The inconvenient truths
Today’s media is dominated by reports on the release by the US government of a deeply horrifying dossier admitting and detailing the massive scale of torture carried out by the CIA on often-innocent detainees during the USA’s “war on terror”.
You can’t chuck a brick at the internet without hitting a hundred links on the subject, so we’re not going to pick any out in particular, but many reflect on the UK’s willing complicity in many of the abuses, with the Labour government of Tony Blair having allowed Prestwick Airport to be used as a stop-off for torture flights.
There’s also a rather telling article in the Scotsman.
The piece reports on the possible SNP candidacy at the 2015 election of outspoken blogger and former British ambassador Craig Murray. Our alert readers will probably have already noticed the noteworthy aspect of the story from the picture above, but it’s handily repeated in the main text.
2004, of course, was right in the middle of Labour’s 13-year period of government. And why was a Labour UK government angrily sacking its ambassadors? Because they were being TOO CRITICAL of human rights abuses (a thing we weren’t aware there was a limit on), at the same time the UK government was bending over backwards to help the Americans barbarically torture innocent civilians, sometimes to death.
To be honest, we don’t think we’ve got much to add to that.
Best of luck to Craig!
A Politician with a conscience and guts…more please!
I sincerely hope Craig gets elected so that he can be a thorn in the side of Westminster. We need people like him with a conscience and a voice.
Not just Prestwick, the rendition flights also used Wick and (i think) Inverness, from my recollection for refuelling
Labour showed their NeoCon credentials from the outset. Let’s hope some of our Media will grill Jim Murphy on this appalling episow during Labour’s time in government. Will any of them go rooting around in Murphy’s laundry?
Any chance of a proper enquiry into the UK ‘s role in ‘extraordinary rendition’ I wonder? I doubt it, and even if there were, Murphy et al would deny everything and wash their hands.
If there’s an aspect to being America’s lapdog, more shameful than simply being it: it will be the inability to retrospectively analyse our actions, and learn from that.
Interestingly this story of Human Rights abuse by the U.S.A. gladly assisted by Blair and his government comes AFTER Save the Children give the warmonger himself some award for his greatness around the world! Hmm … 😉
Labour has blood on its hands and it will never wash off.
Rendition was part of the torture. Sitting on the floor, strapped in together, sometimes with family, hooded, an indeterminate destination and hours of noisy flight, often during the night.
Did they get breaks for toilet and refreshments?
I’ve said before that I worry that Craig Murray is a loose cannon who would struggle to work in a team with the SNP group. Also that his past leaves him wide open to damaging smears. It doesn’t really matter whether that stuff it true or not, it was used to smear him before, very effectively, and it can be trotted out to do the same job again. So the idea of him as a candidate isn’t one I particularly welcome.
Nevertheless his record on speaking out against human rights abuses is admirable, and in the present political climate his involvement is an interesting addition to the mix.
maybe someday the middle east peace envoy will face trial for war crimes, but I doubt it!
maybe someday the middle east peace envoy will face trial for war crimes, but I doubt it!
The truth will out. Eventually.
Had to stop following Craig Murray on twitter when, obviously angry about what was happening in Gaza, as we all are, he wrote in his blog that he really hoped that the first 30 Israel soldiers entering Gaza at that time were killed.
Smearing Craig Murrray for highlighting human rights abuses will work well in left leaning Scotland! Though I’m sure Labour will continue to try, especially as they are implicated.
It will be interesting to see how they try to do it. In his book, Murder in Samerkand, he lays out everything about himself, good and bad, so hard to find something to use against him.
Ironic Labour demand Nicola Sturgeon stop him standing on the day the Senate report on rendition comes out.
Saddam Hussein wants to kill Tony Blair so he cooks up a proposition that Britain has WMD (ridiculous I know).
He then destroys military and civilian targets in Britain resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent British people.
Depleted uranium is used and many horrendous birth defects occur with the probablity of many more in the coming years.
After Britain has been destroyed, he sends in companies owned by his pals to rebuild the country, thus ensuring massive profits.
To top it off he takes control off North Sea assets and repatriates the profits.
Iraqi mercenary forces patrol the streets of Britain killing any resistance put up by insurgents.
Any insurgent deemed to be acting against the Iraqi nation is detained in a foreign country and tortured whether guilty or not.
Eventually, Tony Blair is rounded up and executed.
The rest is history.
the rotten corrupt london media will trot out the same smears as before and probably new ones but i welcome a man like craig murray representing the snp and therefore me. no lying down to the corrupt media.
He’s also on YouTube declaring that anyone who voted No is morally repugnant or something like that. It’s a bloody field day for the anti-SNP press, and I don’t look forward to it.
He’s more fiskable than the two characters Stu took to the cleaners the other day, and the evidence is all there. If he was standing for a unionist party, I’d fully expect to see a WoS article filleting him. Unfortunately.
That last post of mine was a follow-up to what Annie said.
Following Iraq, and his other ventures Mr Blair undertook a period of atonement, so I suppose that wipes his slate clean – in the view of whoever holds the atonement duster.
Craig Murray would be excellent in Westminster, he says it as it is and is very dedicated to Indy according to his articles.
I wish him every success.
He highlighted many human right abuses and still rails against it.
I hope we get him in there.
I went to a forum I used to frequent to see what they were saying about the torture revelations. I found a thread started by an English chap I used to be on good terms with until he turned into a sneering belittling Britnat during the referendum campaign. That behaviour on the part of a number of forum regulars is partly what drove me away from the place.
Anyway, his thread was rightly condemnatory of the US behaviour, and then someone (again rightly) brought up the subject of Blair’s complicity. The English poster agreed entirely and posted a very bitter rant about how far up the USA’s arse the UK government is and was located.
I’m afraid I then broke cover and pointed out the irony of that position, given that Scotland’s attempt to cut ourselves free of all that had met with ridicule and opposition from him. Sometimes, people are just annoying.
Morag
Loose cannon…. the idea of him as a candidate isn’t one I particularly welcome.
Youre entitled to your opinion but I think I would rather have someone who has voiced his own opinion like Craig rather than someone like Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh who seems to have been happy to voice any opinion that would help secure a nomination for any of the parties that shes been a member of so far.
I recall a few weeks ago you saying you were willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, loose cannon Craig should be given the same.
Giving up a great career to blow the whistle on this stuff,sounds like just the kind of guy that Westminster needs but doesn’t want. Good luck to him on election night.
Considering the US has, since the 20th century, engaged in rescuing Nazi criminals from justice, assassinations, counter-insurgency, destabalising economies, terrorist activity, funding dictators, and removing democratically elected socialist governments, learning they do torture too seems a bit of an anti-climax. Then again, some will be surprise dear old Blighty joined in the patriotic fun. If so, they are naive in the extreme.
The shame is, No voters seemed not to take into account that ‘our lot,’ Labour, allowed Prestwick used as a stop-over for rendition and transport to torture camps.
Thanks for that ‘mirror-view’ of what happened, Seasick Dave. It is chilling to think of what our side, the supposed ‘good guys’, really did.
Annie,
I don’t think I exactly said that. I do indeed believe the Palestinians have a right to resist when the Israelis invade killing hundreds of women and children. I do not apologise for that view. I do not approve of Palestinian attacks on civilians, rockets, bombs etc. But I do think you have a right to shoot at soldiers and tanks who are shooting at you.
Seasick Dave
Your reverse analogy falls down on at least one highly salient point, the UK does have WMD.
Desmond, the thing is that Tasmina doesn’t have a past that can be used to create lurid newspaper stories, beyond having once stood as a Tory candidate and (I believe) also having been a member of Labour at one time. That’s it. And it’s well-known. And she’s been an SNP candidate before, and not been a PR disaster.
Craig Murray is on YouTube declaring that everyone who voted No is morally bankrupt, or something like that, and Annie has just mentioned a blog post of his expressing the hope that 30 Israeli soldiers should die. (There’s more in that blog that makes me pretty uncomfortable too.) This is the sort of thing that generates seriously embarrassing Daily Mail stories.
Then there’s all the old history. It doesn’t matter what he said about the smears in a book, the usual suspects will just dredge it all back up again and get it back into print as “allegations” and so on, with the lawyers checking that the wording isn’t actually actionable.
It worries me, it really does.
And now another wrinkle. Someone in Labour has called on Nicola to distance herself from Craig Murray and reject him as an SNP candidate. My first reaction to that was, well if Labour don’t want him as a candidate, maybe that’s exactly what he should be. But then I remembered all the problems again, and wondered if it was all some sneaky double-bluff to bounce Nicols into adopting someone so eminently smearable as a candidate.
Don’t know what’s going to happen, really.
Who said that Prestwick was fog-free?
And can Craig cope with Absurdistan?
Good to see Craig Murray being vindicated by the release of information by the U.S.
I would love to see him using parliamentary privilege to name Jack Straw and Tony Blair as allegedly being involved in rendition and torture.
Hopefully, he will get selected from one of the seats that are nominating him and then go on and win it. I think he will be an asset to the SNP in Westminster.
So what if he is a bit of liability at times. The whole point is that we do not want Scottish MPs to be there for much longer – one parliament or two maximum.
The more disruption the SNP cause there, the better, and Craig could certainly create some big waves.
How many children were totured?
Without ethics, free will and human liberty are not sustainable!
nobody should be surprised at British complicity in the torture and killing of foreigners, after they were doing it long before the Americans and yes that included some proud Scots who were only to glad to lend a hand, but that’s what becomes of Empire building!
The best thing about getting Craig into parliament will be that he will be able to say things under parliamentary privilege. I expect there are a whole slew of things he would like to say but dare not in public or print. For this reason alone we must get him into parliament.
Jack McConnel turned a blind eye.
link to news.bbc.co.uk
@SeasickDave
You forgot to mention that Saddam Hussein went on to be a peace envoy, solved the Scots Nationist problem, saved the UK and then went on to win the Nobel Peace prize.
True story – heard it on The BBC.
🙂
Inconsistent views? Oh the irony.
Please don’t reduce this topic to a provincial personality attack: why individuals should conform ‘for the sake of the party.’ Discuss why the UK is happy to support USA torture camps, and why practitioners get off Scot free.
Rigid conformity lies behind the excuse given by Bush and his pals – ‘torturers and those who gave the orders are patriotic.’
Morag,
To secure employment in the diplomatic services Craig Murray would have needed to display the necessary diplomatic attributes and skills, and with age comes maturity so I doubt that he has lost such skills. However he also does appear to have an active conscience and that brought about his downfall from Her Majesty’s Diplomatic Service. Her Majesty being of course Queen Elizabeth and he, Craig Murray was uncomfortable carrying out the duties expected of him by her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth and spoke out. My kind of guy.
The Queen’s view of him we will never know, presumably she endorsed his dismissal?
I was once told by our company chairman to tell a client a pack of lies. I protested. “It’s only words” was the response.
I prefer persons who speak out against injustice. even if sometimes they are lacking in diplomatic niceties.
Did they get breaks for toilet and refreshments?
@ Eric. The prisoners were put into nappies for the flight. There was, therefore, no need for toilet breaks. This also started the process of breaking the person. There was no need for refreshments. Depriving prisoners of food and water was one of the techniques used at the torture centres. This has two goals – it damages the person physically and, by underlining how helpless the prisoner is, it damages them psychologically.
Reading excerpts of the Torture Report reminded me of sections from The Gulag Archipelago. I don’t recall reading that the NKVD in the 1930s and 1940s used hoods. I think that this technique was introduced by MI5/6(?) in Northern Ireland in the early 70s.
@Morag
Christ almighty, just shut up, will you, with your constant put-downs of Craig Murray. We’ve all read what you’ve got to say about him ad infinitum ad nauseam. Either make a case for your assertions or give it a rest. It’s already bloody well boring us all to death. Gie’s peace.
You treat this blog like it’s all about you. Well here’s the thing – it’s not.
Fair point. The topic is bigger and more serious than one potential parliamentary candidate.
link to en.wikipedia.org
link to en.wikipedia.org
link to en.wikipedia.org
link to en.wikipedia.org
I cannot believe I have ever tweeted anything about wanting thirty Israelis dead. Where? We hardly need the Labour Party if Morag and Annie carry on like this.
Morag says:
10 December, 2014 at 4:33 pm
Have you ever met him? Have you actually spoken to him?
I think he is a first class candidate and I remain baffled by your constant attacks.
He has demonstrated remarkable courage by giving up a promising career to protect the rights of others.
Jack Straw should be your target.
[…] The inconvenient truths […]
Craig Murray surely displays what we want to see in Scottish politicians; honesty and integrity. Unionist MPs in general are fighting for good jobs, not a just cause. His views on no-voters have credence; those I know voted depending on which football team they support, or, even more alarmingly, what their tabloid front page told them.
@StevieMcB
“It follows a report by the SNP which it believes details US intelligence flights through Scottish airports.”
Good article – the SNP were complaining about US rendition filghts long before Craig joined them.
Who would have thunk it?
He will just never fit in with the SNP – will he ?
Morag: Fair point.
Thank you. 🙂
@Morag
I met Craig during the referendum campaign when he came to Dundee. He was on a punishing speaking tour for Yes at the time despite being pretty ill.
He is one of us and a good guy. I’m with others, give it a rest.
Dal Riata, I’ve explained exactly what my reservations about Mr. Murray are. I think if you read what I posted, it’s all there (or most of it anyway). You’re free to disagree of course. I’m not insisting that there’s no merit in the opposing point of view, merely pointing out that this is a potential candidacy that is not exactly an unalloyed joy from the SNP point of view.
And you know, Grouse Beater was right, this thread is about more important things.
Muscleguy, I’m not demanding that you stop supporting Craig Murray if that’s what you want to do. I don’t think it’s reasonable to demand that no criticism of him should be posted. There are two sides to this, not one.
The idea that he is or might be a liability is valid only if you assume that the media will try and smear him. Firstly they have done it already, so what you see is what you get. Secondly if mi5 had anything better they would have used it. Thirdly do you think they wont twist,smear and plain lie about any new SNP MPs if they can? We have to get in their faces up close and personal, Mr brand is very good at it, interview the interviewer make them justify the position they are taking, show them up for the shoddy apparatchiks that they are. No quarter should be given anymore. We should stop playing by their rules.
Ericmac
I have heard 2nd hand admittedly that they were chained whilst inside the Aircraft and were going by the smell not allowed toilet breaks.
@ Craig Murray – you didn’t tweet it, you tweeted link to blog which I read, have family in Israel so maybe a bit sensitive. Perhaps you edited blog, not trying to stir things up we all say things in heat of moment.
Something about this Morag person that both (a) bores me and (b) does not quite ring true – to me anyway. Craig Murray I endorse wholeheartedly.
Craig on ET now!
sorry RT
Most self appointed god like political figures get rid of those who speak out and challenge their opinion/rule. Strange how they are all very unsavory characters: Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mugabe, Saddam Hussein..
Blair wouldn’t look out of place on that list..would he?
It must be remembered that Craig Murray has effectively been able to act as a free agent since leaving the diplomatic service and no doubt one who relished that freedom.
But is it really possible to believe that someone could rise to high office in the diplomatic service, of all things, without also having a facility for discretion?
I don’t think we can compare someone’s views from a period with no collective responsibility, to those espoused when working under such constraints. Nor do I think we can presume that should he volunteer to once put himself in a position where collective responsibility comes into play once more, that he would be incapable of working within such a framework.
Of course, he must reserve the right to whistle blow should some heinous injustice manifest itself, but I think, and hope the rest of you do too, that such a manifestation by a Scottish Government would be a highly unlikely occurrence.
But if it ever were to, I for one would welcome the presence of Craig Murray or someone like him.
Let’s not turn this into another ‘he said / she said’ thread. The last time that happened it began to resemble a primary school playground.
Frankly I’m past caring what the Daily Mail readership thinks. They are unsaveable. Agree that Craig needs to be more conciliatory to the middle ground of soft Noes though. Calling all Noes thick and evil won’t win any converts. A lot of vulnerable people with little access to the internet were terrorised. Forgive them.
Murray v Murph on arms control and rendition would be a very interesting.
The Brits wrote the book on torture they would let the Americans piss in public if it pleased them, as for Prestwick they have sullied our shores with their evil and they must be brought to justice.
i to wish graig murray well, for sticking his neck out and speaking out against torture and injustice.
torture is done to silence and control it’s victim’s.
speaking up for the voiceless is always the right thing to do.
from whence come’s recovery.
Craig Murray like everyone is imperfect however he has stood up against the state pretty much on his own and at serious risk to his own life. The UK state has little they can do that they they would not already have done. Like Salmond and Sturgeon he cannot put a foot wrong though from now on, so needs to be temporate, 100% factually accurate and very careful what he puts in his blog.
Unfortunately he cannot attempt suing Jack Straw as he is above the law in his actions as a uk minister unlike actions as a member of the public.
There is precedent for this in the people of Diego Garcia V UK Gov. Even though the UK lost its case in court the UK just bounced it to the Lords to use an order in court to get it overturned. The exact same thing would happen here imo.
The UK Gov brushed under the carpet the ethnic cleansing of its owns citizen which is at least as serious or more so than these torture confirmations. In fact is is all linked as the people were removed to make way for a US air base that has participate din the extraordinary rendition of many torture victims.
It is all one sorry, ‘repugnant’ and nefarious mess. I am fully agreed with Craig that the UK State is a source of evil in the world today and is essentially a rogues state and indeed fits the definition very well:
“being ruled by authoritarian regimes that severely restrict human rights, sponsor terrorism, and seek to proliferate weapons of mass destruction”. They should have that on signs in all entry points into Scotland to highlight what UK membership means!
Has Craig Murray been selected? He might be a loose canon but his other attributes might make up for it.Let the MSM smear away.If it’s not him it will most certainly be some other SNP candidate.Mr Murray is fit to deal with it.
I would welcome Craig Murray as a MSP or MP.
He is, for me, pretty much the polar opposite of the machine politicians who have destroyed public trust in the UK political system.
Good luck Craig.
Does anyone know why the US Government has released these reports about its complicity in torture when surely they could have found reasons to keep them secret ?
Does anyone have a link to this tweet about the Israeli invasion? Since it’s generally considered fair game to fire on invading soldiers, I would have thought that merely wishing for the soldiers to die should be rather uncontroversial. It would be helpful to see exactly how this was worded.
@Ephemeral Deception
Well the Smith Commission oh so generously recommended that full control over road signs should be devolved. So we could do so. Also doesn’t the Scottish State now own Prestwick? Surely a small display in the departure lounge would not be amiss.
Has Craig Murray been selected?
Nope.
@Morag
I note you ignored my point about Craig being one of us. If post the referendum we are going to descend to internecine sniping, what was it all for? I thought we wanted a different sort of politics?
Strong stuff there Stu
Good luck to Craig too. fantastic news.
I was pretty much down after the ref result but since then more and more folk are joining the cause. Everyday since has just got better. Especially watching the Labour vote fall apart. Had hoped To see others like Rob Mcalpine and lesley Riddoch under the SNP banner. Who know, every days a good day. Tommy Sheridan would be a nice one. We need loud voices.
The more we find out about this Union the worse it seems .
Anyone for independence ? 🙂
back craig murray and dont give in to london media lies.
@Morag
“… merely pointing out that this is a potential candidacy that is not exactly an unalloyed joy from the SNP point of view.”
Says who? Oh, that’s right, you do. How do you know that [it] “is not exactly an unalloyed joy from the SNP point of view”? Do you have the First Minister’s ear? Are you a sitting SNP MSP, perhaps?… No? So what gives you the right to be judge, jury and executioner on whether Craig Murray should be accepted as a candidate or not?
Upthread you say Murray is “eminently smearable”. Funny that, because you are the one who does all the ’eminent smearing’ of him on this blog.
We get that you have some as-yet-fully-unexplained bee in you bonnet about Craig Murray; you’ve told us enough times to the extent that I, and others, feel forced to respond by asking, nay, telling you to give it a rest.
Your constant attacks on Craig Murray don’t do you, this site, or the many who believe we need people like Murray fighting our corner, any favours.
Why don’t you start up your own blog online? There, *you* get to set the rules and control the moderation. Also, you can rant away about Murray, or anyone else, at your leisure. But on *this* blog your obvious vendetta/agenda against Murray is tedious in the extreme.
@donnywho
” interview the interviewer make them justify the position they are taking, show them up for the shoddy apparatchiks that they are. No quarter should be given anymore. We should stop playing by their rules.”
Totally agree, I’m getting quite sick of commentators on here telling us we always have to be polite and just take the crap they keep throwing at us. We tried that during the referendum and we lost.
Sometimes that also means telling it like it is to people who voted NO.
At the moment the establishment isn’t frightened of us, they’re laughing at us. We have to change that.
Am currently in Karakalpakstan and there were two topics of conversation at dinner last night: Craig Murray and Scottish independence.
I was disappointed because they did not appear to have the opportunity to read Craig’s book, and they were disappointed because I’d promised to wear my kilt this time but only if Yes won…
Westminster needs a bloody shake up and Craig Murray MP might be one of those capable of doing that.
@ Dal Riata
I agree,
Perhaps Craig Murray knows more about the Lockerbie Bombing and the trial of the “Bomber” than “Morag” does?
Just saying.
@Dal Riata
In fairness, it isn’t your blog to vet either.
I’m glad Craig Murray is standing but there can surely be little doubt that our enemies will have a field day on him. I hope he stands his ground and doesn’t feel the need to apologise for anything he has said, as I’m sure he won’t.
Will there be any SNP candidate that the UKaynats won’t attempt to smear and vilify?
Morag, if the unionist press manage to paint someone who gives away part of his salary to charity as a sybaritic trougher who tried to steal a pair of breeks, I’m sure Craig will be an easy target.
So what? Who cares what Daily Mail readers think?
Rev has often pointed out that well under 1% of WOS readers ever comment.
If I’m being moved to write this then there must be many other regular commenters (let alone readers, some of whom are ‘new’) who feel likewise.
I’m utterly sick of Morag smearing Craig Murray. The last time I crossed swords with her on this she accused me of being ‘thought-police’ and trying to shut her up.
The issue here is a simple one – Morag has NOT explained what her beef with Murray is, despite him asking her personally on more than one occasion. And Morag’s evasiveness is just making things worse.
The innocent reader dropping by here could be forgiven for thinking that Craig Murray has some unspeakable secrets which Morag dare not detail. Further, she implies that the SNP is twitchy about his possible candidacy, and does so in terms which suggest she has some authority in the matter.
My own opinion of Craig Murray is completely irrelevant, as is my opinion of Morag, but my opinion on this constant smearing and innuendo is one which I suspect many share: it has become highly personal, it is out of order, and it has to stop.
Scott Finlayson, the report was released by the Senate Intelligence Committee, chaired by Diane Feinstein, a Democrat on the left of the party. Had it been up to Congress and the Executive Branch as a whole, I think we would have seen a watered-down collection of waffle. The Separation of Powers doctrine has its uses!
When I saw that Sen. Feinstein was the one who released the report, I was sceptical. However, my scepticism disappeared when I saw that Sen. McCain had welcomed it. That man knows a thing or two about torture.
@Morag
Once again we get the vague “It’s there to see”, “I posted it in the past”
You have never posted a single shred of evidence to support your rants in my view. It is you who has detracted from the main article once again.
I’ve met him, I’ve spoken to him and I have read his blog and I still remain baffled by your comments.
Yesterdays controversy can often turn into tomorrows accepted wisdom. .Read Mandela
Ian Brotherhood
😉
Many of Craig Murray’s fans have come out and declared that they’d be very pleased to see him as an MP. I haven’t for a second denied their right to hold and express that view.
And yet once again my articulation of an opposing position is met with personal abuse and demands that I be silenced. It’s not pretty, guys. Just because someone is on our side doesn’t automatically make him a plaster saint, or set him above criticism.
Clootie, I have explained my reasons for being concerned about the prospect of Mr. Murray as an SNP candidate right here in this thread. If you believe that his other sterling qualities counterbalance this then that’s a reasonable position to take, but please stop this claim that I haven’t explained my position.
I don’t know Mr Craig Murray at all, nor do i know the intimate details of his life or for that matter his secret personal feelings on anything, but what i do know is i tend towards trusting the people i elected to run my country inasmuch as if Mr Murray is asked to stand and has agreed the party’s position on policy, if they’re happy then i’m happy and no amount of twisted behaviour from the odd individual will amount to anything other than trolling for it’s own sake and signifies nothing other than a miserable human beings attempt at attention seeking…I am Alex Salmond…
Rats in a sack.
Keep going, guys.
You know what? Why don’t we park this until Craig Muray has actually passed the vetting process to become an approved SNP candidate?
I am not given to believing everything I read in the Scotsman, but the article did say that Mr Murray is going through the vetting process at the moment. This is an internal party matter, where the SNP will decide if they want an individual to seek adoption as the prospective parliamentary candidate in any constituency. If he survives vetting, he is free to seek adoption in any constituency.
As this is an internal SNP matter at the moment, and as many visitors to this site are not SNP members (including the Rev., I believe) I have to question whether this discussion around Mr Murray serves any useful purpose.
I’d read some of the stuff on Craig Murray’s blog, before I saw him ‘live’ at the Steps Theatre in Dundee.
I subsequently had a short blether with him at ‘Hope Over Fear’ in George Square on 12th October.
Personally, I think he’s the calibre of MP we NEED to send down to Westminster next year, to shake it to its foundations.
Jiss sayin’ like, iye?
That was an interesting piece of simultaneous posting!
@ keaton, it was first mentioned by annie way up-thread, and then when queried by Craig, annie responded by saying not a tweet but a link to a blog. Didnt say whether it was Craigs blog though and no link was given.
Annie did say she had family in Israel and was upset. I would say having any family in Gaza would be more worrying.
Re Craig/Morag, it is becoming tiresome. Morag was asked to elaborate on the issue weeks ago but never did. As the saying goes put up or shut up.
No one is trying to silence you Morag (except perhaps when you’re playing the recorder and everyone in the entire orchestra is a quarter-tone flat, except you).
People are just exasperated that every time Craig Murray is mentioned here, or elsewhere, you just attack him. It’s rather disturbing and perplexing for the rest of us…
Always nice to see posters telling other posters to shut up and go away (on someone else’s blog).
Anyway, it seems to me that the fact we know of the dirt that’s already been thrown at CM is a point in his favour as a candidate. If the worst the state could accuse him of when he was blowing the whistle on their complicity in torturing people to death was being drunk at work, he strikes me as being an extraordinarily clean candidate.
@Alan Mackintosh
Yeah, I saw that. I can’t find the post in question by Googling CM’s blog, so if anyone has a link I’d be grateful.
WooHoo, Back in the land of the internet, the old computer gave up about 4 weeks ago just after I posted about the 30 pieces of silver for the BBC.
We managed to hand them into the reception at Pacific Quay.”we had hoped to get further into the building but it gave the reception staff a laugh”.
I think people should give Mr Murray a chance, he will have plenty of evidence on the Westmonster parties.
On a really serious note have you seen the price of Curlywurlys.
Gary.
ps.trying toget togrips with 8.1 on a lap top ahhhhhh
xp rules
Hi Morag.
You did mention in the past that you saw Craig Murray as a ‘loose cannon’.
Perchance it’s better to be behind a loose cannon than in front of the barrel of the gun, particularly as he seems to know where the bodies were buried.
Yes, as someone up above has pointed out, parliamentary privilege may be Westminster’s downfall.
All the best Craig and make sure you check your brakes before driving off !
link to youtube.com mr paton of indyref weekly.
just in not seen it all yet.
Hey Stu
Someone will be along shortly accusing you of using the mention of Craig Murray’s potential candidature for the SNP as clickbait. 😉
Hoss MacIntosh:
the SNP were complaining about US rendition flights long before Craig joined them.
I believe that’s correct, though I stand to be corrected myself, not that the British establishment and their secret police would give a damn what the SNP thought.
Now we send drones – war at a ‘safe’ distance.
As we decide which store to buy our festive fare, imagine being a poor, fearful ‘ethnic’ living in a village waiting for the deaded noise of that drone overhead – while we over turkey watch yet another documentary about life in the blitz, ‘doodlebugs’ overhead.
One law for us, another for non-Anglos.
When Bush, Chaney, and Rumsfeld flung ‘shock and awe’ at the innocents in Iraq he swatted a hornet’s nest. Those three should be prosecuted for torture, a war crime. Blair too.
We’re responsible for the rise of ISIS and its murderous caliphate now in control of swathes of Syria and Iraq – an opinion that comes not from me, (though I agree with it) but from a former CIA operative and analyst, Graham Fuller.
When I voted Yes for self-determination I hoped an ideal achieved in that act was a country that would never stain its reputation with illegal wars, torture, and rendition.
In that issue who would want to be one of the crowd?
Major, I’ll have you know I have an excellent ear! They were only trying to silence me because I was half a bar behind the other parts. And that’s my story and I’m sticking to it and the conductor will back me up.
I thought perhaps it would help if I explained yet again why I’m concerned about Mr. Murray as a potential SNP candidate. I did that, but all I’m getting are repeated accusations that I haven’t explained, and calls to shut up. I’m not demanding that Mr. Murray’s fans should stop going on about how utterly wonderful he is, and it would be nice if they would return the favour.
However, as I said, it’s all moot unless he actually passes the vetting process as an approved candidate. If he does, I might reconsider to some extent.
We are none of us perfect. Morag is often thoughtful and instructive but she does take irrational dislikes to folk, sometimes over things that are none of her business. And she is sometimes very vocal about it. Seriously, ignore it. She won’t stop.
And right now I’m with Grouse Beater. This is about more than one controversial wannabe candidate.
My problem is that the whole torture thing is just too ghastly to want to talk about. It’s not even as if it’s news, or a surprise. We all knew what these flights refuelling at Prestwick were for. That’s one of the reasons we wanted a Yes vote.
It’s all bloody depressing.
keaton says:
10 December, 2014 at 7:40 pm
It is quite different asking for evidence to justify a character assasination than asking them to shut up.
Craig will require nomination from 2 branches OR 10 members of the CA etc
they will look at:
Outstanding work touring the country for YES.
A prominent YES blog
Excellent education
An incredible Diplomatic background
An incredible network in London
Outstanding Public Speaking skills
Proven integrity (torture/rendition campaign)
and so on.
If someone has FACTS that counter the above then I’m willing to listen. I always repect the opinion of others but I prefer it to be based on some relevent information.
If Craig was being proposed at a CA meeting what would stop his nomination.
As a few people have pointed out the MSM/BBC will smear any SNP or other Yes party member even if there is nothing there.
Don’t forget the outrage at those SNP councillors burning one sheet of the Smith report -according to Dougie Alexander, it was the end of civilisation as we know it.
So no doubt if Craig Murray passes the vetting process, they will try to smear him also.
The fact that Craig has had experience of this type of thing in the past should make him be able to withstand the pressure if it comes to that.
I was at the women’s SNP conference in Ayr and one of the ladies there was telling us how she used to be an MSP but hated the press intrusion into her life so asked not to be reselected and now works behind the scenes training canvassers.
You need to have a thick skin to survive, I would welcome Craig as a candidate because of his experiences and inside knowledge of the diplomatic service, so good luck in the vetting process.
Like many other opposition parties across Europe, the British Labour Party has been relatively quiet when it comes to matters of foreign policy. It is however important for social democratic parties to develop and defend clear and credible positions in foreign policy.
link to fabians.org.uk
Wait a minute. Doesn’t the Fabian society control British Labour, and weren’t they telling us we are Better Together?
I smell something rather unpleasant, colloquially refereed to as SHITE.
being tortured is depressing, as all oppression is.
I have great respect for Craig and follow his articles with interest. What I don’t forget is I am sure he knows much more than he can say. I’m sure he is still covered by the official secrets act. What a wonderful asset to our cause. Big thank you Craig.
It is quite different asking for evidence to justify a character assasination than asking them to shut up.
True. But some posters here have quite explicitly told Morag to “shut up”. Just search the thread for the phrase.
And, I didn’t carry out a character assassination. I explained exactly why I was concerned that he was a prime target for adverse press coverage.
However, I imagine that is something the SNP vetting committee will take into account, along with all the positive things that have been said about him on the thread. As I said, if he passes the vetting I may reconsider to some extent.
That’s the job of the vetting committee. To examine all the information they have, on both sides of the scales, and come to a decision. I see nothing but adulation of Mr. Murray on here. I personally come down on the other side of the scale. The vetting committee is however the official arbiter. If they decide the whole shebang is worth it, that’s a different story.
I merely take exception to being repeatedly subjected to personal attacks and told to shut up, simply for expressing an opinion which is different from the one that liberally lards the thread.
Why do I always fail to spot the typos? Rage on this occasion.
It’s some sort of law of nature. Pro tip. Read the preview screen below the comment box, rather than reading what you just typed.
We still live in a media climate where any SNP candidate with a colourful past will be slaughtered in the press, on that score Morag is right and I don’t see how that is controversial. Most folk (unlike many of us) haven’t read the Catholic Orangemen of Togo or Murder in Samarkand and heard the story from the source himself.
I also don’t think Craig would be easily biddable on principles or outspokenness and might give the SNP leadership headaches on that score.
On the other hand – do we want a parliament full of party drones? And if Craig went to Westminster he certainly wouldn’t miss the target and hit the wall. He is likely to be an extremely hard working campaigner and if we do manage to elect 30 MPs, he would be one of the standouts.
The red mist was blinding.
Mr. Murray, I saw a video of you on YouTube and would like to thank you and to wish you the very best if you accept the candidacy. I have great admiration for you courage and look forward to your help in and for Scotland.
Merry Christmas. 🙂
Mon the Craig Murray. Go for it mate!
As an infrequent poster but regular reader, I too have found Morag’s constant attacks on Craig Murray, spanning at least the last six months, possibly longer, quite disturbing. I doubt he is perfect, who is, except the prudish blessed Morag. I disagree with Murray on a number of issues – his almost instinctive disdain for Vladimir Putin is painful to someone who sees Putin as standing up to the US neo-con unipolar world agenda – and disagreed mildly with him on something else, so insignificant I’ve forgotten what it is. I wouldn’t say he is as far to the left of politics as I would like him to be, he stands almost alone on the untended middle ground, he’s certainly not doctrinaire, more contrarian, but I find nothing too objectionable in his outlook and he is receptive to others views, might even come around with a little persuasion and empirical proofs.
I have to say too I found Morag’s much vaunted Lockerbie book to be largely plagiarism of the late Paul Foote’s Private Eye Lockerbie report, and her persona a school-marmish channeling of Mary Whitehouse of the National Viewers and Listeners Whatever, killjoy moral guardians.
As someone said above, the real issue is that Jack Straw, Tony Blair and most of the upper reaches of the Labour/Red Tory Party are in some cases fully active witting participants, and for a great many others, at least damningly complicit, in the most appalling human rights abuses possible.
Craig Murray has been vindicated by the admissions of systematic torture emanating from the US. I’d have been proud for him to have stood in my local area against Michael Moore in the Borders. Kirkcaldy or wherever instead I hope will have that honour and be well-served by an able man of the world, who has been through a lot and come through stronger and wiser. It is really I think up to the SNP and pro-independence parties’ local people where he is hoping to stand, and I hope he makes a good impression and can win, the candidacy and the seat, his commitment to independence, fundamental human rights and social justice shines out.
As an infrequent poster but regular reader, I too have found Morag’s constant attacks on Craig Murray, spanning at least the last six months, possibly longer, quite disturbing. I doubt he is perfect, who is, except the prudish blessed Morag. I disagree with Murray on a number of issues – his almost instinctive disdain for Vladimir Putin is painful to someone who sees Putin as standing up to the US neo-con unipolar world agenda – and disagreed mildly with him on something else, so insignificant I’ve forgotten what it is. I wouldn’t say he is as far to the left of politics as I would like him to be, he stands almost alone on the untended middle ground, he’s certainly not doctrinaire, more contrarian, but I find nothing too objectionable in his outlook and he is receptive to others views, might even come around with a little persuasion and empirical proofs.
I have to say too I found Morag’s much vaunted Lockerbie book to be largely plagiarism of the late Paul Foote’s Private Eye Lockerbie report, and her persona a school-marmish channeling of Mary Whitehouse of the National Viewers and Listeners Whatever, killjoy moral guardians.
As someone said above, the real issue is that Jack Straw, Tony Blair and most of the upper reaches of the Labour/Red Tory Party are in some cases fully active witting participants, and for a great many others, at least damningly complicit, in the most appalling human rights abuses possible.
Craig Murray has been vindicated by the admissions of systematic torture emanating from the US. I’d have been proud for him to have stood in my local area against Michael Moore in the Borders. Kirkcaldy or wherever instead I hope will have that honour and be well-served by an able man of the world, who has been through a lot and come through stronger and wiser. It is really I think up to the SNP and pro-independence parties’ local people where he is hoping to stand, and I hope he makes a good impression and can win, the candidacy and the seat, his commitment to independence, fundamental human rights and social justice shines out.
Re-posting incase my comments (as usual) disappearing into a void, was just a blip, apologies if a double post results.
Anyone curious about Craig Murray’s non-political activities – especially those which make make him ’eminently smearable’ – may find this of interest.
It’s a link to Murray’s own blog, where he highlights a Der Spiegel article about him, and admits that ‘it is fair’.
So – is this what all the fuss is about? Or is there more?
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Every SNP candidate for any position anywhere in the country will be considered a prime target, get used to it. The bbd and msm will lie on every occasion where they think they can damage Scotland. Craig in the HoC I like that, he will know where some skeletons are buried, this will bother some of the people in the establishment
Ian Brotherhood
skimmed; graig is right pleasing master gets one nowhere, except in an even worse position.
@Skip_NC
Have just been reading about Senator Dianne Feinstein she certainly seems to be a person with high morals ,dare I say a honest politician .
@ CameronB ur tryin tae cash in to ma claim to fame
Why do I always fail to spot the typos?
Its the eyes failing tae see, or in ma case seeing but brain disconnect. & forgetting theres a edit box,you,ve seen some of ma posts ha ha dont get stressed oot Cameron.Its only words & thats no a que fur a song lol.
Good article on uk rendition involvement by derek bateman on newsnet scotland complete with reference to jim murphy,s silence over labour,s gadaffi links
“I will never apologise for the United States … I don’t care what the facts are … I’m not an apologise-for-America sort of guy.”
President Bush
I’ve watched quite a few speeches by Craig Murray and read his blog a few times, and must say I’m an admirer. I didn’t exactly work for the Embassy, but was working with them between 2005 and 2009 and socialised with several Embassy staff, kind of through accident as can happen in some countries.
Anyway, when I found out about the Uzbekistan revelations around end of 2005 or beginning of 2006, and raised it with my bar buddies I was quite amused to find a kind of closing of ranks of embassy staff. Some ad hominem rumour type stuff that was presumably supposed to negate or at least water down the message. I’ve no idea if these people really believed what they were saying, but they may well have done; these were youngish folk – children of 70s or even 80s – who could say with a straight face in a pub how proud they were of the British empire, and throwing in a kind of ‘and you Scots did a great job too you know’ line to make me feel part of things.
Ian Brotherhood says:
10 December, 2014 at 8:56 pm
Thanks for the link Ian – I see nothing negative there. He is his own man and just what we need.
Grousebeater 7.59,
‘…living in a village waiting for the deaded noise of that drone overhead’..
Terrifying. I was putting Jehad Saftawi’s livestream on during that last Gaza attack and that noise really gets into you. Even safe on my wee cnoc thousands of miles away the tension grew into fear and when the feed went down I could still hear them.
Was that about the Vincennes shooting down IR655? The lack of apology for that one had some pretty dire and far-reaching consequences, if we believe common interpretations of what happened next.
I think Morag is upset because she has not been asked to stand!
I can’t help but like Craig Murray, he is intelligent and above all principled. No surprise then that he pissed off his establishment masters.
He will say what he thinks and doesn’t care who he upsets even if it may prove detrimental to his heealth or wealth.
Reminds me of the Rev and Alex Salmond. I hope he is selected and wins a seat. We could use 30 more like him who are willing to stare in the eyes of those that will use us.
Look at the Labour candidates recently highlighted here on Wings, who would you rather have in your corner representing YOU?
It’s an inconvenient truth that some of us do not notice typos when we comment – but fortunately we have a head girl who will currect us when she’s knot too busy.
On thread…
John Finnie has raised the issue in Parliament and the Lord Advocate has asked Police Scotland to investigate these flights further in light of the U.S. senate report. This could lead to criminal charges in Scotland.
link to bbc.co.uk
Can we extradite Jack Straw and Tony Blair?
It strikes me that one or two people on this thread need to get out a bit more – how about having a break and come back refreshed after the New Year.
ronnie anderson
I’m not worthy. 🙂
Lucky we have the findings of the Chilcot inquiry published in full detail.
Its timely release after the inquiry concluded in Feb’11 is a beacon for UK-OK transparent democracy and the rule of law.
Yerkitbreeks – have you been outdoors today!!!
Simply wanted to add my unequivocal support of Craig Murray to this thread. A most welcome addition.
Playing Mr. Nice guy (partly) lost us the indie ref. Round 2, gloves off, don’t pull the punches and get ripped in about them.
Hoss Mackintosh says:
On thread…
John Finnie has raised the issue in Parliament and the Lord Advocate has asked Police Scotland to investigate these flights further in light of the U.S. senate report. This could lead to criminal charges in Scotland.
link to bbc.co.uk
Can we extradite Jack Straw and Tony Blair?
Ya wee dancer!
I think this news falls under the heading of “There is a GAWD” Hoss! 😉
Sometimes, I am happy enough not to post on Wings, less infrequently than before.
Good luck Craig
@Sinky,
That may explain why Dereks blog was knocked out most of the day.
Timely reminder thanx.
This is horrendous. I truly wish I could be surprised at the admissions, but I think media culture has been conditioning us to prepare for it. 24 showed US government employees torturing, interrogating and displaying grotesque misuse of power, and justified it in a narrative context by having it prevent greater atrocities. Zero Dark Thirty falsely presented “evidence” extracted from torture as being crucial in the slaying of Osama Bin Laden. All these Law & Order and CSI spinoffs have methods you could describe as torture yielding effective results.
The paranoid cynic in me wonders if this horrifying tendency in media to portray torture as effective is intentional, to create an entirely false ambiguity. It falsely implies that torture is remotely reliable as a method of extracting evidence. And so, with this information, we have to ask not only if our journalistic media, but our creative media has been compromised.
The National’s front page tomorrow;
link to twitter.com
I’ve just skimmed through the comments so apologies if I missed something. Here is the link to the talk Craig gave at St Andrews where he says that you can’t vote NO and be a moral person (after hearing what he has to say about the UK state).
link to youtube.com
I agree. I hope Craig wins his seat and gets into Westminster to kick up a storm! Somebody has to.
cearc
Empirical medical research suggests that viewing such violence has a detrimental psychological impact on the viewer. It beats them down and basically terrorises them. I think this is why news reports of such violence are so popular with state broadcasters, such as the BBC.
Was that about the Vincennes shooting down IR655?
It was. I see he’s made a similar response to the release of the Torture report.
Those of a like-mind feel that, while the inquiry was necessary, making public its findings most definitely is not, for it will succour to our (USA) enemies.
Which is to say, what we do in your name we do in secret, so that you do not know exactly what we do in your name.
The UK’s involvement, names, places, times, et cetera, have been redacted.
Morag
I think i will also need to become involved in the ‘groupthink’ and add to the ‘lard’ of the thread by stating that i will be delighted if Mr Murray is successfully vetted and selected to stand.
I think more of the population than you imagine would respect a ‘loose cannon’ who had something to say about the corrupt establishment we are all fighting against.
Taranaich
Call me crazy if you like, but I suspect the almost constant police dramas and reality-TV style programs, the CSIs and all the rest, are aimed at conditioning us to accept a police state. One of the reasons I gave up TV.
I’ve always been of the view authority should be questioned, a keystone of the democratic process, but especially authority figures who ask for more power, and yes, I do understand how that applies to the SNP and independence. But then, Scotland’s authority is severely limited and curtailed.
There’s Milgram’s now famous experiment of giving obedience to authority.
We prefer to be part of a group even when it runs counter to our principles, conflicting with our conscience.
Volunteers gave electric shocks to an unseen patient to help with the patient’s ‘learning.’ The patient sitting hidden behind a screen, an actor, feigns pain, screaming, increasing his cries in volume and banging on the wall each time the volunteer is instructed by the ‘medical consultant’ to increase the wattage.
Only a few volunteers refused to do it after one or no turns of the dial. Those are people I admire, the one’s who say ‘enough’ when they realise the consequences of their actions. They tend to be marked out as rebels, or mavericks.
Some volunteers complained, but thinking it was doing the ‘patient’ good, and intent on pleasing the consultant, continued to follow the consultant’s dire instruction.
Hence, in times of war, madness is justified with the ‘I was following orders’ defence.
(The ‘consultant’ has another name I can’t remember – but you get the gist.)
Lard – The Power of Lard
link to youtube.com
An inconvenient truth – I’ve been looking at some early Wings threads – the Rev certainly gave short shift to many, can I please ask that we all agree to differ on some topics? I have been at many Wings events – even with Ronnie Anderson and Thepnr’s skills – it’s still a case of herding cats.
We are all able to be amicable – if not go to quarantine and bludgeon it out, it’s to the left at the bottom of Off topic which is listed under zany comic relief.
An inconvenient truth – not everyone is in the same herd.
In 2004 we (Ayrshire SSP) went into Prestwick Airport, with loudhailer and leaflets alerting the airport’s users to the likelihood that rendition (a little-known neologism at the time) was being conducted via the premises.
We were booted out (i.e. ‘asked to leave’) and tried to deliver our message from the nearest ‘public’ pavement, approximately 50 yards from the main passenger entrance.
We went back a couple of weeks later and insisted they accept a letter of protest – no-one would touch it, but eventually, after being assured she would not be photographed, a sympathetic member of staff accepted it over a high desk. Local press? Not interested. National press? Three guesses…
They knew. Straw. Blair. Ingram. Reid. Des Browne. Robertson. Lidl. If one knew? They all did…‘we are fam-i-leeeee!’.
A lifelong pox on each and every one of them for what they did then, and are continuing to support right now.
@ Hoss Mackintosh
@ Lesley Anne
I would,nt hold my breath on Police Scotland making anyheadway,just another expensive enquiry.
Since the aircraft were US & landed in US base in England prior to landing in Scotland. I doupt very much if anyone was allowed to view the inside of the plane,no evidence no case.
This sadly is more than a mere publicity coup, and I think we all know that the U.K., more specifically Mr Blair was jumping through hoops to impress the Americans. He sent our men to war ill prepared in terms of equipment, infected with neurological toxins in the shape of inoculations, in a mission which ultimately has destabilised the Middle East, and Afghanistan. We actually plunged this country into the front line of terrorist hate, but did it gladly to curry favour with the good old U.S.A.Blair and all the Labour Party including Murphy have much to answer for, hopefully in some court.
Morag will never allow a herd mentality to develop for which I applaud her, on the other hand a herd of wingers is so delightfully ridiculous.
According to the telly weather today,we are all north british today, I’m still Scottish though. 🙂
Best of luck to Craig Murray – he’s a man who will fight the machine. That’s if the machine doesn’t spike his vetting result.
I’ve been away for my dinner for quite a while and this bloody person is still having a row with everybody, what the blazes is it that you seem not to understand that everybody, YES everybody has a completely valid opinion that’s why it’s called an opinion, not everyone may be blessed or touched by the angel of all knowledge as the all knowing one..get yourself an Irn Bru crate and.. no wait that shit’s been done This site used to be informative and fun with lots of clever people posting, but i’m noticing we’re losing some because of this kind of nonsense and i for one dont care whose side you say you’re on but it does’nt feel like mine…I am Alex Salmond…
Grouse Beater
yes, stanley milgram, just following order’s.
collective cognitive convergence is what WM suffers from, by cause of career politics, which is very bad for democracy.
then pavlov’s dog’s, operant conditioning.
mix in a bit of piaget’s concrete operational, we have a disaster on our hands.
hard to tell their politics apart now.
apart from the mantra’s they spout claiming to be this that or the other.
weave red clydesider’s into a speech, now mean’s that the speaker is a socialist??
but as we know socialist actions make one a socialist, not word’s.
No ne seems to mention Britain’s torture role since Labour sent the Troops in to Ireland in 1969.
Looking forward to the full interview with John Pilger about the media’s part in ‘normalising’ uk involvement in torture…
link to rt.com
Ian: In 2004 we (Ayrshire SSP) went into Prestwick Airport with loudhailer and leaflets alerting the airport’s users to the likelihood that rendition … was conducted via the premises.
Well done! I had not heard of a single protest, but then you explain why.
I remember hearing something about it, though I’m not sure how. The SSP has just tweeted some photos.
link to twitter.com
Good that someone tried, at least.
One of the most interesting things about Craig Murray is how he has become an unperson in the UK broadcast and print media; even to link to his blog on the Guardian Comment is Free is to invite moderation. If you read his blog, there are a number of stories of him being invited onto Question Time, Any Questions?, the Today Programme, and then being disinvited a day or two later, often at quite short notice. It is almost as if there was a department of preventing undesirables from appearing on TV or radio phoning up producers and saying “No, he’s not the right sort of chap.”
And now we have a US Senate report admitting to official sanctioned torture. Which media outlets have asked for the views of the UK Ambassador who resigned over the issue? Russia Today.
@donald anderson 10:28 pm
well you have to admire the USA in coming out with the truth. It would never happen here.
The Irish government has just taken the UK back to court for torture, the UK have suppressed Lord Stevens report as it would disclose the state role in the random murder of 400 civilians unconnected with terrorism and just try googling pat finucane and rosemary nelson or the many inquests that are still waiting to be heard up to 40 years later or my local pub in Loughlinisland.
When Scotland becomes independent please God the security services will either be abolished or brought under transparent democratic control and subject to the law.
And I’m feeling lucky not to be a Muslim these days
Shadow
Maybe, if he gets elected, they will use an actor’s voice like for Gerry Adams, e.g. when they have to show questions at PMQs.
Now that would be a Streisand effect.
Craig has the ability to be a great addition to the SNP at Westminister, a very courageous decent individual. Look forward to him being elected.
His Blog is well worth reading.
When we speak about press smears, what press are we worried about? The Daily Rangers and The Sun are the only mass market papers. The BBC is now a discredited joke. Should we really fear or even get phased by what any of them say? None of them is going to be cheerleading the SNP Alliance in May.So we are perhaps in order to think about the actions we can take to counter smearing.
I have read lots about MP’s dodgy expenses dealings. I’ve heard lots of gossip on the likes of Guido’s about individual members. Hows about if they get dirty some of the unaffiliated – and not bound by party discipline – stick it right back at them. Flyers A3 in colour can be printed from about £40 a thousand. I have bill posted doors and reckon one person can get about 150 an hour through letterboxes. This whole Yes campaign was in the end a peoples campaign. I do not believe that even though the SNP started the ball rolling, that by the end they were “in control”. So its back to the idea of being creative again. Obviously there are libel laws, but if you only ever print verifiable published facts you are unlikely to be taken on.
I read Craig’s book when it first came out and was impressed by his honesty, courage and willingness to challenge the British State. I was surprised and delighted when I discovered his support for Yes during the IndyRef. I think he needs to temper his anger, and I understand his distrust of the British state and the Establishment. But, who better than he, understands it, how it works and how to counter it. He can only be a tremendous asset to the Yes Movement. I would like to see him in Westminster!
Brilliant moment on Scotland 2014 when Herald journalist and Labour party apologist Catherine McLeod was asked what policies the Labour party had in Scotland. Answer came their none except the SNP are bad ohh yes……
Herding cats it is then.
Notice how any anti-establishment organization seemed to split, or die out? There was even a Monty Python film about it.
Fuck this people.
Fingers out of arses big time.
Morag and Craig are on the same side. Sort of.
Remember that.
The BBC today hammered the SNP at regular intervals on NHS,Education and justice administration. No mention about Westminster cuts.
Reading the Independent however you realise the situation in England is worse.
Just wait until Mrphy gets going.As I speak Kezia Dugdale pops up on STV blah blah blah SNP bad!
ronnie anderson
I seem to remember reading that Strthclyde Police attempted to gain access to one of the rendition flights that landed at Prestwick. If I remember correctly, access was denied by armed US officials who claimed the aircraft was ‘US territory’.
You simply couldn’t make this stuff up.
@Ronnie A
Yes you are probably right. Nothing will come of it in the end – it will be released perhaps after 100 years or so…
However, if it puts Straw and Murphy (he was in the cabinet at the time – was he not?) on the back foot for the next few months then that will be pretty good.
Hi Conan honey – all the cats gather here xx
Morag is a pain in the arse & her morale crusade has once again caused me to prematurely divert from reading anymore on these pages.
And I won’t blame any new readers for having done the same tonight.
Well done Morag. A bottle of vinegar will be shipped out first thing in the morning.
@Conan_the_Librarian “Fingers out of arses big time.
Morag and Craig are on the same side”
too bloody right – and I for one will light a candle that they don’t forget it
Oh here we go folks disorting scotland with the rhona and the kursty sticking it to the SNP about teachers ratio to amount of kids and laboor jumping on the band wagon fat dugdale stating even if its a small increase its not good enough how effing dare they hypocrites the lot of them they couldnae run a bath never mind a party….even a monkey would know how difficult it is for any party working within the constraints of westmonster budgets.,,last week it was all about the burning of the smith report and now its the ratio of teachers to kids …what next ? Alex made me laugh though when he held up the dagger thing hes selling as part of his charity auction ….esp when he joked ..it would maybe come in handy at Westmonster ……ha ha ha …..maybe they will jail him in the Tower ……
This has almost become an intellectual exercise to determine just how little dissent from the majority opinion will be tolerated. Answer, very little.
That people can’t cope with reading an opinion different from their own, actively call for the person to be silenced, and indulge in petty personal attacks, is quite surprising to me. I suppose I should be used to it.
Hold on – new mantra – British people good Scottish people bad
We’re all fucking British its to do with geographic land mass
we can choose to be yuckish, yukanian or Scottish.
‘An inconvenient truth – not everyone is in the same herd.’
Absolutely. This site thrives on diverse opinion and discussion/disagreement. Most of the time, by using respectful, inclusive language and knowing when to employ humility, this works.
Unfortunately there is a common denominator in many of the ridiculous spats that occur here.
Some people can, and want to, take others with them even through disagreement (leaders) with the language they can deploy. Others (often well intentioned but never the less completely unaware) are prone to and may even thrive on bringing others down with theirs.
I believe many threads have suffered, and much to the detriment of the site, because of the latter.
I wasn’t going to comment on this thread, but on reflection…
There is always a problem in foreign relations over how you deal with unpleasant regimes. Do you call them out publicly and get ignored for your pains, or do you try and work ‘behind the scenes’ to get them to see the error of their ways?
The UK govt has traditonally taken the latter route – and it works – sometimes. In small ways, true, but often significant.
The question concerning Mr Murray is not whether he had the moral right to protest against his employer’s (UK govt’s) policy – of course he did. The question is whether he should have resigned before doing so.
And this has implications for his role as MP. Anyone who has stood for elected office in any party will be familiar with the need to sign up to the disciplinary procedures – which boil down to the occasional need to hold your nose and vote for the stated policy of your party, despite your misgivings. If you don’t like it, you resign, or don’t stand in the first place.
We need people to hold the moral high ground – that’s indisputable. But whether they should be in a diplomatic service or a political party is a more difficult decision.
I find Craig Murray utterly fascinating, what a life he has led (I’m reading the Catholic Orangemen). Its a world most of us know nothing about, nor really want to! I believe Mr Murray to be an incredibly brave, intelligent and principled individual, and wish him luck in his bid.
I’m sure he is not entering into this lightly, and knows far more than we do about what the State can throw at him, yet he is still willing to do his bit to help this country.
How about the folk on this site DON’T do the Unionist’s job for them.
“Just following orders” didn’t excuse the Auschwitz guards, why do Nats think that they have nothing to do with Scotland’s cheerful participation in and benefit from centuries of Empire?
It’s particularly interesting when Union came about in the first place because of Scotland’s attempts to establish its own overseas colonies. Had Darien succeeded and Scotland been an imperial power in its own right, would you be so quick to condemn?
Re Craig Murray.
Craig, I enjoy your blog & wish you well in your efforts to be selected as an SNP candidate.
@Bob Mack
“..Blair was jumping through hoops to impress the Americans.”
Go onto YouTube, Bob. Take a look at a documentary the BBC did called “The Blair Years”. Straight from the horse’s mouth : Tony talks about the run-up to the vote on the Iraq War. People thought he was just trying to impress the Yanks (Bush’s poodle). Not so. Listen to what Tony says. “In a sense it’s worse than that. I actually BELIEVED in it. I believed in it then and I believe in it now.”
I wonder if the putative leader of Labour’s North British Branch, the Rt Hon Jim Murphy, still believes in it? Given the shocking contents of the U.S. Report on CIA torture, has anyone called Murphy to account? That story would be 100x more newsworthy than a smearing hatchet job on Craig Murray.
I disagree Morag.
There are characters on here, who by force of will and knowledge tend to guide discourse.
When they collide it’s only the Daily Mail who gains…
ronnie anderson
I have heard that cleaners were allowed onboard at Prestwick.
People
Remember we are all (well most of us) on the same side. Everybodies opinion is valid and respected. No use falling out with each other.
When I worked for a living, I spend a lot of time dealing with colleagues on the phone or via email and sometimes when relations had become strained most times if we ever met up face to face, things would go better thereafter.
Maybe we should have another WOS night out in Glasgow after the new year?
My tuppence worth on Craig, I am an admirer, even have a autographed book. I previously thought that you should do the time before being selected as a candidate, however on reflection, I think that Craig Murray would be an asset and therefore should be able to stand for the SNP.
We do get some Right Jolly Fuckwits on here don’t we?
Apparently Labour are publicly calling on Nicola not to approve Craig Murray as an SNP candidate. Is that because they think he’ll be a thorn in their side? Or is it a wee bit of double-bluff?
Heck knows, I don’t.
I hope Craig gets elected to stand, but that’s up to the SNP and no one else. Morag, when you get a bee in your bonnet……..!
Morag,
“I’ve said before that I worry that Craig Murray is a loose cannon who would struggle to work in a team with the SNP group. Also that his past leaves him wide open to damaging smears. It doesn’t really matter whether that stuff it true or not, it was used to smear him before, very effectively, and it can be trotted out to do the same job again. So the idea of him as a candidate isn’t one I particularly welcome.”
Craig Murray is a rare diplomat who sacrificed his career for his principles. And he has been proven right while the likes of Bliar and Straw have been exposed as liars.
If you have issues with him, god knows how many people you have issues with.
You didn’t have any issues with Blair Jenkins did you?
Morag,
Any ‘principled’ lawyers who can speedingly form a case against Bliar and Straw for their complicity in illegal and brutal torture?
Before this ‘evidence’ did you believe it was just a conspiracy theory?
Whatever makes you think that, Rock?
I don’t believe that anyone on these threads are preventing anyone from expressing their view.
I don’t believe anyone is trying to silence dissenting views.
I don’t believe there is a groupthink, herd attitude.
I think that some people don’t seem to realise that they are being insulting towards folk who disagree with them, we need to keep all disagreements impersonal.
My last comment on this as I think it is distracting from our common goal and so in future I’m going to ignore any comments which try to create division either knowingly or unknowingly.
That last reply was for the post before the one above it, but it’ll do anyway.
I thought the whole torture thing and the rendition flights through Prestwick was common knowledge for years. I mean, who’s surprised?
@paula rose
Pure genius !
You have just found the new name for the rUK that we have been looking for all this time.
YUKANIA !
Now we just need to get there. 🙂
Ah – in a few years time, I can just see the Royal Albert Hall resounding to…
“Rule Yukania. Yukania rules the waves…”
Morag, 11.39,
Well they would wouldn’t they.
The thought of Murray speaking with parliamentary privelege will be causing much anxiety in their circles. Especially after today’s letter from America.
Morag/Craig Murray
Surely this has been chewed over enough. Time for bed and a fresh topic tomorrow.(hopefully)
Well, Cearc, I don’t know. Maybe they’re naive wee souls who really think Nicola will take their advice at face value, because obviously they have no motive other than the good of the SNP.
Or maybe they’re devious politicians who calculate that one way to improve the chances of a controversial figure being selected is to call publicly for him not to be selected.
As I said, heck knows.
Big Hoss honey – I didn’t originate it, but I keep their flag flying – it’s pronounced
Yeuckania (that’s mine and Better Together St Kilda’s)
@ Graeme Doig Well said Graeme as with Bob Sinclair Ian Brotherhood voices in the wilderness.I gave up the last time on this issue,many of us have had disagreements over the years but resolve to disengadge for the betterment of this site.
There,s is only one Moderator of this WOS site & I wish to god he would intervene more often.
Dont keep picking at scabs lads n lasses we,re better than that,lets get back to what we do best Inform & Share information.
Paula Rose,
Yes Ma’am. You called my name.
For what it’s worth, I fully understand Morag’s reservations regarding CM being less than squeaky clean as a candidate,probably leading to an onslaught of ad hominem attacks from the MSM.
However on balance, I’d give anything to hear CM unleashed on Westminster with parliamentary immunity.
I think that the SNP need to take a strong line, when attacks are made on people, that SNP members and representatives are individuals. Therefore, they are entitled to express their own opinions.
It is the ‘good of the party/party first’ mentalilty that has created the obnoxious goverment cover-ups on so many issues.
Just as with Wingers and the larger Yes movements, the SNP contains people of varying political shades who have coalesced for the greater good. It is a movement as well as a political party.
Morag says: “Apparently Labour are publicly calling on Nicola not to approve Craig Murray as an SNP candidate. Is that because they think he’ll be a thorn in their side? Or is it a wee bit of double-bluff?”
If Craig were elected then the media would be unable to ignore him any more. Presumably the media would be annoyed about this, they would rather keep ignoring him. He might tell the general public things that the Establishment would rather keep quiet.
For that reason alone, I’m up for Craig going to Westminster. And even if he were the squeakiest of squeaky clean they would just make up lies to smear him with anyway like the Daily Mail did with Nicola and the Crown Estate/Sovereign grant the other day.
we are all on a bus and need enough fares to get to the next stop in 2015 and 2016 on route to the final destination, There’s plenty of room, smokers upstairs, Greens providing fuel, SNP driving, socialists collecting fares.
There are plenty of spare seats for Morag, Craig and the rainbow pantheon of talent that is YES.
We need to be inclusive and permissive and broaden the base way beyond 45%.
Anyway, we need to trust local democratic selection committees – none of us has all the answers. As my mother used to say, ‘he who never made a mistake never did anything’. Lets trust whichever local group has to decide about Craig and let this issue drop once and for all.
(but I am still looking for SNP/Green and SNP/Soc candidates with a view to 59 seats)
Thank God for diversity. You can only learn, and make up your own mind, through gathering the facts and making a judgement on those facts. This thread has helped me tonight to do so. The danger is always that you do not allow others to think outside your own box of knowledge. This often leads to bad outcomes, and I would rather have the discussions we have, than live in the realm of the singular thought where no-one is enabled to point out mistakes. My electric blanket awaits.
@Cadogan Enright
Your talking common sense here. Works for me, nothing need be complicated. What’s right is well just that.
@paula rose
“Rule Yeuckania. Yeuckania rules the waves…”
Yes – that sounds like a much better pronunciation.
I will use Yukanians and Yukania from now on to describe our imperial masters and their homeland.
I wonder if you even get proud Yukanianbuts down suff?
Fuck it, I’ll break cover.
Morag, do you still consider me a Fuckwit. Your words not mine.
If not, any chance of an apology?
Linky? For context, you understand.
You asked to shake hands, and I did, in good faith. I don’t believe I’ve disagreed with you in the months since. Still, your call.
Jim Spud Murphy is still grabbing headlines. I have compiled the largest report on the enigma that is Jim. Love him or hate him he is not going away any time soon. I was waiting for him to play the religion card and he duly did so.
It would be unwise to underrate Murphy. The loneliness of the long distance runner generates lots of thinking time.
There’s much reading in the blog
link to caltonjock.com
Yo! CameronB Brodie ! its an on-line forum bus – you might never meet – you can always move seats or complain to the conductor.
If someone won’t apologise for obscenities, you can either ignore it or complain to the rev.
Theres loads of room here upstairs. No point in upsetting the other passengers
chill man
We dont know what our policies are today but we’ll probably know on saturday if we win, but if we dont win we’ll know what our policies are’nt, coz they’ll not be the policies of whoever does win and then we will vigorously oppose those policies of the ones who do win and that will be our firm commitment to the people of Scotland going forward and we’ll make no apologies for that policy and our promises of these progressive policies and then we will review them and i’m big and ugly enough to do that…My Name is Murphy, and i want to be First Min..MSP.. MP..Boss.. em, Something.. anything?
If someone is accused of uttering an obscenity she doesn’t remember even using, never mind the context, it would seem reasonable to provide a link.
I guess it’s possible I might have lost my temper and said that at some time in the past, but I’m not going to grovel on a mere accusation.
@Paula Rose (fuckwits) is that insertion through the earhole lol.
@Lenny Hartley
colleagues on the phone or via email and sometimes when relations had become strained most times if we ever met up face to face, things would go better thereafter.
A lot of people on this site have never met on a social nite out & engadged in disrespecting other Wingers & that has to stop.
Oh yes, and it’s a bit hypocritical, don’t you think, for someone to cosy up all friendly and ask to shake hands and let’s make up and let bygones be bygones and all that, then suddenly to come out with an ancient grievance that has nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
I don’t even know if Cameron is telling the truth. I don’t believe we’ve had a cross word since that evening in Edinburgh where he asked to shake hands.
@ Thepnr did you enjoy your holiday, sos about the early morning call.
Ronnie, I met Cameron, and he asked to shake hands and be friends. Since then I have tried not to become exasperated with him, because I took the handshake seriously.
I don’t even know what he’s on about, until he provides a link. I’m not damn well apologising for something I don’t even remember doing, and therefore have no context for.
Cadogan Enright
I’m not sure if you are seeing the bigger picture. I get your drift and I don’t mean to be rude, but this doesn’t concern you.
Hey big brur, I see you have an avatar. Reminds me slightly of the elder brother of our near farming neighbours at Proncy.
@ keaton if your “shut up” comment was referring to me I suggest you go back to the previous threads weeks/months ago and see for yourself rather than casting aspersions.
It strikes me that as Craig has seen diplomatic service he would have been subject to serious vetting to even reach the position he held, so there shouldn’t be any skeletons in the closets, unless our “friends” (waves to Cheltenham) have put them there.
As I mentioned upthread, we too in the Highlands have had the rendition flights passing through, Inverness and Wick. I wonder how HIAL (Highland and Island Airports Ltd) logged those CIA flights. No surprise they came somewhere quieter for refueling.
Rite am oota here
Morag,
“If he was standing for a unionist party, I’d fully expect to see a WoS article filleting him. Unfortunately.”
Well, as self appointed Deputy Editor of W O S, you have wasted no time in filleting him.
Whether you like it or not, Craig Murray sacrificed a lucrative career for his principles and unlike the respected lawyers you so admire has not hesitated to publicly attack the lowest of the lowest of the low, Jack Straw.
Muscleguy,
“The best thing about getting Craig into parliament will be that he will be able to say things under parliamentary privilege. I expect there are a whole slew of things he would like to say but dare not in public or print. For this reason alone we must get him into parliament.”
Very good point.
@Cadogan Enright: hear hear
Morag
You appear to have a very selective memory. Let me remind you that you refused my hand when offered on Calton Hill and then denied knowing who I was at the WOS get-together in Edinburgh.
The reason we haven’t had a cross word, is I was ignoring you for the sake of the site. That is all I will say in public, appart from asking if you still consider me a Fuckwit?
Morag,
“Just because someone is on our side doesn’t automatically make him a plaster saint, or set him above criticism.”
That applies more to YOU than any other poster on this site, apart from the trolls, in my view.
You have a typical British Establishment sneering attitude to anyone who disagrees with you. And there are many on here who do often disagree with you.
Why don’t you give your ego a rest?
Cameron, Calton Hill was very crowded. I didn’t deliberately refuse your hand. I don’t even remember you being there. I had a vague memory of someone I thought might be you but when I met you in Edinburgh you weren’t the person I thought I remembered from Calton Hill.
So, all that shake hands and make up in the pub in Edinburgh was a complete sham? I’m sorry to hear it.
Now, would you link to this incident you’re going on about, because I don’t remember calling you that. Show me the context.
Oh yes, and it’s a bit hypocritical, don’t you think, for someone to cosy up all friendly and ask to shake hands and let’s make up and let bygones be bygones and all that, then suddenly to come out with an ancient grievance that has nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
Grow up please.
Rock, who made you (or any of the pile-on crew) guardians of what can and can’t be said here? If Mr. Murray is selected and elected and turns out to be a great MP, I’ll be very pleased indeed. (Very surprised indeed too, but I like pleasant surprises.)
Until that happens, I don’t agree that biting one’s lip and not expressing real and genuine concerns is a constructive strategy.
I haven’t attacked anyone for thinking that he’s a wonderful chap. I’ve merely disagreed, and explained why. For that I have been subjected to a barrage of personal attacks and demands that I be silenced.
It’s not pretty.
Cameron, if you think it’s “grown up” to stage a big reconciliation production, then disavow it and dredge up ancient imagined wrongs, I’ll stay childike thanks.
Now please link to this post where you allege I called you an abusive name. Until I see the context, I have no idea whether I should be apologising or repeating the opinion.
It was on your Lockerbie post, quite near the start.
I have no wish of dragging your poor judgement up in public, so go and look for yourself.
Night, night folks.
Morag,
“Rock, who made you (or any of the pile-on crew) guardians of what can and can’t be said here?”
That is the question YOU, as self appointed Deputy Editor of W O S, need to answer.
How can you claim that others are silencing you when you comment more than almost anyone else?
The vast majority of posters on this article have strongly disagreed with you regarding Craig Murray.
So if you used your common sense, you would accept the ‘landslide’ majority opinion and shut up on Craig Murray.
This site and the wider independence movement is about much more than YOUR ego and your sneering attitude.
Rev Stu… this is still your blog?
I just checked the date of that article. 3rd January 2013. That is TWO YEARS AGO, as near as dammit.
It’s the first time I was really aware of you on this blog, Cameron. You jumped into the BTL thread under my article, about the second or third post, with an extraordinarily annoying off-topic reference to 9/11. You then staged a petulant and extremely determined derail of the thread, making it very difficult to discuss Lockerbie itself for your repeated demands that I must agree with your position on 9/11.
I thought that sort of thing was what we had agreed to put behind us, that evening in Edinburgh. It now seems that this wasn’t a sincere approach on your part. I’ll leave that to be your problem, not mine.