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Spotting the differences

Posted on November 10, 2016 by

This week, in Snide Troll News, this happened:


We expect nothing but idiocy of Fraser. But Mr Torrance, who is a ubiquitous presence in the Scottish media, appears – by no means for the first time – not to have the facts at his fingertips. So let’s see if we can help him out.

The best data we have available for the demographics of voters in the indyref and in the US election are a study of the former by esteemed political scientist Prof. Ailsa Henderson of the University of Edinburgh last year, widely reported in the press, and a large exit poll for the latter conducted by Edison Research for the New York Times.

Both were scientifically-rigorous surveys with large sample sizes (almost 9,000 for the indyref one and close to 25,000 for the US one).

So let’s see if Murdo and David are right.


Trump: 53%
Yes: 53.2%

Good start!


Trump: 41.5%
Yes: 53.6%

Ooh, not so good. Trump was well beaten in the working class vote (which in the US study we’ve taken as anyone making less than $50,000 a year), whereas the working class in Scotland was a clear Yes.


Yes voters without a degree: 47.7%
Yes voters with a degree: 47.1%

Unfortunately for our sneering Tory and his media toady, university education made almost no difference whatsoever to how likely someone was to vote for independence. In contrast, it was crucial to whether you were likely to vote for Trump, with graduates against him and non-graduates for.


So that’s one out of three, which isn’t great. (And of course, those are in any event three entirely discrete stats, from which it’s not possible to draw any valid conclusions about individuals who might or might not be in all three categories. But heck, let’s not expect any sort of journalistic standards from David Torrance if it might get in the way of some sly winding up of the Nats.)

The only thing that we can reliably say Trump voters and Yes voters have in common, then, is that they were more likely to be male than female. (The really big determining factor in voting for Trump was actually skin colour.) But what else do we know?



Prof. Henderson’s study didn’t ask about party affiliations, so we have to use another survey, this one conducted by Lord Ashcroft immediately after the referendum. And what we find is that political conservatives voted in overwhelming numbers for both No (95%) and Donald Trump (81%).



Protestants voted 58% Trump and 59.1% No, almost identical figures. Catholics were more likely to vote Clinton and (a lot) more likely to vote Yes.



Old people voted Trump and No, young people voted Clinton and Yes.

So in other words, Trump voters were vastly more likely to be Murdo Fraser’s people – old, middle class, Protestant conservatives – than independence supporters, who had much more in common with those who voted for Hillary Clinton.

(David Torrance, we’re obliged to note, denies being a Tory.)



As ever, we’re glad to help Mr Torrance out with some facts. We hope those are enough “reasons” why only a fatuous cretin would attempt to correlate Yes voters with Trump voters. If not, he can always drop us a quick line and we’ll see if we can do anything to turn him into a journalist.

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  1. 10 11 16 19:56

    Spotting the differences | speymouth

  2. 04 01 17 21:01

    Graham Stark Were indyref and Brexit driven by the same factors - Real Media - The News You Don't See

261 to “Spotting the differences”

  1. And now they’re mutually masturbating each other for self comfort!

  2. Seasick Dave says:

    Why, oh, why can’t David so his homework like you?

    Its almost like he can’t be bothered, instead just relying on belly rumbles and Voice Recognition software to write his Tweets.

    BTW, I voted Yes and I have a degree.

  3. Johannah Buchan says:

    Jings. It’s nae aften ye see yer niece described as an “esteemed political scientist.” That seems quite surreal.

  4. jimnarlene says:

    Torrance can deny being a Tory, but surely he can’t claim to be a journalist.

  5. Macandroid says:

    Wee Davy – a word.

    If you can’t be bothered to do the research keep your trap shut if you don’t mind.

  6. handclapping says:

    I doubt Murdo understood his question. He was probably put up to it.

  7. Dan Huil says:


  8. jimnarlene says:

    By the way, “you sneering pricks” ©Wings, I have an honours degree and I voted yes.

  9. Thepnr says:

    Torrance and Fraser clearly associate being working class with being “poorly educated”. Two cheeks of the same arse.

    It’s pathetic trolling especially since the stats presented here in this article clearly show that yer Trump voter was much more likely to share the same demographic as yer typical Tory.

    Does Murdo share the same view as his leader that Trump is a “whoreson” as she tweeted last year? What does Torrance think of Trump?

    Mibbee he’ll write a biography of Trump and let us know. You’ll have to review any such biography as I won’t be reading it.

  10. jdman says:

    “A fatuous cretin”!

  11. Capella says:

    Working class voters supported Clinton – not Trump.

    Mrs Clinton had the majority of voters on lower incomes, with 52% of those on incomes below $50,000 (£40,000) a year supporting her compared with 41% voting for her opponent. Among those earning more than $50,000, it was 49% to Mr Trump compared with 47% to Mrs Clinton.

    Trump supporters mainly white middle class Protestant males (WASPS)

  12. Bean an Tighe says:

    Me = Yes-voting female graduate offspring of two yes-voting (one former SNP candidate) university lecturers (electronic engineering & microbiology). What I’d like to say to those Tory ‘gents’ is not printable.

  13. Liz g says:

    Even if it is… which it isn’t…true.
    What’s their point….like we didn’t know…but we do.
    Why don’t they come right out and say it.
    Half of Scotland want to know what it is you really think of us.
    Be precise!! Stop just hinting.
    I dare you.

  14. Bob Mack says:

    It must be a type of comforter to believe that you have more intelligence, insight or whatever to the bigoted low intellect working class guys.

    They fail to appreciate that there are many uneducated guys and girls out there who could buy and sell them but never got the chances in life. I hate that sort of exchange. It is highly arrogant and egotistical. Yet from what we have seen and heard from these two fools tells us that their superior knowledge exists nowhere but between their own ears.

  15. Thepnr says:

    @Johannah Buchan

    She’s in good company with an Aunt like you. How’d her failing Scottish education work out then? 🙂 🙂

  16. Since Ruth dumped/discarded Murdo for Carlaw as Deputy Leader,

    he seems to have gone Total Tonto and straight of the reservation with his red,white and blue warpaint on,in his hatred of all things Scottish,

    it might be OK for some CyberYoon like Torrance but as a well paid MSP he is an embarrassment to our Parliament.

  17. BrianW says:

    Lol. I feel like hollering a big ‘aataffty’ in Mr Torrance’s direction. He just can’t help himself can he? Think this if deliberate attention seeking, or more to provoke a reaction so he can then play the poor wee victim and cry into his Viz style cememoratvie ‘The Lady’s Not For Turning’ 100% Nylon handkerchief.

    As my mither wid say “Och, he jist opens his moo and let’s his belly rummil” (prob not accurate Doric spelling but yi get the gist)

  18. Iain More says:

    I take it the neep Murdo doesn’t like Trump then? I suggest that the prick Torrance go live in Bama for at least 6 months, I did many years ago and I gather it really hasn’t change much deep down, and I can assure him he would be met with a lot less tolerance.

    Oh and I have an Honours Degree.Oh and I was raised Protestant and I will be 57 next week and thus in a group that allegedly voted Naw but I voted Yes. So Torrance can go and fuck himself. Or eff Murdo or whatever gets his juices going.

    In Murdos and Torrance’s world I would be a working class oik/tink who didn’t know his place though.

    I would have voted Saunders if I had the vote there and he was allowed to actually stand.

    Oh and once again we have seen those Opinion Pollsters get it way wrong. So they can go and eff themselves as well. rant over.

  19. mike cassidy says:

    Can I apologise for being one of a handful of wingers who thought that Torrance had managed to connect a couple of his brain cells with something he wrote a week or so ago about indyref2.

    Obviously just a random fluctuation in the universe.

  20. Iain says:

    Hilariously, Fraser couldn’t get to the fourth word of his tweet without displaying the deficiencies of his own education.

    In the subjunctive mood – as indicated by his first word “If” – the correct form of the verb ‘to be’ is ‘were’. He should have tweeted “If it were …” A common solecism, but if I approached him to be my lawyer and he committed it, I wouldn’t have much confidence …

  21. Scott t says:

    Unlike mcternan u turn him into a jouralisr I will give £1000.00 . now thats a safe bet.

  22. John says:

    Whats the word in organised troll armies posting on London owned ‘national’ Scottish papers, all day, every day? Is there any mileage in persuing whether that is organised?

  23. mealer says:

    I just heard on the news that Mr Trump has phoned the English PM.She was tenth to get a call from him.

  24. Tombee says:

    Much as I admire your abilities Rev. I think, that even you, would be taking a risk. By attempting to turn Torrance into a journalist.

  25. Ken500 says:

    A senior lecturer at Fraser former University, with 6 years of degree+ level at Oxford?, fairly called Fraser out. Accused him of trying to start a class war and lacking benefit from his education. Not classy.

    Are the Polls correct or analysed properly? Not that that would have helped some so called 3rd rate reject ‘politicians’ or ‘journalists’.

    Carlaw trying to criticize Nicola re Trump. He should be criticising snotty Fraser.

  26. Patrick Roden says:

    @ rev,

    You must know that David doesn’t like people posting that picture of him between his mum and da…oops between John Major and Maggie Thatcher, so you will just go and upset him all over again.

    Do that, and he will not post on Twitter ever ever again.

    and when David says he won’t be doing something again, he really means it, cos his word is his bond…at least for six or seven days!

  27. heedtracker says:

    Oh and I have an Honours Degree.

    Who hasn’t. Call cybernat central when you get your advanced:D

  28. Chic McGregor says:

    I thought DT had stopped twitting?

  29. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh jeez I’m p’ing myself and I haven’t even read the article yet.

    Let me guess, demographcis that show the two twaddles to be ignorant twaddles? I’m guessing something like professionals, educational standards.

  30. Macnakamura says:

    mealer says:
    10 November, 2016 at 7:25 pm
    She was tenth to get a call from him.
    Being a male working class Yesser ….. Who were the 8 in front of her ?

  31. Thepnr says:

    I went to the first Wings night out in Glasgow early 2014, talked to loads of people of course but two stuck in my mind.

    One was a Professor of Archaeology and the other a Brain Surgeon, yes really a Brain Surgeon.

    Yes supporters and readers of Wings so obviously poorly educated.

  32. yesindyref2 says:


    The two of them probably also post below the line on the Express and BBC about Indy supporters getting their benefits and swallying buckie (cheap cider is, well, cheaper), not having the brain cells to know the stats, that unemployment in Scotland is 4.7% compared to 4.9% in the UK.

  33. ben madigan says:

    @mealer who says:
    “I just heard on the news that Mr Trump has phoned the English PM.She was tenth to get a call from him”.

    hope you and others will enjoy this post which touches on the same topic towards the end. is there a Scottish connection?

  34. mike cassidy says:

    At first, I was going to post this as OT.

    Then I thought, no.

    Let’s highlight this local bit of good news from the USA as an example of just how wrong Fraser/Torrance are.

  35. ewen says:

    The thing is that MF and DT can say these things cos they are unionists and what they say must be true cos it gets reported and all that kind of stuff like, so it must be true cos they said it…

  36. Tinto Chiel says:

    An excellent and concise analysis, Rev, which is real journalism, something The Boy David would not understand.

    Gruesome photographs, though, so please continue to deploy them: four people with fixed grins and thought bubbles containing the words, “Who’s the slightly desperate fanboy in the specs?”

  37. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    In case anyone’s interested, and in case anyone at the Daily Record wants to alter the page linked to in the Rev’s words above (“reported”) –

    “The best data we have available for the demographics of voters in the indyref… a study of the former by esteemed political scientist Prof. Ailsa Henderson of the University of Edinburgh last year, widely reported in the press”

    and then upload a new version to, the Internet Archive captured that page on 29th March 2015, 3 days after publication.
    That version can be found, as long as the Internet Archive exists, at:-

  38. Macart says:

    Yeah, clocked the irresponsible brainfarts of Messrs Fraser and Torrance earlier. Thoughtless, childish and still they’ll look for our votes or our attention.

    No just the sharpest knives in the drawer are they?

  39. shiregirl says:

    heedtracker says:
    10 November, 2016 at 7:33 pm
    Oh and I have an Honours Degree. Who hasn’t

    Me too. A post grad also. Ten a penny nowadays! Still paying it off…

    Torrance et al don’t half talk crap.

  40. galamcennalath says:

    Personalities of Trump and Clinton aside, I have always taking it for granted that I would be a Democrat if I were American. I take it as obvious that a typical SNP voting Indy supporting person will err to the left. Republicans are, well to be honest, like Conservatives.

    I am astonished that someone would equate Trump supporters to Yes supporters. Unless of course, that person didn’t have the foggiest notion about politics!

    There could be something else going on here. By popular worldwide agreement, Trump is a nasty piece of work. So, said the not-too-bright Yoon, “let’s equate the US nasty side to the people we don’t like in Scotland!”

    Ach well, someone has to swim at the shallow end of the gene pool.

  41. Valerie says:

    There’s nothing quite as good as paying for a public servant to troll the people he is supposed to represent and serve.

    We have to expect it from Tiny Tears Torrance.

    Is this as good as it gets, Scotland? To be targeted by these sniveling excuses for men? Their penises are so small, they have to make these sneering comments on the Scottish public, to feel like proper men?

    They make me sick.

  42. heedtracker says:

    Another good example of the famous Scots tory twit just there on C4 news, Nial Ferguson, explaining Trump’s not a fascist, wont enable other fascists, and is a Keynesian President, because this tory twit thinks was all about tax cuts and infrastructure spends.

    Ferguson was meant to debate with Yanis Varoufakis but much like our two tory twerps up there, Ferguson just tried to wind up his Greek opponent, who swatted aside him like the tory twerp he is.

    Niall Ferguson is a ferocious toryboy NO for Scotland running Scotland, at Stanford uni, a long way from Scotland thank fcuk.

  43. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    I predict a twitter flounce. 🙂

    Another example of the Yoons being unable or more than likely unable to accept the truth.

    That the demographic they inhabit is the one ‘poorly educated’ in the political and social dynamic of modern Scotland.

    Either that or:

    1. They are in denial

    2. They are lying

  44. galamcennalath says:

    mealer says:
    at 7:25 pm

    I just heard on the news that Mr Trump has phoned the English PM.She was tenth to get a call from him.

    Egypt, Ireland, Mexico, Israel, Turkey, India, Japan, Australia and South Korea all came before the UK!

    May is probably OK that she was still ahead of France and Germany!

  45. Stoker says:

    Torrance & Fraser? What a pair of fandans.

    I don’t even have a standard GCSE to my name never mind a degree, but i do have the highest level of education from the school of hard knocks. Does that count?

    So proud to be in a league of my own.

    BTW, folks, do you know that Murdo Fraser is an anagram of:
    Mr F Dour Arse.

  46. Artyhetty says:

    Little twirps basically, enemies of Scotland by what they say about the people of Scotland, it is a disgrace.

    They would have Scotland charge tuition fees to obstruct our young from poorer families gaining a good education, and they would take the support away from families for free nursery places, and for early years support etc.

    My secondary school education (aka, crowd control) in north of england was appallingly basic, but I was glad to get to Uni against the odds and get a grant. Then a post grad in bonny Scotland, with a grant too.

    Oh, and I voted yes and would do so again.

  47. defo says:

    Chic McGregor 7:34 pm
    “I thought DT had stopped twitting?”

    Players gotta twit. It’s like scent marking.
    Smells the same. 😉

  48. At FMQ, Ruth, Murdo, and an angry Wullie prattled on about a Chinese MOU, Anas mumbled about a ‘constituent’ of his (he doesn’t have ‘constituents’, he is a List hanger on, nobody voted for him) in the Royal since April because a joined up Home Care Package had not been arranged between Greater Glasgow and Clyde Health Board and Glasgow City Council; Sarwar rather unenthusiastically queried what was the FM going to do about it, while the Tory benches found everything so fucking hilarious in a week when they cut benefits and allowances to our poorest and most frail citizens by between £50 and £120 per week, and Kezia expressed concern on equal pay day, when women work for nothing between now and the end of the year, and what was the FM doing about it?
    What the fuck are we paying these folk for?
    Does Anas not have Frank McAveety’s ,or the Health Board CE’s phone numbers.
    What is he doing for his £1200 per week?
    Kezia Dugdale, why no challenge to the Tory Austerity Cuts?
    Where were the Greens today?
    Wullie Rennie, be warned. Check out Cole-Hamilton’s and The Gentleman Farmer Tavish’s demeanours just behind you as you lost the plot over nothing. Your days are numbered, Polyester Man.
    I note that Professor WATP Two Jobs Adam Tomkins was present. NO lectures at Glasgow Uni today?
    The Unionist benches are stuffed with Third Rate Unionist bench fillers, who obviously can’t be bothered.
    Fraser and Torrance are just risible.

  49. defo says:

    Valerie says: “They make me sick.”

    Not by gagging though, with the tackle you describe !

    Glad a woman said what needed saying.

  50. galamcennalath says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    the demographic they inhabit is the one ‘poorly educated’ in the political and social dynamic of modern Scotland.

    Either that or:
    1. They are in denial
    2. They are lying

    Yes. When you don’t think like a Yoon it’s always kind of hard to know what they are thinking.

    Ignorance, denial, or deceit – it’s never quite clear which applies for any particular utterance.

    To be safe, it’s best to assume deceit while feinting a more innocent explanation.

  51. HandandShrimp says:

    I’m surprised that Ruth lets Murdo tweet. I think it may be so there is such a body of evidence to his daftness that he could never mount a credible pitch for her job.

    It does also give us a laugh which is also a plus 🙂

  52. Auld Rock says:

    Turning Torrance into a journalist Rev – nae chance if you had a thousand years you’d still not have enough time. He’s a lost cause, just a pity he doesn’t get lost.

  53. Thepnr says:

    Just wondering aloud how many Nobel Prize winners might support Independence for Scotland?

    More than one would be my guess.

    Why is it that people in Scotland have 5 Universities in the worlds top 200 to go too. Can’t be because Scots are thick. Can it?

    Why is it that privately educated Tory boys like Torrance and Fraser have a better education than is available to most in Scotland. Can’t be because their families have money. Can it?

    Many of us may have lived in the slums, they two live in the sewers.

  54. Mochachoca says:

    Despite not having any evidence, or having carried out any research whatsoever, I strongly suspect the demographics for ‘Leave’ and ‘Trump’ would show similar degrees of correlation.

  55. K1 says:

    For guys that consider themselves ‘educated’ they sure are dumb as out. Everyone knows the Republican party is synonymous with the Conservative party. The white middle classes voted for Trump, cause they are traditionally Republican voters.

    The middle classes voted No in the Indyref1. They too…(happen to be mostly white here), cause they are traditionally Conservative voters.

    There isn’t even a scintilla of common sense never mind the inaccuracy, at play in that tweet from Fraser. As for Torrance can he actually get his head any further up Fraser’s arse?

    Just embarrassing themselves.

  56. pro-loco says:

    May I also draw your attention to this article:

    which attempts to draw the same “ignorant” trump voter/”ignorant” Yes voter analogy but coming from the other political direction. The statistics you present convincingly trash the analogy.However, what’s been identified is an attempt to smear Yes voters by the Trump voter comparison.

    The Rev’s work is an excellent debunking tool for this analogy wherever spotted.

  57. heedtracker says:

    shiregirl says:
    10 November, 2016 at 7:52 pm
    heedtracker says:
    10 November, 2016 at 7:33 pm
    Oh and I have an Honours Degree. Who hasn’t

    Me too. A post grad also. Ten a penny nowadays! Still paying it off…

    We got them for free but loans for grants. That was socialist workers Blair and Brown, who got everything for free. Y’see endless illegal wars in hot places what cant strike back is the red tory UKOK way to piss away our hard earned taxation. Trident is very good value for money also as it means teamnGBists toryboys can punch thing above their weight and you only pay off your student loan when you more than you paper boy.

    Actually its Cherry Blair that sticks out in the world of red tory bullshit artistry as Cherry has made stacks of cash from her free law degree, free maintenance grant included. But then El Tone’s crew scrapped all and every kind of financial assistance aimed primarily at getting working class women like Cherry in particular, in to further and higher education and the professions.

    If there’s a circle in hell for the greedy, lying, hypocrisy dripping, I’m alright jack red tories…

  58. Croompenstein says:

    Murdo ‘frack me’ Fraser, we could actually frack those two twats as there is enough gas and shit in those two to keep the lights on for a long time..

  59. Haggishunter says:

    Murdo is a beaut, and his politics are far right supremist just like Trump’s.

  60. K1 says:

    On the subject of Trump. Ah’ve the distinct impression he’s now completely out of his depth (yes ah know he always was). I watched a wee vid earlier of him with Obama, all the traditional fanfare hasn’t been gone through, he went into the Whitehouse ‘quietly’…

    In the press conference afterward he says what was going to be a 10 or 15 minute meeting went on for an hour and a half, he had never met Obama before and I could see that he’s been humbled, he seems excessively grateful and wants Obama’s ‘counsel’, quite emphatic on that last point.

    It is like watching a child being given a bicycle that they tried every trick in the book to get from their parents in the expectation that they were not getting it, having then been surprised by achieving the prized possession, they stand back in shock with no clue as they still don’t know how to ‘go a bike yet’.

  61. Effijy says:

    Fraser and Torrance have no intention of researching anything

    They just produce lie headlines for the UK media to suppress the Scots and keep Westminster’s hand in our pockets.

    They get bloody well paid, although they have severe lack of talent, and they get to sneer down at the working classes, who have to do real work for a living.

    Didn’t the French working classes invent something unique
    for the so called Elitists who sneered down at them?

    Could someone who has already lost the head, lose their head? lol

    “Je suis working class”

  62. Liz g says:

    Jack Collation @ 8.07
    Totally agree,sometimes on Wings we get to debating subjects that are clearly only able to be sorted out after Indy.
    While that in itself is a good thing because we are exchanging ideas of what we see as Scotland’s future.
    Sometimes what really worries my is the amount of idiot time servers in Holyrood.
    Like you say what are we paying them for.
    Why are they always so adversarial just for the sake of it.
    They seem to behave as if all they can do is report to the First Minister complaints and demands.
    No I have seen a problem in my constituency and here’s how I think it could be solved.
    The calibre of the opposing MSPs is disgraceful and that’s probably going to be one of the first things to need sorted.
    Not one of them will even discuss what they think should happen in the event of a yes vote?
    It’s not like it’s a dim or distant prospect.
    Do we not deserve to know how they will view things?
    Happy to talk about America’s future for the next four years,but not a word about ours.
    Plenty of school yard bitchiness though!

  63. Stu Mac says:

    @Macart says:
    10 November, 2016 at 7:51 pm

    Some people get an education and then from it get a good job after which they put their brain in a tin in the attic and never bring it out again, preferring to work with a bag of old prejudices instead.

  64. K1 says:

    Given the hate and fear that he has stoked up it will be interesting to see how ‘he’ handles the mess he has created with his base supporters. They are already attacking anyone of colour/race on social media, including journalists and academics etc.

    He has certainly had his gas put in a peep overnight, the bellicosity and arrogance is in the shadows. How long will it last?

    Obama is ‘good man, good man’: President Elect Trump. The day after he spent two years ripping him to pieces and fuelling a regressive step backwards to pre civil rights movement achievements. He needs to get out on a podium and apologise profusely to the American people and reassure the minority members of those United States that there lives are not in danger. Will he do it?


  65. Chic McGregor says:

    The only commonality between some of the Trump support and some of the support for Brexit, for Corbyn and to a much lesser degree, indyref1 lies in that portion of the support who are so marginalised and shat upon that they are willing to vote for almost anything which can change/hit back at, the established system.

    There the similarity largely ends.

    For Trump and Farage/Brexit, the commonality is perhaps closer in that both main protagonists who purport to being the mavericks who will smash the establishment, namely Trump and Farage, are of similarish redneck-esque persuasion, although I hope that is being a bit unfair to Trump.

    While significant numbers of blue-collar (rust belt) voters may have voted for both in desperation, having no viable establishment punishing alternative, I fear they do so on false expectations. Actually, I think many voted actually knowing this but are at the point where the mere possibility of striking at the establishment is enough.

    We are on the verge of a political paradigm shift. The neoliberalism experiment is collapsing having demonstrably failed the vast majority of people. That is the enduring backdrop.

    So, of course, there would be some of that going on in the indy case as well. However, the case for indy rests on many other long established things which I will not elaborate on since I am sure most here will be fully aware of them.

  66. Brian Watson says:

    Is their even a homeopathic tincture of evidence that this brace of toadies have any influence on public opinion ?

  67. Tam Jardine says:

    For those interested in the art of sneering, snide journalists, Merryn-Somerset Webb (advisory board member of Scotland in Traction) has written a joyfully contemptuous wee piece on her blog gloating over the bad blood between the SNP hierarchy and Donald Trump.

    A small blog post in every sense- something I would expect of labour hame or the herald but is this really what someone purporting to be a top economics expert can be happy with?

    I honestly cannot see how the situation with Trump investing in Scotland could have ended up in any other way- the Scottish Government would have been lambasted had it refused to allow Trump to invest in his golf courses in Scotland and Trump being the man he is was always going to end up making outrageous demands and expecting everyone to do his bidding.

    Nicola could of course have said nothing when asked to comment on the election- however the electorate respect her for speaking her mind. She could hardly have given a man like Trump her support since he is diametrically opposed to almost everything Nicola Sturgeon stands for and had she said nothing any perceived slight he has would hardly be diminished!

    Let us not forget- she has not insulted him publicly (like Ruth Davidson) or demanded he be barred from entry to the country (like Patrick Harvie) and she has not travelled half way round the world to man a phone bank and actively campaign against Trump like Dugdale.

    One last comment before I get back to work: The opposition today at FMQ’s were absolutely disgraceful- repeatedly claiming Nicola was blaming everyone but herself over the “China Deal” (when she clearly accepted there were lessons to learn for the Scottish Government) whilst at no point accepting a shred of responsibility themselves.

    It serves as a reminder how fortunate we are to have a First Minister who displays humility and speaks honestly. Her relationship with Donald Trump (for there must and will be one in some form or another) will require that humility and honesty.

    Once the howls of anguish have ceased we need to start again with Trump and indeed with the Chinese. It would be nice to do so with a parliament of grown-ups who can get on with the job and leave student politics behind.

  68. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    You make an interesting point @ Chic McGregor says at 8:58 pm

    “While significant numbers of blue-collar (rust belt) voters may have voted for both in desperation, having no viable establishment punishing alternative, I fear they do so on false expectations. Actually, I think many voted actually knowing this but are at the point where the mere possibility of striking at the establishment is enough.”

    I don’t think it is about “striking at the establishment” Chic.

    A lot of these people (not just in the ‘rust belt’ but across the ‘states) lost everything including the future they’d planned due to the financial crash and watched as the Govt. bailed out the bankers as per UK & Europe.

    I believe a lot of them thought ‘F*ck it, what else do I have to lose/how worse can it be for me and mine than it is’.

    They put their trust in Trump (whether rightly or wrongly only time will tell).

    The “collapse of the neo-liberalism experiment” can go either way.

    Desperate people make desperate choices.

  69. Fred says:

    Some good posts from youse under-achievers here! Torrance always looks on camera as if he’s just shat himself.

  70. Liz g says:

    Tam Jardine @ 9.17
    Just read the article you posted.
    Did ye notice no mention of Ruthie’s tweets …funny that..
    Money Weekly?? Scotland does attract negativity from the strangest places!
    Ye do wonder how deep it really goes.

  71. Macart says:

    @Stu Mac 8.51

    Nailed it.

  72. Cuilean says:

    Voted ‘Yes’ with two degrees [M.A. (Hons) & LLB].

  73. Thepnr says:

    @Chic McGregor

    “We are on the verge of a political paradigm shift. The neoliberalism experiment is collapsing having demonstrably failed the vast majority of people.”

    I’d love to know if Torrance and Fraser believe in the so called “neo-liberalism experiment” Of course it has been a failure, you can’t export jobs and production without some kind of backlash.

    The so called invisible earnings were what spurred Thatcher to close down production in coal, shipbuilding and steel. The real things that did put the Great in Great Britain. Our Industrial might.

    We closed it all down, privatised everything in sight making the bankers rich in the process. Even when the banks fail, we will bail them out as we now know to OUR cost.

    Banker bailouts have resulted in a reduction in living standards of on average £2000/year for every worker in this country since 2008. That doesn’t matter when £2000/year is 0.1% of your wage but it certainly matters when it is 10% of your wage.

    the reason the voters in England can still vote for this shit is simply because of the newspaper barons and state propaganda via the BBC about immigrants or welfare claimants.

    I was accused yesterday on a thread here of being “brainwashed” LOL. Some people need to look in a mirror.

  74. cearc says:


    Well at least he went to the White House rather than going into hiding or off to play cricket for a few days. Like the UK’s ‘winners’.

  75. Rory says:

    “Lower incomes” = less than or equal to $50,000, £40,000 pa.

    fuck my life.

  76. Meg merrilees says:

    Re Fracking:

    Perhaps Murdo Fraser should read these articles.The second link is fascinating – you can go around the world and see how many earthquakes they’ve had today/this week/this year.

    E.G Did you know that Oklahoma has had 2,156, that’s two THOUSAND, 156 earthquakes in the last year, almost all of which are directly attributable to ‘the underground injection of waste water from oil and gas production’ (read first link)

    I agree with K1, I think Trump is trying to cover up the frightened rabbit in the headlamps look and has , like Boris Johnson, just realised that this isn’t a game.

    Ruth a FMQ’s clearly thinks it is all a game and is playing to the cameras. Apparently ‘She’ has deleted her twitter remarks about Trump – mock surprise and stage ‘head-shaking’ to camera, but accused of ‘double-standards on stilts’ by FM.
    Kezia today actually expressed strong views again Trump and agreed with Nicola – but I don’t suppose she’ll be targeted and lambasted for being so amateur as to express an opinion contra the POTUS.
    Willie Rennie was risible – couldn’t understand that he was the person who demanded the Chinese deal be cancelled and now tries to belittle Nicola because she didn’t get on the phone to try and save the cancelled non-‘deal’.
    What a sorry bunch of shambolic amateurs.

    I find it odd that the UK government has announced a new ‘Golden Age’ in trade deals with China – HS2, Hinckley Point, Heathrow new runway at a time when Scotland is being trashed for losing a non-deal. Couldn’t be a term of the UK negotiations that China has to drop any deals with Scotland, could it?

    PS: The boring bit!
    My sister (late) was a Ph D,Glasgow and a Chemistry lecturer, voted YES and would have been Remain, another 5 nieces/nephews all with degrees, all YES/Remain and I have a degree plus Post grad, YES/Remain and all of us would def. not vote TRUMP. All of us have had a ‘Comprehensive’ Education. No grammar schools/private ed. in my family, so there!

  77. HandandShrimp says:

    The only thing wrong with the Chinese MOU was that Nicola signed it. The insults regarding the parent company of CR3 came thick and fast from Ruth and Rennie and Co…knowing full well that the Chinese dislike intensely loss of face. The deal if scuppered, these things can be revived, was scuppered by Ruth and Rennie and their supine press in Torquil and friends. I think it was deliberate. The Unionists were horrified that the Scottish Government was conducting foreign trade deals and wanted to spike it. It was as shallow and petty as that.

    The gall of these creeps to now try and pretend that the Chinese annoyance was anything to do with the Scottish Government and not their own politicking is outrageous. I see someone has noted that Ruth’s comments on line regarding the Chinese MOU have been pruned to re-write the past. So unbelievably and pathetically dishonest!

    The truth of the matter is that the opposition in Scotland are the opposition because they are not fit to govern.

  78. Big Jock says:

    The people who voted for Trump were the same type of people who voted Brexit. Bigoted insular and Ill informed. Can he please explain why the unionists rioted in George Square if they were on the educated side.

    Murdo is a well known Rangers fan. The dregs of society follow them. They are Scotland’s shame. Murdo is a British bigot who sees Scots as a threat to himself.

    Apparently professor Devine is an uneducated bigot, Stuart Cosgrove, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Tommy Sheridan, Patrick Harvie,Irvine Welsh, Pat Kane,Lesley Riddoch me. The common denominator is all have degrees!

    The angry mob that is Brexit represent the uneducated loutish Tories. Murdo is a man who says he voted to stay in the Eu but thinks Nicola should just let Brexit happen.

    Torrance is lashing out at the Yes side because he felt their wrath when he lied on Twitter and insulted everyone.

    He is a straw man. The yes side were the better informed side by miles. The no side were Brits, Daily Mail readers, brainwashed frightened Scots, pensioners and bigots who hate the SNP. Murdo’s nation is England not Scotland he wants us to hurt. He enjoys being whipped. Torrance says he is pro Eu but still can’t back Scotland. He is incapable of dropping his Brit baggage. He is incapable of rational thought.

  79. Tam Jardine says:

    Liz g

    Aye- it is strange. Seems like no bother posting stuff on there so I will see if Merryn can answer why a pro-business journal like Money-Week is slagging the only major political party in the UK to be attempting to block the UK’s exit from the ESM.

    Cybernats eh- whit are we like!

  80. cearc says:

    That’ll be the Chinese deal that isn’t off at all?

    ‘A Chinese company denied its multibillion-pound investment deal in Scotland had unraveled, saying it is still waiting for the Scottish government to advance the project, despite a “climate of hostility” in local politics.

    “I don’t think the deal is off … We are awaiting the Scottish side to build a work team for it,” Peter Zhang, managing director of SinoFortone Group, told the Global Times on Tuesday…

    …Although little headway has been made in the past months, the Scottish government resumed frequent exchanges with SinoFortone Group this month, Zhang said, adding that no official notice about the cancellation has been issued.’

  81. Thepnr says:


    “Lower incomes” = less than or equal to $50,000, £40,000 pa.”

    Brexit effect. Less than 10 years ago $50,000 = £25,000

    We are being screwed and even those with money based in pounds are a lot poorer due to Brexit. My heart doesn’t bleed for them but it does for those that manage month to month or week to week when they see inflation and interest rates rising and their wages not keeping up.

    The vast majority will be poorer because of Brexit, yet the stupid voted for it anyway.

    Scotland can escape this, we must tell our people what is coming.

  82. Capella says:

    @ cearc – well spotted. Ruth and Murdo and Willie will have to demand that the “deal” is recancelled.

  83. ronnie anderson says:

    Ah hiv 3 Degree’s but ah hiv ah wide taste in music.

    Rev your no serious in moonlighting & teaching Torrance journalism , you would need tae start at ABC mind there’s ah lot of letters in Alphabet soup, thats whit he his fur brains.

  84. ben madigan says:

    @ Thepnr at 8:17 pm
    “Just wondering aloud how many Nobel Prize winners might support Independence for Scotland?”

    Why don’t we write an e mail to them and start canvassing?

  85. Liz g says:

    Tam Jardine @ 9.45
    You Go Get Em Tam…
    You …you….!

  86. lumilumi says:

    I wish this kind of analysis was available in the MSM. Really looking at the figures and trying to understand what they mean, instead of just (sneerily) jumping into (wrong) conclusions and making up headlines and stories that confirm to prejudices and agendas.

    There’s no “free press” in the UK or the US (or many other countries) because the press is just a mouthpiece for the establishments: government in thrall to big money.

    Thank you, Rev Stu, for this piece. You’ve provided the figures, properly sourced, I’ve been trying to tell people about.

    Thank gods old and new for Wings.

  87. Liz g says:

    Capella & Cearc
    The thought of them demanding the deal is recancelled is hilarious.
    Please Please let it happen.

  88. yesindyref2 says:

    I just realised they have the same initials, I’m a bit slow – Donald Trump and David Torrance that is.

  89. sandy thomson says:

    that’s me, working class and poorly educated, still not dumb enough to vote Tory though

  90. galamcennalath says:

    NO = Leave = Trump

    Same demographic at the core.

    Plus, on the fringes, a lot of people who really didn’t think through what they had opted for.

  91. Bob Mack says:

    The UK tonight is expecting special treatment from Donald re trade. His mantra is Americanism not globalisation. How can he survive even one term if he does not immediately cancel most of the trade deals that have deprived America of jobs ?

    He has to do this to survive or there will be lynch mobs after him everywhere from friends and foes alike. We are seeing the tolerant Trump just now,but watch when he is sworn in officially.

  92. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    On the Chinese MOU Hypocrisy fae the Tories and Fid Dems:

    Aye, who vetted the ‘human rights’ o’ yer donor Wee Wullie Wankstain?

    Cash for influence lobbying perchance??

    Lies, damn lies and lies to protect the Union.

  93. Arabs for Independence says:

    It sickens me to listen to the unionists banging on about checking companies human rights – unbelievable from parties that slaughtered tens of thousands and ruined the lives of millions of Iraqi people and then behaved as if Chilcott was some report card of a naughty child.

    Does anyone from the unionist side ask to check the credentials of the people they sell weapons to – faux outrage from Mr Rennie and Ms Davidson trying to be an actress playing up for the tv cameras. They disgust me – it is aboot time the SNP got really stuck into them. The best form of defence and all that

  94. heedtracker says:

    Thick snob toryboys like these aside, its starting to look like progressive liberal America must be feeling a lot like we did, 19th Sept 2014 and this is just the start.

    Wings Over Scotland Retweeted
    Jeffrey Guterman ?@JeffreyGuterman 5h5 hours ago
    Creationist Ben Carson is Trump’s top pick for Secretary of Education.

  95. Ken500 says:

    When Scotland votes YES. Will Scotland expect the US to respect that – YES. Reciprocate.

    5 folk with Degrees all Voted YES. Some because of information studied/learnt at University. ie History/Economic History/Geography/Geology/Engineering 3 folk no Degree voted NO, but regret it.

    All in a wider circle with Degrees/HND’s voted YES. 30/40 people i.e History/Economic History/Geography/Geology/Sociology/Nursing/Medicine/Business/Marketing/Engineering/Graphics
    Art/Design/French/German/Spain/Psychology/Education/Community Education/Product Design/Computing etc.

  96. CameronB Brodie says:

    My original appraisal on Calton Hill stands, you’re a dick.

  97. Valerie says:


    I would have said something similar if it were women.

    This kind of superior sneering about education is revolting.

    But when you see some of the low class stuff Davidson has indulged in, its hardly surprising, so I suppose its a Tory trait.

    The implication here is again that Indy supporters are scum. Uneducated scum that just don’t understand the complexity of a constitutional question, and should leave it to their betters.

    It’s about class as much as anything, and it makes me furious.

  98. Cadogan Enright says:

    Chancellor of UK Exchequer today hosted and lauded Chinese investors on a stately scale

    Just Like Osborne before him . . . . .




  99. Robert Peffers says:

    @Chic McGregor says: 10 November, 2016 at 7:34 pm:

    “I thought DT had stopped twitting?”

    No! No! Chic, He said he stopped, “Twittering”, He never ever stopped twitting or being a twit, though.

  100. Big Jock says:

    If you put what Torrance is inferring bluntly. He is saying that people who want an independent Scotland are thick. The fact that he might actually believe that, tells you all you need to know about him. He thinks Scotland is a bastard nation with no prospects. He thinks we have no culture wirth freeing or celebrating. He thinks if you are poor and uneducated you don’t deserve a vote.

    The question he needs to ask himself is this. What age are you Torrance? We would expect this level of,analysis from an 8 year old in a playground. Trashing 45% of Scots is utter madness. Who are you Torrance and why do you hate poor people and for that matter Scotland.

    If you love the UK as you appear. Then embrace Brexit, xenophobia, insularism, Little England, Farage, Maggie May, Boris Johnston, and stop pretending not to.

  101. Ken500 says:

    YES voters – Social Work/Dental Degree

  102. Thepnr says:

    @sandy thomson

    “that’s me, working class and poorly educated”

    I’m working class, left school at 16 for the shipyards, didn’t gain a higher education until adulthood. Only option open to me as the shipyard was closed just as I turned 20.

    I think though that you’ve come to the right place then if your looking for education on Independence matters. We all have one vote sandy and everyone’s has the same value.

    Your vote is worth more than a Torrance or a Fraser to me.

  103. cearc says:


    I thought that I got the link from a comment here but maybe it was somewhere else.

  104. Big Jock says:

    I am struggling to support the Scottish football team after the Poppy political games. It’s more than that though. It’s the 90 minute plastic Jocks who think beating England at football is everything. A football team means nothing if you don’t have a country. We lost the games we needed to win and we are out of the world cup.

  105. Liz g says:

    OT sorry
    In the deepest darkest internet (sorry can’t do links)
    California has a YES campaign.
    That’s a yes to Independence from the US.
    Not our business ofcourse, but their YES logo looks Sooo familiar.

  106. Gary45% says:

    Not worth a comment regarding these two stellar human beings, full of natural unbiased insight into the very being of man.
    but anyway
    I have bowel motions that make more sense than those two.

  107. Legerwood says:

    One of the reasons as to why the Democrat vote did not seem to turn out in its usual numbers may be down to the active steps taken by some states to actively place obstacles in the way of people registering to vote. The conditions and hoops which they have placed in the way of voters registering actively disadvantage those who come from what has been seen in the past as natural Democratic voters – coloured and Latino voters etc.

    On the subject of uneducated people and how they vote is concerned, no one is uneducated. Everyone goes to school but what they get from that experience varies for a variety of reasons.

    Thus I think it is wrong to characterise people as uneducated rather it is a lack of curiosity, a lack of interest, in the world around them outwith their own narrow bubble and this applies across the board to those with degrees as well as those with the basic minimum education. It is not confined to one particular class or demographic.

    You can have people who have a veritable alphabet after their names who are totally immersed in their subject area but relatively ignorant of anything outwith that area and what may be worse completely uninterested in correcting that deficiency.

    And you can also have people without that alphabet of letters who take a close and intelligent interest in a wide range of things that judging them on their basic education, or making assumptions about them based on their station in life, does them a disservice.

    So it is not ‘uneducated’ it is uninterested and lack of curiosity.

    For the absence of doubt – born in a room and kitchen with an outside toilet, and have more letters after my name than some languages have in their alphabet.

  108. Thepnr says:

    I know of plenty of Professors and Emeritus Professors who are far more uneducated than the average Scot. In fact the’re thick as sh*t.

  109. Camz says:

    “Church of England” as a religion in Scotland? Might as well have church of Sweden…what a farce of a belief system.

  110. One_Scot says:

    Yes till I die. B.Eng (Hons). Get it right up ye Murdo, ye fanny. Granted, drinking on a school night, not a good idea.

  111. yesindyref2 says:

    I hate to say this but Torrance could actually be a good journalist, if he didn’t have this blind hatred of Salmond, the SNP and YES supporters. He’s also easily influenced by anyone who smiles at him like the Tories, eager to please like a miscreant puppy around a soggy biscuit. Any piece where he tries to draw analogies between anything and the SNP is doomed to be a melange of unepic misterial miniscularities. Such is the epidermis of his scribular activities.

    But if I have this right, he’s one of the few that didn’t jump all over Trump for his comments, and one of the few that didn’t make any predictions about the election.

    What he really needs is to be friends with well-balanced journalists and even politicans of any flavour. So that’s that then, he’s doomed to a writing career of non-existent undercooked portions.

    I’m afraid google didn’t translate all that very well – Torrance has the same problem.

  112. CameronB Brodie says:

    Bob Mack
    Does this help? 😉

    It must be a type of comforter to believe that you have more intelligence, insight or whatever to the bigoted low intellect working class guys.

    They fail to appreciate that there are many uneducated guys and girls out there who could buy and sell them but never got the chances in life. I hate that sort of exchange. It is highly arrogant and egotistical. Yet from what we have seen and heard from these two fools tells us that their superior knowledge exists nowhere but between their own ears imaginations.

  113. Heather says:

    Ha ha ha! Well done.

  114. Stu Mac says:

    @K1 says:

    Good point. Alec Salmond (who as we know has had dealings with Trump) was quoted saying Trump is as nice as ninepence (old style expression there) if things go his own way but when they don’t then look out! The nice Trump we are seeing is the guy who got what he wanted and is feeling at ease with the world. What happens when he meets obstacles may be a different matter.

  115. Ken500 says:

    All YES voters – Electrician/Policemen(x)/Carpetfitter/Waitress/Licencee(x)/Builder/Fisherman/Farmer/Gas Engineer/Mechanic/Gardener/Dressmaker/Accountant/Shop Owner/Hairdressers (x 3) Chip Shop (x 3)/Cook/Kitchen (x3)care worker/counsellor/retired Etc.

    NO voters – retired bookkeeper and retired joiner.

  116. Cactus says:

    A Scotland awaits, with backstage passes.

    Fur honest men and bonnie lasses.


  117. Are there any demographics on the 100,000,000 US citizens that did not vote?


  118. Robert Peffers says:

    @Fred says: 10 November, 2016 at 9:25 pm:

    “Torrance always looks on camera as if he’s just shat himself.”

    In the interests of good, clear, investigative journalism, Fred, I demand you explain what evidence exists to prove he has, NOT , “just shat himself”?

  119. Maria F says:

    “Isn’t that the same demographic that largely voted Yes in 2014?”

    And so what if it is, Mr Fraser? At the end of the day, your ‘educated’, ‘male’ and ‘wealthy’ ‘no’ vote is going to count exactly the same as that of my ‘female’, ‘working class’, ‘non-graduate’, ‘yes voting’ neighbour.

    Perhaps Mr Fraser is still in need of educating himself in the fact that out of the Tory bubble, in real life it really doesn’t matter how much education you receive. What really counts is what you actually do with the education you receive.

    So, what was really that comment, Mr Fraser? an unintended display of disdain due to a bout of arrogant Tory self-importance? Or your idea of ‘astute’ Tory persuasion of the male electorate to embrace Brexit and reject indiref2?

    “They’re different, because, um, reasons”
    Well, if this sentence is a measure of the level of eloquence, fluency of thought, persuasive writing and convincing arguments you can expect from a ‘no voting’, ‘educated’ ‘professional’, I think I much rather listen to/read what ‘not-so-educated’ ‘non-professional’, ‘yes-voters’ have to say, thank you very much.

  120. Thepnr says:


    All this from the same article by Torrance supposedly about Trump, he can’t help himself though and needs to make the story about Nationalism, Salmond and Sturgeon.

    He’s an arse at least a very bad journalist at best.

    Nationalists like Trump don’t need to have a plan, for they’re so busy othering “Washington” (the US political equivalent of “Westminster”), demonising their opponents as crooks and, of course, implying that those who don’t share their worldview are, at worst, anti-American or, at best, deeply misguided. Trump, like Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush before him, is not stupid, as liberal Americans and snobbish Brits like to believe, but he knows his opponents’ weaknesses and is opportunistically flexible when it comes to policy and ideology.

    Sound familiar? I realize this will outrage the usual suspects but at points last week Donald Trump resembled Alex Salmond on steroids.”

    “Even a cursory foray into the black-and-white world of Twitter since Nicola Sturgeon (perhaps over-hastily) fired the starting gun on another independence referendum, and the mutual incomprehension that clearly exists between many Nationalists and Unionists brings to mind the ever-growing gulf between Democrats and Republicans in the US.”

  121. Returnofthemac says:

    Canny be bothered mentioning ma degree.
    66 and Yes yes yes

  122. G4jeepers says:

    So, once again in the Scottish Parliament today we have the usual suspects moaning away at human rights and China, SNP baad.
    Yep, it’s spot the difference alright.
    Meanwhile WM politicians are signing massive trade deals with China in london
    and elsewhere…

    Last paragraph is a real eye-opener.

  123. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Liz g.

    This group has been active since the days of Indyref1.

  124. lumilumi says:

    As to the PE Trump and the reaction in my country…

    I think none of our leading politicians, starting with our President and the Speaker of the Parliament (officially the 2nd highest office in the country) and Prime Minister, through to Finance Minister, Foreign Minister, down to lesser ministers and opposition leaders, none of them wanted Trump to win. Not even the moderate UKIP-style party Foreign Minister – who, BTW, best understood why Trump won.

    Trump won. The reaction in Finland is: so we’ll have to deal with this and be pragmatic. We’ve got a 1000 mile land border with Russia so US-Russia relations really matter to us, they directly affect us, way more than most other European countries.

    Do you Scots even understand why even level-headed, reasonable, fact-based Finns are getting a bit uneasy? Yeah, you’ve got the nasty neighbour down south. With what, less than 100 miles of land border, shared language and culture. We trump (pardon the pun) you with 1000 miles without shared culture or language.

    Every single Russian person I know personally is wonderful. They’re a generous people who enjoy the good things in life, however meagre, who help each other, welcome guests, have a good laugh about the stupid politicians. But I loath and deplore and hate the re-emerging Russian nationalism, embodied by Vladimir Putin and stoked by him. He’s got his eyes on the Baltic states, and after that, even Finland.

    What is happening? I grew up towards the end or the Cold War, I was in my twenties when the Berlin Wall fell, the world was full of hope…

    And now we’ve come to this. Combating ugly nationalisms in several supposedly civilised European or American countries, not to mention the neverending war in the Middle East, leading to “religious” war between “Christian” and “Muslim” factions. I want to timetravel back to the good, hopeful days of the early 1990s. Enjoy it… erm… and as a responsible time-traveller, obviously do something that cancels the present horriblness in 2016. haha!

  125. heedtracker says:

    Scot Finlayson says:
    10 November, 2016 at 11:18 pm
    Are there any demographics on the 100,000,000 US citizens that did not vote?


    Almost exactly the same demographic in the USA that voted Trump 2016, also vote NO 2014 in Scotland. Its the middle and upper middle class in Scotland what won it.

    Its the same US and Scottish upper and middle class that enjoy very high standards of living and do not want change.

    Trump’s great fraud was that he offered change. He’s not going to change anything much at all for lower class rust belt America.

    He’s was elected by the same demographic that voted Brexit, people that do not like immigrants, from anywhere, who do not like same sex human rights, who do not want PR democracy in a self governing Scotland and who believe that benefits are a waste of money. This is why Farage and the rest of the UKIP chancers were made so welcome by Trump.

    The two tory snobs up there are fully aware of the above. They know and understand their demographic completely.

  126. Tam Jardine says:

    The tweets are risible but they betray a deeper problem. I am a couple of months younger than David and just a daft, scummy yes supporter obviously but over these last 48 hours even my myopic self has been able to view events on a larger scale.

    I am ashamed to admit it but in times of global turmoil I sometimes can put the struggle to the back of my mind and consider world events from outwith the narrow confines of Scottish self-determination.

    For an educated man (and for poor Merryn Somerset Webb) they are awfy parochial.

    Is there another nation on this earth where journalists draw such instant reflections… what does Donald Trump’s election say about Scottish Independence? How can we insult supporters of Scottish Independence through this massive political earthquake? What does Donald Trump’s election tell us about Nicola Sturgeon’s judgement?

    For example: It was my birthday yesterday but I was somehow able to view the result of the US election without connecting the two events. I can relate to what is happening in the world as a citizen of it without feeling the need to draw Trump into my own life or indeed my own politics.

    As for Murdo- as thick yessers can we just agree he’s a fud and move on?

  127. CameronB Brodie says:

    “Innit”, innit. 😉

    Hope I’m spelling that correctly. I don’t want to make a fanny-bawz of myself. 🙂

  128. Meindevon says:

    Meg thanks for these links to earthquakes in Oklahoma. Except you have scared me witless…my youngest is looking to go out to the USA on a soccer scholarship and he’s just had email of interest from an Oklahoma uni…aargh.

    I might send the links out to an environmental lawyer friend out there and see if I can get any feedback and I’ll post off topic just for your info if I hear anything.

  129. heedtracker says:

    FT on Trumpnomics. US is approaching full employment, Trump’s going for infrastructure spends and tax cuts. Who will receive Trump tax cuts?

    “The tax proposals would shower huge benefits on already rich Americans such as Mr Trump. According to the Tax Policy Center, his latest plan would raise the after-tax income of those in the middle fifth of the income distribution by $1,010 or 1.8 per cent. But the top 0.1 of the population would enjoy an average tax cut of nearly $1.1m, or more than 14 per cent of after-tax income.

    The cumulative increase in federal debt might be as much as 25 per cent of gross domestic product by 2026. Congressional Republicans might wish to offset the latter, at least partially, by slashing spending, including on social security and health. But Mr Trump opposes this.”

  130. Liz g says:

    Well well well South End on Sea are closet yes’ers.
    They have no interest in Scotland.

    Let them get back to talking about Amsterdam.
    Nae bother.
    Don’t worry bout us we’ll all be fine.
    Don’t get in our way.

  131. Rock says:

    “Isn’t that the same demographic that largely voted Yes in 2014?”

    Typical sneering Tory attitude to the “plebs”.

    Shared by the likes of The Guardian and Craig Murray (Brexit).

    How they wish that the “plebs” had never been given the vote.

  132. Liz g says:

    Oops…. America obviously
    Or well mibbi….. cause…. reasons!!!

  133. Thepnr says:


    I understand the issues with your 1000 mile land border with Russia and the history you have described.

    There is one big difference though between Finland and the UK and that is the fact that the UK has Nuclear weapons.

    In the event of a global conflict who do you believe might come of worse? Those that live in Finland or those that live in Scotland’s most populated area where the UK’s Nuclear weapons are kept?

    I’m just tugging your tail and wouldn’t expect an answer, but will say this. Despite Trumps supposed affinity with Putin how long might that last? I have no idea of course if he even has an affinity with Putin.

    Somehow I tend to doubt that because I believe Putin is a lot brighter than Trump and is probably laughing at him. Trump is an idiot in my view but I still believe that Americans are not as daft as him. I suspect he will do as he’s told, and that will be to behave himself.

    Trump is not the puppet master, he is the puppet.

  134. CameronB Brodie says:

    May is probably OK that she was still ahead of France and Germany!

    Is Trump preparing to disengage from NATO?

  135. @heedtracker

    thanks,but it was really about the 100,000,000 that never voted,

    it`s not the `why` it`s the `who`.

    looking at twitter,Tasmina must be doing a good job on BBC QT,she is getting stick from all the yoon creeps,Murdo incuded.

  136. After watching Question Time I’m rather wondering when Russia invaded Iraq, blew Libya back to the middle ages and funded ISIS against the legitimate ruler of Syria.

  137. cearc says:

    Oooh, look who’s crawled out from under his rock to offer his words of wisdom to the SG.

  138. Rock says:


    “But I loath and deplore and hate the re-emerging Russian nationalism, embodied by Vladimir Putin and stoked by him. He’s got his eyes on the Baltic states, and after that, even Finland.”

    You seem to be have been completely taken in by Western propaganda.

    Who has got their eyes on all the countries surrounding Russia, especially the oil rich ones?

    Who has been sponsoring revolutions on Russia’ doorstep?

    Clinton is an anti Russian hawk and warmonger whereas Trump is much more likely to have a better relationship with Putin and Russia.

    I think that would be good for world peace.

    It was extremely foolish of European leaders, Nicola included, to have openly backed Clinton against Trump.

    If the hypocrites (Nicola excluded) really meant what they said, they should start distancing themselves away from US policies detrimental to world peace instead of blindly following them as has been the case till now.

  139. CameronB Brodie says:

    Re. Scotland’s social illiteracy. Natural? Accidental? Constructed?

    Billie Holiday – Ghost Of Yesterday

  140. Liz g says:

    Brian Doonthetoon
    Thanks for that link
    You are obviously deeper and darker in the internet than me I haven’t heard of them.
    Just like with the stuff Tam Jardine found earlier this Indy thing is definitely a lot more international and far reaching than we are led to believe. WOW
    Wee Scotland who knew???…..well!! Robert Peffers of course YOU did..LOL
    Sorry ye hi’ve tae laugh…or else ye’ll greet.

  141. Bob Mack says:

    During my stint working in the East end of Glasgow, I had occasion to work with many well known” bad boys “who regularly appeared in Scottish newspapers. I can tell you now that some of them were among the best intellects I have ever known.

    Many could never leave the area where they were born and raised

    I remember one in particular who had attended school for less than five years throughout his life. However during our meetings he utterly outclassed my own knowledge on a wide range of subjects in science,philosophy, sociology.All self taught. He survived in a world few of us could understand or appreciate where violence and harm were the currency of choice.

    I used to wonder what he could or may have done with his life given opportunities. I guess I will never know, and that is the shame of missed chances for youth.

  142. Onwards says:

    lumilumi says:
    10 November, 2016 at 11:29 pm

    Every single Russian person I know personally is wonderful. They’re a generous people who enjoy the good things in life, however meagre, who help each other, welcome guests, have a good laugh about the stupid politicians. But I loath and deplore and hate the re-emerging Russian nationalism, embodied by Vladimir Putin and stoked by him. He’s got his eyes on the Baltic states, and after that, even Finland.


    lumilumi , I don’t think Putin would ever invade the Baltic states or Finland and risk triggering a world war. It doesn’t make any sense.

    Rightly or wrongly, Crimea was seen in Russia as a historic injustice after the USSR broke up and Yeltsin didn’t negotiate for Crimea to be returned to Russia after Khrushchev’s previous ‘gift’.

    Given the history behind it and the large Russian majority, Crimea is seen as a special case, and the West was never going to get involved in any conflict there.

    Just looking at a map, Russia doesn’t need to expand. It’s a massive country, but what they are missing is the weather.
    Crimea offers some nice coastline in the summer for Russian holiday destinations. There was talk of Yalta and Sochi being future casino resorts.. a kind of Russian Las Vegas.

  143. heedtracker says:

    Scot Finlayson says:
    10 November, 2016 at 11:55 pm

    But they have never voted though. America’s got very harsh vote conditions too. Criminal record? No vote.

  144. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is for the public servant ? and the fan-boy dick.

    Grounding and Awareness of Groundedness

    P.S. I’m not a Green mole, hippy, or even have much hair. Someone who is not grounded is easily swayed.

  145. Ken500 says:

    10% of US electorate are of Scottish descent. A lobby for Scotland with many close connections. Trump won with 1%+. There are elections for the US Senate every 2 years. Trump needs their support for legislation.

  146. Rock at 12.06

    This time you are exactly correct. The shit being talked about Russia and Putin on QT tonight was almost unbearable.

    What assails Syria is a proxy US invasion by ISIS,organised and equipped by US and funded by Saudi Arabian money.

  147. heedtracker at 11.39

    Incorrect. US has a massive unemployment problem. Just short of 95 million of the working age Americans (about one third of the potential work force)do not have work. Most of them are no longer looking for work. The 4.7% unemployment figure represents only those who are registered looking for work.

  148. Ken500 says:

    40Million Scottish disaporia. In US, NZ, Australia.etc. Founders. Scottish migration. The clearances etc. ‘Scottish Day’ Celebrations. New York. Highland Games etc. A large market for Whisky, food stuffs, tartan, music, tourism etc. Celtic Connections.

    Westminster centralist economic policies (Thatcher) depopulated Scotland. Higher unemployment No jobs etc. – migration. Thatcher secretly and illegally took the Oil revenues and invested in London S/E. Decimated the Scottish economy. The Tories are now doing the same. Taxing the Oil and Gas sector at 40% (when the price has fallen). Importing untaxed frack Gas and Oil from the US. Losing thousands of jobs and £Billions in Scotland. Putting up the trade deficit and the debt.

  149. Liz g says:

    Bob Mack @ 12.11
    Without being disparaging about any other human beings.
    Even the one’s who have had access to the best of opportunities.
    I do wonder at the people who would bow their head and deffer to Charles Windsor.
    What are his academic achievements?
    What job has he ever held ?
    How can he ever follow his own dream?
    Don’t forget
    His son?
    His grandson?
    What exactly ARE their qualifications for running a country,their expertise in signing law’s???
    Is it cause they have the back up of 11 sport’s men they have never met ???
    Wulls in particular… The product of a broken home,a father with questionable morals.
    Like Trump marries and disreguards a younger women?
    Dubious education cause we can’t be sure it’s not bought.
    Likes rhinos better than poor weans?
    Need I go on?
    Or do we just think that them in glass houses..ect..

  150. Ken500 says:

    Some Police with connections to the criminal Godfathers have suggested they could have been Professors or high achieving businessmen in another life. The risk factor in both master criiminals and high achieving business folk are similar Psychologically. ‘Psycho Bastards’. The Tory politicians.

  151. CameronB Brodie says:

    galamcennalath says:
    10 November, 2016 at 8:11 pm

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    the demographic they inhabit is the one ‘poorly educated’ in the political and social dynamic of modern Scotland.

    Either that or:
    1. They are in denial
    2. They are lying

    Yes. When you don’t think like a Yoon it’s always kind of hard to know what they are thinking.

    Ignorance, denial, or deceit – it’s never quite clear which applies for any particular utterance.

    To be safe, it’s best to assume deceit while feinting a more innocent explanation.

    Naw mate, their yoons. It works Better Together i.e. a state of deceitful, ignorant denial. It’s a monist thing.

    Did that provide a robust solution of syntheses? 😉

  152. Liz g says:

    Oh and I forgot
    Smallaxe once told me not to describe myself as half educated
    and I can’t claim any formal education.
    Three O levels is it.
    But I will tell those two idiots… I have more qualifications than LIZZIE WINDSOR so they should be very careful of going down the who is and who isn’t educated route!

  153. Big Phil says:

    @Bob Mack, I grew up in the East-end, a wee place called Lilybank,was likened to, not a third world,but a “fourth world country”,as shown by Mr Magnus Magnusson on the Telly. I left when i was seventeen and took the queens shilling,but from them days till now i can honestly say you are correct,there were some bright characters ,most of them didnt want or need edumacated in skool,they knew life as it was and looked after their own(the skint) .Everyone borrowed from the person that got a pay day and so the vicious circle started, It was an education in Life under maggie T. Some learned true life values and others didnt ,the ones that did got a Degree and a Doctorate in one course they cant teach in colleges and that is How to Care. I PASSED cos I voted YES.

  154. Still Positive. says:

    I was written off by a misogynistic headmaster at 15 – I only had to find a job until I found a man! I kid you not, but my mother put him right.

    I went to Uni aged 37 with 4 children and a very supportive feminist husband. I have a degree in English, French and Politics from Glasgow Uni and a post-grad in Secondary Education, also from my alma mater.

    I also voted Yes having believed in Scottish Independence since my teens before my uni education.

    However, I did research before indyref and found the McCrone Report among others which confirmed what I believed.

    I am also over 60 (at indyref I was 2 days short of my 64th birthday) and a woman.

    I am one of the fortunate pensioners in Scotland as I have a UK Civil Servant Widows Pension, a Scottish teacher’s pension and a UK State pension which is enhanced because my beloved husband died some years before retirement age.

  155. Meg merrilees says:


    Re Fracking/Earthquakes

    My links were in reply to a post from Sandy on the ‘Please be Wrong’ thread.
    Sandy posted at 12.36,10th nov and again at 3.43am,10th nov.
    Sandy has worked in the hydrocarbon industry and was equally shocked.

    I’m delighted your son may be going there to study, well done that laddie. Sorry if i’ve shocked you but i was surprised too. It’s great that you have a contact out there. I (and I’m sure Sandy) will be interested to hear from a local source. Good Luck!

    Tasmina spoke well on QT tonight and even managed to get a quick Scottish reference into the Brexit discussion at the end of the programme. Sadly, audience were a bit shouty as she spoke and Dumbledore tried to silence her but she kept going.

  156. CameronB Brodie says:

    Did the volume of state sponsored murder by drone not go up under Obama? Good man?

  157. Still Positive. says:

    I can honestly say, as a retired English teacher, I was barely able to get to the second column in the paper when I still bought it. His ‘arguments’ are based on his Britnat ideology which I will never buy into. He cannae even put forward a decent argument for anything.

    Stopped my subscription to ‘The Herald’ after the great Ian Bell died and I don’t regret it.

  158. CameronB Brodie says:

    I believe a lot of them thought ‘F*ck it, what else do I have to lose/how worse can it be for me and mine than it is’.

    Perhaps they decided to make a monkey out of who/what they perceived to be their enemy?

  159. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    I spotted Tam’s talent a while back.

  160. CameronB Brodie says:

    Scotland must rise above the ethics of a colonial state struggling with modernity.

    We live in neo-liberal, post-modern times. Let’s not step in to ‘neo-neo-liberalism’, which is gonna be nasty.

    Let’s step in to liberty.

  161. lumilumi says:

    @ Thepnr, Rock and Onwards above

    Thepnr, I get your point about Faslane, and commiserate. But we’re not so different. If you look at a map, our capital Helsinki is as close to Russia’s second city St Petersburg (and the military installations even closer to Finland) as Glasgow is to Aberdeen – so not very far as nuclear fallout goes, especially because the land between StP and Hel is mostly flat and prevailing winds usually blow from the east. Russia’s main naval/nuclear base in the north, Murmansk, will take care of northern Finland. No, the Russians won’t nuke us, we’ll be “collateral damage” when the US nuke Murmansk. haha. grim. haha.

    And @ Rock.
    How dare you pontificate on me about my opinions, call me “brainwashed” by “western propaganda”. You don’t live right next door to the old Russian empire/the USSR/modern Russia that wants to be an empire again (England and Russia ought to be friends about this). For nearly 100 years Finland has carefully negotiated every step to keep friendly relations (often contrary to US or UK wishes, and later sometimes even general EU view).

    OK, so Trump and Putin are supposed to get along fine. Is that supposed to make my country feel comfortable? No, they’d be talking above our heads, my country wouldn’t matter much, just another small oil-less piece of land – but with strategic access to the Baltic Sea for Russia. (Russia’s big problem is that they have scant and awkward access to European seas). Whoopi-doo! (It’s even worse for the Baltic countries, they were occupied during and after WW II, Finland at least repelled the Soviet Union and kept her independence.)

    @ Onwards
    “Putin would never invade Finland or the Baltics because they’re different from Crimea…” Myeah, maybe not Finland. But make no mistake, Putin-controlled MSM in Russia are whipping up resentment against Finland and the Baltic states, which they see as natural parts of Greater Russia (Finland maybe less than the Baltic states because we gave the USSR a bloody nose in 1939-1940 and again in 1941-1945.) It’s probably difficult to comprehend for a UK person how worrying times we live, from the Finnish or Baltic perspective.

    On the positive side, we’ve had lots of snow early this year. Beautiful, and no problem because we’ve all changed winter tyres (most of them studded!) for our cars. As I write, it’s snowy and -13 degrees centigrade outside. Gods, I love it!

  162. CameronB Brodie says:

    Let’s step in to the state of liberty. Topical, me? 🙂

  163. CameronB Brodie says:

    The best form of defence and all that

    I’ve never been fishing either. 😉

  164. K1 says:

    Regarding my earlier comments about Trump. The editorial board of the New York Times is calling on Trump to ‘denounce the hate’ :

    ‘In his victory speech early Wednesday morning, Donald Trump pledged that he “will be president for all Americans,” and he asked those who did not support him “for your guidance and your help so that we can work together and unify our great country.”

    Here’s some guidance right off the bat, Mr. President-elect: Those sentiments will have more force if you immediately and unequivocally repudiate the outpouring of racist, sexist, xenophobic, anti-Semitic and homophobic insults, threats and attacks being associated with your name. Do this in a personal plea to people who supported your candidacy. Tell them this is not what you stand for, nor is it what your new administration will tolerate.’

    Will he?


  165. CameronB Brodie says:

    “Just wondering aloud how many Nobel Prize winners might support Independence for Scotland?”

    Why don’t we write an e mail to them and start canvassing?

    Might not be such a weird idea. It doesn’t look like the master’s tools anyway. He leave them laying about everywhere. It’s his habit.

  166. CameronB Brodie says:

    btw apparently specificity and ambiguity are a deadly combination when employed correctly, both in the immediate and across time. I wonder if fan-boy would agree?

  167. Liz g says:

    Still Positive @ 1.11
    Sadly it still goes on.
    I know that I come across as a bit belligerent about this stuff.
    But my youngest daughter was told by her teacher in 2nd year when picking her options to …be realistic…
    Our insistence that she get the subjects she wanted and met the requirements for have resulted in a first in law.
    And she is now in the middle of a Master’s.
    Had she/we given way to the convenience or the preconceived judgement of the school,Scotland would have but another undereducated kid.
    Now though Scotland has a kid in academia that won’t follow the British way of thinking.
    I might not always agree but I know she is honestly reaching her conclusions.
    So I do listen.
    I am sadly one of those who was not strong enough to defeat the system and get myself qualified but I have made dam sure my kid’s are.
    Funnily enough being educated has ment that they have turned out to be YES voter’s…Go figure..

  168. CameronB Brodie says:

    My day was started by the hooter in those yards, I probably spotted you walking up the hill to get the bus. I think there’s still some sort of maritime activity there but not the same level of employment. Pitty.

    The Tay has so much potential, possibly even as one of northern Europe’s higher-quality, deep-water river-frontages environments. Nice.

  169. CameronB Brodie says:

    In the interests of good, clear, investigative journalism, Fred, I demand you explain what evidence exists to prove he has, NOT , “just shat himself”?

    Back of the net Robert. 🙂

  170. CameronB Brodie says:

    I wasn’t awarded honours. Perhaps it was because I wrote my dissertation when my brain resembled lumpy soup? Glad to get that off my chest.

  171. yesindyref2 says:

    Look at the state of this from the ignorant disrespectful Herald:

    the poppy in the picture is NOT the Scottish Poppy with 4 petals made by mostly disabled veterans in Edinburgh, it’s the English poppy with 2 petals and a leaf.

  172. CameonB Brodie says:

    1.8% v 14+% of after-tax income.

    Now that’s what I call leverage.

  173. Malky says:

    Yes? Tick!
    Degree? Tick!
    Post-graduate? Tick! Tick! Tick!
    “Professional”? Tick!
    Tory sympathiser? Haha!

  174. ScottieDog says:

    So maybe the more pertinent question is WHEN and obviously WHERE people were educated.

  175. Macart says:

    TBF I’m an uneducated working class male. University of Life graduate right enough. (No letters)

    Fact I’m everything Fraser and Torrance show contempt for. The last thing on their no doubt long list of stereotypes I’m particularly proud of though, I’m a supporter of every human’s right to self determination.

    Probably something to do with that poor ejicashun n’ shit.

  176. skintybroko says:

    Nobody is uneducated, we all learn from the day we are born as you say Macart – The University of Life – just because you don’t get a certificate from it doesn’t mean you are uneducated and I take offense to those like Murdo and Torrance who clearly have no life experience. I work with “uneducated” people who run a superb business and are streets ahead of that pair.

  177. Macart says:


    Some great links there Nana.

    Huff (just for once) and France 24 are standout. 🙂

  178. Nana says:

    Got this earlier

    You’re receiving this email because you signed this petition: “A referendum to Vote Scotland out of the U.K.”.


    The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “A referendum to Vote Scotland out of the U.K.”.
    Government responded:

    The Government is committed to making a success of leaving the EU, together as one United Kingdom. In 2014 people in Scotland voted to remain part of the UK and that result should be respected.

    The United Kingdom will in due course be leaving the European Union and the UK Government is committed to making a success of this, together as one United Kingdom.
    In 2014, the Scottish people decided in a legal, fair and decisive referendum to remain a strong part of the UK. The Edinburgh Agreement of 2012 committed both the UK and Scottish Governments to respecting the outcome of the Scottish referendum.

    The Prime Minister has made clear her commitment to the United Kingdom and that she leads a government of the whole UK. The UK Government believes that the arguments for Scotland remaining a part of the UK are just as compelling as they have always been – for both Scotland and the rest of the UK. Our focus now should be on working together to secure the best deal for the whole of the UK.
    Scotland Office

  179. CameronB Brodie says:

    That’s me grubbed then, I don’t speak Hungarian, if ye ken fit ah mean?

  180. Nana says:


    I was surprised to read that in the huffy. I’ve not gone back to check out the comments, sure the leavers will have had something to say.

    @Smallaxe Make lots of coffee, plenty to read this morning.

  181. Capella says:

    Just heard that Leonard Cohen has died. Sad end to a grim week. But what a treasure trove of songs to leave behind.

  182. Macart says:


    And 2016 just keeps on delivering.

    That’s grim.

    RIP Leonard Cohen

  183. Mike says:

    Careful Rev you’ll scare him off Twitter.

  184. Scott says:

    BBC Scotland news.
    Did anyone else notice the clip showing Carlaw have his little dig and then the FM clip but not the reply to Carlaw where she mentioned the Tanks tweet typical bbc cheating.
    I also saw in the north press tory P&J the letters page were all about how the FM should resign and be ashamed of herself no mention of Ruthie and her tweet.

  185. Capella says:

    Re P & J: people in the NE are always encouraged to hate the “Central Belt”, always depicted as after their money. Divide and rule tactics eagerly adopted by P & J scribblers. It works.

  186. mike cassidy says:

    I know its OT – but Leonard Cohen.

    2016 – the year that keeps on taking.

    Lovely article about his collaboration with Sharon Robinson here.

    And its “Alexandra Leaving” on repeat for me.

  187. Another Union Dividend says:

    Scott Says

    Carlaw also lied in Parliament when he claimed Nicola Sturgeon’s predecessor appointed Donald Trump as a Scottish Ambassador when it was Jack McConnell.

    Also Ruth Davidson blamed Lib Dems for attacking Chinese MoU when she publically attacked it in April

    Martin MacDonald @Innealadair
    Ruth Davidson and the Chinese MOU.

    View image on Twitter

  188. the fat spaniard says:

    They both speak out of their waste expulsion pipes

  189. Scott says:

    I wonder if Willie Rennie will be protesting to Charlie about this very much doubt it the 2 faced ****he is.

  190. galamcennalath says:

    O/T Excellent…

    Tartan Army footsoldier treat train passengers to Tam o’ Shanter ahead of Scotland v England game

  191. Valerie says:

    Scott 9.20

    Yes, I saw that. I think it’s disgusting there has been no coverage, apart from Indy supporters on Twitter, of Ruth’s Trump tweet.

    Again, its a disgusting, bile ridden tweet, beyond the pale for a public figure. Folk are saying her tweet is deleted, though it’s been captured and still sharing back to Davidson.

    I worked in the public sector for almost 30 years, and never talked down, or acted superior to anyone. I dealt with all walks of life, addicts, criminals and elected members.

    When you are really clever, with a bit of emotional intelligence, you don’t belittle people, or mimic their poor behaviour. That’s not to say you are a doormat, and MANY times I asked people to stop swearing at me, if they wanted me to help.

    That’s where my abhorrence of these politicians acting like smug, superior arses comes from.

    I don’t know why Nicola is condemning Trumps behaviour, and letting the Scottish Tories away with this shit. It needs to be called out.

  192. Smallaxe says:


    Good morning Nana,running late,got your links thanks.Kettle’s on.

    Peace Always

  193. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Owen Smith
    Lucky you cut me off btl, eh?

  194. heedtracker says:

    Coffee time Graun, if only progressive liberal America had had the BBC running their meeja says Timothy Garton-Ash. Timothy also says its bad over there but,

    “In Britain that means standing up for the independence of the judiciary, the sovereignty of parliament and the impartial strength of the BBC. In the US we shall now witness the biggest test of one of the strongest, oldest systems of liberal democratic checks and balances.”

    Last nights BBC Question Time signed off with Dimbelby stating that “the SNP do not speak for Scotland Tasmina.”

  195. Proud Cybernat says:

    And, alas, these two are NOT different. They are exactly the same. A pair of wallopers. I know this to be true for, um, reasons.

  196. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Kelvin MacKenzie
    Be mindful that different circumstances require different approaches to inclusion. I know a bit about this so give me shout if you need a hand. 😉

    The Process of Rural-Urban Migration in Developing Countries

  197. Broch Landers says:

    I don’t read the established Scottish press for political or cultural comment at all now (only basic news with an eye to the usual embedded bias) and haven’t done for some time since the emergence of alternatives that are more well-informed, intelligent, radical and honest (as in honest about their intentions, methods and conclusions). Once upon a time such an alternative media would have relied on pamphlets and networks of physical meetings. Now the digital platform does all that heavy lifting for you.

    Progress is a great thing. Oh but hang on, I am an independence supporter and therefore also a luddite. I’m too thick to resolve this contradiction by myself, so maybe l’ll ask my British paper of choice (some choice), the Guardian, for some mental reprogramming. They are announcing that we need to return to the source of all that is enlightened and good in the world, which apparently is, erm, 90s neoliberalism and Tony Blair.

  198. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Kelvin MacKenzie
    You might even say my appreciation of the processes involved enabled me to articulate in to my argument, the pain and deprivation caused through inequality and exclusion. Get the picture? Dick.

  199. sassenach says:

    Is the ‘Ruthie tweet’ that was deleted available to view anywhere?
    Apologies if I’ve missed it.

  200. heedtracker says:

    Broch Landers

    You missed an interesting display of how it works in the UK this morning, Today show, Independence Ref 2 not happening for Scotland, Brexit Ref 2 for UK a must happen. Welcome to the UK zone of democracy n shit.

    “Democracy must not end in a ‘stitch up’
    The Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron said there must be a second referendum on the terms of any approach to Brexit.

    He told the Today programme the Brexit process must not end up in a “stitch-up” with “a deal being imposed on the British people that absolutely nobody voted for.”

  201. Clootie says:

    …it doesn’t matter if a story is true or not to unionist. The opportunity for a slur is to good to miss.

    Torrance will never be a journalist because of a major character flaw…he doesn’t care about the truth. He selects only the evidence that fits HIS model of the world.

    The picture they are trying to paint is a repeat of the spin that we are all simpletons under the evil cult of SNP mind controller. Interesting that the “mind control” tactics on display post Ref1 are all Unionist – “The Great British …..” / Union Flags on every product including Scottish produce / TV adverts in which Union flags appear on rugs, seat cushions etc / Sporting events / Special programmes about the anniversary of some battle/war/ etc

    So in summary:
    The Scots are too wee,poor and stupid – The clever people down South have to look after the thick people up North and only trust them with pocket money.
    We killed a lot of people together – so be proud of our shared history (some even had sharp spears)
    We could still kill lots of people together with our WMD (be proud that we sit at the the big boys table)
    OUR history is English history (we were just savages before the saved us…what enlightenment?)

    …and this is from our fellow Scots. These two. Kezia, Willie Rennie, Ruthie and sadly the majority of their voter base. Westminster hardly needs to make an effort…Scots will keep their fellow Scots down.

  202. Ken500 says:

    The member of the Unionists Parties are complete craven liars who are out to destroy the world economy. That is why there are so few of them. Most people would rather spend their time doing something useful than plundering the public purse (other people’s money) trying to destroy the world economy. Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Causing conflict and poverty and death the world over.

    Exhibit A The UK Foreign Secretary? Alexander Boris Johnston. Google it. Thatcher said of child molesters and murderers. ‘Boys will be boys’. Colluding with criminals. Many of Westminster/ Unionist are criminals who think they are about the Law and get away with it. The Tory Party committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies. They are just getting away with it. Farague is a lying crook, embezzler and defraud. He illegally funded a political Party with public (EU) money. He illegally hasn’t ever submitted his Party accounts. Against the UK Law. UK Law is not unforced by Westminster. May, Hammond, Fallon etc incompetent liars. They do not believe in Democracy or the rule of Law. People are now having to go to Law to correct their criminality. Harmful egos and greed. ‘Psyco bastards’. Their own description.

    Never have the MSM printed and express such absolute drivelling nonsense. They really have excelled themselves, by going even lower. Thank goodness there is the Internet. Even though the lying authorities try to illegally take control. They even try to illegally control that.

    The P & J is a disgrace. Owned by a failed Football Club owner. The editor’s wife manages the Trump Development.

    Trump gets pilloried for being more truthful. Than the appalling people – the Clintons – who illegally attacked and killed innocent women and children the world over and tried to destroy the world economy. They should be put in prison. Clinton is a rapist and his wife colluded in his crimes. What example do they give to people? Mass murderers.

  203. heedtracker says:

    Having tried everything possible to damage that £12bn China investment in Scotland, Pacific Quay liggers ramp up the trouble/tension for Sturgeon and Trump’s USA. Lovely crew in that glass box of tory tricks.

  204. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    The P&J heavily pushed the ‘Central Belt and Pro Indy Councils like Dundee getting the money raised by the SG council tax increases’ in the run up to the Local By-elections last week.

    P&J also loves to give Lewis McDonald, Ross Thomson, Mike Rumbles, Alexander Burnett, Peter Chapman loads of prominence in their SNPBaad pieces.

    Their Holyrood Correspondent Andrew Liddle is very Partisan and the leters are always good for a dose of ‘frothing Yoon anger’ at NS/SNP/SG or all three.

  205. Breeks says:

    Might be the weather or hibernating time, but I feel like a bear with a sore head this morning.

    I am sick and tired of these creeps who wake up in the morning wondering how they can turn their forked tongue around another belittling slight against their own damned country. They are singing the same trash anthem for the UKOK master-race as Lord HawHaw William Joyce belted out for Nazi Germany.

    You don’t think so? Joyce once quoted “the people of England will curse themselves for having preferred ruin from Churchill to peace with Hitler”. Is that so very different from, “the people of Scotland will curse themselves for having preferred ruin from Sturgeon to peace with Trump”?

    I am sick, properly heart sick, of all these supine “uncle Tam” apologists for a bogus dysfunctional broken Union who use every opening and opportunity which they are presented with not to promote or share their belief in the Union, but pedal myths, lies and distortions like a thrupny bit quack faith healer selling ampules of magical elixir. Don’t look at the small print of ingredients, just listen to me!!!

    When is Unionism going to roll out its Champion, the real ambassor for an honourable settlement who can finally articulate a convincing case why it is so important for Scotland’s fate to be bound to the Union? If you are so proud of your loyalty, and convinced by your argument, they why Oh why do you keep those arguments to yourself and sit back while liars, frauds and turncoat lackeys make the case on your behalf? If you’re a Scottish Unionist with a shade of integrity, you too would be as toe-curled and embarrassed by the fraud, corruption and distortion of the truth which is meant to pass for U.K. Journalism.

    You are acting not only as if you cannot articulate any positive case for the Union, but worse, that the true arguments for Unionism are disreputable, improper, and shameful, and whatever else unfolds, all is lost if that truth is ever recognised and can no longer be hidden. Is that it? McCrone type denial is all that Scotland is worth to you?

    Put up, or shut up, you spineless apologists for, and instruments for the propagation of, such vile subversive propaganda designed to undermine the self determination of your own God damned country.

    I invite you, both Torrance and Fraser, to make time in your busy day, to sit down with a pen and paper, and rigorously articulate without bullshit or delusional fancy, what is it you see in the Union of the United Kingdom. I mean it. Physically sit down and do it. Don’t do it for my sake, don’t interpret the request as a hostile assault, but do it for your own salvation.

    You are not standing up for the Union. You are standing up for Scotland to be cheated, robbed and belittled, and worst of all you’re proud of it.

  206. chris kilby says:

    Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, trolls gotta troll.


  207. heedtracker says:

    BBC Scotland ramps up the Trump heat for Sturgeon. Meanwhile, BBC England in exact opposite reportage for BoJO and his Trumpian chums. Or just another day on planet toryboy, BBC style.

    US Vice President-elect Mike Pence called Boris Johnson on Thursday night, the BBC understands.
    Sources close to the UK foreign secretary said the two men had spoken at about 2100 GMT for ten minutes about building a strong UK/US relationship.
    The BBC understands it was Mr Pence’s first call to an overseas politician.”

    You an even comment, in BBC England, not Scotland though. Scotland commenting is not allowed, by order:D

  208. David says:

    Hello sassenach, Ruth’s tweet about Trump:

    “So, twitter, we’re all agreed? Trump’s a clay-brained guts, knotty-pated fool, whoreson obscene greasy tallow-catch, right?”

    It’s a quote from Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1. So that makes it ok…wonder why she deleted it. 🙂

  209. Vestas says:

    A bit off-topic but I think we have another candidate to rival McFadyen in epic stupidity and a complete lack of self-awareness….

    Take a bow Katharine Murphy with this complete pile of self-serving crap :

    Given how the Aussie press behaves I think the phrase “catastrophically stupid” fits this worthless hack perfectly.

  210. Dan Huil says:

    The bbc has stopped trying to be politically neutral in Scotland. We must stop paying the bbc tax. Let britnats pay for britnat propaganda.

  211. Ken500 says:

    The P & J just like the rest of the MSM is appalling. Do not buy it. Lie after unresearched lie. A total failure. The owner couldn’t run a sussessful football club. The terraces are empty. All the P & J does is support the wealthy owner’s political position. Tax evading et al. The usual nonsense.

    Regarding the US election the ‘Press’ has fallen to a new totally unresearch irrelevance nonsense.

    The Scottish Gov funded the AWPR £3/4Billion.

    Regarding council tax. The P & J printed a complete uncorrabocated lie. Not only do all councils keep their own tax raised. They also receive even more revenues from the Scottish Gov which many (ACC) then proceed to squander in every way possible. On grotesque projects the majority do not want and not on statutory essential services. Against the majority wishes and the public interest.

    Ruth Davidson totally lied.

    Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence.

  212. Proud Cybernat says:

    What Breeks said!!


  213. liz says:

    RIP Leonard Cohen -a genius.
    It was a blessing in disguise when his money was embezzled by his accountant as it gave him a new lease of life.

    As for the P&J, never will understand them.
    They were annoyed at the closure of the army bases, but must hate the SNP more.

    Was thinking that if the Chinese are quoting lack of progress, maybe Alex S should get involved.

  214. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Ken500.

    The Press & Journal is owned by Aberdeen Journals, which is owned by DC Thomson and it is printed in Dundee. What’s the football connection?

  215. Murdo Fraser should be asked to explain himself publically in Hollyrood. He is, after all, a public servant, even to those less-well educated.

  216. Proud Cybernat says:

    “…Dimbelby stating that “the SNP do not speak for Scotland Tasmina.”

    Which begs the rather obvious question, Who DOES speak for Scotland?

    And the answer? Until the SNP came to power in 2007, NO ONE spoke for us, we had no voice in this very one-sided ‘Union’. And THAT is precisely the problem Scotland has had since it agreed to the Union of 1707; that is when we lost our voice, simply gave it up.

    Well, we’re beginning to find it again. And we WON’T be silenced.

    If the SNP does not speak for Scotland then NO ONE does. And that is exactly how the ProudScotButt Yoons would muh prefer it, that we just shut up and eat our Brexit cereal.

    The times they are a-changin’ – Hallelujah.

  217. Scott says:

    The right thing to do is to challenge racism,misogyny and hatred,

    Quote from JK Rowling.

    Why oh why then I ask is she a follower of the one called Spanner who has said more vile things about women.

  218. Ken500 says:

    The Greens certainly do not promote women. 6 male MSP’s liars. Colluding with Unionists to destroy the world economy. Ruth Davidson (Thatcher)doesn’t support women being a member of a political Party who wants to make women/people’s lives harder. Sanctioning the vulnerable and kill and starve people, especially women and children. She thinks it’s PR a joke. Putting on a suit does not make anyone a good politician. LibDems do not support women. Colluding with Tories to make women’s lives harder. Killing innocent people and destroying the world economy. A bunch of total and absolute criminal lying hypocrites.

    If Trump can stop the US from going bankrupt. He is doing the world a favour. Alexander Boris Johnston calling out Trump. Where to start.

  219. Big Jock says:

    Challenge Jk to prove anything….. Still waiting dear!

  220. CameronB Brodie says:

    Yoons are anti progress. Perhaps they wish they could turn the clock back a thousand years or more?

  221. heedtracker says:

    Quote from JK Rowling.

    Why oh why then I ask is she a follower of the one called Spanner who has said more vile things about women.

    Because for unionists like these, stopping Scotland from becoming an independent nation state again, trumps all.

  222. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “The right thing to do is to challenge racism, misogyny and hatred, Quote from JK Rowling.”

    I think it is called hypocrisy @ Scott says at 11:22 am

    Examples of this abound among the “Saviours of the Yooniverse”

  223. Smallaxe says:

    liz g:

    O/T Please in 5minute.s

    Peace Always

  224. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Kelvin MacKenzie
    I think my BEING Scots helped my appreciation of life under oppression. Care to comment? Dick.

  225. Ken500 says:

    @ DC Thomson (P & J) investment in Dundee FC.

  226. I am male, I voted YES in the Independence referendum, I am working class, what I am NOT is poorly educated and for the record I might just be classed as being aged as well.

  227. Andrew Mclean says:

    Re mou, I was arguing with Pete on here and he asked why the SNP hadn’t said the deal was off, in an attempt to shut him up, or perhaps agree, well stranger things have happened I came across the link to the global times of China

    I sent link to national, and posts here.

    What is interesting is the posts, I think we should all post equally on foreign news sites, get the message out, with links to wings. Make friends, influence people.

    On bed with norovirous, bit dizzy but you get my point.

  228. Artyhetty says:

    Re; Breeks@10.43am

    Excellently put Breeks.

    It’s quite bizarre, the way the unionists are so intent on portraying their own country as, well, sh**e!

    I have said this before but when the hell do you ever hear anyone from south britain completely talk down their own country, not even in areas, regions where there are huge problems economically and socially. I am thinking NE england. I see posts on fb, from a friend there about sieges with guns, stabbings, all kinds of dreadful crimes. You never hear people there, on any level, saying that their region is crap, quite the opposite!

    Of course, the unionists in Scotland depend on a nice big fat pay cheque,so they blurt out lies, twist the facts and demonise the SNP at any opportunity. May they rot in hell.

  229. Jack Murphy says:

    Nana said at 8:11am:-
    “——-Good R ”

    Thanks Nana for that link to info about the documentary film,’London Calling’.
    I haven’t seen it yet,but when it comes to a place near me I’ll persuade some pals to the viewing.

  230. Fred says:

    The Irish, who have a word for everything, would describe the likes of Torrance,Fraser & Co as “Shoneen”, people who regard Westminster politics & English culture as superior to anything found at home. To dismiss an Irish political candidate as “Shoneen” usually puts paid to his chances & rightly so.

    WE need a Scottish equivalent, the House of Lords is packed with the buggers.

  231. Fred says:

    @ Lumilumi, good post, well tellt. 🙂

  232. CameronB Brodie says:

    I think you might have burst the net. 😉

  233. sassenach says:

    David @10-50am

    Thanks for that.

  234. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Kelvin MacKenzie
    I thought why leave you stranded when I can give you a helping hand. Just a few significant publications or would you like me to put a reading list together for you? It would be my pleasure. Dick.

    Urbanisation, rural–urban migration and urban poverty

  235. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Kelvin MacKenzie
    I won’t over-burden you so I’ll just leave this one and go and put some titles together for you, eh? Wouldn’t want to over-tax you, I might suppress your development potential.

    Cities in Developing Countries: Fueled by Rural-Urban Migration, Lacking in Tenure Security, and Short of Affordable Housing

    P.S. Does “Lacking in Tenure Security, and Short of Affordable Housing” sound a bit like contemporary Britain, England especially? Well, they’re special, innit? Almost forgot. Dick!

  236. Graham King says:

    Great fact-checking article! Such spurious pundits as Murdo Fraser and David Torrance very evidently need held to account, the more publicly the better. It is egregious and seems snobbish of them to postulate a lumpen proletariat as makers of what they consider wrong choices.

    My own contrary contribution to the statistics: I am 54, born in England but raised from the age of 4 in Scotland, have a degree, and am a (non-RC) christian. I voted Yes for Indy 2014, SNP in UK general election 2015, SNP/Green in the Holyrood Scottish Government election 2016 and am a member of the Scottish Green Party.
    While I would not personally endorse either of the US Democratic and Republican party nominees, I think I feel somewhat less disturbed by the idea of Donald Trump than Hillary Clinton as US President.

  237. Greannach says:

    David Torrance now has a beard. So does Mr Mundell.

  238. Greannach says:

    I don’t think Murdo Fraser has, but he does wear that uniform of 1950s gents outfitter gear. That must mean he is completely normal, and not a bit different from 1950s British man.

  239. Andrew Mclean says:

    Mr G king,

    Yes I was leaning to green for my second or third vote but given Harvey’s disgusting behaviour recently i am with out a second choice candidate, and as far as I am aware Mr Trump is not going to chance his luck in winning a seat as councillor for Airdrie north, he can’t be lucky twice.

    So as a Green Party guy, who would you suggest?

  240. K1 says:

    Get well Andrew…now! 😉

  241. Stu Mac says:


    There’s been a long tradition in Scotland of self-education. In more recent times evening classes and mature university study, in the past self education using libraries (which used to be designed for this, less so today) and sometimes help from trade unions. I met ordinary working guys years ago who forced into early retirement due to industry close down, taught themselves to be expert in history, literature, etc. Whereas some people who get the advantages of a formal education waste it.

    There was a great respect for education in this country though I wonder if there are signs of a kind of anti-intellectualism growing (pushed by the tabloids) which could damage this? Or am I mistaken?

  242. John Munro says:

    I do not wish to sound snobbish or ungracious towards alumni of Aberdeen University but some of them (Are you reading this Messrs Torrance and Fraser?)do seem to have a rather over grand idea of their own educational and intellectual worth. I am a long term SNP voter and independence supporter and surprise, surprise I appear to have rather better academic qualifications from rather more prestigious universities than either of the dynamic duo mentioned above. Surely that cannot be correct. I must be some low education level thicky.

  243. Chang Sha says:

    You don’t need a Scottish equivalent ~ just use shoneen
    It comes from the Irish “Seoinín” ~ which means “Little John” ~ a reference to John Bull {aka England}
    Since Irish & Scots Gaelic are sister languages, it would {I presume} have the exact same meaning in Scots Gaelic

  244. robertknight says:


    What can one say about him that could be safely repeated in the presence of a maiden aunt without causing offense?

    Nothing really…

  245. twathater says:

    I would like to see the first minister highlight this at FM questions , and ask Fraser if this is an opinion that he would be willing to share with Scotland’s citizenry via the MSM, and show everyone that he is willing to debase, denigrate and show total contempt for the hardworking Scots who pay his NOT unsubstantial wages.

    Or is it only Scots who side with his WATP attempts at the introduction of the ulsterisation or sectarianism in Scottish politics who pay his wages,the rest deserve no consideration.

    This individual should be exposed as the divisive, irresponsible charlatan that he is, and censured by the whole of parliament as behaving contrary to behaviour expected of a responsible parliamentarian.

    I firmly believe that the Scottish parliament should introduce a proper RECALL law, unlike the fudged crap of westminster, where our representatives can be held to account by the electorate when they carry on like this divot. I know that’s what elections are for but it means this idiot can carry on collecting wages for the next 4 years whilst spouting this utter drivel

  246. Legerwood says:


    BBC has story on its news site what Ms Sturgeon has been invited to address the Irish Senate during her visit to Dublin later this month.

  247. Andy-B says:

    Murdo Frazer is in my opinion, insignificant at best, Torrance, is a weasel worded hack and second rate writer at best.

    Both men couldn’t tie your shoe laces Rev.

  248. Fred says:

    @ Chang Sha, my Gaelic dictionary says a cunt! 🙂

  249. K1 says:

    Lol Fred 😉

  250. Chang Sha says:

    Ha ha ~ Well that probably describes them just as well ~ but I suspect you’re winding me up
    The word for cunt is pit in both Scots Gaelic & Irish

  251. Rock says:


    “And @ Rock.
    How dare you pontificate on me about my opinions, call me “brainwashed” by “western propaganda”. You don’t live right next door to the old Russian empire/the USSR/modern Russia that wants to be an empire again (England and Russia ought to be friends about this). For nearly 100 years Finland has carefully negotiated every step to keep friendly relations (often contrary to US or UK wishes, and later sometimes even general EU view).”

    How do you know that “He’s got his eyes on the Baltic states, and after that, even Finland.”?

    Because it seems you definitely have been completely taken in by Western propaganda.

    The same sort of UK unionist propaganda which claimed that Scotland would be at the mercy of Russia and North Korea if it became independent and got rid of nuclear weapons.

    Finland has been independent for more than a hundred years. Putin and Russia are not so stupid that they would try to annex Finland.

    Is there a rush in Finland to join NATO?

  252. Fred says:

    @ Chang Sha, wid ah wind ye up? Ah’m familiar with the Gaelic C word & can pronounce it withoot making a C o masel!

  253. Big Jock says:

    Mock grieving over a poppy with a union flag, for a war over 100 years ago. Yep nobody does it quite like the Brits. The same people who are at war with Europe over Brexit and want to stop foreigners. They are not so good at self awareness.

    It’s not just my imagination. Every year poppy mania gets earlier and more in your face. It’s now like Halloween. Next people will be dressing as soldiers and going round houses.

  254. Biggy Jock says:

    Unfortunately you don’t compare like for like statistics for education level. But all the sheep will still follow.

  255. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Unfortunately you don’t compare like for like statistics for education level.”

    Feel free to explain. The comparison was the closest that could be made from the available data, and if anything is overly generous to Fraser and Torrance.

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