The flexibility of figures
It’s a well-known fact, of course, that 87% of all statistics are made up. But as this site regularly observes, if you’re the Scottish opposition and media there’s no need to invent fake ones when you can twist the real ones to present an image completely at odds with the reality.
The Sunday Times today has some fine examples of the craft of massaging figures for the purposes of deception. It carries two separate scare stories on the NHS, both of them using figures which aren’t based on any sort of news, but on opposition spin on existing stats. One comes from the Tories, under a dramatic headline:
The banner is pulling a classic trick – the £685m figure is actually the total sum spent in a decade, not the single year that most people would assume (since there’s no good reason to measure spending in decades, so headlines usually don’t do it). But remarkably it’s just about the most honest thing in the paper’s health coverage today.
The article goes on to note:
“The private healthcare bill for Scottish taxpayers hit £78.5m in 2015-16, new figures show. That compares with £61m when the nationalists came to power.”
Which is an interesting way to present the comparison, because £61m in 2007 money adjusted for inflation is actually, um, £78m.
The other attack is based on a Labour press release.
This is another classic of spin. NHS Scotland has had the best A&E waiting-time stats of anywhere in the UK every month for almost two years now, so it’s difficult to put a negative slant on figures when they show over 93% of patients being treated within the target time, especially when the equivalent numbers in England and Wales are significantly worse (at 84% and 78% respectively).
But if you can’t make the percentages sound bad, then simply saying “91,788 people” makes it sound like a lot by presenting it without any context about the 1.7 million or so who WERE seen promptly. And it helps if you also leave out the context of the previous year, because Labour forgot to mention that they pulled the exact same trick almost word-for-word (this time in the Daily Record) 12 months ago:
Compared to the figures for 2015, the number of patients having to wait longer than the target times for treatment FELL in every category: by 420 (0.5%) for those waiting more than four hours, by 1099 (13%) for those waiting more than eight hours, and by 263 (20%) for those waiting more than 12 hours.
Cutting the numbers of patients suffering extended delays by 13% and 20% is pretty impressive progress in a single year, an impartial observer might think, and having 19 out of every 20 people treated within the shortest target isn’t too shabby either for a service under as much pressure as the NHS.
But on reading today’s Sunday Times you’d come away with the impression that healthcare in Scotland is collapsing, an idea reinforced by a column of near-hysterical doom-and-gloomery from Gillian Bowditch in the same edition.
(Exactly THREE women were diverted from the QEUH maternity unit, and they were sent to hospitals elsewhere in Glasgow, not left to give birth in the gutter.)
None of the pieces contain anything that’s technically untrue. But by juggling the stats with spin, selectivity and omission of context they tell a story that’s as good as a lie.
I’ll never weary saying it, Stu – you are the BEST.
link to parliamentlive.tv
All they are doing is pissing off the hard working Scottish NHS staff with their constant downing of their profession
I heard the 90,000 thing on Radio Scotland this morning. Second item of news, no context or analysis just a free advert for the Labour Party allowed to stand as a fact.
The most hilarious thing I have heard this week was that the BBC are setting up a fake news task force. I can only assume so that they can do more of it and faster to boot.
Disraeli was not wrong.
The English National NHS is wonderful.
Surely by now there are few left in Scotland who do not realise that the media is twisting the facts in order to control their thoughts and opinions.
Sounds daft eh! Control their thoughts? That though is exactly what they attempt to do, they lie, they spin and deceive all under instruction from their real masters. That will be the Tories and the billionaire owners of the media.
Don’t pay for their lies, don’t buy a newspaper and cancel your TV tax. Don’t allow yourself to be duped.
Don’t allow yourself to be manipulated. SAY NO MORE!
An article by John Boothman featured above. Wasn’t there someone at BBC Shortbread of same/similar name?
Not to mention that healthcare costs have ass always risen faster than general inflation. But you cant expect the London Times to report that mere detail
Not to mention that healthcare costs have as always risen faster than general inflation. But you can’t expect the London Times to report that mere detail
Yes, but as we all know, the headline is the story and we need to counter it. We need to expose the stories behind the Tories!
Perhaps a way forward for WOS and the fight for independence could be the setting up of a quarterly WOS Newsletter? What say folk?
BBC news has been reporting NHS meltdown all over the UK all morning
I think it’s the embarrasment of Scotlands NHS coping OK and in some instances incredibly well given Tory cuts
They can’t differentiate because the SNPs organisational skills would look good and even at the expense of patients they will never admit they could learn something from us stupid Scots and our terrible horrible SNP government
Who are Baad!
The problem with this kind of story, as Stu says, is not that it is fake but that it is rubbish – written to make me less informed about the world than I would be if I’d just ignored it. If I’m considering watching a film then I might choose to look at its score on imdb – the score is gameable but I know I am going to think twice before wasting my evening on a “5”. Its a shame we don’t have an similar mechanism for newspaper articles.
I would be interesting to see the polling results for the SNHS to see if a majority support independence and whether they also think they are being fairly treated by the press and TV.
Strange that the MSM think they can slag of the largest employer in Scotland and their dedicated and hard working staff and not have an effect on their sales and their credibility.
Most folk in Scotland know from their own experience that there is no crisis in the SNHS and are releasing that it is all politically motivated nonsense.
All bodes well for Indyref2.
We’re just going to have to accept that there will always be a concerted cooperative attack on anything and everything SNP or Scottish Independence by the Yoon political establishment and the Yoon controlled sympathetic MSM in the UK.
What needs to happen is to keep linking the Yoon political establishment with their controlled and sympathetic MSM at every chance and opportunity.
Keep hammering home the message that the UK MSM almost in its entirety cannot be trusted to publish real news without taint bias spin lies deceits and outright propaganda regarding Scottish Independence.
The online sites such as WOS Newsnet Bella etc are doing an excellent job on this topic yet much more needs to be done.
Blanket pamphlet campaigns around housing estates to the elderly who don’t go online and don’t get the advantages of alternate media.
The elderly in Scotland are the key to our Independence and it is they who are influenced the most by the BBC and the printed press.
We have already won the battle online the war has to be won on the doorstep.
I saw the maternity story when it headlined on Reporting Scotland and put it down to Scottish NHS just as bad as English NHS. Pa-the-tic!
If they want to talk long term figures, how about –
‘£30 billion: The cost of Labour’s toxic PFI legacy to Scotland.’ – link to heraldscotland.com
Dr Jim wrote:
“They can’t differentiate because the SNPs organisational skills would look good and even at the expense of patients they will never admit they could learn something from us stupid Scots and our terrible horrible SNP government.”
True, but would a very simple and effective step in the correct direction not be for the SNP administration simply to change the name of our health service to something along the lines of SHS (Scottish Health Service) or HSS (Health Service Scotland). I know this move alone would not stop the BUM from trying to distort reality but it would make attempts a helluva lot harder.
@Mike
Very good post Mike, it’s obvious that we can only win Indy2 “on the doorsteps”. We need to work together as a group and get the message out. We all have elderly relatives and friends, work on them, give it both barrels we can’t afford to be shy.
Why not rename/re-brand ours The SGHS?
(The Scottish Government Health Service)
[…] Wings Over Scotland The flexibility of figures It’s a well-known fact, of course, that 87% of all statistics are made up. But as […]
If memory serves there are not very many people who buy the Tory Times in Scotland.
That said any time they open their gob it is almost always to attack the SNP in Scotland who have done a fantastic job, in my view, over the period they have been in power. We all know neither the Blue Tories nor the Red Tories have had anything good ever to say about Scottish institutions like our N.H.S. The other lot just seem to harp on about Police Scotland being short of cash. Well perhaps if they paid their outstanding bill of £800,000 things might change there.
I think people in Scotland though are close to the tipping point now. With nothing but vile bile from the media about Scottish services I think folks are close to just saying feck it let’s just do this independence thing and get shot of those lying b******s darn surf.
Of course what might just push folks even further to YES next time round is news that die Fuhrerin May is going to say she’s happy to go for a HARD Brexit in a speech on Tuesday … allegedly. The fact this news has already been slipped out I think folks might want to keep one eye on the currency exchanges over the next couple of days. 😀
To any newbies lurking:
Try avoiding clicking on the direct link in the comment above by Ian – 15 January, 2017 at 1:45 pm – because clicking on direct links to BUM rags helps to bring in advertising revenue which in turn finances the utter crap they produce for shitting all over us and Scotland’s future well-being.
The media must protect the union and therefore protect unionist parties.
Truth without context is not journalism it is spin.
The health service comparison highlights why London fears an Independent Scotland. People do not compare their services to other nations normally. However they would notice change in a nation once part of their “great empire”. Spin only works when you have total control of the media, financial reports, policies etc
A) They need to continue drawing wealth from our nation.
B) They must prevent a reference point regarding a better society on their doorstep
C) They must avoid being caught out in the lie that Scotland was too poor, too small and too stupid to form a nation. If they are caught on that lie then the Brit Nats may question the Empire status they currently hold.
Which nation do I think would put the welfare of it’s citizens ahead of WMD / Aircraft Carriers / Astute Class nuclear submarines / A Trident replacement ……… Only Scotland
What nation would move away from division in society, away from a growing gap between the Rich and the Poor….Only Scotland
So remember that the spin implying “…Scotland health service is just as bad” it is just the same old, same old unionist grip being exerted by London and their “Uncle Tams” up here.
It’s fine if you use an ad-blocker – really p*sses them off.
Asking on this thread too. Any chance someone can post the link to the gathering yesterday again, the link someone put up earlier has awful sound, broken up all the way through Elaine talking and when moving along same thing is happening throughout…I’ll have a search masel’ but just in case anyone has one to hand that would be grand. ?
The business about private health care costs fails to consider the nature of those costs. I would suggest there’s a world of difference between NHS Scotland commissioning services privately where it is not practical to maintain an NHS service in Scotland than handing over NHS assets wholesale to the likes of Richard Branson.
I am due to undergo specialised, non-urgent, surgery in the near future. The number of surgeons working in the particular specialism is very limited and it would not really be possible for NHS Scotland to maintain this provision. Consequently they contract the work out.
They could contract to the NHS in England but instead the contract is with the private sector. The surgeon is the same chap in both cases. His waiting list for NHS patients from England is currently more than three times that for his private patients. By contracting with the private provider NHS Scotland is ensuring a better provision for its patients.
“None of the pieces contain anything that’s technically untrue.”
Well, the maternity unit in Glasgow is an older building on the same site as the QEUH, rather than part of the “new NHS flagship” – quibbling I know, but something the media often say when talking about older units on that site.
Old Saying.
A truth that’s told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.
I am hoping that those working in our great Scottish NHS , know that we appreciate them . Know that we don’t believe anything the BBBC broadcasts or newspapers print and know that the SNP will do their best while in government to protect them.
I certainly appreciate their efforts so a big thank you to them from me!
If i was in charge of the propaganda output designed to protect the Union i would be bloody shittn myself ,with all the effort and every single media outlet parroting the same pish on a daily basis this is the best they can do ,despite all their work the best they can hope for is to try and slow down the approaching Independence tsunami , yesterdays event supporting the ” YES ” movement must have given them a insight of things to come , a sold out venue and online interest approaching pre referendum figures and we haven’t really started yet once it starts in earnest these things have a habit of accelerating and will take on a life of their own it just takes a little spark and they bloody well know this .
More and more people realise the tosh these presstitutes write, with, consequently, less and less impact.
On independence, the names of these presstitutes will live evermore in infamy, in the same way as the signatories to the act of union are regarded.
No Truth and Reconciliation commission for these people, as far as I’m concerned.
Handandshrimp @1.16pm, re Fake News task force, I read something a lot more sinister into this move, I believe Labour are planning something similar – the emphasis appears to be on how much fake news you get on social media i.e. how unreliable internet sources are for getting the ‘truth’.
In other words, it will still be fine for the MSM to spout nonsense, and for the BBC to report any nonsense spouted by other media and politicians, and to not investigate whether it is rubbish or not, but it will give them the opportunity to slate anything presented on social media – it is propaganda telling people ‘you can only trust us! Don’t believe anything else you hear!’. That’s how I read it anyway.
Stu posed a question earlier on twitter that made my head bleed..
Imagine that one seat had gone the other way in 2007 and Labour had formed another Scottish Executive
We could go on for a while but suffice to say the SNHS would be ground to dust by now.. and Ian Gray as FM!! (passes oot)
I’m off creating a bit of mischief later so putting these up early.
WOS archive links now over on O/T.
re 1.45pm comment and link.
It’s from the Herald on Sunday, who supported a Yes vote. More importantly it provides useful information that needs to be made as widely known as possible.
Even if it was from a MSM rag that actually reported on something objectively, maybe using an ad blocker would prevent any commercial revenue being created. I don’t know if it would. Maybe someone can clarify for sure.
Stoker @1:53
Here’s the reply I got when suggesting a petition in October 2015.
“Dear Mr Parker,
Thank you for your proposed petition and I am sorry for the delay responding to you. I am a clerk to the Public Petitions Committee (PPC) and one of my roles is to assist petitioners to present their petitions and advise on the guidance and rules for petitioning Parliament.
Two documents that you may wish to read are the guidance for petitioners and the PPC’s determination of the proper form of petitions.
In the guidance, petitioners are asked to have attempted to resolve the issue they raise before raising a petition. This could be by contacting one of your MSPs or writing directly to the Scottish Government. You are very welcome to raise a petition on this issue, but please try to progress your idea through other relevant means first.
In terms of your petition, NHS Scotland is a broad term which covers all of the NHS in Scotland. However, in my experience most things (vans, hospitals, headed paper etc.) are branded with the regional boards’ logo (e.g. NHS Lanarkshire) or a national Special Health Board’s logo (e.g. Scottish Ambulance Service). Are you suggesting that all of the regional boards’ logos and names should be changed too? A good briefing on the structure of the NHS in Scotland can be found here: link to scottish.parliament.uk.
Secondly, it would be helpful if you could develop your argument a little more. As I understand it you argue that there is a confusion in the public’s mind about what areas of policy are devolved and that this could be resolved or mitigated if the NHS in Scotland had a distinctively different name. Do you think that the similarity of the name is the source of the confusion? Do you think that the public has a better idea of devolved responsibilities when organisations operating in similar ways north and south of the border have distinct names (e.g. Highways Agency/Transport Scotland; Environment Agency/Scottish Environment Protection Agency; Crown Prosecution Service/Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service)? Answering these sorts of questions will strengthen your arguments and improve your petition.
I will return the petition to you on the online system. This will allow you update the petition if you wish once you have taken more actions to progress your proposal and also to develop your arguments.
I would be more than happy to discuss.
Many thanks,”
“
@ K1 – link to IndependenceLive website. sidebar has video sections.
link to livestream.com
My good lady is involved daily in an initiative to measure the morale and engagement levels with SNHS staff all across Scotland. I can tell you that engagement levels are among the highest in any sphere of top class business. This in spite of a heavy workload.
Any company in the world would be glad of the commitment shown by our staff in the face of adversity and financial challenges. I salute them all.
Capella, well done that wummin!
The more crazy the britnat claims the more desperate they will appear to the majority of people in Scotland. I look forward to even crazier britnat claims.
Contrary
Yes, my gut reaction was that they were saying “how very dare you – misinformation is our preserve…feck off!”
Labour have over the last few years excelled in bare faced lies but that I think is more wild desperation than an actual plan.
Ian,
The link you supplied does not clarify the article is from the HoS. Also, see what Gregory Beekman says at 2:12 pm, re: adblocker. Regardless, i’d still urge others to avoid clicking direct links. Another reason for archiving links is to prevent any changes being made, at a later time, to any of the articles wording.
😉
________
gerry parker (2:44pm)
Thanks for that, Gerry! I’m just off on a mission 😉 but i’d like to carry this discussion on further because, obviously like you, i would really like to see this small but significant change made. I’ll give you a shout at some point, when i don’t know. Thanks again!
The Murdoch article’s target was more the NHS per as than the SNP government. The fact Scotland’s NHS is less privatised than England & Wales is a threat to the right-wing agenda. In other words the Scottish Government us collateral damage here – Nicola’s endorsement of The Sun notwithstanding.
The Murdoch article’s target was more the NHS per as than the SNP government. The fact Scotland’s NHS is less privatised than England & Wales is a threat to the right-wing agenda. In other words the Scottish Government us collateral damage here – Nicola’s endorsement of The Sun notwithstanding. Not sure how her column in the Record will play in furure, mind you.
Stoker.
You’re welcome.
I couldn’t progress it at the time due to a health problem.
Game now though.
Maybe first step to e mail the list MSP’s with the suggestion – just to rattle their cages?
@gerry parker
There should be no need for a petition and it’s a shame the SG haven’t realised this yet. There can be no doubt that a great many people do not understand that the NHS in Scotland is a totally separate body from the NHS in England.
There is also no doubt now too that the SNHS is better run than any other part of the UK, not enough people know this, even some who are SNHS staff.
I applaud your attempt to get a petition up and running on this subject, maybe we should all write to our MSP’s and get this going?
In fact, I think I will do that now.
Looking at three recent SNP top stories on Google.
Putin helped the SNP in the Referendum.
Te Daily Record doesn’t like the SNP Budget.
Scottish Labour ‘plans’ something not the SNP.
The Sunday Times and the Daily Record on the same level – the gutter.
Hi Stoker.
You typed at 3.07pm,
“Another reason for archiving links is to prevent any changes being made, at a later time, to any of the articles wording.”
That only works if, where somebody else is going to archive the article at ‘archive.is’, when they get the notification that the article has been already archived, they do not select to archive the version that they are seeing. If they do, the older version will be overwritten.
This is unlike the Internet Archive, which retains ‘snapshots’ of web pages, so you can see if there have been changes. I’ve just added it to the Internet Archive.
link to web.archive.org
Unfortunately, the paywall kicked in so there is only the first part of the article. However, unlike ‘archive.is’, all the comments at the time of archiving can be read.
As far as I’m aware, once a page is at the Internet Archive, their bots go out periodically to capture newer snapshots, which are added to the ‘library’ of archived pages.
SNHS staff are doing a great jobs.
So why aren’t their unions up in arms and taking the media to task about the way their members’ skill and dedication is being used for cheap propaganda?
The membership should be giving their union bosses a hard kick up the erse!
Unfortunately there are many, especially amongst the older folks, who are still believing this drivel.
I work with elderly people, and on a daily basis, have to hear how bad the Scottish Government is, and how the SNP are ruining our Country, from a substantial majority of them. I find it pretty depressing, and , because of my employment cannot say much about it.
the pnr
Fully agree there should be no need, the SG should be doing it.
However, it would not be without cost, and you know what the opposition would be saying about the re branding costs.
We need some low cost suggestions on how this could be done.
re branding at least would force the opposition to refer to the entity it was talking about, rather than just say the NHS is in crisis and have people think it was all the NHS’s
I’d just love to hear Kez and Rooth having to refer to The Scottish Health Service.
May also need it raised in SNP branches, a 2 pronged attack?
My question to the hard working and dedicated members of the SNHS at all levels is this:
Why are you allowing your tireless service to the communities of Scotland be misreported by the BBC and MSM to score political points?
Why do you let them lie about how good you are doing despite dealing with rising demand from an ageing population in these times of enforced austerity??
Most of these SNHS staff have no option but to join their respective Unions Doctors (BMA), Nurses (RCN) and Midwives (RCM) for insurance (limited liability) cover in the case of litigation.
I’d ask them all, the Doctors, Nurses, Midwives, Porters etc. etc. this:
“WHAT IS YOUR UNIONS POSITION ON THE MISREPRESENTATION OF YOUR PROFESSIONAL COMPETENCE FOR POLITICAL POINTS SCORING & WHAT DO THEY INTEND TO DO ABOUT IT?”
I suspect it is to raise easy contributions for hee-haw support and a foot on the ladder in the Union or Labour Party hierarchy.
Heartwarming to see Gillian Bowditch pick up Eleanor Bradford’s baton on misery and run with it. Maybe we can expect to see her gracing the airwaves soon.
jockanese wind talker.
If the Unions who represented the workers in NHS Scotland could be brought on board that would make it a 3 pronged attack.
I see The National’s website has new articles today – Sunday.
Last week the new regime at PQ under Donalda Wotsername announced the commencement of their new political program to be called ‘Timeline’ to be broadcast at 7.30pm on Thursdays on BBC2 9 (Against 2 Soap Operas and Ch4 News)with Glenn Campbell and Shireen Nanjani at the helm.
This half hour offering (we don’t know if it will run every week or just when Holyrood/WM are sitting) is what we are going to be getting to replace the cancelled 4 nights a week 30 minutes of the dud Scotland 20xx and the weekly 1 hour Big Debate on Radio Scotland.
What an insult – my opinion of the minimum that is required to inform the public adequately is as follows tempered by the necessity (some hope) that BBC Scotland will abandon its biased non-stop deluge of SNPbad excreta:-
a) A weekly Scottish version of QT broadscast at a reasonable time with a balanced panel and audience and chaired by a fair and unbiased individual.
b) Although FMQs has been lengthened with an additional few minutes of comment instead of rushing off to the Brillo prog. just how many people are around to watch it in the middle of a working day. It should therefore be repeated in the evening followed by a properly balanced panel- not just the usual unionist suspects.
c) Every month when WM is sitting WM’s Scottish Questions is broadcast on BBC in the afternoon with a repeat late at night on BBC2 having taken place immediately preceding that day’s PMQs. As for FMQs it should be repeated , not in the middle of the night, but at a reasonable time with a properly balanced panel to discuss it.
d) Sunday Politics should be extended to add cover of the previous week’s proceedings at both WM (as they apply to Scotland)and Holyrood again with a properly balanced panel of politicians and journalists.
That leaves us with our biased old pals GMS and the execrable Call KayE – about which something must be done – but it won’t happen.
While I think that the above is a minimum requirement I am not optimistic of all or any of it happening without a clean sweep at PQ and a cutting of the chains that connect it to our colonial masters in London.
Comments and criticism of the above are welcome.
Incidentally has Brillo got himself a new streamlined syrup?
link to caltonjock.com
Slighty O/T
I’ve just responded on the previous link to a suggestion made by Stoker that we try and produce some kind of ‘fact card’ to counteract these lies/myths and mistruths being spouted.
I think it would be great if we had a set of ‘fact cards’/ information sheets on each indy stall for people to take away, read and circulate at nearby pubs/cafes/ Dr’s surgeries.
How about a set of WBB ‘beermat-factcards’ with condensed versions of e.g. the above article.. statistics only ( Rev permitting) possibly with the Wings logo and website details on the reverse.
Or laminated, pocket-sized, fact-checkers to dispel the lies e.g. about the Queensferry Crossing; the SNHS A&E figures; the cost of PFI caused by Slab decisions; cuts to welfare being brought about by WM Tories;
People need the truth and we have to create trusted ways of getting around the BBC and the newspapers. Trump is doing it on Twitter; sadly Nicola’s tweets are rarely reported.
She can take care of the Daily Record and i think that will bear fruit.
I was musing on the startling statistic from yesterday among my age group, over-55 year old women, fewer than 25% support an Independent Scotland.
I was SHOCKED by that and been thinking about it since.
Is it as simple as the fact that many women over 55 are worried about their own future and how they will cope/ who will look after them if/when/ now that their partner will/has died.
I’m divorced, have lived alone and supported myself for many years. I had a good job, have a work pension and feel strong enough to look after myself just now. I’m not scared of the future.. just now BUT
How would I feel if I had been in a partnership with a caring, competent person who did everything, took care of bills etc and was now left alone to cope in old age/poor health, on low income. Who will I turn to in time of worry, who will support me, look after me. Maybe i could look after myself, but I’m not sure – it would be so much more reassuring to be back in my old familiar set up where everything worked and I felt safe.
Is that partly how these women feel about Scotland leaving the umbrella of the Union? Do they feel we would be too vulnerable on our own? Does it increase their feeling of vulnerability?
Is it economics or Is it just, as in my older sister’s case, that being a full time wife and mum, trying to hold down a job, cope with the comings and goings of grown-up kids, failing health and energy levels she has NO time or interest in politics and what’s happening in the world – she needs to switch off in her spare time and just goes with the flow.
How do we crack this group – ironically many of whom are suffering the most as WASPI women; sandwich generation carers-babysitters of their own grandchildren and parents simultaneously; spinsters and widowed lonely vulnerable people with failing health?
Maybe we can get the young to convert their grannies as was suggested but we have to do something!
Thanks Capella…unfortunately that’s the very link that is ‘playing up’ really not sure if it’s ‘my end’ where the problem exists or whether others are experiencing the same ‘technical’ difficulties regarding the sound on that link?
How about Car Stickers with a message supporting Scotland’s NHS.
I can’t think of a suitably short hard hitting wording right now but I’m sure fellow Wingers can come up with something appropriate.
The “bbc misreporting Scotland” billboard campaign starts tomorrow.
John Boothman – Sunday Times – v. Interesting.
Surely not PQ’s late unlamented Head of News.
@ K1 – the sound is fine on my PC. Occasionally, Elaine has a poor Mic but swaps it quickly. In one section there is an echo in the background when Robin MacAlpine is speaking. But these are minor glitches which are soon corrected.
No idea why your sound is poor, sorry. In fact, I was impressed by how much IndependenceLive has progressed since the early days of a hand-held iPad! Well done everyone who contributed.
Maybe you can try changing the balance in your speaker system?
I’ve come around to the belief that, until we get independence, we shouldn’t have separate Scottish news programmes such as a ‘Scottish Six’ in place of the ones broadcast from London.
Why? Because the ‘national’ news from London gives us the perspective which BBC Scotland seems to wish to omit. (I can’t vouch for STV news, as I don’t often watch it.) While BBC Scotland recycles all the ‘SNPbad’ propaganda from the press and the unionist parties, the BBC in London informs Scots how bad things are in England – even sometimes, innocently, mentioning that services are better in Scotland. Were we only to have BBC Scotland news, the electorate would be fully exposed to the fake news.
@Thepnr says: 15 January, 2017 at 1:50 pm:
” … We all have elderly relatives and friends, work on them, give it both barrels we can’t afford to be shy.”
Well, actually, Thepnr, we do not all have elderly relatives but I may still have a few elderly friends.
Thing is many Wingers are now the elders of their remaining family.
Not only that but some of us were involved in what you younger guys consider the NEW technology when we were teenagers way back when hardly anyone knew what electronics were never mind what computers were.
This daft idea that all elderly people are idiotic luddite ignoramuses is not only very insulting but really quite wrong. The main reason there are larger proportions of older people who are Unionists is for quite a different and very logical reason.
These people are what remains of the once almost wall to wall unionist party supporters and voters. If you paused to think you would see the logic in that.
If the SNP membership in, say, 1955 was miniscule but is now the largest supported party in Scotland then it is logical that the other parties have not been growing in membership while the SNP have. Thus the proportion of younger members in the SNP will have been drawn from an ever increasing younger group of people.
Thus these forming the present larger support for the rapidly decreasing Union are not doing so because they are older but because they are all that remains of the former loyal unionist support with an ever decreasing proportion drawn from the younger generations.
When considering statistics it is all too easy to put carts before horses and come up with daft results because you do not stand back and look at the bigger picture.
This is the message behind the old saying about not seeing the wood for the trees. By standing up too close to the individual trees you cannot see the extent of the whole woodland area, (the wood).
Kudos once again to Rev. Stu and other accurate analysers of ‘our’ news.
‘All’ we need now are the methods to feed these facts to the rest of the populace!
On a daily basis these titles and their chain tuggers attack the Scottish government. Collateral damage? Trust in our public institutions. How many folk simply don’t seek aid from the SNHS, police, child services, education boards basically because they’ve been led to believe they are worthless and failing institutions? How much harm have these political fuckwits and their meeja chums visited on the public by this point?
That’s politics though, right? Who cares if some folk don’t get help when they need it? Who cares if some kids fall through the cracks? Crimes unreported? A mere bagatelle. Omelettes and eggs. The main thing is damage your opposition and make sure the right folk get the right result.
Politics as it is practised UK style and doesn’t it make you sick to your stomach.
Private Healthcare in America makes up 25% of the American economy. 25%.
For that they get what has been measured as one of the worst services and most expensive. It is also the number one cause of homelessness and the number 2 cause of bankruptcy.
Prior to seeing a medical professional for whatever ills them, they see an insurance broker and it is the insurance broker who will decide what medical department / route they are directed to. This admin cost is about 20% of their care costs.
In the NHS admin costs are some of the lowest in the world – below 5%
In America personal taxation rates are smaller than here. In the UK at the base rate of tax, about 1/2 of our tax pays for the NHS. And this is a point worth noting, because as the tories – red and blue – look to ‘first break and then steal’ our NHS and hand it over on a plate to those corporations greasing their palms, no one, no one is offering you a 50% tax cut… so your going to keep paying for it, just not get it.
And in fairness to the American Healthcare system, it was built entirely out of private money.
Here, in all honesty, they can’t really compete. Much, much better if they can get the use of existing hospitals, surgeries, fully trained up doctors and nurses that they didn’t have to contribute to the cost of training.
Then you look at Private Health Insurance…. oh what a comfort blanket, but remember, this is a private contract. The supplier can rip it up at any time and your only course of conduct then is to pay for a lawyer to fight it.
An American woman paid all her days for her health care, in her 50’s she was diagnosed with breast cancer – the first time she’d had any real health problems. Her insurance company informed her that they had discovered she suffered from a minor yeast infection in her 20’s and had not declared it on her form. Contract null and void.
This is the reason they are so aggressive about trawling for personal details, and why they are so valuable.
So you have politicians in WM and HoL’s who legally have to declare their financial interests with these private healthcare companies but then get to keep working to betray the people and the NHS with no legal come back of a ‘conflict of interest’ for the voters.
Not sure if the Tess talk is still available on you tube of Prof Gillian Richmond talking about this (pretty sure I’ve got the name right, but don’t hold me to it, as this is from memory). Another worth viewing on you tube was ‘Lucy Reynolds talks to Jill Mountford’.
One last thought, Mr Murdoch bought share in Genie Energy with its the oil prospects in Syria, how likely is it that he has financial interest in other lucrative markets. I’d suggest a 25% stake of a countries economy is lucrative.
Meg merrilees says:
Thinking laterally, maybe we are missing a trick.
The lies are all one sided.
Instead to tackling it in a partisan way i.e. Us versus them, they could be debunked in a neutral way. And in a similar style, don’t target Unionists, target the media inc broadcast.
Their output is blatant inaccurate propaganda. But, how is the uninformed person going to know the rebuttal isn’t propaganda from the YES side?
Basically, don’t brand the debunking as coming from the YES side, or the lies coming from the NO side. Simply brand it as ‘the true picture’, which it is.
Perhaps language like … “Scots are rightly proud of their Scottish Health Service.” … then some facts and challenges to lies which newspapers have carried stating date published.
I reckon soft NOs are more likely to be receptive to non partisan statements of fact, rather that what looks like counter propaganda.
Fancy reading something entertaining and informative unspoiled by the moronic intervention of Sententious Dave?
Scots and new lands: link to wp.me
La La Land: link to wp.me
@Stoker says: 15 January, 2017 at 1:53 pm:
“Why not rename/re-brand ours The SGHS?
(The Scottish Government Health Service)”
Maybe that will be because it is NOT the Scottish Government’s Health Service but belongs to the sovereign people of Scotland who may, in a future independent Scotland, elect a quite different government or even quite different form of government.
May I point out the present daft events in the US of America?
They have just started to abolish the US of A, so called, “Abamacare”, system that protects the care of the poorest section of their citizens.
Note:- Abamacare is an informal term for a federal law intended to improve access to health insurance for US citizens. The official name of the law is, “The Affordable Care Act or more fully, The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.
I believe the abolition owes far, far more to the presently elected USA administration’s political haltered of the former presidents politics than it does to the service being a bad thing.
Rather like the UK situation that feels compelled to brand anything done by the SNP as BAAAD. That, though, is the present state of political warfare of the modern World
Good points Mr Perrers at 4.40pm, from a septuagenarian.
Robert@4.40pm
Good points.
Many of the really elderly people in Scotland grew up/served during/after WWll. Conservative and Liberal values were much more to the fore. These generations know that ‘the country’ pulled together for the good of all; ‘our country’ defeated the Nazis and the Fascists; the UK or GB was a better functioning whole then and brought benefits to all parts of the land especially when the infant NHS was established.
So through the late 40’s, 50’s and 60’s GB was a productive, growing place, recovering from the war and hopefully bringing better living standards- however slowly- to all.
Many among these generations, (thankfully not all) still have the ‘Old Labour’ values – into which I was born-and think fondly of the ‘good times’ when they were younger; the UK ‘worked’ for them so why reject it now?
The youth of today have it so much easier, don’t know their born etc.. and by some comparisons, probably do have an easier time of things.
I suppose it’s easy to say that it all started to go well off the rails when Thatcher was in charge and she crushed the miners/ shipbuilders and manufacturing industries. I remember having to leave Scotland in the late 70’s and go to London as there were no prospects here.
For my generation onwards, the UK has not been good for Scotland, one reason for the rise of the SNP. ( I still have the SNP badge which I proudly displayed on my school blazer).
I read somewhere that prior to 1940’s the WM gov respected Scotland as a separate country and acknowledged that fact ; it is only the advent of Rationing that really created and re-inforced the concept of Scotland as ‘A Region’. Unfortunately that has stuck since then and we now have the ridiculous situation of WM government that tramples all-bar-Tories underfoot.
Thepnr is right to say that we have to tackle our elderly relatives who are NO voters. The future is not theirs. We have a duty to provide for them and they have to trust that we will not let them down BUT the future is not theirs or mine it is bigger than all of us, the future is Scotland’s and we cannot let down the generations yet to come.
Bruce and Wallace didn’t.
Profile of Arlene Foster coming up on BBC R4 at 17.40
Actually I know it’s a bit out there but
Sovereign Health…Has a bit of a ring to it.
Especially if we will be having Sovereign wealth discussed in the near future.
NHS costs £100Billion in England. £12Billion in Scotland (paid by Scottish taxpayers – Block Grant)
Total taxes raised in Scotland £54Billion.
Total taxes raised in the UK £515Billion + £100Billion borrowed – £615Billion.
NHS costs average 1/5 – 20%
The Tories are cutting NHS £20Billion over five years till 2020. £4Billion a year.
Even you are at it… It’s not 87%. In fact, it’s 82.3% of statistics are made up!
@gerry parker says: 15 January, 2017 at 2:44 pm:
“Here’s the reply I got when suggesting a petition in October 2015.”
That was a great and informative post, Gerry. Thank you for that.
It raises something I’ve posted about in relation to the Scottish Health services on several occasions.
That is the way the media treats most Health Service
stories in Scotland. Whether they be good or bad reports.
For example the media will make a story about a fall in the number of practitioners of any health related service seem to be the fault of the SNP Scottish Government. The truth, of course, is that the neither the SG or the SNP employ Health Care Workers of any description.
The employers of all Heath Care Workers, (with a very small few exceptions), is by the various areas Health Boards and these Health Boards are, in the main, dominated by the local councillors of the area. They also tend to have politically motivated health care professionals involved.
Labour dominates the local authority scene throughout Scotland and are rarely blamed for any perceived failings by the media.
How many times do we read a headline like, “Local Maternity Unit to Close, what are the Scottish Government going to do about it?”
This, of course goes far deeper than just SNHS matters as we saw with the latest COSLA stand against the freeze on Council Tax. My thoughts on the matter are that a great many of the weaknesses in Scottish Government can be put to rights by the next round of local council elections if the SNP can gain control of many more local authority councils.
OOPs my post @ 5.36 was ment to be a reply to
Robert Peffers @ 4.56
@HandandShrimp says: 15 January, 2017 at 3:05 pm:
” … Labour have over the last few years excelled in bare faced lies but that I think is more wild desperation than an actual plan.”
You think so, HandandShrimp? So just what do you call, “The Bain Principle”?
Here is a link to a bit about it by Ken Bell :-
link to kenbell.info
Herald ….
Theresa May will make it clear to Nicola Sturgeon tomorrow that she expects the First Minister to “respect the result” of the Brexit vote and not divide the country by trying to secure a special deal for Scotland.
link to archive.is
Well, if she does say this week that there will be no special deals then that will be stage two of the Scottish Government plan completed.
Seems sudden that in just a few days time we may know that May’s plan is ‘hard’ and will seek no special deals for Scotland.
Truth is it will be parcelled up as “we will tell the EU we want access to everything but also will curb migration, and IF you don’t agree to that we will go ‘hard'”.
And that IF will mean there is nothing certain until the EU make their rejection official.
It does mean that very very soon we will know that IndyRef2 is inevitable.
Perhaps that is part of May’s plan, she may believe an early IndyRef2 gives her the best chance of getting another NO. The SG will move when it best suits them, no earlier.
@Free Scotland says: 15 January, 2017 at 3:28 pm:
“The Sunday Times and the Daily Record on the same level – the gutter.”
Nah! Baith thae rags ir weel doon the sheugh an ben the the brander lang syne.
Owersettin intil the Inglis (No! Both disgusting news paper outlets are well down the gutter and through the siever’s drain long since).
galamcennalath
The Herald, the UK Government mouthpiece. It stills strikes me as extraordinary that Scotland must be the only country in the world where all the press and TV work for another Government and represents the interests of another country.
@gus1940 says: 15 January, 2017 at 4:03 pm:
“How about Car Stickers with a message supporting Scotland’s NHS.
I can’t think of a suitably short hard hitting wording right now but I’m sure fellow Wingers can come up with something appropri”
Old favoutite, gus1940 :-
Somewhat off topic.
We’re never going to be able to compete with the mainstream media in print on or air – and these are the sources of (mis)information for many people. They don’t access alternative media but they do walk regularly down the High Street and (hopefully) many will pass by the posters and mobile ads produced by the pro-Indy Inform Scotland group over the next couple of weeks (see IndyRef2 site, 10th Jan, for more info).
I’d like to propose a simpler and more cost effective solution to Yes groups around the country for future use. Produce simple stands/advertising boards of the type used to sell newspapers and find locations to display alternative/corrective headlines whenever the mainstream media produce misleading info (sorry, you’ll be busy, and busier than ever when Indyref2 kicks off – but, hey, that’s what we’re here for).
Hinged sheets of roughly 3×2 foot plywood on legs would do the job, though might have to be replaced regularly if vandalised. Posters would obviously be more striking if printed on a printer than hand written but low cost printers for home use are relatively common nowadays, though a number of sheets of A4 would be needed to make large posters. Corrective posters could also be displayed in windows.
The stands could also direct media savvy individuals to sites they may not have previously viewed (Wings isn’t yet the favourite site across the British Isles).
In the meantime prepare to tweet and facebook info about the Inform Scotland campaign after the BBC Misreporting Scotland campaign kicks off on the 16th.
The Times is a rag; it had a chance to become Scotland’s quality newspaper, with the Herald faffing about trying, I think, to reunite its Sunday and daily editions, but not having the guts to go fullblown balanced and impartial. In my opinion the Scotsman is the best of the three these days, though they should scrap the online forum or sell it to a university for psycholigical subject research.
The Times seems to be beaten by the Record of all papers which does make an attempt to be balanced. In fact it wouldn’t surprise me to see the Record cautiously endorse Independence when Indy Ref 2 becomes totally inevitable,, and Indy with it, as seems likely to happen in the next few weeks.
It would be funny to see the Record pip the Sun, with theguy whose name I forget (something like Trump) who owns the Sun and Times dithering around last time and meanwhile letting his Times run to rack and ruin.
And that’s all I have to say about that.
@gus1940 says: 15 January, 2017 at 4:03 pm:
“How about Car Stickers with a message supporting Scotland’s NHS.
I can’t think of a suitably short hard hitting wording right now but I’m sure fellow Wingers can come up with something appropri”
An old favourite, gus1940 :-
I heard the imperial state Scottish inguinal’s tonight talking about thousands of patients in Glasgow who had to wait more than 4 hours,
By the By hospitals use a very professional triage system, so the most urgent get seen first. Usually the longest waiting would have been better phoning NHS 24, or waiting till they could see their doctor, but not always.
Funny they asked Anas Sarwar, now mostly its like a failure telling the winner what he is doing wrong. Honestly who listens to this idiot.
One question worries me, why did he hate Donald Dewar with such passion?
So thankful the Rev yet again tells us the reason why figures not statistics.
Seriously we need to think how we thank him, and those like him after we obtain our country back.
The First Minister respects the vote of Scotland re brexit. It’s May and her cronies including Davidson who don’t beleve Scotland is a country tha are the enemies of democracy. Remember their lie Vote Yes and you will be thrown out of the EU.
This isn’t news anymore, it’s simply the truth.
Whilst it would be naïve to suggest that the health and social care budget (along with other public services budgets) is not also under enormous pressure in Scotland, the differences in approach by WM and SG reflect their differing political choices, and attitude to the role and function of the state in providing social protection.
‘…the government has failed to reassure doctors that it is dealing with the crisis in emergency care in England…Mark Porter , The BMA’s chair of council, said:
The government has failed utterly to get to grips with the scale of the problem , and we heard nothing in the health’s secretary statement which patients and NHS staff will take comfort from….
Figures from the Royal College of Emergency Medicine showed that average performance on the four hour target was 77%, but some trusts struggled at 50-60%, which the college said would leave to serious safety issues‘
BMJ 2017 ;356;j153
‘ Ministers have failed to show evidence that plans to introduce seven day access to GPs (in NHS England) are cost effective, the government’s national spending watchdog has warned…
Meg Hiller , the chair of the Public Accounts Committee said the government was trying to ‘shoehorn’ in seven day access without a clear idea of the additional costs or benefits it will bring. And this on top of problems for patients in accessing their GP even during a standard working week..
…Chaand Nagpaul , the BMA GP committee chair said; ’This is further evidence that the government’s plans for extending patient access are in complete disarray. To proceed without any sort of evaluation could lead to much needed investment being spent on measures which don’t adequately meet patient’s needs’
BMJ 2017;356;j164
‘Doctors face a struggle every day and everywhere in England: the fight to secure social care for patients well enough to leave hospital.
Even officially it worsens month by month, increasing harm to patients and financial strain on the NHS, at a time when it’s least needed.
The latest figures, aiming to size up the problem, broke records in October. Patients spent 200,000 days in beds they did not need that month, a rise of 25 per cent on the same month in 2015.
Known as ‘delayed transfers of care’, the NAO (National Audit Office) estimated that, in the case of older patients in England, the unnecessary days in hospital cost more than £800m last year.
As bad as it is, this official tally of costly and unnecessary hospital stays undercounts the problem ‘significantly’, the NAO admits in a study this year, by a factor of almost three.
And as usual, the language of audit does nothing to capture the human cost suffered by patients, their families and witnessed on wards daily by doctors, nurses and other professionals…
These so-called STPs (sustainability and transformation plans) aim to chart a path to more seamless health and social care services, while cutting some £26bn from their budgets by 2021.
But analysis by the BMA has found fresh evidence of deep financial problems in social care across large swathes of England. In some areas, financial deficits almost match those facing the NHS.
For instance, Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent predicts a £256m shortfall in social care, according to the latest figures from its STP. That’s less than the £286m black hole in its NHS services, but not by much.
The eight London authorities in the north-east London STP, which stretches from Barking and Dagenham to Hackney, face a shortfall in social care of £238m and a larger £578m in the NHS.
In Hampshire and the Isle of Wight, social care faces a financial black hole of £350m by the end of the decade, a third of the £1bn total defect, which includes the health service shortage.
As might be expected, hospitals in STPs with big social care deficits include those that most struggle to find social care for patients.
Almost half the time patients were stuck in hospitals in Staffordshire was owing to struggles to secure social care, according to the latest NHS England figures, collected from trusts in October’
link to bma.org.uk
As expected …
“The pound fell as much as 1.6 percent to $1.1986 in Auckland on Monday”
link to bloomberg.com
And, the low in Oct was that trading glitch rather than true market response.
@ Robert Peffers re SNHS … We dont Plaster over LIES.
am aff tae xray
@yesindyref2 6:24pm
I remember reading [November?] in the National an article by former editor Richard Walker where he hinted the National might be joined in its pro-indy stance by another daily.
Hamish100 says:
Also, the FM has respected the 2014 NO vote by offering compromises now.
It is May (and Cameron before her) who has disrespected that vote. In 2014 NO won by promises of DevoSuperFederalMax, a partnership of equals, AND continued EU membership. The Tories have reneged on everything.
The day of reckoning approaches!
@Robert Peffers says:
15 January, 2017 at 6:25 pm
Arrrgh!
That, “?”, in the post left here as a heart shaped symbol from the Times New Roman font set.
An old favourite, gus1940 :-
I ? Our Scottish NHS.
Looks like this blog doesn’t reproduce
Times New Roman and changed it to a question mark.
Express …
THERESA May has been urged to call Nicola Sturgeon’s bluff and hold a second independence referendum for Scotland – as experts currently predict an easy ‘No’ victory.
They really can talk some pish. There can’t be IndyRef2 until it is clear what form Brexit will actually take!
link to archive.is
Gillian Bowditch is a fabulous fraudster of the Times but it must be very disorientating for her readers if they do end up in a Scots hospital. “But one was expecting to find ones elderly relative on a filthy trolley next to the bins..”
OT After watching the Yes Convention and seeing Greens and others distancing themselves from the SNP, when it wasn’t necessary, I did wonder if they’d considered who in the world would recognise them if the SNP Government lost real majority or fell?
The UK Government, the EU Governments, the EU, the rest of the world wouldn’t deal with a panel of groups. They all need a Government to deal with.
The point made about the support for Ind among women over 55 had fallen, possibly because of pension concerns and Brexit, again made me wonder who did they think would effectively stand up for them as a Government? Labour? Labour has caved in to the Tories on just about all real issues and they are not going to be Government at Westminster, and will be ineffectual in Holyrood facing a Tory Government in Westminster.
The Tories will be looking after the South East of England, post Brexit.
I do get that feeling again that Scots can’t hold on to their advantages, and posturing groups are going to hasten the loss.
On the one UKOK hand, neo fascist Heil/Express shrieking Russian spooks tried to break up Britain 2014 ref, on t’other FT etc says its a UK spook what tried to bring down neo fascist Trump, golden showers with hookers, and Putin asking him to screw up NATO.
At least UKOK hackdom understands where they’re all a laughing stock.
Meanwhile, old Donalda had a newsroom, ee-eye, ee-eye-oh
And with that newsroom old Donalda says, SNP bad
link to bbc.co.uk
Is Scotland’s NHS knackered or is it working Donaldo!
Bowditch o the meatalist Times, Donaldo of the BBC Scotland creep show? Cant tell can you:D
The SNP are bad and-
“His comments came after a week in which a Glasgow maternity hospital was unable to admit expectant mothers due to overcrowding.
NHS Greater and Glasgow and Clyde apologised, blaming a higher than normal number of admissions at the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital for the problem. The woman were admitted to other hospitals.
In the same week the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon confirmed that plans for a network of trauma centres had been delayed.”
Maybe this is what all new and exciting Donaldo meant by winning back trust. We can trust her to been an even bigger UKOK con artist/propaganda merchant than Murdoch’s mob of tory gits.
@Brian Powell 7:27pm
I think it was a good start for Yes 2 at least from what I’ve read and heard online. Still a long way to go. One thing for sure: the britnat media will play-up any supposed internal splits – probably try to instigate them as well. Better we’re all talking together, even if we don’t agree on everything.
I’d imagine that Tom Gordon, Political Editor of the Herald favours the multiverse theory.
Every time he steps into the swirling Dark Matter that is BBC Pacific Quay,he passes through the portal into an alternative universe where Labour has 56 Scottish MPs in Westminster, has formed the Administration at Holyrood with 45% of the vote, and the SNP is a marginalised third placed also ran, with only one MP.
It can be the only explanation for the Upside Down agenda of BBC Scotland’s Politics and Current Affairs Department.
Labour, a poor third, on 15% (well Wee Rowley exhorted us all to heed ‘poll after poll’), gets centre stage on Brewer’s bolt on to Andra Neil’s Sunday Politics London Bubble.
Rowley would have us all wait to hear what Big T May and Jez Corbyn ‘will say” in their speeches this week, rather than answer fairly straight forward questions on Brexit, if he supported NS’ alternative proposals for Scotland to remain in the EU Single Market, and if he agrees with Dugdale that Labour Members should be able to vote for Independence. No answers from the wee man.
His non answer answer was that we should wait and see because it’s above his pay grade, and perhaps his intellectual capacity, to have an opinion on anything affecting the Scottish people. This car crash of an interview confirmed what I already knew; if this man is the cream of the Labour crop Up Here, it is of no surprise that they will slip below even the Lib Dems in Scotland within months.
But he rashly blurted out that the Scottish Labour Conference in February will ban any Labour member from voting YES in any future Indyref. Aye, right.
He clearly doesn’t have a clue about the Branch Office’s stance on Brexit, on a second Indyref, or what NS’ EU /Brexit proposals are.
DR Peter Bennie, Chair of BMA Scotland was interviewed on tape.
‘System failure’ but not yet. SHS working with the Scottish Government, to find solutions to the perennial issues like A&E pressures, recruitment of GPs and Consultants, and joined up care and discharge of patients into the community.
Ivan McKee, SNP and LisTory Boy Miles Briggs (who gets Briggser every time he appears on this show) discuss ‘system failure’, the only message Brewer got from his talk with Dr Bennie.
Is he under orders to peddle the lie that the Scottish Health Service is in as bad a state as the English and Welsh Services? Do you think?
Briggs, without a hint of embarrassment or guilt mouthed the usual Tory guff, while McKee pointed out that Dr Bennie mentioned in the taped piece that the BMA and SHS were working with the Holyrood Administration, that the SNP were injecting an additional £500 million into the HS,and working with the HS on staffing, and so on.
Oh, and there was a wee item on too many bookies on our High Streets.LA’s can now block licences.
Then Tom Gordon, looking as pissed off as Ivan McKee was earlier during Brewer’s post truth SHS ‘system failure’ SNP BAD item, and somebody called Katrine Bussey, who is apparently the Political Editor of the Press Association Scotland (whit?), discussing Labour again, then the SHS ,now established because Gordon Brewer keeps repeating it out loud, and the system failure’.
Money for old jam , Tom.
Welcome back to the future, my man.
Donalda is clearly a new broom, isn’t she?
They don’t even hide it any more, Stu.
What the what! Herald says
“SCOTTISH Labour deputy leader Alex Rowley has said his party will put forward a federal alternative to the “polar opposites” of the SNP and the Tories.
In the wake of the Brexit vote Mr Rowley said people did not want another independence referendum but want “the best deal possible for Scotland within the UK”.
Details of a UK-wide constitutional convention are to be set out by Jeremy Corbyn on a trip to Scotland later this week”
BBC Scotland says,
link to bbc.co.uk
JC rejects new act of UKOK union jibber jabber. Wish he’d make his mind up on anything at all.
Stoker @ 1.46
Just catching up and got as far as your post. On 10/1/17 I emailed Shona Robison about this and suggested the very same SHS or HSS.
No reply as yet but I reckon she’s probably been a bit busy this past week!
Winger Inspired post on Inform Scotland
Attention all Photoshoppers, media creatives, and all round prankers! Inform Scotland has been inspired by an inventive Winger to announce a new competition. link to informscotland.com
In addition to our photo competition and video competition, we are very excited to launch a new competition for the best ‘Phantom BBC Mis-Reporting” advert on the internet.
There are no rules, it’s open to your own artistic expression, but the idea is that the image needs to be extremely creative and striking in order to really capture the viewer’s imagination. This will help us maximize the number of hits to the website and therefore bring more attention to our campaign.
Think out of the box – you could have a BBC Mis-Reporting banner hanging off the Eiffel Tower, or on a ferry to the Isles, or trailing behind a jumbo jet ….
Or on a flag on the moon!!!
There are no limits to the possibilities – let your imagination guide you!
Thanks so much to the Winger who had this idea and sent us the excellent piece of art shown above. Hopefully this will get your creative juices flowing and you will be inundating us with even more extravagant images!
Please bear in mind that any stock image you might choose to use as a starting point must be copyright free. We suggest Pixabay.
Enter the competition by contacting us on our Facebook page or our contact page and sending a link to your phantom image hosted online. If you have used a copyright free stock image to create your phantom image, please also supply a link to the original image so we can give credit to the original image author.
Good luck!!
heedtracker says:
That will be Vow2 in the making?
They’ve had their chances to deliver DevoSuperFingHomeFederalMax.
A federal UK is virtually impossible.
The English aren’t interested.
The Tories will be even less interested.
Labour is in no position to do anything.
And … a Brexited UK is still a Brexited UK.
If I was Theresa May, I’d be getting a baaaad felling about Brexit.
It’s always the way with reports, judgements, political events etc, that the diplomats and civil servants very often know the gist of things before they happen, and even that cannot be known, say a vote result or something, then they can have contingencies in place for either result. That’s their job, and when strings are pulled, these people are the ones who decide which strings.
With Brexit, after Farage and his vitriolic comments being met with contempt, with Theresa May speaking after 1:00am at a dinner, and shunned at another EU gathering, then the Ambassador Ivan Rogers quitting, and the name escapes me, but there was another UK politician resigned because his position was untenable after Brexit; put that all together, and a picture emerges that Westminster and the EU are not communicating very effectively and could have wildly different perspectives on how Brexit is going to pan out.
When T May goes on about keeping her Brexit position secret before negotiations begin, there’s a question which enters my head; secret from whom?
I hardly expect the triggering of Article 50 is going to come as a surprise to the EU, and I rather suspect they have a fair grasp of what needs to be negotiated. The prospect of Westminster springing a surprise on them seems… limited. The secrecy puzzles me.
It’s strikes me as more likely the need for such secrecy relates to the unedifying process of cobbling together outline contingency arrangements for Trade when Brexit comes to pass. It’s secret because it isn’t legal for one thing, but secret too because by comparison with the full EU membership Westminster is waving goodbye to, whatever deals and letters of intent exchanged during this phoney war are certain to look threadbare and ad hoc. If “the country” saw that, there’d be panic in the streets and a slide on the pound from which you don’t bounce back.
I get the impression Theresa May was hoping for a kinder Europe, sympathetic to a government obliged to deal with an awkward referendum result, but instead she is meeting with European officials who know full well Brexit was nobody else’s fault except a feeble xenophobic Tory government scared of losing seats to UKIP. But instead of sympathy and condolences, Theresa is finding out the hard way how glad Europe is to be shot of the British and its awkwardness and arrogance. Boris Johnson appointed to the Foreign Office might have been a chuckle six months ago, but the EU wasn’t impressed and I rather suspect nobody is laughing now.
…Jonathan Hill stood down. Forgot his name.
The trouble with Scotland is folk are used to saying “they’ve done whit” too late
But when you try to warn them by saying “they’re going to do something” the population says “we’ll wait and see” and once again that’s too late
Folks brains have been ground down so much to always being reactive instead of proactive
We suffer from the Victor Meldrew politics of I don’t believe it followed by naebdy telt us
We did tell ye says us aye but we thought you were just making it up says them
2 Things
The sticker idea could be 1 (heart) (thistle) NHS
Win indy 2 by offering an increase/top up to Scottish pensions
Track record already established by Scot Gov work on living wage
galamcennalath says:
15 January, 2017 at 8:14 pm
heedtracker says:
What the what!
That will be Vow2 in the making?
Aye, see Donaldo’s crew buried JC’s knock back too. Cunning, raw hard cumming. Boost to UKOK heaven Kez all new and exciting act of union, JC says bugger off, BBC gimps don’t even report it, shock.
So god knows what SLab no.2 is gong to say to JC next week. “I voted for you JC, can I have Kez’s job please. I’m a funny lookin incoherent non entity but how bad can it get now?”
Car sticker? Simple: ‘BBC Scotland is lying to you.’
Galamcennalath @7.04pm
Just been to the Express website to read the Article about T May being urged to Call Nicola’s bluff, because there is a vote on it.
Played Devil’s Advocate and voted NO to the idea – currently, 84% of voters thinks TM should go and ‘make NS hold Indy ref 2’
Would she be that daft?
Amazing how the media can manipulate the masses!
The BUM make me feel sick.
Our SNHS makes me well = )
Simple.
Brian @ 7.37
Re women 55+ voting ‘No’ Who do they think will stand up for them?
Hate to generalise but from conversations I’ve listened to (older, not well off women) they often say:
‘I can’t stand that Nicola Sturgeon’;
‘She’s nothing but trouble. Ay moanin’ ;
‘What’s the SNP ever done for me?’
‘They should bring back Labour. Things were fine under them!’
Quite who they think the ‘They’ is who will bring back a wonderful Labour Party to save them, I don’t know.
Re their ignorance of what the SNP’s ever done for them – that’s up to us all to try and remedy and a damning indictment of the Scottish Media’s lack of truth.
Sadly, they also tend to have an attitude of ‘That’s oor lot an we just have to a get oan wi it!’
We have work to do!
Rather than attack the BBC directly, we should be attacking their lies. Show them up for what they are. When any public service in Scotland comes under media attack, let’s respond immediately, let’s stand and defend it.
I rather like the “Scottish Health Service is the Best” statement.
Or how about: “Baby Boxes are Cool”
Where can I buy a T-shirt?
Re car stickers:
I still like,
“Is that true . . . or did you hear it on the BBC?”
44% of women 55 – 65 voted for Independence.
27% of women over 65 voted for Independence.
Based on a poll of 2000 people.
Every time Boris pops up on the news remember that this doughball is the guy referred to on the GB Passport as “Her Britanic Majesty’s Secretary of State!”
heedtracker
I assume that Alex Rowley has had assurances from the Tories and all the peoples of England that they will go along with this.
How much will sterling fall again as soon as Remainer Theresa finishes her speech of doom next week? Tell your broker, short sterling vile seps:D
Remainer Teresa v Ruth the Mooth. Ruthie babes has been very quiet lately. Its almost as if all new and exciting Donaldo’s got her hiding in her potting shed, like a hibernating hedgehog.
Meg merrilees
There is a lot of work to be done. Those women making those comments don’t seem to realise the Scottish Labour Party in Holyrood has never had to face a Tory Westminster Government. While Lab was in power in Holyrood it was also the Government in Westminster.
Brian Powell says:
15 January, 2017 at 9:23 pm
heedtracker
I assume that Alex Rowley has had assurances from the Tories and all the peoples of England that they will go along with this
No idea. My vile sep eyes glaze over when he or any SLab chump speaketh on to their Scotland region. He needs a proper job, as does JC really, both very odd lads. I really like that nice Tristam chappie, my kind of red tory with all that blue tory bubbling away underneath. You know where you stand with socialist workers like Tristram.
Ken 2@9.11pm
I’m using the figures quotes by Lesley Riddoch(?) yesterday at the Indy conference of fewer than 25% of women 55+ are pro- Indy today…
I’d rather believe your figures!!!
The english NHS is in crisis and is being dismantled, the Scottish NHS is not perfect, but it is being managed well and therefore not in crisis, and not being dismantled. The unionists cannot abide that fact and not only that, they like to pretend that they are subsidsing the SNHS.
I remember quite a few years ago, when Labour were in power at Holyrood, our GP at the time mentioning that the Western General in Edinburgh was going to be closed down. Now that would have left one hospital without the capacity required and hugely expensive due to Labours PFI, the main hospital for the whole of the city, on the edge of the city. The western is still here, has been expanded and is a great hospital, and crucial that it was saved, once the SNP took the helm.
Labour would definitely have dismantled the SNHS first, before the ENHS. Just like the poll tax, they would have used Scotland as a guinea pig, again. (or hamster, as my son once said, which I thought was very sweet!)
Meg merrilees says:
Just the Express playing silly buggers.
However, there are views expressed here and there that an early IndyRef2 would be easier for NO to win.
I suppose their logic is that Brexit will swing soft NO to YES when it’s true nature is apparent, and they want to have it while those NOs are still NO.
However, that is all nonsense because IndyRef2 is a response to Brexit, not just something the SG/SNP fancy having sometime. So it has to be firstly Brexit exposed, then IR2 because it is not in Scotland’s interests.
Actual arrangements for Brexit will be seen as awful, a majority Scots already don’t want it, opinion shifts to YES, Nicola sets the date. Hopefully, a decent YES majority follows.
Well done Rev another great piece. I just wish your stuff could get the MSM coverage it deserves.
@Meg merilees
The problem all interpretations of polling (trends) face is that single polls don’t mean much and aggregate results may not be comparable (different questions, different weightings to make the samples more representative, small samples, etc). James Kelly on ScotgoesPop is good at explaining how he creates his Poll-of-Polls to try to assess changes.
I wasn’t clear yesterday where Craig’s data came from. But he did appear to show a dramatic decline in support for independence among older women.
I think we should behave as if he’s right, and try to address the causes of that decline. Then if it’s smaller than he thought, we’ve got leeway.
I’m sure that there are people in England who would like to repatriate every one who arrived after 1066. There would be special groups to root out any romans or vikings still lurking around.
They get away with this day in and day out because the Press “regulator”, like all other “regulators” and “ombudsmen” is rotten to the core.
Can Scotland afford to wait beyond 2017 for a new referendum on independence?
Galamcennalath
I trust Nicola’s judgement.
Sorry for being ambiguous – I wondered if TMay would be so daft!
Mischief making of the most crass order from the Daily Feckless!
Attended the sold out Scottish Independence Convention on Saturday. Lots of excellent speakers and interesting comments from the floor. However, was disappointed to listen to the editor of The National make a plea for understanding on behalf of print and broadcasts journalists for the difficult job they have and the difficult position they are in. It was very hard not to heckle.
Every SNP MP/MSP/spokesperson should adopt an adversarial, scathing and sarcastic manner towards the hostile print and broadcast journalists and not shrink from highly personalised attacks on their professional integrity, political affiliations, personal failings etc. Play the man/woman/organisation first then get around to answering whatever stupid question has been put. The evidence of the last 10 years is that kid gloves does not work.
The yoons (no matter what party in charge at Westminster) will run the NHS into the ground) you heard it here first.
Our friendly allies “America” are lining up the UK health service for a “slam dunk”.
The facts are there for all to see if you look hard enough, they shafted the Empire at the “big wars” we only stopped paying them for their “help”? a few years back. ALLIES?? Aye right.
They have screwed the UK on the banking crisis(caused by underhand LYING by the Americans), they now have their sights on the NHS.
From Tony “War Crimes” B liar, to the current sorry excuse of a government, the runes say the UK NHS is FKED unless the country wakes up.
(easy money for Shyster and Silverstein inc) every one of them feathering their nests.
O/T
I have posted before about Slabs finest!? Rowley, being an ok politician, just watched him on yatube from brewery this morning,
Slab can keep him, total “embarrassment.”
Stu: I don’t know what we’d do without your clinical slicing and dicing of the MSM’s lies and dis/mis-information. And today we had wet Nats asking us to be nice to these bastards. Not a chance.
@Meg merrilees
====================
The damage Thatcherite (as it was called, actually she was just a front for the budding neo-liberal forces in this country) policies did to our economy are well known and no need to rehearse them here. However many folk don’t seem to realise the more subtle and long-term damaging effects this had on our culture and society.
Fairly strict rules were loosened allowing ministers and public officials to move much more quickly into jobs with big companies who had dealings with their government departments – New Labour did away with this entirely, completing the creation of the “revolving door” between government and big business.
The BBC, always a bit right wing and pro-establishment but once nevertheless still a reasonable source of news if you took its bias into account, was attacked, “managerialised” and eventually turned into a pro-government propaganda machine.
Council house building was reduced (many sold off but Councils not allowed to use the money to build new houses) so we have a housing bubble and young people having to pay fortunes in rent as they can’t get mortgages. Banks encouraged to get people into massive debt, tax dodging for the wealthy encouraged while support for the needy and disabled cut and propaganda encouraging hatred for them is used to split society.
All this came about because of the policies of the Thatcher government and her acolytes who followed such as Blair, Brown, Cameron and now Osborne. I know folk here are aware of the awful consequences we see now but they may not realise the early seeds out of which it grew.
Hamish100,
“It’s May and her cronies including Davidson who don’t beleve Scotland is a country”
Well, like it or not, they are right.
Scotland is a colony, and 55% of the voting electorate endorsed that in September 2014.
There will be absolutely no special deal for Scotland, and therefore it is my view that Nicola is being dishonest in giving the impression that there could be.
A second independence referendum should have been called for immediately after the Brexit vote, when all the unionist parties were in a mess and panic.
We should have struck when the iron was hot.
The evidence of the last 10 years is that kid gloves does not work.
That’s exactly what they want, to drag everyone into their sewer, their tory sewage awaits for the first YES MP and MSP. Its very stinky.
There’s a interview with Salmond on ITV Breakfast tv maybe last week going round with Piers Morgan. Its goes pretty well for an ITV sofa chat Salmond, reasoned, calm and respectful, good humoured fact based, but right at the end Peirs suddenly bursts out and into a really weird display of mockery on Salmond, Scotland, you, me and any Scot interested in not being run by planet toryboy.
Salmond just smiles.
Clive Scott,
“However, was disappointed to listen to the editor of The National make a plea for understanding on behalf of print and broadcasts journalists for the difficult job they have and the difficult position they are in. It was very hard not to heckle.”
The National does not support independence and never has.
It is a cash cow for the Herald group to milk gullible independence supporters.
Buy The National if you want to keep the venomous The Herald alive.
A second independence referendum should have been called for immediately after the Brexit vote, when all the unionist parties were in a mess and panic.
We should have struck when the iron was hot.
It wasn’t hot:D
Also, if it was lost last year, what’s the plan Rock? Slither into a BBC Scotland future ruled world of snivelling shits, all desperately trying to expunge anything YES and SNP. That’s what cold iron striking gets you.
Markets have opened in Far East. Pound at 1.204 against the dollar.
It is not just political parties such as the Tories who are pro privatisation of the NHS there is also support for it within elements in the upper reaches of the medical profession and their professional bodies such as the BMA and the Royal Colleges. They won’t say it directly – apart from some GPs particularly in England who have on several occasions over the last few years floated the idea of charging for appointments.
Listen, listen carefully, when any of them are interviewed such as today when Gordon Brewer interviewed the head of the Scottish branch of the BMA. It is what they don’t say that is important.
None say explicitly that privatisation is the way to go. What they do say is:. ‘Current situation is unsustainable’. Or: ‘We need to change how we do things’. Or: We need to have a discussion/consultation with the public about the way firward’
All designed to put privatisation or some form of payment system on the agenda.
Note, it is not all doctors. It is not even a majority but it exists. So pay attention. It is not just politicians who are on the privatisation hobby horse.
If you are serious about converting NO voters to YES then a good place to start might be to stop referring to them as ‘yoons’.
It just makes you sound like a bunch of yokels.
The pound has already dropped below $1.20 and against the Euro it is below 1.13 tonight.
I noticed a commentor mentioned the press complaints commission/press regulator..
I read an article by a Jon Danzig about the British msm and their lies and made up stories, he wrote to IPSOS to complain,….
He waited 7 months on a reply, only to discover the chairman was also the editor of the daily mail, ? Dacre…didn’t catch his first name….
never found the article again……
It just makes you sound like a bunch of yokels.
What if you are a yokel, like me. Yoon culture works, anyway why is it beyond your ken to accept that medics may be lobbying hard right now for more funding, right now, as its getting cut so much anyway?
The medic that Brewer interviewed conceded Scots NHS was stretched but coping. What he really wants is more consultants but that takes a decade at least.
@Dan Huil
It could be the Herald. It had that series of articles about the effects of Brexit, and is still giving good coverage to groups like the universities that are saying what damage it will do with the loss of freedom of movement.
It’d be good if it was the Herald, as newsquest own a whole load of local newspapers including mine. I’d say they’ll wait and see the UKSC ruling / Sewel and the Holyrood LCM, and if it’s to be a hard Brexit. Like the SNP with Indy Ref 2 timing is important and I’d guess they don’t want to jump too soon. Interesting article today about Wendy Alexander, vice principal of Dundee Uni.
One poll that was done was the BMG one for the Herald. You can get the full breakdown of results clicking on the link down the page.
link to bmgresearch.co.uk
The Herald is definitely keeping an eye on things.
The Scottish NHS have been trying to lure doctors to Scotland for some years – they have offered a ‘golden handshake’ to fill GP posts in rural areas.
I don’t see what else they can do as I read earlier that most newly qualified doctors, nurses and midwives expect to go overseas where they are appreciated.
Says a lot about the Tory government.
legerwood
A fair point. To me a Yoon is the die hard Unionist that would vote No even if they knew perfectly well that it was not in Scotland’s best interest.
A No voter by contrast is just an ordinary voter trying to make the best of the information they have and hoping they are making the right choice. Many that voted No were doing so because they believed they were doing so with their head even though their heart might have wanted it to be otherwise. It’s hard to vote Yes when the BBC and the great and the good are telling you that there will be no pension, no NHS, no schools and that WW3 will start if Scotland becomes independent.
O/T just noticed Neil Oliver’s quote of putting distance between himself and the SNP as he appears to be in New Zealand. Do us a favour and stay there.
@Returnofthemac
Perhaps they’ll be making the precursor of the Hobbit there, the Silmarillion, and Oliver will naturally be pressed into service as an orc. Or, of course, Gollum himself!
My Preciousssss
Yoon culture hard core, apparently “North Sea oil could have helped tackle the NHS crisis and pension liabilities by contributing to a sovereign wealth fund.”
link to theguardian.com
Its not been wasted too much. England does have a lot to show it all.
The irony of Neil Oliver finding refuge from the SNP in a small country of 5m people that is successfully independent and it is a place he likes is quite remarkable.
It is asking a lot of the Kiwis that they keep him but I suspect he is just doing a Coast programme and that he will return to us in due course.
That Graun can’t bring himself to mention his Scotland region of greater England either.
“John Penrose, the Conservative MP for Weston-super-Mare, has a more radical suggestion – do what should have been done all those years ago and launch a sovereign wealth fund.”
Aye, N.Oliver, the, ‘historian’ in N.Z, god help them. There are no castles or anything there, history is scant Neil, like your heed, there are lots of mountains to get lost in though.
Aye, N.Oliver, the, ‘historian’ in N.Z, god help them.
M?ori culture of New Zealand feels a lot like Gaelic in Scotland. So that is one hard core yoon that is going to see a lot of resemblance in the way the incoming anglos have dealt with and are dealing with, the indigenous non British push back against colonialism. Its probably why you never hear about what is happening in New Zealand with the indigenous people, from outfits like the BBC.
@Artyhetty
I expect Neil Oliver’s doumentary will reveal that New Zealand was a primitive country with no native population until the British Empire took pity and spread itself all over to protect the non-existent indigenous natives from, errr, themselves. The New Zealand Wars of 1845-72 apparently never happened, and New Zealand will be as glad to be rid of Oliver as many of us in Scotland would be.
I doubt his visa will be renewed.
Agree Heedtracker. Was almost going to live there yrs ago, but thought culturally quite devoid, except for Maori. Lots probs thr now,gov v like tories,wrecking land,water, seas etc,Maori’s still very marginalised far as I can see. They are much more likely to be poor, jobless and suffer mental health probs. Shame, a great country otherwise.
Usually catch up what’s going on in N.Z via Greenpeace N.Z. All a huge worry, was once a place to be looked up to, environmentally at least.
Heedtracker, agree, NEVER want to see any of us dragged into that sewer.
You are very good at what you do and very kind to our Rock, steering him in the right direction without removing your kid gloves…today = )
Oh here some of you bloody well go AGAIN! Let’s just have a cheap pop at women, especially if they are over 55. On what level do you think you are winning friends rather than creating enemies?
I have supported Scottish independence all my life. I’ll soon be 64 but honestly to god, some of you really put me off with your generalisations.
I’m almost tempted to vote NO next time just to piss you off (only joking).
Just listened to BBC propaganda. (Sorry). NHS cancelling cancer operations wholesale, apparently in England but not stated as such until a byword at the end of the report.
I have e-mailed my MP asking him to raise the question of Scotland’s health service be renamed back to its original, getting rid of NHS Scotland, a title somewhat disliked by many in our health service & largely ignored by the English State broadcasting company.
Original was changed by one of our former colonial governors, Michael Forsythe, I believe. Just one of the useless things the useless twat did for his home nation.
@Yesindyref2
So Mr Oliver has travelled to a small, successful, independent nation of almost 5 million in order to troll a small devolved nation of just over 5 million in the middle of constitutional and economic upheaval?
He’s no just the brightest, is he? 😀
@Macart
With any luck he’ll be invited to face the All Blacks doing the Haka, the referee will blow the whistle and someone will give him the ball.
Neil Oliver doing the usual Yoon “Oh God, isn’t Scotland such a horrible country etc..”
“However, was disappointed to listen to the editor of The National make a plea for understanding on behalf of print and broadcasts journalists for the difficult job they have and the difficult position they are in.”
That seems like such a strange attitude. What is the difficult position that they are in?
If they have to remain neutral, I don’t see why that’s the problem. If he’s hinting that they are leaned on to go a certain way, then I don’t have much sympathy for them.
@Yesindyref2
Clean underpants optional. 😀
Just listening to BBC1 and it’s “Over to the US where Trump won by the narrowest of margins”.
Whatever you think of Trump, the BBC lie yet again. Trump won by 304 to 227 in the electoral college vote, with 30 states as opposed to 20. “Narrowest”? Lying swine.
@Macart
That’s made me feel very queasy!
Stuckdoonthehame@2.17am
‘Let’s just have a cheap pop at women, especially if they are over 55’
I am a 60 year old female. I was the first on this thread @ 3.55pm to particularly single out this age group and I’m sorry if you think my remarks, or others, are a ‘cheap pop at women over 55+ but they are my genuine concerns at the horrendous statistic mentioned on saturday at the Independence convention, in Glasgow, that my age group has only a 22%-25% support for an Independent Scotland. Compare that with the 16-34 age group where it already stands at 51%
My comment @ 8.58, which I preceded by saying ‘I hate to generalise’ contains genuine remarks I have heard expressed, often, by women in this age group when I have been socialising with them. That’s what worries me!
Things are better in Scotland than the rest of the UK for this age group so what can I do, we do, to try and get the facts to this group of women.
e.g. What has the SNP ever done for me? Free prescriptions; frozen Council tax for the last few years; kept free bus passes at 60; tackled the Bedroom tax; introduced Baby boxes – for their daughter’s/grandchildren’s benefit etc.
Please never give up on Scottish Independence – we will all need to do everything we can to help spread the word and counteract the lies spread by the BBC, The Daily Mail and other papers so as to bring everyone with us on the road to Indy.
Yesindyref2
Did Hilary get 2million or 3 million more votes? Can’t remember as it was so close!
Andy Murray just won through to next round. Well done that man- Sir!
Neil Oliver is a very angry and bitter man.
I suspect that his brief from the Colonial authorities is to convince us that London rule is good and the British Empire was a force for good.
He got promised a gong that was dependent on his work turning Scots off of Independence.
That hasn’t worked, with the result that he gets no gong and that has produced even more anger from him.
Sandy Says:
Just listened to BBC propaganda. (Sorry). NHS cancelling cancer operations wholesale, apparently in England but not stated as such until a byword at the end of the report.
I have e-mailed my MP asking him to raise the question of Scotland’s health service be renamed back to its original, getting rid of NHS Scotland, a title somewhat disliked by many in our health service & largely ignored by the English State broadcasting company.
Original was changed by one of our former colonial governors, Michael Forsythe, I believe. Just one of the useless things the useless twat did for his home nation.
I agree Sandy but I think this is all a part of the BBC’s master plan. They can’t be allowed to see Scotland’s NHS doing well and the rest of the country do so badly so they have to express it in different ways to maintain it’s BAAAAADNESS.
If for instance you live in Scotland the BBC’s remit is to pick up on such figures as the one mentioned in this article because most news bulletins are shown after the national news so it’s got to balance with the bad news from there.
If you were to watch south of the border the idea being is to speak about the terrible state of the NHS but should Scotland be mentioned because of say junior doctors strike then it’s a case of play that down and make people think that it’s being subsidised by Westminster somehow by mentioning the Scottish budget.
By playing both sides though it’s a tightrope because it’s driving a wedge between the countries and it’s only a matter of time before that opinion registers with people who voted last time to remain with the UK. Healthcare and the NHS is a matter for national pride on all sides. Gordon Brown used it as a last throw of the dice to frighten pensioners into voting NO.
This time that battle line needs to be drawn and pointed out because it’s an easy win for people in an aging population to vote for a health system that looks after them and the BBC and others know it.
link to caltonjock.com
Morning all.
Re the unveiling of the billboard posters, going live Scotland-wide today. I went out for a daunder last night to check out the site for the one on Glasgow’s Clydeside Expressway.
If your driving toon-bound (East) and coming fae Partick (West), you’ll see the Clear Channel billboards to your right (just before you go under the pedestrian bridge near to the helipad,) there are six of them. They currently advertise everything from cars to furniture to fast food..
BUT, to the far right there was a blank billboard, so I guess it’s been prepped up and that’s where the poster is going (I mean how often do you see an empty billboard space? High profile stuff here!) I realise the posters are for single use.
BTW, wait till you see the current poster to the left of BBC Misreporting Scotland billboard.. it will be very fitting, but you’ll have to go and see it for yourself.. I’ll give you a clue though, it’s indirectly related to Donalda.
Good luck to ye Cadogan Enright and all the team at Inform Scotland and good luck to all the eager photographers too.
Roll on the rush hours!
Links
link to indyref2.scot
link to autonomyscotland.org
link to randompublicjournal.com
Scotland’s Brexit minister accuses Tories of ‘con-trick’
link to archive.is
Neil Findlay helped by BBC saying sport is important. Shouldn’t he take it up?
There’s always a catch
link to richardcorbett.org.uk
Self serving tory
link to archive.is
link to theneweuropean.co.uk
link to politico.eu
Eoghan Murphy: Hard Brexit is now inevitable
link to archive.is
Brexit blues
link to archive.is
“The two major economic weaknesses in Great Britain are the considerable trade deficit and the large budget deficit. The “threats” of Hammonds with taxes and tax cuts are therefore threats with self-harm and as such an expression of British helplessness, “said CDU deputy Norbert Röttgen of the” world “.
Use your translate function for the rest of the article
link to welt.de
link to uk.businessinsider.com
Nana:
Thank you, Kettle’s on
Peace Always
Welcome to smallville,an everyday town,anywhere.
All the ‘big car’ salesmen have gone,the windows of the casino bankers,all boarded up,they have headed back down south,(what is it they say,about nesting birds and well fed dogs ?).
Seems like they been lying to everbody for….well forever,I looked at the sign,below the big Welcome letters,somebody had written….to The Project…The Fear.
It only took a decade or so for it all to collapse,people in Scotland (as is their want) were first to take them on,but they somehow slithered away,avoiding defeat,narrowly and by the skin of their teeth….then came brexit….then trump.
Finally more and more people acknowledged,that if something was untrue by an inch,it was untrue by a mile (and the fear was gone) people don’t much appreciate being lied to,or threatened….it was payback time.
No,No,you had your chance,forget it…it’s over….but it wasn’t over,the second chance came and the people grabbed it with both hands.
The painter washed over everything on the sign except the big Welcome letters and when the undercoat had dried,he painted on some new words.
Welcome to Scotland
Failte gu Alba
(Yes,we are better together,but just in a way that they never intended or could have ever imagined,turns out,there is a big difference to what people choose to believe (truth) and what people ‘feel compelled’ to believe (propaganda).
#PlantFlowersNotWeeds
And HEY!
Don’t forget to SOUND YOUR HORN when you pass your billboard!
Make some noise!
carjamtic:
Love it! where can we buy the book? 🙂
Peace Always
@Smallaxe Good morning, have a few more links.
link to indyref2.scot
link to snp.org
link to rt.com
Two clowns
link to youtube.com
With the English NHS in meltdown and BBC Labour desperate to tar the Scottish NHS with the same brush, now is an opportune time to rebrand the Scottish NHS. The Scottish government really needs to highlight the fact that our health service is distinct and it is performing a lot better than the one doon sooth. Something simple, for example:
The Scottish health Service
or
Scottish Health
Avoid the “national!” bit IMO – too easy to connect with the English NHS.
Imagine how the yoons would howl with rage. 🙂 The SG could even organise a poll to select the most popular new name. With NHS doon sooth in meltdown, now would be an excellent time to do it.
So Nicola, Shona, how about it?
Remember last month we heard that 62 people were as rich as half the population of the planet, 3.5 billion?
Apparently that was wrong. It’s 8 rich people.
Think tank tells Oxfam to stop obsessing about the rich and get on with the day job, food parcels etc.
Eight billionaires ‘as rich as world’s poorest half’ – link to bbc.co.uk
There are going to be pure loads of people driving to work today, looking out their windows at the new billboard posters, who will then find themselves saying..
Yes!
“Brexit together”
Says Labours Caroline Flynt, sound familiar
Nana:
Elevenses as well! Great.
Peace Always
@cactus:
Looking forward to seeing the billboards at Glenrothes tomorrow!
I wonder how Misreporting Scotland will report the nationwide event. Should be interesting…
Am loving your pure joy Cactus = )
Will we be seeing any bonny new posters here in the east? Sadly,this neck of the woods is in dire need of encouragement!
What a bright start to our new week = )
Meg at 6.54am – was there any speculation on why the 55+ women age group is not keen on independence?
I am thinking along the lines of which demographic would, generally, have the lowest self-esteem? It takes a certain amount of self-belief & belief in your fellow citizen to believe independence is best – if you have been told all your life how worthless you are, it is a difficult thing to believe otherwise. Building self-belief and confidence in those cases might bring about change – people tend to only look at the numbers & practical aspects after they have emotionally decided on what they want. Just a thought.
@ Cactus
Could you please let me know where the billboard will be stopping in South Queensferry tomorrow?
And if this happens again could you please stop off in Dunfermline somewhere? Thanks.
Neil Oliver goes to a country with a large Scottish diaspora, many supporting Scottish Independence and whinges about the party supporting Indy? That’ll work out well.
@ Luigi
“The Scottish health Service
or Scottish Health
Avoid the “national!” bit IMO – too easy to connect with the English NHS.”
Absolutely right.
Some folk want Scottish National Health Service (SNHS) but that’s playing in to the Unionist hands.
Scottish = country-wide
National = country-wide
You don’t need two so SCOTTISH it must be.
If you have SNHS then every msm article, Beeb story, beeb interview, Ligger Andra, Marr etc. will by “pure coincidence” “forget” the word Scottish and say NHS.
You’re back to square one again screaming at the tele, “It’s the Scottish …..”
Don’t open the door one little chink or they’ll pounce.
Scottish Health Service 🙂
Nana says:
….a “hard Brexit” is inevitable now and that there is a growing danger of a “disorderly” exit from the EU by the UK …
Disorderly? Usually it’s a Hard Brexit. Hard as opposed to soft cuddly Brexit.
Real Brits like it hard, soft is for wimps.
At one point the phrase Dirty Brexit was being banded about to describe a UK walk away.
Clearly ‘dirty’ wasn’t a word the Brexiteers who actually want a walk away liked. So the coined the term Clean Brexit, as is clean break. The media obliged and we hear no more of Dirty, just Clean.
And now another possible label, a Disorderly Brexit. Seems a good description of the chaotic approach May et al seem to be taking.
Rock says: 15 January, 2017 at 11:08 pm
Rock,
Come on are you daft, do you think in any way we could start and win a independence referendum in 2017, do you really think Nicola Sturgeon is a liar, and finally what is the Scotland can’t wait pish.
So your contributions on this thread is, Don’t trust Nicola as she is a liar, have a vote when the indications are we would lose, and don’t trust the National as it is a front for unionists.
Tell you what I believe, given what you say, and I can’t read your mind so I don’t know what the hell is going on in there, but everything you say is what unionists say, if you are a unionist troll, you are so obvious as to be laughable, if you are an independence supporter, you need to become better informed, you need to think your argument through and stop talking crap.
gerry parker, Andy, Meg Merrilees, Liz Rannoch et al:
Re; OUR health service. I too shall write to Shona Robinson etc. We have to start somewhere and we really need to produce something that clearly differentiates our relatively successful service from the struggling other services south of our border.
Have a read at the comment by ‘Luigi’ at 8:40am this morning – that’s where i’m coming from – it’s as if he’s read my mind. Reading all the comments on this thread i get the impression that the most popular choice seems to be The Scottish Health Service. Has anyone any objections to promoting that choice?
Let’s do this folks! As thepnr stated in his post further up stream, there should be no need for petitions and the SNP should have been right onto this (especially since it was a stinking blue Tory responsible for the current deliberate confusing situ). Well, the SNP haven’t so maybe they require a wee push in the right direction? They are, after-all, a listening Party.
Meg, i will respond to you (re: Fact Cards) in more depth once i get a bit more time to myself, we really need to get that idea flowing also. We just can’t keep relying on others to do this, that and the other and sitting on our erses waiting on something to happen. We need to have the public educated to the facts long before someone squeezes that starting trigger.
SNHS/NHS renaming?
I’d choose Healthcare Scotland and I would widen the scope to include ‘care’, as they do in Northern Ireland.
Well, Tom Gordon political editor of the Herald has certainly earned his appearance money on yesterday’s BBC Scotland’s Sunday politics show during which Just To Be Clear Brewer invented a SHS ‘breaking point’ Project Fear story from a recorded interview with Glasgow based Consultant psychiatrist Peter Bennie, who is chair of the British Medical Association’s Branch Office in Scotland, and member of the BMA UK Committee. (No vested Unionist interest there, eh?)
The Herald BritLand leads their online offering with:-
“NHS stretched to ‘breaking point’ says British Medical Association Chief’.
The opening paragraph of this unattributed piece of SNP BAD mince?
“Nicola Sturgeon’s attempts (I must have missed the ‘attempts’)to calm fears (whose ‘fears’? Miles Briggs’? Wullie Rennie’s? WATP Tomkins’?)over the NHS in Scotland (You mean the ‘Scottish Health Service’, Herald?)have suffered a severe setback after one of the country’s ‘most senior doctors (is he?) warned (another Nicola ‘warning’ from the Herald)that the service is at breaking point.”
I watched the Brewer pre-recorded (and presumably Unionist edited ) Sunday Politics Brewer/ Bennie piece.
Bennie said, that the Scottish Health Service is coping but near breaking point. He acknowledged that the Health Professionals are working with the Scottish Government on tackling the problems, and that extra money had been diverted to resolving critical mass health issues.
Presumably Tom Gordon as editor ok ‘d this anonymous Project Fear /SNP BAD/ Health in crisis piece of frippery?
Yet Elaine C Smith exhorted us all to go easy on the Dead Tree Scrollers at the SIC Conference this week end. aye, right.
They deserve all they get, Ms Smith.
Graf Midgehunter on 16 January, 2017 at 9:48 am:
Spot on!
Winger-inspired competition now growing legs
link to facebook.com
Stoker @ 10.00 and others
SHS or HSS – absolutely nothing with N in it! Still no answer to my email of 10/1/16.
I presume Clegg and Gordon met on Sunday to decide the Better Together SNP Bad Project Fear Health Scare headlines for Monday’s editions.
The Daily Record has a picture of a seven year old with tubes sticking out of him on a hospital bed, and details his mother’s 300 mile a ‘day’ trip to Edinburgh to see him because Glasgow’s New Hospital hadn’t a bed. (Glasgow to Edinburgh 45 miles BTW)
There is mention of an estranged father in the piece, who seems to have done nothing to alleviate his son’s mother’s anguish in all of this.
The SNP are the BADDEST FUCK UPS in the history of Scotland.
Alex Rowley and Iain Gray wouldn’t have let this scandal happen. Vote Labour!
The sad tattered remnants of journalism in Scotland.
Clegg, pathetic.
Norway`s $885,000,000,000 oil fund is trending on twitter,
seems `Britain` is pissed they don`t have one.
galamcennalath 9:57 am
… it is beyond argument now that the UK is going to hard Brexit.
A soft Brexit would always require the continuation of free movement and that is not politically possible in the UK given the EU Referendum result.
The degree of “hardness” of Brexit will be ultimately be dependent upon the stance taken by the EU.
Just with events so far, with the £ devaluation, coupled with strong growth and other good economic indicators, as discussed previously, our negotiators have a number of cards to play and will actually be able to “negotiate”. This is surely good for everyone in the UK (including those of us in Scotland and London and the South East that voted Remain), given that we are leaving the EU.
If the EU refuse to “give” on anything then we will have to revert to WTO rules and the EU will have to work out how much cash they lose (our net contribution, the value of the tariff differential on our EU trade deficit) as well as the impact of the weaker pound and the increased competitiveness of our exports to the EU whilst EU exporters find their products more expensive and less competitive.
I know many here believe that is the strategy that the EU will employ but I really can’t see them voting for economic recession in the EU (are they that stupid?) just to have a parting shot at the UK. In addition, regardless of what we think of Mr Trump, he does seem to be enthusiastic about a quick Trade Deal with the UK post Brexit and there may well be others (India, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, China, etc,) that might be prepared to move quickly.
So most of the news that I am seeing seems to be helping us with our negotiation position or, if no deal can be done, then we will still be very competitive in Europe and more competitive in the rest of the world.
I am therefore increasing in confidence that we can be OK.
So, from today, SKY news cannot be taken seriously, and should just be called what they have become – the joke uber right wing ‘news’ channel, called FOX news, that is a standing joke in the USA.
To even consider leading with a so-called ‘interview’ of the racist, homophobic president elect of the USA, by a pro brexit uber right wing Tory MP, Michael Gove, is an utter joke, of truly epic proportions.
What next? The leader of the KKK interviews some white supremacists, and finds out they are ‘actually really nice thoughtful guys’.
Jeez, the mainstream media, just seems intent on carrying down the path of irrelevancy.
SKY news – right wing propaganda you can subscribe to. A freaking joke.
Scottish NHS at breaking point
Teacher numbers shredded
Councils funding slashed
Pollution in our cities killing us
Commonwealth games a waste of taxpayers money because we’ve got fat kids
And now Trump is great
We should virtually commit suicide before the SNP do more stuff to us
Who are these folk who say we should be kinder to Unionists to win them over because I do not get that
With every day that passes they shriek this garbage into our faces laughing their heads off as they do it “We control the media Ha Ha”
I’m not one little bit sanguine about this
Really grumpy man….. Bishopbriggs
Imagine planet toryboy newsroom UKOK fury and rage, if junked sterling was all down to Prime Minister Nic Sturgeon. And right now, all new and exciting Donaldo’s crew in Glasgow are busily trying to spin that too.
link to bloomberg.com
I agree with othera above, the NHS in Scotland should definitely be renamed the Scottish health service, as it always previously was, until Thatcher.
The media seem intent, no matter how often it is pointed out, to misleadingly conflate what is happening in England under Tory rule, to what is happening in Scotland.
These things seem trivial, but they really, really matter, otherwise the Tories would not have changed it when they did.
I just wonder why Neil Oliver hates his own country, Scotland, so much. Oh, that’s right, he’s a London loving unionist.
I am therefore increasing in confidence that we can be OK.
Another toryboy Britnat zealot waffles for the UK. Its probably UKOK planet toryboy’s greatest catastrofuck, since Peace in our time sensible.
And yes, we know sensibledave, your Scotland region of greater England is coming with you, kicking and screaming, like the annoying sweaties always do.
If you find your local MP’s contact details on their website, there is a wee form, where you put your details, as they need to confirm you are a constituent. Write to them and ask them to lobby Shona Robertson on rebranding the Scottish NHS. We have to bombard them from MP’s to MSP’s, they will forward any messages to the health minister too. Here’s mine…make it personal and brief, it takes 2 minutes and at least then they have a public pushing them to consider rebranding:
‘Dear Patrick
In light of the media focus on England’s NHS crisis and the constant ‘conflation’ of Scotland’s NHS with this genuine crisis taking place down south. I would like to lobby Patrick to take this up with his colleagues and especially with Shona Robertson to have our Scottish Health service renamed. This is causing untold harm to Scotland’s health service which has an excellent reputation in terms of all targets being well above other NHS services within the UK and allows our NHS to be used as a political football by the opposition parties in the Scottish parliament.
I cannot emphasise enough how this has to be a priority for the SNP to consider. The public is being bombarded by the media and the inference that there is the same crisis occurring within Scotland’s health service is tantamount to ‘fake news’. This needs to be addressed and the one way to ensure that this is corrected is to seriously consider rebranding our health service. Thereby ending this relentless ‘monstering’ of our health service.
I’d appreciate if Patrick could look into this and would suggest that a public consultation is held to test the viability of rebranding as I’m also certain that there is a strong backing for this within Scotland that does not have a voice in the public realm to address the constant ‘misinformation’ that is being fed to the Scottish public by our media.
Yours sincerely’
heedtracker says:
15 January, 2017 at 11:45 pm
“”It just makes you sound like a bunch of yokels.
What if you are a yokel, like me. Yoon culture works, anyway why is it beyond your ken to accept that medics may be lobbying hard right now for more funding, right now, as its getting cut so much anyway?
The medic that Brewer interviewed conceded Scots NHS was stretched but coping. What he really wants is more consultants but that takes a decade at least.””
………….
It I’ll behoves anyone to say something is beyond someone’s ken when they cannot get their head around the use of quotation marks.
I am well aware that doctors at all levels and other medical professionals are lobbying for more money for the NHS particularly in England where they have to make £22 billion of efficiency savings by 2020.
Read my post again. I said there is an element within the senior reaches of the medical profession and in general practice who are not averse to the idea of privatisation of the NHS. They may not come out openly and say so but neither do they wholeheartedly come out in support of the attempts to keep it free at the point of use.
It also takes much longer than 10 years to get to consultant level.
BREXIT TOGETHER. I kid you not. It’s a new cross party organisation. Caroline flint droning on about how we all need to come together on Radio scotland now. Pathetic.
Heedy 10.42
You wrote: “Imagine planet toryboy newsroom UKOK fury and rage, if junked sterling was all down to Prime Minister Nic Sturgeon. And right now, all new and exciting Donaldo’s crew in Glasgow are busily trying to spin that too.”
… not sure I understood all that Heedy but I think you were having a pop at Ms May (a Remainer) and the Tory heartlands (London and South East that voted Remain)?
You need to refocus on the targets for your ire. Post EUref analysis suggests that it was the MIdlands, The north of England, and Wales what won it for the Leavers. May I suggest you work up some new material involving whippets, flat caps, blue collars and ex Welsh miners?
Your current script is looking a bit “post-truth”!
O/T light relief, Aussie press coverage of Murray AO Melbourne win today,
Murray warms to the task
It took Andy Murray two sets to get going on Monday, but the Scot won his first match in a major since becoming world No.1.
TeamGB, rancid The Graun style reportage Murray win,
Andy Murray makes hard work of Illya Marchenko in Australian Open first round
World No1 beats Ukrainian 7-5, 7-6 (7-5), 6-2
Nice. BBC r4 news sports gimps only report Murray score, no match report, focus on some English chap on a yacht, in an ocean somewhere, where it’s windy and wet and very very English BBC.
As Samuel Clements attributed to Disraeli (probably erroneously):
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
Lots of posters suggesting a rebranding of the Scottish National Health Service.
There is just one wee drawback to this suggestion.
REBRANDS COST MONEY
All the image consultants, focus groups, interested parties who would be involved would have to have their say; there would have to be meetings, meetings about meetings; mock-ups; targeted consultations and so forth – all of which are charged for at top rates. The whole exercise would cost £ millions.
Then, once the new name was decided on, all the ambulances would have to be re-liveried; all the buildings would have to have new name boards outside them; the paperwork headings would all need to be changed.
All of this would be an own goal gift to the red, blue and yellow Tories who would mobilise their friends in the media to point-out that: “at a time when the NHS in Scotland is in crisis, with (insert your own particular first-choice of crisis here) the SNP is wasting £X millions on this pointless re-branding exercise” Or, if you like: SNP Baaaaaddddd!!!!!.
Difficult though it might be, leave well alone, do the re-brand post-Independence.
“Cancer operations cancelled across the UK!” that was the Beeb last night.
@ Meg, gaun yersel hen!
The ex-pat Neil Oliver will already have joined a St Andrew’s Society & ordered a wee kilt & cashmere scarf to match, tartan shoulder bags are available from Amazon.
If Rock’s a Yoon Troll he’s a particularly boring & thick wan. Is he/she Spanner?
Thanks for the Fisheries link Nana, English Labour have their eyes on oor fish!
“and the EU will have to . . .”
“Our Imperial masters have arrived, welcome our Imperial masters”.
Here’s one for our guest:
link to youtube.com
As an independence supporting Brexiteer, I agree with all the points made by Sensible Dave.
I also think that the intervention of Trump has just made independence a lot harder.
With the threat of economic meltdown receding and the chances of EU disintegration increasing I just can’t see the Scottish population warming to NS’s position of love for the EU as a reason for Scotland leaving the U.K.
Trump’s words about nations wanting to maintain their national identity certainly resounded with me and, for the time being, I’d much rather be part of the UK than be a vassal in a German dominated EU.
Oh he’s back trying to ‘drum up’ evidence of ‘anti English’ rhetoric on Wings. Thing is he’s the one who’s describing his fellow Englanders and Welsh in ‘stereotypical’ terms. Arse.
Read my post again. I said there is an element within the senior reaches of the medical profession and in general practice who are not averse to the idea of privatisation of the NHS.
Legerwood, you need to reference your work:D
NHS is privatised and has been since its inception. In Aberdeen, there’s a great way to jump the Q’s
link to bmihealthcare.co.uk
This is not news. This kind of health costs. Consultants here are all NHS too.
You’re only getting close to what may happen, a GP service much like NHS dental health care, paying for a better or extra treatment at the dentist, gold crowns instead of lead:D for example. But then how would that work, extra time in front of your GP for an extra special offer diagnosis?
The medic on the Brewer show was clear, its consultants that are they are short of. Where do they get more of them? Expanding medical schools, like ARI/Aberdeen uni presumably. It all takes at least a decade too. There’s certainly no shortage of clever kids grafting away for 5 A+ Highers.
Clearly its all down to planning, good or bad, and all of it underneath the UKOK vote NO and vote anyone but SNP, BBC led attack propaganda.
Ah Pete, you’re a fake independence supporter, too obvious.
The UK isn’t a ‘country’. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Scotland ‘wanting to maintain our national identity’ ‘fits’ Trumps rhetoric too, but ah note yer ‘blind eye’ tae the obvious.
The daily Record also reports the cancellation of Cancer operations UK wide. Could there be truth in this??
… not sure I understood all that Heedy but I think you were having a pop at Ms May (a Remainer) and the Tory heartlands (London and South East that voted Remain)?
Even that’s a sensibledave lie, sensible. Only London voted Remain. The south east of England is ferocious Leave vote zone.
Why lie like this sensible?
Anyway if youre such a Remain EUphile, why are you desperately trying to spin for Leave and Teresa, UKOK on Scotland here? Or, if Teresa was a Remain, why is she working for hardest Brexit possible?
Need I even ask.