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The invisible tree

Posted on June 03, 2017 by

This is how today’s BBC News summed up (fairly accurately) the two main themes of last night’s Question Time special with Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn:

May managed to largely get away with her party’s abysmal track record of brutal cuts and austerity, while Corbyn was made very uncomfortable by a howling mob of angry, terrifyingly bloodthirsty old white men over Labour’s policy on Trident.

And while Corbyn’s position on the nuclear deterrent is idiotic and makes him an easy target for opponents, the main reason for the differing outcomes is language.

Spending £200bn on renewing Trident while completely undermining its only function – terrorising your enemies into peace with the thought of mutually assured destruction – by refusing to say that you’d use it even in retaliation is the worst of all possible worlds. Either save the money (the sensible option from every perspective), or simply and firmly say “We would never strike first but we would absolutely strike back”.

That preserves morality while defusing the issue politically, and it doesn’t matter a jot whether it’s true or not – as the Russian missiles plummet towards UK cities, if you don’t press the button because you don’t see the point in the useless vengeful murder of millions of civilians, it’s too late for it to damage your electoral prospects and you can die with a clear conscience.

So we know Corbyn is an idiot, because he wobbled and waffled and avoided a simple answer that would have moved the debate on, and as a result was battered again and again by the question. But how did May get away with swerving the main attack on her with a line that’s no less stupid?

Because every single remotely-alert adult human in the country knows that there IS a “magic money tree”. Between 2009 and 2012 both Labour and Tory UK governments simply conjured hundreds of billions of pounds out of thin air by a process that used to be bluntly called “printing money” but now goes under the name “quantitative easing”.

The “magic money tree” line is being pushed non-stop by the Tories now because it’s punchy and simple and ‘truthy”. It sounds rational because normal people think of government finances like household finances, and the rest of us can’t just churn out a load of crisp new £20s on our printer if cash gets a bit short.

But government finances DON’T work like household ones. Governments CAN just print money, with little in the way of consequences. Almost half a TRILLION pounds of extra cash floating around the economy from QE had almost no significant effect on inflation, and the only people who really suffered were people with savings in the bank, for whom interest rates fell to almost zero.

So why isn’t QE fired straight back at the Tories as an answer to “the magic money tree”? Because it’s been turned into difficult language.

As with so much about modern politics, the explanation can be found in “1984”.

“Even in the early decades of the twentieth century, telescoped words and phrases had been one of the characteristic features of political language; and it had been noticed that the tendency to use abbreviations of this kind was most marked in totalitarian countries and totalitarian organizations. Examples were such words as NAZI, GESTAPO, COMINTERN, INPRECORR, AGITPROP.

In the beginning the practice had been adopted as it were instinctively, but in Newspeak it was used with a conscious purpose. It was perceived that in thus abbreviating a name one narrowed and subtly altered its meaning, by cutting out most of the associations that would otherwise cling to it.

The words COMMUNIST INTERNATIONAL, for instance, call up a composite picture of universal human brotherhood, red flags, barricades, Karl Marx, and the Paris Commune. The word COMINTERN, on the other hand, suggests merely a tightly-knit organization and a well-defined body of doctrine.

It refers to something almost as easily recognized, and as limited in purpose, as a chair or a table. COMINTERN is a word that can be uttered almost without taking thought, whereas COMMUNIST INTERNATIONAL is a phrase over which one is obliged to linger at least momentarily.

In the same way, the associations called up by a word like MINITRUE are fewer and more controllable than those called up by MINISTRY OF TRUTH. This accounted not only for the habit of abbreviating whenever possible, but also for the almost exaggerated care that was taken to make every word easily pronounceable.

In Newspeak, euphony outweighed every consideration other than exactitude of meaning. Regularity of grammar was always sacrificed to it when it seemed necessary. And rightly so, since what was required, above all for political purposes, was short clipped words of unmistakable meaning which could be uttered rapidly and which roused the minimum of echoes in the speaker’s mind.”

What’s been done with Quantitative Easing, of course, is the exact reverse of that. Tories and bankers want people NOT to understand that QE is simply creating money out of nowhere, so they give it a name that’s awkward to physically say – it’s got too many syllables, and too many Ts close together – and has no intrinsic meaning.

(The phrase “quantitative easing” says absolutely nothing when isolated from context. What is being eased? How do you ease a quantity?)

The listener instinctively recoils from the very words, and is thereby distracted from the straightforward, easily-understood reality of “printing money”. From that position, it’s almost impossible to get a hearing for your explanation, which may be the reason Corbyn and the left in general barely even try.

It’s the simplest trick in the propaganda book, and it has shaped the entire nature of political discourse in the UK for a decade.

Money is a completely artificial construct. It’s a thing humanity has arbitrarily imposed on itself. It’s not a planetary resource that can run out or be destroyed, like metals or oil or oxygen or arable land. We create and withhold it at will, and it could be used just as easily to pay nurses as it was to bail out the banks.

Not doing so is an ideological choice, not an arithmetical one. And people instinctively understand that, so it’s vital for politicians to obscure it under offputting jargon.

“Strong and stable goverment” is now a line that provokes mocking laughter rather than confidence, and Theresa May can’t paint herself as a fearless Brexit negotiator when she’s too scared to even show up to a debate. So the Tories are falling back to their traditional last resort – economic responsibility.

And even that’s a tough sell, given that the reality is that Tory governments borrow more money than Labour ones. So the only way to make it stick is by turning voters off from the debate before they look too closely at the facts.

Words are powerful, readers. “Quantitative Easing” is a brick wall made of them, and it’s big enough to hide a whole forest of money trees behind.

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  1. 03 06 17 12:56

    The invisible tree | speymouth

259 to “The invisible tree”

  1. Street Andrew says:

    Spot-on Rev.

    The Tory propaganda machine wins hands down over and over again by obscuring its lies (oops! – unparliamentary language creeping in there) in ‘truthy’ soundbites.

    The point you make about the difference between a national (government) budget and a household budget hits a very big nail right on the head.

    Margaret Thatcher got away with it and the (bulk of) electorate still doesn’t see it because it sounds like ‘common sense’.

    In economics rules of common sense don’t apply.

  2. Capella says:

    Lynton Crosby must be losing his touch. Every time the Tories test drive a catchphase, it’s shot down in flames on twitter, and on WoS.
    Shame.
    But Theresa has a cunning plan to neuter the internet.

    http://novaramedia.com/2017/05/10/4-ways-lynton-crosby-will-manipulate-another-british-election/

  3. Swami Backverandah says:

    Notice how we don’t hear about “trickle down” anymore, ever since it started being referred to as ‘trick’.

  4. maureen says:

    That money tree needs a bloody good shake and the proceeds used to protect our public services, not to line the pockets of the rich

  5. Swami Backverandah says:

    @ Capella, yes the Crosby’s of the world are late to the social media party, but don’t underestimate the cat slinger.

    He’s made May totally irresistible to those most in her image.
    And they’ll come out in their droves to vote.

  6. David Caledonia says:

    Nuclear weapons are stupid anyway, for example, if russia launched them against us, they would just be killing themselves even if the UK did not retaliate, the whole earth would get polluted with the fallout, you only have to remember the russian nuclear power site that went up and the fallout spread over europe and beyond, that is nothing compared to what would happen if nuclear missiles where ever used, and they all know that, so what’s the point of having them

  7. Muscleguy says:

    Yes, you can create fiat money and use it to pay nurses more. But not without consequences. Your currency will fall pro rata with the proportion you have increased the money supply by.

    This means the nurse has to pay more for imported goods and domestic goods which have imported components. So inflation degrades the nurse’s real disposable income. So you have to create more fiat money to compensate them and so it goes.

    Which is why governments don’t turn the tap on will-nilly and when they do the extra money is almost never given as a pay rise.

    The use to which the UK put it, giving it to the banks in the expectation of greater lending to business to stimulate the economy did not work because the banks were under no obligation to do so and used it to boost their balance sheets and pass solvency tests. And besides, business is awash with cash reserves they are not investing because there is too much business uncertainty and the government keeps creating more. Brexit referendums, snap elections, policy u-turns and lack of clarity.

    I grew up in New Zealand a small nation that earns its way in the world by exporting. The economy is geared to export, infrastructure has been installed to facilitate it. NZ has over half a dozen container ports dotted around the coasts. Each one capable of handling powered refrigerated containers.

    Scotland has ONE and it is not a deep water port and recently crowed over installing power for refrigerated containers.

    Some of the blame for that lies in Westminster but also in Scotland for not making the business case for better facilities. When people note that a lot of Scottish exports have to go to England to find an export port this is why.

  8. Big Jock says:

    Money tree managed to find billions to carpet bomb Syria for two years. What is the benefit for people of the UK. Oh we can all sleep soundly knowing we are bombing the fuck out of an enemy thousands of miles away, that can’t fight back.

  9. Swami Backverandah says:

    @muscleguy
    yeah but …
    The QE didn’t send inflation skyrocketing, did it.
    It only lined the pockets of the trickled up.
    And it won’t devalue the currency either all the while the boys in the hood are busy rigging the rates.

    It’s a con.

  10. Black Joan says:

    Explained with perfect clarity, Rev. Thank you.

    The obscenity of spending on Trident (and its innate uselessness) somehow escapes scrutiny. Corbyn should have been the man to highlight this but he doesn’t dare.

    (I think in the second line below the first picture, “which” should be “while”?)

  11. Grafter says:

    David the point in having them is to make vast profits for the military industrial sector. Truly insane behaviour.

  12. The Dog Philosopher says:

    Orwell (Eric Blair), being a novelist and an essayist, knew only too well how the slippery nature of language could be used to persuade and convince as well as obscure and deceive. Language, and its many uses, has now become a vital weapon in politics (rhetoric being version 1.0), just as it has become a focal point in art, philosophy and many other discourses.

    We look to language in the hope of locating ‘truth’ only to find ‘truth’ is just another word waiting to be bent out of shape. I’m sure all political parties now have teams of word-surgeons beavering away so as to reconceptualize the meaning of meaning (with a copy of 1984 close to hand).

  13. John says:

    Don’t know why Corbyn does not deflect more of this kind of heckling away from himself by saying he would rather spend the money on building up the Army , Navy and Air force , to protect the nation , rather than something that he would never use .He has been adamant in his nuclear stance but he needs a credible alternative .

  14. Slackshoe says:

    I think Jeremy Corbyn is starting to sound more and more like a real leader these days. He comes across confidently for the most part.

    His honesty and morals are great virtues, but intelligent and principled words are going to fall on deaf ears sometimes. His problem is that he can’t find it in himself to placate these sorts of people with the reassuring little lies they want to hear. Theresa May is an expert in this. Dumbing things down to the level of these people. The authoritarians who are crying out for someone who talks big and strong and doesn’t care about the finer details.

    I just think if Corbyn can reach a compromise with his party on issues like Trident, and is more than happy to spout the same old tosh about the SNP and Scotland that Kezia has been feeding him, then surely it’s not too much of a stretch for him to put his (completely admirable) personal beliefs to the side on a completely irrelevant issue and just play along with the idiots a bit?

  15. Governments can create as much money as they want through a central bank,

    it is called FIAT money,FIAT is Latin for `let it be so` or `let it be done` a bit like the magic word `abracadabra`.

    the big problem with to much money in circulation is inflation,

    to stop inflation the Gov taxes the people to take money out of circulation,

    our problem is that the Gov taxes the poor to get the money out the system not the rich,

    tax is there to take money out of circulation it has no other use,it is a safety valve against inflation,

    Brown put up VAT to take the money he used to bail out/give the bankers out the system when it reached our level,

    the Gov does not need tax because it can create as much money as it wants but if we were not taxed we the poor would have to much money and not enough to spend it on which would create inflation,

    this is why the rich are getting richer,the Gov is not taxing them to ease inflation they are taxing us,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8DJhiAmSv8

  16. JGedd says:

    @David Caledonia

    During the Cold War, MAD was assumed to protect against the doomsday scenario since the assumption was that sane people would understand the nuclear option could not be used. However, MAD could only maintain that equilibrium as long as leaders were not actually “mad”.

    Nightmare scenarios such as that of Fail Safe and Dr Strangelove picked up on the uneasiness which haunted the more thoughtful, that MAD was not an infallible governor of the thinking of those in charge of the nuclear button. All it took was one “mad” act or a simple mistake.

    I grew up during the Cold War and can testify that the fear of nuclear war entered my dreams and I would awake from nightmares. Since then, people seem to have lost their fear of nuclear weapons and seem dangerously unaware of what MAD actually means. If you lose that understanding then the madness of nuclear war becomes imaginable.

  17. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Don’t think this guy needs QE.

    One of the “plants” from the QT show yesterday has already been outed. Nicked from the Rev’s twitter:

    https://twitter.com/KingMELESHA/status/870923358933835776

  18. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Sorry but the link seems to be protected.

    Maybe this works? If not go to the Rev’s twitter and scroll down.

    https://twitter.com/wefail/status/870914048921128960

    Again copied from the Rev’s Twitter.

    Hoping…… 🙁

  19. Swami Backverandah says:

    from the groaniad blog:

    ‘May was also asked whether she was insulting the public’s intelligence “with stupid slogans?” “I’ve been running a campaign which has been setting out the very clear choice the British people have and the very real challenges the government faces over the next five years,” she said. “It’s an important of change for our country, that choice is between a strong and stable leadership… or Jeremy Corbyn and a coalition of chaos.”’

    All those slogans!
    It sounds like a piss-take, but it’s not.
    She’s really thick.
    And Lynton’s exploiting it to the max.

    She appeals to loads of people.

  20. Jack Murphy says:

    OT.
    March and Rally for Independence SATURDAY:
    “Independence Live? @liveIndyScot 1h1 hour ago
    Problem with Livestream App so Livestreaming to Independence Live Facebook “.

  21. Brian Stobie says:

    Ignorance about what money is and how it is created is the cause of more misery in the world than, well, anything – except maybe religion.
    A contentious statement, you might think, but consider the following.

    In the UK (and other neo-liberal countries) Tory-New Labour austerity is the cause of thousands of deaths and millions of lives lived in poverty or on the edge of poverty. You can starve to death as a punishment for not doing what the state wants you to do. You can freeze to death in winter if you have no heating and your aged body can’t cope.

    The justification for this is ‘we haven’t got any money’.

    In fact in the UK we have the ability to create all the money we like to purchase anything we like that is for sale in our currency, as the deliberately obscurely-named QE shows. Obviously we can’t just keep spending beyond the capacity of the real economy to absorb it, or inflation would get too large. The main reason QE hasn’t helped the economy is that it is the rich that have benefited. They just save or invest it, they don’t go down to Argos and blow a few million. If that QE money had been given to the people directly instead of banks and others then the economy would be in a lot better shape than it is today. Spending creates jobs.

    All money is created by banks out of thin air. All money.
    Apple, Amazon, Google and any other business you would like to mention don’t create any money – that would be illegal.

    The only limits to the economy are real resources such as skilled labour, raw materials and of course the environment, not how many pieces of coloured paper that we can print, or the numbers we type into spreadsheets in computers.

    If you look up the Wikipedia entry for ‘Modern Monetary Theory’ you will learn some facts that everyone should know. We should teach this stuff in school – the world would be a better place for it.

  22. Brian Powell says:

    Talking about money trees, ahem, I wonder if part of the cost of Saturday’s National goes to supporting Bella Caledonia, as there is a BC magazine in it? Will wait til the comments section is longer to air another complaint about a National contributor.

  23. Mark Russell says:

    “Money is a completely artificial construct. It’s a thing humanity has arbitrarily imposed on itself. It’s not a planetary resource that can run out or be destroyed, like metals or oil or oxygen or arable land. We create and withhold it at will, and it could be used just as easily to pay nurses as it was to bail out the banks.”

    If only it were that simple!

  24. Effijy says:

    It’s 2024, Russia has a disput with Latvia over
    Where their true border should be. Russian troops
    Move into the territory killing thousands of NATO
    Troops based there, including British battalions.

    The U.K. Tory PM has an election coming up and
    Needs to score some votes by showing that they
    Are strong. They also secure their future by buying shares
    in weapon manufacture and bottled water stocks.

    The US agrees to give the UK the launch code to send a nuclear
    Missile into the Russian war zone.
    Russian radar is on alert and their fighters intercept a blow up the
    Missile just off the coast of Scotland,

    As Russia now claims to be acting in retaliation, they send several
    Nuclear bombs to Faslane and Rosyth, as they want to wipe out
    Any nuclear weapons stored there.
    The U.K. Cannot stop so many missiles in mid- flight and so Central
    Scotland is completely wiped out.

    As the nuclear fall out blows North, all Scottish Resevoirs are poisoned
    All of our Crops and grazing live stock are contaminated.
    Even fish stocks in the North Sea become contaminated by radiation.

    Those Scots who survive will be contaminated and head toward England
    In search of Hospitals, food, water, and shelter.

    Due to the dangers of cross contamination, shortages of hospital beds, doctors, food and
    Water, a top secret order from Downing Street to the head of the British Army to shoot anyone
    On sight, should they attenpt to cross the border.

    BBC Newsboy announces that despite the Scots best efforts to repell a Russian invasion,
    Scots have virtually been wiped out.
    Her majesty’s glorious English forces have now driven the Russian Army into the sea.

    The re-elected Tory PM promises to crate jobs in Lewis and Orkney, where England will build
    It’s new Nuclear bases.

    Due to the unprecedented costs of building these bases, the NHS will need to be abolished
    and Welfare benefits wiped out completely.

    The Tory Millionaire MPs remind us that they have had to make tough decisions on your behalf with your money and we must remember that we are all in it together!

    One Scot survived and made it into England where he signed an agreement disolving the nation of
    Scotland . You can visit the document in Westminster Palace and see Fluffy’s signature.

    A Yorkshire Man and UKIP supporter appear on BBC Newsboy commenting on how England
    Had shown those Russians how great “we” are!

  25. Athanasius says:

    Words are indeed powerful, Stu. Here are four which are indicative of this piece: “out of the ballpark”.

  26. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, that is the trick. And distract attention from the basically gullible, though largely because it’s not the most important thing in their lives, so to fool the people.

    It’s the same as the Labour tactic n Scotland “Vote Tory to keep out the SNP”, distracting Labour voters from the fact that that could actually keep out the Labour Government in theory they want.

    Imagine if May had a majority of 6, and Scotland had elected 10 Tory MPs. How would those decieved Labour voters feel then?

  27. Jack Murphy says:

    OT. March and Rally for Independence is now up and working,LIVE TODAY. SATURDAY. 🙂

    https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/MarchForIndependence2017

  28. Calum McKay says:

    What struck me last night, were Mrs May’s view of the world is isolationist, but expects every other country to fall at the uk’s feet. Dilussionall!

    Second was how stupid and oblivious to the fate of their fellow men in other countries, some people are. How are North Korea or Iran going to attack the uk with a nuclear weapon? Missile fired or carried by a plane over China, Russia, the entire Middle East and Europe? The guy in the audience, he gave the impression that if the red button was on his house and he was in a bad mood, he’d fire it.

    The young lady in the audience summed it up for me.

    Imagine people from Iran or Noth Korea watching that programme, no wonder they see having nuclear weapons as a means of defence against the west.

  29. Undeadshuan says:

    Under Modern Monetery Theory, money can be printed and not cause infection.
    If instead of quantaive easing for banks, the money was used for infratructure products, it would not cause inflation.

    http://www.3spoken.co.uk/2010/04/primer-on-modern-monetary-theory-mmt.html?m=1
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

  30. PhilM says:

    @muscleguy
    What you say may have some validity if there was no spare capacity in the economy but we are nowhere near that. Nurses for example could be paid more or returned to their 2007-level wage and it would probably stimulate more economic activity without affecting inflation very much. We still have a lot of unemployment and underemployment. You are choosing not to look at the bigger picture.
    Your invocation of New Zealand’s economy has no validity in this particular discussion which was not about exports at all.
    No-one mentioned turning on the taps at all. Time to get back in that neoclassical box my friend.

  31. heedtracker says:

    It is one of the UK’s greatest tory triumphs, that enough voters think tories are good at economics.

    BBC is the great fraud on all of us, as I listen to Dr Nuttall once again bashing on and on about immigration on BBC r4 Any Questions, on and on and on and on…

  32. heedtracker says:

    Undeadshuan says:
    3 June, 2017 at 1:22 pm
    Under Modern Monetery Theory, money can be printed and not cause infection.
    If instead of quantaive easing for banks, the money was used for infratructure products, it would not cause inflation.”

    QE money was given to the banks, so that they would then pump the money into the economy with loans, for business investment, saving the banks, boosting economic growth.

    But guess what the banks did?

  33. defo says:

    Naylor report
    Naylor report
    Naylor report
    Naylor report
    Naylor report
    Naylor report

    Selling off the NHS estate in England WILL have a direct impact on NHS Scotland.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx3hrpDCct8

    http://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-property-and-estates-naylor-review

  34. Iain More says:

    @muscleguy

    “business is awash with cash reserves they are not investing”

    No it isn’t. The majority of FTSE 250 companies are up to their eyeballs in the proverbial. The ones that trade in Euros or in Yankee Dollars in particular have had a temporary relief from their debt problems due to Brexit.

    Most of the so called FTSE companies are paying out dividends with borrowed cash. They are the Banks perfect customers since they have been in long term debt. I wouldn’t buy shares in most of them because they don’t have the cash in the first to pay out dividends or realistically invest. The ones that do have it salted away.

  35. Sarah says:

    Talking of cash reserves, if 9000 Wings readers gave £1 today to Phantom Films “Journey to Yes” indiegogo, the fundraiser would be met.

  36. Pebbles Pete says:

    Breaking News!! the Tory’s Magic Money tree has been found. Please consider sharing.

    https://180degreesnews.com/2017/06/02/breaking-news-tory-britains-magic-money-tree-found/

  37. Ian says:

    QE allowed banks to provide more loans, but these didn’t go to non-financial companies, it went in the form of mortgages, therefore re-inflating the housing market, especially in the south of England. And as the msm never tire of announcing, as long as house prices are increasing, all is well in the UK economy. So it did stoke inflation, but in house prices not the everyday things measured in the headline ‘inflation’ figure.

    The manipulation of the reported ‘inflation’ figure is another can of worms that needs to be exposed. Even simply using previous methods for calculating inflation, say from 1980, today’s inflation rate would be four times higher than the reported one. 10% or so.

  38. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Talking of cash reserves, if 9000 Wings readers gave £1 today to Phantom Films “Journey to Yes” indiegogo, the fundraiser would be met.”

    Then LINK TO IT. Sheesh, readers.

  39. Sarah says:

    Sorry, Rev!

    Dare I confess that I haven’t learnt how to do links yet? Or shall I slink away, ashamed….

  40. TheStrach says:

    Thanks for the reminder re. Phantom Power. I’ve just donated.

  41. Hamish100 says:

    Feeling a wee bit drookit in Glasgow. Starting to head home. Maybe post GE Holyrood can call BBC scotchland to discuss the planting of speakers in the QT and other audiences. One of Corbyns critics last night ( a young lady with facial studs) I am certain has been on television before.

    Why? How? And whom makes the decisions on such programmes.
    That can stretch to call Kay with an e. Angry fishermen from Peterheid type callers.
    It is the sort of thing a watchdog should do but they are all placemen and women who are linked. Q How many watchdog folk are from private schooling or from housing schemes. They tell us how we should think and try and influence how we vote. Impartial – laugh along

  42. Marcia says:

    Here is a link to the Phantom Power fundraiser.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/journey-to-yes-film#/

    Seems there is a very large turnout at the Independence March in Glasgow. Naughty people not listening to Ruth the Mooth.

  43. mike d says:

    Hamish 100 well done you guys and gals. I was up last year for the indy March. From bournemouth. Sorry couldn’t make it this year,health probs. You are all a credit to Scotland. God bless each and every one of you. True Scotsmen and women.

  44. Dave Hansell says:

    Ian Moore,

    It is not just dividends that many top companies -Apple being a case in point – are using borrowed money to pay out. Many are using borrowed money, created out of thin air by QE, to buy their own stock in order to make it look as though they are increasing the value of the company through productive innovation.

    Meanwhile real investment is virtually non existent as the economies of the West, particularly the Anglo – Saxondale economies of the UK and USA are largely geared up to serve the interests of feudal rentiers. The kind of entrepreneurial society that Hayak and Joseph glove puppet, Thatcher, waxed lyrical about is but a post Brexit mirage as tech companies and tech workers head for the exit

    http://www.computerweekly.com/news/450418721/Almost-three-quarters-of-tech-workers-thinking-of-leaving-UK-after-Brexit?platform=hootsuite

    ……along with at least one (with probably more to follow) airline

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/ryanair-uk-could-be-left-with-no-flights-tofrom-europe-after-brexit-2017-3

    Those arguing that creating QE for investment in the country’s infrastructure is a magic money tree which will create inflation and tank the economy need to explain why the same process used for the benefit of the rentier class does the exact opposite in their view rather than this distraction tactic.

  45. Thepnr says:

    Phantom power films fundraiser, only 2 days left and 47% funded so far.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/journey-to-yes-film#/

    Please do what you can. Everybody doing their little bit does make a difference though only give what you can spare. It’s a hard fight this Independence lark but I can attest as to the power of these films if you can get a No voting relative or close friend to watch even three of this series, it will have an effect.

    Truth is most people don’t have a clue, these short films help act as an antidote to the state sponsored propaganda from the BBC and Newspapers in this country.

    Also a new film released in the past hour, I won’t link to it as I’m sure it will be up on Wings by the Rev.

    Journey to Yes #14 The devastating impact of Tory hard Brexit on Scotland’s Farmers.

  46. Thepnr says:

    @Marcia

    You beat me to it. Good 🙂

  47. call me dave says:

    “Thousands march in Glasgow in support of independence”
    says Auntie.

    https://archive.is/NHMhN

  48. colin alexander says:

    In 2014, Scotland’s population voted NO to the question: “Should Scotland be an independent country?” , so Scotland should remain in the Union, argue Unionists.

    It’s a powerful argument: Scotland’s people decided the issue. Scottish democracy decided. Scottish sovereignty.

    I believe, it should always be Scotland that decides Scotland’s issues. It’s Scotland who should decide which powers are devolved to Westminster, for as long as Scotland remains part of the Union.

    Also, if Scotland wishes to have a referendum on anything, that should be for Scotland to decide.

    In other words: Scotland should always be sovereign. However, under the current constitutional set up of the Union, Westminster is sovereign in everything, even in issues affecting Scotland.

    Even in devolved matters, powers can be recalled back to WM ( It has happened already). Legally and constitutionally, Holyrood can be disbanded by WM. Westminster is sovereign. The Smith Commission confirmed that. The recent court case on Brexit legally confirmed WM is sovereign.

    Scotland’s parliament should be sovereign. How much of Scottish affairs is decided at Holyrood or devolved to WM should be a decision for Scotland’s people, not for WM to decide.

    If people want or don’t want another referendum, that should be Holyrood’s decision. Whether we want Home Rule as part of the UK should be Holyrood’s decision.

    If Scotland’s Parliament decides we should remain part of the Union but with more powers, Scotland’s Parliament should decide what those powers should be.

    Before any decisions are made on staying in the Union or full independence, this matter should be settled.

    Scotland is sovereign. Scotland’s Parliament should be sovereign.
    Devolution should be something Holyrood devolves to WM, not WM sovereign over Scotland’s democracy and deciding what powers it will devolve – or loan – to Scotland.

    Scotland did indeed reject independence in 2014. She was never asked if should Scotland’s parliament be sovereign or WM sovereign within the Union.

    I believe many who voted NO and those who voted YES would agree Scotland’s Parliament, Scotland’s people should be sovereign, not Westminster.

    Whether Unionist or independist, I believe we should all assert Scotland’s sovereignty. Scotland’s right to make it’s own democratic decisions.

  49. Lenny Hartley says:

    O/t that was some turnout in Glasgow, a steward told me that the police estimate was 15 to 17 k, as we know the police normally underestimate numbers, I was near the front and could not see the rear at any point. Good to have a quick chat to some Wosers Ian Brotherhood, Ronnie, Paula Rose and saw xsticks but to many folk milling around the wings stall to say hello.
    Pity about the thunderstorm which happened when we arrived at the Glasgow Green. Good day out, one of the largest Indy marches I have been on, on par size wise with sept 13 in Edinburgh.

  50. colin alexander says:

    The independence question is a long way from being settled, but it’s an issue that won’t go away.

    Scottish Sovereignty is an issue that should be settled now as part of the Union.

    Scotland’s parliament should be sovereign. It should decide which powers are devolved, referendums – all matters affecting Scotland.

    If there are devolved powers run by Westminster, it should be for Holyrood to decide what those are. It should be for Holyrood to be able to recall or overrule decisions by WM in all matters affecting Scotland.

    That is an issue that could be settled much sooner.

  51. Arbroath1320 says:

    Apologies for going O/T and sorry if this link has already been posted.

    Congratulations Stu, Wings over Scotland … voice of sanity! 🙂

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKKN9GqQ8do

  52. Capella says:

    Chipped in some more to Phantom films – now over the £8,000 mark but still less than 50% of what they need. So I’ll post the link again.
    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/journey-to-yes-film#/

  53. Scott says:

    The photo of the 6 men going for Corbyn,does anyone recognize the middle one in the bottom line I’m sure I have seen him on a program before and not N Sturgeon come on you computer buffs surely you can find out.

  54. Ann says:

    What got me though is the guy thought that it would be May or Corbyn would push the button and we know they don’t because the US does the dirty deed.

    To think we are spending 200 Billion on something that we dont control is absolute madness.

  55. SovereignWill says:

    The docks point is well made.

    When we’re independent and rUK are out of Europe we are going to need several world class container ports.

  56. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sarah says: 3 June, 2017 at 2:33 pm:

    “Dare I confess that I haven’t learnt how to do links yet? Or shall I slink away, ashamed….”

    O/k. Sarah, Here’s what you do and it really is simple.

    First you highlight the address in the address bar at the top of the page where you are reading, viewing or listening to the link.

    To highlight the address you place the cursor at the beginning of the link while left clicking it and draw the cursor along to the end of the link.

    Now press the ctrl and copy keys on your keyboard together or right click the highlighted link. Right clicking brings down a menu that includes copy, cut and paste. click on copy.

    Either of these actions copies the link to your clipboard.

    Now go to the post you want the link to be in – (for example your comment on Wings).

    Then place the cursor where you want the link to appear and press the ctrl and V keys on your keyboard at the same time or again right click to get the dropdown menu and this time click on paste.

    Either of these actions will paste your link where you want it to be.

    However, please not that, (for YouTube links only), you must highlight the bit of the pasted link before, “www.”, and delete it. That is, for YouTube links only, delete the, “http://”, bit of the link.

    For YouTube links Wings will replace the bit you deleted.

    It sounds much more complicated than it really is.

    Hope that helps. It is harder to explain it than it is to do it.
    :-))

  57. MsDidi says:

    BBC news on line are quoting the official police figure of 17,000 on the march in Glasgow today. The Herald is saying “hundreds of pro-independence demonstrators!” It will be interesting to see what – if anything – mis-reporting Scotland have to say at tea-time…..

  58. Not Convinced says:

    Part of the reason that Quantitative Easing didn’t produce inflation was that a large chunk of the world economy was doing it! It’s kinda hard for the UK to generate inflation from QE, when the USA, Japan and the Eurozone are all doing it too.

    However describing the process as “creating money and giving it to the banks / the rich” is hardly an accurate description of the process. Yes, the money was created but it was then *spent* buying up financial assets (largely though not entirely government debt). This had several effects, most notably hammering interest rates which was bad news for anyone trying to live off the interest of their savings account(s)[1] but obviously the people who sold those assets to the BoE then did something with the money! (And I doubt it was shove it under their mattress!) *In theory* they either spent the money thus producing demand in the economy, or in an effort to get a reasonable return invested in something more risky than gilts – again *in theory* this should generate a shift of money up the risk pyramid as people seek to take on more risk in order to get the same return they where previously expecting, which ultimately should see people lending to new / small business.

    Unfortunately at the same time the banks where (a) trying to recover from their losses in the “great financial crisis” and (b) responding to the requirements of the Basel III agreement which meant they needed to meet higher capital requirements. Thus they where lending less, so I’d guess QE just helped to counter that reduction?

    Something else the government did (and was still doing at the beginning of this year) was effectively providing “match funding” to Peer-to-Peer lenders, thus directly loaning to consumers and small businesses. That doesn’t seem to have got a lot of coverage in the media.

    [1] Though given inflation, trying to live off savings interest is generally a pretty stupid idea anyway.

  59. Dorothy Devine says:

    Just having a wee practice !

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7K7SaEgB7w

    If this works I have Mr Peffers to thank – I have tried to post this before but with the http in place so I think it was unsuccessful ( more hammers – trembling!)

  60. Thepnr says:

    Worked braw Dorothy, just off to watch it now 🙂

  61. Dorothy Devine says:

    I took off the http bit – honest but it somehow returned!

  62. David says:

    Though I understand the sentiment and the jist of this post it is rather factually inaccurate to suggest that a government can simply ‘print money’.

    Money is loaned into existence in our present system. The minute you create more money, you create more an equal debt and weaken the underlying currency.

    Bailing out the banks might have seemed like being forced to eat a giant shit sandwich at gunpoint but there were fundamental reason for doing it – nobody wants a collapsed economy unless they want mass unrest, mass poverty (yes, real poverty unlike what many ascribe the word to now). The money markets needed liquidity and the bailout served it. As shitty as it is. Jobs do come from applied capital after all.

    One of my main arguments for Scottish independence is just how utterly screwed Britain is economically and its pretty bleak future. Thats a fact. Nobody is going to change that now without massive changes in policy and thinking, and printing money is just another way to devalue what is already there.

    What simply needs to happen is the abolition of trident and all the other bullshit the British establishment pays for and it to be used for more sane purposes – like paying nurses.

  63. Lenny Hartley says:

    Dorothy re the http bit, think it automatically puts it in that’s why u have to leave it off otherwise out would have two and the link would not work,

  64. Hamish100 says:

    As to the crowd size I see the Huffington post says 7000 at the Raleigh . Total twaddle or at worse a lie.

    There are various ways crowds are calculated. Let’s ask the police how they do it . 20 folk abreast X Raleigh over X km = what.

    Proud to have been there. Worthwhile whatever the numbers.

    SNP on Thursday.

  65. gus1940 says:

    RE QE manufactured cash going to the banks I would like to know how much of it was lent at extortionate rates to the Pay Day Loan crooks – nice little earner for the banks leaving the PDL shower able to charge interest rates in the 1000’s.

    I seem to remember that when the QE cash was magicked complaints were rife that the banks were not lending to businesses – the above may explain why.

  66. Alba woman says:

    Just returned from the Independence March and rally. Fantastic experience. Just such a lovely uplift to the old spirits. Good fun as ever with the crowd numbers estimated by police as 20,000. What a great day for Scotland!

  67. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dorothy Devine says: 3 June, 2017 at 4:03 pm:

    “I took off the http bit – honest but it somehow returned.

    Indeed it does, Dorothy. That’s what it is supposed to do. That’s was the last bit I attempted to describe.

    Apparently it is a, “WordPress”, thing and is built into WordPress blogs.

    Anyway, now you can share your favourite links with us all.

  68. Thepnr says:

    O/T again but Re Phantom Power films and their fundraiser, I’ve just watched the latest #14 and it’s absolutely my favourite.

    I live in a very rural area and am sick of the sight of large posters with “Vote Tory to Stop Indyref2” in farmers fields.

    These are not the type of farmers depicted in this film who like the majority of farmers are just tenants to very wealthy landowners. This couple in the film are very level headed and only just eking out a living but are also totally dependent on EU subsidies as are most farmers in Scotland.

    One born in England and the other in Scotland to English parents, they will be voting SNP to get rid of Mundell which please me a lot 🙂

    I don’t believe that the farming like the fishing industry in Scotland who are also dependent on EU funds really know what is going to hit them when the UK once again assumes power over farming and fishing and the subsidies from the EU dry up.

    Imaging voting for your own extinction? Mental isn’t it.

    If you can spare a £1 send it their way then use these films to win over support, it does work. If you need to strap a No voter into a chair in your living room to do this, then needs must.

    Quality of this type can help us win, please support if you can.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/journey-to-yes-film#/

    I think even a £1 is worth 1000 leaflets that you yourself could deliver but only if we can encourage those No voters closest to us to watch. Good luck and let’s never give in.

  69. Wings of Eagles 40/1 has just won the Derby.

    This would have been a good bet for wingers.

  70. Fireproofjim says:

    Hampshire 100
    Even the BBC say there were more than 17,000 marchers. What a great turnout with Inderef 2 still years away. Congratulations to all concerned.

  71. K1 says:

    I second Thpnr’s post regarding number 14 in the phantom powers ‘No to Yes’ series, this needs to be spread far and wide. Articulate, sane and rational discourse on the reality of Brexit and what it means for our food safety, our environment, our farmers. To have this quality of production values, to have the farmers waking up to the lies told by the msm about the SNP and their policies exposed by those who voted No will do more for our cause than we can yet imagine.

    Get this up on twitter, Facebook and all manner of other dissemination, it is by far the most powerful film that combines the passionate and heartbreaking realisation on the morning of the EU Leave vote and the dawning of the true impact on their lives, it is human, it is real, not fabricated sentiment.

    These farmers feed us, without them Scotland dies, it is that stark.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKKN9GqQ8do

    (Thanks for posting LA) And yes Wings gets a big thumbs up: ‘the voice of sanity’. He should put that in his twitter handle 😉

  72. Ghillie says:

    Saw great photos of Indy March!

    What a bonnie sight = )

    Well done to all who attended 🙂

    It is so very important to keep getting our message out there. Have a lovely evening now folks!

  73. heraldnomore says:

    Journey to Yes 14. Lanarkshire farmers, Brexit, CAP, and Wings. Belter.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKKN9GqQ8do

  74. heraldnomore says:

    Ah K1, you beat me to it…

  75. heraldnomore says:

    Ah K1, you beat me to it, apologies for duplicating folks

  76. Sinky says:

    O/T I thought one of our TV channels would have shown the 1967 Scotland V England football game this week as part of the build up to the World Cup match next Saturday.

    Or like Outlander that would be too political … particularly in a general election week.

  77. gerry parker says:

    Great day at the Indy march in Glasgow. Tweeted some photo’s along the way. Hot bath, feet up and recovering now.

  78. Thepnr says:

    Well done to all the Wings readers sticking a couple of bob into funding Phantom Power films. I’m in tears so I am. Just kidding.

    We will do this though, we can win and we will win. Get in there.

  79. call me dave says:

    @sinky

    U20s just finished.

    Scotland 1 V Brazil 0

  80. mike cassidy says:

    If ever there was a reason for justifying the existence of Twitter –

    then its the fact that this wonderful bit of footage can be shared.

    Tom’s mum tells it like it is.

    https://twitter.com/tomosgjames

  81. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Went on the march today. Rarely been so uplifted.
    I marched from Kelvingrove to the turn off Sauchiehall Street at Pitt Street and I stood aside there at 11.15.
    The end of the march passed me at 12.15.

    There will have been 20,000 on that and a handful – five I think – of swearing Better together idiots shouting abuse in George Square.
    Anybody got a photo of them?

    Have just watched some of the Livestreaming with thousands – literally thousands – of love and good luck messages from all around the world flooding in.

    The whole world is waiting for us – and we must activate the world wide Scottish diaspora as soon as possible.

  82. Phronesis says:

    Inspiring march in Glasgow today- ma, pa and the weans, grannies, grandads, pushchairs, wheelchairs, bikers, lots of four legged friends and the fantastic unicorn at the front.
    The sun was out, rain on for a bit and real thunder on the green-an amazing upbeat atmosphere. What is UKOK going to do about the YES movement.
    Despite the PM hiring a squad of cognitive linguists to develop metaphor themes and frame the political non- debate to keep us believing that any perceived threat fits into familiar problem solving strategies we now know that ‘strong and stable’, ‘magic money tree’ ‘precious union’ function to create false hope and a false consciousness and are in fact utter claptrap.

    The YES movement-which was out in force today- has ideational metaphors of its own which actually mean something because their persuasive appeal is rooted in the truth;
    Bairns not Bombs
    Navy not Nuclear
    Hope Over Fear

  83. HandandShrimp says:

    Delighted to see an excellent turnout in Glasgow. I opted to man the local SNP stall today and am pleased to say that this was a positive experience too. The vibe has changed over the last couple of weeks. Hopefully that will feed through to the Thursday vote and that the younger voters will turn to and vote.

  84. Robert Graham says:

    Caltonjock – Thanks for the links and information, re – Pisa results & Farm subsidies payments , its the first time I have read a clear explanation of both , the farm payments was particularly informative, and I am surprised the SNP haven’t considered a short explanation regarding the history of these payments and how farmers in Scotland were mugged by Westminster , ok there was IT mishaps but until people learn why then they blindly believe that the SNP are at fault , Like most other things apparently devolved from Westminster the devil is in the detail, unfortunately with our media and the BBC the relevant detail is submerged under SNP bad rhetoric

  85. Thepnr says:

    So sad I missed it now, well done all those that attended. Anything that raises the profile of the Yes Indy support can only be good in my opinion.

    To be absolutely honest I don’t give a monkey’s who the speakers were all that mattered to me was the show of ordinary and their weans and dug turning up.

    This definitely sends a message both to the Independence support which it bolsters and to the Unionist opposition. Let’s see them try and organise such a turnout full of flute bands.

    Well done all you attendees, hope you had a good day and came home inspired to do that bit more. Participation = Inspiration.

  86. Iain says:

    Teresa is looking very wibly wobbly,labia (to use the new name )is slightly more credible in uk terms.
    But the SNP is the only option for a free and fair Scotland.

  87. heedtracker says:

    Other news,

    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/edl-laughed-liverpool-benny-hill-13133627?service=responsive

    Also, we just postal voted,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callum_McCaig

    He’s a top tory target but he’s a future Scottish Prime Minister.

    Sorry Callum’s a top Ruth Davidson party target but he’s a future Scottish Prime Minister.

    The future is Scottish 😀

  88. Gary45% says:

    The Blue Yoons are hell bent on keeping Trident, because their Zionist/American masters make colossal amounts of money from arms/weapons. (Fear = money)
    Out for a cycle today and the wife and I had a conversation about the state of the planet at the moment.We are both in our mid/late 50s and we can honestly say we have personally never remembered such a desperate time for the planet.
    Trident is a fallacy because it can never be used until the end of days, which will never happen.
    Any inbred who says we need them is clueless.

    Nicola in Corbyn’s back pocket will be the theme for the rest of the election, it worked in 2015 and lets face it some of the English are pretty dim, unless it involves some brain dead shite on the telly, they have no clue on reality.
    Hell mend them.

  89. heedtracker says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    3 June, 2017 at 6:33 pm
    Delighted to see an excellent turnout in Glasgow.

    We went! Great fun.

    Also want to give big shout out to the three SNP campaigners outside Lidl on Victoria Road at lunchtime, who were very lovely and gave me loads of vote Alison Thewliss for Glasgow Central stuff.

    One of the asked me if I can canvass. I do not know, I answered:D

  90. Sarah says:

    @Marcia, Thepnr and Robert Peffers – Thank you!!

    I’ve just got back in from slinking away for penitential weeding accompanied by midges and found your very helpful links and posts. I see the Phantom Power fundraiser is going a lot better now. And I will have a go at doing a link, Robert!

  91. Iain says:

    The election is crucial
    We will win, your support is crucial
    Freedom is in our grasp

  92. mike cassidy says:

    Just realised my 6.17 should have pointed out that Tom’s Mum is telling it like it is to a Tory canvasser who turns up at her door.

    Now if only some of the SNP representatives would show that sort of aggression when dealing with the MSM!

  93. Capella says:

    RT managed to get a camera and reporter to the Glasgow march.

    https://on.rt.com/8dhj

  94. defo says:

    gus1940 says: at 4:22 pm

    “RE QE manufactured cash going to the banks I would like to know how much of it was lent at extortionate rates to the Pay Day Loan crooks…”

    There might have been a few squid flung to the sharks Gus, but I seem to remember that the biggies slung it straight at the ECB, and got a nice little earner out of it.

  95. defo says:

    Re Labia party. PFP (not feeling crude today, you KNOW what I mean)
    It seems apt, given the amount of pish Kez spouts.

    PFP could catch on…

  96. Bob Mack says:

    Well done everyone who managed today. Fabulous turnout.
    Donation made to Phantom films. I feel good today. Upbeat and positive.

  97. gerry parker says:

    I heard that Kezia was in Coatbridge today but didn’t stay long. Phil Boswells street stall very popular.
    Dave Hill. Sorry I didn’t see you today but I’ll pop down to Dunoon shortly and pay the Forward shop a visit. Got some photo’s of the March on Twitter @Gerrydotp
    Police very strict with the crowd as we passed the 4 Union flag wavers who were booing us so didn’t manage to get a photo. Move along now they said, don’t heed the Bears.
    ?

  98. gordoz says:

    Interesting fact from the Glasgow march today,
    Someone correct me if I’m wrong. Lots of anti Tory, Indy for Scotland and anti T May chanting, yet not one word against Labour.
    But still they gate with vitriolic rage, the entire Yes / SNP movement.

  99. gordoz says:

    Dave Hill –

    See story on sun pages for pics

    Gordz ?

  100. Big Phil says:

    The power of wings is amazing,as soon as my daughter and I arrived at kelvingrove park a lovely lady recognised my daughters green hair and said she saw my post on wings this morning, I was well chuffed.
    The march itself was amazing, friendly and happy people everywhere, we wer all friends out fer a wee walk.Really felt part of summit Big. One of the speakers said there were 25000 people. Brilliant day. 😉

  101. Thepnr says:

    @Wee Ginger Dug or Macart

    Sorry Rev for using your site for this but I honestly can’t find a direct link to WGD email on his website. For some reason I no longer get notifications of his latest posts by email, has been the way for at least 3 weeks.

    Just wondering if anyone else is experiencing the same thing?

  102. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –

    You were missed and mentioned buddy – Smallaxe in particular.

    Your ‘Participation = Inspiration’ slogan is spot-on. My son came along today with one his pals and thoroughly enjoyed it all. He’s often heard me banging-on abut these marches/demos WOS Friends nights etc but was never that interested. For some reason he decided today was the day, with no cajoling from me, and I think he’s got the bug now.

    There is no buzz like it, just being among like-minded folk with the same aim. The atmosphere was crackling and the lightning at Glasgow Green got some of the biggest cheers of the day. Soo-perb battery-charger all round.

    🙂

  103. mike d says:

    So jealous of you guys at the march,couldn’t make it from bournemouth. Scotland is rightly proud of you,and the world is watching.

  104. Iain says:

    We will be free.
    That is inevitable.
    Scotland deserves freedom.
    We need freedom.
    It in our grasp, we need to size it.
    You know it makes sense!

  105. Artyhetty says:

    Excellent article today.

    Getting a wee bit worried though. Out delivering letters today, came across an aquaintance who was a yes voter. Says she is toying witn voting Labour cos she ‘loves Jeremy Corbyn’. I had to say Scotland needs SNP MPs, but was up against a brick wall. A friend of hers said I was talking ‘rubbish’ when I said labour/tories had kept Scotland poor. She said SNP have had ’10 years and what will they do if they are reelected’. Oh my fckg god. I said the yoons had 300+ yrs, but she repeated the SNP ‘have had 10 years’, oh dear I said that is not good maths.

    Worse, a close friend, not politically literate, confused to say the very, very least, thinking her SNP vote could be a ‘wasted’ vote because (having watched bbc wall to wall) it’s ‘only between the two’ ie, Tory and Labour. I just wonder if this is a new tactic, to obviously ignore/exclude the SNP so as to make it you have to vote Labour for a UK wide result!

    People watching the bbc really are being brainwashed, it’s freaking scary.

    My 1984 style, ‘Your No License Needed claim expires soon. Please get in touch’. Tv tax letter arrived today. I won’t say what I have written in response.

    We may well see Labour gains in Scotland, due to ignorance, stupidity and propaganda. It’s freaking terrifying, people think that their vote is for Corbyn! Honestly, these folk have no idea and will let the tories in by default. Oh crikey.

    Ok, the ScotGov have some major work to do to inform every single voter in Scotland about how the whole of the political arena operates in the so called UK! Info to every household please,very soon, if not too late.

  106. Bob p says:

    Ruthie,kezia,did you’s see that March today? Sorry what was that? Scotland doesn’t want another independence referendum.

  107. gerry parker says:

    Bob p.
    Just read on twitter A Darling was on the news saying there’s no apatite for a referendum.
    That Lords champagne must be powerful stuff!

  108. mike d says:

    Artyhetty,yes my sister in Scotland says she will vote liebor to save her winter fuel allowance. I kid you not,banging my head off a brick wall. I suppose she gets her gullibility/stupidity from the Scottish side of our extended family. Because it certainly isn’t from the Irish side.

  109. Bob p says:

    Gerry Parker. Lol.

  110. Capella says:

    @ artyhetty – panic not! The polls are indicating that the opposition is split in Scotland between Labour and Tory. Yes they have entered into secret pacts with paper candidates so that the other unionist has a better chance.

    Nevertheless, it looks like 50% of he vote is Unionist and 50% SNP/Green. We have a few days to go and the SNP has only just published their manifesto and got campaigning seriously.

    Plenty reasons to be optimistic, not least the success of the march in Glasgow today.
    Check out Scot Goes Pop for latest poll analysis.
    http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/are-you-hiding-behind-sofa-theresa-now.html

    As Putin said in Petersburg – Don’t Worry, Be Happy (yes he really did say that – in English)

  111. mike d says:

    Apologies to yes scots.

  112. Capella says:

    Don’t worry – be happy
    https://on.rt.com/8dec

    Good advice any time.

  113. Thepnr says:

    @Artyhetty

    Agree with Capella, no need to fret that I can see, this tactical voting crap will work against them as far as I can see, for example in Edinburgh South do you vote Labour to keep Ian Murray or do what your instinct tells you and vote Tory?

    I’ve no idea what they will do in seats such as these East Renfrewshire ect. Digging a big hole for themselves is what I reckon.

    Stay positive, the SNP will win this election handsomely by getting the most votes and the most seats. We really don’t need to ask for more though I’m hoping for more.

    And why not? We have the power not the crap media, let’s use it.

  114. HandandShrimp says:

    See the student grilling Corbyn on zero contracts the other night is a posh ex public schoolboy with about as much chance of starving as Eric Pickles.

    BBC = fake news

  115. Artyhetty says:

    Re.Capella@8.28

    Aw thats a positive, thanks. Not been online much, but the Glasgow march today appears to have been a huge success. Fantastic.

    Yep thanks I will take a look at Scotgoespop latest results.

  116. ben madigan says:

    @hand and shrimp who mentioned the posh lad grilling Corbyn on 0-hour contracts

    Mr Corbyn certainly put him in his place! Did you notice the expression on his face when Mr Corbyn had finished his polite and exhaustive answer?

  117. Bob Mack says:

    Latest survation results.

    Tories 40%
    Labour 39%

    Could get interesting and focus a lot of minds

  118. Artyhetty says:

    Re Threpner@8.45

    🙂

    It is certainly going to be an interesting next few days and General UK election 2017. Politics should be high up on any school curriculum, then economics then sociology, then media studies. All of those subjects are intertwined, along with arts and science, past and present.

    I will be dropping by aquaintance house with info on what the ScotGov have achieved in the last few short, ’10 years’. 300, or 10, hmm.

  119. Robert Louis says:

    Absolutely fantastic turnout for the march in Glasgow today. Pretty sure they said 25000 (from the PA in Glasgow green), but I may have mis-heard. Shame about the rain later.

    Lots of chants about the BBC on the march – seems it is now common knowledge that the BBC in Scotland are just a bunch of grovelling London serving, propagandist liars.

    I think it is the biggest march I’ve seen for indy – even compared to the big ones in Edinburgh around 2014.

    Botom line is this, today’s march makes it clear, the unionist and media lies about their being ‘no demand for independence’, is utter b*ll*cks. But of course we knew that anyway, since Ruth Davidson keeps saying their is no demand, and we know she just tells lies all the time, just like Theresa May.

    Just make sure you vote on Thursday, and everybody you know votes too. Every single vote will count. It is very much game on.

    If you can help, see below.

    https://www.snp.org/volunteer

  120. Meg merrilees says:

    Capella

    Followed your link on the indy march report on RT and found this as well.

    https://www.rt.com/news/386093-uk-nuclear-strike-russia/

    Interestingly, they cost the renewal of trident to be £225 billion.

  121. Capella says:

    @ Meg merrilees – indeed, nuclear annihilation is certain if Michael Fallon follows through with his threat of a preemptive strike. Of course, the Russian nukes really are a deterrent, unless the Tory leadership has completely lost their marbles.

  122. Fred says:

    Great day-oot at the march, joined at W.George Street to the Green, met a guy in a Panama hat who I just knew was Smallaxe! Thunder superb, then a wee pub crawl!

  123. James Barr Gardner says:

    March and rally was great today although the pace was a wee bit fast, the plods seemed to want to speed it up?

    The Marches are now doubling in size every outing, hopefully come Sept 16th maybe 50,000 will flood Freedom Square, perhaps that will convince wee untruthess to shut her yap.

    Hope Rev Stu had wee bet on Wings of Eagles today, time for dram or two, I will sleep peacefully tonight another great day for Scotland.

  124. wee bud says:

    Wish I could have made the march today. Sitting in a pub in Campbeltown listening to a Celtic fan builder type on the next table shouting how he is voting tory because of Johnny foreigner and how Sturgeon is just working her ticket and will bankrupt us.
    Quite depressing but msm and bbc do work! We have the only wind turbine factory I think in Scotland and the tory supports the cuts to grants..

  125. mike d says:

    Wee bud,in ma 60’s and celtic in ma blood,a****oles like the racist one you met,ain’t no celtic fan. Believe me.

  126. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Robert Louis –

    Today was surely the biggest march in Scotland since the ‘Not In Our Name’ against Blair/Iraq Invasion in, what, 2003?

    Aye, the Edinburgh ones were huge as well. I’m struggling to remember dates, but the Calton Hill one (where Salmond spoke, and Stu gave out the badges!) was maybe the closest.

    ‘Problem’ with Glasgow Green is that it’s such a huge space (thank all the gods, despite GCC efforts to sell it off) that it doesn’t ever ‘feel’ that busy, never ever appears ‘crammed’. Today, the size of the crowd was better appreciated from the shots of the march en-route rather than at the Green.

    And the atmosphere?

    Seriously – I’ve been on a good few of these things, and today was special.

  127. Free Scotland says:

    There is more political perceptiveness on display in this one article than can be found in an entire issue of the Herald.

  128. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Anybody got a link to to any live coverage that I can send on.

  129. caz m says:

    Ronnie Anderson, Ian Brotherhood and the rest of the gang, I hope it all went to plan and you all had a great day.

    First big Rally I have missed. (Car Trouble. Beelin’)

    Anyway, look forward to seeing the pics and videos from today.

    Well done to everyone involved.

  130. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ian B think it was Sept 13 in Edinburgh, I was thinking today that the marches were a similar size, however I was near the front and there were a good few thousand at Glasgow Green when I arrived, pity the thunderstorm hit when it did as the crowd dispersed pretty sharply, but I would say that today was the biggest Indy March by numbers I have ever attended.
    Everything put into perspective by the yoon protest at George sq was lucky if there were half a dozen on them. Lots of bystanders I’m sure would have looked at their glum faces and our good natured upbeat March and I’m sure would rather be with us than them.
    Considering we are nearing the end of a general election campaign and lots of Indy supporters were busy with that the turn out today was remarkable.

  131. Robert Peffers says:

    @colin alexander says: 3 June, 2017 at 3:26 pm:

    “The independence question is a long way from being settled, but it’s an issue that won’t go away.”

    I believe you are wrong there, Colin.
    The matter is very close and when it comes it will be sudden and final.

    “Scottish Sovereignty is an issue that should be settled now as part of the Union.”

    That is never going to happen. The facts are far too clear and cannot be either ignored or got round.

    Westminster has stated that the Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom. This is born out by the fact that Westminster now operates as the de facto parliament of the country of England and yet there is not a single member elected as a member of the parliament of England but Westminster is devolving English sovereign powers to the only other kingdom that is a partner in the United Kingdom.

    The fact that it uses EVEL to prevent the Welsh, Northern Irish and the Scots from interfering in English only matters shows that the government at Westminster considers itself to be the de facto parliament of England and is treating Wales, N.I. & Scotland as English Dominions.

    There is only one legal way to end such a sham for the laws of Scotland are that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign. That way is for a majority of the Scottish electorate to democratically vote end the Union and we have a stand off.

    Scots law, and Scottish jurisdiction is recognised internationally, says that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and Her Majesty is the defender of the people’s sovereignty and the people can drive out a monarch who will not defend that sovereignty. English law says that Her Majesty is sovereign in England, Wales & N.I. but has legally delegated her sovereignty to the Parliament of England.

    Her Majesty must thus choose either to defend the people of Scotland’s sovereignty or resign before she is pushed.

    English law is more than a little vague as to Her Majesty’s prerogative and I feel that is soon to be tested in law. Question is, though, whose law?

    Scotland’s, England’s, the Council of Europe, The EU, United Nations?

    Your guess is as good as anyone else’s, Colin but one way or another the matter is very close to being contested and legally or illegally resolved.

    I would venture a guess that whatever side attempts to settle it illegally is heading for a loss.

  132. sassenach says:

    Was unable to get to the rally, but had an enjoyable afternoon in Dumfries centre for the visit of Nicola (in support of Mr Arkless).

    Good crowd and the FM was her usual self, almost had to be prised away from folk wanting to speak and photograph her as she walked among the crowds.

    Do we know just how lucky we are to have her, and not someone like “Submarine” Theresa?! (Who, her colleagues say, always ‘drops below the surface’ anytime a problem occurs – hence THEIR nickname for her – ‘submarine’).

  133. bugsbunny says:

    Breaking News. A white van has been driven into pedestrians on London Bridge. Can’t theses fuckers see they are playing into Theresa Mays hands. Hope everyone is ok.

  134. defo says:

    That’s the point of it bugsbunny !

  135. gus1940 says:

    sassenach @10.39

    Would this be the same Nicola Sturgeon whose support is alleged to have collapsed?

  136. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The crowd marching today were chanting “You won’t see this on the BBC!”

    Absolutely correct.

    A huge march brings one of the UK’s largest cities almost to a standstill and it is not on the BBC

  137. Lenny Hartley says:

    Looks like a major incident in London, RT reporting vehicle knocked people on pavement and reports of gunfire and others talking of stabbing. hope no serious injuries or worse. Leaving my thoughts of consequences in ma heid !

  138. BJ says:

    Another major incident just as the Tories are struggling. What a coincidence.

  139. wee bud says:

    mike d..
    Didn’t mean to generalise Celtic fans.. Just couldn’t believe his attitude.. I ended up talking to a Latvian builder who was brand new and didn’t even think of talking politics..
    Sorry for going off topic..

  140. Bob Mack says:

    To those who think this incident helps the Tories it most certainly does not. That is 3 major terrorist incidents since May became PM. Police cuts. Strong and stable my ar#e.
    More like weak and wobbly.

  141. Robbo says:

    Sad sad world we live in these days.

    Don’t be surprised if this election gets cancelled.

  142. Lenny Hartley says:

    Bob Mac terrorist incidents traditionally would help the Tories but now thanks to social media everybody and their donkey in England knows that May cut police numbers etc so they won’t get any significant bounce.

  143. Robbo says:

    Sad sad world we live in these days.Hope not too many innocents are injured.

  144. defo says:

    You’re seeing it from YOUR point of view Bob, as we do.
    The Tories have traditionally been seen as the party of ‘law & order’.
    When times are tough, or people feel under threat, they tend to go with the familiar, rather than ‘risking’ the new.

    To those who see ‘false flags’, maybe. But more likely the push comes from overseas. These ideologically inspired fruits who carry out the crimes DON’T want to negotiate, they have NO goal.Their ideology is nihilistic, and apocalyptic.
    Those behind them… well, the usual. The acquisition, and retention of power.

  145. Big Jock says:

    Celtic fans are 90% Republican and pro indy in the main. You get some real eejits who will vote Tory and waive a union flag. They keep that to themselves!

    I’ve met a few who are Tories which is mental considering Celtics history. But look at arch Yoon Michael Kelly. Where does that come from. Catholic conservatism!

  146. Big Jock says:

    They won’t cancel the election. But all this anti immigrant stuff can’t be helping the situation. The Tories and Ukip have allowed bigots a voice.

  147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 23:18,

    Finally caught up with the early evening Misreporting Scotland later on. The report started with a murrdur, morphed to Nicola and the three dwarves (with the latters’ usual synchronised “divisive” pish) then a bare 20 seconds or so of the heavily-underplayed march, quickly followed by oodles of tennis and fitba or somesuch.

    The world turned upside down by BBC Scotland. They are so pathetic it hurts.

    But a superb day out. Showing the world, Rude Gal, Clueless Kez and Wee Big Hypocrite Willie that we are not shutting up, we are not backing down, we are not going away, until we achieve our human right to a referendum and allow the people to choose their future for themselves.

  148. K1 says:

    The PM is heading to Downing Street, so 3 separate incidents being reported, (1 on Lomdon bridge 1 very near the bridge and 1 in Vauxhall, absolutely no other information about the id’s of suspects nor motives as yet, ‘cept 3 males reported as suspects. There is more than one fatality.

  149. Cactus says:

    Signing in Sunday…

    Everybuddy good..

    What a day!

    Bbs.

    😉

  150. K1 says:

    Whitehall letting media know very pointedly that it is the police that are leading this, not the intelligence services.

  151. wee bud says:

    Big Jock.
    I didn’t mean to highlight that he was just a Celtic fan.. I was trying to highlight the msm and BBC coverage was working on people who don’t read sites like wings! I know most Celtic fans are very sensible even though they don’t follow the Paisley buddies ?.

  152. Meg merrilees says:

    O/T

    Just heard about a new Garden Tax on the late news on the BBC. My ears picked up because my sister had just told me she had heard about it on the news earlier tonight and thought it would have a severe effect on me because I have a big garden.

    Apparently Labour (Lib Dems and the SNP want to tax our gardens) and this will add a lot of money to our council tax bills – £3837 to be precise, a 224% increase. House prices would fall and we would have to sell off our gardens to pay for it.

    I did a search and unsurprisingly, up came a few matches a blog, a Conservative party link and an Express article. ( not going to link to them)

    Smelling a smell and searching further, I found an article in the ‘Independent’ a few years back about Land Value tax which will hit big landowners who don’t look after /develop their land and property .
    Then I found this on the labour party website – there is NO proposed garden tax it is false news put about by the Sun/Mail and Express.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/6egkpj/proposed_garden_tax/

    Seems it is now main news on the BBC.

    So who are the saboteurs?

    Looks like the dirty tricks are starting up as expected this weekend.

  153. Meg merrilees says:

    I am incredibly saddened to hear about this incident tonight.

    Have friends and relatives in the area who are safe but worry for those who are displaced and injured.

    I pray it will not have too many fatalities.

    Re the election:

    I doubt if at this point, the election will be cancelled but if there was any incident this thursday – God forbid – then the result would be most likely invalidated.

    Who knows, since we are effectively government-less they may yet cancel and declare an emergency national government.

    Presumably the troops will be back on the streets tomorrow and would stay there all summer.

  154. Returnofthemac says:

    Just heard about the incident in London, sounds awful. Makes the decision on renewing Trident all the more ridiculous. Just how will spending millions on Trident stop attacks in London,Manchester or anywhere else in Europe?
    Maybe the three angry men from last nights question time will have the answers.

  155. galamcennalath says:

    Scotland, unfortunately, has different voting systems for different elections. That confuses. We know a lot of people don’t understand STV, but I reckon many don’t get FPTP either.

    Most seats have an incumbent and a challenger, with all others well behind. The truth is, your vote will count for absolutely nothing unless you support the incumbent, or try to unseat them by voting for the challenger.

    Few seats are three or four way contests.

    In particular, Labour supporters must forget any new found Corbyn appeal, and in many constituencies consider whether they want a Tory government, or a strong SNP presence working for all Scots.

  156. Cactus says:

    What a day…

    Oh what a night.

    Now is Not the Time..

    Now is Not ra Tories…

    Hinging oot..

    Lick it up!

    Vote.

  157. Big Phil says:

    Did ye no sing the day @cactus??

  158. Cactus says:

    Aweright Big Phil ~

    Singing deep doon, but not honda stage ra day.

    In Glasgow’s Catty ra now!

    Lotsa crazy cool peeps..

    I fit right in.

    Cheers CC.

    😉

  159. Cactus says:

    Mobile reception in a Glasgow nightclub.

    That’s pure quality.

    We have 4 more pulsating days to make a difference ra people of Scotland.

    Yes We Can…

    Daisy, come back…

  160. Macart says:

    Cactus?!

    Yer pure awesome! 🙂

    Get yer vote out peepul.

  161. Cactus says:

    Aye, ahm hoofin’ it HOME..

    Taxis suck.

    Go walkabout..

    Cheers Macart.

    Presently daunderin’ thru ra Queens Park..

    The birds sound beautiful.

    X.

  162. Macart says:

    Just catching up on overnight news.

    Another appalling incident in London.

  163. Cactus says:

    Aweright Sam ~

    Almost HOME.

    Glasgow kicked ass today!

    Cheers all you cool people.

    You’re amazing.

    X.

  164. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    London loves
    The mystery of a speeding van
    London loves
    The misery of a muslim man

  165. Cactus says:

    HOME.

    Bad news down south again, damn it.

    What you got for us Nana…?

  166. Fred says:

    Some cracking pics of the demo by Billy Knox Photography on Facebook!

  167. Nana says:

    @Cactus

    Good morning, indeed bad news again from down South.

    If as is being suggested the election is postponed,the terrorists win.

    I have to ask “who are the real terrorists”

    Cancelling the Marr show today will allow the government to milk this attack for their own gain.

    Sorry for being blunt but it’s time someone was.

  168. John Edgar says:

    The real danger to the country over Brexit is May and her acolytes.
    In Hemsworth Constituency a group of real people chanted as she left her battle bus for another meet the people session: Make June the end of May!
    It cheers one up! Real wit and comment which hit the mark!!
    We have had MayHem, Maygeddon, MayTurn etc
    But, Make June the end of May is great!!
    Let us hope it leads to Mexit means Mexit!

  169. Nana says:

    While Dugdale and Davidson continue to attack our democracy we have a Nicola on our side, thank goodness.

    Nicola Sturgeon meets voters across Scotland
    First minister visits 7 places on Saturday to meet voters

    https://twitter.com/i/moments/871064610715185152

  170. scottieDog says:

    @Nana
    Totally agree. Where’s the government’s thatcher mojo regarding terrorism?

    Can’t help feeling there’s something even more sinister going on.
    I’ll get my coat.

  171. Sensibledave says:

    Nana

    I am not sorry for being blunt.

    Your comment is just about as bitter, twisted and selfish a comment as it is possible to write in response to ordinary folk from all around the world being murdered and injured as they went about their life.

    … and you seek to make it about how your democratic rights are being affected, including an assertion about cancelling the GE – for which you do not have one scrap of evidence and some issue to do with your much hated and unwatched BBC cancelling a programme!

    I despair.

  172. Bob p says:

    You’ve got a way with twisting words sd. A nasty piece of work you are. Away and slither back under your rock.

  173. Lenny Hartley says:

    Well said Nana, Risible gtf

  174. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sensibledave says: 4 June, 2017 at 9:02 am:

    “Your comment is just about as bitter, twisted and selfish a comment as it is possible to write in response to ordinary folk from all around the world being murdered and injured as they went about their life.”

    et tu, Britnat!

    PLONK!

  175. indyref2 says:

    England:

    “You reap what you sow”

    Scotland has to get out of this madhouse Union.

  176. Capella says:

    Total ignoral !
    Thx for links Nana. I just switched the radio off after the endless speculation so off to read the Nana supplement. So glad the Glasgow march was a success and hope there will be more pictures posted.

  177. Macart says:

    Great links as usual Nana.

    Long Sunday breakfast. 🙂

  178. defo says:

    Have you had enough of encouraging him now Robert ?

  179. Fireproofjim says:

    Another sad day in London.
    Just not a day for weird conspiracy theories. No one benefits from this, politically. The only planners and perpetrators were mad religious extremists.

  180. X_Sticks says:

    Great day out on the rally yesterday and so enjoyable catching up with the usual crew and as usual finding that I missed so many others that were there (Looking at you Mr Hartley :))

    I’m finding my credulity being stretched to its limit by the latest attack. Strong and stable government? It doesn’t look so strong and stable now. Isn’t it terribly convenient that this occurs just in time to cancel all political discourse 5 days out from an extremely important election when the tories are in total meltdown?

    The timing of the attack is so convenient to the bbc. They can now ‘legitimately’ cancel having to discuss the possibility of the tories not having a majority or even losing the election.

    I may have my tinfoil hat on here, but I really wouldn’t put ANYTHING past the british establishment when it is under threat. Collateral damage has never been an issue for them in the past.

  181. heedtracker says:

    Tory creeps have cut massive amounts of front line police sensibledave, its meant to be 20,000. That’s May’s own catastrophic austerity in action, despite terror and security cops pleading with the psycho tories like May not too.

    And yet here you are again toryboy, enraged sneering at anyone in Scotland daring to ask what’s really going on.

  182. cearc says:

    Nana and scottieDog,

    I agree, the BBC should not cancel programmes. After all they have a 24hr. rolling news channel. Thatcher would certainly not have approved.

  183. Sensibledave says:

    One question. Had the attack last night been in Glasgow or Edinburgh, would Nana’s comment been the same? I don’t bloody think so.

  184. Shinty says:

    Just watched the Glasgow AUOB March & Rally on YT. Well done everyone, what a fantastic turnout.

  185. Daisy Walker says:

    Cactus… was it me you were asking for?

    I’m always here, enjoying the comments and Nana’s links, but I only comment when I’ve something to say, and when the battery’s charged, which at the moment it isn’t.

    This GE has been grim and the events in Manchester and London, just awful. My heart goes out to those caught up in the damage.

    And the only answer for it all that I see, is one bit of decency at a time. Not some passive inaction, but a very deliberate straightening of the spine, chin up, conscious decision to be compassionate and decent and informed.

    For our pensioners, for our young, for our jobs, for our health, for our public services, for our security, for our soldiers, for our farmers, for our fishermen, for our businesses, for our communities, for our place in the world.

    Keep on keeping on folks, as best you can, we don’t grind down, we’re Scottish and no-one does thrawn like us.

    Yes we can, now we must.

  186. K1 says:

    Fuck off Dave. We’ve already had this conversation. Do you want me to post my last comment from that other thread, to you, on this thread?

    It’s simple, fuck off Dave.

  187. BJ says:

    Sensibledave @9:02

    “ordinary folk from all around the world being murdered and injured as they went about their life”

    Do mean like the ordinary men women and children who are having British made bombs dropping on them.

    Dave your sense of outrage is more than a little tinged with hypocrisy

  188. K1 says:

    ‘including an assertion about cancelling the GE – for which you do not have one scrap of evidence’

    Owen Jones, a Yorkshire man:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/871256193553006594

  189. orri says:

    Watching Peston.

    For a day where supposedly there’s been a suspension of campaigning this is allowing the Conservatives a free run at things.

    May’s going to shut down the internet and victimise muslims seems to be the jist.

  190. Bob p says:

    Sd 10.36am. You sound almost disappointed that it wasn’t in Glasgow or Edinburgh. Scumbag

  191. Nana says:

    Oopsy oh deary me, I seem to have caused someone’s sensibilities to be hurt. There must surely be a soothing cream available for all that twisting.

    Theresa May and the tories promising to protect the country, aye sure thing while they keep on selling arms to any mad dictator on the planet.

    @cearc

    Thatcher’s response
    Margaret Thatcher began the next session of the conference at 9:30 am the following morning, as scheduled. She dropped from her speech most of her planned attacks on the Labour Party and said the bombing was “an attempt to cripple Her Majesty’s democratically elected Government”:

  192. Lenny Hartley says:

    X sticks seen you at the Wings stall, was going to have a natter and got sidetracked , then the rain came on heavy so I took shelter with some Arran Folk, decided that if I moved sharpish I could get an earlier boat back home so legged it, my we collie dug wasn’t enjoying the noise.

    Cu at the next one.

  193. heedtracker says:

    The Ligger was just like Churchill lately, or at least all the tory press says he is, dont give in to poundland terrorists, keep buggering on etc. But his Sunday Politics show has been cancelled today. Good old toryboys like Brillo.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RcmVobP320

  194. Legerwood says:

    Nana @ 11.03 am

    You are correct, Tory Conference went ahead as Mrs Thatcher wanted and I believe Neil Kinnock supported her decision to go ahead.

  195. defo says:

    Nana
    It speaks volumes of the state we are in, when we hark back to Thatcher for an example of real states(wo)manship.
    I blame the 24 hr rolling news circus, and the way politico’s pander to it. Everything’s reactionary.

    ps SD is a worthless piece of shit, and the sooner some on here get that, the better.

  196. Robert Peffers says:

    @defo says: 4 June, 2017 at 9:56 am:

    “Have you had enough of encouraging him now Robert ?”

    Obviously you are unaware of what the expression Plonk!
    means defo.

    I’ll tell you this, though, I’m also heartily sick of so called independence supporters who seem never too tired of complaining about the SNP.

    I question their motives and their commitment to the cause of Scottish independence.

    Take that as you wish and just think that they also will be Plonked.

  197. defo says:

    I thought it meant the sound the loo made when you’ve eaten too many eggs, and are a bit bunged up !

    If the SNP are above criticism, I’m out.

  198. Jack Murphy says:

    Yesterday’s March and Rally for Independence.

    BBC Reporting Scotland TV teatime yesterday,beamed 22 seconds of reportage on that event into homes Scotland-wide.
    That’s yer lot Scotland—-sup up….
    BBC. “Best in the world”. That must be a joke!

    RT Television gave an altogether fuller report from a reporter who was actually there in front of camera!
    Two and a half minutes.
    RT:FILM.
    http://tinyurl.com/yaaa39to

  199. Cuilean says:

    Yer awfy clever, my bonnie laddie.

  200. dakk says:

    @Nana
    8.13’I have to ask “who are the real terrorists”’

    Spot on Nana.

    Theresa May was also spot on when she admitted’Terror breeds terror’.

    Unfortunately what British Nationalists don’t seem to get is that that means state terror too.

    Sadly for all the innocent people killed and to be killed I don’t think they ever will.They are hard wired to warmongering.

    Whilst I also acknowledge that Islamic terrorism may be morphing into something? else with attacks in Sweden and Germany,foreign policy is obviously a big factor.

    Otherwise why not Netherlands, Switzerland,Italy,Ireland or Greece.

  201. Daisy Walker says:

    Defo, is there an out?

    We can win or we could loose and we can (at the moment) choose the tactics we best think will win, but is there an out?

    If we stop campaigning and sit it out on the sidelines, will we stop caring about the result? Not for one single heartbeat. Being a Yesser, giving a damn, wanting the best, these things are fundamental to who we are, and hardwired into the DNA of our souls.

    I criticise the SNP, they are most definitely not above it, but I choose my moment and do not give my enemies ammunition.

    You are needed and valued, we all are.

    Best wishes

  202. harry mcaye says:

    My posts are taking an age to appear. Is anyone else experiencing this?

  203. Nana says:

    @defo late reply sorry computer updating.

    Never thought I’d see the day I linked to something about Thatcher.

    I’m just sickened by TM and her henchmen. Demonising anything or anyone in order for people not to question the real demons. Demonising benefit claimants, disabled people, immigrants, Jocks anyone at all takes the heat off their dismal record of government. A shower of criminals hell bent on destroying the many, in order for them to carry on filling their pockets at our expense. Aided and abetted by the worst journalism I have ever witnessed in all my adult life.

    Then that clown comes on here with his faux outrage and twisting of words to suit his own warped agenda.

    He said i had no evidence, I did.

    People are calling for the General Election to be suspended in wake of London attacks
    http://archive.is/0K5d2

  204. defo says:

    Daisy
    Thanks, but what I meant was that if we reach the point where the party in power are to be above criticism, then I wouldn’t think it a cause worth fighting for.
    I disagree with some of what the SNP have done/tried to do.
    e.g I despise the OO & pro IRA bigots, but stopping them singing ?
    A clear breach of our freedom of speech.
    I was totally against the attempt to remove corroboration from the criminal statute, and thankfully they backed off on this one.
    But i’ll vote SNP, this time, like every other, until we have the main prize.
    Best wishes to you too. Enjoy the sunshine, it’ll no last 🙂

  205. defo says:

    “People are calling for the General Election to be suspended in wake of London attacks”
    I think you’re smart enough to see how this game works nana, but…

    Voices call, the govt says no, but the concept is out in the public domain. It’s called softening up.

  206. ChewinTheFat says:

    O/T
    O.O. out just now playing their filth despite people being killed in last night’s terror attack. Deranged, sick and twisted individuals. Most disrespectful thing they could have done.

  207. Nana says:

    Amber Rudd shuts down my speech about arms sales to Saudi Arabia

    Mr ethical, Nicolas Wilson is standing against Rudd

    At a hustings in Rye on 3 June, where I am standing as an independent anti-corruption parliamentary candidate, a question was asked about law & order. Home Secretary Amber Rudd, in answering it referred to the Manchester terrorist attack. I took up the theme and referred to UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia & HSBC business there. She spoke to and handed a note to the chairman who removed the mic from me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEcMW6RmC_w&feature=youtu.be

  208. heedtracker says:

    BBC r4 vote tory lunchtime news, Dear Leader’s blaming the internet now. She wants to shut down “extremism” on the web, now interment possible, with Ian Duncan Smith, maybe not at present. Beeb gimp not asking IDS if tory austerity cuts like 20,000 less cops on the street has maybe an effect.

    Wait for that very loud hammering on the door, “extremist.”

  209. Nana says:

    She’s a liar liar

    MUST WATCH: Wow. You know the Police have had enough when they accuse Theresa May of outright lies. Cuts have made us all less safe.

    video here

    https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/871334312221736960

  210. defo says:

    Heeds
    They blow your door off its hinges now mate, for added spesh fx.
    Internment IS the next move, if they get their stronger, stabler mandate.

  211. K1 says:

    And by ‘anywhere else In the country’ he means England/Wales. At the end of that segment where the fella states that May and Rudd are lying. I really wish they would stop referring to the ‘country’ when it’s clear they are talking of England ostensibly.

  212. defo says:

    Nana
    Thanks for the link to Amber Rudd getting the chair to shut down Mr ethical, just as he pointed out the links between TM promoting BAE systems, HSBC, her husband and the Saudi’s.
    Now that’s what I call censorship.

  213. Meg merrilees says:

    Nana 1.18

    I wonder who this person is who has started the petition to cancel the GE. Is he a genuine punter or a Tory plant?

    There is no way the Tories will cancel this election – they would call it tomorrow if they could as they are terrified her lead will completely disappear by Thursday.

    So much for campaigning being suspended for today.
    As I type this, BBC Radio is blatantly broadcasting an item recorded when they followed a Tory candidate around Croydon, where, surprise, surprise , the tories seem to be eating into the labour majority.

    So wrong – it should not be broadcast!

    Emily Thornberry criticises T May for making a political speech in Downing Street after having requested an electioneering truce.

  214. Nana says:

    @Meg

    I agree, it was blatant politicking by TM. I have no idea who the fellow is who started the petition. Wouldn’t surprise me if he is a Tory plant. They seem to be growing at an alarming rate, the bbc has a hothouse full of them, lol

    Talking of hothouses my goodness it’s boiling here.

  215. heedtracker says:

    defo says:
    4 June, 2017 at 1:35 pm
    Heeds

    Aye. How we laugh at clown BoJO, then how they laugh when they march us all down to the local football stadium. This is a very critical period in UK constitutional stuff. Ask any refugee from Syria for example about how thin the veneer of peace and democracy actually is. And its always the right that shred away that veneer.

    Its not by chance that these attacks are being launched right in the middle of this snap GE campaign. The French suffered much the same in their presidential elections.

    http://www.politico.eu/article/terror-attack-paris-police-officer-dead-redefines-french-presidential-election-2017-in-final-dash/

    Mayhem’s crew called their snap GE, despite promising to not do many times, a few months back, and you can probably see where this one’s going.

    Why would this Dear Leader psycho tory mob even risk a GE now, knowing full well that it could and has attracted ISIS terrorists attacks, like last night and Manchester?

    Its not as if the tory freak show media are completely dead to the full on influence terror attacks are meant to have, during any election. Here’s the torygraph gimps in action,

    https://archive.is/8mqCu

    Telegraph News
    How Champs Elysees attack could swing the French presidential election

    By Henry Samuel, paris
    20 APRIL 2017 • 10:10PM
    Paris shooting: live updates
    While the motives of the Champs-Elysées gunman remained unconfirmed, the timing just three days before the first round of presidential elections and during a prime time TV “debate” between all 11 official candidates clearly raises the question that extremists are seeking to influence the tone of the debate.”

    If we ever have an actual democratic non tory BBC led freak show media, we might have psycho tories like May being asked,

    Dear Leader, “why have you held a snap GE, when it clearly makes the UK a target for ISIS, like what happened in France, a few weeks ago?

    If we had a non tory BBC led media…

  216. heedtracker says:

    Is it likely that Mr and Mrs Mayhem did consider how Teresa’s snap GE might make the UK a very possible ISIS target, just like the French were, whilst out for their pleasant and historic country walks, where the psycho decided to hold a snap GE, on the basis of making herself even more powerful?

    French prez elections were at least part of the French democratic process and timing, presidential elections were due, and they were hardly going to postpone them.

    Mayhem’s snap GE decision has clearly cost the lives of people in Manchester and now London. And all because a psycho tory decided she needed more of a majority in the Commons, despite art 50 going through on 400 MP votes.

    “Would calling a snap GE put us at risk from terror attacks trying to influence the outcome right now, like in they tried in France Mrs May?”

    “Lets wait and see Mr May.”

    In any other time, they’d be tarred and feather and run out of town, if they were lucky.

  217. heedtracker says:

    Mr and Mrs Mayhem are out for a walk in the country and the ex Home Secnow PM, decide to hold a pointless snap GE.

    Who has more info on ISIS terrorism in the UK but then decides to the hold a snap GE, effectively making the UK no.1 terror target?

    Is it really worth the risk of terror attacks like in France Mrs May?

    I do not know Mr May.

    Ah but you do Mrs May, you know more about ISIS terror threats than any one else in the UK.

    What a lovely walk this is Mr May isn’t it. Lets go on the ONE Show and show how UK ordinary and nice we are really. My landslide Tory victory assured.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/31/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know/

  218. orri says:

    Is it even possible to cancel or postpone an ongoing general election?

    Given that’s leave May in charge unopposed and able to reshuffle her cabinet then isn’t that simply a call for a dictatorship?

    My own selfish worry here is that this will reverse the drop in support for the Conservatives and ensure they have a majority.

    Given an extension of the unofficial dictatorship that is a Westminster Government during the period of an election an the chance of getting rid of them the choice is relatively simple in my mind.

  219. heedtracker says:

    Another psycho tory, with more untaxed mullah than all the angry old Trident loving white men in Yorkshire put together, in vote tory action, from his tax haven, in Belize.

    Lord Ashcroft?Verified account @LordAshcroft 4h

    Jeremy Corbyn needs to get to Raqqa, Syria with a bunch of flowers and a box of chocolates to discuss the situation…

  220. Meg merrilees says:

    And all this on the day when the body of the beautiful Eilidh MacLeod is flown home to Barra before her funeral tomorrow.

    How unbearably sad!

  221. Ann says:

    Last night shows that it’s not North Korea or any upstart nuclear wabypt to bes that western governments should be afraid if, but terrorists in their own back yards.

  222. Rock says:

    Nana,

    “I’m just sickened by TM and her henchmen.”

    Our Thepnr insists they are “fools” and “idiots”.

  223. Meg merrilees says:

    Let’s hope that the poll showing 1% between her and Corbyn is accurate.
    There are still 3 days to go and Corbyn can do it in England. It’s our only hope for the NHS and a whole host of other things.

    The Tories are revolting.

    We have to get the vote out. Tell everyone you know to urge all their friends to vote, especially youngsters.

    We can do this.

    Wonderful turn out for the Manchester concert tonight.

  224. Cactus says:

    Hey Daisy Walker ~

    Aye and hi, I was sending you a virtual wave earlier on this morning 🙂

    Good to hear from you, I like your posts.

    Yes we can, now we must!

    Exactly.

  225. heedtracker says:

    Rock says:
    4 June, 2017 at 7:45 pm
    Nana,

    “I’m just sickened by TM and her henchmen.”

    Our Thepnr insists they are “fools” and “idiots”.

    Its not a fact because it cant be proven, but if May had not called this pointless snap election, it would not have triggered these horrifying attacks, and all these people that have suffered awful deaths would still be alive today.

    There are all kinds of ways to try to understand why ISIS attack like this. During the French prez elections, UK media were all saying its an attempt to influence how France voted.

    Its clear that this is what is happening in the UK now. Not one UK news outfit, BBC ofcourse included, has put what happened in France to the test here. That’s probably not by chance either.

    In light of the French attacks, did the UK security services prepare and did no one say to May, look what’s happened in France in their elections, why are you placing the UK at such a threat, with a pointless GE, when we know what could and probably will happen?

    Just saw a photo of 14 year old Eilidh MacLeod’s coffin being piped along the beach on Barra.

    If there is a hell, its waiting for the tories like May.

  226. Breeks says:

    It’s an awkward point to make, but this recent spate of terrorist incidents could have a Brexit factor.

    Bearing in mind these Islamic extremists want a Jihad, that is an all out war where they can die as martyrs, (I know, that’s a distortion of true Islamic jihad). That is why they celebrate their sick executions. Their aim is to provoke ever greater war based on warped religious belief.

    Against that background, what does the Xenophobic anti-immigrant Brexit look like to a Muslim Extremists if not a country seriously rattled by the number of Muslims living here? Brexit has made Britain look like a rich environment for these Jihadists to exploit and exacerbate the tension between the bigoted likes of the EDL and Muslims who feel threatened and agitate for more anger, deeper mistrust, and intensify bestial hatred and prejudice.

    In France too, they seek too exacerbate existing tension between French Xenophobia and North African immigrants.

    If the Jihadists can so anger public opinion, and that EDL Tommy Robinson is the exact reaction the Jihadists want to provoke, then they succeed in bringing their all out battle to the death between their Radical Islam and all non Muslims.

    There is deliberate orchestration behind this terrorism, and in its aim to ramp up prejudices and fears, the Terrorists have allies in the Daily Express, Daily Mail, and all the hate stirring media; they are patsies, being used like an involuntary fifth column helping the Islamic Jihadist interests along.

    I genuinely despair at how poorly the United Kingdom is being led, it’s blood thirsty Arms selling, its political and indeed military interference, but worse, a much bigger threat to lasting peace and stability is the gutter Press and its continual indulgence for bass hatred and prejudice. It protects the monsters and warmongers, and demonises any and every abstract enemy, whether that’s Muslims, scroungers, the poor, the sick and needy, Europe, and of course, us Scottish Independentists.

    Britain does have a battle on its hands, but it has brought it upon itself. Britain’s real enemy is its media; from the rancid BBC to the sacked Katie Hopkins and every poisonous rag in between.

  227. sensibledave says:

    … after walking away from Wings on Sunday morning, I have read some of the more cent comments. The theme seems to be that we shouldn’t hold a General Election because it might give the opportunity to jihadists to make capital?

    There may be many valid arguments as to why a General ELection might not be called – but worrying what deluded, nut job extremists might think or do is not one of them.

    The conspiracy theorists here on Wings are getting louder and louder – and sounding sillier and sillier. They also appear to advocate concession and modification of our democratic process – in case we upset the loony jihadists! Once again, I despair.

    Whilst everyone else is trying defiantly keep calm and carry on and and not let the loonies win, some here on Wings appear to be hell bent on excusing the jihadists on the basis of our imperialist past or something.

    The jihadist, in simple terms, believes that the Quran and Allah wants him to kill all infidels – because they are infidels. He/she believes they should blow up children at a pop concert or run random folk down and stab them to death and their reward will be Virgins in Heaven.

    That credo is totally at odds and incompatible with anything we in the West can understand and, whilst we may well have done things in the past that were not for the greater good as it turned out, the loonies are loonies, and do not represent the majority views of Muslims in any region.

    There is no place on earth that is more cosmopolitan, open, accommodating and tolerant than London – nowhere! The guy that did the video of the guy at the underground station waving a knife around about 6 months ago summed it up concisely when he was heard to shout “you ain’t no Muslim, brov”.

    That is the problem we have. Extremist interpretations of the Quran. “The West” is not making those extreme interpretations – loonies are.

  228. K1 says:

    ‘That credo is totally at odds and incompatible with anything we in the West can understand.’

    If you refuse to read more widely and broaden you understanding of the complexity of the geopolitical landscape we inhabit then you desreve the ridicule and dismissal that you encounter on here and other forums that you write on Dave. We have seen your other witterings and the same tactics you utilise on other forums, wherein you write naive and uninformed nonsense and randomly accuse others of what you yourself indulge.

    There is a mirror reflection in your ideological stance and it is in the foreign policy output of your ‘least worst’ party of choice. You are a defender of the faith Dave, and fall in line with whatever rationalisations your chosen government chooses to pursue in masking its own complicity and hypocrisy in dealing with ‘terrorism’.

    Here is a more nuanced interpretation of these recent attacks, from someone who has a sight more intelligence and is far better qualified in understanding the bigger perspective, and I’m posting the entire article on here, so you cannot pretend you didn’t click the link, you cannot escape the weak and tasteless sauce of your own inherent prejudices that seeps through onto the screen in all that you type:

    ‘Why the London Terro Attack Happened Now

    One has to wonder why terrorists like those who struck on Saturday night in London, and earlier in Manchester, launched their attacks now. It is difficult not to infer that their violence was timed to influence the UK election this coming Thursday.

    Those behind the attack – whether those carrying it out or those dispatching the terrorists – want to have an effect. Terrorism is the use of indiscriminate violence for political ends. It has a logic, even if it is one we mostly do not care to understand. *

    So what do these terrorists hope to achieve?

    Based on prior experience, they will assume that by striking now they can increase fear and anger among the British population – intensifying anti-Muslim rhetoric, justifying harsher “security” responses from the British state and shifting political support towards the right. That is good for their cause because it radicalises other disillusioned Muslim youth. In short, it brings recruits.

    Islam is not exceptional in this regard. This is not a problem specifically of religion. As experts have repeatedly pointed out, disillusioned, frustrated, angry (and mainly male) youth adopt existing ideologies relevant to them and then search for the parts that can be twisted to justify their violence. The violent impulse exists and they seek an ideology to rationalise it.

    Once Christianity – the religion of turning the other cheek – was used to justify pogroms and inquisitions. In the US, white supremacists – in the Ku Klux Klan, for example – used the Bible to justify spreading terror among the black population of the Deep South. White supremacists continue sporadically to use terror in the US, most notably Timothy McVeigh, who was responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.

    Terrorists can exploit secular ideologies too, on either the far-right or far-left. Just think of the Baader Meinhof Gang or the Symbionese Liberation Army, back in the 1970s. The latter famously made a convert of Patty Hearst, granddaughter of publishing empire magnate William Randolph Hearst (aka Citizen Kane). After she was taken hostage, she quickly adopted the group’s thinking and its violence as her own.

    The Islamic terrorists of our time believe in a violent, zero-sum clash of civilisations. That should not be surprising, as their ideology mirrors the dominant ideology – neo-conservatism – of western foreign policy establishments. Both sides are locked in a terrifying dance of death. Both believe that two “civilisations” exist and are incompatible, that they are in a fight to the death, and that any measures are justified to achieve victory because the struggle is existential. We use drones and “humanitarian intervention” to destabilise their societies; they use cars, guns, knives and bombs to destabilise ours.

    The dance chiefly takes place because both sides continue it – and it will not be easy to break free of it. Our meddling in the Middle East dates back more than a century – especially since the region became a giant oil spigot for us. The tentacles of western interference did not begin in 2003, whatever we might choose to believe. Conversely, a globalised world inevitably entails one where a century-long colonial battlefield can easily come back to haunt us on our doorsteps.

    The solution, complex as it will need to be, certainly cannot include the use by us of similarly indiscriminate violence, more “intervention” in the Middle East, or more scapegoating of Muslims. It will require taking a step back and considering how and why we too are addicted to this dance of death.

    Jonathan Cook won the Martha Gellhorn Special Prize for Journalism. His latest books are “Israel and the Clash of Civilisations: Iraq, Iran and the Plan to Remake the Middle East” (Pluto Press) and “Disappearing Palestine: Israel’s Experiments in Human Despair” (Zed Books). His website is http://www.jkcook.net.’

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/06/05/why-the-london-terror-attack-happened-now/

    Takes two to tango Dave.

    *my bold/ italics throughout

  229. sensibledave says:

    K1

    You Quoted an “expert” … The Islamic terrorists of our time believe in a violent, zero-sum clash of civilisations. That should not be surprising, as their ideology mirrors the dominant ideology – neo-conservatism – of western foreign policy establishments. Both sides are locked in a terrifying dance of death. Both believe that two “civilisations” exist and are incompatible, that they are in a fight to the death, and that any measures are justified to achieve victory because the struggle is existential. We use drones and “humanitarian intervention” to destabilise their societies; they use cars, guns, knives and bombs to destabilise ours.”

    Whoever the expert is, he is wrong in some key areas. It is absolutely not the case that this country (queue Robert Peffers for a lecture on what a country is) does not seek battle in a “clash of civilisations”. We have millions of Muslims living in the UK and we get along just fine with each “side” being tolerant and nonthreatening about the other – as you well know.

    The only issues that we have is with a small section of some believers of an extreme interpretation of the Quran – again, as you well know. Those “issues” are brought about by there oft pronounced desire to see our destruction and for them to rid us of democracy by force and fear.

    So, damn your so called “experts” and maybe you need to spend some time in a city in England just to see how we all get along just fine without any issues. Yes there are loonies on the fringes of both sides – but they in no way represent the masses, or our governments, on existential issues.

    On the news over the weekend, were Muslim representatives agreeing with me – and not one agreeing with you K1.

    I know you need to keep portraying (whilst excusing Scotland from any involvement in) the UK as a force of evil – such is your hatred of the Union. That is your right and its is my right to call you out on your ridiculous assertions – regardless of whatever so called experts you can dig up.

    On every issue you seek to portray non SNP Scots as a lower species of some sort that is bereft of the compassion, empathy and caring of an SNP supporter. Shame on you K1 because you appear to be arguing, implicitly, that that represents the majority view of your own country (Scotland).

    I know you want Independence and there is nothing that I am doing to prevent it. However, is there any depths that you will not stoop too in order to to try and make your ridiculous points?

    k1, none of your bitter and twisted outpourings of how awful my country is compared to the la la land you imagine will exist –
    if only people agreed with your style of hating and vote for Independence. No one I know speaks of another country in the way that you do K1. You are positively and idiotically loathsome K1 and, for the sake of your country folk, no matter whether they are in an Independent Scotland or not, we must pray that you never get near the levers of power for you you are as awful as some of the loonies discussed above that are the cause of the problems we are facing today.

  230. K1 says:

    Oh my Dave. Touch a nerve, did it?

    Yeah way to go with the personal insults Dave. Mr sensible aka the nastiest little pip squeak going on about ‘my country’ aka England and accusing others of the exact hatefulness that he exudes in response to a well articulated experienced writer with vast experience and understanding on that with which he speaks reduced to an ‘expert’ like some dimwitted Mail/Express reading little Englander ‘leave voter’.

    You are a riot. Spluttering rage hateful rants…just the ticket old boy, keep it up for jolly olde England, oh btw the way have just seen the effigy of May giving the vicky hanging off the White Cliffs of Dover, that is just your level Dave, you must be so proud of ‘your’ country.

    The beam in the eye is strong with this one.

  231. K1 says:

    ‘The leat of the worse’

    Your description of the party that represents your views, outlook and ideology and that you have voted for your entire adult life.

    And you liken me to the guys who attacked people on the streets of London, this is who you vote for and for one time only I’ll agree with this one observation you made in your original rant from above, with two small amendments:

    ‘the loonies are loonies Tories, and do not represent the majority views of Muslims of any sane rational people who live in the UK, in any region.

    ‘Tories caught taking cash from the same regime that threatened the UK with ‘another 7/7’

    The relationship between Saudi Arabia and the Tories has come to the fore again in the wake of the London attacks. Members of the public have urged Tory ministers to rethink their cosy accord with the kingdom due to its reputation as a state sponsor of terror.

    But now, The Intercept reports that Tory politicians have received just shy of £100,000 in gifts, trips and fees from Saudi Arabia. The kingdom paid this cash to them as it was obliterating the Middle East’s poorest country, Yemen. And it did so while the UK government was approving arms sales to the country of around £3.5bn.

    In contrast, Labour has pledged to suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia until there has been an independent, UN-led investigation into its conduct in Yemen. And it will stop arms sales with countries where there is concern that the use of such arms will violate international humanitarian law.

    Saudi Arabia is also the regime that threatened the UK with “another 7/7” and the loss of “British lives on British streets” in 2006, according to court documents. Prince Bandar, the head of the Saudi national security council at the time, allegedly threatened to withhold intelligence if UK investigators didn’t drop a corruption investigation into the regime’s arms deals.

    Special interests

    The Intercept found the payments in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. It discovered £99,396 worth of payments to Tory MPs from Saudi Arabia since the country’s assault on Yemen began. These include a food basket gift from the Saudi Embassy to MP Charlotte Leslie, worth approximately £500. The Conservatives made Leslie the Vice President of their Middle East Council in October 2015.

    Gifts also include a £1,950 watch handed to Chancellor Philip Hammond. The Chancellor was Foreign Secretary when he received the expensive watch from the kingdom in 2015. This caused controversy, mainly because rules state that ministers cannot take gifts of that kind. But Hammond argued that the Saudis gave him the watch in his capacity as an MP, not as a minister.

    Sheikh Marei Mubarak Mahfouz bin Mahfouz handed the watch to Hammond after a Magna Carta ceremony in the latter’s Runnymede constituency. Saudi Arabia had already been bombing Yemen for months by the time Hammond accepted the watch at the human rights celebration in 2015.

    Getting to know you

    Much of the Saudi money splashed on the Tories, however, covered visits from MPs to the kingdom. The Intercept‘s Lee Fang wrote:

    The Saudi Arabian government has also picked up the tab for four expense-paid junkets taken by Tory lawmakers to visit the kingdom since the Yemen war began. The costs for accommodation, travel, and meals for the lawmakers range from £2,888… to £6,722… At least 18 conservative lawmakers have participated in the trips, according to the register of financial interests.
    Conservative MP Rehman Chishti also earned £2,000 a month as an adviser to the Saudi-based and state-backed King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies. Chishti has consistently peddled Saudi propaganda in the Commons, while on the payroll of the Kingdom. For example, the Shia cleric – Shaikh Ali Al-Nimr – was executed in January for peacefully demonstrating against the Saudi government. Yet Chishti claimed that the man was a terrorist with direct links to Lebanon’s Hezbollah. His only evidence was an article written by a convicted criminal with close ties to the Saudi government – Joseph Braude. And this article’s only evidence was ‘Saudi sources’.

    Blue bloody murder

    Meanwhile, the Tories are delaying the release of the findings of an inquiry into the foreign funding of extremists. The government said it would release the findings in 2016. But now, Theresa May’s government says it won’t make it public until after the election. And a Home Office spokesperson admitted that officials may never publish it due to its “very sensitive” contents.

    People suspect that the report focuses on Saudi Arabia. Mainly because the state ideology of the kingdom – Wahhabism – is the same one that inspires groups like Daesh (Isis/Isil). And the country has spent approximately $100bn spreading this ideology around the world. At the same time, members of the country’s elite have long supported extremist groups. As WikiLeaks revealed in one leaked cable, the US government privately admitted that “donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide”. WikiLeaks also published a cable that showed Hillary Clinton believed the Saudi government was giving “clandestine financial and logistic support” to Daesh and other extremist groups as early as 2014.

    Nonetheless, the UK government approves billions of pounds worth of arms deals with the country. And Tory MPs accept gifts from the country. Then, when terrorists attack our country, it screams blue murder about how Britain is “too tolerant of extremism”.

    That’s how the current UK government appears to ‘lead’ in these troubled times, by trapping us in a losing battle. It’s now high time that people in the country join together, and start voting for a different approach.’

    https://www.thecanary.co/2017/06/05/tories-caught-taking-cash-regime-threatened-uk-another-77/

    Takes two to tango Dave.

  232. Sensibledave says:

    K1

    Not once have I “dissed” your country (Scotland) whilst you do nothing but disrespect the majority of my country’s voters, my country’s politicians and my country’s past and current place in the world – and yes I am talking about my country England.

    Carry on spewing your bile and hatred K1, you are sounding more and more like someone in the despised EDL in your attitudes. With every comment you write you reveal more and more of your real you – and it really isn’t attractive.

    In my country, we are tolerant, open, welcoming and more cosmopolitan than most places on the planet – I will take no notice of anyone with such an obvious antipathy towards a whole country. There are words to describe people that have your warped views on others that are not Scottish.

    So, for once, I will respond in kind in a language you seem to favour – go f**k yourself K1!

  233. Liz g says:

    Well said K1….
    His country is shite,and beyond fixing.

    I hope we will be done with it soon.
    It’s that we will be building something better I think that draw’s the anger.

    I don’t need? la la land,just leader’s that are within slapping distance.
    So that if they ever behaved in the way Westminster does they can be fired.

    No kiddie fiddling would be a good place to start.
    Not facilitating cluster? bomb’s being dropped around other countries children would be another “protocol” Holyrood would have to comply with I should think.

    But the best bit will be having a Parliament we can have a bit of pride in,not that shit show we are currently involved with.

    I think that is the problem k1 how can anyone defend and take any pride in Westminster and be a serious never mind sensible human being?

  234. Returnofthemac says:

    O/T just dipped into QT why oh why did I bother? Mainly English accents in the Edinburgh audience virtually no SNP or indeed the wee party (labour) voters in the audience Nick (the liar) Robertson repeatedly interrupting the first minister. I wonder why she bothers at times. Would love it if she just said “fuck off” vote for your Tories and wait and see what happens. Although looking at this audience it doesn’t look as if it would make much difference to their lifestyles. No food banks for them. I despair of these people who are quite content in their lives, and don’t give a shit about others worse off, I wonder how many of them voted for Brexit? I am sure they are happy to pick up their free prescriptions, free tuition fees, and an excellent NHS. Wait,they look more like the private schools and private healthcare crowd.

  235. K1 says:

    ‘whilst you do nothing but disrespect the majority of my country’s voters,’

    Evidence?

    Yes that is what you are talking about Dave ‘your country. That’s English nationalism isn’t it Dave. (rhetorical)

    ‘Carry on spewing your bile and hatred K1,’

    Evidence?

    Did we just hit ‘paydirt’, Mr nasty on the back of no evidence whatsoever, reacts to the thoughts inside your own head?

    Think I’ve covered that in a previous post, so I’ll just repost what I explained to you…s l o w l y…Dave….see if you can take it in this time…shall we ‘old boy’?:

    ‘Closer to the reality of your exchanges with others on here is: you don’t actually ‘hear’ or comprehend where others are coming from. Your chosen form of response as you have just shown is to accuse others of ‘hate’ with no evidence, you have asserted this again as ‘hundreds’ and not one comment have you ever produced to validate this claim?

    You seek to ‘prove’ your theory of ‘hate’ by indulging in some of the most condescending patronising insulting guff thereby provoking a response to ‘your’ twisting of the meaning of posters comments who are articulating the reality of our political situation here in Scotland?’

    I’ve separated this into two paragraphs, instead of a direct copy and paste because it’s stunningly clear even to the casual observer, that your comprehension skills are terribly lacking ‘old boy’.

    Thanks for revealing your true colours Davey boy. Only took me about 2 and a bit years tae get you to admit what an uber ‘non civic’ nationalist you are, as you come on here going on about the ‘UK’ when what you have always been is English in outlook with little capacity to place yourself in others’ shoes.

    You can twist and turn and spout your lies about what you claim I’ve said as much as you want, but as everyone can read our exchanges for themselves, no amount of your lying nasty mouthed pish can be credibly backed up with a shred of evidence.

    When arguing with someone Dave, and losing, best not to resort to ‘playing the person’ as it merely confirms you have been unable to follow the nuanced aspect of the point/s raised. On now two occasions you and I have ‘fenced’ in the last couple of days and on both occasions you have moved swiftly away from the ‘norms’ of engagement, i.e. The substantive issues under discussion and moved swiftly into attacking your opponent, personally, whilst allowing your emotions to shape your responses.

    One day you may gain the requisite maturity to have a fully blown rational conversation around the issues being discussed on this forum and whilst you may come here to discuss politics, you actually have an agenda Dave, an emotional investment if you will and it is hidden from yourself and as clear as day to many on these threads.

    You’re bent out of shape on the number one Scottish independence website in the UK because it upsets ‘your’ English centred worldview. You dress it up in a UK garment but we have now seen you naked. I’ve no argument with that per se, where I take issue is with your projection onto those on this forum, that we come from that same core ‘nationalist’ outlook. We don’t. No amount of you attempting to make out that we are ‘anti English’ alters the truth of that statement Dave.

    And yet you return to that ‘theme’ over and over again, twisting and asserting the same tired interpretation over and over again. You are the one who uses terms like ‘average Jock’ and yet claims no anti Scots, nay you assert from one day to the next that you are uniquely prejudice free, it’s a verifiable lie Dave, and yet you bellow hollow self aggrandising lies like this consistently and constantly.

    Tories aren’t some sort of ‘species’ Dave, they are not uniquely English either. So good luck wi thinking your speaking for ‘the English Tories’. They are a political party, that we tend to avoid like the plague in Scotland. To take it so personally that we disagree with the ideologically driven austerity agenda as a model of governance in our country is to have completely lost all rational sense of persepective Dave. Political differences are a hallmark of a democracy, we all live together on these islands peacefully for the most part, but I would like to just gently remind you that it is your country whose hate crime has risen on the back of the EU vote.

    Not ours Dave. So go steady on the boasting there eh?

    You’ve the bee in yer bowler about being English, we have, as I’ve already stated, a half a million English residents in Scotland Dave as well as many other foreign nationals and we all get along fine. This doesn’t sit with your insistence that we are anti English, does it? Neither does it mean we are some paradise either, again it is you who makes these comparisons and assertions Dave.

    Now, go and have a good lie down, I’m tired just reading yer pish. You’ll never be taken seriously on here especially after that last one…pure riddy territory Dave. Job done, night night,

  236. K1 says:

    Aye Liz, agree.

    He makes the decision to vote in those psychopathic Tories, now the true colours…the pride is disgraceful, bit of reading out of his comfort zone wouldn’t go amiss but naw, decade after decade of voting for them and now that Scotland’s found its voice: how fucking dare we ‘object’. Fucking hysterical if it wasn’t for the untold damage they have enacted across communities in our polity and England’s. He forgets that not every English person living in England votes Tory.

    36.9% of the vote and he’s claiming ‘a majority of my country’s voters’, fucking idiot doesn’t even realise that’s the whole of the UK share of the Tory vote in GE15 but naw he’s ‘talking for England’. Arrogant and Ignorant in equal measure.

    Sooner we’re out of this Union the better.

  237. K1 says:

    *coughs*

    This is who you vote for Dave. ‘The least of the worst’ to use your exact term:

    ‘Ben Priestley explains how the crime stats are being fiddled. Police numbers are being cut + books are being cooked’

    https://mobile.twitter.com/EL4JC/status/871699549043265536/video/1

  238. K1 says:

    And as for ‘promoting’ ‘hate’ and thereby facilitating the ‘terrorists”agenda, who really gives them a media platform, who are the culprits seeking to sow division Dave?

    Who is pushing the anti Muslim divide in your country? Not a handful of ‘loonies’ but a network of news organisations happy to give voice and fame to those rejected by the Muslim communities, known and reported by those same communities to the police and we are hearing this over and over again, how some of these attackers ‘were known to the authorities’.

    The BBC, Sky, Fox promoted these narratives and the gullible fall for it. No doubt ably assisted and driven by Express/Mail headline grabbing anti Muslim agenda.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/mrjammyjamjar3/status/871829837262061568

  239. sensibledave says:

    K1

    Do you really want me to cut and paste all of the prejudice and stereotyping you use when discussing my country in just the last few threads (England or the English)? You do it so much, you think it is normal and acceptable.

    And, btw, what on earth are you doing hanging around on English (Yorkshire) political blog sites, disgraceful Troll!

  240. K1 says:

    I’m not you fool, but thanks for letting me know where you are hanging around. (I saw a comment you made on some article a few years back Dave, that’s where I was coming from)

    If I would be a ‘disgraceful Troll!’ for hanging around on ‘English (Yorkshire) political blog sites’, what the fuck does that make you hanging around on a Scottish poiiitcal blog site?

    You are twisting and re interpreting what I’m discussing with you Dave, now post the evidence of your accusations and not just another ‘assertion’, let’s see if you can do this and report honestly and in the context of what we’ve been discussing, think you could manage that Dave?

    So yes, I do, you are defining the ‘time frame’ of this hate and bile that I’ve apparently written, so should not be too difficult for you to prove this?

    If you are seriously going to go back to the one ‘England aka Westminster’ comment when I asked you to stop being a pendant and predicate your own entirerly insulting and accusative rants back at me on that basis, I think you will find that that is exactly the point that I’m making when it comes to your inability to comprehend what people are actually saying.

    But go ahead and prove your entire country has been impugned by me and others Dave, a patent nonsense on the back of such outlandish claims, you reduce yourself to an hysterical raging bull who actually went as far as to liken me to the attackers who killed people in London, that’s how far off the scale your reactions have been on the back of an article that you didn’t like, and apparently this is your ‘appropriate’ response?

    ‘for you you are as awful as some of the loonies discussed’

    It’s sneaky Dave, but it’s there, so you can’t deny it.

    It’s quite amazing how you cannot see your own hypocrisy in action, it’s okay for you to come on here to a Scottish political site but if I went on to ‘your’ ‘English’ site I would be a ‘disgraceful Troll’. As I’ve said repeatedly you’re the one with the ‘English’ obsession, attempting to make out we’re anti English but you have just shot yourself in the foot because there is no other way to interpret that comment as anti Scottish.

  241. K1 says:

    ‘as ^anything other, than anti Scottish’

  242. Sensibledave says:

    K1

    You wrote “As I’ve said repeatedly you’re the one with the ‘English’ obsession, attempting to make out we’re anti English but you have just shot yourself in the foot because there is no other way to interpret that comment as anti Scottish.

    You are confused again K 1. My recent comments are specifically aimed at you K1. You specifically are the contemptible one. Not …”we’re anti english” … you K1

    There are many passionate indie supporters on here k1, but you are part of a disfunctional subset that crosses the line into hate of those that are, or you perceive them to be, your political opponents.

    As for the troll stuff, you need to lighten up.

  243. K1 says:

    Dave, more assertions are not evidence.

    You’ve reached the end of your puff, it’s just your nasty accusations and blind hypocrisy left now.

    Let me help you out with that last lie you just stated:

    ‘You are confused again K 1. My recent comments are specifically aimed at you K1. You specifically are the contemptible one. Not …”we’re anti english” … you K1’

    With not one piece of evidence to support this lying claim.

    So how come this from your ‘recent comments’ on the 1st of June, Dave:

    ‘In exchange I will point you to a few hundred comments where WIngs commenters package up the “English”, The UKOK Bastard Tories, the rich southereners, the selfish southerners, the racist southerners, the anti-democratic southerners, etc, etc.’

    Even you can’t fail to see your own lie for what it is Dave. You wrote it.

    *whistles…whilst walking away from a complete zoomer*

    ———————————-

  244. sensibledave says:

    K1

    I note your rapid back peddling. I assume you have re-read some of your stuff and your only defense appears to be that it is not just you!

    You damn well know that I have never criticised or insulted the voters in Scotland. Whilst you, without knowing it seemingly, are happy to slag off 10s of millions of people because of the way they vote based upon their lives and experiences in their country (England).

    I bring up the subject of England because it is the country that I live in and who’s people, and their democratic decisions you are quite happy to lambast, ridicule and insult en masse.

    Because of your personal politics, you wrap up “tory voter” with a string of pejorative adjectives that you are quite happy to toss out at the drop of a hat in an unchallenged way.

    You refuse to comprehend that 55% of voters in England voted right of center. The only way you can rationalise that fact is by writing off the majority of voters in England as right wing racist, self centered, rich, tax avoiders! Even you must be able to work out that 55% must be a majority of ordinary folk , living ordinary lives and that are definitely not “the rich”.

    You refuse to accept the huge tax burden faced indirectly by lots of voters in the SOuth. Whether its because they are paying high rate tax on their higher salary – even though their monthly bills mean that they have to earn more because of their costs of living. As another example, you gloss over the amount of Stamp Duty that the average southerner will contribute to the UK coffers – not because they have more disposable income – but simply as an escalated tax because they have to pay more for their houses and pay higher mortgage costs as a result.

    As a result of some of these things K1, a normal family earning normal salaries will pay tens of thousands more in tax, one way or another, than their equally normal counterparts in some other parts of the UK.

    So, increasing their tax burden even further because of the naive assumption that they must be “rich” because they have a more valuable house and should therefore be taxed even more – is, perhaps, some of the reason for the discrepancies in voting patterns around the country.

    But you are too thick to get that eh K1. Much easier for your very small brain to not bother thinking these things through and just package it all up as “racist, selfish, rich bastards”.

    And, because you can’t, or refuse to think (much easier to do the jingoistic slagging off of the majority of voters in a country) you will never understand these things and you therefore make wrong assumptions about so many other things – of which there are so many, I really can’t be bothered to get into.

  245. K1 says:

    Dave it is you has gone on about ‘all these things’.

    Seriously point me to anything I’ve actually said that even remotely resembles everything you have just written?

    You’re literally twisting everything to suit your unfounded assertions of where ‘you think’, I’m comping from.

    It is you who said more or less, ‘I’m aiming all these accusations at you K1′ and no one else’, all I did was dispute that and provided the evidence of you stating categorically that you perceive this ‘attack’ from many on Wings. But now you accuse me of ‘back pedalling’, on what Dave?

    This is what you wrote in context Dave:

    sensibledave says:
    1 June, 2017 at 4:03 pm
    K1

    You wrote “Why are you focusing so pointedly on Scotland Dave?”

    err, because we were discussing the differences between Scotland and “down south” on WIngs K1

    On the subject of honesty K1, point me to any comment by me in any thread where you believe I have said something “anti-Scots”.

    (I responded in my reply that you had referred to the ‘average Jock’ and this is a denigrating terms used by English people referring to the Scots Dave? But you chose to ignore that)

    In exchange I will point you to a few hundred comments where WIngs commenters package up the “English”, The UKOK Bastard Tories, the rich southereners, the selfish southerners, the racist southerners, the anti-democratic southerners, etc, etc.

    (This is the part of this post that I quoted to your previous to last post (above) in response to your attack of me personally and me alone as being ‘contemptible’, which contradicts this earlier statement where you say you can point me to ‘few hundred comments’ where you state in essence that people comment in the manner you describe, describing your polity in the manner that you now alone accuse me of)

    As another example, there is no shame amongst Wingers packaging up the Leave voters again into “typical racists, little englander Tories” … despite the fact that most of the Tory Heartland shires voted Remain (including me). Often by a larger percentage than Scotland! It doesnt quite fit with the lazy stereotyping does it K1.

    (This places even more emphasis on the point you are making regarding ‘many’ on Wings, not just me Dave? Wingers is plural, correct?)

    This complete lack of knowledge and understanding manifests itself in the sort of stuff typically trotted out by the likes of you and Heedy.

    Of course I do have “complaints” about the UK government of whatever shade (unlike the amusing party line adherence of references to “Nicola” as most do here – you would think I had gone bonkers if I referred to “David”, “Gordon”, “Tony” or “Theresa”).

    I am not “a Tory” I happen to vote Tory most of the time – because they are the least worst.

    I don’t hate anyone, but that cannot be said of an awful lot of Wingers. The hate and venom is palpable sometimes K1.

    (This is the sentence that pushes home the point that you are making, with not a shred of evidence to support your assertions that ‘an awful lot of Wingers’ are expressing ‘hate and venom’ and that this ‘is palpable sometimes’)

    ———————————————————-

    I didn’t back-peddle on anything Dave, you’re a total zoomer, you Dave, it’s not ‘because’ you’re English, you muppet, it’s because you’re a total twat that lies and accuses others of that which you yourself indulge in on a regular basis.

    Oh btw if yer so bothered about your houses prices and stamp duty go take it up wi yer Tory MP, stop coming on to the number one Scottish independence website complaining about how hard ye’ve got it down south, ya fanny.

  246. sensibledave says:

    K1

    You wrote “Oh btw if yer so bothered about your houses prices and stamp duty go take it up wi yer Tory MP, stop coming on to the number one Scottish independence website complaining about how hard ye’ve got it down south, ya fanny.”

    Haha K1. Oooops! You missed the whole point again K1! People down south do take it up with their MPs so to speak … they vote for parties that are not so stupid that they they think everyone in south is a rich bastard that should be fleeced!

    We are not complaining… we dont have a loonie government that is heel bent on portraying us as the “problem”.

    We would have a problem if governements were formed by the likes of the Labour Party and the SNP – who demonstrate they have a complete lack of understanding of these things to you K1

    Politics is about lots of things including … fairness. So much of loonie left policy is based upon the simple and naive assumption that if someone earns more than someone else then they are wealthier.

    If you like, I could do some worked examples for you based upon the “wealth” of say, a cooper living in the south east of England and a similar copper living in Scotland. Do you need me to do that k1?

  247. K1 says:

    So ‘policy differences’ are ‘your’ issue?

    On the back of that you attack, smear, slur, accuse me and wingers of being ‘anti English’. Then deny you included others in this attack and further produce no evidence of said ‘anti English’ comments from me or anyone else on Wings, whilst having stated that you could point to ‘a few hundred comments’ that prove the ‘hate and venom’ is ‘palpable’.

    Then having pointed all this out to you, you then accuse me of ‘back’ peddling, I again produce the actual evidence supporting the fact that you are lying when you pointedly denigrate me by saying that it’s ‘only’ me that you are describing as ‘contemptible’.

    Now you return to the bee in your bowler about ‘differences in policies’ between differing political parties and differences in our different countries choices in this regard, as somehow relevant to what Dave? You have recoiled from addressing anything other than a paragraph at the end of my last comment, this is fairly standard fare from you.

    Here…chew on this, this is how you address what someone has actually written, point by point. Here’s my full response to your entire post before last, on this thread. Now, care to provide any proof of any of your assertions and can you deny how utterly bereft of civility ‘you’ have been throughout our lengthy ‘conversation’ over these last few days.

    ——————————————————————–

    ‘You damn well know that I have never criticised or insulted the voters in Scotland. Whilst you, without knowing it seemingly, are happy to slag off 10s of millions of people because of the way they vote based upon their lives and experiences in their country (England)

    You have, I provided the example you asked for, you did not and have not provided 1 of the ‘few hundred’ you claim that described your polity in the manner you described. Further, show me where I have specifically been ‘happy to slag off 10s of millions of people because of the way they vote..’?

    I bring up the subject of England because it is the country that I live in and who’s people, and their democratic decisions you are quite happy to lambast, ridicule and insult en masse.

    Again show me where I have been ‘quite happy to lambast, ridicule and insult en masse’?

    Because of your personal politics, you wrap up “tory voter” with a string of pejorative adjectives that you are quite happy to toss out at the drop of a hat in an unchallenged way.

    Do I? Show me the ‘string of pejorative adjectives’ that I’m apparently ‘quite happy to toss out at the drop of a hat in an unchallenged way’?

    You refuse to comprehend that 55% of voters in England voted right of center. The only way you can rationalise that fact is by writing off the majority of voters in England as right wing racist, self centered, rich, tax avoiders! Even you must be able to work out that 55% must be a majority of ordinary folk , living ordinary lives and that are definitely not “the rich”.

    Show me how you have arrived at this assertion and where I ‘refuse to comprehend that 55% of voters in England voted right of centre’? Where have I rationalised ‘writing off the majority of voters in England as right wing racists, self centred, rich, tax avoiders!’?

    You refuse to accept the huge tax burden faced indirectly by lots of voters in the SOuth. Whether its because they are paying high rate tax on their higher salary – even though their monthly bills mean that they have to earn more because of their costs of living. As another example, you gloss over the amount of Stamp Duty that the average southerner will contribute to the UK coffers – not because they have more disposable income – but simply as an escalated tax because they have to pay more for their houses and pay higher mortgage costs as a result.

    Where have I refused ‘to accept the huge tax burden faced indirectly by lots of voters….blah blah blah’? Where did I ‘gloss over’ the amount of stamp duty? How does this ‘escalated tax’ for your part of the UK get worked out Dave? Who sets the tax bands? Do you choose to live there? Are you happy living there? Choice Dave, your choice.

    As a result of some of these things K1, a normal family earning normal salaries will pay tens of thousands more in tax, one way or another, than their equally normal counterparts in some other parts of the UK.

    I note you have in fact ‘back peddled’ here Dave, you originally used your ‘average Jock in ‘Edinburgh’, therefore you took on board my point and knew full well you used a derogatory term and specifically focused on Scotland in your original rant about this terribly ‘unfair’ situation between Scotland and England.

    Closer to the truth, which you are now acknowledging in this updated moan about how much tax\stamp duty you have to pay, is that yes, as I pointed out to you, these stamp duty bands differ depending on the price of your property and therefore your ‘average Jock in Edinburgh’ wasn’t a fair comparison as those bands are applied across all of England/Wales too.

    I also pointed to the difference in threshold in Scotland in that we don’t have to pay stamp duty on properties under 145k whereas down south (when we use that term in Scotland, it generally applies to all of England Dave, as oppose to your interpretation as somehow just the part where you live, it’s not remotely derogatory, I believe the term ‘up north’ is generally used down south to describe going to Scotland? My brother lives in Kent Dave, for the past nearly 30 years now, this is how I hear him describe travelling back and forth beteen the countries) the threshold is 125k before paying stamp duty. Now the point about that, is simple isn’t it?

    It comes down to governmet policy, does it not? If you don’t like your state of affairs down where you are then it’s up to you to lobby for change where you are, isn’t it? This difference on this single ‘tax’ shows this starkly, it’s down to government policy Dave. It does beg the question, why are you moaning about this on this Scottish independence website?

    That’s all I meant when I asked why you were ‘focusing so pointedly on Scotland’ Dave, as this was the very issue that you used to make the case of how unfair it was that someone in Edinburgh without the anti Scot sneer, was paying less stamp duty over their lifetime than those who live where you are? Remember?

    The truth is your complaint on this one issue has as much or more relevance in your own country, it’s a real question of difference between our two countries on this tax. Why are those who are perhaps on ‘normal’ salaries with lower priced houses in England/Wales not getting the same break as we do in Scotland with regard to their stamp duty taxes, why do they not get that greater threshold that we enjoy in Scotland before paying stamp duty? Just an irrelevant point in terms of your issues Dave, but I don’t see you being concerned about your fellow country folk on this issue. Your concern seems to be about how unfair those living in your part of England have it.

    Nothing to do with Scotland at all. You choose the government you have Dave. You have every right to do so, I’ve already outlined how it is for us in Scotland, we tend not to vote Tory Dave, cause we don’t agree with their outlook and so when me or perhaps others speak of the Tories it’s very much about our experience of having ‘those bastards’ in charge having suffered under their 3 terms from ’79 onwards. You want to take that personally, that’s up to you, but you cannot preach to others on a Scottish website which as I’ve already stated is peopled by a centre left polity who naturally can’t stand Tories. And expect to be taken seriously complaining about how hard you have it under the very same Tory government that you freely admit to voting for, for decades.

    It’s absurd what you are doing here. In that context Dave.

    So, increasing their tax burden even further because of the naive assumption that they must be “rich” because they have a more valuable house and should therefore be taxed even more – is, perhaps, some of the reason for the discrepancies in voting patterns around the country

    Now, this is a ‘political’ point you are making here. You don’t have to be concerned about what the Scottish government does in this regard, do you? It doesn’t affect your ‘tax burden’ does it? You vote for the Tories, do they think people in your part of the UK with the expensive properties ‘should therefore be taxed even more’? If they don’t, what’s your point? Do people who earn high wages have to pay more income tax than those who earn less Dave, do the Tories intend altering that anytime soon?

    Again what is the relevance on this forum except to ‘attack’ those on here who particliarly disagree with Tory polices across the board Dave? Those who will never agree with your frame of reference when discussing these matters? Which seems to give you a reason to smear, insult, condescend and patronise by turn anytime you are challenged on here regarding ‘your’ attitudes on many issues, this is what you resort to:

    But you are too thick to get that eh K1. Much easier for your very small brain to not bother thinking these things through and just package it all up as “racist, selfish, rich bastards”.

    Nasty, uncalled for slurs. Calling someone a muppet or a twat/twit, even wanker doesn’t compare to the level and degradation of debate you stoop to Dave, because you have nothing else left but to insult, denigrate and accuse with evidence free impunity someone who has had the good grace to still be relating with you even though our political differences are perhaps insurmountable. But you can’t stop it can you?

    Your veneer of ‘civility’ crumbles when forced to consider as you have, without giving credit, on the false comparison regarding stamp duty across the whole of the UK, where you used the term ‘average Jock iin Edinburgh’ which you have now ‘dropped’, again without the faintest whiff of an apology for the pejorative use of that term. Instead still clinging to the lie that you have ‘never’ been anti Scottish, which has now morphed into ‘I have never criticised or insulted the voters in Scotland’ And yet look at who has indulged in some of the worst kind of smearing over this past day or so Dave, in this conversation?

    Whilst claiming that I’m anti English, and no better than the ‘loonies’ who attacked and killed 8 people in London, that I alone am contemptible on Wings, that I am ‘too thick’, have a ‘very small brain’ and on and on it has gone.

    It is you who has diminished this exchange Dave, the false accusations, the evidence free assertions have just spewed out of you, the nasty nasty tone has all come from you Dave. You alone Dave, And I provided the evidence of this, it’s all over this thread and two threads back where we begun our exchange on the 1st of June Dave. It’s a veritable litany from a man incapable of understanding what is being said to him, twisting and contorting everything being stated.

    And so you end where you begun:

    And, because you can’t, or refuse to think (much easier to do the jingoistic slagging off of the majority of voters in a country) you will never understand these things and you therefore make wrong assumptions about so many other things – of which there are so many, I really can’t be bothered to get into.

    Once again, where is your evidence that I ‘can’t or refuse to think (much easier to do the jingoistic slagging off of the majority of voters in a country)? What ‘wrong assumptions’ have I made Dave? For someone who ‘really can’t be bothered to get into’ ‘so many other things – of which there are many’, you’ve managed again to comprehensively fail to say anything except a re hash of the false claims ‘about what you think’ I’ve said and once again indulged in outright verbal abuse and smearing with no other purpose other than to denigrate the ‘person’ you ‘imagine’ me to be.

    But what you’re really exposing is your own limited capacity to engage as a human being Dave. It’s nasty Dave. You can’t escape the reality of your input on our exchanges.

    You lost Dave. You couldn’t have the argument, you couldn’t concede any points, you resorted to personal smearing and infantile slurs. You are not a mature man. And as for the political aspects, your own selfishness stains the page, you who, living in the most wealthy part of the UK complaining about how unfair it is that you are taxed highly, never once considering the plight of over 2 million children living in poverty in the 5th richest nation state on the planet.

    You are singularly incapable of nuance, and failed on the most basic level to mask your own prejudices on this forum, you referred to the ‘average Jock’ Dave whilst shouting loudly that ‘there’s no flies on me’.

    You’re an English nationalist of the blood and soil variety, you Dave, not some majority that ‘you’ think you’re speaking ‘for’ or that I’m speaking ‘about’. That I may, as we all do from time to time, in shorthand refer to ‘England’ as interchangeable with ‘Westminster’ is not some indicator of ‘anti Englishness’, neither does it imply bigotry.

    You can insinuate that meaning all you want Dave, rather than just ask what the person means, you scream ‘anti English!’. You seek it out and will literally ‘make it up’ Dave, so you can spew out your own bigoted views of those on here that you perceive as ‘guilty as charged of this ‘anti English’ crime. A circular self fulfilling logic pervades your entire position on this matter.

    BTW, where are those hundreds of comments with the palpable hate and venom, Dave?

    Yer in a helluva way Dave. I couldn’t imagine what it’s like to have a mind such as yours, the only bile that has been spewed is yours. That’s a fact Dave. Not a made up smear. You’re mean spirited and if I may say, quite average really and very typical of your background.

    ——————————————————————

    Now away and watch the results coming in for ‘your’ ‘country’ today Dave. Go argue with the hundreds of thousands who are turning out to vote for what you hate Dave. Ask yourself why all those voters don’t support what you do Dave? Is it cause they are ‘anti English’?

  248. sensibledave says:

    K1

    You wrote “Oh btw if yer so bothered about your houses prices and stamp duty go take it up wi yer Tory MP, stop coming on to the number one Scottish independence website complaining about how hard ye’ve got it down south, ya fanny.”

    Haha K1. You are such an oaf! You missed the whole point again K1! That’s exactly what does happenPeople down south do take it up with their MPs so to speak … they vote for parties that are not so stupid that they they think everyone in south is a rich bastard that should be fleeced!

    We are not complaining… we currently don’t have a loonie government that is hell bent on portraying us as the “problem”.

    We would have a problem if governments were formed by the likes of the Labour Party and the SNP – who demonstrate they have a complete lack of understanding of these things – as you do K1. That is what we are trying to avoid. We need to stop the numpties

    Politics is about lots of things including … fairness. So much of loonie left policy is based upon the simple and naive assumption that if someone earns more than someone else then they are wealthier.

    If you like, I could do some worked examples for you based upon the “wealth” of say, a cooper living in the south east of England and a similar copper living in Scotland. Do you need me to do that k1 – or have you got it yet?

  249. K1 says:

    So ‘policy differences’ are ‘your’ issue?

    On the back of that you attack, smear, slur, accuse me and wingers of being ‘anti English’. Then deny you included others in this attack and further produce no evidence of said ‘anti English’ comments from me or anyone else on Wings, whilst having stated that you could point to ‘a few hundred comments’ that prove the ‘hate and venom’ is ‘palpable’.

    Then having pointed all this out to you, you then accuse me of ‘back’ peddling, I again produce the actual evidence supporting the fact that you are lying when you pointedly denigrate me by saying that it’s ‘only’ me that you are describing as ‘contemptible’.

    Now you return to the bee in your bowler about ‘differences in policies’ between differing political parties and differences in our different countries choices in this regard, as somehow relevant to what Dave? You have recoiled from addressing anything other than a paragraph at the end of my last comment, this is fairly standard fare from you.

    Here…chew on this, this is how you address what someone has actually written, point by point. Here’s my full response to your entire post before last, on this thread. Now, care to provide any proof of any of your assertions and can you deny how utterly bereft of civility ‘you’ have been throughout our lengthy ‘conversation’ over these last few days.

    ——————————————————————–

    ‘You damn well know that I have never criticised or insulted the voters in Scotland. Whilst you, without knowing it seemingly, are happy to slag off 10s of millions of people because of the way they vote based upon their lives and experiences in their country (England)

    You have, I provided the example you asked for, you did not and have not provided 1 of the ‘few hundred’ you claim that described your polity in the manner you described. Further, show me where I have specifically been ‘happy to slag off 10s of millions of people because of the way they vote..’?

    I bring up the subject of England because it is the country that I live in and who’s people, and their democratic decisions you are quite happy to lambast, ridicule and insult en masse.

    Again show me where I have been ‘quite happy to lambast, ridicule and insult en masse’?

    Because of your personal politics, you wrap up “tory voter” with a string of pejorative adjectives that you are quite happy to toss out at the drop of a hat in an unchallenged way.

    Do I? Show me the ‘string of pejorative adjectives’ that I’m apparently ‘quite happy to toss out at the drop of a hat in an unchallenged way’?

    You refuse to comprehend that 55% of voters in England voted right of center. The only way you can rationalise that fact is by writing off the majority of voters in England as right wing racist, self centered, rich, tax avoiders! Even you must be able to work out that 55% must be a majority of ordinary folk , living ordinary lives and that are definitely not “the rich”.

    Show me how you have arrived at this assertion and where I ‘refuse to comprehend that 55% of voters in England voted right of centre’? Where have I rationalised ‘writing off the majority of voters in England as right wing racists, self centred, rich, tax avoiders!’?

    You refuse to accept the huge tax burden faced indirectly by lots of voters in the SOuth. Whether its because they are paying high rate tax on their higher salary – even though their monthly bills mean that they have to earn more because of their costs of living. As another example, you gloss over the amount of Stamp Duty that the average southerner will contribute to the UK coffers – not because they have more disposable income – but simply as an escalated tax because they have to pay more for their houses and pay higher mortgage costs as a result.

    Where have I refused ‘to accept the huge tax burden faced indirectly by lots of voters….blah blah blah’? Where did I ‘gloss over’ the amount of stamp duty? How does this ‘escalated tax’ for your part of the UK get worked out Dave? Who sets the tax bands? Do you choose to live there? Are you happy living there? Choice Dave, your choice.

    As a result of some of these things K1, a normal family earning normal salaries will pay tens of thousands more in tax, one way or another, than their equally normal counterparts in some other parts of the UK.

    I note you have in fact ‘back peddled’ here Dave, you originally used your ‘average Jock in ‘Edinburgh’, therefore you took on board my point and knew full well you used a derogatory term and specifically focused on Scotland in your original rant about this terribly ‘unfair’ situation between Scotland and England.

    Closer to the truth, which you are now acknowledging in this updated moan about how much tax\stamp duty you have to pay, is that yes, as I pointed out to you, these stamp duty bands differ depending on the price of your property and therefore your ‘average Jock in Edinburgh’ wasn’t a fair comparison as those bands are applied across all of England/Wales too.

    I also pointed to the difference in threshold in Scotland in that we don’t have to pay stamp duty on properties under 145k whereas down south (when we use that term in Scotland, it generally applies to all of England Dave, as oppose to your interpretation as somehow just the part where you live, it’s not remotely derogatory, I believe the term ‘up north’ is generally used down south to describe going to Scotland? My brother lives in Kent Dave, for the past nearly 30 years now, this is how I hear him describe travelling back and forth beteen the countries) the threshold is 125k before paying stamp duty. Now the point about that, is simple isn’t it?

    It comes down to governmet policy, does it not? If you don’t like your state of affairs down where you are then it’s up to you to lobby for change where you are, isn’t it? This difference on this single ‘tax’ shows this starkly, it’s down to government policy Dave. It does beg the question, why are you moaning about this on this Scottish independence website?

    That’s all I meant when I asked why you were ‘focusing so pointedly on Scotland’ Dave, as this was the very issue that you used to make the case of how unfair it was that someone in Edinburgh without the anti Scot sneer, was paying less stamp duty over their lifetime than those who live where you are? Remember?

    The truth is your complaint on this one issue has as much or more relevance in your own country, it’s a real question of difference between our two countries on this tax. Why are those who are perhaps on ‘normal’ salaries with lower priced houses in England/Wales not getting the same break as we do in Scotland with regard to their stamp duty taxes, why do they not get that greater threshold that we enjoy in Scotland before paying stamp duty? Just an irrelevant point in terms of your issues Dave, but I don’t see you being concerned about your fellow country folk on this issue. Your concern seems to be about how unfair those living in your part of England have it.

    Nothing to do with Scotland at all. You choose the government you have Dave. You have every right to do so, I’ve already outlined how it is for us in Scotland, we tend not to vote Tory Dave, cause we don’t agree with their outlook and so when me or perhaps others speak of the Tories it’s very much about our experience of having ‘those bastards’ in charge having suffered under their 3 terms from ’79 onwards. You want to take that personally, that’s up to you, but you cannot preach to others on a Scottish website which as I’ve already stated is peopled by a centre left polity who naturally can’t stand Tories. And expect to be taken seriously complaining about how hard you have it under the very same Tory government that you freely admit to voting for, for decades.

    It’s absurd what you are doing here. In that context Dave.

    So, increasing their tax burden even further because of the naive assumption that they must be “rich” because they have a more valuable house and should therefore be taxed even more – is, perhaps, some of the reason for the discrepancies in voting patterns around the country

    Now, this is a ‘political’ point you are making here. You don’t have to be concerned about what the Scottish government does in this regard, do you? It doesn’t affect your ‘tax burden’ does it? You vote for the Tories, do they think people in your part of the UK with the expensive properties ‘should therefore be taxed even more’? If they don’t, what’s your point? Do people who earn high wages have to pay more income tax than those who earn less Dave, do the Tories intend altering that anytime soon?

    Again what is the relevance on this forum except to ‘attack’ those on here who particliarly disagree with Tory polices across the board Dave? Those who will never agree with your frame of reference when discussing these matters? Which seems to give you a reason to smear, insult, condescend and patronise by turn anytime you are challenged on here regarding ‘your’ attitudes on many issues, this is what you resort to:

    But you are too thick to get that eh K1. Much easier for your very small brain to not bother thinking these things through and just package it all up as “racist, selfish, rich bastards”.

    Nasty, uncalled for slurs. Calling someone a muppet or a twat/twit, even wanker doesn’t compare to the level and degradation of debate you stoop to Dave, because you have nothing else left but to insult, denigrate and accuse with evidence free impunity someone who has had the good grace to still be relating with you even though our political differences are perhaps insurmountable. But you can’t stop it can you?

    Your veneer of ‘civility’ crumbles when forced to consider as you have, without giving credit, on the false comparison regarding stamp duty across the whole of the UK, where you used the term ‘average Jock iin Edinburgh’ which you have now ‘dropped’, again without the faintest whiff of an apology for the pejorative use of that term. Instead still clinging to the lie that you have ‘never’ been anti Scottish, which has now morphed into ‘I have never criticised or insulted the voters in Scotland’ And yet look at who has indulged in some of the worst kind of smearing over this past day or so Dave, in this conversation?

    Whilst claiming that I’m anti English, and no better than the ‘loonies’ who attacked and killed 8 people in London, that I alone am contemptible on Wings, that I am ‘too thick’, have a ‘very small brain’ and on and on it has gone.

    It is you who has diminished this exchange Dave, the false accusations, the evidence free assertions have just spewed out of you, the nasty nasty tone has all come from you Dave. You alone Dave, And I provided the evidence of this, it’s all over this thread and two threads back where we begun our exchange on the 1st of June Dave. It’s a veritable litany from a man incapable of understanding what is being said to him, twisting and contorting everything being stated.

    And so you end where you begun:

    And, because you can’t, or refuse to think (much easier to do the jingoistic slagging off of the majority of voters in a country) you will never understand these things and you therefore make wrong assumptions about so many other things – of which there are so many, I really can’t be bothered to get into.

    Once again, where is your evidence that I ‘can’t or refuse to think (much easier to do the jingoistic slagging off of the majority of voters in a country)? What ‘wrong assumptions’ have I made Dave? For someone who ‘really can’t be bothered to get into’ ‘so many other things – of which there are many’, you’ve managed again to comprehensively fail to say anything except a re hash of the false claims ‘about what you think’ I’ve said and once again indulged in outright verbal abuse and smearing with no other purpose other than to denigrate the ‘person’ you ‘imagine’ me to be.

    But what you’re really exposing is your own limited capacity to engage as a human being Dave. It’s nasty Dave. You can’t escape the reality of your input on our exchanges.

    You lost Dave. You couldn’t have the argument, you couldn’t concede any points, you resorted to personal smearing and infantile slurs. You are not a mature man. And as for the political aspects, your own selfishness stains the page, you who, living in the most wealthy part of the UK complaining about how unfair it is that you are taxed highly, never once considering the plight of over 2 million children living in poverty in the 5th richest nation state on the planet.

    You are singularly incapable of nuance, and failed on the most basic level to mask your own prejudices on this forum, you referred to the ‘average Jock’ Dave whilst shouting loudly that ‘there’s no flies on me’.

    You’re an English nationalist of the blood and soil variety, you Dave, not some majority that ‘you’ think you’re speaking ‘for’ or that I’m speaking ‘about’. That I may, as we all do from time to time, in shorthand refer to ‘England’ as interchangeable with ‘Westminster’ is not some indicator of ‘anti Englishness’, neither does it imply bigotry.

    You can insinuate that meaning all you want Dave, rather than just ask what the person means, you scream ‘anti English!’. You seek it out and will literally ‘make it up’ Dave, so you can spew out your own bigoted views of those on here that you perceive as ‘guilty as charged of this ‘anti English’ crime. A circular self fulfilling logic pervades your entire position on this matter.

    BTW, where are those hundreds of comments with the palpable hate and venom, Dave?

    Yer in a helluva way Dave. I couldn’t imagine what it’s like to have a mind such as yours, the only bile that has been spewed is yours. That’s a fact Dave. Not a made up smear. You’re mean spirited and if I may say, quite average really and very typical of your background.

    ——————————————————————

    Now away and watch the results coming in for ‘your’ ‘country’ today Dave. Go argue with the hundreds of thousands who are turning out to vote for what you hate Dave. Ask yourself why all those voters don’t support what you do Dave? Is it cause they are ‘anti English’?

  250. Song42 says:

    Wow! Took me some time to catchup on this thread. A lot of branches on this Tree!

  251. Song42 says:

    Thanks for all the links Nana:-)



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