recognition of a broad doctrine of a right to use force to pre-empt danger in the future. If this means more than a right to respond proportionately to an imminent attack (and I understand that the doctrine is intended to carry that connotation) this is not a doctrine which, in my opinion, exists or is recognised in international law.

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/apr/28/election2005.uk

    33. Andrew McLean says:

      Thepnr 9:55
      Theirs you and your big mouth telling it like it is again, Jesus I heard that slap on Cameron’s face from here!

    34. Bob Mack says:

      Many Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans and others have have fallen. They will not rise again dave.They are dead.Beyond your words of resilience.

    35. dakk says:

      Nice one Chris 🙂

      I see Dave is back in his rabid powderpuff mode.

      Much prefer the perky sensibledave. Are you I’ll again dave ?

    36. galamcennalath says:

      Helena Brown says:

      “who the hell do we fight wIth”

      Everyone, or no one?

      https://mobile.twitter.com/StFilansDream/status/670539339659681792/photo/1

    37. Ken500 says:

      Syrian population was 23Million. Since the start of the Civil War 2011, 4million have become refugees. 210,000 have been killed. How many have been killed by Western bombing. Along poverty, disease and starvation, the bombing have caused. The West has been bombing been illegally for years. Now they want to to bomb some more illegally.

      The West UK/US have been funding and arming the non Syrian rebels fighting against the Assad regime. US/UK call it the ‘Free Syrian Army’. They include Daresh. The West instigated much of the bloodshed. The West acted secretly and illegally to escalate the crisis. UK/US and France have caused the worse migration crisis in Europe since 11WW.

      Syria was one of the most beautiful countries in the Middle East, of which there are many with some of the nicest caring people on the Planet. Westerns have lived in the Middle East happily for years. It fact They covert it.

      The People in some ME countries do not have the vote, no universal suffrage.The West reneged on promises of it. They do not have any rights, so they cannot change their society as they would like. The West has cultivated their resources for years. Over a hundred years and have funded, armed and back up despot, autocratic and Apartheid regimes which would not be tolerated in the West.

      How would Obama like being treated as a second class citizen with no voting or human rights? There would be outrage.

    38. Dan Huil says:

      “The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.”

      Keep going with referendums until Scotland regains its independence.

    39. Ken500 says:

      Goldsmith later got brainwashed by America and agreed the Iraqi Invasion was legal.

    40. Dan Huil says:

      When will you Jocks understand! The Butcher’s Apron wants more blood, and by gad Sir, it shall have it! Jocks! Know your place!

    41. HandandShrimp says:

      Going after Daesh has merit if there is a clear plan and an end game. Cameron has no clear plan. Russia does. Russia is backing the current Government and intends to use its firepower to provide air cover for the Syrian army.

      We have a clear plan in Iraq. We are using our air power to support the Kurdish autonomous government and the Iraqi government. We give air cover to the Iraqi army and the Peshmerga forces to drive Daesh out of Iraqi territory.

      Unless we can come to an accord with Assad and the Russians, involvement in Syria will lead to a conflict of interests and flash points as dangerous if not more dangerous than the Russia/Turkey one.

      Cameron wittering on about supposed moderate rebels and that we should back them is frankly pish of the Blairite 45 minutes type. Any examination of the various rebel factions reveals varying degrees of radical madness – some as brutal if not more so than Daesh. The Kurds in Syria are perhaps a reliable friend but assisting them will give Turkey a torn face because they have been breaching Syrian air space to bomb the Kurds.

      We have enough on our plate using our 6 Tornado aircraft to assist the Iraqi forces. Cameron has given no sensible explanation what we can achieve in Syria, what additional forces we need to deploy in order not to take our eye off Iraq and no credible explanation as to which boots on the ground we will back in order to actually drive Daesh out.

      A few bombs in Syria, if they can find anything left to bomb, will not protect us from nutters, who will almost certainly end up being UK citizens. Vigilance, good policing and assistance from affected communities in the UK are our best defence. Sanity and political settlement in the Middle East the long term defence…if achievable.

    42. caz-m says:

      Three Tory cabinet ministers are trying to sweet talk the Red Tories within the Labour Party this weekend to vote FOR bombing Syria.

      Corbyn needs to get tough with these Red Tory rebels, if he doesn’t, they will vote him out as leader.

      Then, I can see a split within the Labour Party. Corbyn will take his supporters to his new Party and the Red Tories will become an irrelevant force.

      The real Tories will rule over the UK for decades to come.

      It doesn’t have to be like that in Scotland, we have a get out option. I just hope we use it.

    43. Ian Brotherhood says:

      156 civilians killed in Iraq since last Saturday, including 28 children in French airstrike in Mosul:

      https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/recent/

    44. HandandShrimp says:

      caz-m

      I don’t hold out much hope for Corbyn and the PLP. Many of the loons keen to bomb are the same loons that were keen anything they could 10 to 15 years ago. They were the problem so Corbyn has zero chance of finding a solution from them.

    45. Capella says:

      I wondered why you pictured ISIS as a bear. But if anyone is puzzled about the Russian perception of what is going on in Syria, I recommend RT. For instance:

      “A Syrian rebel commander who boasted of killing a Russian pilot after Turkey downed Russian jet on Tuesday appeared to be Turkish ultranationalist and a son of former mayor in one of Turkish provinces.
      Alparslan Celik, deputy commander of a Syrian Turkmen brigade turned out to be the son of a mayor of a Keban municipality in Turkey’s Elazig province.

      He also turned out to be the member of The Grey Wolves ultranationalist group, members of which have carried out scores of political murders since 1970s.”

      https://www.rt.com/news/323658-turkmen-commander-turkish-ultra/

      Shooting someone parachuting down from a burning plane is, of course, a war crime.

      If Cameron wants to do something about ISIS he could tell his ally Saudi Arabia and NATO ally Turkey to stop financing them and stop arming the “moderate rebels” such as Alparslan Celik.

      As for Russian motivation – anyone remember Chechnya, the Moscow Theatre attack, the Beslan school massacre?

    46. Gary45% says:

      sensibledave@9.07am
      I tend not to bother with your innate ranting’s,
      but was very happy to notice you are a ” bit more with Nelson Mandela”.
      What is your opinion on the Palestine situation?
      As the great man you refer to quoted,
      “We know well that our freedom, is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians”

      Sometimes in conflict you have to look at a much bigger picture, try and understand the west has caused this problem, there is absolutely NO DENYING that.

      I have friends who were in Syria just before all the troubles started, they said it was one of the most beautiful, friendliest countries they had ever visited.
      It pisses me off when we have certain “establishment lackeys” who have only one agenda, to feather their own nest and bow down the boys with the bigger toys.
      Yes Assad has problems, some of which he is guilty of, but who gives us the right to invade his country.
      I am sick to the back teeth hearing “the majority of the UK population are behind an invasion”.
      Lets ask the electorate, before the situation is beyond repair.

    47. The Isolator says:

      Looks like Corbyn’s toast.Voting in a pretendy leftie worked out well for them.UK membership soars then a coup follows.Nice …popcorn at the ready.

      Fabby toon as usual Chris,as always bang on the money.I see not so sensible is back online.Notso please tell junior to stop pinging my IP ffs.

    48. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Very important

      petition.parliament.uk/petitions/113064

    49. Ealasaid says:

      Wow Chris!

      Just when I think you cannot get any better at summing up the situation in one picture you always do. Fantastic!

    50. Luigi says:

      Corbyn needs to quickly grow a pair, whip his warmongering red tory “rebels” to vote against bombing Syria and accept their resignations. None of this free vote nonsense – what a cop out. By placating his enemies, Corbyn ensures the destruction of his beloved party. He has very little time left, and absolutely nothing to lose by forcing the issue – it is time to take a stance. His long-term objectives may sound fine but he is unlikely to last long enough. His feeble behaviour to date is something worse than useless.

    51. Andrew McLean says:

      Never mind Syria we need to invade this place
      a 5 year old girl executed, and a 6 year old child died of fear after the clashes in Al Baghdadi residential compound
      Oh sorry I forgot Tony Blair made it safe.

      bush said the cause was good

      He and Tony prayed together

      Cameron has his gut felling him it’s all ok! We will kill the bad guys cause we are the good guys and anyway their are thousands of good guys to help us, so with God on or side it will be all over by Christmas now won’t that be fun!

      I need to kill indiscriminately to stop the indiscriminate killings? And this fucking baffon is our prime minister! This is beyond parody it’s beyond madness it’s absolute insanity!

    52. Valerie says:

      Great toon Chris, very apt, as we sleep walk into war.

      Agree with Angra Mainyu @9.55

      Folk talking about Assad, need to read a bit further on the international sites like Common Dreams, hosting pieces from a wide range like John Pilger, academics, war analysts etc.

      The gas attacks were widely disproved, but media outlets pound away with it.

      Can you honestly say Assad is the monster, when we know for a fact that Da’esh is a western creation to destabilise? Do you think the West would baulk at fabricating their ‘evidence’?

      Come on, folk, it’s as if you don’t live in Scotland.

      I’m sure he is no saint, but as mentioned, Syria was a jewel.

      I’m sure the last time I checked, Cameron is there thanks to 24% of the electorate. Assad has support from about 40%.

    53. Gavin says:

      I see our resident unionist troll is out in force this morning, spouting his usual pro establishment nonsense from high in his ivory tower.

      I suggest some bedtime reading for those who need educated about the current Middle East situation. The Rise of Islamic State by Patrick Cockburn neatly sums up the disastrous effects of western intervention in the Middle East. How the west created the conditions for the rise of Isis by stoking the wars in Syria and Iraq.

      Mr Cameron wants to continue stoking the war, creating more bloodshed, more extremism, and yet more refugees.

    54. Ken500 says:

      Colbyn has the support if the ordinary members. 60%+ support him. Any vote to illegally bomb will cause outrage and flush the rebel MP’s out. There could be an attempt to deselect them. Any attempt to oust Colbyn will have the same affect. Especially when things go wrong (and they will) and the body bags fill up again. A recipe for disaster for Westminster clones. This is just another unaffordable charade.

      The Tories are already destroying the Scottish/UK economy. Whenever they came to power they were determined to destroy the Scottish economy to try and prevent support for FFA/Independence. Osbourne has ruined the Oil sector with extortionate taxes (75%) which no other industry has to bear. Losing thousands of jobs in Scotland/UK, meaning loss of production (60%) and more Oil & Gas having to be imported (including US fracked Gas) putting up the balance of payments deficit and the Debt.

      (Foreign) multinationals making vast profits tax evade through the City of London. Osbourne and his cronies evade tax in the City of London and defraud and embezzle public funds.£Million/Billions. The only reason they joined a political party. This illegal exercise is just another attempt for Cameron/Osbourne and their cronies to embezzle and defraud public funds, making vast profits out of illegal war. Costing £Billions. When vulnerable people can’t heat, eat or sleep for worry, making them sick. Putting up the NHS bill. Worried people get sick.

    55. Breeks says:

      Playing devil’s advocate a moment, and supposing I was persuaded that a military intervention was required, it strikes me that air bombing is the least effective way of achieving anything.

      I remember a British Army recruitment advert on TV where the plucky British squaddie was better able to engage with an angry African gunman because he took off his sunglasses to make eye contact. Since we now assassinate people with drones with neither eye contact (nor trial), I am left to wonder where, when, and why this fundamental change in philosophy occurred.

      I “get” that drone strikes and bombs from afar reduces the risk of casualties in our armed forces, but you surely have to consider how this strategy is perceived on the ground. We become the cowards who run away from battle and leave dead children in our wake. Whether we do or we don’t is irrelevant, because our enemies remain to poison the minds of their neighbours.

      For goodness sake, can we not surrender our principles for knee jerk retaliatory air strikes which achieve nothing? Are we not smarter than that?

      To play Devil’s advocate once again; just suppose the USA had contained it’s rage and wounded indignation when the World Trade Centre buildings were attacked, and instead of military retribution, the incident was addressed as a criminal action to be addressed by international policing. I know, that would be a bitter pill for the wounded population of America to swallow, but it would be an enduring shame upon the heads of all Muslim fundamentalists, and a bastion of moral authority for those who respect the fundamentalism of justice; true, real, and uncompromising justice.

      Suppose America had chosen that fork in the road. I cannot believe we would now be in the mess we are now.

      Of course, we have to remember that the sanctity of justice would have implications for the Isrealis. But perhaps we might for the first time in a long time be getting closer to a resolution and lasting peace in the Middle East than running headlong in the opposite direction.

    56. ArtyHetty says:

      Great image Chris. Let’s hope we are not taken into another useless, tragic war. It is absolutely insane, anyone wanting to do so should be the ones to go, front line.

      I really feel for for the people of Turkey, on reading last night about the two journalists being arrested on obvious trumped up charges. The people there clearly do not want war either, it looks like trouble is brewing with so much anger there.

      I guess most journalists here just conform to what is expected, and don’t criticise government so no need to arrest them for telling the truth. At least they were my thoughts on reading about the situation in Turkey.

    57. ahundredthidiot says:

      US sponsored regime change has failed in Syria and on the road to failing in Ukraine.

      Russians have had enough and probably wouldn’t be doing what they’re doing without China’s agreement.

      Japan can’t get armed quickly enough.

      Fun times ahead.

    58. Andrew McLean says:

      Breaks says at 11:30
      Good points well made, in my view it was the fall of the USSR, they just needed another enemy so created the axis of evil!
      I do remember sitting with my squad and one guy said how can you tell who the enemy is, one wit replied it’s easy they’ll be the ones trying to kill you! How we laughed.

    59. heedtracker says:

      Skies of the middle east fill up with Russian and western jet fighters, bombers, killer robot drones, cult of the rule Britannia toryboys fcuk it all up over and over.

      How come there’s been nothing from wing commander Kez?

      SLabour are desperate for war via tweets and safety of Scotland.

      Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall Nov 26
      Duncan Hothersall Retweeted Kevin Peters
      THERE’S ALREADY A WAR. You think you’re fighting for peace? You’re fighting to leave people to die.

      Blood thirsty, ignorant, jingo’s and zealot’s, V for Victory, crush the enemy, death or glory, once more into the breach, defeat IS, your country needs you, punch above our weight, be a UKOK world power forever and ever… vote SLabour, not red tories.

    60. Valerie says:

      I like James O’Brien on LBC, he is very articulate.

      I’m not really a fan of Hitchens, but this clip makes real sense
      https://audioboom.com/boos/3859052-peter-hitchens-on-cameron-s-delusional-case-for-war

    61. Kinda OT

      For all you fans of Chris Cairns (i.e. everyone) there is an opportunity to see him in the flesh (well, not too much flesh) on Tuesday, December 8th from 7pm in the West End Hotel, Fort William.

      Chris will be talking ‘toons & politics plus there will be an audience question and answer session. Signed prints and copies of his latest book will be available at a special event price.

      Entry is free.

    62. ahundredthidiot says:

      Breeks@11:30

      Haha, sorry, had to laugh, you make good points, but 9/11? Wake up. Let me guess, you think two world trade centres came down that day?

    63. galamcennalath says:

      Angra Mainyu says:
      at 9:55 am

      I’d like to know what data this is base on: “Most civilian deaths have been caused by the Assad regime.”

      It is an assymetrical war. The side using heavy weapons and air power in urban areas seems bound to cause most civilian deaths.

      If you are hinting that many of the so called observer sites listing death figures may be biased, you may be right. One in particular seems to be quoted by media continually, I have no idea if it is accurate.

      However, the internet is full of reports by organisations who appear to have no axe to grind. One would be …

      https://s3.amazonaws.com/PHR_Reports/doctors-in-the-crosshairs.pdf

      “Government forces were responsible for 93 percent of the 162 medical personnel killed in the last year. ”

      “any brown people in the Middle East will do” which isn’t the case.

      A key ingredient is they need to be defenceless.

      I agree they need to be defenceless. My point was that there is a disgusting human life value system which puts Western citizens first, Middle Eastern people lower, and Africans at the bottom. Violence, terrorism, war in Africa barely gets a mention if no Westerners are involved. The Middle East is little better. An ISIS attack in Beirut a few days before Paris barely got mentioned. In fact it probably got mentioned more only after Paris.

      I am highly skeptical about countries who are arms manufacturers/exporters being so keen to use their arms on real targets. Because of attitudes to the relative value of human life, brown people appear to make less controversial targets. Collateral damage in the Middle East, will sadly be accepted, again.

      Not sure about the ideology stuff either but it’s sort of tautological to say that you find your official enemy’s ideology unpleasant.

      I’ll be honest, I don’t think the neo-Con ideology of the West is pleasant either. However, militant Jihadist Islam is an ideology of the masses, not the elite. As such, it is going to be much more difficult to ‘weed out’.

    64. David McDowell says:

      If only it was Cameron poking the big, mean bear! They always send some other mug to do the dangerous stuff!

    65. heedtracker says:

      Valerie says:
      28 November, 2015 at 11:50 am
      I like James O’Brien on LBC, he is very articulate.

      Or just common sense.

      The Grand Old Duke of Pork, he had seventy thousand Syrian men.

    66. Kevin Evans says:

      This is just a massive destabilisation attempt by everyone to bring in a universal one world agenda – and the reason Putin gets so much crap is because he doesn’t want to sign up to the wests democracy they try and impose on everyone else.

      The west were rubbing there hands as soon as Russia got involved in this because now they can pressure them to sign up to the wests way of thinking.

    67. Graham MacLure says:

      Breeks@11:30

      Excellent post.
      May I suggest that the path taken after 9:11 was entirely for the benefit of the corporate West?

    68. Harry McAye says:

      Sensible Dave, OK we go in as Camerion wants and have some success against ISIL but sadly kill, let’s say, 131 civilians. That makes us worse than the Paris attackers and terrorists too. Even if we don’t kill any civilians we are still spreading terror to the communities around Raqqa, many of them will be anti-ISIL but too scared to do anything about them.

      Maybe Western cities will hold candle lit vigils for all the innocent civilians we inevitably kill, maybe we’ll have a minutes silence. Aye, maybe!

    69. heedtracker says:

      To play Devil’s advocate once again; just suppose the USA had contained it’s rage and wounded indignation when the World Trade Centre buildings were attacked, and instead of military retribution, the incident was addressed as a criminal action to be addressed by international policing

      This is all interesting but it doesn’t explain why Labour, Blair, Brown etc went to war with the US, Bush etc?

      Chilcott’s being held back for all the usual UKOK fraud reasons and by all the usual sneaky shits but if it is ever published, it probably wont explain the insane war mongering of New red tory Labour.

      Above all else, Scotland has a goof chance to keep warmongering red tories out of office for good. No matter how hard the BBC fight to get SLab back in power, we must never let them back in.

    70. Ken500 says:

      Putin can cut off the Gas and starve Europe.

    71. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 28 November, 2015 at 8:41 am:

      ““Best Political Blogger eh.”

      Guido Fawkes won it.”

      Nah!
      Now! Now!, Rev Stu.

      You know, I know and everyone in Scotland knows that it is always the Daily Record, “Wot wins it”

    72. schrodingers cat says:

      atrueindependentscotland.com/john-pilger-on-paris-isis-and-media-propaganda/

      pilger

      wahhabist jihadis isis and al nusra

      funded by Saudi and turkey and the west…..
      fsa doesn’t exist, only a front for other wahhabist jihadis

    73. Great artwork Chris.

      Documented civilian deaths from violence in Iraq since
      Labour party took us to war in 2003.
      147,264 – 167,069

      https://www.iraqbodycount.org/

    74. Ken500 says:

      26,000 a year kill each other with guns in the US, 6,000 by other means + suicides + drug/alcohol deaths. The US administration doesn’t even protect it’s own citizens . The citizens arm themselves against the Government. They don’t even trust their own government.

    75. ahundredthidiot says:

      What still amazes me is most folk in the Yes campaign thought the MSM told lies throughout indyref1, before, during and after, yet still believe their ‘other’ stories.

      Silent crowd for the names of the Paris incident on the news. Politicians and ‘families’ in attendance and not a tear insight, nor distraught parents, nor a withdrawal of permission to use a name.

      I don’t buy it, but feel free. State owned media, in the West are pathological liars. I don’t believe a word they say, but you feel free. It’s hard to admit to being scammed.

      Here’s an example;

      Fucking YouTube had deid Russian pilot within minutes, feck on Paris, feck. Couple of grainy distance shots, and every interview the words insinuate so as not to incriminate.

      I’d rather not partake, but please, feel free.

    76. Ken500 says:

      The Iraqi deaths caused by the illegal war. Millions were killed and maimed. The country was devasted. It was worse than under Saddam and Western sanctions. The West just wanted the Oil. . They could have just purchased it.

    77. Ealasaid says:

      For those that wish the link to the petition:

      Vote no on military action in Syria….

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/113064

      100,000 votes will force a debate in parliament.

    78. X_Sticks says:

      Breeks says:
      “just suppose the USA had contained it’s rage and wounded indignation when the World Trade Centre buildings were attacked, and instead of military retribution, the incident was addressed as a criminal action to be addressed by international policing. I know, that would be a bitter pill for the wounded population of America to swallow, but it would be an enduring shame upon the heads of all Muslim fundamentalists, and a bastion of moral authority for those who respect the fundamentalism of justice; true, real, and uncompromising justice.

      Suppose America had chosen that fork in the road. I cannot believe we would now be in the mess we are now.”

      It’s such a pity we can’t rewind and replay with a different scenario. As you say Breeks, things could have been so different. After 9/11 America had the whole world onside including the vast majority of Muslims. Had they gone down the route of justice rather than global war we’d be living in a much diffferent world right now. George Bush, Tony Blair and the right wing hawks of the world have a LOT to answer for.

      Great cartoon as always Chris. That bear has a slightly Russion look about it and I don’t think poking it will make things better for anyone.

    79. schrodingers cat says:

      non Wahhabi Islamic jihadist rebel groups? I think not

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/syria-air-strikes-debate-david-cameron-challenged-over-magical-70000-moderates-figure-a6750161.html

      Why did Cameron make the ridiculous ‘WMD lie’ there 70,000 ‘moderate’ FSA in Syria?

      David Cameron, in his House of Common’s statement attempting to justify bombing Syria, used a blatant lie that there are 70,000 ‘moderate’ members of the Free Syrian Army (FSA) in Syria. This plays exactly the same role as Tony Blair’s notorious lie that Iraq possessed WMD and that these could be used in 45 minutes.

      In a letter to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee Cameron claimed: ‘there are about 70,000 Syrian opposition fighters on the ground who do not belong to extremist groups.’

      This is a straightforward lie. The reality of the FSA is known to every serious observer. But to avoid suggestion of bias anti-war and left wing groups will not be quoted but only the US military, supporters of bombing Syria, and Tories.

      First, the actual commander of the US forces in Iraq and Syria explained the debacle which occurred when the US allocated $500 million to attempt to train ‘moderate’ anti-Assad forces in Syria.

      ‘General Lloyd Austin, the commander of U.S. Central Command… told Congress today that only “four or five” of the… U.S. trained moderate Syrian fighters remain in the fight against ISIS.

      ‘Christine Wormuth, the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, also told the Senate Armed Services Committee that there are currently between 100 and 120 fighters in a program that was slated to have trained 5,400 fighters in its first 12 months….

      ‘The first 54 graduates of the program were re-inserted into northern Syria in July and were quickly attacked by the Al Nusra Front, the dominant Islamist rebel group in Syria… When Austin was asked how many trained fighters remained in the fight he responded “it’s a small number,” before adding “the ones that are in the fight, we’re talking four or five.”’

      The Daily Mail analysed the attempt to develop a similar programme of ‘moderate’ anti-Assad forces by the UK and US: ‘both the US and British soldiers abandoned a training programme in the Middle East designed to ready 5,000 moderates for battle several months ago after it went disastrously wrong.

      ‘In an embarrassment for Coalition nations, only around 100 actually underwent training because they had struggled to find Syrian recruits untainted by extremist affiliations.’

      Regarding analysis by Tories: ‘Dr Julian Lewis, chairman of the defence select committee, asked: ‘Where are these magical 70,000 people?’, as Tory MP John Baron said the Prime Minister was being “extremely optimistic”.

      ‘Dr Lewis told the Commons: “The suggestion there are 70,000 non-Islamist, moderate, credible ground forces, I have to say, is a revelation.”

      ‘Tory MP Peter Lilley said ‘there are no moderates’ and suggested there was only ‘a rag-bag group of clans and tribal forces with no coherent force’.

      Even more bluntly Lilley stated: ‘I want you to convince me that what you refer to as the Free Syrian Army actually exists.’

      The idea that there are 70,000 ‘moderate’ FSA forces when all the US military can train are ‘four or five’ is absolutely ridiculous.

      Why, therefore, does Cameron state this absurd lie – which entirely ranks with Blair’s claim that Iraq had WMD which could be used in 45 minutes. It is because Cameron wants to conceal the reality which was entirely accurately described by Patrick Cockburn – and is the same as the one that took place in Libya after that country was bombed by NATO: ‘the departure of Assad would lead to a collapse of the state and the triumph of Isis and the self-declared caliphate.’

      In short the development in Syria would be the same as in Iraq and Libya. Previously marginalised and powerless ‘jihadist’ groups would become extremely powerful. This would not only be horrific for the people of the countries concerned but also form a base for terrorist attacks such as those against Paris and Mali.

      This is the reality that Cameron wants to conceal. This is why he invents the ridiculous lie there are 70,000 ‘moderate’ FSA in Syria.

    80. Valerie says:

      Haha! Taken from RT.

      Also, did you know the day before the Russian jet was downed, the Russians had succeeded in bombing a lot of the oil storage, and supplies.
      ___________________________

      Both the American and Turkish air forces halted their strikes on Syrian territory around the time Russia deployed S-400 air defense complexes at the Khmeimim airbase, from which it stages its own incursions against Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL).
      A spokesperson of the Combined Joint Task Force Operation Inherent Resolve (CJTF-OIR) told Sputnik on Friday that the absence of anti-IS coalition airstrikes “has nothing to do with the S400 deployment” in Syria.

    81. Daisy Walker says:

      Can I just thank sensible Dave.

      I really appreciate all the contributors on this site and I learn a lot, but since I tend to agree with most of them it can be a bit of a back slapping exercise.

      Then along comes Sensible Dave with his complete establishment views, which no amount of evidence will shake and it reminds me of some of the no voters I’ve met and their bat shit crazy arguments. And it toughens me up a bit. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.

      Thanks Sensible Dave. Keep up the good work. Oh, and since you are such a fan of warfare, can I take it you’ll be looking to join up soon? You know, walk the walk and all that.

      Do let us know, we’ll knit you some socks.

    82. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ealasaid –

      Thanks for the link.

      I know a lot of folk are sceptical about petitions, but what’s the harm in signing? It’s currently over 47k, and if it gets over 100k the government has to respond.

      We know how they’ll respond. Is that good reason not to sign? Big demo in London today – that won’t make any difference either, but should people just NOT go?

      Deja-vu, this feeling of helplessness. I’m enjoying a quiet Saturday afternoon, listening to Off The Ball, pottering about the kitchen, getting ready to go out for a birthday meal with the family. Right now, in Syria, thousands of families are doing likewise, and some of them are shortly going to be blown to pieces by weapons we paid for.

      George Sanders, the actor, left a suicide note which said ‘Goodbye sweet cesspool’. Times like this it’s not hard to understand how he must’ve been feeling.

      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/113064

    83. heedtracker says:

      Then along comes Sensible Dave with his complete establishment views

      War is good, for all right hard core tory regimes. Its good for hard core conservative politics, business, nationalist tub thumping, rally the plebs to the flag, or they’re ("Tractor" - Ed)s and cowards to the rule Britannia cult of it all.

      Or, how come teamGB is virtually the only European country at perpetual war, with WMD’s and ofcourse with red and blue toryboy cults in power?

      We came so close to shaking them off last year though.

    84. Bob Mack says:

      Some like sensibledave are the worst type of cowards. They want others to kill on their behalf.
      I have worked with many service personnel returning from active theatres. Hard men,haunted by the visions of war ,maimed children and mothers. They kill the enemy, but are haunted by even that part of their role.

      The enemy are faceless ,anonymous till they are killed. Only when you see them do you realise the full horror.

      Several guys killed themselves,unable to live with the guilt and the memories, Haunted and alone in a world few here at home could begin to understand.

    85. Fireproofjim says:

      ahundredthidiot@11.52
      I assume your rather unclear post implies that you subscribe to the nonsensical conspiracy theory that the CIA or the FBI or some other US organisation brought down the twin towers by explosives.
      I wonder how this was coordinated with the four hijacked airliners, two of which were seen by thousands of people crashing into the buildings.
      Any such building built around a structural steel frame will collapse when the steel is heated in a sufficiently hot fire. The jet fuel in the planes was more than adequate.
      Other conspiracy theories in recent posts say that Assad had no chemical weapons. He certainly did and under pressure from the UN he agreed to ship them to the Netherlands where they are currently being destroyed in specially built plants. He probably doesn’ have any now.
      Having said all that I do not agree with any of the Iraq/ Syria invasion. It was utter stupidity by Blair and Bush and Iraq had nothing to do with the twin towers attacks.
      I just don!t like wild conspiracy theories with no evidence except “a man in the pub said so.”

    86. gus1940 says:

      Looking at the current goings on in the PLP (not the party membership)leads me to the theory (conspiracy?) that since the advent of Blair’s New Labour the party has been a wholly owned susbsidiary of the US Government.

      For many years we in Europe have mocked the US Political System whereby there are only 2 parties with any hope of winning power and said parties would be considered right wing and extreme right wing.

      They go through the motion of holding elections every few years giving the public the impression that they are determining what their governbmnt will do while in reality whichever party wins power they ignore the electors and dance to the tune of those who finance/bribe them namely big business in particular The Military Industrial Complex.

      Is that not what we have now with the only difference being that our 2 parties Tory and Labour are right wing and not quite so right wing.

      Just look at the actions of leading Labour figures and their relationships with The US.

      Blair lodging himself up Bush’s backside, Brown spending half his time in The US, wee Dougie Alexander sucking up to them and Creepy Jim Murphy with the Henry Jackson Society.

      Just how many of the PLP are in the pocket of the US Govt.

    87. AuldA says:

      It’s a bear in the poke?

    88. msean says:

      If the UK joins the bombing,that will make 4 out of 5 official nuclear armed nations bombing Syria,you would’ve thought 3 of them would be enough. Yer trident is no good here, except to threaten your ‘allies’.

      If the UK is so respected in the diplomatic world,use that to control the isis funders. Stop selling them weapons and freeze their assets in the west.

    89. Proud Cybernat says:

      The vile SaberNats frothing and slabbering at the mooth, gagging to murder babies.

      Not in my name.

    90. gus1940 says:

      Several references have been made recently regarding Dugdale and her hairstyle being reminiscent of Max Wall.

      Can I suggest that Chris Cairns produces a carton showing her in Max Wall mode complete with tight suit doing Max’s silly walk.

    91. @ Ian Brotherhood
      “I know a lot of folk are sceptical about petitions,…”

      Well, include me in that list. Usually, I feel more inclined to sign the ones posted on the Holyrood and Westminster Parliament websites because if the target is reached it triggers a debate. However, the recent one calling for a no confidence vote in Cameron was fobbed off too easily for my liking.

      I haven’t noticed any advantage in signing at some of those well known petition websites. The clincher though was 38Degrees apparently handing over an existing petition to Gordon Brown.

      I’ll sign this one:
      https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/113064

    92. schrodingers cat says:

      I wonder if this vote for war in Syria in Westminster will be corbyn’s nemesis

      eric joyce replied to me on a wos thread that corbyn would need to hold and bring the rest of the plp mps with him.

      it looks less and less likely that corbyn can do this, I think eric was niave to think he could. mcternan is in full swing now, it is an out and out coup we are seeing. Cameron will wait until corbyn falls, then we will have a vote in the commons

      war is coming….happy fucking xmas everyone

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN4Uu0OlmTg

    93. Bob Mack says:

      A typical single 1000lb bomb dropped from an aircraft shoots out thousands of lethal fragments for a half mile radius. So it’s not just the target you hit that matters ,no matter how accurately you manage to aim.
      Bigger bombs have as a consequence a further blast /fragmentation range,
      So forget the crap you hear about accurate bombing. They will kill anything or anyone within the vicinity.

    94. heedtracker says:

      gus1940, how can you possibly leave out a Slabour red toryboy and all round socialist worker like this lunatic, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen?

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10751728/Scottish-independence-would-be-cataclysmic-for-the-world-ex-Nato-head-warns.html

      Cataclysmic Scotland, no longer run by red tories troughers for life, if only.

    95. Iain More says:

      It is a bizarre world we live in, a world where nuke weapons are supposed to uhmm protect us from the wicked of the world. The UK is armed to the teeth with them as is the USA and so on, as is France and a fat lot of good it did them.

      I hope I am not alone in thinking that Assad cant teach the Saudis or indeed Bahrain anything yet we are arming them to the teeth with other weapons, meanwhile the Saudis were bombing some of their other neighbours.

      I have to assume that the Brit Nats and the lickspittles they employ in the Brit Nat Press and Media are all addicted to some kind of hallucinogenic since they are busy preparing us for another war against the supposed evil of the world. I think I will go back to the dark room before it gets too crowded again.

    96. Anagach says:

      From Iraq Body Count

      Wednesday 25 November: 81 killed

      Mosul: 28 children killed in French air strike; 11 executed.
      Badush: 25 executed.
      Baghdad: 11 by IEDs, gunfire; 2 bodies.
      Madain: 4 by car bomb.

      The French have been bombing for 14 months, the airspace and political ground is already crowded.

      Joining in would be insanity and murder.

    97. liz g says:

      Fireproofjim @ 1.02 PM
      OT..sorry….
      while not the time or the place but just out of curiosity,
      What’s you’re take on the collapse of building 7 ?

      If you are going to answer please do it on ….off topic…..
      Not a conspiracy type either but have often wondered.
      Especially since the weird BBC reporting.

    98. dakk says:

      Bob Mack. 1.00

      ‘they want others to kill on their behalf’

      I know that type so well.

      Oh so comfortable,smug Britnat men and women sitting with their feet up reading the Daily Mail while their ‘boys’ bomb some poor country back into the Stone Age.

    99. TJenny says:

      Auld A – ‘It’s a bear in the poke?’ Aye, as opposed to Hameron’s poke in a pig. 😉

    100. HandandShrimp says:

      schrodingers cat

      I am surprised at the amount of space and airtime McTernan is getting. This is clearly a concerted effort. It would seem the survival and soul of the Labour party inthe short to medium term is wholly secondary.

      If there is a coup against Corbyn then the fall out will be messy.

      What is Kezia’s view on bombing Syria or is she too busy talking about last year’s referendum to have an opinion on current international events?

    101. Ken500 says:

      There is a debate in the Commons before the Debate. They will not have other one.

      Westminster had better not use Scottish taxes for this illegal War if Scottish MP’s vote no. That would be illegal. The majority in Scotland want no illegal wars. Especially when people in Scotland can’t heat, eat, sleep with worry, putting up the NHS bill. Worry makes people ill. Thousands of people in Scotland are losing their jobs because of Tory policies.

      RGU should have their funding cut. They have just given Heyward, the criminal ex-boss of BP a Honorary Degree in Technology. BP the worse company in economic history. Heyward should be in jail. What are RGU thinking off? Totally wasting public money honouring crooks. Workers died because of neglect and non complience with UK Health & Safety Law. Thousands of workers have lost their jobs because of UK gov policies and tax rates (75%). It is a disgrace. RGU should be sanctioned. An academic disgrace. What an insult to the workers who died and the catastrophe.

    102. ahundredthidiot says:

      Fireproofjim

      I am not going to speculate WTC 1 or 2, but 7 is thee smoking gun.

      Fire consumes fuel, then moves on, heat dissipates, it was a clear demolition job, engineers and architects lining up to agree that it must’ve been. Jesus, even BBC reported it before it even happened, and worse!! Were cut off mid report!!

      Once that is established, the whole house of cards comes, well, tumbling down.

      And the theory that the fire service ‘pulled’itis also utter pish because that takes weeks if not months to safety assess, plan, organise and effect.

      Try to be objective Jim, join the dots.

    103. Daisy Walker says:

      Dear Fireproofjim,

      I respect your caution re conspiracy theories. Someone posted a link to the Toronto 9/11 enquiry on this site several days ago. It is evidence lead. The qualifications and reputations of those giving evidence, scientists, academics, engineers, etc are beyond reproach.

      what cannot be denied is that a proper, professional criminal investigation was not carried out after 9/11. A proper inquest was not carried out. A proper public enquiry was not carried out.

      Have a look at the above film and see what you think.

      Kind regards

    104. Fireproofjim says:

      Hi Liz g
      Re OT I am sorry but have never used it and don’t know how to get there, (I know-what a dummy!)
      Briefly then, to reply to your question, building 7 was set on fire by jet fuel spraying from the original crash on the twin towers. It is only across the street.
      The fire spread throughout the building and the external steel skeleton failed. Same as the towers.
      There are poctures of the fire on you tube. No explosions

    105. HandandShrimp says:

      I see that Grant Shapps has resigned over the revelation that the Nasty Party is even viciously nasty to its own.

      I think the only surprise is that anyone is surprised.

    106. ahundredthidiot says:

      Magic trick

      You’re all looking at WTC 1&2, meanwhile a couple of billion dollars go missing and all the evidence for that missing money is, oh look, in that wee office at pentagon where another ‘plane’ hit.

      But surely there was a back up office with files??

      Oh look, it was in building 7

      Fuck me

      It’s always about the money, even the Romans knew that, follow the money.

      Building 7 was left out of the commission report for a reason.

    107. O/T

      C`mon Scotland in the Davis Cup final,I see they are wearing their countries colours.

    108. ahundredthidiot says:

      Apologies, I also have no idea how to get to O/t topics.

      Cognitive dissonance is hard to break, I just feel a little sorry for people who believe the US governments conspiracy theory on 9/11, because that is all the official account is, a government sponsored conspiracy theory.

      Plenty people died though…..op Himmler, op Gladio, op northwood, etc etc

      Therefore someone needs to pay.

    109. heedtracker says:

      Some toryboy fun in rancid The Graun.

      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/27/misstep-corbyn-terror-mao-labour-alienating-supporters

      You all hate JC dont you, because

      “Their chief concern is over Labour’s prospects of ever again winning the trust of the British people and forming a government. And they want a Labour government very badly.”

      Toryboy world UKOK style, wants a red toryboy Lab. But interesting omission from usual lying hypocrites of the Graun, and NO mention of their Scotland region, where the Red Tory party has been slowly and then spectacularly booted out of Scotland, probably for good.

      Its a odd omission, by a red toryboy rag that shat/shits very very hard on everything Scotland, excluding their endless desperate struggle to get red torygirl Kezia Nuke Em Dugdale and her crew of seat warmers, back in to Holyrood.

      A bloody good war will bring us all to UKOK heal, bettertogther.

    110. Bill Hume says:

      OK, I’ve reached breaking point. Will all the fucking conspiracy theorists please just fuck off and do something usefull for the cause of Scottish independence.

      I’m old. I’ve lived through and remember the Kennedy assasination….no second gunman. Moon landings……they went there. Diana died in a car crash….driver pished. No little green men ever found and the twin towers were brought down by flying two planes into them. I know, I was on duty at the Scottish air traffic control centre at the time and watched it as it happened.

      Like an earlier poster, I’m off to the dark room (literaly as I have some film to process). When I return I expect all of the conspiracy idiots to have tried a dose of reality and shut the fuck up.

    111. CameronB Brodie says:

      Why a bear? Perhaps a bit clumsy, as Russia (The Great Bear) has been at ‘war’ against various flavours of western-backed Jedidiah mercenaries (e.g. Daesh), since the 1970s. Ever since the US launched Operation Cyclone.

      The US poured cash into Afghanistan throughout the 1980s in an effort to defeat – or at least tie down – the Russians. Its principal ally was Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a ferociously anti-communist and militant Islamist leader. The US and Saudi Arabia both sent about $500m (pounds 300m) annually between 1986 and 1989 to fund the mujahedin, and other rich individuals from the Gulf – including Mr bin Laden – spent an extra $20m every month. The US funded the construction of the camps at Khost which it attacked two months ago in response to the embassy bombs.

      https://archive.is/WGvw

      Trident may be a grossly expensive and pointless retaliatory weapons but Depleted Uranium (DU), is truly offensive. The hundreds of tons of DU munitions used in Iraq and Afghanistan, has left radioactive wastelands of those sovereign nations.

      As a special advisor to the World Health Organization, the United Nations, and the Iraqi Ministry of Health, Dr. Ahmad Hardan has documented the effects of DU in Iraq between 1991 and 2002.

      “American forces admit to using over 300 tons of DU weapons in 1991. The actual figure is closer to 800. This has caused a health crisis that has affected almost a third of a million people. As if that was not enough, America went on and used 200 tons more in Bagdad alone during the recent invasion.

      I don’t know about other parts of Iraq, it will take me years to document that.

      In Basra, it took us two years to obtain conclusive proof of what DU does, but we now know what to look for and the results are terrifying.”

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/depleted-uranium-far-worse-than-9-11/2374

    112. mogabee says:

      Not sure I understand the bear reference, but the fact that there are already a number of actors bit-parting in Syria should ensure we are given the truth and not the lies that Cameron has stated.

      I’m distinctly unhappy that he keeps maintaining that bombing in Syria, where we have NOT been invited, is “self defense”.

      If that is his advice, then clearly he needs to sack some idiots!

      As for this knee-jerk reaction following Paris attacks, we really need to look at the history of France’s similar colonial past, and the attitude to past refugee integration.

      Nothing, as always with governments, is ever cut and dried.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_France

    113. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bill Hume

      I am guessing you saw all those things on the telly? You weren’t actually there for any of them? Fair?

      What about King Kong?

      That was on the telly…..did you see that big monkey?

      Jez I despair

      And you couldn’t possibly be wrong could you (rhetorical)

      Scottish ATC, I saw it, haha, that’s funny.

    114. Bob Mack says:

      @Bill Hume,

      Try to keep an open mind on the subject.I do not personally subscribe to the twin towers theory, but I do know that there have been several previous major conspiracy theories which history has proved to be true.

      I could give you at least 30 examples of this.

    115. X_Sticks says:

      Sorry O/T
      Just seen from twitter..looks like the Orkney 4 are needing help.

      http://tinyurl.com/zth3u6u

    116. Tîm Criced i Gymru says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      28 November, 2015 at 2:35 pm
      C`mon Scotland in the Davis Cup final,I see they are wearing their countries colours…

      Re the above post, did anyone see and hear the BBC NEWS 24 Sportsline Newspaper Review with Lizzie Greenwood-Hughes sometime after midnight?
      She showed a picture of Andy Murray from one of the papers (can’t remember which one) and said something like:

      “He looks as though he’s representing Scotland! Where’s the red in the red, white and blue?”

      UNBELEIVABLE, BLATANT… and DISGRACEFUL BIAS!

    117. Valerie says:

      For anyone wondering about the gas attacks blamed on Assad. No doubt they happened, but then Pentagon contractors trained insurgents in their handling.

      Hope I’m still around for the film..

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/syria-gas-attack-assad-wrongfully-blamed/5350350

    118. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ ahundredthidiot

      There are boards out there in netland if you want to discuss 9/11. In case it has escaped your notice, this is a political blog/discussion board to discuss (mainly) Scottish politics.

      I’m sure you can take a hint.

    119. liz g says:

      @ Bill Hume 2.47
      If you are saying you watched two planes destroy three buildings you may have actually reached breaking point some time ago.

    120. CameronB Brodie says:

      galamcennalath

      I’ll be honest, I don’t think the neo-Con ideology of the West is pleasant either. However, militant Jihadist Islam is an ideology of the masses, not the elite. As such, it is going to be much more difficult to ‘weed out’.

      Sorry but Islamism is intrinsically Totalitarian in nature and diametrically opposed to human-rights and free-will. I can’t think of any other philosophy further from “an ideology of the masses”. It is the invocation of the Prophet’s will over everything else.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_jihadism

      The Neo-cons have found a true ally in Bernard Lewis, who has provided them with gash intelligence on Islam since the 1950’s.

    121. schrodingers cat says:

      If there is a coup against Corbyn then the fall out will be messy.

      I was hoping corbyn would win for exactly this reason, I didn’t believe he could bring his party with him. too many disagreements about trident, austerity etc. I didn’t figure an escalation and the declaration of war in my calculation,

      but yes, the new leader will be pro trident, pro austerity and pro war. kezia will need to reverse the anti trident vote weeks before the holyrood election.

      the Russians were defeated by the mujahideen in afganistan, who were supplied with stinger missiles,by the west, I expect the wahhabist are being supplied as we speak

      if the war goes badly, and without a un resolution, (camerons defence of turkey and the fsa would indicate USA policy too, so I cant see a un resolution happening now)this war has the potential to turn out very badly for the UK. the kurds in turkey are now kicking off.

      yes/snp will pick up the growing anti war votes in Scotland, how will Cameron react when the first raf pilot is burned to death, how will the public react when isis execute 250 brittish soldiers?

      Cameron is on a one way ticket
      see david lammy telling portullo(and Cameron)at 15:15 the number of labour mps who support bombing, I doubt lammy will be very popular with corbyn

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06qsh9n/this-week-26112015

    122. cirsium says:

      Chris, it would have been better if you had used a viper. Normally the bear is used to symbolise Russia. In no way,shape or form have the Russians supported Da’esh. At present, the Russian Federation is the only state authorised by the UN to take action in Syria. What are France, the UK/US doing in Syria? They have not been invited by the Syrian Government to provide aid nor have they been authorised by the UN.

    123. ahundredthidiot says:

      Proudcybernat

      You’re right, I apologise, in my defence though it did start with how yesfolk think the BBC and WM government conspired during indyref1

      I’ll shut up

    124. maxxmacc says:

      The bear doesn’t make sense. A bald eagle would be more accurate, for it America and her allies (Saudis and Israelis)who created this latest bogeyman, ‘Isis’.

    125. gus1940 says:

      Was Wojtek whose statue was recently unveiled a Syrian bear?

    126. galamcennalath says:

      CameronB Brodie says:

      Islamism is intrinsically Totalitarian in nature and diametrically opposed to human-rights and free-will. I can’t think of any other philosophy further from “an ideology of the masses”.

      Are you saying militant Jihadist Islam doesn’t have a wide following? Surely not? IMO it has appeal to large numbers which is why it keeps reappearing among oppressed populations. Yes, often fuelled for someone’s political purpose, but never short of recruits.

      By contrast, neo-Con power and influence is successful by ensuring most Western populations are unaware of what is going on around them.

    127. Ken500 says:

      Andy Murray is wearing the sportswear he promotes just like any other player. The other team is wearing red their National colours. That would have been decided at the start of the competion, so not to confuse the spectators The awful jamboree is just an orchestrated embarrassment. A load of crass exhibitionists. Spot the idiots. Enough to put folk off tennis.

      Corbyn was elected by a majority of party members. They will not take it lightly if their candidates is disqualified. These rebels MP’s might find their privileges restricted and they are deselected. The Labour Party losing even more votes along with their Tory colleagues. Especially when things go wrong, and they will. This carry-on is just a diversion from the state of politics and the economy. Cameron and his colleagues run away. The £10Million jet. A public disgrace.

    128. Clootie says:

      People are going to die in order that Westminster politicians maintain the myth of Empire. The legacy of a Blairs Red Tories backing Cameron to the hilt.

      Please – not in my name.

    129. Ken500 says:

      THere are 2Billion Muslims in the world of all nationality and culture. The majority are totally kind lovng, generous and peaceful. Some of the other 5Billion in the world are not. Deprivation, poverty , inequality and injustice causes most of the problems. In the Middle East caused by the West for over 100 years, for Oil.

    130. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scot Finlayson says: 28 November, 2015 at 2:35 pm:

      “C`mon Scotland in the Davis Cup final,I see they are wearing their countries colours.”

      No! Wait! I did see the BBC allowed a Saltire in one shot.

      It was about an inch square and painted upon a young lassie’s cheek.

    131. Patrick Roden says:

      Sorta OY,

      I’ve always thought that the BBC support Labour in Scotland, because of the links between Labour and the BBC, but this McTernan nonsense has left me wondering if it’s really just the UK establishment the BBC support, and Scottish Labour are just an means to an end.

      Labour in Scotland, The establishment puppets in Scotland.

    132. CameronB Brodie says:

      galamcennalath
      Islamism was spawned by a revolutionary religion and forbids all other belief, with lethal sanction. Feck that for a game of soldiers.

      Strength of support has nothing to do with freedom of choice, IMO (e.g. indyref1). I bet the people THOUGHT THE BOLSHEVICKS WERE ON THEIR SIDE….

      Sharia versus Freedom – The Legacy of Islamic Totalitarianism
      http://www.andrewbostom.org/book3/

    133. Thepnr says:

      Apoligies in advance for the very long post, but going to war and bombing people is worth questioning.

      My question is what of the legality of bombing Syria, has anyone asked? Or do we just not care about such things anymore?

      In evidence to the inquiry, the Foreign Office’s chief legal adviser Michael Wood told of No 10’s reaction to a paper Wood wrote in October 2002 “on the consequences of the United Kingdom using force against Iraq without there being any international legal authority”:

      It did go to Number 10, who said, “Why has this been put in writing?”

      “BARONESS USHA PRASHAR: Thank you, Chairman. Sir Michael, thank you for your statement.

      What I want to cover is the legal position on the use of force before the Security Council 1441 and also what happened in terms of practical advice giving and the concerns you might have raised, but I think it would be very helpful if you can just tell us whether you were ever asked to advise on the provisions of international law relevant specifically to regime change in Iraq, and who asked you, and when was this, and what advice did you give?

      SIR MICHAEL WOOD: It was such an obvious point that kept on coming up and we just stuck in the sentence: “Regime change is not a legal basis for the use of force.”

      It wasn’t really controversial, so — I can’t remember if and when I personally put that sentence in, but it went constantly into documents and was not, as far as I can recall, challenged by anyone.

      BARONESS USHA PRASHAR: So you can’t remember when you were specifically asked that question and by whom?

      SIR MICHAEL WOOD: I can’t. I can remember when we were first — at least, I think I can remember, having refreshed my memory with the papers — when we first looked at the general question of the legal basis for the use of force prior to the adoption of 1441, if you would like me to set that out.

      BARONESS USHA PRASHAR: I would actually. That was my next point. I really wanted you to briefly give your view on the legal position of the use of force before.

      SIR MICHAEL WOOD: I think the legal position was pretty straightforward and pretty uncontroversial.

      The first possible basis would be self-defence, and it was clear to all the lawyers concerned that there was no — a factual basis for self-defence was not present, unless circumstances changed, because there was not — Iraq was not engaged in an armed attack, nor was there an imminent armed attack on us or its neighbours or anybody else. So self-defence was ruled out.

      The second possibility would have been the exceptional right to use force in the case of an overwhelming humanitarian catastrophe.

      This was the Kosovo argument, the argument we used in 1999, and also used for the No Fly Zones. Apart from the No Fly Zones, it was clear that there was no basis, using that rather controversial argument, for the use of force, in 2001/2002.

      So that left the third basis, possible basis, which was with authorisation by the Security Council. There, of course, we had had a series of resolutions culminating in 1205 of 1998, which was seen as the basis for Operation Desert Fox in December 1998, and so there was a slight question whether that finding of a breach, a serious breach, was still — still had some force.

      But I think all the lawyers who looked at it were pretty — were very clearly of the view that it was not, and that if we sought to rely on that resolution of some years before, we wouldn’t have had a leg to stand on.

      So the advice that was given was that there was no basis for the use of force in late 2001, when it first arose, I think, in 2002, without a further Security Council decision. There was one point that kept on coming up. Occasionally ministers, people, would say, “Well, Kosovo, we can do what we did in Kosovo.”

      http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/media/44205/20100126am-wood-final.pdf

    134. Ken500 says:

      When is Grant Shapps (nom de plume) going to jail? Along with the rest of them.They get away with murder.

    135. Robert Peffers says:

      @:Bill Hume says: 28 November, 2015 at 2:46 pm:

      ” … When I return I expect all of the conspiracy idiots to have tried a dose of reality and shut the fuck up.”

      They won’t though, Bill. Facts go whooshing over their heads. These high buildings are built upon a steel skeleton and, like a house of cards, take out a card part way down and the weight of the cards above coming down brings the whole lot down.

      Which is exactly what a controlled explosion is designed to do. It takes out the bottom so that the weight of what is above takes the lot down. Do these numpties think that a couple of aircraft full of aviation spirit will just knock a hole where they hit?

    136. Ken500 says:

      Will the Orkney Four just put an account bank details up. So people can pay into it. They will not incur any fees. If they win they might be awarded costs, if they have asked for them.

      The massive costs are the reason many people do not sue for Libel/slander. It can ruin them, especially if they lose. That is why the Press can print any rubbish about people. They have the means at their disposal. Any apology is lost in the small print. Bullying lying Editors.

      The Scottish Gov should have implemented the Leveson recommendations. At least people would have had some redress.

    137. Dr Jim says:

      The BBC have had complaints about Ginger hair and See You Jimmy Tartan Tammys apparently some sections of society are put off the Tennis and irritated by the spectacle

      Except for the Scots, The Welsh, and The Irish
      so I can’t think who’s unhappy, (Multiculturalism don’t you just love it)

      Still thinking

    138. CameronB Brodie says:

      CameronB Brodie
      P.S. Salafi Islam is red in tooth and claw, where as ‘Reformist Islam’ cohabits comfortably with other faiths and secular society.

      Guess which one I can tolerate?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Muslim_movements

    139. sinky says:

      Scotland 2 Belgium 1 in Davis Cup Final

    140. ahundredthidiot says:

      Robert Peffers@4:48

      Explain building 7 for me then?

      Another one with his head up his arse. That’s why we’re on the edge of a major global conflict people, suckers buying US lies since 2001. But the majority of people are unquestioning and quite frankly, stupid, which is why we are where we are.

      I’d sign your all up, give you a couple hours on the ranges, and send you off to fight this stupid fucking war.

    141. CameronB Brodie says:

      This may be dangerous. The first one please. 🙂

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/quarantine/

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/

    142. Bill Hume says:

      Back from the dark room. Yes I watched it all on telly (in the ScATCC)……………..AS DID YOU.
      Now please take your conspiracy theories elsewhere…..and add to the ‘smoke and mirrors’ of the more esoteric places on the web. We on this blog, are more interested in gaining freedom for Scotland.

    143. Lochside says:

      o/t Here’s a conspiracy: who’s sponsoring all the Brit Dicks and their ‘spontaneous’, but orchestrated looking ‘support’ at the tennis? And what is the Stirling University Connection with the ‘Barmy Army’?….Conservative Club perhaps?

      Funny how they keep getting plenty of coverage on the ‘BeeB’.

    144. Bob Mack says:

      O/t,

      Well done the Murray Bros.Great tennis.

    145. ahundredthidiot says:

      Bill Hume

      This thread has fuck all to do with Scottish Independence

      It’s about sitting on the edge of a very big battle and I am adding my tuppenceworth about how we bloody well got here

      Unquestioning believers of all things pish, that’s how.

    146. One_Scot says:

      Someone threw what looked like a tied up union jack at Andy Murray, presumably expecting him to unfurl it and drape it over his shoulders.

      God give me strength.

      SNP x 2

    147. frogesque says:

      May I suggest a quick google for ‘godlike productions’ if anyone is interested in conspiracy theories.

      Now some of the good folk on there really are bampots – even McTeirnan would come over as sane.

      Meanwhile Re: The Orkney Four funding. We have seen the results of CorpMedia attacking Natalie McGarry. Keep it all over and above board on IndiGoGo – I know they take a cut but threrein lay security. We don’t want monies going to odd bank accounts and a subsequent shitfest do we?

    148. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      28 November, 2015 at 8:48 am
      gerry parker 8:43 am

      I said ” I wonder what the grown ups think”

      Maybe sensibledave can make himself useful and give us the toryboy skinny on the toryboy thugs and Grant Snapps bullshit going on/being airbrushed away by BBC goons?

      I don’t know what they skinny means but if you’re still out there sensible, ask around the tory office you’re all love bombing various CiF’s from.

    149. JLT says:

      I saw David Cameron’s news interview earlier this afternoon where he was asked about Labour MP’s voting on Syria. His reply was that Britain need to be with ‘her allies’.

      But that made me frown because Cameron’s answer only seems to raise more questions.

      Simply put …who are our allies?

      First and foremost, and I believe we can all agree on this one – the French. Goes without saying.

      But the French are allied with the Russians. Putin has agreed to help the French, and I believe the French have quietly accepted this offer.

      But Russia is not Britain’s ally. In fact, Britain has an extremely frosty relationship with Russia.

      And the Russians are allies of Syria and Iran!

      So …are we now quietly allies with Russia …which also very quietly means Syria and Iran. Somehow, like yourselves, I think not!

      So …that takes us back to an original question before the downed Russian jet during the week and the Russians entering Syria; if we defeat ISIS …what then? What happens to Syria? With the Russians in there on mass, I think we can all agree that Assad is going nowhere and the current regime stays!

      So …what was the point of bombing Syria to remove Assad while turning countless people into refugees …if Assad is to remain in power? What was the point of it all? We weren’t fighting ISIS at that point so that’s no excuse. We were originally bombing strategic positions belonging to Assad to remove him from power. Is this no longer the case? If so …why did we bomb Syria in the first place?

      Now here’s an even more complex and angering thought. The Russians are in Syria …and we know ISIS are not only in Syria, but are also in Iraq (all over Iraq actually)…and Iraq shares a border with Iran.

      Now the US and UK are no longer deployed in Iraq. So what’s to stop the Russians and Iranians ‘invading’ Iraq to ‘defeat ISIS’ and remaining there, thus creating the ‘mythical’ bridgehead which would finally unite Russia, Syria and Iran …all via Iraq?

      Which then begs another question …did we fight in Iraq for 13 odd years, spending what? (I’m speculating half a trillion US Dollars and Sterling) with the deaths of US and UK service personnel along with half a million Iraqis …and for what??? Just to hand it over to Russia, Syria and Iran! Because personally, I can’t see the people of the UK being happy with that outcome. In fact, I believe many will rightly outraged. Cameron and Blair will be condemned if such an outcome should come to pass!

      But on a totally different note …here’s something to quietly debate on. This week, the EU offered Turkey a deal that may pave the way and ‘speed up’ Turkey’s application to joining the EU (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/27/eu-seeks-buy-turkish-help-migrants-controversial-summit)

      Quietly, this has not gone down well with a few of the EU nations (some don’t want an Islamic nation as part of the ‘Western Christian Economic zone’, while some EU nations have very long memories of Turkey once dominating the Balkans in the age of the Ottoman Empire.

      If the EU has a serious internal argument over Turkey’s entry, then have the Russians spotted a weakness in the EU’s stance on ‘will-they-won’t-they’ to let Turkey join the EU? If so, they may have played a blinder on this? Not only do they finally get into the ‘promised land’ of the Middle East, but at the same time, they have finally driven a wedge into the EU, thus possibly causing a deep rift amongst a number of Central and Eastern European nations from that of the influences of Western Europe, and amplified their own influences there instead.

      If so …Putin has played a blinder on this one. Who would have believed – if it should come to pass – that one downed fighter jet could eventually lead to some serious internal strife in the EU? For all Putin needs to do, is to gleefully continue intimidating the Turks with ‘threats’ of future consequences, and Turkey will surely run to the EU and US for protection. The continuation of the refugee crisis (helped by Russia if it pushes hard in Syria and Iraq) along with one downed jet could lead to a major fallout in the EU …and thus, extends Russia’s influence over it’s old Soviet territories.

      It makes you wonder…

    150. Bill Hume says:

      ahundredthidiot says:
      28 November, 2015 at 5:19 pm
      Quote”
      Bill Hume

      This thread has fuck all to do with Scottish Independence

      It’s about sitting on the edge of a very big battle and I am adding my tuppenceworth about how we bloody well got here

      Unquestioning believers of all things pish, that’s how.”

      More 99% idiot I would say. How do you get from We are all being suckered into war (and you are right there), to terorists didn’t really fly two aircraft into the twin towers and if they did, there were explosives planted there anyway…….get back to the reality of freeing Scotland.

      I should also point out I’m an engineer……I deal in reality………..not hearsay, and certainly not internet conspiracy theories.

    151. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ahundredthidiot –

      More power to ye.

      Anyone who wants to discuss 9/11 should come over to O/T.
      Not one of the people who starts frothing around the gub whenever anyone raises the slightest question has EVER come to O/T to defend the ‘official’ explanation.

      And that puts you in some esteemed company:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-Hj-Y6o6ec

      (FWIW, I’m not engaging in any discussion about it right here. I just wanted to express support for ahundredthidiot and lizg.)

    152. Valerie says:

      Who knew about this? You have to look its stunning, and no one knows about it even New Yorkers!

      http://gmmuk.com/tear-drop-a-gift-from-the-people-of-russia-to-the-usa-why-were-we-not-told-about-tear-drop/

    153. If we have to put boots on the ground it should be boots from Israel who I believe are the ones behind all the trouble in the Middle East but never seem to get mentioned I wonder why ?

    154. Fireproofjim says:

      Ahundredthidiot @5.08
      You really are living up to your name. Again!
      Go back to your PlayStation. There are a lot of fantasy games there.

    155. velofello says:

      Once upon a time there was two bears. One was called isis, the other was called Russia. Russia was a really bad bear the wise men said. The other bear was a good bear, well, it could be trained to be a good bear, said the wise men, but its behaviour, alas was not good.

      Bear Russia lived in a cold area and was shunned, although its honey was enjoyed by the people in “The City”. The other bear, Isis, the good bear lived in a warmer area with an abundance of fruit that yielded oil. The good bear was given treats, but it spurned the treats and didn’t want to give its fruit bearing oil to “The City”. So, the wise men believed that this very naughty, selfish “good” bear needed to be shown the error of its ways.

    156. schrodingers cat says:

      the indy campaign does not exist in a vacuum.

      the yes campaign continues against a backdrop of austerity, nuclear proliferation and now a war.

      Scottish independence has been thwarted and delayed be cause of the outbreak of war in the past

      it isn’t irrellevant

    157. arthur thomson says:

      I do not support the killing of children and innocent people. I therefore do not support the Britnats in their proposal to bomb in Syria.

      With or without a vote in favour, in Westminster, the Britnats will no doubt find a way to bomb Syria. Scottish opinion against bombing will be ignored as being irrelevant as always.

      Corbyn conspires with all other Britnats to ensure that Scotland is kept in this state of impotence. Consequently, opposition to the warmongering is fatally weakened.

      I am heartily sickened that innocents are going to be traumatised, maimed and killed.

    158. Angra Mainyu says:

      Well, well, well. Aren’t white Europeans really good at sticking their noses into other people’s business?

      I’ve read most of the comments on here and I regard more than 90% of them as being some hybrid cocktail recipe that mixes racism with imperialism. What’s remarkable is that those who indulge in this tonic don’t even seem to be aware that they are under the influence.

      The starting point for everyone, even non-Europeans, ought to be that what is happening in Syria and Iraq is none of our business. The UN charter and declaration of human rights aren’t wrong when they say that only in very clearcut and extreme cases can any sort of humanitarian intervention be conducted.

      Sovereignty is paramount in international law, except in very distinct cases. Syria hasn’t reached the point yet where humanitarian concerns would justify military intervention. This isn’t my opinion, it’s a matter of fact now since they have ruled on the matter.

      That all said, if there’s one group of people who really have no right to even comment it’s Europeans. And in particular, British Europeans. The same applies to the US which is basically an off-shoot of Europe/Britain.

      The reason we should keep out of it is because we basically caused all the problems, or had a strong hand in them. You don’t need to be a historian to know that our involvement there is really a history of predatorial subterfuge and destruction.

      Indeed, anyone with a memory span better than even an goldfish will remember that we killed somewhere between 3 and 5 million people in just two recent adventures (this is now official thanks to a recent study, get back to me if you want the grim details).

      There simply is no moral or legal justification for military intervention in Syria or anywhere else.

      You don’t like their Islamist values — good! What the fuck has it got to do with you what their values are?

      Let’s talk about your values, or should I say our values. The values that somehow allow us to destroy various countries leaving millions dead, shoving them right back into the stone age in terms of infrastructure and resources, on the basis of what? We want to help the poor people? “Isn’t it a shame for the poor people living under that evil dictator and those awful Islamist values…”

      And as I said, you don’t even know you are doing it. You don’t even seem to know how racist and imperialist it is to behave like this, like vicious animals. For the love of God snap out of it. Think of the families that are going to be left fatherless, sisterless, brotherless, all on the strength of this lunacy that you somehow dress up as intellectual liberalism.

      If I hear one more pseudo-intellectual justifying mass murder on the basis of some crap about Wahhabism that he read on the back of a Corn Flakes box… well, let’s just say it’s sickening. You should know better.

    159. heedtracker says:

      Angra Mainyu

      They look at war and the ballot box too. Bomber Bliar usually absolves himself and his merry band of maniacs by explaining that they did win the 2005 GE, so there. Crash Gordon’s never asked, nor is the ridiculous expense fiddler Flipper Darling, sorry Lord Darling.

      How will war help us win votes?
      At least we can spend even more on mass surveillance, GCHQ can hear a mouse fart in Wimbledon. is everyone on the right war makes teamGB proud page, in all UKOK newsrooms and so on.

      Middle England must be kept happy, house prices secure, no new taxes, we won WW2, we’re Brits and proud.

    160. Foonurt says:

      Ah wull, wan ah thae fuckers oan 5-Live news & weather early oan 27th(?) November, sid E***land agin Belgium. In ae wisnae ah foreinurr.

      Foreinurr tae Scoattlin, aye.

    161. heedtracker says:

      Latest war news in National.

      Schoolchildren killed in air strikes
      NOVEMBER 28TH, 2015 – 12:44 AM JAMES HAMILTON 1 COMMENT
      AIR strikes targeting Raqqa have killed at least eight people, including five children at a school taken over by Isis terrorists, according to opposition groups.

      Raqqa, in north-eastern Syria, is Daesh’s de-facto capital and has become the focus of air strikes in the wake of the Paris terror attack on November 13.

      A Raqqa-based activist group that reports on Daesh, known as Raqqa Is Being Slaughtered Silently, said most of yesterday’s casualties occurred when warplanes targeted the Heten School which, like others in Raqqa, has been taken over by Daesh.

      It was not clear who carried out the latest air strikes.

    162. Dr Jim says:

      Some say conspiracy theories are wrong, some say they’re right, I don’t know

      What have you heard?… and who from?

    163. Bob Mack says:

      @Heedtracker,

      That is precisely the problem.Daesh will seek refuge amongst the populace as cover from air attack. We will kill the innocent with the guilty.
      The American bombing of the hospital was no accident last week. The innocent got caught up again by those sheltering inside,expecting Western morality to omit such a target.
      Some hope!!!

    164. schrodingers cat says:

      justifying mass murder on the basis of some crap about Wahhabism that he read on the back of a Corn Flakes box…

      having serve in the gulf, and frequently worked in the ME, my knowledge doesn’t come from cornflakes packets.

      I do not condone or support bombing anyone

      I merely point out the hypocracy of the west for supplying arms and money to wahhabist rebel groups(fsa,alnusra,alqaeda,jayshalislam) then complaining about the threat isis pose

      we in Scotland will not decide if Syria is bombed in our name, all the snp mps will oppose Cameron, but a majority of English mps want war. nothing I can do will stop them.

      as for conspiracy theories…they are irrelevant, we will not solve who killed jfk on this thread. we don’t need to reference such 9/11 theories, true or not, since we have perfectly well documented evidence in the unionists own media which shows that the west has been funding Wahhabi jihadists. no conspiracy required. fact

    165. schrodingers cat says:

      The starting point for everyone, even non-Europeans, ought to be that what is happening in Syria and Iraq is none of our business

      true. but it is our fault

    166. schrodingers cat says:

      You don’t like their Islamist values — good! What the fuck has it got to do with you what their values are?

      quite a lot, since our tax dollars have been funding, arming and supporting one particularly nasty strain of islam. wahhabism

    167. carjamtic says:

      Brilliant again Chris…..not the Andrex puppy….so real…nailed it 😉

    168. Ruby says:

      Are there any Buddhist MPs?

      What about Willie Rennie is he a Buddhist?

    169. schrodingers cat says:

      @Angra Mainyu

      unless you haven’t noticed, I don’t see anyone on this thread who supports bombing Syria(very few )????

      who are you ranting at?

    170. CameonB Brodie says:

      Angra Mainyu
      Did you read any of Andrew Bostom’s material that I posted? Steering clear of race, are you using liberal western values to advocate Theocracy? Are you a Fabian? 😉

      As far as the on-going proxy assault on Syria, it will only get worse.

      P.S. Andrew Bostom is highly praised by Islamic scholars.

    171. asklair says:

      I am not the first to ask this and will not be the last, if a country bombed your home and killed your people, what would you do?

    172. Angra Mainyu says:

      “true. but it is our fault”

      Yes, as everyone knows and as I made clear in my post.

      It’s interesting to me that words like Wahhabism have entered mainstream discourse and on a daily basis you hear people discussing stuff like that as if they have specialist familiarity with Islamic culture. The truth is they do, I suppose, on a certain level. The psyops and marketing guys have done a good job.

      During the Cold War the average guy in street had a similar understanding of the Soviet Union. The focus, needless to say, was on all the bad stuff. Then as now, the general understanding of the official enemy was very narrow but broad enough to convince people that they had to cough up and pay whatever price in blood the Masters of the Universe deemed necessary.

      Not a lot has changed. Back in the 60s and 70s we purportedly bombed to stop communism; the North-South conflict that had raged since the early 16th century was cleverly disguised as an East-West conflict. Now it’s the Clash of Civilisations, freedom versus fundamentalist totalitarianism. Same victims, same perpetrators, same crimes, and the same goals.

      500 years of human misery and suffering later, here we are. Bible in one hand, sword in the other. Those savages and their Wahhabism, let’s teach them a thing or two. What’s our oil doing in their hole anyway? Bombs away.

    173. X_Sticks says:

      Perhaps if we really want to get rid of da’esh we should be bombing Riyadh.

      Ah, but then we want to build our new naval base in Bahrain, don’t we?

      And we don’t want our arms trade to suffer, do we?

      And what about all the property in London the House of Saudi owns. And their investments…

      It seems one can buy ones right to barbarism, suppression and terrorism if one has enough money. The Bin Ladens even got a special flight home from America the day after 9/11.

    174. All of the terrorists killed in Paris recently were born in either France or Belgium.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11996120/Paris-attack-what-we-know-about-the-suspects.html

      And they didn’t all travel to Syria either. One went to Morocco & the other to Yemen.

      But bombing Paris or Brussels is out of the question. Bombing Syrian cities however is not. But since the terrorists didn’t come from there, why the argument from Cameron to bomb at all?

      Simple. It has nothing to do with thwarting terrorists but everything to do with freezing out Russia & Iran from having any influence or indeed control over Assads’ government.

      That’s why Russia’s intervention was frowned upon by the British. The Middle East remains a political football with which post Imperial & Communist empires continue to play games with because the region is still flush with oil.

      It’s always been about the oil. Follow the money.

    175. heedtracker says:

      I am not the first to ask this and will not be the last, if a country bombed your home and killed your people, what would you do?

      Millions of people are refugees walking out of the war zones. BBC r4 toryboy news teatime mixed up their war is good propaganda tonight with Macedonia now building border fences to stop migrants, and then same crew explained Greece only taking refugees now.

      What the difference between a UKOK war migrant and a UKOK war refugee, only a toryboy propagandist can say but wont.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/28/us-europe-migrants-macedonia-idUSKBN0TH04M20151128

      What’s a “migrant filter”

    176. Another Union Dividend says:

      After the killing of the Kurdish human rights lawyer in Turkey to-day no one should be under any illusion how complex the Middle East situation is.

      No one should comment on Syria until they have read Craig Murray’s blogs not least

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/11/obamas-war-on-truth/

    177. Ruby says:

      asklair says:
      28 November, 2015 at 7:56 pm
      I am not the first to ask this and will not be the last, if a country bombed your home and killed your people, what would you do?

      Ruby replies

      See US’s reaction to 9/11 UK’s reaction to London bombings & France’s reaction to Paris killings.

      That is all right and proper because unlike people in the middle east we in the words of Bob Dylan ‘Have God on our Side’

    178. schrodingers cat says:

      discussing stuff like that as if they have specialist familiarity with Islamic culture. The truth is they do, I suppose, on a certain level. The psyops and marketing guys have done a good job.

      psyops and marketing guys ??? . the number of wars the uk has been involved in the gulf, the number of scots in the oil industry who have and still work in the ME….is it so difficult to believe that some, if not many on this thread have direct knowledge of islam, gained from direct experience, and not gleaned from “psyops and marketing guys”

    179. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Polaris was keys, I remember the debates at the time, and Trident is keys as well.

      Ejection from the boat is by compressed air, as I’m sure you know yourself, that’s a function of the boat not the missile, and the boat is under control of the captain and crew, and the design and build under control of e.g. Barrow. The main engine of three stages doesn’t fire until the missile breaches the sea surface.

      There’s obviously a technical dependence on the US, but not an operational one – though it’s unlikely politiclly the PM would use them except without consulation at the time, or previous consulations with the US President.

      This is a myth that damages the credibility of Indy supporters, or at least, those who oppose renewal (as in Successor build). I’m surprised you buy into it.

    180. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      asklair at 7.56

      Exactly.

      I have a feeling that Cameron and his sychophants are in the process of loosing this argument.
      This is mainly because it is incoherent and idiotic as arguments go.

      Syria did not attack us and did not attack Paris therefore we should bomb Syria? Come again.

      If we do not bomb Syria somebody will come and attack us? Come again.

      If Sweden or New Zealand don’t bomb Syria somebody will come and attack Sweden and New Zealand makes as much sense.

      If they lose the argument (and they are losing it with all well informed people)and bomb Syria anyway most of the destruction will be on the Labour Party, the Labour Party in Scotland in particular, the Westminster Parliament and the union.

      Is this all the reason we need for second referendum. Let’s do it in time with the Catalans

    181. Dr Jim says:

      Wee bit of praise for the folk welcoming the Refugees in Glasgow today good on them

      And maybe for the folk worrying about the odd bad guy here or there amongst them, do you bar all from help in order to avoid trouble, some say yes some say no

      Me, I’d happily bar a hell of a lot more of our own people on a Saturday after they’ve had their dose of hate fest just watching a game of Football which some of them seem to see as some kind of war where their particular brand of God is better than somebody else’s

      And it’s funny they don’t realise how lucky they are that most of them have never been shot or bombed or beheaded or any of the other shit these Nasty Furriners have had inflicted on them,
      In some countries denigrating somebody’s beliefs gets you killed, go there and shout at somebody tough guys

      Scotland, crap country eh? Sheesh!!!

    182. CameronB Brodie says:

      Angra Mainyu
      Neither Wahhabi or Salafi Islam, in general, represents the totality of Islam.

      I would like to say fuck off and be ‘right-on’ elsewhere but manners. Eh?

    183. Dorothy Devine says:

      Valerie , I knew about it some time ago and like you, asked the question why it got no publicity.

      The only answer is that it does not serve the purposes of Washington/Westminster or the corporate media who support them.

    184. schrodingers cat says:

      @Angra Mainyu

      has craig murray gleaned his knowledge of islam from “psyops and marketing guys”

    185. Dr Jim says:

      Scientists can prove how the world began, they can prove fantastic stuff from Teeny Weeny bits of molecules from outer space
      Why don’t they just prove and admit the whole God stuff was a big Con

      Would that ruin everybody’s fun

    186. heedtracker says:

      Scottish Independence Day, 24 March 2016.

      In an other timeline, instead, the UKOK war drums beat louder and one of Scottish history’s greatest liars gets stuck in to the big issues of their Scotland region

      Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall 10 hrs10 hours ago
      Was alarm raised months before General Election? 7 SNP candidates on the board. “We knew nothing” isn’t sustainable.

      Proud Scotbuts are more than just a bit weird.

    187. Ruby says:

      arthur thomson says:
      28 November, 2015 at 5:58 pm
      I do not support the killing of children and innocent people. I therefore do not support the Britnats in their proposal to bomb in Syria.

      Ruby replies

      I do not support killing FULL STOP! It seems strange to me that a country that does not support capital punishment is so ready to kill.

    188. Iain says:

      Independence, is the sane sensible choice for Scotland. War on the Syrian people is an illegal act. Unless the U.N.authorizes the war under a chapter 7 charter. If we bomb our politicians are as guilty as the Nazis at Nuremburg, they were found guilty of waging an illegal war and under the penalty of the time they were hanged.

    189. Anagach says:


      Dr Jim says:
      Scientists can prove how the world began

      Scientists do not prove anything. They work from the simplest theory that fits all the observations until it is disproved then they find the next simplest theory that fits the observations… and so on.

    190. Angra Mainyu says:

      Schrodinger, the only reason guys like you served in the military and were “involved” over there, the only reason so many of your fellow Scots work over there, and, as I said, the only reason words like Wahabbism are in mainstream culture, is because the psyops and marketing guys are so good at selling our involvement in the Middle East as a sequence of noble crusades. If it wasn’t for oil you’d probably struggle like rest of us to find the Middle East on a map.

      We can go onto the nitty gritty of arms sales, the effects of arms sales, “aid”, supporting coups, sanctions, and the various mechanisms and means of colonial and post-colonial plunder, if you like. I don’t see it as necessary since we all know the script.

      You mention Craig Murray in a peculiar way. He worked for the foreign office and I’d be willing to bet that he more or less agrees with everything I have said, none of which is even controversial or disputable. He should agree, he witnessed it all first hand.

      I’m fairly disappointed in this forum today. I’ve made that clear. It’s surprising that people who understand the minutiae of detail when it comes to the way Scotland and the independence movement are marginalised in the media and politics, aren’t able it seems to apply the same filters and understanding to the Middle East.

      Anyone on here who argues in favour of bombing Syria is, in my opinion, wrong and a hypocrite. With the possible exception of that Dave character you all seem to delight in giving attention, a guy who strikes me as thick beyond reprieve.

    191. David McDowell says:

      I really can’t stand all these coincidence theorists. They make the conspiracy theorists look downright sane.

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting to (skim) read the different views, catching up after catching up on sleep for a week, busy non-stop manufacturing work.

      A key thing about Syria, in fact THE key thing about Syria is this: “Russian naval base in Tartus”. Russia has the Black Sea Fleet based at its Crimea base, and Syria is its toehold in the Med, even for its Murmansk based fleet.

      If the “West” accepted this and didn’t try to undermine it, as it does with talk of replacing Assad’s regime with democracy, Russia would effectively be a full ally in bringing Syria back to stability. For this to happen, the attacks in Syria would be led and controlled by Russia, with help from the West only on request. How refreshing. Stability could be restored, refugee flows would halt, people could even return home.

      I don’t agree with the bear in the cartoon being “ISIS”, it’s the same old cuddly bear we’ve been used to for over 70 years, the Russian one. It may have hibernated for a bit when the Wall went down and as all the useful idiots said “the Cold War is over”, but it’s back (never went away), it’s active, well-fed, looking to make sure of its next meal.

      The nuclear deterrent isn’t there for ISIS, it’s there for Russia. A for instance of that is the shooting down of the Russian jet by the Young Turk. Russia has been content to “impose sanctions” on Turkey, despite NATO seeming to back Turkey. I suspect that, but for the deterrent, there might have been some relatiatory action from Russia, leading to some escalation, leading to more. Some said the Third World War was near, well, sad or glad to say, the nukes made that very unlikely.

      Alll just my (not so humble) opinion, of course.

    193. Sinky says:

      Guess what Ian Murray won’t commit himself over Syria according to Hootsman report

      https://archive.is/Sp3QG

      So called shadow Secretary of State for Scotland doesn’t know what majority of Scots want.

    194. heedtracker says:

      Far right toryboys move in for the kill, with IS and terror.

      Or, how to use terrorism, bloodshed, war, to attack democracy in your Scotland region, lesson of the day-

      Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 11 hrs11 hours ago
      / I understand SNP concerns about quagmire of civil war in Syria. What I don’t understand is their position on the separate issue of Isis.

      Next up, Scotland must have Great British nuke weapons dumped in Faslane, think of all those great jobs UKOK weapons of mass destruction, what you’ll lose.

    195. HandandShrimp says:

      Anyone on here who argues in favour of bombing Syria is, in my opinion, wrong and a hypocrite.

      Angra Mainyu

      Someone may have but surely most of the posts here are saying that Cameron has not made a good case for war so I am not sure which windmill you are tilting at.

      As for religious fundamentalism, whatever stripe it is it is invariably unpleasant and frequently cruel.

    196. Az says:

      Oh god I hate indulging conspiracies but THEY FELL STRAIGHT DOWN!!!
      Hardly the course of least resistance…

    197. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 9.33

      The nukes do nothing of the sort. Neither of our two World Wars happened by design. They escalated into world wars.
      All the nukes mean is that if one side in an escalating conflict find themselves loosing badly the temptation to press the button increases rapidly.

    198. Bob Mack says:

      The history of my own country will not let me rubbish conspiracy theorists,or coincidence theorists.

      Did not Mrs Thatcher hide Billions worth of oil from the Scottish public.?
      Did not England transfer 6000 sq miles of our waters to England ?
      Did not the supposedly impartial Civil Service chief admit his department secretly working to trying to preserve the Union ?

      What is the Scotland Bill but a conspiracy to undermine our country?
      These are only a few things in Scotland.Many more I am certain happen in other countries.

    199. yesindyref2 says:

      To tackle the other half, and surprisingly contradict the deterrent angle, now is the best time ever for the UK Parliament to properly debate the issue of nuclear deterrence, rather than stick to the past and party lines.

      Basically in the 90s, the UK and the West realised that its forces were designed for a Cold War (or hot one) scenario, and weren’t designed for the modern day. So they set about chaning them radically. But after the West’s efforts in Ukraine, aided abd abetted by NATO and the EU in my not humble opinion, they realise that the Cold War is still around.

      What we’ve seen is Defence Reviews aimed at transforming the UK forces for modern times. They’ve been a bit iffy but for all its many faults, the 2010 one did set the seeds for progress, and the 2015 one advances on that in a more sensible fashion, considering past mistakes. But there is the basis for a solid UK defence – conventional one – witin NATO. Bearing in mind Article 5 – one for all, all for one. Any attack on the UK wouldn’t just rely on UK forces, multiply that by a factor of 10 for a mass attack.

      Back in the early Cold War days, the USSR outnumbered the West forces by 2 or 3 to one, there was a very real danger the USSR could and would take over most of Western Europe. Basically they were as afraid of “us” as we were of them. I was a strong supporter of nukes in those days, I think it prevented a war which could have led directly and indirectly through starvation disase and economic bankruptcy to hundreds of million of lives. Our lives. As it is both sides tested their equipment and fought a proxy war in the Middle East, a legacy we’re living with to this day and in the future.

      But there is a real possibility that the West as as whole can achive equality or superiority with Russia in terms of conventional forces, which is in itself a deterrent. Mutual Assured Destruction, not though nukes, but through conventional arms and explosives. Meanwhile, the UK still has Trident on the Vanguards, until 2028, by which time many, perhaps all, of the aims of SDSR 2015 will have been achieved.

      This is therefore the best of all possible times to have that debate, a full on and sensible informed debate: nukes or not nukes?

    200. Bob Mack says:

      Ps forgot to add. Surely Libya and Iraq were not part of a conspiracy? Wmd’s and all that must have been there then.

    201. Both Blair and Bush went into Iraq under the Christian flag the listen to their statements on its eve the re-emergence of the crusades. Who the bloody hell are the real fundamentalists?

    202. CameronB Brodie says:

      Angra Mainyu

      …some crap about Wahhabism that he read on the back of a Corn Flakes box…

      Close but I think the likes of Tresi Nonno, MA in sociocultural anthropology, might have a better idea about what makes thing tick. No? I am not a “Clash of Civilization” advocate, as Jihadi Islam does not represent Islam as a whole. It only represents a very conservative interpretation supporting a revocation of the middle ages.

      All cultures can be subdivided into two paradigms: cosmocentric cultures (main object of discourse is nature/cosmos) and sociocentric cultures (main object of discourse is society/ morality). Interaction between cultures of the same paradigm is easier than between cultures belonging to different. When something is borrowed without due understanding it usually leads to cargo cults. Europe is a cosmocentric world; Abrahamic traditions are sociocentric. That’s why Europe isn’t Judeo-Christian civilization and Christianity in Europe is nothing but just a cargo cult. Islam is also an item of Abrahamic paradigm and that’s why it’s deeply alien to Europe. Those Muslims who come to dwell in Europe should accept values of secular Europe and should be assimilated. Multiculturalists and nationalists are derivates of the same root: they both like their utopias more than real life. Politics and international relations should be based on cultural anthropology as well as medicine is based on microbilology/chemistry.

      Key words: culturalism; multiculturalism; nationalism; cosmocentric paradigm; sociocentric paradigm; cargo cults; Abrahamic traditions; Europe; LGBT

      https://culturalanthropologyandethnosemiotics.wordpress.com/

      https://culturalanthropologyandethnosemiotics.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/thoughts-on-multiculturalism-nationalism-and-culturalism2.pdf

    203. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill: “All the nukes mean is that if one side in an escalating conflict find themselves loosing badly the temptation to press the button increases rapidly.”

      Exactly, you’ve put it very succinctly and accurately.

      Which is why neither side will even start one.

    204. heedtracker says:

      The history of my own country will not let me rubbish conspiracy theorists,or coincidence theorists.

      What’s wrong with trying to work how 9/11 happened? Its perfectly reasonable to suggest that Bin Laden had got explosives in to the towers. They’d managed to get a truck load into the towers underground car park 93.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_World_Trade_Center_bombing

      Severin Carrell ?@severincarrell Nov 25
      BREAKING: @OBR_UK predicts Scottish tax receipts to fall by £485m over next six years: huge fall in @JohnSwinney buildings sale taxes #CSR15

    205. Bob Mack says:

      @yesindyref2,

      We hope.

    206. heedtracker says:

      Blue tory hacks monster Scottish democracy like that Times dude, with UK war and terror

      Red tory hacks monster Scottish democracy with low oil prices, feel the thrill running through UKOK tub thumpers,

      Severin Carrell ?@severincarrell Nov 25
      BREAKING: @OBR_UK predicts Scottish tax receipts to fall by £485m over next six years: huge fall in @JohnSwinney buildings sale taxes #CSR15

      War, poverty, job losses, EVEL, Scotland Bill binned, and your oil’s fcuked too.

      haha

    207. Another Union Dividend says:

      Apologies for very O/T

      But in Hootsman online Unionists now complaining about cost of Ryder Cup hospitality.

      Yes lets user the biggest Scottish tourist opportunity to wine and dine influential visitors on Buckfast and deep fried Mars Bars.

    208. heedtracker says:

      Lucky severin’s very exited about impending Scottish economic collapse.

      Severin Carrell ?@severincarrell Nov 25
      BREAKING: @OBR_UK forecasts #LBTT receipts for @scotgov will collapse by £926m by 2021 – 20% fall on July forecast = @JohnSwinney problem
      6 retweets 1 like
      Reply Retweet 6
      Like 1

      Severin Carrell ?@severincarrell Nov 25
      .@OBR_UK forecasts Scottish income tax will barely rise by 2021 vs last forecast, just 0.7% rise to £32.246bn = @JohnSwinney problem #CSR15

      Severin Carrell ?@severincarrell Nov 25
      #CSR15 live: @OBR_UK forecasts grim news for @JohnSwinney, predicts Scottish taxes lower by £485m by 2021 @guardian http://gu.com/p/4eg7p/stw#block-5655c332e4b06bcbe5fbf6a8
      1 retweet 1 like
      Reply Retweet 1
      Like 1

    209. Bob Mack says:

      Figures from OBR are as much use as a chocolate fireguard, unless of course they reinforce a view you would like to be made public and believed.

    210. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bob Mack
      I’m firmly on the fence regarding the nuclear deterrent, comfortably ensconced with kettle and tea bags, milk and sugar.

      But I’m not on the fence regarding having a sensible Parliamentary debate about it, in fact I’m angry that we won’t get one. What we see is the Tories looking to cause trouble in the Labour ranks, and those in Labour hoping to get rid of Corbyn.

      In other words the whole knee-jerking lot of them put their pathetic party poltiics above the security of the UK, and the spending or waste of £167 billion and rising over 45 years, at the expense also of 6%, 8% and rising of the defence budget which could perhaps be better spent, and with far more economic benefit to the UK as a whole.

      These clowns wouldn’t know a debate if it hit them in the arse.

    211. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      C’mon peeps.

      The discussion on the ins and outs of 9/11 has moved to ‘off-topic’.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic

    212. sinky says:

      Bbc paper review giving Sunday Post’s David Miller free range to say Scots feel more threatened from ISis if we were independent. You couldn’t make it up

    213. Capella says:

      @ yesindyref2 9.33
      Turkey doesn’t have nukes (we’re told). So how do nukes make WW3 less likely in the context of the shooting down of a Russian plane? And what makes you think the incident is all over?

      The Russian bear plays chess. Erdogan has taken a pawn. Now it’s Putin’s move.

    214. heedtracker says:

      You couldn’t make it up

      You could, if you’re an English mega rich BetterTogether donor.

      http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/nov/28/conversation-lauren-laverne-jk-rowling-interview

      JK dreary old hoohaa about what a great literary genius she is but doesnt mention the million quid she paid to stop Scotland running Scotland or does she…

      Sneaky shit link in the above rancid The Graun thing to this rancid The Graun thing

      LL But Twitter for you is obviously very comfortable.

      JR You’re swimming in your own medium. Twitter for me has been an unmixed blessing, trolls included.

      http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/may/05/jk-rowling-responds-to-twitter-attacks

      The worship of great wealth, the monstering of democracy, the sneering condescension, the creepy warmongering, how frightfully The Guardian.

    215. What would Jesus and Muhammad do or say if they new the atrocities that were/are carried out in their name?

      Who is really pulling Christian,Muslim,Jewish strings?

      as someone else posted `always follow the money/power` and you will find the origin of all conflict.

    216. caz-m says:

      Sinky 10.42pm

      This guy David Miller from the Sunday Post slaughters Scotland at every opportunity. That is why he is a regular down at BBC London.

      I hope the Sunday Post is up their with the Daily Record on everyone’s banned list.

    217. Gary45% says:

      Valerie@5.44pm
      Thanks for that.
      The teardrop is stunning.

    218. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 AT 10.00

      “Which is why neither side will even start one”

      I think you rather missed the point. Wars generally don’t start by intention but once they are started it’s anybody’s guess where and how they will end.

      Let’s say US is getting tanked in a war with China and Donald Trump is the US president………

    219. yesindyref2 says:

      @Capella
      Yes it’s chess. If I were Putin I’d be looking at the geographical and political position of Turkey, on the south side of the Black Sea, with Istanbul guarding my entrance to the Aegan and the Med.

      I think what I’d do is take action against Turkey, but not against NATO, hoping to drive a wedge between Nato and its 28th member. Not a short term venture, but then later comes the reconciliation, the offers of economic aid, lower energy prices, guaranteed trade deals, that sort of stuff. Then hope that NATO becomes 28-1 = 27, and my southern approaches are within my sphere of influence.

    220. Robert Peffers says:

      @Az says: 28 November, 2015 at 9:45 pm:

      “Oh god I hate indulging conspiracies but THEY FELL STRAIGHT DOWN!!! Hardly the course of least resistance…”

      For the love of Pete. When the demolition contractors set charges to demolish tall structures that is exactly what they do. explode the bottom level equally all round.

      They set charges evenly round the structure at the lowest level. This is to use the whole solid weight above it to collapse it in upon itself.

      If, however, there is either an unequal strong part of the structure, or a charge either doesn’t go off, or doesn’t go off exactly in time with the other charges, the structure doesn’t collapse in on itself but falls sideways.

      It is the reason they have an exclusion zone more than equal to the height of the structure. Normally the thing comes nowhere near the outer exclusion zone.

      Just last week there was a news item om TV, (I don’t know which channel as I saw it on my friend’s TV while I waited for him to get ready to go out).

      It showed a large chimney that was supposed to come straight down but instead fell sideways on top of a mechanical digger thingy. The Driver got out without a scratch.

      The fault was explained as being because one or more of the charges set at the base of the lum had not gone off in sync so there was a greater resistance at that point causing the lum to fall sideways.

      If you need further proof then you could see the lum did not fall like a solid pole but start to fall sideways and then break in the middle as gravity began to pull the topmost section straight down.

      For heaven’s sake it’s basic mechanics.

    221. Graham MacLure says:

      A smidgeon relaxed but never mind, but I thought I’d just an ‘at but by the way, why do we spend our time on this post slaggin yesterday’s failures like the UK and Labour and not discussing what we want when independence comes as it inevitably will?
      I can just see it , ‘What sort of constitution do you want? Unionists baaaad!
      Do you want a monarchy or a republic? Unioists baaad.
      And so forth till Gabriel’s horn sounds.
      Let’s discuss the our objectives for a change. No?

      Ah’m bein pit tae ma bed.

    222. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      There’s any number of wars that could and probably would have started since 1945, between Russia / USSR and the West. Intentionally or unintentionally.

      They didn’t.

      The Americans got their German scientists, the Russians got theirs, the French and British got warehouses full of German research, reports, designs and materials. That kept them busy and out of mischief for a while. Then of course there was Sputnik, but that’s another story.

    223. Wuffing Dug says:

      @Caz-m @ 10.59pm

      OMG The sunday post.

      A right creepy bastirt of a unionist paper.
      Is it still going?, who the hell buys it?

      Haven’t seen one for ages thank god, the sight of it gives me the fear.

      Another one we could put out of business perhaps?
      How is it still going – is it being secretly financed by sympathetic yoons?

      Another propaganda sheet.

    224. Angra Mainyu says:

      CameronB, I have no idea who Treso Nonno is but this is possibly the flimsiest explanation of the so called fault lines between the West and Islam that I have ever heard;

      “All cultures can be subdivided into two paradigms: cosmocentric cultures (main object of discourse is nature/cosmos) and sociocentric cultures (main object of discourse is society/ morality). ”

      Actually, I mean it, I’m astounded that this sort of childish and clumsy rhetoric is even allowed in academic circles. Is this the crap they are teaching our kids? People write and read books about this junk? Astonishing. I thought Fukuyama was insultingly ridiculous.

      Do you buy that nonsense? I’m flabbergasted that you might, you seem pretty smart to me. I’ve read your posts and I had you down as someone who could distinguish between reality and intellectual masturbation.

      As for your idea that some of us look at the stars or whatever and others look at society, hard to take seriously as it is, it might interest you to know that around 50% of humanity is basically malnourished. Every indicator you care to look at in terms of health and wellbeing suggests that the majority of mankind is looking at their kids and wondering where the next meal will come from. The stars and society, I’d imagine, are way down the priority list.

      I feel like I’m from a different planet sometimes…

    225. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers
      you seem to have disproved your own point.
      The planes crashed into one side of the buildings causing asymmetric damage so asymmetric collapse.
      Second, the planes crashed into the top of the buildings not the bottom so not the entire weight of the building.
      Third, WTC 7 had no plane crash into it but fell vertcally into it’s own footprint in 7 seconds i.e. freefall.
      Curious?

    226. Lesley-Anne says:

      Just come across this wee video.

      Interesting few shots from around 3 minute 9 seconds on, some real nasty looking cybernats in that lot! 😀

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C88EthgFr8&sns=tw

    227. Angra Mainyu says:

      handandshrimp, you say most people on here are against the bombing and ask what windmill I’m tilting at.

      Your yourself are a good example. I can’t imagine how you might type stuff without reading it but if you scroll up you will see that you were quite supportive and sympathetic towards Britain bombing to protect the Kurds in Northern Iraq.

      If you invite me, I will take the time to scroll up, copy, and paste, and then we can validate what I’m accusing you of here (right now I’m not sure you’re worth it).

      As I said, jingoism, dogma, and indoctrinated people everywhere who aren’t even aware of their own vicious values and prejudices. It’s extremely sinister.

      All that stuff we accuse ISIS and fundamentalist Islam of seems to apply to many here too. Our Quran is a dark mix of The Wealth of Nations and Leviathan. Our Mohammed is Machiavelli. Let’s bludgeon their skulls with pure reason and convince ourselves it’s in the name of liberal democracy.

      Incidentally, the plight of the Kurds is something I’ve taken a keen interest in over the last 30 years. They’re a people I have a vested interest in and I have nothing but goodwill towards them. I’m not suggesting that we sit back and watch ISIS slaughter them but if that did it happen it would be the first time it was done by a an army that wasn’t on our friends list.

    228. CameronB Brodie says:

      Angra Mainyu
      I think we fight the same fight but then you go an spoil it with your unsupported arrogance. Go on then, tell us what it’s all about.

      Btw, do you understand semiotics? I am not suggesting that this is a biological division in humanity but we are the product of our environment (in the broadest possible sense).

      Let’s leave it there.

    229. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. I don’t know who Tresi Nonno is either, other than she one of the few people I know who specialise in ethno-anthrapology, with a side helping of semiotic signification.

    230. Fireproofjim says:

      Capella @11.49
      When a steel structure is exposed to a large fire, as in the case of the twin towers the structural steel will quickly lose its strength.
      The fire protection on the steel in the towers was a cement based product which would have been severely damaged by the aircraft impact exposing bare steel columns to the fire.
      From my experience as a fire protection engineer in the oil industry, (hence my WOS name) I have often stood in windy fields and watched test steel columns bend like bananas under their own weight in half an hour of flame impingement. The jet fuel fire was more than sufficient to do this.
      The aircraft did not hit the top of the towers but about two thirds up. This meant that the weight of thirty stories or so of concrete and steel was bearing down on these rapidly weakening columns. Perhaps a hundred thousand tons or so.
      The columns bent and then collapsed outwards in the fire affected area, as you can see if you look at the numerous videos of the scenes. The weight of all the upper part then fell straight downwards like a gigantic hammer on the lower floors. No building could withstand such a force.
      I hope that is clear.
      There was no conspiracy, it was simply an over stressed building.
      That is my last word on this nonsense.

    231. Anagach says:


      Fireproofjim says:

      Steel + Fire + Gravity.

      Thank you Fireproofjim.

    232. yesindyref2 says:

      From the Sunday Herald:
      Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has voiced regret over the downing of a Russian military jet, saying his country is “truly saddened” by the incident and wishes it had not occurred.

      It was the first expression of regret by the leader since Tuesday’s incident, in which Turkish F-16 jets shot down the Russian plane on grounds that it had violated Turkey’s airspace despite repeated warnings to change course.

      Yup. Reconciliation starts. Also from the SH:

      The incident marked the first time in half a century that a Nato member had shot down a Russian plane, …

      Officially perhaps. Anyone who spent time near Leuchars, front-line air defence, would raise an eyebrow at that. I would say that during the constant incursions of Russian planes testing the defences of the West, and the resolve to defend the airspace, it wasn’t the first time except the others were unfortunate training incidents.

    233. Angra Mainyu says:

      CameronB, I truthfully didnt even contemplate the bizarre idea that it was a biological division.

      As for semiotics, it’s not something I claimed or claim to have any knowledge of. I made the assumption that the lengthy quote you posted was something you agreed with and if it is, I think you’d get a better handle on the Middle East by reading the Beano or the Guardian.

      You should forgive my arrogance. I’ve been under a barrage of new fancy paradigms for the last 25 years. The one you posted stands out as being the flimsiest I’ve ever heard. The post Cold War desire and impetus to find a new paradigm is interesting though and reeks of desperation.

      And, as I said before, we all know what it’s all really about; I’m not uniquely gifted. I repeat, if it wasn’t for oil most of us, myself included, probably wouldn’t be able to find the Middle East on a map. I know that’s probably too simple an explanation for some but that’s not my problem.

    234. Thepnr says:

      @Angra Mainyu

      Whoops there goes another one!

    235. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Fireproofjim (12.27) –

      ‘That is my last word on this nonsense.’

      Amen to that.

    236. ahundredthidiot says:

      Fireproofjim

      For the love of God, I did NOT speculate on WTC 1 & 2, but i do question building 7

      BUILDING 7!

      Stop dodging the goddamn question.

      And I have never played a PlayStation, but it must give you comfort to pidgeon whole me as some crank.

      I would explain the meaning of my user name, (yes, yes, I am an idiot) but it would be beyond your understanding.

      You and Bill Hume both.

      Night night.

    237. CameronB Brodie says:

      Semiotics, or semiology, is the study of signs, symbols, and signification. It is the study of how meaning is created, not what it is. Below are some brief definitions of semiotic terms, beginning with the smallest unit of meaning and proceeding towards the larger and more complex:

      http://www.uvm.edu/~tstreete/semiotics_and_ads/terminology.html

    238. Angra Mainyu says:

      CemeronB, I think I see what the problem might be. You assume I’m as smart as you and I’m not. Obviously I’m not.

      Imagine what it’s like for a dim-witted non-academic grunt like me, groping around in the dark and finding 4 million bodies one day. I get so emotional and excitable that I forget to consider it in the context of semiotics;

      “total deaths from Western interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan since the 1990s – from direct killings and the longer-term impact of war-imposed deprivation – likely constitute around 4 million (2 million in Iraq from 1991-2003, plus 2 million from the “war on terror”), and could be as high as 6-8 million people when accounting for higher avoidable death estimates in Afghanistan…”

      http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/unworthy-victims-western-wars-have-killed-four-million-muslims-1990-39149394

      Anyway maybe that explains it. I see genocide where you see a battle of ideas. If I ever get the chance, I’d love to try for a degree in something and get my mind right on this stuff.

    239. CameronB Brodie says:

      Angra Mainyu
      Thanks, I posted that very link just the other day. 😉

    240. CameronB Brodie says:

      Angra Mainyu
      Sorry, itchy trigger finger. I agree, we are witnessing a long and drawn out genocide.

      Cheers, btw. That’s the first time I think anyone has suggested I’m anything like an intellectual. I have a grounding in the broad field of human geography but all this philosophy/semiotics is purely self taught. So is recognising how things fit together.

      Then again, perhaps that’s why I’m talking mince?

    241. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      “Anagach says:
      29 November, 2015 at 12:32 am

      Fireproofjim says:

      Steel + Fire + Gravity.

      Thank you Fireproofjim.”

      Leaving aside the question of the violation of several basic laws of physics … if the Official Explanation were correct and had been accepted as a general possibility, as opposed to an ad hoc excuse, then the fire and building regs for large steel-frame buildings would have needed to be completely rewritten, throughout the western world (and anywhere else that bothered about such things). The entire strategy for tackling such fires and the associated training for firefighters would have to have been entirely rethought. A hundred countries would have pulped their manuals and handbooks. There would have been widespread dismay, discussion and revision worldwide within architectural, construction and safety/rescue communities. This could not have passed unnoticed. Yet as far as I know it never happened. This means that the people most informed and concerned could not have taken the Official Explanation seriously, in short they never really believed it. So why should we?

    242. Petra says:

      I’m going to apologise right off here. I’ve been out of the loop for a few days now and haven’t read ANY posts until now so may be reitering a load of old news. Has anyone read that experts now say that IT hackers / terrorists could MOST easily get control of Trident / Westminster’s Nuclear weapons in Scotland? I’m sure I read about this in the Express recently / Lord Brown. If it hasn’t been reported on here I’ll check it out more thoroughly later.

      Anyway I just wanted to say that I went to the hairdressers yesterday and a wee 20 year old guy that I love to bits … great wee guy …. was doing my roots (the girls on here will know what I’m talking about). Cutting a long story short he voted no last year. We talked about Darien, Syria, Russia and so on and he didn’t have a clue to be honest. By the time I left the hairdressers he said he’d definitely vote yes next time round. Brilliant especially as he said he was going to talk to his girlfriend and friends about this too.

      Later I went to a party in a club and actually only knew around eight people there out of over 100 people. I’ve just returned home and would say that I’ve just had the most brilliant of nights overall but more than anything at the end of the night we had the usual Scottish, make circles, jump around like mad men / women to Scottish songs. It culminated with everyone shouting SNP, SNP, SNP. God you folks will know how I felt when I heard that. I was very nearly weeping with happiness. Truth to tell I DID cry.

      Off to bed now with a most happy heart. And I’m going to sleep for as long as I like because I’ve had very few hours of sleep over the last few days. Mmhh happy dreams and happy days to come.

    243. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Sounds good. Re Des Browne on Trident, from the BBC 24th Nov:

      “The UK’s Trident nuclear weapons system could be rendered obsolete by cyber attacks, former Defence Secretary Lord Browne has warned.”

      but (Ex-Conservative Defence Secretary Rifkind)

      “But Sir Malcolm said: “The whole point of our nuclear weapons is not whether they would work – 100% guarantee – if they were ever required. You think they will do.

      The question is whether an enemy contemplating aggression would be prepared to take the risk.”

      Which is kind of an admission that perhaps Trident is open to cyber attack.

      That’s far more the kind of open fact-based debate I’m looking for, one which would also consider the possible international status of hypersonic anti-missile missiles in 2028, which could render not just Trident (SLBM), but any ICBM obsolete by then.

    244. Petra says:

      Oh and aye meant to say that my wee hairdresser guy said that ”I’ve not been too worried about what’s going on. I get up, go to my work, go out and then go to my bed.”

      He reckoned Daesh was solely comprised of Syrian born fighters versus Assad (CorpMedia brainwashing crap once again).

      Asked what Russia was doing? Is Russia on our side or on Syrias side? God give me strength! How can you extrapolate in 30 minutes without confusing and or boring someone to death? Believe me I tried (and eventually won for wont of a better word).

      I said how would you feel if we were dragged into a Third World War by Westminster (with alternatives / in a non fear mongering way) and you were called up? He said but I’m only a hairdresser. I can’t fight. I said check out the types of people called up in WW1 and WW2. I said you wouldn’t be exempt for just being a hairdresser, other than medical exemption, and that’s just one of the reasons why we wanted our Independence.

      Penny dropped eventually! Voting Yes next time round. Too bad Kezia Dugdale ain’t telling the youngsters in Scotland what voting for the Union really means … in real life or death terms.

    245. Petra says:

      Thanks Indyref2. Can’t sleep now! Forget about Rifkind (but let’s check out his MANY crimes and relationships (including his late cousins and nefarious interests later – I’ve got LOADS to say about him).

      Browne has stated that Trident is absolutely wide open now to a terrorist hacker take over. How blo*dy bad …. FRIGHTENING ….is that for us? …. SCOTS?

      Forget about them highjacking trucks on our wee back roads to Faslane (or anywhere in between the WELL- known route between England and Scotland). Forget about Putin managing to get his nukes into the Clyde because Westminster has slashed our protection to zilch. Some wee IT genius somewhere, WORLDWIDE, actually has the capability to control our Nuclear Weapons now it would seem just by sitting in his bedroom and cllicking away on his keyboard.

      On my IPad so can’t post links. No mention on CorpMedia. Surprise, surprise!

      Bottom line … Scotland is lumbered with NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Nuclear weapons that the vast majority of Scots don’t want. Daft wee Scotland one of around 10 known ‘Nuclear’ Countries (maximum) of 200 Countries Worldwide. In other words weapons that no one else in the West wants other than the US and France (and Westminster).

      One of three countries out of 28 in NATO with Nuclear Weapons. Twenty five don’t want them or have them. Scotland at massive risk of Nuclear accidents / Nuclear Radiation leaks. Attraction for Terrorists. Destruction of one of our most beautiful tourist areas.

      Unable to drill for oil off the West Coast of Scotland due to Trident.

      England makes all of the dough in relation to Trident. Scotland gets basically nought financially from this. Don’t believe Labour … Liar Baillie.. Check out MoD figures online.

      AND DON’T EVER FORGET THAT NO ONE WANTS THEM BASED IN ENGLAND.

      WHY NOT?

      RESEARCH SHOWS THAT THE POSSIBILITY OF NUCLEAR ACCIDENT ALONE WOULD ACCOUNT FOR TOO MANY ‘UNACCEPTABLE’ DEATHS IN ENGLAND.

      If you voted no last year and are reading this now. … GET REAL FGS …. before we all get blown to Kingdom Come.

      Time for Kezia Dugdale and the Labour Party in Scotland to start telling the truth. If I know it. THEY KNOW IT.

      And oh Kezia who gives a toss about how many children can read and how long you’ve got to sit in NHS A.& E if Scotland could get blown to smithereens tomorrow. AW right. Doesn’t matter does it because you’ve hitched your (and our) wagon to Westminster.

    246. Reviresco says:

      Good God (ahem), “Nyet Pravda” now in full war mode. Even R4 religious programme just now espousing how Churchill had a vision in which the Lord told him he would save London, England and the Empire from an evil dictator.

    247. jock mcdonnell says:

      Petra, Indyref2 Rifkind’s comments ironically suggest we Don’t need nukes, just pretending to have a working system is enough & of course, cheaper.

    248. sensibledave says:

      Anagach 8:57 am Saturday

      … just popped in to respond to Anagach yesterday morning.

      I Wrote: Oh, you mean like Angus Robertson – that said in HoC that he wants to see a fully “costed” plan before he decides whether the bear has been naughty?

      You Wrote “I am guessing Angus Robertson did not say that”.

      Hansard 26th November, Angus Robertson to the Prime Minister

      …. “Today, he wants us to launch a bombing campaign without effective ground support or a fully costed reconstruction and
      stability plan.”

      I hope I have erased you “doubts”.

    249. Another Union Dividend says:

      Sunday Times (now weekly or is it weakly) story on Lib Dems ratcheting up their smear campaign, via constituency newsletter, against Michelle Thomson calling for a by election in the vain hope that voters would go back to voting Lib Dems.

    250. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      29 November, 2015 at 9:32 am
      Anagach 8:57 am Saturday

      But you only did the usual sneaky creepy UKOK thing sensible, misquote Robertson.

      Very tawdry, very toryboy, red or blue sensibledave.

    251. sensibledave says:

      Heedy – 9.46

      No Heedy – I watched the discussion live and the quote is directly from Hansard. You may be uncomfortable with what he said, to paraphrase, he wants an accounting document to help him decide enormous moral issues like going to war – but you can’t deny he said it!

      Just watched Stuart Hosie taking a similar line on Jeremy Marr.

    252. The Isolator says:

      Oh oh Notso’s back in da house!

    253. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 29 November, 2015 at 9:32 am:

      Do you know the significance of the Scots expression, “Awa an bile yer heid”.

    254. Tam Jardine says:

      Petra, Jock, yesindyref2

      Interesting coments from Rifkind. The opposite scenario would be to spend money on an expensive nuclear weapons system and yet not convince leaders abroad that the ‘deterrent’ is independent or fully functional.

      I see the trident debate and many other issues as fundamental struggles between 2 clear, cogent positions (unilateral disarmament against upgrading the weapons system for military/security reasons) where we end up with the morally absurd position of re-arming whilst favouring multilateral disarmament.

      Our own constitution is the same – I disagree with people who love the UK and see us as simply a region of this larger state but I see it as a clear position.

      Devolution is just a fudge- and will never work in the long term. We are either better organised by a parliament in Edinburgh or London and having some functions decided by London (by the MPs of a far larger country) and some functions decided in Edinburgh by our own MSPs, with areas like welfare and taxation being split between the 2 is not a credible long term solution.

      I’m listening to the radio (with that arse Clegg sounding deflated that the Natalie McGarry story is petering out). The debate on Syria seems to be between a clear postion I completely disagree with (a ground invasion) and not intervening militarily at all…. instead we are looking at trying to solve the problems of the region by raining hell down on Syria without getting our hands dirty.

      You can either be a peace-loving country, working for a better world or a war-mongering aggressive state. We (the UK) purport to be a force for good in the world yet are one of the largest exporters of arms.

      I think the expression is falling between two stools- that seems to be the default position these days.

    255. sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 9.58

      … surprised you are showing yourself Robert – after your nonsense on the other thread. Have you learned to read yet?

    256. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      29 November, 2015 at 9:50 am
      Heedy – 9.46

      No Heedy –

      You took the “costing” bit of what was said and ran with that sensibledave. That’s fine, no biggee, we’re all more than accustomed to sneaky shit bullshitters daily pouring SNP bad UKOK propaganda over our heeds. BBC Scotland’s the nost aggresive at this style of attack propaganda but heyho.

      Let me try it.

      “Sensibledave is an honest to goodness sneaky creepy red/blue toryboy activist and bullshit arteest, trying to break up WoS CiF with all kinds of sneaky creepy BetterTogether bollox.”

      Or as you will quote, “sensibledave is honest”.

    257. Famous15 says:

      It is always sensible to have an exit strategy. That does cost. So?

    258. Ken500 says:

      Churchill did not save London, England Empire from anything. The Russians did. the Empire acted as. Fifth column and fought with the Japs in Asia. Thailand, Burma because They wanted Independence from British rule. India had a fifth column. Against the Allies. surrender at Singapore. The Allies could have beaten the Japs who had weak extended supply lines.

      In Eurooe

      26 Milllion Rusians died (1 in six)
      15 Million Germns died (1 in 4)
      10. Million Poles
      8 Million Jews (in Poland?)
      2 Million Americans
      1/2 million French
      1/2 Million Brutish

      The Russians took the biggest hit in Europe. A foe came sweep into Russia (Steppes) but it can’t get out. The Russian winter. The Russian economy was desvastated. There is a melancholy to Russia because of 11WW. Still remembered. It wasn’t Communism which destroyed the Russian economy it was the 11WW. The re-armourment of Russia after the 11WW was expensive and was taking up resources which could have been invested in the economy. Russia/US had to stop the Arms race 1970’s because it was bankrupting both countries. They had to sign reduction in arms limiting Treaties.

      The Arabs fought with the Allies in 11WW. They didn’t appreciate being invaded by Germany/Italy. They were still denied the vote. The West reneged and still took the Oil Churchill took Iran’s Oil in the 1950’s. M15/CIA caused unrest. Spread rumours the PM was homosexual. The elected PM was put in jail. The deposed Shah was reinstated and the West took all the oil resources. Leaving Iran in poverty. The US has just supplied Iran with nuclear. Iran has enough sun, oil & Gas for fuel and energy. In the 11WW Italy invade Greece.

      The nonsense that Cameron is peddling is entirely dangerous. Cameron is rewriting history and is a dangerously ignorant and arrogant psychopath. The 11WW in Asia ended with Nuclear bombs.

      Faslane is thirty miles from Faslane. Nuclear weapons were dumped in Scotland without
      permission by the Tories. They were going to be placed at Fort William but the Americans complained and so they were dumped at Faslane, in top secret. McMillian was seriously paronoid and had mental health issues. It appears Cameron is the same. He seems to see himself as a reincarnation of Churchill. An alcoholic. Alcoholics make poor decisions unless they receive proper counselling and abstain. Westminster should be drink/drug tested. The drinks and drugs flow too freely there on expenses. A place of power addicted addicts too many are under the influence of mind effecting substances who make poor decisions. Open to blackmail and corruption. If they vote for illegal military action in Syria they are seriously deluded and will be punished at the Ballot box or people just will not vote. A danger to democracy. It will come back to haunt them. Just like Iraq.

      Scottish taxpayers money better not be used for this deluded illusion, when people can’t eat, heat or sleep for worry. Vulnerable people are being sanctioned and starved. Another misguided, illegal invasion doesn’t have majority support.

    259. Ken500 says:

      @ Andrew Marr

    260. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 10:03 am

      Did Angus Robertson, in addition to other questions and issues, say he wanted to see a “costed plan” Heedy.? Yes or No Heedy?

      That was what Anargach was commenting upon. He doubted he said it. He did say it. Get over yourself.

    261. Socrates MacSporran says:

      sensibledave

      You really are out of your depth on this site. Angus Robertson’s comments in the HoC make far more sense than Hambone’s obvious relish for a bombing campaign.

      If we go down the Hambone route, even with the so-called “intelligent” Brimstone bomb (isn’t “intelligent bomb” the ultimate oxymoron?) we cannot guarantee we will only take-out the Daesch ledership, we will almost-certainly end-up with lots of collateral damage – ie, civilian casualties. This will make a bad situation worse.

      Bliar and Bush took us into Iraq with no thoughts of, what happens afterwards, with the resulting chaos in that country. Now, apparently, Hambone wants to see that chaos, which has already extended into Syria, continue and worsen.

      It is obviously, all about the oil. We cannot go to war to suit the most-dangerous nation on earth, the USA, again.

      Angus Robertson’s remarks were an oasis of truth in a HoC which is skewed towards serving the needs of the neo-liberal elite and their big business chums.

      Bombing Daesch will make this country less-safe.

    262. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 29 November, 2015 at 9:50 am:

      ” … he wants an accounting document to help him decide enormous moral issues like going to war – but you can’t deny he said it!

      Pish! I’d warrant both Robertson and Hosie had long ago made their minds up about the matter. Their stance is that the electorate, should be given facts and costings by the warmongering pig fancier Hameron.

      These sabre rattling congenital idiots have been steeping the World, and the Butcher’s Apron, in innocent blood on bogus pretexts for far too long.

      That blood includes the blood of far too many innocent people and many Scottish troops among them.

    263. K1 says:

      Your interpretation of Angus Robertson’s ‘intent’ is what’s being questioned. You have a tendency to imbue with your own hue the motivations of those you cite, as having those ‘ulterior’ motives that your own cynical outlook produces.

      Couldn’t be that Angus’s statement reveals systematic integrity from the core to the execution in representing the SNP’s stance regarding the bombing of Syria. Couldn’t be that they want full and transparent clarity from the UN and all other protagonists before committing to any plan to bomb Syria. Couldn’t be that they are quite correct and in fact far more circumspect in their handling of this than yer gung ho Tory pals?

      Nah…SNP bad. We get it dave. We really do. Yer shallowness knows no depths.

    264. Ken500 says:

      Andrew Vine?

      Rewriting history. Poor research

    265. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Rev I,ve had a shitty week last week,not having time to post on WoS. Start of this week had a bit of layin, 2nd post in 10.12 resident Troll.

      Can we Wingers no have a POLL to BAN TROLLS from WoS site.

    266. Angra Mainyu says:

      Ken, serious question…. I heard when Churchill was skint after losing his money in the stock market that he started forging and selling paintings (i.e. fraudulently passing them off as the real thing). Is it true?

      I also heard the Americans and Roosevelt knee about this and sort took the mickey out of him about it.

    267. Bill Hume says:

      It seems to me that we really need to contact @sesible dave’s mum and get her to limit the time he spends on his computer. It can’t be good for his health.

      Furthermore, she could point out that if he doesn’t ‘play nice’ Santa will not bring him any presents.

    268. Legerwood says:

      Sensibledave

      “Hansard 26th November, Angus Robertson to the Prime Minister

      …. “Today, he wants us to launch a bombing campaign without effective ground support or a fully costed reconstruction and
      stability plan.”

      The operative words about costs there are ‘reconstruction and
      stability plan’

      In short, once you have bombed IS out of Syria how do you put Syria back together again and what will it cost. That is a moral and ethical position to take.

      This is very much a question that should be asked and must be answered. The UK cannot walk away after bombing Syria leaving it to its own devices to rebuild the country. Neither can the UK make an open ended commitment towards that reconstruction when it is cutting benefits and services to the most vulnerable people within the UK.

      Mr Robertson was correct to ask the question because it is right that the people of the UK know that there are plans in place for the aftermath of the bombing and that the costs have been considered. Without that sort of planing in place then the UK government is just repeating the mistakes of Iraq.

    269. Bob Mack says:

      The costed plan was about how much the UK and other nations would contribute to ensure rebuilding Syria post conflict.It was not looking for a “Black Friday” cost per bomb.

      It is what we should have done in Libya and Iraq.
      That not a consideration for you Davie Boy?

    270. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      29 November, 2015 at 10:12 am
      heedtracker 10:03 am

      Did Angus Robertson, in addition to other questions and issues, say he wanted to see a “costed plan” Heedy.? Yes or No Heedy?

      I don’t know what Robertson said sensible.

      Point is, you took one part of the coming UKOK war and it’s debates, to UKOK monster an SNP MP. We know this because you then gave the whole quote, which covered more or less all aspects of a extremely dangerous and complex case for and against war currently being made.

      Should there even be a costing? Robertson seems to have learned from New Labour’s Iraq invasion horror, that maybe there really should be a rebuild plan, evaluation, feasibility, outcome etc.

      Gung-ho war mongers like you red/blue toryboy bombers flying desks should maybe ease off the rule Britannia jingo stuff but like I said, we’re all more than used to BBC UKOK monstering of everything Scotland and Scotland’s outrageous insolence in not shutting up and let bigboy red/blue tory twerps and buffoons slaughter their way across the middle east, again.

    271. Fireproofjim says:

      Angra mainyu@10.30
      Churchill forging paintings?????
      That is definitely “I heard it from a man in the pub”

    272. Tam Jardine says:

      ronnie anderson

      Hi Ronnie- I understand your frustration- but look at it another way- while these voices of the established order are on here they are not operating machinary, driving buses or trains, piloting aircraft or monitoring the core.

      It may be the safest place for them.

    273. Ken500 says:

      The Unionists will get another kicking at the Ballot Box if this illegal action goes ahead without majority support. Labour are finished in the UK.

      US/UK funded and armed Daresh/Isis. The ‘Free’ Syrian Army was funded by US/UK. Iraqis sent into Syria funded by US/UK . Putin tried to broker talks but the West refused. The West is sponsoring the terror.

      This action is just a diversion from the increasing economic stress in the UK. Football (sport) and shopping the Opium of the people.

    274. gerry parker says:

      @ Tam.

      yer right there Tam.

      Also the replies to these minor irritations helps us reply to similar conversations from the Corporate Media readers we encounter during the week.

    275. Angra Mainyu says:

      Fireproofjim, actually, the eminent historian David Irving goes into quite a lot of detail on this. Hard to find any other source though. I believe it.

      P.S. No need to tell me what you think of David Irving, I’m aware of his supposed flaws.

    276. gus1940 says:

      Ken 500 at 10.04

      US deaths in WW2 – 405,400 from a population of 129,200,000

      Germany deaths in WW2 – Military 3,250,000 Civilian 2,050,000 from a population of 78,000,000

      Source – The World War II Data Book by John Ellis pub. 1993.

      O/T 1

      After yesterday’s fantastic Davis Cup Doubles how long will it be before the Tennis Authorities and Broadcasters realise what a great sporting spectacle Doubles is – far more exciting and interesting to watch than Singles yet Doubles is practically ignored by the media with the players being paid a pittance compared to those starring in Singles. It is an asset and earner staring them in the face.

      O/T 2

      As the argy bargy about the tendering for Scottish Ferry Services continues can anybody answer the following question:-

      Is there any legal reason why state owned CalMac should not be able to run adequately subsidised ferry services to The Continent? After all it is not so long since the then state owned British Rail ran most of the ferry services to The Continent and RoI.

    277. Daisy Walker says:

      Petra, re hairdressers,

      I too was recently at the hairdressers, getting the full works. It is in a well to do residential area, traditionally Tory. Alas it voted no…. However, many of the old dearies coming in now, are saying how sorry they are about it, how appalled they are by WM behaviour and next time they are voting YES.

      Progress. Glad you had a good night.

    278. sensibledave says:

      To all above. This thread was about a cartoon. A cartoon, by its very nature, attempts to highlight, or ridicule or just laugh at, a particular point of view on a particular subject. The point isn’t argued out, it isn’t assessed for pros and cons, the nuances of the argument are not explored with all sides having a say. It is just a cartoon.

      I responded with a comment aimed at one particular aspect of the other side of the argument – and everyone squeals “foul”.

      Sensitive lot aren’t you.

      On a slightly different point, if you continue to believe that everyone that holds a different point of view to you on a particular subject is part of some political establishment, paid hack or political activist – then your paranoia will continue increase until you explode.

      For instance, regardless of the arguments for or against, no one could deny that potentially bombing ISIL in Syria is a hugely complex and difficult subject. We can see, that in the HoC, there are a huge range of views within each party. There is no “establishment” position. There are discussions and arguments that are on going and if Cameron thinks he can get a majority then he will go for a vote – but clearly it is not a slam dunk – so save your bunker mentalities, persecution complexes and paranoia for another subject.

      If you can’t handle a simple, un-nuanced, un-argued side-swipe back in response to a silly cartoon then you really need to examine how good your arguments are.

    279. HandandShrimp says:

      Angra Maniyu

      Yes I did say I agree with the action to support the Kurds in Iraq. You also appear, in a round about way, to agree with me that we should prevent their slaughter so I am still unclear as to what your argument is.

      I will reiterate mine, we broke Iraq, a war I opposed, and we have a responsibility to assist where we can which, in my view, largely revolves around assisting legitimately elected governments like the Kurdish autonomous region. Whether it is the first time we have got that right, it almost certainly is, does not alter the fact that it is right. To be consistently wrong in the past is no argument in support of opting to be wrong in the future.

      I do not think Cameron has made a good case for us to add to the hell and confusion in Syria because it is unclear to me whom and what we are supporting on the ground and I don’t think Cameron is clear in his own mind on that matter either.

      In summary, not all actions are the same. Supporting the Kurds has a clear purpose. War in Syria has no apparent purpose other than lashing out at Daesh. However cathartic that might immediately appear following bombs in planes, Paris, Beirut and Kuwait, it lacks strategic forethought and joined up thinking with all the other key forces in Syria. Consequently, I do not support such action and I do not think the majority of posters here support action on this basis.

    280. caz-m says:

      If the Tories say one of the reasons that their allies want the RAF to get involved in Syria is because the Brimstone Missile is so accurate that it can pinpoint an ISIL leader and take him out, without killing civilians.

      Then, by that logic, if the RAF have been bombing in Iraq for over a year, they must have killed off every leader of ISIL in Iraq. No?

    281. sensibledave says:

      I don’t know whether The Huffington Post is perceived as “acceptable” reading here on Wings. If it is, then follow this link – it pretty much echoes how I feel.

      http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/robin-lustig/syria-bombing_b_8660956.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

      If you don’t want to read another point of view, or The Huffington Post is deemed to be part of the MSM “establishment” conspiracy machine – then don’t.

    282. Ken500 says:

      Rev Stu keeps the Unionist trolls out to protect the site. He is a busy person. They have destroyed every other website, Best ignore the unionist trolls. No oxygen phases them out.

      Churchill/Royals benefitted from the War but lost the Peace. The 1945 Election

      The Royals stepping through the poppies. They should be apologising. (cost £400 Million) The European Royal family (Victoria’s (grand/children) caused the 1WW. The European Royals were inbreds. Cousins married cousins and their parents were cousins. Interdependant Treaties. (Look it up) No universal suffrage until 1928.

      The Czar (‘devine right of Kings’ ) invaded Germany. His cousin the Kaiser Willheim and George 111? Tried to dissuade him but Czar Nicholas 11? invaded Germany. The Germans were winning. The Russians were in poverty and deprivation. Serfs. In 1917 the Russian Navy mutinied. The start of the Russian Revolution. Russia withdrew from the War. Millions died. The League of Nations. The 11WW Germany invaded Russia.

      Germany and Russia are reluctant to be draw into War for obvious reasons. US/UK and France have not learnt the lesson. Cameron, Johnston, the Royals are distant cousins. descendent from monarchy. Churchill was the same. American wife. They use the Official Secrets Act to cover up their criminality and lies. British skint landowning classes married rich Americans for money. The ‘nouveau rich’.

      The Royals are not impartial, but canvass and try to influence Gov fiscal policies and take part in illegal wars etc. They are used by the politicians for monetary rewards. Embezzling public money and funds. The rewards and remuneration are high and excessive for both parties.

    283. Proud Cybernat says:

      “If you can’t handle a simple, un-nuanced, un-argued side-swipe back in response to a silly cartoon then you really need to examine how good your arguments are.”

      Touchy, S’Dave#4? Or are you S’Dave#5?

      Here’s a nuanced thought for you: Bombing isn’t the solution. Never will be. The gunh-ho, vile sabernats are only wanting ‘a piece of the action’ in order to secure a ‘piece of the cake’ afterwards when Sysria is occupied and divided by the ‘ally forces’ much like Germany was after WWII.

      There’s no need for any ore bombs. There’s plenty raining down on Syria already. What’s needed is diplomacy. Why is the UK seeking to bomb first, ask questions later? Why doesn’t the UK actually try something diffrent from all the other countries who are happily bombing the crap out of Syria; why doesn’t the UK try to broker peace instead?

      Nah–that would be much too radical, wouldn’t it. Best just bomb the brown-skinned feckers, eh, S’Dave. And when their guerillas target your home town and perhaps injure members of your familly, S’Dave#5, you will know the reason why. And don’t come here and tell us you weren’t warned.

      Fucking vile sabernat eejits.

    284. heedtracker says:

      No toryboy wants to go on BBC Scotland Sunday politics thing to explain stuff what they renege on. Liars and cowards, how very toryboy

      http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ebf44a62-9d4a-11e3-a599-00144feab7de.html#axzz3ssapdxaC

      Billion quid UKOK Carbon Capture investment comes to the blue toon. BUT

      “The move is the government’s second in two months to encourage the capture of carbon dioxide emissions from a power plant and bury them under the North Sea, following the announcement in December of a similar deal for a coal-fired power plant in Yorkshire.

      However, Mr Davey cast doubt on the future of the Peterhead scheme if Scotland votes Yes in the September referendum on whether it should become an independent country.”

      Vote all unionist out of Scotland next May.

    285. Wuffing Dug says:

      See obsequious Dave is all over the boards again, he’s like a bout of aggressive eczema.

      As soon as I see his name my eyes immediately flit to the next post but sometimes his drivel befouls your vision.

      ‘Heedy o’ where for art thou Heedy’.

      BOAK

    286. caz-m says:

      Ronnie Anderson 10.28am

      Regarding sensibledave, I still say that he is a regular poster on here and he is sitting there talking to himself.

      A bit like Norman Bates in the movie “Psycho”. Bates was convinced that his mother was still alive and he ended up have a two way conversation with himself.

      I think we have our own Norman Bates on Wings. You know who you are.

      Creepy!

    287. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      29 November, 2015 at 11:35 am
      I don’t know whether The Huffington Post is perceived as “acceptable” reading here on Wings

      That lot merely cut n paste what they read elsewhere sensible, and everything UK is toryboy propaganda.

      Hope that helps

    288. Ken500 says:

      @Gus those figures are questionable. – Do not include all numbers in Europe and Asia. 2Million Americans (include) far East Asia? German death include (Austria) 15Million included Far East/ Asia?. A lot anyway.

      Wikipedia. Google (or whatever)

    289. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 10:33 am

      “I don’t know what Robertson said sensible.”

      Quelle surprise! And yet you argue that you do. Go to Hansard at: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmhansrd/chan77.pdf … scroll down to page 18 of the document and read, word for word what was said.

      “Point is, you took one part of the coming UKOK war and it’s debates, to UKOK monster an SNP MP.”

      …. and what was it that the cartoon did Heedy!

      … you are such a numptie!

    290. caz-m says:

      Wuffing Dug 11.39am

      Regarding the troll, you are getting very warm as to who is behind sensibledave.

      Know what I mean, nudge nudge!

    291. Bob Mack says:

      The Huffington Post has printed articles questioning the wisdom of arming anti Assad groups.
      You can find them for yourself easily enough.

    292. DerekM says:

      no Dave its your argument thats is flawed but like a typical pretendy Liberal your head is full of mince and as an arrogant Englishman you seem to think you are always right and everybody else is wrong.

      Oh and Dave there is a line between being a liberal and a troll and you just crossed it.

      now away and eat your BBC propaganda cereal like a good little UKOK sheep, guaranteed to kill of independent thought and rot self awareness.

      Baaaa or should that be oink.

    293. Ken500 says:

      Some people didn’t used to watch the doubles. They weren’t promoted the same. Now the Doubles are more promoted more people are watching. They can be just as interesting. There is no doubt the Murray brothers have promoted Tennis and Scotland worldwide. An asset. 2nd + in the world out of 7Billion people. That is quite an achievement.

      Does Djokovic and Nadal? take drugs? Dope. Certain misdemeanours, physical attitude, eye reaction. There was a Clinic in Majorca supplying stimulants to Spanish + cyclists? tennis payers and footballers It was all hushed up. A cover up. Andy Murray says there is little drug testing in Tennis.

    294. Gavin says:

      No senseless Dave we are not sensitive, nor paranoid. Simply angry, and in my opinion we have every right to be after the conduct of the establishment and project fear over the last few years. If you lot thought that after the referendum we were going to get back in our box, wallow in despair and feel sorry for ourselves then you were very much mistaken.

      The people of Scotland don’t want to be involved in illegal wars, don’t want expensive and useless trident submarines and don’t want our country asset stripped. That’s why we voted SNP this year and will do so next year.

      Just keep up your usual shit stirring Dave. It just motivates us all the more. Remember, anger is more useful than despair.

      Have a nice day.

    295. HandandShrimp says:

      I don’t know whether The Huffington Post is perceived as “acceptable” reading here on Wings.

      Dave

      We all post links to various news sources. The Huffington Post is no worse and possibly at times better in terms of balance than many. The Daily Wail may bring up a few groans though and any link to Cochrane in the Telegraph will be read for comedy value only.

      Lustig explains why he is a reluctant bomber. He has opted for a course but it appears to be on a wing and a prayer. I would anticipate Syria being far more like Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq than Bosnia, Kosovo and Sierra Leone.

      Consequently I think he has made the wrong choice.

    296. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      29 November, 2015 at 11:46 am
      heedtracker 10:33 am

      “I don’t know what Robertson said sensible.”

      Quelle surprise! And yet you argue that you do

      Now sensibledave, stop fibbing. I didnt argue anything with you when you quoted Robertson, or rather part quoted him.

      When you gave his whole case and what he actually said, then I asked you what on earth it is you think youre doing.

      But that’s how attack propaganda works in teamGb sensibledave.

      Maybe Bomber Bliar, Crash Gordon, expenses fraudster Flipper Darling etc really DID have a restructuring plan, costed and structured to at least try and rebuild the Iraq they were about to bomb back to the stone age, but clearly these lying maniacs had nothing.

      Got to say sensibledave, when you see the horror that red toryboys like Crash Brown have caused in the middle east alone, its was awful watching same madman like Gordo destroy Scottish independence last September, if you’re a YES vote.

      On balance, describing assorted lying maniacs like Bomber Bliar and Crash is a bit unfair, you probably don’t get honest maniacs, not in the UKOK Westminster madhouse at least.

    297. Ken500 says:

      Cameron really is a divisive figure. A threat to democracy.

    298. sensibledave says:

      Proud Cybernat 11:38 am

      You wrote “…. Touchy, S’Dave#4? Or are you S’Dave#5?

      …. I am Spartacus, as you know.

      You wrote: …. What’s needed is diplomacy”

      Is there another Winger that thinks it is possible to achieve a diplomatic outcome with ISIL?

      You wrote “Fucking vile sabernat eejits”.

      …. pathetic.

    299. sensibledave says:

      HandandShrimp 12.03

      ….. That is exactly how a discussion should be conducted.

      I respect and understand your conclusion – even though yours is a different conclusion to mine.

    300. ronnie anderson says:

      @ caz-m I dont want to sound ah bit like Dewareesk But I like that ah lot, (Psyhco Norman Bates) ah wisht his otherself SD would faw oan his big Chibb,lets lock him oot of Wings.

    301. Bill says:

      There is no possibility of a diplomatic solution to the current situation. Unfortunately we’re in it up to our necks due not only to Blair et al but also ourselves. We’re an ignorant war mongering nation that took no notice of warnings.

      We’re all complicit in this, from the house wife doing a shift at Raytheon to our elected representatives.

      I’m looking at a Geiger counter on eBay for Christmas.

    302. Yous stil don’t get it do you to leave the Middle East in turmoil was the plan all along that way they posed no united threat to anyone?and it will delay the day they do

    303. schrodingers cat says:

      Bill says:

      I’m looking at a Geiger counter on eBay for Christmas.

      eat, drink, be merry……

      tomorrow we may be radioactive…

    304. Ken500 says:

      The American casualties in 11WW would be lower (pro rata) because they didn’t enter the conflict until 1941 (two years later). The Pearl Harbour incident. Japan bombed the US Naval fleet without warning. Japan was an Imperialist nation. Caused a lot of wars. Russo/Japanese War. Japan Invaded China 1937. Extremely coarse.

      The Spanish Civil Wars 1937. Franco hired German planes to bomb in Spain. Spain stayed out of the 11WW, certain neutrality but supported the Nazis. Franco right wing dictator committed genocide. Picasso ‘Geronica’ Anti war painting.

      11WW ended with nuclear bombing in Japan by US. Damaging the world.

    305. sensibledave says:

      Gavin 12.01

      You wrote “The people of Scotland don’t want to be involved in illegal wars”

      “UN Resolution 2249 (2015)

      …. Clause 5. UN Resolution Calls upon Member States that have the capacity to do so to take all necessary measures, in compliance with international law, in particular with the United Nations Charter, as well as international human rights, refugee and humanitarian law, on the territory under the control of ISIL also known as Da’esh, in Syria and Iraq, to redouble and coordinate their efforts to prevent and suppress terrorist acts committed specifically by ISIL also known as Da’esh as well as ANF, and all other individuals, groups, undertakings, and entities associated with Al Qaeda, and other terrorist groups, as designated by the United Nations Security Council, and as may further be agreed by the International Syria Support Group (ISSG) and endorsed by the UN Security Council, pursuant to the Statement of the International Syria Support Group (ISSG) of 14 November, and to eradicate the safe haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria;”

      Gavin, based upon the above, could you explain your assertion that bombing ISIL in Syria would be illegal.

    306. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I am Spartacus, as you know.”

      No, you’re not Spartacus ’cause he’s dead. You’re more like a spare cactus; bristling with stabby sabernat things to draw blood.

      “Is there another Winger that thinks it is possible to achieve a diplomatic outcome with ISIL?

      IS there any world politician that has seriosuly tried getting everyone round a table? No? Thought not. It’s god to talk.

      “You wrote “Fucking vile sabernat eejits”.

      …. pathetic.”

      …but right.

      Now away and take your vile sabernat UKOKery guff elsewhere.

    307. schrodingers cat says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      “I am Spartacus”

      I’m Brian and so’s my wife”

    308. heedtracker says:

      The Daily Wail may bring up a few groans though

      A few groans?!

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545901/Cybernats-unmasked-Meet-footsoldiers-pro-Scottish-independence-army-online-poison-shames-Nationalists.html

      Neo fascists are a crazy breed. At least Daily Heil reprobates dont hack the phones of murder children, or maybe they did, its all one and the same, a living horror run by very rich tax dodgers and their hired goons.

      How frightfully British. Most countries would tar and feather the lot but its says a lot about tolerance that they’re not, and your average Heil reader is a curtain twitching pervert and tory voter.

    309. sensibledave says:

      You will be delighted to know that I am signing off now.

      Team GB in the tennis, the Grand Prix and the footy trumps my mission to educate and inform.

    310. Gavin says:

      Senseless Dave. Please tell me where in my post did I state that the current Syrian conflict was an illegal war ?

      While your at it Dave, why don’t you dig up some UN resolutions regarding Israels illegal occupation of Palestine and Israels possession of nuclear weapons.

      Let’s look at western involvement in the Middle East since 1945. Britain in Palestine 1947 – turned out well that one didn’t it ! Suez – a complete fiasco. Gulf war one – lots of dead Iraqi civilians and conscripts. Afghanistan – the taliban are still there. Gulf war two – caused the present fucking mess. Libya – yet another fuck up. The result – more terrorists, more extremism, more dead people, more refugees.

      So you tell me. How will bombing Syria improve matters ?

    311. heedtracker says:

      Team GB in the tennis, the Grand Prix and the footy trumps my mission to educate and inform.

      Another Scottish sports victory, thanks to the greatest athlete the UK has ever produced, from Dunblane, Scotland!

      Haste ye back sensibledave, 1, 2. 3, 4, and even 5.

    312. Angra Mainyu says:

      Handandshrimp, thanks for admitting you are keen on bombing the Middle East, something you suggested nobody was actually in favour of on here when you asked which windmill I was tilting at.

      And, as usual, it’s bombing for the right, benevolent reasons too. If I had a pound for every bomb we dropped for the right well-meaning reasons…

      You ask what I’m in favour of with regards to the Kurds and seem to hint that I want to drop bombs in the Middle East too. I don’t. I’m not a pacifist though, there are a few places that I think dropping bombs might have positive results, but Iraq isn’t one of them.

      As for what to do with the Kurds, I have no idea but I know we are the wrong people to ask given our record in the region and our record of disregarding and shitting on the Kurds.

      My Kurdish friends, many of whom live in Glasgow, want their territory recognised as a state by the UN. You might want to look into who regularly and actively opposes that. Turkey is guilty of genoicde in relation to the Kurds and that isn’t ancient history, the worst of it occurred in the 1990s and we were complicit.

      As for the immediate threat to the Kurds, i have no idea what should be done. The Kurds I know see Turkey as a bigger threat than ISIS. Hard to believe simply bombing would solve anything, more than likely it would make matters worse, but Britain definitely shouldn’t be bombing anyone.

    313. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave
      Your posting implied Robertson was asking about a costed plan for bombimg the shit out of Syria. What he was asking was for a costed plan for reconstruction and rebuilding after the bombing.

      If you don’t understand the difference between the two, then may your God help you.

    314. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. Apologies if this has already been discussed recently,but The National reported yesterday the Orkney Four are facing rising costs.
      They may have to re-launch their Crowdfunding Appeal as rising bills keep coming.

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/costs-rise-as-bills-arrive-for-orkney-four.10533

    315. HandandShrimp says:

      Angra Maniyu

      The Peshmerga forces specifically asked for help and they would like us to do even more. Such support may upset Turkey and possibly others in the region but I see little reason to deny them that support. They have shown resolve to defend their people and towns from invading thugs. You appear to want to wash your hands and hope for the best.

      As I have already agreed, our record in the region is poor and the post WW1 betrayal of the Kurds is an example of that. However, one does not make amends by heaping one betrayal on another.

      You advocate complete withdrawal from the region. I agree that we should not have gone in. However, having caused much of the problem I believe we have a responsibility to assist where it is both wanted and required. As I am also not a pacifist I think that this includes military support to the Kurds and Iraqi government.

      On the matter of Syria I would again advocate that we do not enter the conflict. This discussion is about Cameron’s intent to do that. I do not think there much support on this board for such action. I certainly do not support it.

    316. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I know he’s a regular Daily Heil columnist; and yes, he is, in many matters, somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, but, in today’s column in the Mail on Sunday, Peter Hutchins makes several good and salient points.

      Not least is the point that, the RAF does not have enough Tornadoes to mount a sustainable and meaningful contribution to any bombing of Daesh in Syria.

      Just like his hero, Anthony B Liar, Hambone is determined to have his war. Be very afraid.

    317. Thepnr says:

      @sensibledave

      Gavin 12.01

      You wrote “The people of Scotland don’t want to be involved in illegal wars”

      Your at it again!

      Resolution 2249 does NOT authorise the use of force in Syria. Possibly one of the more Right Wing papers the Daily Telegraph give an explanation you can understand.

      “UN approves Syria resolution – what does it mean?”

      Member states urged to take “all necessary measures” but falls short of invoking Chapter VII of the UN charter which authorises military action to restore peace and security”

      https://archive.is/Webyw

    318. handclapping says:

      That’s a lovely bear Chris but Hambone is too grown up, it should be I’ve got Trident submarines

    319. Angra Mainyu says:

      Handandshrimp,

      Despite initially denying it, you have now — thanks to my examination of your posts — admitted that you are actually in favour of Britain bombing the Middle East.

      Now you talk about me wanting to wash my hands of things — you’re the one who wants to bomb people, and it’s your hands that need washed of the blood on them, not mine.

      I said twice that I don’t have an answer to the question of what we should do to protect the Kurds. I didn’t say I wanted to leave them to be annihilated. I’m happy not to have an answer, though, and think it’s healthy to admit you don’t have all the answers sometimes.

      My general view on international relations is that the world is dangerously chaotic right now and one of the main reasons for that is that International Law has been seriously undermined recently. I think the world needs drastic and meaningful change but I’m not daft enough to think it might happen any time soon.

      It’s easy to imagine though that things could be better in the Middle East and there must be a more intelligent response available to us than simply bombing people.

      I think it’s time that the Palestinians were given a fair deal and that would go a long way towards defusing the Middle East and undermining ISIS. It would also help relations between the West and Muslim more generally, here in Britain and everywhere.

      The same could be said of the Kurds.

      I also think those who destroyed Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan should pay reparations towards rebuilding those societies. I recognise though that our destruction of these places has been so absolute that it would be difficult to work out who you’d pay reparations to.

      You keep saying that the mistakes we made in the past shouldn’t be used as an excuse for doing nothing to help now. Strange logic that. Apply it to a mad child-killing axe man who wants into the playground where your kids are playing and tell me if it still holds for you. You might think I’m being melodramatic or something with this, I’m not, if anything it’s a euphemism.

    320. Paula Rose says:

      Hi Angra – how’s the influence? http://www.twitteraudit.com

    321. Angra Mainyu says:

      Paula, hi, everything is going extremely well.

    322. yesindyref2 says:

      Ouch, that’s gotta hurt.

    323. Angra Mainyu says:

      yesindyref2, I have 35 Twitter accounts with a combined total of over 2.6 million followers.

      The only thing that hurts is the shallowness of people who think having large numbers of followers equates with importance or popularity.

      Anyway, Twitter serves a few purposes in SEO terms but the truth is I don’t like it except for pestering people…

      I prefer old style chat rooms and still use a couple of them sometimes. They’re better for debating as unlike on forums like this the debates are live… chancers get caught out very quickly in live debates.

      I could say more about Twitter and one or two people who use this forum, but sometimes it’s better to say nothing.

    324. HandandShrimp says:

      Despite initially denying it, you have now — thanks to my examination of your posts — admitted that you are actually in favour of Britain bombing the Middle East.

      It required no examination. I don’t think any other reader had any doubt about what my views on the topic of discussion (Syria, lest we forget) are. If you were confused and required clarification all you had to do was ask. It isn’t a bloody Dan Brown novel.

      Also, your analogy makes no sense. Allowing an axe killer into the playground is the original mistake, to say we got that wrong and therefore we should do nothing is the second mistake. Taking action and not allowing the said mad axe man into the playground is the corrective action.

      There are no easy answers in world politics but if the Peshmerga ask for our assistance and we refuse as we have refused or confounded them in the past I think they might consider our inaction reprehensible.

      Of course a settlement for the Palestinians would help the region but I am not optimistic. The Israelis will not go for a one state solution because that would create a state with an almost 50% Jewish 50% Palestinian population thereby deleting the founding concept of Jewish homeland. A two state solution is no longer practical because Israel has turned the West Bank into Swiss Cheese with settlements dotted all over it. They could be removed but I see no political will in Israel to do so.

    325. Angra Mainyu says:

      handandshrimp, since you seem to agree with everything I have said, there’s no point in haranguing.

      In my analogy, though, Britain and its unrelenting lust for bombing in the middle east was the axe man — you seem to think the axe man should be allowed back into the playground to defend the Kurds (by bombing, of course).

      I understand the mistaken sense of responsibility in your point; i.e. we broke it, so we should fix it. And the moral argument that the Kurds deserve help.

      The Peshmerga aren’t in a position to ask for help so I don’t know why you keep saying that — Peshmerga are military, not government.

    326. Will Podmore says:

      It beggars belief that Parliament is yet again contemplating killing people in a country thousands of miles away from us on the claim of self-defence. This claim only holds good if there is “a necessity of self defence, instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means and no moment for deliberation”. There must be a threat of an imminent armed attack. UK authorities recently said they had “no knowledge of any ‘imminent’ plot to attack British targets.” So the claim falls, so any British military intervention in Syria would be a breach of the UN Charter.
      Nor does UN Security Council Resolution 2249 of 27 November authorise us to intervene. As the website for the European Journal of International Law (EJIL) pointed out, “the resolution does not actually authorize any actions against IS, nor does it provide a legal basis for the use of force against IS either in Syria or in Iraq.”



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