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The magic number

Posted on June 15, 2015 by

For the last month or so, the Unionist parties have briefly enjoyed the opportunity to taunt the SNP in the Commons over Full Fiscal Autonomy, challenging the party to bring forward proposals and accusing it of being afraid of the policy it campaigned and won on in the election. The Nats called the bluff, and today got the unsurprising result.


The reason given by Secretary of State David Mundell – who declined to appear on today’s edition of “Good Morning Scotland” to defend or explain the decision – was that FFA “would cost every family in Scotland £5,000”.

And we thought that figure had a rather familiar ring to it.

The video above is a Labour election broadcast from 2007, which the Guardian reported at the time by saying “a panic-stricken Labour Party will deliver its most negative attack yet on the Scottish National Party tomorrow in a television broadcast that paints a doomsday scenario if Alex Salmond wins power in next month’s Scottish parliamentary election”.

It’s a fair summary, as you’ll see when you watch the clip. Indeed, it may be something of an understatement. (Readers may also be amused in passing to note from the Guardian story that the video was revealed to feature senior Labour officials in the role of “ordinary members of the public”, later made famous by Clare Lally.)

We don’t recall that £5000 tax bill coming to pass when the SNP did in fact win the election. But the apparent belief of all three Unionist parties in the mystical power of the number in tackling the Nats seems undiminished.

“Danny Alexander: SNP’s independence debt threat will add £5,000 to YOUR mortgage”

“With nearly 5,000 staff at its handsome sandstone offices around Edinburgh, the very suggestion that Standard Life might leave is enough to send shivers through the Scottish capital where it was founded 189 years ago.

“True cost of SNP cuts on NHS in Scotland revealed: 5000 jobs could go”

“The SNP’s plan for full fiscal autonomy puts the future of […] 5000 young Scots at risk”

 We look forward to the next outing, with only the slightest of yawns.

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  1. 15 06 15 13:25

    The magic number | Politics Scotland |

  2. 15 06 15 22:24

    This dysfunctional UK “family of nations” ! | the

203 to “The magic number”

  1. frankieboy says:

    Here’s the BBC news.
    Too wee, too poor, too stupid.
    Royal baby
    Now the weather

  2. Meindevon says:

    Shameful of Mundell not to appear to back up their decision.

    Says it all really.

  3. The Man in the Jar says:

    Same shit, different day!

    (And yes yawning is “infectious”)

  4. Johnny says:

    Couple of things leap out from that 2007 vid.

    Notable that they were already targeting mainly those people who ‘choose to work’, etc.

    Moreover, I wonder how many people are a lot more than £5000 a year worse off (or at least were, for a bit) as a result of their lax policies on banks helping to cause the crash just a year later? It’s all so disingenous I feel a bit sick.

  5. Joemcg says:

    Must be some serious cooking of the books in WM going on as they are guarding them like a junkie protecting his last fix.

  6. Dr Jim says:

    Nothing like “New Information” to focus the mind

    And once again they trot out a new and improved version of the same ( insert own word here )

  7. handclapping says:

    I’m sure Fluffy didn’t appear because BBC Scotland couldn’t guarantee that the connection wouldn’t “break up” during the interview as he has so often seen happen with SNP representatives.

    He is not feart; its only that the last SoS hasn’t returned the Scottish Office Emergency Teddy Bear yet.

  8. CyberMidgie says:

    Sometimes I get confused about whether I’m watching a party political broadcast or Sesame Street.

    “Today, we’re going to learn about the number 5000…” [cue music] “…5000 more nurses than the SNP…” [happy actors and actresses dancing in NHS uniforms] “…vote Big Bird for a better Scotland…”

    Oops, sorry, that was when they taught us about the number 1000. My mistake.

  9. Mosstrooper says:

    How very strange…well kinda strange… really no a that strange.. actually par for the course. So, business as usual then.

    Would you like more fear wi that?

  10. Grouse Beater says:

    The basis of all black propaganda is that the population forget what was said on the issue last time.

  11. muttley79 says:

    It is a sad consequence of the No vote that a single jackass Tory MP in Scotland is able to tell the elected Scottish government and voters that we should shut up. What on earth do he and Tomkins think they are going to achieve by their arrogance and disdain for Scottish self government?

  12. MajorBloodnok says:

    So, “I would tell 5,000 lies and I would tell 5,000 more” is clearly the Unionists’ theme song.

  13. steveasaneilean says:

    We’ll let slip their patronising “every family” and give them the benefit of the doubt and talk about households instead.

    There are 2.4 million of them in Scotland. If we multiply £5000 by 2.4 million we come to £12 billion but I thought it was supposed to be a £7 billion black hole?

    Could this £5000 figure be unreliable do you think? Did it come form the dark vaults of the ORB be be trotted out but its Scottish Secretary of State mouthpiece?

  14. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    5000. An interesting numerical choice. Did they take the number of paid up Labour members at that point?

  15. galamcennalath says:

    Slow learners, eh? Lies and scaremongering didn’t work in 2007, and they are still at it!

    Shows just how far back the Unionists had so little to challenge the SNP with, how long this has all been going on.

    [ it can be claimed that lies and scraremongering won the referendum. Did it? BT did manage to slash their own lead by, what, 20% ]

  16. Gordon Hay says:

    There’s definitely something to that number, Google “Scotland”+”5000” and you get 38.6 million results!

  17. Robert Louis says:

    Is this project fear 3??

    Seriously, here we have a single Tory MP, with a wafer thin majority, telling the people of Scotland, the SNP Scottish Government and its 56 elected MP’s in Westminster, that despite their CLEAR democratic mandate for FFA, and the promises made by David Cameron as Prime minister on 18th September 2014, that Scotland will not BE ALLOWED to control its own finances.

    It is colonialism, pure and simple, and Mundell is acting like a 19th century viceroy general. He is a nobody, absuing the very concept of democracy. In ANY other country, he and his ilk would be (literally) run out of town, at the very least.

    Time for indy referendum 2. Let’s stop p*ssing around wasting our time over the joke pretendy powers in the comical Smith report.

  18. think again says:

    Every family will be £5000.00 worse off. That must mean UKOK supports us by that amount.

    Why not let us have FFA and give every family in Scotland £4000.00? That will teach us a lesson and save the rest of the UK £1000.00.

    What could I possibly be missing here?

  19. Macart says:

    Groundhog day. 😮

  20. PRJ says:

    The one thing that strikes me is the threats in the reverse will probably be true. X amount being removed from the UK (English) economy after independence will have a devastating affect on the deficit and balance of payments for the Ruk, also reducing the GDP. The cumulative affect of this is higher taxes and interest payments. I do believe that the government already knows this and are using this analysis against the Scots, thereby not strictly lying. This is why AS proposed a shared currency to avoid this scenario.

  21. No no no...Yes says:

    The Tory Government would not make very good poker players. Their latest antic was completely predictable and the original SNP plan of proving competence step by step then seeking a referendum is now actually on a much quicker route to independence.

    The Tories policies and arrogance towards Scotland will be the final chapter of this failed Union. Prof Tomkins on the BBC Scotland Sunday Politics gave the game away for me. Apart from being economic with facts, his advisory role to the Tories is that Scotland will get nothing that affects the Union, with an emphasis on respecting the outcome of the Indy Ref. He fails to acknowledge the GE result- Big Fail.

    Labour and Libs are now irrelevant in Scotland

    There will be a majority of people in Scotland ready to support another Indyref in the SNP manifesto in 2016.

  22. Connor McEwen says:

    The Alexander Brothers have a song with the words.

    “There’s no ring of shining gold
    so strong that it can hold
    a heart, when it longs to be Free ee ee”

    Take a shufty at;

  23. EphemeralDeception says:

    Unsurprisingly the headline isn’t biased the other way: “Tories to reject Scottish Governments full fiscal autonomy plan”.

    Probably should send a complaint, but that’s just pissing against the wind.

  24. Robert Kerr says:

    @No no no…Yes

    You forget that Scotland is not a country but is only a grouping of constituencies returning some of the MPs to Westminster. The Tories have an absolute majority there.

    What don’t you understand about democracy?

    anger is rising!

  25. Anagach says:

    Todays “Call Labour Kaye” is focusing on people deprived of seeing their dying relatives because the SNP cancelled hospital parking charges…I kid you not.

  26. heedtracker says:

    “The government will not accept amendments that are not good for Scotland. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has estimated that fiscal autonomy would mean Scotland having almost £10bn less to spend by the last year of this parliament.”

    Says BBC, Fluffy and the IFS. If the IFS had any moral core they’d give a whole spectrum of oil prices but that’s not their purpose. Another bunch of bettertogether gits desperately holding back Scotland, shock.

    And SLab want a Constitutional Convention to examine greater devolution to all parts of the UK. Do they fcuk.

  27. Keith Hynd says:

    What I’d like to know is how much worse off are we within the established UK’s FFA ? Lets say since 2008 as since that time the three so called “main unionist” parties have all had a hand in UK government!
    The other problem I find with these figures is, no matter who or what body produces these figures, the OBR or IFS et al they always seem to base their figures on how things are done now! And the point is that, things wouldn’t be dealt with in the same way, the word “autonomy” sort of gives us a clue to that, of course I am giving the UK gov credit here in actually having a clue, which I doubt.

  28. Bob Mack says:

    It really is beginning to play out in public now..They push us to accept FFA, we accept and now they try to save us from ourselves by denying us the opportunity.
    If the Scottish public are watching all of this, the message must surely be hitting home.They need us more than they care to tell..
    Today the hypocrites stand at Runnymede celebrating the Magna Carta and the introduction of Democracy and justice..
    Today Scotland is made aware of the defecit of democracy and justice in our part of these islands. We are nothing more than inhabitants of one of their colonies.Liberty and justice is only for England,not for the Scots.Time for us to be rid of these parasites.

  29. Luigi says:

    It’s bloody frustrating, but this nonsense has to be played put folks, and the SNP are playing a blinder, completely outflanking the unionists who are reacting as predictably as ever. The election of 56 SNP MPs was a clear message of intent from the people of Scotland:

    “FFA or we are off (sooner or later)”

    After a near wipe-out last month, you would think at least some members of the Labour party would at last see the writing on the wall. But no, “SNP bad, FFA bad” continues to be their narrative, despite it almost destroying them in May. Well, red tories, be ready for another message from the people in 2016. The people are speaking, and they will be listened to.

  30. Graeme Doig says:

    Why have I just heard John Swinney on RS news giving credence to this ridiculous figure?

    Can’t see how he could have been quote out of contested.

  31. Joe says:

    Poor Fluffy is going to be beaten over the head with this one for the foreseeable future.

  32. Marie clark says:

    I find myself feeling worried this morning. For once I actually agree with the gorgeous one, I think Scotland will become independent within the next five years.

    Can’t believe I just said that, now you see why I feel worried. Not about indie in the next 5 years, bring it on, but agreeing with the gorgeous ! Help.

  33. Luigi says:

    Anagach says:

    15 June, 2015 at 11:09 am

    Todays “Call Labour Kaye” is focusing on people deprived of seeing their dying relatives because the SNP cancelled hospital parking charges…I kid you not.

    It’s not even bottom of the barrel scrapping now – they used that up long ago. What we are getting now is the dirt underneath the bottom of the barrel.

  34. Luigi says:

    heedtracker says:

    15 June, 2015 at 11:15 am

    If the IFS had any moral core they’d give a whole spectrum of oil prices but that’s not their purpose.

    Some of them may have a residual moral core, but the union core trumps all. Justifies everything – always has done.

  35. Helena Brown says:

    Oh for heaven’s sake don’t they have any other stuff. I do hope that if we have another Referendum we take the boxing gloves off and get into bare fist fighting.
    We need to remind the population that the opposition are a bunch of liars and they never change.

  36. IvMoz says:

    I fully expect the Unionists to state that the 5000 can be fed on 5 loaves & 2 fish.

  37. Onwards says:

    So the Tories are rejecting FFA out of ‘concern’ for Scotland.

    I’ve always thought that they actually WANT Scotland to be subsidised, or at least appear to be subsidised, because it will reduce the desire for independence.

    Scotland will never be allowed to compete effectively with London. If Scotland became the strongest part of the UK economy, independence wouldn’t exactly be a hard sell.

    It’s the same reason why we never allocated a share of North sea revenues to set up an oil fund.

  38. Robert Peffers says:

    These Establishment, “official statistics”, are not party specific.

    All Establishment organs use them, whether the users be Government, Opposition, Party, Civil Service, Commons, Lords, State Broadcaster, dead-tree-press, pseudo-independent think tanks, Established Churches or just your common, or garden, individual Unionist numptie hacks.

    They all have the strange, and utterly brainless habit, of picking totally ridiculous figures from some dank, dark, evil smelling orifice and presenting them as God’s own guaranteed accurate figures. They never actually show the statistics, methodology, arithmetical workings nor-the origins of the basic figures.

    If ever challenged, as Mundell has been, they are always far too busy, (They are after all very important persons), to explain themselves to we mere common members of the great unwashed public. We are expected to know our place and accept what our betters tell us is true and in our own best interests.

    I thus have only one thing to say to Mundell, his Conservative & Unionist Party, The houses of Parliament, (both Commons and Lords), the rest of the Establishment and even her Majesty and assorted aristocracy.


  39. Giving Goose says:

    5000 lies.
    Sit back and wait for the next 5000.
    Which will be the previous 5000 recycled.

  40. The Man in the Jar says:

    I wonder how many people watching that video from 2007 today are thinking.

    “I wish… I wish I could earn enough to have to pay £5,000 tax in the first place”

  41. John Kerr says:

    What’s another £5000, when every man woman and child is now in debt to the tune of £23000 if we divvy up the National Debt? That rises to £77000 if we add in the pension burden/commitment. Since most of us don’t know we are in debt at all and feel that the National Debt is someone elses problem, why not just add another £5000 – or whatever scary number they wish to come up with – and let us go and start doing things our own way.
    The sooner we are independent, the sooner we can start dealing with our own problems and I’m fed up being told that as a Scot I’m too stupid to run my own financial affairs successfully. We sure can’t do any worse than Westminster, just as long as we keep SLAB away from the finances.

  42. perfidious brown stuff says:

    Every day this Country feels more and more like a colony. Independence from the Perfidious Brit-State aka Westminster cannot come soon enough. People who voted NO were warned if you vote NO you will get NO-thing from the Brit State and so it has come to past. Open your eyes and see it for what it is…another betrayal. Time for a second referendum infact i would even go so far as to suggest UDI and pull the rug from under the Brit States feet.

  43. defo says:

    MMMMatheson up for Slab leadership.

    “I offer the distinct combination of experience and change. I have successfully led Scotland’s largest city for over five years. But because I’m not an MSP I offer a fresh perspective on the national political scene.”

  44. Anne Bruce says:

    As a poster above said: Same shit, a different day.

    Oh so sick of this game playing with our people’s lives.

    I said AYE and I still say AYE no matter what crap comes Scotland’s way. Stick that up your rear ends Cameron/Mundell/Osborne/Murray et al. Piss artists – ‘scuse my language.

    O/T – anybody got their Wee Blue Book yet? I’m worried mine is lost in the post.

  45. Dr Ew says:

    The contortions of the UK establishment in recent years have been an education. Although a supporter of independence for over 10 years now, I used to believe there was an honourable counter-argument for the Union. By the 2010 election I was seriously doubting that idea had any credibility but tempered my thoughts on the basis perhaps I was becoming more partisan and struggling to see the other side of the debate.

    No longer. Probably the SNP and wider Independence Movement’s greatest achievement has been to torpedo massive great holes in the hull of the Good Ship Britannia. The reason for the watershed last month is this realisation reaching critical mass, and no one – not one of our elected politicians, not one journalist, historian or academic – has been able to mount a positive, coherent case for Scotland remaining in the Union.

    The Union is exposed for the hollow construct it is, an imperium designed to protect and preserve an elite, nothing more.

    There’s still a lot of work for us to do to build an even broader, more inclusive and more democratic movement, but the direction of travel is clear and, most importantly, we’re up for doing the job. Alba gu bràth.

  46. Dr Jim says:

    Picked up my pension on Friday there but I just don’t know how to spend it
    Should I buy food, pay some bills,give some away,
    I just haven’t got a clue

    Any Tories out there willing to give me a hand or advice on how income works

    Yours most humbly and respectfully

    A grown man

  47. Les wilson says:

    Yes, folks we are in yet another propaganda war with Westminster and all of it’s proxies, and I include labour in that decrepit bunch.

    The trouble for them is, we have seen and heard how they work before, we are becoming immune to their black arts.
    They will soon have to come out with more odious plans, as the old ones do not work, be prepared for anything.

  48. MJack says:

    Surely FFA will be good for England, each household in England, going by Fluffies analysis, will save £522 and we get to control almost everything, doesn’t sound too bad for England unless the 12 billion black hole is a lot of nonsense and Scotland is actually supporting rUK.

    (12billion / 23,000 households in England)

    But I just can’t get my head around the benevolence of Westminster that they don’t want Scotland to be worse off and so they’ll keep control of the purse strings, such spiffing chaps!

  49. HandandShrimp says:

    Are they rejecting Edward Leigh’s FFA amendment too?

  50. mike cassidy says:

    I know why Mundell is so busy.

    I emailed the Scottish Office asking whether the The Leaked Memorandum Report was available – and if not, why not.

    After a week – and a reminder – I was told on 5th June.

    “I passed your query to a colleague who contacted the Cabinet Office to find out if the full report is available. We are still waiting for a response, once we hear back I will let you know.”

    I am still waiting – presumably to allow Mundell to decide whether I should have to wait 5000 days, weeks or years.

  51. call me dave says:

    Jim Murphy says election was like a ‘quasi-religious rock concert’

    Former Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy has likened the SNP’s general election campaign to “a quasi-religious rock concert”.

    Mr Murphy also hit out at what he said was a “post truth” atmosphere in politics north of the border.

    During the televised Scottish leaders’ debates, he said, he felt that “no matter what truth you told it didn’t really matter in a post-truth type of argument”.

    His comments came just hours before he was due to give a speech to a think tank in London.

    Mr Murphy resigned in the wake of Labour’s disastrous election performance in Scotland.

    The party lost all but one of the 41 seats it had taken in 2010, while the SNP surged from 6 seats to 56.

    Speaking on the BBC’s Today programme, Mr Murphy said that the election marked his party’s “biggest defeat”.

    “It is a bigger defeat in Scotland than Mrs Thatcher’s victory was across the UK for the British party,” he said.

    “But, I don’t want my colleagues in the British party in the UK leadership contest to think that this is just a Scottish problem.

    “Our demise in England… isn’t trivial, it isn’t superficial, it is deep,” he added.

    On the SNP and their supporters, he said: “When I was doing those TV debates it sometimes felt like I was up against a quasi-religious rock concert, where no matter what truth you told it didn’t really matter in a post-truth type of argument in the politics.”

    Jim’s like those Jehova’s witness people at the door always getting ready to leave but never quite doing it …but eventually it will happen…soon…maybe this afternoon…perhaps!

    What’s the difference between a lada and a Jev Witness?

    Easier to shut the door on the lada.

    Now I have friends who are JW and I have owned two lada’s in my younger days, and it’s true. 🙂

  52. Alastair says:

    Outlaw media bios.
    The problem is that accountability of BBC Scotland is not a devolved matter.
    Scottish Government should introduce a Scots Law making it illegal for a “state” (only) broadcaster or media to be politically bios i.e. BBC in all its guises. TV, Radio, no line.

    Issue rules and guidelines to support the law.
    That way they could under Scots Law hold them to account out-with political accountability to Westminster.

  53. bjsalba says:

    Does anyone listen to Call Kaye these days?

    Does anybody call in?

    Havent listened or called since November 2013 so I’m out of touch.

  54. Sue Varley says:

    Bob Mack: liberty and justice are no more for the ordinary folk of England than they are for the people of Scotland. All this Magna Carta stuff is just another distraction, looking back down the centuries because the UK has no future to offer the citizens of any of its four nations. It’s an attempt at bread and circuses, but will be largely ignored except by the establishment and its lackies.

    Magna Carta got some power from the king for the barons, it didn’t do anything for the serfs. Yes it was a step forward for its time, but liberty and justice for the commoners, it was not.

  55. jackie g says:

    Turned on Reprting Scotland (BBC)this morning briefly to catch time and see what was said about FFA announcment.

    Unsuprisingly it was second on the list? first was Network rail and the ongoing tunnel work which distrupted things over the weekend, then a picture of JS and then back to the fitba not really surprising i know!

    Now the BBC is giving prominece to the ongoing panto that is SLab FFS!

    Glasgow Council leader Matheson joins Scottish deputy Labour leader contest 🙁

    Jesus Wept.

  56. Kevin evans says:

    And they said there is no veto

  57. velofello says:

    He who pays the piper calls the tune: OBR and IFS are state funded. The current projection of oil & gas down to £2bn is silly and a sign of desperate response by the UK state to the changes that are developing.

    SNP MPs Sheppard and Kerevan being selectively misquoted by OUR Prime Minister.Oops, we have social media up here, and the National newspaper, and so the pair are able to detail out for us just exactly what they said, and so reveal Cameron’s character.

    The SNP couldn’t have improved upon the Scotland Office opposition they face if they had been allowed to pick them. Mundell and Tomkins, what a lineup! Mutterer and Stutterer.

    Yes, Scotland Office opposition!

  58. Dave Hansell says:

    Time to do an Ian Smith.

  59. Papadox says:

    To Fluffy: please remember Fluffy when your daft you are the last one to find out!

  60. The Rough Bounds says:

    Yes, I remember those Labour Party billboards that they put everywhere telling the Scots that we were all going to be £5,000 less well off each year if the SNP won in 2007.

    Lies don’t alter with time.

    I had wondered what the Latin numerals were for 5,000 because it would have made a joke if it was MMMMM! But apparently it’s just a V with a horizontal bar over the top.

    The V does look a bit like two fingers though doesn’t it?
    Is that what they are really saying to us?

  61. G H Graham says:

    The good news is that it is quite normal now for anyone to also reject the BBC’s propaganda as well as that published by the UK Government. While we can only vote every 5 yrs or so, we can however take immediate action with regards to the BBC by invoking one’s statutory rights by cancelling the contract for TV License.

    You can exercise further rights in Scotland by pointing out to the goons who are contracted by BBC’s TV Licensing Authority to hound people for money at their doorstep, that their right of access to your property is withdrawn.

    Whether the property is rented or owned is irrelevant & whether that right of access is implied or express is immaterial.

    So, unless there is a warrant issued by a court (which can only be issued on the basis of evidence provided to the court), one’s right to withdraw that access is absolute.

    The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, Part 1, Chapter 2, Section 6, Subsection 1, defines where access rights are not exercisable …

    (1) The land in respect of which access rights are not exercisable is land –
    (a) to the extent that there is on it –
    ………(i) a building or other structure or works, plant or fixed machinery;
    ………(ii) a caravan, tent or other place affording a person privacy or shelter;

    (b) which –
    ………(ii) forms a compound or other enclosure containing any such structure, works, plant or fixed machinery as is referred to in paragraph (a)(i) above;
    ………(iv) comprises, in relation to a house or any of the places mentioned in paragraph (a)(ii) above, sufficient adjacent land to enable persons living there to have reasonable measures of privacy in that house or place and to ensure that their enjoyment of that house or place is not unreasonably disturbed;

    There exists no legal requirement upon a resident to provide their name to TV Licensing when exercising their rights to withdraw a right of access.

    Thus, a response from TV Licensing such as, “… we can’t accept an anonymous withdrawal of a right of access to a property…” is no more valid than writing to or talking to a legal occupier of a property whose name you do not know, in order to seek a contract with them or to gain entry to a legal occupier’s household.

    If they insist on hounding & harassing a resident on their property, one has rights described in the Criminal Justice & Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010, part 2, Section 38.

    Under that provision, you can invite the police to confirm that a breach of the peace has been committed. This is a criminal offence. The penalty if prosecuted, may be financial and/or custodial, limited only by the Courts discretion.

    It’s time to stop being brainwashed by this corrupt British Establishment.

  62. ScottieDog says:

    And of course the earth is 5000 years old and flat..

  63. ArtyHetty says:

    5000, what a number eh. I just googled it, of course one of the main symbolic themes of the bible, the feeding of the 5000, I am not religious at all btw, so it means nowt to me but could have a subliminal effect I guess for some, with 5000 quid to lose, via taxes or savings, or just imaginery.

    Maybe 3000 would just seem that bit more worth the risk, to have control of your own purse strings and resources.

    What I could do with 5000 quid if I had it in the first place, nothing to lose for many but all to lose with wm bleeding us dry.

  64. gus1940 says:

    Why is it that every time any Project Fear fans whether politiciian or ‘journalist’ starts banging on abou the great FFA Black Hole they always go on about having to raise taxes or make cuts – but never mention borrowing.

    Now, sit back and try to imagine what taxes would have risen by and/or what cuts would have been made by WM since the crash if they hadn’t been able to borrow countless billions (and still borrowing counless billion every year and for years to come)increasing The National Debt to £1.5Trillion and the rest.

    Another great interview of Eck on Daily Politics. Jo Coburn came up with all the old chestnuts re FFA to be shot down in flames by Eck with one hand tied behing his back.

    It was interesting to see how she interrupted to save the Tory from having to give an answer when Eck kept asking him why Purdah was OK pre GE but not OK pre EU Referendum.

  65. Luigi says:

    The UK national debt is growing at £5000 (plus) per second:

  66. bookie from hell says:

    Ian Murray nominates Jeremy Corbyn

    morningside will be delighted

    ( : > )

  67. Marie clark says:

    Going over to Moffat tomorrow. I hope I don’t meet wee fluffy, or he will not like what I have to say to him. Nyaff.

    I agree with Helena Brown at 11.30, let’s get the gloves off next ref and always remind people that the unionists are total liars.

    Regards Jim Murphy saying ” no matter what truth you told it didn’t matter”. Aye right Jim, did you at any point ever tell the truth. No didn’t think so. Bye bye, don’t hurry back.

    Some of us were intelligent enough to know that the vow and all their promises were pish. Some folk were feart and decided to give them the benefit of the doubt, more fool them. Some are just dyed in the wool nawbags, not much you can do about them. All the shenanigans going on at Westminster should open the eyes of the folk who gave them the benefit of the doubt, hopefully we can convince them to take the leap to independence with the rest of us, and break away from this corrupt bunch of chancers.

    But, do you know what really gets my goat? The likes of that balloon Tomkins and that ilk. It’s the ” you lost the referendum, get over it and move on”. Well ya numpty, we have moved on, it’s you who haven’t. We are now playing a different game, you just don’t realise it yet.

    As for Matheson throwing his hat in the ring. Christ on a bike! Words fail me. They will never learn.

    As I said in my earlier post, I have to agree with the gorgeus , we will be independent within five years. The union is dead. A rotting corpse, beginning to stink, and they killed it all by themselves.

  68. Christian Schmidt says:

    Interesting reasoning though – it is not about the English or the Union, rejecting FFA is just based on doing something god for the Scots.

    But what if the Scots vote for it? What if the SNP goes into next year’s election with the slogan ‘Give us FFA or we’ll stage a second referendum’ and win?

    As I think most of have thought before, with enemies like that…

  69. Ken500 says:

    Most folk would pay more to live in an Independent Scotland. Raise higher rate of tax. Land tax. Cut Trident/illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud.

    In 2010 in the UK £600Billion was raised in tax. Now £466Billion is raised in tax revenues. A fall of £134Billon.

  70. Luigi says:

    jackie g says:

    15 June, 2015 at 12:10 pm

    Glasgow Council leader Matheson joins Scottish deputy Labour leader contest 🙁

    🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

  71. Rob James says:

    I am becoming increasingly anxious about the rapid acceleration of the black hole. From an initial quotation of 7.5billion, it sneaked up to 7.6. Within a few days it has leapt to ten billion and now we hear figures of 12 billion. By the end of the month the solar system will have been sucked in.

  72. Democracy Reborn says:

    “SNP Triple Whammy!:-

    1. £5000 increase to your tax bill!
    2. £5000 increase to your mortgage!
    3. 5000 jobs to go!”

    (Repeat ad nauseum…)

    3 questions for our unionist super-economists:-

    1. How much North Sea oil tax revenue has been accrued by the UK treasury since 1979
    2. How much of that revenue has been directly invested in a sovereign wealth fund
    3. What did the OBR “forecast” for UK growth between 2010-15; and what was the *actual* growth?

  73. jackie g says:


    I know i put the wrong wee smilie thing it should have been


    I also should have added get the popcorn ready the fireworks are about to begin


  74. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 15 June, 2015 at 11:15 am:

    ” … BBC, Fluffy and the IFS. If the IFS had any moral core they’d give a whole spectrum of oil prices but that’s not their purpose.”

    Err! Whoa! Heedtracker, have you not seen through all this guff even yet? I’ve highlighted it several times but it doesn’t seem to have registered yet so I’ll try again.

    Scotland doesn’t directly get any of that oil revenue. Every penny is recorded in The United Kingdom. PLC,(a.k.a. The de facto parliament of England’s),books as revenue earned from Extra-Regio Territories and every penny goes into the United Kingdom, (a.k.a. the de facto parliament of England), Treasury.

    Then Scottish funding – all of it – is set by the use of the Barnett Formula and the figures chosen to set the Block Grants for the devolved countries is by the UK government, (a.k.a. The de facto parliament of England).

    If the oil & gas revenues move up or down makes no difference to Scottish funding it only affects the revenue directly paid into the UK treasury from Extra-Regio Territories.

    It is only when the ONS, (Office of National Statistics), is assessing the Scottish GDP that they credit the Scots with having earned an assessed, population based, 8.4% share of the oil & gas revenues. That is not an assessment of what we get but for what they choose to assess us as having earned.

    So not only are around 95% of the oil & gas revenues earned from Scottish territory but the assessed value is set on a per capita rather than geographic figure but we don’t actually get the assessed sum anyway.

    I’ll put that another way –

    When dealing with the actual oil & gas revenues it is 100% UK Revenue.

    When fiddling the books they assess 8.4% of it as Scottish earned and thus 91.6% of it is assessed as English earned.

    Here though are the actual relevant facts from their own figures. The per capita GDP of Scotland is higher than the per capita GDP of the UK, (and remember that Scotland is included in the UK GDP figures.)

    It is all a con-job as the oil & gas revenues do not affect the present Scottish Block Grant and if we had FFA we would get all the 95% of the present figures quoted as being from, “Extra Regio Territory while Westminster would get just 5% of it.

    So ask yourself why they are on about Scotland losing £5,000 due to the low price of oil at the moment. For crying out loud we don’t get any oil money, and they even claim that they pay Scots extra per capita funds when the truth is that extra funding is to cover the costs of running the extra functions they have devolved to Scotland already.

  75. gus1940 says:

    After his earlier SNP/Nazi ravings mentioned above our old pals the BBC have got Stark Raving Bonkers Starkey on the 1pm news commenting on Magna Carta.

  76. heedtracker says:

    Catch up with Salmond on BBC 2 Politics show today, usual smirky weak attack from BBC shill Andrew Neil side kick/Coburn on FFA timetable, you wanted it all within 18 months of YES etc but it gets better on pre EU ref purda.

    Salmond explains clearly how shat all over their own Scottish referendum purda ruling but cant do it again with the EU, tory boy MP guest steps in to sort out Salmond. Salmond asks smirky tory boy “why did break own purda rules in Scots ref?” so in steps BBC shill and totally protects stuffed shirt tory boy from Salmond with her usual attack questions.

    Same shit, different UKOK day at the BBC.

  77. Scunterbunnet says:

    Smart move by Matheson. He can jump the GCC ship before BLab get wiped out there in 2017, fail to get elected as a list MSP… and still get a Deputy Branch Manager’s salary by recorded delivery from London in a broon envelope.

  78. Ken500 says:

    Scotland (9%) raises £54Billion in taxes. Less (pro rata) is raised in the rest of the UK. Total taxes raised in the UK £466Billion. Any debt in Scotland has been caused by Westminster economic mismanagement.

    Scotland gets £35Billion block grant, £16Billion (UK) pensions/benefits, £3Billion Defence, but doesn’t decide how revenues are spent. Ie cut Trident and invest in the Clyde and Oil production in the West.

  79. John H. says:

    There have been a lot of good points made here this morning. I’d like to be able to contribute, but I think the great (expected) treachery has been pretty much covered by others. So I’m just sitting here quietly simmering, waiting for the announcement of the next ref.

  80. Dr Jim says:


    Somebody suggested before about a Christmas Annual
    What do you think of “The Bumper Book of Westminster Shite”

    Maybe without the sweary bit

  81. Ken500 says:

    In Germany (pop 80 million) €600Billion is raised in taxes. Tax threshold starts at €8,000 – €16,000 for a couple. Germany has a surplus.

  82. HandandShrimp says:

    In a world where there is nothing that can’t be construed as good news for the SNP the real winners of having Corbyn on the ballot paper is, you guessed it, the SNP.

    Corbyn’s anti-nuclear, anti-austerity, anti-deficit agenda slots perfectly into the SNP’s own platform.

    When, not if, the rank and file of the Labour party reject his prospectus the SNP will rejoice.

    Torquil’s take on the inclusion of Jeremy on the Labour slate for leader.

    It is a funny old world 🙂 It is hardly the SNP’s fault if Labour lurch to the right.

  83. John Dickson (@NkosiEcosse) says:

    I am £5000 worse off under Westminster rule as my salary has not increased since 2008. A 2.5% inflation increase would have given me a £5460 increase over that time period

  84. Brian Powell says:

    Starkey makes a statement and the Parts of the MSM discuss it and re-discuss it; so remote from reality now, like dots on the horizon.

  85. bookie from hell says:

    Rob James says:

    15 June, 2015 at 1:10 pm

    By the end of the month the solar system will have been sucked in.

    bfh–thx comment cheered me up ( : > )

  86. Stoker says:

    Glasgow City Councils Gordon Matheson is to stand for Slabber deputy branch manager position? Really?

    Would that be the very same odious wee cretinous OO agent who was once caught committing a sexual act on another man in public.

    He seems to be perfect Slabber management material.

    You can bet your last if he was SNP his past and support for hate-filled sectarian organisations would be getting splattered all over every single Unionist news outlet.

    Go Slabber Go, quickly appoint this odious wee sectarian agent.

    No more LibLabCons – Lets wipe them out!

  87. jackie g says:

    Stoker@ 1.47pm

    Yes Stoker it is indeed the same odious creep see below from the Scotsman.

    Friday 18 January 2013

    Glasgow council leader Gordon Matheson ‘back at his desk’ after apologising for ‘indecent act’

  88. HandandShrimp says:

    Gordon going in the huff because the option he favoured for the George Square makeover didn’t win and ditching all the options is a microcosm of all that went wrong with Labour.

    A step back into the comfort zone if they choose Gordon but should we complain?….I think not.

  89. Valerie says:

    I agree with scunterbunnet, Matheson is reading the runes, GCC are facing a new adminstration next year, so the rat is jumping ship. He has survived quite a few scandals, so he has that survival instinct.

    I will be so pleased to see that rotten borough get a new adminstration, and the poor folk of Glasgow get a fair deal after decades of meekly sitting there.

  90. Lesley-Anne says:

    I wouldn’t worry too much about Fluffy not appearing on GMS this morning folks, Monday mornings are the best time, apparently, for Fluffy to carry out his detailed pot hole research work. 😀

    The dear old BBC may claim that the Tories will reject the call for FFA for Scotland but I believe we have some unsuspected support … from the TORIES. I believe a certain Michael Forsyth and Sir Edward Leigh are two promenent Tories who both support FFA. If they support it then I am sure others may well support it also so maybe, just maybe, dear lod BBC are being a wee bit premature with this *ahem* claim. 🙂

  91. frances says:

    Of course Gordon Matheson has put his hat in the ring. Who else can the BBC turn to? He’s their man and they’ll support him 100% as they did Jim.

    They’re all in it together and it works really well for them!

  92. call me dave says:

    Seems that I Gray (He’s back- see Moodie in the National) is holding the jaickets until the election of the labour leader.

    Also Kezia brek has resigned as Deputy Dug (shame) as she’s standing for the leadership.

    Pity to lose her, hope it won’t happen.

    In the Record (won’t archive)

  93. Lesley-Anne says:

    Here is how Stewart Hosie reacted to Fluffy’s whisper last night. 😀

    And last night Hosie threatened to call a fresh independence referendum if the Scotland Bill wasn’t toughened.

  94. Les wilson says:

    I guess Matheson will be counting on the OO to help him sneak in,
    he is a little worm who has ran Glasgow as a boys club.
    The boys will need his backing whatever appointment he gets, unless of course he doesn’t.

  95. jackie g says:


    Yes you may have a point regarding support from other Tories.

    The BBC will backtrack again!

    Yesterday they were slabering about Education and how the SG did not promote enough diversity amoungst the Asian and black community by having any black or Asian head teachers.

    By 6pm yesterday oops they have found an Asian Headmaster did not say where just this.

    The BBC understands that there is at least one Asian head in Scotland.

    Jesus no wonder someone on Wings this morning said it was like being in an episode of sesame street. 😕

  96. Dr Jim says:

    More powers for Scotland the media keep banging on about
    We haven’t even had “The Powers” yet, you know the Smith ones
    they keep denying us

    You’ve got no oil they say, the oil price is bad they say,
    You can’t cope with oil prices this low they say

    We’ve never had the bloody use of the bloody oil whether good bad or bloody indifferent “I Say”

    The UK has had the oil and still does “I Say”

    Why keep attributing oil to Scotland as an asset we’ve never had “I Say”

    Perhaps if we did have control of the oil we might do something bloody constructive with it “I Say”

    Particular thanks to Robert Peffers for his continuing patience with the hordes of marauding Trolls on this matter

  97. Robert Peffers says:

    @Graeme Doig says: 15 June, 2015 at 11:23 am:

    “Why have I just heard John Swinney on RS news giving credence to this ridiculous figure?”

    Nothing strange, Graeme, John Swinney is speaking as an SG Minister and has to stick by the rules that he must use only official figures. Those official figures come from the, (Ahem!), impartial, “Office of National Statistics”.

    As I’ve pointed out in another post. The oil & gas revenues are actually quite irrelevant as Scotland’s only funding comes via the Scottish Block Grant and that depends upon the assessment made of the per capita value the English get from the UK Government Ministries.

    This is because the equivalent services those ministries provide, in only England, are now devolved to the Scottish Government and thus they must also devolve the cost of running the services. These are calculated by the Barnett Formula, which sets the level of the Scottish Block Grant.

    So here’s the con-job. They devolve both the function and the funding from the Ministry of a Westminster Parliament, (a.k.a. de facto England Parliament). Then they use the Barnett Formula to work out the level of the Block Grant using as a basis the value the English get from the UK Ministries. So what Scotland gets funded is based not upon what Scotland earns for the UK but on what the English get in value from the UK Ministries. (but they also cheat by funding lots of English stuff from other than the funding from the UK ministries).

    Now to the present scam. Scotland’s oil & gas revenues is collected directly by the Treasury as coming 100% from, “Extra-Regio Territory”, as UK earned revenue but 95% of it comes from Scottish Territory and none of it is actually allocated directly to the UK countries.

    Then they do the books and they assess how those Oil & gas revenues are split-up as to which country earns what share of the revenue. However, there is no actual elected parliament of the country of England and Westminster is thus the de facto parliament of England, (the country), but, “The Kingdom of England”, actually contains three countries and thus the, “English Crown Estates”, also includes Wales & N. Ireland’s territorial waters.

    So instead of saying that 95% of the oil & gas comes from the Kingdom of Scotland’s waters and 5% from the Kingdom of England’s waters they assess the shares on population, not geographic, terms and credit Scotland with earning just 8.4% of the total revenues.

    So, although we actually get nothing by way of oil & gas revenue, we are only credited with having earned a population based 8.4% of it for statistical reasons. Now they can choose what figure best shows Scotland in a bad light.

    So the simple fact is that no oil & gas money actually comes directly to Scotland so the question we must ask ourselves is this, “How can Scotland be £5,000 worse off due to lower oil & gas revenues when our present income is not dependent upon the revenues earned for the treasury by oil & gas revenue”?

    This is supplemented by the obvious fact that if the before assessment is based upon an assessed Scottish share of only 8.4% of the revenue from oil & gas then an independent Scottish share of the oil & gas would by based upon a 95% share of the present actual Extra-Regio Territory figure and that would be a massive gain in Scottish revenue. Especially as the ONS per capita GDP of Scotland is higher than the per capita GDP of both England and The UK.

    So in answer to your question, John Swinney knows the truth but must only use official UK Government figures.
    Believe me, Graeme, it is easier to understand once you get your head round the scam than it is to try describing it on paper/screen to others.

  98. James Barr Gardner says:

    Matheson for deputy liebore leader, apart from murky meetings this is the guy who came across as clown when representing Scotland at the Commonwealth Games. Not forgetting his stunt to blow up the Red Road High Flats, what a dud! He was also involved with Spud Murphy in the so called chaos of Glasgow riot, what a fud! Do they really think Scots folk forget that easily, well we don’t and we are watching every move made by these troughers. Glasgow city council needs rooted out, Glasgow folk deserve much better than this load of crap, let Glasgow flourish.

  99. heedtracker says:

    Poor old Jim gets lovely send off from rancid The Graun. I have no idea what he’s talking about but that’s normal

    He likened the atmosphere in the TV debates in Scotland to a “quasi-religious rock concert so whatever truth you told it did not really matter”. He said it felt like a kind of post-truth politics.


    Later, giving a speech at the Policy Exchange thinktank, Murphy offered a very personal reflection on the consequences of the party’s Blairite/Brownite split.
    Describing it as a “self-indulgent and self-destructive struggle”, he said:


    Murphy insisted: “The path to victory in middle England runs right through the heart of central Scotland”.

    Farewell Jim “whatever truth” Morphy, you really were a Titanic Captain.

    My local Kwikfit’s advertising for a p/t cleaner Jim. No experience necessary, must be a good time keeper.

  100. donald anderson says:

    The wumman oan the Old Brillo Pad show was going bananas when Alex Salmond dared to answer her most accusatory questions. You could see her earpiece burning with the producer in flames at Eck answering her back on the Andrew Neil show.

  101. Stoker says:

    jackie g wrote:
    “Yes Stoker it is indeed the same odious creep…”

    Aye, jackie, and he came up smelling of roses.

    Now, before any halfwitted troll attempts to twist this into something its not let me clarify my position on this.

    I could not care less what 2 or more consenting adults do with each other in the privacy of their own homes, just as long as it does not involve children, animals or rape.

    The fact that he clearly broke the law and got away with it raises serious questions.

    Had i been caught in a similar situation with a woman i would have automatically been put on the sex offenders register and most probably would also have been given a stint in jail.

    I am no prude, by any stretches of the imagination, but the law is the law and it should apply to all citizens, regardless of social status, sexuality or organisations attended etc etc etc.

    Then there is his support for sectarian organisations.
    In just a few years i reckon he has singlehandedly done more than any other person to keep the flame of sectarian hatred alive and well in Scotland’s largest city.

    During his reign as GCC Leader there have been far more sectarian events sanctioned in a beautiful city already blighted by sectarian bigotry and hatred.

    Slabber, imo, will avoid this cretin like the plague. Then again, it’s Slabber we’re talking about, DimJim & Deputy Dug anyone!

  102. galamcennalath says:

    Lesley-Anne says:
    “And last night Hosie threatened to call a fresh independence referendum if the Scotland Bill wasn’t toughened.”

    I was very glad to hear that.

    The Union win in September may, or may not, have been achieved with the DevoMax / FFA / Home Rule / Federalism / Super Duper powers promises. However that was the card the Unionists played. The ‘game’ changed to independence versus their amazing offers.

    Now they need to be told in no uncertain terms that if they don’t deliver, we need a rematch!

    And, of course, they never had any intentions of delivering!

  103. Karmanaut says:

    So our colonial masters have rejected Scotland’s democratic choice.

    Indyref 2, please.


  104. Luigi says:

    galamcennalath says:

    15 June, 2015 at 3:01 pm

    Lesley-Anne says:
    “And last night Hosie threatened to call a fresh independence referendum if the Scotland Bill wasn’t toughened.”

    I was very glad to hear that.

    The Union win in September may, or may not, have been achieved with the DevoMax / FFA / Home Rule / Federalism / Super Duper powers promises. However that was the card the Unionists played. The ‘game’ changed to independence versus their amazing offers.

    Now they need to be told in no uncertain terms that if they don’t deliver, we need a rematch!

    And, of course, they never had any intentions of delivering!

    Agreed. We have to be careful though not to get trapped into running another referendum before we are at least 60% sure of winning. If we narrowly lose the next one (say 49% YES), WM will not hesitate to legislate to prevent a third referendum for at least another 20 years, on the grounds that the nats had two shots at it already and it is destabilising the country. The majority of the UK would support them in this. The reason WM is not ruling out a second ref (much as they would like to) is because of the Vow and their breach of purda – they know they are very shaky ground as things stand.

    I would rather wait a few years to make sure we win convincingly. I don’t want to live the rest of my life in a unionist dark age.

  105. Petra says:

    Prior to the Referendum we were promised Home Rule, DevoMax or close to Federalism if we voted NO for Independence. More recently, last week in fact, David Cameron vowed to make Scotland “the strongest devolved Government anywhere in the World”.

    Now, this week, we have people like Mundell and his lackey, Professor Adam Tomkins, absolutely contradict Cameron by telling us that key powers, such as those that would combat Osbornes austerity measures, will not be devolved to Scotland … and wait for it …. to save us from ourselves. Stupid, stupid Scots. Bad SNP!

    In light of the facts and statistics it’s high time we turned the tables on them and demanded an explanation, say from Mundell and Tomkins, for the absolute botch-up that they and their cronies have been making, and continue to make, of the UK economy: That’s the Government that actually HAS A ‘Massive’ black hole. A black hole that’s going to get even wider and deeper from all accounts.

    As they imply that the Scots are too stupid to run their own poor, wee country / economy we have George Osborne, dimwit, running the UKs into the ground. He is NOT an economist. He’s got a degree (2:1) in Modern History: End of.

    The man in charge is actually Rupert Harrison who was recently awarded an 18% pay rise by Osborne bringing his wages up to £96.000pa in a time of ‘austerity’ and people like Prof Douglas McWilliams who was recently filmed smoking crack cocaine in a drug den. Comforting, eh?

    ‘In 2010 Osborne predicted that his austerity programme (or was it Harrisons or McWilliams) would eliminate the deficit by 2015 but it hasn’t even been halved and the UK is still borrowing £100 billion a year.

    He also said that UK national debt would have reached £1.232 trillion by 2015 however it has risen to £1.489 trillion (borrowed an additional £257 billion); he would help the UK economy to grow to £1.916 trillion by 2015, but in reality it is only £1.822 trillion and that debt would peak at 67.2% of GDP in 2015, and then start falling, however it has reached 80.4% of GDP and is STILL growing ….. dramatically. This means that Osborne has now overseen the longest sustained increase in the national debt since the Second World War.

    He staked his reputation on maintaining the UK’s AAA Credit Ratings, but in 2013 the UK economy was downgraded for the first time since the 1970s.

    Osborne et al constantly opined, prior to the Election, that if Labour got into power it would threaten the UKs economic recovery. No mention of the fact that over the last 4 / 5 years he’s created more new debt than EVERY single Labour Government in history combined!

    He has also overseen the longest sustained decline in wages since records began with millions of workers significantly worse off than they were in 2008.’

    The man with a Degree in Modern History has now managed, over the last 5 years or so, to take us back in time to the days when malnutrition and rickets were last rife (1940s / 1950s) and queuing up for a days work was the norm (late 1920’s / 30s). Now it would seem that he plans to give us all a helping hand to revisit Dickensian times.

    ‘Paul Johnson, Director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, stated that ‘’George Osborne’s plans to push ahead with tough new fiscal rules forcing government departments to cut spending in a bid to RUN A SURPLUS will see Britain pursue an economic policy not seen since Dickensian times ….. over the last 100 years and more we’ve rarely run surpluses – only for three or four years after the Second World War and for two or three years at the beginning of this century.”

    The OECD has also warned the Chancellor that ”he does not need to cut as far and fast as he is threatening. By stripping this much extra spending out of the economy, he risks recovery and will almost certainly slow down economic growth.”

    Over and above the SNP, IFS and OECD we now have SEVENTY SEVEN top academic economists such as Thomas Piketty and Professor Ha – Joon saying that ”his latest plan to enshrine permanent budget surpluses in law is a political gimmick that ignores “basic economics’’, are not fit for the complexity of a modern 21st-century economy and, as such, they risk a liquidity crisis that could also trigger banking problems, a fall in GDP, a crash, or all three ….. characterised as Micawber economics.”

    What do Mundell and Tompkins have to say about that? Better (off) Together? Deal with our own 7 / 10 billion deficit (if it is that) or be shackled to a country with a 90 billion plus deficit, which is rising dramatically, racked up by Laurel and Hardy?

    They just don’t get it, do they? They can’t see that our patience is running out now and that the days of the Union are well and truly numbered.

  106. Robert Peffers says:

    @The Man in the Jar says: 15 June, 2015 at 11:42 am:

    “I wish… I wish I could earn enough to have to pay £5,000 tax in the first place”.

    Wanna know something. The Man in the Jar?
    You probably do pay that in tax. Tax these days is mainly indirect but the tax we all pay is the indirect plus the direct tax. Direct tax is Income tax and NHS Stamp but the indirect tax is VAT, Road Fuel Duty, Alcohol Tax, Betting Tax, Council Tax, even parking charges. Everything you buy includes a little towards the business’ rates and tax too. Entertainment tax et al.

    Good grief you cannot even buy a newspaper without paying indirectly towards the papers tax even towards the paper’s staff’s tax as you pay towards their wages by your purchase. Now do you get the picture? You even contribute with a drink of water – you pay water rates don’t you?

    Even use of a toilet adds a wee bit tax as part of your water rates is for sewerage and the water board pays tax. Ask a policeman the time and you are paying tax. The Scottish Police, (the only force in the UK that does), pays VAT and your tax funds the police forces.

    Somehow the public are fixated on only direct taxation but it is fairly far down the list of main tax revenues.

  107. jackie g says:

    Stoker says:@2.56pm

    Yes Stoker totaly agree with your comment:

    If that had been an SNP guy you can imagine the furor bloody hypocrits.

    Just like to add the man is a slug.

  108. Kevin Evans says:

    If Scotland got independence tomorrow the history books would still report this period as a victory for the union and how long it was able to hold onto Scotland. Time to leave before it gets worse

  109. heedtracker says:

    Online Britnats going mental as usual, with colonial governor Tomkins brilliantly defenderising UKOK rule of Scotland with IFS levels of foresight:D

    Adam Tomkins ?@ProfTomkins 17h17 hours ago
    .@MerrynSW @FT I don’t believe for a moment that the SNP leadership want a 2nd indyref anytime soon.

    We’ll definitely get one soon then. Prof T has his rule Britannia cheerleaders too, some mad, some mad and scary-

    Jill Stephenson
    .@CouncillorR2014 @AlanRoden They aren’t even the worst. have you seen/heard the appalling harridan Mhairi Black? Foul mouthed little slut.

    Why yes we have Historywoman.

    SNP candidate Mhairi Black canvassing in Paisley.

    A self-confessed political “geek” and football obsessive, Mhairi Black – like any university student – is happier in jeans than in the smart business suits she is having to get used to wearing.

    “My mum insisted,” said the 20-year-old. “We went shopping the minute I was selected.”

  110. Luigi says:

    Robert Peffers says:

    15 June, 2015 at 3:16 pm

    Somehow the public are fixated on only direct taxation but it is fairly far down the list of main tax revenues.

    Well said. I despair at this obsession with income tax, when actually it is one of the fairest ways of collecting revenue from the population. Stealth taxes are cleverly designed hit the least fortunate in society disproportionately. Rob the poor to feed the rich. The sheriff of Nottingham would be proud of the current set-up. If only the medieval peasants had been so ignorant!

  111. One_Scot says:

    Been listening to this repeatedly for an hour or so and at one point during the song I think I had an epiphany, I realised they can never beat us. We will prevail.

  112. Robert Louis says:

    With the arrogant way London is now reacting to Scotland, and breaking its promises, it really feels like it won’t be long before the next independence referendum gets called.

    Even I am shocked at the complete and utter contempt with which the SNP are being treated at Westminster. The over-promoted, and under-talented Tory, David Mundell, may well go down in history as the unionist stooge who broke the union forever.

    It is clear, is it not, that NOTHING can be achieved, unless we point the metaphorical gun of independence at Westminster. They understand nothing else, and have nothing but sneering contempt for the democratically expressed wishes of the people of Scotland.

    We cannot be rid of these people too soon.

  113. Alastair says:

    Coverage of the Scotland Bill debate.
    It it just me the sound is distorted on BBC and Democracy live and no picture on Parliamentary tv

  114. Karmanaut says:

    I have a bank account and pay taxes, which must worry the unionists, because I am a Scot. And Scots shouldn’t be allowed to manage their own finances, because that’s like letting them self harm.

    While we’re at it, we should ask Westminster for a list of ALL the things Scots should be prevented from doing.

    Just so we all know where our place is under their table.

    I have literally had it up to here with these twats.

  115. Petra says:

    @ heedtracker says ”Jill Stephenson?@Historywoman @CouncillorR2014 @AlanRoden

    They aren’t even the worst. have you seen/heard the appalling harridan Mhairi Black? Foul mouthed little slut.”

    Wow! Mhairi Black a ‘slut’. Something should be done about the foul mouthed person who has just defamed that young girl. Maybe her father as her manager will deal with this.

    Slut ….. definition …. an immoral or dissolute woman; a prostitute.

  116. bookie from hell says:

    Yeah,BBC Parliament channel sound was distorted,sorted now

    Why is Sir Edward Leigh’s face always mega RED.

  117. Dr Jim says:

    Notice how the Media keep focus on “The Scots” the “SNP”

    They conveniently miss out the rest of our population who voted SNP and YES

    We have every ethnic part of society represented in Scotland who vote with us “Scots” but the Media want to keep it about Anti English constantly a them and us situation

    Maybe it’s time for some of our Muslim Buddies or Chinese pals or Polish mates to give a bit of a shout out for Scotland
    Maybe the Media might have a wee problem calling them Nazis

  118. David says:

    Top Tip: If you have a Westminster-induced “Black Hole” of £5,000 in your account, solve it by not paying your TV Licence for 34 years – simples!

  119. Andrew Haddow says:

    “WM will not hesitate to legislate to prevent a third referendum for at least another 20 years, on the grounds that the nats had two shots at it already”

    It’s now clear to everyone that the indyref was won by cheating and is therefore null and void.

  120. Luigi says:

    Robert Louis says:

    15 June, 2015 at 3:42 pm

    With the arrogant way London is now reacting to Scotland, and breaking its promises, it really feels like it won’t be long before the next independence referendum gets called.

    I think we are still in the “Just ignore them, and it will all blow over” stage. The reality of the May 7th result still hasn’t quite sunk in yet. It will, very soon – expect the panic, anger and insults to increase exponentially as they realise Scotland has already gone – it’s just not been formalised yet. In our hearts and minds we are already there. I think NS is playing a blinder by acting as if we are already independent. Political reality will catch up soon.

  121. Richardinho says:

    Oh dear, gives a whole new meaning to the phrase, ‘the feeding of the 5000..’ !

  122. Joemcg says:

    Murphy telling the truth for once in his puff I notice today saying second vote “inevitable” “Scotland’s streets have been taken over by aggressive nationalism” too. Larkhall?

  123. Joemcg says:

    “Lame-assly dumb Cameron” great vocab. Spud!

  124. Cuilean says:

    Thank God! The Tories are there, like the 7th Cavalry, to save us from our own stupidity. How magnanimous! And the Tories are so well known for their ultruism too! Just ask Lord Malcolm Rifkind…

    Yes, Cameron and Osborne are ‘helicopter parents’ saving their wee, daft bairnies frae their wee, daft ideas! Bless.

    Meanwhile back in reality….

    Oh, and did anyone notice, in that hilarious video, the feart mum and weans, holed up in the kitchen, (where they belong of course) eatin’ their cereal? So that’s where Labour’s ‘Cereal Woman’ germinated!

    And that must have been Nicola Sturgeon, aged 2, bashing her family cat o’er the heid? I assume just before she had begun her reign of terror in Scotland, by cutting the hair off her sister’s dolly?

    Well, we all know what happened to the 7th Cavalry. This is all warming up for their ‘last stand’.

  125. Charles Edward says:

    Creepy the quasi – politician breaking a butterfly on a wheel balancer. Also fits exhausts.

    Prof. Starkey donated his moustache to the British Museum in the last decade of the 20th century.
    A notable Guardian journo was allegedly involved in the high visibility heist which saw the moustache escape once more into the wild. Almost considered in the elite list of 100 objects that mark our global history the moustache was narrowly pipped at the post by the Akan drum.
    Any sightings should immediately be reported to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service.

    There’s a £5000 reward for everyone!
    Or alternatively cash in your reward for 500,000 penny chews.
    Fruit salads or Black Jacks.

  126. Ken500 says:

    Redwood ‘ SNP only got 50% of the vote’ in Scotland. The Tories in Westminster only got 30% of the vote.

  127. nodrog says:

    David Mundell – the man with no VETO rejects FFA proposal from SNP.

  128. heedtracker says:

    @ Petra, Maybe her father as her manager will deal with this.

    Nah, as current affairs commentator and future Mrs Heedtracker Taylor Swift says…

  129. Kevin Evans says:

    The debate is actually pretty good and constructive

  130. Hamish10 says:

    Using the Tory EU referendum mindset ( a misnomer I know) that for the next Scots referendum the Tories must accept that no one in Scotland who is not born in Scotland or formally declares an allegiance to Scotland should be allowed to vote.

    Of course except for the Poles, Slovac Czechs, Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Norweigian, Catalonians etcetera.

    Seems fair.

    Mind you why bother. I think if the Scots have snp majority in Holyrood we just declare UDI.

  131. Kevin Evans says:

    That’s interesting that labour are now promoting torture.

  132. Ken500 says:

    Until Graham Allen Labour Nottingham North spoke. Slavering

  133. Andrew McLean says:

    reading the Scotsman a poster was slagging of WOS winged eagle, another pointing out its a winged lion!
    well that got me thinking?
    Wings over Scotland, have a Winged Lion?
    Is it Saint Mark,”Pax tibi Marce, evangelista meus. Hic requiescet corpus tuum.”
    was I close Rev?
    Or is it the biblical “Behold, I send my messenger ahead of you, he will prepare your way”, Ezekiel.
    Or “Prepare Ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths.” (Gospel according to Mark 1:1–3)
    Do I get a prize?

  134. Tinto Chiel says:

    What a great day for rampant UKOKery on Radios 3 and 4. First all that Magna Carta/Runnymede nonsense, totally irrelevant to Scots Law and our concept of sovereignty and then Wellington and Waterloo, a victory which would have been impossible without the efforts of Blücher and his Prussian troops and the Scottish regiments involved. No likee? Suck it up, Sweaties.

    And Gordon “Steamy Windows” Matheson, what an asset to Slab! Things must be very wrong at GCC if he is putting his hat in the ring for the Deputy Dog post. These Augean Stables need cleansing next year.

    More bleach, anyone?

  135. Effijy says:

    5,000 to 1 the odds of Scotland ever being stupid enough to give
    the Tories a majority!

    £5,000, the cost of an “introductory” letter from Blue Tory Malcolm Rifkin, or Labour’s Jack Straw!

    5,000 the number of people who protested again BBC Bias at the Quay ( Their report- up to 200??????)

    5,000 the annual target for SNP Bad reports in each UK media outlets.

    5,000 x 100 the number of UK citizens using Food banks!

    If I send Westminster a Cheque for £5,000, can I get my share of my country back from the thieving, lying, corrupt paedos who run the UK?

  136. Ken500 says:

    It’s torture listening to Graham Allen Labour Nottingham North

  137. iain macgillivray says:

    The trouble is, sad, frightened and sometimes ignorant people will believe this and still vote No…so the spotlight has to shine on this abuse of democracy and pure fable telling.

    As for Mundell, his time will come…and if this is his zenith, some view…from the top of a stinking pile of you know what…

  138. One_Scot says:

    Carmichael has the look of a man who sold his soul and can’t find his receipt.

  139. Chic McGregor says:

    @Rough Bounds
    “I had wondered what the Latin numerals were for 5,000 because it would have made a joke if it was MMMMM! But apparently it’s just a V with a horizontal bar over the top.

    The V does look a bit like two fingers though doesn’t it?
    Is that what they are really saying to us?”

    MMMMM is apparently used as well and also ICC (if you picture the C’s facing the other way)

    I think the V bar looks like a sticky out tongue. Same message.

  140. Born Optimist says:

    ” Dr Jim says:
    15 June, 2015 at 1:28 pm

    Somebody suggested before about a Christmas Annual.”

    Just think how great The Best of Wings Over Scotland would look on the Christmas Best Seller List if every Yesser bought a copy (and another to give to their Naysayer friends). Think hard about this suggestion, Rev.

  141. Grouse Beater says:

    You won’t believe it!

    One day after my latest essay is published I pick up the Scottish Daily Express and, as I wait for my repaired car at the garage, there is an article on Page 15 on the very same subject only …

    the Scottish hero of the hour, Dr John Rae – the protagonist of the essay – is omitted!!! Not a mention.

    The British Establishment is STILL at it.

    Here’s last Sunday’s essay:

  142. Alastair says:

    Labour now have a shoe-in for their next conference theme tune.

    George Micheal’s “Zip me up before you go go”

  143. ronnie anderson says:

    Chris Law better git his Fire Engine ready & Hosie that man doon , He’s oan fuckin FIRE.

  144. ronnie andeson says:

    If Stewart Hosie wiz ah member of the Apache Tribe he would have a belt of scalps in the course of his speach.

  145. Don McGregor says:

    Michelle has arrived in London,two fold spread in the standard of her success and that she has been chased from her homeland by evil cybernats.

    No mention of her failed business and the move to London being her strategy to relaunched a stalled career on the back of supposed percecution and intimidation.

    Michelle”s definition of Scotland following its own policies and or asking for its share of resources is that this is causing grievance and division..

    No wonder she went bust if she did not ask her clients for payment and followed what they said to the word witout question to the detrement of her work force.

  146. msean says:

    Listening to all these MPs from non Scots constituencies telling Scots that basically, “you canny dae it”. Now a Labour MP wanting details,wasn’t many details forthcoming when Mr Brown et all made the vow.

  147. Cactus says:

    Turns out Charlie & Craig would actually walk 5000 miles.. only 4500 left to go lads 🙂

    “Scotland Bill: UK Government to reject SNP’s full fiscal autonomy plan”
    So the ball is now back in our court.. over to you, Scotland.. ace it!

    Free, is a magic number:

  148. frogesque says:

    Him mm . . . Only 5k, so who do I make the cheque out to?

    By my reckoning it would be bargain just to get shot of them all.

  149. Cactus says:

    Hmm.. the above CBeebies headline should be corrected to..

    “Scotland Bill: UK Government to reject their full fiscal autonomy plan for Scotland”

    It’s in the same context, ye know whit ah mean.. oh look, there’s a vow in the trees, don’t feed it any more nonuts.

  150. IvMoz says:


    Tommy Sheppard on BBC Parliament has just asked MP’s to get the name of the Scottish National Party correct (They have incorrectly been called the Scottish Nationalist Party by several MP’s during the Scotland Bill debate).

    Rock on Tommy

  151. Fred says:

    Actress of the Year Award, It’s a toss up between David Starkey at Runnymede & Jim Murphy’s London monologue.

    Lots more fun in store as Gordon Matheson will now enter the ring!

  152. Kevin Evans says:

    Am I watching this debate correctly where the Tories are more in favour of more powers for the Scottish parliament than the Labour Party?

  153. Legerwood says:


    Report in the Herald says anyone can vote in Labour (Scottish branch) leadership election if they pay £3 to register as a Labour party supporter.

  154. msean says:

    No constitutional convention. The will of the Scottish people has been newly shown at the recent General Election. They did not choose Labour. No need for a constitutional convention needed. Labour just want dependence it seems.

  155. Robert Kerr says:

    Lets all register then and have fun voting!

  156. JLT says:

    Even with the media still deriding not just the SNP, but the Scottish nation in its entirety, then with this continual ringing in the ears of ‘No. No. No.’ from the Tory benches is surely going to grate with most of Scotland eventually.

    For those that voted ‘No’, it might only be a matter of time before around 20+% of them begin to get this creeping realisation that all the warnings that the ‘Yes’ camp gave out prior to the referendum, are slowly coming to pass.

    And with no light at the end of the tunnel while we remain tied to the Tories and Westminster, then a lot of them will surely begin to realise that the EU Referendum has to be the ‘red line in the sand’ when it finally comes to Scotland having a proper say in the politics of these islands.

    Referendum 2 …I wonder at times if it might just not be a straight cry of ‘UDI’ when the time comes should the rUK decide to pull out of the EU. At some point, Scotland will decide that ‘enough is enough’ …and personally, it can’t come soon enough.

  157. gus1940 says:

    What a performance by The SNP in today’s debate.

    Stewart Hosie has been briliant as has Pete Wishart, Tommy Sheppard et al.

    And they used to say that The SNP was an Alex Salmond one man band – perhaps his absence from the debate was to prove that point.

  158. IvMoz says:

    @Robert Kerr

    I might just do that to vote for Richard Baker as Deputy.

    Who can forget his TV disaster regarding knife crime.

    To see him torn apart time & time again would give me so much satisfaction.

  159. Robert Peffers says:

    @Legerwood says: 15 June, 2015 at 6:58 pm:

    “Report in the Herald says anyone can vote in Labour (Scottish branch) leadership election if they pay £3 to register as a Labour party supporter”.

    I thought about it, and made enquiry, but they wouldn’t let me vote for Stewart Hosie for Labour Leader.

  160. Cherry says:

    Is it just me or does “Fluffy” give everybody else the heebee jeebees! I’m really finding it hard watching this wee gnaff pontificate and Flounce about at the despatch box. How I’ve not stuck my foot through my tv I don’t know!

    What happens now? I say the 56 should stand and walk out…then they can get back to Scotland double quick and man the battlements…this is a farce of monumental proportions…just let’s take our ball and go home! I want out of this miserable union. 🙁

  161. Robert Peffers says:

    @gus1940 says: 15 June, 2015 at 7:16 pm:

    ” … And they used to say that The SNP was an Alex Salmond one man band – perhaps his absence from the debate was to prove that point.”

    I’ve never had any doubts that the SNP were never in my lifetime a one man band. Why the hell do you think they killed of Willie MacRae all those years ago?

  162. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    @Robert Peffers ,
    This is one for you as I was having a discussion about this with Paula Rose on twitter a wee while ago…

    Good to see that indyref2 is getting back on the agenda. So we will again have to think seriously about what happens to the country once we get Indy.

    Scotland become Scotland – so that one is easy.

    But what becomes of RUK?

    I think I have the answer as follows:
    “The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” becomes
    “The Kingdom of South Britain and Northern Ireland”.

    Simple – just delete United as obviously not required anymore and replace Great with South as that of course is geographically correct.

    rUK subjects would become South British and instead of GB on their cars they would use SB.


    What do you think Robert?

    I am sure David Starkey would approve.

  163. Grouse Beater says:

    Scotland Bill debate:

    Mundell (I almost typed Muddle) is truly the Last Man Standing – a panicky General Custer at Little Big Horn.

  164. Kevin Evans says:

    Does the SB stand for “sons of bitches”?

  165. Blair paterson says:

    I think now is the time. To call a second referendum the reason being the uk government have broken their vow it’s as simple as that

  166. Robert Peffers says:

    I’m watching the voting in the commons and I’m more certain than ever that things are going to come to a head in the near future with this Scotland Bill being the blue touch paper that sets things to go bang.

  167. wull says:

    David Mundell: FFA “would cost every family in Scotland £5,000?.

    This is a pretend statistic, obviously false, indeed meaningless.

    For it to mean something, we (and David Mundell) would need to know how many ‘families’ there are in Scotland. And that requires a clear idea of how ‘family’ is defined.

    Is a ‘family’ the same as a ‘household’? If someone lives alone, does he or she constitute a ‘family’? Or is that person part of another ‘family’ which lives somewhere else? Can someone belong to two ‘families’ at once, or only one? The questions could be multiplied … What does David Mundell mean? What does he understand by ‘every family in Scotland’? What is a ‘family’ nowadays?

    The statement also indicates that all ‘families’ – however they are defined – are equal, because FFA is going to impact them all equally. It will cost each of them exactly the same amount of money. It doesn’t matter if it’s a ‘one-member family’ or a ‘ten-member family’, if the members of the ‘family’ are all pensioners or if none of them are pensioners, if they are in work or out of work, on benefits or enjoying private wealth, if it’s a ‘single-parent’ or a ‘multiple parent’ family – all that makes no difference whatsoever to the outcome: FFA will still cost each of them the exact same sum of 5,000 pounds.

    Just as the magic figure ‘5,000’ has been plucked from thin air, so has the emotive word ‘family’.

    The reason for using this term is not because it means anything precise, but simply to make the biggest possible emotional impact. Mundell is ‘pushing the right buttons’ to get the response – fear, shock, horror – he wants.

    He is also trying to make sure that his meaningless statement is not held up to scrutiny. ‘Get the emotional response which blinds people’s reasoning faculties, and they will never notice that I am speaking vapid nonsense.’

    Someone should simply ask David Mundell how many families there are in Scotland.

    Floundering around in the thin air his mind inhabits, maybe he would pluck a magic number from his repertoire. Let’s say: a million families.
    Next question: what’s that number based on? Where do you get it from? How do you define family?
    Then, as he flounders around trying to answer that one: how come every single family in Scotland is going to lose exactly the same amount of money? Where does that beautifully rounded 5,000 pounds come from? And why does one sum fit all, when ‘families’ are so obviously different from each other?

    And, finally, since we are ‘Better Together’, and depend on the UK’s ‘broad shoulders’, would the British Exchequer not be kind enough to make up the shortfall by chucking a wee annual subsidy of 5,000 pounds to ‘every family in Scotland’? Surely not too much to ask … In fact, would that not be a very good deal for the Exchequer? Have you discussed it with the Chancellor?

    Keeping Scotland in the Union, even ‘in the manner to which she is accustomed’, and even while offering that 5,000 quid subsidy to ‘families in Scotland’, would be a cost-cutting exercise. Calculating a million such families, taxpayers in the rest of the UK would only be paying out 5 billion (5,000 million) pounds per annum to Scotland. Cheap at the price.

    Let me try to explain why.

    I am no statistician, in fact I am hardly numerate … so my arithmetic might be miles wrong … If what I am about to say is simply foolish, please correct me.

    I seem to remember a frequently repeated Unionist / BT claim during the referendum that every man woman and child in Scotland was being subsidised by the British Exchequer to the tune of 1,200 pounds per annum. Let’s presume for a moment that that claim was true.

    Scotland’s population is 5.5 million people. Presuming that 5.5 million people were receiving from the Exchequer 1,200 GBP each, Scotland remaining in the Union would be costing taxpayers in the rest of the UK 6.6 billion pounds per year. (My simplistic way of doing arithmetic: 5.5 million people X 1,000 pounds = 5.5 billion pounds. Then: 5.5 million people X 200 pounds = one-fifth of the previous figure = 1.1. billion pounds. Add the two together – 5.5 billion plus 1.1 billion – and you get 6.6 billion pounds.

    So, if there are a ‘million families’ in Scotland, which seems a reasonable estimate (and one that David Mundell could easily pluck from the air), and if the UK Exchequer subsidised each of them to the tune of 5,000 pounds per annum, it would save the UK Exchequer 1.6 billion pounds every year. (Current subsidy to Scotland, without FFA: 6.6 billion pounds. With FFA that subsidy would be cut to 5 billion pounds. Saving 1.6 billion pounds per year.)

    That’s a saving of 8 billion pounds (1.6 billion X 5 years) in the course of a Westminster parliament’s 5-year term. Not bad at all, especially in these days of austerity, when everything is being cut.

    Conclusion: FFA will save the British Exchequer a considerable amount of money. By refusing it, the Conservative government and its Unionist allies are imposing an unnecessary burden on the taxpayers in the rest of the UK.

    Further Conclusion If I were a taxpayer living in England -or Wales or Northern Ireland, for that matter – I would be furious at Mr. Cameron and his chums for wasting my money. His ‘chums’ would include any LibDem or Labour numpty who votes against FFA for Scotland, as well as the whole of the Conservative back and front bench.

    ‘Why are these gloating idiots that I voted into power refusing the SNP’s generous offer? Even paying out a ‘subsidy’ to ‘families in Scotland, like the one of 5 billion pounds mentioned above, would be cheaper for me than my being forced to continue with the present arrangements (the Barnet formula, and all that). So, please, Mr. Cameron, stop chucking my money away unnecessarily.

    ‘And by the way, Mr. Cameron, I appreciate that you are not a fool: I don’t mind you giving the Scots just 5 billion to keep them in the Union, because it is an excellent investment. Look at all the oil money and other revenues that flow straight from there into our Exchequer. Even if the current 2 billion pounds in oil revenues were correct, which I know is not the case, that alone would mean the 5 billion ‘subsidy’ given to the Scots to make up for their FFA shortfall is really only 3 billion. I can also think of plenty of other similar benefits which mean that they only appear to be being subsidised, when in fact we are gaining from them, and will continue to do so when they have FFA. Well played, sir! And oh! goody goody – I get to keep Trident as well.

    ‘The only one who really is a fool, Mr. Cameron, is that Scottish idiot, Mundell. So please, Mr. Prime Minister, please do get rid of him. Stop him from spouting all that meaningless unthought-through nonsense. Do the decent thing: give these stupid Scots their FFA, and save us all a fortune.’

  168. r esquierdo says:

    The best form of defence is attack.Lets start ramming Chilcot
    Paedophilia, Liars,expenses and tax cheats,Thieves, Pension stealers up their waste expulsion pipes. They do not like it up em. The kid glooves should have been off two years ago and winning the referendum would have been history.The approach was too soft

  169. A MacRitchie says:


    What happened? Did it pass or was it defeated?

  170. caledonia says:

    For those wanting to join labour so they can vote
    Please dont bother because with one vote each we will find out the
    Real number of scottish members

    Also i would not pay 3 pence to vote for any of that muppets

  171. Bob Mack says:

    I was initially very annoyed when the SNP were being defeated in vote after vote with regard to their amendments being accepted.
    It has now dawned on me that this may be part of the overall strategy.
    It is a very potent and visual demonstration to the Scottish people that no matter what the SNP put forward on their behalf, including even those ambitions which are not at all threatening ,will be defeated by the English and their Unionist allies just for the sake of putting the SNP in “their place”.
    The Unionists forget they have been given a solid mandate by the Scottish people who they are there to represent.
    The message becomes clear.We in England will decide.
    My knowledge of Scotland tells me that the frustration will not go on for long without
    dissent. You can see it already building in these pages.
    Well played.

  172. IvMoz says:

    @A MacRitchie

    Disgustingly it was defeated meaning Westminster can wind up Holyrood at it’s whim.

  173. Luigi says:

    JLT says:
    15 June, 2015 at 7:11 pm

    For those that voted ‘No’, it might only be a matter of time before around 20+% of them begin to get this creeping realisation that all the warnings that the ‘Yes’ camp gave out prior to the referendum, are slowly coming to pass.

    There’s nothing like the bleak prospect of five long years of Tory majority rule to focus the minds of soft NO voters. The last time we had five long years of Tory majority rule, we ended up with a Scottish parliament.

  174. Stoker says:

    Robert Kerr wrote:
    “Lets all register then and have fun voting!”

    OK, own up, who left the asylum gates open and let Mr.Kerr out?
    Robert, i wouldn’t give them the steam off my excrement.
    The Lemmings will find their own route over the edge.

    btw, Sincere apologies to any Lemmings reading this, it was not my intention to insult your species by comparing you to Unionists.
    I know the difference, Lemmings don’t really commit suicide.

  175. Luigi says:

    Are Labour siding with the Tories on the Scotland bill amendments?

  176. ronnie anderson says:

    The no so good happy talk talks, we,re getting nowhere fast wie all these debates,its going to produce he haw.

  177. Tinto Chiel says:

    @ heedtracker: “Nah, as current affairs commentator and future Mrs Heedtracker Taylor Swift says…”

    As The Venerable Mr Peffers would say, “Woah! Are you sure about this, heedtracker?”

    Have you canvassed Miss Swift re. her views on Scottish Independence? Have you, eh? Are you SURE?

    Don’t do it, she’s not worth it, believe me.

  178. Rock says:

    Dave Hansell,

    “Time to do an Ian Smith.”

    He wanted to prolong white minority rule and bring apartheid to the then Rhodesia.

    UDI might well turn out to be the only way for Scotland to break free from colonial rule.

    But we do not in any way wish to be associated with that racist colonialist.

  179. msean says:

    An amendment had 519 MPs voting on it, but I’m not sure all of them were at the debate. Surely you should have been present/ listening to the debate in the chamber to better be persuaded that your decision is correct when voting. All these Unionists needed more information not so long ago… 🙂

  180. msean says:

    Sorry,that figure should be 573,not 519.

  181. bb says:

    Did Ian Murray just vote on Westminster retaining the power to dissolve the Scottish Parliament?

    Murray, he looks like a little boy lost.

    If ever there was a Red Tory in Westminster, then it surely has to be Ian Murray, MP for Embra.

    O/T BBC Parliament playing around with the SNP sound system today. Sounded muffled whenever an SNP MP was speaking. Strange!

  182. caledonia says:

    @ msean keep raising your figures like that and you will get a job with the black hole writers

  183. Free Scotland says:

    FFA “would cost every family in Scotland £5,000?.

    When muppets like Mundell make ridiculous claims like this, they should be held to account immediately by the news medium reporting the claim. E.g. Mr Mundell, we assume from your authoritative tone that you know how many families currently live in Scotland and that you simply divided what you consider the cost would be by the number of families to arrive at the neat and tidy figure of £5000.00.

    Blank look on Fluffy’s fizog, cough, splutter etc. etc.

  184. Rock says:


    “but the law is the law and it should apply to all citizens, regardless of social status, sexuality or organisations attended etc etc etc.”

    It should indeed.

    But it never has and never will, unless there is a revolution.

    The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low, in my view.

    That is why the lying Carmichael has the confidence to remain as an MP and face a court challenge.

    As a lawyer himself, he knows for sure that he will win.

  185. mac says:

    Westminster sucks

  186. Robert Peffers says:

    Hoss Mackintosh says: 15 June, 2015 at 7:47 pm:

    ” … But what becomes of RUK?”

    To be perfectly honest, Hoss, I don’t give a damn what they call it as long as it is not any form of a still United Kingdom.

    Having said that I’ll give you the historic facts.

    1603 – There was no Union of the Crowns – just both still independent crowns landing on one person’s head.

    The 1603 Kingdom of England was still under the legal system of the, “The Divine Right Of Kings”, as the English crown had annexed Wales, (The Statute of Rhuddlan, 1284), and annexed Ireland, (The Crown of Ireland Act, 1542, the 1603 Kingdom of England was composed of three countries.

    In 1320 the laws of Scotland were ratified by the then head of Christendom, The Pope, as a Kingdom where the people of Scotland were sovereign and the monarchy were appointed by the people as the defender of the people’s sovereignty and thus under Scots law then, (and now), the King/Queen of Scots was not legally sovereign. This was why, when James VI of Scotland inherited the Crown of England he could not just do as England had done with Wales & Ireland and just annex the three country Kingdom of England as part of Scotland. He tried, but failed, to form A United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland. The legal situation saw the adoption of a situation where the same person wore two crowns as James I of England and VI of Scotland and the two kingdoms parliaments also remained independent.

    Who then could blame James for moving to his larger Kingdom where he was still sovereign and deserting Scotland where he was not sovereign?

    This situation continued until the English Parliament had their, “Glorious Revolution”, of 1688, in which they deposed the English Monarchy, (James II), and imported the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange but changed the Kingdom of England legal system forever by removing from their new joint monarchy their veto over Parliament of England. This, as the two kingdoms were still independent, kicked off what the English still call, “The Jacobite Rebellion”. However, as you cannot rebel against a monarchy not your own, it could not be a rebellion so was actually the start of a set of wars between two independent kingdoms. These wars ran from 1688 right through the Treaty of Union until 1745. 57 years of war and much underhand dealings and undercover spy activity.

    The English felt threatened as the Scots were allied with the French in, “The Auld Alliance”, and England were fighting European wars over, “The English Navigational Acts”, that they also applied to Scotland. These debarred other nations from trading with the English colonies except by use of the English Mercantile Marine, (or with their own ships crewed by Englishmen), and these wars had England deeply in national debt while Scotland had no national debt.

    This led to the London Scot, William Paterson, to start a subscription scheme to bail out the English Crown/government and this led to the formation of the private Company of, “The Bank of England”.

    It was this same William Paterson who popped up in Scotland and began to set up the ill fated Darien Expedition and he worked along with his close friend, “Daniel Defoe”, who was in fact an English Undercover Agent who had the ear of the Scottish Landowners who were also the Scottish Parliamentarians. (Siccna Paircel o Rouges in ae Nation).

    The combined results of several years of bad harvests and the English Navigational acts, where the English Mercantile Marine could demand any price for imports and pay any price for exports, bankrupted, (not Scotland but), the Scottish Landowners who then saw the Darien Expedition as a way to establish Scottish colonies.

    The Crown prevented the Royal Navy aiding the expedition and the Royal army, (already at Darien), refused to aid the Scottish expedition – even refusing them a barrel of clean water – the Expedition, that had begun underfunded after England promise 50% funding but withdrew their support after ships, stores and crews were engaged.

    Then by bribery, threats and underhand dealing the English were set to force the Treaty of Union. They also had the English army stationed along the Scottish borders and an English fleet standing off Berwick.

    So there you go, Hoss, the title of our partner kingdom in this hellish union before we were forced into Union. Was, “The Kingdom Of England”, and that is what is legally the Status Quo Ante when the bipartite union is ended by Scotland leaving.

  187. Graeme Doig says:

    Mr Peffers

    I’m glad i’m on your side 🙂

    I still reserve the right to get extremely frustrated at SNP ministers inability to put forward adequate responses to some of this tosh.

  188. yesindyref2 says:

    I hear Danny Alexander is asking David Mundell for his wonky calculator back, the one with its registers off by one and its duodecimals in bits.

    In those far-off long-distant legendary and infamous days of 40 Labour MPs scratching the UK Labour party’s back which in turn scratched the Conservatives backs, while knifing each others, and 11 LibDem MPs like Alexander and the truthsayer Carmichael, Mundell was able to hide behind the skirts of these people and peep out from between the legs. Not a pretty sight, enough to put you off your tea.

    Now he’s on his own, the focus is on him, he is THE representative of all things Scottish, for the Conservative Government.

    Won’t be long now.

  189. Stoker says:

    @ Rock (8.34pm).
    You’re not alone in holding those views. I’m right there with you.
    The only difference between us is that i wouldn’t go as far as to say ALL lawyers are lowlifes but in general i’m in agreement with you that the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core.

  190. A MacRitchie says:

    Re Amendment 58 to Scotland Bill

    It really annoys me that for hrs the Scotland Bill has been discussed now and there has been a small number of opposition MP’s participating in the debates then when a vote is required it appeared to me that the ayes had it but it was called divided hence the vote. To be defeated the opposition then floods the voting these folk had absolutely no interest in the discussion that had taken place but yet again the will of the Scottish people is defeated to keep control of ………when will we ever escape this demeaning undemocratic corrupt political system. How did the red Tory Murray vote?

    I am also complexed by the fact that having an other Tory Government I would have expected a huge outcry of dismay at this result but instead we seem to have entered a period of phoney peace. Is this due to the fact that we are waiting for results of what happens in the Scotland Bill, FFR or even later the result of EU referendum? Will the battle for independence continue indyref2 after manifesto for 2016?

    Am sick of unionist comments of One Nation, Indyref result being used to justify keeping the status quo and the continued watering down of devolution. Full final Settlement. Having Gov General’s like Mundell

    No Home Rule
    No Devo Max
    No Federalism
    No Smith Commission
    Struggling even to get watered down Smith nor are we ever going to get the continuous lie of getting one of the most powerful devolved parliaments.

    So what is it going to take for the 55 percent to realise this. We will never convince most of these committed unionists but may get 15%+ of these folk. So what are we waiting for? what issue is going spark a demand for indyref2?

    We need to have it before 2020 I don’t want yet another 5yrs of Tory Rule or to go through this continual drips and drabs of changes to useless additional powers.

    Even Winning indref2 it is still going to take 2-3yrs after it to actually become we can become free and totally independent.

    Are we ever going to get 60% do we need it?

    Only those willing to take big risks win the biggest prize possible ……. independence. So we need a big person to make the big decision to run it again so we need to start preparing for it now. We need our own bank and currency which I believe is possible but nobody seems to be doing anything about it.

    I’ve sat through the two days of Scotland Bill debates now and it has just made me more convinced that we are never going to get anywhere through the Westminster system. No amount of common sense is ever going to prevail in that place. Yet again another amendment defeated.

    However I have been really impressed by our MP’s there

    Angus McNeil TAS SH TS KO JC PG MF to name a few.

    Last comment re Smurphy……….bye bye.

  191. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    Yay, a vagrant memory, a few chosen keywords and found it again.

    William Speirs Bruce and the Scotia, the Antarctic – and indirectly a part of the reason why Argentina thinks it has rights to South Georgia and the Falklands. There are parallels with your commentary.

  192. Rock says:


    “i wouldn’t go as far as to say ALL lawyers are lowlifes but in general i’m in agreement with you that the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core.”

    The vast majority of lawyers is what I normally say. Of course there are a few exceptions like Ghandi and our Nicola.

    That includes so called “human rights lawyers”, (Cherie Blair for example is or was one), who make a killing out of these cases, while appearing to be the nice guys.

    Lying is their stock in trade, and they charge a fortune for doing so – in their clients’ name.

    A Scottish judge very recently ruled that lying under oath is fine with him, as long as it was not a pleb who did it.

  193. yesindyref2 says:

    @A Mac Ritchie “We will never convince most of these committed unionists but may get 15%+ of these folk.”

    I don’t agree. I think bit by bit most of them will come round. Indy Ref 2 was confronation and polarisation, but this stage is a kind of, as you say, phoney peace. But that’s “the players”, not the punters. For the punters it’s not top of the bill right now, summer is coming, holidays on the way, school’s out in one and a half weeks.

    At the end of it though there’s a Scotland Act, and full interpretation of what will be limited powers, very limited. And that, after the school holidays is when, hopefully, all hell will break loose. I’d expect some big anniversary events in the run up to Sep 18th 2015. Some symbolic torch, perhaps a candle vigil somewhere. And then relight the beacon. And many will remember which way they voted, and perhaps wonder why.

  194. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi yesindyref2, Robert Peffers and Grouse Beater.

    Scottish involvement in polar exploration – see my post in ‘off-topic’.

  195. A MacRitchie says:


    Not quite sure what u mean indyref2 confrontational etc. but I hope your right about the time and the hell to come because the YES politicians need to wake up. All hell should have broke out when the Tories re entered number 10. Those who voted yes are down 10%+ form indyref in gen election. But we seem to be doing nothing to prepare for it.

    We will never get a majority of unionist no’s those left committed to unionist parties are hard core die hard party members

  196. yesindyref2 says:

    @A MacRitchie
    Sorry, I meant Indy Ref 1 was confrontational, not 2.

  197. Jim Morris says:

    For most of the discussions, there was a large group of SNP, a couple of NI members plus a handful of Labour, LibDem (Carmichael sat with the SNP!) and Tories. When important divisions were announced there were hundreds of unionists in the place to make sure nothing changed even though they had played no part in the discussions whatsoever. What a total democratic farce. RumpUK is rotten.

  198. revjimbob says:

    The Labour party Political film is truly dreadful in every way you can think – from conception to editing. There’s a woman who claims to juggle her kids! That must qualify as abuse.

  199. Lollysmum says:

    Wasn’t the quote about the £5000 tax hike per family made by Labour Minister Andy Kerr in 2007 (just before that election) when Labour were saying Scotland would have an £11bn black hole if it went independent?

    Just been watching Ivan McKee on Livestream’s Youtube channel & this is one of the quotes he used (31.40s in)

    but found him being quoted in Scotsman article 28th March 2007 here

    Thought this might add to your sources for quotes. I’m sure we’ll be seeing these figures again! They do say variety is the spice of life 🙂

  200. Lollysmum says:

    Don’t know whether this will work but is a photo attached to a tweet from Andy Drynan on Twitter.If you can see the photo look for the word. Text says ‘this should be a Better Together emblem for #indyref2 :-)’ Sorry I’ve no idea how to link to an actual tweet.

  201. Chris says:

    Why did Ken Dodd start writting Scots Labour’s party political broadcasts?

  202. Never mind all this indy ref 2 pish, it’ll be rigged even more convincingly than the first one. If the snp get a majority at next years election, declare udi, ive had enough of these liars and downright anti scots a”’holes in westmonster.

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