The gospel truth
From the “Better Together” blog today:
“No doubt”? Now, we know that isn’t true, and what’s more we know that almost 70% of Scots don’t believe it either. So who are the No camp trying to fool?
As with all the best lies, the paragraph softens readers up by opening with a line that IS true – or at least, is true if you accept the definition of “more powers” as meaning “more obligations”. The main political parties (or rather, their Scottish branches) are indeed committed to “bringing forward proposals” for extended devolution.
The problem is that we also know that those proposals won’t necessarily be approved by their UK parent parties, and indeed are likely to be very strongly opposed by them. So while it’s fair to say that there will (probably) be proposals, the notion that there’s “no doubt” they’ll lead to more devolution is a vast and blatant lie.
But wait a minute.
Now that we look closely, we’re being unfair. Because the article implies, but doesn’t actually say, that a No vote will deliver more powers for the Scottish Parliament. It just says it’ll be “a vote for” them. Nothing about that vote being binding on anyone. After all, a vote for the Lib Dems at the last general election was “a vote for” the abolition of tuition fees, and we know what happened to that.
“Better Together” are telling you that you’ll be ASKING for more powers if you vote for the Union. But they’re being very careful not to say that you’ll actually GET any. As ever with the No camp, the words are designed to mislead the unwary and the truth lies hidden between the lines, revealed only to those who search for it.
Or in the words of the old saying: God hears and answers all prayers. It’s just that sometimes the answer is “Get stuffed.”
Sophistry, the positive case for the Union; anything but the truth.
BT – “Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”.
Xander, I’m profoundly offended that you would sully the name of the great William Blake by associating his words with Better Together! 😛
I thought it was Walter Scott – hurriedly checking for source 🙂
truth is the new lie, scaremongering is the new comfort zone and propaganda infiltrates those without the means Or mind or time to contrast and compare. the fashion seems to be to try to make people believe that what they are hearing and seeing is absolutely the truth, even when a total lie…sinister indeed but it won’t work in Scotland. Educationally an altogether more astute and informed population, hooray. Lets keep it that way, please.
OK, so I’m a survivor otheThe 1960,s government experiment to prove chloramphenicol. What no one tells you as your GP prescribes you with the drug is. UK citizens DIED to regulate this drug. We were willfully impregnated with the typhoid salmonella bacterium, so that the curative drug could be tested!!! This is a violation of our hand rights, but NO ONE sees this. If UK would do tha then, what will they not scruple to do now? M
Taranaich – sorry to be anal about it but ‘Oh, what a tangled, etc’ is from Marmion – a Tale of Flodden Field, by Sir Walter Scott, 1808. All about deceit, and disaster which about sums BT up – hopefully a Floddedn awaits them in Sept next year.
I’ve got my confirmed place to the Better Together launch at the Mitchell Library on Saturday at 12.30 but am going help do something far more positive and help at the Yes East Kilbride summer Fayre instead. Anyone who wants to go, use my name. I suspect they will be checking names off so only one of me will get in.
Ee William Blake my fave poet, he’d no time for idiots, he wouldn’t entertain the present shambolic lot in charge of the uk, neither would Thomas Bewick. Another artist of the time con temporary with Blake an Wordsworth. His memoirs are a gem.
Look, I don’t really want to go there, but I’ve always said Scots can make decisions for themselves. Anyone can make decisions for themselves. The questions for me is should we?
Apologies everyone, an attack of Darlingitis.
murray
go to the Dr. We still have an NHS in Scotland, they will treat you for your affliction
of darlingit is, and, if we choose to make our own decisions in bonny Scotland we might even be all at sea, but hey, rather have a useful rudder than a worn out useless f,g engine thanks. Get real, read the facts and make your own mind up.
‘All the main political parties’. BT doesn’t operate in rUK so that is factually wrong. The main political party in Scotland is the SNP. The Tories and the Lib Dems are minority parties in Scotland.
BT do deceit – repeatedly.
Spit your offers out in words of one syllable, please. That way you will not be misunderstood or misinterpreted, which is what you desire, isn’t it?
Surely not just a matter of each of the Westminster Parties agreeing something for their own manifestos. Won’t they also then have to be consistent across all Tory, New Labour, and Lib Dem manifestos?
Also these manifestos won’t be printed by September 2014. It will all be a load of verbals as I understand they say in political circles.
Just a wee thought here but as we all know we are constantly faced with views on TV and MSM of unionists calling for definitive answers to what Independence means and what exactly the people of an Independent Scotland can expect.
Well can we turn this question on its head, so to speak, and demand answers from Bitter Together as to what exactly a NO vote will produce with a careful reminder to Bitter Together that ‘more powers’ doesn’t cut the mustard. We want to know EXACTLY what more powers the Scottish government will receive in the event of a NO vote!
Oops I forgot, the Bitter Together camp do not give answers to any question they just do soundbites to make themselves look good and sound important!
Off topic here, but I need some help… BBC Newsnight Scotland and STV both expressing shock and total surprise that Cameron got heavily defeated in the Westminster debate tonight. What’s to be surprised about? Is it simply that we should be surprised that the vote went in tandem with the feeling of the population for a change?
Alba4Eva says:
What’s to be surprised about?
Maybe an outbreak of common sense and/or realism in the House of Commons? It won’t last though.
The technical name for that statement is “barefaced lie”. Cut the crap Better Together and get your proposals on the table. Oh wait, you haven’t got any. A bird in the heart is worth a bushel of bullshit…or something like that.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if hundreds, nay thousands of us Tweeted and FB’ed a frenzy of arrangements to meet at The Bon Accord and other spots around The Mitchell Library on Saturday, lunchtime-ish?
Given that we’re being monitored (and no decent Intelligence Service dare take such information ‘lightly’), what number of liaisons would have to be reached before BT organisers are ‘advised’ that a change of venue may be required and/or Police Scotland have to relocate valuable personnel?
(But, you know, things crop up: trains are cancelled; baby-sitters can’t show; the old dear needs the lawn done; the genital warts start playing-up etc etc…it would be such a shame if we went to all that bother of making genuine, albeit tentative arrangements, but, in the end-up, NONE of us could make it.)
Why do they continually insult the intelligence of the people of this country with these forked tongue pronouncements? What the hell do they think they will achieve with this barefaced lying? Jam th’morra? Aye – effin right!
YES Scotland.
I am a bit concerned that some people in Scotland will easily fall for this line/lie, aided and abetted by the MSM. I hope I am wrong, but I have a bad feeling about it.
@alba4eva
The surprise is that around 30 Tories voted against their PM, and around 11 Lib Dems. Very unexpected.
O/T
One of the SMNT has the following information on the BT launch in Glasgow:
“THE EAGLE HAS LANDED!!
Thank you for registering your interest in attending the launch of Better Together’s Glasgow Group. We are delighted to be able to confirm the place(s) that you requested for this important event.
The launch will take place on Saturday, 31 August 2013 at 13:00 in the Mitchell Library, Granville Street, Glasgow.
Teas and coffees will be available from 12:30. As this event is fully subscribed, We would ask that you arrive promptly.
A map to the venue can be found here.
The launch of the Glasgow group is a major milestone of our campaign. With just over a year to go until the vote on Scotland’s future, We are delighted that you have decided to play your part in the campaign to keep Scotland a strong part of the United Kingdom. We know that the Nationalists have to only win once and that they only have to win by one vote. We cannot allow this to happen.
We look forward to seeing you at the Mitchell Library on Saturday.”
O/T – 13 votes stopped UK’s involvement in Syria. Is this perhaps a rare occasion when the Scottish vote actually made a difference to what happened in Britain?
@Susan
I remember “The Eagle has landed” it was a film with Michael Caine as a German officer (with morals) who was part of a plot to kidnap Churchill. Not a bad film. I suppose No-Better Together would like us to recall instead the moon landing, as that might be more appropriate?
@muttley
I understand your unease. But in the ‘fabled’ 16 weeks of apparent unbiased reporting, there will inevitably be some kind of national debate etc. This is such an obvious topic that BT can’t “hide it” so they will be challenged to state what exactly these future mythical powers will be. Any obfuscation will increase peoples’ doubt and suspicion (and I expect that by then with a clever YES campaign, voters will be suspicious) and the lie will be revealed for what it is.
BT are creating hostages to fortune. I think this, like all the other lies, will come back to bite them hard.
Arbroath 1320 says:
29 August, 2013 at 11:13 pm
Oops I forgot, the Bitter Together camp do not give answers to any question they just do soundbites to make themselves look good and sound important!
Exactly – they have presented absolutely nothing of value to date about the future (only its very bad if Union falls). Only lamenting about the past and blighty .. its all good you see.
Media & TV should be hung for the lack of scrutiny over their campaign …. its allmoke & mirrors….. nothing of substance. Can someone tell us exactly what they stand for. What is there visison. Is it really more of the same ??
Does it go beyond ??
Save 300yrs of shared history (it was all great)
It will all go tits up with a Yes vote
We’re Too wee, Too poor, Too stupid
Salmond is Satan
Ejected from Europe
Is that really it ????
Perhaps this could be woven into the fabric of a question to be included in the opinion poll, like what powers would you expect to be offered with perhaps a tick list and then also perhaps, of those you picked what ones, if any do you think Westminster would be prepared to give up? this might also get across the fact t ha tit would be up to London.
So the great event, what a crowd-puller for BT, will be the launch that will take place on Saturday, 31 August 2013 at 13:00 in the Mitchell Library, Granville Street, Glasgow.
And the event is fully subscribed, so no more frigging the attendance figures then!
‘ We know that the Nationalists have to only win once and that they only have to win by one vote. We cannot allow this to happen.’
Thereby, the truth is out, ‘we cannot allow this to happen’, smacks of a sinister-ish note, which does not for good democracy make.
The Mitchell Library, eh? That’s where my science society holds its meetings. The Stirling Room has a capacity of 36; the Moir Room has a capacity of 35; I suppose they could book out the theatre or main hall but they’re usually booked out and aren’t available at short notice.
My guess is the Stirling Room. It was originally named after a 19th century Tory after all.
yeah, and after a NO vote their proposals for more devolution will be shoved into Alec Douglas-Home’s old dispatch bag and launched into the Thames!
More Devolution after a NO vote is T H E B I G L I E there is no other words for it.
Taranaich – sorry to be anal about it but ‘Oh, what a tangled, etc’ is from Marmion – a Tale of Flodden Field, by Sir Walter Scott, 1808.
Don’t apologise at all, I thought I had typed Walter Scott! For some reason my fingers rebelled and typed William Blake instead, in what I’m rapidly starting to suspect is a concerted campaign against me. Infuriating, as I’m a huge fan of Scott AND Blake. Argh. Too late at night for this!
They’re all agreed they ‘want’ to deliver further (unspecified) powers… That’s nice. Not necessarily agreed on what powers, how much or when, but they’re all agreed. Yup nice, very, very nice.
Or we could have all powers 100% guaranteed of delivery. Vote YES, its time folks. Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
Well Rev,
that’s another question for the poll:
Do you consider a no vote in the referendum as an endorsement for more powers to the Scottish Parliment?
Do you trust the Westminster parliaments/Unionist parties to bring forward Devo Max In the event of a No vote?
that would be an interesting Poll?
The BT event is still secret though. Although it’s been announced if you’re registered (although I just checked my email and I haven’t been invited yet – maybe it’s full) on the BT website it’s still at a ‘central Glasgow location’. Hilarious really.
adam davidson @ 10.33pm
Adam, piece of advice , if I were you I would ask the rev to remove that post, for your own sake, you dont know who else is looking that this site
Murray McCallum says
“The questions for me is should we?”
pleeeeaaaasssee tell me that question was asked tongue in cheek?
belay that last question Murray your closing comment was the clue duh
I was at an event earlier in the month and the panel parroted the line about the promise of more devo and how it was now inevitable. Fortunately someone else in the audience questioned whether or not Lab or Con could be trusted on the issue, illustrated with the example of Douglas Home’s promise of more and better powers in the event of a no vote in the 1979 referendum.
The panel were half right though. There *will* be change in the event of a no vote, but as it will be at the gift and favour of the English electorate, it will be done to benefit them, not Scotland. Bye bye Barnet, hello income tax collection, oil remaining ‘ex-regio’, Scottish MPs banned on voting on anything except foreign policy, is my most likely scenario in the event of a no vote. Provided they can be bothered to find the time in the parliamentary schedule to discuss Scotland at all.
Ian Mackay. I’ve been in the Stirling Room. I reckon you could fit up to 50, if folk squeezed in. Is 36 the official capacity? I was wondering which room they’d use, as the theatre is 400, and there is no way they will get those numbers!
We have bought apples off that cart before and they were rotten
i bet they would bite you hand off for the two question solution which was offer not
so long ago
criag evans says
“well rev”
Its already been clearly stated that a no vote (should they even bother to honor that vague promise) the outcome of more powers ( no don’t laugh) will be subject to a referendum of the rest of the UK,
so when they get their overwhelming NO they’ll be able to say, well that’s the democratic will of the UK guys, what can we do?
Muttley, there are people who have already fallen for the more powers lie, and who think that a No vote means devo max. I spoke with such people – all women – last night. They are voting No not because they have any great desire for devo max though, but because they think change is bad. That’s it, and good luck trying to get our message through, ‘cos they don’t want to listen.
We’re sometimes in danger of getting carried away in our own wee bubble, thinking that everything’s going our way. Last night was a sobering experience for me, and amplifies the notion that there are swathes of people out there whose heads are – at least on a subliminal level – chock full of MSM nonsense.
Time to counter the bull by hammering home the actual certain and likely consequences of a NO vote.
Top of the list of consequences is further Westminster-actioned cuts into the foreseeable future, regardless of the party in power there.
There will be we know, a re-jigging of the Barnett formula leading to a substantial reduction in the block grant, further divesting Scotland of the monies needed to maintain existing services.
This will mean an end to prescriptions free at the point of service.
The end of at-home services for the elderly.
The end of free tuition for university students.
The end of free bus passes for the over-sixties.
The Unionist parties will argue a no vote gives them a mandate to implement the following:
The repatriation of certain devolved powers back to Westminster to neuter Nationalist power (curtailing “SNP mischief-making”) to put an end to the Scottish Question once and for all.
A vote NO will mean the effective end of the Scottish Parliament stripped of power and its diminution to a wee pretendy parliament (thus proving Billy Connolly right after all).
Scottish representation in the Westminster Parliament will be reduced to ~ 50 MPs initially and will continue to decline as Scotland’s population continues to comprise a smaller and smaller portion of the greater English state.
Per their current existing tacit agreement, there will be concerted and coordinated long-term efforts by Labour and the Tories to end Scotland’s status as a country within the UK, and to recast it as just other northern region of Britain.
That prospect has been given added weight by the UK Government legal opinion published earlier this year, wherein it is stated, the country of Scotland was “extinguished” in 1707 when it was incorporated into England, and that that the “United Kingdom” is simply a synonym for “England” (and yes, that really is the UK Government’s official position).
Precedent gives us every reason to be concerned that, if we remain and ever again become uppity, Westminster may retaliate with a policy of managed decline of Scotland’s economy a la Geoffrey Howe et Liverpool during the Thatcher regime.
The unacceptable risk is that this nation will be permanently subsumed as a neglected and reviled low-opportunity Celtic backwater of a Greater England.
These are the outcomes that would likely follow a NO vote in September 2014 and it will well serve Scots to remember it.
And for anyone who doubts the rev is a ‘man of the cloth’
“Or in the words of the old saying: God hears and answers all prayers. It’s just that sometimes the answer is “Get stuffed.”
LOL 🙂
Here are the contact details for the Mitchell Library concerning booking venues.
Mitchell Venue Hire TeamThe Mitchell Library North Street Glasgow G3 7DN
0141 287 2805
mitchellvenuehire@glasgowlife.org.uk
Fax: 0141 287 2815
Training Day wrote: “[T]there are people who have already fallen for the more powers lie, and who think that a No vote means devo max . . and good luck trying to get our message through, ‘cos they don’t want to listen . . We’re sometimes in danger of getting carried away in our own wee bubble, thinking that everything’s going our way.”
This ^^^^^^
If women don’t like constitutional change then what have then been living thru for the past 50 years with the rise of the SNP and the push for Home Rule at Westminster, and also the last 14 years with the return of the Scottish parliament?
It can’t be actual change that is putting off women voters, because the constitutional changes we have seen in Scotland have benefited women most.
The BT statement, the subject of this article, could provide useful questions for the poll.
“How do you interpret this statement?
As (a) definitely more powers but yet to be defined. or
(b) a change in powers yet to be defined.
“How do you interpret the opening statement – all the main political parties”?
(a ) as all UK political parties. or
(b) Scottish branches of the UK parties?
@Gillie
The introduction of Holyrood was, by and large, not presented as a great upheaval and consequently was not too scary.
Independence, on the other hand..
HMRC has just released updated figures of revenues received from ‘UK’ oil & gas production.
Since 1979, the UK Treasury has received £182,955,000,000 in oil revenues alone.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/prt/table11-11.pdf
Where the fuck has it gone?
Training Day says:
@Gillie
The introduction of Holyrood was, by and large, not presented as a great upheaval and consequently was not too scary.
Independence, on the other hand..
All those women would have had experience of and benefited directly from an independent legal system, an independent health service and an independent education system of long standing. Do they fear the police, the courts, the hospitals, the doctor surgeries, the schools, the colleges and the universities? What is there to fear over independence?
It would seem the “too wee, too stupid and too poor” argument is a part of gender politics.
Trainingday , It’s only my view but I get the impression debates like the one on Scotland Tonight last night about finance post Independence is not what the majority of people want to hear.
However get Leslie Riddoch ,Elaine C smith , Natalie Mcgarry talking about the bread and butter stuff and you start to be able to picture a normal , safe , functioning , aspirational country.
Get Elaine C on TV ,explaining the Common Weal and you would possibly find few people disagree with the premise but they need to be made aware of it first.
@Gillie
They’ve been told their whole lives that the comfort blanket of Westminster will protect them from multifarious evils, and yes, that they are too wee, too poor etc. They knew they wouldn’t lose that comfort blanket or that ingrained (and comforting) sense of dependency with the introduction of a devolved parliament. What they fear is losing both these latter with independence and we have to address the mindset of people like this, or we will lose.
@Training Day
Muttley, there are people who have already fallen for the more powers lie, and who think that a No vote means devo max. I spoke with such people – all women – last night. They are voting No not because they have any great desire for devo max though, but because they think change is bad. That’s it, and good luck trying to get our message through, ‘cos they don’t want to listen.
We’re sometimes in danger of getting carried away in our own wee bubble, thinking that everything’s going our way. Last night was a sobering experience for me, and amplifies the notion that there are swathes of people out there whose heads are – at least on a subliminal level – chock full of MSM nonsense.
Yes, that is why I keep my feet on the ground, and remain cautious regarding the referendum. I hope we can get through to as many people before the referendum about the potential of independence, and the consequences of a No vote. We still have a lot of work to do.
Training Day
Tell them the truth that dependency is weakness, it saps the spirit, and that hiding behind the “too wee, too stupid and too poor” argument is a symptom of that weakness.
There also seems to be a disconnect (?) for some people I speak to , between their lives and politics.
Overcrowding at a school is the Rectors fault rather than the local councillors who agreed the plans.
Car parking issues at a local hospital , is the Trusts fault rather than the local councillors who agreed the plans.
Lack of facilities is the shop owners fault rather the local councillors who manage the town .
A lot of people I speak to “am no interested in politics !” don’t seem to make the connection that the things that affect them are by and large decided at what ever level by politics.
A cynic would say , people have been encouraged to not be interested in local/ national politics and now you come along here with your high faluting ideas about Scotland being Independent tsk.
The trouble is , we can’t leave it all to the politics and history graduates, as the 8o odd year man in Ken Loaches film says in essence , the people hold the power, they just don’t realise it.
If they are all agreed, then the bill giving those powers should swish through parliament un-opposed and could be passed right now… why wait… oh!
That’s it, and good luck trying to get our message through, ‘cos they don’t want to listen.
With some people, and certain subjects, you just have to repeat yourself many times before the message gets through. If that’s what it takes, then so be it.
I daresay at a push, we could ‘trust’ the pro-union parties to produce the proposals for more powers that they say they are going to BUT if they are as half-baked half-arsed and half-witted as the attempts they have made up to now (Lamont’s Income tax plan, Calman commission) they won’t get them past their own parties let alone Westminster and the electorate.
The glass is empty, there is no wine.
George forgot to mention whether this better off was from a base of £6000 in real terms worse of today, which will actually mean in 30 years time we will still be £4000 worse off.
Or from the 2007 base which actually equates then to only £1.06 per week.
Can’t wait, that means if i save hard in 30 years time i will be able to afford a family week in Estartit with my windfall!