The fifth column revealed
Posted on
May 09, 2020 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Just an SNP activist tonight, saying that it doesn’t matter whether there’s a majority for independence in the Scottish Parliament or not, and that it’s undemocratic for a new pro-indy party to stand democratically for election like any other and take seats from Unionists (as long as the SNP hold power in the devolved administration, of course).
Other SNP activists, meanwhile, are already openly trying to dig dirt and undermine the women leading the new party, which is only planning to contest list seats and therefore poses no threat to the SNP whatsoever. Does anyone still think the current SNP care about independence, rather than power?
The SNP are in for a massive shock!!
Saw folk earlier (a certain wordy worthy writer) attempting to say that the Green vote is holding too.
Just wait until folk are polled about this new party (or whichever formation, with whoever ends up leading it).
I can’t wait to vote for a party that unashamedly priorities independence, and I’ll delight in telling the others that when I loaned them my vote they wasted it so they don’t deserve to ask it of me again!!
Thats fucking shocking – the whole thing is bizarre. They will need rentokil in to get rid of the rat infestation, no matter who or how up , this poison needs cut out.
Stu Campbell asked: “Does anyone still think the current SNP care about independence, rather than power?
I don’t. Sturgeon, her husband and their praetorian guard of subservient British colonial administrators must go.
Hurts to admit it, but quite a few appear to be,to coin a phrase, ‘soft yes’.
It’s almost like the Declans are scared of being found out that they are actually AGAINST Scottish Independence and are simply just some mad woke turds who attach themselves to legitimate causes to give themselves credibility.
These ‘people’ who have infitrated the SNP, do NOT have independence as a priority. Indeed, I would go further and say, independence is not important to them at all. They are the kind of folk, who decades ago, would be leeching on to the Labour party. Now it is the SNP they infect.
I very much look forward to a legitimate, forward thinking list party, that has independence as its absolute core policy.
Firstly, it will deprive unionists of seats in the Scots parliament, and secondly, it will put a rocket under NS and the SNP hierarchy, to get rid of these wokeist infiltrators, who have their own personal agenda, rather than independence as a priority.
If he/them/they (WTF??) want to pursue such daft policies on gender in politics, then they should start their own party. Oh, hang on I forgot, they can’t because NOBODY would vote for them.
They are squealing already. Good.
Rotting from within and rotten to the core!
THIS IS NO LONGER THE PARTY OF WHICH I WAS A MEMBER, CAMPAIGNER, FOOT-SOLDIER AND CANDIDATE.
I’M OFFICIALLY DONE WITH THE SNP.
What am I missing, has a new party been declared ? I certainly hope so. Or am
I misreading this
I`m cancelling my membership too, Sturgeon and co are not interested in independence. We have been betrayed.
A new Independence supporting party, what is its name and who has formed it ?
I’d given some thought to a woman’s independent list party (shite grammar intended) being the best way to light a fire under the arses of the wokerati. The ISP won’t be women only but Collette and Victoria have already set them ablaze.
The tantrums… 🙂
About time someone woke up and realised that the SNP haven’t cared about independence since 1997! And why would we want less names on the polling paper! Everyone deserves a shot if they dream big enough! Bring on the wall!
Old Pete has already asked (above) – what is the party? Also, is this one of several? What do we know about those involved?
Gotcha….Nice one Rev.Next.
I will try again,as last post seems to have disappeared .
If you are naive enough to think some amazing independence party is going to ride over the horizon you are an idiot.
SNP are the only shit game in town, tory,labour, fib dems, who the fuck are you going to vote for, I abhor some of the SNP policies but unless you can find a new party who will need the population to contribute to their cunning plan for independence and finance it and get behind it you are living in a fantasy world.
Become a member of the SNP and fucking change it stop bitching about it and crying into your tea ffs
If you are a member what the fuck are you doing about it
Jeezo peeps!
The Rev provides links in his articles. You click on them to find out what’s there!
https://twitter.com/indyscotparty/status/1259138624693690369
A new Party? Read the online posts on the subject in The National, and weep.
Cancelled my SNP membership on Thursday. Really want to vote for another indy party and the Independence for Scotland Party (ISP), if they stand on the list for Lothian, will get my vote. Of course we could have more than one indy list party and as long as they are pro indy and support women, we could vote for them too, as our voting system allows. We could be spoilt for choice. 😉
That utter reprobate’s got pronouns AND Gaelic in his bio, sheesh he’ll go far!
I have cancelled my SNP membership. Cameron – mammoth whale bragging on Twitter that he and his woke pals from Stirling Uni had Rev banned from twitter was the last straw for me. My vote is going to the new Independence party.
Sturgeon,shot by both sides??
From Facebook, “Marja Nieminen? to Celtic Union”.
FULL TEXT: Independence for Scotland Party launches ahead of 2021 election
A NEW pro-independence party has launched with plans to run for regional list seats at next year’s Holyrood election.
The Independence For Scotland Party (ISP) will be run by Colette Walker, who last year ran for the SNP women’s convener position.
The position was won by Glasgow councillor Rhiannon Spear who signed the Out For Independence pledge, while Walker signed an alternative Women’s Pledge.
The disability rights activist’s new party made an announcement on Twitter this afternoon.
The team’s plans were revealed by pro-indy Twitter account @daTARTANSPARTAN.
She said: “Hi guys, I am so excited to share some good news with you. A few of us have been working one establishing a new Scottish independence party since last autumn.
“And I am delighted to announce that we have been formally approved by the Electoral Commission.
“Please bear with us over the next few weeks as we navigate how to launch a new party in these times of coronavirus.
“And please have patience while we get our website up and running.”
She said the group would do their best to answer people’s questions in the meantime.
On Twitter, Walker posted: “Just for the record, we are not going against the SNP, we are only putting candidates forward for regional list seats, I would seriously hope Nicola and I would want a majority of Indy MSP’s in Holyrood in 2021.”
A recent YouGov poll suggested the SNP are on track to gain a majority at the Scottish Parliament election next year, with 54% of people saying they plan to vote for Nicola Sturgeon’s party as their first vote, and 45% said they’d back them in the regional list vote.
Disagreements within the SNP over the indyref2 strategy and (currently postponed) GRA reform proposals have led some to suggest new a new pro-independence party could join the Greens in Holyrood as a challenger.
The ISP announcement comes after blogger Wings Over Scotland last year announced his plans to create a new political party to challenge the SNP at Holyrood.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18438341.independence-scotland-party-launches-ahead-2021-election/
At last. A list party to keep the SNP honest in their approach to indy.
To coin a phrase ‘ur ye ragin’ SNP?
If the SNP are committed to independence then they should swing behind, vote ISP, on the list to reduce unionist seats.
We all know they wont.
And the morons keep posting, ” I am throwing my toys out the pram and resigning my membership from the SNP” and then what the fuck are you going to do ?
If you are on the winning side all be it a very poorly directed one why the hell would you shoot yourself in the foot when you want our country to be independent ?
I truly dont understand this mentality, I do understand the frustration and the lack of leadership but please please tell me your cunning plan to independence, a party who command the popular vote of 60% of the population who dont read the shite on social media but genuinely like the thought of independence and the pedants on here think it’s great to pull down the walls,I despair, do you want independence or not?
Andrew @ 10:27
We can vote for two parties, you fucking moron.
Personally, I won’t ever give the Greens my second vote again. They are a shower of sleekit creepy weirdos and Harvie is a horrible wee bigot.
Edit: We can now vote for three parties, Andrew.
Put the rights and safety of women and children first, Andrew.
And just read a few more posts, I truly rest my case, if you want independence get behind the majority party and change it, stop grandstanding with ” I’ve resigned my membership” bullshit, fucking well be pro active and fix from within, if all the woke wankers can do it surely some intelligent people who truly want independence can change the party from within.
The @FOWingsScot twitter account now has 1,529 followers. That’s after 24 hrs, but it was ‘launched’ late last night and only had a couple of hundred this morning.
The very first comment was a simple ‘welcome’ (made by someone we all know but who must remain nameless!) – it received 333 likes, 184 retweets and 25 comments.
If you’ve ever had anything to do with Twitter then you’ll know how remarkable those numbers are.
The usual Yoon suspects will be spitting feathers!
This has been a gooood day.
😉
Sums are clearly not the strong point of some on here.
Only party that can win a majority and will win a majority are the SNP.
If you join or get behind the party you can make changes and get the outcome we all want.
I am quite aware of how many parties are in the Scottish parliament but the greens are a bunch of self serving arseholes who command less than 2% of the vote, contribute nothing and use there “Scottish ” credentials to contribute nothing to our society.
And, I may be out of touch but who the fuck is the third party I am meant vote for on the list ?
@Andrew Gordon –
Your anger is justified.
The problem is that these wokeists cannot and will not change. They just don’t ‘do’ debate or discussion of any kind. Period.
They’ve long-since got their feet under the table and appear to have the support of the SNP hierarchy.
How can grass-roots members get shot of these characters when they already dominate the party executive?
Its a nightmarish Catch-22.
Colette Walker was a fellow member at Eastwood SNP, though I left last year so not seen her for a while. She’s registered blind I think, with a disabled son too, if memory serves. She will be a great voice, not only for women but for disabled rights too. Will definitely get my second vote. As for who gets my first, that is very much up in the air. If the SNP candidate chosen for Eastwood signs the SNP Women’s pledge then I will likely vote for them. If they don’t, then I am likely to spoil my constituency paper for the first time ever.
Become a member of the SNP and fucking change it stop bitching about it and crying into your tea ffs
If you are a member what the fuck are you doing about it
Andrew Gordon, there is very little ordinary members can do. The leadership has barricaded themselves in at the top and their gatekeepers are good. It seems to be near impossible to get past them; I’m an ex-member of a branch which has been trying for years. Too much unaccountability, committees which ignore emails and messages (and you can’t complain because they police themselves, i.e. ignore you), procedures which render it impossible to challenge anything.
They tell you any member can put forward a motion for change, but in practice you’ll never penetrate the shield that protects them and their ideology, unless you have the right connections. Most grassroots members don’t. All that’s effectively available to any member to make any kind of stance is to quit.
Is anyone really naive enough to suppose we can get independence WITHOUT the power that the SNP wants? That’s how politics works. That’s how reform comes about. There is no magic. Either you get the effective political power or your cause is going nowhere. That is realpolitik. That is what appears to be a total mystery to a disturbing number of people in the Yes movement.
This reaction from some is to be welcomed. They’ve become far too certain of themselves and of our votes. Others, who for a while have been saying to people like me that our views are not wanted and to leave if unhappy, might soon get their wish. Though the SNP will still take most votes, at least to begin with, hopefully with enough support or publicity and if people stick with whichever party is established, it might manage to inflict enough of a blow to give them serious pause for thought. The Neal Hanvey victory was a good stand to have taken and example to follow.
For those suggesting we should join or rejoin SNP to change party direction, it isn’t always that easy and wasn’t even when Salmond was leader and forced through the NATO support against a lot of opposition. Then many folk understood it to be a tactical move looking for more of a world view in lead up to referendum decision, but that effort didn’t help us at all during the referendum and has landed the party with it as their policy. Given things are worse now with McDonald and some others who seem gung-ho to support Israel and America to a far greater degree than then looks like we’re stuck with it. Good luck on changing that far less GRA.
It’s only when people feel they’re not listened to within an organisation and their views are unwelcome that they start complaining outside of it or feel reduced to impotently writing to the FM in complaint as a last resort. After that they leave. Good luck getting them to go back after that. The one big difference I see between Salmond and Sturgeon in leadership is he took her as his deputy when she sometimes disagreed with him, it was said at the time she was one of the few who could. She hasn’t promoted anyone like that and seems to dislike criticism and deal with it shortly from within the party. That’s a great personality flaw and I feel has led to all of the errors she has made.
Said it before… the british secret service infiltrated , Influenced and split the IRA at its highest levels.
They have thus far stopped the ira reaching its goal of a united ireland.
They are doing the same to the SNP. Unless we act they will prevent Independence.
The current SNP leadership was helped into power by mi5 . They will cause the party to split when we get close to an independence vote.
Its happening g now.
Those of us who have witnessed sturgeons rise through the ranks and current position of power, see a sinister route to the top.
Unless we ditch the current careerist brigade and get pro indy people in charge, THEY will lose us or chance of independence.
The ISP, Andrew.
May I suggest that you read up o the D’Hondt variation used in Holyrood, Andrew?
Andrew Gordon says:
9 May, 2020 at 11:16 pm
Sums are clearly not the strong point of some on here.
———–
The sums have been done to death past couple of years. There’s room for a indy party on the list vote that protects women’s rights, no matter their persuasion!
Vote SNP on main vote
Vote Indy list party on the list vote, simple.
If greens want the list votes then they need to protect women’s rights. Lets see shall we.!
Scottish National Party’s first president, Robert Bontine Cunninghame Graham, from 1930:
“The enemies of Scottish nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls.
Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination.”
Was going to say that quote from Cunninham Graham would be a good one for the bio on the FoW twitter page.
Some dude was Cunninghame Graham,
https://tinyurl.com/ycbjp8ky
He was a Liberal Party Member of Parliament ;
the first ever socialist member of the Parliament of the United Kingdom;
a founder, and the first president, of the Scottish Labour Party;
a founder of the National Party of Scotland in 1928;
and the first president of the Scottish National Party in 1934.
“Peter A Bell says:
9 May, 2020 at 11:20 pm
Is anyone really naive enough to suppose we can get independence WITHOUT the power that the SNP wants? That’s how politics works. That’s how reform comes about. There is no magic. Either you get the effective political power or your cause is going nowhere. That is realpolitik. That is what appears to be a total mystery to a disturbing number of people in the Yes movement.”
Simply Peter, no, I don’t know of *anyone* who is.
A list party with independence as it’s first priority, and with members in Holyrood actively working to secure a route – by using the “realpolitik” of influence (pressure, numbers, votes – you know precisely what I’m talking about as it’s the opposite of what the SNP did in the last WM parliamentary term) – is what many want.
It’s their democratic right to be able to vote for a party that represents their wishes, and if one forms and proposes to stand it should be applauded for it’s efforts.
It seems to me that there are many who are now critical of the SNP, which is a welcome progression from the fanclub mentality, but are still far too comfortable with being part of an election winning machine to recognise that it’s not their way or the highway!
Just my observations based on what Peter had posted, but not aimed at him or anyone else specifically 🙂
Really,a few descent comments on my contributions but the arrogance on here of peoples knowledge is dumbfounding, I bloody well know how my parliament works, I dont need some muppet to tell my how the voting system works, I dont really appreciate idiots telling me I dont understand the transgender issue, I abhore the new legistalion that is trying to get forced through, women’s rights are being subjugated by a truly awful piece of legislation if it is allowed to go through, and that neatly brings me back to SNP activists holding the government to account, dont tell me you have no voice, make it heard and embarrass the clowns who think they know best, if you want an antagonist on your side give me a call, people listen when you pose the right embarrassing questions..Nobody likes bad PR
What I find strange is the BritNat party supporters will (and have) used their vote tactically to keep out independence party politicians, they did it in 2017 & 2019, probably also on the list options in 2016. But somehow it is just not cricket for the independence movement to use the same tactics, our vote has to be pure.
I have never voted Green, I just don’t suit sackcloth and sandals, and never will. Effectively my second vote is wasted as I can only vote SNP and they will not win any regional seats in my area unless there is a total collapse in their constituency vote, that would require a resurrection for James Kelly, an event that would be a bigger than Lazarus.
Get tae yer bed. Andrew.
“Does anyone still think the current SNP care about independence, rather than power?”
Only a fool thinks that they care about Independence at all now. The careerist will mouth the right drivel at certain times to keep the electorate blind and deaf to their anti Indy agenda. I have no time for such careerists. I hesitate to call such creepy political careerists fools though. Well it pays well if you get a safe seat. Scottish Nationalists they are not and haven’t been so for years.
Andrew Gordon
Why do we have to give you a call for help? If you hate the proposed legislation as much as us and realise the damage it will do not only to women’s rights but potentially to independence, why aren’t you speaking out and embarrassing those folk now to get them to stop? Why haven’t you done this already? If you have such a ready solution to being a successful champion of women and their rights why haven’t you been successful already? Either you’re making this offer now only to stop voters leaving the SNP or you have tried already and been no more successful than anyone else.
Either way your post is not helpful to us, but another party might be.
I am genuinely confused. If another indy party is to get the 2nd vote and increases Holyrood intentions above the current 70% and the electorate wanting independence remains mainly the same how does that change anything?
@ Polly
Thank you and well said – that is exactly what I was thinking as I read Andrew’s post.
Andrew Gordon @11.55
.. short of forming a secret society, dedicated to overthrowing the worst of the Wokesters and Fifth Columnists, at SG Constituency selection/de-selection level, or failing that bumping them off.
What can be done at grass-roots level within the SNP between now and what could and should be the INDEPENDENCE ELECTION to ensure that it is the independence election?
I would say – Shut your eyes, cross your fingers and pray for a Palace Revolution. – You could always try to push the Wokie candidates down the regional pecking order – You will win the Margo McDonald memorial trophy if you succeed with that one.
Me I’ll be trying to see that the ISP or who ever is the front-runner of the pure of heart, List Only Contenders, gets as many of the List votes as possible.
How to maximise the Scots Indy vote
http://www.SIRP.Scot
Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party
SNP voters can vote ‘first’ choice for SNP on the ballot paper, and then vote ‘second’ choice for Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party.
Result = no ‘wasted’ second-votes
“mark whittet says:
10 May, 2020 at 2:35 am
How to maximise the Scots Indy vote
http://www.SIRP.Scot
Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party
SNP voters can vote ‘first’ choice for SNP on the ballot paper, and then vote ‘second’ choice for Scotland’s Independence Referendum Party.
Result = no ‘wasted’ second-votes”
Now if the SNP can give me an actual Scot Nat who believes in Scots Indy to vote for in the Constituency Vote then I might be able to leave the nose peg at home next year assuming the Tory Plague doesn’t get me before that.
I know who I would like but I wont name him for the agents of English Tory Rule will make sure he never gets the nod as a candidate. It would be folly to name actual believers in Scots Indy.
Fifth column indeed. The SNP needs a clear out but I don’t think the hierarchy have the will to do it, they’re happy with things as they are.
This new party sounds promising, hope they can stand for the list in my area.
Aweright, just thought I’d come in and say hi groovy people.
Ah’ve had ah really guid night, how you doin’?
It and both we continues…
The Fifth Element, like
Cheers Rev.
X
@ Andrew Gordon:
A lot of strong and abusive comments directed at other posters on here, it’s almost as if your contempt for other opinions were a mirror image of some of the current MP’s, MSP’s and SNP activists, attitude to people who don’t agree entirely with them.
You say you disagree with a few SNP policies, so how come I’ve never heard of you before?
Let me answer the last question for you;
An individual trying to change the behaviour of an organised group who doesn’t want to change has very little chance of doing so.
What is needed is a large organised group who will get media publicity, and will be able to attract disappointed ex SNP members and activists and supporters (there’s many of them and their numbers are growing because of the behaviour of the current SNP Leadership)
What you are really asking people to do is keep behaving like an obedient little sheep, like you are doing, which the SNP has been banking on for the past few years.
You sound like the smoker who hates to see others quitting and keeps offering them a fag because you can’t bear to see others having the balls to actually get off their ass and do something, instead of carping and wining from the sidelines, pretending to yourself that you are making one iota of difference.
No mate, you keep following the current leadership while your concerns are being completely ignored, like an obedient little sheep, then when they need your vote to keep them all in the very comfortable lifestyle they have become accustomed to, they will invite you into getting another ‘shearing’, then you can go back to trudging around in your own shit on the side of some hill, while they live it up in their fat cat, paid for, homes.
And keep telling yourself how better you are than everybody else, and how you are perfectly entitled to tell others how they must behave and how you have every right to abuse people if they are not responding to concerns about the SNP, in the same manner as you.
Sheesh!
The main opponents of an ISP are unionists. Winning list seats is the only way most Tories can get elected. That was true of Ruth Davidson in Edinburgh, but the Greens split the cobstituency vote allowing RD to gain a small majority. Apart from promoting the most virulent misogynistic policies, the Greens are hopelessly naive. Independence is not their first priority.
A second list party for independence would even up the score. Unionists have three to choose from. Has that hurt the unionist tactical vote?
SNP – Vote for us and we will get you Indy
First 56 Mps
Then 35
Then 48 and achieved diddlysquat except.
Stab supporters in the back at the behest of Unionist media whilst saying nothing about them.
Stab Former Leader in the Back.
Let a load of anti Women rights supporters manage the Party.
Follow UK Scientific advice on the Pandemic and treat Adults like children whilst other EU Countries have done so much better with grown up policies.
Get my vote again ? That will be shining bright- they can f**k off
I despair at how many on here, unwittingly or worse wittingly are contributing to the forces of British Nationalism.
To those suggesting we must stick with the SNP, I might paraphrase the late (and great) Jimmy Reid;
I didn’t leave the SNP, the SNP left me.
And seriously, that is how I and many former members feel right now. They have become dirven by a bunch of careerist woke bros and incels, who do not have independence as their objective. If you seriously believe Scottish independence is essential for Scotland, then surely when in power (as the SNP are), you would use every single effing day to pursue that objective. It should be your number 1 priority.
But, the current SNP leadership has done literally nothing, NOTHING, to advance independence since coming to power. She won’t even attend independence marches, yet still turns up at marches down in London.
I remained faithful for years, because I genuionely believed that somebody who had worked as Salmond’s deputy would be working hard for independence, but time ran out. Sitting back and moaning (but DOING nothing) when Scotland was forcibly dragged out of the EU against its wishes by England (for that IS what happened) was the last straw. We all know it, we all felt it.
Time after time after time, NS and the SNP have had one golden chance after another to push independence, and at every single occasion they did nothing.
Folk will say, but look, the SNP are riding high in the polls, but I think it is a mixed message. I personally know folk who like NS because she does a good job at running Scotland (which she does), but their support is conditional upon her never pursuing independence. Hell would freeze over before they would vote for independence. The SNP’s high position in the polls is based upon folk thinking she isn’t going to go for independence anytime soon.
For the last four years, we have had the most divided, incompetent, despised Tory Government (and opposition) in living history, and seen Scotland ignored at every single level. Yet NOT ONCE have the SNP tried to push independence. This despite record electoral mandates to do so. Instead all we have had are false promises, and the wittering of ‘we need to see how bexit unfolds’ or ‘we need London’s permission’ to hold a referendum, or ‘we need to see consistent polling favour of independence’.
A reasonable person might think they are feart.
THAT is NOT leadership. It is pathetic.
I am so bitterly, bitterly dissappointed in NS. As I have posted before, I was at the Hydro in Glasgow cheering her on, when she took over (remember that? remember how good we all felt?), now I just don’t know. I really do not think independence is important to her at all. It really is so f****ing sad.
I wouldn’t give my vote to the new party. My mum worked her backside grafting for the snp in 2017 when she had an aggressive cancer. One of the women involved in setting up the new party has never spoken to my mum but blocked her on twitter. Probably due to some very nasty lies that were being spread about us at that time. Am I going to vote for someone who is part of a very nasty clique on there? Absolutely not. You get involved with nasty gossip about me and my family? You stand in my area and you won’t get my vote. Both votes snp for me. Or snp one and green 2. Who is going to fund this party? What are their policies? Will there be an inevitable crowdfund?
Even Pete Bell thinks this is a terrible idea
Who else is going to stand for them? The last time I looked people can do what they like. If people want to vote for this new party then fill your boots. But if others don’t want to they don’t want to.
They don’t need to be grilled over it or asked to justify why they don’t. They risk splitting the vote as far as I can see and as I said above. I’m not a fan of block happy people who are pals with the horrors in Indy.
I hope they disappear up their own backside quite frankly.
@ Golfnut.
I’m a Nicola supporter, she is a brilliant First Minister and has done much for our nation both socially and internationally, and I won’t be resigning my membership.
Having said that like many on here I am very concerned at what’s happening within the party, wokeism and the Gra, the lack of initiatives to take Independence forward (I was gobsmacked that the Constitutional Sovereignty of the Scottish people hasn’t already been invoked) and of course the conspiracy from within the party against AS are the three issues which require to be urgently addressed.
When Rev Stu proposed the set up of a list party for the 2021 HR elections I among many heartily supported the idea,and still do, in fact more than ever. I can’t think of a better way of culling the Britnats in our parliament nor can I think of a better way of kicking the party’s arse into action on Independence and clearing out the dross and hangers on within the SNP. The party needs a clear message, get yer finger out.
So I will vote SNP constituency and the Independence Party list.
That’s the way to go, SNP first then Independence Party vote, the only thing it’s the wrong name, Scotland is already independent we’re in a union with three other independent country’s, and if it starts getting popular they’ll change the voting system before the next election, if that happens then you’ll realise we’ve all been conned by the SNP.
@ Andrew Gordon
I don’t doubt that grassroots have already tried to influence from within and been met with a brick wall. The simple fact is current SNP hierarchy is full of gradualists, those soft on independence, and dare I say, those who are happy with the constitutional status quo. Grassroots have no chance to break through.
The only ‘gig in town’ mantra to achieve independence carries it’s own risks, not least the apparent stench of complacency. I honestly think the SNP could face a re-run of 2017 with a large chunk of SNP voters staying at home – people don’t like being taken for mugs.
A second independence list party might be enough to get those scunnered voters out. And while in the booth they might just vote for SNP for the constituency, if they think there’s a chance of list seats being picked up by a second independence party to hold the SNPs feet to the fire.
The main take home message is, please don’t tell people there is only one party that can achieve independence when that party is doing the square root of hee-haw to achieve it. It’s human nature to look elsewhere, or other routes to achieve your goal when the only gig in town is not playing to the same tune.
The Sturgeon Judases paid on silver denarii.
The first thing NS needs to do after this crisis is over is have a grown up conversation with us, the Scottish people, about independence. She seems to like that sort of thing.
The election next year is a good chance for her. Let’s see.
@Andrew Gordon
Were you the one who stopped Nicola from phone Patrick Harvie after last Holyrood election to even discuss a confidence and supply agreement? Is the term ‘coalition government’ foreign to you?
I grew up in NZ and since we the people forced the politicians to change to a PR system (MMR, like Scotland but with a single national List) coalition governments have been the norm and it has resulted in a number of very good governments with broad support. Helen Clarke led a Labour coalition for over a decade and it was a good stable government.
I detect in your posts a fear that Sturgeon being utterly feart over Indy and folk reacting as you bemoan is actually hurting the party. I think that is good because it might focus minds. I used to give my List vote to the Greens but no more.
As for us not being able to do sums that 54% means pretty much ever region the SNP will have divisors on the List of 10 or more. Meaning the SNP need 10X the votes of the Unionist parties to get a List seat. There is NO point voting SNP on the List. Even if Sturgeon sees sense and calls the List Vote as an Indyref providing you vote for an Indy party it won’t matter who you vote for.
I have an honours degree and a PhD in Physiology which is very numerate science. Don’t you try and tell me how to do sums chum. Take off your yellow tinted glasses and smell the roses.
I predict iScotland will be like most Social Democratic Northern European countries and have stable coalition government as the norm. I look forward to it. Oh and a warning parties which cock a snook at the very idea of coalitions and try and demand majorities from the voters tend to get punished for their arrogance at the polls. I’ve seen it happen.
Be VERY careful what you wish for.
For everybody saying “If you do this then bad things will happen”. I think you’re going to have to come up with something a bit more constructive than simple fear-mongering. We’ve got plenty of yoons for that already. Get in the queue.
In case you hadn’t noticed plenty of bad things have already happened this year. Nothing but hot air and “Yes sir, Boris, sir.”
So what if the vote is split. It’s not like the country was on the cusp of independence anyways. Five years of golden opportunities, five years wasted.
This is an idea that’s got to be tried. We’ll know next year whether this is going to be way of getting some movement. So 12 months or so burned until the next election to find out if this is the dramatic push that will get us closer to freedom seems like time and money well spent.
How do you know the new Independence party wont maintain affiliations with the SNP? Perhaps set up to deny votes to Wings party? And the mention of the Greens? The Green party everywhere are compromised and a threat to humanity.
@ Dog biscuit.
‘ the Sturgeon Judases paid on silver dinari ‘
What does that mean, is Sturgeon a Judas or is she paying judases?
Oh dear Puppy Biscuit is feeling neglected and needs some attention.
Who a good puppy, then? Who’s a good boy? You are. Go fetch the ball, puppy. Fetch, fetch.
There, feeling better now?
The political incompetents launching a new indy party should refer what happened to rise which left wing media commentators argued would storm home on the list system.
Usual double standards by BBC Radio Scotland this morning felt obliged to point out that Blair Jenkins headed the Yes campaign, which was over 5 years ago, on his Covid19 experience.. Yet no mention of Hugh Pennington’s more recent political activities when attacking Scots Gov.
They then describe The National as being hostile to Uk Gov but Unionist papers are never described as being anti Scottish self government.
Meanwhile worth reading the excellent Prof John Roberton at talkingupreminders / talkingupscotlandtwo.com
on tax affairs of the owners of the Skye Care Home that failed inspection reports. Also worth looking up the main shareholder Dr Chai Patel involvement in Labour’s cash for peerages scandal.
A lot of people who want To end the Union are not SNP supporters but they have no other choice but to vote for the SNP, which they have for most of their lives but it’s not getting them anywhere near where they want to be, not a bit of fight during the Brexit fiasco nae wonder people are fed up with the SNP, at least another party will stir things up and push in a different way from the SNP.
Robert Roddik You dont think First Minister bears responsibility for any breakdown in morale?
It would seem that Microsoft news feed only recognises one ‘newspaper’ in Scotland – the Daily Record.
Right enough there aren’t many newsworthy publications in Scotland but you’d think that Microsoft would vary the unionist crap it heralds as news.
So, sorry I’m confused (at my age it doesn’t take much I admit) but this isn’t the Rev’s talked about Party is it.
So does this mean he won’t need to launch one?
Or is it the case the more Indy parties the better for getting List seats?
Stuart MacKay your politcal insight is invaluable to this site. With polital giants like you around Scotland is in appropriate hands.
Golfnut,both
A Dog biscuit.
Just throwing shit then.
The SNP sallies forth a small’Independence’ party to soak up dissaffected votes? Im not saying Im right I just wonder if ….
I’m not sure if I’m happy about this new party, I’m certainly not against it in principle, but I think to be successful it needs a big hitter to lead it someone like Alex Salmond, I mean no disrespect to Victoria & Collette, I admire their tenacity and willingness to have a go and I wish them all the luck in the world but I’m not sure they have the political or public profile to pull it off I hope I’m wrong.
If the SNP aren’t happy about it then they only have themselves to blame, they created this party, how long do they think indy supporters were going to put with their shite, they’ve squandered the best opportunity we’ve had for independence in over 300 years, mandate after mandate ignored, spent 2 years or more fighting tooth and nail to deny England what they voted for instead of fighting for what Scotland voted for, they have betrayed all of us and they’ll reap what they sow
The Scottish People’s Front or the Popular Front for Scotland ?
Holyrood is a colonial parliament. It is a unionist construct to buy off our politicians and so prevent independence.
Every politician that believes the people of Scotland are sovereign should not serve in a subservient colonial parliament.
They should reject vows to the Empress.
No more stupid games of fingers crossed.
This is not a game.
We are in a political cold war where the British Empire is trying to destroy Scotland and make it North GB.
Interesting that Peter Bell who has been slagging the SNP for years. Who has spoken at AUOB marches about their lack of action on Independence is now defending the SNP. Obviously Peter was comfortable with the direction of travel after all!
Aye, close down Holyrood. Alister Jack steps in and says “I’ll run the show.”
Lots of SNP supporters piling on this new party, it’s a sort of how dare they try and move in on our territory (it’s the same thoughts Labour still have about the SNP), they will crash and burn. If that’s their belief then why the explosion of negativity.
Personally I’ll wait for their policy and candidates or wait to see if they are the only one to emerge.
They are being compared to RISE but RISE were too left wing for many supporters, sort of Greens with an larger twist of independence.
If the SNP are just short of a majority who would you want as their supporting party, the Greens and their fixation with GRA and destroying any production base, or a party with independence as its core principle.
I was under the impression that you couldn’t be
A member of 2 political parties at one time?
Has Colette Walker resigned from the SNP recently
In order to head up this new party?
Will she be recruiting the SNP activists that fell short
Of selection to potentially hold list seats?
Will the new party just do what SNP leader tells them or
would they bite against GRA?
Is this SNP’s idea to stop a Wings Party or dilute one?
If SNP continue in the current form that is splitting the membership
Right Left and Centre I’d give an Independence List Party my First Vote
and SNP second to express my disappointment in them.
Just caught up with the FoW Twitter site. Well done everyone involved and I have put in on my bookmarks bar.
The fear is palpable in those who thought by getting rid of the Rev’s Twitter that we would all go away and shut up. No chance. The new party seems a real opportunity – Indy women speaking for Indy women but yet the wokies still think it shouldn’t exist!
It is all getting exciting again.
@ Graeme at 10.06: I share your concerns about the ISP. My support for a second independence party is conditional on it being sufficiently resourced in personnel, personality, abilities and finance. I don’t know who is involved with this party apart from the name of Colette Walker who can be googled.
I do not want a split in the independence movement – that would be seized on by the opposition, of course. I would like this party to help strengthen the chances of regaining independence but it will be difficult.
I don’t think the SNP has “betrayed” us. People like Joanna Cherry and Philippa Whitford wouldn’t stay quiet if that had been the case. They have huge integrity, energy and ability, in my opinion so I trust them. At the moment Joanna Cherry is suggesting a possible court case but not demanding it immediately.
Andrew Gordon 10.43
I have cancelled my SNP membership because I am not giving money to a party that isn`t actively fighting for independence and seems at times to be doing everything it can to hamper it. After thirty years that is not something I have done lightly.
But I will of course always vote SNP, certainly until a more vibrant committed party emerges.
jfngw@10:21am:
Indeed. Lots of energy expended very quickly to try and put off those behind this new party.
Why, if it’s so hopeless?
The other line of argument is that it “dilutes” the vote somehow. But if the new party is going to be so hopeless, how would it do that? Can’t be both quite successful and hopeless at the same time.
At the end of the day, folk can just vote for whoever they want and the best advice is always to make that vote be for the party whose policies you like best and fuck all the “sums”. You can’t control what other people vote for anyway, so vote what you believe in as the only bit you can control.
As for the SNP, the easiest way to ensure no voter leakage is to give folk what you promised them in the first place. If folk feel you didn’t do this, that’s your issue and not theirs.
Effijy says:
10 May, 2020 at 10:27 am
I was under the impression that you couldn’t be
A member of 2 political parties at one time?
Erm she’s not a MSP or MP. She can be a member of any political party she wants in the world! Effigy.
Brexit destroys the legal conditions of the British union. Trans-activism is incompatible with democracy. So the SNP can no longer be consider a party that supports constitutional democracy. They should more properly be considered a party of parochial fuckwits.
@Effigy
You don’t get a second list vote at the Scottish Elections, one constituency vote and one regional list vote.
The SNP supports trans-ideology but not Treaty law, so it is hard to believe the party actually supports democracy.
It’s deluded, selfish, idiots like Declan who have destroyed the party, along with the party management’s ignorance/hostility towards the rule-of-law.
Understanding Gender: Some Implications for Science and Technology
https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:433323/FULLTEXT01.pdf
@robbo
You cannot be a SNP member and stand against them, it’s in their rules of membership.
b)contest, or declare an intention to contest, any parliamentary or local government election except as an authorised Party candidate;
(c)be a member of a political party expected to contest elections in opposition to the Party
@johnny
I used to vote Labour (before 1992) with the sole intent to keep out the Tories, it was never a good reason to vote for a party. Then on some TV programme (probably QT, it was a long time ago) someone from the audience commented ‘why don’t those Scots stop whinging and take responsibility for themselves’ (not an exact quote but you get the drift). I agreed and decided that from then on I would vote for a party that wanted Scotland to take control of its own destiny.
Now I feel I’m voting SNP merely to keep out the BritNat parties with the idea of independence just being that, an idea never a reality.
@ Robert Louis at 7:54 am
And
Pauline Boyd at 8:10 am
I agree
I have had a Road to Damascus Moment well did nave , I will not vote for anyone who is untrustworth or a chancer, if the party promote such a person, to be a candidate then I asumme they are in complete knowledge of the “character flaws” Lying to the electorate.
I cannot vote for the current MP and MSP in my constituence.That in turn means I can’t vote for the sNP.
I have a problem, BUT if I voted for the SNP that reflects in my principals.
If anyone thinks the SNP can be changed at branch level, I’d suggest you’re mistaken
A new party? a little to late , plus you’re looking at Brexit Party type funding
The only option is A.Salmond and J.Cherry plus a few others, Sturgeon ,Murrell MacDonald and Smith and the like need binned
Alec Lomax
said: “Aye, close down Holyrood. Alister Jack steps in and says “I’ll run the show.”
I never said “close it down”.
Empty seats in a colonial parliament speaks more eloquently than colonial administrator MSPs, that the people of Scotland will not accept anything less than a real parliament representing and exercising Scottish sovereignty.
Alec Lomax says:
10 May, 2020 at 10:18 am
Aye, close down Holyrood. Alister Jack steps in and says “I’ll run the show.”
If Holyrood is content to abdicate the sovereignty of Scotland’s national constitution in lieu of the constitution written by Westminster for a devolved assembly, (the Scotland Act), then Holyrood open or closed amounts to the same thing… rule by Westminster and subjugation of Scottish Sovereignty.
Tories or Wokists running the show to suit themselves? Wow. Spoiled for choice. Fk it. I stand by Scotland’s National Constitution. The people are sovereign. Holyrood can stand by the Nation’s constitution, or Holyrood can go and fk itself.
They seem to have made their choice. The SNP is just window dressing for Scotland’s colonial subjugation. At least Alister Jack is honest about being an enemy of Scotland and subverter of our rights and his.
jfngw says:
10 May, 2020 at 11:01 am
@johnny
I used to vote Labour (before 1992) with the sole intent to keep out the Tories, it was never a good reason to vote for a party.
Now I feel I’m voting SNP merely to keep out the BritNat parties with the idea of independence just being that, an idea never a reality.
Yip, me too. Voted Labour back in the day to keep out the Tories and as you say, feels like voting SNP now just to keep out the Britnat parties rather than being hell bent of independence.
They are not going to close Holyrood, their intention is to reign it in, reduce it the talking shop assembly they always wanted it to be. The cost to them of keeping it open is nothing in the scheme of things.
Want they want is for Scotland to demand its closure, they hope making it ineffective will achieve this goal, 25% voted against it (I suspect this is now mostly the Tory vote).
My feeling is if the Britnats get a hold of power at Holyrood they will hasten its demise, many have already shown their contempt for the place, they will gladly accept the Queens/Kings shilling for services rendered.
All I want is for someone in authority to defend my human rights, but contemporary British constitutionalism and trans-ideology are incompatible with Global Health Law and international human rights law. The SNP appears to clearly lack knowledge of the ‘piece of resistance’ it needs to find in order to protect Scotland from expansionist English nationalism.
Without a legal respect for Natural Law and biology, the SNP will continue to fail dismally at defending Scotland.
Global Health Law: A Definition and Grand Challenges
https://academic.oup.com/phe/article/1/1/53/1415563
When the full impact of the economic damage due to lockdown strikes could independence support decline? Will we be sticking with nannie for FEAR of finding something worse?
Global nannie and her team of ‘experts’ landed us all in this mess but that is being air brushed from the picture. A great lie is being spun.
Such is the anaesthetising potency of FEAR, and the money being poured into the maw of the slave media by government.
The economic consequences of COVID-19 is the real horror in the room few are prepared to even acknowledge. This is the beast with the potential to grind to dust many aspirations, as well as public faith in the current order.
That order is heading for extinction.
Changed times require new ideas, new politics, new politicians, new leadership.
jfngw says:
10 May, 2020 at 10:50 am
@robbosays:
10 May, 2020 at 10:50 am
@robbo
Yes i know that jfngw. She can drop her SNP membership at any time and immediately at anytime join any party she wants or wants to form. Obviously she would vote along her party lines.
I will 100% be voting for the SNP at future elections, but am up for having an independence list party, which I could definitely see myself voting for to get rid of hideous list msp’s like the “lock down breaker” Murdo Fraser!!
For anyone stressing about splitting the indy vote and not winning seats at Holyrood.
Let me explain:
Scotland can NEVER become independent via British “democracy”.
Under British democracy, UK Parliament would have to vote to give Scotland permission to become independent.
UK Parliament will NEVER do that. UK Parliament represents the interests of England and the British Empire.
Independence is impossible via the Scottish colonial parliament or UK Parliament.
Independence is impossible via British “democracy”.
So you can elect SNP, ISP, or nobody, it will make ZERO difference.
Ottomanboi:
Economy was likely to tank soon regardless, although Covid will have exacerbated it (shock to the system).
Case in point: the aviation industry is being held up as one decimated by Covid but some of the companies had already been begging for bailouts before it even hit.
Covid is going to get the whole blame, but most of the skulduggery which led to the crash of 2007/2008 had continued unabated anyway, and something was going to come along to derail everything at some point.
None of the forgoing detracts from your main point that the response needs to be discussed however….
Even Joanna Cherry fought her BJ prorogation case on the basis that UK Parliamentary sovereignty is the fundamental basis of the UK’s political system.
I’m now seriously considering ending my SNP membership after many years because of the increasing number of pronouncements like this. Too many people in comfy seats pushing anything but independence which is what I joined up for.
Even Joanna Cherry appears to view the world through the lens of British constitutional practice, which is detached from the Natural Law and incompatible with the principle of universal human rights. At least she doesn’t pander to gender-ideology, so that’s a start.
Global Health and the Law
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1314094
Holywood can go and fuck itself?
Empty seats in a colonial parliament?
And it’ll be replaced by ?
https://twitter.com/Zarkwan/status/1259426640662274049
So believe!
There are thousands to tell you it cannot be done,
There are thousands to prophesy failure,
There are thousands to point out to you one by one,
The dangers that wait to assail you.
But just buckle in with a bit of a grin,
Just take off your coat and go to it;
Just start in to sing as you tackle the thing
That “cannot be done,” and you’ll do it.
Over the last few years, I’ve been berated for suggesting NS is awaiting a HoL seat, along with hubbie. It has been clear they have abandoned the SNP core aim, indie. As a result, will not be surprised if they abandon that other tedious policy about accepting rewards from a grateful corrupting state.
Next year, despite despising the SNP “leadership”, will have no option but to vote for them but my list vote will go to a party which stands for independence.
The 3rd choice, spoiling the paper or not voting, cannot be risked let a unionist party wins the seat.
@ jfngw.
Your right of course, we don’t know what this new party will look like come voting day, but the reaction to its formation is interesting. On the one hand members who are like me furious at the inaction over Indy and the apparent infiltration of the party by the wokerati, the other sides apparent panic at its formation. I hope that panic gets through to the SNP hierarchy, because sitting on their hands allowing the wokeists to damage the damage tge party unhindered is just not on. The attack on AS was unforgivable.
Powerful Tweet-action from Joanna Cherry –
https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1259446614663532546
At last, senior fightback against the misogyny of trans-activism, which harms the potential for social justice.
The Lancet Commission on Global Health Law: How Law Can Advance The Right To Health
https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20190430.743234/full/
Without a legal respect for biology and Natural Law, the SNP can not support democracy. Simples.
The global health law trilogy: towards a safer, healthier,
and fairer world
https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(17)31261-8.pdf
I personally don’t see the need for a new party when we already have a fully fledged pro indy party in the SSP.
The SSP have stated that they’ll be contesting every list seat for the 2021 Scottish general election.
Folk don’t have to like the SSP or their policies but, like any newly formed party, folk won’t be voting for them to form a govt.
They’d be voting for them to deny a Unionist MSP a list seat.
Alec Lomax
The goal is a parliament representing Scotland’s national sovereignty on behalf of the sovereign people of Scotland, independent of other states’ control.
That will require total rejection of the UK’s imperial political system.
So, it’s no about colonial parliament versus The Office of the Secretary State For Scotland as colonial administrators.
The SNP needs to find the ‘piece of resistance’ that will protect Scotland from authoritarian English nationalism. This might help them.
Human Rights Treaties Are an Important Part of the “International Health Instrumentariam”
Comment on “The Legal Strength of International Health Instruments – What It Brings to Global Health Governance?”
http://www.ijhpm.com/article_3422_71b860a04763d07ddcc20a20e3674092.pdf
Alec Lomax says:
10 May, 2020 at 11:59 am
Holywood can go and fuck itself?
Empty seats in a colonial parliament?
And it’ll be replaced by ?
A Scottish Parliament, but a true Parliament and seat of Scottish Government, and which does not consider the constitution of a devolved assembly as being the superior of the Nation’s Constitution, but instead, properly respects the lawful and legitimate sovereignty of the Scottish people… Something which the SNP does not, judging by their capitulation before Scotland’s unlawful and unconstitutional Brexit, contrary to the emphatic democratic will of the Sovereign Scottish people.
Better no “Scottish Government” at all than a gutless paper tiger which is complicit in the colonial subjugation of Scotland and the unlawful subversion of Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution.
“ Yet if he should give up what he has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own right and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King…
What is the SNP’s cowardly sophistry and capitulation over Brexit if it is not “seeking to make our Kingdom subject to the English?”
By rolling over to acquiesce to Brexit, and by deferring to the colonial constitution of Holyrood laid down by Westminster, Scotland’s SNP ”Government” is acting unconstitutionally by literal interpretation of the Declaration of Arbroath, which is unlawful, unconstitutional, and frankly inexcusable.
I’ll wait and see.
A few Twitter users does not a party make. And the spokesperson is completely unknown to me, so the accent is ‘interesting’. No idea who she is, but will have plenty of time to find out.
The easy answer will be to see if the Scottish and UK media attack them, along with the oddballs of Twitter. If they spend their time attacking their background, rather than their policies, you have your answer.
We have had Scottish,English and French politicians representing the SNP Scotland. I expect in the future we will have American, Polish, Pakistani and many other backgrounds. Very disappointing to hear the comments about the accent of a New Scot. The comments are more suited to Brexiteers.
Just like the DNC had ‘the goods’ on Sanders, someone has the goods on Sturgeon…….or her husband.
And to think we had such high hopes – how stupid were we
Can someone please re post the fowings twitter link, ta.
Maybe AS can start to warm up the big guns and go after the conspirators.
You accuse official members of the Scottish Government of being involved directly with the persecution of Alex Salmond but wont name any of them. Why? As far as Im aware the only official witnesses under legal protection from being revealed to public scrutiny are all civil servants not members of the SNP Government.
K1 @ 5.32 pm
Here’s the link to Friends of Wings twitter page ,
https://mobile.twitter.com/FOWingsScot/with_replies
Thanks Maggie 🙂
Robert Louis -very well said. as always. I was at Nicola’s gig at the Hydro too and can’t help but contrast the euphoria I felt then to how I feel now. If you’d told me then where the independence movement would be in 2020, I wouldn’t have believed you.
It’s naive to suggest individual members can change the direction of the party now. It needs a clear out at the top. I believe Colette Walker is a genuine person. She stood against the awful Rhiannon Spear for Women’s Officer and lost at the 5th count or so, despite getting most of the 1st preference votes. So she’s tried to change things, but has now left the party.
I almost left myself at that point. It was Nicola’s capitulation speech on 31 January that finished me off.
Julia Gibb – Yes, it’s interesting that Peter Bell is now slagging off the new party supporters and saying they no longer believe in independence. That accusation is better targeted. as always, at the upper echelons of the SNP.
@Julia Gibb
“We have had Scottish,English and French politicians representing the SNP Scotland. I expect in the future we will have American, Polish, Pakistani and many other backgrounds. Very disappointing to hear the comments about the accent of a New Scot.”
Who is she? What has she achieved? Who are her political allies? Who are her political enemies? Tommy Sheridan was Pro-Indy last time I looked. I don’t fancy his brand of politics. So not all Pro-Indy folk are folk with which I want to be associated, and I will not vote for them.
All we have is what she looks like, and how she sounds. Non-Twitter users will all react the same way. One can be po-faced about accents all day, or appreciate that when someone starts a ‘Scottish’ party, and doesn’t sound Scottish, more information is required.
Hence my comment, “No idea who she is, but will have plenty of time to find out.”
For all I know, based on her age, she’s a graduate who fancied a gap year to try out politics. Will she stay when the going gets tough (and it will)? Lots of pertinent questions, and really do want to see how things pan out, so am keeping my tinder dry for now.
More info required.
“You accuse official members of the Scottish Government of being involved directly with the persecution of Alex Salmond but wont name any of them. Why? As far as Im aware the only official witnesses under legal protection from being revealed to public scrutiny are all civil servants not members of the SNP Government.”
Then your awareness is faulty. ALL of the accusers are under an anonymity order.