The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

That pesky vortex again

Posted on July 10, 2014 by

Kudos is due to the Daily Record today, which has a large and prominent feature about NHS surgeon Dr Philippa Whitford, with whom readers should be familiar. Her message, from a position of knowledge and authority, of the fate awaiting the NHS on both sides of the border is a powerful one and makes a strong case for a Yes vote.

Obviously, that upsets both Labour and the No campaign very much.


Because obviously it’d be hysterical scaremongering for anyone to suggest that there was an agenda of privatisation in the English NHS (which would lead to a huge reduction in the Scottish block grant and ultimately to privatisation of the Scottish service too, because there’d be no money to pay for it). Plainly, anyone doing such a thing would be a shameless liar, right?


Oops. Still, at least it’s not like Labour’s shadow health secretary has ever said that he wants to effectively merge the Scottish and English health services so that there are no differences between them or anything.

“I am talking quite passionately about getting English Labour MPs back up the road and for me, sitting down with Neil [Findlay] and Richard [Simpson] and Rhoda [Grant] and others and saying, let’s get health policies that can be consistent across England, Scotland and Wales.

Wouldn’t that be a good thing, pulling in the same direction as opposed to pulling our separate ways? Devolution, in its early days, was about doing something different and it needs to enter a different phase where we start talking again more about a UK-wide policy because in the end, that helps everybody.”

Oh. We’re, um, not sure what our point is any more.

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. 10 07 14 13:47

    That pesky vortex again | Scottish Independence News

194 to “That pesky vortex again”

  1. turnip_ghost says:

    I’m beginning to wonder if even the No lot believe everything they say and don’t look outside BTHQ’s bubble at what WM MP’s are saying…or other people…Like I said on Twitter though….

    Dr Philippa Whitford is not a politician…and she’s not a Yes Scotland representative….so…surely she’s an “ordinary mum”…and we all know you can’t fault an ordinary mum…

  2. Capella says:

    Spot on again. Labour hypocricy knows no depths.

  3. handclapping says:

    Does anybody care what Labour says on the NHS anymore? They’ve a snowballs of making Government, any government, in the next 10 years and by then it will be too late.

  4. Adrian B says:

    Got to give this a quick mention as it details the known Westminster MPs with interests in the Privatisation of the NHS:

  5. heedtracker says:

    If you say to any Labour MP why we cant spend less on military stuff like Trident and more on health care, they tell you to piss off. If you ask a Con/Dem, they say GB loses a seat on the Security Council and world clout so just piss off etc.

  6. Murray McCallum says:

    I put the Record story on my facebook page to highlight “Salmond intimidates top surgeon. When will this end …”.

    The majority of my friends are SE English and rely on the MSM to get info about the unelected and anti-English dictator that runs the north.

    Speeches made by people like Dr. Whitford are priceless.

  7. Training Day says:

    Put simply, Labour move from pillar to post making it up as they go along, sure in the knowledge that the inconsistencies, anomalies and contradictions they enunciate won’t be highlighted by a supine MSM.

    The one thing they are consistent on, though, is that Scotland should be absorbed entirely by the UK to render us ‘one nation’ – viz Burnham’s comments above..

  8. Helena Brown says:

    Dear Kezia, do you know anything about what Labour were up to during the 13 years that they were in power? Labour opened the way for the Tories, they started all the mucking about with the English Health Service, and boy if they get into power do you now how much money individual’s in your party will make. Now you may be a fool but please do not tar the majority of the Scots with the same.

  9. Craig P says:

    Kezia is welcome to scaremonger. It is important that everyone considers the possibility of being kicked out of the EU, all our jobs moving to London, the English bombing our airports, etc.

    Because once people have considered these possibilities, they can weigh up the likelihood of them happening.

    And then compare it to the likelihood of our scaremongering around the risks of *staying* in the union – (usually backed up with quotes from unionist politicians who can’t wait to bring Scotland to heel).

  10. G H Graham says:

    Labour are not in government in Edinburgh or in London. So all they have is contradictions, hypocrisy, hysteria & lies to offer to the electorate.

    And Ms. Dugdale is one of their champions.

    Nice woman I’m sure but numerically, as sharp as crumbly cheese.

  11. desimond says:

    Poor Kezia..doesnt she see she’s only gone and opened up the medicine cabinet of truth to many of her followers?

    Will this make it into FMQs today Johann?

    PS: Cant help but think that Andy Burnham looks like a Thunderbirds character there!

  12. Craig P says:

    I was talking to a comfortably retired die-hard unionist at the weekend – she brought up the uncertainty and unanswered questions line – all I had to do was ask what she thought would happen with NHS privatisation, pensions taxation, and EU referendum *in* the union, backed up with some quotes gleaned from here and elsewhere.

    She had never even considered that a no vote would lead to adverse changes, changes she would have no power over, you could see the wee wheels turning.

    Another undecided born…

  13. TD says:

    The only thing that Labour care about is being in power. They have forgotten their founding principles so we now see them proposing to be harder on the poor than the Tories.

    If you think about it, Labour and the SNP should be quite close politically with only the issue of independence separating them. They are both (allegedly) left of centre parties with (allegedly) similar social ambitions. That should nicely prepare the ground for an intelligent debate about independence and whether it is the best way to achieve the similar ambitions. And if the Yes campaign could reasonably argue that independence could better deliver the type of society that most people want, then Labour should be persuaded of the merits of independence.

    But oh no, the key driver is gaining power. If that means supping with the devil (Tories, UKIP, BNP et al) then so be it. Truth is the first casualty, logic is the second. They are quite happy to come up with extreme right wing policies in order to pander to the SE English electorate.

    The hate that oozes out of them towards anyone, even like Dr Phillipa Woodford, who puts forward a reasoned argument for independence is quite disturbing. Those in Labour who are true to the cause of building a more equal society need to wise up quickly and join the enlightened 30% or so of Labour voters who are planning to vote Yes. After independence, they can rebuild their party and people like me might listen to what they have to say.

  14. Brian Powell says:

    I noticed on that article that comments that attracted 100 up votes within a minute became 45 ups, and a 15 down votes became 1 down!

    Hmm. Somebody in Labour working hard there.

  15. Cag-does-thinking says:

    One of the clever things that the Tory/Tory coalition are doing under the name of “austerity” is to create a huge budget black hole in the English NHS which awaits detonation just after the next election by linking budget cuts to productivity gains that aren’t likely to be achieved.

    I hate to quote the Daily Mail but it’ll give you the general idea with some added screams.

    Can you spell health insurance boys and girls?

    So the good doctor seems to be spot on in her analysis. We may have a really good future industry in health tourism.

  16. Jack Murphy says:

    NHS England.Fears raised it will no longer be free within 10 years.
    C’mon people in Scotland we know what is best—–Yes.

  17. goldenayr says:


    I thought Holyrood was shut for the summer?

  18. WTF at 11.23 and I am late to the game.

    So, we need to vote for the Union because inter alia: Healthcare (which was already devolved and had always been its own nurse); except if we vote for the Union we are voting ACROSS EVERY FARTY for the ideal of integrating NHS Scotland with the privatising NHS Eng & Wales.

    Vortex indeed.

    I wrote comments in Bat(e)man’s Labour Pain column (not approved yet): lunch yesterday w. Grannie the Lifelong Labour Campaigner (Champagne Share-buying variety) who gets invited to Gord’s invitation only. It was illuminating and heartbreaking to see the blindess and lack of insight as to the fluffy world of fallacies Labour thinks itself living in: Grannie who is bright but equally not atypical of Labourites of age and generaion (one presumes and sees on Twitter), believes BELIEVES SNP = Nazi, and refuses to believe that MPs at Westminster are in collusion w. the coalition over welfare cuts. Far less the drivel about Flash Gordon who single handedly saved the Empire and the fact that not even equal partnership in the Union but a marriage that has favoured Scotland.

    Internalisation one rationalising of the position.

    The rationalisation is not important: what is important is getting out there to talk to the likes of Grannie and her political kin – and there it is the matter of convincing in terms of the factual and the fiscal, not the heart-led, future.

    My huge concern is that these people will be the stumbling block to independence.

  19. Ladybird says:

    So, Labour are effectively lining up their ducks in that its the same “We’re gonna do what they’re doing” line that they keep repeating. They are essentially electioneering by saying that soon the privatization of the NHS will be too far gone to reverse so they’ll just go along with it. It’s like a school child saying “Someone else did it and ran away”.

    All the parties are united in policy to cut Scotland’s grant forcing the privatization of NHS Scotland. Not what the majority of the Scottish population votes for. At the moment Scotland is treated like a northern province, simply too small to be worth considering. Might be hard to read but let’s all face it, its true. The only way to get the services we want is to take the exit from the UK.

  20. Brian Powell says:

    Kezia Dugdale should have a word with NHS Together, the real one not the fake one, and they would put her right on privatisation in the NHS in England.

    Perhaps before going to sleep each night she repeats one hundred times, “best of both worlds, strong Scottish Parliament, it’s got to be true, they told me it was true, please let it be true”.

  21. goldenayr says:

    Brian Powell

    More likely her “handlers” are keeping her on track if the reply,from her aide,to an email I sent her is anything to go by.

  22. BrianW says:

    Do you think Kezia and her Labour Cronies will change their No cards they all seem to be holding or putting on their Online-Pics..

    It could just read ‘No To the NHS’. Surely that would be more reflective of their policies and meddling in the institution over their years on power. They don’t seem to be shouting too loudly at what is happening now to the NHS under the Tories – your party of privatisation.

    They could have multiple ones for however they feeling that day..

    No to the NHS
    No to Social Justice
    Yes to Trident
    Yes to Snoopers Charters
    Yes to Scaremongering
    No to Civil Liberties

  23. pete says:

    The rUK cannot afford the NHS, it’s been a burden to them for years now, the decision to get rid of it was made a long time a go, now it’s just a case of all the rich snobs scrambling to get
    as much of the NHS pie as they can, we have a chance to keep
    our SHS (Scottish health service ) we must fight with every fibre
    of our being, we as an independent nation can afford it. Vote YES for the sake of our right to free health care.

  24. Peter Sneddon says:

    They are suffering from collective cognitive dissonance.

  25. desimond says:


    Ah, silly me.
    For the life of me I cant quite understand why Politicians should get so many holidays. I wonder if Johann Lamont actually gained holidays when she stopped being a teacher?

  26. Peter Sneddon says:

    Or they’re just thick liars.

  27. megz says:

    The simple fact here is that the likes of Kezia should know exactly whats going on down south and what the implications are for our NHS. If they know they are being duplicitous, if they dont know they are incompetent, neither of which serves Scotland or her people!

  28. Bigbricks says:

    Having just retired from the Scottish NHS, and being reasonably aware of what is happening in England through contacts with professional colleagues and attending meetings in England, I think that Philippa Whitford is understating the case. The NHS, as we understand it in Scotland, no longer exists in England. Primary (GP based) and secondary (hospital based) services are run at a local level, with no requirement on Trusts or Clinical Commissioning Groups to provide a joined up, comprehensive service (indeed, no mechanism for achieving this since the Secretary of State changed the law to remove his responsibility for service provision).
    This is undoubtedly coming our way in the event of a No vote.

  29. Thepnr says:

    If you haven’t done it yet I suggest clicking on the Rev’s link to the actual article. Absolutely amazed that they have printed this story.

    Also noticed that the comments with negative points don’t like the truth being revealed. They don’t like it at all.

  30. Doug Daniel says:

    Burnham: “Devolution, in its early days, was about doing something different and it needs to enter a different phase where we start talking again more about a UK-wide policy because in the end, that helps everybody.”

    Not quite getting the hang of this devolution malarky, is he? And that’s precisely why Labour’s supposed love of devolution is nothing but a sham. Labour will always try to centralise things, because they don’t understand that people in different areas have different needs. Scotland’s health problems are not necessarily the same as England’s health problems, so we need to do things our own way.

    Devolution has only ever been about trying to retain power in Scotland and Wales on the occasions that the Tories get back in at Westminster. The proper reason for trying to devolve power to a more local level – to empower communities and let them form their own solutions to their specific problems – goes totally against the Labour way of thinking, which is “one size fits all”. Just like their new desire to devolve things to councils is purely to bypass the SNP at the Scottish Parliament.

    Labour are control freaks. That’s why anyone who thinks they’ll ever devolve any meaningful powers to Scotland is naive at best, and an idiot at worst.

  31. desimond says:


    If Labour was a kid in Nursery it would be the biting one wearing a badge that reads “Does not play well with others”

  32. Peter Macbeastie says:

    Kezia Dugdale is devoid of common sense.

    Scaremongering is telling stories to create fear which have no basis in fact and cannot be backed up with evidence.

    What that article prints has plenty of evidence to support the statement.

    That is not scaremongering. That is a warning of what is coming. Think of it as a broadcast to warn of imminent nuclear attack. It’s not scaremongering, because the threat is real and it will arrive at some point.

    The point about scaremongering is that it isn’t really anything to be scared of.

  33. JLT says:

    I can’t quite see the point that Kezia is trying to make. Is she seriously going to wave the Record article at a ‘Yes’ Supporter crying ‘scaremongering, scaremongering’ when the issue of privatisation of the Scottish NHS is discussed.

    First …the article is from a Union supporting newspaper
    Second …the article is basically confirming Labour policy
    Thirdly …what’s her point ???

  34. TD says:

    Well put. They want to be king of the castle and cannot cope with the fact that someone else is in the castle at present and, if polls are to be believed, will be for the foreseeable future. They are spitting mad.

  35. Craig P says:

    A huge proportion of UK GDP is tied up in the NHS. And if private companies can increase their footprint there is a *lot* of money to be made in healthcare.

    Oh, look at this (long) list I found of UK politicians with financial interests in promoting private healthcare!

    If anybody wants to know the future of the NHS, just read this list of politicians who will profit from privatisation.

  36. gordoz says:

    Has Kezia left School or still completing her highers ?

  37. Marian says:

    I was incredulous, to put it mildly, when I read a piece on the ever loyal to Westminster BBC Scotland website last week, that quoted Labour’s Scottish Health spokeperson Jackie Baille as claiming that Better Together has set up a 300 strong “Scottish NHS Health Workers for NO” Group and that she had also claimed that “the Scottish NHS was safer with a NO vote because of the broad shoulders of the UK.”

    For goodness sake what planet does Jackie Baillie live on where they spout equine excrement like that?

    By the way there’s an excellent piece on Cognitive Dissonance by Margaret and Jim Cuthbert over on Bella Caledonia – see

  38. YESGUY says:

    I have to add that i have seen four specialist doctors at three different hospitals in 6 weeks.

    No long waits. Kind and thoughtful staff and i now have a better understanding of what ailed me and the medication i now take has improved the quality of my life so much more, so quickly.

    I hear all sorts of scares regarding our health service but have nothing but praise for the services . To be treated for free is a luxury that many in the UK will no longer have and if thats not a reason to vote YES then i don’t know what is.

    More ammo for the YES cause.

  39. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ kendomacaroonbar – O/T : Thankyou Ken for news of Wings trolley tokens being posted out.

  40. Muscleguy says:

    @Helena Brown

    When Labour was in coalition with the FibDems at Holyrood they sold off bits of the Scottish NHS like Stracathro Hospital in Angus. The SNP government in their first term bought it back along with other privatisations.

    SLAB doesn’t have a leg to stand on wrt NHS privatisation. They would do exactly the same.

    My wife had an op at Stracathro after it came back into the fold.

  41. Colin Church says:

    Consevatives and Better Together I understand the tactics and see through them. Labour completely baffles me. Their MSPs have a potential for more power and responsiblity within an indepenedent parliament but all are opposed. They could lead the way in implementing what they espouse to believe unshackeld by their WM peers but choose not to. They behave and act as second eleven under 21 team looking for a call up from the bench to go play in London, envious of those have have “made it” there. As for Labour supporters and voters – who will be key to the vote – how do they follow these contortions without recognising the corkscrew in front of them? I share the concerns of Rosa Alba here. The S in SLAB seems to stand for Spite.

  42. cynicalHighlander says:


    Private tutor Lord Foulkes.

  43. macart763m says:

    Yeah, you can see why Ms Dugdale was considered a perfect fit for the BBC. The lady does hypocrisy pretty well.

  44. John H. says:

    Sorry O/T.
    BBC News “Emergency powers to ensure police and security services can continue to access phone and internet records are being rushed through Parliament.”

    The terrorism threat is being used to gradually erode our civil liberties.

  45. R-type Grunt says:

    C’mon Kezia, man up. Are you a mis-informed buffoon or a liar? The people you claim to represent demand the truth!

  46. Jim McIntosh says:

    O/T – Sorry if this has been mentioned elsewhere but I see the panel for this evenings Question Time from Inverness has been published.

    “the panel features campaigners for both sides from a range of occupations: singer-songwriter Ricky Ross, Daily Record columnist and agony aunt Joan Burnie, businessman and chairman of Orion Group Alan Savage, and the Scotland and British Lions rugby player Scott Hastings.”

    Come on Joan and Ricky.

  47. Haggis Hunter says:

    Is it denial or just plane ignorance (of the ‘let them eat cake’ variety) that prompted Miss Dugdale’s tweet?
    Cannot believe an elected member has come out with that.

  48. The Man in the Jar says:

    Labour haven’t forgotten their principals. They have just torn it into long thin strips and have hung it in the loo to wipe their arses with.

  49. Jim says:

    Very decent of Kezia to post that on her twitter, well done you. You can cut it out and keep it or take it to the bank, see if they will cash it in for you when you need money to pay for your medical treatment when NHS Scotland is privatised in the event of a no vote

  50. gordoz says:


    Well, who better to learn the dark art of ‘blaw hard bollox, bullshit’ and outright LABOUR opportunist lies than from his drooling Lordship.

  51. Peter Macbeastie says:

    The usual few apologists and cheerleaders for No that occassionally pop up here seem curiously absent.

    I can only assume they’re keeping their heads down, because defending against Dr Whitford’s statement, given her position and knowledge of what’s going on, would be defence of the indefensible.

    We all know what she is saying it true. You don’t have to look terribly far into where she has found her information to realise that she is absolutely speaking the truth, and not just the truth as she sees it.

  52. Sinky says:

    This is the same Any Burnham that introduced privatisation via his English health reforms.

    The Francis Report into Mid Staffs death rates criticised Andy Burnham who was Labour’s Health Secretary and previously minister for delivery and reform (privatisation) at Depart of Health for being asleep at the wheel.

    In 2007 Andy Burnham backed Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust’s application for Foundation status citing its “high performing standards” but this was after the national UK press had reported 127 deaths at Mid Staffordshire one of the highest in the country yet Burnham claimed that he was unaware of this.

    English NHS private health spending
    Spending on private services by the NHS in England reached a record £8.7bn last year, a jump of more than £3bn since 2006, according to research.
    A study by the Nuffield Trust and the Institute of Fiscal Studies reveals that the role of non-NHS providers in delivering NHS-funded care in England has increased dramatically from 2006, with the result that in certain areas of healthcare the independent sector is now a fixture in the NHS.
    The report gives as an example the proportion of hip and knee replacements delivered by private companies and funded by the NHS, which rose from “negligible” in 2003 to a fifth of all such operations today.
    The report says choice and competition were embedded into the NHS in 2008 with a significant effect on local hospitals.…/…

  53. Jim says:

    @Peter Macbeastie
    Which is why it great that Kezia is out there spreading the word, you go girl.

  54. gordoz says:

    Oh right oh Kezia, what a cracker you’ve caught YES out there. No more NHS; aye right!

    There will still be a private ‘insurance based’ company called the NHS Ltd, those damned scaremongering liars at YES Scotland.

    Jeez – she’s a complete numpty right enough.

  55. Derek M says:

    My god did the daily record actually print this im astonished or am i still dreaming.
    i would have thought after years of scaremongering a slab MSP would know the difference what an idiot lol

  56. Sinky says:

    Hearing Gavin Hastings on politics reminds me about the comments made about US President Gerald R Ford and having too many football injuries.

  57. lochside says:

    Keza Dugdale: lying self-publicising hypocrite. Andy Burnham wants the ‘uk’ health services to work together…so they can make a better job of rebuilding his ugly mug?

  58. desimond says:


    Youre being absurd.

    It will be NHS Uk plc of course as Labour and their chums in Westminster will need to provide folk like PWC a good few hundred million in consultancy for amalgamating the Health Services and then commission more computer systems worth billions which wont ever actually go into production.

  59. Sinky says:

    Sorry apologies to Scott Hasrtings

  60. goldenayr says:

    desimond says:
    Ah, silly me.
    For the life of me I cant quite understand why Politicians should get so many holidays. I wonder if Johann Lamont actually gained holidays when she stopped being a teacher?

    Don’t think she’s noticed that the “pupils”,she is trying to disinform,are a quite a bit older and a lot less stupid than her.

    Her brain has certainly been on holiday for awhile.The rest of her thinks getting out of Baillies shadow a holiday.

  61. Jim says:

    @Derek M
    It’s going to take a lot to restore my faith in any media outlet but the record has started the process, maybe the editor has a conscience after all.

  62. Helena Brown says:

    Muscleguy I had forgotten that, maybe that is what Kezia et al would like to happen. Labour is as much into privatisation as the Tories, they have as much to gain certainly. We should also remember that it was the SNP who got rid of the stupid internal market as well and cleared out Primary Care Units.

  63. Clash City Rocker says:

    Add the name Philippa Whitford to those of Ivan McKee, Paul Kavanagh, Stuart Campbell, Munguin, Paw Broon, Eezy Peezy, and all who blog, campaign and canvass tirelessly for independence as HEROES of this campaign. WHEN we win, the resurgent Scotland will owe these people a huge debt of gratitude. You already all have my deepest thanks and admiration.

  64. Jim says:

    Well, I was thinking maybe they could use one of those ahem, Aircraft Carriers and re-name it, NHS Scotland, base it somewhere central so I don’t have to travel too far for medical treatment.

  65. Derek M says:

    @ Jim i think he must be on holiday lol

  66. Jim says:

    I think his conscience was on holiday for a few months.

  67. Colin Church says:

    @ Jim McIntosh

    Good grief. Savavge will launch into currency and EU and business risks, Hastings will do the you can be Scottish and proud British spiel. Early night then. Can someone phone in sick so Ivan McKee can get a seat opposite Savage?

  68. desimond says:


    hahaha, indeed. I made a slight mistake, i should have written

    NHS UK plc ( incorporated Cayman Islands)

  69. Jim says:

    You can’t phone in sick, you wont get an appointment for three weeks.

  70. Jim says:

    Yep, “NHS Scotland, We’ll Doctor you and your tax returns”.

  71. Clootie says:

    Keshia is not very bright.

    I’m still trying to figure out her post as regards backing up her claims?

  72. desimond says:

    The only positive for a No vote will be the opening for the Rev to start up a ‘PRIVATE AYE’ magazine to highlight all the shenanigans that will be rife as Scotland is torn up and sold off while unionists smile and light their cigars and accept their corporate backhanders.

  73. Clootie says:

    Kezia obviously – the auto correct wins again 🙁

  74. Walter Scott says:

    Burnham….. “Devolution was about doing things differently,BUT, we should be working closer together. More meaningless drivel. Do these people ever think of how ludicrous they sound? Jeeeeez

  75. Lesley-Anne says:

    Don’t you just love it when Labour and all it’s hinger on’s start falling apart all over the place? 😛

    Right from the first time I saw Dr Phillipa Whitford’s video I knew there was something special about her message. The thing is it doesn’t stop with her video it is just the START. As well as the links mentioned by others above we should never forget the plans to privatise CANCER care. That’s right folks with cancer in Staffordshire are on the verge of becoming the first in the U.K. to face PRIVATISED cancer care… I’ve been there, read the book, starred in the movie and got the T-shirt… and I’ve survived, thank you SCOTTISH N.H.S.

    That’s not all though. Our pet Labour leader, wee Johann, has also been reported as getting into the “kill of the Scottish N.H.S.” as well. Under her Labour in Scotland would would re-introduce prescription charges for everyone except children and pensioners. Other measures under consideration include an outright ban on prescribing painkillers – despite their role in preventing heart attacks. Now having fought with and beat off Cancer I am now living with the after effects of my Chemotherapy and one of these side effects is HEART FAILURE! So you can imagine I’m over the moon with our wee pet Labour leader at the moment… NOT!

  76. Kev says:

    If I were a Labour spin-doctor I would’ve denied all members access to twitter a long time ago, the fact that they haven’t reveals an astonishing lack of brainpower almost on a par with Kezia Dugdale.

  77. Defo says:

    Oh Fifi, you silly silly girl…

    Never mind, the Daily Heil might have vacancies.

  78. heedtracker says:

    So within a week, Westminster will now be recording every phone call and email made in the yew kay.

    Just watched BBC lunchtime news/ hard core war is good propaganda about the yewkay’s richest man raising £300 million for a hospital to care for soldiers blowen to pieces in Westminster’s unwinable pointless wars in the Middle East, so that’s fine then. If BBC propaganda machine fell into the hands of right wing UKOK very rich people and or even maniac loyal Scot Labour politicians like Blair and Brown and Darling, then ConDem’s like Cameon and Clegg, we’d all be where we are now.

    Next up, convicted phone hackers like Andy Coulson released earrly from chokey because the yew kay government does exact same as Rupert Murdoch’s goons.

    St Thatch would be a proud teamGB leader today.

  79. Dan Huil says:

    Gavin Hastings’ first words will be, “I’m a proud Scot but…”

  80. desimond says:

    @Dan Hull

    Soon followed by the face-palming ..

    “Ive played in so many of the former parts of the Empire and oh how the people welcomed me as a Scot..and a Brit.”

  81. Les Wilson says:

    Marian says:

    Marian, Bailey stays in Scotland alright, AND she knows full well what she is doing. Shame on her, and the WHOLE of the labour party, North and South.

  82. Dan Huil says:

    @ desimond

    Then, “We’re better together, just look at the British Lions… oh, wait… I forgot about the independent Republic of Ireland. Ooops.”

  83. Molly says:

    I take my hat off to you, having been through all that and using your va va voom to campaign!

    Regarding charging for prescriptions or banning painkillers from being prescribed.
    I saw a UK news clip a month or so about counterfeit ‘stuff’ bought on the internet.

    One of the boxes was Clopidegrel , an important tablet but not one used for ‘ recreational ‘ purposes. Now if people are ordering essentials like Clopidegrel, ( obviously not from Scotland as this would be supplied) to save on prescription charges , imagine the problems that is storing up , far less people ordering what would be banned painkillers.

    The Labour Party haven’t really got the hang of this internetty thing yet , have they?

  84. Les Wilson says:

    Lesley-Anne says:

    Sorry to hear about your troubles but glad you beat it. I have a lot of experience in the problem, and SNH, the good and the bad. But you were Meant to be here, just to cause mayhem! Lol! So somebody up there likes you!

  85. Les Wilson says:

    Lesley-Anne says:


  86. ianbeag says:

    O/T Anyone know when the YES saltire flags from the crowd funding appeal contributors will be delivered? I see them being distributed from YES outlets but no sign of delivery and no reply from question to the organiser

  87. joe kane says:

    There certainly is some serious competition this week in Scotland for the “Labour Party George Orwell Prize” but I think it actually goes to the ghoulish 35 year old ex-City banker Rachel Reeves for describing the destruction of the British welfare state in The Scotsman as “progressive”.

    Reeves also makes the case that if you want less cuts to the DWP budget and want to preserve what’s left of the British welfare state then vote for the Tories at the next UK general election. Given the Parliamentary Labour Party support and vote for Tory policies anyway that shouldn’t be too much of an ideological problem for Labour’s tribalist supporters. The only problem is how to spin it as the opposite in order to fool people into voting for them as some kind alternative.

    Tougher than Tories pledge will help No camp – MP

  88. handclapping says:

    What it does show, with England, Scotland, Wales and NI all going in different directions over “NHS” provision, the workless being branded as benefit scroungers and life expectancy up by 60% since our social security system was set up, is that it is time for the whole of social security provision to be re-examined.

    Just remember that when the post war system was being considered by the people we were in an age when dying at 54 was greeted with “Well he had a good innings then.”, reaching 65 for most meant you were a physical wreck and could look forward to 2 years of increasing pain before you died, everybody was personally aware of the disaster brought on a family in the event of worklessness through illness and unemployment. Thankfully most of these drivers of the 1940’s social security system don’t exist today but the system still does.

    Is a health service designed to get workers back into the community still relevant when it spends half its time preventing death amongst the retired? Why should workers pay for 66 year olds to cruise the Carribean, why not have the 66 year olds still working and send 36 year olds instead? What we need is another Beveridge Report and another passing of the decision down to everybody as was done by the Army Education Corps, WEA, etc. in 1942-5 but are we likely to get it in our 2 party Westminster if we vote No? No.

    We need to vote Yes just to get the chance of making a social security system fit for purpose in 2020 and for the people of Scotland

  89. macart763m says:


    No contest, the big C didnae stand a chance wi you. 🙂

    You’ve got a fair bit of carnage to do yet. 😀

  90. heedtracker says:

    Guardian news daily monstering Scotland as per but future not Lord Gordon Brown is now a sexist and thats from another labour disaster called Harriet, who didn’t get promoted because she’s a girl. But rehab for Crash goes on, as he wants all the girls kidnapped by Nigerian terrorists saved which is vey noble of Gordon but why was there no concern for the three quaters of a million Iraqi civilians that have been killed since Brown’s New Labour charged off to unwinable war, some of that three quaters of a million people may have been girls?

    Down with sexism, war is good, but not too close to TeamGB or we strip away your civil liberty, let alone privacy. Good old Crash.

  91. Harry McAye says:

    The Daily Record are due credit for publishing that but, being picky, if it had been the other way round ie vote No to save the NHS, it would have been the leader in the Record View comment column. As it is, not a mention of Dr Whitford’s concerns.

    Re Question Time tonight, more BBC bias. A No voting (I’m assuming) businessman against a singer and retired agony aunt/columnist. As said earlier, why not get the fantastic Ivan McKee? I think we all know why.

  92. Robert Peffers says:

    Now I’ve been around political matters in Scotland for many, many years. Way back some years ago I did not understand what this strange new concept called the Barnett Formula was, what it was designed to do and how it would work in practice.

    I thus asked the then predominately Labour MPs what it was all about. To my great surprise I found they had even less understanding than I had. Most in fact suddenly remembering prior urgent appointments they had somehow forgotten about.

    So here is a Wiki take on the Barnett Formula : –

    The formula distributes expenditure to the constituent countries of the UK in proportion to their population. It applies only to expenditure on issues which the devolved administrations (as opposed to UK central government) are responsible for. Its principle is that any increase or reduction in expenditure in England will automatically lead to a proportionate increase or reduction in resources for the devolved governments in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Analogous arrangements apply to categories of expense which are only controlled by some of the devolved governments. The formula is not applied to all public expenditure, but is the default option if no other decisions are made. Expenditure is allocated en bloc, not by service, allowing each devolved administration to allocate these funds as it believes appropriate.

    I had a Google and found a Westminster Government funded report that said this : –

    Northern Ireland received £5,684 per head:21 percent above the UK average spend per head and £1,161 more per head than that spent in England.

    Scotland received £5,676 per head: 21 percent above the UK average and £1,153 more per head than that spent in England.

    Wales received £5,050 per head: 8 percent above the UK average and £527 more per head than that spent in England.

    England received £4,523 per head :3 percent below the UK average.

    Anyone care to do a Rev Stu style analysis of the above?

    It’s not really that hard to spot.

  93. Ellie says:

    Kezia Dugdale is doing the classic distraction technique, she doesn’t have a single answer to any one of Phillipa Whitford’s points so she thinks if she flaps her hands and shrieks fear fear we will all forget what the good doctor has to say.

    We won’t, I would encourage everyone to share any one of Ms Whitford’s speeches (there are loads out there) far and wide as I don’t think I have heard ANYONE spell out the dangers of voting no as well as she has.

  94. muttley79 says:


    Poor old Martin Kettle has yet another article telling us all that Scotland does not need to be independent. I cannot muster the necessary will power required to read it, the same goes for Cochers and Brian Wilson.

  95. jim says:

    I think she has done Philipa Whitford a great service as she has made the story known on her twitter page which will backfire on her as the no and undecided voters research the story for themselves which is what most people will do, I know I did.

  96. mogabee says:

    The NHS Together page is delightfully empty and appears that most of the comments have been deleted!

    Debate? Hah…

  97. joe kane says:

    Just to let people know, BBC Radio 4 Any Questions tomorrow (Friday) is from Pollockshields involving Nicola Sturgeon, the excellent Lesley Riddoch, and Rory the Tory who will be holding hands across the border with ginger crate enthusiast MP Jim Murphy. There shouldn’t be any problems making up the numbers for the audience given the alarming amount of stalkers following Jim Murphy all over Scotland at the moment.

    Any Questions

  98. jim says:

    These people are not politicians or politically motivated rather they have vast experience in their field of expertise, and they will be listened to.

  99. Dave Lewis says:

    Was at the Alloa Yes meeting NHS Consultant Catriona Plagliari spoke up for NHS Yes. If you visit the Clacks YES Facebook page you will find the video tell your friends.
    This was her first public speaking event, also there was Dr Stevan Watson for Academics for Yes more food for thought share with your friends. More power and debunking of the No argument.

  100. muttley79 says:

    Kezia Dugdale is not exactly the shrewdest political operator is she? Nobody needs to answer as it is a rhetorical question…A shrewd, canny politician would have instantly recognised that this was very, very difficult to answer for her side of the argument (given Burnham’s comments, the privatisation of the NHS in England, the consequences of Barnett consequentials etc).

    Instead Dugdale rushes on to her Twitter page to make the most shallow, and obviously misleading point imaginable. Which has thereby given publicity to the article and views of Doctor Whitford from the Yes side, while at the same time not even attempting to counter the arguments put forward by the good Doctor!! If this is not the sign of emerging political genius from Kezia Dugdale, I don’t know what is… 😀 😀

  101. dennis mclaughlin says:

    When are people going to wake up and realise the truth in what the good doctor is warning us of here in Scotland….this needs more airtime on billboards,posters .
    anything to be handed to the public out there ‘cos it is dynamite for YES…surely YES HQ can capitalise on positive information for once…are you listening Mr Jenkins?.

  102. heedtracker says:

    Crystal radio 4 ball time and tomorrow Jim Murphy will tell audience UKOK WMD’s are cheap, last New Labour gov scrapped nuclear weapons and want to scrap Trident but can only scrap Trident if/when every other global power like UKOK also scraps them too and that’s why Labour are going to buy £100+ billion Trident 2.

    All if which is rational why teamGB needs two new aircraft carriers while global powers like the UK, such as Russia, only need one carrier, and Russia has rather more of the worlds oceans to watch too, or rather more than the English channel, plus bits of the southern North Sea, after the 18th Sept 2014. Rule New Labour’s future Britannia

  103. Ian Mackay says:

    The British Medical Journal has this on privatisation of the NHS in England:-

    Repeated government denials about NHS privatisation don’t stand up to scrutiny.

    […] the government’s attempt to deny privatisation of the NHS by claiming that NHS services will remain publicly funded and free at the point of delivery does not escape the WHO definition if services are delivered by non-governmental actors, such as private and third sector (voluntary and community) organisations. This is clearly a stated objective of the reforms.

    […] The Health and Social Care Bill will therefore result in increasing privatisation of the English NHS according to all five of these criteria. In fact, this is in keeping with the “supply side” economic policies of this government, which promote privatisation throughout the entire public sector, as the prime minister promised in February…

  104. TJenny says:

    Robert Peffers – does the Barnett consequential give any breakdown of how much Scotland, NI and Wales contribute to the Treasury per head?

    There will also be more spend per head in England from the consolidated fund (treasury black hole) for such one ofs as new London sewage system, Crossrail etc, which do not have a Barnett consequential, thereby skewing the perceived lower spend per head in England, as illustrated above,

  105. dennis mclaughlin says:

    Whit’s happening here?,posted a comment that disapeared down a rabbit hole and PAYPAL Indiegogo thingy just crashed out on me ….WTF Rev ?.

  106. Jim Marshall says:

    heedtracker 2.54

    Britannia waives the rules.

  107. muttley79 says:

    A quote from the article on Better Nation, from a so-called Labour insider about Kezia Dugdale:

    Kez has incredibly sharp political antennae.

    Whoosh… 😀

  108. Lesley-Anne says:

    ianbeag, if you contact YES Clydesdale they should be able to help you out with regards delivery. As I said in response to a similar query yesterday the falgs themselves were held up by U.K. Customs. They gave no explanation as to why but even after opening some of the boxes they still held on to them apparently.

    Molly says:

    The Labour Party haven’t really got the hang of this internetty thing yet , have they?

    Thanks for your support Molly and yes I agree they have absolutely no concept of how to use the internet so they assume, wrongly 😉 , that we have no idea about how to use it either. How wrong they are. 😛

    Thanks for your support Les, and yes I guess I was meant to still be around. After all when your middle name is MAYHEM what else are you supposed to do but cause as much chaos and mayhem as possible! 😉

    Aye your right there Macart. See me I’ll face up to anything and gie it the beating o it’s miserable existance cause I’m no going onywhere but to the polls on the 18th September to get my vote in to ensure my country becomes FREE from Westminster once and for all! 😛

    I’m maybe not able to go and do all the canvassing or walking about but I’ll do what I can when I can to ensure WE win in September. I will NEVER take the “you cannae dae this, that or the other” from anyone who is more interested in themselves or getting their snout into the Westminster gravy train!

  109. Jim Marshall says:

    Lesley-Anne 2.59

    You are beautiful when you get angry !

  110. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh I’m sorry this is O/T but my partner has just told me this story, which I love! 😛

    My partner has a friend on Facebook through their interest in Westerns and the Western village Tranquility up in Aberdeenshire. Anyway, he was a NO voter and over time she has been trying to convince him to vote YES, as we do 😉 , and in the process sent him a copy of the mini White Paper. Anyway he had a couple of friends drop in the other day who were ardent NO voters. They took one look at the mini White paper and said it was shite. His response was “have you read it?” they replied “No! but it’s shite anyway.” So he invited them to read it and to cut an overly long story, so far 😉 , short by the time they had left they were both at least Dont Knows if not already YES supporters. 😛

    WE are winning the argument and the fight 🙂

  111. Lesley-Anne says:

    Jim Marshall says:

    Lesley-Anne 2.59

    You are beautiful when you get angry !

    You think I’m angry now Jim, just wait till I get back from the *ahem* secret debate in Eaglesfield tonight THEN you’ll see angry. 😛

  112. a2 says:

    Pedant alert, sorry.

    There’s no “c” in Pollokshields! It’s a mistake I have made to my cost more than once. (And there’s not an e at the end of Livingston either)

  113. ronnie anderson says:

    Rev. A Vortex, ah think ave entered the Matrix this morning with Carmichiel on energy,noo Wee Kezza cutting oot the story fae the Record to prove a point ( whit point ) Dr Whitford is advocating a Yes vote to save SNHS/NHS,Kezza,s advocating a No vote & there will be no SNHS/NHS, jist contact me at confused dot com.

    There’s no wan politicion who could paint straight on a blank wa wie a straight roller

  114. Jim Marshall says:

    Lesley-Anne 3.11

    lol, I”m glad I”m on your side.

  115. Peter Macbeastie says:

    Clash City Rocker…. hear hear.

    Although I’m pretty sure none amongst us think we’re doing anything particularly worthy of praise, and as for thanks for any particular effort, well, falling asleep, in a happy drunken stupor, in the early hours of 19th September with the words ‘Scotland has voted for independence’ still ringing in our collective ears would surely count as thanks enough for anyone. It would be the ultimate confirmation that all our efforts have had an effect.

    Although remuneration is always nice….. 😉

  116. Lesley-Anne says:

    Safest side to be on Jim, come to think about it it’s the ONLY side to be on. 😛

  117. heedtracker says:

    @ Jim Marshall, defence and health care are just two of the issues behind my Yes vote. I want a constitution for Scotland that stops maniacs like Brown and Blair and Darling and all the other Westminster New labour nutters like that one tweeting up there, from ever going to war, with constitutional protection of Scots Health care. Plus they have to drop the N in Scotland’s health service for starters.

  118. Jim Marshall says:

    a2 3.14

    One of the few dislikes about Wings are people who nit pick on spelling and grammar. Best ignore them as we need to keep our eyes on the prize.

  119. Jim Marshall says:

    heedtracker 3.17

    Totally agree. I would go even further and say that these Labour wallahs should be getting tried in The Hague.

  120. Jim Marshall says:

    Peter MacBeastie 3.16
    Although remuneration is always nice….. 😉

    Alex has told me I”m getting Edinburgh Castle.

  121. joe kane says:

    Public health expert Prof Allyson Pollock (with a “c”) actually stated the other week on the BBC Radio Scotland morning current affairs show that the NHS in England has been abolished. Maybe Kezia would like to accuse the Prof. of scaremongering in her favourite newspaper, the Daily Mosley.

    The Sunday Post picked up on the story here –
    Top health academic: England has abolished its National Health Service

    In case you haven’t seen it, here is the Prof’s excellent talk on the matter –
    Privatisation of the NHS: Allyson Pollock at TEDxExeter

  122. scottish_skier says:

    Hmm, Orwellian levels of spying enforced in a totally anti-democratic way causing uproar added to elite UK government paedophile rings.

    Interesting last minute campaigning from Better Together certainly.

    I figured they’d go hard hitting, but I hadn’t envisaged this stuff I must admit.

  123. desimond says:

    @joe kane

    Careful Joe, youre spelling Pollok(shields) the same way the Orange Order did on their VOTE NO banner in a recent march.

    You arent are you?, surely not!

  124. desimond says:

    And to think Kezia is seen as the next big thing in Labour.

    Just imagine her standing side by side with Jim Murphy leading the new Scottish Labour Democrat Party making empty promises for the benefit of a new Scotland.

    Give it 2 generations, or say 20 years and Labour will be the new Liberals. I can see the ‘Scottish Conservative and Non Union Party’ actually becoming the main opposition in our new free nation while a regular coalition of positive and open parties work together to make our land a better place for all concerned and more and more Scots hear the phrase “Labour” and only ever think of childbirth

  125. ianbeag says:

    Lesley-Anne (2-59pm)
    Thanks for the lead re. delivery of YES flags. Pole is ready for the ceremonial!

  126. alistair says:

    About the flags, I don’t know when individual ones are getting sent out. I know that Mark (tartanpigsy) was going to be at T in the park this weekend and hoping to get a few flying for the TV’s ! Watch out and see if the Beeb can edit out all of them in the audience – or focus in on as many union jacks as they are apt to do on any recent news bulletin !!

  127. alistair says:

    Also, if you’re in Stirling or nearabouts I am delivering out my boxful and can get you one.

  128. Murray McCallum says:

    There must be a time vortex too.

    I am sure I just heard Ed Miliband on the radio talking about strikes not being the right thing to do, not supporting them, and going into a rehearsed bland phrase about getting back to the negotiating table.

  129. Dougie says:

    Great article on the effect of a No vote its scary reading

  130. desimond says:

    @Murray McCallum

    I recall at the most recent Labour leadership campaign, the candidates all sat in a Question time special and a London firefighter told them how the service was being slashed and the workers being forced to walk or accept reduced conditions which made them want to strike.

    When asked “Will you support this strike?”, not one of the candidates would back the firefighters. Only David Miliband seemed even interested and he asked to discuss the matter immediately after the show with the fireman and colleagues.

    Shameful stuff. Labour: the party of the Working man not the Striking man.

  131. Lesley-Anne says:

    Glad to hear you’ve got your flag pole ready ianbeag. I have to admit the flag does look great flying proudly atop a flag pole. We had 60 delivered to us last week as well as 60 fro YES Dumfries. I think almost all of ours went within minutes of letting it be known at our YES South Annandale meeting they were available. 😉 I am certain that when you get your flag you’ll feel just as proud as we did when we raised ours. 😛

    I have some left but I’m waiting to hear from YES Stewartry and YES Wigtown cause Mark wanted the flags to be spread as far along the South here as we could.

  132. joe kane says:

    desimond at 3.59 pm has outed me a NAW front for the Friends of George Galloway Appreciation Society. Ulster says NO er, I mean, George says naw or something.

    Regarding flags, in my wee humble Scottish working class housing scheme one of the neighbours has actually erected a flagpole with a Saltire on top of it. Unbelievable. I’ve never seen this before.

  133. Lesley-Anne says:

    Anyone with nothing better to do tonight might want to give a brief, very brief, consideration to watching the anti independence programme Question Time tonight as it comes from Inverness. Apparently the panel consists of:

    Ricky Ross a singer – songwriter

    Joan Burnie Daily Record columnist and agony aunt (I’m sure that should be EX columnist but there again it is the BBC here 🙂 )

    Alan Savage businessman and chairman of Orion Group

    Scott Hastings Scotland and British Lions rugby player (again I’m sure Scott is an EX player but what do I know 😉 )

  134. Silver19 says:

    OT: I see the OBR are forecasting more doom about the North Sea oil.
    I reckon by 18th September OBR will be telling us there is no oil left.

  135. jon esquierdo says:

    I spoke to doctor Whitford on Monday night at Prestwick and managed to get on the telly. I have been pushing the plight of the NHS in England for the last six months and all my printed leaflets refer to the same . I can assure all wings readers it is THEE big vote changer

  136. Mary Bruce says:

    Dear Kezia Dugdale, if you are so confident that the NHS is safe, will you guarantee to pay my family’s health insurance policies for ever if it does become privatised within the next 20 years?

  137. Andy-B says:

    Dr Whitford makes a convincing case for independence,Scots are proud of their NHS and want to keep it free at the point of service, that’s why a yes vote is a must. Miss Dugdale knows this only to well but she’s being a good wee girl and towing the party line.

    Meanwhile, back at the madhouse half of these clowns will be attending the Edinburgh march on September 13th.

  138. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    For those who still doubt the blatantly obvious push for privatisation in the NHS perhaps they would like to take it up with this avaricious MP and his other Blue Labour pals.

    Alistair Darling paid thousands by NHS Privatisation Company

    Labour MP Alistair Darling was paid thousands of pounds by a company heavily involved in the privatisation of the English NHS, it has emerged.

    In 2011, the Edinburgh MP who heads the anti-independence campaign Better Together, received over £10,000 for addressing a dinner organised by Cinven Limited.

    The company is a leading buyout firm, who in 2008 bought 25 private hospitals from Bupa for £1.44bn. Other UK investments include Spire Healthcare, who run private healthcare hospitals, and whose clinical director Jean-Jacques de Gorter said the use of private sector would “spiral” as a result of Conservative MP Andrew Lansley’s reform proposals.

    Mr Darling, who this week will give a speech on behalf of Better Together, is one of a string of current and former Labour MPs who have links to or have benefitted financially from companies involved in private health care.

    Others who have benefitted include Mr Darling’s former Labour cabinet colleagues Alan Milburn and Patricia Hewitt who were both former Health Secretaries. Hewitt was a former advisor to Cinven and landed a lucrative £55,000 role with the firm after standing down as an MP.

    When in office, Milburn received tens of thousands of pounds from several firms involved in private health care.

    I’m looking forward to this Blue Labour privatiser being taken to task for his unprincipled greed.

  139. galamcennalath says:

    Test? Posting funny again?

  140. Iain Gray's Subway Lament says:

    Today has also seen the spectacle of Clegg, Cameron and Miliband lining up to rush through and endorse the rebranded snoopers charter to trample all over the public’s civil liberties.

    Watching Clegg’s loyal spinners trying to pretend this is nothing to worry about would have been hilarious were it not so repulsive.

    Sadly for Clegg’s obedient and well rewarded minions the Director of Liberty Shami Chakrabarti has smashed their feeble spin to pieces.

    The Lib Dems really have sold their soul for a few cabinet jobs and it just proves beyond any doubt they really are nothing more than yellow tories. Their annihilation at the hands of the public in 2015 can’t come soon enough and it will be very well deserved indeed.

  141. Capella says:

    @ Robert Peffers 2.20
    “England received £4,523 per head :3 percent below the UK average.”
    I don’t understand how England can be getting less than the average if the other countries are getting more to reflect increases in English spending as explained in the Wiki article. Any idea how that works?

  142. Famous15 says:

    I do not agree with Iain McWhirter.In particular I do not agree that Scotland requires the oil revenue to be viable.The oil ,to me,is but a fortunate bonus.Why does he think that Scotland uniquely cannot be viable given all the other resources available to it?

    As for the anti Scottish resentment boiling over if there is a NO vote,I might just join in with that one if that unlikely result occurred!

  143. T222Deracha says:

    More than £10 Billions pounds was spent on the London Olympics and billions are being spent on the Commonwealth Games. The NHS has suffered from underfunding for years, it is plain to see where Westminster priorities lie. Apparently that appears to be okay, for there has been very little dissent about it.
    If Scotland sleepwalks into a NO vote, then those voters can have little to complain about, when the real austerity bites!

  144. Lesley-Anne says:

    There is one wee snag with your post there T222Deracha. Westminster has not paid a penny towards the Glasgow Commonwealth games, not for the want of asking mind you. According to WM we are not worthy of any financial support when it comes to world events happening in Scotland!

  145. YESGUY says:

    Who the hell do these arseholes think they are. Wee want none of these thugs in my city and if there is trouble it will only fire the YES vote up even further.

    Bloody Orange men from Belfast what the hell do they think they achieve ???????

    Fuck off back to your own city and shit all over there.

  146. @Robert Peffers
    The reason England gets less is because it has privatised a lot more of the Public Sector than Scotland and NI,like Water,Academies,bits of ukNHS,they are selling of anything to pay the interest on there £1.5 trillion debt.

  147. Robert Peffers says:

    @TJenny says: 10 July, 2014 at 2:57 pm

    “does the Barnett consequential give any breakdown of how much Scotland, NI and Wales contribute to the Treasury per head”?

    It is even more simple than that, although it is true that the Scottish Per Capita GDP is higher than the UK average. The fact is that the claim that the Barnett Formula is, Needs Based is just not true. It began as straight per capita share out. Then the Scottish MPs made the case that as it cost more to provide services in sparsely populated areas was higher, so a quite small needs adjustment was made but that was before devolution..

    The point is that when devolved parliaments came along the Barnett Formula took on a quite different function. When Westminster devolved a function from Westminster to Holyrood the funding for that function had to also be transferred to Holyrood. As Scotland has more devolved functions than any other devolved parliament, Scotland obviously requires the extra funds to run the extra functions.

    What though of England? England has no devolved function and no parliamentary departments to pay for either. What’s more many English functions are paid from sources that do NOT have Barnett Consequentials. That means all UK tax payers contribute to pay for English only functions but get no benefits from them.

    The New London Sewerage System cost £4.2 Bn and was funded from Government Reserves that carry no Barnett Consequentials. The equivalent English Funding should have been from DEFRA that does carry Barnett Consequentials. To rub salt into the wound, they gave a £60 per South East England Household rebate with that money. Scotland should have had something like 9.8% of that £4,2 Bn.

    Add in the Government grant to set up things like Transport for London and the cost of the London Cross-Rail system. London Olympics and so on that we partly paid for.

    Get the picture now? They have no devolved parliament to pay for and all the UK pays for English functions devolved or not. Here’s another – every London rail and bus terminal was refurbished at the UK taxpayers expense. Who pays for, “The National Gallery”, “British Museum”, et al?

  148. Brotyboy says:

    @ Andrew

    Looking forward to your next post in about 7 hours. Think I know what it will be about, down to the last letter.

    Ever heard of the Law of Diminishing Returns?

  149. HandandShrimp says:

    Is Kezia a Tory now?


  150. Lesley-Anne says:

    Well it looks like the Better Thanks/No Together are finally coming out of their shell and are up for a debate… with motor vehicles! 😛

    I have just heard that after a meeting in Dunfermline recently folks came out to see cars with YES stickers on them now had a NAW sticker covering up the YES sticker. The same has happened in Islay as well. FEART! that’s what Better Thanks/ NO Together are. They are TERRIFIED of having an actual balanced debate so they just, as that lovely Labour M.P. in Edinburgh would say, vandalise people’s pride and joy with NAW stickers. Aye well they’ll have some job NAW stickering my JEEP that’s for sure, you cannae just stick one sticker on our JEEP. You’d be there for hours trying to cover up all the PRO independence stuff. 😛

  151. kininvie says:

    Can someone explain to me what the effect of NHS privatisation would be on the public accounts? Presumably since the govt. is still paying for the services, that money can’t just be removed from the public spending bill? So I don’t see what financial advantage the government gets from privatisation, unless in some way they can double count the private & public NHS activity and get a boost to GDP.

    Presumably, if the public spend on the English NHS remains as is, there would be no Barnett consequentials?

    What am I missing?

  152. Lesley-Anne says:

    I don’t know the in’s and out’s of it kininvie but when Westminster privatises part of the N.,H.S. then that portion of the N.H.S. bill no longer comes under the Barnett Formula calculations. I’m trying to remember where I heard it explained but it escapes me at the moment. No doubt it was one of the multitude of videos I have watched about the PRO’s for independence. 😉

  153. Giving Goose says:


    In answer to your question; effectively, yes she is a Tory.
    Kezia may attach a different label to herself, but she follows and supports Tory ideology and policies.
    In addition, when you consider that Better Together, or the No campaign, is basically a front for the aspirations of the Tory Party, then Kezia’s boss is David Cameron.

  154. HandandShrimp says:


    There are all sorts of knock on effects. For example, the staff are no longer counted as Government employees and pension liabilities are cut. These movements of figures off balance sheet will impact on Barnett. There will not be any direct cut to the Scottish NHS but the amount of money that the Scottish Government would have would be affected. If there was a No vote some sort of Debo Max would be essential to ensure that Holyrood could raise its own funds to cover Scottish priorities.

  155. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Lesley Anne at 4.54

    Joan Burnie has been an effective and outspoken supporter of independence for many years and she is usually sharp as a tack. Ricky Ross is highly articulate (and you should hear his wife Lorraine McIntosh sing “The Freedom Come A’Ye).

    I’m confident they will more than hold their own against a dull Better Together two who do not effectively represent ordinary Scots

  156. scottish_skier says:

    Can someone explain to me what the effect of NHS privatisation would be on the public accounts?

    Well, once you farm out to the private sector, everything becomes more expensive (see USA) given the profit component.

    You then say ‘well, some of these services are not totally essential so they should be covered / fully covered’. Also ‘those with more money should pay’ which brings in means testing. You now have a payment system in place and have got the public paying for things they already paid for though taxes but now are having to pay for again so the private companies can make profit.

    Then, with your payment system in place, you progressively reduce what services are free. Soon, a small fee is required for hospital food… then eventually a bed… All the time you make ‘cuts’ to the budget bit by bit.

    Anyway, as the NHS becomes increasingly not free, with higher taxpayers having to pay both high taxes and not getting healthcare for that, they start to get pissed off.

    When they resort to taking out health insurance, they really get pissed off with those ‘feckless disabled, poor’ etc getting free healthcare off their backs and so increasingly vote for parties which advocate low taxes / a cut to the NHS budget which no longer gives them care but just those feckless poor etc.

    It’s all done as stealthily as possible.

    20 years is probably needed for it to be completely private and with everyone on personal health insurance bar the poor. They might be able to get emergency treatment at the poor hospital, but if they’ve got something costly to treat, then they’ll likely just die as they do in the states.

  157. Flooplepoop says:

    Privatising the N.H.S isn’t about making it better, it’s to make money for Tories and their donors which Labour are now trying to muscle in on.
    All the tax money that’s wasted on providing a service unless it goes through a private company to cream profit off it.

  158. scottish_skier says:

    so they should not be covered

  159. scottish_skier says:

    Tories want the NHS to fail.

    Hospitals in debt up to their necks is music to a Tory’s ear.

    The worse state it is in, the worse the waiting times, the dirtier they are, the crapper the food, the more mistakes are made causing death, the happier the Tories are.

    All those problems, and people who pay more taxes getting charged through means testing for an increasingly crappy service, gets these people going private and seeking a tax cut due to no longer using the NHS so not wanting to pay for it…

  160. James123 says:

    I see that Scott Hastings will be on Question Time tonight, this is what his brother Gavin said last year about the referendum:

    “I am totally against independence and I’ve already been quoted on that. No, I think that would be the worst possible thing for us. But you understand where I’m coming from, because it’s all about exposure to the bigger picture, and Scotland is not the bigger picture. It never will be. We will not be able to do it amongst ourselves – we need to see the global picture in front us and be part of that picture, and, in my opinion, we will never be part of that were we to be an independent nation – which, by the way, we won’t be.”

    If you can decipher this utter drivel then please let me know.

  161. Bob Sinclair says:

    £10 million from MOD to clean up Dalgety Bay. Well that might be enough to pay for a feasibility study but will not even scrape the surface when it comes to actially carrying out the work.

  162. Bob Sinclair says:

    I do remember watching Gavin Hastings being knocked senseless during a game. Must have caused irreparable damage. Sorry I can’t help with deciphering.

  163. heedtracker says:

    Radio 4 PM Eddie Mair is a national treasure show, had Jim Naughtie chuntering on about what they’ll call the UK if etc, empty grot but then they went over to Norway and monstered them too.

    PM choob says Norway is deeply insular and small and once a year dress up in silly national costume. Patience of saints Norwegians even if they are such an insulated bunch of silly little non British types. Oh and Norway is very silly and insular and small as they said no to the EU twice.

    What would we do without the creepy old teamGB Beeb propaganda machine. But at least now teamGB spooks can find out exactly who everyone is that reads blogs like WoS just by calling our web provider, saves time I suppose or, UKOK fascists on the march.

  164. James123 says:

    @Bob Sinclair
    I do remember watching Gavin Hastings being knocked senseless during a game. Must have caused irreparable damage.

    That explains it, poor guy is totally confused.

  165. TJenny says:

    Robert Peffers – thanks, that was what I was trying to highlight – all the spend in England that doesn’t result in extra consequential money to Scotland or elsewhere in UK. I have often wondered why we don’t keep all our money and only send our pro capita % down to WM for defence etc (well I haven’t really) and I guess that why, under devolution, we were not allowed and still don’t have, our own Scottish treasury.

    Kininvie – if part of NHS England is privatised, then the private company is responsible for running costs/overheads. This means that the Treasury don’t have to spend as much on ENHS therefore our share of the spend is also pro rata smaller.

  166. Ken500 says:

    The Daily Record is changing.

  167. James123 says:

    The Daily Record is changing.

    The DR is editorially pro-Union. It will occasionally publish pro-independence articles to give the perception of balance but it is primarily a newspaper the prints and publishes pro-Union bullshit.

  168. Robert Peffers says:

    @desimond says:
    10 July, 2014 at 4:10 pm :

    “And to think Kezia is seen as the next big thing in Labour.”

    Is that before or after Jackie Baillie, desimond?

    The point I was making upthread is that in many, many years of asking Labour people, (and remember my MP includes a former Labour Chancellor/Prime Minister), I have yet to find just one who can explain correctly how the Barnett Formula works and what it was designed to do before & after devolution.

    So how does Kezia get round the simple fact that when the combined Westminster blue/red/yellow Tory alliance reduces the English NHS service to a private company run, paid at point of delivery, service, the treasury funding is zilch and The Barnett Consequentials reduce the Scottish/ Welsh and N. Irish Block Grants by that per capita sum?

    They have form. That was exactly what happened when they brought in tuition fees. Remember too they are privitising Prison services and the Police forces. Meanwhile there is a very long list of HOC, HOL and political people’s family members with their fingers so far into the privatising company pies you cannot see their shoulders.

  169. Giving Goose says:

    Re the Hasting brothers;

    80 minute patriots (actually, the term patriot used on these two is insulting to genuine Scottish patriots).

  170. cynicalHighlander says:

    According to Sunday Herald editor he suspects anther paper could come out.

  171. Harry McAye says:

    Any Hamilton Wingers see this week’s Advertiser? It’s the first one I’ve bought in weeks so I cannot say whether Yes have had similar prominece that James Kelly MSP gets in a large article entitled “Don’t Risk Your Cash Future On A Yes Vote”, in which he comes out with usual BT scaremongering nonsense – “I believe in the social solidarity which comes with pooling and sharing our resources across a family of nations of 60 million people”
    “The Yes campaign have not come up with credible answers on pensions. Various independent experts have criticised their calculations for being presumptive or weak, and the fact is they CANNOT GUARANTEE WHAT CURRENCY A PENSION IN A SEPARATE SCOTLAND WOULD BE PAID IN (my capitals), never mind how much it would be.”

    He goes on making the same point again and again about being in it together with the rest of the UK. Notwithstanding the bombshell piece last night on here, these questions and fears have been answered over and over and while we might expect James Kelly to keep repeating the fear rhetoric, it does seem that for many this pensions issue is still a big one and has yet to be put to bed. What is the answer? I don’t know if I can be bothered to write in again as I’ve only had one letter published by them recently and it was the least important one I’d written. Anyone who fancies a crack, it’s

  172. Bugger (the Panda) says:


    If the polls move to Yes the Sun will declare.

    They have form, you know?

  173. Harry McAye says:

    Apologies if I’m a bit thick and this facility already exists, but a go-to feature on here bringing as many key articles as possible under the banner of Pensions, Currency, etc would certainly help me to reference facts to rebut the likes of Mr Kelly MSP.

  174. Jim Marshall says:

    Marian 12.13

    2By the way there’s an excellent piece on Cognitive Dissonance by Margaret and Jim Cuthbert over on Bella Caledonia – see

    This explanation by Frantz Fanon explains the closed mindset of the naws very succinctly. No matter how much contrary evidence they are confronted with, they cling to the core belief that British is best.

  175. Jim Marshall says:

    Harry McAye 7.23

    “Any Hamilton Wingers see this week’s Advertiser? It’s the first one I’ve bought in weeks so I cannot say whether Yes have had similar prominece that James Kelly MSP gets in a large article entitled “Don’t Risk Your Cash Future On A Yes Vote”, in which he comes out with usual BT scaremongering nonsense – “I believe in the social solidarity which comes with pooling and sharing our resources across a family of nations of 60 million people”

    Obvious answer here Harry is that the EU has 742 million and that”s a better club to be in with a seat at the top table.

  176. Gary says:

    They all know, as we do, the direction the NHS is taking. No one in the UK backs this, just politicians. In re independence they agree one thing for one reason. Keep Scotland, self interest..

  177. Jim Marshall says:

    Ken500 7.08

    The Daily Record is changing.”

    You never know, one day it may change from a comic into a newspaper.

  178. Bigheed says:

    This article is just one of a hundred reasons why we must achieve a YES vote for both ourselves but for future generations. It scares the beejeezous out of me if this goes against us.

    Can I just say a big shout out to the Maserati that passed me in Bothwell with a YES sticker, made me think of what is the best car you have seen with a YES sticker.

    Also, to the good people staying on the North Shore in Ardrossan, who seem to be going for the first street in Scotland to all declare their YES intentions….WELL DONE!

  179. Robert Peffers says:

    Capella says: 10 July, 2014 at 5:27 pm

    “England received £4,523 per head :3 percent below the UK average.”
    I don’t understand how England can be getting less than the average if the other countries are getting more to reflect increases in English spending as explained in the Wiki article. Any idea how that works?”.

    Aaarrrrgh! I just typed out a long explanation only for it to suddenly vanish!

    I’ll try a more brief example this time.

    This is the old story of not showing both sides of the equation. They do this all the time and they always have done.

    Here it is in really simple terms.
    Mr & Mrs Brown have a combined income of £500.
    So does Mr & Ms Black.

    Mr & Mrs Black have just been sent along to the food bank as they are starving.

    Thing is the Browns are a childless couple with four rich parents while the Blacks are both second marriages and have six kids and four aged parents between them to keep.

    The rule is you must not only compare like with like but also operate upon both sides of the equation. Take Transport – Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland fund theirs from within their block grant.

    So the figures in the accounts labelled, “United Kingdom Transport”, are England’s only.
    But what is that over there? Nope! It’s not a wee Squirrel, it’s, “Transport for London”. Oh! There’s another – London Cross-Rail. Duck! That one near got you – the refurbishment of every Rail & bus terminal. Oops! Mind the Extension to Heathrow. Careful to not trip over that HS1 – Damn – just trod on an HS2.

    Now what was it we were saying?
    Oh! Yes, now I remember – where’s the figures for English Transport funding?
    Can’t seen to find them anywhere

  180. John Young says:

    Revealing info on Trident which was new to me but perhaps not to you. Including the ” 58 leased Trident missiles”

  181. Capella says:

    Robert Peffers. thanks for the explanation. I THINK I got that. Usual creative acounting! This post may not appear for some time as I notice they are sometimes in moderation for a couple of hours. probably the DDOS again.
    Hi GCHQ hope you’re enjoying this thread!

  182. Rock says:


    “@ Andrew

    Looking forward to your next post in about 7 hours. Think I know what it will be about, down to the last letter.

    Ever heard of the Law of Diminishing Returns?”

    Our Andrew makes some shameless trolls / spammers on this website appear quite reasonable in comparison.

  183. Bob Sinclair says:

    Yet another positive Scottish Government story that the BBC omitted to mention.

    Its this kind of thing that makes me feel really positive about Independent Scotland’s place in the World. With no need to fund illegal and disastrous military operations we can concentrate on providing compassion not catastrophe.

    The Scottish Government has said that Scottish hospitals are ready to treat civilians affected by violence in Gaza.

  184. pro-loco says:

    Re: Scott Hastings and brother and all those other rugby types saying no. It’s quite clear that many of these are ex public schoolboys likely to have been shown the network of the school tie “…and all of this will be yours if you follow the Conservative way…” . After their rugby career they’ll find themselves in obscure finance jobs, paid well to do little but be trophy employees. Scott Hastings’ little rant quoted above is basically we’re too small and too stupid to see or to participate in the big picture in our own right as Scotland. After all New Zealand is too small to be a success! Oh wait …

    Scott and Gavin were great players for Scotland – they were part of a team which rose above this kind of thinking to defeat the bigger, richer, better connected more confident (over confident!) English team of the day. We’ve got a chance to say we deserve to be taken seriously and be part of the big picture. Let’s take it.

  185. Brotyboy says:


    It’s a strange marketing concept; post on all the day’s threads after midnight with an identical appeal, piss people off, make no other contribution, and expect to be handsomely rewarded.

    Wonder what the next campaign will be for, and how soon after the end of this one he will be back on the hamster wheel?

  186. Ann says:

    Bigheed, I don’t know who makes the Alhambra model of car, but there was a cracking shiny black 2014 model with a YES sticker going along Carnegie Drive on Tuesday night.

    First one that I have actually seen around dunfermline.

  187. Morag Graham Kerr says:

    You know, I keep thinking it’s insulting to Miss Whitford to keep referring to her as Dr. Whitford. She’s a consultant surgeon. These people take pride in their promotion from mere Dr. status and back to Mr. or Miss.

    But it’s pretty widespread. Maybe she doesn’t mind?

  188. Rock says:


    “It’s a strange marketing concept; post on all the day’s threads after midnight with an identical appeal, piss people off, make no other contribution, and expect to be handsomely rewarded.”

    At least spammers / trolls like Duggie are / were annoying the opposite side.

    This idiot is annoying people on his own side and has been doing so for weeks now.

    Is he an agent provocateur?

  189. Andrew says:

    Off topic.

    Dear Wings readers,

    The Yes Scotland Information Hub is crowdfunding for four advert trailers. These will be vital in helping secure a Yes vote for the referendum on 18th September.

    Our crowd funding page is at:

    Please visit and donate what you can afford. If you are unable to donate then please help by sharing this link on Facebook and Twitter.

    Only 4 days to go so please help!

    Thank you for your support.

  190. Brotyboy says:

    @ Andrew

    You’re an hour late. But you’re still making a complete James Blunt of yourself.

Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

↑ Top