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The accidental truth

Posted on October 02, 2017 by

Amid the horror of events in Catalonia yesterday, the Prime Minister of the UK – quite unintentionally – said something during an interview on the Andrew Marr Show which was highly pertinent not only to the Catalan referendum but to British domestic politics too. We thought it needed saving for the record.

We couldn’t agree with her more.

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  1. 02 10 17 10:57

    The accidental truth | speymouth

277 to “The accidental truth”

  1. Lollysmum says:

    Can see that 14 seconds piece of film getting huge amounts of use in the coming months.

  2. skintybroko says:

    Well spotted, bet she back tracks on that if asked about Catalonia, but then we don’t expect the MSM to ask really difficult questions.

  3. Socrates MacSporran says:

    But, Stewart, she was speaking of good, decent, hard working, just getting by, English families, church-going Conservative Party voters, who appreciate the Union Flag, the Empire, the Church of England and all things English.

    They can be more or less trusted to vote Tory. The same democratic rights cannot be given to vile separatist subsidy junkie “Sweaties”, who have to be protected from themselves by kind, Nanny England. Why, on their own, they woud squander any money they got from floating on a sea of the wrong type of oil; just to show how ungrateful and spiteful they were, they would turn their back on Mother England and throw in their lot with louche foreigners in Europe.

    No, no, Tory democracy for England, but, the Scots have to be kept in servile chains – some day, they will realise it is for their own good. They need the strong and stable leadership which only the English Conservative Party can offer them.

  4. defo says:

    Excepting rebellious Scots. Obvs

  5. Muscleguy says:

    But is Nicola listening? NOW, after the scenes in Catalonia is absolutely the time for the SNP govt to once more formally ask No10 for the right to hold a referendum.

    Make May refuse while Catalonia is front and centre.

    But will it happen? I’m not bating my breath.

  6. galamcennalath says:

    She’s not the sharpest pencil in the box, which we knew already.

    Still, good to get that little gem on record.

    So, we can take it that when the Scottish Government desires Edinburgh Agreement 2, it will be forthcoming without hesitation? Aye, right.

  7. Ken500 says:

    Gone before long. Lame duck squawking. Frightful.

    When people have the opportunity to vote.

  8. Calum McKay says:

    Its always different for Scots, now it seems we are not alone, Catalans and Kurds too are different.

    Voting is encouraged everywhere except where large countries dominate smaller neighbour’s?

    It’s neo-colonialism!

  9. heedtracker says:

    It was held to crush any Brexit opposition. Instead of actually getting on with massive Leave negotiations, we got one more tory catastrofuck, albeit their worst for a while, unless you’re DUP.

    If they DO try and block Scots ref2…its always different in their Scotland region though, always.

  10. louis.b.argyll says:

    Aye,that clip’s a keeper.

  11. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “But, Stewart”


  12. winifred mccartney says:


    Well that says it all – except if you are Scottish or Catalonian. Bullies united Spain and UK quite prepared to do anything to hold on to the golden calves.

    Lets call the yoons, goons fits them better, only we’re not laughing.

  13. heedtracker says:

    Colonel Ruth expresses her anger at our being “given the opportunity” to vote by the tories.

    Torcuil Crichton?Verified account @Torcuil 22h22 hours ago

    . @RuthDavidsonMSP “Catalonia shows how remarkable 2014 ref was, a free, fair vote recognised by both sides. I’m angry SNP demand a re-run”

  14. Grouse Beater says:

    Aye, Theresa May says things she doesn’t really mean, such as British governance being ‘strong and stable’ – that horse bolted off into the distance long before the stable door was locked.

    If anybody wants to know the parallels between Scottish independence and Catalan, or a little of Catalonia’s history, five minutes of your time will read it here:

  15. Col says:

    Any no voters moaning about indyref2 I just mention “Devo Max” that usually shuts them up. They know what’s coming and they know the bull shit will not wash this time. Refusing Scotland another indy ref is adding fuel to the fire but I reckon they will do it anyway. I hope this time that the gloves will come off and the so called union with the UK is exposed as the undemocratic joke that it truly is! They should be on the back foot this time. The usual shite will be beemed into your minds via the BBC of course but they will have a tough job with brexit looming. We just need to bind our time for the moment.

  16. Chick McGregor says:

    Duh. Just put out a largish post on the previous thread which is currently the last one there. as it is still on topic for this one, I reproduce it below.

    The big negative effect for the Madrid fascists is that with this action, they now come within the purview of both the ECHR and the ECJ under infringement of Freedom of Expression Law.

    If they had simply allowed the vote but then ignored it, those judicial bodies would have been unable to do anything.

    But now they must act because Madrid has violated the treaties which underpin the laws on Freedom of Expression and the treaties on which they are based and to which Spain is a signatory.

    I hope Europe goes at least as far as it can under standing procedures which would be fines for Spain and suspension of voting rights within the EU legislature.

    There is little doubt that their actions will also bring the Special Rapporteurs of the UN into action and the ICJ for violation of the ICCPR treaty.

    But we must not make the mistake of assuming this was just a matter of stupidity on the part of Madrid.

    By far their biggest fear was that a majority of the electorate in Catalan voted for independence, that would have over-ridden any claimed historic constitutional agreement and had to be avoided.

    Least of two devils from a Madrid viewpoint.

    Question is, would they be willing to go as far as the UK to hold on to their last colony by leaving the ECHR and EU?

    The UK and Spain are clearly working in cahoots and arguably also with Turkey (which has the Kurd problem).

    The frightening prospect of a new fascist axis of those old imperialist powers on the periphery of Europe looms.

    Imperialism can be viewed as a powerful drug and to continue that metaphor those three could be likened to those evicted from rehab for possession and use of drugs, albeit a small enough amount, to feed their habit but still be able to feign recovery.

  17. Rod Robertson says:

    Is that not one of those “except for viewers in Scotland “ moments

  18. gordoz says:

    Question is why are they so scared of democracy? Why is Ruth angry at SNP over 2nd ref.

    Are they scared of being drawn back towards project fear. Is the Spanish problem reminding them of their abusive past, their tendency to lash out. Ulster etc.
    You made me beat you ! Abusive partner syndrome.

    What’s at the root af all this ( the partition legacy ? )

    What proud moment is haunting the British State most do you think ?

    Anyone else having doubts about EU position, over this?
    I am. Not happy with the sense of ‘Some of us are more equal’
    waft – thru lack of comment. Most concerning & not good enough.

  19. heedtracker says:

    Is that not one of those “except for viewers in Scotland “ moments

    2014, britnat red and blue tories just assumed their Scotland region would vote for continuing whatever this UK actually is, a English region basically.

    Ref2 is really going to stretch their Project Fear abilities way beyond breaking point.

    Or is a big fat guy, currently loafing in a posh leafy Glasgow suburb, cooking up Project Fear 2.0? JK Trolling’s bettertogether money can’t last for ever.

    Blair McDougall?Verified account @blairmcdougall Sep 30

    Off to Barrhead Travel to book travel to a National Trust property where, in the cafe, I’ll enjoy a Tunnocks tea cake & a Highland Spring.

  20. Liz g says:

    Would be interesting to see if May thinks it’s a good idea for the EU to suspend Spain’s voting rights for two years.
    That would get them out of the way for Brexit and therefore they would not get a say in Gibraltar or more to the point a veto.

  21. Artyhetty says:

    UntRuth has seen this hasn’t she, surely. Treeza thinks it is not ever a, ‘mistake to give people the opportunity to vote’. Give. Those in Catalonia had to take the opportunity, peacefully but determinedly.

    The voters ‘give’, or rather lend their vote to a particular party, when ‘given’ the choice. Choices, the ‘opportunity’ to cast your vote, the freedom to choose, is what a democracy is meant to be. Scotland is not an exception to May’s rule of ‘giving people the opportunity’, is it?

    I would ask that question a 100 times. Is Scotland included in that statement Tereza May? Or does that kind of democracy not extend to Scotland, even though the people have clearly shown that is what they would like, to have the ‘opportunity’.

    With 100% of the UK and their pals’ media dictating their anti Scottish independence, day in day out, we know that that ‘opportunity’ is incredibly compromised before we even start.

    However, via the ballot box, Scotland has a mandate to call a 2nd referendum. Will Treeza May allow Scotland the unhindered, democratic ‘opportunity to vote’? I won’t hold my breath, she has lied massivley to the people before, with the meme, ‘there will be no snap election’.

  22. mogabee says:

    Damned by her own words!

    Wonder what it feels like to be watching yer back for the Tory back-stabbers? But then, Tories have always been pretty ruth-less when they see power and control slipping away. 😀

    (6 years eh? He just does not like your spelling) ;D 😀

  23. louis.b.argyll says:

    (unionist) @blairmcdougall Sep 30

    Off to Barrhead Travel to book travel to a National Trust property where, in the cafe, I’ll enjoy a Tunnocks tea cake & a Highland Spring.

    So, he admits to cannibalism. Shudders…

  24. heedtracker says:

    The Death of the shysters? Hope they take their massed ranks of beeb gimps with them, back to hell:D

    The outspoken John Strafford, from the Campaign for Conservative Democracy, predicted Armageddon for the Tories.

    Party membership, he said, had been allowed to decline below 100,000 nationally and 300 constituency associations had no more than 100 members – and no more than 10 of them were up for doing stuff or were activists.

    It was Mr Strafford who said this was “an utter, total disgrace”.

    “Eventually there will be no members left, and that will be the end, goodbye,” he claimed.

    A visibly angry Sir Eric Pickles, who has written a report on the party’s failure at the election, sarcastically congratulated him on “getting tomorrow’s headlines”.

    Say hello to Snatcher Thatcher when you get back to where you belong tory charmers.

  25. Rod Robertson says:

    Theresa May “if Scotch do have another Referendum it is just a pity we don’t have a brutal fascist Paramilitary Force we could call on

    Arelene Fraser on line 2 Prime Minister”

  26. Daisy Walker says:


    Re Mrs May getting the EU to suspend Spain… that would require Tactical and Statesman like thinking on the part of Mrs May and there has been very little evidence of that.

    Perhaps more likely, they will sell guns to the Spanish, so they can make a buck behind the scenes, and negotiate more mealy mouthed support/faint damning of Spain’s behaviour.

    I was deeply moved by the scenes from Catalan yesterday. How brave not to react in the face of such violence.

    And what times we live in with Social Media, and Camera Phones… a real game changer. If these had not been there, I dread to think of the cost of lives. The Riot Police were clearly conscious of being filmed.

    And so it goes, round and round, a clear democratic demand for self determination can only ever be sorted at the ballot box. The only choice is do you have a civil war first.

    The EU must act to prevent one.

    C’mon the Good Spanish, I know you’re out there, stand up for democracy. Stand up for peace.

    Peace and love to all;) Specially Smallaxe… thinking of you, best wishes.

  27. Jock Scot says:

    This would come back and bite her but imagine the Tories will do away with her before then and say she was just being a bit ‘saft’.

  28. heedtracker says:

    So, he admits to cannibalism. Shudders…

    Bliar needs a job basically. Loafing around for the last 5 years is bad for his mind and his waistline.

    Its odd that the great, nae historic and great architect of Scottish democracy’s downfall, hasn’t been given a job by even the beeb tory roasters in Pacific Quay, they have the budget, even for boxes of Tunnocks. Do they still do snowballs?

    Who is Hamish McRae?

    His Scotland region is still pretty shite says Hamish,

    “Without Catalonia, Spain would continue to be the fourth largest economy in the eurozone, after Germany, France and Italy, but it would be much weakened. By contrast Scotland’s share of UK GDP is 7.5 per cent, so in economic terms this is a much bigger deal for Spain than Scottish independence would be for the UK. You can see why they oppose a referendum.”

  29. Ottomanboi says:

    Some argue that there is no similarity between the historic Scottish and Catalan situations. There are some parallels.
    Put very simply, Catalonia was united with Aragon and later Castile as a result of dynastic marriages. The principality of Catalonia retained its language and administrative institutions.
    In the 17th century a revolt against ‘Spain’ led to an alliance with France which supported a Catalan republic. In the 18th century ‘Spain’ under the nueva planta enforced Castilian institutions and language throughout the territory. The Catalan parliament was abolished too.
    It was a dynastic link that brought Scotland into the personal union with England in 1603. That set the trajectory for the full union of 1707. Our institutions may have had some protection but Anglicization eroded much of their identity and we all speak the ‘Inglis leid nou’.
    North Britain was born.

  30. Marie Clark says:

    What a hypocritical auld bag. Typical flamin tories.

    They all appear to be absolutely shit scared of letting the voters vote.

    Mind you, I don’t think she’ll be in post much longer anyway.

    I note that with the msm Catalonia seems to have slipped well down the agenda. Tory Party conference, who gives a toss about that exactly, big bunch o’ liars tellin mair lies. Monarch Airlines going burst, the mass shooting in Las Vegas etc.

    Caring, sharing people, aren’t they. NOT.

  31. Les Wilson says:

    She forgot to say, except Scotland. Still a good one to have on record, it might assist us when the time comes.

  32. Doug Bryce says:

    Even today Mrs May tries to bend the recent general election result…

    “Theresa May says election result in Scotland ‘saved the union”

    However such claims are a soft coup on democracy. ~

    1) The SNP won majority of Westminster seats in Scotland.
    2) The SNP / Greens maintain a pro independence majority at Holyrood (who were elected in 2016 on manifesto pledge to hold a second referendum in this circumstance).

    The election result of 2017 does not democratically allow the Tories to block a second referendum – they only won 13 seats!! Indeed Nicola has democratic mandate up until 2021…

  33. schrodingers cat says:

    European Commission?Verified account @EU_Commission
    Under Spanish Constitution, vote in #Catalonia was not legal. As @JunckerEU reiterated: internal matter to be dealt in line w/ Const. order.
    Replying to @EU_Commission @JunckerEU

    Legal position: If referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Const. = territory leaving would find itself outside of EU.
    Beyond purely legal aspects: the Commission believes that these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation.
    European Commission?Verified account @EU_Commission 38m38 minutes ago

    We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics.

    eu getting pelters on twitter at the moment from all sides, including snp members and yes supporters

    efta anyone? 🙂

  34. galamcennalath says:

    Is it not truly astonished that TMay doesn’t seem to exercise control over her government? Weak leadership from an incompetent individual.

    ” The battle raging between the two camps threatens to tear the government apart …. Officials believe it may be impossible for the PM to square off the competing demands of those in her cabinet demanding the freedom to diverge from Brussels’ regulations and those urging May not to endanger the U.K. economy. “

    Of course the great tartan elephant in the corner is not referred to in this article. It rarely is.

    Everyone knows that a hard Brexit means IndyRef2 which threatens the very existence of their UK.

    It all comes down to just how far are the Tory factions willing to go. Risk the economy and Union? Or risk the Tory Pary? Ultimately, if one faction doesn’t get it’s way it could split away and find others who back their stance. And that could be either faction.

    If the soft faction doesn’t want to risk the economy and Union, would they ally with everyone else in WM?

    If the hard faction insist on ‘taking back control’, would they ally with UKIP and shift even further right?

    May seems completely incapbable of resolving this.

  35. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Dear Rev. Campbell,

    A bit touchy are we this morning? All I can say is, I’ve had a hectic weekend, I’ve got a very sore back, my daughters are driving me crazy. it’s Jackie Baillieing down outside and the dogs want walked, Kilmarnock have just parted company with their manager, my junior team lost again on Saturday.

    Catalonia is in turmoil, Colonel Yadaftie is all over the papers and the media, the Tories are pretending all is bliss, happiness and peace and good will – and you’re getting concerned about me mis-spelling your name.


  36. Is there any redeeming qualities to Theresa May?
    She must be the most hopelessly incompetent wooden
    PM I have seen in my life time.

    Promoted beyond her capabilities, parrots sound
    bites and has difficultly thinking on her feet
    answering questions.

    And this is the PM whom Corbyn couldn’t even beat in
    this years general election.

    Its not something I would draw attention to if I were

  37. misteralz says:

    Just taken my son back to school after lunch at home on a dismal day here in North Holland. Popped into the newsagent on the way back. Every single front page har large pictures of Lå Guardia Civil beating up peaceful folk and the accompanying headlines were damning. Just so you know…

  38. misteralz says:

    La, and has. Since Android’s latest update it can’t differentiate between spellings in different languages anymore. Grrr…

  39. heedtracker says:

    Jobs, jobs everywhere, in teamGB, even for Bliar MacDoublewhopper, when the JK Trolling dosh runs out.

    “I was struggling to think why wouldn’t a youngster from Glasgow without a job come down to the south to work for a farm for the summer with loads of gorgeous EU women working there?” Mackinlay said on Monday.

    “What’s not to like? Get on your bike and find a job.”

    Mackinlay said there was a “moral hazard” about current immigration rules which allowed EU citizens to leave their country to find work.”

    Toryboys and moral hazard, is probably todays great British oxymoron of the day too. God only knows what this roasters on about.

  40. Kiereann Mac GhillieMhoire says:

    Non-Hypothetical Question
    Posed to Theresa May by Andrew Marr 1-10-2017 @19.55 timestamp
    “… absolutely clear non-hypothetical question;
    You’ve apologised for aspects of the general election campaign but you did not have to call that election. Do you now think it was a mistake to call that election itself?”
    “I, no. Is it ever a mistake to give people the opportunity to vote? Ah … err … I don’t think so. I don’t think, I mean at this stage I wanted to see a different result and I’d hoped for a different result from that general election but what we must do now is learn from that general election. Take it, err take those lessons forward. That’s what I’m doing; it’s what government is doing. I think the key message from that election for me, one of the key messages, was that; obviously we didn’t get it across what we were doing in terms of a country that works for everyone and really wanting to build on that.
    I think that what we also saw from the election is that, as conservatives, the arguments that we thought we’d had and won during the 1980s about the importance of ‘Free Market Economies’, I think we thought that there was a general consensus on that and we now see that there wasn’t”
    “… and you were wrong.
    Ok. As a result of those mistakes you arrive here with diminished authority, your cabinet are fighting like rats in a sack. They’re briefing their papers and there’s one minister quoted today saying, either Theresa May sacks Boris Johnson for the way he has been behaving, or she’s out herself. Can we at least admit that there is a problem of authority within your cabinet?”

    ? more popcorn?

  41. Valerie says:

    @ Cat

    You beat me to it. Very weasel words, but I’m hanging fire as its the Commissioners statement, but we have to accept they speak for their countries.

    Merkel phoned Rajoy yesterday, apparently asking for explanations, so she gave him the heads up of her direction. Let’s hope her moral compass is strong on this, and she pushes for action.

  42. Robert Peffers says:

    @Muscleguy says: 2 October, 2017 at 10:08 am:

    ” … But will it happen? I’m not bating my breath.”

    Why ever not, Muscleguy? Who knows? You might just do yourself an injury and you wouldn’t want that now? Would you?

    Instead you would like us to get rid of that useless SNP government and that useless First Minister and get the rest of we Scottish Independence supporters into the same dire situation as the poor, but very, very brave, unarmed Catalans who are now being brutalised by the well armed and armoured Spanish heavy mob.

    So while the rest of us are getting duffed up by the SAS, SBS and maybe also the RAF Regiment dressed up in police uniforms you will be staying home and NOT holding your breath in case you harm yourself but meanwhile urging the rest of us to get stuck in about it and spilling our blood for Scotland.

    Is that your game, Muscleguy?

    The SG are trustworthy and to date have not put a foot wrong nor spilled a drop of anyone’s blood. It would be foolhardy to even attempt, a still chancy referendum, before we see the full extent of the, already begun, retreat from Brexit by the Brexiteers.

    Like the Labour Party at constant war with itself and the LibDems, with their new leaders and Wee Roothie, with her eyes on the UK Prime Minister’s job, the unionists parties are in an increasingly disorganised state. Now is NOT the time to hold a referendum on Scottish independence for the very good reason that it might well fail.

    Only the SNP SG, and more recently the YES movement, (many of whom are SNP members), have brought us this close to Scottish independence.

    Yet people like you are more vocal against them than even the UKippers and Tory/Labour/LibDem zoomers.

    Why would any sane person believe a numptie like you instead of the democratically elected leader of the only political party that actually puts Scotland and Scots needs first?

  43. gordoz says:

    @ shrodingers Cat

    Efta anyone ? My point earlier 🙂

    Seems SNP may have had ‘clairvoyant view’ re – position in light of this EU stance emerging already ?

    Maybe Nicola detected the BIG STATE “Some of us are more equal than others” position during her visits to EU.

  44. Valerie says:

    @ misteralz

    Thank you! I love when our international friends pop in, and give a view or report!

    It’s good to know because I would like to see pressure building to bring out the EU with an action plan against Madrids actions.

    Otherwise, it will be clear Scots see no reason to be part of the EU club, where Turkey is excluded on grounds of not meeting democratic requirements, but Madrid using rubber bullets, and more, is sanctioned.

    It makes no sense to me to see Barnier stand on principles of protecting EU citizens here, but turn a blind eye to EU citizens being terrorised for voting.

  45. schrodingers cat says:

    val, they speak for their countries……..if macron and merkle dont like what the eu commission says…… tough. boris speaks for the uk and I dont like what he says.

    There is never an excuse to not speak up for what you think is right. People must stand up for what they believe in, that includes the eu commission

    something broke yesterday, the europe we have known all our lives is about to disintegrate, indy movements across europe have become emboldened, change is coming.

  46. Scott says:

    I have noted that no comments on the Tory show and none on what Davidson has to say will this be the same at the SNP show or will BBC have comments on every thing said there,on saying but will be interesting to find out.
    Great to see the new bridge staying open and the First new stretch of A9 dual carriageway opens.

    Good SNP story.

    May will change her mind as Scotland is going to be run by the Col Ruth in a minority Government.

  47. heedtracker says:

    Well there we go, the union is saved, say the Times, who get worse and worse by the day. Who edits these rags now?

    Ruth Davidson would run a minority government at Holyrood after 2021 election
    Hamish Macdonell, Scottish Political Editor
    October 2 2017, 12:01am,
    The Times
    Ruth Davidson is preparing to “do an Alex Salmond” and run a minority administration at Holyrood if the Tories end up with the most seats after the next election.”

    That’s all the Times let you see without paying to look behind their paywall.

    So the next election must be Scotland’s in May 2021, where Colonel Ruth, who hid toxic tory branding last time, has to win say 24 more Scottish seats, for the tories.

    That’s a hell of a lot of work for all tory gimps in all Scottish newsrooms, let alone England’s.

  48. Robert Peffers says:

    @Calum McKay says: 2 October, 2017 at 10:15 am:

    “Its always different for Scots, now it seems we are not alone, Catalans and Kurds too are different.”

    There are others, Calum.

    Belgium’s Flemish separatist party, the New Flemish Alliance (NVA), has now emerged as the largest force in Belgium’s parliament and there are coalition talks.

    The NVA, whose ultimate aim is independence for Flanders, Belgium’s northern half, took 27 of 150 seats. While the Socialists from the southern half, Wallonia, came second.

    In fact most Scots would be surprised at just how many other independence movements there are in Europe.

    Here’s a link to a listing of, “Separatist”, movements there are in Europe:-

  49. gordoz says:

    Love this from Paul Mason twitter / Placard pic in Catalonia marches.

    “If you elect a clown, expect a circus”

    Tory conference anyone ?????

    (Well it was new to me)

  50. Welsh Sion says:

    News from the Western Colonies, re Catalunya:

    Fud Minister, Carwyn Jones (Labour) tweets,

    “Horrific scenes on the streets of #Catalonia today. When violence replaces democracy and dialogue there are no winners.”

    (Bad guys on both sides, a la Trump, anyone?)

    In contrast …

    Leanne Wood (Leader, Plaid Cymru), in support of Nicola Sturgeon,

    “Well said @NicolaSturgeon. Any other party leaders prepared to condemn the violence today in #Catalonia? Anyone? Anywhere in Europe?”

  51. heedtracker says:

    There is never an excuse to not speak up for what you think is right. People must stand up for what they believe in, that includes the eu commission

    Good quote from facebook. Its all happening now.

    “There’s no doubt now as to why the Tories kept their mouths shit today. Spanish owned Scottish Power are substantial contributors to the conservatives, and as can be seen from the photo (thanks to Allan) they are major sponsors of their party conference.”

    Presumably “shit” means shut but it works though, tory wise. It comes with a photo Mrs May and Colonel Ruth plonked in front of a Scottish Power PR poster, hanging next to their dreary Scottish Unionist and Conservative poster.

    Why are the gits calling themselves something different when they get to Carlisle? who knows.

  52. schrodingers cat says:


    Pete Wishart?Verified account @PeteWishart 2h2 hours ago

    This Tory conference has all the atmosphere of a poorly attended humanist funeral for someone no one much cared for…

  53. David McDowell says:

    The police brutality in Catalonia has backfired spectacularly on the Spanish fascist Rajoy and his psychopathic bully boys.
    Hilarious watching BBC presenters wondering if they could get away with saying the violence was “acceptable” before deciding even they couldn’t spin pensioners being flung around like rag dolls.

  54. Macart says:

    And ain’t that the truth?

    For the hard of arithmetic or Yoons in general. The best mandate of any legislature in the UK is the SNP Scottish Government. Not only do they have the best democratic mandate in the UK. On current record to date,they aren’t afraid to offer their electorate choice.

    That’s democracy boys n’ girls. It is ever changing with time and circumstance. It’s not and never has been a ‘one off’ deal. A moment frozen in time forever more or a January sale special offer.

    ‘Now is not the time’ ain’t good enough and never will be. I dare say that an indyref would be a tad inconvenient for Ms May and an intransigent support tbf. How and ever, it’s far more accurate to say that now is always the time in a functioning democracy where and when there is a need. Some wrongs always need righting and some events and circumstances require the will of a population, not a dictatorial few.

    Your democracy and your system of government either works for all or it doesn’t. It is either satisfactory and fit for purpose or it is not. As a leader, you are either confident to test the popularity of your system or you’re not. More importantly, whether you are confident of your system or not, it is your duty as leader of a (so called) democratic state to protect your population’s right to choose.

    Just sayin’ for our policy wonk visitors like, but democracy isn’t a serving suggestion. You use it, or you lose it.

  55. schrodingers cat says:

    its from michael sheen’s speech, ive posted link many times

  56. ronnie anderson says:

    Alun Cairns ( welsh sec ) Scotland’s Oil & Gas makes a good contribution to the UK economy ( or something such like ) . We better watch out when the Tories start telling the truth .

  57. mike cassidy says:


    One minute of BBC’s Daily Politics

    And Jo Coburn saying the police were trying to keep the peace in Catalonia

    while showing some of their brutality

    then trying to get Michael Fallon to condemn it

    and he says he deplores what is in the footage

    but respects the Spanish government ……blah blah

    Couldn’t the bbc come with some sort of health warning?

  58. galamcennalath says:

    Just found out this is the second day of the Tory Party Conference. Can’t say I had noticed.

  59. Graemeo Rab says:

    May and the British State are super confident that they can get away with anything in Scotland.The compliant media is their baton and shield.
    Do any Unionists in Scotland really feel they could replicate IndyRef1 result if Scotland even had the equivalent of Catalonia’s 15% or so media control and didnae have the backing of their Big mates abroad.
    I think not.
    I think with a fair playing field of Sorts Unionists would act similar to Unionist Spain and just like in Catalonia The Despot’s Hand will be revealed.

  60. Jack Murphy says:

    Catalonia yesterday. The image that will never ever die!!

    Defiance in the face of overwhelming force.

    Catalan Firefighters protect peaceful voters from the Spanish Riot Police.

    One photo:

  61. Welsh Sion says:

    ronnie anderson says:
    2 October, 2017 at 1:04 pm
    Alun Cairns ( welsh sec ) Scotland’s Oil & Gas makes a good contribution to the UK economy ( or something such like ) . We better watch out when the Tories start telling the truth .


    The moment the Minister for Western Colonies speaks the truth, I’ll identify a low-flying pig. In the meantime, the only porkies available will be those revealed when Cairns opens his mouth. (Pun intended.)

    Yours aye,

  62. Dr Jim says:

    Ooops! An is this going out in Scotland moment, quick do the voice over “Except for viewers in Scotland who will have their own programme” that nobody wants, designed produced and directed in England containing English content and political opinion but paid for by Scotland

    Over to you Dimbleby somewhere in England in our Scottish paid for studio filled with hand picked right wing audience members local loonies and a panel of UKIP Tory and other right wing Scotland haters and a lone dissenter whom we can monster to pass the time if somebody asks a pertinent question

    That’s the way to do it!

  63. heedtracker says:

    Never needed re-ignition RT. Wouldn’t trust that lot any more than massed ranks of beeb gimpery either though.

  64. heedtracker says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    2 October, 2017 at 1:02 pm
    its from michael sheen’s speech, ive posted link many times

    Tories, red and blue keep the middle and upper classes safe and secure. And then they are rewarded with their vote. This is the bizarro new world order of new New Corbynista Labour, in that they have no chance of getting middle England to vote for them. SNP sussed that a long time ago, if only because middle and upper class Scotland is lot scarcer on the ground up here than over the border.

    Middle class middle aged Londoners are all property millionaires. This middle England wealth accumulation does begin to thin out as you head oop north but its still very high across England. Its why for example, they all dont mind their children now paying uni fees.

    The task ahead for bbc Scotland gimp network, is to brainwash Scots into thinking Corbyn’s going to be a better deal for them, in the UK.

    But old JC ain’t ever going to get in to No.10. If he couldnt do this year, he wont do it in his mid 70’s.

  65. Robert Graham says:

    just because cuella of mayhem decrees ruthie saved her union , as much as she wishes it or stamps her feet it hasn’t happened

    next bbc on police scotland surprise .next will be the scottish health service in terminal decline no doubt .

    bbc reporter in spain showed clips of crowds before the vote conveniently omitting the disgraceful scenes yesterday when over 700 people were injured.surprised he missed them as they cover every newspaper front page today .

    fluffy gets his usual you aint getting a referendum bit ,with no right of reply , just fluffy bumping his gums .

    fluffy followed the clip from spain with no sense of irony , that was the line the spanish government followed with results for all to see ,this link was lost on the bbc .

  66. heedtracker says:


    European Commission
    17 mins ·
    Under the Spanish Constitution, yesterday’s vote in Catalonia was not legal.

    For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.

    We also reiterate the legal position held by this Commission as well as by its predecessors. If a referendum were to be organised in line with the Spanish Constitution it would mean that the territory leaving would find itself outside of the European Union.

    Beyond the purely legal aspects of this matter, the Commission believes that these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation.

    We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics. We trust the leadership of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to manage this difficult process in full respect of the Spanish Constitution and of the fundamental rights of citizens enshrined therein.”

    That, “these are times for unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation” makes it clear they are completely against Catalonia going indy.

  67. schrodingers cat says:

    events yesterday have reshaped the landscape

    if referendums are not illegal in the uk, westminster cant send in heavy mob to stop indyref2 happening and then expect eu support.

    thge eu seems to be holding to the point that the catalunian ref was illegal to not condemn spain.

    cant see that position working here

  68. heedtracker says:

    Laura Kuenssberg?Verified account

    Average age of tory party is apparently 71
    4:36 am – 2 Oct 2017

    Its only 9 in dog years though.

  69. starlaw says:

    The EU cannot accept Catalonia as an independent country until it actually is.
    I do not know the legal position on this but if Catalonia does become a completely independent country. Then the EU will view it as such.
    Scotland is a different ball game, we are already a country The UK is registered at the UN as Two countries, One Principality and One Province.

  70. schrodingers cat says:

    holding indyref2 without a section 30 order is possible. in the absence of a uk gendarm or gardia civil, it would be difficult to stop it with force.

    as for the result, westminster could refuse to accept a yes win, but any pretence of this union being a union of equals would disappear.

    i’m not sure there would be much support in england for WM to do that either

  71. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 11:57,

    Well, that was a cheap shot.

    But if you (or anyone else on Twitter insisting on a quick fix) think that wee Liechenstein is going to resolve the Catalan independence situation, good luck with that!

  72. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:

    European Commission … call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue.

    My understanding is that the current situation has been reached because Rajoy has refused to enter into dialogue. I suspect the majority of Catalans will now feel things have moved on!

    Annoying that so much reporting, comment, and official statements treat the two sides equally. FFS one side was trying to vote democratically with flowers in their hands, while the other side was hitting them over the head with batons.

    Madrid should have let the vote go ahead peacefully and without interference then entered into constitutional talks in a civilised mature fashion. Even better, they should have been talking years ago.

    Spanish Nationalists are clearly just like British Nationalists, they just cannot take on board that not everyone shares their view about what ‘the nation’ actually is.

  73. katsoft says:

    Sort of on topic I hope.
    Was half listening to Hammond’s speech lunchtime.
    Was sure I heard him talk about financial and political freedom being linked. Unfortunately didn’t get it taped. It was about 3/4 mins into speech. And it sounded like an unthought comment aka may on more. Would be interested if anyone else heard it or better has caught it and can reproduce it, thanks

  74. schrodingers cat says:

    craig murray’s latest vlog,

    he made some good points, not that i agree with everything he says but this i support.

    scotland should declare itself independent immediately after a yes vote in indyref2. we negotiate with westminster as an already independent country, no waiting around for 18 months until negotiations with WM are complete

  75. Glamaig says:

    starlaw says:
    2 October, 2017 at 2:09 pm
    ‘The UK is registered at the UN as Two countries, One Principality and One Province.’

    does anybody have a link to this document please? been looking for it on UN website with no success

  76. Petra says:

    The Tory Conference doesn’t seem to be going as planned (with a marked lack of footage on the protests taking place outside) and there’s a GREAT deal of negative speculation about the party’s future on programmes today. Basically saying that the Tories look as though they’re heading for the stank due to Brexit / austerity cuts / policies, with far fewer people attending the Conference and membership plummeting with the average age of supporter being age 72.

    Meanwhile one of the youngsters demonstrates that if she was chocolate she would eat herself. The wee wummin that won seats based on avoiding any mention of her actually being a Tory, avoided mentioning any of the abhorrent Tory (her) policies, went out of her way to get OO types on board and seemed to have a bottomless pit of (dark?) money to spend. No mention, like Corbyn, of the impact of her party’s catastrophic Brexit on the UK, more so Scotland, and yet they all think that she’s the cat’s pyjamas.

    Starts off with ”Poor David Mundell holding the line on his own?” I’m sure that she was desperate to add ”thin, red.”

    There they go. How they see themselves. Mundell, Davidson et all.

    ‘Ruth Davidson: Speech to Conservative Party Conference 2017.’

    Chunky Mark’s opinion of the Tories.


    Any update on Catalonia? I hate to say it but I don’t see Madrid letting them go so easily. If so they stand to lose other areas of Spain such as the Balearics, Canary Islands, Basque region etc (which they probably will do eventually). And what about Gibraltar?

    They wont recognise the validity of the outcome of the Referendum. Rajoy, or more likely his successor, may actually challenge the vote by invoking article 155 of the Spanish constitution which allows the Spanish government to step in and take control of an autonomous region if it “does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the constitution or other laws, or acts in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the general interest of Spain”.

    The Catalonians, I’m sure, will get their freedom eventually but not before they suffer even more strife and during that time more enraged, ‘radical’ pro-Independence supporters will fall into the trap of behaving ‘badly’. Exactly what the Franco fascists will want to see happen now. Just my opinion of course and I sincerely hope I’m wrong.

  77. Dan Huil says:

    The people of Catalonia have shown courage. Now it’s our turn.

  78. schrodingers cat says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    schrodingers cat @ 11:57,

    Well, that was a cheap shot.
    But if you (or anyone else on Twitter insisting on a quick fix) think that wee Liechenstein is going to resolve the Catalan independence situation, good luck with that!


    eh? cheap? how?

    what’s Lichtenstein got to dae wi’ the price o’ cheese?

  79. heedtracker says:

    Spanish Nationalists are clearly just like British Nationalists, they just cannot take on board that not everyone shares their view about what ‘the nation’ actually is.

    The problem with that statement on Facebook from the EU commissioners is clearly that they are deliberately ignoring the Spanish brutality towards people who were breaking the law, if you accept that Spanish law was being broken.

    When you have the EU pretending that that kind of state violence inflicted on defenceless EU citizens yesterday, they can shove their EU up their big fat rancid arseholes, hard.

    Government for the people by the people, not a pack of sneaky shits in Brussels, covering the backs of neo fascists in Spain.

    The EU’s been very vocally opposed to Polish political events lately. For them now to come out with that statement in Spain…

  80. galamcennalath says:

    schrodingers cat says:

    Scotland should declare itself independent immediately after a yes vote

    I definitely now agree with that. Looking at the Brexit ‘negotiations’. In talks with a not yet independent Scotland, WM wouldn’t agree on anything and would keep trying to kick decisions into the future. Immediate Indy and then that would focus rUK minds.

    Mind you, Brexit talks and Indy talks would have something in common. In neither case would the UK/rUK side have much to bargain with!

    I’m not quite sure what Scotland would want from rUK, shared assets maybe, but then in reality debt will probably be traded against shared assets.

    The rUK will try to keep Trident on site for a period. What do they have we would want in return for that? Significant cash payments to set up the new offices and apparatus of state?

    The more I think about it, the simpler the separation seems!

  81. schrodingers cat says:

    Glamaig says:
    2 October, 2017 at 2:26 pm

    starlaw says:
    2 October, 2017 at 2:09 pm
    ‘The UK is registered at the UN as Two countries, One Principality and One Province.’


    i’m not sure if this is really relevant, the uk is a union, if yes wins indyref2, with or without a section 30, i cant see what would stop nicola declaring independence? I also cant see much support in england to refuse it either.

    regardless of legal technicalities

  82. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    heedtracker @ 13:59,

    No the European Commission (not “the EU”) doesn’t want to have to deal with the consequences of an independent Catalonia, that’s clear. Why would they?

    The re-shaping of borders within the EU is a potential legalistic pain-in-the-butt that they have been desperately trying to dodge ever since it became an issue. Primarily because the EU consists of a bunch of nation states which all guard their borders and sovereignity very jealously.

    Which is why the EC (not “the EU”) can only react by a retreat into officialspeak by claiming that an independent Catalonia would in the first instance be outside the EU.

    And very carefully doesn’t say that it would almost certainly become a full member in its own right very shortly thereafter, whatever.

    This issue of the right to self-determination won’t go away, and it’s going to have to be properly addressed full-on by Europe one of these days. Maybe Catalonia (and sadly not us) will be the one to trigger that necessary re-evaluation.

    Meanwhile, the EC itself doesn’t have the power to do anything even if it wanted to. It doesn’t have an army to order in, does it? The nation state of Spain has the sovereignity, and no-one else. The EU has no sovereignity, despite what the anti-EU mob keep claiming (except when they’re paradoxically also shouting that “something must be done!”). It’s Spain which has the locus to sort it out, one way or another.

    That doesn’t mean that nothing can be done. The Madrid government has flouted all the norms of a modern civilised society, and can – and must – be made to account for that in the courts of Europe, just as it already has in the court of public opinion all across Europe. (BritNats excepted, of course.)

  83. schrodingers cat says:


    WM would take all debts and assets, no question, it would need to if it wanted to be the successor state, without which, it would lose its permanent seat on the un and much more along with that.

    the dent to its pride would be too much to bear, no, the ruk will defo want to be the successor state at all costs

  84. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 14:30,

    A cheesy reply if ever there was one!

    You win non-sequitur prize of the day, for sure.

  85. Jack Murphy says:

    The Flagpole on Edinburgh Castle has snapped in two,due to high winds,and no it’s not the fault of the Scottish Government or Nicola Sturgeon.

    The Flagpole flies the Union Flag and is maintained by the Ministry of Defence.

  86. schrodingers cat says:


    the eu is, presently, a union of states, holland, belgium, france, germany, italy, spain etc, all of which face the same problem as spain and the uk. they are the main members and as such the eu protects their interests.

    but a new europe is coming, one where all of these super countries are replaced by smaller nation states, eg catalunia, basque, galicia etc.

    it will need to negotiate these upheavals to survive. the eu commission should have taken a leaf out of macron and merkle’s book and said nothing

  87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 14:16,
    galamcennalath @ 14:34,

    I don’t understand this thinking at all. I have always taken it as read that as soon as a “yes” win was declared we would de facto be independent from that moment on. No formal declaration needed.

    (Though not unwelcome either.)

    How could it be otherwise? Only a fully-sovereign body could possibly negotiate on Scotland’s behalf.

  88. CameronB Brodie says:

    Rod Robertson
    When I left my flat to attend a pre-indyref14 rally in Edinburgh, I opened the close door to find a platoon of riot cops ready for trouble. The ones I spoke too had Themes valley accents.

  89. schrodingers cat says:

    sorry but I’m right out of cheese based non-sequitur prizes robert, for sure.

  90. Robert Louis says:

    Jack Murphy at 246pm

    In times of old we would take that as a sign. The union is broken, let Scotland be free from London’s chains.

    Let’s hope they don’t replace it. I utterly despise that cursed union jack on top of the castle. It is an abomination, a symbol of British English colonial rule over Scotland.

  91. Giving Goose says:

    Something that dropped out of the Catalonian crisis is the apparent lack of action from the EU.
    I’ve heard Brexiteers pointing out that this is another failure of the EU and using this as yet more evidence to bash the EU.

    But does the “lack” of action from the EU not actually illustrate the point that the EU cannot interfere in a member state’s internal affairs, in this case Spain; and does this not completely undermine one of the key Brexit arguments about the EU interfering in member states internal business?

    It seems that the Brexiteers may be confused or are developing a rather bizarre case of having their cake and eating it.

  92. schrodingers cat says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    2 October, 2017 at 2:48 pm

    schrodingers cat @ 14:16,
    galamcennalath @ 14:34,

    I don’t understand this thinking at all. I have always taken it as read that as soon as a “yes” win was declared we would de facto be independent from that moment on. No formal declaration needed.

    (Though not unwelcome either.)

    How could it be otherwise? Only a fully-sovereign body could possibly negotiate on Scotland’s behalf.

    I think craig murrays point was about the time delay, 18 months i believe from yes winning indyref1 and officially declaring independence.
    This time, it should happen immediately after a yes vote. scotland negotiates with wm as an independent country

  93. heedtracker says:

    Meanwhile, the EC itself doesn’t have the power to do anything even if it wanted to. It doesn’t have an army to order in, does it?

    By ignoring the Spanish police behaviour yesterday, the EC commision can go to hell basically. Yes voters and vote organisers broke Spanish law. Maybe they contravened EU rules. I dont know. But by ignoring the level of violence used by the Spanish police yesterday, the EU commissioners are telling us, and every other state that this police violence is entirely acceptable and legal.

    I dont think it was, ergo, the EU can go and get fcuked, as far as I am concerened. Maybe the Leave voters of the UK have done us a favour and we are well rid of these appalling characters that wrote that EC commission’s statement. Because above all else, you can bet anything you like, every last neo fascist politico thug across the EU is reading it too and coming to the exact same conclusions as Rajoy.

    But that’s just me. I didnt have my fingers broken one by one yesterday afternoon, by heavily armoured cops, for standing in a queue to vote, in fucking Europe, 1st Oct 2017, not nazi Germany, 1937.

  94. schrodingers cat says:

    Giving Goose

    it isnt the lack of action people are complainig about, it is the lack of rhetoric. with or without the necessary powers, the EU still has a tongue in its heid

    on the subject of powers, i agree with verhoftstadt, the eu needs to federalise, chose a president, create a combined military force etc, to give it the clout to enforce its will.

    but further eu integration for an independent scotland is an issue for after we are independent

  95. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 14:52,

    Au contraire, dear cat, you are accumulating them extremely rapidly! =laugh=

  96. dramfineday says:

    Anent your Flag pole comment at 2.46 (quiet hoot)…..looking out my window I can see two huge ones still flying at Redford barracks and one smaller one in a neighbours garden (fervent no voter). Harrumph

  97. auldhighlander says:

    Oh oh! She just dropped a real clanger there and I bet it comes back to haunt her big time.

  98. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m in favour of soon after referendum independence declaration. Slovenia had a referendum on 23rd December 1990, result on 26th December, obliged to declare independence in 6 months, did so on 25th June 1991. Gives 6 months to get the statehood stuff in place.

    Good enough for me! We’re not as devolved as Slovenia was, same with Czech Republic and Slovakia who parted virtually overnight, but were federal already.

  99. schrodingers cat says:

    les gros fromages dans l’UE sont foutu

    if they support madrid, they lose barcalona
    if they support barcalona, they lose madrid

    a no win situation.

    unionist support the madrid option.
    yessers support barcalona

    tying indyref2 to EFTA membership is now the better option

  100. Derick fae Yell says:

    The Cat

    ‘EFTA’ Yes, obviously.

    But not because of Catalonia, because an going into a referendum with an ‘EU; position won’t WIN! The unhappy 11%, remember. To large a group to not have on board.

    And because re-joining the Single Market via A49 of Lisbon and the EU is simply too slow, at 2 to 3 years. Too long to be out of the Single Market.

    EFTA could be joined in a month, tops. And the EEA in 6 months.

  101. Petra says:

    @ Schrodingers cat says at 2:35 pm …. ”i’m not sure if this is really relevant, the uk is a union, if yes wins indyref2, with or without a section 30, i cant see what would stop nicola declaring independence? I also cant see much support in england to refuse it either. Regardless of legal technicalities.”

    That’s the one factor that we’ve got on our side, SC. The MSM have done such an amazing job using their propaganda machine that many numpties down south think that we are a massive drain on their economy, unlike the Spaniards who are well aware of the wealth of Catalonia and the financial impact it’ll have on them if they lose the country. Someone actually posted statistics on here yesteday to the effect that a high percentage of Brexiteers don’t give a damn if the Union splits up.

    The Spanish Constitution “is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.” Solidarity among them all? Aye right.

    Scotland on the other hand is a country, a Kingdom, that is part of a Union that has no written Constitution at all. The only ‘thing’ that binds us is the Act of Union of 1707 which could be scrapped. End of.


    You have to laugh at ”Now is not the time” Theresa May who repeatedly stated that she wouldn’t hold an Election … ”Now is not the time” … then did. What a hypocrite. Are we Scots honestly going to sit back and continue to put up with this?


    The Sunday Herald was excellent yesterday. Credit where credit is due. I’ve mentioned a number of articles previously and have just got round to reading another couple on Catalonia … ‘The ghost of Franco hovers over Catalonia’s Independence Referendum’ and Scourge of Madrid: the guitar-playing President of Catalonia.’


    Biggest mass shooting in US history. Dreadful. Over 50 dead and 400 injured at a Country and Western concert in Las Vegas. Some hellish scenes. Trump should take note that this atrocity was carried out by a 62 year old white male who didn’t even have a criminal record.

  102. schrodingers cat says:

    Derick fae Yell
    agreed, personally, i would like an indy scotland as a full member of the eu but I dont think we could afford to be outside the single market for any great length of time.

    even if we did tie indyref2 to eu membership, we would need some sort of caveat whereby we immediately entered/re-entred the single market the moment a yes vote was announced, which would probably be via efta membership anyway

    staying outside the single marketr while we spent 2 years negotiating full eu membership isnt an option

  103. schrodingers cat says:

    Derick fae Yell

    i also agree that tying indyref2 to efta membership has a better chance of winning than tying it to eu membership for the reasons you pointed out

  104. schrodingers cat says:

    another fromage based non-sequitur prize is in the post 🙂

  105. Petra says:

    @ Robert Louis says at 2:54 pm …. ”In times of old we would take that as a sign. The union is broken, let Scotland be free from London’s chains. Let’s hope they don’t replace it. I utterly despise that cursed union jack on top of the castle. It is an abomination, a symbol of British English colonial rule over Scotland.”

    Don’t worry Robert. Thousands of us will jump at the chance of volunteering to wheech them doon the day after the next Referendum. Then of course we can stand at the border and sell them on for a profit. Make money to buy enough Saltires to flood the country. Oh and, eh, some paper hankies to hand out to what will be the greetin faced Unionists.

  106. schrodingers cat says:

    Petra says:
    That’s the one factor that we’ve got on our side, SC. The MSM have done such an amazing job using their propaganda machine that many numpties down south think that we are a massive drain on their economy,
    yup, i think it’s called being Hoisted by your own petard Petra
    hell mend them 🙂

  107. IZZIE says:

    O/T A house at Elliot just outside Arbroath is flying the Catalan flag today. I hope others follow.

  108. Petra says:

    From Wee Ginger Dug:

    ‘The Internationale – Scottish Labour version.’

    A reworking of the Labour anthem the Internationale for all those Scottish Labour people who were acting on social media yesterday as apologists for the brutality of the Spanish state. Internationalists my arse.

    The worker’s flag is deepest red,
    but this song’s just a figurehead,
    Cos when the people fight the state
    SLab cheers for what the state dictates.

    Let’s raise the bloodied batons high!
    Cheer as the rubber bullets fly.
    Catalans may flinch and Scot nats sneer,
    Labour backs the police in riot gear.

    Barcelona’s bloodied under Spanish might
    while the people’s party denies the right
    of the people to decide their fate
    and Labour hacks cheer Rajoy’s hate.

    Conference songs about solidarity
    only mask the cruel reality
    Scottish Labour will be the friend
    of the establishment right to the end

    We’re Scottish Labour and what we do
    is to keep Scotland’s flag red white and blue.
    We may fight like ferrets in a sack
    but we’ll keep the Tories on your back.

    AND ……

    ‘The day that Spain died.’

  109. Legerwood says:

    Petra @ 3.32pm

    You mean the Treaty of Union of 1707.

    The English tend to call it the Act of Union but there were several Acts of Union, two of which ratified the Treaty of Union. One Act passed by the Scots Parliament and one by the English Parliament.

    The Treaty of Union 1707 is a treaty within International law.

  110. heedtracker says:

    ‘The day that Spain died.’

    The day the EU died, or nearly dead.

  111. schrodingers cat says:

    The Shoe Is The Sign

    the yes movement needs to inject some humour into the campaign 🙂

    by the way, during the occupation by germany of france 1941-45, people marching down the camps elysee on the 14th of july carried a fishing rod over each shoulder. an old french custom they told the nazis.

    nb, modern french for fishing rod is Cannes à pêche, old french for fishing rod is “galle”

  112. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Glamaig at 2:26 pm.

    You quoted and asked,

    “starlaw says:
    2 October, 2017 at 2:09 pm
    ‘The UK is registered at the UN as Two countries, One Principality and One Province.’

    does anybody have a link to this document please? been looking for it on UN website with no success”

    I don’t know if anyone has posted a link to an actual UN document. I can offer you this…

    Wales Is A Country, Not a Principality – Official

    Plaid Cymru’s Leanne Wood has succeeded in getting Wales’ status as a country confirmed in the eyes of the international community.

    The South Wales Central AM has successfully lobbied for Wales to be given ‘country’ status after it was pointed out to her that an influential newsletter for the international community conferred principality status upon Wales.

    That’s a quote from a full article at:-
    dating from summer, 2011.

    It appears that the International Standards Organisation had referred to Wales as a Principality in ISO 3166-2.

    However, ISO has updated since then, as you can see at the link below. Wales is now referred to as a country.

  113. Scott says:

    Quote from Col Davidson

    “What I would say is, I have a lot of my MSPs at this conference, if any of you think of writing anything without telling me that is counter to current Scottish Conservative policy, you are out on your ear because no one is unsackable.”

    Why then did she not sack her councillors instead of telling her lies about them on TV

  114. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Families and communities in Ireland have been going through a ‘Truth & Reconciliation’ process for many years now.

    Will we have to do the same thing in Scotland, twenty, thirty years hence?

    Why not just have done with it, spare abody the deaths, terror and pain, and let us go?

    FFS, WM, just admit that the ba’s on the slates and let us leave peacefully, eh?

  115. heedtracker says:

    EU commison are a pack of sleaze bags basically, but all kinds of yoons and Britnats in Scotland, that idiot Hothersall’s for one, have all been very creepy about Spanish police violence yesterday but its only because they think they will have to do it here, again.

  116. Brian Powell says:

    For those discussing EFTA, how do you get into EFTA?

  117. Old Pete says:

    Agree with you schrodingers cat and Nicola needs to get the ball rolling with a date in 2019 for the new Independence referendum announced at the SNP conference this month. We have an opportunity here and we need to take it.

  118. Welsh Sion says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:

    4.05 p.m.

    Thanks for your support – we have not been a Principality since 1535 “Act of Union”. Any so-called Prince of Wales since 1283 (Owain Glyn Dwr notwithstanding) is a foreign import and imposter anyway.


  119. Petra says:

    @ Legerwood says at 3:58 pm …. ”Petra … You mean the Treaty of Union of 1707….. The Treaty of Union 1707 is a treaty within International law.”

    Thanks for the correction Legerwood. Yeah I’m always in a rush and inclined to fire in ‘Bills’, Acts, and Treaties.

    Not good, but you know which one I’m referring to anyway, lol. The one that shackles us to this Union.

  120. With the best will in the world, I doubt whether the Tory ‘Big Tent Ideas Festival’ – set up to encourage young voters, will be very effective. The music was Bach, transmitted by violin. Just the thing for an average young voter. They don’t see themselves.

  121. schrodingers cat says:

    Old Pete says:
    Agree with you schrodingers cat and Nicola needs to get the ball rolling with a date in 2019 for the new Independence referendum announced at the SNP conference this month. We have an opportunity here and we need to take it.


    the time to announce and hold indyref2 is when we are sure of winning it.

    but i still think it will be in sept 18

  122. Petra says:

    There you go! Sacrifice peace in Ireland. What a bunch, eh, and I wonder if the people of Ireland are aware of this? Will the DUP be informing them anytime soon?

    ‘Nearly all English Tory leave voters more than happy to dump Scotland and sacrifice peace in Ireland in return for Brexit.’

    ‘Scots the least respectful of the upper classes: More evidence of a difference that makes a difference?’

    ‘Complete ban on fracking to be announced this week.’

    With a map that highlights that Ruth Davidson and her Tory bosses are completely out of sinc with most of Europe. Surprise, surprise!

  123. Brian Powell says:

    Does simply joining EFTA give you the same relationship with the EU as other members of EFTA?

  124. gordoz says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood

    The idealists among us may have wished this was possible and we could part in an equitable way, but 2014 fiasco and review of British history would point to the fact they don’t have it in them to do the right thing. (Need to make a little trouble , leave a little mess you see).

  125. yesindyref2 says:

    What I think happens with the media is that a story breaks, and in the absence of guidance they cover it fairly straight. So, yesterday, violence, police beating up voters. But then the official line comes out, so first it becomes a clash, which means both sides involved, then it becomes a riot which is a nasty mob, and the great Spanish police exercising moderation and restraint to get it under control.

    And note that “Spanish police”, since not that many would normally know that Catalonia has its own police. Totally censored out is the Guardia Civil which they would have to explain as coming from outside against the will of the Catalonians.

    So what we now have is a riot of disgusting revolting Catalan trouble-makers, with ordinary citizens fooled by malignanat activists, and the brave Spanish police sustaining injury while calmly and competently putting it down, and protecting the poor fooled misguided stupid Catalan citizens who bravely came out to vote against Independence, in spite of the nasty Catalans for YES. In time, there will be awards to those Spanish police, heralded by the news as being right and proper.

    The EU? It’s very much on trial as far as I’m concerned, not so much for what it does, as – does it tell the truth, or join in the manufactured lie, lie, lie, lying liars?

  126. heedtracker says:

    Hoe this is true. If Spain’s not sanctioned for yesterday, or whatever it is the EU can do when confronted with 21st C fascist violence, its fcuked.

  127. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh, and I forgot why the Express covered it. It’s anti-EU, and will be showing how the EU failed innocent people. Which, from the point of view of Catalan, means the Express is one of its few allies. Ugh. They’re going to need more long spoons.

  128. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 16:40,

    It will have to be Sept.2018, or not much later, or we will have truly blown it.

    The continuing uncertaintly down south is becoming of growing concern to business, so maybe UKGov will yet pull back from the brink and go for some kind of free trade deal, accept the necessary freedom of movement with an attempt at some kind of face-saving fudge, and face down the angry extreme Brexiteers.

    An exit route which incidentally doesn’t make EEA/EFTA a different sell for Scotland, unless as an explicit temporary transition to full EU membership in its own right.

    Maybe though that necessary face-off with the Brexiteers explains the attractiveness of Col Davidson to the English Tories. Supernanny(tm) will do the necessary confrontations and generate screeds of smokescreening bluster, while keeping the rebellious Scots on a tight leash (they think).

    Otherwise I can’t see the point of Rude Gal for them at all.

  129. heedtracker says:

    Extreme BBC Scotland news tv now explaining that Colonel Ruth saved the union. If muscleguy’s still planning his NZ emigration…cant me in. I have never seen tory BBC Scotland propaganda like this before, he lies:D

  130. yesindyref2 says:

    @Joe of the Coutts
    The Tories probably see younger voters as puppies to be bached at.

  131. Robert Graham says:

    I stand corrected if i am wrong , I Don’t Remember Mayhem expressing any kind of opinion or sympathy about events that were well under way in spain , while she was extolling the virtues of the tory party during this interview , she being the head honcho must have been aware of the violence that was going on in spain .

    The most disturbing thing is the half hearted grudging rebuke of what looks like a Fascist state embracing the works and same methods as Franco ,I wonder how many european leaders secretly applaud what happend yesterday, including Mrs Mayhem & Co .

    Jeremy late to the party and missed by a mile as were most of his labour party , you know the people’s party , on side with the downtrodden and oppressed , marked f/n absent yesterday .

  132. David McDowell says:

    Puigdemont demanding the perpetrators of the violence have their asses firmly nailed to walls. Excellent! When Catalonia declares independence Rajoy’s goons will be occupying foreign territory, and any further deployment of his violent thugs will be a war crime.

  133. Breeks says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    2 October, 2017 at 3:31 pm
    les gros fromages dans l’UE sont foutu

    if they support madrid, they lose barcalona
    if they support barcalona, they lose madrid

    a no win situation.

    unionist support the madrid option.
    yessers support barcalona

    tying indyref2 to EFTA membership is now the better option

    Who left the gate on the latch? The Brexiteer Boy Scouts have got loose again.

    I’d honestly rather listen to trolls.

  134. Eppy says:

    Listening to R4 Today program this morning, the most detailed coverage of the events in Catalonia was in the SPORTS coverage (at about 7.25 am.)

    Someone being interviewed about the Barcelona game talked about the effects of the shocking brutality going on outside the stadium on the team. The interviewer seemed somewhat uncomfortable about this and hurried him on.

    I wonder why?

  135. schrodingers cat says:

    Breeks says:
    Who left the gate on the latch? The Brexiteer Boy Scouts have got loose again.

    I’d honestly rather listen to trolls.


    fine, then fuck off and listen to some trolls

  136. geeo says:

    Stinky pete STILL pushing desperately for a referendum date.

    Stinky pete STILL desperately trying to sow division when Nicola sticks to the plan, the plan which is WORKING.

    Why Stinky pete ?

    Because he REEKS of unionist desperation…but hold on…he is 40 years SNP…Aye sure ye are chum.

    GTF ya twonk.

  137. schrodingers cat says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    An exit route which incidentally doesn’t make EEA/EFTA a different sell for Scotland, unless as an explicit temporary transition to full EU membership in its own right.

    actually robert, that perhaps isnt such a bad idea,

    1. we would neeed to addopt efta membership immediately after a yes vote to ensure access to single market anyway
    2. being pro eu mneans by definition being pro single market (efta)
    3. any further integration into the eu, whether vby euref or otherwise would undoubtabley win support in an indy scotland anyway.

    perhaps it is nothing more than a question of how we frame the discussion?
    ie, whether we hold an euref after a yes vote in indyref2 or just join ASAP is irrelevant, only thing of any importance is winning indyref2?

  138. Ian Foulds says:

    Schrodinger’s Cat at 2.48pm

    Apologies from a pedant but, my Dutch friends may take umbrage by referring to Holland as a State!

    I am sure your fingers slipped on the keys in your haste and you meant to say The Netherlands.

    Peace always as someone says.

  139. David McDowell says:

    “Given the chaotic nature of the vote, the turnout and voting figures should be taken with a pinch of salt, says the BBC’s Tom Burridge in Barcelona.”

    How is instructing people what their attitude should be to a political vote “being impartial”? They don’t even try to hide it any more!
    And WHY was the vote “chaotic”? It might have had something to do with voters having their skulls cracked open by armed thugs? Don’t let the facts get in the way of your propaganda message!

  140. galamcennalath says:

    TMay seems to be putting off telling some important truths to the UK population.

    She needs to admit that the Brexit sold by the Leave campaign is going to be very painful and not the ‘milk and honey’ land portrayed.

    Or, admit that a soft Brexit will mean the UK will still have to tow the EU line but have no decision making input, and the costs will be similar.

  141. schrodingers cat says:

    holland is a region, as is gronnigen, drente, freisland etc
    (i worked in Assen for 3 years.

    but when refering to netherlands in english, it is common to call it Holland. dunno why, probably some historic reason.

  142. schrodingers cat says:

    Ian Foulds

    my Dutch friends take umbrage when I point out that Dutch, low German (Niederdeutsch or Plattdeutsch) is so called to differentiate it from Hochdeutsch
    this is demonstratively true but also unpopular in holland and even less popular in flanders 🙂

  143. Andy-B says:

    Right then the Catalan yes vote has given me a second wind. Lets shake Nicola Sturgeon from her indy coma, and push for a second vote sooner than later.

  144. HandandShrimp says:

    I am actually amazed at the leaden footed triangulation of people like Duncan and other assorted Yoons and Loons. There is no equivocation, the brutality of the Spanish police was unacceptable whatever one might think of Catalan independence or, as the driving force actually seems to be, Scottish independence.

    In the words of the Manic Street Preachers “If you tolerate this your children will next.”

    Duncan and friends have not just ceded the high ground they have sold it for bread and a pottage of lentils.

  145. Brian Powell says:

    David McDowell

    Fortunately the people of Catalonia don’t really give a shit about what BBC’s Tom Burridge biased opinion is. Fairly soon the UK will be the wee laddie shouting over the dyke to the EU.

    Tho, of course, they need to keep up the propaganda for the Scottish Ind Ref coming.

  146. Lenny Hartley says:

    Brian Powell re EFTA -yes, however membership of EFTA is not the complete deal, it does not give you membership if the customs union, therefore if required you can join the customs union also

  147. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I look at all the media coverage Colonel Yadaftie is getting right now, and I think: “Those whom the Gods woud destroy, etc.”

    Boy is she heading for a huge fall. All those claims of having saved the Union and put iindependence back in its box.

    When Nicola announces, brexit having failed – we have no choice and Indyref2 will take place on X – the bold Colonel might well explode in frustration and anger.

    Indyref2 WILL happen Ma Colonel, soonr rather than later, and – you’d better believe it.

  148. Bob p says:

    All i know is that indy ref 2 has to happen soon before the influx of southern white settlers outvote us. Sorry if anyone takes offence,but thats an undisputable fact.

  149. gus1940 says:

    Given the number of times old editions of HIGNFY are shown on terrestrial and cable/satellite channels is it not curious that we have never been treated to those editions featuring Boris doing his bumbling idiot act.

    Who says that The BBC are not under the iron heel of The Tory Jackboot?

  150. Ian Foulds says:

    Schrodinger’s Cat at 3.59pm

    Totally agree. We need more (dry, Scots’) humour.

    Thanks for the fishing rod information.


  151. David McDowell says:

    Brian Powell @ 6:20pm
    Yes you’re right. Catalans don’t care what Tom Burridge thinks. Of course his propaganda is aimed at a UK audience, not the Catalans. Apparently lots of people don’t mind being told what to think by some nonentity at the BBC. As far as I’m concerned, Tom can take his “advice”, stuff it up his arse until he hears high-pitched squeaky noises, then twist it.

  152. ronnie anderson says:

    LoL Its a sign the Union Flag at Edinburgh Castle has come down the Flagpole snapped

  153. Ian Foulds says:

    Scott at 4.07pm

    I presume this statement also applies to Ms. Davidson!!

  154. Ian Foulds says:

    Ian Brotherhood at 4.13pm

    I fear that may approach may be too grown up for those ”pulling the strings’.

    I ‘pray’ that I am wrong.

  155. geeo says:

    A regular clown BTL on The Herald site came out with this nugget..unionist abc..!!
    This was after claiming Ruthie and Maybot had indeed saved the union
    Charlie Robertson1 hr ago

    “You missed the fact that Scotland voted No to separation in 2014, the Separation party lost 21 seats at the General election in 2017, and the separatist First Minister of Scotland has put separation campaigning on the back burner”.
    My response to him…awaiting response.
    You are delusional. 

    An independence referendum mandate can only be won at HOLYROOD elections.

    SNP Won that election and won a mandate to hold a referendum in this parliament. 

    A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY of MSP’s ratified that electoral mandate. 

    Independence is not on the back burner, but Nicola Sturgeon brilliantly took away unionists excuse to constantly talk about it as a deflection from the shambles of brexit. 

    Next year, the Scottish Parliament will pass a referendum bill and there WILL be one fairly soon after. (Before march 29th 2019). 

    The OUTRIGHT LIES of 2014 will not work this time, the union is over, just waiting on the date for the burial. 

    The grassroots campaign has already begun. 

    The official Yes Campaign will be short and to the point, Independence or live under direct rule (moves WILL be made to weaken Holyrood by the repeal bill power grab) from london, suffering the full disaster of brexit. 

    Credible arguments to stay in the union will be in very short supply. 

    Enjoy your rhetoric, but this union is not saved at all, it is being prepped for burial.

  156. Robert Graham says:

    Nicola needs to remind Bawhead that despite her telling her boss Mayhem , that she nicola ,has left the building ,hell will freeze over before she gets a look at the first ministers chair .

    Is mayhem & fluffy not following proceedings did they miss the vote in parliament that gave nicola the option of when to call a second referendum , i know most of the tories dont recognise holyrood but thats just f/n disrespectful to a parliament that keeps them in a manner that has most of us spitting bloody tacks, at the rank hypocrisy of those bs/rds , too bad we cant remove free prescriptions , free bus passes , free tuition from these f/krs and their families .

  157. Old Pete says:

    geoo at 5:37
    See your back with another scummy comment Mr Fruitcake. I have voted SNP for over 40 years, methinks you spit bile far to easily. Supporters like you would turn voters against Independence after all Scum comments are emitted by Scum

  158. mike d says:

    O/t anyone seen the tv programme ‘bargain brits abroad ‘.well we are off to blanes with our caravan for 7 weeks summer 2018. (Done it a few times before)..friends said,oh arent you frightened going down to Spain?.my reply,first,im not going to Spain. Secondly,despite my Scottish accent ,No im not afraid,unlike half of my so called countrymen/women. Thank f**k i have an irish passport.

  159. heedtracker says:

    Its a sign schrodingers cat! Still had a union jack flapping about on it too.

  160. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Socrates MacSporran @ 18:22,

    What a tempting picture, Rude Gal self-destructing from the bad reaction between her self-importance and the ultimate proof of her irrelevance to Scotland. But unlikely, I fear. Look how many “screeching U-turns” she has done over Brexit, for example.

    Reminds me of one of those quotes of Groucho Marx: “Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.”

    The English Tories may believe their own BritNat media hype and think they’re onto a winner, but soon enough they will discover they’ve got nothing more than an empty barrel.

  161. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Headtracker Its The Winds of Change they blaw stronger in Scotland .

  162. Conan the Librarian says:

    The amount of bickering on here these days is gein me the boak.

    I’m thinking of starting up a new, refreshed, Popular Front of Judea, and I’m over here.

  163. heedtracker says:

    I’m thinking of starting up a new, refreshed, Popular Front of Judea, and I’m over here.

    And you want to now be called Lorretta the Librarian:D

  164. Rock says:

    Rock (19th September – “The warning notice”):

    “The difference is spineless “sovereign” Scots bottled it despite getting a free vote whereas the Catalonians are showing real spine, although they will be crushed by the Spanish state while the EU does little more than make a few noises.”

    Rock (1st October – “Homage To Catalonia”):

    “Anyone seriously believe the EU will come to Scotland’s rescue when the northern British region is crushed by the UK state?”

    Rock (1st October – “Homage To Catalonia”):

    “The fascist Spanish state had been openly preparing this for the last couple of weeks.

    Anyone heard any comment about “democracy” from the EU or UN?

    The EU and UN Establishments are no better than the British Establishment.”

    Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, do you agree with my comments about the EU, which were made before today’s EC announcement?

  165. heedtracker says:

    ronnie anderson says:
    2 October, 2017 at 7:25 pm
    @ Headtracker Its The Winds of Change they blaw stronger in Scotland .

    Cant think of a more symbolic er, sign Ronnie loon! Scotland’s beautiful capital city’s world famous castle’s flag pole, with a union jack on it, snapped in half.

    It is a sign.

  166. galamcennalath says:

    If this assessment of how May’s Brexit will pan out is true, it has BIG implications for IndyRef2.

    ” I thought transition would include continued negotiation … it turns out that is not right.

    Her plan … is that transition just means a period for businesses and citizens to make their technical and admin preparations for the post-Brexit world.

    The nature of that post-Brexit world, the shape of our access to the EU’s single market, would already have been negotiated ,.. “

    So, with that narrative we WILL all know what the form of Brexit will be much sooner.

    To achieve the outline of the post Brexit deal in such a short time, it must be simple. That would mean a hard Brexit, with a transition to allow time for businesses and institutions time to adjust.

    Game on for IndyRef2, I sense!

  167. heedtracker says:

    C4 teatime news gimp just there calls Catalan violence by Spanish police yesterday, “clashes.” Very sad to see the whole of the UK media show their bias towards fascism.

    We just have to face up to the fact that the UK media is neo fascist.

  168. Dan Huil says:

    The tumbled-down union flag gives food for thought. Mastication?

  169. schrodingers cat says:

    conan and heed,

    all i said was that piece of beef was good enough for jehovah….

  170. Robert Graham says:

    the bit about the bent pole , some clown in the paper that has the story believes it’s our flag , our union jack , sorry to burst yer bubble pal , it’s their flag , it’s on all their buildings , if they had their way it would be on our buildings , all of them ,as a sign of conquest and a subservient nation .

    the unionists really believe they are wanted and valued , in this occupation , because it aint no union ,oh f/k are they going to be disappointed when it’s pointed out we are all regarded as being the same ,Sweaty Jocks .they some how need this comfort blanket to feel wanted oh dear . how sad .

  171. Dan Huil says:

    @galamcennalath 7:34pm

    My thoughts exactly.

  172. ben madigan says:

    coming late to the discussion as usual after a day’s work.
    Am just reading quickly through all your comments but noticed someone who who quoted the EU authorities

    ” Under the Spanish Constitution, yesterday’s vote in Catalonia was not legal”.

    All that may be be legally correct, if blocking the right to dissent from the established order is correct and justifiable.
    It remains to be seen whether the violence exerted by the Kingdom of Spain with 700-800 injured Catalans was legal or not legal.

    For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, “this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain”.

    Do all EU countries have a free hand in dealing with any dissent within their borders?
    Apart from beating people up
    Can we expect imprisonment for thought crimes against the state?
    Internment, anyone?
    Stifling a free press?
    Torture to confess?

    Add what you will . . . .

    It doesn’t have to be this way.
    The majority of people know that it doesn’t have to be this way

    PS without recalling the UK’s behaviour in Northern ireland, let’s look at another example of police beating up people in the EU. Does anyone remember what happened at the Diaz school and the Bolzanetto Police barracks, Genoa in Italy some years ago?

    PS sorry the link is in italian

  173. Conan the Librarian says:

    @schrodingers cat

    It’s been a while since I’ve been stoned…

  174. Fireproofjim says:

    People’s Judean Front hereby denounce you as a revisionist, splitist, running dog.
    Both of us agree you will be first against the wall.

  175. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Conan the Librarian Naebuddy oan here is gonae throw stanes at you but ah word of caution watch oot fur rock cakes .

  176. heedtracker says:

    Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, do you agree with my comments about the EU, which were made before today’s EC announcement?

    Awe Rock, you think I actually follow your mad old train of trolling:D

    Saw this and thought of you though. My Slovene girlfriend sends his love too. He’s at the tory conference, that looks like a mausoleum of mad old bores too.

    If the UN is demanding this, why not the miserable gits in Brussels.

  177. schrodingers cat says:

    Emmanuel Macron a affirmé au président du gouvernement espagnol Mariano Rajoy “son attachement à l’unité constitutionnelle de l’Espagne”,


    any thought of other eu countries sticking up for an iscotland should be dispelled, we can hope but dont count on it.

    if catalan gains indy, the basques would follow tout de suite,
    and parts of southern france wouldnt be far behind.(perpignan, pau etc)

    the eu is a union of these large states, all of whom have the same problem with secessionist

    the eu will close ranks with them

  178. heedtracker says:

    Also Rock, Scotland’s FM Sturgeon must drive you yoons barking mad, or pretty much your btl stuff.

  179. Andy-B says:

    Now the Basque region has fire in its belly as well.

    “The Catalan crisis has nonetheless pushed the regional leader of the Basque Country, Inigo Urkullu, to become more vocal. He urged Madrid last week to allow independence referendums and recognise Catalonia and the Basque Country as “nations”.

  180. galamcennalath says:

    A thought on Catalunya,

    Some of those assaults caught on video cannot be legal. We often here about police in the West ending up being suspended then even charged based on video.

    Attacking unarmed old people could never be justified.

    I cannot believe the Guardia Civil are beyond the law in Spain. Perhaps if arrest warrants were issued by Catalan authorities against the apparent perpetrators (even if they haven’t yet been identified) it would go some way to proving lawlessness cannot be allowed.

  181. Petra says:

    Ruth Davidson pales into absolute insignificance when compared to a multitude of SNP orators such as Nicola, Alex, Tommy, Joanna, etc, etc, etc, and just highlights how bad the situation is within the Tory party when they’d even consider her for leader. I was just listening to her telling a group of numpties in Manchester that she wouldn’t put up with her MPs putting anything in writing until it was passed by her. It’s a sacking offence says she. She comes across as being a right wee Hitler who, additionally, seems to have a problem with her short term memory.

    Both her and Mundell are still chuntering on about Independence, whilst not being questioned about key issues such as Brexit. It’s strange don’t you think that they’d even bother mentioning the subject when to their mind no one in Scotland wants it. It isn’t a threat to the Union at all. Is it?

    Meanwhile Gove the Environment Secretary, ha, ha, has come up with a great new idea. Bragging about it on the news tonight …. a plastic bottle deposit scheme. A Corbyn copycat pinching ideas from Nicola Sturgeon. Totally embarrassing.

    It’s actually becoming pretty pathetic to watch now. English Labour employees in Scotland, Leonard, Sarwar, Baillie et al, fighting like ferrets in a bag whilst the Tory party disintegrates south of the border. The people of England constantly voting for the see-saw brigade. Tories dropping down as Labour rise. Vote for Corbyn next time round and when he botches up vote Tory. Tory, Labour, Tory, Labour until the end of time. What a nightmare.

  182. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Spanish owned Scottish Power are major donators to Her Majesties Conservative and Unionist Party AND The BritNat Labour Party.

    Both embarrassing quiet on the outrageous behaviour of the Spanish Paramilitary Police yesterday.

    Never forget, they are only in it for the money.

    They have no other policy than lining their pockets with money.

    Any money, even blood money you just have to remember Bliar (no typo) and Iraq.

  183. Liam says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    2 October, 2017 at 7:05 pm

    Reminds me of one of those quotes of Groucho Marx: “Those are my principles, and if you don’t like them… well, I have others.”

    I thought it was Boris Johnson that said that?

  184. yesindyref2 says:

    Love your enthusiasm, but if anything Catalonia makes it even more important to wait till the right time (before March 29th 2019), in many ways, “legality” of the referendum (ours would be legal even if not agreed), the EU and its response, the outrage at the violence compared to ours (can work both ways though), also the media spin, yet another load of media spin for even more people in Scotland who saw the national police vioence with their own eyes on TV even, shielded by Catalonian police and firefighters, only to be told that it was a “riot”.

  185. Rock says:


    “Awe Rock, you think I actually follow your mad old train of trolling:D”

    Well Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, it is a mystery how you respond to every comment I make if you don’t follow my “mad old train of trolling”.

    See you tomorrow, Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, as unlike you I am not on this website 24 hours.

  186. mike d says:

    Boris johnson. A pound spent in croydon is of far more value than a pound spent in Strathclyde. What a f*****g insult to you yoon loving PSB’s. For the love of god have you’s got any self respect left.

  187. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 20:02,

    The established nation states will all tend to feel like that, and it’s nothing to do with the EU. Most national borders in Europe were only changed in times of great violence, so every government is rightly nervous of that.

    But it’s only the common framework provided by the EU that offers the hope of miscreants like the Madrid government being brought to some kind of account. And if the EU is to survive, it will have to learn how to cope with the reasonable demands for the self-determination of its peoples.

    Otherwise it’s back to the 1930’s.

    That really worked out so wonderfully well, didn’t it?

  188. heedtracker says:

    See you tomorrow, Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, as unlike you I am not on this website 24 hours

    OK Rock. See you tomorrow. Maybe you can start a fight with someone then. Hope you enjoyed the National stories too.

  189. mike d says:

    Psb’s you aren’t fit to wash a catalonian citizens feet.

  190. Rock says:

    Was there an independence referendum in Kosovo?

    Was it “legal”?

    The European Commission is as much full of hypocrites as the British establishment.

    What was their reaction to Scotland’s “legal” independence referendum?

    To allow and support, by commission and omission, the British Establishment’s fear mongering about independent Scotland’s membership of the EU.

    As I posted yesterday, anyone seriously believe the EU will come to Scotland’s rescue when the northern British region is crushed by the UK state?

  191. yesindyref2 says:

    Seems to be some heads of state empahisisng Spain’s Constitution, so here it is:

    I did notice this bit straight away:

    Section 1
    1. Spain is hereby established as a social and democratic State, subject to the rule of law, which advocates freedom, justice, equality and political pluralism as highest values of its legal system.
    2. National sovereignty belongs to the Spanish people, from whom all State powers emanate.

    I wonder if the solution for Catalonia is precisely in the Constitution which apparently denied it a “legal” referendum, but seems to recognise the sovereignty of the people, and freedom – freedom for what, to hold a referendum?

    I wonder if the EU has had a good read of their Constitution?

  192. Conan the Librarian says:

    @ schrodingers cat

    I could have done with some oregano tonight. Smoked paprika just isn’t the same.

  193. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh dear, the Spanish Government appears to be snookered, and may have broken the Constitution:

    Section 2
    The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to selfgovernment of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among
    them all.

    guarantees the right to selfgovernment of (the nationalities and) regions of which it is composed

    So what was it doing on Sunday? And before that?

    Ah well, armchair lawyer off for a ciggie.

  194. mike d says:

    Petra 8.10pm. Exactly,got to feel sorry for the english electorate. Liebor,tory,Tory,liebor,liebor,tory. Left a**e cheek,right a**e cheek. Merry go round keeps spinning.

  195. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 @ 20:46,

    As with some obvious other countries, the problem lies not in the constitution but the official interpretation and operation of it. For starters, the Spanish Constitutional court is packed with political appointees: 10 out of its 12 members. So much for “legality”.

    (This is one case where resident serial self-justifier and wet blanket Rock predictably scabrous opinion of jurists could just be right! =wince=)

  196. Ghillie says:

    Yahoo! No butchers apron up at the castle for a few more days!

    A bonnie wind blew it away =)

    So proud of our Nicola today and yesterday 🙂

    The ONLY decent and heartfelt condemnation of the violence of the Spanish government.

    Well done The National too.

    My thoughts and prayers are still with the People of Catalonia for what lies ahead and for those who were hurt and still hurting. So proud of you all, your courage and peacefulness.

    Catalonia’s light shines bright 🙂

  197. schrodingers cat says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    Otherwise it’s back to the 1930’s.

    That really worked out so wonderfully well, didn’t it?
    no it didnt, but the direction of travel in europe is for these old states to break up.

    a federal eu would probably be a good thing for the mulitude of new and smaller countries. I include scotland in that model

    some how the eu needs to navigate from where it is now to the new
    reality coming down the line. not an easy task, by any means. it cant please everyone and the unionists in all these countries are gonna be well pissed off.

    but the eu needs to stick to its principles if it is to succeed, it could be that it is the new indy countries that drive forward the eu project, become the mainstream etc, and it will be the remains of the old unions which are sidelined and they will have a working example, in the rUK, of those who think they can thumb their noses at the single market and the consequences of leaving

  198. David Smith says:

    I hope what we are seeing here is the beginning of the end of the big states that have caused so much war, misery and death in the world over the last three centuries.

  199. mike d says:

    O/t abroad on holiday last year,my english wife got talking to another scots couple. She made excuses for me,as she knows i wont engage in conversation with people who have the same accent as me,once i know they are brit nats. SAD I know,but i have nothing in common but contempt for these people.

  200. Lenny Hartley says:

    See Barcelona have said once Catalonia independent they will seek to join another league.
    Off course the Brit Msm are saying the English premier league is favourite, as we are the only country who have openly supported Catalonia think they should do the decent thing and join our league. Off course they would have to go the sevco route and start at division 3 🙂

  201. mike d says:

    Lenny hartley lol.

  202. Petra says:

    Ha, ha, ha. The Sun fairly bringing Ruth Davidson down a peg or ten today, for example, “Just look at some of the clowns the Scottish Tories ended up fielding for the council elections earlier this year, where we saw scandal after scandal. MSPs had to be drafted in to stand as MPs at the snap general election. It all points to a dearth of talent. Yesterday – without a hint of irony – Ms Davidson dripped poison about the celebrity status of Nicola Sturgeon. WHICH BEGS THE QUESTION: HAVE YOU LOOKED IN THE MIRROR RECENTLY, RUTH?


    Great front page on the National followed by 6 pages on Catalonia, including George Kerevan’s brilliant Catalan Diary. “The ghost of Franco has returned in the unexpected form of a new generation of Spanish thugs.”

    He mentions sitting amongst colleagues, friends and tourists on the Ramblas on Saturday night as a Spanish fascist youth parade passed by chanting and waving huge Spanish flags. …….. “The red caps are the giveaway. Crimson, blood red. A uniform not seen on the Ramblas these past 40 years – and certainly not on the head of a teenager. For this is the headgear of the Spanish fascist Falange. Suddenly we are back not just 40 years but 80. For the ghost of Franco has returned from the grave and …….”

    ……..”In Madrid on Saturday the proto-fascists were less reticent ….. the smiling fascist youth took to the streets with arms outstretched in the Falangist salute – borrowed from their Nazi friends. They sang the Falangist anthem: Onwards, squadrons to victory. A new day dawns on Spain. Spain United! Words not heard since Franco’s day. And you ask why the Catalans want their own democracy?”

    And he goes on and on. Great article.

    More than anything one wonders how this is all going to pan out now?

  203. uno mas says:

    Bad news on bad news.

    Just found out that Tom Petty (popular pop singer M´Lord) has been taken to hospital suffering full cardiac arrest.

    So thought I should leave this song of his here and dedicate it to the proud and brave people of Catalunia.

    “I wont back down,I´ll stand my ground, you can push me around but I won´t back down”

  204. Bob p says:

    Petra. A spanish fascist youth parade in the ramblas Barcelona. A bit like a junior Orange lodge march through O’Connell st Dublin. AYE I can see that happening. Lol

  205. uno mas says:

    Correction to above post re Tom Petty.

    Dead on arrival at hospital apparently.

    Another rocking chair needed for next Taveling Wilbury´s video.

  206. louis.b.argyll says:

    Aye, Scotland and Catalonia.

    Having once propped-up dubious empire.

    Many never stopped searching for cracks in the hegemony.

    World wars and worse distractions set the pace of change.

  207. Petra says:

    Oh my God it’s worse than I thought. The Tory Conference hall is practically TOTALLY empty. Footage shown on Scotland Tonight. No wonder they’re worried. Torcuil on now. I wonder what he’ll have to say about the Tories. Right off he’s saying that “the atmosphere is hellish. It’s like the Dead Sea.”

    Boris on tomorrow. He might just finish them right off.

  208. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    mike d @ 21:34,

    Conversing with “the enemy” may be sore trying at times, but if we all felt and did as you describe, it’s hard to see how we can ever possibly convert the 45 to the 55.

    By wishful thinking and sheer willpower, then, maybe…?

  209. Still Positive says:

    Petra @ 10.07

    That article from George Kerevan today is rather chilling.

    I know very little re the Spanish Civil War. All I really now about Franco was that he was a brutal dictator.

    It beggars belief that people would want a return to that.

  210. Jules says:

    Talking of pish being spouted by the BBC about Catalonia – this ‘analysis’ seems wrong on so many levels:

  211. mike d says:

    Rjs. Robert some of these people Will never be converted,even with logical dialogue.

  212. Phronesis says:

    The EU has an established and revised charter of human rights- indeed the commitment to human rights is one of the most appealing elements of belonging to the EU. It is therefore imperative that European leaders show ethical leadership skills and condemn the deplorable actions of the Spanish Government in Catalonia. Spain after all is a signatory to this charter.

    The definition of ‘illegal’ is Government sanctioned beatings and shooting at unarmed civilians.

    ‘The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU brings together in a single document the fundamental rights protected in the EU. The Charter contains rights and freedoms under six titles: Dignity, Freedoms, Equality, Solidarity, Citizens’ Rights, and Justice. Proclaimed in 2000, the Charter has become legally binding on the EU with the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon, in December 2009’

    ‘It entrenches:
    •all the rights found in the case law of the Court of Justice of the EU;
    •the rights and freedoms enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights;
    •other rights and principles resulting from the common constitutional traditions of EU countries and other international instruments.

    Article 34 – Individual applications “The Court may receive applications from any person, non-governmental organisation or group of individuals claiming to be the victim of a violation by one of the High Contracting Parties of the rights set forth in the Convention or the Protocols thereto. …”

    Individuals can also complain to the Ombusman who can be contacted by email, fax, writing, in person- perhaps footage of the beatings and shootings of unarmed civilians in the towns and cities of Catalonia exercising their democratic rights to vote would be helpful to the Ombusman in Madrid.

  213. Cactus says:

    Just because it’s a fucking excellent song…


    You may laugh and or cry.

    The hairs should rise-up upon the back of your neck.

  214. heedtracker says:

    Fluffie Mundell was awful on C4 news tonight, wobbly as a jellyfish, that can read a teleprompter but he has put huge pressure on BBC Scotland gimp network to get the yoons a FM Colonel Ruth in Holyrood. FM Colonel Ruth is the only way to stop Scots ref2, says Fluffie.

    Whilst looking for the C4 youtube of one yoon fuckwit, this other fuckwit popped up from March 2014. This is the level of UKOK fuckwit just enough Scots agreed with, all those years ago.

    Willie Rennie: “If you vote for independence, that’s the end of more powers”

  215. Cactus says:

    Love Catalonia X.
    Love Scotland X.
    Love X.

  216. Dr Jim says:

    I was explaining to my son in law today about democracy in this way

    Suppose your local council stacked the bins outside your door and that was the council rule but you and your neighbours decided this was a wrong thing to do so you all complain to the council to change policy who say NO many times

    You decide to change things by moving the bins with the agreement of your neighbours and everybody’s happy but the council sends the police round and they beat you up for defying the rules

    He now gets Spains version of democracy whereas he was Yoonlike for the rules before my childlike explanation

    Not often but sometimes a chink of light can be let in where none penetrated before
    Maybe Yoons only get if it’s made very simple so’s they can understand

  217. Petra says:

    Sad news about Tom Petty. A great singer of some great songs, imo.


    @ Bob and Still Positive … “Rather chilling.”

    It is chilling especially hearing about them marching down the Ramblas. George K reckons some of them were bussed in from outside. He went on to say that when they got bored chanting they started to vandalise the area by climbing on buildings and tearing down banners calling for the right to vote. And earlier in the day he was at the Catalan Government Building in St James Square when a couple of hundred volatile, chanting Nationalists passed by. “A passer-by made the mistake of shouting “we will vote” and was instantly set on. Catalan cops rescued the individual. My observers badge saved me from a similar fate ….”

    So it would seem that there was incidents of violence prior to voting day.

    …… “Where PP Prime Minister Rajoy leads (PP is the direct linear descendant of the old Franco regime) street thugs follow.”

    Wasn’t that the party that Ruth Davidson was in contact with?

    …… “We review the events of the day sitting on the Ramblas watching the Falangist youth returned from the dustbin of history. I ponder why these young people have re-embraced this foul creed. Remember, Spain has suffered mass youth unemployment of more than 50% since the 2008 crash. Maybe therein lies the answer………….. is it the sinister image of the storm trooper that has captured their ignorant imaginations?”

    Much more in the article of course.


    A couple of people were interviewed on Scotland Tonight by John MacKay. A Catalonian girl and a Spanish? professor. It looks as though the Catalonians won’t be getting any support from the EU or the UN. Early days of course. As mentioned already I don’t see Spain letting them go as A) they can’t afford to and B) it would open a can of Independence worms.

    So what next? Will they get into dialogue or will the Spanish Government take over?

    This story won’t end this week. I reckon that the Catalans have at least 2 / 4 years of a battle on their hands and that some of the elderly people who clearly remember what the fascist regime was all about will be steeped in anxiety for the future of their children and grandchildren.


    On a lighter note I hear that Alex shut Mundell up with a Tweet along the lines of “I sold out 19 venues at the Fringe. You’ve sold out a Nation.”

  218. heedtracker says:

    He now gets Spains version of democracy whereas he was Yoonlike for the rules before my childlike explanation

    Its only been a few months since assorted high English tories like old whatisface Micheal Howard were wanting to go to war with Spain over their Gibraltar colony. And he was hardly alone, the English went mental at Spain for even thinking about a Brexit Gib grab.

    Fast forward and suddenly fascist thug Spain’s got the UK red and blue tories for a new ally and bestie.

    Red or blue, toryboy’s are fucking maniacs basically.

    SKY fascists went with the tory freak out last time, as in,

    Brexit could turn Gibraltar into the next Falklands, senior Conservatives suggest Lord Howard told Sky News that Theresa May would show the same “resolve” over Gibraltar as Margaret Thatcher had with “another Spanish speaking country” over the Falklands

    Tom Peck @tompeck / 2 April 2017
    Former Tory leader Lord Howard said Theresa May would ‘show the same resolve’ over Gibraltar as Margaret Thatcher had over the Falklands

    Our future PM BJ

    Boris Johnson?Verified account 12:49 pm – 1 Oct 2017

    Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to the UK. (2/2)

  219. Cactus says:

    Tom Petty deed, fuck, another genius gone, of the ’17.

    Free falling:

    Be free people.

    Love X.

  220. Dr Jim says:

    If Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t take a second referendum off the table we will says Mundell and implying they’ll just install Ruth Davidson as FM

    I wonder if Spains actions have gone to Mundells head
    what a loony, that wee man’s lost the plot

    Coz that’ll all work out just fine eh in fact I’ll look forward to seeing them try that, Lovely!

  221. Cactus says:

    Come in William Wallace

    How’s yer embryo?


  222. Meg merrilees says:

    re the snapped flagpole at Edinburgh Castle:

    The 3 obnoxious ‘Aprons’ fluttering in the back garden of some house on the A91 bypass at Bannockburn have also disappeared – been gone for a fair few weeks now.

    Big Smile!!!

  223. Cactus says:

    Alike the iPeople of iCatalonia.

    I am outraged.
    I am angry.
    I want to be free.

    Though I know how to channel it.

    Just like you.

    Be +.

  224. cirsium says:

    OT – I’ve just read this. I am scunnered that we were not able to develop our carbon capture projects because of the actions of the British Nationalists

  225. Cactus says:

    Seasons greetings Socrates MacSporran & Rev ~

    In real life, I get the same, therefore I am the both of you.

    Party on October people!

    Trick or treat?

  226. Cactus says:

    The accidental truth…

    “He will come, she will follow, well she will be SO…”

    You know how the story goes Wingers.

    We are living in crazy times.

    Never forget that.

    Aye oops 😉


  227. Cactus says:

    Cheers! again:

    “Wouldn’t you like to get away… from the UK?”

    Welcome back.

    Go forward.

    Push PLAY >

  228. Alex Clark says:

    Here’s a peach.

    “President Trump also rejected the independence movement; the Catalan nationalists’ only backers are separatist-ruled Scotland, the pariah government of Venezuela and Russia’s intelligence and propaganda apparatus” 🙂

  229. yesindyref2 says:

    Quite hard hitting from one president in the EU:

    I do not at all share the idea of questioning the borders of European Union Member States. Nonetheless, I am categorically opposed to beating up citizens who wish to express their opinion, even when such a question is concerned. Violence will not lead to a solution.

    The Governments of Spain and Catalonia should draw inspiration from the European model of dialogue which has ensured peace between member countries for over 70 years guaranteeing democracy and freedom of expression.

  230. schrodingers cat says:


    Leo Varadkar: Republic will not recognise Catalan vote via @irish_news

  231. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    mike d @ 22:56,

    I know, Mike, I know. (I’ve encountered them too.)

    The way I think of it is, for those beside the bought-and-paid-for sellouts, the emotional price they would have to pay to accept the truth is just too high for them.

    Hence eg. the disproportionate hate-projection onto “that Salmond”, subsequently transferred to “that Sturgeon”, and all the other forms of denial and deflection in place of a willingness to engage and discuss. Their comfy old world is like to evaporate, so they are truly scared sh*tless.

    (Rather than think it through, they find some easy scapegoat – pick any of the obvious goin’ around – instead. )

    But the completely unreachable only amount to a quarter or so all told. With the other sceptics, the way forward seems to be to try to plant a seed of distrust in the dross they have been fed for so long, and hope it finds fertile ground.

    For those not totally frozen in the headlights, Brexit is one of the best ways we’ll ever have to shake such people out of their denial.

  232. Cactus says:

    SO many RHSide beautiful Wingfingers…

    Can you see em?

    Be FREE.


  233. yesindyref2 says:

    @Alex Clark
    A bit biased, and ignores the polling stations closed with a loss of 700,000 votes. But this is interesting from the WP:

    Even better, the two sides could agree on a legal means for Catalonia to hold a fair, free and legitimate vote.

    If that opinion was to gain a hold on the “free world”, the Catalans could at least win a fair open vote with no interference. And then it would be up to them.

  234. Cactus says:

    Welcome to Autumn pre iScotland.

    It was windy here earlier on, not now, all is calm, all the leaves are brown.

    Sing me a song…

    Good morning to ya iCatalonia, good morning to ya Scotland.

    What you gonna do today?

  235. Cactus says:

    If ye consider yerself a troll, challenge me now…

    Or forever hauld yer piece of peace.

    Listen to the sounds of WoS.

    “Radio, WoS, 24/7/365”

    “This is rocking radio, this is the big one.”

    Played the tune of recent aye aye.

    NOW is soon to be the time.

    Love Scotland X.

    17 / 34 / 51

    U know.

  236. Cactus says:

    U know like…

    Said it once before like.

    Secret code, wink wink like 😉 😉

    9 – 4 – 6 – 4 – 7 like

    W – I – N – G – S like

    Look at your phone like.

  237. Cactus says:

    But when is the time… ‘n’ when is it not.. thinkie thinkie, wae yer bonus pinkie.

    Theresa May (of the Westminster Estb.) is a can’t.

    Theresa May is a can’t.

    Never forget that.

  238. Cactus says:

    To ra Wings Over Scotland of last night and of this morn.

    It’s been a sexy pleasure.


    See ye laters.

    Sea shoes in the mornings.

    Je Suis Si X.

  239. Cactus says:

    Tam fuckin’ Petty.


    You can’t hold me down, ahm ah Freebird.

    Travel on you Wilbury.

  240. Ghillie says:

    Macart 🙂

    Tricia Marwick was an excellent Presiding Officer.

    But now, outwith Holyrood, Tricia is even MORE useful and impressive!

  241. Ghillie says:

    Just saw the funniest thing on twitter from 6 hours ago, so maybe about midnight…

    Crowds of Catalans outside a hotel hosting some of the Spanish storm troopers, banging pots and pans and blowing whistles…


    No rest for the wicked =)

  242. Stuart McTavish says:

    Living in France I’m slightly worried/humbled that yesterdays appalling statement from the Europoean Commission giving credence to the concept of an illegal vote make Nigel Farrage an unlikely champion.

    It certainly suggests the Lisbon Treaty requires a first and second amendment if the right of an EU citizen is to mean anything whatsoever.

  243. yesindyref2 says:

    @Stuart McTavish

    Lisbon Treaty, Article 2:

    The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

    All the European Commission, and the EU member states need to do, is observe the Articles of the current Lisbon Treaty, including Article 3 Section 5:

    5. In its relations with the wider world, the Union shall . . . including respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter.

    with the UN Charter Article 1 Section 2:

    To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

    Unless the EU and the member states don’t respect the UN Charter within the EU?

  244. Ghillie says:

    Also, Angela Merkle has called on Rajoy to explain the use of violence on the citizens of Catalonia.

    Sounds like a summoning to the headmistress’s office.

    Joking aside,I would not like to be in that sad wee excuse of a man’s shoes.

    He will get his comeupance.

  245. yesindyref2 says:

    Perhaps other parts of Spain will stop to think what might happen in their own regions, with interference from Madrid, and a lack of respect for human rights.

  246. Nana says:

    The UK Chancellor has been accused of “gearing up for another betrayal” of the oil and gas sector.

    Comment by the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Zeid Ra’ad Al Hussein on the situation in Catalonia, Spain

  247. Dan Huil says:

    So Madrid can make any law it wants to concerning its internal affairs and the EU, UN has to accept it?


    Same goes for London passing laws about Scotland.

  248. Breeks says:


    Chuckling at James Obrien.

    Brexit means the UK an export pigs ears to China unpierced because they won’t require name tags.

    Just to be clear, if livestock doesn’t have an ear tag, then you can forget about meat traceability and knowing which country and farm your meat comes from and /or the food and livestock standards exercised in its production. You also won’t know it’s age, and how many months or years it’s been frozen. If there is a disease outbreak, it will be more difficult to trace the point of origin and recall unsafe product.

    Join the EU Customs Union? Not unless these are GM modified pigs ears which generate enough lift to support flight.

    Happy Brexit everybody.

    But on the upside, any surplus of unpeirced pigs ears while will promote UK manufacturing and thriving export of Union Jack silk purses throughout the Empire.

  249. Stuart McTavish says:

    Thanks for that; Agree the foundations are noble;

    Unfortunately events and experience leave me unsure of the capacity (or intent) of the people claiming authority to give power to these words.

    Hopefully yesterdays response can be set aside as a poorly thought through diplomatic gesture and responsible adults will be able to resolve the inconsistencies in due course – forgive me if I can’t hold my tongue in the interim though.

  250. Brian Powell says:

    On the National Trust for Scotland. The Chairman said that the commemorations of Bruce’s defeat of the English army at Bannockburn mustn’t be allowed to promote any kind of support for Independence.

    This was around 4 or 5 years ago.

  251. Nana says:

    Debate this morning in Strasbourg on #brexit. I’ll be speaking on Scotland and citizens’ rights. Tory UK still not being serious.

  252. Nana says:


    James makes me chuckle, Gove not so much.

    The Pigs party have certainly made a pigs ear of running things.

  253. ScottieDog says:

    As I’m sure SNP will be getting telt to get on with the day job, here is a very interesting revenue raising proposal from Yanis Varoufakis. He was proposing it as a counter to austerity for Euro countries but to me its relevant to Scotland. Just substitute the words Euro with pounds in the article.

    “FT-coin could work as follows:

    You pay, say, €1000 to buy 1 FT-coin from a national Treasury’s website (Spain, Italy, Ireland etc. would run their separate FT-coin markets) under a contract that binds the national Treasury: (a) to redeem your FT-coin for €1000 at any time or (b) to accept your FT-coin two years after it was issued as payment that extinguishes, say, €1500 worth of taxes.

    Each FT-coin is time stamped i.e. in its code the date of issue is contained and can be used to check that it is not used to extinguish taxes before two years have passed.
    Every year (after the system has been operating for at least two years) the Treasury issues a new batch of FT-coins to replace the ones that have been extinguished (as taxpayers use them, two years after the system’s inauguration, to pay their taxes) on the understanding that the nominal value of the total number of FT-coins in circulation does not exceed a certain percentage of GDP (e.g. 10% of nominal GDP so that there is no danger that, if all FT-coins are redeemed simultaneously, the government will end up, during that year, with no taxes).

    Once in possession of an FT-coin, you can either keep it in your FT-coin e’wallet or you can trade it. To make sure that the system is fully transparent and that transactions are completely free, FT-coin could be run by a Bitcoin-like algorithm designed and supervised by an independent non-governmental national authority. Just as in the case of Bitcoin, the total amount of FT-coins can be fixed in advance, at least in relation to a variable not in the government’s control (i.e. nominalGDP), while every single transaction (including the tax extinction using FT-coins) is monitored fully by the community of FT-coin users on the basis of the blockchain pioneered by the infamous Mr Nakamoto.

    As an FT-coin is about to ‘mature’ (i.e. to reach two years of ‘age’), the demand for it will obviously rise from those that do not possess FT-coins of that vintage (as it allows for a major reduction in their current taxes). FT-coin owners with equivalent tax liabilities will have no reason to sell (as they will want to use it themselves to extinguish their own taxes) but those who have ‘stocked up’ on FT-coins (to a tune beyond what they need to pay their taxes), as an alternative to putting their money in the bank or in the stock exchange, will be selling; possibly with a view to buying freshly minted FT-coins.

    The great advantages of such a scheme is that it creates:

    a source of liquidity for the governments that is outside the bond markets, which does not involve the banks and which lies outside any of the restrictions imposed by Brussels or the various troikas
    a national supply of euros that is perfectly legal in the context of the European Union’s Treaties, and which can be used to increase benefits to society’s weakest members or, indeed, as seed funding for some desperately needed public works
    a mechanism that allows taxpayers to reduce their inter-temporal tax bill
    a free and fully transparent payment system outside the banking system, that is monitored jointly by every citizen (and non-citizen) who participates in it.”

  254. Scotspine says:

    @ Brian Powell

    Not that I encourage such activities, but Id imagine if he said something like that back then, he would likely have had a battle axe lodged in his napper.

    How times change.

  255. Sinky says:

    The Labour front that is 38 Degrees has binned the petition to sack the divisive Neil Oliver, who presents Scottish history from a British perspective, on grounds that they don’t allow calls to sack people from non paid jobs despite having run several such petitions previously.

  256. Ghillie says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 7.58 am

    Yes, the violence unleashed on Catalonia SHOULD worry the rest of Spain!

    In fairness, there were huge crowds out in Madrid protesting against the attacks on the Catalans.

    Rajoy will rue the day he ordered such mad and hateful action.

  257. Breeks says:

    And more about the EU reaction to Catalonia-

    There is another factor to remember, and that is the consequences for Spain’s economy if it suffered the loss of Catalonia’s contribution to Spain’s finances. The Spanish economy is not in the greatest health, debt outstrips GDP to a concerning extent, and it isn’t inconceivable that losing Catalonia would see Spain’s economy bankrupt, spiralling out of control, destabilising the Euro, and creating quite a shitstorm for Spain, Catalonia, and the whole EU.

    It’s a question of trust.

    The way I like to think about it is that the EU is straight away containing the problem, publicly calling for calmness, patience, and negotiation, but behind the scenes there will frantic efforts underway to find some workable compromise between Spain and the Catalans; perhaps the type of brass necked compromises which you don’t want to see in the newspapers.

    It’s a question of trust. If Spain has a sovereign government which is fascist, the EU is conflicted between respect for the sovereignty and constitution of the Spanish government, fascist or not it is still sovereign, and yet being free and justified to condemn and counter the actual acts of fascism.

    The constitutional reasons why the Catalan referendum was illegal need to be understood, otherwise what is to say the Catalans didn’t simply proceed with the referendum expressly to provoke the heavy handed reaction. I’m not sure entrapment is right word, but circumstances can be engineered to produce “predictable” results. I’m not saying that is or isn’t the case, but I have confidence and faith in the EU that it will weather the stinging rebuke and criticism of detractors, and quietly and officiously work at finding a solution.

    Spain is on a knife edge; embarrassed that it was so predictably provoked to violence, economically unstable, and exposed to significant dangers if Catalonia does secure its independence. Catalonia in contrast is flying at 100mph talking of UDI’s in 48 hours, ad-hoc ballots and improvised counts and voting results, and even the Basques now agitating for their own constitutional grievances to be reopened.

    Think of it all as an altercation in the street. Catalonia is the cock-sure-of-itself provocateur who started the fight, and Spain, believing itself provoked has thrown the first punch, citing self defence and mitigating provocation. The EU is the first Police Officer on the scene, and before he can get to grips with the incident he says “You! Spain! Throw another punch and you’re nicked. And you! Catalonia! Open your mouth again and you’ll be nicked. Both of you reel your necks in, calm yourselves down, and give me a chance to figure out what has actually happened here.

    Give the EU time and space to work at this. It has kept the peace in the tinderbox of Europe for decades, and has the weight, maturity and statesmanship to diffuse problems rather than exacerbate the grievances. Europe will do the right thing. But it requires all of us to exercise a little patience.

    What would the US be doing if this was America? What would the Chinese be doing if this was China? Same goes for Russia, South America, the Far East and Middle East. I like the European Union. It makes things better, sorts stuff out, and nobody gets threatened or bombed into submission.

  258. ronnie anderson says:

    O/T I’ll leave this here in case its not been posted before.


  259. ronnie anderson says:

    Math Campbell ( English Scots for yes ) were in Barcelona as moniters , if you’s are on F/Book (later today ) Math will be giving a run down on what they monitored over the weekend .

  260. Derick fae Yell says:

    Brian Powell

    The process for joining EFTA is

    1) to be a state to apply – i.e. independent.
    2) the EFTA council agree to accept membership. That’s it

    The process is MUCH simpler and faster than EU accession via A49 of the Lisbon Treaty. It’s inherently easier to agree with 4 than with the 30ish EU states and regions. There is no requirement, even theoretically to join the Euro, no convergence criteria.

    To obtain the benefits of the single market, the new EFTA member must use the EEA Enlargement Agreement. We apply and that has to be approved by all EEA members. This also applies to new EU members. Croatia took 8 months to joint the EEA after joining the EU (and 10 years to join the EU from the point of application)

    Once in the EEA basically all the worthwhile benefits of single market membership are available to citizens and businesses. There’s zip difference for the ordinary citizen. Alyn Smith would need to get another job, but I’m sure he’ll manage.

    Article 56 of the EFTA Convention, “any State may accede to the Convention provided that the EFTA Council decides to approve its accession. As regards further formal requirements, any new member state would have to apply to become a party to existing EFTA free trade agreements (Article 56(3)).”

  261. mike cassidy says:

    Mocketh not, ye laughers at Pigears.

    In China, they take Noddy’s pal seriously

  262. mike cassidy says:

    Grayling’s ‘I Accuse’ is interesting

    but he is a percentage man.

    “Indeed, even had the 51.9% of votes actually cast for the Leave proposition on the day of the referendum been 51.9% of the total electorate, it would still not have been anywhere near enough to justify such a change. Such a percentage of the total electorate would have denoted a split country, and in a split country the known is the proper choice against the unknown ”

    So you do wonder – what would be an acceptable percentage for him in a Scottish referendum?

  263. ronnie anderson says:

    @ mike cassidy Titter titter titter . The mans a Bam he should have ah tag on the foreheed

  264. cirsium says:

    @Alex Clark, 1.22am

    Thanks for that “peach” of an article – SNP baaaad taken to the international level, joining Venezuela and Russia.

    This post compares the pictures from two referendums

  265. Petra says:

    @ Nana says at 10:35 am …. ”Oops wonder if Ruthie saw this.”

    Good one Nana. Great to see that more and more people can see right through Ruth Davidson. She says that she doesn’t want the PM’s job. I think we’d find that she’s smart enough to know that she wouldn’t know where to start at Westminster. She’s what’s commonly known as a real chancer.


    And the Business Insider link relating to South Thanet MP Craig Mackinlay’s comments had the steam coming RIGHT out of my ears. That just about sums it up for me. Why we have to get out of this disfunctional Union, ASAP.

    ‘He told a fringe event at the party’s Autumn conference in Manchester that British people should in future fill the jobs vacated by European workers after Brexit.
    “I was struggling to think why wouldn’t a youngster from Glasgow without a job come down to the south to work for a farm for the summer with loads of gorgeous EU women working there. What’s not to like? Get on your bike and find a job.”


    @ ScottieDog says at 9:02 am …. ”As I’m sure SNP will be getting telt to get on with the day job, here is a very interesting revenue raising proposal from Yanis Varoufakis. He was proposing it as a counter to austerity for Euro countries but to me its relevant to Scotland. Just substitute the words Euro with pounds in the article…..”

    Spot on ScottieDog. The way to go. The way we will all be going in the very near future.

  266. Nana says:


    Mind your blood pressure now

    Rees Mogg is unable to articulate an argument for Brexit beyond a list of historical events – the latest of which was in the 19th century

    AmberRuddHR says law will change so that people who repeatedly view terrorist content online could face up to 15 years in prison

  267. Nana says:

    Can’t read the article as it’s behind a paywall.

    “Scotch Beef and Lamb are not to be recognised in the Japanese and Canadian trade deals.

  268. Petra says:

    @ Nana says at 1:06 pm …. ”Petra … Mind your blood pressure now.”

    Well Nana it had just dropped to 120/80 when I read your latest posts. It’s just shot back up again, lol. Off to carry out some mindfulness meditation.

    Meanwhile someone should remind Rees-Mogg, Mr History Man, of the Battle of Bannockburn and the last Scottish / English Battle … Battle of the Braes 1882.

    ‘The Highland Clearances were almost over when crofters on Skye decided to fight the government, sparking the last battle fought in Britain, on April 17, 1882. The crofters refused to pay their rents and fought 50 police who tried to serve eviction notices. The violent battle eventually resulted in the Crofters Act. A cairn was erected near the scene on behalf of all the crofters of Gaeldom, six miles from Portree.’

    And one just wonders if supporters of Scottish Independence will eventually be deemed to be terrorists and if attempting to access sites like Wings could see US facing 15 years in prison? Nothing would surprise me.

  269. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Same story as Nana says at 1:14 pm

    “Scotch Beef and Lamb are not to be recognised in the Japanese and Canadian trade deals.”

    But from the Herald:

    “Some of Scotland and Britain’s most famous foods and brands are at risk by a new EU free trade agreement which is expected to be ratified on Wednesday.”

    “The final agreement between the European Union and Canada JUST BACKED BY THE UK GOVERNMENT fails to protect any British produce – because it is understood UK ministers have failed to add any to the free trade deal.”

    Yet the Farmers and Fishermen voted Tory and now will reap what was sown.

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