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The furious cringe

Posted on August 06, 2013 by

A reader posted this clip in a comment last night and we’ve already tweeted it earlier this morning, but it really deserves to be seen as widely as possible.

(If you’re in a hurry, you can skip straight to 1m 50s.)

1978 is a long time ago, but you don’t have to look far to see the same attitude today. It’s lurking just behind Alistair Darling’s eyes every time he’s interviewed on the subject of independence, when you can see how hard he’s having to struggle to contain his rage at the sheer damned impertinence of “Scaawtland” even thinking about taking control of its own affairs.

You can hear it when Anas Sarwar, from his leather bench in the grand imperial pomp of Westminster, sneers at Scotland’s democratically-elected, proportional parliament as a “one-man dictatorship”.

You can observe it also in the hysterical bile directed by Labour at its own members for daring to oppose an official party policy position dictated to the Scottish branch by a London leadership that had to be dragged kicking and screaming into devolution.

Something dawned on us this morning. Labour is so extraordinarily exercised out of all proportion by Labour For Independence and its few dozen members because they see it the way a great many Scots see Unionist Scottish Labour – as “enemies within”, working against the interests of their own people.

But what puzzles Labour about LFI is that they can’t grasp what’s in it for them. We can see easily enough the massive self-interest of Labour MPs from Scotland, wanting to protect their well-feathered Westminster nests with their fat salaries, generous expense accounts and gold-plated pension schemes. Get yourself elected to a safe Glasgow seat at Westminster and you’re pretty much set for life.

But what do Labour For Independence stand to gain if they achieve their goal? For themselves, nothing. They’ve been bitterly ostracised by their own party, and it’s hard to see those wounds healing for a generation if Scotland votes Yes.

With no personal gain at stake, then, Labour’s Scottish apparatchiks just genuinely don’t understand why they’d be doing it. The notion that they might actually think it was in the interests of the people of Scotland is beyond their comprehension. So they assume – like bitter Old Firm fans whose blinkered worldview automatically interprets any criticism of their club as meaning someone must be a supporter of the other one – that the only possible explanation is that they must be agents of the dastardly SNP.

Labour NEED Scots to see themselves as helpless, feeble victims, because poor people are electoral captives. They successfully managed to hammer that attitude into the Scottish people in the 1970s even as unimaginable amounts of oil were gushing ashore and the Labour government was frantically fighting to suppress the knowledge of how wealthy it could have made Scotland.

The people of Hamilton swallowed it hook, line and sinker in 1978, and were rewarded with 20 years of brutal Tory government as Labour stood uselessly by. If the people of Scotland swallow it again in 2014, the future will be bleaker than anyone in even those benighted times could dared have imagine. David Cameron and George Osborne are doing their damnedest to give us a taste of it already.

In that video clip, the angry woman shouts “Scotland’ll never be able to stand alone, they cannae stand alone… what else do they produce [other than oil]?”

A bewildered Margo McDonald quietly asks “Excuse me… who are ‘they’?”

There it is, right there. Scottish people persuaded by Labour to regard Scots as aliens in their own land. The woman speaks of her own people with the vitriolic contempt of a BNP candidate ranting about immigrants.

Maybe there’s a hidden meaning to Labour’s constant talk of “foreigners”. Maybe they don’t mean the people of the rest of the UK. Maybe they mean us.

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    207 to “The furious cringe”

    1. Atypical_Scot says:

      Brilliant article, right on the button. Labour is not for the people, it’s a peerage for the upper echelons obtained through the voter’s deference. 

    2. Ron says:

      “Maybe there’s a hidden meaning to Labour’s constant talk of “foreigners”. Maybe they don’t mean the people of the rest of the UK. Maybe they mean us.”
       
      Ouch. Sad, but true. Just like Moore, who thinks his constituency is on the other side of the border.

    3. Luigi says:

      Reasons for the madness?
      1. British nationalism
      2. Personal intertest
      3. Party politics
      4. Irrational hatred of the SNP
      5. Complete lack of imagination
      6. Complete lack of confidence
      7. Gullibility
      8. Genuine cringe
       

    4. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Good point, Ron. That one needs a link editing in.

    5. Bonnie Lassie says:

      Brilliant article.  Spot on.

    6. Indy says:

      In fairness to that woman – and this is something we also need to understand about today’s referendum – when things go wrong it is usually women who are left holding the baby and wondering how they are going to feed and clothe it. We can see this today. The public sector cuts impact hardest on women, that has been shown, and it is a double whammy because not only are women most affected by cutbacks in things like care services etc (mainly staffed by women) they are also most likely to be the ones who have to make up the gap from their own time and dwindling resources. This is a generalisation of course – there are many men who act as unpaid carers, who are the main parent etc and many women who act as the breadwinner – but in general that is the case.

      So it would be a huge mistake to misinterpret the reasons women may now be less likely to vote Yes because those reasons will also make them more likely to vote Yes if they are persuaded that a Yes vote is the best way to protect public services, save things like free personal care and the NHS, free prescriptions, free access to education etc as well as providing the economic boost that will create more jobs, and better paid jobs. All the things that give their family a fighting chance at happiness and security. This is the battle we need to win.

    7. Stevie says:

      This is a fine article though I disagree that Anus and badger are just fearties; they are solely looking out for their careers and personal self-interest rather than just simply being gutless

      It is a shocking thing to see the sad sacks that stopped us getting indy up till now – I hope some of them have woken up.

    8. Doug Daniel says:

      You can also hear it when Lord Foulkes bemoans the SNP having the gall to not only govern well but to be “doing it on purpose”, as if it’ll spoil the nice little Labour hegemony they’ve cultivated over the past 50 years, where any decisions that positively affect people’s lives are purely accidental.
       
      The Old Firm analogy is brilliant, incidentally. So true. I always thought Labour’s love of “us and them” politics was about ordinary people versus the capitalist class. I had no idea the “us” was just your “he’s a good Labour man” types, and the “them” is everyone else.
       
      “You’re either with us or you’re against us”, that’s Scottish Labour’s mindset in a nutshell.

    9. BillDunblane says:

      O/T
       
      Remember campaigning hard for Margo in that election, 7 nights a week for 3 weeks.
       
      Ended up manning a polling station in Larkhall on the day – the only other person on duty there was Tory Teddy Taylor (had to admire his bravery!).
       
      Long ago, and oh so far away… 🙂
       

    10. Susan S says:

      Got to remember the lack of information available to folks back then too.  They were lead by whatever was on the front page of their local newspaper. 
       
      There’s just no excuse not to be informed in todays internet/twitter/facebook society – and yet….there are still people who say to me, ‘Referendum?  What referendum?’.  Argh! 

    11. DMyers says:

      I note with interest the question, “Do you want the devolution or assembly that you’re going to get from the Labour government?”
      We all know what happened there…

    12. famous15 says:

      Labour apparatchics just cannot understand why without the trough a Scottish politician would support independence. The fact that the SNP is better at being a Labour Party than they are consumes them with hate. That hate has spread to the “they” and it will be the death of the once proud Labour Party. That very “they” is you and me and my Aunt Jeannie and we say that Labour Party politicians have sold out for thirty pieces of silver and we are no huvvin it.

    13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “This is a fine article though I disagree that Anus and badger are just fearties; they are solely looking out for their careers and personal self-interest”

      Isn’t that what I said?

      *confused*

    14. Macart says:

      Harks back to ‘Deserving of Pity’. So much misplaced trust and an absolute belief in what they’ve been told. What happens when it all comes crashing down? That what they’ve been told is fantasy? if they’d had a little more faith in their own country rather than any single political party, so much carnage could have been avoided. God, I never want to wake up some day after the referendum and say what if or if only I had….

    15. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So it would be a huge mistake to misinterpret the reasons women may now be less likely to vote Yes”

      The post’s got nothing to do with gender, though. Men also appear later on with the same attitude, the woman just happens to be the first and the angriest and the one who says “they”.

    16. Doug Daniel says:

      Cllr Alex Gallagher (aka Braveheart) wants a 70% threshold in the referendum – something’s obviously got him rattled!
       
      http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/lets-make-voting-in-referendum-compulsory.21796405#comment-990015536

    17. John Brownlie says:

      Is it hatred of the SNP from Labour or is it fear of the SNP?

    18. Max says:

      “Too Wee, Too Stupid, Too Poor”, writ large.
       
      It is normal to attribute those quotes to the Tories and the Lib Dems, but in reality this is a Labour party mantra that has been handed down by one Scottish generation to the next. 
       
      The poor sods in this film were really beyond any help. They saw it as their civic duty to talk down Scotland. 

    19. Edulis says:

      It really is all about the Scottish cringe. We don’t deserve to take control. The laird knows best. I’m content with ma lot. Let somebody else take the lead.
      This really is a once in a lifetime opportunity to call time on perfidious Albion. Scottish history doesn’t fill me with great confidence since we have always had the dismal jimmies and those who would act in their own self-interest. The difference this time is that we can all reach beyond our immediate neighbours and beyond the clutches of the Daily Record to understand what is really happening. Vote YES.

    20. Ian says:

      I was in Lisbon for work recently and got talking to a young guy from Glasgow about the referendum. To my utter horror he more or less said the same thing as the woman in the clip and started spouting nonsense that had been debunked decades ago. It was pure BBC Scotland propaganda and it would have been laughable if it hadn’t been so tragic. After all, his generation is the one that has the most to gain from independence. We really still have a mountain to climb, especially in the west. Unionist Labour has been poisoning people’s minds for so long now that rational thinking has all but been rendered impossible in some parts of the country. We need to change that.

    21. Bobby McKail says:

      The “them and us” society, people who are apparently able to think for themselves talking about their own country/men/women as a different entity and also being in the opposing side of it. While Oil and Gas flows out the country and their children’s future with it. They have the comfort blanket of “knowing” that the Labour party will keep the Tories out and protect them, their communities and their jobs???
      Think maybe you should start writing a book for post independence Stu. Should be called Scotland: Labour, the lie and the biggest fraud in history.

    22. Ghengis says:

      “well I would like to be independent, don’t get me wrong… but I don’t think we could go it alone .. we couldnae run it ourselves .. we still [something something] Westminster”

      Incredibly sad. Thanks a lot Labour and Westminster.

    23. patronsaintofcats says:

      I moved to Scotland 8 years ago from the US and I’m always bemused and a bit saddened when Scots ask me “what made you move HERE?” Almost incredulously in fact, you can hear it in the tone of their voices.  Well, I moved in the aftermath of 9/11 and did not like what my country was becoming (and like it even less now). My husband is originally from Cornwall, but we ended up in Scotland.  And we love it like nowhere either of us has lived before.  In all that time virtually every holiday has been spent exploring every corner of this beautiful country.  My wonderful adopted home. 

      When I joined the SNP it was a couple of years after their 2007 victory and I was very impressed with what they were doing as a minority government and in spite of an ugly opposition in Holyrood. Even people in my branch (Dumfries) were constantly making cringe comments, not really believing that there would ever be a real chance to vote for independence.  The strongest supporters and most complimentary of Scotland and its prospects were the New Scots in our branch, from Spain, Denmark, China, Turkey etc.  I was amazed at how native Scots could not see how wonderful their own country is and that the sky is the limit when it comes to the future, if only they would recognise it and seize it with both hands.

      Now Scotland has that chance.  I see this as an incredibly exciting time to be living here and I do believe that Yes will win.  I know from canvassing on the doorsteps during several election cycles and a bye election that many more people support independence than support the SNP here, even conservatives.  I always chuckle when I hear the poll numbers that say less than a third of Scots support Indy.  True, there are Labour strongholds where they will always be shackled to their narrow tribalism.  People are shocked when I say this, but they remind me of the way the disenfranchesised in the US are treated by those who supposedly represent them (ie with contempt) – kept poor, uninformed and distracted with dog whistle politics so they can be whipped to vote the party line. We will never get through to some people, that much is true.  But we only have to get through to enough to win this thing.  I truly believe that when the time comes Scotland will be a free and independent nation again. And I for one can’t wait to be a part of building Scotland’s future.

    24. ianbrotherhood says:

      Does anyone recognise any of the punters in the clip? It’s too easy to dismiss this as ‘historical’. Those people were duped, one and all – most of them will be dead, but I daresay their children and grandchildren would find this of great interest, and it would be interesting to know if the sad attitudes on display have been passed-down or jettisoned.

    25. Indy says:

      I know the post had nothing to do with gender, it just struck me. That is the response of powerlessness and poverty – which of course affects both genders – the fear of losing what little you have. It’s important we understand that. These folk aren’t just stupid.

    26. Hetty says:

      Thankfully more people are informed now, if they choose to be that is. However still a lot of people without internet access so that limits their choices.
      The demonisation of the SNP and A. Salmond is a disgrace and so blatantly undemocratic you couldn’t make it up. If there’s a no vote, the future will indeed be very bleak for the people of Scotland, who knows what the tories have planned.
      They are getting away with their vicious attacks on the poorest and most vulnerable already, and so called labour are standing by, what are a dispicable lying, selfish bunch they are.

    27. patronsaintofcats says:

      Sorry, didn’t mean disenfranchised, more like proper minority enclaves, particularly in the US south.  But even now most of them have seen through the flimsy facade and crated a voting backlash.  Time for Scots to do the same.
       

    28. Seasick Dave says:

      PatronSaintofCats
       
      Thanks for the uplifting anecdote!
       
      We will win this thing together because we quite simply HAVE TO.

    29. Braco says:

      patronsaintofcats,
      Inspiring! Thank you so much for that post. We will win, no fear.

    30. Braco says:

      Seasick Dave,
      SNAP!

    31. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “These folk aren’t just stupid.”

      Sure. I don’t believe this site’s ever called any voters stupid, it’s something I make a point of avoiding. Not everyone has the time (or inclination) to obsess over politics like we do, and if all they ever hear from their elected representatives and the media are lies it’s hard not to let them seep in.

    32. wee 162 says:

      @Indy
      Very wise words. Alienating (and frankly taking the pish out of) people who are worried sick about everything is not the way ahead. Winning the referendum is obviously hugely important, but the people who are worried about it and who will likely be voting no are going to be living here too should it be a Yes.

      I understand that for the most part people are fighting fire with fire, but the side of yes are the ones who will need to be in a position to run the country straight after the vote in terms of driving the agenda during negotiations. A wildly divided country will be a nightmare to bring together if the winning side have alienated a sizeable portion of the population by calling them halfwits for being on a different side from them during the campaign. Same goes for the No side as well obviously, but there’s no control we have over them.

      I’m completely up for playing as dirty as No on the political battlefield and hammering their arguments. I’m not up for labelling those who’ll vote differently from me as stupid. They have their reasons, if we can’t persuade them, that’s fair enough, but let’s not denigrate them for us not being able to bring them onto our side. The Yes campaign has the stronger message on every single part of what makes people worry about stuff, it’s up to the campaign and those supporting it to present people that message in a way that’s persuasive.

    33. tartanfever says:

      Iain – no, don’t recognise anyone apart from the politicians i that clip – but it reminds me exactly of something I saw on the BBC just s few months ago.
      Reporting Scotland were up in Stirling and interviewing various people. I remember a shot of 3 oap’s standing on the street corner, council houses behind – working class area, and one of the oap’s said ‘look at us, we’ve done alright’. (meaning by Westminster, in the union)
      Thats all she had to say. But those three little words are so telling. They also mean:
      If it’s good enough for us, it’s good enough for our children
      We have no ambition whatsoever
      Things can’t actually get any better
      This is your lot in life, accept it
      We’re second class citizens
      I’ve no world view whatsoever
      Depressed the hell out of me I have to admit, and it’s exactly the same attitude displayed in the clip here.
       

    34. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Very wise words. Alienating (and frankly taking the pish out of) people who are worried sick about everything is not the way ahead.”

      The post doesn’t do that. It’s about Labour and how why these people have been conditioned for decades to think the way they do. Absolutely nobody’s called them stupid.

    35. Doug Daniel says:

      I do enjoy seeing a straw man getting well and truly battered.

    36. CameronB says:

      The ‘cringe’ has been transmitted by unionist for over three hundred years now, much in the same way an STD is (i.e. through close personal contact). The sole intention of those deliberately spreading the ‘cringe’, has been the preservation of London as the dominant force in the British state. Lots of vested interests to look after, down there.
       
      The emergence of Labour for Independence could be seen as natural growth, much like penicillin. Hopefully, LfI will have a similarly antibiotic effect within SLabour and help rid Scotland of this particularly nasty foreign infection.
       
      Vote Yes, to help stamp out the ‘cringe’ from Scotland’s body politic.

    37. Vronsky says:

      Had a couple of drinks with a member of the local Labour Party a wee while ago – unplanned accident, we had friends in common.  She is a very bright young woman, and we discovered that we disagreed on practically nothing.  So why are we on opposite sides? she eventually asked, genuinely puzzled.  She got the unkind (but hopefully useful)  answer: only one of us has realised that you are working for a right-wing party. 

      The Cringe is pornography.  Darling, Galloway, MacDougall, Robertson, Lamont, Gray, Brown, on an on, so many names – all of them faking orgasm for money. 

      Porn stars have interesting names.  Let’s have fun choosing screen names for these  significant sluts and studs. 

      Oh, shit.  Fundraising competition looming.  Apologies all round.

    38. Jiggsbro says:

      Absolutely nobody’s called them stupid.
       
      Some of them are certainly stupid. But then some stupid people will be voting ‘Yes’ as well.

    39. ianbrotherhood says:

      Some of the people in the clip could still be alive. 
       
      At 0.37-0.45, 1.29 and 1.39, some younger folk – it would be great to track them down.
       
      Anyone recognise the factory where Margo was speaking?

    40. Stuart Black says:

      @patronsaintofcats, lovely post with some great points, thanks for this.
       
       

    41. Vronsky says:

      @jiggs
      “Some of them are certainly stupid. But then some stupid people will be voting ‘Yes’ as well.”
       
      That is the challenge, and where the critical balance lies.  Get the intelligent to vote yes.  Influence the influencers.  The stupid seek comfort.  We must make Yes sound like comfort.  My God, I sound like Goebbels.

    42. Jamie Arriere says:

      Come on folks, the clip is 35 years old. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then – the failed referendum, Thatcherism, the miners’ strike (the wummin thought things were bad in the coal mines then – was she in for a shock!?), the closure of Ravenscraig, the feeble 50, Tony Blair (wonder what she thought of him?), the successful referendum, and now the SNP at 48% in the polls. If the ‘shouty’ woman is still with us, and I hope she is, I wonder what she thinks of Johann Lamont questioning her right to free personal care – and we know she can do angry!
       
      The clip’s historical and shows working class Labour at their absolute height. The only way is doon!

    43. Yesitis says:

      Yes Scotland should show this clip, just as it is here, (perhaps, as a point on a regular basis) instead of a party political broadcast. Superimposed over the clip would be images of Alastair Darling, Johann Lamont, Michael Kelly, Blair McDougall, Ed (One Nation) Milliband with guest appearances from blue Labour Tories: David Cameron, George Osbourne, Ruth Davison etc. (Willie Rennie can make the tea).
       
      The unionist ‘too wee, too poor, too stupid’ mantra in the form of quotes from Alastair Darling and Blair McDougall`s crew may also accompany the superimposed images.
       
      What is happening around us now is playing out like a political broken record from the unionists; the above clip reveals as much about some Scots as it does about the lying, bastard Labour party. A mirror held up in front of all of us may just reveal our true face and whether or not we trust ourselves to be ourselves.
       

    44. Jeannie says:

      @Vronsky
       
      So why are we on opposite sides? she eventually asked, genuinely puzzled
       
      That’s what puzzles the rest of us too.  These common goals can be achieved by voting for independence because there is generally a left of centre bias in Scottish politics, but cannot be achieved by voting to stay in the union as there is a right wing bias at Westminster.  What’s the problem?  Just vote Yes!

    45. “the future will be bleaker than anyone in even those benighted times could dared have imagine. David Cameron and George Osborne are doing their damnedest to give us a taste of it already.”
      What really worries me is that with the referendum just around the corner that this is the Tories holding back and playing nice. After a No vote they won’t hold back, so if this is what they are doing now, I dread to think what they have planned for after the referendum

    46. patronsaintofcats says:

      Thanks all for the kind comments.  The only thing I worry about is the age old dirty tricks brigade – vote rigging and fraud. This must be scrupulously monitored considering Labours past form here.  That is where my use of disenfranchised came from.  In the southern US if they don’t think you’ll vote their way then they will throw everything they have at preventing you from your democratic right to vote.  Or in Labour’s case, getting the dead to the polls.  I would be much happier if there were a neutral international body overseeing the Indy ref vote.

    47. chalks says:

      Self-loathing scots, that don’t realise that they loathe themselves due to being manipulated and fed pish everyday about what they ‘can’t’ do.
      You tell a person in any independent country that they can’t do something based on nationality and see what happens….do it here and you are voted into power. 

    48. balgayboy says:

      Been trying unsuccessfully to locate the infamous 1979 Herald cartoon “I’m Feart” The WOS headline clip sums the cartoon up as far as I’m concerned. Would appreciate it if someone smarter than me on this site can source and link it. Definitely moved on from these unenlightened days.

    49. I covered similar slips of the unionist tongues in my “who are we” blog. the Scottish cringe is being exposed, years of subliminal messages from the media: main news important stuff, “and now the news from where you are”  RTAs , criminal activities ‘and finally – humourous pawky anecdotes.   Real politics doesn’t happen in Scotland.  

    50. Bawheid Bragg says:

      Can’t remember the name – 70s Labour politician who said ‘I’M your parliament!’, there was a clip of someone recounting this in ‘The Road to Referendum’…says it all IMO.

    51. sneddon says:

      You see the same sort of cringe everywhere in working class communities in England as well.  Just ‘get on with it’, ‘too good for the likes of us’.  This partly explains, for example, the lack of applicants to oxbridge from working class applicants.  
      The difference nowto the 70’s  is that it is easier in a way to sell YES as the current condem coalition are making it pretty easy to push the ‘we can’t go on like this’ approach.  Also 19 years of tory govt and 13 of new labour have given us a taste of government making decisions the majority didn’t want and now folk are sick of it along with endless scandals.  They just need ‘nudged’ and in my experience once you start talking to them and putting the debate in a context they can understand you can see the lights pop on.
      Another difference  from the 70’s now especially for those on benefits and low incomes is there is everything to lose continuing with the status quo and everything to gain with independence.  Once that is recognised the fear is gone.  To keep what you’ve got the status quo is unthinkable vote YES to keep what you’ve got and have the potential to gain more.
       
       

    52. BuckieBraes says:

      @Vronsky
      The Cringe is pornography.  Darling, Galloway, MacDougall, Robertson, Lamont, Gray, Brown, on an on, so many names – all of them faking orgasm for money. 
       
      I’m now going to carry that mental image around for the rest of the day, and it really isn’t pleasant.
       
      On a brighter note, I’ve just had confirmation (with little prompting) of another two Yes converts. Dundee again, of course!
       

    53. Gordon Bain says:

      @ patronsaintofcats
       
      You’ve made my day. Thank you.

    54. Caroline Corfield says:

      it’s evidence of natural selection at play, if all the good graduate jobs are not in Scotland then all the good graduates leave, they build lives elsewhere. You wait for the next generation, and there will still be people who are clever, people who are determined, people with ambition, not just graduates, but tool makers, and skilled workers, and then there are less and less jobs for those people to do so they move away, and then you’re left with areas where the brightest kids realise drug dealing is the only way to make money, or they too move away. What does that leave you with? The whole country – not just it’s raw materials – has been asset stripped for generations. And yet still there is hope, because there is always hope. Hope is the blue sky seen through bars. Let’s break out.

    55. Jamie Arriere says:

      @ianbrotherhood
       
      The best my eyesight can make out is “Mackays” (?) possibly with an “&” next to it. Maybe some Lanarkshire local will have a better idea. I’d be surprised if it’s still there.
       
      Just checked to see who the MSP for Hamilton is = Christina McKelvie (SNP!!!)

    56. balgayboy says:

      Memphisto says: @ 12.37 pm
      Thank you. 

    57. Jiggsbro says:

      The stupid seek comfort.  We must make Yes sound like comfort
       
      The stupid – and the intelligent – vote for all sorts of reasons. Tribalism, security, tradition, personalities, greed, comfort, fear, resentment, hope, fantasy…sometimes even rational assessment of the facts. Some of those we can address, some we can’t: it would be difficult to make ‘Yes’ sound like ‘how your parents voted’ or ‘the right school’ or ‘international statesman’, for example. All we can do is make ‘Yes’ sound as positive as possible.

    58. heraldnomore says:

      Oh Shit!  I voted for Robertson in that election.  It’s a confession I know, but the things we do when young and foolish…… I had the excuse that it was old Labour, socialist Labour, the one that LfI remembers.  But I won’t be doing it again.
      It might have been Phillips factory – can’t think of any others, though it looks to have been a much smaller complex.  Funnily enough Phillips factory today flies a massive UJ.

    59. ianbrotherhood says:

      @heraldnomore-
       
      Which area was Phillips in?

    60. Quick the suns oot says:

      It breaks my heart to watch this 🙁 What a job Westminster has done in Scotland.
      My dad told me about the peculiar Scottish cringe when I was young and I’ve seen it many times since. Rather than admit it for what it is though they furiously grope around for reasons to vote no, no matter how ludicrous those reasons are.
      Even now when politicians no longer deny Scotland could go it alone (merely that it shouldnt) those with the cringe refuse to hear any other message than the original too wee, too poor, too stupid. Will they ever wake up?

    61. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Can’t remember the name – 70s Labour politician who said ‘I’M your parliament!’, there was a clip of someone recounting this in ‘The Road to Referendum’…says it all IMO.”

      I believe it was Tom Johnston, the (Labour) Scottish Secretary.

    62. Jamie Arriere says:

      @balgayboy @memphisto,
       
      I know the one you mean – but the one I remember is the lion sitting in a cage with the door open. Don’t think that’s the one, memphisto, but it’s the right cartoonist (Jim Turnbull).

    63. ianbrotherhood says:

      The Philips factory appears in this clip, as does Robertson, taking Healey walkabout (is that a young Helen Lidl at 1.27?)
       
      http://ssa.nls.uk/film.cfm?fid=N0683

    64. muttley79 says:

      @Rev Stu
       
      “Labour NEED Scots to see themselves as helpless, feeble victims, because poor people are electoral captives. They successfully managed to hammer that attitude into the Scottish people in the 1970s even as unimaginable amounts of oil were gushing ashore and the Labour government was frantically fighting to suppress the knowledge of how wealthy it could have made Scotland.”
       
      ‘In that video clip, the angry woman shouts “Scotland’ll never be able to stand alone, they cannae stand alone… what else do they produce [other than oil]?”
      A bewildered Margo McDonald quietly asks “Excuse me… who are ‘they’?”
      There it is, right there. Scottish people persuaded by Labour to regard Scots as aliens in their own land. The woman speaks of her own people with the vitriolic contempt of a BNP candidate ranting about immigrants.’
       
      @Luigi
       
      Reasons for the madness?
      1. British nationalism
      2. Personal intertest
      3. Party politics
      4. Irrational hatred of the SNP
      5. Complete lack of imagination
      6. Complete lack of confidence
      7. Gullibility
      8. Genuine cringe
       
      Good guide to Scottish politics…
       
       

    65. les wilson says:

      Maybe the SNP have a card up their sleeve, after a YES vote the SNP will become redundant after free elections. So perhaps they may arise as the “SCOTTISH NATIONAL LABOUR PARTY?
      Hmmm crafty sod that Alex Salmond, it would be a move that would most probably guarantee long term results for them. After all, they have the policies, they have the experience, with a whole lot of the old Slab votes flying to them in support.
      The old guard would be hammered, never to recover, and Scotland would have all they want in terms of a good valid government that works with the Scottish people in their needs. 
      Hmmm, what do you think guys.

    66. Nick says:

      ‘Scottish Parliament: I’m your Scottish Parliament’
      Willie Ross, 1967.
      Road to Referendum Part 1.

    67. Alan says:

      Wtf is ah ‘coenstittishawnel ithshoe’ ?

    68. Rod Mac says:

      Anyone recognise the factory where Margo was speaking?
       
      what is a factory?

    69. muttley79 says:

      @John Brownlie
       
       
      Is it hatred of the SNP from Labour or is it fear of the SNP?
       
      I reckon it is both.  The hatred arises from the SNP challenging and beating SLAB.  Fear and then hatred.   

    70. NorthBrit says:

      @Doug Daniel
      Only one explanation for the 70% rule Tammany Hall mob.
       
      They think they’re going to lose.
       

    71. SCED300 says:

      The condition shown by the people in the film is called Learned Helplessness.
      Interesting too, that, apart from Margo MacDonald, they all looked old, though maybe many weren’t!
      In a curious way, Margaret Thatcher was a boon for Labour; they spent the next 30years, saying look what she did,vote for us. However they didn’t do anything about the disaster she left, it just kept them in power, e.g. Margaret Curran, Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, MP for one of the poorest constituencies in Scotland.
      By the way, where is Johann Lamont?

    72. AlexMcI says:

      @ianbrotherhood. The Philips factory is in Hamilton at the moment, don’t know if was always there. Right across the road from Aldi.

    73. NorthBrit says:

      Oh f…  Who’s they?  @35s

      Reminds of Alistair Darling speaking to Blair McDougall.

    74. Macart says:

      @patronsaintofcats
       
      Lovely post. Big smiley. 🙂

    75. Jamie Arriere says:

      Doesn’t look like Philips to me – looks way too wee. Best option – ask/email Margo! She can’t have forgotten that woman (though she’s probably met more than most)

    76. Albert Herring says:

      “Helen Lidl”
       
      Cheap shot.

    77. Robert Kerr says:

      Phillips in Hamilton was and is in Wellhall Road, the manufacturing plant. Sales is out of Guildford, Surrey so no profit to Scotland. Ultimately was NV Phillips Gloelampenfabriken, Eindhoven, Netherlands. ( all from memory but that was then.)
      Sad again that the people are unaware. 
      Hail Caesar!
       

    78. Memphisto says:

      The Philips factory was built in the 1940s and used to be twice the size it is now.  The Aldi store I believe lies on part of the area where the factory used to be.  I am certain it is the same factory based on Google Street View but the video may have been filmed in the area that is now no longer there as I couldnt match the buildings exactly.

    79. Rusty Shackleford says:

      I’ve been doing a little research on my family history and was reminded that my grandfather was a Labour councillor in the 1960s/70s. While I can’t say what his view on independence would be, I’m pretty certain he’d be horrified by what SLab has become.
       

    80. JLT says:

      To be honest, I think we have all suffered a version of that wifey at 1 minute 50 seconds. There are a couple of lads in my work who are Unionist, and believe in all things British.
      Different era, but same old lines being cast at me. However, unlike the poor chap who gets a tongue-lashing, I’ve found that with all the knowledge that I have gained from this very site, the tables are easily turned, when I ask the two chaps, to tell me the good points of the Union. Obviously, they struggle.
      This in turn, leads to the usual guff ….’I hate that b******, Salmond’, ‘we jist cannae dae it’, ‘We’ll be bankrupt within a year’. These are not answers, but just belly rumbles with no explanations.
      Curiously, when I do pressure them for answers …we always seem to skip to the football, or ‘did ye see what happened to soan-so’. Awfully strange that…

    81. Luigi says:

      My dear old mum sounded just like those naysayers in 1978.
      My dear old mum still sounded like that, as recently as 2012.
      But now she is telling me she is “undecided”!
       
      Must be the effects of the Fukushima fallout!

    82. Holebender says:

      les wilson; Labour is dying and when it loses the referendum it’ll be dead. Why should the winning side rename itself after the losers just when everybody will have turned against them? It would be folly to go anywhere near the Labour brand unless you were trying to build something new out of the ashes. In other words former Labour people could be justified in adopting the name for a reincarnation but the SNP would be crazy to go anywhere near the name!

    83. annie says:

      The interview was taking place in the Larkhall MINERS Welfare Bowling Club… they were SOCIALISTS not NATIONALISTS fer Christ’s sake! Their solidarity priority was towards fellow English/Welsh miners NOT Nationalists of whatever persuasion – what did the interviewer expect them to say??? He should’ve hung around a bit longer with the camera off… OK, so they eventually got Margaret Thatcher (with everyone of them, no doubt, fighting and picketing like men possessed all over Britain during the strike) and they certainly didnae vote for THAT! Pity they didnae have a crystal ball…
      Incidentally, Hamilton/Larkhall  now has an SNP SMP, Christine McKelvie. History, Hardship and Heartbreak are good teachers.
       
       

    84. Rod Mac says:

      All the Unionists will be personna non gratia in the event of a YES Vote.
      All the London Parties will be toxic in the event of a YES Vote.
      In the event of a No Vote (god forbid) ALL SNP Parties and individuals will still be there and will in all probability get another 2016 landslide and I would suggest take 20+ Labour Westminster seats.
      The Unionists have staked everything on a No Vote ,this Referendum to SNP is all part of the Gradualist strategy.Independence became guaranteed in 2007 ,now it is only a matter of when ,not if.

    85. Seasick Dave says:

      My mum was always a No, don’t scare the sheep type person but not anymore!
       
      She’s a definite Yes.
       
      Dad was a fence sitter (Lib Dem) but vociferously a Yes now as well. We won’t mention what he thinks of JoLa 🙂
       

    86. allan mckeown says:

      at 03:11  chap in the club estimates the annual oil income at 30 million pounds and considers it “pie in the sky”
      I still hear this sort of attitude today both about remaining oil and the potential of renewables and other industry. The idea that scotland is somehow fatally flawed as a country is deeply ingrained, it almost seems like a source of comfort for some.

    87. SeorasOg says:

      Couple of things ..

      Aye, the 70% idea sounds like they think they are on a loser – why come up with anything fresh when a percentage limit worked before ?

      I get the same thing as JLT – when I put over a measured, rational case for independence when asked about (insert pretty much any question on the ‘dinnae ken’ list) the conversation quickly changes to the weather, internet cats and whit’s fur tea *sigh*

      As for shouty wummin – 35 years later and my partner’s mum could do this lady’s voiceover in a remake. Still hasn’t figured out that Labour have left the left behind. Cannot provide an opinion without recourse to shouting (usually about AS it must be said). Oddly, with a former trade union rep husband, she reads the Daily Fail (for jockos) and thinks it to be the centre ground.

      Leaving their browser on WOS, NNS, etc. is all I can do these days. Leave on screen and hope it sinks in.

      Feeling upbeat though – changed a No No No to a Don’t Know I’ll Do Some Reading waiting in the post office queue this morning – the YES lanyard being the conversation starter. Big Mountains, Small Steps.

      🙂

    88. Currywurst says:

      Starting with your amazing ability to see things “behind the eyes” of Alistair Darling, and ending with your telepathic knowledge that some woman was “persuaded by Labour” to believe something, I haven’t read anything so arrogant in a long time.

    89. Currywurst says:

       
      Rod Mac says:
       
      All the Unionists will be personna non gratia in the event of a YES Vote.”
       
      Ah, excellent, here we go again.
       
      So how is this “persona non grata” (note spelling) status for millions of your countrymen to be enforced?
       
      Marched to the border?
       
      Swinging from the lamp-posts?
       
      Oops, nearly into Godwin territory.
       
      Waiting for all the denunciations of this threat to appear.

    90. Stuart Black says:

      “Scaawtland”
       
      How bloody annoying is that? I tend to hear it as ‘Scoawitlohnd’ and it never fails to raise the hackles.
       
      😉

    91. sneddon says:

      Rod Mac- eh? ‘Unionists persona non grata’- eh?  Do you mean the likes of the current lot of labour MPS, nevertheless a bit of a daft statement.  You’re thinking like a britnat.

    92. dmw42 says:

      When all reasoned discussions seem to have failed, I’ve resorted to saying “come a yes vote, there’ll be no such thing as Rich Tea Biscuits, it’ll be People’s Tea Buscuits”.

    93. Morag says:

      Waiting for all the denunciations of this threat to appear.
       
      I’ll denounce it right now if you like.  Bloody stupid thing to say.  We all have to go on living together in an independent Scotland.  (I suspect he was talking about the unionist politicians pushing the BT line, but even so, it’s uncalled-for.)

    94. dmw42 says:

      apoplexies about the spooling – spill chucker not Woking

    95. Alan says:

      @ patronsaintofcats
      Very good post btw. I see where you’re coming from. When that video was aired I was 18 working as an apprentice in Falkirk [Alexanders -Bluebird buses]. Having just arrived back from Zimbabwe [Rhodesia] a year previously. Leaving Scotland at the age of 12 and living in SA before Zim I had to listen to stories of people who knew more about my country than I did! So I hit the mountains and the bothies as the hillwalking bug took hold. My work-mates in Falkirk were supportive and had their own tales of fishing the big rivers of the Tay and Spey.

      As a journeyman I started work in the Busworks [Butterbiggins Road – long gone] for the Glasgow Corp. What a sea-change. The arrogance and ignorance was astounding. Took a constant slagging for my views on Independance and my voting for SNP. Although they were a few exceptions, funnily enough from the managerial ranks who had the same pursuits. You could see the whole thing like a tapestry. People who knew absolutely nothing about Scotland outside an area of Glasgow yet took holidays in Benidorm! Trade Unions with their closed shops in cahoots with management manipulating everything. The ‘old-firm’ which you could see right through without any knowledge. Luckily, in my days in the mountains I learned of the Clearances and much more from real men by the bothy fireside who strangely enough couldn’t care less about football!.They wanted an Independent Scotland.

      Changed days now. Go up the mountains now and their very busy as lifestyles have changed. Now it’s time to change our Nation.

    96. O/T: Back from hols and mildly surprised the BBC’s I Love My Country hasn’t received the Wings treatment. Here’s my take on it.

    97. Seasick Dave says:

      Currywurst gets it right for once 🙂
       
      What are you on about, Rod Mac?

    98. Jamie Arriere says:

      Och, just calm down CW – he means politically and electorally, anybody with an ounce of sense can tell that. Your No vote will be between you and your conscience – nothing to do with us – and you’ll be free to get on with your weary life.
       
      Now away and have a cup of tea!

    99. Seasick Dave says:

      Currywurst, while you are in da hood, what are your aspirations for Scotland, post referendum?

    100. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Starting with your amazing ability to see things “behind the eyes” of Alistair Darling, and ending with your telepathic knowledge that some woman was “persuaded by Labour” to believe something, I haven’t read anything so arrogant in a long time.”

      Thanks for keeping us up to date.

    101. Sandy says:

      Is it me or does the shrill lady doing the heckling sound a lot like Johann Lamont on a bad day at FMQs ?

    102. ianbrotherhood says:

      Can we have a partner-thread for this one called The Curious Fringe? Don’t know what it would be about right enough…

    103. NorthBrit says:

      @CW
      Personnae non gratae.  Note spelling.  I’d have thought you’d be more familiar with the term.

    104. Seasick Dave says:

      IanB
       
      JoLa’s syrup?

    105. ianbrotherhood says:

      @SeasickDave-
       
      Good shout. Or it could be about undecided voters. Or LFI. 

    106. Doug Daniel says:

      I wonder if the indy debate will ever rise above the level of “I DEMAND YOU PUBLICLY DENOUNCE THIS THING SOMEONE ELSE SAID, OTHERWISE IT MEANS YOU AGREE WITH IT”? It’s getting ever so tiresome.
       
      There are folk on our own side who do it too, of course, which just exacerbates the problem – SNP press releases are pretty bad for it. It’s the kind of playground stuff that turns people off politics.
       
      Everyone is responsible for their own words and no one else’s.

    107. Jiggsbro says:

      So how is this “persona non grata” (note spelling) status for millions of your countrymen to be enforced?
       
      What do you imagine ‘persona non grata’ means, in colloquial use? The threat you perceive is the ‘threat’ that some people will hold some other people in contempt, a state which has existed since there were more than three people.

    108. NorthBrit says:

      @Doug Daniel
      Tend to agree.  
       
      However, Rod Mac’s post was a statement of opinion, not a threat.  I am struggling to think of precedents that don’t support his point of view.  From post independence America, to Ireland, there are plenty that do.  Regardless of whether right-thinking people approve of this or not.

    109. Macart says:

      Its amazing what a change that parly of ours has made in its short life. Most especially since the SNP took over, the profile of oor wee country has taken a dramatic upturn. I was attending a highland wedding at the weekend (what I remember of it) and what I saw put a big grin on my face. A mix of old and new, youngsters in kilts and fogies in suits, old music, new music. Lots of talk on the referendum in this one time solid Liberal area. Take a wild guess as to how these folks were talking.
       
      Some were simply talking in terms of ‘OUR’ parliament and ‘THEIR’ parliament, about the difference having a voice with some bite has made (reason enough to smile). Some were talking about giving yon wee lad in Edinburgh a chance wi this independence thing, he’s done no bad so far. A few lads I shared a medicinal beverage with were discussing future opportunities in an independent Scotland as if it had already happened. The cringe may still be evident out there, but its on the retreat.

    110. Jamie Arriere says:

      Anyone looking for reading material – I found this while looking for the Turnbull cartoon which is mentioned in the text. It’s a lecture Professor Tom Devine gave to the EIS in 2008, describing the change in Scotland since the time of that shouty woman, albeit as the shite was about to hit the fan in the financial markets. Haven’t read it all yet.
      http://www.eis.org.uk/images/pdf/lecture%20transcript%20booklet.pdf

    111. Rod Mac says:

      My point was at the ballot box ,only unionists could twist it any other way.
      How many votes did Ian Smith get in Zimbabwe post liberation from Colonial rule?
      How about the Communists in Poland and East Germany  post Berlin Wall down

    112. les wilson says:

      O/T 
      Just found out the oldest calendar ever found, has been found in a Scottish field, 8,000 thousand years old.
      If Stu will allow here is the link.
      http://www.gizmag.com/worlds-oldest-calendar/28468/

    113. Morag says:

      Well, yes, but you know unionists will twist anything into a nasty interpretation.  You have to be very careful how you word things, because unionists will never “see” what your point actually is if they can find a way to tweet about racism or witch-hunts or the evil intolerance of nats.
       
      That’s why I said it was a bloody stupid thing to say.

    114. Rod Mac says:

      That’s why I said it was a bloody stupid thing to say
      ——————————————————————————————————————-
      I respect your opinion however I dispute it of course.
      I am sick and tired of walking on eggshells for unionists.
      while they hurl every insult they can think of at anyone that is Pro 
      Indy.
      I stand by my original point, post a YES Vote  all those unionist parties and politicians that have opposed Scottish Self Determination with lies ,smears ,jeers and sneers will be as welcome at the ballot box as a dose of herpes in a harem.

    115. Holebender says:

      Actually, les wilson, that calendar is 10,000 years old (8000 BC)!
       
      It’s in the grounds of Crathes Castle, near Banchory.
       
      Incidentally, I grew up in a farmhouse with is due south from Crathes Castle, on the other side of the Dee.

    116. Seasick Dave says:

      Les
       
      I think that web address might get rejected by our server 😉

    117. Vronsky says:

      Old calendar: early reports say that September 18th 2014 has been circled.  Spooky, or what?

    118. Holebender says:

      I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN, Seasick Dave!

      p.s. My earlier post above should read “which”, not “with”! Getting in a hurry again…

    119. Morag says:

      I thought Scotland was uninhabited 10,000 years ago, on account of being entirely covered with ice.  Interesting.
       
      Rod Mac, I agree with what you now say you “stand by”, but that’s not what you said in the original post.  I know walking on eggshells is tedious, but these people don’t play nice.  Of course they will twist the most innocent comment or action into something sinister, but it’s helpful to avoid giving them ammunition whenever possible.

    120. G H Graham says:

      Labour has fed a poverty stricken working class population of Scots with self loathing propaganda for generations so that it could have its vote on polling day. Black community leaders in America still conduct business this way because they too can depend on the ill informed, disenfranchised, isolated African American to put a cross in the right box when required.
      The logic is quite convincing when the voter has it repeatedly confirmed by people that apparently know better, that one of the primary reasons for their poverty is a right wing political agenda that seeks to keep them where they belong. There’s actually some evidence to support that idea; benefit caps, bedroom tax, tax breaks for the wealthy, abolishing of 10p tax rates etc.
      However, Scots have been told over and over that they are poor because it is unavoidable. The British Establishment depends on Scottish ignorance so that it can take full economic advantage of Scotland’s resources as it sees fit (e.g. McCrone report buried for years ). Meanwhile, Labour participates in the Establishment’s charade while ironically, falsely finger pointing at the opposition as it shifts its own policy framework to the right.
      Slowly though, the facts are emerging from websites just like this, that reveal the duplicity, lies & propaganda propagated by those whose economic & financial self interest float to the top of their own agenda.
      Many Scots are now realising how bad Unionism has been for their country. The ranting, puerile rubbish coming out of the mouths of Darling, Blair, Sanwar, the BBC & the Scottish press indicates the fear amongst Unionists that the end game might be approaching & that their political careers & economic advantage is at risk if Scots choose independence.
      The only way to end this 3rd War of Scottish Independence & give Scots the opportunity to realise their full potential, freed from the shackles of London, the self centred British Establishment & the greedy Westminster politicians is to do the right thing and vote “YES”. 

    121. scottish_skier says:

      I thought Scotland was uninhabited 10,000 years ago, on account of being entirely covered with ice.  Interesting.

      That was the time of the Loch Lomond re-advance, so only limited ice cover confined mainly to the Western Highlands.

      Rather chilly though. Warmed up quite quickly afterwards allowing folk to move in.

    122. Morag says:

      So how far back does human habitation go for Scotland as a whole?

    123. Holebender says:

      Morag, 10,000 years ago was when the ice receded and people began repopulating the previously frozen land. The fascinating thing about this calendar, for me, is that it can only have been built and used by people who had settled in one place, i.e. had given up the nomadic hunter-gatherer lifestyle. One could never make the initial observations necessary or have had any use for the calendar if one only passed through an area seasonally. It seems our ancestors settled down sooner that we (I, at least) thought.

    124. Morag says:

      I was misled by having watched a video specific to the Isle of Mull, where it said that human habitation only went back about 4,000 years, or maybe that was to 4,000 BC.  I didn’t realise that was only referring to that corner of the country.

    125. Holebender says:

      Morag, the answer to your how far back human habitation goes question is probably unknowable. All we can know is how far it goes back since the end of the last ice age. Evidence of all previous habitation was obliterated by the ice. There is no doubt our land was inhabited by humans before the ice, though.

    126. david says:

      i think some  big name from the s.n.p, just before the release of the white paper, should make a big fuss publicly that this well thoughtout and substantial document will be  in such detail that an oragutang or even johan lamont will understand it.. 
      Its pretty obvious that the no campaigne will say all the usual stuff bout no detail, no answers etc

    127. Geoff Huijer says:

      @patronsaintofcats
       
      Your post brought a tear to my eye. Wonderful stuff!
       
      Might re-post to facebook if you are ok with that…

    128. Taranaich says:

      It’s your typical racket setup. Convince the people you’re trying to hold down that they need you, that they couldn’t possibly live or function or survive without your assistance. 
       
      You know, I was watching A Bug’s Life with my niece the other day. The film’s plot is about how an ant colony produces a huge amount of food… which they proceed to give to a gang of grasshoppers. The grasshoppers have convinced the ants that they “need” them for protection against the dangers outside the colony, bully them into thinking they’re insignificant, that they couldn’t possibly survive on their own. All through the film the other ants are totally convinced that there can be no other way, they’ve bought into the lies. Then it just took one wee ant to stand up and tell it like it was:
       
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC_Xsd2ekkw
       
      Just replace ants with Scots, grasshoppers with Westminster, food with oil/money.
       
      Children’s stories often cut through to inherent truths, don’t they?
       
      So how is this “persona non grata” (note spelling) status for millions of your countrymen to be enforced?
       
      I don’t know, CW. Maybe we’ll start sending out immigration officers and randomly ask people on the street to see their papers, make sure they have the “right” ones. Or have a wee van drive about saying “Voted No? Go To England Or Face Arrest.” Or start bundling people into vans because they weren’t the right sort of people. But really, I can’t see anything like that happening in a democratic country, can you?

    129. Taranaich says:

      So how far back does human habitation go for Scotland as a whole?
       
      The earliest we’ve found is 11,000 BC: a few flint artifacts at Biggar, and a flint arrowhead near Bridgend from about two centuries later. The best early stuff I’m aware of is Cramond, with thousands of artifacts from 8,500 BC.

    130. muttley79 says:

      @G H Graham
       
      Black community leaders in America still conduct business this way because they too can depend on the ill informed, disenfranchised, isolated African American to put a cross in the right box when required.
       
      I can’t agree with that.  Up until the 1960s all black Americans did not have the right to vote.  Even in recent elections some black people have been denied the right to vote (in the 2000 election in Florida for instance) because of having a criminal conviction.  Black Americans are much more likely to be jailed.  As we saw in the recent case racism and different standards are still very much alive.  Poverty as been a constant of many black Americans’ lives since the days of slavery to the present day.  

    131. patronsaintofcats says:

      Geoff Huijer says:
      6 August, 2013 at 5:35 pm

      @patronsaintofcats
       
      Your post brought a tear to my eye. Wonderful stuff!
       
      Might re-post to facebook if you are ok with that
      ——————————————————————-
      Of course, please re-post if you feel like sharing 🙂

    132. Andy-B says:

      I see that old Labour fool Tam Dalyell in the press today urging the BT camp and the Westminster Government to ABOLISH..the Holyrood Government, and make sure theirs no mention of independence ever again.

    133. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Tam has also refused to have anything to do with the  Better Together campaign and has described it as “fraudulent”

    134. CameronB says:

      Quite apt Morag, re. Tam Dalyell. He is indeed yesterday’s man.

    135. Morag says:

      Ouch!  Nice one.

    136. Morag says:

      Has somebody kidnapped Stu?  Eight hours without a new post….

    137. Holebender says:

      While the cat’s away…

    138. Jiggsbro says:

      I stand by my original point, post a YES Vote  all those unionist parties and politicians that have opposed Scottish Self Determination with lies ,smears ,jeers and sneers will be as welcome at the ballot box as a dose of herpes in a harem.
       
      They may not be very popular with many who’ve voted Yes, but they might still appeal to those who voted No. I imagine, for example, that Conservatives will largely vote No in 2014 and Conservative in 2016. Likewise, there’ll be many No/Labour voters. When we win, we might be better directing our energies to building a nation rather than to resenting those who had a different vision of the future. Losing will be painful enough for them.

    139. Ian Mackay says:

      Turnbull’s feart lion cartoon in 1979 on this blog:
      http://tinyurl.com/lyg5ljl

    140. Morag says:

      No, that’s the same one again.  We’re looking for the one with the open cage door and the lion still cowering inside.

    141. Albalha says:

      @jiggsboro
      ‘When we win’
      How sure are you of that, I can only hope, but the more I speak to people the more I worry ….. the level of individual ignorance, wilful or otherwise, is breathtaking. And it’s not just about the BBC and the MSM, in my very humble opinion.  My 80 ish year old mother, who’d I convinced to vote YES, had a wobble after the Canavan ‘we won’t keep the monarchy’ reports. I’ve sorted that but everyone has to convince as many as they can on a personal level.
      However the so called Labour Party is a bloody disgrace, I openly loathe them.
      Of course that’s a lot to do with the reality of growing up in Dundee in the late 70’s…and to be fair the truth.
      And where is the YES campaign, a few stalls are not going to do it. All the witter on twitter, blogs etc doesn’t reach the majority and that’s what needs to be done if we’re going to get over the line.
       
       
       

    142. Annan Urrahing says:

      After the secretary of state for Westminster’s assertion that he represents a constituency bordering Scotland I see in today’s “I” that Mohammad Sarwar is quoted as saying in Pakistan that he has “come to Pakistan with a heavy heart, leaving behind the companionship of 35 years in ENGLAND, (my capitals) but my heart beats for Pakistan.”
      So they are all foreigners already. No wonder they are confused! If Sarwar’s heart beats for Pakistan as loyally as it did for Scotland he’ll be off to India soon I expect!

    143. “Rod Mac says:
      All the Unionists will be persona non grata in the event of a YES Vote.”
      I can see why Rod Mac feels this way, I imagine he is like me and has steam coming out of his ears when watching BBC Scottyland and reading MSM. I may not have put in quite a way. But then try to remember the tories in Scotland before devolution,they were so against our parliament, but are happy to take the wage and seats in it, when if it was first past the post, they could have easily fitted all their MSPs into a small phonebox like their Westminster MP. They’ll be rushing for seats in an independent Scotland and try to put it all behind them. Really they are just pro politicos in the end, they couldn’t find a proper job anyway.

    144. Jiggsbro says:

      How sure are you of that, I can only hope,
       
      I’m certain we’ll win. I’m not sure when.

    145. Vronsky says:

      Oh, I can’t resist it.  Isn’t the Furious Cringe just morphing into the Curious Fringe?

    146. Juteman says:

      Children that are abused blame themselves.

    147. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Caesar!lha-
       
      I sense your frustration, and share it, but sort of a putsch in Pacific Quay, what else can be done?
       
      A good turn out on Calton Hill next month will certainly help, but in any event, we have to proceed on the assumption that we’ll get no help from the MSM – none at all – between now and next Sept. 

    148. handclapping says:

      @Vronsky
      Not at all, if anything we are the Curious Fringe. We are posting about the majority who are furious that they have now to find out and consider what to do instead of adhering to their learned predjudices. Its a nasty shock for them, especially when they are told that 72% of people in Scotland wanted a referendum and 50+% voted for parties that manifestly wanted one.
       
      But hey, thats democracy. Whit can ye dae?

    149. Jamie Arriere says:

      Followed a link on Newsnet and came across a report from the MOD which kind of blows away any idea that North Sea oil receipts will diminish in the coming years – they say it might even reach $500 a barrel by 2040!! They sure kept this quiet, eh!?
       
      http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/jun/04/rising-energy-prices-western-life-mod
       
      I think I’m morphing into the Curious Furious.

    150. Bill C says:

      @Andy-B
      I can’t agree that Tam Dalyell is a fool. He was one of the few Labour politicians to realise that trying to stem the nationalist tide of the seventies by setting a devolved government was only storing up trouble for the future. While idiots like George Roberson were declaring that “Devolution would kill nationalism stone dead”, Dalyell knew that the West Lothian Question would always be the achilles heel of devolution and so it has turned out. He also knew that devolution would a highway to independence with no exit route, again he is about to be proved right.  Dalyell knows that the game is up. His call for the abolishment of the Scottish Parliament is a last desperate cry to save the union.  Dalyell might be a Tory masquerading as an old school Labourite, but he is no fool.
       

    151. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

      @Balgaboy See Here: https://twitter.com/Sneekyboy/status/364835567147565057
       
      ‘I’m Feart’

    152. ianbrotherhood says:

      Interesting stuff via WoS Twitter – Ian Smart and Duncan Hothersall getting themselves agitated about ‘fifth columnists’ and demanding the right to check LFI members’ credentials etc.
       
      (Does Hothersall actually wear a red rose behind his ear?) 

    153. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Ianbrotherhood @ 8.58pm
       
      Left or right?

    154. ianbrotherhood says:

      @BTP-
       
      It seems to be lodged behind his left ear, but I sense some dastardly trap here so I’ll comment no further, except to say that it is entirely possible that he also has one behind his other lug – unless someone gets a full-frontal snap we may never know.

    155. ianbrotherhood says:

      @BTP-
       
      PS.
       
      When did you join WoS anyway?

    156. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Quoi?

      which calendar?

      and why do you want know?

    157. ianbrotherhood says:

      @BTP-
       
      It’s just a Hothersall/Twitter-related joke, no worries.
       
      Anyway – if anyone’s bored, have a look at Cochrane’s latest rant via
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/alancochrane/
       
      The Telegraph posted it at 9.27 last night. It’s had 123 comments.
       
      This post went up this morning, and has had 160.
       
      Hmmm… I wonder what that tells us?

    158. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Interesting stuff via WoS Twitter – Ian Smart and Duncan Hothersall getting themselves agitated about ‘fifth columnists’”

      I honestly don’t think they even appreciate the irony of calling people “fifth columnists” while whining piously about cybernats occasionally using the Q- and T-words.

      While we’re on Dunc, btw, I’m sure this is just coincidence:

      https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/364820467946778624

    159. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Don’t do Twitter

    160. ianbrotherhood says:

      @BTP –
       
      Me neither, but you can read it via the button up-top, and it’s good sometimes, trying to work out what the fuck conversations are about when you can only get snippets of them. It’s like a 3-D Star-Trek-style crossword that can never be completed.
      And as for Hothersall’s ‘Curry Wurst‘ (Ha! Good spot), if that’s typical of his diet then it’d explain a lot – GIGO.

    161. Embradon says:

      Our real enemies are among us – born without imagination

    162. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      So he parks a wurst behind his lug, to balance his red rose on the other?

    163. The Rough Bounds says:

      That clip took me right back to the sixties and it quite depressed me.
      We are moving forward in our struggle for independence but it really is slow. The Labour Party is like some kind of cancer destroying Scotland from the inside. The doctor knows that for the patient to get better it must be cut out.
      Trouble is that the patient is in denial.
      Labour: they are truly awful.

    164. Betsy says:

      That clip brought back the memory of a truly bizarre conversation I was had this misfortune to become involved in whilst stuck in a particularly hellish office many moons ago. The Scottish football team had been beaten by someone or other and my then boss was holding to court to her lapdog army about sitting down to watch the game with her family and how great it was because ‘we HATE Scotland’.
       
      At first I thought I’d picked it up wrong but as it went on and with a bit of probing from me it emerged that she didn’t hate the Scotland team for playing badly or being badly managed. She actually hated Scotland having a team. Even if they’d been the greatest team in footballing history she would have wanted them to lose because they were Scotland. 
       
      More alarming still were the responses from her fan club ‘oh yes my son hates Scotland as well’ and my favourite delivered with a roll of the eyes ‘my mother in law bought wee Ryan a Scotland strip, we took it back and swapped it for an England one’. 
       
      The striking thing about all this is that none of these women had ever expressed an interest in sport during the time I worked there. Their main topics of conversation were Slimming World and irritable bowel syndrome. Other than that you only ever saw them angry about fellow workers, dirt, Katie Price and paedos. Yet the whole notion of Scotland being represented in sport sent them into a foul mood.
       
       
      I don’t even think it was that Labour thing of hating everything Scottish in the hope of annoying the SNP as they had no interest in politics. The nearest we got to political chit chat was one of them arranging their face into a relieved toddler on the pot expression announcing ‘I would NEVER vote’ to all round nods.
       
      Is there any other country on earth where people actively want the national team in any sport to lose? 
       

    165. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Thanks Rev
       
      Light switched on with that snapshot of the Dunc

    166. Alex Taylor says:

      Rev
      Currywurst! Ooph, that looks nasty.
      But apt.

    167. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Ah, so that is what Twitter is all about.I clicked on the link to somebody from Glasgow who is lost in Aberdeen .
      Two minutes of my life I’ll never get back.
      Twitter is for a lot of Twats.

    168. Eddie says:

      I live in hope that the union loving eejits are so complacent come voting day and sit on their bahookies rather than vote, that we will not only win the referendum but that the ‘YES’ vote will be a resounding landslide.
      It’s no surprise to me that they found so many in Larkhall that refused to admit that they voted against Westminster.  None are so blind as those who will not see.
      I hope that screaming wifie is still on the go to see how much of a fool she was when independence raises this country of ours from the unionist poverty that has blighted it.

    169. Steven Duncan says:

      Taranaich says:
      6 August, 2013 at 5:49 pm

      It’s your typical racket setup. Convince the people you’re trying to hold down that they need you, that they couldn’t possibly live or function or survive without your assistance.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC_Xsd2ekkw
      ———————————
      Brilliant. 

    170. Vronsky says:

      “Twitter is for a lot of Twats”
       
      Might be why we (we outside) call it Twatter.

    171. Boorach says:

      Is the Hothersal not allowed china plates? Wonder if the cutlery is plastic too or are his meals always delivered in bite size chunks? 🙂

    172. Boorach says:

      All I ever get when I press that twitter button is a ‘sign in’ page not much good for non-twitterers!

    173. Vronsky says:

      Noted, Rev, perhaps mention?
       
      http://tmso.org.uk/

    174. Currywurst says:

      Marvellous. Now I’m somebody called “Duncan Hothersall”.
       
      Possibly an improvement on George Foulkes.

    175. Holebender says:

      …you might think that. I couldn’t possibly comment. 😉

    176. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Currywurst-
       
      You just proved you are ‘Duncan Hothersall’ – by getting the spelling right first time.
       
      And yes, anything is an improvement on George Foulkes, including, strangely enough, currywurst.

    177. Gordon Bain says:

      @ Betsy
       
      Were these Scottish people?

    178. Mosstrooper says:

      Whit? oil at 500 dollars a barrel! that’s it we’re ower wee tae hiv that much money. Mark ma words, we’ll aw be rich an whit will we dae then?

    179. Betsy says:

      @Gordon Bain,
      Yes.  That’s the terrifying thing. 

    180. Jamie Arriere says:

      @Betsy,
      Were they Tartan Army widows? What did you do with the bodies…..?  
      😉

    181. pmcrek says:

      Offtopic sorry, but does anyone know how to spell “witchhunt”?

    182. Doug Daniel says:

      Couple of amazing tweets by Labour SEC member Jamie Glackin tonight (who usually seems sort of all right for a unionist tweeter). They pretty much sum up what Scottish Labour is all about these days. He’s made a lot of illuminating tweets, but these are the two crackers.
       
      https://twitter.com/Jamie4Labour/status/364801587652210689
      https://twitter.com/Jamie4Labour/status/364812079586226177
       
      “If you’re (sic) Scottish Labour isn’t socialist enough and you want Indy, why didn’t you join the SSP? Or the Greens perhaps? #labour4indy”
       
      So there we have it – Labour For Indy folk aren’t welcome in the Scottish Labour party because they’re too socialist and they want independence. Wow. So the move away from socialism isn’t even a sore point these days – it’s simply a matter of fact.
       
      And in reply to this (“and its not all about power. It’s about what you represent as a party”) he says this: “@AGlesca No, it is all about power. Because nothing can be done in opposition.”
       
      So there we go – Scottish Labour don’t care about principles, they only care about power. Well, we all knew that anyway, but it’s nice to see it being spelled out in black and white by an actual member (and member of their SEC, no less). Not only that, but he’s basically saying that there is no point in having an opposition, which also goes a long way towards explaining the current state of the Labour party.

    183. Adrian B says:

      @ Doug Daniel,
       
      Jeez, Euan McColm has really set the ball rolling with his doctored pictures story. Slab then in paranoia meltdown and getting set upon by old Slab voters for not having their socialist principles. This could keep running but where will Slab be lashing out for the rest of this week? 

    184. Firestarter says:

      I’ve already got the popcorn in. This is hilarious. SLAB openly and publicly attacking their own members (whose only “crime” is to stand up for “Labour” values!) Ye couldnae make it up. Whats more, LfI have only ever presented themselves, as far as I can see, with dignity, honesty and integrity – qualities not altogether common on the BT front line. Are SLAB now seriously recommending that all of their members who support independence leave the party? With their numbers in freefall already, that might not be the most expeditious strategy! LOL 🙂
      Oh, and another thing …….. anyone else get the feeling that JL just might not be coming back? Seems like there are a few tumbleweeds blowing through …..

    185. Taranaich says:

      Thanks Steve! Here’s another one:
       
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlWNK0OomGc
       
      Once again, simple and applicable.

    186. Gordon Bain says:

      I’m almost certain JL won’t be back. Shame really as she was doing such a good job… For Yes.

    187. Macart says:

      @Firestarter
       
      Totally agree. Its bizarre and fascinating all at the same time. A slow motion train wreck you can’t tear your eyes from. A group of Labour members dare to tell their leadership ‘we disagree with your direction’ and all hell breaks loose. Talk of infiltrators and conspiracy, public attacks via the media, they’ve finally gone completely off their trolley. I mean they seriously want to take a step back and think about how this looks to your average punter or even an interested observer. McCarthyist witch hunt in process or full fledged melt down? Mr McColm may have inadvertently done the YES campaign a bit of good here by starting this rammy. Oh the irony. 🙂
       
      I’m on my second bag of chocolate raisins as we speak.

    188. CameronB says:

      I’d like to clarify and tighten up on what I said yesterday re.Tam Delyell, and his call to close Hollywood down. The point I made focused on TD’s lax use of language, when he failed to correct the inaccurate description of Britain as being a “country”. IMO, this was disingenuous of TD and that was the point I was trying to make.
       
      What I was overlooking, is that a lot of unionist believe that Scotland ceased to exist in 1707, As such, Britain is their country. Sad and delusional, i know, but thems are the facts for some. Kind of a difficult perception to challenge, as it is kind of fundamental to these people’s world view, IMO. Probably best left to stew in their own juices. 🙂
       
      Discussing the matter further with my brother, I’ve realised I was missing the big point. That being Tam’s conclusion that the devolution process has only one possible outcome, i.e. independence. This is probably the single most honest comment made by a unionist, that I have heard so far. I think Tam’s comment was also a back-handed recognition that BT is on course for a crushing defeat. Finally, I think I’ll need to wash my mind out with soapy water, as I also agree 100% with Tam’s conclusion that BT are running a “fraudulent” campaign in promising further devolution.
       
      Kind of sweat that TD is unhappy with what is being done to save the Union, as he is shear poison to me. Truly a wolf in sheep’s clothing,

    189. Al Ghaf says:

      Absolutely depressing stuff there, but one silver lining. The old guy in the bunnet at the end of the clip articulated, what I recall was a commonly held view; Generally favourable to Scottish Independence, but with Scots MPs making up such a minority in Westminster, voting SNP was a “wasted vote”. You used to hear that all the time
      .
      Since 2007, that perception has been completely de-bunked. Not just rhetorically, but crucially, I would argue, in people’s minds. The SNP has shown that change is possible.
      The unionist media, love to bang the drum of Salmond trying to exploit the battle of Bannockburn in timing the referendum. Sadly Scottish politics is presented through the Braveheart prism, both north and south of the border (BBC SCOTLAND using the phrase Tartan Tax to describe Scottish Variable Rate Income Tax FFS, and other regular cringe reinforcement)
       
      But bear in mind, the Yes camp won the popular vote in the last two outings on constitutional referenda, since then we have come a long way in terms of demonstrating to ordinary punters that Scotland can govern itself.

    190. Robert Kerr says:

      @CameronB.
      Indeed a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Dalyell’s main opponent  at the hustings was of course Billy Wolfe of the SNP.
      An excellent obituary here.
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/billy-wolfe-politician-who-played-a-crucial-role-in-the-transformation-of-the-scottish-national-party-1924380.html
      Read it and be inspired.
      Hail Caesar!

    191. Braco says:

      Al Ghaf,
      Very, very true. It must be kept right at the front of our minds when viewing this essential and informative but potentially deflating ‘historic’ material. Ie, even at the height of this type of Unionist disinformation inspired cringe back in the 70s, when asked in a referendum, the Scots electorate still voted YES! (and have done at every other given referendum opportunity)
       
      I always ask myself, during any dark hour of doubt I may have (rarer and rarer these days thankfully), have things structurally and politically changed in favour or against the Union during the intervening years since the last YES YES vote was delivered?’
       
      In my opinion, the answer to that is a no brainer, so all that remains is to work hard and trust the electorate. They have not let us down yet when asked to consider Scotland’s constitutional position via referendum.
       
      Vote YES in September 2014! (please)

    192. CameronB says:

      Robert Kerr
      Thanks for that. Although the name rings a bell from childhood, he was a little before my time. It does provide a timely reminder though, of just how young the SNP is, in relative terms. Although I am not a member, it is hard not to recognise and applaud the amazing success they have achieved in helping move Scotland closer to self-determination.
       
      P.S. IMO, professionalism is the key to most things, if you want to avoid getting yourself in to a guddle.

    193. CameronB says:

      P.P.S. Professionalism has killed the ‘beautiful game’ though. 🙁

    194. ianbrotherhood says:

      The Thames TV clip, when posted as a link in the previous thread (on Monday night) had 301 views. Rev used it to head this post yesterday morning.
       
      The number of views is now 2,561.

    195. CameronB says:

      ianbrotherhood
      But nobody clicks the bloomin’ links in the main text though, do they? 😉

    196. Adrian B says:

      What links?
      😉

    197. Morag says:

      I’d click them more regularly if they opened automatically in a separate tab.  It’s such a bore to remember to press “control” while clicking on a link!

    198. handclapping says:

      @CB
      They would if they could actually see them.

    199. ianbrotherhood says:

      …and it’s just gone up to 2,646 – another 85 views in the last 14 mins. Who’s watching it? If even a % of them are genuine Labour members passing it to one another, there could be something afoot – it’s a cert the LFI people will have circulated it by now.
       
      It’s worth pointing out that the clip was originally uploaded to YouTube by Thames  TV on May 10th 2011, so it had taken over two years to gather 301 views. And now this? Ain’t no coincidence.

    200. Adrian B says:

      And now for something completely different……..
       
      http://munguinsrepublic.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/just-for-laugh.html

    201. dmw42 says:

      For those who haven’t seen it, there’s a really good article by Ian Bell this motrning:
      Miliband shot himself in the foot with his reckless salvo
       
      If only all journos were as honest.
       

    202. CameronB says:

      Adrian B
      Cheers for the wee dash of tonic and thank you Munguin, if you are reading. I couldn’t figure out how to leave a comment on his blog, without it being anonymous. That just seems a little creepy to me.

      P.S. The difficulty in signing in to Munguin’s blog was purely my fault. I am not signed up with much social media.

    203. The Flamster says:

      David – both those videos were excellent.
       



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