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The inconvenient truths

Posted on December 10, 2014 by

Today’s media is dominated by reports on the release by the US government of a deeply horrifying dossier admitting and detailing the massive scale of torture carried out by the CIA on often-innocent detainees during the USA’s “war on terror”.

You can’t chuck a brick at the internet without hitting a hundred links on the subject, so we’re not going to pick any out in particular, but many reflect on the UK’s willing complicity in many of the abuses, with the Labour government of Tony Blair having allowed Prestwick Airport to be used as a stop-off for torture flights.

rendition

There’s also a rather telling article in the Scotsman.

cmurray

The piece reports on the possible SNP candidacy at the 2015 election of outspoken blogger and former British ambassador Craig Murray. Our alert readers will probably have already noticed the noteworthy aspect of the story from the picture above, but it’s handily repeated in the main text.

“[Mr Murray] was withdrawn as the UK ambassador to Uzbekistan in 2004 after the Foreign Office became frustrated with his vociferous criticism of human rights abuses in the former Soviet country.”

2004, of course, was right in the middle of Labour’s 13-year period of government. And why was a Labour UK government angrily sacking its ambassadors? Because they were being TOO CRITICAL of human rights abuses (a thing we weren’t aware there was a limit on), at the same time the UK government was bending over backwards to help the Americans barbarically torture innocent civilians, sometimes to death.

To be honest, we don’t think we’ve got much to add to that.

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    446 to “The inconvenient truths”

    1. Desimond says:

      Best of luck to Craig!
      A Politician with a conscience and guts…more please!

    2. Natasha says:

      I sincerely hope Craig gets elected so that he can be a thorn in the side of Westminster. We need people like him with a conscience and a voice.

    3. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Not just Prestwick, the rendition flights also used Wick and (i think) Inverness, from my recollection for refuelling

    4. Walter Scott says:

      Labour showed their NeoCon credentials from the outset. Let’s hope some of our Media will grill Jim Murphy on this appalling episow during Labour’s time in government. Will any of them go rooting around in Murphy’s laundry?

    5. Ellie Robot says:

      Any chance of a proper enquiry into the UK ‘s role in ‘extraordinary rendition’ I wonder? I doubt it, and even if there were, Murphy et al would deny everything and wash their hands.

      If there’s an aspect to being America’s lapdog, more shameful than simply being it: it will be the inability to retrospectively analyse our actions, and learn from that.

    6. Lesely-Anne says:

      Interestingly this story of Human Rights abuse by the U.S.A. gladly assisted by Blair and his government comes AFTER Save the Children give the warmonger himself some award for his greatness around the world! Hmm … 😉

    7. gillie says:

      Labour has blood on its hands and it will never wash off.

    8. Ericmac says:

      Rendition was part of the torture. Sitting on the floor, strapped in together, sometimes with family, hooded, an indeterminate destination and hours of noisy flight, often during the night.

      Did they get breaks for toilet and refreshments?

    9. Morag says:

      I’ve said before that I worry that Craig Murray is a loose cannon who would struggle to work in a team with the SNP group. Also that his past leaves him wide open to damaging smears. It doesn’t really matter whether that stuff it true or not, it was used to smear him before, very effectively, and it can be trotted out to do the same job again. So the idea of him as a candidate isn’t one I particularly welcome.

      Nevertheless his record on speaking out against human rights abuses is admirable, and in the present political climate his involvement is an interesting addition to the mix.

    10. themadmurph says:

      maybe someday the middle east peace envoy will face trial for war crimes, but I doubt it!

    11. themadmurph says:

      maybe someday the middle east peace envoy will face trial for war crimes, but I doubt it!

    12. jimnarlene says:

      The truth will out. Eventually.

    13. annie says:

      Had to stop following Craig Murray on twitter when, obviously angry about what was happening in Gaza, as we all are, he wrote in his blog that he really hoped that the first 30 Israel soldiers entering Gaza at that time were killed.

    14. Brian Powell says:

      Smearing Craig Murrray for highlighting human rights abuses will work well in left leaning Scotland! Though I’m sure Labour will continue to try, especially as they are implicated.

      It will be interesting to see how they try to do it. In his book, Murder in Samerkand, he lays out everything about himself, good and bad, so hard to find something to use against him.

      Ironic Labour demand Nicola Sturgeon stop him standing on the day the Senate report on rendition comes out.

    15. Seasick Dave says:

      Saddam Hussein wants to kill Tony Blair so he cooks up a proposition that Britain has WMD (ridiculous I know).

      He then destroys military and civilian targets in Britain resulting in the deaths of thousands of innocent British people.

      Depleted uranium is used and many horrendous birth defects occur with the probablity of many more in the coming years.

      After Britain has been destroyed, he sends in companies owned by his pals to rebuild the country, thus ensuring massive profits.

      To top it off he takes control off North Sea assets and repatriates the profits.

      Iraqi mercenary forces patrol the streets of Britain killing any resistance put up by insurgents.

      Any insurgent deemed to be acting against the Iraqi nation is detained in a foreign country and tortured whether guilty or not.

      Eventually, Tony Blair is rounded up and executed.

      The rest is history.

    16. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      the rotten corrupt london media will trot out the same smears as before and probably new ones but i welcome a man like craig murray representing the snp and therefore me. no lying down to the corrupt media.

    17. Morag says:

      He’s also on YouTube declaring that anyone who voted No is morally repugnant or something like that. It’s a bloody field day for the anti-SNP press, and I don’t look forward to it.

      He’s more fiskable than the two characters Stu took to the cleaners the other day, and the evidence is all there. If he was standing for a unionist party, I’d fully expect to see a WoS article filleting him. Unfortunately.

    18. Morag says:

      That last post of mine was a follow-up to what Annie said.

    19. velofello says:

      Following Iraq, and his other ventures Mr Blair undertook a period of atonement, so I suppose that wipes his slate clean – in the view of whoever holds the atonement duster.

    20. Les Wilson says:

      Craig Murray would be excellent in Westminster, he says it as it is and is very dedicated to Indy according to his articles.
      I wish him every success.

      He highlighted many human right abuses and still rails against it.
      I hope we get him in there.

    21. Morag says:

      I went to a forum I used to frequent to see what they were saying about the torture revelations. I found a thread started by an English chap I used to be on good terms with until he turned into a sneering belittling Britnat during the referendum campaign. That behaviour on the part of a number of forum regulars is partly what drove me away from the place.

      Anyway, his thread was rightly condemnatory of the US behaviour, and then someone (again rightly) brought up the subject of Blair’s complicity. The English poster agreed entirely and posted a very bitter rant about how far up the USA’s arse the UK government is and was located.

      I’m afraid I then broke cover and pointed out the irony of that position, given that Scotland’s attempt to cut ourselves free of all that had met with ridicule and opposition from him. Sometimes, people are just annoying.

    22. Desimond says:

      Morag

      Loose cannon…. the idea of him as a candidate isn’t one I particularly welcome.

      Youre entitled to your opinion but I think I would rather have someone who has voiced his own opinion like Craig rather than someone like Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh who seems to have been happy to voice any opinion that would help secure a nomination for any of the parties that shes been a member of so far.

      I recall a few weeks ago you saying you were willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, loose cannon Craig should be given the same.

    23. msean says:

      Giving up a great career to blow the whistle on this stuff,sounds like just the kind of guy that Westminster needs but doesn’t want. Good luck to him on election night.

    24. Grouse Beater says:

      Considering the US has, since the 20th century, engaged in rescuing Nazi criminals from justice, assassinations, counter-insurgency, destabalising economies, terrorist activity, funding dictators, and removing democratically elected socialist governments, learning they do torture too seems a bit of an anti-climax. Then again, some will be surprise dear old Blighty joined in the patriotic fun. If so, they are naive in the extreme.

      The shame is, No voters seemed not to take into account that ‘our lot,’ Labour, allowed Prestwick used as a stop-over for rendition and transport to torture camps.

    25. David says:

      Thanks for that ‘mirror-view’ of what happened, Seasick Dave. It is chilling to think of what our side, the supposed ‘good guys’, really did.

    26. Craig Murray says:

      Annie,

      I don’t think I exactly said that. I do indeed believe the Palestinians have a right to resist when the Israelis invade killing hundreds of women and children. I do not apologise for that view. I do not approve of Palestinian attacks on civilians, rockets, bombs etc. But I do think you have a right to shoot at soldiers and tanks who are shooting at you.

    27. Chic McGregor says:

      Seasick Dave

      Your reverse analogy falls down on at least one highly salient point, the UK does have WMD.

    28. Morag says:

      Desmond, the thing is that Tasmina doesn’t have a past that can be used to create lurid newspaper stories, beyond having once stood as a Tory candidate and (I believe) also having been a member of Labour at one time. That’s it. And it’s well-known. And she’s been an SNP candidate before, and not been a PR disaster.

      Craig Murray is on YouTube declaring that everyone who voted No is morally bankrupt, or something like that, and Annie has just mentioned a blog post of his expressing the hope that 30 Israeli soldiers should die. (There’s more in that blog that makes me pretty uncomfortable too.) This is the sort of thing that generates seriously embarrassing Daily Mail stories.

      Then there’s all the old history. It doesn’t matter what he said about the smears in a book, the usual suspects will just dredge it all back up again and get it back into print as “allegations” and so on, with the lawyers checking that the wording isn’t actually actionable.

      It worries me, it really does.

      And now another wrinkle. Someone in Labour has called on Nicola to distance herself from Craig Murray and reject him as an SNP candidate. My first reaction to that was, well if Labour don’t want him as a candidate, maybe that’s exactly what he should be. But then I remembered all the problems again, and wondered if it was all some sneaky double-bluff to bounce Nicols into adopting someone so eminently smearable as a candidate.

      Don’t know what’s going to happen, really.

    29. PictAtRandom says:

      Who said that Prestwick was fog-free?

      And can Craig cope with Absurdistan?

    30. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      Good to see Craig Murray being vindicated by the release of information by the U.S.

      I would love to see him using parliamentary privilege to name Jack Straw and Tony Blair as allegedly being involved in rendition and torture.

      Hopefully, he will get selected from one of the seats that are nominating him and then go on and win it. I think he will be an asset to the SNP in Westminster.

      So what if he is a bit of liability at times. The whole point is that we do not want Scottish MPs to be there for much longer – one parliament or two maximum.

      The more disruption the SNP cause there, the better, and Craig could certainly create some big waves.

    31. CameronB Brodie says:

      How many children were totured?

      Without ethics, free will and human liberty are not sustainable!

    32. Jim Mitchell says:

      nobody should be surprised at British complicity in the torture and killing of foreigners, after they were doing it long before the Americans and yes that included some proud Scots who were only to glad to lend a hand, but that’s what becomes of Empire building!

    33. Muscleguy says:

      The best thing about getting Craig into parliament will be that he will be able to say things under parliamentary privilege. I expect there are a whole slew of things he would like to say but dare not in public or print. For this reason alone we must get him into parliament.

    34. StevieMcB says:

      Jack McConnel turned a blind eye.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4623210.stm

    35. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

      @SeasickDave

      You forgot to mention that Saddam Hussein went on to be a peace envoy, solved the Scots Nationist problem, saved the UK and then went on to win the Nobel Peace prize.

      True story – heard it on The BBC.
      🙂

    36. CameronB Brodie says:

      Inconsistent views? Oh the irony.

    37. Grouse Beater says:

      Please don’t reduce this topic to a provincial personality attack: why individuals should conform ‘for the sake of the party.’ Discuss why the UK is happy to support USA torture camps, and why practitioners get off Scot free.

      Rigid conformity lies behind the excuse given by Bush and his pals – ‘torturers and those who gave the orders are patriotic.’

    38. velofello says:

      Morag,
      To secure employment in the diplomatic services Craig Murray would have needed to display the necessary diplomatic attributes and skills, and with age comes maturity so I doubt that he has lost such skills. However he also does appear to have an active conscience and that brought about his downfall from Her Majesty’s Diplomatic Service. Her Majesty being of course Queen Elizabeth and he, Craig Murray was uncomfortable carrying out the duties expected of him by her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth and spoke out. My kind of guy.

      The Queen’s view of him we will never know, presumably she endorsed his dismissal?

      I was once told by our company chairman to tell a client a pack of lies. I protested. “It’s only words” was the response.

      I prefer persons who speak out against injustice. even if sometimes they are lacking in diplomatic niceties.

    39. cirsium says:

      Did they get breaks for toilet and refreshments?

      @ Eric. The prisoners were put into nappies for the flight. There was, therefore, no need for toilet breaks. This also started the process of breaking the person. There was no need for refreshments. Depriving prisoners of food and water was one of the techniques used at the torture centres. This has two goals – it damages the person physically and, by underlining how helpless the prisoner is, it damages them psychologically.

      Reading excerpts of the Torture Report reminded me of sections from The Gulag Archipelago. I don’t recall reading that the NKVD in the 1930s and 1940s used hoods. I think that this technique was introduced by MI5/6(?) in Northern Ireland in the early 70s.

    40. Dal Riata says:

      @Morag

      Christ almighty, just shut up, will you, with your constant put-downs of Craig Murray. We’ve all read what you’ve got to say about him ad infinitum ad nauseam. Either make a case for your assertions or give it a rest. It’s already bloody well boring us all to death. Gie’s peace.

      You treat this blog like it’s all about you. Well here’s the thing – it’s not.

    41. Morag says:

      Please don’t reduce this topic to a provincial personality attack: why individuals should conform ‘for the sake of the party.’ Discuss why the UK is happy to support USA torture camps, and why practitioners get off Scot free.

      Rigid conformity lies behind the excuse given by Bush and his pals – ‘torturers and those who gave the orders are patriotic.’

      Fair point. The topic is bigger and more serious than one potential parliamentary candidate.

    42. craig murray says:

      I cannot believe I have ever tweeted anything about wanting thirty Israelis dead. Where? We hardly need the Labour Party if Morag and Annie carry on like this.

    43. Clootie says:

      Morag says:
      10 December, 2014 at 4:33 pm

      Have you ever met him? Have you actually spoken to him?

      I think he is a first class candidate and I remain baffled by your constant attacks.

      He has demonstrated remarkable courage by giving up a promising career to protect the rights of others.

      Jack Straw should be your target.

    44. woosie says:

      Craig Murray surely displays what we want to see in Scottish politicians; honesty and integrity. Unionist MPs in general are fighting for good jobs, not a just cause. His views on no-voters have credence; those I know voted depending on which football team they support, or, even more alarmingly, what their tabloid front page told them.

    45. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @StevieMcB

      “It follows a report by the SNP which it believes details US intelligence flights through Scottish airports.”

      Good article – the SNP were complaining about US rendition filghts long before Craig joined them.
      Who would have thunk it?
      He will just never fit in with the SNP – will he ?

    46. Grouse Beater says:

      Morag: Fair point.

      Thank you. 🙂

    47. Muscleguy says:

      @Morag

      I met Craig during the referendum campaign when he came to Dundee. He was on a punishing speaking tour for Yes at the time despite being pretty ill.

      He is one of us and a good guy. I’m with others, give it a rest.

    48. Morag says:

      Dal Riata, I’ve explained exactly what my reservations about Mr. Murray are. I think if you read what I posted, it’s all there (or most of it anyway). You’re free to disagree of course. I’m not insisting that there’s no merit in the opposing point of view, merely pointing out that this is a potential candidacy that is not exactly an unalloyed joy from the SNP point of view.

      And you know, Grouse Beater was right, this thread is about more important things.

    49. Morag says:

      Muscleguy, I’m not demanding that you stop supporting Craig Murray if that’s what you want to do. I don’t think it’s reasonable to demand that no criticism of him should be posted. There are two sides to this, not one.

    50. donnywho says:

      The idea that he is or might be a liability is valid only if you assume that the media will try and smear him. Firstly they have done it already, so what you see is what you get. Secondly if mi5 had anything better they would have used it. Thirdly do you think they wont twist,smear and plain lie about any new SNP MPs if they can? We have to get in their faces up close and personal, Mr brand is very good at it, interview the interviewer make them justify the position they are taking, show them up for the shoddy apparatchiks that they are. No quarter should be given anymore. We should stop playing by their rules.

    51. Lenny Hartley says:

      Ericmac

      I have heard 2nd hand admittedly that they were chained whilst inside the Aircraft and were going by the smell not allowed toilet breaks.

    52. annie says:

      @ Craig Murray – you didn’t tweet it, you tweeted link to blog which I read, have family in Israel so maybe a bit sensitive. Perhaps you edited blog, not trying to stir things up we all say things in heat of moment.

    53. art1001 says:

      Something about this Morag person that both (a) bores me and (b) does not quite ring true – to me anyway. Craig Murray I endorse wholeheartedly.

    54. StevieMcB says:

      Craig on ET now!

    55. StevieMcB says:

      sorry RT

    56. BrianW says:

      Most self appointed god like political figures get rid of those who speak out and challenge their opinion/rule. Strange how they are all very unsavory characters: Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mugabe, Saddam Hussein..

      Blair wouldn’t look out of place on that list..would he?

    57. Chic McGregor says:

      It must be remembered that Craig Murray has effectively been able to act as a free agent since leaving the diplomatic service and no doubt one who relished that freedom.

      But is it really possible to believe that someone could rise to high office in the diplomatic service, of all things, without also having a facility for discretion?

      I don’t think we can compare someone’s views from a period with no collective responsibility, to those espoused when working under such constraints. Nor do I think we can presume that should he volunteer to once put himself in a position where collective responsibility comes into play once more, that he would be incapable of working within such a framework.

      Of course, he must reserve the right to whistle blow should some heinous injustice manifest itself, but I think, and hope the rest of you do too, that such a manifestation by a Scottish Government would be a highly unlikely occurrence.

      But if it ever were to, I for one would welcome the presence of Craig Murray or someone like him.

    58. Bob Sinclair says:

      Let’s not turn this into another ‘he said / she said’ thread. The last time that happened it began to resemble a primary school playground.

    59. Devorgilla says:

      Frankly I’m past caring what the Daily Mail readership thinks. They are unsaveable. Agree that Craig needs to be more conciliatory to the middle ground of soft Noes though. Calling all Noes thick and evil won’t win any converts. A lot of vulnerable people with little access to the internet were terrorised. Forgive them.

      Murray v Murph on arms control and rendition would be a very interesting.

    60. Croompenstein says:

      The Brits wrote the book on torture they would let the Americans piss in public if it pleased them, as for Prestwick they have sullied our shores with their evil and they must be brought to justice.

    61. fred blogger says:

      i to wish graig murray well, for sticking his neck out and speaking out against torture and injustice.
      torture is done to silence and control it’s victim’s.
      speaking up for the voiceless is always the right thing to do.
      from whence come’s recovery.

    62. EphemeralDeception says:

      Craig Murray like everyone is imperfect however he has stood up against the state pretty much on his own and at serious risk to his own life. The UK state has little they can do that they they would not already have done. Like Salmond and Sturgeon he cannot put a foot wrong though from now on, so needs to be temporate, 100% factually accurate and very careful what he puts in his blog.

      Unfortunately he cannot attempt suing Jack Straw as he is above the law in his actions as a uk minister unlike actions as a member of the public.

      There is precedent for this in the people of Diego Garcia V UK Gov. Even though the UK lost its case in court the UK just bounced it to the Lords to use an order in court to get it overturned. The exact same thing would happen here imo.

      The UK Gov brushed under the carpet the ethnic cleansing of its owns citizen which is at least as serious or more so than these torture confirmations. In fact is is all linked as the people were removed to make way for a US air base that has participate din the extraordinary rendition of many torture victims.

      It is all one sorry, ‘repugnant’ and nefarious mess. I am fully agreed with Craig that the UK State is a source of evil in the world today and is essentially a rogues state and indeed fits the definition very well:
      “being ruled by authoritarian regimes that severely restrict human rights, sponsor terrorism, and seek to proliferate weapons of mass destruction”. They should have that on signs in all entry points into Scotland to highlight what UK membership means!

    63. Mealer says:

      Has Craig Murray been selected? He might be a loose canon but his other attributes might make up for it.Let the MSM smear away.If it’s not him it will most certainly be some other SNP candidate.Mr Murray is fit to deal with it.

    64. Murray McCallum says:

      I would welcome Craig Murray as a MSP or MP.

      He is, for me, pretty much the polar opposite of the machine politicians who have destroyed public trust in the UK political system.

      Good luck Craig.

    65. Does anyone know why the US Government has released these reports about its complicity in torture when surely they could have found reasons to keep them secret ?

    66. keaton says:

      Does anyone have a link to this tweet about the Israeli invasion? Since it’s generally considered fair game to fire on invading soldiers, I would have thought that merely wishing for the soldiers to die should be rather uncontroversial. It would be helpful to see exactly how this was worded.

    67. Muscleguy says:

      @Ephemeral Deception

      Well the Smith Commission oh so generously recommended that full control over road signs should be devolved. So we could do so. Also doesn’t the Scottish State now own Prestwick? Surely a small display in the departure lounge would not be amiss.

    68. keaton says:

      Has Craig Murray been selected?

      Nope.

    69. Muscleguy says:

      @Morag

      I note you ignored my point about Craig being one of us. If post the referendum we are going to descend to internecine sniping, what was it all for? I thought we wanted a different sort of politics?

    70. YESGUY says:

      Strong stuff there Stu

      Good luck to Craig too. fantastic news.

      I was pretty much down after the ref result but since then more and more folk are joining the cause. Everyday since has just got better. Especially watching the Labour vote fall apart. Had hoped To see others like Rob Mcalpine and lesley Riddoch under the SNP banner. Who know, every days a good day. Tommy Sheridan would be a nice one. We need loud voices.

      The more we find out about this Union the worse it seems .

      Anyone for independence ? 🙂

    71. Findlay Farquaharson says:

      back craig murray and dont give in to london media lies.

    72. Dal Riata says:

      @Morag

      “… merely pointing out that this is a potential candidacy that is not exactly an unalloyed joy from the SNP point of view.”

      Says who? Oh, that’s right, you do. How do you know that [it] “is not exactly an unalloyed joy from the SNP point of view”? Do you have the First Minister’s ear? Are you a sitting SNP MSP, perhaps?… No? So what gives you the right to be judge, jury and executioner on whether Craig Murray should be accepted as a candidate or not?

      Upthread you say Murray is “eminently smearable”. Funny that, because you are the one who does all the ’eminent smearing’ of him on this blog.

      We get that you have some as-yet-fully-unexplained bee in you bonnet about Craig Murray; you’ve told us enough times to the extent that I, and others, feel forced to respond by asking, nay, telling you to give it a rest.

      Your constant attacks on Craig Murray don’t do you, this site, or the many who believe we need people like Murray fighting our corner, any favours.

      Why don’t you start up your own blog online? There, *you* get to set the rules and control the moderation. Also, you can rant away about Murray, or anyone else, at your leisure. But on *this* blog your obvious vendetta/agenda against Murray is tedious in the extreme.

    73. Jim McIntosh says:

      @donnywho

      ” interview the interviewer make them justify the position they are taking, show them up for the shoddy apparatchiks that they are. No quarter should be given anymore. We should stop playing by their rules.”

      Totally agree, I’m getting quite sick of commentators on here telling us we always have to be polite and just take the crap they keep throwing at us. We tried that during the referendum and we lost.

      Sometimes that also means telling it like it is to people who voted NO.

      At the moment the establishment isn’t frightened of us, they’re laughing at us. We have to change that.

    74. MajorBloodnok says:

      Am currently in Karakalpakstan and there were two topics of conversation at dinner last night: Craig Murray and Scottish independence.

      I was disappointed because they did not appear to have the opportunity to read Craig’s book, and they were disappointed because I’d promised to wear my kilt this time but only if Yes won…

      Westminster needs a bloody shake up and Craig Murray MP might be one of those capable of doing that.

    75. Robert Kerr says:

      @ Dal Riata

      I agree,

      Perhaps Craig Murray knows more about the Lockerbie Bombing and the trial of the “Bomber” than “Morag” does?

      Just saying.

    76. Gallowglass says:

      @Dal Riata

      In fairness, it isn’t your blog to vet either.

    77. Harry McAye says:

      I’m glad Craig Murray is standing but there can surely be little doubt that our enemies will have a field day on him. I hope he stands his ground and doesn’t feel the need to apologise for anything he has said, as I’m sure he won’t.

    78. Paula Rose says:

      Will there be any SNP candidate that the UKaynats won’t attempt to smear and vilify?

    79. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      Morag, if the unionist press manage to paint someone who gives away part of his salary to charity as a sybaritic trougher who tried to steal a pair of breeks, I’m sure Craig will be an easy target.

      So what? Who cares what Daily Mail readers think?

    80. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Rev has often pointed out that well under 1% of WOS readers ever comment.

      If I’m being moved to write this then there must be many other regular commenters (let alone readers, some of whom are ‘new’) who feel likewise.

      I’m utterly sick of Morag smearing Craig Murray. The last time I crossed swords with her on this she accused me of being ‘thought-police’ and trying to shut her up.

      The issue here is a simple one – Morag has NOT explained what her beef with Murray is, despite him asking her personally on more than one occasion. And Morag’s evasiveness is just making things worse.

      The innocent reader dropping by here could be forgiven for thinking that Craig Murray has some unspeakable secrets which Morag dare not detail. Further, she implies that the SNP is twitchy about his possible candidacy, and does so in terms which suggest she has some authority in the matter.

      My own opinion of Craig Murray is completely irrelevant, as is my opinion of Morag, but my opinion on this constant smearing and innuendo is one which I suspect many share: it has become highly personal, it is out of order, and it has to stop.

    81. Skip_NC says:

      Scott Finlayson, the report was released by the Senate Intelligence Committee, chaired by Diane Feinstein, a Democrat on the left of the party. Had it been up to Congress and the Executive Branch as a whole, I think we would have seen a watered-down collection of waffle. The Separation of Powers doctrine has its uses!

      When I saw that Sen. Feinstein was the one who released the report, I was sceptical. However, my scepticism disappeared when I saw that Sen. McCain had welcomed it. That man knows a thing or two about torture.

    82. Clootie says:

      @Morag

      Once again we get the vague “It’s there to see”, “I posted it in the past”

      You have never posted a single shred of evidence to support your rants in my view. It is you who has detracted from the main article once again.

      I’ve met him, I’ve spoken to him and I have read his blog and I still remain baffled by your comments.

    83. Bob Mack says:

      Yesterdays controversy can often turn into tomorrows accepted wisdom. .Read Mandela

    84. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      😉

    85. Morag says:

      Many of Craig Murray’s fans have come out and declared that they’d be very pleased to see him as an MP. I haven’t for a second denied their right to hold and express that view.

      And yet once again my articulation of an opposing position is met with personal abuse and demands that I be silenced. It’s not pretty, guys. Just because someone is on our side doesn’t automatically make him a plaster saint, or set him above criticism.

    86. Morag says:

      Clootie, I have explained my reasons for being concerned about the prospect of Mr. Murray as an SNP candidate right here in this thread. If you believe that his other sterling qualities counterbalance this then that’s a reasonable position to take, but please stop this claim that I haven’t explained my position.

    87. Dr Jim says:

      I don’t know Mr Craig Murray at all, nor do i know the intimate details of his life or for that matter his secret personal feelings on anything, but what i do know is i tend towards trusting the people i elected to run my country inasmuch as if Mr Murray is asked to stand and has agreed the party’s position on policy, if they’re happy then i’m happy and no amount of twisted behaviour from the odd individual will amount to anything other than trolling for it’s own sake and signifies nothing other than a miserable human beings attempt at attention seeking…I am Alex Salmond…

    88. Hagbard Celine says:

      Rats in a sack.

      Keep going, guys.

    89. Morag says:

      You know what? Why don’t we park this until Craig Muray has actually passed the vetting process to become an approved SNP candidate?

    90. Skip_NC says:

      I am not given to believing everything I read in the Scotsman, but the article did say that Mr Murray is going through the vetting process at the moment. This is an internal party matter, where the SNP will decide if they want an individual to seek adoption as the prospective parliamentary candidate in any constituency. If he survives vetting, he is free to seek adoption in any constituency.

      As this is an internal SNP matter at the moment, and as many visitors to this site are not SNP members (including the Rev., I believe) I have to question whether this discussion around Mr Murray serves any useful purpose.

    91. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’d read some of the stuff on Craig Murray’s blog, before I saw him ‘live’ at the Steps Theatre in Dundee.

      I subsequently had a short blether with him at ‘Hope Over Fear’ in George Square on 12th October.

      Personally, I think he’s the calibre of MP we NEED to send down to Westminster next year, to shake it to its foundations.

      Jiss sayin’ like, iye?

    92. Morag says:

      That was an interesting piece of simultaneous posting!

    93. Alan Mackintosh says:

      @ keaton, it was first mentioned by annie way up-thread, and then when queried by Craig, annie responded by saying not a tweet but a link to a blog. Didnt say whether it was Craigs blog though and no link was given.

      Annie did say she had family in Israel and was upset. I would say having any family in Gaza would be more worrying.

      Re Craig/Morag, it is becoming tiresome. Morag was asked to elaborate on the issue weeks ago but never did. As the saying goes put up or shut up.

    94. MajorBloodnok says:

      No one is trying to silence you Morag (except perhaps when you’re playing the recorder and everyone in the entire orchestra is a quarter-tone flat, except you).

      People are just exasperated that every time Craig Murray is mentioned here, or elsewhere, you just attack him. It’s rather disturbing and perplexing for the rest of us…

    95. keaton says:

      Always nice to see posters telling other posters to shut up and go away (on someone else’s blog).

      Anyway, it seems to me that the fact we know of the dirt that’s already been thrown at CM is a point in his favour as a candidate. If the worst the state could accuse him of when he was blowing the whistle on their complicity in torturing people to death was being drunk at work, he strikes me as being an extraordinarily clean candidate.

    96. keaton says:

      @Alan Mackintosh
      Yeah, I saw that. I can’t find the post in question by Googling CM’s blog, so if anyone has a link I’d be grateful.

    97. Gary45% says:

      WooHoo, Back in the land of the internet, the old computer gave up about 4 weeks ago just after I posted about the 30 pieces of silver for the BBC.
      We managed to hand them into the reception at Pacific Quay.”we had hoped to get further into the building but it gave the reception staff a laugh”.
      I think people should give Mr Murray a chance, he will have plenty of evidence on the Westmonster parties.
      On a really serious note have you seen the price of Curlywurlys.
      Gary.
      ps.trying toget togrips with 8.1 on a lap top ahhhhhh
      xp rules

    98. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Morag.

      You did mention in the past that you saw Craig Murray as a ‘loose cannon’.

      Perchance it’s better to be behind a loose cannon than in front of the barrel of the gun, particularly as he seems to know where the bodies were buried.

      Yes, as someone up above has pointed out, parliamentary privilege may be Westminster’s downfall.

    99. Robert Roddick says:

      All the best Craig and make sure you check your brakes before driving off !

    100. fred blogger says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9Yd8j9eRPQ mr paton of indyref weekly.
      just in not seen it all yet.

    101. SwamiBackverandah says:

      Hey Stu
      Someone will be along shortly accusing you of using the mention of Craig Murray’s potential candidature for the SNP as clickbait. 😉

    102. Grouse Beater says:

      Hoss MacIntosh:
      the SNP were complaining about US rendition flights long before Craig joined them.

      I believe that’s correct, though I stand to be corrected myself, not that the British establishment and their secret police would give a damn what the SNP thought.

      Now we send drones – war at a ‘safe’ distance.

      As we decide which store to buy our festive fare, imagine being a poor, fearful ‘ethnic’ living in a village waiting for the deaded noise of that drone overhead – while we over turkey watch yet another documentary about life in the blitz, ‘doodlebugs’ overhead.

      One law for us, another for non-Anglos.

      When Bush, Chaney, and Rumsfeld flung ‘shock and awe’ at the innocents in Iraq he swatted a hornet’s nest. Those three should be prosecuted for torture, a war crime. Blair too.

      We’re responsible for the rise of ISIS and its murderous caliphate now in control of swathes of Syria and Iraq – an opinion that comes not from me, (though I agree with it) but from a former CIA operative and analyst, Graham Fuller.

      When I voted Yes for self-determination I hoped an ideal achieved in that act was a country that would never stain its reputation with illegal wars, torture, and rendition.

      In that issue who would want to be one of the crowd?

    103. Morag says:

      Major, I’ll have you know I have an excellent ear! They were only trying to silence me because I was half a bar behind the other parts. And that’s my story and I’m sticking to it and the conductor will back me up.

      I thought perhaps it would help if I explained yet again why I’m concerned about Mr. Murray as a potential SNP candidate. I did that, but all I’m getting are repeated accusations that I haven’t explained, and calls to shut up. I’m not demanding that Mr. Murray’s fans should stop going on about how utterly wonderful he is, and it would be nice if they would return the favour.

      However, as I said, it’s all moot unless he actually passes the vetting process as an approved candidate. If he does, I might reconsider to some extent.

    104. Fiona says:

      We are none of us perfect. Morag is often thoughtful and instructive but she does take irrational dislikes to folk, sometimes over things that are none of her business. And she is sometimes very vocal about it. Seriously, ignore it. She won’t stop.

    105. Morag says:

      And right now I’m with Grouse Beater. This is about more than one controversial wannabe candidate.

      My problem is that the whole torture thing is just too ghastly to want to talk about. It’s not even as if it’s news, or a surprise. We all knew what these flights refuelling at Prestwick were for. That’s one of the reasons we wanted a Yes vote.

      It’s all bloody depressing.

    106. Clootie says:

      keaton says:
      10 December, 2014 at 7:40 pm

      It is quite different asking for evidence to justify a character assasination than asking them to shut up.

      Craig will require nomination from 2 branches OR 10 members of the CA etc
      they will look at:
      Outstanding work touring the country for YES.
      A prominent YES blog
      Excellent education
      An incredible Diplomatic background
      An incredible network in London
      Outstanding Public Speaking skills
      Proven integrity (torture/rendition campaign)
      and so on.

      If someone has FACTS that counter the above then I’m willing to listen. I always repect the opinion of others but I prefer it to be based on some relevent information.

      If Craig was being proposed at a CA meeting what would stop his nomination.

    107. liz says:

      As a few people have pointed out the MSM/BBC will smear any SNP or other Yes party member even if there is nothing there.

      Don’t forget the outrage at those SNP councillors burning one sheet of the Smith report -according to Dougie Alexander, it was the end of civilisation as we know it.

      So no doubt if Craig Murray passes the vetting process, they will try to smear him also.

      The fact that Craig has had experience of this type of thing in the past should make him be able to withstand the pressure if it comes to that.

      I was at the women’s SNP conference in Ayr and one of the ladies there was telling us how she used to be an MSP but hated the press intrusion into her life so asked not to be reselected and now works behind the scenes training canvassers.

      You need to have a thick skin to survive, I would welcome Craig as a candidate because of his experiences and inside knowledge of the diplomatic service, so good luck in the vetting process.

    108. CameronB Brodie says:

      Like many other opposition parties across Europe, the British Labour Party has been relatively quiet when it comes to matters of foreign policy. It is however important for social democratic parties to develop and defend clear and credible positions in foreign policy.

      http://www.fabians.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/FAB_One-Nation-in-the-World_WEB1.pdf

      Wait a minute. Doesn’t the Fabian society control British Labour, and weren’t they telling us we are Better Together?

      I smell something rather unpleasant, colloquially refereed to as SHITE.

    109. fred blogger says:

      being tortured is depressing, as all oppression is.

    110. Papadox says:

      I have great respect for Craig and follow his articles with interest. What I don’t forget is I am sure he knows much more than he can say. I’m sure he is still covered by the official secrets act. What a wonderful asset to our cause. Big thank you Craig.

    111. keaton says:

      It is quite different asking for evidence to justify a character assasination than asking them to shut up.

      True. But some posters here have quite explicitly told Morag to “shut up”. Just search the thread for the phrase.

    112. Morag says:

      And, I didn’t carry out a character assassination. I explained exactly why I was concerned that he was a prime target for adverse press coverage.

      However, I imagine that is something the SNP vetting committee will take into account, along with all the positive things that have been said about him on the thread. As I said, if he passes the vetting I may reconsider to some extent.

    113. Morag says:

      That’s the job of the vetting committee. To examine all the information they have, on both sides of the scales, and come to a decision. I see nothing but adulation of Mr. Murray on here. I personally come down on the other side of the scale. The vetting committee is however the official arbiter. If they decide the whole shebang is worth it, that’s a different story.

      I merely take exception to being repeatedly subjected to personal attacks and told to shut up, simply for expressing an opinion which is different from the one that liberally lards the thread.

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      Why do I always fail to spot the typos? Rage on this occasion.

    115. Morag says:

      It’s some sort of law of nature. Pro tip. Read the preview screen below the comment box, rather than reading what you just typed.

    116. Craig P says:

      We still live in a media climate where any SNP candidate with a colourful past will be slaughtered in the press, on that score Morag is right and I don’t see how that is controversial. Most folk (unlike many of us) haven’t read the Catholic Orangemen of Togo or Murder in Samarkand and heard the story from the source himself.

      I also don’t think Craig would be easily biddable on principles or outspokenness and might give the SNP leadership headaches on that score.

      On the other hand – do we want a parliament full of party drones? And if Craig went to Westminster he certainly wouldn’t miss the target and hit the wall. He is likely to be an extremely hard working campaigner and if we do manage to elect 30 MPs, he would be one of the standouts.

    117. CameronB Brodie says:

      The red mist was blinding.

    118. bowanarrow says:

      Mr. Murray, I saw a video of you on YouTube and would like to thank you and to wish you the very best if you accept the candidacy. I have great admiration for you courage and look forward to your help in and for Scotland.

      Merry Christmas. 🙂

    119. bunter says:

      Mon the Craig Murray. Go for it mate!

    120. Tom B says:

      As an infrequent poster but regular reader, I too have found Morag’s constant attacks on Craig Murray, spanning at least the last six months, possibly longer, quite disturbing. I doubt he is perfect, who is, except the prudish blessed Morag. I disagree with Murray on a number of issues – his almost instinctive disdain for Vladimir Putin is painful to someone who sees Putin as standing up to the US neo-con unipolar world agenda – and disagreed mildly with him on something else, so insignificant I’ve forgotten what it is. I wouldn’t say he is as far to the left of politics as I would like him to be, he stands almost alone on the untended middle ground, he’s certainly not doctrinaire, more contrarian, but I find nothing too objectionable in his outlook and he is receptive to others views, might even come around with a little persuasion and empirical proofs.

      I have to say too I found Morag’s much vaunted Lockerbie book to be largely plagiarism of the late Paul Foote’s Private Eye Lockerbie report, and her persona a school-marmish channeling of Mary Whitehouse of the National Viewers and Listeners Whatever, killjoy moral guardians.

      As someone said above, the real issue is that Jack Straw, Tony Blair and most of the upper reaches of the Labour/Red Tory Party are in some cases fully active witting participants, and for a great many others, at least damningly complicit, in the most appalling human rights abuses possible.

      Craig Murray has been vindicated by the admissions of systematic torture emanating from the US. I’d have been proud for him to have stood in my local area against Michael Moore in the Borders. Kirkcaldy or wherever instead I hope will have that honour and be well-served by an able man of the world, who has been through a lot and come through stronger and wiser. It is really I think up to the SNP and pro-independence parties’ local people where he is hoping to stand, and I hope he makes a good impression and can win, the candidacy and the seat, his commitment to independence, fundamental human rights and social justice shines out.

    121. Tom B says:

      As an infrequent poster but regular reader, I too have found Morag’s constant attacks on Craig Murray, spanning at least the last six months, possibly longer, quite disturbing. I doubt he is perfect, who is, except the prudish blessed Morag. I disagree with Murray on a number of issues – his almost instinctive disdain for Vladimir Putin is painful to someone who sees Putin as standing up to the US neo-con unipolar world agenda – and disagreed mildly with him on something else, so insignificant I’ve forgotten what it is. I wouldn’t say he is as far to the left of politics as I would like him to be, he stands almost alone on the untended middle ground, he’s certainly not doctrinaire, more contrarian, but I find nothing too objectionable in his outlook and he is receptive to others views, might even come around with a little persuasion and empirical proofs.

      I have to say too I found Morag’s much vaunted Lockerbie book to be largely plagiarism of the late Paul Foote’s Private Eye Lockerbie report, and her persona a school-marmish channeling of Mary Whitehouse of the National Viewers and Listeners Whatever, killjoy moral guardians.

      As someone said above, the real issue is that Jack Straw, Tony Blair and most of the upper reaches of the Labour/Red Tory Party are in some cases fully active witting participants, and for a great many others, at least damningly complicit, in the most appalling human rights abuses possible.

      Craig Murray has been vindicated by the admissions of systematic torture emanating from the US. I’d have been proud for him to have stood in my local area against Michael Moore in the Borders. Kirkcaldy or wherever instead I hope will have that honour and be well-served by an able man of the world, who has been through a lot and come through stronger and wiser. It is really I think up to the SNP and pro-independence parties’ local people where he is hoping to stand, and I hope he makes a good impression and can win, the candidacy and the seat, his commitment to independence, fundamental human rights and social justice shines out.

      Re-posting incase my comments (as usual) disappearing into a void, was just a blip, apologies if a double post results.

    122. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anyone curious about Craig Murray’s non-political activities – especially those which make make him ’eminently smearable’ – may find this of interest.

      It’s a link to Murray’s own blog, where he highlights a Der Spiegel article about him, and admits that ‘it is fair’.

      So – is this what all the fuss is about? Or is there more?

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/11/diplomacy_dicta/

    123. wullie says:

      Every SNP candidate for any position anywhere in the country will be considered a prime target, get used to it. The bbd and msm will lie on every occasion where they think they can damage Scotland. Craig in the HoC I like that, he will know where some skeletons are buried, this will bother some of the people in the establishment

    124. fred blogger says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      skimmed; graig is right pleasing master gets one nowhere, except in an even worse position.

    125. @Skip_NC
      Have just been reading about Senator Dianne Feinstein she certainly seems to be a person with high morals ,dare I say a honest politician .

    126. ronnie anderson says:

      @ CameronB ur tryin tae cash in to ma claim to fame

      Why do I always fail to spot the typos?

      Its the eyes failing tae see, or in ma case seeing but brain disconnect. & forgetting theres a edit box,you,ve seen some of ma posts ha ha dont get stressed oot Cameron.Its only words & thats no a que fur a song lol.

    127. sinky says:

      Good article on uk rendition involvement by derek bateman on newsnet scotland complete with reference to jim murphy,s silence over labour,s gadaffi links

    128. Grouse Beater says:

      “I will never apologise for the United States … I don’t care what the facts are … I’m not an apologise-for-America sort of guy.”
      President Bush

    129. crisiscult says:

      I’ve watched quite a few speeches by Craig Murray and read his blog a few times, and must say I’m an admirer. I didn’t exactly work for the Embassy, but was working with them between 2005 and 2009 and socialised with several Embassy staff, kind of through accident as can happen in some countries.

      Anyway, when I found out about the Uzbekistan revelations around end of 2005 or beginning of 2006, and raised it with my bar buddies I was quite amused to find a kind of closing of ranks of embassy staff. Some ad hominem rumour type stuff that was presumably supposed to negate or at least water down the message. I’ve no idea if these people really believed what they were saying, but they may well have done; these were youngish folk – children of 70s or even 80s – who could say with a straight face in a pub how proud they were of the British empire, and throwing in a kind of ‘and you Scots did a great job too you know’ line to make me feel part of things.

    130. Clootie says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      10 December, 2014 at 8:56 pm

      Thanks for the link Ian – I see nothing negative there. He is his own man and just what we need.

    131. cearc says:

      Grousebeater 7.59,

      ‘…living in a village waiting for the deaded noise of that drone overhead’..

      Terrifying. I was putting Jehad Saftawi’s livestream on during that last Gaza attack and that noise really gets into you. Even safe on my wee cnoc thousands of miles away the tension grew into fear and when the feed went down I could still hear them.

    132. Morag says:

      “I will never apologise for the United States … I don’t care what the facts are … I’m not an apologise-for-America sort of guy.”
      President Bush

      Was that about the Vincennes shooting down IR655? The lack of apology for that one had some pretty dire and far-reaching consequences, if we believe common interpretations of what happened next.

    133. Aspen says:

      I think Morag is upset because she has not been asked to stand!

    134. Thepnr says:

      I can’t help but like Craig Murray, he is intelligent and above all principled. No surprise then that he pissed off his establishment masters.

      He will say what he thinks and doesn’t care who he upsets even if it may prove detrimental to his heealth or wealth.

      Reminds me of the Rev and Alex Salmond. I hope he is selected and wins a seat. We could use 30 more like him who are willing to stare in the eyes of those that will use us.

      Look at the Labour candidates recently highlighted here on Wings, who would you rather have in your corner representing YOU?

    135. Paula Rose says:

      It’s an inconvenient truth that some of us do not notice typos when we comment – but fortunately we have a head girl who will currect us when she’s knot too busy.

    136. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      On thread…

      John Finnie has raised the issue in Parliament and the Lord Advocate has asked Police Scotland to investigate these flights further in light of the U.S. senate report. This could lead to criminal charges in Scotland.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-30414775

      Can we extradite Jack Straw and Tony Blair?

    137. yerkitbreeks says:

      It strikes me that one or two people on this thread need to get out a bit more – how about having a break and come back refreshed after the New Year.

    138. CameronB Brodie says:

      ronnie anderson
      I’m not worthy. 🙂

    139. Murray McCallum says:

      Lucky we have the findings of the Chilcot inquiry published in full detail.

      Its timely release after the inquiry concluded in Feb’11 is a beacon for UK-OK transparent democracy and the rule of law.

    140. Paula Rose says:

      Yerkitbreeks – have you been outdoors today!!!

    141. CRAIGthePICT says:

      Simply wanted to add my unequivocal support of Craig Murray to this thread. A most welcome addition.

      Playing Mr. Nice guy (partly) lost us the indie ref. Round 2, gloves off, don’t pull the punches and get ripped in about them.

    142. Lesley-Anne says:

      Hoss Mackintosh says:

      On thread…

      John Finnie has raised the issue in Parliament and the Lord Advocate has asked Police Scotland to investigate these flights further in light of the U.S. senate report. This could lead to criminal charges in Scotland.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-30414775

      Can we extradite Jack Straw and Tony Blair?

      Ya wee dancer!

      I think this news falls under the heading of “There is a GAWD” Hoss! 😉

    143. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Sometimes, I am happy enough not to post on Wings, less infrequently than before.

    144. Schrödinger's cat says:

      Good luck Craig

    145. SquareHaggis says:

      @Sinky,

      That may explain why Dereks blog was knocked out most of the day.
      Timely reminder thanx.

    146. Taranaich says:

      This is horrendous. I truly wish I could be surprised at the admissions, but I think media culture has been conditioning us to prepare for it. 24 showed US government employees torturing, interrogating and displaying grotesque misuse of power, and justified it in a narrative context by having it prevent greater atrocities. Zero Dark Thirty falsely presented “evidence” extracted from torture as being crucial in the slaying of Osama Bin Laden. All these Law & Order and CSI spinoffs have methods you could describe as torture yielding effective results.

      The paranoid cynic in me wonders if this horrifying tendency in media to portray torture as effective is intentional, to create an entirely false ambiguity. It falsely implies that torture is remotely reliable as a method of extracting evidence. And so, with this information, we have to ask not only if our journalistic media, but our creative media has been compromised.

    147. Marcia says:

      The National’s front page tomorrow;

      https://twitter.com/ScotNational

    148. Capella says:

      I’ve just skimmed through the comments so apologies if I missed something. Here is the link to the talk Craig gave at St Andrews where he says that you can’t vote NO and be a moral person (after hearing what he has to say about the UK state).
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIQ8VVn8AJA
      I agree. I hope Craig wins his seat and gets into Westminster to kick up a storm! Somebody has to.

    149. CameronB Brodie says:

      cearc
      Empirical medical research suggests that viewing such violence has a detrimental psychological impact on the viewer. It beats them down and basically terrorises them. I think this is why news reports of such violence are so popular with state broadcasters, such as the BBC.

    150. Grouse Beater says:

      Was that about the Vincennes shooting down IR655?

      It was. I see he’s made a similar response to the release of the Torture report.

      Those of a like-mind feel that, while the inquiry was necessary, making public its findings most definitely is not, for it will succour to our (USA) enemies.

      Which is to say, what we do in your name we do in secret, so that you do not know exactly what we do in your name.

      The UK’s involvement, names, places, times, et cetera, have been redacted.

    151. Graeme Doig says:

      Morag

      I think i will also need to become involved in the ‘groupthink’ and add to the ‘lard’ of the thread by stating that i will be delighted if Mr Murray is successfully vetted and selected to stand.

      I think more of the population than you imagine would respect a ‘loose cannon’ who had something to say about the corrupt establishment we are all fighting against.

    152. CameronB Brodie says:

      Taranaich
      Call me crazy if you like, but I suspect the almost constant police dramas and reality-TV style programs, the CSIs and all the rest, are aimed at conditioning us to accept a police state. One of the reasons I gave up TV.

    153. Grouse Beater says:

      I’ve always been of the view authority should be questioned, a keystone of the democratic process, but especially authority figures who ask for more power, and yes, I do understand how that applies to the SNP and independence. But then, Scotland’s authority is severely limited and curtailed.

      There’s Milgram’s now famous experiment of giving obedience to authority.

      We prefer to be part of a group even when it runs counter to our principles, conflicting with our conscience.

      Volunteers gave electric shocks to an unseen patient to help with the patient’s ‘learning.’ The patient sitting hidden behind a screen, an actor, feigns pain, screaming, increasing his cries in volume and banging on the wall each time the volunteer is instructed by the ‘medical consultant’ to increase the wattage.

      Only a few volunteers refused to do it after one or no turns of the dial. Those are people I admire, the one’s who say ‘enough’ when they realise the consequences of their actions. They tend to be marked out as rebels, or mavericks.

      Some volunteers complained, but thinking it was doing the ‘patient’ good, and intent on pleasing the consultant, continued to follow the consultant’s dire instruction.

      Hence, in times of war, madness is justified with the ‘I was following orders’ defence.

      (The ‘consultant’ has another name I can’t remember – but you get the gist.)

    154. CameronB Brodie says:

      Lard – The Power of Lard
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0htZ7ocCk-Q

    155. Paula Rose says:

      An inconvenient truth – I’ve been looking at some early Wings threads – the Rev certainly gave short shift to many, can I please ask that we all agree to differ on some topics? I have been at many Wings events – even with Ronnie Anderson and Thepnr’s skills – it’s still a case of herding cats.

      We are all able to be amicable – if not go to quarantine and bludgeon it out, it’s to the left at the bottom of Off topic which is listed under zany comic relief.

      An inconvenient truth – not everyone is in the same herd.

    156. Ian Brotherhood says:

      In 2004 we (Ayrshire SSP) went into Prestwick Airport, with loudhailer and leaflets alerting the airport’s users to the likelihood that rendition (a little-known neologism at the time) was being conducted via the premises.

      We were booted out (i.e. ‘asked to leave’) and tried to deliver our message from the nearest ‘public’ pavement, approximately 50 yards from the main passenger entrance.

      We went back a couple of weeks later and insisted they accept a letter of protest – no-one would touch it, but eventually, after being assured she would not be photographed, a sympathetic member of staff accepted it over a high desk. Local press? Not interested. National press? Three guesses…

      They knew. Straw. Blair. Ingram. Reid. Des Browne. Robertson. Lidl. If one knew? They all did…‘we are fam-i-leeeee!’.

      A lifelong pox on each and every one of them for what they did then, and are continuing to support right now.

    157. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Hoss Mackintosh
      @ Lesley Anne
      I would,nt hold my breath on Police Scotland making anyheadway,just another expensive enquiry.

      Since the aircraft were US & landed in US base in England prior to landing in Scotland. I doupt very much if anyone was allowed to view the inside of the plane,no evidence no case.

    158. Bob Mack says:

      This sadly is more than a mere publicity coup, and I think we all know that the U.K., more specifically Mr Blair was jumping through hoops to impress the Americans. He sent our men to war ill prepared in terms of equipment, infected with neurological toxins in the shape of inoculations, in a mission which ultimately has destabilised the Middle East, and Afghanistan. We actually plunged this country into the front line of terrorist hate, but did it gladly to curry favour with the good old U.S.A.Blair and all the Labour Party including Murphy have much to answer for, hopefully in some court.

    159. Paula Rose says:

      Morag will never allow a herd mentality to develop for which I applaud her, on the other hand a herd of wingers is so delightfully ridiculous.

    160. msean says:

      According to the telly weather today,we are all north british today, I’m still Scottish though. 🙂

    161. Vronsky says:

      Best of luck to Craig Murray – he’s a man who will fight the machine. That’s if the machine doesn’t spike his vetting result.

    162. Dr Jim says:

      I’ve been away for my dinner for quite a while and this bloody person is still having a row with everybody, what the blazes is it that you seem not to understand that everybody, YES everybody has a completely valid opinion that’s why it’s called an opinion, not everyone may be blessed or touched by the angel of all knowledge as the all knowing one..get yourself an Irn Bru crate and.. no wait that shit’s been done This site used to be informative and fun with lots of clever people posting, but i’m noticing we’re losing some because of this kind of nonsense and i for one dont care whose side you say you’re on but it does’nt feel like mine…I am Alex Salmond…

    163. fred blogger says:

      Grouse Beater
      yes, stanley milgram, just following order’s.
      collective cognitive convergence is what WM suffers from, by cause of career politics, which is very bad for democracy.
      then pavlov’s dog’s, operant conditioning.
      mix in a bit of piaget’s concrete operational, we have a disaster on our hands.
      hard to tell their politics apart now.
      apart from the mantra’s they spout claiming to be this that or the other.
      weave red clydesider’s into a speech, now mean’s that the speaker is a socialist??
      but as we know socialist actions make one a socialist, not word’s.

    164. donald anderson says:

      No ne seems to mention Britain’s torture role since Labour sent the Troops in to Ireland in 1969.

    165. ScottieDog says:

      Looking forward to the full interview with John Pilger about the media’s part in ‘normalising’ uk involvement in torture…
      http://rt.com/uk/213223-rt-exclusive-john-pilger/

    166. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian: In 2004 we (Ayrshire SSP) went into Prestwick Airport with loudhailer and leaflets alerting the airport’s users to the likelihood that rendition … was conducted via the premises.

      Well done! I had not heard of a single protest, but then you explain why.

    167. Morag says:

      I remember hearing something about it, though I’m not sure how. The SSP has just tweeted some photos.

      https://twitter.com/The_SSP_/status/542804965283344384

      Good that someone tried, at least.

    168. Shadow says:

      One of the most interesting things about Craig Murray is how he has become an unperson in the UK broadcast and print media; even to link to his blog on the Guardian Comment is Free is to invite moderation. If you read his blog, there are a number of stories of him being invited onto Question Time, Any Questions?, the Today Programme, and then being disinvited a day or two later, often at quite short notice. It is almost as if there was a department of preventing undesirables from appearing on TV or radio phoning up producers and saying “No, he’s not the right sort of chap.”
      And now we have a US Senate report admitting to official sanctioned torture. Which media outlets have asked for the views of the UK Ambassador who resigned over the issue? Russia Today.

    169. Cadogan Enright says:

      @donald anderson 10:28 pm
      well you have to admire the USA in coming out with the truth. It would never happen here.
      The Irish government has just taken the UK back to court for torture, the UK have suppressed Lord Stevens report as it would disclose the state role in the random murder of 400 civilians unconnected with terrorism and just try googling pat finucane and rosemary nelson or the many inquests that are still waiting to be heard up to 40 years later or my local pub in Loughlinisland.

      When Scotland becomes independent please God the security services will either be abolished or brought under transparent democratic control and subject to the law.
      And I’m feeling lucky not to be a Muslim these days

    170. Chic McGregor says:

      Shadow

      Maybe, if he gets elected, they will use an actor’s voice like for Gerry Adams, e.g. when they have to show questions at PMQs.

      Now that would be a Streisand effect.

    171. Clydebuilt says:

      Craig has the ability to be a great addition to the SNP at Westminister, a very courageous decent individual. Look forward to him being elected.
      His Blog is well worth reading.

    172. davidb says:

      When we speak about press smears, what press are we worried about? The Daily Rangers and The Sun are the only mass market papers. The BBC is now a discredited joke. Should we really fear or even get phased by what any of them say? None of them is going to be cheerleading the SNP Alliance in May.So we are perhaps in order to think about the actions we can take to counter smearing.

      I have read lots about MP’s dodgy expenses dealings. I’ve heard lots of gossip on the likes of Guido’s about individual members. Hows about if they get dirty some of the unaffiliated – and not bound by party discipline – stick it right back at them. Flyers A3 in colour can be printed from about £40 a thousand. I have bill posted doors and reckon one person can get about 150 an hour through letterboxes. This whole Yes campaign was in the end a peoples campaign. I do not believe that even though the SNP started the ball rolling, that by the end they were “in control”. So its back to the idea of being creative again. Obviously there are libel laws, but if you only ever print verifiable published facts you are unlikely to be taken on.

    173. Hector says:

      I read Craig’s book when it first came out and was impressed by his honesty, courage and willingness to challenge the British State. I was surprised and delighted when I discovered his support for Yes during the IndyRef. I think he needs to temper his anger, and I understand his distrust of the British state and the Establishment. But, who better than he, understands it, how it works and how to counter it. He can only be a tremendous asset to the Yes Movement. I would like to see him in Westminster!

    174. Cag-does-thinking says:

      Brilliant moment on Scotland 2014 when Herald journalist and Labour party apologist Catherine McLeod was asked what policies the Labour party had in Scotland. Answer came their none except the SNP are bad ohh yes……

    175. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      Herding cats it is then.

      Notice how any anti-establishment organization seemed to split, or die out? There was even a Monty Python film about it.

      Fuck this people.

      Fingers out of arses big time.

      Morag and Craig are on the same side. Sort of.

      Remember that.

    176. Famous15 says:

      The BBC today hammered the SNP at regular intervals on NHS,Education and justice administration. No mention about Westminster cuts.

      Reading the Independent however you realise the situation in England is worse.

      Just wait until Mrphy gets going.As I speak Kezia Dugdale pops up on STV blah blah blah SNP bad!

    177. CameronB Brodie says:

      ronnie anderson
      I seem to remember reading that Strthclyde Police attempted to gain access to one of the rendition flights that landed at Prestwick. If I remember correctly, access was denied by armed US officials who claimed the aircraft was ‘US territory’.

      You simply couldn’t make this stuff up.

    178. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @Ronnie A

      Yes you are probably right. Nothing will come of it in the end – it will be released perhaps after 100 years or so…

      However, if it puts Straw and Murphy (he was in the cabinet at the time – was he not?) on the back foot for the next few months then that will be pretty good.

    179. Paula Rose says:

      Hi Conan honey – all the cats gather here xx

    180. G H Graham says:

      Morag is a pain in the arse & her morale crusade has once again caused me to prematurely divert from reading anymore on these pages.

      And I won’t blame any new readers for having done the same tonight.

      Well done Morag. A bottle of vinegar will be shipped out first thing in the morning.

    181. Cadogan Enright says:

      @Conan_the_Librarian “Fingers out of arses big time.
      Morag and Craig are on the same side”

      too bloody right – and I for one will light a candle that they don’t forget it

    182. Macduff says:

      Oh here we go folks disorting scotland with the rhona and the kursty sticking it to the SNP about teachers ratio to amount of kids and laboor jumping on the band wagon fat dugdale stating even if its a small increase its not good enough how effing dare they hypocrites the lot of them they couldnae run a bath never mind a party….even a monkey would know how difficult it is for any party working within the constraints of westmonster budgets.,,last week it was all about the burning of the smith report and now its the ratio of teachers to kids …what next ? Alex made me laugh though when he held up the dagger thing hes selling as part of his charity auction ….esp when he joked ..it would maybe come in handy at Westmonster ……ha ha ha …..maybe they will jail him in the Tower ……

    183. Morag says:

      This has almost become an intellectual exercise to determine just how little dissent from the majority opinion will be tolerated. Answer, very little.

      That people can’t cope with reading an opinion different from their own, actively call for the person to be silenced, and indulge in petty personal attacks, is quite surprising to me. I suppose I should be used to it.

    184. Paula Rose says:

      Hold on – new mantra – British people good Scottish people bad

      We’re all fucking British its to do with geographic land mass

      we can choose to be yuckish, yukanian or Scottish.

    185. Graeme Doig says:

      ‘An inconvenient truth – not everyone is in the same herd.’

      Absolutely. This site thrives on diverse opinion and discussion/disagreement. Most of the time, by using respectful, inclusive language and knowing when to employ humility, this works.
      Unfortunately there is a common denominator in many of the ridiculous spats that occur here.
      Some people can, and want to, take others with them even through disagreement (leaders) with the language they can deploy. Others (often well intentioned but never the less completely unaware) are prone to and may even thrive on bringing others down with theirs.
      I believe many threads have suffered, and much to the detriment of the site, because of the latter.

    186. kininvie says:

      I wasn’t going to comment on this thread, but on reflection…

      There is always a problem in foreign relations over how you deal with unpleasant regimes. Do you call them out publicly and get ignored for your pains, or do you try and work ‘behind the scenes’ to get them to see the error of their ways?

      The UK govt has traditonally taken the latter route – and it works – sometimes. In small ways, true, but often significant.

      The question concerning Mr Murray is not whether he had the moral right to protest against his employer’s (UK govt’s) policy – of course he did. The question is whether he should have resigned before doing so.

      And this has implications for his role as MP. Anyone who has stood for elected office in any party will be familiar with the need to sign up to the disciplinary procedures – which boil down to the occasional need to hold your nose and vote for the stated policy of your party, despite your misgivings. If you don’t like it, you resign, or don’t stand in the first place.

      We need people to hold the moral high ground – that’s indisputable. But whether they should be in a diplomatic service or a political party is a more difficult decision.

    187. Valerie says:

      I find Craig Murray utterly fascinating, what a life he has led (I’m reading the Catholic Orangemen). Its a world most of us know nothing about, nor really want to! I believe Mr Murray to be an incredibly brave, intelligent and principled individual, and wish him luck in his bid.

      I’m sure he is not entering into this lightly, and knows far more than we do about what the State can throw at him, yet he is still willing to do his bit to help this country.

      How about the folk on this site DON’T do the Unionist’s job for them.

    188. RJF says:

      “Just following orders” didn’t excuse the Auschwitz guards, why do Nats think that they have nothing to do with Scotland’s cheerful participation in and benefit from centuries of Empire?

      It’s particularly interesting when Union came about in the first place because of Scotland’s attempts to establish its own overseas colonies. Had Darien succeeded and Scotland been an imperial power in its own right, would you be so quick to condemn?

    189. Democracy Reborn says:

      Re Craig Murray.

      Craig, I enjoy your blog & wish you well in your efforts to be selected as an SNP candidate.

      @Bob Mack

      “..Blair was jumping through hoops to impress the Americans.”

      Go onto YouTube, Bob. Take a look at a documentary the BBC did called “The Blair Years”. Straight from the horse’s mouth : Tony talks about the run-up to the vote on the Iraq War. People thought he was just trying to impress the Yanks (Bush’s poodle). Not so. Listen to what Tony says. “In a sense it’s worse than that. I actually BELIEVED in it. I believed in it then and I believe in it now.”

      I wonder if the putative leader of Labour’s North British Branch, the Rt Hon Jim Murphy, still believes in it? Given the shocking contents of the U.S. Report on CIA torture, has anyone called Murphy to account? That story would be 100x more newsworthy than a smearing hatchet job on Craig Murray.

    190. Conan_the_Librarian says:

      I disagree Morag.

      There are characters on here, who by force of will and knowledge tend to guide discourse.

      When they collide it’s only the Daily Mail who gains…

    191. Lenny Hartley says:

      ronnie anderson

      I have heard that cleaners were allowed onboard at Prestwick.

      People

      Remember we are all (well most of us) on the same side. Everybodies opinion is valid and respected. No use falling out with each other.

      When I worked for a living, I spend a lot of time dealing with colleagues on the phone or via email and sometimes when relations had become strained most times if we ever met up face to face, things would go better thereafter.

      Maybe we should have another WOS night out in Glasgow after the new year?

      My tuppence worth on Craig, I am an admirer, even have a autographed book. I previously thought that you should do the time before being selected as a candidate, however on reflection, I think that Craig Murray would be an asset and therefore should be able to stand for the SNP.

    192. Paula Rose says:

      We do get some Right Jolly Fuckwits on here don’t we?

    193. Morag says:

      Apparently Labour are publicly calling on Nicola not to approve Craig Murray as an SNP candidate. Is that because they think he’ll be a thorn in their side? Or is it a wee bit of double-bluff?

      Heck knows, I don’t.

    194. Flower of Scotland says:

      I hope Craig gets elected to stand, but that’s up to the SNP and no one else. Morag, when you get a bee in your bonnet……..!

    195. Rock says:

      Morag,

      “I’ve said before that I worry that Craig Murray is a loose cannon who would struggle to work in a team with the SNP group. Also that his past leaves him wide open to damaging smears. It doesn’t really matter whether that stuff it true or not, it was used to smear him before, very effectively, and it can be trotted out to do the same job again. So the idea of him as a candidate isn’t one I particularly welcome.”

      Craig Murray is a rare diplomat who sacrificed his career for his principles. And he has been proven right while the likes of Bliar and Straw have been exposed as liars.

      If you have issues with him, god knows how many people you have issues with.

      You didn’t have any issues with Blair Jenkins did you?

    196. Rock says:

      Morag,

      Any ‘principled’ lawyers who can speedingly form a case against Bliar and Straw for their complicity in illegal and brutal torture?

      Before this ‘evidence’ did you believe it was just a conspiracy theory?

    197. Morag says:

      Whatever makes you think that, Rock?

    198. liz says:

      I don’t believe that anyone on these threads are preventing anyone from expressing their view.
      I don’t believe anyone is trying to silence dissenting views.

      I don’t believe there is a groupthink, herd attitude.

      I think that some people don’t seem to realise that they are being insulting towards folk who disagree with them, we need to keep all disagreements impersonal.

      My last comment on this as I think it is distracting from our common goal and so in future I’m going to ignore any comments which try to create division either knowingly or unknowingly.

    199. Morag says:

      That last reply was for the post before the one above it, but it’ll do anyway.

      I thought the whole torture thing and the rendition flights through Prestwick was common knowledge for years. I mean, who’s surprised?

    200. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @paula rose

      Pure genius !

      You have just found the new name for the rUK that we have been looking for all this time.

      YUKANIA !

      Now we just need to get there. 🙂

      Ah – in a few years time, I can just see the Royal Albert Hall resounding to…

      “Rule Yukania. Yukania rules the waves…”

    201. cearc says:

      Morag, 11.39,

      Well they would wouldn’t they.

      The thought of Murray speaking with parliamentary privelege will be causing much anxiety in their circles. Especially after today’s letter from America.

    202. Fireproofjim says:

      Morag/Craig Murray
      Surely this has been chewed over enough. Time for bed and a fresh topic tomorrow.(hopefully)

    203. Morag says:

      Well, Cearc, I don’t know. Maybe they’re naive wee souls who really think Nicola will take their advice at face value, because obviously they have no motive other than the good of the SNP.

      Or maybe they’re devious politicians who calculate that one way to improve the chances of a controversial figure being selected is to call publicly for him not to be selected.

      As I said, heck knows.

    204. Paula Rose says:

      Big Hoss honey – I didn’t originate it, but I keep their flag flying – it’s pronounced

      Yeuckania (that’s mine and Better Together St Kilda’s)

    205. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Graeme Doig Well said Graeme as with Bob Sinclair Ian Brotherhood voices in the wilderness.I gave up the last time on this issue,many of us have had disagreements over the years but resolve to disengadge for the betterment of this site.

      There,s is only one Moderator of this WOS site & I wish to god he would intervene more often.

      Dont keep picking at scabs lads n lasses we,re better than that,lets get back to what we do best Inform & Share information.

    206. Ananurhing says:

      Paula Rose,

      Yes Ma’am. You called my name.

      For what it’s worth, I fully understand Morag’s reservations regarding CM being less than squeaky clean as a candidate,probably leading to an onslaught of ad hominem attacks from the MSM.

      However on balance, I’d give anything to hear CM unleashed on Westminster with parliamentary immunity.

    207. cearc says:

      I think that the SNP need to take a strong line, when attacks are made on people, that SNP members and representatives are individuals. Therefore, they are entitled to express their own opinions.

      It is the ‘good of the party/party first’ mentalilty that has created the obnoxious goverment cover-ups on so many issues.

      Just as with Wingers and the larger Yes movements, the SNP contains people of varying political shades who have coalesced for the greater good. It is a movement as well as a political party.

    208. ClanDonald says:

      Morag says: “Apparently Labour are publicly calling on Nicola not to approve Craig Murray as an SNP candidate. Is that because they think he’ll be a thorn in their side? Or is it a wee bit of double-bluff?”

      If Craig were elected then the media would be unable to ignore him any more. Presumably the media would be annoyed about this, they would rather keep ignoring him. He might tell the general public things that the Establishment would rather keep quiet.

      For that reason alone, I’m up for Craig going to Westminster. And even if he were the squeakiest of squeaky clean they would just make up lies to smear him with anyway like the Daily Mail did with Nicola and the Crown Estate/Sovereign grant the other day.

    209. Cadogan Enright says:

      we are all on a bus and need enough fares to get to the next stop in 2015 and 2016 on route to the final destination, There’s plenty of room, smokers upstairs, Greens providing fuel, SNP driving, socialists collecting fares.

      There are plenty of spare seats for Morag, Craig and the rainbow pantheon of talent that is YES.

      We need to be inclusive and permissive and broaden the base way beyond 45%.

      Anyway, we need to trust local democratic selection committees – none of us has all the answers. As my mother used to say, ‘he who never made a mistake never did anything’. Lets trust whichever local group has to decide about Craig and let this issue drop once and for all.

      (but I am still looking for SNP/Green and SNP/Soc candidates with a view to 59 seats)

    210. Bob Mack says:

      Thank God for diversity. You can only learn, and make up your own mind, through gathering the facts and making a judgement on those facts. This thread has helped me tonight to do so. The danger is always that you do not allow others to think outside your own box of knowledge. This often leads to bad outcomes, and I would rather have the discussions we have, than live in the realm of the singular thought where no-one is enabled to point out mistakes. My electric blanket awaits.

    211. Thepnr says:

      @Cadogan Enright

      Your talking common sense here. Works for me, nothing need be complicated. What’s right is well just that.

    212. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @paula rose

      “Rule Yeuckania. Yeuckania rules the waves…”

      Yes – that sounds like a much better pronunciation.

      I will use Yukanians and Yukania from now on to describe our imperial masters and their homeland.

      I wonder if you even get proud Yukanianbuts down suff?

    213. CameronB Brodie says:

      Fuck it, I’ll break cover.

      Morag, do you still consider me a Fuckwit. Your words not mine.

      If not, any chance of an apology?

    214. Morag says:

      Linky? For context, you understand.

      You asked to shake hands, and I did, in good faith. I don’t believe I’ve disagreed with you in the months since. Still, your call.

    215. boris says:

      Jim Spud Murphy is still grabbing headlines. I have compiled the largest report on the enigma that is Jim. Love him or hate him he is not going away any time soon. I was waiting for him to play the religion card and he duly did so.

      It would be unwise to underrate Murphy. The loneliness of the long distance runner generates lots of thinking time.

      There’s much reading in the blog

      http://caltonjock.com/2014/12/10/jim-spud-murphy-love-him-or-hate-him-he-is-not-returning-to-westminster-holywrood-beckons/

    216. Cadogan Enright says:

      Yo! CameronB Brodie ! its an on-line forum bus – you might never meet – you can always move seats or complain to the conductor.

      If someone won’t apologise for obscenities, you can either ignore it or complain to the rev.

      Theres loads of room here upstairs. No point in upsetting the other passengers

      chill man

    217. Dr Jim says:

      We dont know what our policies are today but we’ll probably know on saturday if we win, but if we dont win we’ll know what our policies are’nt, coz they’ll not be the policies of whoever does win and then we will vigorously oppose those policies of the ones who do win and that will be our firm commitment to the people of Scotland going forward and we’ll make no apologies for that policy and our promises of these progressive policies and then we will review them and i’m big and ugly enough to do that…My Name is Murphy, and i want to be First Min..MSP.. MP..Boss.. em, Something.. anything?

    218. Morag says:

      If someone is accused of uttering an obscenity she doesn’t remember even using, never mind the context, it would seem reasonable to provide a link.

      I guess it’s possible I might have lost my temper and said that at some time in the past, but I’m not going to grovel on a mere accusation.

    219. ronnie anderson says:

      @Paula Rose (fuckwits) is that insertion through the earhole lol.

      @Lenny Hartley

      colleagues on the phone or via email and sometimes when relations had become strained most times if we ever met up face to face, things would go better thereafter.

      A lot of people on this site have never met on a social nite out & engadged in disrespecting other Wingers & that has to stop.

    220. Morag says:

      Oh yes, and it’s a bit hypocritical, don’t you think, for someone to cosy up all friendly and ask to shake hands and let’s make up and let bygones be bygones and all that, then suddenly to come out with an ancient grievance that has nothing to do with the subject under discussion.

      I don’t even know if Cameron is telling the truth. I don’t believe we’ve had a cross word since that evening in Edinburgh where he asked to shake hands.

    221. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Thepnr did you enjoy your holiday, sos about the early morning call.

    222. Morag says:

      Ronnie, I met Cameron, and he asked to shake hands and be friends. Since then I have tried not to become exasperated with him, because I took the handshake seriously.

      I don’t even know what he’s on about, until he provides a link. I’m not damn well apologising for something I don’t even remember doing, and therefore have no context for.

    223. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cadogan Enright
      I’m not sure if you are seeing the bigger picture. I get your drift and I don’t mean to be rude, but this doesn’t concern you.

    224. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Hey big brur, I see you have an avatar. Reminds me slightly of the elder brother of our near farming neighbours at Proncy.

      @ keaton if your “shut up” comment was referring to me I suggest you go back to the previous threads weeks/months ago and see for yourself rather than casting aspersions.

      It strikes me that as Craig has seen diplomatic service he would have been subject to serious vetting to even reach the position he held, so there shouldn’t be any skeletons in the closets, unless our “friends” (waves to Cheltenham) have put them there.

      As I mentioned upthread, we too in the Highlands have had the rendition flights passing through, Inverness and Wick. I wonder how HIAL (Highland and Island Airports Ltd) logged those CIA flights. No surprise they came somewhere quieter for refueling.

    225. ronnie anderson says:

      Rite am oota here

    226. Rock says:

      Morag,

      “If he was standing for a unionist party, I’d fully expect to see a WoS article filleting him. Unfortunately.”

      Well, as self appointed Deputy Editor of W O S, you have wasted no time in filleting him.

      Whether you like it or not, Craig Murray sacrificed a lucrative career for his principles and unlike the respected lawyers you so admire has not hesitated to publicly attack the lowest of the lowest of the low, Jack Straw.

    227. Rock says:

      Muscleguy,

      “The best thing about getting Craig into parliament will be that he will be able to say things under parliamentary privilege. I expect there are a whole slew of things he would like to say but dare not in public or print. For this reason alone we must get him into parliament.”

      Very good point.

    228. ClanDonald says:

      @Cadogan Enright: hear hear

    229. CameronB Brodie says:

      Morag
      You appear to have a very selective memory. Let me remind you that you refused my hand when offered on Calton Hill and then denied knowing who I was at the WOS get-together in Edinburgh.

      The reason we haven’t had a cross word, is I was ignoring you for the sake of the site. That is all I will say in public, appart from asking if you still consider me a Fuckwit?

    230. Rock says:

      Morag,

      “Just because someone is on our side doesn’t automatically make him a plaster saint, or set him above criticism.”

      That applies more to YOU than any other poster on this site, apart from the trolls, in my view.

      You have a typical British Establishment sneering attitude to anyone who disagrees with you. And there are many on here who do often disagree with you.

      Why don’t you give your ego a rest?

    231. Morag says:

      Cameron, Calton Hill was very crowded. I didn’t deliberately refuse your hand. I don’t even remember you being there. I had a vague memory of someone I thought might be you but when I met you in Edinburgh you weren’t the person I thought I remembered from Calton Hill.

      So, all that shake hands and make up in the pub in Edinburgh was a complete sham? I’m sorry to hear it.

      Now, would you link to this incident you’re going on about, because I don’t remember calling you that. Show me the context.

    232. CameronB Brodie says:

      Oh yes, and it’s a bit hypocritical, don’t you think, for someone to cosy up all friendly and ask to shake hands and let’s make up and let bygones be bygones and all that, then suddenly to come out with an ancient grievance that has nothing to do with the subject under discussion.

      Grow up please.

    233. Morag says:

      Rock, who made you (or any of the pile-on crew) guardians of what can and can’t be said here? If Mr. Murray is selected and elected and turns out to be a great MP, I’ll be very pleased indeed. (Very surprised indeed too, but I like pleasant surprises.)

      Until that happens, I don’t agree that biting one’s lip and not expressing real and genuine concerns is a constructive strategy.

      I haven’t attacked anyone for thinking that he’s a wonderful chap. I’ve merely disagreed, and explained why. For that I have been subjected to a barrage of personal attacks and demands that I be silenced.

      It’s not pretty.

    234. Morag says:

      Cameron, if you think it’s “grown up” to stage a big reconciliation production, then disavow it and dredge up ancient imagined wrongs, I’ll stay childike thanks.

      Now please link to this post where you allege I called you an abusive name. Until I see the context, I have no idea whether I should be apologising or repeating the opinion.

    235. CameronB Brodie says:

      It was on your Lockerbie post, quite near the start.

      I have no wish of dragging your poor judgement up in public, so go and look for yourself.

    236. CameronB Brodie says:

      Night, night folks.

    237. Rock says:

      Morag,

      “Rock, who made you (or any of the pile-on crew) guardians of what can and can’t be said here?”

      That is the question YOU, as self appointed Deputy Editor of W O S, need to answer.

      How can you claim that others are silencing you when you comment more than almost anyone else?

      The vast majority of posters on this article have strongly disagreed with you regarding Craig Murray.

      So if you used your common sense, you would accept the ‘landslide’ majority opinion and shut up on Craig Murray.

      This site and the wider independence movement is about much more than YOUR ego and your sneering attitude.

    238. Barontorc says:

      Rev Stu… this is still your blog?

    239. Morag says:

      I just checked the date of that article. 3rd January 2013. That is TWO YEARS AGO, as near as dammit.

      It’s the first time I was really aware of you on this blog, Cameron. You jumped into the BTL thread under my article, about the second or third post, with an extraordinarily annoying off-topic reference to 9/11. You then staged a petulant and extremely determined derail of the thread, making it very difficult to discuss Lockerbie itself for your repeated demands that I must agree with your position on 9/11.

      I thought that sort of thing was what we had agreed to put behind us, that evening in Edinburgh. It now seems that this wasn’t a sincere approach on your part. I’ll leave that to be your problem, not mine.

    240. Chic McGregor says:

      3-4 Years ago, Mid-Simmer, we were driving North on the A9 (near Findo Gask) when we saw a very large, 4 engined, aircraft, very low, apparently following the road South toward us. It veered off to its right (Westish) just as we got to it. It was so low, the bushes and trees on our left moved as it went by. I’m guessing it only cleared them by 50-100 feet.

      When we got home I checked internet images and the nearest which seemed to fit my recollection was a Lockheed C130, except this one had a ‘spike’ (radar?) coming out of its nose.

      At the time we nearly shat ourselves because at first it looked like it might be fixing to do an emergency landing on the A9.

      It was only when it veered off I remembered Strathallan airfield was nearby. Although AFAIK that is only a light aircraft airfield.

      I could just about envisage that this might have been officially approved but surely then traffic on the A9 would have been temporarily halted if only to avoid the risk of accident if only through distraction.

      I contacted the Strathearn Herald but they had no knowledge of it.

      Have often wondered if it was some kind of rendition ‘event’ or something else hush hush.

    241. Rock says:

      O/T,

      Is the coronation, I mean democratic election, going to be screened live on Pravda GB?

    242. Morag says:

      Rock, I think you might try to back up that claim of yours that I “comment more than almost anyone else”. Except you can’t. It’s nonsense.

      Most people here think Craig Murray is wonderful. I did notice. That’s why I expressed my reservations about him. I tried to get off the subject several times, but was constantly dragged back by people making personal attacks on me and demanding that I “shut up”.

      I just reviewed the thread to see if I’d had some sort of brainstorm and said something outrageous that I didn’t remember posting, but no. I simply expressed my concerns that such a controversial figure who has been successfully smeared in the past and who is currently very outspoken might attract adverse publicity.

      Other people made perfectly valid points to support the opposite point of view, some of which I agreed with. Several times I said I’d wait and see, and would reconsider my opinion if events took a different turn from my predictions.

      I’ve been subjected to a barrage of personal abuse. I’ve been called names, I’ve been told to shut up, I’ve been accused of plagiarising someone else’s work, of wanting to be an MP myself (not in a million years, indeed I rejected the suggestion in the 1990s), and something I said in the heat of an argument two years ago has been dredged up.

      It’s been the most unedifying example of bullying I’ve been subjected to on Wings. It seems there is a group here who can’t bear even a reasoned disagreement with their own point of view, and will belittle and hound anyone who doesn’t toe the party line.

      Well, I’m not toeing the party line if I don’t agree with it. Get over it.

    243. Dr Jim says:

      This stupid bloody woman is still at it, for goodness sake folks dont let this, whatever she is, ruin this site by dragging you down, see now i’m doing it and it’s not informative and it’s not entertaining and it’s not what normally happens on this site. This is a person with nothing else to do with their time but stir for sheer enjoyment, if you were standing in a room you’d be advising others to give it a wide berth, Trouble with a capital T…

    244. thoughtsofascot says:

      @MajorBloodnok

      No one is trying to silence you Morag (except perhaps when you’re playing the recorder and everyone in the entire orchestra is a quarter-tone flat, except you).

      People are just exasperated that every time Craig Murray is mentioned here, or elsewhere, you just attack him. It’s rather disturbing and perplexing for the rest of us…

      Sounds a lot like what we heard before the referendum many times on our own social network pages, huh?

      “A) I don’t like Alex Salmond
      B) Why?
      A) Because he is a power hungry dictator wannabe like Mugabe!
      B) Proof?
      A) Look at what he says! (Takes a quote about Putin out of context)
      B) You do realise he didn’t actually say anything of the sort, right?
      A) So? You can see he’s clearly thinking it! He wants to turn us into the new South Africa!
      B) Uh… Please keep away from me, you are spitting foam everywhere. I don’t want to catch what you have. Good day.”

      Attacks against a person with no basis or justification are not on. I think it goes without saying that ff a person makes accusations against another person, then they should have the decency to show evidence.

    245. Barontorc says:

      Rev Stu …..

    246. Morag says:

      OK, it’s the middle of the bloody night, what else is there to do.

      Cameron, I checked the thread you referred to. “Quite near the start” it was not. The post where I completely lost patience with you was made on 9th January, six days into the argument, not long before Stuart closed the thread.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/adequately-explained-by-stupidity/comment-page-1/#comment-200799

      You had just made an extraordinary post which ended with a demand to know what my “field of expertise” is and “which sector” I’m employed by, culminating in the suggestion that I was some sort of “agent of influence” and/or a “willing idiot” working for some unspecified “bigger plan” which sounded remarkably like an accusation that I was some sort of government agent.

      That was the post to which I replied, “Cameron, you are a complete fuckwit.”

      That isn’t a word I often use, and in fact I can’t recall ever using it before or since. I thought there must have been some provocation involved, and indeed when people insinuate that I’m an MI5 agent because I won’t engage with their theories about 9/11 I do feel quite provoked.

      I thought we shook hands in good faith last summer in Edinburgh. Apparently there was no good faith on your part at all, although you were the one who approached me. So no, I won’t be apologising or withdrawing that comment. Not in the context in which it was made.

    247. Morag says:

      Look, I see some people are still at it. I explained my reasons for being worried by the idea of Craig Murray as an SNP candidate several times. Indeed, several people agreed with me.

      If thoughtsofascot and others can’t read that explanation, and keep going on about “no basis or justification”, that is not my problem.

    248. CameronB Brodie says:

      That’s 1% – 1 now.

    249. thoughtsofascot says:

      I can understand your concerns Morag, but you need to look at the bigger picture here. Yes he can be smeared, but he has been a thorn on the side of the British government for over a decade now. They have literally thrown everything but the kitchen sink at him and he is still standing. Still walking with a relatively secure reputation. He has, as the article provides ample evidence for, also been completely vindicated in his decade long stance. Does he say questionable stuff sometimes? Yes, of course he does, like we all do. There’s not a lot more that could be thrown at him though that hasn’t already been thrown. Stale, used monkey poo tends to be less effective than fresh or refrigerated monkey poo.

      We all have the same goals here, we all want to get as many SNP seats as possible in 2015 to give us a better hand in the future. We also have to think about the candidates too though. We don’t want to be sending SNP careerists instead of Labour or Tory careerists. We may get what we want, but we risk inflicting the disease of westminster upon our own parliament in the future. We need to send people with principles. People willing to take a stand. People that will not always tow the party line like poodles.

      Your very own final comment reveals a contradiction. It is for that reason of not towing the party line that would make him an excellent candidate. He may not get selected for that reason, but if he does not, the SNP will be poorer for not allowing an independent mind to stand.

    250. liz g says:

      Morag wee question. the last time I read you disagreeing with people on a thread you said that you’re washing hadn’t been done we if I rember right agreed that it was probably because you had visitors and not because you hadn’t had you’re cereal,
      so what I really want to know is. Is the washing done? X

      And Cameron being friends with and related to many many many
      Fuckwits but yes voting Fuckwits I hope you are not being preducice ?
      In fact since I can’t tell if this is an OT comment or not I am probably geneticly programmed to Fuckwittary mysef X

    251. Valerie says:

      Tell ya one thing, I never cease to be amazed by the speed of morags internet connection, or typing speeds, you cover screeds, Morag.

    252. Morag says:

      Thoughtsofascot, I don’t entirely disagree with that point of view. I just don’t think it’s the only one. Several people have made reasonable comments explaining why they think Craig Murray would be a good MP, and who knows, events may prove them right.

      Conversely, I worry that the next parliament may be an extraordinarily difficult balancing act for the SNP, requiring supreme tact, restraint, teamwork and strategy. It’s not just about winning a shedload of seats, it’s about putting the right people in there, who can handle that balancing act. I genuinely worry that a loose cannon with a fairly lurid past and a tendency to speak out of turn (those remarks about No voters for example) isn’t a good choice.

      I might be proven wrong, and that would be excellent. I’d be delighted to hold my hands up and say, goodness, what an asset Mr. Murray has been to the SNP after all.

      But until that time comes, I think it’s constructive to express reservations and worries, and not “shut up” just because other people don’t share them.

    253. donald anderson says:

      Britain at war. One Party State.

      http://www.liblabcon.com/videos/2014/11/28/were-at-war

    254. Morag says:

      Valerie, I was worried last night that Wings was really slow, but restarting the computer fixed it. Firefox was trying to crash.

      I just went off to try to review that two-year-old thread that Cameron was fretting about. I was quite shocked by the amount I typed there. Of course that was less than three months before I decided to write the book. I think it was simmering at the time.

      I’ve never been trained to type, it’s a legacy of piano lessons way back (got to Grade 7 and now can’t play at all!) and a middle-age mis-spent on the JREF forum arguing with homoeopaths and other delusions.

      Yeah, I go on a bit when I get going. But there are many threads I just read. I never meant this one to get so out of hand, but then I didn’t expect to be attacked quite so comprehensively for daring to post a dissenting opinion.

    255. Morag says:

      It’s not my washing that hasn’t been done this time, it’s the Christmas cards. And the present-wrapping.

      And my beauty sleep. I’m the bloody poster girl for that “I can’t come to bed, somebidy is wrong on the internet” cartoon.

    256. Dr Jim says:

      Somebody stop me! BED..I am as always Alex Salmond…

    257. donald anderson says:

      Britain at war. One Party State.

      http://www.liblabcon.com/videos/2014/11/28/were-at-war

    258. A2 says:

      I know I’m late to the party but really

      “it dosn’t matter if it’s true or not”

      took me quite aback Morag.

      If we follow that logic it means the papers can make up any old shite about anyone as long as they can make it stick and there’s not a thing that can be done about it. Maybe Craig Murray isn’t a suitable candidate due to his history, I don’t know, but sure as f, anything, it does matter whether that history is fact or fiction!

    259. Dorothy Devine says:

      A2 , you are correct the MSM is more than willing to make up any old shite in the press and broadcast any old shite via TV- saint or sinner , smear the Saint and cover up for the sinner if it is what the ” establishment” want.

      You will notice that we have beer swilling, fag smoking smiley Farage all over the media – this will remain until we get closer to the election , then derogatory comment, hints of unspecific wrong doing and smear will ensue , much as we have witnessed in the comment section here.

      Delighted to hear that Mr Murray has put himself forward , I believe him to be an asset to Scotland and the SNP and am genuinely pissed off with ” hints of wrong doing” , a plethora of which this site has had to endure.

      No-one is perfect, not even Rev Stu!

    260. David says:

      “Lurid Past” makes you unsuitable for Westmonster ?

      Unfortunately there seems to be no such application of this rule to the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer who allegedly was so fond of women of ill repute and the occasional peruvian marching powder back in his student days.

    261. Ken500 says:

      Westminster secrecy and lies. The US lied about ‘terror’ threats. That photo is horrific. At least with an SNP government there would be no rendition in Scotland, especially now Prestwick is public property.

      Where’s the Chilcott verdict? More cover up for the Westminster criminals who subverted the Scottish criminal justice system for their own ends. Blair/Brown should be in jail. They have killed people and destabilised the Middle East causing mass migration.

      If people want to be SNP candidates join the SNP.

    262. James Dow says:

      One of the best thing about living in these times is that you get to watch America disappearing up its own backside unlubricated, now that’s got to hurt.

    263. john king says:

      I slept on my opinion of the prospect of Craig Murray standing as an SNP candidate, and found myself (genuinely)torn between the veiw Morag takes on one hand and on the other having someone who knows (quite literally I fear) where the bodies are buried,

      I have read a lot of Craig’s work and found myself at times wincing at his opinions and thinking that some things would have been better left unsaid,

      then I think about the complete hypocrisy of some people who express horror and indignation at the revelations that the CIA tortured prisoners, and pour opprobrium on America for allowing such barbarity,

      Heres a question?

      how many people here really really believed that the rendition flights (that we knew were landing in Prestwick) that the people on board were not going to be tortured?
      we all knew ,if not the detail certainly the fact that those people were not going to a holiday camp with massages and breakfast in bed,

      The unpalatable truth is we have become insulated from the disgusting reality of life as it really is and not the cosy wee world Westminster would like us to think we live in, you only have to look at AL Jazeera to think,
      hang on this is not what the BBC said happened,

      No,
      on balance if Craig Murray makes people uncomfortable and makes them look at themselves and think about how they turned away pretending they didn’t know, and when confronted with the truth throw their/our? hands in the air in faux outrage, then we need a man like him we (all of us) need a moral remembrancer to remind us we are responsible for our actions and cannot ,should not be allowed to shrink from the consequences of those actions!

      I can remember like it was yesterday when I stood in the foyer of my place of work on my way back from a tea break watching a live news report of an aircraft having tragically crashed into one of the twin towers, and watching in absolute horror when another one crashed into the other tower, and in that split second the world changed for me for everyone on the planet,
      I felt a surge of cold anger that required retribution and no amount of punishment was too much,

      I wanted those people to suffer like they had made completely innocent people suffer and I didn’t care overly much how we achieved it, these people had to PAY FOR THEIR CRIMES,

      Well they did pay, didn’t they? along with countless innocent people who wished ill on no one and only wanted to live their lives in peace
      The analogy by Seasick dave is worth considering,
      what would we do if we were attacked in our homes while minding our own business because some one wanted to bring the middle east into their sphere of influence by hook or by crook,
      we would go out and kill our attackers as well,

      Virtually all of the middle Easts problems can be traced back to the doors of Westminster when they so grandly decided who would benefit from the gracious protection of her/his majesty who had his/her cartographers create new countries on their maps in Whitehall to make it easier for the crown to administer their dominions irrespective of how this affected the lives of people who have lived there for centuries, anybody ever looked at maps of the middle east (and Africa) and wondered how a national border can run for hundreds of miles in a dead straight line and think how efficient of those people to organise themselves so precisely?

      We were the architects of the modern middle east, we were the people who treated those people so badly we were the ones who bombed the Kurdish villages long before it was fashionable to get involved in something that was none of our business,

      The Americans?
      opportunists!
      We are totally to blame for the current state of the middle east and now the chickens are coming home to roost,
      And what do we do about it?

      Well we saddle up and ride right back in there to save those people from themselves yet again, of course helping ourselves to anything of value as a reward for our invaluable help.

      GO GET EM CRAIG

    264. Ken500 says:

      Some councils didn’t cut class sizes. Logistics. They used the money to employ class room assistants for Primaries 1-3. Overall only 250 teachers need recruiting. The Scortish Gov budget has been cut by Westminster £1.3Billion a year since 2011. If Scotland was Independent more money could be spent on education and health, instead of Trident.

    265. Ghillie says:

      I am appalled and disgusted at the nastiness of the personal comments aimed at Morag, here tonight. You have all lost my respect, including Craig Murray for his comment on Annie and Morag. That was not diplomatic.

      I for one am interested in hearing different opinions and wonder what happened to agreeing to disagree.

      Btw I saw Cameron B and Morag at the gathering in Edinburgh and understood that they had agreed to disagree with respect. CB that smacked of joining the lynch mob.

      And since when did anyone on this site advocate going along with the “landslide” opinion of others? What is the 45 all about then?

      So Rock, should all us Yes voters use our ‘common sense, accept the “landslide” majority opinion and shut up on’ Independence?

    266. john king says:

      Ian Brotherhood and the ssp are honorably absolved from my flagellant rant. 🙂

    267. Mealer says:

      Ken500,
      Of course,the super duper folk who send their children to private schools needn’t worry about such things.Its time our Scottish Government took them into hand.No more tax breaks!

    268. CameronB Brodie says:

      Change of mind.

      Are folk so short sighted that they see no link between these torture flights and 9/11? It was the catalyst for this bloody “WAR OF TERROR”. Some folk really have a brass neck. Fucking bare faced liars and most probably had their irony bone removed at birth.

      Time for the Crush-her to come out of retirement?

    269. john king says:

      BtP says
      “Sometimes, I am happy enough not to post on Wings, less infrequently than before.”

      Me anaw,
      I think? 🙁

    270. heedtracker says:

      I think its great news that Craig Murray may stand but he’s got to deal with UKOK dudes like this, who did everything possible to attack Scottish democracy and Scotland’s never to be reported in the rancid Graun, unless its to attack and so on. Farewell imperial master/progressive liberal fraud, who gave us

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/salmondbell.jpg

      http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/dec/10/alan-rusbridger-stand-down-guardian-editor-in-chief really helped save teamGB, for a wee while longer.

    271. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ghillie
      I asked her if we were all right and got a grudging shrug back in return. Any cordiality or coming together of minds, was purely in your imagination. Since then I have tried to be sweetness and light. I even retired the Crush-her, who may come out of retirement.

    272. CameronB Brodie says:

      What about the former head of MI6? Fiddling with kids, most probably for decades.

    273. Dr Ew says:

      At the time of the shameful renditions through Pretwick, Green MSP Chris Ballance reported the matter to Strathlyde Police – i.e. that crimes against Scots Law and International Law were taking place on Scottish soil. He also raised the issue in Parliament, exhorting then First Minister Jack McConnell to intervene. I cannot recall the precise wording of the mealy-mouthed mumbling from Happy Jack or of the excuses given by our redoubtable Bobbies at the time but it all amounted to this: Nothin’ tae dae wi us – that’s big boys’ stuff.

      Would it be safe to say “Never again”?

    274. Kenzie says:

      FFS, why is everyone and their aunty having a go at Morag. So she expressed an opinion and people disagreed with it, is that any excuse for the witch hunt that followed? The vitriolic attacks against this woman for having the courage of her convictions; to express an opinion some don’t agree with, says more about the attackers than it does about her.

    275. CameronB Brodie says:

      Talk about fucking cognitive dissonance. Well I did, repeatedly on her post.

      Is a fool belly all it takes?

    276. Lollysmum says:

      O/T
      Curran is mouthing off again today accusing Scotland of not being prepared for tax powers from next April.

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/11/scotland-not-prepared-for-new-tax-powers

      Will somebody please tell this idiot that the provisions from Smith are unlikely to be confirmed by Westminster for at least 18 months, if they are confirmed at all!

      You can’t set up tax systems & staff till you actually have the legislation enabling it & the formal power to collect the tax.

      Or is Slab going to rush the legislation through in 4 months? Don’t think so-they only rush when they’re trying to save their own skins.

    277. terry says:

      @thoughtsofascot
      “We don’t want to be sending SNP careerists instead of Labour or Tory careerists. We may get what we want, but we risk inflicting the disease of westminster upon our own parliament in the future. We need to send people with principles. People willing to take a stand. People that will not always tow the party line like poodles.”

      Well said. Thanks for the wise words.

      It’s good to see a range of views and open debate on here however let’s save our energies now for future productive actions – something creative like another “Bow down to your imperial masters!”. Genius!

    278. thoughtsofascot says:

      @John King

      That’s how I see it too. There are upsides and downsides to him, but I think when the bigger picture is looked at, the upsides outweigh the downsides.

      I’m tired of the teflon Tonys of politics. We all are. This is one of the many reasons why we are repulsed by the current crop of politicians. Here we have a guy that actually has integrity. That’s a rare thing these days.

      @Ghillie

      This is why everyone needs to remobilize as soon as possible. bitching at each other about differences is exactly what our enemies want us to do. People need something to take their minds off the many differences that exist within our movement and focus on the real fight. The referendum gave us that. It united us. We need to all maintain that unity while allowing for differences in opinion, otherwise we might as well hand May 2015 over to the unionists who are hell-bent on rerunning the referendum(The irony is classic!)

    279. tartanarse says:

      Morag Over Scotland. Get over yersel hen. You’re annoying.

      There ye are folks.

      Some of you folks are just too damn polite.

      I don’t often post but I do read every day and have done for a long time and to date I haven’t actually been annoyed enough to comment on any given individual.

      That is all.

      No correspondence will be entered or future comment made on this. I am too busy.

      We are all on the same side apparently.

    280. terry says:

      @thoughtsofascot
      “We don’t want to be sending SNP careerists instead of Labour or Tory careerists. We may get what we want, but we risk inflicting the disease of westminster upon our own parliament in the future. We need to send people with principles. People willing to take a stand. People that will not always tow the party line like poodles.”

      Well said. Thanks for the wise words.

      It’s good to see a range of views and open debate on here however let’s save our energies now for future productive actions – something creative like another “Bow down to your imperial masters!”. Genius!

    281. tartanarse says:

      Morag Over Scotland. Get over yersel hen. You’re annoying.

      There ye are folks, straight to the point.

      Some of you folks are just too damn polite.

      I don’t often post but I do read every day and have done for a long time and to date I haven’t actually been annoyed enough to comment on any given individual.

      That is all.

      No correspondence will be entered or future comment made on this. I am too busy.

      We are all on the same side apparently.

    282. Dal Riata says:

      @Morag

      “personal abuse”

      “demands that I be silenced”

      “calls to shut up.”

      “repeatedly subjected to personal attacks and told to shut up”

      “little dissent from the majority opinion will be tolerated.”

      “actively call for the person to be silenced, and indulge in petty personal attacks”

      “I have been subjected to a barrage of personal attacks and demands that I be silenced.”

      “I’ve been subjected to a barrage of personal abuse. I’ve been called names, I’ve been told to shut up”

      “It’s been the most unedifying example of bullying I’ve been subjected to on Wings.”

      “people making personal attacks on me and demanding that I “shut up”.”

      “I think it’s constructive to express reservations and worries, and not “shut up” just because other people don’t share them.”

      “constantly dragged back by people making personal attacks on me and demanding that I “shut up”.”

      “but then I didn’t expect to be attacked quite so comprehensively for daring to post a dissenting opinion.”

      Yes, I was the one upthread who wrote “Christ almighty, just shut up, will you, with your constant put-downs of Craig Murray.” There was no ‘demand’ that you shut up sine die. There was no, ‘Hey, shut it you!’ I was, and still am, hoping against hope, that you take it upon yourself to quit your constant smearing attempts against Craig Murray *every time* his name is mentioned here, be it ATL or BTL.

      Your other stuff about “a barrage of personal abuse”, being “comprehensively attacked” and “demands” that you be “silenced”, etc. are pathetic and disingenuous. You are well aware of what constitutes personal abuse on the internet – it is something far, far worse than you will ever see here, and you have not been subjected to anything like that.

      You seem to be terribly thin-skinned as regards to people disagreeing with your views, yet you never accept that those views of yours can be anything else but correct – ‘It’s my way or the highway’, so to speak.

      And when you say this: “It’s been the most unedifying example of bullying I’ve been subjected to on Wings.”… Come on, get over yourself! People see *you* as being the bully, more often than not trying to put people down because their viewpoint is different to yours.

      People are not conspiring to gang up on you. Ask yourself how and why it is that on this site you manage to upset so many people and piss them off to such a degree that they feel they have to come online and post about it.

      Nobody is demanding that you be silenced – that’s a ridiculous assumption. Get off your high horse, see yersel as others see ye for a while, then maybe, just maybe, we can all move on to better things.

    283. tartanarse says:

      Morag Over Scotland. Get over yersel hen. You’re annoying.

      There ye are folks, straight to the point.

      Some of you folks are just too damn polite.

      I don’t often post but I do read every day and have done for a long time and to date I haven’t actually been annoyed enough to comment on any given individual.

      That is all.

      No correspondence will be entered or future comment made on this. I am too busy.

      We are all on the same side apparently.

      not a duplicate eitherbtw daft server

    284. Giggy says:

      I remember this site received quite a bit of coverage when it was established.
      Fascinating and frightening data.

      http://www.therenditionproject.org.uk/global-rendition/the-flights/

      The zoomable flight-map may not co-operate on an older macbook.

    285. Macart says:

      Good luck to Mr Murray.

      As for mass torture and rendition? Our tax money at work no less. Well, we paid for it alright and supported this system of politics we enjoy today for as long as we can remember. This is what we pay for, make no mistake. In the name of ‘Foreign Affairs’, ‘Geo politics’, ‘British interests’, whatever nice clinical name you want to give it, we’ve paid our representatives to sign our names up for complicity in spreading suffering and misery.

      It is up to us to change the way we interact with the world and the criminal mistake of some by signing up for more of the same on September 18th, in the vain hopes that you can change this system from within is just that ‘a criminal mistake’. The only way to change how we interact with the world is to start again with a government and politics all our own. If we’re lucky, we’ll get a second chance sooner rather than later.

    286. tartanarse says:

      I have read Wings for a long time, and in that time have never missed even one story or cartoon.

      I don’t post often as I’m always too busy, but I would like to point out that I have never felt the urge to name an irritant.

      To be fair, especially in the run up to ref, things always seemed fine on here but I must agree with others that I find Morag annoying even when I agree with her.

      Just saying like.

      BTW I won’t be explaining this further or entering into any ding dongs over it as I am too busy, as explained earlier.

      Cheers folks. Keep up the good work.

    287. Lollysmum says:

      Sorry for repeat posts-kept getting Error 503 Service Unavailable so surprised to see them showing now.

    288. Dal Riata says:

      @Ghillie
      I am appalled and disgusted at the nastiness of the personal comments aimed at Morag, here tonight. You have all lost my respect, including Craig Murray for his comment on Annie and Morag. That was not diplomatic.”

      @Kenzie
      “…having a go at Morag. So she expressed an opinion and people disagreed with it, is that any excuse for the witch hunt that followed?”

      Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends,
      We’re so glad you could attend,
      Come inside! Come inside!

    289. tartanarse says:

      Just as well I don’t post very often, I seem to be clogging up the whole thread with the one post.

      Puter problems, halfway through an update. Apologies.

    290. Ghillie says:

      Cameron B
      I’m sorry to hear that. I understood that you had agreed to disagree with respect. Didn’t say anything about cordiality or coming together of minds, though that would have been nice.

      What the heck is the Crush-her? That doesn’t sound nice at all! And what exactly happens if it comes out of retirement? Sounds menacing. Why would you do that?

      There was a lynch mob out there last night.

      Because someone expressed their well reasoned concerns about a public figure who we, the voters, may be asked to trust. Half the population of Scotland have shown themselves to be politically engaged and I believe we should all examine every candidate that may get the chance to represent us, not just go along with the popular view.

      Throughout, Morag allowed that others may have a different opinion to her own. That courtesy was not returned, even by the man himself. Morag remained respectful. That courtesy was not returned. Morag even looked forward to the pleasant surprise that she might be proved wrong.`

      And in return a bunch of posters on Wings were rude, unkind and obnoxious. You know who you are. Shame on you.

      Whatever your opinion of Morag’s style, opinions or delivery, she deserves an apology from the whole lot of you.

    291. MajorBloodnok says:

      CameronB Brodie says: What about the former head of MI6? Fiddling with kids, most probably for decades.

      Which one was that?

    292. Dr Ew says:

      So now the Daily Mail is headlining ‘Secrets of CIA’s Scottish Torture Flights’. When Chris Ballance MSP was trying to address the situation as it was happening back in the mid-noughties (see my earlier comment above), the Daily Mail and others in the mainstream media either played up a “lefty troublemaker” subtext, dismissed his interventions as juvenile or just ignored the entire issue.

      I would like to think the present Scottish Government would intervene to stop our nation being party to such cynical huiman rights abuses were a similar situation to develop now, but no doubt the Daily Mail et al would be attacking any principled stance as “student politics” as opposed to Realpolitik.

    293. CameronB Brodie says:

      Lard!

      Lard!

      Lard! You can see it, in the clouds up in the sky.
      Lard! Floats by in clusters in our water supply.
      Lard! It’s in all of us, man. Our pores, and in our hair.
      Lard! What we conceal in those corny clothes we wear.

      Lard is all.
      Lard is divine.
      Lard is in control.
      Lard whips and chains our soul.
      We carry credit cards.
      We live in fear of art.
      Lard is the Om.
      Lard is revolution.
      Lard is the tapeworm,
      In the bottle of cheap tequila.
      That comes alive at night,
      And sneaks up and bite our nipples.

      Lard.
      Lard!

      Nowadays, most of us need someone to run our personal life.
      Someone to see that the plant are watered.
      Someone to make sure the place is clean.
      Someone to make sure dinner is waiting.
      Someone to call for theater tickets.
      Some one to make up those cheap excuses.
      What we need is Lard!

      Lard!

      The answer.
      The dancer.
      The ointment.
      The dream.

      Absorb it.
      Inflame it.
      Respect it.
      Molest it.

      Lard!
      Lard!

      The country, right now, it wants to be soothed.
      And told it doesn’t have to pay, or sacrifice, or learn.
      No one is over the hill, when the mountain comes to Mohammed.
      Lard! Lard! Lard!

      We love to eat.
      We love to pray.
      Mold over mind. Hooray!

      The Power of Lard!
      The Power of Lard!
      The Power of Lard!
      The Power of Lard!

      Every time I take a crap, it’s a cosmic experience.
      Religion, and chemicals are the keys to the future.
      Next time that we have sex, just pretend that I’m Ed Meese.
      The weasels have it down, man. It’s a whole new age.

      Lard!

      Which would you prefer? A computer, or a gun?
      The sharks outlived the dinosaurs, you know.

      (Feel)The Power of Lard!
      (Feel)The Power of Lard!
      (Feel)The Power of Lard!
      (Feel)The Power of Lard!

      Pity the poor trainer in the stable when the racehorse farts.
      Poison Oak really is the aphrodisiac of the gods.
      When people are asleep, we must all become alarm clocks.
      Hey, man. Life is my college.
      Eeeeeyoooowwwwww!!

      [Instrumental]

      It’s dental floss of the mind.
      Who will baby sit the baby sitters?

      Ever hear about the guy in New York, who’s dick fell of in the bath after he shot it full of coke?
      It’s okay to run out of butter in Zambia. Just smear squashed caterpillars on your toast.
      Waiter, there’s a terrorist in my soup.
      Which came first? Max Headroom, or Gerald Ford?
      Are you a man or are you a mouse?
      If you love your fun, die for it!

      Die for Lard!

      The Power of Lard!
      The Power of Lard!
      The Power of Lard!
      The Power of Lard!
      (continues in background)

      Who’s gonna baby sit the baby sitters?(4x)

      The Power of Lard!
      The Power of Lard!

      Avoid Everything(4x)
      .. Everything(8x)

      The Power of Lard!
      The Power of Lard!
      (continues in background)
      Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard!
      Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard!
      Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard!
      Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard! Lard!
      Lard!

    294. MajorBloodnok says:

      “Lard”? I thought the head of MI6’s code name was “C”.

    295. john king says:

      Dal Riata
      “Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends,
      We’re so glad you could attend,
      Come inside! Come inside!”

      Your after my heart.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VsifANR96s

    296. Clootie says:

      Morag

      The thing I detest most is the defence of “…I was only expressing an option and everybody attacked me”

      You made a vile attack, again, on an individual’s character. You were asked to provide evidence, again, and failed to do so.

      Do we really want a site were you can say the Earth is flat, Hitler and PolPot werea good men and we are just to sit back and accept an “opinion”.

      I think you owe Craig an apology.

    297. Grouse Beater says:

      Dr Ew:At the time of the shameful renditions through Pretwick, Green MSP Chris Ballance reported the matter to Strathlyde Police – i.e. that crimes against Scots Law and International Law were taking place on Scottish soil. He also raised the issue in Parliament, exhorting then First Minister Jack McConnell to intervene.

      I cannot perceive of Union Jack McConnell doing anything but genuflect to finger wagging of senior colleagues. They’d say, he doesn’t have to get explained the UK’s personal relationship enjoyed with the USA, or the need to corral terrorists – look at what happened at Glasgow airport, and so on, and so forth.

      Mandarin: Jack, you’re for the Lords. This isn’t the moment to ask awkward questions.
      McConnell: Aye, but no – it’s expected of me to put in a protest.
      Mandarin: About what?
      McConnell: Yi know, rendition flights.
      Mandarin: You’ve done that. Now, run along, dear boy.

    298. Colin Dunn says:

      I have to say that after reading this thread I’m none the wiser about what apparently horrible secrets there are about Craig Murray.

    299. CameronB Brodie says:

      MajorBloodnok
      😉

    300. Bob Sinclair says:

      All those questioning Morag’s views should be aware that she has been engaged in the push for independence for more years than a hell of a lot people on here.
      Whilst I may not agree with everything she has to say I do respect her opinion. It would be a real shame if we were all the same. That’s all.

    301. Grouse Beater says:

      Dr Ew:
      I would like to think the present Scottish Government would intervene to stop our nation being party to such cynical rights abuses were a similar situation to develop.

      Agreed – if rendition has stopped.

    302. donald anderson says:

      Re, Could you please, or someone, moderate the Ham Sandwich here? It is getting to the level of an Old Firm site, or the Hootsmon online.

      This is too much for my poor sensitivity. Also, I have never seen the Sound of Music. Is this a record?

    303. Clydebuilt says:

      Conan_the_Librarian says:
      10 December, 2014 at 11:00 pm

      “Notice how any anti-establishment organization seemed to split, or die out? There was even a Monty Python film about it.”

      Is this a natural process or is it assisted?

    304. Fred says:

      Boris, thanks for the low-down on Murphy.
      Regarding the juvenile nonsense on a thread about rendition, it’s time to grow up, nobody’s interested in who met who in some Edinburgh pub, self-regulation’s obviously what’s needed.
      Think before you post anymore bollox!!!

    305. Geoff Huijer says:

      The UK’s involvement in rendition flights disgust me & only make me more determined to point out to people less informed how horrific & hypocritical all the various shades of UK Government are.

      I would vote for Craig Murray (for Kirkcaldy) in a heartbeat.
      Equally, I would vote for Morag. I believe they each have a conscience which, frankly, seems more than most politicians.

      I don’t always agree with them. That’s life. I abhorr rumours & attempted character assassinations especially by the press. Unfortunately, the general public seem to believe whatever they read.

      I have had many faults in my time; I have made amends and can only move on. If someone wants to hold a grudge then that is fine; it’s their problem. The likes of Blair, however, stick doggedly to the ‘it wisnae me’ or ‘I have no regrets’ line – denial. It is this type of person I have no time for. They are rigid in their self-loving.

      PS Have saved for months to get Morag’s book (Adequately Explained By Stupidity) and can’t wait to get started on it. Craig’s Markland book will be next.

    306. Craig Murray says:

      Ghillie,

      I have never, ever said anything about Morag anywhere, except to respond to a small percentage of her ferocious attacks on me. I know next to nothing about Morag and have absolutely nothing against her. She may be a lovely woman who, for no reason I understand, detests me.

      But that detestation seems hard to fathom. Am I supposed to stay completely silent when she supports an accusation saying that I said I want thirty Israelis dead, which I do not think I ever said and which nobody can source?

      Further she states directly that the Labour Party’s smears against me, even if untrue, should debar me from public life. Really? Do you, Ghillie, really believe that the Labour Party should be able to tell lies about anybody and that should debar them from public life?

      That seems a most extraordinary thing to believe.

      I am not perfect. I never said I was. But my sex life has only ever been conducted between consenting adults. Does John Knox still control this country so that anybody of whose sexual morals Morag disapproves is barred from public life?

      Finally, imperfect as I am, nobody can deny my dedication to Scottish independence and work for it. As I said, I have never, ever initiated any discussion of Morag. Is it really helpful to anybody for Morag continually to use Wings to criticise a fellow Yes campaigner, in a curiously unspecific way? Once or twice maybe – I am perfectly open to criticism – but this continual vendetta?

    307. boris says:

      This is a family site. Auntie Morag and Uncle Craig can fall out, (if only for the length of the thread) if they wish. It’ll be OK again later. Mornin’ all.

      Boris

    308. crisiscult says:

      @Colin Dunn

      what I think you’re missing out on is just gossip and distraction from the important issues, which are that Craig Murray really got as close as you can get to embarrassing the establishment without mysteriously having a heart attack and his cold naked body being found in a house of ill repute. My post earlier, for example, hints at the gossiping ad hominem that was supposed to make one forget the issue at hand, which was ‘how proud to you feel to work for the UK and its immoral activities?’

    309. Betty Boop says:

      @ Paula Rose, 7:11pm 10/12/14

      Will there be any SNP candidate that the UKaynats won’t attempt to smear and vilify?

      No.

      @ Morag

      Morag, I understand that Craig Murray can be somewhat less than pc. He has seen and heard things which, thank heavens, many of us have not. He has a deep abhorrence of injustice, unfairness and the violence perpetrated upon the powerless. He cares. That makes him very passionate and, quite frankly, that is what is missing in spades at Westminster along with compassion.

      We need all sorts in parliament and his knowledge of the workings of the state will be valuable too. If we end up with more SNP/indy supporting (or should I simply say Scotland supporting) MPs, many will be quite green in that place. We need some who have already felt the wrath of the Establishment.

    310. CameronB Brodie says:

      Does anyone actually believe that this barbaric conduct is a recent phenomena of U.S. foreign policy?

      They have been operating ‘client states’ and carrying out torture and terrorism around the globe, for at least a century. They had a lot of catching up to do, as Britain had at least a couple of centuries head start on them. Go look it up for yourselves.

      When will Scotland control it’s own foreign policy?

    311. Grouse Beater says:

      Donald: I have never seen the Sound of Music. Is this a record?

      Eh, sorry to disappoint. I too have managed to avoid The Sound of Mucus – and consider it a badge of honour.

    312. R-type Grunt says:

      @ Craig Murray

      You know, I’ve been reading this thread since I got up this morning and hadn’t been able to work out what all the fuss was about regarding yourself. Now I’ve refreshed the page and read your comment posted at 10:22.

      I’d vote for you in a heartbeat. Bring it on.

    313. Luigi says:

      Ach I’ve had enough of this nonsense. It’s tiresome. I would vote for Craig if I had the chance, but I would probably also vote for Morag! The independence movement needs strong characters (and boy do we have them)!

      Yes, this causes unpleasant friction at times, but if you want to see the effect of stuffing your seats with brainless robots that say “how high” when told to jump, you only have to look at what it’s done to the Labour party.

    314. Author_al says:

      Lots of off topic bickering on this thread, which diminishes the impact of Stu’s post. Anyone who is going to reprise sent the SNP doesn’t have to be perfect but does need to concentrate on the political issues, highlighting perhaps the failure of Smith (and intervention undemocratic tinkering by the cabinet), the rise of food banks, the asset stripping, etc. the lies of Jim Murphy afford Yessers lots of opportunities to put the record straight. We need to get Stu’s well researched facts and posts out to a wider audience. That is the challenge. Why is there nothing in the media on Devo Mince? It has not been delivered to Scotland’s satisfaction so has to be challenged. I’d be happy to contributes to leaflet fund where this site’s posts can been summarised and distributed…

    315. fred blogger says:

      Morag
      ‘Labour has called on SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon to prevent Mr Murray being selected as a candidate because of his remarks about No voters.’ https://archive.today/ObbWs
      apparently the holier then thou, butter wouldn’t melt in their mouth’s, labour party still believe they have influence and power.

    316. Mark Wilkinson says:

      Morag, you are Tasmina Ahmed Sheikh and I claim my £5.

      A friend in the Falkirk branch told me that Craig Murray was subjected to these smears at a local branch meeting. He said that Mr Murray was more than happy to talk to the branch members and defend himself, which apparently the convenor wasn’t keen on allowing. It would perhaps appear that outspoken but popular candidates such as Mr Murray who have gravitated to SNP through YES will be overlooked for long term appointments from within the existing heirarchy such as Mrs Ahmed-Sheikh. From speaking to others involved in the selection process and listening to their experiences I would say there is a level of coordination involved.

      One friend I spoke to told me of her vetting where she was given the question ‘if the SNP were to enter into a coalition with Labour and the party decided to support the implementation of the bedroom tax, how would you vote?’ The question though ficticious is clearly a divisive one. Would you stand up for something you believe in or would you back the party. The sad thing is just how many people have said they would obey the party line.

      I believe the more independently minded candidates would in many cases go with their morals, which is why they will no doubt fail their vetting. If that is the case then when you see your newly minted candidate you can be in doubt they said yes to the bedroom tax and yes to abandoning their morals for political power. To be honest if I wanted that type of politician I would simply vote Labour.

      Mr Murray is also seeking to stand in Airdrie where a candidate of his standing could do well against Scotlands worst MP Pamela Nash. Miss Nash was a former political assistant to John Reid and has no experience of the working world. It’s surprising then that Alex Neils personal assistant Neil Gray is being put forward as a candidate when he is in the exact same mould as Miss Nash.

      I expect Mr Murray and others like him, will be faced with a weighted vetting process to ensure that old hands or their friends become Westminster candidates.

      So much for that bright new dawn.

    317. G H Graham says:

      A few minutes ago, on the Google splash page, I typed “Morag’s vinegar blog” & after clicking on the suggested hyperlink, it brought to me to these pages.

    318. Clootie says:

      I think many are still missing the point. In several days time Craig will go before a CA group seeking nomination. The majority of those attending and voting will read Wings. To place idoubt on a persons good character at this time in such a public forum as Wings could damage their career. It could also deny Scotland of a great candidate.

      This is one of our own who did amazing work during the Referendum. Reputation damage at this stage could have a significantly greater impact than normal. If you are prepared to damage someone’s name, their career and future income then justify it.

      This is not trivial. It is an attempt to damage a life and career and should be seen in that light.

    319. Alan McHarg says:

      Independence…Independence…Independence!

    320. Robert Kerr says:

      Craig Murray on Jack Straw lies broadcast ONLY on RT.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk

      If anyone is interested Google Dr Morag Kerr. First up is Wikispooks.

      Morag is not our enemy. She may be her own enemy but let’s focus on what matters.

    321. Morag says:

      Ghillie, thank you, that was nice of you.

      There’s a lot of revisionism going on here, and I’m being accused of all sorts that I have not actually done. I’m not going back over it again, anyone who’s interested can read the thread for themselves and see what I actually said and judge whether it justifies this pile-on.

      I think we’ll just have to wait and see what happens. The SNP’s vetting procedures are quite thorough (so long as the candidate doesn’t lie to them, as Bill Walker did) and discriminating, on the other hand they have a lot of positions to fill and there can only be so many current councillors who are both willing and capable of moving to Westminster.

      I don’t have an actual say in this, and neither do the people praising him to the skies here. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

    322. crisiscult says:

      @Clootie

      Well said. Who was it said great minds talk about ideas, average minds about events, small minds about people?

      I’m not a member of the SNP and don’t live in Airdrie, but I’d vote for Murray, although I went to school with someone called Craig Murray and he stole my action man machine gun so I hope it’s not the same guy, in which case, I won’t vote for him.

    323. fred blogger says:

      apparently there are 5 academics telling msp’s what they think of the smith commission report now?

    324. Morag and Craig, I’d vote fir both of you in a heartbeat! Both of you are a credit to the cause of Scottish Independence.

    325. Morag says:

      Oh, Robert, I wondered when someone would find Patrick Haseldine’s character assassination of me. He’s someone with an interest in Lockerbie who has his own pretty way-out theory of what happened. He attacks anyone who doesn’t go along with his pet theory. He’s been on the wrong end of libel proceedings in England from someone else he had a go at. I wouldn’t be surprised if John Ashton follows suit (Patrick has repeatedly accused him of being a charlatan and worse), although you know what they say, never sue a man of straw.

      Patrick was banned from Robert Black’s blog for declaring that he blamed him (Bob) for Megrahi being convicted. Though I think he has commented again – Bob is notoriously soft-hearted.

      I’ve occasionally considered taking some action about that defamatory web page, but on the whole I tend the the view that Patrick is so obviously unhinged that it’s better just to ignore it all. He sometimes emails choice selections round an eclectic group of people, which is good for a laugh if nothing else.

    326. Derick fae Yell says:

      It is difficult to distinguish certain interventions from outright trolling.

    327. YESGUY says:

      RFJ.

      Are you a troll ?

      What the hell does the Darien scheme have to do with todays politics. I smell a unionist. What’s your angle? Do you wish to remind us we all played a part ? Can you point out when and where ? The difference between YESSERS and the rest is we look FORWARD, not back and we have nothing to be ashamed off.

      Waken up this is the 21st century.

      And i will not apologise for something my great great great grandad did.

    328. YESGUY says:

      And yes i changed your initials around.

      right fu**in jester.

    329. Robert Kerr says:

      You’re welcome Morag.

      It’s not just SLAB who are tribal!

    330. Grouse Beater says:

      Morag: I don’t have an actual say in this

      Here’s Grouse Beater’s moral for today:

      Never put in writing anything about an individual that you are not prepared to say in person direct to that individual.

      A committee has a set of criteria they must follow for selection, as well as sharp questions for the candidate. The task is theirs. People for or against should write to the committee asking that their opinion be taken into consideration, thus avoiding public despute, or unwarranted blemish on a candidate’s character and record.

      An anology:
      In the affairs of house renovation and new builds your local officer in the council’s Planning department knows the rules and regulations, dispensing with objections that are not material, considering anything that is properly material. Vast justification of why you think your neighbour’s house extension will look like a pile of poo and bring down the quality of the environment is totally needless and a waste of time. If objections are outwith planning regulations they will be dismissed or ignored. Keep it simple and to the point.

      Above all, avoid personal remarks.

      After all, you have to live with your neighbour for years to come.

      Warm regards

      Yours – too sensible for his shoes.

      Grouse Beater 🙂

    331. Dusa82 says:

      Craig – and Andy Myles too – had better hope that the Unionist parties don’t find a copy of the Campaign for Social Drinking’s policy statements. I might be prepared to sell my copy.

    332. Taranaich says:

      “Just following orders” didn’t excuse the Auschwitz guards, why do Nats think that they have nothing to do with Scotland’s cheerful participation in and benefit from centuries of Empire?

      We’re not the ones expunging records of the Empire’s atrocities. We’re not the ones who are perpetuating atrocities by keeping the Chagossians in poverty and squalor after deporting them from their own homes. And, of course, we’re not the ones who facilitated extraordinary rendition on one hand, while lied through our teeth about wanting “democracy” with the other.

      That’s the difference here: we want to own up to that shameful past. Take responsibility for our part in it, as responsible countries do. The Britnats in the UK government want to erase all trace of it, pretend it didn’t happen.

      It’s particularly interesting when Union came about in the first place because of Scotland’s attempts to establish its own overseas colonies. Had Darien succeeded and Scotland been an imperial power in its own right, would you be so quick to condemn?

      Yes, we would, just as I’d hope we all condemn things like Glencoe and the Highland Clearances – atrocities in which Scottish people, after all, were complicit.

    333. chalks says:

      Wow, this thread fairly degenerated quickly.

    334. Al says:

      OT – More hate-bias from BBC-Labour. They give this interview with Alex Salmond the headline “Alex Salmond: SNP could work with Sinn Fein”.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30424810

      This is a disgusting attempt by the BBC at dog whistle sectarianism. The interview was clearly conducted with the aim of getting exactly that headline but watching the whole interview rather than just reading the headline shows that Alex is taking a much more balanced and moderate line than the headline suggests.

    335. crisiscult says:

      @Taranaich

      I’m reminded of a sign that was part of a display in the Kelvingrove Art Galleries in Glasgow from a chap from a museum in south East England – the photo depicted an atrocity committed by the UK’s army in India, and the appended notice from this gentleman seemed to be making a similar point to the one you’re replying to, i.e. along the lines that Scotland shouldn’t be allowed to become independent and flee it’s imperial past as part of the UK. I took a photo of the sign, so extraneous and incongruous did the political message seem in the overall context of the art galleries. It does show a reasonably common theme amongs Britnats though – that those of us alive today living in Scotland need to be shackled forever to the activities of years of empire, whether we have ancestry linking us to those times, and to profiting from those times or not. We are all forever guilty by association.

    336. YESGUY says:

      John King. 7021am

      Very well said John. Respect and a big thumbs up.

      Morag

      Has her views and so do we. It’s a blog with anon characters all expressing their view.

      Cameron B.

      Agree to disagree please we all want the same thing . if you don’t like – ignore. that’s what we do in life.

      Regarding the rendition flights. The more you found out about the UK the more you feel uneasy , Yeuk indeed.

      Grouse.

      “Never put in writing anything about an individual that you are not prepared to say in person direct to that individual.”

      Trolls don’t do face to face. But i like this quote. Ah in an ideal world…

    337. Xaracen says:

      @Morag

      “Well, I’m not toeing the party line if I don’t agree with it. Get over it.”

      Good for you.

      I’ve never commented at JREF but it was you and your posts there that awoke my interest around four or five years ago in Scottish politics, and essentially turned me into a strong YESser, ultimately encouraging me to deliver leaflets and newspapers for the SNP, and even help man a Yes stall. (Still can’t believe I did that!)

      You have always come over to me as the very epitome of honest, careful, evidence-based thinking, and I have seen nothing in these exchanges in this or any other WoS posts to make me change my mind.

      I hope you keep on keeping on.

    338. Morag says:

      Good grief, I never thought these JREF posts would convince a lurker! I gave up posting there a few months ago because I got completely tired of the attacks from English posters who turned into vindictive Britnats at the mere mention of the referendum. That one of these was the site admin didn’t help. I thought it was taking up time and energy I couldn’t spare.

      CraigB is still plugging on though, with some others occasionally joining in. I feel a bit guilty for deserting him. Joolz appeared after the referendum and said she’d been busy campaigning for Yes though, which was nice because she started as a devo-maxer and I’d wondered if she ever moved completely to Yes, or if she had, had then been seduced by the Vow.

      I think one of the replies to me there when I first linked to Wings might be the first recorded incidence of someone trying to dismiss Stu because he lives in Bath. Seriously, the reply I got was, “do you realise that guy has spent most of his adult life lliving and working in England?” – as if they thought that meant something. (I just said, “yeah, me too, what’s your point?”)

    339. Mark Wilkinson says:

      @clootie
      I agree with you 100%. The problem for me is that these attacks are being orchestrated from WITHIN the SNP!

    340. Dal Riata says:

      @Ghillie

      “There was a lynch mob out there last night.”

      Was there? Where? Didn’t see one. Hyperbole much? Don’t be talking such utter pish.

      “Because someone expressed their well reasoned concerns about a public figure who we, the voters, may be asked to trust.”

      “expressed their well reasoned concerns about a public figure” Really? So just what are these “well reasoned concerns” because I sure as hell don’t know what these are. Maybe you know? If you do, then please do enlighten us all.

      “Throughout, Morag allowed that others may have a different opinion to her own.”

      LOL! Really? How long have you been a member/lurker on this site, a week? What you saw from Morag last night is but a slightly watered down version of her smearing of Craig Murray which has gone on – on this site – since the early days of this site’s existence. It was not because of this one thread that I, myself got riled, it is the constant attacks on Murray for no discernible reason that occur each and every time his name is mentioned above the line, and below the line. Personally, I felt it was time for me to speak up about it having kept my counsel for so long.

      “That courtesy was not returned, even by the man himself.”

      I think you will find that Mr. Murray comes below the line here most times when Morag uses this open public forum to attack him (for who knows what). In fact, he is here again just today asking Morag to come forward with her reasons for the constant smears against him… and, yet again, she refuses to answer Mr. Murray directly. Where is your “courtesy” now?

      “And in return a bunch of posters on Wings were rude, unkind and obnoxious. You know who you are. Shame on you.”

      “rude”, “unkind” and “obnoxious” Really, now? Hyperbole much, FFS.

      “Shame on you.” No, shame on *you* for jumping in feet first into something you don’t have a clue about.

    341. Xaracen says:

      @Morag

      I bet I’m not the only lurker who was convinced by you, and others like you.

      It’s clear that only a very small percentage of readers of blogs actually comment on them, and I think a major factor is one’s own level of confidence in the subject matter. I comment only rarely here, never did at all at JREF, but on another completely unrelated forum (graphics) I commented often enough and helpfully enough on one of the subforums of interest to me at the time to be invited to moderate it, and I did so happily for several years. That was because I knew I was actually making a useful contribution that others appreciated.

      It is the quality of the arguments and the perceived integrity of the arguers that lurkers like me* pay attention to, and it doesn’t take that long to recognize which subset of commenters are the key ones who are offering the most useful and interesting information and making the most sense out of it.

      * Well, I can’t speak for lurkers not like me!

    342. Morag says:

      Well, some people have read what I wrote, and understood it. Others are continuing to attack a completely manufactured position. It’s educational, actually.

      At the JREF forum (now ISF), while there’s still backbiting and agenda-pushing, people do seem more in the habit of reading what others have actually said, and coming to conclusions based on the actual evidence. And then there’s that referendum thread….

      I suppose it takes all sorts.

    343. Jack Murphy says:

      I wonder if Jim Murphy MP was Secretary of State for Scotland [where Prestwick is] at the times of the stop-offs for torture flights.
      Someone could maybe ask him tomorrow when the Scotland Labour leadership results are announced.

    344. Joybell says:

      Many, many, many moons ago Morag was so rude to me on Wings that I was almost tempted to vote NO. Some people seem to think that just because a person is an avid Yesser they can somehow be excused.

      I noticed that she tried to bully Grouse Beater off the blog, but he is made of stronger stuff than I am.

      No doubt I will be accused of being a troll, even though I have contributed to every appeal, and will probably do so again if Stu needs more money.

    345. Morag says:

      That’s simply not true. Grouse Beater has in the past attacked me, though not today. One of the things he said was that I had sent him an email telling him to stay off Wings. I have done no such thing. As I have no idea who he is, and I don’t have his email address, it’s not possible that I could have done that, even if I’d wanted to. Which I don’t.

      I think you need to get your facts straight. Also to link to any post where you claim I’ve been rude to you, because, you know, people can claim anything and sometimes do.

      (For example, Cameron’s gripe turned out to relate to a post where I lost my temper after he accused me of being a covert intelligence agent, or a “useful idiot”. Nice.)

    346. Grouse Beater says:

      Joybell:
      She tried to bully Grouse Beater off the blog but he’s made of stronger stuff than I am.

      Sterner stuff? You bet! 🙂

      Sad to hear of your disaffecttion. Stay strong, avoid sociopaths and harpies, and don’t lose sight of our cause.

      My talisman against bullying? The ‘Use and Abuse of Social Websites by Government and Individuals’ my thesis – a study of various sites over three years monitoring trolls and shills that garnered a standard list of classic abuse tactics, and has enough left for an encyclopaedia on the subject.

      What did I learn?

      My antagonist is not the poster before me, but the stalker behind.

    347. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ Morag
      Well you are sometimes useful and quite often an idiot. Hows that?

    348. CameronB Brodie says:

      Should I have refreshed before posting? 🙂

    349. Grouse Beater says:

      Morag:
      One of the things he said was that I had sent him an email telling him to stay off Wings. I have done no such thing

      I left the identity of the culprit out for good reasons.

      ‘Attack?’ You really need to choose your words carefully. You expend a lot of energy wastefully shadow boxing.

    350. Valerie says:

      @Morag, not an attack, just an observation from someone relatively new – last 8 months.

      You must be exhausted, or you have limitless reserves to keep this going.
      Generally, people like me, who want fairness, are not wantingyou to shut up, but to exercise discretion on a potential SNP candidate, and let due process take place, without the kind of vague shit stirring we get every day from the MSM.

      Finally, there has to come a point when you have to ask yourself, why are you the common denominator,going back a long time, with people feeling very upset.

      I think you should take up the suggestion of your own Blog, because, by your own admission, you are that poster girl for, ‘there’s someone on the internet who’s wrong’ so you would enjoy the cut and thrust.

      Personally, as a member of SNP myself, I will hold my counsel about any PPC, rather than risk spiking anything.

      I have wished Craig luck in his pursuit of his path.

      I often have to let things go, when trying to work with a group. I was often characterised as a hawk, rather than a dove on work projects, so I’m very independently minded, but sometimes you have to step away.

    351. Morag says:

      Hmmm. Calling someone a troll.

      I do remember a poster who once appeared out of nowhere and announced that she was an elderly grandmother who’d been a passionate supporter of independence all her life but she believed someone had been rude to her on the internet so she was going to vote No now.

      That sort of troll?

    352. Morag says:

      Valierie, I only intended to make one or two comments. If you read them, they’re nothing particularly aggressive. However they sparked off an astonishing attack. Yes, that got me angry. And every time I refreshed the page, someone else had appeared to have a go.

      It’s becoming a popular pastime on Wings. I’m the one person who’s not allowed to disagree with the majority opinion. Well I’m not going away just because I’m being bullied.

      Yuo know, sometimes a group of people single out someone and then take every opportunity to pile in. They could drive me away, but it’s not happening.

    353. Morag says:

      Grouse Beater, if you know who sent you the email then you know it wasn’t me. Why did you imply that it was?

      I can’t make you out sometimes.

    354. Grouse Beater says:

      Off topic … Ewen McGregor is to play Jeesus in a movie.

      There you have it!

      A Scot is good enough to be the Son of God but not to have his own kingdom.

      🙂

    355. Morag says:

      Jings. Jesus was a middle eastern Jew. Who thought Ewan McGregor was a good ethnic fit for that part?

    356. AuldA says:

      @Morag O/T (but is there a thread anymore ? 🙂 ):

      I posted a message for you on Off-Topic. Did you get it?

      @Grouse Beater:

      A Scot is good enough to be the Son of God but not to have his own kingdom.

      That’s because God is a shareholder of Westminster… 😛

    357. Stoker says:

      Jack Murphy says:

      “I wonder if Jim Murphy MP was Secretary of State for Scotland [where Prestwick is] at the times of the stop-offs for torture flights. Someone could maybe ask him tomorrow when the Scotland Labour leadership results are announced.”

      Jack,
      Secretary of State for Scotland:

      John Reid: 1999-2001
      Helen Liddell: 2001-2003
      Alistair Darling: 2003-2006
      Douglas Alexander: 2006-2007
      Des Browne: 2007-2008
      Jim Murphy: 2008-2010

      Interactive CIA Rendition Flights Link:
      https://archive.today/MeC6V

    358. Ghillie says:

      Hello Craig!

      I don’t know anything about your past. And i have heard good things about you too, so good luck in all your endevours.

      My concerns last night, and ongoing, are to do with the tone of response of some of the posters here.

    359. Grouse Beater says:

      AuldA: That’s because God is a shareholder of Westminster.

      True. The English aye ever God is on their side. 🙂

    360. Morag says:

      My concerns last night, and ongoing, are to do with the tone of response of some of the posters here.

      Indeed. If people had merely said, I don’t agree I think he will be a good candidate (and here’s why) – as indeed a number of people did and I appreciated these constructive posts – this would have gone nowhere.

      The problem is the attacks along the lines of “how dare you say anything negative about someone I admire, you’re a horrible person”. And so it goes on.

    361. Dal Riata says:

      @Morag

      “However they sparked off an astonishing attack.”

      An astonishing attack? You must have some sociopathic delusions if you think that people asking you to put up or shut up about your constant smearing of Craig Murray is “an astonishing attack”. Every time someone disagrees with your viewpoints, accusations and aggressive attitude you say you are being ‘attacked’. You’re very typical of certain people one comes across on internet forums and the like who have very forthright and ‘I’m always right!’ views that, when questioned or called out, go into a strop and rant on about being ‘abused’ and ‘attacked’. It’s selfish, inconsiderate, disingenuous and hyperbolicly over-dramatic to say the least.

      “And every time I refreshed the page, someone else had appeared to have a go.”

      You really, really should take some time to question yourself why it is you have this seemingly uncanny ability to annoy and irritate so many people.

      “It’s becoming a popular pastime on Wings.”

      No, it isn’t. It is not some unsaid groupthink that it’s one in, all in when disagreements arise. But, again as said above, take some time out to assess just what it is that you say, and the way that you say it that causes so much ire.

      “I’m the one person who’s not allowed to disagree with the majority opinion.”

      Childish rubbish. And well you know it.

      “Well I’m not going away just because I’m being bullied.”

      Christ on a bike. Being bullied? No, you’re not. That’s just untrue. Again, it’s typical of certain people who get called out online to cry of being ‘bullied’, ‘attacked’ and ‘abused’.

      And nobody is trying to make you ‘go away’. Being asked to put up or shut up about Craig Murray is not telling you to go away.

      “You know, sometimes a group of people single out someone and then take every opportunity to pile in.”

      This is you putting yourself up as being some kind of special case, free from any criticism of your ‘I’m always right! views. If you believe that you are exempt from criticism then, well, I just don’t know what to say, to be honest.

      “They could drive me away, but it’s not happening.”

      And good for you! I repeat, nobody is trying to drive you away.

      By the way, Craig Murray comes BTL to ask you to spell out just what your ‘difficulties’ are regarding him every time you make assertions about him. Like yesterday. And today. So then, why don’t you answer him? a) He deserves the courtesy of a reply since he is the one you are smearing. And b) Then the issue could be settled once and for all, and for us all to see, as to just what your problems are with Mr. Murray.

    362. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The article heading this tread is an important one, and there have been some good comments and links.

      But who is going to wade through 360+ comments to assemble the illuminating discourse? Approximately 50 comments are from Morag. At least the same, possibly a lot more, are responding to her O/T gripes.

      That’s what’s pissing people off – valuable discussion about important topics is being swamped. And let’s face it – new readers are not likely to keep reading past 30, then 50, 100 comments on the off-chance of finding half a dozen which are relevant. They’ll move on to another thread, nay another site altogether. And when they do? a lot won’t bother coming back.

      Depressing.

    363. Morag says:

      Dal Riata, I’ve explained the reasons for my concerns more than once in the thread above. Some people have commented that they agree, or that they understand my concerns nevertheless disagree. Which is fine.

      And then there are others who repeatedly insist I haven’t explained myself, no matter how often I do. I don’t know how often you want me to repeat myself, frankly.

      Craig Murray is never seen here unless someone (OK me) has said something critical about him. This would be maybe four occasions over many months. Each time he magically appears in the thread and plaintively asks what he’s done wrong. I wonder why that happens.

      Maybe he can’t read either, I don’t know.

    364. Gallowglass says:

      Frankly, you’re all ruining this place.

      It goes beyond ‘Morag’.

      It started going tits up in the week or two in the run up the referendum.

      When I started to voice some doubts about the outcome, and unfortunately my fears were right, I was told to ‘fuck off’ ‘who are you’ ‘you’re not welcome etc’. Demands of explaining who I was, and if certain posters didn’t recognise you that was it. You weren’t apart of the clique.

      If it keeps going the way it’s going I’d rather no comments on articles at all, or I’ll plainly stop reading the contributions. It’s no better than that shitheap the Scotsman at times.

      This bickering amongst people who should be in agreement with the ultimate aim is pathetic.

    365. Paula Rose says:

      Tsk tsk – I’m getting a bit hacked off with the inconvenience of a certain herd.

      One of the joys of Wings is that it is full of cats – and we all know how hard they are to herd.

      Please be civil, disagree all you want – but remember this site is widely read and many of us have met each other and have respect for those we have differences of opinion with.

      Candidates for the SNP may not be to everyone’s taste, but I’m damned certain that the atrocities committed by the USA and UK governments are to nobody’s taste here.

    366. Stoker says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      “That’s what’s pissing people off – valuable discussion about important topics is being swamped.”

      Amen!

    367. Stakhanovite says:

      Morag reminds me of that chicken, with the shell on it’s head- what was it- “Calimero”?

    368. Morag says:

      Ian’s quite right. I expressed an opinion, which could have been quickly defused by saying, I don’t agree with you, despite what you say I think Craig Murray would make a good candidate. I’d have said, you may be right, we’ll see what transpires, and that would have been that.

      Instead I was piled on with an avalanche of “how dare you say that!” and repeated attacks on my character and motives. I was told I was jealous because I wanted to be a candidate (nonsense, if I’d wanted that I’d have put myself forward as we were all invited to), I was jealous because Craig Murray knows more about Lockerbie than I do (no, he really doesn’t, but we don’t disagree about the case anyway), that I was a plagiarist (nobody can write anything valid about Lockerbie without going over the evidence Paul Foot laid out in his absolutely seminal 2001 pamphlet) and more.

      None of that was even remotely called-for, in response to what I wrote. I’m now being told that the attacks on me are all my fault (what, for having a different opinion than some people, or for not curling up and dying when I was attacked?), and that I should go away.

      I suggest that the way to avoid threads degenerating like this is to disagree politely, and move on, rather than descend into the sort of personal abuse I was treated to. Try it sometime, people.

    369. SquareHaggis says:

      After trawling thru this hefty thread I think I’ve discovered the true definition of torture.

      @CameronB

      Extraordinary rendition at Lard O’clock 😉

    370. Wee Jonny says:

      I was speaking to a girl in a club last night.
      I said “Your eyes remind me of the stars in the sky”.
      She said “Why, is that because they sparkle?”
      I said “No, it’s because they’re really far apart”

      True Story.
      (Oof, I jist wanted ti pit a smile on ab’dees pusses. Hope it did)

    371. Graeme Doig says:

      Stoker

      Has to be the last comment on this thread.

      Oh no that’ll be this one. Anyway amen indeed.

    372. Paula Rose says:

      Certain newspapers have celebrity interview thingies where they ask the celeb who they would invite to their ideal dinner party, if I was one, apart from Dusty Springfield and Joe Strummer I’d have Morag and Craig Murray xx

    373. Stoker says:

      Alan Mackintosh says:
      “Not just Prestwick, the rendition flights also used Wick…”

      Correct, Alan, there was at least one i can remember reading about which used Wick in 2004 – so there’s possibly more.

      I don’t know, however, if it was just a fuel stop or was highly suspected that the craft contained detainees?

      That might be revealed in the info (link) i left in a post to Jack Murphy, further up the thread at 5.21pm (today).

    374. Author_al says:

      In 2009 the CIA torture flights landed at Prestwick. Jim Murphy was Secretary For Scotland in the Labour cabinet at the time. SNP were against this… Did Jim M speak publicly?

      https://archive.today/szZmr

    375. Stoker says:

      @ Graeme Doig,

      Chance would be a fine thing mate.
      😉

    376. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If I’ve done this correctly it should be a new blog article by Richie Venton – sorry, it’s O/T, but no more-so than most comments in this thread!

      https://archive.today/

    377. Grouse Beater says:

      Stoker: Chance would be a fine thing mate.

      Hi Stoker! How’s Bram these days? (Just joshing.) 🙂

      Hope all is well with you.

      If I’ve an opinion on the inevitable splurge of anger that accompanies one particular poster’s appearance it is this, no one can expect a website to be run on their terms.

      And on the subject of torture…

      The rendition issue is troubling because torture as a political weapon is rife the world over. The USA portrays itself as the defender of democracy but in reality is the protector of its economic and imperial interests at the end of a machine gun barrel.

      We have seen a mild but pernicious form practised here. It’s called telling a nation their culture and hopes are garbage. Hammered home enough times the target soon begins to think itself exactly that, chronically substandard.

      By tieing a country’s economic hands behind its back you can ensure a nation remains passive and compliant … but only for so long.

    378. Grouse Beater says:

      Dick Chaney, the man who kept his shares in Haliburton when his adminisitration awarded the company a billion dollar contract without competition to concrete over Iraq, says the material in the torture report is ‘full of crap.’

      Well, he would say that, wouldn’t he?

      Anybody fancy a bet on him being indicted for crimes against humanity? No?

    379. Stoker says:

      @ Grouse Beater,
      I’m well mate, hope all is tickety-boo with you.
      🙂
      And too true, Barney McGrew, too true.
      😉

      Well, am away to put another log on the fire.

      Goodnight all.

    380. CameronB Brodie says:

      SquareHaggis
      What? So you don’t appreciate ‘hardcore art’? 🙂

    381. Rock says:

      Ghillie,

      “So Rock, should all us Yes voters use our ‘common sense, accept the “landslide” majority opinion and shut up on’ Independence?”

      55% against 45% is not a ‘landslide’ by any measure.

      The 55% was achieved at worst by rigging the ballot, at best by the most dishonest campaign ever in a ‘democratic’ vote, the Electoral Commission being part and parcel of the Better Together propaganda machine.

      So no, we should not shut up but shout even louder.

      That is why so many posters here, myself included, believe that Craig Murray would be someone who would not be afraid to shout out the bitter truth at Westminster.

      Unlike those lawyers who put on a show but not a single one has the guts to speak out publicly against the complicity in torture of the likes of Straw and Bliar.

      Pravda GB and the rest of the unionist media endlessly smeared Alex Salmond and will smear anyone who is a threat to the union (our Stuart included).

      If there is one person who can fight back openly and fearlessly, it is Craig Murray.

      As for Morag, on the very day that Craig Murray was vindicated, she couldn’t resist having a dig at him because of a personal disliking, the reason for which she has not clarified.

      Many posters didn’t like this and it was the final straw that broke the camel’s back – Morag has been making arrogant comments against other posters for a long time.

      Her considerable knowledge and experience would be better appreciated if she could put them across in a humble manner.

    382. Rock says:

      Morag,

      “I’ve been accused of plagiarising someone else’s work”

      That was a serious accusation.

      Could you categorically state that the book was all your own work?

    383. SquareHaggis says:

      @CameronB,

      You kiddin’ – I loved it, well timed and lyrically spot on.
      Would be great to see that performed – you should get out to one of you local Slam gigs and test it out, it would go down a storm 😉

    384. Morag says:

      Yes. Except for the illustrations, most of which were taken from the forensic and court productions, and a few which were drawn for me by Adam Larson. I paid Adam for his work. I stole two screen captures from the BBC iPlayer too, and used one photo I took myself.

      Paul Foot, God rest his soul, wrote the single most important work about the Lockerbie trial that has ever been written. I think I called it “seminal” in the book. I’ve been telling everyone who will listen that they need to read it, since about 2009. And that they need to pay the Eye their fiver for it and not swipe it for free, because it’s worth it. However, he wrote it in 2001, and it’s a pamphlet of only 32 pages.

      If covers an astonishing amount of ground, both for its length, and considering it was published only a couple of months after the trial ended. It is amazingly short of errors (only one serious one that I’ve noted, that is saying that 55 items of luggage were counted off flight KM180 at Frankfurt (which if true would have killed the Crown case stone dead) when in fact they weren’t counted at that stage.)

      One theory in the pamphlet doesn’t stand up to examination of the timings, and Foot himself mentioned that in a different article a couple of years later. And he didn’t understand the Frankfurt baggage transfer records properly or he wouldn’t have regurgitated the Damascus flight theory without questioning it, but then I don’t think anybody understood that aspect of the evidence until I looked at the primary statements and baggage records in 2012. Even then, some information just doesn’t exist.

      You may gather that I admire that work enormously. Foot was the first person to spot the importance of Bedford’s evidence, really seriously. (I don’t think Bill Taylor thought it through at all.) He included the vital nugget of information in his text, that Bedford first volunteered his story on 3rd January 1989, whereas nobody thought twice about Malta until August.

      That was the jumping off point for my work. Because I kept going on about it, I was given access to a lot of evidence that Foot, if he considered, didn’t include in his work. Most importantly I had the entire set of the Frankfurt and Heathrow statements and paper records, as well as all the forensic photos of the damaged suitcases.

      From that I was able to answer the first question that Foot’s article had left hanging, which was, what did the baggage handler who put the online luggage in the container say when they asked him if he’d moved any of the interline items? My hypothesis was that he had said no, and that if you knew that, and you had the rest of the information that hadn’t been presented in court (so Foot himself hadn’t seen it), the case Bedford described would reconcile as the bomb.

      Finally, and this only happened in 2012, I was able to put together the “suitcase jigsaw” that showed the real position of the bomb suitcase. On the bottom of the stack, with the left-hand side elevated into the angle. None of that is in Foot’s work at all, for the simple reason that he didn’t have the evidence. He only had what was presented in court, but I was given a ton of stuff the defence had which wasn’t shown to the court.

      Foot’s work is extremely important background for what I did, but it’s background. It’s part of the foundation I built on. My book runs to 220 pages, covers a lot of ground Foot didn’t set foot on (!), and includes many illustrations not in his pamphlet.

      If you think that’s plagiarism, then every history book ever written after the first one is plagiarism, because later, more detailed and authoritative works inevitably build on the same basic facts as the first one.

      Read both works again, and this time pay attention to what’s in mine that isn’t in his. I think you’ll find that it’s most of it.

      Another point. My book has been submitted to the SCCRC as a part of the formal application for a third appeal. This is because the lawyers believe the evidence in it exonerates Megrahi. Foot’s pamphlet has never been credited with doing that, because it doesn’t take the reasoning and argument nearly far enough.

    385. Morag says:

      I should point out that I’m an academic to trade. I do understand the difference between sources and original work. I used the same source material as Foot. Since he did a damn good job with it, as far as he went, of course there are some similarities. And of course I read his work, several times, because it’s essential background reading. Nobody ignores the steps that others have already built, the point is to continue the staircase where theirs run out.

      Every word of my book, other than the acknowledged quotes, was typed by me, and it’s all original. And it takes the staircase a hell of a long way beyond the point where Foot left it.

    386. Kenny says:

      The establishment are afraid of fiery speakers like Murray. They are afraid of Scotland full stop. Let them smear Murray. It will not stick. He is the sort of representative we have been crying out for. And when the smears do not stick, what will the BBC and other biased media do then? They will have nothing left.

      People like Murray are the type we need fighting for not just an independent Scotland, but a better, fairer Scotland, one which will hopefully lead the world in a better direction. The times are changing. Scotland has completely transformed. Can anyone imagine the country the way it is five years ago?!?

      So that is why I think no one should fear Murray — Morag, I know you think he is a loose cannonball. Would Westminster not be the better for a couple of loose Scottish cannonballs? Surely better that than troughers like Murphy. How about Cat Boyd? Yes, I know she has ruled herself out, but what a credit she would be to Scotland, and she would have half of England following her (they badly need such people, they have no one except maybe Caroline Lucas).

      I think we all need to recognise that things are not the same anymore. The whole country is stirring and SNP candidates will simply not be chosen by the old formats anymore. Maybe I am naive, but I welcome this. I would certainly listen to dissenting voices from among our numbers — but I would maybe ask them to meet and talk with this fine gentleman first of all… they may end up having a road-to-Damascus conversion!

    387. Rock says:

      Morag,

      “Every word of my book, other than the acknowledged quotes, was typed by me, and it’s all original. And it takes the staircase a hell of a long way beyond the point where Foot left it.”

      I have no reason to doubt you. Just wanted to check because a serious allegation had been made.

      However, I repeat my view that the vast majority of lawyers are the lowest of the low and the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core.

      I have full confidence that Megrahi will be found innocent – in about a 100 years’ time.

      I therefore want “loose cannons” like Craig Murray to shout from the roof tops about this and innumerable other injustices.

      Fat cat lawyers, whichever side they are on, will never do that. They are no different from the fat cat bosses of charities like ‘Save the Children’ and ‘Oxfam’.

      All these expensive trials are a show – the best liars win. Justice for the plebs is most certainly not their aim.

    388. Ghillie says:

      Thank you both, Rock and Dal Riata for taking the time to explain your individual reactions to another’s comments.

      But for me, there are no circumstances under which those responses, together with those of others, were acceptable. Given human nature, understandable perhaps, possibly forgivable, but not acceptable. ( And many a time I look back at things I’ve said and done and don’t like it on reflection either)

      We witness great brutish powers committing great brutish atrocities ( actually, I don’t know how to express in words big enough, the wrongness, the cruelty, the ugliness, the wickedness of the evil human can bring down on human as Rev Stu has highlighted in this article) How we, as individuals, treat every other individual we come across in life, is every bit as important.

      On a cheerier note, I really liked your joke Wee Jonny. Lightened my mood, thank you!

      Shall we bury the hatchet now? Preferably not in anyone’s skull mind!

    389. Ken500 says:

      A solicitor letter may suffice to gie’s all peace. £400 Gerrching.

      The irony. A loose cannon complaining about a loose cannon. Candidates reflect the population. They do not all have to be ‘whiter than white’, unless they take the moral high ground. – Hypocritical. .

      Who will throw the first stone?

    390. Ken500 says:

      Nothing is original. A detective writer draws from other detective writers. Reading a book recently was convinced it had been read before but with a different ending. Famous writers.

    391. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ghillie
      I think that would be a very good idea.

      Doris Day – The Party’s Over
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV5ynRFzrIM

    392. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Call Kaye, right now, giving airtime to torture apologists.

      She’s not everyone’s cup of tea – that’s a given – but she’s heading out over some very thin ice here.

      Careful there Kaye…

    393. StevieMcB says:

      OT UKIP sectarian plan
      http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/the-ukip-plan-for-seats-in-scotland-introducing-sectarianism-to-the-political-mai.114450320
      To open Herald links without encountering paywall in Chrome,right click & open in incognito window

    394. Morag says:

      Kenny (and others) make perfectly reasonable points. If those reasonable points were all that had been said in repsonse to my concerns, there would have been no argument and no unpleasantness. You might even have persuaded me round to your point of view to some extent.

      What was completely unacceptable were the personal attacks, the pile-on, and the serious allegations levelled against me, allegations without a word of truth, made up out of nothing, and completely irrelevant to the discussion – all for the purpose of belittling and silencing me.

      It’s been done to other people too, of course, and many of them have indeed stopped posting. Not pretty.

    395. Morag says:

      Another point about these plagiarism allegations. Quite a lot of people have read my book. I expect most of them have read Paul Foot’s pamphlet. It’s easily accessible and it’s more or less a basic introductory text for anyone interested in Lockerbie. Nobody else has suggested my book is no more than a re-hash of that pamphlet.

      To go further, my book received an extremely favourable review in Private Eye itself (the publishers of Foot’s work), written by Heather Mills, a journalist from the Eye who worked with Paul Foot when he was alive. She even rang me up to confirm points in the book she was referring to in the review. Not a word of an accusation that I’d simply copied Foot, obviously.

      Indeed, I was told that someone else actually nomonated my book for the Paul Foot award for investigative journalism, partly because it was felt that I’d built so effectively on the foundations Foot had laid. It won’t go anywhere because I’m not a journalist and I don’t think books are eligible, but it again illustrates the point.

      Why is it OK to make specific, made-up allegations of wrongdoing against me, but the mere suggestion that material already in the public domain might make Craig Murray a questionable candidate for parliament brings down the hounds of hell?

      Oh, we like Craig Murray but we hate you, is that what it comes down to?

    396. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Back on-topic…again:

      This appears to be the guest Kaye Adams just had on her show for the first hour, putting up a splendid defence for the extraordinary behaviour of his countrymen – Charlie Wolf, of the Daily Mail:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Wolf

    397. Morag says:

      …. the Scottish justice system is rotten to the core.

      You know, I’m not arguing with that in a lot of ways. Indeed, a couple of people in Justice for Megrahi were talking about voting No because we didn’t “deserve” independence due to the state of the justice system. (They actually voted Yes, I like to think my counter-arguments had some influence on that.)

      I think independence might have given us a shot at doing something about it. It’s difficult to overturn vested interests the way the union is set up.

      Nevertheless you have to realise that most lawyers are just ordinary people working to do the best for their clients, whether it’s buying a house or sorting out a will or stopping an eviction or defending them in court. And there are some who actively try to oppose the corruption. (Not long before he died, Jock Thomson had a letter – his wife called it a “nasty-gram” – from the Powers that Be, telling him to back off or else. He didn’t, but sadly by then his health was failing.)

      Have you been following Bob Black’s Lockerbie blog? He doesn’t exactly miss them and hit the wall. The Lord Advocate’s ears should be burning on a regular basis. A retired professor can say these things of course. Unfortunately the people in power can just ignore them.

    398. Morag says:

      Sorry, Ian, you were trying to get back on topic. I can’t listen to Call Kaye. Gave it up years ago, for just the sort of thing you mention.

    399. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian: Call Kaye, right now, giving airtime to torture apologists. She’s not everyone’s cup of tea

      Thanks for the heads-up, Ian, but don’t think I can listen. Is she briefed enough to avoid a basic ‘headline’ discussion rather than giving us anything substantial? It takes a heavy-weight journalist to handle such topics with insight and care, not a ring master.

    400. Morag says:

      I think you answered your own question, Grouse Beater. If Kaye can’t even do enough preparation to cope with a discussion about organic farming, how can she handle that sort of thing? She isn’t even up to ringmaster standards.

    401. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian: Here he is putting up a splendid defence for the extraordinary behaviour of his countrymen – Charlie Wolf, of the Daily Mail:

      I bet he’s playing the ‘patriotic’ line, the one about the world filled with terrorists so it’s our duty to build up the battlements. If they’re not a terrorist then they are a ‘potential’ terrorist.

      For ‘terrorist’ read ‘dark skinned foreigner.’

    402. Morag says:

      I was reading an interesting discussion on the ISF, where one poster (English) asked the others (mostly American) to consider whether it was possible that the groups being stigmatised as terrorists were actually the good guys, and the West were the bad guys. He based this at least partly on the observation that it’s the West invading their countries, often fundamentally for commercial gain, not the other way round.

      He had a point, but you can porbably predict that he wasn’t well received.

    403. SquareHaggis says:

      Interesting link IanB,

      Frim wiki;

      He is a featured writer and blogger for the Mail Online’s “Right Minds” edited by Simon Heffer.

      How ironic.

    404. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Grouse Beater –

      I caught a fair bit of it, snatches here and there. Extraordinary stuff.

      We should be forever grateful to those who administered the ‘harsh’ techniques – they didn’t want to do it, naturally, but they saved an unknowable number of lives, pretty much in the same way as the annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended WW2…etc etc

      Predictable, and (as evidenced in your comment above) predicted. What I found most shocking was the number of callers – ordinary Scots, by the sound of it at any rate – who agreed with him. We’re ‘safe’ because of what these guys did, and we should appreciate that. 9/11 was cited umpteen times as ‘justification’.

      I would say we’re heading down the rabbit-hole again, but sad fact is we’ve been scarpering around inside it for years. Maybe just a new wee tunnel?

    405. Grouse Beater says:

      My issue with BBC Scotland Radio day programmes is, they’re made by the ‘Entertainment’ department, or were when I was there. Deadly serious topics such as torture and rendition require a different ethos.

      Some discussion programmes are interspersed with pop music – for people with a short attention span, and bored but busy housewives. (A BBC category, not mine.)

    406. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian: What I found most shocking was the number of callers – ordinary Scots, by the sound of it at any rate – who agreed with him

      Yes, as expected. Fear instills more fear. It has always worked, worked last century, works this century, worked to rid us of impure thoughts of self-governance.

      A fair number will be Orange, or Empire loyalists, and British is Best automitons. Folk like you and I would not give the format an ounce of credibility by participating. We only come across as Mr Angry of Middle-Earth.

    407. Morag says:

      I know it’s not really on-topic, but I wanted to look further at this.

      I have full confidence that Megrahi will be found innocent – in about a 100 years’ time.

      That’s one of my worries too. That the whole thing will be successfully kicked down the road and in effect nothing will be done until the incident has really passed into history. Too bad for Megrahi’s widow and children, brothers and sisters, and all the others inadvertently caught up in all this.

      I’ve been quite shocked by what I hear about the Crown Office and CPS’s absolute implacable opposition to the possibility of another appeal, and the way those trying to get the appeal to go ahead simply accept that as fact and try to plan to thwart all the dirty tricks they know will be levelled against them. This despite repeated assertions in the pages of the Scotsman and the Times (thanks Magnus) that the Crown Office would welcome the opportunity to defend the case in court, and indeed that the only way to proceed is though the courts (this last, when blocking any suggestion of a public inquiry).

      There is also the matter of extreme prejudice on the part of the Crown Office. They’re supposed to be the agents of establishing and upholding the truth. However, before any grounds for appeal have even been agreed, never mind any actual evidence put forward, the Lord Advocate has taken an extremely hawkish stand in public, declaring that he and all his resources stand ready to oppose the appeal and defend the conviction vigorously.

      This is not the attitude. They should be preparing themselves to examine the application and the new evidence dispassionately, and willing to announce that the appeal will not be opposed, if indeed the evidence in Megrahi’s favour is overwhelming. The mindset of “defend the conviction at all costs and to hell with the evidence” is a symptom of the inherent corruption in the system.

      I remember that “the law’s delays” was one of the reasons Hamlet gave for considering suicide. They want to stall it until after they have retired, preferably until after they’re dead, and they have the means to do that.

    408. Morag says:

      Lockerbie isn’t really as off-topic as all that. It was an early terror incident that was used to intimidate and oppress middle-eastern countries until 9/11 came along. In the 1990s the sanctions imposed on Libya on the assumption that Gaddafi was behind the attack brought the country to its knees. Later, something like $26 billion was screwed out of the country in various “compensation” deals.

      Of course it wasn’t Libya and it was probably Iran, using Syrian/Palestinian mercenaries to do the actual job. But that wasn’t convenient to acknowledge.

      Then again in 2011/12, Lockerbie was part of the narrative that was used to justify aiding the failing rebel insurrection in Libya. This led to Gaddafi’s murder, the complete breakdown of law and order in the country, and its present status as a country of brigands and warlords. (That’s causing real problems for the appeal application – it’s hard to get someone’s signature on a document when they live in Tripoli, these days.)

      I suspect that exposure of what really happened in the Pan Am 103 attack might be as devastating to the reputation of the USA and in particular the CIA as the recent torture revelations. Which is another reason for opposing the appeal, of course.

    409. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Back on topic, again –

      Anyone remember the Daily Mirror being ‘hoaxed’?

      http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-05/15/xin_2005011511005841306218.jpg

      Piers Morgan had to fall on his sword, left the country with his tail between his legs, and – hey presto! – was given his own chat-show.

      The Mirror, temporarily guided by John Pilger, was starting to reclaim a once-proud reputation as a campaigning newspaper, loudly condemning the Bush/Blair Iraq adventure. Then Morgan took the reins – after the ‘prisoner abuse’ scandal/hoax it reverted to normal soft-porn/Bingo service and has not been taken seriously since. But the job was done – it’s well-nigh impossible to raise real, documented cases of British troops torturing/killing detainees, for example, Baha Mousa

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Baha_Mousa

      without the Daily Mirror ‘hoax’ being raised immediately as defence.

    410. Morag says:

      I totally didn’t remember that. Are you suggesting that the hoax might have been a deliberate ruse to discredit the paper and draw the teeth of any later revelations that might actually be true?

    411. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian: Anyone remember the Daily Mirror being ‘hoaxed’?

      You mean the neat plant by our secret service chaps as a spoiler? It proved conclusively our boys are extremely well disciplined. No hanky-panky. Uphold human rights even in the theatre of battle. They know their code of honour.

      If a prisoner has his hands in the air, or lying on the ground wounded, you …. [fill in the blank]

    412. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s Kaye’s show, for those who do want to hear it. The ‘torture’ discussion is the first ‘half’.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04tcpfh

    413. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Link to reader reviews of Cruel Britannia by Iain Cobain:

      http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cruel-Britannia-Secret-History-Torture/dp/1846273331#customerReviews

    414. CameronB Brodie says:

      So you thought you understood the 20th century? Well you may have a false impression, so you won’t have a scooby about what is happening in the cradle of civilisation today.

      Consider President Eisenhower. In 1953, the year before the Brotherhood was outlawed by Nasser, a covert US propaganda program headed by the US Information Agency brought over three dozen Islamic scholars and civic leaders mostly from Muslim countries for what officially was an academic conference at Princeton University. The real reason behind the meeting was an effort to impress the visitors with America’s spiritual and moral strength, since it was thought that they could influence Muslims’ popular opinion better than their ossified rulers. The ultimate goal was to promote an anti-Communist agenda in these newly independent countries, many of which had Muslim majorities.

      http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/feb/05/washingtons-secret-history-muslim-brotherhood/

      Ashes of Hama: The Muslim Brotherhood in Syria

      http://www.amazon.com/Ashes-Hama-Muslim-Brotherhood-Syria/dp/019933062X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418391622&sr=1-2&keywords=Muslim+Brotherhood+in+Syria

      “The British government is extremist in its views on Syria and they are still thinking and dreaming that their agents, the Muslim Brotherhood and the other takfiris (violent jihadis) can make the change they want. Why should I be diplomatic if Hague and Cameron are not dealing with us diplomatically? We don’t have to be. And developments have proven that we are correct and they are stupid. They have to admit that they have failed.”

      http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/14/uk-policy-supporting-anti-assad-syria-rebels-called-stupid

      Tory MP Jesse Norman sacked as adviser over Syria vote

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23958422

      Why would we want to worry our silly little heads over controlling Scotland’s Foreign Policy? ;(

    415. CameronB Brodie says:

      U.S. Intelligence on the Middle East, 1945-2009

      http://library.princeton.edu/resource/12238

    416. CameronB Brodie says:

      “Who will babysit the babysitter?”

      Lard?

    417. Stoker says:

      For those of you who haven’t seen it yet – last nights edition of Scotland 2014 discusses CIA torture and rendition flights among other topics.
      David Pratt from The Sunday Herald offers his take on things.
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04v5n3k

    418. Rock says:

      Morag,

      “That’s one of my worries too.”

      If the Scottish justice system was not rotten to the core, it would not have jailed Megrahi in the first place.

      Having jailed him, not only would it have cleared him long before he developed terminal cancer, the judges who jailed him would have been sentenced to life imprisonment.

      Any system of justice where judges are above the law is rotten to the core.

    419. Rock says:

      Morag,

      “Nevertheless you have to realise that most lawyers are just ordinary people working to do the best for their clients, whether it’s buying a house or sorting out a will or stopping an eviction or defending them in court.”

      No, most certainly they are not. Do you know what their hourly charge rate is? They are parasites who use their cleverness to fleece the public.

      With a few exceptions, lawyers are the lowest of the low.

      Find me one lawyer who is ready to openly and publicly say that Bliar and Straw should be put on trial for crimes against humanity.

    420. CameronB Brodie says:

      Rock
      IMO, some lawyers do conspire against the best interests of society, but I’m sure there were also a good number who voted Yes. Just saying. That’s all.

    421. Rock says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      ” IMO, some lawyers do conspire against the best interests of society, but I’m sure there were also a good number who voted Yes. Just saying. That’s all.”

      IMO,

      The vast majority of lawyers conspire against the best interests of society, but I’m sure there are also a tiny minority who voted Yes but nevertheless fleece the poor and less clever members of society.

      Proof:

      How much does a lawyer charge per hour and how much is his / her yearly income?

      Is there any lawyer in Scotland, perhaps a Yes voting one, who can openly call for Bliar and Straw to be put on trial for crimes against humanity?

    422. Tommy B says:

      It’s obvious now to everyone, even those aware these sort of things had been going on routinely, that the scale of these renditions is massive, the secret prisons spanned the entire globe, Prestwick’s use of special relevance here, but only a small part of a much bigger picture.

      I find it strange that Morag wishes to downplay the seriousness and the scale of this.

      “My problem is that the whole torture thing is just too ghastly to want to talk about. It’s not even as if it’s news, or a surprise. We all knew what these flights refuelling at Prestwick were for. That’s one of the reasons we wanted a Yes vote.”

      “I thought the whole torture thing and the rendition flights through Prestwick was common knowledge for years. I mean, who’s surprised?”

      Not even as if it’s news?

      No big deal huh?

      “Rendition, Rendition, I never knew the sky was a prison”

      That many people have been aware of this for some years, that it has even entered popular culture, demonstrated by the years-old Manic Street Preachers lyric above, doesn’t make these limited heavily redacted admissions any less serious, the fact that the US itself have had to acknowledge this and that the media have had to take notice, makes it very much BIG News, which is not going to go away. It’s much bigger than Lockerbie, almost certainly in terms of impact on people’s lives.

      This has been a very instructive thread. While Morag has delved into some aspects of Lockerbie to an astonishing depth, which has contributed greatly to the subject, building on what there was previously, and establishing once and for all that entry of a bomb suitcase was far more likely to have taken place at Heathrow, as many suspected than anywhere else. We are no closer to establishing absolute responsibility publicly. Entry at Heathrow makes the originally suggested suspect or accused – PFLP-GC, Syria or Iran – much less rather than more likely, instead it makes involvement of western or western allied security services, apparently with the keys and the run of Heathrow Airport, highly probable, which I suppose is something else just too ghastly to talk about –rather look for some other persecuted scapegoats to frame or a whole people or nation to defame and demonise, than for ‘friends’ to face any further embarassment and disgrace.

    423. Tommy B says:

      Something like eight hours after commenting, my reasonable, even conciliatory comment has steadfastly refused to appear. I know that this site, any site is not under any obligation to permit any and all comments, but I have found the extent of the censorship here to be possibly the worst I have ever encountered on the web, not just on this fractious thread but since its earliest beginnings. Either there is an unresolved highly selective and thus also highly unlikely technical issue, or something else rather untoward is going on and all is not as it seems. I’ve already concluded before now that the latter case answers all the anomalies, but decided to admit the benefit of the doubt and hoped that with time and experience, maturity even, the difficulties would resolve themselves and all contributions and comments would be treated equally. Clearly this is not going to be the case and inscrutable inexplicable overly heavy control-freakish moderation continues to diminish this site’s credibility and with that damages the principal cause the site hopes to further, I can only see a downhill course from here, without change or even any evidence of the will to change, or even recognition that there is a problem with the human rather than the software back-end. I realise too from this thread I am far from alone in this uneasy feeling that the uniformity of comments and the same constantly recurring ‘personalities’ which predominate, with almost no fresh blood admitted, and hardly any dissent, has turned the situation below the line into a repetitive and dull mutual-appreciation society.

      I won’t re-post my obviously unwanted previous comment, I can recognise the futility of trying to penetrate the thick blanket of enforced compliance and adulation of the ‘elders’ necessary to ‘fit in’ around here, I never was one for that sort of weak emotional need to belong to any hierarchical or exclusive society, or to join the club, in other words to conform or be cast into the darkness, I find I much prefer, find solace in ploughing my own furrow happy to leave the pursuit of petty power or recognition to those with character flaws enough to crave such things more than most.

      I’ll still pop back to snigger from time to time as the same situation will no doubt continue to recur, it seems to be the permanent and sorry state of affairs, but won’t be commenting, however pertinent, enlightening or discomfiting to below the line hypocrites such input could be.

    424. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Something like eight hours after commenting, my reasonable, even conciliatory comment has steadfastly refused to appear.”

      Your comment was posted at TWO FIFTY SIX IN THE MORNING. It’s the weekend. I’ve had posts to publish and questions to answer and stuff to do. Pick your toys up off the floor and put your lip back in.

    425. Morag says:

      Hi Tommy. You know, this is about the least censored place on the internet. You really have to try to have a post deleted, and as far as I can see only death threats, gross obscenity or persistent trolling despite warnings will do it.

      Posts aren’t pre-moderated, and appear as written. Stu merely pre-moderates the first post from a new account, to guard against being swamped by automatic spam. And he’s a one-man band, and he does sleep sometimes. (Pro tip. Don’t mistype your username or email address or the system will think you’re another new member and throw you in the moderation queue again and then you’ll start howling “why am I in moderation?”)

      Now, about me “down-playing” the rendition flights. Nothing was further from my mind. I was just so depressed by the sheer enormity of it all, and the fact that we’d actually known about it for years anyway, to say anything constructive about it. I mean, what can an ordinary citizen do about something so huge, especially after a No vote when Westminster rules all?

      As regards Heathrow and Lockerbie, bear in mind that security at Heathrow was diabolically lax. Once someone was into the airside area, they could basically go where they liked and do what they liked. This was admitted in court. And there were many hundreds of airside passes unaccounted-for at that time. Any determined and competent terrorist group could in theory have carried out that atrocity.

      And when it comes to keys, don’t forget the midnight break-in on the night before the doomed plane took off, that was buried by the Dumfries and Galloway police and never became part of the narrative of the case. It’s not certain that was related to the bombing, but it may well have been, and it eliminates the need for any keys.

      I can’t prove the PFLP-GC did this, but could I introduce you to William of Ockham? The PFLP-GC had re-formed a cell in Neuss specifically to make IEDs designed to blow up aircraft in flight, in October 1988. Their bomb-maker, Marwan Khreesat, specialised in bombs disguised as household electronics items such as radios, which used a type of timer that would detonate less than an hour after take-off. The commonest type he had would have gone off approximately 35 to 40 minutes after takeoff.

      The device that blew up Pan Am 103 was disguised as a radio-cassete player, in the Khreesat manner, and it went off 38 minutes after the wheels left the tarmac. If the PFLP-GC wasn’t responsible, then there must have been some other group in western Europe that December, also plotting to blow up an airliner, using a modus operandi spookily similar to Khreesat’s. And they were entirely undetected and we have no idea who they are.

      Two groups, plotting an identical atrocity at the same time, and the one we know about didn’t achieve anything but the one we don’t know about was successful? Well maybe, but frankly I lean to the simpler explanation.

    426. Morag says:

      Oh, and by the way. I’ll tell you what I think about possible US complicity in Lockerbie before the fact some other time, once I’ve delved a lot more deeply into the circumstances. Right now, that one is not for open web publication.

    427. Morag says:

      I’ve just started reading this paper, which I seem to have missed when it was published three years ago. Looks absolutely fascinating, especially in the light of recent revelations.

      http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/14751798.2011.632245

    428. Sannymac says:

      MORAG: Do us all a favour, Close your mouth and open your arse. Shit comes from both your orifices. I would prefer the stink of honest keech to the vile character assassination from your mouth/pen.
      You’ve made the same stupid speech times without number and the vast majority of readers have had enough. I would suggest that you now go and enjoy a long session of Aerial Self Fornication!!

    429. Morag says:

      Charmed, I’m sure.

    430. Paula Rose says:

      @ Morag –

      Very interesting, thanks.

    431. Bob Mack says:

      @ Morag
      The simple truth is that security services can make you disappear should they wish,at any cost .We already know that their power and their rationale for action, sometimes goes way beyond our reasoning. I once read a reply of yours to someone who claimed the referendum was rigged. I think you made it clear that you thought this improbable. I do not know if that is necessarily accurate. We now know that our state has killed innocent people in Ireland to maintain cover, and that we have been complicit in transporting people for torture across the globe. National interest covers a lot of scope, and no doubt in years to come we will be astounded at what we find went on under the auspices of National Security. I do not condone the “”suppressive” feel to some comments you have received, and people should remember that the difference between what we now know and what we will know in future could be very marked

    432. Morag says:

      That’s true, Bob. I do find the number of people who are serious thorns in the establishment’s side and who have not disappeared somewhat reassuring though.

    433. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If we could please get back on-topic, yet again?

      Here’s a link to the website of the Al-Sweady Inquiry (investigating British Forces mistreatment of Iraqi civilians) which is due to release its Report next Wednesday (17th) and will be viewable via the same link:

      http://www.alsweadyinquiry.org/

    434. Will Podmore says:

      This thread is supposed to be about the appalling torture imposed and supported by the US and British states. But BrianW misuses it to take shots at Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mugabe, and Saddam Hussein.
      The Chinese Communist Party led by Mao and the CPSU led by Stalin were Britain’s allies in WW2 against Hitler’s genocidal warmongering regime.
      Mugabe led a colony to its freedom from British rule – one might have thought that some here would appreciate that, and even support it.
      Hussein was the designated enemy of the US and British states, the victim of their illegal aggression.
      And don’t forget that Bush and Blair didn’t invent torture. Those states have used it for centuries against their enemies.
      The war in Malaya was all too typical of Britain’s wars to keep the empire. Historian Douglas Porch wrote of these wars, “most proved to be protracted, unlimited, murderous, expensive, total-war assaults on indigenous societies. … the true key to success was pitilessly to target anyone and anything that sustained the insurgency. In this way, colonial warfare simply boiled down to national displacement and ruining the countryside by making it unlivable. … imperial Britain’s small wars retained their dirty, violent, racist character …” Counterinsurgency resulted in “the institutionalization of collective punishment, torture, resettlement, internment, special night squads/ferret forces/counter gangs, and RAF terror bombing for imperial policing. The key to success was to rebrand these kinetic methods as hearts and minds and prosecute it out of public view. … villages might be bombed from the air, shelled, burned, or imply knocked down, wells poisoned, crops fumigated or destroyed, livestock slaughtered, the wounded executed, and the population displaced.”

    435. CameronB Brodie says:

      Will Podmore
      Thanks.

    436. Gallstone says:

      Paul Foot did write the best piece of investigative journalism that I ever read.

    437. CameronB Brodie says:

      Will Podmore
      Got any more you’d be happy to share? You might wet folks appetite for your book. 😉

    438. Iain morrison says:

      Paul Foot said the best thing in journalism that I ever saw. His 32 page pamphlet was a life changer.. The West Highland Free Press would agree with my opinion.

    439. shibboleth says:

      The more things change, the more they stay the same…

      Oliver Cromwell; Speech on the dissolution of the Long Parliament, given to the House of Commons, 20 April 1653.

      “It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

      Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter’d your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

      Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil’d this sacred place, and turn’d the Lord’s temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress’d, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

      In the name of God, go!”

    440. shibboleth says:

      @ Morag: Re Lockerbie

      The Crown Office may be willing to defend the process, but it is unlikely to venture into evidence especially that which was redacted by the British and American governments and their agencies. I see it is the Lord Advocate that is most vociferous in his defence of the conviction; I would be more interested in one of his Advocate Depute’s assessment of the evidence as his firm – McCourts – were the solicitors who represented Abdelbaset al-Megrahi – but that opinion is unlikely to be for public consumption!

      I was driving south on the M74 the evening the Pan Am flight crashed into the town – just passing Moffat when we were stopped by a police roadblock. We were eventually escorted past Lockerbie on the service road west of the motorway to allow emergency vehicles access – and witnessed some of the carnage first hand. Remarkable to see the engines embedded into the road at Sherwood Crescent – remarkable in that they were relatively intact – unlike the engines/ fuselage/components of the aircraft that crashed into the Pentagon and Philadelphia on 9/11 and completely vaporised!

      Just like the credibility and integrity of the US and UK governments.

    441. Morag says:

      The debris of Maid of the Seas falling on Lockerbie would have been travelling at terminal velocity which would be in the region of 200 m.p.h. It mainly fell on soft earth. It was in relatively small pieces by then, so that the mass of each piece was a lot less than the mass of an intact airliner.

      The flight that crashed in Pennsylvania was power-dived into the ground, intact. The flight that hit the Pentagon was also power-dived into a wall that had been reinforced as a special security measure to ward off bombs and suicide car bombs. Again, it was intact.

      I’m not sure what speed these planes were doing, but the cruising speed of jet airliners is over 500 m.p.h. and these planes were exceeding that by a fair bit. The energy of a collision increases with the square of the velocity, so if we assume the 9/11 planes were travelling about three times terminal velocity you can see immediately that the energy of these collisions would be enormously greater.

      Mass is also important. (The equation for the energy of the collision is actually [mass] x [velocity squared].) So an intact plane again has many times the energy of a bit of that plane for that reason, and it’s cumulative.

      This is why the plane that broke up at cruising altitude was found on the ground in more or less recognisable pieces, while the planes that were power-dived intact into solid obstacles were not. In fact quite a lot of the Pentagon plane did survive in recognisable form, but inside the building as the energy of the collision was high enough to allow the fuselage (stripped of the wings) to punch through the reinforced wall. There are photos, and I know someone who was in the Pentagon that morning and saw it.

      I agree that neither the US nor the UK governments have a shred of credibility in relation to Lockerbie, but there’s nothing to be read into the fact that aircraft crashes which occurred in wildly different circumstances produced very different patterns of debris on the ground.



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