The death of duopoly
The chief opponents of UK electoral reform are the Labour and Conservative parties, who by an astonishing coincidence are also the two parties who benefit by far the most from the undemocratic stitch-up that is First Past The Post, by which more than half of the votes cast in Britain result in no Parliamentary representation whatsoever.
The excuse they normally use to justify a system by which one of them will usually get a large absolute majority on barely over one-third of the votes cast is that FPTP produces “strong” governments, where “strong” is defined to mean “no possibility of the opposition, which speaks for two-thirds of the population, ever defeating the ruling party in a vote”.
The AV referendum was taken as a ringing endorsement of this principle, although in practice it offered just a bafflingly complicated and even less attractive version of the status quo. But a remarkable poll in Scotland this weekend (with detail published in today’s The National) shows that on one side of the border at least, FPTP has completely lost the support of the electorate.
The remarkable thing about the above findings isn’t that almost twice as many Scots (35% to 19%) want to see a Labour government at Westminster reliant on SNP votes as want Labour to have a majority, though that’s fairly astonishing in its own right in a country that until a few months ago had been solidly Labour for 60 years.
The real eye-opener is that 42% of respondents would prefer a coalition government at Westminster to EITHER of the two parties having unchallenged power, with just 32% wanting either Labour or the Tories to rule alone. (And almost as spectacularly, of those two options Labour only had 6% more backing than the Tories. Weirdly, a Tory minority at the mercy of the SNP seemingly wasn’t offered as an option.)
Having been relentlessly bombarded with the “strong governments” message for decades, and even despite the hideous experience of the current coalition, Scottish voters simply don’t trust either David Cameron or Ed Miliband with Scotland’s future. Having voted No to independence, they have no faith in the Unionist parties to deliver fairness and justice to Scotland. Which is kind of strange, if you think about it.
More and more, the result of the referendum looks like a temporary and conditional No at the most. In that context it’s perhaps not surprising that most Unionist politicians and commentators are so angrily and shoutily determined to assert that they won and that the matter is now settled forever.
Can we have a best out of three then ??
The FPTP system is a stinking carbuncle on the heart of democracy. It’s poison seeps into every aspect of our election process as Parties have to effectively play the system in order to win.
Once you start to win by playing the system it may become ever difficult to step back and implement a fairer, more inclusive and transparent system.
‘Temporary and conditional’.
Nice one. Brings us back to the pish which appeared on the front page of the Daily Record.
Where’s the paper trail? Who devised the wording of The Vow – where and when did the three amigos read the thing and give it the nod? Unless they did it all telepathically then the evidence must exist. Either that, or Murray Foote was given a wee ‘homer’ well above his pay-grade.
Feet to the fire? Who’s got the bellows?
It’s panto season.
When they say “they won and that the matter is now settled forever.”
We reply “oh no it isn’t”!
An amazing thing is that with a form of proportional representation, we have a SNP majority government; the very thing that PR was designed to prevent. We had justice, then that justice and the Sovereignty which is ours by constitutional right and which we actually had for 15 hours, was unjustly taken from us. O.k. a majority of 55% voted to give away our self-government, but they were unjustly bullied, threatened, lied to and had false promises made to them, so it was not a true “giving away” by the 55%. They were duped!
If Pro Scotland MPs hole the balance of power after May,even FPTP will give us a more just result than it’s designed to do.
Just wondering, if we have a Labour supported by SNP Government what happens when Labour need SNP votes to get through English/Welsh Legislation when SNP traditionally don’t vote on anything unless it affects Scotland.
“Weirdly, a Tory minority at the mercy of the SNP seemingly wasn’t offered as an option.”
Not that weird – it’s an SNP-commissioned poll!
Oh but Labour have told us that the SNP want a coalition with the Tories. Maybe it just slipped their mind then. I mean, if Labour say it then it MUST be true…
“Weirdly, a Tory minority at the mercy of the SNP seemingly wasn’t offered as an option.”
Why offer it as an option when it is not even a possibility?
@Stu
“In that context it’s perhaps not surprising that most Unionist politicians and commentators are so angrily and shoutily determined to assert that they won and that the matter is now settled forever.”
Then there are the plethora of BTL angry comments by people in England saying they will not stand for ‘SNP Kingmaking’ and an undemocratic situation caused by ‘opportunistic Scots’!! Fair makes you laugh.
link to theguardian.com
No doubt “Scottish” Labour will start squealing “it’s no’ fair” if the SNP do as well under FPTP as the polls are suggesting they might.
Enjoyed reading that,as it only confirms to me that Westminster has become an exclusive club where only the invited can join.It is now trying to maintain that exclusivity at all costs,and is trying to keep interlopers like the s.n.p. out of the reckoning. I would happily vote Green in an independent Scotland,but for now I hold S.N.P. membership as a token of my resistance to being disenfranchised by the Westminster elite.They do not quite realise that there is a new spirit abroad within Scotland which will ultimately bring down the whole sorry edifice that is currently British politics.
[…] The chief opponents of UK electoral reform are the Labour and Conservative parties, who by an astonishing coincidence are also the two parties who benefit by far the most from the undemocratic stitch-up that is First Past The Post, by which more than half of the votes cast in Britain result in no Parliamentary representation whatsoever. […]
It seems the Scottish Electorate aren’t as thick as the bettertogether lot thought.
I canny help but wonder how some commentators who have spent the last few years running down Scotland and the Scottish people of all persuasions,the newspaper reviews will be comedy gold again from May onwards. 🙂
So who are the 26% don’t know / none of these??
A fair portion of Labour voters and NO voters wondering if they voted correctly… and still confused by what may happen to Scotland as a result of the Referendum outcome.
@Bob Mack
“They do not quite realise that there is a new spirit abroad within Scotland which will ultimately bring down the whole sorry edifice that is currently British politics.”
The sooner the better,
Hey Smurphy and Dugbreath… You must be in panic mode right now. LOL
The UK political system is completely corrupt!
The electorate need to stay clear of the Lib,Lab,and Cons who helped create this monster that was designed for the benefit
of the “main” parties and to the detriment of proportionate representation.
It turns my stomach to hear of party whips forcing MP’s to vote for the party line when it is blatantly obvious that it is against the will of the local constituents.
You will also be aware that the Sun “newspaper” has picked and promoted the party that has won each and every election in the last few decades. If the party leaders worked as hard at stroking the electorate, as they do with Mr Murdoch’s media empire, the country would be a better place.
Hacked off seems to sum up my attitude to the profiteers who mask themselves to be politicians.
I go for ‘temporary & conditional’
If neither party plays ball nicely in WM with SNP then WM shows the world & his neighbour (not just the Scots) how untrustworthy they really are. I see Scottish support as being conditional on this aspect. Gives them enough rope to hang themselves with & temporary because at some point Scots will reach a tipping point & say enough is enough, time to go.
You only need to look at the polls since September to see support for indy creeping up without anyone working to increase it. People are changing their minds of their own volition & it will continue as the months go by.
The referendum may have been a conditional win but it is not until the conditions are fulfilled will it be a win. Until that day we are left to fix a political system that is not fit for purpose.
[…] The death of duopoly […]
Oh, that’ll leave a mark. 🙂
Voters looking for their own preferred mix/system of government?
Whatever next? 😀
Mr Murphy should be left in no doubt by this point. The days of a donkey wearing a red rosette being voted in ‘just because’, are well and truly over. Labour aren’t trusted and for good reason. They betrayed everyone, including themselves over a period of many years now. People know what they want and if it isn’t forthcoming, they know how to turn the screws on the parties.
Murray Foote,s keeping a keen eye on the situation in case theres another Vow in the offing Nicola, Davy, Ed. promise to work in coalition to for the next goverment.
& hell froze over,cold weather payments on the way.
Even if, and it is a very big if, the UK voters deliver a hung parliament which exactly favours a large SNP presence holding the balance of power it would be naïve to believe that “Devo Max, Home Rule, Federalism” would be imminently delivered as a result of support for either a Labour or – it doesn`t bear thinking about – a Tory minority government. The likelihood of a drip feed of additional “powers” spaced out over as long as possible might be the best that is offered in return for our support.
Far more likely is either Labour or the Tories will have a range of party groupings to choose from. Northern Ireland for example offers Labour and Tory hope and Sinn Fein, elected but not participating, skews the figure needed for a majority.
Stage one is to turn opinion poll ratings into a reality in the next twenty weeks – remember what happened in September in the very last week.
Stage two is to look at the landscape and see what is best for Scotland, this is where party discipline and strategy comes in to play.
Stage three is feet to fire for additional real powers and with a view to 2016 Holyrood election.
Independence will come.
@Annie,
Alex Salmond has already indicated that the SNP will change the policy of not voting on purely English matters, if they end up with the balance of power after the General Election.
In the lead up to the election I’m sure the slogan will be vote SNP to ensure the vow that we were promised gets delivered.
2017?
An interesting poll. Like everyone else I am hoping that the Scottish electorate have learned from the referendum and will elect a really strong SNP group at the GE. At the same time I ask everyone not to build their hopes up too much in case our progress is less than ideal. Whatever setbacks we experience our fight must go on forever. Wings truly does serve us well Stu – I thank you for all your hard work. I think it is telling that your focus today is first and foremost on giving us ever more insight rather than stuff about one individual who is miffed about how SNP candidates are selected.
The settled will is that the Referendum isn’t settled.
Westminster made sure of that by failing on the VOW.
Independence is now even more likely – though the settled will of the Scottish People about Independence may need just a little longer to firm up.
QUOTE
Having voted No to independence, they have no faith in the Unionist parties to deliver fairness and justice to Scotland. Which is kind of strange, if you think about it.
UNQUOTE
Just a bit strange. I wonder again about the figures 55 v 45.
I think the balance of power, isn’t about which of the two Tory Parties, red or blue, that the SNP might support, it’s about the SNP being able to use their block of votes to vote for or against policies that are in Scotlands best interest.
if a scenario arises in which an vote that would effect England only and either the Labour or Conservative Tories need the SNP votes to get their policy through the house, then the SNP can do behind the scenes deals, in order to get further concessions to benefit Scotland.
The SNP will not enter into coalition with Labour as this ability to negotiate concessions will be lost and the compromises that the SNP would have to make would eventually lead them to having to vote against Scotlands best interest (like Scottish Labour MP’s have repeatedly done)
As soon as the SNP did this, they would be finished..
Aint gonna happen!
The following are links to two vid’s showing in simple animations on how FPTP and the gerrymandering of constituency borders affect the outcome of elections.
The FPTP system can only lead to a two party system… that is why the Red and Blue Tories fight tooth and nail to keep it… they reap the benefits. This is aptly demonstrated in nearly all post WWII governments. Blue… then Red… then Blue… then Red.
1. The Problems with First Past the Post Voting Explained
2. Gerrymandering Explained
I keep telling English and Welsh they need to vote Green or Plaid, as these are the Groups SNP will work with. There are Left wingers down south who are in despair, and look at us with envy, with SNP. A great many of them also despise Labour. Now is the time for those south of the Border to get active to try and pull this stinking UK govt to the Left.
James Caithness
a staggering, but not untypical quote i’m sure.
‘want PR, vote SNP 2015ge, it’s the only way to fly.’
I do not believe the result of the referendum and events since then have hardened my belief.Every single day in that last year there were at least 3 scare stories in the press or some major or minor figure spoke bullshit about the supposed nightmare that would befall an independent Scotland.I tend to believe most scots are not stupid and this would have the exact opposite effect. The unionist favourite line is tinfoil hat time but I still smell a rat with the outcome.Why were hundreds of thousands rushing to register? I guarantee it was not to vote no.
It all depends on which form of PR is selected, which kind of outcome arises. There was a referendum on a change of electoral system promoted by the LibDems in this Westminster parliament. The voters declined the offer. I support PR generally,but concluded the method proposed was designed to help only the LibDems. The Holyrood system was designed to stop the outcome which we have. Indeed I’ve seen a lot of discussion here about gaming the Holyrood system to keep out unionists.
In some countries PR systems give undue influence to very small minorities. In others ( Italy until a few years ago ) they lead to unstable governments.
I am not sure that people in general are quite able to engage enough to figure out a system which is absolutely fair, democratic, does not favour the hierarchy of the party over the members, and produces results that everyone is happy with.
If the outcome in the UK was representation for far right wing groups say, and for religous groups – both of which would be perfectly possible in some PR systems – would we be better governed? Oh, and the SNP would have more seats, but what are the real prospects of polling over 50% of the poll for any party?
The real issue in UK and many other democracies is not the electoral system particularly. Rather it is that people do not want to hear the truth. They vote for liars who only get elected by telling lies, then they get upset because the liars they voted for didn’t do what the lied they were going to.
@ James Caithness
Precisely-it seems odd to me that polls are moving upwards with no-one putting in hours of door knocking, leafleting etc. They are rising even though indy is off the agenda for the time being but it is just too big a rise for the current circumstances.
It’s good to see but it does make you wonder whether it was more that 45% for YES given that it’s risen 7% in just 3 months. It can’t all be down to the shambles & dishonesty of Labour. Perhaps with hindsight people have been able to see that they were misled but I can’t really see that as being that significant either.
The Westminster elite are between a rock and a hard place. They don’t want the “aggro” that comes with Scotland (especially since the referendum) but they do want Scotland’s many resources, those resources which allow them to be “elite”! Tick tock…
[…] The death of duopoly […]
Sorry to go off topic so early but I’ve just had an argument with R S McColl head office who have confirmed to me that the National newspapers in their stores in Scotland are deliberately not on prominent display but on the bottom shelf among Racing Posts and fishing magazines. It was confirmed that that was the decision of RSMcColl national management as they thought that was the proper place for it.
Check you local R S McColls stores
You make a very good point Lollysmum. ”Polls showing upwards without any canvassing etc”
@Joemcg
I am with you on this one Joe. The result was compromised somehow.
The secret Polls that Westminster commissioned are testament to ‘behind the scenes’ activity and ultimately manipulation.
Only an SNP vote can deliver “The Vow” 😀
Peter A Bell says:
“Weirdly, a Tory minority at the mercy of the SNP seemingly wasn’t offered as an option.”
Why offer it as an option when it is not even a possibility?”
I think the problem here is how one defines majority and minority
eg, a tory or tory/UKIP minority could become a majority if they give in to the SNP demands for Devo Max(FFA)for 90% of the time. I think they would be tempted to do so and solve the subsidy junky and EVEL imagined issues. They would also need the SNP to sit on its hands to ensure that the EU ref bill passes!!! I would add as a caveat that any such deal by the SNP should include the option for scottish MP’s to vote electronically on the remaining, Defence and Foriegn affairs issues in the HOC…..The Scottish Mp’s could do that from Calton hill when not discussing how scotlands upper chamber should be instituted 🙂
Never forget
link to theguardian.com
Let’s face it with a sizeable SNP block vote sent to Westminster, Labour would be between a Scot and a hard place on the ‘VOW’. A near federalist state was what was promised by Mr Broon and devo max constantly bandied about as the reality by the media. Think how Labour would look if they were publicly seen to drag their heels/actively block progress on delivering either whilst a large block of SNP MPs were in attendance? And all because they couldn’t get out of their usual oppose SNP mindset?
Its a pickle for them. 🙂
So by my calculation, when you take out the ‘don’t knows’, that’s 47% for labour minority gov. with SNP holding the balance of power. Interesting times indeed.
I disagree with your “42% of respondents would prefer a coalition government at Westminster”, though; the SNP holding the balance of power is not necessarily them being in a coalition. Personally, I think they’d do better – and have more influence – without making coalition deals.
The MSM are pretty much united against PR. Having to curry favour to lobby and influence half a dozen parties may challenge their budget.
It seems clear that if you want some kind of change in UK politics in 2015 there is only one vote in Scotland that has any chance of delivering.
In the future I would love to see a Scottish leadership debate with at least 6 potential First Ministers of different political leanings. Surely that would reflect a normal civilised society?
How can any sane minded person still stick up for FPTP? I remember thinking it was ludicrous when I learned about it in school at the tender age of 13!!!
Lollysmum.
‘it seems odd to me that polls are moving upwards with no-one putting in hours of door knocking, leafleting etc.’
Pardon me but you are wrong. Leafleting and canvassing is ongoing here in Dundee and has been since the referendum and no doubt we are not the only area doing so. You don’t win elections in the three weeks before election day but by the hard graft before the official election period. I believe we have had thousands of survey cards back since we started putting them out in October.
Re R S McColls, the one I go to has the National front and centre as does a nearby Spar and an independent shop along the road, never any problem getting one.
Stu –
I have to agree with Derek’s point; I think referring to the first option
A Labour government with no overall majority and with the SNP holding the balance of power
as somehow a coalition
42% of respondents would prefer a coalition at Westminster
is slightly disingenuous. Confidence and supply is not the same as coalition.
I await a slapdown with some trepidation!
Having voted No to independence, they have no faith in the Unionist parties to deliver fairness and justice to Scotland. Which is kind of strange, if you think about it.
It certainly must seem so … if one assumes absolutely everybody that voted No is set against the SNP and any new powers, which, as we now know, is not the case.
It does appear, on the surface at least, that that negative vote is conditional on Westminster handing back a great deal of the powers of state to Scotland.
link to archive.today
Sorry but will not open any MSM links.
Reading Chomsky’s ‘How the World works’- god it’s scary but interestingly the use of the word ‘virus’ was used repeatedly in the USA against their enemies.
X_Sticks says:
29 December, 2014 at 1:51 pm
Only an SNP vote can deliver “The Vow” 😀
What a brilliant, brilliant message, so simple so effective, worth repeating and worth shouting throughout Scotland all the way to May 2015:
Only an SNP vote can deliver “The Vow”
X_sticks
yes, short snappy say it all sound bytes.
‘proven; snp fights for scotland.’
@ James Caithness
Firget the expression of votes as a pecentage.
Just think of it simply as 11 to 9
1 in 20 voters changes to Yes and the games a bogy for the Union.
Strangely I have become a fan of FPTP. That tipping point is so attractive. I feel a tad guilty as it is still a dreadful system. However I’ll live with the guilt until we are using our own Holyrood system.
The Greens who criticise the Trump Development, get secret funding and support ffrom wealthy feudal landowners, against the Public interest.
Natasha: I await a slapdown with some trepidation!
Is that one of Heston Blumenthal’s latest concoctions? 🙂
My local Morrisons are now displaying The National where people can actually see it + What about that UKIP buffoon standing against Alex Salmond in Gordon he reckons Alex is arrogant and that’s why the Kippers will win. Bit arrogant that is’nt it? Enjoyed todays cartoon…I am Alex Salmond
According to the Guardian’s political editor Labour and Conservatives account for no more than 60% of the English vote between them, whereas back in 1951 it was 96%.
@Dr Jim
“that UKIP buffoon standing against Alex Salmond”
A unionist plot to fix the vote and embarrass Alex?
“Ex SNP FM(Dear Leader) loses seat to UKIP”
They might think that that would be the end of it.
@ Marcia
Thanks for putting me right. Viewing from 350 miles away sometimes means you get the wrong impression. I knew someone here would have the answer 😉
Ken500: If it is a secret, how come you know all about it? Which feudal landlords are you referring to?
They know their little cosy life is about to be turned upside down. It’s so sad when they say “listen, it’s over, can we just move on and forget about it.” Eh, “naw.” What they’re really saying is “please please let it go away.”
What will become of all the washed up Labour politicians after the next election I wonder. The way things are going for them just now financially, they could all end up standing on the streets on crates just trying to get their message across.
It’s actually really sad that with the BBC following them around constantly they will still be very much at the forefront whereas other parties with a similar budget would be invisible.
Will McEwan says:
29 December, 2014 at 1:47 pm
“Sorry to go off topic so early but I’ve just had an argument with R S McColl head office who have confirmed to me that the National newspapers in their stores in Scotland are deliberately not on prominent display but on the bottom shelf among Racing Posts and fishing magazines. It was confirmed that that was the decision of RSMcColl national management as they thought that was the proper place for it.
Check you local R S McColls stores”
See, that’s whit “Against The Odds” n salmon jokes dis fur ye.
I see Margreet Curran is trying to make fuss over on the LabourList, regarding Murray and the Bedroom tax….tumbleweed.
The only competition in Gordon is Cons. A UKIP candidate could split the vote. Go for it.
Alex Salmond will walk it.
Re the UKIP buffoon in Gordon:
Will surely hurt the Tories most. But having said that — and planning to vote SNP in 2015 — I look forward to a few IWB (Indie fae Westminster & Brussels) candidates on the list in 2016.
The use of virus as a metaphor for the Indy movement is interesting – some viruses are good for building up immunity and preventing a catastrophic reaction to infective agents – the indy movement is doing just that – a virus that strengthens and provides resilience – we will be the virus that overcomes a weakened WM constitution
Funded and supported opposition against the AWPR. Route surpassed estate. Held it up for years at major public cost. Check it out. Other wealthy landowners fund political parties. Champagne and canapés.
Kinda validates my long held theory that many Scots would rather girn about WM than take responsibility for themselves.
PR would be an advance, but we, the people, need to reclaim democracy. Every 5 years we abdicate responsibility and the political parties and professional politicians accrete power to themselves and don’t let anyone else get a grip on it. The whole political settlement in the UK is designed to keep power at the centre and ensure ordinary citizens do as they are told. What’s worse is that the parties policies are driven by dogma, not the best interests of the people or what the people might want – like greater equality. We need to break their stranglehold.
As I posted before, be careful what you wish for.
FPTP may not be ideal but can anyone really say it’s less democratic than the current list system for the Scottish Parliament? Okay, two wrongs don’t make a right but stay with me for a minute.
The key to true democracy must be that elected members must directly serve and be accountable to the people that elect them. For this reason I believe we must have a constituency-based system so you know whose door to knock down.
But under the current FPTP arrangements it is possible to represent a community with way less than half of the votes cast. That’s not good enough and never was.
Instead, in my view, we need a system where voters rank all the candidates in order of preference with 1 being best choice, 2 for second best, etc. Then the candidate with the lowest number is elected because they polled lots of ones and twos (i.e. first and seconds).
This means that perhaps only 40% get their first choice – just as with FPTP – but another 40% may get at least their second choice and so have some sense of investment and ownership over the person representing them instead of the current feeling of having had no input at all.
The trouble with some forms of PR is that nobody gets the Government they voted for – coalitions that were not in the manifestos or on the ballot paper are not democratic.
Will McEwan, Husband got his first National in RS McColl. I asked him where they were in the store, anywhere he say, he was using them when nobody else had it. So unless this is a new recommendation I do not know where this has come from, someone winding you up. Tesco here in Duloch has it on the same shelf with all the others.
Liz, thanks for the archive, nice to see how our Better Together, Aye Right, countrymen and women get on without us. How little they know of Scotland and all matters political.
FPTP has certainly benefited the Red Tories for over 50 years. Ironically, it could be the same FPTP system that finally destroys them.
If Labour is the largest party after the election they intend to form a government and serve out the full 5 years as required by the fixed term parliament rules. If they lose a vote they will simply shelve the bill and move on to other matters. They will not share power with anyone preferring to seek agreement through, horse trading with opposition parties . Could be an interesting journey.
O/T dub125.mail.live.com/?tid=cmPAKbA3WP5BGzJQAhWtez7A2&fid=flinbox
the so vile WOS that she asked for ah WBB,after refusing my 1st offer.
Posting again with an update. I am investigating information that has come to hand indicating Murphy joined the SNP and CND when he returned to Scotland. Seemingly he then joined the Labour Party, which was still anti- nuclear at that time. If anyone has confirmatory information please post it so I can update my records.
Jim “Spud” Murphy (1992 – 1997) The Student Union Years and his Carefully Planned and “Jammy” Rise to Political Office
President of the National Union of Students. (Full time member of the Union from 1992 until 1996). *Indications are that his studies did not progress as expected in the first 2 years of his attendance and becoming increasingly involved with student politics he gave up Studying in 1992 retaining this status until the end of his tenure as President of the Union late summer of 1996. When he gave up student politics and University membership taking up employment with the Labour party.
A record of events is attached providing a record of events that brought this chancer to political office.
link to caltonjock.com
Snode1965 says at 3.39
Bedroom tax is not Labour’s strong point after the North British branch office manager revealed that she was not allowed to speak against it for a year until such time as Ed Miliband made up his mind.
On 13th November 2013, 47 Labour’ MPs failed to turn up to vote to repeal the Bedroom Tax at Westminster and thus let the Tories carry on by only 26 votes and their official excuse was that they were “paired” with Tory MPs. However “pairing” does not apply to important Parliamentary business and repealing the Bedroom Tax was not important business for Labour.
Certainly wasn’t important enough for Anas Sarwar who was giving a lecture in Pakistan (no doubt telling them that they should have stuck with India) or Jim Murphy who was attending a lunch at a vegetarian cafe in Glasgow.
Far more interesting is Margaret Curran’s view of Jim Murphy.
In 1997 the former National Union of Students leader Jim Murphy was widely seen as playing a key role in a successful Blairite ploy to expel numerous left-wingers, Home Rule supporters and feminists from the Scottish Labour executive.
After the Blairite Network group succeeded in removing Rosina McCrae and others from the executive in what was widely seen at the time as a coup for the right wing of the party, at the time, the now Shadow Scotland Minister Margaret Curran said: “My membership fees are not paid to have Jim Murphy carve up Rosina. We should be an organisation for committed activists, not hollow careerists.”
Anybody know how much Mr Smith Commission got paid for his hard graft, hard graft part was sarcasm. I just wondered how much it was worth to waste all that time to come up with 29% of tax when the Northern Irish just whip out a threat and receive immediate capitulation from UK.co Still Mr Pres Obama’s happy about all the effort having been put into the NI deal makes me feel loads better to think we spent over 2 bloody years trying to do everything the right way and got shafted by that very same President and his British Branch office. Maybe we’re doing it wrong possibly a Claymore up their bahookies would make their eyes water or a quiet word from the Queen to ask them to think again, Eh? i’ve heard that line before. I also noticed the English dont want a load of Scottish “Nationalistas” coming down to Englandshire and holding the balance of power at Westminster How come they never objected when it was the Labourites going down? Also a big thank you to some Englandshire folk who have joined the SNP you’re welcome for your holidays anytime
joemcg & Wingman
I agree.
Since 18/9 we have had SNP Membership trebled and similar membership increases for The Greens & SSP.
This combined with the polls on voting intentions and other polls similar to the one referred to above together with the desperate calls from the BT lot even up to and including The Queen for reconciliation leads me and I reckon plenty other people to suggest that somehow the Referendum Result was rigged.
Boris: presumably the SNP would have records of Murphy being a member if that were the case?
Oh God, wouldn’t it be hilarious if evidence emerged to prove it, how embarrassing for him, please, please let it be true so I can laugh and laugh!
I’ve just read this from Humza Yousaf… “Scottish Government is being attacked by Scottish Labour for staying in a hotel in Doha, not realising Gordon Brown was staying in exact same hotel for the same conference – hypocrisy knows no bounds!”
link to munguinsrepublic.blogspot.co.uk
Scotland has lost £4Billion+ in Oil Tax revenues since 2011 Budget when Osbourne/Alexander put the Oil tax up 11% (£2Billion) a year and laughed about it. ConDems have been crowing ever since about lost revenues. Killed the golden goose for no other reason than spite. Scotland has lost £4Billion+ a year. The Oil companies cut exploration ie drilling more bore holes. They cut the tax 2% in the Autumn Statement, not enough to make much difference. They are doing it deliberately to harm the Scottish economy for no other reason then harm their own constituents. The down turn in Oil prices will help the general economy but the ConDems are thick.Now with their false concern in Scotland because their support is falling.
The major job losses will be south of the border in the supply chain. The NE of Scotland has full employment and skilled job vacancies. Thanks to the Scottish Gov there will be increased jobs in the fishing, construction, education, renewable sector and NHS, which will mitigate any job loses in Scotland,
I know we’re only taking about possible outcomes, but my preference would be an outright SNP majority at Westminster.
So no love of the duopoly here. Anything with labour involvement leaves me cold.
The pragmatist in me of course sees an SNP Labour coalition as a necessary evil.
Andy-B
Ha ha ha nice one-SLAB abject failure to do their job properly-egg on face instead of on Murphy 🙂
Sinky, Margaret Curran calls out Murphy as a career politician…oh the irony. Andy-B, Ah yes James Kelly, shadow cabinet member, comedy genius every time he opens his trap! Are these people really the best SLabber can provide? Let’s hope so!????????
First past the post is bad – yes – but the real evil is the existence of political parties whose representatives are always in danger of prioitising loyalty to the party over their duty to attend to the interests of their constituents.
All or most of the above arguments are exactly why I think that political parties/political strategies of whatever hue are doomed to fail and that includes the SNP,the constraints are far too narrow/rigid the toeing of the party line stifles expansion/freedom of thought and ideas.We are a small country of circa 5mil with huge natural resources and most still untouched not to mention Scots natural talent of flair/imagination,I would prefer to go along with the recent model adopted by Iceland,having thrown out both centr/left wing parties they elected proven in their field representatives from all walks of life,250 I believe this for me is more akin to true democracy,you cannot dismiss those that disagree with you better that you show them that we can achieve the goal of making Scotland a better fairer country for all it,s inhabitants be they SNP/LABOUR/TORY et al,strength through unity/probity for all our citizens no one should be afraid of this.
We should be careful of using ‘coalition’ loosely.
Neither the SNP nor Salmond as an individual advocate any sort of formal coalition that created the SNP a junior partner ruling Westminster – nice thought that that might be when it comes to the pleasures of political revenge.
Disband all political parties and elect a body of those proven in their field to run the affairs of our country,the remit being that all decisions are made for the benefit of the communities and the country at large,we are a hugely wealthy country that can invest properly in the future of Scotland,creating sustainable eco friendly jobs for our young investment in health/education being to the fore,with only 5mil of a population we could be groundbreakers in the establishment of a new and better way of governance.
Stuart Hosie say SNP and Labour alliance would be a positive step if it stops David Cameron coming into power again
link to archive.today
Radio 4 reporting Gartnavel Hosp treating ebola patient
@john young
Trouble is we haven’t thrown out our political parties yet 🙁
Until such time the war for independence goes on. It doesn’t have to be the SNP, there have been other movements, other times. The Saltire Society, National Convention, National Covenant, Scottish Secretariat, GUSNA, Scottish Patriots and on and on, even Yes Scotland Ltd! The SNP has survived because its aim is independence by Westminster’s rules.
The others have failed whether referendum, petition, cultural leadership, education or whatever, whereas the winning by beating your head against a brick wall has survived. Its not so daft; if you beat them by their rules they cannot claim you haven’t. That is why May 2015 is so important. It seems likely that not only can we upset the apple cart in Scotland but that fortune might give us the same sort of leverage in Westminster as the Irish enjoyed up to 1914.
Join the SNP, learn how to canvass and go do it. Thats the best way to help win a majority of seats in Scotland for an independence party. Then on the 8th we can make further plans.
@Truth – If only – the English would immediately look for independence
@ John Young None of your understandable hopes for Scotland and its people will come true unless we regain our independence. Politics is messy, and sometimes nasty, as we have all seen during the referendum. The ends [independence] will justify the means. Peaceful means, at that.
I find it hard to see any copies of the National newspaper on sale in Falkirk.
Maybe the paper’s sales are targeted in large cities that are more likely to sympathise with its aims.
I can get the National in leafy Morrningside, hardly a place with independence sympathies but saying that , I have still to see Waitrose stocking it. Hmm a story there methinks
handclapping – round of applause from Brechin.
can someone of a kindly nature please explain to MSM who obviously find thinking hard work, taxing, and difficult.
because of labours et al’s input into the BT campaign, the snp retained the right to stand for election to WM seats as mp’s, to represent scotland’s best interests.
we, on the yes side lost our fight for indyscot, for the time being, why can’t MSM except this?
oh, dear, it looks like i’ve answered my own question, it’s the words ‘for the time being’, that’s what scares them, their future loss.
they can always fall back on traditional working class job’s, i suppose, except they closed them all down.
if labour didn’t want the snp @ WM, they should have thought it through, and campaigned for indyscot.
but no they thought cake and eat it and childishly believed that they could have the best of both worlds, and we would happily continue to pick up the bill.
labour act in haste repent @ leisure.
The referendum result was not a “No”, but a “No, but…”. What bit of that do the Unionist parties fail to understand? Answer: the “but”.
What bothers me about sending all our best politicians down south is who’s going to man the fort?
Yes, why won’t the Unionists see that if they swing a vote at the last minute by making promises, the win which they achieve has to be conditional on the delivery of those promises? Seems simple.
I did say months ago that Yes were wrong to accept complete defeat. They should have complained about the moving goal posts, the big constitutional promises, and declared their acceptance to be conditional.
Seems everyone in the Indy camp is slowly but surely moving to that position now.
If the official Yes campaign had said anything about goalposts moving, it would have been a gift to the media so soon after the vote.
The way things are currently playing out is exactly the way that they should.
If the goalposts are moving – is Mr hi jumpy getting smaller?
Helena Brown at 4.23
I talked to the head office (twice) of RS McColl down south and the customer service person who PHONED ME BACK confirmed that their shops had been instructed to put the National on the bottom of the rack and not on the frontal display. I suspect putting it on proper frontal display will be the decision of local shop managers ignoring other instructions
Post here at 1.18, 1.32 and 5.32 represent a growing uneasiness about the result which, as I have indicated several times, does not stack up.
The most exhaustive canvas ever done right across Scotland which was supervised by a very prestigious polling company and which has a record of being spot on came up with a very different result. This was the certain information all our team had when they went into the TV studios
Magrit is getting desperate, she wtote to me on House of Commons stationery, with the “Carrot Grater” stamped on the back, asking if she could pop round to discuss matters of moment, like dog-dirt. Hadn’t realise dog-dirt was a reserved matter. Strange woman.
@Dave McEwan Hill and I am also a bit suspicious of people who try to close down this side of the debate by accusing folk of being conspiracy theorists.
The difficulty we have is we will not be able prove it.
Typical UK way of doing things there will be an apology 20+years from now but hopefully we are well out of the UK by then
Good article in the National today by Carolyn Leckie, have to get up early or it’s sold oot.
Annie posted earlier about a scenario where SNP were backing up a labour minority government, and mentioned about what happens about SNP traditionally not voting on english only matters.
My simple answer to that very good point would be to state that an SNP party being powerbrokers AT westminster would have a moral obligation
to vote on any and EVERY issue of government, since england does not have a devolved parliament.
Every MP from devolved nations are members of the WM parliament, MSP’s take care of Devolved matters, so why should they NOT vote since the lack of english devolution means every issue is, in reality, a WM issue for EVERY WM MP, regardless of where their constituency is.
If anybody could bear to watch BBCs wee look back at the year apart from the usual leanings, the Daily Record, according to “wet as a kitchen cloot and let’s see how long it takes me to get a sentence out” Kevin McKenna served us well with “The Vow” being good journalism. Can i just say Kevin, Boy, when you pick a side you really stick to your principles Eh, in which world was that nonsense by the Daily Record good Journalism, it was cut price, brass necked lying drivel designed for one thing only and that was “NOT” to inform, but to mislead, well if that’s good journalism maybe it’s best we dont buy any paper at all if your respect is freely given to those who would continue to descend to that level of non commentary non informative drivel. I am saddened to see you swim in the same pond as this other kind of life…I can’t even finish with the usual funny comment coz none of that was….
The UK want us so we should vote on all matters – they asked us to pool and share.
Brothers at arms!
@Paula Rose
Good point. They went to huge lengths to keep Scotland in the UK. Well, now they can perhaps reap the ‘benefits’ of our presence in their faces, up close and personal!
@Dave McEwan Hill & Liz –
Youse had better watch it with that loose talk about imagined electoral shenanigans, elsewise someone will be along to skelp the back of your legs!
Fwaa-teesh!!
cynicalHighlander
“With just over five months to go before the General Election on May 7”, Published 28 Dec.
This is very bad arithmetic.
Time is slipping by for politics.
Soon!
“Pool and share” can quite easily become “rool and shape” if you look at the bigger picture and the resources at your disposal.
When will we see the first labour MP/MSP complain about FPTP being unfair? And favouring the SNP in May 2015? And who will be first BBC journalist to push that message without question?
I am beginning to try and anticipate events and it seems like nothing can be ruled out.
@ Dr Jim
i promised you a reply to all your queries about NI so I have listed them here and tried to answer as best i can. if I’ve forgotten anything, please remind me!! I have also posted this on the previous thread and am posting here in case you miss it
Before we start, I have to ask you to remember the good friday/belfast Agreement and subsequent agreements. They were backed up by the republic of ireland and the USA and are registered as international treaties. NI is not on the same footing as Scotland and Wales – it has one foot in the Uk and the other out the door
off we go –
1)“Northern Ireland get what they want coz they threaten the UK”.
Please remember the DUP/SF power-sharing agreement in Stormont, the NI Assembly, has been at stalemate for several years,but the UK govt needs it to work. It does not want to go back to Direct Rule and it does not want to openly concede Joint Sovreignty with the republic of ireland,
But it can’t wash its hands of the issue because, like the Republic of Ireland, it is a guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement/Belfast Agreement which ended the violent strife and set up the Stormont Assembly .
So de facto if not de jure, NI has a form of joint sovreignty. In fact a minister of the republic of ireland and a Special Envoy from the US were involved with the UK secretary of state in the talks
2) when did Northern Ireland become a nation, i always thought it was a breakaway part of it’s original Nation and then became a Colonial Satellite of the UK coz nobody knew what else to do with them,
Quite right – but Westminster loves the narrative of family of nations etc – even though we all know it’s just another fairytale
3) Unification, if the South would have them would be better for all
A lot of people would agree with you. The Unionists and Loyalists (orange order) don’t
4) I think that’s why NI was against Scottish Independence
The Unionists/Loyalists were certainly against Scottish Independence – see their support for the Orange Order march in Edinburgh before the referendum.
Irish Nationalists/Republicans weren’t but didn’t say anything because the govt of the Republic of ireland had asked for silence on the issue
5) coz without us and the obvious subsidy they would look like the economic basket case they are
Agree Ni is a failed statelet – socially, politically and economically.
Few people except Unionists/Loyalists/orange order would disagree. They like it because it consolidates their power which is probably on the downswing as the latest census showed they are no longer a majority, particularly in belfast, their capital city!!
I have not included all the various links as i don’t know if they would go through
Morag’s is a better flamenco dancer than even moi!
Tam Jardine: would be amusing to see BritLab reconciling Ed’s “35% strategy” with the unfairness of FPTP.
Cynical Highlander: Interested to see that Wee Dougie Alexander isn’t talking to Ed. But The Mighty Cochers has pointed out that he’s called “Rain Man” and no-one knows what he’s saying anyway…
Dr Jim at 9.25
Kevin McKenna is one if the few journalists who supported independence, particularly and very usefully fortnightly in the Scottish Catholic Observer.
Suggestions that “the Vow” was a very effective piece of journalism are certainly accurate (though I doubt if it was actually as effective as it was made out to be. It however has helped to explain a strange result )
@Paula Rose 10.06pm
What on earth are you talking about? Btw, I’m stuck on today’s crossword. Could you nip over to Off-topic and give me some hints?
Taken from CQN a good wee read about our fitba
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
Smithy, I get the National all over Falkirk no problem. In fact it’s getting a more prominent position
on shelves every week.
@ Kevin McKenna
Did I not warn you about backsliding? Your tea’s oot son, now you’ve showen us you’re a phoney, snug in the pocket of the Establishment.
Next.
@Ben Madigan
Thanks Ben, exactly what i thought i said but you said it nicely
Ben Madigan @ 10:02
I know you were responding to someone else with your comment there, but I wanted to say thanks for making me (for one) a bit more clued up on the nature of Northern Ireland’s government than I was before I read your outline. Very informative. Thanks again.
@Dave McEwan Hill
Totally agree with you Dave it was effective, but what it was’nt was journalism, it did’nt Inform, Investigate, or even Challenge it was an Advert for a cause on behalf of one set people opposing a belief of another if you are to accept that’s journalism, where’s the opposite view of the Advert, it’s a commercial entity accepted, so it can pick a side, but in fairness to who it purported to represent it did’nt just pick a side it told a very big FIB as my primary school teacher would have said and i have to agree with Cameron B Brodie on this one
@Dr Jim
final point which didn’t go through last time. Post too long?
6) I just wondered how much it was worth to waste all that time to come up with 29% of tax when the Northern Irish just whip out a threat and receive immediate capitulation from UK.
(see above for explanation of threat)
Yes they got the changes they wanted in the Corporation tax –
SF and Republic are happy because it puts NI on the same level as the Republic (unity a step closer),
UK govt is happy for the same reason (hand-washing etc),
The DUP (read orange order) have not yet ratified the agreement and are threatening not to.
In exchange – redundancies in NI civil Service (saves UK govt money but means loss of good jobs with pensions, work security etc),
Chance for US companies to move in (Mr Obama is happy) with temporary, low paid jobs.
Highly paid, highly skilled jobs are unlikely because of divided society in schools, housing etc. There are very restricted areas and housing stock that are safe for neutral middle class people to live in.
If you want a laugh check out the journalistic rigour here:
link to archive.today
I think this is probably the most idiotic Scotsman piece yet. Fozzie briefing a compliant Scotsman journalist with no interest in the truth.
So the SNP’s oil forecast is out by £15.5 billion (from Fozzie’s prediction which is predicated on the oil price remaining static, not just in about 15 months time from now when the Scottish treasury would be getting the first tax revenues but 3 (three) years later! Those fucking steady oil prices – 4 years from now they are bound to be the same!
Only 3 certainties in life – death, taxes and now the price of oil remaining exactly the same! How many times have we been told how volatile oil was! By Carmichael himself! What an absolute plum.
And why extrapolate just 3 or 4 years – why not multiply by 10 to give a £155 billion shortfall over 30 then divide by 5 million population and tell us we all would be £31,000 worse off? That is the same insane pish suggested by dividing the made up figure of £15.5bn by 100 days to give a figure PER DAY for the Fozzie’s absurd prediction of 3 years post independence divided over the 100 days post referendum. Am I dreaming or something?
And by the way, are we to assume Carmichael does not know that 100 days after a Yes vote the UK would still be receiving the revenue? Paragraph 2 is drivel!
I saw no name on the article – did AC just put it together to be printed verbatim?
Truly mental – to learn what is going on in this country you would be as well reading the back of a soup tin
Tam Jardine
2016 + already is it how time flies.
🙂
@ ben Madigan. the fun starts in NI when the Parades commission cant agree,& the flying of Flags, when the Union flag is nolonger flying over City Halls Belfast the OO here will go apeshit.
O/T
I usually buy a bottle of Glenfiddich single malt Scotch whisky at this time of year but I was told that it was owned by William Grant & Sons and that they gave £100,000 to the No to Scottish Independence campaign ,surely this is not true.
Guardian has the same pish. It is just straight political product placement but under the pretext of journalism. A bit sad really, political journalism is already something of a joke without muddying the waters further.
There is a great deal of irony in the fact that a AMS semi-proportional system produced a “strong” government, while the FPTP system produced, and will produce again, a “weak” government.
I think it pretty much debunks the traditional thinking with regards to voting systems. People, it seems, vote for the kind of government that they want. If they want a coalition, they will get a coalition, regardless of the system. If they truly want a dominant party, they will get that, regardless of the system.
@Ben Madigan
Thanks again Ben, same wavelength different words same conclusion I suppose my point is because Scotland’s peaceful, posing no immediate or implied threat we have become an irrelevance, a back burner minor irritation and easily lied to coz they keep doing it and there is now a major part of the population who’ll go along with anything they’re told coz they’re too afraid not to, “Jockholm Syndrome” and that for me is majorly sad. I don’t think it’s because people don’t want Independence the No voters i mean, they just have difficulty summoning up the courage so they mask it with beligerance and very poor excuses to defend their position. Of course, having said that i am in no way dissuaded that should we gain Independence, instant Irish unification will be right on UKs agenda really rapidly because they will become the focus of Englandshire Ire against “Subsidising another load of spongers” not my words, we hear it all the time about us… I am Alex Salmond…you know the rest
fred blogger
Aye – according to Fozzie and his time tunnel he ken’s the oil tax take up to 2019. I predict that for the 3 years between 2016 and 2019 it is closer to £16,563,982,382 but that’s just a hunch. Might be 383.
I love it – your future prediction is wrong according to my future prediction based on the value of a commodity I have endlessly described as volatile being constant for the next 4 years.
The heir to Nostradamus!
Scot Finlayson
Yes, it is quite true.
Much better with any of the Islay malts – Laphroaig, Ardbeg, Lagavulin, Bunnahabhain, Bowmore, etc, etc. As an English Scot, I made it my solemn duty to remedy the deficiencies of my upbringing by visiting in person as many Islay distilleries as possible on my last visit there. Hard work, I know, but someone had to do it. 🙂
Tam Jardine
aye, mystic fozzie, and some do people really suit a beard.
it may yet drop to $40 BoE, opec don’t mind, more to it than immediately meets the eye, imo.
but it does not excuse the math and some people will buy this snp smear, but no one who really matters, ie the scottish voter.
@Natasha
It is hard to believe that a company that sells its product on the ethos and uniqueness of Scotland would sell their country out.
I always found the smell and taste of Laphroaig was almost spiritual after a few drams.
Scotland has lost Oil revenues, £4Billion+ since 2011 Budget . ConDems, Osbourne/Alexander (Carmichael’s mate) increased the Oil tax 11% (£2Billion) a year. £16Billon+ by 2015 Election. Carmichael seems to have conveniently forgotten about that. ConDem liars, they would cut of their nose to spite their face and their constituents. Two faced ConDem – Scotsman liars. It has been cut 2% in the Autumn Statement not enough to make any significant difference. The Oil price fall can mitigate any effect to the economy. Make goods and services cheaper. The Scottish Gov has increased jobs in Renewables, fishing, Education, tourism, and NHS etc. Whisky companies tax evade.
The Scottish Gov has mitigated the ‘room tax’ in Scotland, but had to ask Westminster’s permission. It costs more than it saves.
NI can soon demographically vote to be reunited. The majority in Ireland wanted Home Rule. Gladstone, a Liberal partitioned Ireland. It caused civil war in Ireland. The Catholics were discriminated against in NI by the Masons.
@ronnie Anderson – the parades commission seems fair enough (don’t envy anyone trying to do that job) but the OO has never accepted them or their decisions – Hence the riots
The union flag used to fly 365 days/year (lest we forget!!) over belfast city Hall
A couple of years ago the majority on the council decided on 18 designated days like the rest of the Uk – hence Unionist/ loyalist riots, burning of Alliance party offices and death threats to Alliance politicians (Alliance are affiliated with the LIb-Dems).
Did nobody tell the Scottish branch of the Grand Lodge? hope they’re not reading this!!
@ Johnny -Glad you found the posts helpful
@Dr Jim – yes, we didn’t really have anything to disagree about, did we?
“the No voters just have difficulty summoning up the courage so they mask it with beligerance and very poor excuses to defend their position”.
just like the Unionists/Loyalists in NI. I suppose it’s a normal reaction – fear of the unknown and moving out of a comfort zone
“instant Irish unification will be right on UKs agenda really rapidly”
let’s see – in ireland the big date is 2016 – the 100th anniversary of the 1916 uprising. if the referendum had gone for YES what a double celebration we all might have had!!
” because they will become the focus of Englandshire Ire against “Subsidising another load of spongers”
There seems to be good reason for objecting to paying for NI although as i said on the other thread no one can seem to get definite figures – unlike Scotland which really does appear able to finance itself, if it were left alone to do so
I used to believe in FPTP but now 32% of me says No to it, 15% says Yes, and the other 53% is irrelevant because it didn’t go for either of the main contenders.
O/T
newsnet Scotland and Derek Bateman revamp is now up and running…
link to newsnet.scot
It looks pretty good – they have been busy.
Grant’s whisky gave a total of £185,000 to the NO campaign, they even supported vote no borders.
link to themanufacturer.com
FPTP or PR Scotland will always be outvoted in Westminster 10 to 1. Neither will make any difference at Westminster for Scotland. The only thing that will be make any difference in Scotland is full fiscal autonomyIndependence, and the majority of SNPn members from Scotland in Westminster. NI is heavily subsidised, sectarianism doesn’t pay. The troubles cost £Billions. That is why Westminster will let it go. Scotland is not subsidised that is why Westminster clings on, rather than change fiscal policies for a net receipt. Change borrowing and spending powers rather than cover up Westminster’s secrecy and lies and balance the books in fairness and equality. Westminster are cheats. Scotland is not treated equally under the Union.
Ie ConDems increased Oil tax revenues 11% (£2) Billion in 201l, to lose Scotland £4Billion+ a year since 2011. £16Billion+ by 2015. Carmichael (the clairvoyant) is now lying about and projecting a loss of £15.5Billion in the future , while denying Scotland has already lost £15Billion+ because of ConDem policies for which he Is responsible. A duplicitous liar. Westminster secrecy, lies and economic policies which do not benefit Scotland.
Gas is taxed at 32-34%. The Oil sector is taxed much higher, while (foreign) multinationals tax evade through the City of London and pay no tax, because they finance Westminster politicians and their associates. HMRC is told by Westminster politicians not to go there, that the tax evaders are ‘untouchable’, This is is breaking the Law. The Laws that Westminster make. HMRC will pursue small businesses to death. The UK Civil service and the Crown break the Law of impartiality every day.
It is not FPTP or PR that is the major problem, it is corruption at Westminster. Westminster Politicans are above the Law and use the Official Secrets Act to cover up their criminality. Westminster is corrupt.
Finally, Bateman Is up and running. One of the best in Scotland. Only the best? Let’s hope that deleting and banning doesn’t restrict the comments. Old habits die hard, very BBCish. Bizarre. Let’s hope the need for impartiality doesn’t lead to an inacurate account.
Good luck Batemn. Go for it and well done.
The only way forward is a secular State where religion and politics are kept separate. Equality under the Law. Even predominately ‘religious’ countries follow that rule. Germany, France etc. Religion and State are kept separate. It causes less offence and maintains a proportion equitable equality of authority.
New Newsnetscotland up but moderation seems to be in place.
Ken500,
Can recommend a good book, but you might have read it already.
Treasure Islands by nicholas Shaxson.
Chapter 16 talks about the city of London and it’s history. It’s an eye opener, especially the completely undemocratic role of Remembrancer – the city’s man in parliament.
Westminster Unionist politicians are duplicitous liars, fraudsters and greedy murdering crooks. When will it ever end and give the world peace and the people happiness? People are very angry at lying journalists as well. People are just extremely angry. Stop tbe crap and start telling the truth. That might be a start. Instead of hiding everything under the Official Secrets Act. The whole Civil service had to swear ‘an oath of secrecy’. Personnel from the office junior up, could charged with treason. ie? ‘don’t divulge how many stamps are bought at the Post Office. Westminster secrecy and lies.
That is why the Megrahi appeal had to be dropped on compassionate grounds. Westminster was refusing to release the evidence that would have quoshed the conviction in time (or ever?) Wedtminster refused permission for the Scottish Gov to even publish a relevant letter. Westminster secrecy and lies to cover up Westminster criminality, would have delay any appeal for thirty years+ Even the Scottish Gov has to abide by the UK official Secret’s Act under the threat of treason,another reason to hold on to Scotland and Project Fear. Westminster are afraid of could come out under Independence. Whistleblowers are not protected by Westminster.
The only Press outlet of any independence of editorial is pursued. The Guardian was threatened for telling the truth about illegal surveillance. Cameron/Clegg put in the stormtroopers and threatened the Editor. An abuse of power. To cover up for Westminster lies.
It is a former HMRC ‘heidbummer’, who is concocoting all the major tax evading schemes in the UK. Gamekeeper turned poacher. He works for one of the ‘top’ accountancy firms in the UK. He works in London, illegally flouting the Law and lying to Westminster. Does he know where the bodies are buried? He should be in jail but just gets away with it because Westminster MP’s get very rich from tax evading and the Official Secrets Act.
No matter what it costs the people of Britain. Poverty, sanctions, eviction and walking to the food banks for the vulnerable. The safety net has been removed. The Gamekeepers have turned poacher. It is a despicable apology for a Government. The majority of the people will not have it.
Who won again? 😀
@ScottieDog
Here is link to our true democracy in the “Mother of Parliaments”
Thanks for reminding all of us how good it is (sarcastic cynicism!)
link to en.wikipedia.org
Our day shall come.
Britain could learn a lesson from one of its former colonies, Australia, where voting is compulsory and preferential voting provides a fair representation of the whole electorate. On reflection, probably too progressive for the bastard state that Britain represents.
Dave McEwan Hill, thanks for that, confirming RS McColl, I should say that we no longer use them and now they have absolutely no chance of our custom. Did they say why they were employing this policy? I do not think that the people knocking out the National day after day and their management will be entirely happy with this going on.
Strangely enough I am not a bit surprised, RS McColl at the West End in Edinburgh lost my Husbands business many years ago when he could never get served. It seemed they were paying minimum wage considering how efficient their staff were even back in the 80’s.
Voting should neverbe compulsory. In a democracy, Peopl should right to not vote. If there is not a Party or politician for whom it is worth voting. A right of refusal to endorse a political system with which there is no personal agreement.
The facts are all coming out now. Thatchers concerns about North Sea safety. Thirty years later helicopters are falling from the sky because of lack of adherence to UK Health & Ssfety rules and no UK Gov Inquiry. Westminster are getting away with murder. The evidence is there. Bond Brothers sold out for £250Million after the 2009 crash whuch broke UK Health & Safety rules. No paper trail recording which meant the helicopter would be grounded. No Inquiry and witnesses have been given immunity by Scottish justice system to get at the truth. The faulty gear boxes have now been reported to be replaced? Bereaved families have still not been properly compensated. No blame, no one to sue. Official secrets Act?
It is all coming out but it could still happen because of lack of Westminster responsibility. Army helicopters were modified at a cost of £Billion. North Sea helicopters are thirty/forty years old. Time for a replacement government which takes it’s responsibilities seriously. Vote SNP/Alliance for workers justice in Scotland.
Compulsary voting could just make things worse. A cross put anywhere could spoil the Ballot.
I don’t know about the content, but I think the new Newsnet site needs to do something about its choice of photos. At the moment all the photos on the main page feature older men. Horrible close-ups of jowly faced old men and a rear view of Bateman’s mullet doesn’t really appeal to a wide demographic. In fact the only woman to appear on the page is in an advert: a ‘charming Russian’ with deep cleavage who you can chat to/buy, which really adds to the initial impression that this is a site for unsavoury old men.
I see Magnus Gardham is dutifully running with Fozzie’s dream prediction in the Herald.
And there was me thinking that my opinion of the guy had plateaued… when will these unionists finally dust themselves down, dry their eyes and get with the programme? Acht – they remind me of those Japanese soldiers dug in in the jungle after WW2 still fighting years after the war has been lost.
Get a grip man! If Magnus seriously wants us to believe the oil price will remain the same for the next 4 years, I would like to put my 4 year old daughter forward as a worthy candidate to replace the herald ‘ s political editor.
As she repeats ad nauseum: “Let it goooo! Let it goooo!”
Imperial masters say vote Murphy today but there is still time for us seps to get away from their freak show, just not now or tomorrow but soon, as in Progressive liberal Polly Toynbee today tries to say “save us Scotland, you’re our only hope and if you do, we may let you have self government but not today or tomorrow blah blah bleh.”
“Scotland would depart, despite the oil price collapse exposing its economic vulnerability: who could blame it for preferring to be in Europe than in the miserable retreating UK? At the election, Jim Murphy’s difficult task for Labour is to persuade enough Scots not to vote SNP for Westminster now, risking bringing all this about. There will be time enough for breaking away, if that’s what they want – but first, please keep the Tories out of power in 2015. I hear SNP people swearing a coalition with Labour is the answer, but it won’t happen if Cameron wins even one more seat.”
The next 5 months of Prject Fear 2, plus there’s no oil left because SNP got prices wrong but UKO.gov got it all sooooooooop right.
Scottish MSP have even said the Oil sector is taxed at 32/34% in Holyrood. That is Gas. Oil sector is (rightly?) taxed much higher, but It should not be taxed so high to ruin the industry, which is what the ConDems have done, and laughed about it. The ConDems are useless. People are sick with worry because of it. That puts up the NHS bill. The recession and fiscal policies, increased the NHS Bill. The ConDems elected to protect NHS/Education cut the funding. Out of interest, out of time and out of Office. The useless ConDems. The majority will not forgive or forget.
yesindyref2 says: @ 2.41 am
William Grant & Sons Limited, The Glenfiddich Distillery also donated £100,000 to the Labour Party in Scotland last year.
link to wingsoverscotland.com Its fun to compare todays Graun beggging Scots to Vote Murphy and save them from ConDem England when but a few months back Polly told ligger Neil that no Scot should ever attain high office again.
TeamGB is a funny old world. I personally prefer the sneering malice pouring out of neo fascists like Daily Heil and Torygraph because at least their fear and loathing of Scottish democracy is honest. Christ knows what goes on between the ears of the average Graun journalist, with dump worst ever PM Brown last time and vote LibDem because you know you can trust them, lol very much, unless you voted LibDen to stop student fees etc
Grant’s used to be a favourite tipple of mine.
Haven’t bought a bottle since they declared for NO and probably never will again. The smarter businesses remained neutral in their releases.
Very interesting piece on the BBC website this morning about the 30y papers now released. It is on the scheme to trial poll tax in Scotland and includes a memo, written by David Willetts stating that Scotland and Northern Ireland have their snouts (his words) in the expenditure trough. Brings into the open the contempt that that and subsequent Westminster governments have had for the other nations that make up the UK
Scotland has never been subsided by Westminster. That is a complete and utter lie. The figures prove it. Thatcher was one of the worst PM’s ever for secretly (it us written on the papers, in her own dirty hand). ‘this must be kept secret’), cutting the Scottish Budget. She secretly, misappropriated the equivalent of £Billions of Oil revenues. The equivalent of £150Billion and cut every manufacturing facility in Scotland. The mines, the smelter, the van production, and used the Oil revenues to support unemployment. She built up London Canary Wharf etc, and deregulated the banks (lead to the recession) sold off the Building Societies owned by their members. Sold off utilities, now owned by foreign (gov) companies for profit. Every policy was against the majority in Scotland’s wishes. Most in Scotland will never forgive or forget the Tory/Unionists.
Even with higher public spending in Scotland. Thatcher still took more and devastated the Scottish economy. It is still recovering to day. Thatcher was a lying Witch protected by the Official secret Act. Many of her Ministers resigned because of her destructive behaviour, especially in Scotland, which she could overrule. The SNP/Alliance is the only way to go to protect Scotland. The woman was a thief and a liar. Left £Millions protecting her own back yard, to get votes. A criminal.
I do not agree with the many here who think that FPTP is clearly inferior to PR. Things are not so simple. We should be careful in approaching constitutional issues and the justifiable discontent with the lack of democracy in this country does not lead to the conclusion that a change to our system will improve matters, as Ken500 points out.
Some time ago I wrote a long post about the different systems and what I perceive to be the advantages and disadvantages we should be thinking about.
If you are interested skip the first 7 paragraphs, because the post was written in the context of a wider debate.
link to thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net
Willets the biggest troughing pig of all. Still at it. Minister for Univerities? So ignorant he can’t even read a balance sheet. No wonder the UK is in so much debt, so ignorant liars him can make millions by abusing public funding.
Re new year bottle there is only one bottle wingers should be buying its the spirit of freedom the 45%
Springbank Distillery Campbletown
link to independent.co.uk
Ronnie Anderson The Palace’s position was backed by Professor Vernon Bogdanor, research professor at King’s College London.
He told The Independent: {The essence of constitutional
monarchy is that the Queen and other members of the Royal Family remain
politically neutral }. The Queen meets the Prime Minister once a week,
when both are in London, to discuss government policy.
“The heir to the throne has the right, and perhaps the duty,
to question ministers on policy so as to prepare himself for the
throne. Such discussions are only possible if they remain confidential.
Otherwise the neutrality of the Queen and of the Prince of Wales could
be undermined.. Now lets see how that statement stands up under scrutiny of her comments on the Referendem. What a sham the HOC the Peoples Parliament ha ha . remember Cromwell, another revolution on its way but its Scottish Cromwellians. Tick Tock.
@ Scottydog, “Treasure Islands” is a superb book, a scandalous expose of the men who stole the world and should be compulsory reading.
The Famous Grouse is off my shopping list as they also supported NO I believe.
Islay Malt lovers, read “Peat Smoke & Spirit”, not just about the whisky.
Hoss Mackintosh says:
newsnet Scotland and Derek Bateman revamp is now up and running…
link to newsnet.scot
____________________
Hoss,
Thanks for the heads up.
Not had time to form an opinion yet.
Cheers.
A wee bit O/T but could someone please put up the list of companies and establishments that wanted to shaft Independence.
So we can continue to ignore them with our wallets.
The only thing they really feel.
I would be much obliged.
Poll Tax
In November 1985 Oliver Letwin, now a minister in the cabinet office but then a key Thatcher adviser, wrote to the Prime Minister: “You could make all the changes to grants, non-domestic rates, capital controls and housing benefit in England and Wales, but try out the residential charge in a pure form only in Scotland, and leave domestic rates intact for the time being in the rest of the country.”
He added: “This has obvious attractions: No-one can say you are being insufficiently radical, since you will be curing the disease of the non-domestic rates (which was the worst element of the old system) and trying out an extremely radical system in a significant part of the country.
All UK political Parties have strict discipline. Unfortunately John Smith changed the rules of the Westminster Parliamentary Labour Party which meant Blair coud and did act as a lying Dictator all Party constraint went out the window. It was a feast of largesse, greed, criminality and unnecessary death protected by the Official Secret Act and criminal Politicans. The multimillionaires are still free to collect extravagant gains and awards, when they should be jail. O what a web they weave, when they manipulate, lie and deceive.
Milliband (the lame duck) has changed the Parliamentary Labour Party rules back. The only advantage he is less connected to the illegal war and the criminal banking fraud. Labour/Unionists will get no where continuing with Balls as Shadow Chancellor, too close to the bodies and the fraudsters.
Scotland if you do anything right, please vote SNP/Alliance for the sake of fairness, peace and
quiet. The Scottish Gov is also restricted by the Official Secrets Act and required to keep secrets. Even they cannot freely speak out against the tyranny. Vote SNP/Alliancefor a better world. Scotland has successfully influenced the world before,the first for free tertiary education etc telecommunications, the Internet. Let it again.
thomaspotter2014 says:
30 December, 2014 at 10:59 am
“A wee bit O/T but could someone please put up the list of companies and establishments that wanted to shaft Independence.
So we can continue to ignore them with our wallets.”
Hope this helps 🙂
link to facebook.com
@ ScottieDog, 8:17am
I know you were aiming at Ken500, but, thanks for recommending this book. Ordered already. 🙂
Sorry if I’m displaying my ignorance, but who or what is Fozzie?
telegraph
poll tax article—no comments allowed
oil price article–trashing Scotland losing 155 mill a day–comment all you want
#sickos
@ Helena Brown, 9:11am
?… I hope you are not inferring what this comment implies. Many staff who are paid minimum wage are skilled at what they do, work very hard and are often unappreciated. The converse is that some who are paid well, are overpaid for what they do, do not work hard, and are not skilled at what they do.
@ Dave McEwan Hill.
Re what you were told by RS McColl HO about the National. Is there a chance that whoever you spoke to was thinking of a different paper/magazine when they said its place was with the racing news, etc., or was someone just trying to wind you up?
There isn’t an RS McColl in our town so I can’t make comment about how they treat The National. My husband found them folded over so the title wasn’t visible on the bottom shelf in a local store this morning. He sorted them! 🙂
@ Bookie from `hell
I believe Madsen Pirrie of the Adam Smith Institute was also involved.
I see Katie Tomkins has been at the cooking sherry again.
@ Ken500 says:
30 December, 2014 at 8:39 am
It is a former HMRC ‘heidbummer’,
Ken he gets away with it because his big clients are Tory Grandee, Lords, Cabinet Minister, their mates and Tory donors.
Black Douglas says:
Hope this helps 🙂
link to facebook.com
_______
Thank’s for that, BD ( nice choice of username btw 🙂 ),
but does anyone know if there has been a clear and comprehensive list compiled?
Brian, Fozzie is a reference to Alistair Carmichael, Londons man in Scotland. (From the Muppets)
@Brian Fleming –
‘Fozzie’ is a term of endearment referring to Alistair Carmichael, who is the King of Scotland.
The National is on sale in WH Smith in Livingston. But, yes, it is on the bottom shelf. That may be as much to do with it being ‘new’ as any dirty dealings. There’s only so much room on the shelf.
And after all, Independence is only the preserve of a tiny frothing cadre of neo-nazi virus-like broadsword toting kilt wearing nats. or sumfink like that
An unelected Rothschild was illegally deciding Thatcher’s government policy, as she took from the poor and gave to the rich. Who would never have thought it. Thatcher couldn’t read a balance sheet. She never had a job apart from greedy, society wrecker. Thatcher stopped fiscal autonomy/Independence in Scotland.
The thirty year rule has come back to haunt Westminster like the ghost of Thatcher. Mania from heaven for the Independence movement. If the truth had been know Scotland would have been Independent long ago. It would have a better more equal, free society.
Betty Boop, no indeed, many are just scunnered by their treatment and that is more what I was inferring. The good ladies who, ahem worked for McColl’s spent more time filling the shelves whilst ignoring customers at what must have been some of their busier times. Don’t know about anyone else but given the treatment given to people these days I would actually understand if this was the case. I have always given my best but boy I would have a hard time condemning anyone these days, in fact is it not more a case that you are sacked if you work well just as you get sacked if you don’t.
Some Co-opie have signs up saying, ‘Get your National here’, while Donating money to the Labour Party. Just saying.
Stay away from the Telegraph, an irrelevant, malicious wind up. It give it oxygen and keeps it going. Cochrane is a Labour/Unionist not even a Tory. It’s the only the irrelevant space that will accommodate the annoyance.
Had a look at the new Newsnet Site. Unfortunately my first impression was that it was full of horrific close-up photos of jowly-faced old men and an advert for ‘charming Russian ladies’. Not exactly appealing to a wide demographic.
Fossie – Carmichael
Beaker – D.Alexander
Scotland’s oil, heh!
Isn’t it the UKs at the moment? Isn’t this in fact their problem? What about Westminster’s predictions for oil prices, revenue streams, budget allocation? Aren’t they affected by this manipulation of the prices? Or is it only a problem for the Scottish Government? Though I’m struggling to see why that should be?
Of course had successive UK governments had the forethought to have had a sovereign wealth fund in place decades since, then perhaps they could ride out this manufactured blip in the same way as the Norwegians. No one in the media seems keen to point out this colossally arrogant fuckwittery on the part of those governments though. Spooky or what?
Still if they need some broad shoulders to take on the burden of managing that resource… 🙂
O/T – not sure why I’m even mentioning this but if you haven’t seen Katie Hopkin’s vile tweet re the Ebola patient in Glasgow. link to archive.today
@Paul 12:36pm
I have to agree. Followed the link to the “new” Newsnet and was disappointed with the layout and over-focus on CM.
Decided I couldn’t be bothered reading any of the articles, mainly because of the messy presentation. THREE images of CM makes me think they are not trying to be balanced.
Ignore the Adds. They will change with Bateman’s connections and high profile. Newsnetscotland needs adds to survive. That is possibly the reason for the moderation, to get increased revenues. Bateman is not doing it completely from the good of the heart, but the heart and head are in the right place.
One thing the referendum debate did was to expose just how the privileged elite, a mixture of Non-Scots and Scots from privileged backgrounds, who were snuggly placed into positions of influence and power in Scotland.
These people clearly had no loyalty to Scotland and were happy to throw millions at the BT campaign and put their name to press releases in which they warned Scots of dire consequences if they voted Yes.
We do need a complete clean out of the place-men and women in our media, institutions and businesses in Scotland.
I found it less than surprising when the comparative graphs of future oil prices were produced towards the end of the indyref campaign. They showed every major producer expecting an increase over the coming years but, the UK Government line was the odd one out showing a decline (from memory).
Now that we understand the geopolitics currently playing out with the oil price being used as a weapon against several interests, I’m beginning to wonder if that plan was already being implemented and only the government knew the likely outcome.
@ Paul (12.36pm)
Yes, Paul, you already mentioned that on here 3 hours ago, but have you told them (Newsnet) that?
I agree with you btw. That was one of my first impressions – re “jowly faced old men.” Hopefully that will change over time but they’ll not do anything about something they’re not aware of.
Also, i didn’t see the “charming Russian ladies”, i seen a advert for finding BDM records etc.
Give it a go, what have you got to lose, they seem approachable!
😉
@Stoker & @Paul re Newsnet
The ads will be derived from your stored cookies (just sayin’ Paul 😉 )
Had another look at the page and I don’t have ANY ads displayed. Have a look at your browser’s cookie settings and wind the permissions back a notch.
Ian Brotherhood says:
@Dave McEwan Hill & Liz –
“Youse had better watch it with that loose talk about imagined electoral shenanigans, elsewise someone will be along to skelp the back of your legs!”
________
Integrity of Referendum Vote Must Be Transparent
link to newsnet.scot
@ Helena Brown, 12:29pm
@ Jim McIntosh, 12:49pm
Helena, thanks for clarifying (it didn’t sound like you) 🙂 and I quite understand the sentiments. These days many workers really are treated with contempt.
Jim, Re the odious Katie. My son pointed that out to me earlier and he was still trying to get over watching the dreadful Top Gear team charging through Argentina and J Clarkson making out they didn’t realise what they were doing with that number plate. It looked as though he could barely keep the smirk off his face. Words my son used about both (Katie H and Top Gear), were “racist”, “arrogant”, “insulting”, “inciting hatred” plus a fair few more. He said, during the second part of the programme there were constant references to the Falklands, etc.
What is wrong with those imperialists which inhabit the southern reaches of the UK? The world would be laughing at them if they weren’t already shaking their heads in anger. They are a shameful and shameless bunch.
It was notable that that Guardian article saying what Carmichael wanted it to did not allow comments. This was presumably because the first sensible person to remark would have pointed out (as has already been noted many times by many people) that Yes or not, the fall in oil prices would still have been the UK exchequer’s problem at this moment in time. Who do they think they are kidding?
@Johnny
On the nail.
Its a case of don’t look over here, look over there.
O/T to EBC LONDINIUM: just to let you know SCOTLANDS FIRST MINISTER gave a press conference on the EBOLA case in SCOTLANDSHIRE.
EBC FINDS CRICKET AND ENGLISH FOOTBALL much more important. Enough said!
“the matter is now settled forever”
Not a chance. The matter is now at the forefront of peoples’ thinking when casting their vote.
If anything the settling is that Westminster was always suspected of many things, and as 30 year rules and the like become released, we can say our suspicions were warranted.
30 years down the line, we had councils made up of Conservative Labour councillors chasing people for poll tax, and it took an SNP government to stop that in its tracks.
Imagine if the government had been Labour-led?
Paul, Stoker, re the ads, agree with Jim Thomson, the ads are triggered by cookies or google ads or somesuch. Are you sue it was Russian ladies? Given the main thrust of the news articles present, perhaps it was for Uzbek ladies…
Totally off topic but the day before the referendum I posted this on the BBC
“Time to do something amazing. .
Vote Yes”
It promptly disappeared. Only today going through all the spam and crap did I notice an email from the BBC saying it was deleted because it
“This comment has been removed because special House Rules are in effect during referendum periods.”
Biased? The BBC redefined the term and added bells and whistles.
Please everyone give the Newsnet site and Derek Bateman a chance.
WE NEED ALL THE HELP WE CAN GET.
There are enough at 99% of the rest of the media being pro-BT,and one voice in the darkness is to be encouraged,not slagged off as if its some sort of side show.
There were enough qualified screams for more pro Indy sites so a bit of support is surely the only way to go.
Derek Bateman’s not perfect but the Telegraph he ain’t
GET REAL
To be perfectly honest if neither Labour or the Tories again outright control, I would much prefer that the SNP treat them the same way as they treat the existing SNP MP’s, contempt.
Also I don’t really see Labour even agreeing to any type of pact with the SNP.
They’ve five months to use all means at their disposal to kill the SNP vote. If the SNP vote is as strong as I think it will be then the Labour Party will REFUSE coalition/confidence & supply in favour of a rerun with the hope of polarising the vote. Tories have UKIP to worry about and a potential Euro referendum to worry about. They’d be better off, strategically, to help their old Labour pals to beat the SNP but with their own situation they’ll hope for SNPs success to fall short of being able to keep them from helping Labour to form a government. I estimate that Lab and Tory would risk a rerun which could see them bully the UKIP voters to Tory and Plaid/Green/SNP into Lab votes. They forget that the last election, even without strong showings for the aforementioned, STILL didn’t result in a majority. Only due to Cleggs betrayal of LibDem principles did this government hold. UK voters are entirely sick of ‘the duopoly’ both could find themselves dead in the water in 2015 – I hope!
FPTP results in an ‘elected’ dictatorship, masquerading as a democracy. Westminster has never been and will never be a democracy.
‘Strong’ government means strong bullying by a minority.
The point of coalition governments is to agree on a shared middle ground programme which both parties agree on.
There is hardly any political difference left between the three UK parties. They could very easily form a coalition with a programme they wholeheartedly agreed upon. The only problem is their utter dishonesty and corruption. They want to dupe the people into believing there is a difference between them.
FPTP would be suitable if each constituency MP was only fighting for a better deal for his/her constituents. In practice, once elected the vast majority of MPs vote according to party orders, not according to the wishes of their constituents.
To beat them at their own game and end it for ever, let us send 59 SNP/Pro independence MPs to Westminster in 2015.
There is actually not even a duopoly in Westminster, just a monopoly using two different brands.
A so called ‘Labour’ party headed as much by millionaires as the Tory party.
Labour union bosses earning more than Tory prime ministers.
The whole system is and has been rotten to the core for a very long time.
The SNP are probably making pro Labour comments to neutralise the eternal and very effective Labour mantra of ‘vote Labour to keep the Tories out’.
But I dread the thought of the SNP propping up a minority Labour government unless its very first laws are to abolish the House of Lords, cancel the Trident replacement and Home Rule for Scotland as promised by one Gordon Brown.
Only support them after these three laws have come into force.
Support will be on a case by case, vote by vote basis and under no circumstance will the blue tories gain SNP support. That’s the way I understand the FMs words and until I see otherwise, I’ll take them at face value. No one is talking about propping up or supporting any form of tory gov’t red or blue.
What they are talking about is concessions in return for support on a vote by vote basis.