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The limits of science

Posted on December 05, 2020 by

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    240 to “The limits of science”

    1. Kevin Cargill says:

      Was this prior to the EU referendum and the doctor is withdrawing the faculties required to vote remain? ??

    2. Bugger le Panda says:

      Chris I rarely comment on your cartoons but religiously look at them, when you are not playing golf.

      I am moved to comment today but only to reinforce the message you are sending.

      All those inoculants cannot be synthesised and distributed.

      They can only seeded and grown if the soil and climate are appropriate.

      England is basically lost.

      Keep it up and have a good festival season.

    3. Robert Louis says:

      Brilliant Chris. This one image sums everything up.

      An ineopt, out of control wholly corrupted idiotic government in Westminster, literally trashing the economy day after day after day.

      Just watch as the pound contiues to rise against the US dollar, as hedge funds and speculators (brexit funders and Tories) place their bets on a no deal brexit, leading to the pounds collapse and devaluation in January. Hedge funds and speculators will make an absolute killing.

      As I have often said here, every last one of them, Johnson, Patel, Sunak, Gove, Rabb, Cummings and Farage should be in jail.

    4. Morgatron says:

      The Bull fellow has skin like a rhino and a brain of a gnat. Nothing will see them change course now. The lunatics are now ready to burn down the asylum. Great cartoon as always Chris.

    5. Sensibledave says:

      Bugger le Panda

      Ah, Remoanerness continues to thrive.

      Be honest, you want/need things to go badly don’t you. Otherwise it will demonstrate that you know Jack!

    6. Liz g says:

      Should have had a DNR in place … it’s the only human thing to do 🙂

    7. Bugger le Panda says:

      @Sensibledave

      I bow to your ego.

    8. Contrary says:

      Chris – do you have a book or pamphlet of of this year’s cartoons that I can purchase for discerning friends as Christmas presents? I’m fine with hastily thrown together publications, of some kind.

      Bugger le Panda, yes, I think you are right, England is lost, it’s not our concern anymore, or shouldn’t be anyway.

    9. Willie says:

      Just read that after Alok Sharma the Westminster business industry secretary having announced in the Britannic fanfare that the U.K. was going to secure 10 million does before the end of the year that this is now being reduced to a couple of million doses.

      But maybe Chris’s cartoon is showing John Bull being injected with common or garden bleach as a world leading first.

      Seriously though, all the Britannic bullshit of being a world first comes with a grim reality. The Oxford Astra Zeneca miracle virus seems to have hit the buffers whilst the bold procurement announcement about 10 million inoculations by the end of the year has turned into a fairy story.

      Ah well, we shall now await the Brexit Bonanza – not!

    10. Sensibledave says:

      Bugger Le Panda

      Is it a negative ego trait to believe that one’s country is quite capable of a successful implementation of independence?

    11. Effijy says:

      And the Tory script goes to plan today.
      Bungling buffoon Boris saves the day by dropping
      his trousers to the EU and declares he has the World
      Leading, Oven Ready, Whack a Mole deal ever, ever.

      British Fish, formerly known as Scottish Fish will be sacrificed on
      the alter of All for the greater good of England.

      With our brands no longer protected you can look forward to French Whisky,
      Das Glas Wee Gin, and Los Drambuie.

    12. Sensibledave says:

      Effijy

      … and the Scottish First Minister has been so successful? Health, education, drugs, Independence?

    13. Intractable Potsherd says:

      Sensibledave says:
      5 December, 2020 at 8:04 am
      “Bugger Le Panda

      ” Is it a negative ego trait to believe that one’s country is quite capable of a successful implementation of independence”

      Most if us here *know* that our country is quite capable of “successful implementation of independence”. The difference is, we are talking about Scotland, you aren’t.

    14. Robert Louis says:

      I think it is important to always remember, this is ENGLAND’S brexit. Scotland voted asgainst it, in every single consituency in Scotland. Edinburgh was 75% against. Yet here we are, with Scots being forcibly stripped of their EU citizenship and human rights by an English Tory government.

      If England wants to leave the EU, they should, but they should not be forcibly dragging Scotland with them.

      No wonder their is now a solid majority for independence in Scotland. The sooner we are freed from Engl;and’s shackles, the better.

    15. Willie says:

      And with Brexit only days away would it be wrong to somehow suspect that the big yellow NHS bus carrying the promised weekly £350 million of additional funding will somehow get stuck in a post Brexit lorry port.

      The cheques will be in the post as they say!

    16. Sensibledave says:

      Robert Louis

      But, but, but, … the sovereign people of Scotland voted to remain part of the Union. Democracy sucks doesn’t it.

    17. Robert Louis says:

      Willia at 0816am,

      Indeed, It will end up sitting in the kent lorry park, with all the other lorries, awaiting customs paperwork and tariff payments.

    18. Willie says:

      Too right Effigy @ 8.07.

      Scottish produce has been destroyed. It is now blanket British produce covered by a Union Jack wrapper both physically and legislatively. All these years of carefully cultivated Scottish Branding gone.

      And the farmers, fishers, distillers, voted for it. Like British turkeys voting for Christmas they similarly voted. Ah well loss of income, potential bankruptcy, that’ll give em something to celebrate.

    19. McDuff says:

      Says it all Chris, brilliant.

    20. Johnny Martin says:

      England is already independent because it had the power to choose.

      It could choose to go into the EEC (as was) and could choose to leave the EU.

      I’m not myself a particular EU fan but this fantasy the English are telling themselves about “becoming independent” is just that, a fantasy. They gave up certain powers that perhaps it wasn’t wise to give up but have been free to take them back again. Thus England was always independent and we will see whether, given the changing nature of politics, it was wise to take those powers back again.

      That’s the reality of how this worked. Freely in, freely out, always with the independence to choose either way.

    21. Robert Louis says:

      So here we are, week until brexit, and the Tories in London, England, still have no idea of whether their will be a trade deal or not with Europe. In terms of gross incompetence, it really is incredible.

      Scotland did not vote for this, and we were promised that if we vorted against independence in 2014, it would ensure we stayed in the EU.

      No wonder most Scots now want independence, and the end of this odious, abusive, undemocratic, one-sided, so-called ‘union’ with England.

    22. Robert Louis says:

      Effijy at 0807am,

      Exactly. Boris the English clown, the man with no plan and zero intelligence. A fool for all seasons.

      Scotland wants no part of it.

    23. Willie says:

      Thinking about all those syringes sitting beside John Bull I could help but think about that Great British brand of bleach that was Domestos.

      And can anyone remember the advertising tag line of …… “ cleans round the bend “

      Just the stuff for John Bull and the rest of the English Brexiteers.

    24. Sensibledave says:

      Robert Louis

      Anyone with a brain has known all along that no deal would be agreed until the very last minute. Only those without knowledge, experience, ability or even a smattering of worldliness could have thought otherwise.

      There will be a deal, it might even be after the “last minute” (ie some sort of holding deal).

      If there isn’t a deal, on Jan 1st, french and Spanish fishing boats will not be allowed in British waters! It is a very small part of everything, but it is one small example of why there will be a deal,

      Tick tock Mr Barnier.

    25. kapelmeister says:

      John Bull coming to his senses is about as likely as that shit of a Windsor prince talking to the FBI.

    26. Breeks says:

      Robert Louis says:
      5 December, 2020 at 8:15 am
      I think it is important to always remember, this is ENGLAND’S brexit. Scotland voted asgainst it, in every single consituency in Scotland. Edinburgh was 75% against. Yet here we are, with Scots being forcibly stripped of their EU citizenship and human rights by an English Tory government.

      Brexit isn’t an example of Democracy. Brexit is an example of subjugation; one nation imposing it’s colonial will upon another.

      Sadly, the reason Scotland is being subjugated is not through the might or right of our deranged colonial subjugator, but because our own weak and constitutionally illiterate Scottish Government decided to capitulate to will of Westminster when they held all the necessary cards to secure Scottish Independence.

    27. kapelmeister says:

      Sensibledave

      Daily Mail talk must make you blend in down there. In a Scottish forum it just marks you down as an idiot.

    28. The Isolator says:

      Marvellous as always Chris.

      Not so sensible Dave bringing a heady mix of Comedy and irony to proceedings with his tick tock above.

    29. Effijy says:

      English media are setting the tone that the 27 EU nations
      will fold for fear of losing a war mongering nation built on
      lies and corruption?

      Whatever transpires today it will prove to be another blow for Scotland
      but nobody is listening.

    30. kapelmeister says:

      Breeks @8:43 am

      I’m afraid that last paragraph is the crux of the matter. We are not so much being dragged out the EU against our will as being dragged out the EU because of the SNP government’s lack of will.

    31. Willie says:

      You are absolutely right Breeks to remind us that Ms Sturgeon let us down on Brexit.

      She had no mandate to concede Scotland’s exit from the EU. The people of Scotland voted in a referendum to stay in the EU, the SNP were in both Westminster and Hollyrood given repeated mandates to keep us in the EU.

      And now it a few days were are out. But now is not the time or so she said. We’ve a virus to fix. Maybe she should get the bleach injection along with her chum John Bull.

    32. Al says:

      The NEC of the SNP got its injections of those last Monday evening.

    33. Astonished says:

      Great Cartoon.

      Like most I would have much preferred the SNP fought this rather than bleated about it.

      I hate political liars and blackford is now a political liar. We are being dragged out the EU against our will.

      I expect the NEW (hopefully improved) NEC to start doing stuff. about the above, soon.

    34. kapelmeister says:

      We should have an EU exit advent calendar. Then we can open a window each day to see what valuable thing Scotland is losing.

      We can at least console ourselves with the thought of Sturgeon and Murrell losing their jobs soon. Losing their liberty too, should justice prevail.

    35. Johnny Martin says:

      Effigy:

      My favourite is the line that “but Boris holds all the cards because he won an election last December so they’ll have to give in!”.

      They really appear to believe that Italian, French, German etc politicians must bow and scrape to Boris because English folk voted for him. That these folk have people in their own countries and take their own mandates from *them* appears not to occur to these self-absorbed idiots.

    36. Andy Ellis says:

      Nailed it again Chris, bravo!

      Let’s hope for 2 things in current weeks: a further uptick in pro-independence numbers in the event of a no deal brexit, and the continued political defenestration of the gradualists and TWA from the SNP leadership, then the membership as a whole.

    37. John Jones says:

      Sensible Dave says
      All the European fishing boats will be kept out of our waters?
      And who is going to stop them? With our 5 fishing patrol boats to cover all the many square miles of fishing waters.
      Someone’s still living in the days of hope and glory.idiot!

    38. Dorothy Devine says:

      oh! looky ,looky! Someone has changed their name.

    39. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ian B, just caught up with the piece you linked to last night – just about covers my thinking and doesn’t stop it being terrifying.

    40. Ronald Fraser says:

      Senseless Dave

      One of the things that is keeping a spring in my step during this shit Virus lockdown is watching engerland go down the toilet pan.

      Hopefully never to be seen or heard of ever again.

      And I honestly honestly mean that, no bullshit here Dave.

    41. Sensibledave says:

      John Jones

      Ah … so EU member countries will just break international law. Let me make a note of that.

    42. Sensibledave says:

      Ronald Fraser

      I am not surprised at your antipathy towards folk of another country. There’s a word for people who think like you.

    43. Kenny says:

      Like!

    44. Bob Mack says:

      European countries will not break International law.

      European fishermen will.

    45. Liz g says:

      Dorothy Devine @ 9.24
      But the more thing change the more they stay the same. Aye !!!
      🙂

    46. Caroline Corfield says:

      Re- breaking international law. The only ‘country’ doing that is the UK wrt Good Friday Agreement. Individual fishing boats and companies already do break international law in fishing grounds, you don’t hear much about it because they don’t get caught at it. It’s a big sea and these are relatively small boats, who can turn off their location devices when they want to.
      It will take a damn sight more than 5 vessels to patrol the UK fishing grounds. After all it was a tweet that alerted the MOD to the presence of the Russian fleet taking shelter in the Moray Firth, what hope do we have of noticing a wee fishing boat.

      Of course certain UK fishermen will sell the licences to EU et al, and the government will encourage the rest to sell up, as it’s already doing to sheep farmers who won’t be able to export live sheep (animal welfare while waiting in those queues), and will see their industry collapse.

      Yay, Brexit!

    47. Sensibledave says:

      So, I haven’t contributed much in recent times as most of the threads were very much of an “internal” nature. I note that the same old antipathy aimed at English folk soon comes to the surface when the opportunity arises – this time prompted by a rather grotesque cliched caricature of an “enemy” … a bit like in Germany back in the 1930s.

      You do make me smile. Folk who imagine themselves to be righteous, intelligent and worldly – actually driven by shallowness and antipathy – actually wanting to, needing to, revel in the demise of their neighbours, because they didn’t win a democratic vote.

      I am sure the floaters in Scotland will find that approach most attractive.

    48. Liz g says:

      Sensible Dave @ 9.36
      There is … Stan.. I think 🙂

    49. Caroline Corfield says:

      I find it most amusing that one can go from lauding a democratic vote cross the UK as “the country” to then complaining that the actual country within the UK who due to sheer weight of numbers gets what it wants regardless, is being singled out for criticism as though Scotland is simultaneously simply a large county of England, to an already independent nation that somehow can’t leave the apron strings of Mamma England. Which is it?

    50. Dorothy Devine says:

      Caroline , oh he is a ONE that One!

      Liz , remarkable you noticed the similarity too!!

    51. Does the picture frighten you sensibledave,

      do you recognise yourself in the picture,

      the great brutish john bull that`s you sensibledave.

    52. Ronald Fraser says:

      Brilliant toon Chris

    53. Meg merrilees says:

      Breeks28.43

      when all is said and done let it not be forgotten that Westminster MP’s had the Tory Government over a barrel a year ago and all it needed was a vote of ‘No confidence’ which was ultimately vetoed by Jo Swinson – the erstwhile Lib Dem leader – who did not want to take a risk on a government of National Unity led by Corbyn ( even though it would only have been for a few weeks).

      “Where there is no vision the people perish”

      I wonder if things would be any different had we gone down that path?

    54. Meg merrilees says:

      Dorothy, Liz,

      Oh dear, the visitors haven’t timed their jeering comments very well this morning have they?

    55. Ronald Fraser says:

      Notice the amount of creeps that crawl out of their own arseholes when “Nikla Bad” is off the agenda.

      Aye you!!!

      Sturgeonistas,,, you can spot them a mile away.

      Stu does all the heavy lifting, exposing the Sturgeon/Murrell dictatorship, and these parasites try to claim all the glory.

      Take a hike Sturgeonites,,, your leader is finished.

      A bit like engerland I suppose.

      End of a nightmare era.

    56. kapelmeister says:

      Sensibledave

      “I haven’t contributed much in recent times”

      Or indeed ever.

    57. Liz g says:

      Dorothy Devine @ 10.28
      LOL …. tis Dorothy and even more so because such things are usually so far beneath me . 🙂
      Ah well such is life … Que Sera Sera

    58. ` Moscow began distributing the Sputnik V COVID-19 shot via 70 clinics on Saturday, marking Russia’s first mass vaccination against the disease, the city’s coronavirus task force said.

      The task force said the Russian-made vaccine would first be made available to doctors and other medical workers, teachers and social workers because they ran the highest risk of exposure to the disease.`

    59. Liz g says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 10.41
      No they have not Meg …. the desperation has overridden what little sense they had.
      Ye have tae wonder what their reaction will be to that upcoming Yes vote … what fun… 🙂

    60. Liz g says:

      Scot Finlayson @ 11.00am
      I’ve often wondered about Cuba !
      They have quite a good health service as I understand it and could be an indicator of what’s really the case with the vaccine .

    61. dan macaulay says:

      Being cartoon Saturday,
      & playing the name game from the previous thread;

      instead of YesCaesar!,
      how about

      Yes2Scotland

      as in

      Yes2Scotland’s Independence

      &/or

      Yes2Scotland’s Freedom
      Yes2Scotland a’ Europe
      Yes2Scotland’s Currency
      Yes2Scotland’s Kingdom
      Yes2Scotland E’body
      Yes2Scotland Ma Ain

      &/or

      Yes2Scotland’s Sovereignty
      Yes2Scotland ‘s Crown
      Yes2Scotland’s Own
      Yes2Scotland’s Thrown
      Yes2Scotland’s Land
      Yes2Scotland Aye
      Yes2Scotland Now
      Yes2Scotland’s Destiny

    62. kapelmeister says:

      Three days and we get a look at the Seldom Seen Div as he appears before the inquiry. Too bad they can’t grill him about his strange accounting methods as well as his What’s App messages.

    63. Bob Mack says:

      @Dan ,

      Scot free ?

    64. Jim Thomson says:

      FFS people STOP FEEDING THE TROLL

    65. Republicofscotland says:

      An absolute belter Chris, and speaking of belters.

      This vile creature just doesn’t know when to shut up, this though really does take the biscuit.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18923203.neil-oliver-claims-scottish-independence-infringe-human-rights/

    66. Doug says:

      Excellent cartoon. John Bull England is beyond hope. No amount of vaccines can replace its innate xenophobia. The pricks can’t help it. And the so-called united kingdom remains a sick joke.

      As the polls from months back showed, brexit, whether a face-saving sham or a no-deal one, will boost support for Scotland’s independence, and rightly so.

      Independence is the only cure for Scotland.

    67. Iain More says:

      Only blood sucking vampirism gets left.

    68. Daisy Walker says:

      Left a message Off Topic re ‘peaceful presence’ outside Holyrood.

      The Travel Ban from other areas – may be an issue. Can folk cast a ken speckled eye over the post. Be interested in the thoughts.

      Catching up on the other articles and comments. YES NOW. By happy coincidence I have 1000 metres of barrier tape with the words

      BRITAIN ISN’T WORKING – YES NOW down the middle

      and – BROKEN VOW – BREXIT CHAOS as header and foot.

      It’s moment would appear to have arrived.

      At this stage, I don’t think it matters what we call it. The issue has never dropped from the front page of importance with the electorate – no matter what side they’re on.

      I side with keeping it short and snappy, if only to make it easier to write on signs.

      One thought – if a people presence becomes a no go outside Holyrood – how do people feel about a Convoy – Bikers for YES type protest.

    69. Liz g says:

      Jim Thompson @ 11.27
      Your right of course Jim …A waste of everyone’s time .. Will stop now 🙂
      Thanks for the reminder xxx

    70. John Alexander Ferguson says:

      It seems nothing will penetrate that empirical hide.

    71. Republicofscotland says:

      We had the union’s messiah (Gordo Brown) wheeled out during the week, rambling on about how federalism is now the way forward for the UK. Hot on his heels, was the millionaire knight of the realm and leader of the Labour party Sir Keir Starmer, push the idea of a Devo-Max plan, which as we all know is really just the Vow 2.0.

      Surely we won’t fall for this nonsense and deceit again.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18922744.scottish-independence-keir-starmers-devo-max-plan-blasted-the-vow-2-0/

    72. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The following letter was written by a former vice-president of Pfizer. It’s the same guy who was being discussed in the link I posted last night so perhaps those who went off on one may find this presentation of the same material more to their liking.

      “Dear Mr. Hancock,

      I have a degree in Biochemistry & Toxicology & a research based PhD in pharmacology. I have spent 32 years working in pharmaceutical R&D, mostly in new medicines for disorders of lung & skin. I was a VP at Pfizer & CEO of a biotech I founded (Ziarco – acquired by Novartis). I’m knowledgeable about new medicine R&D.

      I have read the consultation document. I’ve rarely been as shocked & upset.

      All vaccines against the SARS-COV-2 virus are by definition novel. No candidate vaccine has been in development for more than a few months.

      If any such vaccine is approved for use under any circumstances that are not EXPLICITLY experimental, I believe that recipients are being misled to a criminal extent.

      This is because there are precisely zero human volunteers for whom there could possibly be more than a few months past-dose safety information. My concern does not arise because I have negative views about vaccines (I don’t), Instead, it’s the very principle that politicians seem ready to waive that new medical interventions at this, incomplete state of development- should not be made available to subjects on anything other than an explicitly experimental basis. That’s my concern.

      And the reason for that concern is that it is not known what the safety profile will be, six months or a year or longer after dosing.

      You have literally no data on this & neither does anyone else.

      It isn’t that I’m saying that unacceptable adverse effects will emerge after longer intervals after dosing. No: it is that you have no idea what will happen yet, despite this, you’ll be creating the impression that you do.

      Several of the vaccine candidates utilise novel technology which have not previously been used to create vaccines. There is therefore no long term safety data which can be pointed to in support of the notion that it’s reasonable to expedite development & to waive absent safety information on this occasion.

      I am suspicious of the motives of those proposing expedited use in the wider human population. We now understand who is at particularly elevated risk of morbidity & mortality from acquiring this virus.

      Volunteers from these groups only should be provided detailed information about risk / benefit, including the sole point I make here. Only if informed consent is given should any EXPERIMENTAL vaccine be used.

      I don’t trust you. You’ve not been straightforward & have behaved appallingly throughout this crisis.

      You’re still doing it now, misleading about infection risk from young children. Why should I believe you in relation to experimental vaccines?

      Dr. Michael Yeadon

      https://www.globalresearch.ca/top-pfizer-whistleblower-trashes-company-vaccine-breakthrough-spin/5729650

    73. Eddie Munster says:

      Got a flyer from Jackie Ballie delivered by the postman this morning. Financed by parliamentary resources, no mention of the labour party she works for, this a thing now?

    74. DaveL says:

      On the names thing, I’m thinking ‘Go Scotland’ might work. It says what needs to be done now re independence (works for sport and tourism too) and many south of the border, for different reasons would agree.

    75. Pete says:

      Mock Brexit, Brexiteers, England as much as you like but they are at least going through with what the vote demanded. We’re leaving, no ifs, no buts, deal or no deal,we’re leaving.
      Quite a contrast to Blackford, Sturgeon and the rest with their tough talk but no action.
      Sensible Dave has a point.

    76. Bob Mack says:

      “Sensible dave has a point”.

      It’s right at the top of his head I believe.

    77. Beaker says:

      @Ian Brotherhood says:
      5 December, 2020 at 11:54 am

      He has a point about politicians waiving things through. The R101 airship should never have been issued an airworthy certificate. However, the government ignored this because the R100, despite technical issues, was doing far better than the R101. And we all know what happened next.

    78. Bob Mack says:

      @Republicofscotland,

      Yes I saw that. It is Boris moving to negate any legal challenge to his actions. He could do whatever he wished with no restraint.

      What are the SNP doing? Zilch.

    79. Iain More says:

      Darn I still cant get that vampirism out of them. I just got a leaflet from Douglas Red Card Ross in the post today. I wonder how much that cost the Scottish tax payer. It is the second leaflet in two months.

    80. Republicofscotland says:

      I don’t know if anyone posted an article on it but journalistic giant Robert Fisk died on the 2nd of December.

      https://consortiumnews.com/2020/12/02/robert-fisk-courage-in-covering-israel/

    81. velofello says:

      Barnier’s knockout punches concerning a UK deal over fishing access is – “And what is the view of Scotland? And secondly, if Scotland opts for independence does your proposed deal hold?

    82. iain mhor says:

      @Effigy 8:07 am

      With regards to the fishing: most focus on French and Spanish agitation, but it’s the Danes who are the drivers of much of the discontent and the Danes who are being levered by the EU in negotiations.

      It won’t be the UK fleet ‘sacrificed’ so much as it will be the North Sea fleet – the negotiations are centering around access to ‘historic’ herring grounds of the North Sea in exchange for access to fishing grounds around the Channel islands etc.

      Of course long treks to fishing grounds are normal nowadays; but the question as to whether the English fleet would benefit more than Scottish fleets for access to ‘new’ Channel Island grounds and whether the English fleet would welcome, with open arms, any Scottish trawlers making the trek into ‘their’ new Channel Island grounds, is hardly difficult to answer.

    83. Sensibledave says:

      Caroline 10.30

      … I’ll take you through this slowly Caroline as you are clearly not the sharpest.

      Unlike the folk of the rest of the U.K., fol in Scotland had the opportunity to democratically decide whether they wanted to be in the U.K., or not. The chose to be part of the Union.

      With me so far?

      All the folk in the United Kingdom were then given the opportunity to give their preference on whether to leave the EU or Remain. I voted remain. If everyone in Scotland had also voted with me, the U.K. would have remained.

      Because they didn’t, we are leaving.

      Please let me know if you think any of the above is incorrect (it’s not!).

    84. Stuart MacKay says:

      dan macaulay

      How about Yes4Scotland – it’s twice a good 😉

      Good idea though. Dare I say it’s not stodgy and you took the trouble to map out the connotations and usage. Now for my own feeble attempts:

      For Scotland
      Scotland First

      If you’re not For Scotland or think Scotland should not be First then your working against your country and it’s people – slightly problematic in tone but it has potential to silence the Yoons or at least make a mockery of them.

      Why aren’t you for Scotland?
      Why do you think Scotland shouldn’t be first? I’d like to hear the answer to this one.

      Then there are some more imaginative ones:

      Fuck You Boris!

      And last, but not least:

      So long and thanks for all the fish!

      Dan’s is better because you can do a lot with the imagery. Also it’s disposable – which means once the job is done it can be discarded. None of that trying to position the SNP to still be alive post independence – that’s why Nicola hates the ‘N’ word so much – it means that “Look at me” comes with an automatic expiration.

      As for Neil Oliver well, he can just apply for an English passport. Then he’ll have freedom of movement throughout these Sceptred Isles. I’m sure Priti Patel will be more than happy to grant him one – as long as he has enough points and grovels sufficiently.

    85. David Ferguson says:

      Sensibledave says:
      5 December, 2020 at 9:36 am

      I am not surprised at your antipathy towards folk of another country. There’s a word for people who think like you.

      English

    86. Bob Mack says:

      It’s difficult to comprehend just how xenophobic the English are bocoming. They hate just about everybody these days.

      Scotland was told the only way we could remain in the EU was if we voted to be part of the UK first and forsmost.

      Fair enough we did that. Then if course the rules changed.
      Scotland could no longer be part of Europe because England chose to keep the ball and not let foreigners play.

      Again Scotland lost out .

      They keep changing the rules to suit themselves all the while telling us it’s what the majority wanted.

      We chose to remain European in both cases but that is not respected and never could be by those who trumpet l
      Land of Hope and Glory.

    87. Mark Fletcher says:

      The English are undoubtedly a great people (led by donkeys). We must do what we can to help them stand on their own two feet. It will be difficult for them because they have not done this for many centuries. Psychologically, it will hurt them beyond telling.

    88. Ronald Fraser says:

      English media running with a Russia Bad story today.

      It all started because engerland thought they were going to be the first country in the known Universe to administer a coronavirus vaccine.

      But the good old Ruskies pipped them to it.

      They started giving their citizens the vaccine today.

      But the BBC and Sky News are telling us that their vaccine has not been fully tested and therefore shouldn’t count.

      The english are one of the most bitter and childish Nations on Earth when it comes to trying to be first.

      And as for the Russian vaccine not being fully tested,,,no vaccine, anywhere in the world has been “fully tested”.

      The english just detest the whole world.

      They are the most racist nation on Earth.

      I am so so glad they are going down the toilet pan.

      America’s 51st State will not be missed.

    89. Saffron Robe says:

      I remember reading somewhere that Michel Barnier had previously raised the point with the UK government that investment in Scotland’s fishing industry should be along national lines. I have also made the point elsewhere that any trade deals the EU signs with the UK over Scotland’s resources will become redundant upon independence.

      It is very sad that when the EU are doing everything they can to help us towards independence, we have a leader who is unable to respond to their overtures. Wouldn’t it be funny though if it was the EU who are forced to look into the Treaty of Union as part of the trade negotiations, and who then discover that the Treaty of Union is no longer legally binding?

    90. Ronald Fraser says:

      Question of the day:-

      “WTF does Scotland need England for?”

    91. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Some people just have too much time on their hands typing in covid is a hoax conspiracy, don’t they sighs.

      Trouble with covid denialism

      Unherd.com/2020/11/the-trouble-with-covid-denialism

    92. Fireproofjim says:

      Regarding the Scottish deep sea fishing fleet, I have no sympathy for them
      They are mostly owned by a very few extremely wealthy families in the North East who employ the cheapest of Philippine labour and have frequently been heavily fined for cheating on their quotas.
      They show no regard for sustainability of fish stocks, always demanding the right to fish as much as they want, wherever and whenever they can.
      To compound the issue they all voted against Independence in 2014 and for Brexit in 2016.
      They are the enemies of Independent Scotland.
      The inshore fishermen are different. Mostly small concerns employing their own family and fishing sustainably.

    93. Sensibledave says:

      Ronald Fraser

      … So much garbage to unpick from one comment.

      As with so many of the wokeratti, you demonstrate your desire to use identity politics to try and make some half arsed point. Stereotyping all the good folk of England because you disagree with what some identified folk said, is the very personification of stupid, silly, identity politics.

      I keep expecting better from folk here … but no, it’s the same old thinly disguised r*c**m.

    94. Bob Mack says:

      England doesn’t do identity politics ?

      Ha he ha ha. Nothing I can say then haha ha !!!

    95. Ronald Fraser says:

      AYRSHIRE NOB 2.07pm

      If your doctor tells you he is going to inject you with the Rat’s Pish that is in the English Oxford vaccine, you would say “go right ahead Doc”?

      If so, you are more of a lunatic than even I thought you were.

      Stick to posting shite about Trump.

      Or maybe we should be encouraging you to take the english rat’s pish.

      Might be our only way of getting shot of you.

    96. boris says:

      https://caltonjock.com/2020/11/28/keir-starmer-aided-by-the-john-smith-foundation-to-launch-their-assault-on-scotland/

      He is also rumoured to be planning to base himself in Scotland, in the weeks before, during and after the election displacing Richard Leonard who might be forced to give up his role as leader of the Labour Party in Scotland.

      So a full-on fightback is in the wind and I expect the John Smith Foundation and its supporters will muster all guns in their support. This is a do or die moment in their history and the 5th columnists and 77 Brigade will be actively undermining the Scottish nationalist campaign. Read on and get a more informed view of past events.

    97. Ronald Fraser says:

      Senseless Dave

      Did you answer the question at 2.06pm today???

    98. Sensibledave says:

      Bob Mack

      … sadly Bob, we have our fair share of numpties too. The difference is, our numpties don’t all congregate in one place to spend all their time and energy repeatedly blaming folk from one of the other home nations for their current situation.

      As I may have mentioned before, just go through a few of the comments above, where you see the word “English” imagine the word say, “Pakistani” … and see how it reads.

      I’m surprised at you Bob. Had you down as being one of the brighter ones here.

    99. Hatuey says:

      Ian Brotherhood, Dr. Michael Yeadon, the guy you pin so much inverted hope on, also insists that coronavirus is what he calls a “fake pandemic”.

      In the article you link to, he states: “Several of the vaccine candidates utilise novel technology which have not previously been used to create vaccines.”

      This is not true; mRNA vaccines have been the subject of research, development, trials, and use since around 1990. In 30 years since then, scientific research has been devoted to not only making the technology more efficacious but safer.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5906799/

      There’s plenty of information available online about this which makes me wonder why you are prone to these leaps of inverted faith.

      Actually, if you read the article I linked to, you’ll find out that mRNA is much safer than previous vaccine practices for reasons spelled out on this website by muscleguy a few days ago. Muscleguy knows his stuff but his contribution on this passed without much notice or any comment.

      In short, the materials they inject degrade in a matter of days, they have a very short lifespan within your system. Unlike vaccines of yesteryear, they don’t actually dose you with the virus itself, making them less risky; they inject part of the instruction set for making the virus which your immune system responds positively to.

      I don’t know anything about vaccines, just as I don’t know anything about cars. That’s why when my car breaks down, I get in touch with someone who knows about cars.

      When your car breaks down do you go on YouTube or your favourite conspiracy website or do you call a mechanic? That’s an honest question, btw – if it seems ridiculous, it’s a reflection of the ridiculousness of the attitude and approach you bring to these things.

    100. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      I don’t believe the Oxford vaccine is available yet Ronald Stanley Broadwood Fraser .

      Maybe we should refer to you as the comedian, Norman Stanley Fletcher, but that would be a dis service to a funny guy, unlike you.

    101. Andy Ellis says:

      @Sensibledave & Ronald Fraser

      It’s like watching two bald men fighting over a comb with you two and the (mercifully) rather few who think as you do.

      Neither country is devoid of its share of bigots and racists: however baleful their influence it should neither be overstated nor underestimated.

      As a pro-indy Scot who spent half my life in England, attended universities in both countries, worked in various industries in both countries, married an English woman (who is herself now pro-independence), had an English grandmother and has many English relatives, I’d have to say that not only are both of you wrong, but happily you are unrepresentative of the vast majority of ordinary folk in either place.

      It’s not easy to examine English society and their politics and point to its manifest flaws, but before getting too carried away with that, it’s also worth some introspection. When all is said and done, we are where we are because Scots lack the political balls to make hard choices, not just 2014 or (disastrously) failing to ensure the SNP held the balance of power in Westminster in 2017, but over generations.

      The reason Renton’s diatribe in Trainspotting gained popularity and notoriety is not only because it was funny, but because most Scots recognised it contained more than an element of truth. Throughout history Scots have often been their own worst enemies (which is hardly a uniquely Scottish trait in any case).

      Let’s not forget however that for all the negatives there are positives: we’re the nation of “a man’s a man for ‘a that” and the Enlightenment as well as the nation blighted by football sectarianism or institutional racism.

    102. Sensibledave says:

      Robert Fraser

      … no. It’s not for me to say.

      As with the majority of English folk, according to a recent poll, we don’t care whether Scotland is in or out of the Union. We don’t get to decide. When asked, the good folk of Scotland said they want to remain in the U.K., so that is why we are where we are.

      This discussion has been had before here. Some here have some sort of bastardised version of the Stockholm Syndrome, where Scots need to believe that English folk want to hold you in against your will. We really don’t.

    103. Bob Mack says:

      @Sensibledave,

      Come on Dave. You know this is a no win argument for you.

      We all harbour our share of bigots and racists and xenophobes.

      England however has gone begin the pale. Everybody demonised who is not Anglo Saxon, led in the main by the choirmasters of the media. They sing along to the tune.

      immigrants, refugees, Eastern Europeans, in the main despised down south. Black lives matter denounced. Racial attacks on Sikhs up 70% over this year alone. Synagogues defaced.

      Come on Dave. You may well be none of the above but you are only one of many millions who are. I laughed reading about all the ex late living abroad who voted for Brexit and now find themselves possibly barred from staying abroad full time.
      They are furious . They are British. They are arrogant. They are Brexiteers and elderly in need of medicare,and their chickens are coming home to roost.

    104. Robert graham says:

      Anyone know if Sensless arse wipes shift has finished yet ?
      Anyway here’s one for him and the rest of the shift
      On LBC the topic was fishing , caller after caller saying we I guess that’s we English should stand firm against these pesky foreigners, it started with UK fish , then moved on to British fish , then it was English fish and English quotas , it never once crossed the minds of these English callers that eh it wasn’t their bleedn fish they don’t own these fish and exactly where around these Islands they are caught ,it’s ours everything’s ours , Fish-Water-Electricity-you name it it’s ours
      Trust the barstuards , I wouldn’t piss on the robbing Jeremy Hunts
      So Sensless I don’t give a monkeys if or even what you think friend the sooner we get shot of this dead weight that’s holding us back , most Scots are fed up to the back teeth of hearing the winey English voices moan moan moan it’s ours we are exceptional our empire Duck off the lot of you .

    105. Ronald Fraser says:

      Andy Ellis 2.37pm

      You sound more english than the detested english.

      Rule Britannia, and all that!!!

    106. Sensibledave says:

      Andy Ellis

      … a very reasonable and well made comment Andy.

      I pop up every now and again to hold up a mirror to many of the loonies that gather here amongst a smaller number of sane folk.

      Even on sites dedicated to a particular cause, contributors will now slap down those that make stupid or r*c**t comments … but not here. So every now and again, I do.

    107. Ronald Fraser says:

      Andy Ellis and Senseless

      WTF is it with these “Hug a Morris Dancer”
      Messages???

      Away and take a hike!!!

    108. Willie says:

      Just been reading that the British Government’s Moonshot Programme lateral flow COVID tests have been discovered to be failing to identify 50% of infected people.

      Makes you question who in the Tory Party and their chums got glad handed contracts to supply this absolutely outrageously defective testing regime. Operation Moonshine more like. No wonder Chris’s cartoon John Bull looks as if he’s been drinking the moonshine.

      Either that or he’s delirious at the thought of the undetected care workers and the like carrying COVID back into the nursing and care homes to slaughter another wave of old folks. Another Tory dividend – but like the dodgy PPE, someone’s making big bucks.

    109. Republicofscotland says:

      The unions foot soldiers in Scotland have produced two Christmas cards one shows the piccy of a snowman, with the caption below sNOw Surrender.

      https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18922416.orange-order-release-snow-surrender-rudolph-orange-nosed-reindeer-christmas-cards/

    110. Bob Mack says:

      Andy,

      Do you know that hundreds of Asians and Chinese have suffered abuse down south because it was rumoured they were spreading Covid. Just a rumour, justified by the media reporting that Asians spread it because they all live together in dodgy conditions and the Chinese came to Universities and brought it with them.

      Attacks on minorities up 70% in the last year . People believe this rubbish and will act on it.
      I remember a seemingly normal middle aged women being interviewed who thought the Royal Navy should sink refugee boats mid Channel without a hint of guilt. “Nobody asked them to come” quoth she.

    111. Sensibledave says:

      Bob Mack

      … you are still doing it Bob!

      You are citing instances and then suggesting they are representative.

      I can’t remember the exact numbers but, something like, 55% of Londoners, England’s capital, identify as non white. This compares to 8% in Edinburgh. I think the figure for our second city, Birmingham, is in the 30s. Are there instances of racism? Yes! But by far, we get all get along just fine. A more cosmopolitan, integrated and settled society would be hard to find.

      So keep your nasty stereotypes to yourself Bob. You have now demonstrated that you know little of England or the English.

    112. Willie says:

      Dodgy PPE, dodgy Great British Oxford vaccine and now dodgy lateral flow tests.

      Ah, the money making whirl never ends for the Tory elites. Pity about the poor sods at the grubby end. Or is it a pity, I mean they voted for it.

      Jeepers, we’d march into the gas ovens for these bastards. We really would. Like lambs to the slaughter. Ah well we can all take comfort in singing the Britannic equivalent of the Horst Vessel song.

      Should be sung at every COVID funeral in fact!

    113. Sensibledave says:

      Andy Ellis

      Oops! Sorry Andy, as a result of presenting a reasonable and well made point … you are now their enemy!!!

    114. Col.Blimp IV says:

      I personally don’t give a rats arse whether Scotland is in the EU or not. I have feigned approval of the EU for as long as it has been SNP policy to do so.

      That contract teminates when, on Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackfords watch, Scotland is torn from the EU against it’s will

      When we as part of the UK joined, all that happened was that prices went up and democratic accountability went down.

      Firstly because of the exploiters taking advantage of the change to decimal currency. Then the introduction of VAT and the CAP and other forms of centralised controls and industrial quotas.

      The fishing industry was all but destroyed and the Steel industry at least in Scotland was likewise, inflation and unemployment rocketed, mitigated only by emigration.

      This was all concurrent with the bonanza that was taking place in the North sea oil industry.

      Scotland … The only country to discover oil and become poorer!

      The SNP at the time were mostly hostile the the EEC as it was called at the time. It’s only saving grace being that Winnie Ewing managed to get “Regional Aid” for her highland constituency because it was deemed a deprived peripheral area with poor infrastructure much in need of handouts.

      Then along came ALex – He spotted a flaw in the unionist argument which cast doubt on how Scotland would get on in the world, cast adrift from the UK and exploited peoples natural fear of the unknown. – The elephant that had been lumbering around the room unseen by all of us, for twenty years.

      The day before independence day and the day after independence day, would not be all that different, both new countries would be partners in the EU, some power would migrate from Westminster to Holyrood but beyond that, any changes would be gradual, barely perceptible or non-existent depending on who controlled our respective governments.

      Thus was born “Independence in Europe” – A Tactic, A Ploy, Smoke and Mirrors, A Ruse … Not a fucking mission statement, an Oath written in blood or “The will of God” as you Remaniacs seem to believe.

      Do you have any contingency plan for when leaving the EU turns out to be a bit less apocalyptic than you have been claiming for the past three years?

      What are you going to do when Boris the Bogeyman is not around to frighten the children with?

      Where or is there a line when the hoops we must jump through to re-join the EU become unacceptable?

      Get a grip, we are supposed to be trying to build a better Scotland . Pledging your souls to the marginally less ugly than the American face of Global Capitalism, does not seem to me to be the best way of going about that.

      Hail Caesar! would appear a most appropriate battle cry for the EU’ers – Who think the Treaty of Rome trumps the Treaty of Arbroath.

    115. Republicofscotland says:

      Alex Salmond’s fantastic idea for a Scottish Pension Fund, that would see energy companies hand over a portion of their profits they generate to the Scottish state, and in return they would get the go ahead for future projects, a model similar to Norway’s would see Scotland’s coffers swell by billions.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/18922776.alex-salmonds-energy-fund-scotland-reach-billions/

    116. Bob Mack says:

      @Dave,

      Racists come in all colours. Racists feel superior to any colour. It’s not always about colour. It’s about feeling you are better than others for many reasons including historical achievements. Like Empire, Brittania rules the waves etc.

      Irish can be white but deemed thick. Scots can be white but are deemed boozers And mean

      And the Welsh sing a !ot don’t they ?

      You see how it works.!

    117. dan macaulay says:

      a wee clue Stuart MacKay-

      Yes2Scotland’s

      S overeignty
      C rown
      O wn
      T hrown
      L and
      A ye
      N ow
      D estiny

    118. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Sensibledave

      Ronald is our resident village idiot.He doesn’t know if his name is Ronald or Stanley on any given day. It depends very much on how much of the Eldorado or QC he has consumed .He really shouldn’t be drinking at twelve,but hey ho am sure there’s plenty of twelve year olds that drink the rang stuff down south too in your village eh.

    119. X_Sticks says:

      Just a wee thought.

      Apparently we are going to have the army inoculating us.

      We are going to be inoculating through brexit and the Scottish election window.

      Can anyone think of any reasons that the UK government would want to have troops widely scattered around the country through next year?

      Another thing. I don’t know that I want someone trained to use a gun to be inoculating me. I would much rather a member of the medical profession was doing it.

    120. Sensibledave says:

      Bob Mack

      You are making a valiant attempt to defend the indefensible … and failing.

      I do not feel superior to Scots or Irish or any other race Bob. You are just projecting your own prejudice. Ordinary folk in England do not care about empires of 100 and 200 years ago or Britannia, … you obviously do because you keep banging on about it.

      As you hang out in this echo chamber Bob, you have lost your grip on reality. The only reason Scotland isn’t an Independent nation … is because Scots didn’t want it.

    121. Confused says:

      I see captain sensible has flounced in complaining about anti english racism. (If someone accuses you of something, best to re-double the insult – its much more fun.)

      Anyway – the crux of that famous irvine welsh “renton rant” was not “its shite being scottish” (that was the hook), the payload was “colonised by wankers” … and you don’t need to be a lit crit word mangler to work it out.

      – a short tribute to a modern master …

      fuck having a country of 60M+ run entirely to the whims of 10000 people living in kensington, chelsea and mayfair

      fuck bbc costume dramas and wondering where the license fee went and if the director is a sex-case

      fuck the guardian while it peddles identity politics and shits on the working class natives of the country

      fuck the daily mail reading golf club bore pining for the glory of the world’s worst criminal enterprise

      fuck seeing huge natural resources pissed-away on vanity projects, tax breaks and london skyscrapers that would embarrass north korea

      fuck seeing your country simultaneously be used as a toxic waste dump and theme park and holiday village for foreigners

      fuck liberal democracy that wages constant war on anyone who objects to their exploitation

      fuck having 3 parties to vote for, with all the same policies

      fuck being a monarchy with a punch and judy show pretending to be a democracy

      fuck all for thee, but naught for me

      fuck being colonised by wankers

      fuck not choosing a better life

      fuck the union

    122. Andy Ellis says:

      @Bob Mack 3.08pm

      Citing a few examples and then generalising about it is never very helpful. Just as it wasn’t and isn’t legitimate for britnats to pick isolated examples of pro-indy folk going OTT or making offensive/racist comments in the run up to #indyref1 (and since) and then calumnize the whole movement or Scots in general, it isn’t legitimate to do it the English or anyone else.

      Of course any rise in attacks on minorities is abhorrent, and I have no doubts that recent developments politically have emboldened those who used to be too scared to exhibit let alone act on their underlying bigotry and racism. I saw it happening in the last few years before I left England in 2017, I saw the rise of UKIP and watched them get >30% in some local elections, but I also know that the vast majority of ordinary English folk aren’t like that, any more than you could find more than a tiny % of Scots who are genuinely bigoted or racist against the English (or indeed any other people).

      For every nutter who thinks it’s OK to say we should sink immigrant boats in the channel (still less actually believes it’s happen) there are vastly more who treat such folk with the contempt they deserve.

    123. Bob Mack says:

      @Sensibledave,

      Now be a good lad and check out what you have written on your own posts Dave then come back to me and tell me you are not conveying a sense of superiority Dave.

      You can’t help it as I said. Years of Empire ingrained

    124. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ronald Fraser

      Way to prove my point you utter rocket.

      “More English than the English”, “Hug a Morris dancer”.

      Are you on something, or have the voices in what passes for your imagination just gained the upper hand?

    125. Bob Mack says:

      @Andy Eliis,

      Oh that’s all right then if it’s only a minority. My mistake.

    126. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hatuey (2.30) –

      That link you provided is almost three years old.

      I don’t understand why you and a few others here get so enraged by anyone posting material which you don’t agree with.

      We’re all worried and casting about for answers to the obvious and troubling questions surrounding the hasty roll-out of this bloody thing.

      We should ignore Yeadon and non-mainstream broadcasters who dare challenge the whole thing, but we should listen to you dismissing all their concerns with such contempt?

      Please do yourself a favour and just scroll past my comments from now on.

    127. red sunset says:

      @Col Blimp IV

      Worryingly, I have to agree to a great extent with Colonel Blimp.
      WHAT IF – bear with me now – what if Brexit is not the immediate disaster that we’ve all been saying for the last three years or more?
      What if – there’s no food shortages?
      What if – our chemists still have enough medicines to go around?
      What if – the world still turns, London still takes all our taxes, and the buses still run?
      Where are we then? What’s our Plan B for attacking Boris Johnson?
      In any case, I’ve been saying for ages, any downsides and disasters after Brexit will be portrayed by the BBC as Covid related. Which in turn will make it Nicola Sturgeon’s problem.

      There’s a big storm coming along, but it may not be the one we’ve been expecting.

    128. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Sensibledave

      Aye, “Two Wold Wars and One World Cup” – as the theme from “The Dambusters” fades in…

    129. Graeme says:

      Re Sensibledave

      If we all just ignored him he would probably just go away

    130. Bob Mack says:

      @Colonel Blimp,

      I’m my lifetime on tv. All popular shows in the UK.

      It ain’t half not mum

      Love they neighbour

      Rising damp

      Father Ted

      Alf Garnett.

      All done to show our appreciation of minority groups. Oh how we laughed when some suggested they were racist. The nerve.

    131. Andy Ellis says:

      @Bob Mack

      So what point is it you’re trying to make here Bob? I’m genuinely interested.

      Is it that you feel the English are per capita more racist and bigoted than the Scots or any other nationalities? Are the French, Germans, Hungarians or Zulus better or worse?

      Are you actually convinced that Scots are uniquely less affected by such traits, or that it’s at much lower levels? On what evidence?

      I recall Rev Stu once quoted R. B. Cunninghame Graham’s words:

      “The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination.”

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/our-enemies-among-us/

      Have some imagination Bob. Be better.

    132. Bob Mack says:

      @Andy Ellis,

      See my previous post. I do have imagination. And memory.

    133. Ronald Fraser says:

      Andy Ellis

      Did you have a mammy called Ruthie???

      Coz you just kill me!!!

      Away back to twirling yer Morris Dancin’ stick.

    134. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ronald Fraser

      If only it were (metaphorically) that easy to get rid of zoomers like yourself Ronnie.

      Whilst I wouldn’t wish death on anyone, I imagine yours might be amongst obituaries I’d enjoy.

    135. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I asked Gordon Dangerfield if Scots law has an equivalent of ‘taking the 5th’ and, if so, could Peter Murrell try to use it on Tuesday?

      Here’s his reply:

      ‘It’s a difficult one, Ian. There’s a very longstanding privilege against self-incrimination in Scots law, which is now supported by the right to a fair trial under Article 6 of the ECHR but for obvious reasons it’s focused on the accused in criminal proceedings. How far back it goes for someone who might BECOME an accused in criminal proceedings if they are forced to answer questions in other proceedings is something of an open question.

      For example, the phone hacker Glenn Mulcaire tried to plead the privilege when he was being required to answer questions in civil proceedings and was unsuccessful. As usual in such cases, though, the English court made very clear that they were deciding the issue in the particular context of that case and were not laying down any general rules.

      None of this is to say that Murrell is in such a position of course, but as to the general approach he takes to the Committee’s questions, I guess we’ll just have to see what the expensive lawyers hired by him — and funded by the subscriptions of SNP members — have advised!’

    136. Col.Blimp IV says:

      red sunset

      I don’t think anyone has the answer to those questions, which is why we have been avoiding them.

      In my opinion when Ian Blackford made his “Scotland will not be torn out of the EU…” declaration in support of Nicola Sturgeons assertion that IndyRef2 was dependent on a significant material change in circumstances.

      The result of the Brexit Referendum should have been the starting pistol … Game and first set to Farage – New balls please, second set, Sturgeon to serve.

      A referendum binding on the UK government NOW! or if the Brits didn’t want to play – the Question put to a combined meeting of MP’s, MSP’s and MEP’s … Do you wish to ratify or annul the treaty of Union?

      We cant turn the Clock back and make it happen … but we are entitled to be told why it didn’t happen.

    137. Bob Mack says:

      In 2018 in Smethwick the first statue ever in the UK which honoured the contribution of all Asian soldiers in the First World war was erdcted.

      Only it was paid for and erected by the Asian community in the grounds of a Sikh Ghadwara. Not by the UK government.

      Isn’t that strange?

      After all there were millions of Indians who answered the call and who came to our aid at that time.

    138. Stuart MacKay says:

      red sunset

      Chris Grey’s most recent Brexit Blog, has a decent discussion on what’s coming, https://archive.is/hsLTk. It suggests that things are unlikely to explode so instead of a great shock the UK decay will be gradual and generally not obvious, mainly due to the disruption and cover affored by the pandemic. Employment in financial services will dwindle, export markets will dry up since it’s going to be a lot easier to buy from other EU countries than go through all the paperwork to get stuff from the UK, etc. etc.

      Come January 1st there will likely be queues at the ports and there will be some cheery coverage about how this is a sign that we’re free of the EU and how better things are to come. But the real damage will be long term and won’t make the papers. The UK will simply become more crap than it currently is.

      That’s the real danger for Scotland. There won’t be that sense of urgency that would be triggered as the store shelves started to empty so the government will keep asking for a Section 30 and Westminster will keep saying no and we’ll end up something like Belarus, bumping along on the fringes with no real dangers but no real prospects either.

    139. Lochside says:

      Andy Ellis PHD…I thought you had flounced off here because you were rumbled?…. alumnus apparently of St..Andrews Uni (England’s academic citadel in Scotland studying International Relations? Yet you can’t grasp Colonialism in action..by England over Scotland for 300 years?…Aye right! Scots do have the balls..but we’ve been lied to and run by tr*itors ever since 1707.

      Meet any MI5 recruiters at St Andrews? buddy? How about Babcocks?

      You are a fucking concern troll. BTW the Max Headroom gravatar sums you up…a plastic headed Keir Stammer lookalike fake.

      Y

    140. Muscleguy says:

      One of the places to get a blood sample from a mouse is the superorbital vein, just above the eye. I was a tail vein man though. The clinician should use the eye of John Unionist there instead of trying for an intramuscular injection.

      As a Scientist the resistance of much of the UK establishment to science, nay the contempt for and ignorance of science is dismaying. PPE graduates from Oxbridge taught to sneer at the scientists while still at university.

      They think themselves clever but in reality we see through them. Most of my colleagues were suitably contemptuous about most politics as a result. Voters but many floating.

    141. Sensibledave says:

      Col Blimp

      … you really don’t want to go there Col.

      Unless you are suggesting the thug wings of Celtic and Rangers fans are representative of the average Scot?

      I can’t believe that there are twats on here that actually believe that Scots are a superior race. Unbelievable.
      On the one hand we have a very unattractive caricature being used as an illustration of a people. Now you in effect claim Scotland are a superior race!
      Where are you ping with this Colnel?

    142. Andy Ellis says:

      @Lochside

      Another hard of thinking ranter. Misidentifying something as colonialism because you cant’t form a coherent argument doesn’t help what passes for your argument.

      Doesn’t take long for zoomers like you to come out with the T word Stu likes. Can’t be long before I’m compared to the Norwegian beginning with a Q, huh?

      I’m not sure you really understand what concern trolling is, but someone with your taste in bunnetry isn’t in any place to criticise other folks avatars.

      Still, could be worse, I could be a creepy fuck like you checking up on folk on line to find out where they work. That’s always a great look. I seem to remember the Daily Heil doing it to seven of us, including Rev Stu, back in the day. Bolt ya rocket.

    143. Bob Mack says:

      @Sensibledave,

      That’s because your English. Nobody,but nobody ,is more superior than that. We Scots know our place.

    144. Muscleguy says:

      I’ve been taking on a bevy of unionists on twitter over a Scottish Currency. It seems according to them we can’t have a monetary system at all. Currency union is out. Sterlingisation is crap (we agree there) and a Scottish currency is impossible (unlike virtually every country in the world (EU before Euro)).

      The ignorance on display has to be seen to be believed. Faux ignorance about the existence of Scottish banknotes, or the deposits in the BoE etc to back the issuance of the notes (even after citing the BoE’s own website that wasn’t good enough).

      I’ve blocked a lot of them after establiishing their ignorance credentials and futility in continuing to engage them. When you provide requested information and it’s rejected on spurious grounds. Prof Richard Murphy for eg is not good because he was once an accontant in, gasp! Norfolk. As it that was bad. Having worked his way up to a full professorship and an excellent book on taxation and a gig advising Scotgov (who don’t seem to be listening) to boot.

      The problem wih Prof Richard though is he supports our independence despite being an Englishman in London. He sees the progressive nature of the Yes movement. He know GERS is a crock of shit, put Kevin Vague in his place over it too and that we can mint and run our own currency perfectly well and that it is an essential tool to have. He is suitably scathing over Steringisation as well.

      I think we should give him honorary citizenship of Scotland after Indy for services rendered.

    145. Bob Mack says:

      It’s a funny old world when democracy becomes a tool of suppression rather than gauging the will of the people

      Of course it’s England that’s controlling that demkcracy,and they are very democratic. No?.

      Apparently it’s good to allow you to change your government every 5 ysars, but not to choose anything else.

    146. Ronald Fraser says:

      Lochside 4.32pm

      Very revealing insight into the life and times of Special Agent Andy (Ruthie) Ellis.

      His love of Engerland got the better of him.

    147. Ronald Fraser says:

      Would you fight to save the Queen and england???

      Or would you much rather fight for Scottish Independence???

    148. Andy Ellis says:

      @Muscleguy

      Hear, hear. Just a pity we have so many low voltage roasters like Ronald Fraser, Lochside & their ilk fouling the nest with their bile and bigotry.

      With friends like these etc…!

    149. Bob Mack says:

      Scots are a superior race?

      First Independence then world domination. We shall conquer Europe the Russia then China and teach them Scots history only rather than their own.

      Damn it. Somebody beat us to it.

      Oh well as can dream.

    150. Lochside says:

      Andy Ellis…ha ha ha…’bolt ya rocket’ and ‘roasters’….where’d ya get those Andy?..out of the ‘Quaint Scotch insults’handbook from your handlers?……try this: ‘go and take a fuck tae yersel ya chanty rasslin prick’….

      There I just did that for you.

    151. Bob Mack says:

      Why did England vote to leave the EU. CNN did a story on this.

      In every interview they conducted, nobody mentioned straight bananas or rules and regulations.

      In an age of austerity where many were suffering financial constraints they came to resent refugees and immigrants coming to the UK and being provided with education,free health care and money and accomodation.

      Most of it nonsense of course. People resenting what little others had because they felt they weren’t getting it themselves.

      That’s the real reason.

    152. CameronB Brodie says:

      There’s a fair amount of brain science now, re. Brexit, if anyone is interested. Anyhoo, here’s look at “Toward an Ecology of Social Action: Merging the Ecological and Constructivist Traditions”.

      https://www.humanecologyreview.org/pastissues/her82/82mclaughlin.pdf

      “In this article, I trace organizational sociology’s inability to develop a comprehensive framework integrating structure, agency and environment to the persistence of essentialism within the ecological tradition and nominalism within the constructivist tradition.

      Drawing on parallels with the Darwinian revolution, I argue that these impasses can be overcome through a combination of population thinking and a relational approach to categorization. This combination provides the metatheoretical foundation for an “ecology of social action” which merges organizational ecology and resource mobilization theory’s insights into structure-environment interactions with constructivists’ attention to agency, language, culture and power.

      The concept of a socially constructed adaptive landscape is put forward as a central metaphor for linking the ecological and constructivist traditions.”

    153. Beaker says:

      @X_Sticks says:
      5 December, 2020 at 3:36 pm
      Just a wee thought.
      “Apparently we are going to have the army inoculating us.”

      Military personnel being used ARE medically trained and experienced in administering inoculations ffs. Who do you think gives the military the various shots when embarking overseas?

    154. Ronald Fraser says:

      Beaker (yesindyref2)

      You have been doing this for years on Wings, trying to educate and convince us that the english armed forces are the good guys.

      Stop coming over all Anglo Saxon Beaker.

      Like Andy Ellis, you just can’t let go of the Mother Land.

      We don’t want the english army on Scottish soil, with their stinkin Butchers aprons stuck in their arms.

      “Brits Out”

      If I see an english army sojur on Scottish soil, I won’t be long in telling him to get his dirty stinkin Anglo Saxon arse out of Scotland.

    155. wee monkey says:

      Thought you lot were still celebrating “breaking woke” or has there been a sudden Reality Hit I missed?

    156. Ronald Fraser says:

      Wee monkey

      “You lot” ???????

      Whoever is “you lot” ????????

    157. Strathy says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 4.20pm.

      Thank you, Ian. Always good to hear Gordon Dangerfield’s opinion.

      Looking forward to his analysis of Somers’ evidence to the inquiry.

    158. t42 says:

      The corrupt UK and corrupt EU fighting over who will steal Scotlands fishing waters.
      Like 2 seagulls fighting over a spilt fish supper.

    159. Lenny Hartley says:

      X sticks, hows it going, long time No see,
      Re military inoculating Folk in Scotland, it no soodjers wae guns that will Be doing it but trained medics, the medical corp of the Brit Army are pretty well trained, i would not worry about it.

    160. Hatuey says:

      Ian Brotherhood: “Please do yourself a favour and just scroll past my comments from now on.”

      No. Actually, I’m going to scrutinise them even more carefully and thoroughly now.

      (I’m doing that gesture right now, with two fingers pointing at my eyes and then pointing at you…)

    161. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Sensibledave @4:46

      I cant see where you drew the conclusion from, that I implied the Scots were superior beings.

      As for the English, well I lived there for a few years in the Wilson/Heath era and I have traveled extensively there for work purposes, so have come across a good few boneheaded pompous stereotypes and the odd insular xenophobe and racist but in the main the people are no better or worse than they are anywhere else, Scotland included.

      But I have over the years noticed a change in the demographic.In the Provence’s there are two Englands, which are as close as it comes to a representation of parallel universes occupying the same space. In the urban areas there is a veritable melting pot of cultures, young ladies in pillar-box costumes are in abundance, bearded men wearing what appears to be pyjamas out doors in the dead of winter, made an even stranger sight by their yorkshire accents, former churches more likely to have become Islamic Centres than Wetherspoons and in every other shop window a poster advertising moneygrams to every corner of the globe.

      Whereas five or ten miles along the road in the sub-urban and semi-rural enclaves, you step back in time to an other England the England of Enid Blyton,Cricket on the village green, Terry and June, Margo and Gerry and Tom and Barbara Good, No black faces here and probably none welcome, a sort of plausibly deniable apartheid.

      The native Londoner has more or less become a stranger in his own land, Englishmen have become a minority in the city that sucks the wealth from his country … My kneejerk response would be to say “serves you fuckin right, ya Redcoat bastards” for what you did to the rest of the world in the preceding centuries. but that would be churlish, The sins of the fathers…and besides it’s the poor folk that have been dispossessed, I don’t suppose they faired much better than we did during the days of Empire..

    162. velofello says:

      @ Col.blimp IV: interesting observations:

      A dear Yorkshire friend, now deceased expressed the view that should you pose an awkward proposal to an English Southerner he will shrug his shoulders and offer no counter proposal; A Yorkshireman will complain; A Scot will forward his point of view.

    163. Hatuey says:

      As for the question about Murrell taking the 5th, I don’t understand it. The Inquiry has no real power. It’s a workplace Inquiry into a workplace investigation.

      And why would he draw attention to himself by refusing to speak instead of using it to further muddy the waters? He doesn’t even need to attend.

      People are looking for a smoking gun and a conspiracy. The government investigation itself as a whole provides that… actually, it is that.

      Does anyone think they pulled out all those stops so that they could slap Salmond in the back of the head at a workplace tribunal and say “don’t do it again, you naughty boy”?

      It wasn’t really a “battle” either. More a sort of Gulf of Tonkin incident – critically important to the war as a whole in terms of what it delivered and led to but minor in itself.

    164. Gfaetheblock says:

      FTAO Hatuey and Ian brotherhood

      Yeadon getting a solid ‘pants on fire’ status from politifacts, in previous clearly incorrect statements he has made on the pandemic.

      https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/02/blog-posting/former-pfizer-employee-wrong-coronavirus-pandemic-/

      I have no idea what his angle is, but he hard to take seriously if you read the above.

    165. Robert Graham says:

      Col.Blimp IV
      oh dear Senseless wont like that .The last time I was in London I was doing a flitting back to Scotland for a relative who lived in Putney , I got lost and ended up in Wandsworth fk me I thought I was in a different country ,the difference between Putney & Wandsworth was a real eye opener ,simple requests for directions was a nightmare , I thought ok make it simple the Thames ,I knew I could find Putney via the Thames and Putney bridge ,I ended up almost sign Language style , Water , big Water it was about 5am and that was all the locals I could fine even in garages .
      I dont know what Londoner’s think about how their city changed as you say they must feel like strangers in their own country very sad because there were great pubs and a good relaxed feeling along the riverside .

    166. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Aye much same here I posted earlier with rong link.

      https://www.unherd/2020/11/the-trouble-with-covid-denialism

    167. Hatuey says:

      lol Gfaetheblock

      Thanks.

    168. shug says:

      Hey Sensibledave
      Nice to see you back – they making you work weekends now – hope you get double time

    169. Robert Graham says:

      Eh Senseless
      How is yer full English Brexit doing old chap routed them Pesky Foreigner’s yet , yeah John Bull with sort them out sharpish
      Oh here comes Bawjaws victory is guaranteed and just in time for tea with scrumptious hot buttered scones and lashings of Tea .
      What is this bloody fixation with tea ? leg dropped off here’s a cuppa tea dying of pneumonia have a cuppa that will perk you up

    170. Robert Graham says:

      Here Here double time for Senseless hip hip

    171. shug says:

      Robert Graham
      Don’t to be mean to sensible dave he is a poor wee soul all full of hate and bile
      If he’s not hating Europe he hates the scots or the immigrants and the list goes on
      He is a poor soul and you must send him to care and love and concern

    172. Gfaetheblock says:

      Cheers ROB, good link

    173. Alf Baird says:

      Col.Blimp IV @ 7.39

      You are right, over the past 25 years some half of white people have moved out of urban areas across England as cities become more multicultural. This started with the more mobile middle class white community moving but now also includes working class too in what has become known as ‘white flight’ (Cantle 2012).

      The white English community moves to semi-urban and also rural areas in which as you say are mainly white residents. This includes settling in Scotland where the largest single ethnic migrant group (since records began) comprises people from England, this being oriented towards the professional and managerial classes. Scotland is attractive to this group because it is predominantly white, the Scots speak English, and a range of job opportunities exist especially in the public sector professions, health, education etc. Holyrood policies such as free prescriptions, care for elderly, free bus travel and free higher education offer added attractions, as does lower house prices in many areas.

      Since devolution in 1999 close to one million people have moved from England to Scotland, equivalent to almost 20% of the Scottish population. This is a substantial flow of people and, added to historic high levels of in-migration from rest-UK (combined with ‘displacement’ of 3-4 million Scots) it becomes highly influential in the context of independence given that people from the rest-UK tend to have the highest propensity to vote ‘No’.

      In other words, high and uncontrolled levels of migration (in and out) can result in a loss of sovereignty, especially in smaller populated nations, which is why all independent nations have immigration policies.

    174. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Alf

      Scary numbers.Primo Nocta in action but not by stealth.It’s in plain site.

      Most probably that’s why they want a full generation before next indy ref.

    175. shug says:

      The trouble with being a Scottish unionist is that you must hope that Scotland fails at everything just to justify your position. You hope the oil runs out or at least the price of oil falls. You hope the NHS fails or the virus hits harder in Scotland. You hope the education of your children is poor to prove your point. You hope the weather is bad so you can blame the Scottish government you take great pleasure when your country is treated with contempt. This is the true face of the Scottish
      Unionist a person who can’t stand see Scotland or its people doing well as a result of their own decisions. They can only do well if someone in Westminster decides for them.

    176. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hatuey (7.35) –

      ‘No. Actually, I’m going to scrutinise them even more carefully and thoroughly now.

      (I’m doing that gesture right now, with two fingers pointing at my eyes and then pointing at you…)’

      I would’ve responded earlier to that but have been doing the family Zoom quiz thing.

      Please explain what you mean by that comment.

    177. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Gfaetheblock (8.26) –

      ‘I have no idea what his angle is, but he hard to take seriously if you read the above.’

      So, if you hadn’t read that, you would be more likely to take him seriously?

      Has it crossed your mind that that is, possibly, the reason it was written?

    178. Iain More says:

      Col.Blimp IV says:
      5 December, 2020 at 3:45 pm

      “Sensibledave

      Aye, “Two Wold Wars and One World Cup” – as the theme from “The Dambusters” fades in…”

      Aye bailed oot in two of them by the Yanks and by a Russian Linesman in the other.

    179. Contrary says:

      Currency (again!): for anyone that’s needs a pleasant bedtime story to lull them to sleep, to distract from the daily grind of the day and general aggravations – unwind to the measured tones of absolute certainty, and absolute surety that we have one true policy for ensuring independence is best way forward. A podcast – via links as usual – of Tim Rideout being interviewed on the basics – just a broad overview, nothing detailed, and doesn’t involve sums:

      https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/12/04/scottish-currency/

      I also give a useful, and witty, summary of it in comments.

    180. Ronald Fraser says:

      Scotland in Sunday view on Scottish Independence:-

      “How British empire demise may point to way ahead in Scottish independence referendum stand-off”

      Historic precedents from the demise of the British empire may point to a more pragmatic approach from the UK Government over demands for an independence referendum, it has been suggested.

      By Scott Macnab
      Saturday, 5th December 2020, 10:26 pm

      The pressure is likely to build on Boris Johnson to come to the negotiating table if the SNP win a majority of seats and the popular vote in next May’s Scottish Parliament election as most polls suggest is likely, according to political experts.

      But, with five months to go until polling day, there are also warnings the dominant position enjoyed by Nicola Sturgeon in Scots public opinion could shift quickly over the course of an election campaign, as opposition parties gain more exposure.
      ADVERTISING

      The latest poll last week put the SNP on 55% of voting intentions for next May when undecided voters are removed – enough to give Ms Sturgeon a comfortable majority next year. The First Minister’s insistence that she will use this as a mandate for a second referendum on independence will increase the pressure on Boris Johnson to agree to a repeat of the 2014 vote on leaving the UK, according to Dr Heinz Brandenburg, Senior Lecturer in the School of Government & Public Policy at Strathclyde University.

      “If there’s an SNP majority and with the Greens perhaps likely to win more seats through the list vote, it could be quite a big majority for pro-independence parties,” he said.

      “I think that creates more pressure on Johnson to start negotiating some ways towards a referendum.

      “He doesn’t face an election for another four years so he doesn’t really have to do anything, but the pressure will build.

      “If there’s a majority for a party, that’s treated as a mandate for what they set out. It becomes very difficult to say that a referendum is not what people in Scotland want.”

      And the approach adopted with former colonial nations of the British empire which secured independence, including many parts of Africa in the 1960s, may point to a more pragmatic approach, according to Dr Elliot Bulmer, Politics lecturer at University of Dundee.

      “Traditionally, in most cases where countries have sought independence from the UK, which many countries have done, a majority in the legislature has been sufficient for the British Government to recognise that as a political mandate and to then commence independence negotiations,” he said.

      “Particularly where the pro-independence parties have been explicit about that – and have explicitly tried to use the election to obtain a mandate for independence.”

      Consistent polls throughout this year suggest a majority of Scots now support independence.

      But power over the constitution remains “reserved” to Westminster in the UK and most experts believe that Boris Johnson would have to agree to a transfer of power, through a so called section 30 order, for a repeat of the 2014 vote to take place. However this has never been tested in court and Ms Sturgeon has not ruled out the prospect of a legal challenge if the Tory leader refuses to agree to a referendum – even with another SNP majority next year.

      Professor Ailsa Henderson, a voting and elections expert at Edinburgh University, said the prospect of the SNP winning over 50% of the popular vote in next year’s election – so far unprecedented in the short history of devolution – would enhance the case for a referendum.

      “The argument would be that democratic events matter and if you get more than 50% in a democratic event that matters,” she added.

      “So just as the referendum for Brexit was not legally binding, it was seen to be politically binding.

      “Nicola Sturgeon could similarly claim that she has that politically binding mandate from a majority win.

      “And that would probably be easier for her to make that claim if they earned more than 50% of the vote rather than just 50% of the seats.

      The First Minister’s dominance of the airwaves during the Covid pandemic has helped drive the SNP’s polling success. Discord in the opposition parties have also been a factor with the Tories having changed leader this year, although new man Douglas Ross is an MP and not in Holyrood. Labour leader Richard Leonard has been forced to endure public calls to quit from a group of his own MSPs.

      Dr Malcolm Harvey, politics lecturer at Aberdeen University said: “Boris Johnson and the UK Government haven’t really had a great pandemic if you want to put it in those terms.

      “Publicly the communication hasn’t been great and if you look at the polling recently it suggests a very negative view of Boris Johnson with regards to the pandemic.

      “By contrast Nicola Sturgeon’s numbers on that have held very favourably. If that continues they’ll probably stay in the same kind of area, I can’t see them getting more of the vote than they’re currently sitting on.

      “The other parties have been in a very weak position not just over the last Parliament, but since the SNP won power in 2007. If the opposition had a been a bit stronger recently, there’s no way the SNP would be polling above 50% and predicted to win a majority.”

      But the polling dynamic could shift as the election campaign gathers pace, according to Professor Henderson.

      “Swings leading up to elections are not all that unusual and in the past too, you’ve had swings of six and 11 points heading into the election,” she added.

      “They would need to drop about ten points now not to get a majority, but those kinds of drops and rises are not unheard of. So it’s entirely possible from a precedent point of view that that might happen.

      “For them to fall another party has to rise and that’s where I think the obstacle lies because there’s no obvious contender for another party to take a chunk out of the SNP’s support.”

    181. Hatuey says:

      “Please explain what you mean by that comment.”

      That’s easy. https://tenor.com/view/watching-you-eyes-on-you-charles-reese-gif-14393903

    182. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      He is telling you that he will be keeping an eye on you, which is mildly intimidating.

      Which should be more than enough to get him seven years in the clink – If you retrospectively self ID and scream Transphobe in your best girlie voice before bursting into tears.

    183. Alf Baird says:

      Shug @ 9.50

      There are 5 dimensions of Appropriated Racial oppression, or ‘Internalized Racism’ which goes some way to explain the ‘thinking’ of Scottish unionists (Lipsky 1987):

      1. appropriation of negative stereotypes
      2. patterns of thinking that maintains the status quo
      3. adaptation of ‘superior’ oppressor cultural standards
      4. devaluation of one’s own ethnic group
      5. emotional reactions

      Contrary @ 10.43
      This also relates to the lack of Scottish experts on many important matters, not least currency, reflecting a privileged Anglophone meritocracy in Scotland and the subordinate position of Scots within the union (Hechter 1998) as well as prevailing higher education practices in regard to enrolling PhD candidates at Scottish universities (i.e. a focus mostly on accepting PhD researchers from outside Scotland).

    184. rob says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      5 December, 2020 at 7:33 pm

      X sticks, hows it going, long time No see,
      Re military inoculating Folk in Scotland, it no soodjers wae guns that will Be doing it but trained medics, the medical corp of the Brit Army are pretty well trained, i would not worry about it.

      The brit Army is not that large. Therefore, they won’t have that many trained medics. Compare the few military medics they have with the of thousands of NHS nurses, paramedics, chemists, not to mention the thousands of retired staff that could easily be called upon to give a simple intramuscular injection.
      I suspect if they can muster enough personnel to flood the country with soldiers to give these injections, then they won’t be trained medics at all. All sounds very sinister.

      As far as the army medics being very well trained. I am old enough to remember when the Ambulance service went on strike and the tory Govt called in the Army medics to to take over. It was a diasaster, they simply had no idea and by their own admission they were out of their depth.

    185. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hatuey (10.54) –

      That eyes/gesture thing is just pathetic. I can’t figure out if it’s supposed to be threatening or just a joke. Doesn’t really matter because it fails on both counts.

      Do you believe that anyone visiting this place, or anyone else for that matter, gives a solitary fuck what you or I think about it all?

      What if you spent your time providing some reassurance to folk rather than nit-pick at my comments? I assume you can do so, given that you’re so supportive of the general MSM script.

      I have no idea what your personal circumstances are, but I have two children with solid partners who are, hopefully, getting close to the age where they’ll think about starting their own families.

      Do you honestly expect me to ignore the questions raised in the article and video I linked?

    186. Hatuey says:

      Col.Blimp IV says:
      5 December, 2020 at 10:54 pm
      “He is telling you that he will be keeping an eye on you, which is mildly intimidating.”

      LOL So “threatening” to read comments carefully is aggressive and intimidating… apologies.

      That’s you on the list too btw, I’ll be reading your comments.

      Anyone else want some?

    187. wee monkey says:

      Ronald Fraser says:
      5 December, 2020 at 6:43 pm
      Wee monkey

      “You lot” ???????

      Whoever is “you lot” ????????

      Those who believe their own shit, that’s who!

      Do you honestly think independance, right now, under the snp, would give the PEOPLE, all of the PEOPLE, independence from homelessness, poverty, despair, drugs and their associated evils, destitution, unemployment?

      You NEED to SORT those first, not piss about bemoaning the English billions.

      That is where the self-serving cabal have done YOU over whilst leading YOU on like mugs.

      You lot [see I answered your question] are starting to sound just like that WOKE lot you just got rid of.

    188. Hatuey says:

      Actually, Ian, I’ve done everything possible to steer clear of that vaccine debate.

      But if you post anti-vaxx stuff on a public forum, we surely have a right to respond. That’s all I did and I don’t think I did it in a particularly aggressive or insulting way.

      And I did provide reassurance. It seems odd to say I’m not reassuring enough when you are basically telling people the vaccine is dangerous.

      The two fingered gesture thing, btw, to my mind, is an obvious joke. I’ve never seen anyone use that gesture seriously in my life… the more seriously you do it, the jokier it gets.

      Anyway, like I said, the majority of experts are telling us the vaccine is highly likely to be safe. If the argument is we don’t know it’s safe, that’s true. For me that doubt is more than outweighed by the potential rewards of eliminating the virus and returning to normal.

      Anyway, we are soon going to find out how safe it is… I’d be first in the queue for it, if I could.

    189. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Monkey

      “homelessness, poverty, despair, drugs and their associated evils, destitution, unemployment?”

      These are not new phenomenon,nor are they unique to Scotland, they have bedeviled society everywhere since capitalism first caught on.

      We have waited 300 years for these things to be eradicated under the Union Jackboot with no joy … do you suggest that we wait for 300 more?

    190. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Hatuey (11.38) –

      I’m not going to waste time parsing that comment.

      You just cannot ditch the ‘anti-vaxx’ slur, can you?

      That, in itself, exposes the paucity of your ‘argument’.

      Go get your jab, exhort all your family, friends and neighbours to do likewise.

      That’s your shout.

      But many of us will not be rolling up our sleeves, for all sorts of reasons, the main one being that the fucking thing has not been properly tested.

      It really is that simple. No ‘conspiracy’ involved.

    191. Lenny Hartley says:

      Rob, re British Army, same with Fire Engines, they were not trained for either. However i dont think anybody is talking about squaddies being in charge of a syringe,They in the main have just about Enough brain power to pull a trigger.
      If its not trained Forces Medical personnel who are being tasked with assisting the civilian authorities I share your concern, however If it is The army Medical Corp , RN and RAF Medics Then they will have sufficient training to apply a inoculation.

    192. CameronB Brodie says:

      ““Traditionally, in most cases where countries have sought independence from the UK, which many countries have done, a majority in the legislature has been sufficient for the British Government to recognise that as a political mandate and to then commence independence negotiations,” he said.”

      Scotland does not seek independence from the UK, it seeks parity with England. The Treaty of Union was not Scotland’s bill of sale to a Westminster that supports populist constitutionalism and ignores our human rights. Government through force is otherwise known as EUGENICS, which tends to be frowned upon internationally. Every Scot is an agent of international law, so we will not enjoy the benefits of democracy if we allow Westminster to separate Scotland further from international law and order.

    193. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      “Anti-vaxxer” is not a slur though is it? It’s a simple term for people that don’t want to take a vaccine. An informal noun.
      You’re not going to say “the bloke that doesn’t want to take a vaccine” You would just say anti-vaxxer.

      ‘Bug’ on the other hand means nothing in the context of coronavirus. A ‘bug’ is an insect, and a host of other things.

      Now a ‘bacterium’ or a ‘wee bug’is a class of ‘bug’ too, but it doesn’t need a host.A food bug,a toilet bug etc.

      On the other hand a virus(coronavirus) which is really really tiny ,that tiny the biggest one found so far is smaller than the largest bacterium and it does need a host and we’re it.

      Now who do you think is throwing the slurs around Ian B ?

    194. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Btw punctuation is not my thing,neither is English. I leave that to Rev Stu.

    195. Alf Baird says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 12.32

      You are right, a sovereign Scottish people has no need to plead for independence from any oppressor. The SNP’s 48 MP’s need to assert Scottish sovereignty, preferably by 31st Dec.

    196. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alf Baird
      British constitutionalism must obliterate the concept of Scottish sovereignty if it is to survive. Unfortunately, it has the strategic resources to do so. So that’s our natural resources spoken for by another populous, and Scots denied access to our “Right to Development”. Along with the benefits of democracy.

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780080289212/development-human-rights-and-the-rule-of-law#book-description

    197. robertknight says:

      CBB

      “British constitutionalism must obliterate the concept of Scottish sovereignty if it is to survive.”

      Those advocating the suppression of Scottish sovereignty needn’t bother trying to “obliterate” it. They just need a compliant FM in Bute House who is complicit in the British State’s insistence that Scotland needs permission in order to ask the people a straightforward question.

      An added bonus is to have a FM in Bute House who is not only compliant but who will also oversee Ministers and Civil Servants in obstructing a judicial process, brought about by a Citizen, which seeks to establish whether such permission is or is not a legally enforceable requirement.

      And you all thought Truth Davidson was the biggest Yoon in Holyrood? Suckers!

    198. Grouse Beater says:

      I really hope your cartoon of a dying Albion is right, Chris. The contrary happening is a bit scary. Anyhow, I’ve published two papers this weekend, the second written by Alex Neil and Alex Salmond.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      ‘What To Do In Scotland before You Die”: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-pha
      ‘Scotland Post-Pandemic’: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-pgY

    199. Contrary says:

      For everyone that has been fighting about who should be allowed to say what on the vaccine, this is RevStu’s opinion on the matter that he posted at the end of a previous – more relevant – thread:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/were-number-one/#comment-2585857

      I think you should be able to tell from that who it is he’s going to lose patience with first and start using hammers on.

    200. Effijy says:

      The news this morning proclaims the Royal Family will
      Have the vaccine within weeks?

      I’m sure Betty and crew will stand in line with the rest of us
      To have some Squaddie inject the great white hope?

      As a special treat William and wife will tour the country to
      tell NHS workers how good they were to work without PPE
      and annual wage rises.

      Wonder if they will have to pay for parking like the nurses?

      Next, our Bojo was working hard yesterday and spent a full hour
      Talking to the EU leader about Brexit.

      He will command our TV’s and announce the final outcome.
      Now Bojo’s form would suggest that whatever he proclaims will
      in fact be the best world leading Brexit agreement ever.

      I am quite surprised by the patience of the EU leaders.
      They know they are dealing with a clown who is a serial liar,
      a man who proclaims himself and the English to be superior
      to these infidels and who is happy to break recently signed
      agreements and international law.

      The UK leaders are so well organised and well versed in negotiations that
      they failed the 3 attempts the EU made to help them with PPE supplies
      and who paid £21 Million to a Spanish unknown to negotiate supplies for the NHS.

      Quite scary that Scotland’s government is unable to out think or out manoeuvre these corrupt imbeciles.

    201. Sensibledave says:

      Shug 9.00pm

      … voluntary overtime. As I mentioned, my brigade has been stood down for a good few months now. The natives have taken to fighting amongst themselves. Sturgeon has been successfully “shifted” from being the lord saviour to the devil incarnate and SNP supporters are resigning their memberships in droves. We left her in post long enough to demonstrate that she could ruin the Scottish health and education outcomes whilst she let drug use and obesity go through the roof whilst life expectancy numbers are appalling.

      We just do scouting missions now. We look for the loonies online and shine a light on them. It’s a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. The natives are left denigrating folk in their neighbouring country in order to try to make themselves feel better. It’s a bit sad really.

    202. Contrary says:

      Further vaccine information

      Prof Devi Sridhar retweeted this (so on my ‘approved’) list, re ‘what is known’ about the first vaccine

      https://mobile.twitter.com/Williams_T_C/status/1334339416312123399

      A lot of it might not be particularly accessible for most people what with the medical detail, but you can get the gist by scrolling through the thread. It is experimental stll, so not enough is known for guaranteed long-term safety and efficacy in all categories of people, but it is going to work to some extent and it won’t kill you.

      I think it’s useful to watch Jeanne Freeman’s Covid Statement in parliament about how they are distributing and the plans and what the guidelines are. First off, she acknowledged the above issues – experimental nature and uncertain efficacy – and sets out who is in the Phase 1 inoculation group, those that will receive this Pfizer one, and that’s medical and care staff, then 80+ vulnerable people and some young vulnerable people.

      The timeline for phase 1 is projected to be complete end of March 2021. So if you are not in any of the phase 1 groups – there is no point in worrying about whether you should take it or not – you can’t.

      If you are in any of these groups and are concerned, phone your GP and discuss it with them in a couple of weeks (so they have time to read and digest the info).

      By next March, more vaccines will be on the market and approved, or whatever, for use – and we can all discuss the issue then.

      It’s got to be a personal choice – if it is still experimental, it must be voluntary. I’m personally fine with experimental, even if uncontrolled, in this situation because there is some urgency and the benefits outweigh the risks. But, I don’t need to make the decision in this case, the general population are not going to be offered it.

      Better vaccines will be along soon enough. One of the bad points about this one is that it needs two injections – that just makes distribution really difficult.

      (all I mean by ‘uncontrolled’ is that there is no control group – normally you have a control group that are given placebo and experimenters don’t know which is which – to demonstrate whatever substance makes a difference. Research results don’t really prove anything without it, but not a real issue for actual use)

    203. Bob Mack says:

      @Sensibledave,

      Millwall,millwall.

    204. Sensibledave says:

      Bob Mack

      You can’t stop yourself can you. You live in a country where the two biggest football clubs and their supporters are divided on some uncivilised sectarian basis ffs, and make a comment about Millwall supporters in England – who are universally hated by everyone.

      Have you had your remaining brain cell removed Bob?

    205. Bob Mack says:

      @Sensibledave,

      You hate Millwall now Dave. Oh dear.

    206. Sensibledave says:

      Bob Mack

      Protestant v Catholic in 2021?????

    207. Iain Hamilton says:

      Re: Michael Yeadon “fact check”.

      I couldn’t recall reading his claim that UK had achieved herd immunity and that no vaccine was required in the document that was circulating yesterday.

      The debunked fact that is being touted *absolutely everywhere” this morning is based on one sentence which does not appear in his letter to Matt Hancock.

      Here’s a link to his twitter thread on the letter.

      It’s a call for slowing down and checking before we jump in with both feet.

      The way the “debunk” has managed to appear from so many different sources simultaneously and the letter itself has become increasingly difficult to find stinks of media control.

      It’s a classic squirrel.

    208. Bob Mack says:

      @Sensibledave,

      A prediction? it’s only 2020.

    209. Sensibledave says:

      Bob

      … if you like, I could send you a link to one of many videos where Millwall fans sing their “no one likes us, everybody hates us” chant?

      You need to give it up Bob, trying to use football supporters as a bell weather for the character of the average citizen of a country is particularly stupid where Celtic and Rangers are so divisive in Scotland.

      Anyway, my shift is coming to an end. Just need to try and kibosh the Brexit deal before I finish – so I can watch England rugby confirm their status as the best in Europe (as with so many things).

    210. Bob Mack says:

      @Sensibledave,

      You read the tea leaves among your other talents?

    211. Bob Mack says:

      @Dave,

      So now your spokesman for the whole of England ? You know by research that the majority of England are not racists?

      We have an Oracle in our midst.

    212. Sensibledave says:

      Bob

      Haha … I note that you have no substantive response to my observations …

      Have a good day.

    213. Bob Mack says:

      @Dave,

      I will Dave. I will.

    214. Bob Mack says:

      I actually quite like Sensibldaves contributions because at least he makes you think.

      On racism he believes the English are no worse than anybody.

      Fair enough. Most of the opinion polls on the matter done in England would seem to agree with him. The problem is when you look at the demographics of these polls. The ones who believe there is very little racism are all white.

      The ones who feel racism is stsadily increasing by the year are all ethnic groupings.

      One of them is right. The Guardian did a poll last year and found exactly these results.

      I expect the Sensibledave outlook is that racial minorities are offered feather beds at night and opportunity galore.

      Better check with them first Dave before you speak for them eh?

    215. deerhill says:

      Bob Mack says:
      6 December, 2020 at 9:22 am

      @Sensibledave,

      A prediction? it’s only 2020.

      No.It’s what Brigade 77 will be concentrating on next year.
      It’s not unprecedented for the colonies to be encouraged to religious strife. “Divide and rule” dontcha know?
      Perhaps “Sensible” will get a slap from the duty sargeant for revealing plans?

    216. Ronald Fraser says:

      Three days before Boris annouces that the UK/Scotland will be leaving the EU with No Deal,,and talk of independence on the rise, BBC Politics Scotland this morning leads once again with,,,,,,,, Care Homes.

      They are obsessed with what is happening in Scottish Care Homes.

      They seem to think that is the weak link in the Yes Movement.

      Even when reading out the headlines in the Sunday papers, they deliberately left out the Scotland on Sunday headlines because it’s lead story was about,,, Scottish Independence.

      And couldn’t they track down DRoss for his thoughts on the impending exit from the EU and all the implications that will follow from that?

    217. MaggieC says:

      Twi articles from the Sunday National about Caroline McAllister after winning the Women’s Convener post and and Neale Hanvey after his election to the Members Conduct Committee ,

      “ SNP’s Caroline McAllister says ‘Women’s Pledge has no intention of bringing down FM’ “

      “ CAROLINE McAllister has been called a lot of things. As the SNP’s new Women’s Convenor, she wants to end the shouting and start talking. “

      https://archive.vn/sdCdk

      “Neale Hanvey on his return to SNP and learning from mistakes after an uncertain year “

      “Twelve months on, the Belfast-born cancer specialist has not only been readmitted to the party and officially rejoined its Westminster group of MPs, he’s also been elected by members to the SNP’s National Executive Committee (NEC), taking up a role on the very conduct board that authorised his six-month suspension.

      https://archive.vn/yFA1j#comments-anchor

      It’s good to see two sensible articles for a change .

    218. Fireproofjim says:

      Please Stu, do something to curb the current domination of “sensible dave” who is only here to disrupt and stir up negative racist comments about the English.
      We don’t need him as Boris Johnson is quite capable of doing that onhis own.

    219. Pete says:

      Bob Mack/Sensible Dave
      Actually, I agree with the Millwall fans and I think it happened at Colchester.
      What this ‘taking the knee’stuff has to do with watching football seems crazy to me.
      At my game yesterday, we also had a minute silence for Maradonna!!!
      Goeorge Floyd was an American career criminal who was killed by a dreadful act of police brutality.
      The video showed that, but the officer will have his chance to say otherwise and will face justice in a court of law. The post mortem showed that his body was full of drugs which may or may not have contributed to his death but the trial will bring all this to light.
      BLM has become a far left organisation dedicated to overthrow capitalism and defund the police, to name but a few of its aims.
      Why footballers are degrading themselves in some virtue signalling exercise before matches beats me?

    220. Bob Mack says:

      @Pete,

      I suspect we already knew what your contribution would be.

      You didn’t disappoint !!

    221. Sensibledave says:

      Fireproofjim

      “He’s only here to stir up negative racist comments about the English”.

      How can you be so wrong you dimwit!

    222. @Stuart MacKay,

      unless someone more up on the nuances of the gender/sex debate can add anything, i think this is the correct thing to do,

      `The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined,(male/female)

      whereas gender is based on socially constructed features.

      They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave.`

      if you ask for a man based on gender you could get a woman self identifying as a man and vice versa,

      if you ask for a woman based on sex you would get a woman based on her sex not a man who self identifies as a woman and vise versa,

      i think.

    223. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Forensic Medical Services Bill. This suggests those drafting Scotland’s legislation are determined to conflate sex with gender, thereby canceling the legal protections that exist to protect women and children from violent men. So here’s a look at “Human Rights – Human Bodies? Some Reflections on Corporate Human Rights Distortion,The Legal Subject, Embodiment and Human Rights Theory”.

      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10978-006-0006-8

      “This paper responds to the subversion of international human rights discourse by corporations. It begins by placing such subversion in three contexts: the ascendance of human rights as the dominant discourse of contemporary moral and political life; the emerging challenges to human rights posed by other-than-natural-human entities; and ambiguity in the relationship between the legal subject and the human being.

      The author suggests that in order to resist corporate human rights distortion it is important to reclaim the language of the human for the natural human being, despite complex philosophical and definitional challenges attending the designation of the term ‘human.’ The author suggests that by re-attending to the implications of human embodiment for human rights theory it might be possible to re-invigorate the protective potential of human rights for vulnerable human beings and communities against powerful disembodied legal persons (corporations).”

    224. Ronald Fraser says:

      Len Hartley 12.25am

      Are you an ex-sojur???

      Did they call you “Jock” ???

      Did you sign up to die for Lizzy???

      Are you aff yer fuckin heed???

      You would actually DIE trying to save a Billionaire ENGLISH Parasite???

      We don’t need the english army in Scotland helping to administer a jag.

      There are other Scottish crowd management companies out there who can do a far better job.

      No, to the english army entering Scotland.

    225. CameronB Brodie says:

      And here’s a look at “Objects of Crime: Bodies, Embodiment and Forensic Pathology “.

      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0964663919897957

      “When a death takes place in suspicious circumstances, the body transitions from being somebody to an object which is of legal as well as social value. A key investigatory process is that of the forensic autopsy, carried out by a Home Office Registered Forensic Pathologist (HORFP). This article draws upon empirical data from research involving HORFPs to examine their identity and the meaning they assign to the deceased body. I argue that HORFP’s understanding of the value of the deceased body constantly shifts due to the multifaceted nature of their role.

      I explain this by drawing upon a legal embodiment framework. The HORFPs have to balance a legal context which demands objective ‘facts’ and formal labels with emotionally difficult cases and the impact of their work on the bereaved. I challenge the dichotomy between dualism and embodiment, arguing that there is not an oppositional choice between ‘science’ and recognition of the symbolic value of the corpse, but rather that these views can coexist while serving different functions that are central to a HORFP’s role.

    226. Effijy says:

      On Brexit Mr Eustice said the UK must have its Sovereignty respected as we
      will not have interference from other nations.

      Mr Eustice also said the UK “cannot be the only country in the world that doesn’t control its own waters”.

      Don’t worry Mr Eustice, you have been undermining Scotland’s sovereignty for over 300 years
      and now stepping up the pace to remove the main powers that we do have.

      The Water’s the EU want to fish are Scottish, already stolen property in the name of England.

      Strange the entire UK media are oblivious to the obvious?

    227. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Ronaldo’s first post today was written by his mum.No sweaty words.
      Second one is more of his usual anti English nonsense.

      It’s UK armed forces ya bampot.You do nothing to encourage more x-service or in service forces to join the Indy cause.

      Who do you think is gonnae be the foundation of a future Scottish defence force ya rocket. Some idiot like you?

    228. CameronB Brodie says:

      And here’s a look at “Phenomenology and Embodiment: Husserl and the Constitution of Subjectivity”.

      https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/phenomenology-and-embodiment-husserl-and-the-constitution-of-subjectivity/

    229. Hatuey says:

      Iain Hamilton, here’s a link to a video, you don’t need to read; https://m.facebook.com/talkRADIOUK/videos/dr-mike-yeadon-stong-evidence-of-covid-herd-immunity-in-the-uk/159532215903994/

      At around 9 minutes he claims the UK has broadly achieved “herd immunity”.

      Approximately 400 people died in the UK yesterday as a consequence of having had covid-19 and those of us who still have a couple of brain cells kicking around might wonder exactly what is meant by “immunity” as Yeadon uses the word. But conveniently he can explain that too – the testing is all wrong apparently. Oh, and the pandemic is over, there is no second wave.

      This all puts Yeadon in a special category as a conspiracy theorist, alongside those “no planers” who said the jets that we seen hitting the world trade centre were simply special effects.

      Of course, he’s very convincing too, he has the qualifications, the posh accent, and apparently nothing to lose or gain here since he has retired. That’s some retirement; it looks like a full blown media campaign, radio, tv, Twitter, Facebook, he’s everywhere all at once.

      I suppose, though, you need to be convincing to sell ideas that are at odds with everything people see and understand about a given subject. And the more at odds or ridiculous the thing you’re selling is, the more convincing you need to be.

      Who do we trust? I trust the people on the front line, the doctors, nurses, and yes, the government health advisors and experts too (even if they’ve gotten a lot wrong on this).

      Like them, I believe covid-19 is real and that it’s killed tens of thousands of people in the UK, far too many.

      Like them, I believe we are in a second wave and that hundreds per day are still dying.

      Like them, I don’t believe the UK has herd immunity and I’d guess that if the 400 who died yesterday could talk then most would agree.

      In short, on all of the above, I believe the opposite of what Yeadon is saying is true. That goes for the vaccine too.

      It’s your right not to sign up for the vaccine, of course. If a significant number exercise that right, though, enough to screw up the NHS for example, I’d be all in favour of some sort of passport system being introduced so that those who refuse the vaccine need to continue obeying the rules on mitigation – that’s our right.

    230. Breastplate says:

      Hatuey,

      “It’s your right not to sign up for the vaccine, of course. If a significant number exercise that right, though, enough to screw up the NHS for example, I’d be all in favour of some sort of passport system being introduced so that those who refuse the vaccine need to continue obeying the rules on mitigation – that’s our right.”

      Presumably you think this in order to save lives?
      Should we do this for the flu vaccine also? If not, why not?
      If so, presumably there will be other vaccines that other people should take whether they need it or not? Where would we draw a line? Who would draw the line?

      Is the death rate alone the only unit of measurement that you consider to come to a decision? If not, what else do you weigh up in your deliberations?

      I’m asking these questions because I don’t understand your stance and would very much like to hear the reasoning that bolsters your opinion on this and the inevitable wider implications of your musings.

    231. Iain Hamilton says:

      @ Hatuey,

      Thank you for the reply.

      My comment was based on his letter being responded to by ad hominem attacks. In much the same way as people dismiss Craig Murray as a conspiracy theorist yet ignore his wealth of knowledge on constitutional matters and the machinations of the UK government.

      His letter – see link above – is ignored and he is responded to with “ahh but he said”. IT reminded me very much of – you can’t have independence because “once in a generation”.

      I believe you that he said the pish about herd immunity and no need for a vaccine. I also agree (with myself – lol) that it is indeed pish. His letter to Hancock, however, wasn’t.

      Using something else he said to discredit the much more thought out letter makes no sense to me. What does make sense is the number of simultaneous and scripted attacks on his credibility. These things do not just appear out of thin air.

      I don’t yet have to worry about the potential (if any) danger which may become obvious after vaccination since it’s at least three months til I will be eligible to receive it anyway.

      I have the luxury of waiting.

    232. Hatuey says:

      Breastplate, my yardstick when it comes to the requirement passports has nothing to do with deaths per se. I’m basically arguing that we should have limits on the free movement of people in the future on the same basis that we have them today; avoiding deaths isn’t the basis of the lockdown restrictions. The goal is to avoid the NHS being overwhelmed.

      It would be wrong for those of us who take the vaccine to be deprived of NHS treatment because the NHS was overwhelmed with those that chose not to take the vaccine. It’s not intended as punishment, it’s intended to stop large numbers of them overwhelming our NHS – that’s why we have tiers and restrictions today.

      I don’t think it applies to the flu or anything else on the radar because I don’t see anything else out there that has the devastating potential to overwhelm the NHS in the way we know coronavirus does.

      A lot hinges on the numbers of those who accept the vaccine and the number of those who don’t. If 50% don’t have it, that means there’s still huge potential for the health system to be overwhelmed.

    233. Hatuey says:

      Iain, unfortunately we are forced to make decisions when it comes to these things. We don’t have one source of the truth or perfect knowledge. We rely on experts and often their opinions vary.

      The argument you use there against listening to people like Craig Murray is the argument I’d use for listening to him. He is an expert in many things. But buying into his view on say Independence isn’t likely to result in our NHS being overwhelmed.

      The vast majority of experts, doctors, health experts, immunologists, etc., are saying the virus is almost certainly safe. We could wait 10 years to see if they’re right but for obvious reasons I don’t think we should. How many would needlessly die as we waited, what would the impact be on the economy, society, education, NHS, etc?

      Please don’t confuse this for a moral argument or assume I’m overly concerned about those that don’t take it. It isn’t. It’s their choice. My concern is for the rest of us who need to pay for their recalcitrance. If 50% of the population refuse the vaccine, it’s simply a fact that restrictions for those people will need to remain, otherwise we face all sorts of problems.

    234. Hatuey says:

      The vast majority of experts, doctors, health experts, immunologists, etc., are saying the virus is almost certainly safe.

      Vaccine is safe, not virus. Lol.

      One little error like that can destroy a career.



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