Talking ’bout a revolution
There’s much noisy chat at the moment about Jeremy Corbyn being 20 points ahead of his Labour leadership rivals on first-preference votes. His rivals seem to agree; they’ve turned their main efforts to competing amongst themselves for second and third preference “stop Corbyn” votes.
But could any of them really close such a huge gap? And what if they don’t?
Let’s take this Daily Mirror report as an example of the figures most people – including the respective campaigns – find credible. Corbyn on 42%; Cooper and Burnham with perhaps half of that each; then Kendall on around 14%.
Burnham’s been working harder on the left than Cooper, so he’ll get fewer of Blairite Kendall’s second-preferences. For the same reason, he’s losing ground to Cooper as Corbyn-sympathetic supporters realise Corbyn might really win and move across.
So it looks as though Cooper will beat Burnham. However, there are still plenty Corbyn-fanciers who’ll be staying loyal to Burnham until/unless he goes out. If/when he does, they’ll get behind Corbyn. Even if Cooper picks up almost all of Kendall’s votes by the time Burnham’s votes are transferred, it still leaves her needing twice as many of Burnham’s original votes as Corbyn does. It doesn’t look like she can do it.
(Ironically, if Burnham were to come second, armed with the Corbyn-fanciers who’d stayed loyal to Burnham, he probably could win.)
A minority element of Kendall’s votes will go to Corbyn, though. Weird? Not really. This is the “cleansing by fire” argument put by Dan Hodges – that Burnham or Cooper, having been murdered by Corbyn in the first round and in any case not remotely trustable as Blairites, would have to keep Labour way too far left and would be crushed by the Tories again in 2020.
Corbyn, these folk will hope, might self-destruct, allowing a leader from amongst the grown-ups of the new intake (ie Keir Starmer) to come in well before 2020. It seems to me that these votes might well end up being pivotal.
But what of Scotland? Plenty of Scottish Labour folk are saying Corbyn would help them defeat the SNP on the left. They couldn’t be more wrong. First, the far-left in Scotland has already irrevocably committed itself to independence. That’s just the way it is. Maybe try again after the SNP have to set tax-rates, or after independence altogether, but not before.
Meanwhile, in common with all members of the London left, Corbyn likes the SNP and believes it’s doing what Labour should be – he likely feels independence (or not) is up to the Scots and not Londoners. Think of his long-term position on Northern Ireland.
And, more to the point, Scottish Labour would have nothing more to offer him once he’d been elevated to the leadership; while the super-friendly (for now) SNP would be offering 56 votes – thank you very much.
If I were Corbyn and has just won an entirely democratic election fair and square, in the immediate aftermath I’d bind everyone into a radical-sounding but secretly-fairly-sensible programme of opposition to the Tory Party through a symbolic act of genuinely historical proportions.
I hate to be a bore about this, because I said it the other day, but I’d refuse to appoint new peers and set a date – summer 2016 – when a new upper-house election system could easily be in place and Labour would withdraw altogether from the House of Lords. With that crucial SNP support (who already boycott the Lords), it’d be interesting to see how many Labour MPs would be prepared to rebel against “New Order Labour” and in favour of allowing people to buy their way into our legislature.
The opposition Labour and SNP parties would kill off the House of Lords and there’d be nothing the Tory government could do about it. An astonishing result for an opposition partnership.
And Scottish Labour? Well, ironically they’d be stymied by their own “autonomy”. Corbyn would stay on good terms with the SNP – which would mean the latter getting credit for all manner of things in Scotland – and the UK Labour Party would contribute financially far less to a Scottish “party” which insisted it didn’t need to look to England when making any of its decisions, and which could only give Corbyn 1/56th of the votes available from the SNP.
Good interesting points Eric. I’ll have to take your insider’s word and insights on some of it, but it has the ring of truth to me. Especially the moderate lefties supporting Burnham who would transfer to Corbyn if Burnham was eliminated.
The last time Burnham figured in Scotland it was to camouflage the approach of an English army to Dunsinane, allegedly. Not a good omen anyway.
Just heard on the grapevine labour have a new conference song Its my party and I’ll lie if I want to
Slightly off the article, but interesting to see Burnham continuing to try that old Labour ploy of ‘winning’ by using tactics instead of trust.
Common Space article about how Scottish Labour would get more autonomy under him, though not be independent. All this would be in place before the Scottish elections.
So a bit management shifting, but not a word to the Scottish public. Sure to win votes!
Corbyn is just rebalancing the political spectrum and a natural progression from both being at just one end – The Tories and a carbon-copy Tory Party. Democracy has to have open views and where these have been closed down under ‘New Labour’. So it is not surprising that Labour have decided to go back to their roots and support the majority (90%) who are not within the wealth bubble of the top 10% that the Conservatives and New Labour predominantly serve. For the top 10% have increased their wealth four-fold over the Blair and present administration and where, taking inflation into account over the last 18 years, 90% of the people have seen their wealth decline substantially and poverty rise with food banks et al.
Therefore a vote for Corbyn, is a vote for an alternative, which cannot be any worse financially than they currently are and where most probably under another 5-years of Tory rule, will see their wealth decline further and their poverty increase. That is based upon historical facts and where nothing due to austerity is really changing for the majority – link to worldinnovationfoundation.blogspot.co.uk
And a vote for Corbyn is not that much of a risk, for in reality, Whitehall physically runs the show behind the scenes and provide all the reports that ministers decide upon on their policies, mostly skewed towards what Whitehall wants to see happen anyway if truth be told.
It’s a brave new world, but I like the sound of it!
Interesting premise Mr Joyce.
Not outwith the bounds, that’s for sure. Labour in Scotland’s Blairite credentials are beyond doubt when looking at their own minor management elect vote. They’ve pretty much sidelined themselves in Scotland.
Next few weeks should make for interesting viewing.
It was only a matter of time before Labour elected a left wing politician who will stand up to the Tory rich boys at Westminster. This could be the beginning of the end for the capitalist dictatorship at Westminster
[…] Talking ’bout a revolution […]
That’s a lot of good thinking time there Rev But what if….
At the last throw of the dice..Brother David were to come charging in on his white horsey to save them all from themselves
Jeremy’s done for, the other three capitulate to the Holy Dave and his greatness
BBC Labour headquarters leaps for joy at the wonderousness of it all, the Electorate sighs, the land is safe again
God Save The King
Even PC Rupert Murdoch could get the SUN to shine again in all it’s Red White and Blueness and a gentle purr of pleasure from Her Maj that the Realm will remain as it should be with both of her obedient Tory Parties to serve her bidding
Corbyn says he thinks Scotland has the right to a referendum, but he’d be much happier if things stayed the way they are now.
link to newstatesman.com
That’s not good enough in my book.
To my layman’s knowledge, the outcome of Westminster elections is usually decided by a relatively small number of key marginal seats.
These seats are mostly soft Tory middle England seats.
For these key marginals to vote Corbyn led Labour would require a sea change deterioration in their material circumstances which any Tory chancellor can largely prevent.
Only if I’m wrong about the key marginals would Corbyn have even the remotest chance of winning a Westminster election,despite what that purveyor of truth ‘The Scotsman’,may tell you.
Can’t believe someone gave a real direct link to the Scotsman in support of their argument on this site.
It is mooted that scottish labour voters would get boost if Corbin is elected. There may be some truth in this. What would happen to slab support were Corbin to be ousted 3 months later by the blairites in Westminster?
Very interesting,Mr Joyce.I think the best people to run Scotland are the people who live here.None of the contestants for the Labour leadership agree with me.Imperialist pigs the lot of them.What do you think?
Genuine question Eric
If Corbin is elected, would the blairites really try to oust him in the face of the rank and files democratic choice? And if they did, what would happen to scottish labour?
Interesting point on the lords Eric, an alternative to Labour’s usual line of needing power to make changes.
The House of Lords is interesting in that Cameron’s intended stuffing of them in order to change the balance of power simply serves to remind us of the pointlessness of them. Any sufficiently motivated HoC can pack it with cronies or override it on grounds of electoral mandate.
@Dr Jim
I believe its unlikely that brother David will come ‘charging in on his white horsey’. He is at risk from Chilcot & I doubt he’s willing to put his head above the parapet just yet until he knows what’s in that report & how much of it will be made public.
He was Foreign Secretary for 3 years from 2007 & still has questions to answer about covering up rendition flights (by the earlier Brown government) & although he admitted doing so, I believe that more will come out if Chilcot has done his job properly.
He was also accused of fighting tooth & nail to prevent documents surrounding Binyam Mohamed’s detention & rendition from being made public.
He would also have been very aware of the torture going on at Abu Graib & would have, as Foreign Secretary, sought to cover up as much UK liability as possible.
I also expect even more to come out of the woodwork if he were to return to politics-probable UK involvement in Mumbai massacre (all travelling on UK passports). That event is still suspected as being a false flag incident set up/funded by US/UK to give them an excuse to discredit Pakistan.
Pakistan has admitted since that Pakistanis from an Islamic group were involved but the details released were still sketchy & conveniently all but one of the attackers were shot & killed. At the time, UK was publicly saying that Pakistan was not doing enough to find Al Quaeda & as the rhetoric increased, it was clear that UK/US was willing to go into Pakistan. Miliband was still Foreign Sec at this point so it is inconceivable that he had no involvement in this event & the aftermath.
So by my reckoning that white horse will be staying in its stable & DM staying in his cushy US job for a good while longer.
Corbyn says he thinks Scotland has the right to a referendum, but he’d be much happier if things stayed the way they are now.
link to newstatesman.com
That’s not good enough in my book.
Why not? As long as he (unlike Cameron) recognises that the decision should be made by the Scottish electorate, what do his own views on independence matter?
Schrödinger’s cat at 4:33 pm.
I’m pretty sure the Blairites would try to oust him. Perhaps not openly, just keep stuffing things up and making him look incompetent to the point where they can stand up, hand on heart, and say….he really has to go.
Afternoon;
I was talking to someone earlier about Scotland/the SNP wanting to remain as a state within the EU.
After much (at least 5 mins)discussion, he told me to come here and ask, because apparently it is where all the ‘answers’ to Independence lie! So here I am.
I’m just genuinely confused about how the stated aim of Independence can be any such thing, when it is the EU/Belgium setting the majority of our legislation.
Can anyone shed any light on this scenario?
“I’m just genuinely confused about how the stated aim of Independence can be any such thing, when it is the EU/Belgium setting the majority of our legislation.”
1. The EU does NOT set “the majority of our legislation”.
link to fullfact.org
2. If you think Germany isn’t an independent country because it’s in the EU, fine. But be aware that nearly everyone on else will think you’re mental.
They will all be in the same position after the leadership election, Corbyn included. They will all concentrate on England, as they have to if they wish to have any chance of winning the next Westminster election. Scotland, as far as Labour is concerned, will remain a branch office.
All empires fall, the Blairites cleansed the party of the Millies to gain power. If fact in my opinion they got rid of all opposition, that’s political party politics for you. “two people would be one too many for my party” Hans Litten.
keaton says
“Corbyn …. As long as he (unlike Cameron) recognises that the decision should be made by the Scottish electorate, what do his own views on independence matter?”
Indeed. That is something I have felt strongly about Indy. The people of Scotland should decide.
With IndyRef1, the interference from outside Scotland was completely undemocratic. People who don’t live in Scotland, can’t vote in Scotland, don’t hold seats in Scotland, have no democratic mandate in Scotland … should have kept out of it. Heads down, mouths shut, no comment.
Of course Cameron et al thought they had some ‘right’ to interfere … Why, on what grounds?
In case you missed Deputy Dug in the Guardian today.
Let’s more the House of Lords to (wait for it) Glasgow.
Now there’s your trouble!
Moving away from the policies of Maggie Thatcher and towards those of Keir Hardie is causing a panic in the ranks of the Labour political elite – who would have believed that paragraph 30 years ago.
The premise of an english left-wing party in an agreement with the SNP independence drive appeals, but I don’t believe that labour can be trusted to follow through. Look at the present candidates, only Corbyn is in any way sympathetic to Scotland, and he could be pressured from different angles to edge back to the centre.
I feel a new, English, leftward party could state a firm intention to end austerity, and offer Scotland an independence settlement. That shouldn’t be a bitter pill for the English voter, as they’ve been bombarded with the “Scottish subsidy junky” mantra for so long most of them would be glad to see the back of us!
Corbyn says he thinks Scotland has the right to a referendum, but he’d be much happier if things stayed the way they are now.
link to newstatesman.com
That’s not good enough in my book.
As to the best of my knowledge he is neither Scottish or has no connections with Scotland, it would be extremely strange not to mention slightly stupid I’d he was to advance any other argument!
At the very least he seems content to listen to the will of the Scottish people.
Never trust liebour unionists, they are all the same! Take heed!
Mealer
I doubt if Mr. Joyce would recognize imperialism if it threw a Kani Basami at him (a banned judo throw).
Mt. Joyce, you are still a disgrace! Not all of us have short memories and forgiving natures.
Eric wrote: “I hate to be a bore about this, because I said it the other day, but I’d refuse to appoint new peers and set a date – summer 2016 – when a new upper-house election system could easily be in place and Labour would withdraw altogether from the House of Lords…”
“…The opposition Labour and SNP parties would kill off the House of Lords and there’d be nothing the Tory government could do about it.”
Aye, but what about the hundreds of Labour grubbers like Ffoulkes who are already peers in the House of Lords? Would they be prepared to withdraw from the House of Lords and give up their money for nothing sinecure, or will they cling on to their easy pickings by the skin of their teeth?
Labour will disappoint they always do. If I live to be 1000 yrs old there will still be a house of lords. I also don’t for a second believe railways, telecoms, buses, utilities etc will be nationalized again. Trident too will never go until it suits the establishment. There’s only one way for any of these things to be remotely possible. Can you guess what that might be?
I don’t know about anyone else here but among my circle we are not impressed with Mr Corbyn. His speeches are not exactly barnstormers and he is clearly a British nationalist. His speeches are peppered with “Britain this” and “Britain that”. Search for his speeches on you tube and you’ll see what I mean. No harm to the guy. As far as his politics is concerned he clearly has his heart in the right place but it’s a British heart and I doubt he’d have much time for any polices that would increase Scotland’s autonomy let alone lead to her independence.
Does anyone know how he voted on the recently proposed amendments to the Smith commission proposals when they were going through the house of commons? That would be interesting to know but I’m not sure how to check.
Yes! Yes! Yes!
Knock over the House of Lords.
Jum Muffy’ll be gutted.
All that service to the Union.
And no ermine.
Schrodinger’s Cat – John McTernan made a terrible mistake when he suggested a newly elected leader should be removed and, at the same time, referred to regular members as ‘Tumbleweed CLP’. A putch by the out-of-touch elite? Stupid. If Corbyn’s elected, his continued tenure will be up to his own political acumen vs Tories, I think. My instinct is that he’d find it hard to hold it all together though ’til the 2020 election, but you never know.
I think the cleanse-by-fire Blairites and the Corbyn supporters have more in common than they realise – i.e. they’re planning for 2 or 3 years. Plenty of the latter aren’t interested in getting elected and might well be up for something in the short term which will genuinely be a big achievement. #killthelords link to goo.gl
How would the Tory government be helpless to stop an elected upper chamber?
@ Cal 18:39
Here you go re Corbyn on Scottish votes in HoC.
link to theyworkforyou.com
Here’s an overview of the rest of his voting.
link to theyworkforyou.com
To be honest I have no idea how this will pan out. Corbyn being so far ahead has wrong footed everyone.
Jeremy shares so many platform points with the SNP that I certainly would have no issue backing him on the Lords, Trident, Tuition fees etc,
I guess the unknown quantity is how the Blairite wing will react. There is nothing for the SNP or Scotland in getting dragged into a Labour internecine war but if Jeremy wins and peace prevails then I guess we should suck it and see.
Right to left, Airhead, Blairhead, Fairhead and Stairhead.
Chic
and bedhead if you include Sewell
Let’s have open and transparent leadership elections they say
Let’s show our Labour values they say
Honest integrity they say
Looks like that Corbyn guy might win let’s rig the system so he can’t they say
Ah, transparency and integrity, bywords of the Labour party
If this one gets in, or that one gets in, they might give us
Stop there, why should Scotland wait to be given anything?
We take what’s ours by right, not by anothers leave
To wait for any Westminster Unionist party to do the right thing you might as well wait for the sky to turn Avocado
@ KOF
It’s interesting that They work for you regards Crobyn as having “generally voted in favour of more powers for the Scottish Parliament”.
In the votes listed from the 2010-15 parliament, he was absent ten times, and voted once in favour (control of fracking regulation).
Since May, he has been absent 7 times, voted for more powers 6 times and against them once (national insurance).
I would classify that as indifference at best.
As Andy B points out at 3:44, Corbyn is a Britnat unionist. The devolution he is willing to consider giving Scotland falls far short of the “devo to the max” that people generally understand the Vow to have promised. The evidence for this is in the interview that Andy B links to and his voting record.
I fear that those who think he will be any more sympathetic to Scotland’s cause than any of the other candidates are deceiving themselves and are in for a big disappointment.
@ eric joyce
“John McTernan made a terrible mistake”
Should read “John Mcternan made yet another terrible mistake”, or have you been napping 🙂
And what to call the alternative House? How about the House of Unrepresentative Swill? attr.Former Australian PM Paul Keating of Australia’s Upper House – the Senate.
Keaton 5.02. To Andy B
Corbyn’much happier if things stayed the same’
AndyB – ‘that’s not good enough in my book’
Keaton – ‘why not?’
I’ll tell you why not.
Jeremy Corbyn saying he’d be much happier with things staying the same means Scotland being governed by Westminster.
If that’s good enough for anyone ,they are no friend of Scotland. Fini.
I want …
– a society with fairer wealth distribution
– the needs of people outweighing those of business
– a written constitution clarifying my rights & obligations
– a PR wholly elected parliament
– sovereignty with the people
– no WMDs
– no illegal / unjustified wars
– to be respected across the globe
Q. What are the chances of achieving this through a left shifted Corbyn led Labour Party eventually achieving power and acting across the UK?
A. Virtually nil
Q. What are the chances of achieving this through Scotland becoming fully independent?
A. A distinct possibility
Weasel words yet again….Corbyn is English first. He may be left wing, but he knows our oil and resources are needed by England.
Fifty million English votes will always trump our aims. More Scottish cringe: let’s wait for Big Brother south of the border to do what we can do ourselves!
Let them get on with their rotten State..we need to get on with rebuilding and remodelling ours in our own image not hanging off the arse of England like some bloody dangleberry.
Eric Joyce might punch above his weight in some people’s eyes, but he’s just another SLAB chancer getting off the canvass in a vain attempt to claw his way back to respectability via this type of retreaded Unionist bullshit.
Next time Rev, get Eric’s namesake James to write an article..it might make more sense.
Thanks for your reply Eric
I agree, it would be for Corbyn to hold it together.
However, in the face of such intransigence shown to him by his fellow mp’s, I think he would fall. Mcternan is only saying what others are thinking
I was more interested in how this would be seen by the supporters of scottish labour?
Corbyn comes across as human. That is a step forward. I hope he is successful for the sake of everyone.
I don’t think he will have any interest in supporting independence any more than the SNP have in supporting UK Labour. Only time would tell if he is genuine. I have no doubts whatsoever that the SNP will be tactical in their support of a changed Labour Party and that is how it should be.
The left have sold out Scotland before, when they were the supposed representatives of Scotland’s interests. They are not the representatives of Scotland’s interests now and the SNP will not be looking to hand over the mantle to them.
Cui bono ?
Once the press are done with Corbyn, Labour will be dead.
But not until after next May perhaps.
Sturgeon Salmond and there’s labour carping from the edge of the pond.
Article mentioned earlier.
link to archive.is
Thanks @KDF 7.19pm. Very interesting. Seems not too bad. IF Mr Corbyn doesn’t bow to anti Scottish pressure from within his party when he’s leader then he may be of use to us. We should take all we can get. But that’s a BIG IF.
Re. the Smith Commission amendments he seems to have been absent most of the time. I wonder why – indifference?
Would he be allowed to do all the things he has spoken of anyway? As I said, I don’t believe he would ever be able to get rid of the HOL or Trident. The civil service are, as they have quite candidly shown post referendum, anti Scottish and since they seem to do the bidding of those with real power behind the scenes, we won’t get anything that would improve Scotland’s lot.
Nope, only independence has any hope of giving us real constructive change. I have lost all trust in the Westminster institution. My eyes have opened and I cannot close them again.
If Corbyn can poke a metaphorical stick in Cameron’s eye the well and good. If it suits Scotland’s future quest for a successful IndyRef#2 then even better.
However, the two are not mutually intertwined. Keep a fell lang spoon haundy, there are dark forces afoot and the whole Labour rabble would sell her granny fer her bus pass quick as blink.
Stumbled across this interesting little piece from the Independent
“Former SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars claimed it was “naïve” to think that the security forces were not involved in seeking to influence the outcome of September’s ballot which could see the break-up of the UK.
He told The Independent that he was personally aware of one secret agent having arrived in Glasgow.”
With the greatest of respect; Labour couldn’t, nor wouldn’t try to disolve the lords, let alone side with the SNP, ’tis a fallacy and fantasy, a last gasp of a long dead zombie party, trying to grasp at an I’ll conceived notion that we give a f**k about them anymore.
We don’t.
Eric,
I do appreciate, your time, effort and point of view but, I do not agree with it, Labour have sold their sole; we have no desire to follow suit.
Good to see such interesting stuff on this Site…particularly now that the Herald is such a farce. I take it that the farce is intentional and is designed to dumb down the Jocks.
Our Herald is Scottish and is the oldest running ‘paper in the World.
It is now owned by the English, who in turn are owned by the aptly named Gannett Inc of North Carolina.
The Herald’s sister ‘paper is the National, which claims to be Scottish….I don’t trust it 100%.
Lochside at 8.30
We are supposed to welcome all Scots with open arms, not aggressive insult. When I was young the most articulate,the most energetic and most persuasive political figure against the SNP and independence was Jim Sillars
The more more difficulty he eventually had justifying his anti independence stance to himself,the more energetic he got in his attack – until he realised that couldn’t do it anymore.
We are a movement for conversion
Interesting times indeed. I’ll be very interested to see how things unfold if corbyn is elected. His supporters might like to get some alternative media sites up and running in the shires. It’s high time they did.
O/T more on BBC bias..
link to newsnet.scot
I’ll tell you why not.
Jeremy Corbyn saying he’d be much happier with things staying the same means Scotland being governed by Westminster.
If that’s good enough for anyone ,they are no friend of Scotland. Fini.
He wants Scotland to choose its own constitutional future, even if it conflicts with his own views. Seems to me like the very definition of democracy.
Corbyn’s apparent respect for democracy gives hope he will see sense over Scotland’s desperate need for real powers if it is every to develop to its full potential.
But we can’t forget he’s a Unionist; so, any solution he might suggest, or feel happy to support, will be held fast within the confines of nil sovereignty.
Just read in Guardian Kezia Dugdale wanting Glasgow to be seat of a new elected second chamber because it is “city of a nation that has just reaffirmed its commitment to keeping our country together.” Glasgow voted YES for independence and all Glasgow MP’s are SNP! Is she aware of that fact? And she aims to be leader of the branch. Or is it now just twig?
The foursome in the photo could not look anymore disconnected if they tried. Anyone would think they hated one another and that they have hugely different aims and objectives.
The lack of commonality is just indicative of what liebour now stand for, wouldn’t trust any of em as far as I could throw them.
Just who do they think they are for gods sake. The photo looks like some low level bbc ad for a crass new programme, no thanks.
I am bound to say that I read this article, gaily assuming that it carried the imprimatur of the Rev. It was analytical, well argued and a good basis for discussion.
To me it identifies a real ground of attack against the Tories viz. the House of Lords.
David Cameron is about to create 50 new peers, among them Michelle Mone ( I can’t believe I am saying that) making the HoL comparable with the Chinese politburo and costing more than £100 million a year. What sensible person outside the political elite could possibly support that. The Tories have finally flipped in their arrogance, but with the ‘strategist’ Osborne in the wings they will not know what has hit them if the opposition can get its act together.
Let’s see whether Lord Nicol Stephen and Lord Jeremy Purvis vote themselves out of office.
Dave McEwan Hill @ ‘aggressive insult’?…I haven’t even started!..The author of this piece is a discredited MP, a public brawler with an alcohol problem. I’ll welcome anyone with open arms who has honest intent, this contributor fails that test in my opinion.
The rest of your comment about Jim Sillars is incoherent and gibberish.
Progressive movement needs progressive thought – engage with folk.
A bit non comital by Eric
Who would he like to see lead the Labour Party?
And why?
Why should I listen to the opinion of someone who thought a war of aggression that would ignite further conflict in the middle east, was a good idea? Can anyone remember Mr. Joyce’s position re. the existence of WMD?
Hi Cal.
You typed (My capitalisation),
“The civil service are, as they have quite candidly shown post referendum, anti Scottish and since they seem to do the bidding of those with REAL POWER BEHIND THE SCENES, we won’t get anything that would improve Scotland’s lot.”
link to youtube.com
It’s worth repeating. The British Labour Party are an enemy of the people of Scotland.
Maybe Corbyn only gets his news about Scotland through the MSM and his parties Scottish branch office rather than the truth which is bound to cloud his initial comments re the union. His election as leader will put Ian Murray as shadow SoS into an untenable situation of having to support the SNP far more than he could stomach.
Keaton
Big deal.
David Cameron signed the Edinburgh Agreement to that same effect.
It didn’t stop him and his fellow Labour BritNats doing everything in their power to stop Scotland’s independence.
Jeremy Corbyn as British Prime Minister(lol),would not seek to indulge his preferences to keep Scotland,when Scotland’s revenue streams and assets would be lost to his Exchequer.
Jeremy Corbyn does not have Scotland’s best interests at heart,and why would he.
He’s not Scottish and doesn’t/has never lived in Scotland.
Riddoch in the Hootsman:
—————————————————————–
Burnham says “more autonomy to the Scottish party to reflect the logic of the Scotland Bill,” will solve that problem and he will enact the necessary changes at the UK Labour conference this autumn – if elected.
link to archive.is
I hope Jeremy Corbyn wins. It wouldn’t stop me wanting independence or voting SNP though (on the latter part, only me feeling like the SNP has let me down can achieve that).
The reason I want him to win is that I want people who think like that (in essence, that we shouldn’t lie down for our corporate masters and let them steal everything) to gain power (or at least prominence to get their points heard) in as many places as possible.
That way, it will be a bit harder for countries to be isolated and bullied in the way Greece has been. A tall order? Yes, but it doesn’t stop me wanting it.
Keaton
Corbyn’s words ‘much prefer things to remain the same’ don’t even suggest indifference or neutrality.
His use of the word ‘much’ in this context sounds to me like Britspeak for one nation British nationalism.
Add the fact that he didn’t resign from Labour after his Government committed war crimes in Iraq and you may understand why I wouldn’t touch him or any Labourite with a barge pole.
I quite like the scenario painted here but not convinced. If elected leader Corbyn would be presiding over a Labour Party civil war. As Will Self said to McTernan on Ch4 News the other day, Labour is simply too broad a church. There will be a coup d’etat or a split – I can’t see any other plausible scenario. Pipedreams about co-operating with the SNP to abolish the Lords would be crushed not do much by Tories or even the right-wing press (though they’d each play their parts) but by the Mandelsonian control freak tendency who are first and foremost agents of the Crown and the deep British State.
Something quite bloody may be on the horizon. Deep breath, eyes open, brain clear – in other words, stay alert.
call me dave
I do so hope that Dippity wins the Brach Managership. Her “… we need to be a team, this is what we’re going to do and how we’re going to do it’.” will ensure the strong leadership that SLAB need to completely flush themselves down the pan 😀
@Briandoonthetoon 10.12pm
Ha! Thanks, it’s been a long time since I saw that. Many a true word is spoken in jest, as they say. Alas, it’s no laughing matter. If, before the referendum campaign, I had met someone who spoke the way I do of those who rule us from Westminster, I would have called them crank. Things have changed. The experience of the last few years has been cathartic, an eye opener.
Well Kezia Dugdale does not seem to see Corbyn as Scottish Labour saviour: Kezia Dugdale: Corbyn win could leave Labour ‘carping on sidelines’ – see Guardian article.
Corbyn:
“Here’s a guy that’s broken the whip 500 times. So how can the leader of the party enforce discipline with that record?”
Big deal.
David Cameron signed the Edinburgh Agreement to that same effect.
And now he says Scotland should be barred from changing its mind on the matter. Corbyn says the opposite.
Jeremy Corbyn does not have Scotland’s best interests at heart,and why would he.
He’s not Scottish and doesn’t/has never lived in Scotland.
I’m guessing you aren’t Iraqi and haven’t lived in Iraq, so why are you so concerned about war crimes there?
@handclapping
Aye well they’re in the u-bend now and the only way is the one you mentioned.
PS:
A burning issue for Scotland.
link to archive.is
Keaton
It’s just that I thought in a democracy a government was supposed to represent and reflect it’s people.
So the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent men women and children in my name, based on known lies,kind of got to me a wee bit.
I think we have exhausted this one now,you obviously have the British values,which I lack so we will have to agree to differ on this one Buster. 🙂
keaton
Do you seriously defend the mindset that would employ duplicity and mass propaganda to sell the ‘principle’ of ‘preemptive strike’, in order to advice the most serious of war crimes, i.e. aggressive war? Moralising aside, do you prefer your politicians to be honest or dishonest?
Lochside at 9.46
“The rest of your comment about Jim Sillars is incoherent and gibberish.”
So you don’t understand simple English? Or you just enjoy being insulting?
Eric Joyce’s piece is a well written and thoughtful piece. His previous very unfortunate behaviour on a number of occasions in no way changes that.
Have you any opinion on the actual piece that Joyce wrote that might be relevant in this post.
‘Let he who is without sin cast the first stone’ an aw that. Aye, okay…
We’re none of us saints. That’s a given.
Point is – and I’m with Cameron B here – Eric Joyce was one of the main drum-beaters for the invasion of Iraq. He was a regular guest on Lesley Riddoch’s afternoon RS show for months in advance of the invasion, along with George Foulkes and Jim Wylie (Terrorism ‘expert’) of Aberdeen University. Joyce was also one of the main advocates for invasion in the major CH4 ‘debate’, hosted by Jon Snow (which I cannot find any footage of via Youtube – anyone have it?).
If this piece had been submitted by ‘Anonymous’ then we’d all be dissecting it without reference to the author. As it is, authorship is a problem, and it devalues the content.
Eric Joyce has been very open about his ‘problems’, for example, with Cathy Newman of CH4. What he’s not been so open about, and what Newman avoided, was his role in helping create the perception that ‘war’ with Iraq was inevitable.
Why did Eric Joyce fulfil that role? Who instructed him?
Until/unless we get an honest answer to those questions – from the man himself – it’s impossible to take him seriously on anything else.
“The British Labour Party are an enemy of the people of Scotland.”
Who among us will ever forget Balls following suit from Osborne turning to camera and saying, “We won’t share the pound.”
If ever there was a statement from a politician confirming his party hated the democratic process, that was it.
People who believe Labour as currently constituted will resurrect their rights and fight the banksters are deluded.
I am clueless about the voting system BUT the problem with taking a huge lead is that it produces a huge reaction.
Cameron B Brodie
“Why should I listen to the opinion of someone who thought a war of aggression that would ignite further conflict in the middle east, was a good idea?”
real politic,
Cameron, that’s why,
A lesson even the Turks seem to have forgotten these days
“the enemy of my enemy is my friend”
no one remembers the person who came second!
Cynical Highlander says
“His election as leader will put Ian Murray as shadow SoS into an untenable situation of having to support the SNP far more than he could stomach.”
Do you really think THAT would put Murray in a position where he would be forced to resign out of conscience?
Eh and you a cynical highlander as well?
He has his principles and if you don’t like those yada yada yada.
The Tory bankers own Labour. Until that changes nothing else will. Westminster just do their biding, including starving children. The above average earners in the rest of the UK will not pay £20 a week so children do not starve. Westminster Tories would rather tax evade, not enforce the tax Laws and increase the debt by printing money.
Taxes raised in the UK 2010 £600Billion
Taxes raised in the UK 2014 £466Billion. £Billions have been lost in taxes while the UK debt goes up.
Taxes raised in Scotland £54Billion. Taxes raised (pro rata) in the rest of the UK £39Billion. Westminster is operating two different tax Laws in Scotland and the rest of the UK. Scotland has to take the rest of the UK debt, damaging the Scottish economy (forever) and starving people to death. Scotland has been treated unequally forever. Westminster greed secrecy and lies. Scotland outvoted 10 to 1. No democracy.
The first Labour leader election – one person, one vote. Will it make a difference, doubtful.
Where’s the Chilcot Report?
All those who voted NO are now in difficulties. The Oil companies, the retailers, businesses the Health Clubs, the NHS, Police/Fire, public services etc. The UK decline, trying to drag Scotland with it.
If you can’t run a Hospital you can’t run a country. Staffordshire. Starving people to death.
Eric Joyce is an alcoholic. Alcoholics make poor decisions. Westminster is full of them, including Cameron. Just look at them. Too many bottles of expensive red wine, on expenses. Out of touch. They have lost sense with reality. Westminster politicians should be drug/drink tested.
Dakk –
I quoted the Scotsman article, and provided the link, because Corbyn could well connect with that proportion of the electorate which has been turned off by the current scheme of things. Rev Stu noted recently that Labour’s total vote fell consistently through the Blairite period; Corbyn could reverse that.
The link was provided as a reference.
john king
Morning John. I hate to be argumentative, but I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “real politic” and winners. I was trying to point out that Mr. Joyce has either shown a catastrophic lack of judgment or integrity in the past. Either way, I do not consider him to be credible.
Largely as a result of the illegal occupation of Iraq, the new watch-word in that part of the world is “my enemy’s enemy is still my enemy’.
link to washingtonsblog.com
‘Carping at the sidelines’ Unelected Dugdale should know. Go and get a job.
@Cameron
we need to cultivate support from wherever we can find it rather than creating more enemies for ourselves, I feel we should give People like Eric (and Corbyn) the chance to prove themselves as at least ambivalent to the cause of independence, which would be a step in the right direction from the hysterical ranting of current unionist politicians encouraged by the rabid right wing media,
Nobody “promised us a rose garden” sometimes its necessary to do things we would rather not,
We spent too long in the referendum campaign showing time and again unwillingness to get into the mud and wrestle with them, we cant do this without at least compromise and cultivating friends where and when we can.
John king
One has standards. 😉
Scotland has far more committed left wingers than England, new analysis has revealed amid speculation that thousands of Scots were radicalised during the independence referendum.
————————————————————-
Seems that Scots seem to have rejected, or undermined, the status quo and contemporary ideas and expressions of freedom of choice.
Who knew?
link to archive.is
Trust a Unionist politician. Never. Why would anyone join a Unionist Party in Scotland, but for self interest. Out voted 10 to 1. That is not democracy ever.
The politician who claimed £Millions in expenses while children starved.
Here’s Wullie and Kezia, the oppositions finest, to remind us how dire they truly are. Another quiet news day in Scotlandshire.
Always looking back and exhuming the myths because they have no ideas to capture the voters imagination. 🙁
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
@Schrödinger’s cat
Re: ousting a successful Corbyn
I suspect the Blairite right of the party could. They could certainly make his life bloody miserable.
The rank and file and the average Labour voter may like the cut of Corbyn’s jib and of course are the far more numerous. The right wing factions however are certainly in the more powerful and influential positions within the party. I reckon you could certainly look forward to several years of internal warfare in the Labour ranks regardless.
England’s progressive left may have a long wait ahead of them before any dust settles and as to who may be left standing? Not a clue ma friend, but its a battle they need to fight. If the differences within the party are truly irreconcilable then there remains the split option. Again, whether they’d go for that? It would probably leave both hypothetical factions in the political wilderness for more than a decade that’s for sure, but it may provide their respective support with a more accurate representation.
You can see some interesting parallels in Labours internal struggles.
I like this blog as a rule although as a Unionist I rarely support what is written. It’s always interesting to see a different perspective.
The bit about the HoL is twaddle though. You don’t win a political argument by disengaging from the process. The Tories have a majority in the HoC so can push through anything they want if they can keep their own members on side.
Wishful thinking isn’t the same thing as analysis.
Pardon me, but I for one couldn’t care less about what the unionist parties are up to, both them, and their unelectable, as First, or Prime Minister candidates, North and South of the border.
They all opposed Scottish independence, so I don’t waste one waking moment thinking about, or trying to disect their various so-called policies, because none of them will give me what I want, a completely independent Scotland.
Pardon me if I don’t join in the general disection of the now nearly defunct Labour party, and their unelectable, at least to either First, or Prime Minister status, candidates.
They all opposed my raison d’etre, independence for Scotland, so why any of us waste any time on their so-called positions, or policies, if they actually have any, is beyond me.
I can’t wait until they are consigned to the dustbin of history.
Yes, let’s not spend time giving the new or pending leaders of the minor parties advice.
Their stance is beneath us.
They will soon be sharpening their attacks on us, once the new leaders understand what their donors wishes are.
I see some of us are still at it. There is indeed a huge amount Eric Joyce can be attacked on over the years (including relentless attack on the SNP).
However – and I repeat – he has contributed a thoughtful piece about the Labour Party and in particular the survival or otherwise of the House of Lords.
Comment on that could be interesting and constructive
Yes, let’s not spend time giving the new or pending leaders of the minor parties advice.
Their stance is beneath us.
They will soon be sharpening their attacks on us, once the new leaders understand what their donors wishes are, and how much they rely on the..
…MSM TO BE COMPLICIT IN THE SELLING OF THE LIES, DEFLECTING FROM THE TRUTH THAT IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHICH OF THE ESTABLISHMENT PARTIES ARE IN POWER..
Use the 56 to take down the Lords? Not a chance in hell but it is fun to dream. Independence for Scotland. Its all that matters now for the next 20 years.
If England don’t mind the Lords farce and they clearly don’t, what’s the point in getting in the middle of another countries domestic?
As much as I hate the red and blue Tories this IS a political discussion site open to all sides of Scottish politics so these different stories and analysis are all part of the debate. After all it would get boring if it was all about one issue,no?
@Richard says: 3 August, 2015 at 9:19 am:
” … Wishful thinking isn’t the same thing as analysis.”
Did you mean the wishful thinking of Jim Murphy that Labour would not only hold all their seats in the GE but take some extras?
Did you mean the wishful thinking of the LibDems who thought they would survive getting into bed with the Tories?
Was it perhaps the wishful thinking of the Tories who thought they would end up with more Scottish MPs than Pandas?
Wake up, Richard, the wind of change has swept right across Scotland and is now gently blowing in a southerly direction and the forecast is for gale force southerly winds in the not too distant future.
Fact is that it will not make any difference here in Scotland who the Red Tories choose to lead them in the three country Kingdom of England for the simple reason that Scottish independence is an idea whose time has come.
After they Labourites are swept out of their Glasgow heartlands the game Labour has played here in Scotland will be over. I will be very surprised if Labour, in their present form, continue to exist in the UK much longer. Why vote ersatz Tory when the next box on the ballot paper is the real deal? However, in Scotland, the real deal is all but dead.
@Richard,
Thanks for posting though. 🙂
O/T but the Herald has excelled itself.
We are “radicalised”
A strap line on a piece re effects of referendum.
I won’t give a link.
Barstewards!
Comment that is interesting or constructive is all very well and worthwhile…
But the subject of LABOUR LEADER IS AN OXYMORON…
It is constructive to debate whether the independence movement should waste it’s words on such a futile election to a dying, lying dinosaur of a party.
Sorry about the double post earlier. Computer glitch.
Merely analysing the shortcomings of the UKs’ democratic system is getting really boring…
..because the enemy of our argumentative approach is the MSM and tory position of TOTAL DUMBDOWN.
the ‘working class’ is tricked by the centrists into a more materialistic existence.
The ‘ middle class’ tricked by the right wingers, into a pull up the drawbridge existence.
True Scots are tricked by none of the above..
TODAY–Kezia Dugdale attacks Jeremy Corbyn.
Extract:”She then attacked Corbyn for not supporting the policies of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown” !!
’nuff said about ‘Scottish Labour’.
link to thenational.scot
Corbyn will probably appeal to those x Lab voters who, no matter how much evidence is against it, still believe in their souls that Lab will ‘return to its roots’.
This will never happen.
We have seen the state in action, Lab were probably infiltrated as soon as they were formed and the state has been working for decades to destroy their original ideal.
Liz,
Yes, Labour can never return to its roots.
It was helpless when those roots were being pulled up.
It then assisted with tarring over the places (sometimes quite literally) where those roots once we’re.
And now they are joining a global trend to artificially remove the rights of those roots to live at all
Missing Moodievision on the Labour leader competition?
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
When Corbyn wins FMQs will be very interesting for Deputy Dug
Q1 Looking lovely today Nicola wheres the shoes fae?
Q2 Love your dress where ya get it?
Q3 Can you tell me when the next indyref is planned? i need to lookout my yes dress
Q4 Same time next week Nicola? love you bye 🙂
Kezia Dugdale is the future of the Labour Party
Bet that cleared your minds
Ooft
Dugdale wants the new second chamber to be in Glasgow. Because Glasgow was Yes City and wants change but Scotland agreed to stay in the union. Does anything she says make any sense to anyone.
Glasgow wanted independence you moron!
On Twitter I noticed the Yesbar is giving 45% off food. I’ve put it on Hot UK Deals 20 minutes ago and it’s already sitting at -17 degrees. Please vote for it and make it hot. Thanks.
link to hotukdeals.com
@Jack Murphy
I suspect Ms Dugdale has just nailed the coffin lid shut on Labour in Scotland with both statements. An attack on Labour’s leftist credentials and pontificating on the possibility of moving the second chamber to Glasgow.
Just wow. 😮
What a gift that lady is. 😀
@ Cameron, it seems that its not only the UK and the US who play the enemy/enemy/friend game in the middle east. Can’t really say this surprised me but its useful to see it reported.
link to globalresearch.ca
Re Dippity Dug wanting a replacement for the HoL to be situated in Glasgow.
Well, the City Chambers is a nice ornate building, and it would make a good place for Labour Lords to loll around all day, after all, it seems likely to be a Labour Party-free zone after 2017, so, by sending the HoL there, some Labour troughers could still get in there.
Big Jock says:
3 August, 2015 at 11:31 am
Dugdale wants the new second chamber to be in Glasgow. Because Glasgow was Yes City and wants change but Scotland agreed to stay in the union. Does anything she says make any sense to anyone.
Glasgow wanted independence you moron!
If I gave a fuck about Kezia I would be concerned about her mental health she’s become so detached from reality she would argue black is white
In Kezias world reality is what she wants it to be it’s a sad symptom of her condition, the good news is she’s likely to be Labours next Scottish branch manager
Graeme
From today’s Daily Redcoat
“Corbyn ….. in Scotland, at least, it gives Labour the chance to come up with a coherent message to take on the SNP who have for years been able to take the left’s mantle and run with it. …. the lessons learned have to be applied quickly if they are to have any chance at the Holyrood election next May.”
The DR see Corbyn as light at the end of the tunnel. I see him as a potential threat to the SNP at Holyrood and therefore to any possibility of IndyRef2.
If Corbyn wins, SLab will fight Holyrood on an anti austerity, anti trident agenda which will have influence on some. Those gullible NO voters, will become gullible Labour voters. What they don’t realise is Labour will be in no position at WM to deliver any of their rhetoric for many years, if ever.
If there is no pro-Indy majority at Holyrood, there will be no Indyref2.
US/UK funded and supported Daesh in Syria. They were funded, armed and supported by UK/US. Iran and Israel are now being re-armed by the US with nuclear.
US/UK and France have created the migrant crisis, and are the only countries who will not resettle migrants. Other EU countries, who did not cause the crisis, have to re settle the migrants.
Robert Peffers says:
3 August, 2015 at 10:29 am
Fact is that it will not make any difference here in Scotland who the Red Tories choose to lead them in the three country Kingdom of England for the simple reason that Scottish independence is an idea whose time has come.
Indeed. The drift from Labour to SNP did not just happen overnight, it’s a process that started in earnest way back in 2006. The referendum certainly speeded the process but did not initiate it. Huge numbers who voted Labour in 2010 had actually started voting SNP at Holyrood, but decided to loan their old party their vote one last time, in a wasted effort to keep the tories out. They soon reverted back in 2011.
This is the crucial point – people are now voting SNP habitually, the core support is growing. For sure, large numbers voted SNP for the first time in May 2015, but the magnitude of the change that caused the SNP landslide is unlikely to be reversed by one election. Earthquakes just do not happen that often. The new SNP voters thought very carefully before crossing that box on May 7th They crossed the Rubicon. The election of a leftie, London-centric to lead Labour would attract some sympathy, but it is unlikely to affect voting behaviour in Scotland, apart from a possible minor, short-lived blip in the polls.
This must be the real concern for Labour in Scotland. We are now at the stage that it does not matter who they elect. Scotland has gone. This will become painfully apparent after they are significantly further reduced at Holyrood in 2016 and in councils across Scotland in 2017.
Ms Dugdale actually believes Glasgow would welcome the Lords,and vote for more Blairite policy?
Truly,I am absolutely stunned how little she knows about my home city,and indeed the rest of Scotland for that matter.
Someone above mentioned David Milliband.
Watch out for a rise from the ashes.
Totally O/T but seems Westminster pays the French gov 5 million euro a year to have their border policed for them at Calais and they don’t think it’s nearly enough. Interesting. Some of the btl comments feel it’s rather strange that their government is preventing people from leaving the country and suggesting they should be buying tickets for them instead – I imagine they are FN supporters. It’s a sorry mess and no mistake.
link to lemonde.fr
@Alan Mackintosh
Shows how horrendously complicated the region is. I knew the Drews were allies of the Israelis. I did think the Israelis tolerated Assad because traditionally he brought stability and suppressed Sunni fundamentalism. He is successful at neither now.
One thing for sure – the only part Scotland should be playing is offering humanitarian aid where required and accepting genuine refugees whose lives are threatened. Nothing more.
Perhaps after fifty to a hundred years as a respected peaceful independent nation, Scotland can offer services as an honest peace broker when asked.
I just love reading the comments on Wings. Scotland lives and that makes me so happy.
I really hope I am wrong but I suspect, in the end, that most Labour supporters (particularly MPs) will work to ensure that Corbyn doesn’t win the leadership contest.
Regardless of what happens in the first round, self preservation instincts will eventually kick in and Burnham or Cooper will end up as leader – rather than being consigned to ideological marginalisation and unelectability for the foreseeable future.
For your perusal from the SNP website today:
link to snp.org
link to theguardian.com
The prodigal son, King David son of Miliband may yet return to take his rightful place from Ed the Supplanter to deliver the new commandments, maybe even set in stone, to quell the Ire of the feuding hordes of Labourites
So shall it be written so shall it be done
Are we taking bets yet?
I keep hearing and reading in the media a great about Jeremy Corbyn in which is little more than hearsay.
While we know Jeremy Corbyn is against Tory austerity,
has he made any credible policy announcements yet.
If as has been suggested he wants to re-nationalise the railways has he said where the money is coming from and how would investing public money into what would have been a previously privatised industry be affected by EU competition rules?
Are we also to believe the Labour party hierarchy would let bygones be bygones and not do anything to undermine him should he win the leadership election?
@ galamcennalath – Excellent sorry shall be using this title in future – inspired !
“Daily Redcoat” 🙂
Dugdale’s last failed attempt at justifying the imposed union on Scotland, is to move the House of Lords to Glasgow.
Everything she says on the subject leads to independence being Scotland’s logical answer. But she just can’t let go of Great Britain and team GB.
I would quite like to see 1000 peers in Glasgow as a new HoL, if only to look at the utter disgust on their faces at being wrenched away from their beloved, pampered, elite London. I doubt many of them would come. Perhaps that would half the bill in daily allowances, counterbalanced by stupid accomodation/food/travel claims.
It would also give me the occasional chance to stand outside the City Chambers and shout shame! disgrace! within earshot. Who’s in?
The guardian showing its neoliberal teeth over the Jeremy Corbyn affarir.
link to archive.is
It’s Very reminiscent of the blanket assault on indyref by all the establishment press.
Jeremy has found himself in an unlikely position and its not because of anything to do with the Labour party,its to do with the English electorate they have been watching what we are up to and want a piece of it.
This is the Labour parties last chance imo they must do what the SNP did and listen to the people,if Jeremy can do this he might just save them but i would not wish the task on my worst enemy its not going to be easy.
As for Scotland well if he has any sense and does become leader the best thing he could do is cut loose the Scottish branch or his first defeat will be in 2016.
I do hope he can set England straight but i am not going to hold my breath as we have heard that one before.
@ Dave
Burnham or Cooper will end up as leader – rather than being consigned to ideological marginalisation and unelectability for the foreseeable future.
And just what part of this dont you see in the future with either of these tories in charge Dave,would that be working on the same premise that Ed the red and Ed the balls up were a dream team ticket to take Labour into government lol
You been sniffing our Jim`s gluebag perchance lol
Just hearing that there is to be a independent investigation into how the police handled child abuse allegations during Edward Heath’ reign as PM.
Apparently the allegations/reports were not pursued by the police.
_____
On the subject of Dippy Dug – Just keep talking hen, you’re doing a grand job for us and while you’re at it maybe you can get wee Gordon Matheson CBE to elaborate on one or two issues during his reign at GCC.
Maybe he can explain why he chose to promote religious hatred and bigotry via allowing more sectarian parades in the city than everywhere else in the rest of Scotland combined.
The public deserve and await answers.
I thought the article made some interesting points. Corbyns election as leader could see Labour return to a more left of centre position, (although the Blairites would need to be contained).
A return to left of centre could see a huge surge in support in England from those who have stopped voting (the NOTA party). This matters for 2 reasons;
1)It offers hope to millions in England and Wales who currently have no one to represent them.
2) With the support of the SNP and the smaller anti austerity parties this really COULD de-rail the neo liberal agenda. I want to see an Independent Scotland but at the moment we are still trapped in the union so we need to work with anyone who shares our vision of a fairer society and a democracy worthy of the name.
Corbyn, to his credit, has taken a principled position throughout his political life, which puts him head and shoulders above ALL the Blairites, and above Eric Joyce for that matter.
The small group of labour MPs who voted against the Welfare cuts, knowing that it would not be good for their own careers (in a Blairite party), are exactly the type of people that could win the non voting public back.
Imagine being able to defeat the Tories (Red and Blue). Its only a few by elections and demotions away. But ONLY if Corbyn wins and all the progressives MPs of all parties are willing to find common ground – i.e. Trident, Tax evasion, Banking regulation, The NHS
GallusEffie says:
“I would quite like to see 1000 peers in Glasgow as a new HoL, if only to look at the utter disgust on their faces at being wrenched away from their beloved, pampered, elite London.”
In this thread, I earlier gave a list of what I am looking for my ideal country…
link to wingsoverscotland.com
You have encouraged me to add another to my list …
– a parliament not situated in overheated overhyped London
GallusEffie says:
“I would quite like to see 1000 peers in Glasgow as a new HoL, if only to look at the utter disgust on their faces at being wrenched away from their beloved, pampered, elite London.”
In this thread, I earlier gave a list of what I am looking for my ideal country …
link to wingsoverscotland.com
You have encouraged me to add another to my list …
– a parliament not situated in overheated overhyped London
I hope this is wrong!
An astrologer who predicted Scotland would vote no in the referendum. Is now confident the UK will become a federal state in 2020.
I suspect this might stall our independence dreams for generations.
DerekM 1:26 pm
“And just what part of this dont you see in the future with either of these tories in charge Dave,would that be working on the same premise that Ed the red and Ed the balls up were a dream team ticket to take Labour into government lol. You been sniffing our Jim`s gluebag perchance lol”
… I think you may have missed my nuance. As someone who votes Conservative – I really hope Corbyn wins – because that will confine Labour to the wilderness for the time being. Come on Jezza!
I struggle to see where labour go!?
The haemorrhage of members with a heart and brain to the SNP will continue, but where does that leave the rest?
Corbyn, whom I hope wins so that the SNP and labour can fight tory policies, is viewed as divisive (I fail to see why). To me the tee stooges are the divisive element.
That said no matter whom wins in England, the knock on to Scotland will merely underline labour as divided, unelectable or tory lite. Whom ever wins in Scotland ironically has less impact on Scotland, tweedle dum or tweedle dee!
But don”t worry , John McTernan has told Jim’llfit it!
To be fair to Kezia she wants to keep the two most political toxic policies,trident,h.o.l in Scotland closer together in geographic terms,so to keep watch.
Do you seriously defend the mindset that would employ duplicity and mass propaganda to sell the ‘principle’ of ‘preemptive strike’, in order to advice the most serious of war crimes, i.e. aggressive war? Moralising aside, do you prefer your politicians to be honest or dishonest?
No and honest respectively.
Anything that destabilizes a unionist party should be welcomed.
Big Jock says:
“An astrologer who predicted Scotland would vote no in the referendum. Is now confident the UK will become a federal state in 2020. I suspect this might stall our independence dreams for generations.”
Yes. Let’s hope they simply banged their head and seeing stars 😉
Federal has soooo many problems.
The federal parliament would need to have a means of curbing England’s influence, because it is so big. Splitting into regions perhaps. But, that reduces Scotland to region among regions.
How can one state in a federal system have a completely different legal system and (largely untested and unchallenged) constitutional sovereignty status?
I have always thought a true federal system threatens Scotland’s identity more than any other.
My prediction as an astronomer (not astrologer) is the New Scottish Enlightenment will lead to independence.
Quick thought: Corbyn wins, Labour get trounced at UK GE as he’s seen as a mad leftie / Communist etc. etc. Labour unelectable and “in the wilderness” at UK level for even longer. Might cause some more Labour voters up here to realise they have no chance of their core policies being implemented as part of UK, therefore they may as well go for independence and perhaps get us to that 55% / 60% Yes vote many think we need at the start of a campaign to counter the MSM onslaught that will follow.
A Lords boycott would not make it “immediately die”.
1-Even if all Labour lords vanished overnight there would still be a majority of non-Tory Lords, so the idea that a Labour boycott would make the Lords illegitimate as a Conservative rubber-stamp body is flatly wrong from the outset.
2-One of the advantages of the House of Lords is that they are less cowed by the party whip and they have greater freedom to cross the party line – something which they can and do regardless of party affiliation. Just appointing more Tory lords does not mean that they will march in lockstep with government policy, just as many of Blair’s Lords defied Labour policy on factors such as extended terror detentions. Complaints about seat-stuffing fundamentally misunderstand how the Lords works.
3-Why would all Labour lords follow the boycott?
4-Given the number of sex scandals that have emboiled the Commons over the years it’s absurd and hypocritical to suggest that one should cause the abolition of the whole House of Lords.
5- The Lords have already defeated the Government several times on legislation and it’s barely a summer old. Boycotting the Lords with the idea that it will make things easier for the Tories seems to be Labour cutting off its nose to spite its face.
What will happen if Labour did boycott the Lords would be that the business of the Lords would carry on and… not much else, really. It is a pointless, self-defeating gimmicky stunt.
An excellent piece from Derek Bateman being a little more impassioned that usual (more Dug than Bateman!) …
“…don’t you want to scream at the fearties and the disparaging Britnats who voted against Scotland as their nation of choice? I bloody do”
…. It really is difficult to accept what NO voters have done to their country.
link to derekbateman.co.uk
Yorkshire blogger, Another Angry Voice, is doing a good job for those in the south, pointing out the baseless monstering of Corbyn, by MSM. So, one good aspect is that people are starting to realise what happens, when the status quo is threatened.
They are starting to see how the Establishment operate to preserve their cosy nests, and democracy means sod all.
Yeah, have to agree that Kez looks like losing her already tenuous grip on reality, with her proposed punishment of Glasgow ‘re the HoL. Mental utterance!
Big Jock says:
“An astrologer who predicted Scotland would vote no in the referendum. Is now confident the UK will become a federal state in 2020. I suspect this might stall our independence dreams for generations.”
Is that the same astrologer who predicted Scotland would be independent in 1993?
The purpose of Federalism is not to empower a state but to dilute it (Divide and conquer)
Scotland isn’t a Region of England much though the Unionists would like that
How about having a normal country like most normal countries where you co-operate with other normal countries
Leave the power hungry lot to argue about who’s more important at the “Top Table” who’s a player on the “World Stage” or who’s got the biggest bomb
Where do you want to invest your money if you’re a big company, I would have thought in a nice peaceful country with low crime, good education
A place where you can get a good fish supper a glass of good Whisky and a game of golf (If you’ve got the bats and balls)and a wee look at a nice hill or two
Somewhere where folk aren’t Effing starving which is going to happen soon if we don’t rid ourselves of these Unionist Bastirts
Donald at 2:25 pm
Said “Quick thought: Corbyn wins, Labour get trounced at UK GE as he’s seen as a mad leftie / Communist etc. etc. Labour unelectable and “in the wilderness” at UK level for even longer. Might cause some more Labour voters up here to realise they have no chance of their core policies being implemented as part of UK, therefore they may as well go for independence and perhaps get us to that 55% / 60% Yes vote ….”
I agree with that. I have said on here a number of times that a Conservative government at Westminster will aid the cause for Scottish Independence.
sensibledave says:
I have said on here a number of times that a Conservative government at Westminster will aid the cause for Scottish Independence.
Indeed – after all, the Scottish parliament only came about after 18 hard years of Thatcher and Major. Don’t worry folks, it won’t be another 18 years this time. 5-10 years max IMO. It’s just a real tragedy that so many people will have to suffer, so many more lives wasted, before the fat lady finally sings.
Big Jock , even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Really we all had a 50/50 chance of being correct over the referendum.
2020 is a long way away and long term weather forecasters who have been known to predict barbecue summers just a month prior to them NOT happening have shown how tricky it is to tell the future.
Personally , I believe we will better police our chances next time and it had better be sooner than 2020 or I may have popped my clogs without ever seeing a proud Scotland ,saltires fluttering in the gale and a happy , fairer nation singing her praises and welcoming the world .
Weil done Bob Costello
link to thescottishindependent.com
Thanks BrianDTT
A whole lot of wishful thinking here. Corbyn won’t get any more votes than he has; all the anti-Corbyn votes will go to Yvette Cooper, who will win.
And even if Corbyn won, it would not be the ‘the beginning of the end for the capitalist dictatorship at Westminster’, as R Esquierdo hopes.
Anyone who thinks that the Labour party has any interest whatever in ending the capitalist dictatorship should at least check the history of the pro-capitalist, pro-NATO, pro-EU anti-worker Labour Party.
Please read pere Miliband’s fine book Parliamentary Socialism, for the facts (pity his hopeless sons never grasped it).
Hobbit. 8.01
Fair enough.
One of the posters on here goes ballistic when people create direct links to unionist rags(think it’s Stoker), there is some archive linker that doesn’t give them clickbait.
I don’t link cos useless with computers.
The point I’ve been trying to make and no one has corrected me yet,is that in FPTP system it doesn’t matter if every single voter in safe Labour seats votes Labour.
The middle England key marginals decide the outcome,and I believe they are mostly soft Tory,so would never switch to red Labour.
They decide the outcome and would lock out red Labour.
Dave McEwan Hill…please don’t descend to the level of insulting my intelligence. My comments were clear, I don’t trust the man’s judgement nor do I accept his article has any validity. You don’t like them..then tough. I read a lot of your stuff and let it slide even if I find it facile.
I don’t insult people on here, so don’t challenge me to rise to your silly bait.
Dorothy -I have my own gut feeling that England will vote to leave the EU by quite a large percentage in 2016. Stoked by anti immigration garbage at Calais etc.
Scotland will vote to stay overwhelmingly. The war of words will begin. The SNP will withdraw from Westminster and call a snap referendum in autumn 2016 or early 2017. Scotland will vote yes with our own currency and independence will happen at the end of 2018. Just before RUK departs the EU.
Luigi 3:15 pm
Said: “Indeed – after all, the Scottish parliament only came about after 18 hard years of Thatcher and Major”
… did you miss the irony in your comment. Thatcher and Major – the governments that gave Scotland what it wanted when no one else would!
sensibledave says:
… did you miss the irony in your comment. Thatcher and Major – the governments that gave Scotland what it wanted when no one else would!
Well, they certainly contributed, but not through good intention!
@ Dave
Oh come on Dave like i didnt know you were a tory,it was you who mentioned Labour.
And i dont think you tories have quite grasped the big picture about Corbyn,you see he offers a credible alternative to the neo liberal agenda and already there is a growing grass roots movement happening,is he the right person only time will tell.
So i really dont get your stance on him since he is the biggest threat to everything conservative,the others are conservatives hell Burnham could move party and nobody would notice.
Oh and it is not Corbyn you should be afraid of its the people who are backing him if they do what we did up here and go grassroots westminster as we know it is finished.
The Scottish parliament came about through a democratic deficit,Blair was told if he did not fix it there was no way he was getting to sit in the big seat in Europe,some cobbled together parliaments later and Blair EU top dog.
So no it was not any sitting PM that did this out of the goodness of their heart,they had no choice hence them trying to fix the Scottish parliament so that the SNP would never get a majority,but just like Labour they messed that up as well.
dakk wrote:
“One of the posters on here goes ballistic when people create direct links to unionist rags(think it’s Stoker), there is some archive linker that doesn’t give them clickbait.”
Going ballistic? I think you’ve got the wrong person.
And just for the record, there are several people on here who rightfully remind folk that direct links to Unionist sites helps them to pull in advertising revenue. I’m only one of them.
😉
Never work with animals, children or your parents! 🙂
—————————————————————
In the interview, Mr Burnham’s parents also admitted their surprise when their son was promoted to chief secretary to the Treasury in the Brown administration because he had struggled with simple maths at school.
Mr Burnham was nicknamed “Seven Eights” because “he couldn’t remember that seven eights are 56”, Mrs Burnham disclosed.
————————————————————-
link to archive.is
The Scotsman seems to have filed Kezia,house of lords,glasgow
under no circumstances print it
On Bloomberg a about an hour ago ” Uk manufacturing lays stagnant!”
So much for this recovery, smoke and mirrors like everything else in this “union”. They would rather kiss the bankers ( did I spell that right?) asses than put money into jobs that actually mean more to the population.
DerekM 4:12 pm
You wrote: “And i dont think you tories have quite grasped the big picture about Corbyn,you see he offers a credible alternative to the neo liberal agenda and already there is a growing grass roots movement happening,is he the right person only time will tell.”
In much the same way that many here on Wings will talk about the English not understanding the Scottish and what the Scottish want – you display the same inability the other way round.
In England, 55% of the popular vote went to The Conservatives and UKIP. Add in the Lib Dems and those in the Labour Party (50%??) that don’t want a socialist government and you get a total of around 78% of the electorate. For reasons that none of us completely understand, England and Scotland are on different political trajectories. England will never (well not in my lifetime) elect a socialist government.
Any other analysis of the last GE result in England is either just plain wrong or wishful thinking.
Justice delivered? Aye right!
A LABOUR MP charged with attacking a woman at a polling station on the day of the independence referendum has walked free – after an apparent blunder by prosecutors.
—————————————————————-
The 67 year-old – MP for St Helens in Merseyside – was in Scotland at the time supporting the Better Together campaign.
Rimmer today stood trial at the city’s sheriff court accused of assault.
But the case collapsed midway through Miss McLeish giving evidence after Sheriff Brian Adair noticed the word Glasgow had not been listed on the charge.
This lead him to question whether there was the proper jurisdiction for the case to continue.
“She kicked me on the left shin and smirked after she did this”
said Patricia McLeish
Fiscal Adele McDonald asked for the trial to carry on, but Rimmer’s lawyer Liam Ewing claimed the charge was not permissible due to the error.
Sheriff Adair eventually decided to throw out the case against the MP, who first faced the allegation last October.
He told Rimmer the accusation was being dismissed due to lack of location in the charge.
—————————————————————
Galamacennalath:
That is a fine list, glad that my comment helped add to it.
What is to stop this violent MP being tried again in a different court?
sensibledave says:
3 August, 2015 at 4:38 pm
In England, 55% of the popular vote went to The Conservatives and UKIP. Add in the Lib Dems and those in the Labour Party (50%??) that don’t want a socialist government and you get a total of around 78% of the electorate. For reasons that none of us completely understand, England and Scotland are on different political trajectories. England will never (well not in my lifetime) elect a socialist government.
Oh come on, Dave, you are not getting away with that! – what about the 35% of the electorate that did not bother to vote, most of whom would probably support a genuine left wing party? I also think adding in the LibDems and 50% of Labour in support of your argument does not hold much water.
The truth is we just don’t know if rUK would vote for a socialist party led by a charismatic leader because it has not yet been tested.
Breaking news… Independence one step closer
Trolls swarm all over Wings over Scotland
Predictable or what
@galamcennalath says:
3 August, 2015 at 12:12 pm
..I see him as a potential threat to the SNP at Holyrood and therefore to any possibility of IndyRef2.
If Corbyn wins, SLab will fight Holyrood on an anti austerity, anti trident agenda which will have influence on some. Those gullible NO voters, will become gullible Labour voters..
If there is no pro-Indy majority at Holyrood, there will be no Indyref2.
————-
I think there is definitely a danger for the SNP here.
The timing of the future Holyrood election will have to be considered. I understand a choice has to be made of 2019 or 2021 to avoid the 2020 UK election.
The danger of losing a Holyrood majority has to be figured in to the strategy for a second referendum.
I would take the chance for a 51% victory, than not getting another opportunity at all.
If the Holyrood date is set for 2021, there could be an opportunity to call a snap referendum in 2020 if a Corbyn-led Labour is trounced at the next UK election, and Scotland faces 5 more years of Tory government.
Before that, if Corbyn wins the leadership, then independence support may dip amongst traditional Labour supporters if they can promise a future socialist UK government.
Big Jock
Predicting a single outcome of a vote with 2 possible outcomes doesn’t sound like too much of a feat, so I wouldn’t get too carried away with that one.
Re Rimmer. I can’t for the life of me think why you would think Shettleston wasn’t a part of Glasgow unless…. ohh wait I think I get it now. Find the most technical of technicalities to make the whole thing quietly go away a bit like Andy Coulston, the only man to lie in court and not commit perjury as a result.
ScottieDog says:
3 August, 2015 at 1:07 pm
The guardian showing its neoliberal teeth over the Jeremy Corbyn affair.
If the UK media are out in force warning the electorate that Corbyn is the wrong choice and that he could never be PM, it seems obvious that their history of lying toward their own end actually means that he is a the right choice and they fear he might get elected and the Filthy rich might need to give the UK workforce a share of the country’s great wealth.
You know when these guys are lying- they put it in print!
Stoker says:
3 August, 2015 at 1:27 pm
Just hearing that there is to be a independent investigation into how the police handled child abuse allegations during Edward Heath’ reign as PM.
Apparently the allegations/reports were not pursued by the police.
Stories of the same ilk where attributed to Thatcher’s Peter Morrison, Cyril Smith, Leon Britton, Lord Denning.
Nothing done about any of it, nor the blight right across Yorkshire, nor the Dunblane links, nor the 2000 names give to UK police by the Canadian Police Force?
No one ever examined the allegations
Isn’t it comforting to know that UK Justice is gearing up to cover up and make announcements after these guys have died?
In only 5 years time, and many £millions later they will say that they had suspicions about some of these politicians, but as they are dead they won’t do a damn thing about it.
It seems obvious to me that Judges, Senior Police Officers, and the most Senior Politicians took part in these Disgusting, Illegal, Immoral, life destroying activities with the backing of hundreds of others, if not thousands.
I want them all prosecuted now, and justice delivered to those who where bullied, abused, and abandoned over many decades.
The current government still won’t release some documents,
so they are accomplices to these crimes.
Lochside at 3.46
Some evidence of me “insulting your intelligence” please.
Any insult so far has come exclusively from you. I can’t be bothered reprinting them and I’m sure there are better things to be doing on this site.
Doesn’t matter who becomes Labour leader in England or Scotland; they will always put the wants of Westminster above the needs of Scotland.
Different cultural histories, perhaps? Sovereignty rests with the people in Scotland and the church has traditionally been Presbyterian. In England, sovereignty is held by the Crown in Parliament and the church is Anglican.
Might as well be Venus and Mars.
@ Luigi 5.37pm
I assume by “charismatic leader” you are referring to Mr Corbyn. I’m sorry but I’m afraid I’ve got to disagree with you there. I just don’t get this enthusiasm for him. He seems genuine enough and he talks a lot of sense but “charismatic”? No, not getting that at all. For me he has all the charisma of a wet sponge! I feel like the little boy in the Emperor’s New Clothes.
While I’m here I’d also like to stick my neck out a bit and say I don’t entirely agree with the Rev’s analysis (sorry Stu) wrt the None of The Above Voters.
There will always be a good number of people who will not vote even in the most favourable circumstances – perhaps around 20 or 25% (the indy ref was truly exceptional). These people can never be reached. I met quite a few while canvassing last year who despite my pleading just could not be convinced they should vote.
Perhaps another left wing government is possible in England but it certainly wouldn’t be a push over especially with the coming reduction in the number of mp’s and concomitant boundary changes favouring the Tories.
There. Glad I got that off my chest.
Cal: He seems genuine enough and he talks a lot of sense but “charismatic”? No,
He’s certainly not charismatic, then again he’s not a deadhead either, more the look of a salty seadog.
His honesty does it for him.
Grant
“I’m just genuinely confused about how the stated aim of Independence can be any such thing, when it is the EU/Belgium setting the majority of our legislation.
Can anyone shed any light on this scenario?”
Yes. The SNP think that in day to day relations with the EU, that (as in other things) the performance of the Westminster government is poor and damaging to Scottish agricultural and fishing industries which are quite distinct from English equivalents.
Most of those involved with food production would agree.
The SNP also think they could do better. They might well be right.
People tell pollsters that they vote SNP for ‘competence’ but that is relative competence, and the benchmark is Westminster and abysmally low.
‘…the UK remains one of the six most unequal countries in the industrialised world. Because the UK has so much inequality to start with, our welfare state has to work much harder…even before the economic crisis, the incomes of those in the middle were being squeezed. One popular explanation of this is the perception that “the poor had got too expensive”…The overall share of income going to the poorest fifth fell…It was the share of the top tenth that grew …nearly all of those gains from 1979 to 2007 went to just the top 1 per cent…if we are looking for a reason for pressure on those with middle incomes, it is not at the bottom end we should be looking ,rather, it is at the top. If anyone got too expensive, it has, in fact been the rich.’ (Hills, Good Times, Bad Times The Welfare Myth of Them and Us 2015).
And from those rather non-revolutionary individuals, aka Government appointed Children Commissioners (strange that all 4 countries in UKOK have one, as if we were autonomous) whose joint report couldn’t be clearer in warning of the devastating effects of prolonged and retrogressive welfare. There is now an unassailable evidence base of the repercussions of poverty on the well-being of children into adulthood. Perhaps the ruling elite should read it- the many dimensions of poverty will impact on many of their current and future electorate.
link to childrenscommissioner.gov.uk
Re. Mr Corbyn, or any other future Labour leader. I’ll judge them on how they deal with the ‘lumpenproletariat’.
Let’s jump in the WOS time machine to set the scene.
link to independent.co.uk
Or perhaps something more contemporary?
link to moneyweek.com
Or here’s another voice from England, that kind of supports what the Rev. has been saying about an untapped reservoir of voters.
link to thenorwichradical.com
@ Effijy (6.08pm).
I think most of us are with you on that, especially this part:-
“I want them all prosecuted now, and justice delivered to those who where bullied, abused, and abandoned over many decades.”
Trouble is, those particular waters run exceptionally deep and are inhabited by predators of every Unionist colour imaginable and they’re not about to start caging themselves any time soon.
Here’s a criticism by a Labour worker in the real world, writing about the gap between Labour Head Office and those in the constituencies…
link to labourlist.org
I think the English Labour party has far more to gain from establishing a sensible relationship with the SNP than with attempting to resuscitate the Scottish Labour Party. Miliband may have ran scared from dealing with the SNP but this only made him look a weakling for falling so easily for a Tory ruse and as long as EVEL is a ‘thing’ it’s hard to see how 56 Scottish Labour MPs voting on English issues is any more acceptable in England than 56 Scottish Nationalists.
In fact the SLP has been largely a liability for Labour in recent times for whatever reasons. Most likely the English saw the SLP exactly as we did: a self serving group of people with little integrity – and why would they want such a crowd at the heart of their government? By contrast the SNP are popular amongst the left in England and the ELP could benefit from some reflected glory whilst still retaining the benefits of being decoupled.
‘New Order Labour’ might even be more radicalised by calling itself the ‘English Labour Party’ and federalising the Labour Party. Achowledge reality that the Labour Party in England, Sotland and Wales have different struggles, whatever their rights or wrongs but importantly they’re different. Cmoan Corbyn and new thinking
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