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Something smells fishy

Posted on November 29, 2018 by

From today’s Daily Mail:

The headline is, of course, a lie.

The Herald and Scotsman were barely any less dishonest.

Because what the Prime Minister actually “vowed” to do was literally nothing.

Only the Mail, several paragraphs down the story, carries her full revealing quote. We’ve highlighted the key words in red.

“Mrs May said she had rejected EU demands for access to waters to be linked to access to markets during negotiations on the withdrawal agreement and political declaration.

‘It remains our resolute position that there should be no such link. If we cannot reach a new and fair agreement by the end of 2020 then the default is that EU vessels would have no access to our waters, so they have a strong incentive to reach one.'”

In other words, her “tough line” is simply a factual description of the intrinsic, inevitable consequences of failure. If no deal is reached, then without anyone doing anything the UK’s fishing waters will automatically be off-limits to foreign vessels. No “block” will be required, and no action from the PM – it’ll happen all by itself.

Job done, then? Except that such an outcome would be an absolute catastrophe for Scottish fishermen, because the EU would impose brutal export tariffs on all the fish caught there, and most of the fish caught in Scottish waters are sold to the EU.

If the UK wanted that to happen, it wouldn’t be bothering to negotiate over fishing at all, it’d just be telling the EU to take a running jump. But it knows it would be an utter disaster that would wreak carnage not only in the fishing industry but in the entire UK economy – because it would also mean that talks to access the wider EU market, on which UK business depends, had failed.

Theresa May knows fine well that the EU has the UK over a barrel and she has no option but to eventually concede fishing rights – effectively as they are now, or worse – like she’s conceded pretty much everything else. Scotland’s fishermen, having failed to learn the lessons of all the previous times, will be sold out by the Tories again.

And to be fair, May hasn’t told any lies on this occasion (because if nothing else, telling lies requires you to actually answer questions). She merely stated a true fact about a theoretical scenario, knowing that it’s a scenario she can never allow to happen. In enormously misrepresenting what she said, on the other hand, the Scottish media has no such excuse.

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    275 to “Something smells fishy”

    1. Never trust a Tory- NTAT

    2. Peter A Bell says:

      British Nationalists make a big fuss about getting out of the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP). What we don’t hear from the likes of David Mundell is any detail on what is to replace the EU quota system. We know that there will have to be a quota system. We know that this new quota system will continue to involve negotiation with the EU. The UN Convention on the Law of the Sea requires countries sharing maritime borders to jointly manage shared fish stocks. The EU and the UK share more than 100 fish stocks.

      We know that existing independent coastal states such as Greenland and Norway continue to be effectively bound by the CFP. The latter negotiates annually a quota swap just as EU member states do under the CFP. The former institutionalises the CFP quota system in exchange for various concessions.

      All the evidence, then, suggests that the new UK quota system is unlikely to represent a dramatic departure from the CFP. Which leads one to wonder why Mundell and other British Nationalists attach so much importance to getting out of the CFP. They certainly aren’t explaining their reasoning. We can be certain that it has nothing to do with what might best serve Scotland’s economic interests. Mundell has made it abundantly clear that his overriding priority is the preservation of the Union at whatever cost to Scotland and its people – https://peterabell.blog/2018/10/20/something-fishy/

    3. FMQ’s:

      Nicola replying to Jackson Carlaw’s first question on Fishing Rights – wiping the floor with her usual aplomb.

    4. Clootie says:

      A Tory promise again 🙂

      Yet Scottish fisherman still listen to them.

    5. Thepnr says:

      Fishing is devolved and as far as Scottish waters are concerned the responsibility of the Scottish government.

      We will be out of the EU therefore the Scottish government should have a seat at the negotiating table when making any new deal over fishing.

      I know of course that they won’t be unless we become Independent first.

    6. Nicola pointing out that T May yesterday refused to sign the Scottish Fisherman’s Pledge after being accused herself of refusing to sign the pledge.

      Basically restating everything that you can read in the Rev’s article above – spot on Stu.

    7. brewsed says:

      Should we end up with a no-deal Brexit the UK fishing waters would not, as asserted, be off-limits to all foreign fishing vessels because, prior to the UK entering the EEC and prior to the CFP, many fishing vessels from foreign countries had historic fishing rights which would reassert themselves post no-deal Brexit and a challenge to this would fail in international courts.

      So, in effect, the UK has gutted and kippered the fishing industry – who would have guessed?

      http://www.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S5/SB_17-21_Implications_of_Leaving_the_EU-_Fisheries.pdf

      https://www.rse.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/The-Scottish-Fishing-Industry.pdf

    8. Ken500 says:

      More Tory lies. Every word they utter is a lie. Westminster has had control of Scottish/UK fishing. The SNP has not had a look in until recently. They were solving the problems. Higher quotas for using bigger nets. Improving terms and conditions. The multimillionaires fishermen have been overfishing the seas for years and throwing dead fish back. An absolute disgrace. They have to employ foreign labour because the terms and conditions are bad.

      Some people go and vote Tory. They vote for Brexit which will destroy the NE economy the most. How dumb is that?

      Lose your job in the Oil industry because of high Tory taxes. Vote Tory? Farmers losing £Millions of CAP payments. Vote Tory? Scotland as part of the UK gets the lowest payments in the EU. Westminster takes it.

      There are some complete idiots on Nicola’s twitter feed. Daily Mail readers? They haven’t got a clue. Scotland has one of the best education systems in the world. More uni pro rata. 50% uni educated. Colleges and training. 100,000 aprenticeships.

      The Scottish population has stagnated since 1928. Barely changed. Until 2000 Devolution. Increased 0.2 Million. Low unemployment. Westminster has taken £Billions from Scotland illegally and secretly. To fund London S/E. increasing the pop there. Scotland has to pay loan repayments on monies not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Hickley Point and HS2. A complete waste of time and money. Scotland pays for Trident and could pay less for Defence. Tax evasion costs £3Billion. Scotland can borrow very little to grow the economy. The rest of the UK/Westminster borrows and spends what it wants. The Tories have ruined farming, fishing and the Oil sector. Brexit is another disaster.

      Scotland pays more for fuel and energy because it is colder. Despite being in surplus and nearer the source. For parity Scotland should pay 10% less.

    9. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh jeez, it’s that famous self-hijack scene from Blazing Saddles again…

    10. Maolbeatha says:

      I cannot help wondering that if/when we get Independence and continue in the EU/ negotiate a streamlined re-entry into the EU the SNP are not going to have any choice in this either. They will be pressured to allow access to EU boats, and how could they refuse?

      The EU boats are going to have to get access to the waters as they presently do in order for us to stay in or get back in.
      Aren’t they?

      The thought that the fishermen could block EU boats from UK waters via Brexit and still be allowed access to the EU market to sell them never made any sense to anyone but the Fishermen themselves. It never seemed plausible.
      Whomever sold them that idea has a lot to answer for.

    11. Daisy Walker says:

      And who is it exactly, that will patrol and protect Scotland’s and/or the UK’s territorial fishing waters?

      The Royal Navy? With what, a rowing boat and stiff upper lip?

      The remaining fishing fleet – who would do what exactly – to stop/arrest, prosecute or evict in the middle of the deep blue sea – blow them kisses from their boats?

      Aye Right.

    12. call me dave says:

      Aye Jackson Car’crash’ on fishing Q’s.

      The FM battered and fried him and put him in his plaice but was still too kind the floundering idiot. Tories eh! FGS! 🙂

    13. Ken500 says:

      Scottish fishermen were involved with fighting with French fishermen. Trying to fish in the French protected waters. EU rules means fishermen can fish in others negotiated waters. They can fish in Norwegian waters. Half of fish consumed is imported into the UK. Norwegian etc.

      Home ports have exclusive landing and limit rights. 12miles? The Scottish fshermen export the best of the catch to the Continent for premium prices. They suffered when the Euro went down. Made exports dearer. The markets stopped buying so much fish. Langoustines are sent abroad for premium prices. They can’t be bought in Scotland because people will not pay higher prices. Salmon is exported. One of the biggest exports.

      Scotland would be so much better off negotiating it’s own deals, terms and conditions.

    14. Proud Cybernat says:

      Has Mundell resigned yet?

      O/T

      Krishnan Guru-Murthy
      ?
      Verified account

      @krishgm
      33m33 minutes ago

      Whatever happens Channel 4 will want to do The Real Brexit Debate – with the likes of Boris Johnson, Nicola Sturgeon, Chuka Umunna debating the actual options

    15. Ken500 says:

      The UK were using a French navel vessel until very recently. A vessel manufactured without helicopters. No airforce cover. Cameron destroyed the aircraft. Made them redundant and shut bases. Then had to order more. Westminster are a laughing stock. Vessels being built cut from 18 to 3. The trawlers act as look outs at sea. May is delusional. Trying to get Scottish Tories to vote for Brexit Bill. Commit betrayal.

    16. Scott says:

      I note with interest that Chapman MSP is sitting on the front bench today this man wants out of the CAP so I wonder who he thinks will pay the subsidy he receives from the EU when he leaves.
      What a plonker that ex car salesman Carlaw is as someone has already said.

      NTAT.

    17. Luigi says:

      You have to give the BritNat tory press spin machine some cred, folks:

      They really have this misleading headline strategy down to a tee.

    18. Dave Albiston says:

      I am struggling with T May’s logic. In one sentence, she opposes a link between access to markets and access to UK waters. In the next, she says that if there no agreement on access to markets then there will be no access to UK waters.

      Isn’t there a character in Alice in Wonderland who could believe 2 contradictory things at the same time?

    19. geeo says:

      It seems obvious to me, that any those nasty furriners fishing in Greater Engerlunds northern waters, will be introduced to a warhead launched from a, definitely not leased from ‘murica, Trident weapons system….

      This will not only clear pesky furriners out the area, the newly glowing in the dark fashes will be easier to spot for the yoookay fleet to catch!!

      Bwexit bwitain, you know it makes sense….!

      NB: fisheries in Southern Greater Engerlund shall be protected by 2 aircraft carriers armed with 300 Navy personnel, making nairyplane noises and shouting “shoo”!!

      Who dares say treeza has not got a plan ?

    20. Robert Louis says:

      Wullie Rennie asked a wholly disingenuous question at FMQ’s. His hypocrisy stinks, given he refuses to support independence to keep Scotland in the EU.

      However, he did raise an interesting point. The FM has said that if staying in the CU and SM is an option at westminster then the SNP would vote for that. However, did the SNP really think that through? You see, IF such a scenario evolves, and the SNP vote for it, then the SNP will be voting FOR brexit.

      Now, I understand that the FM sees CU and SM as the least worst option, but still, it effectively paints the SNP into a corner on the issue of brexit. The SNP, who is wholly against brexit, and Scots who are wholly against brexit, would have to sit and watch as SNP MP’s of their own free will effectively vote to impose brexit on Scotland.

      I understand the original compromise offer, but I do think the SNP are teetering on the brink of a major mistake with this. Think about it, in such a scenario after brexit, unionists could quite legitimately say well, the SNP ignored Scots and voted for it, so it’s partly their fault. Scotland voted against brexit, and the SNP will vote for it at westminster. How would the Scottish public view that? and more importantly, where would that leave the SNP and indy movement?

      It is a dangerous path the FM is heading down, and I do wonder if her advisors and the wider SNP appreciate the risks. Too much obsession with saving England from itself, when that is simply not the FM’s business.

      I think the same is true of a so-called second vote, where Scots would be ignored AGAIN.

    21. Golfnut says:

      Scotland would be compelled to follow EU regs on fishing and quotas, yes we would have a seat at the table, we could more than likely get a better deal, as we we would undoubtedly with agriculture.

      The real benefit to the Scottish fishing industry, would be getting rid of the cabal, which is 5 families with 45% of fishing licences.

    22. Shug says:

      I struggle to be sympathetic tothe fishermen. It is natural selection at its best and soon they will be extinct despite having the steel workers, ship yards, coal, car and general manufacturing examples before them. All of whome believed the labour and Conservative promises in the past

    23. Shug says:

      I am also fed up with nationalist spitting out never trust a tory. What you would trust labour
      Now your having a laugh

    24. galamcennalath says:

      Excellent article, Rev Stu.

      There may be an EURef2, there will be a GE sooner or later, there will be an IndyRef2, and there will be a Holyrood election.

      The NE and particularly those associated with fishing have inexplicably nailed their colours to the mast of London Centric Tories. The area and fishing are the primary battlefield for the Tories in Scotland. Brexit, broken promises and commitments and they are becoming back-footed.

      This whole area, geographical and commercial, is critical to both sides.

      By calling out their hypocrisy and deceit, they will get knocked back.

    25. call me dave says:

      Jings!

      Embarrassment as Corbyn likely to snub Theresa in BBC debate as he says STV better option.

      Shurley someone in Tory party should have checked first I mean they do plan ahead don’t they.. Brexit for example. 🙁

      1-0 to Jeremy and he’s a no hoper too.

    26. Macart says:

      Answers on a postcard as to where and how what’s left of Scotland’s fishing industry will sell its wares.

      Personally, I like eating fish. Eating it seven days a week and twice on a Friday (even if I have any income to spare after Brexit hits) might be a bit of a push though. I’m guessing most folk will feel the same and be in the same… boat.

      Ditto our farming industry. How will they compete with cheap overseas imports and how will they market their produce overseas in Brexit UK? Do both the fishing and farming communities believe UK gov will subsidise their industries? How will our food producers cope with the selling of Brand Scotland down the wossiname?

      In light of both Scotgov’s and the UK treasury’s reports and the statement from the governor of the BoE, do they really think or believe that the cash will be there for them? That people on heavily constrained incomes will even think about buying good fresh, home grown/caught produce?

      Might be it’s about time they started thinking about those things.

    27. Giving Goose says:

      Marcia,

      Brilliant link. And if this is just a tiny sample of opinion it does say an awful lot!

    28. Davie Oga says:

      1:20 pm

      No need to worry good chap. We’re British and special.

    29. Doug_Bryce says:

      Common Fishing Policy is always going to be controversial (in or out of EU).

      The basic problem is that fish migrate. Without cross border co-operation then how do we manage stocks ?

      The idea the problem will be less contentious once out of EU is another brexit unicorn.

    30. wull2 says:

      WM wants to sell out Scottish fishermen, lets do it first and stay in the EU for the benefit of Scottish people.

      Do the people of Scotland want to stay in the EU YES

    31. Thepnr says:

      @Marcia

      How refreshing 🙂

      Some good honest reporting for a change albeit from another country.

    32. Sinky says:

      Scotland, our First Minster and third largest party at Westminster ignored in “nationwide” Metropolitan TV debate on Brexit.

      This CNN News report on Theresa May’s visit to Scotland is a must watch. Stay to the end for significant change of mind.

      https://twitter.com/lumi_1984/status/1068124253579550720

    33. When the BBC, ITV, or any other british nationalist media are not involved in the reporting, we get more of the truth.

      https://twitter.com/lumi_1984/status/1068124253579550720

    34. gordoz says:

      Why does fishing fleet go along with this line
      As if they will get soething atvtge

    35. gordoz says:

      Why does fishing fleet go along with this line
      As if they will get something at the end like control of waters?
      Why are they so supportive of Tories ?

    36. Marcia says:

      James Caithness – you are a bit late 🙂

    37. Scotspatriot says:

      I’m a quiet kind of guy. Enjoy, in the most part, the posts that appear on here. In fact I confess to be addicted to the site……well done Stu and all who contribute.
      A wee question to one and all . Am I the only person who is seething with rage, with regards to the way Scotland is being treated by the Westminster Gov ?

      If I am, I’ll apologise now and return to my bunker !

    38. Famous15 says:

      CNN on Theresa’s visit to Skatland was brilliant but all it took was honest reporting.

      Me? I wus gobsmacked.

    39. wull2 says:

      Scotspatriot You are not the only one.

      All we ask, is to convert even one person to YES and have done your part.

    40. Sinky says:

      More than a quarter of the United Kingdom’s fishing quota is in the hands of a tiny group of the country’s wealthiest families, an Unearthed investigation has found.

      https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/

      Also reminds of the Black Fish scandal involving extended family of leading one time Tory candidate.

    41. Auld Rock says:

      Scot Patriot,

      No my friend you are not alone, all of us feel much the same way, that is apart from our usual suspects, the BritNat Trolls.

    42. Scotspatriot

      You are not alone mate I have high blood pressure due to the manner Scotland is being ignored and humiliated by the Regime.

      The most annoying thing is many fellow Scots just shrug their shoulders they don’t get it.

      We as a people could sort the situation out, if it wasn’t for the proud Scots buts.

    43. galamcennalath says:

      CNN original. Wow.

      https://t.co/RYZ1uoDeVQ

    44. Luigi says:

      What people in Scotland, hopefully now realise, is just how important Scotland’s resources are to the UK AND the EU.

      The EU would bend over backwards to keep Scotland onboard. Worth banking for when “negotiations” with rUK get extremely difficult.

    45. Frank Lynch says:

      The whole Scottish media are Unionist whores.

    46. galamcennalath says:

      This has an excellent embedded video of the Sky News review of the National being banned …

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17264071.the-nationals-front-page-goes-viral-after-theresa-mays-trumpesque-ban/

      Thatcher took us half way, May will take us all the way. 🙂

    47. Ghillie says:

      My sincerest hope and wish is that our fisher folk from all over Scotland are reading this here today.

      May is lying.

      Often as much by what she obstinately refuses to say.

      Scotland is waking.

    48. Luigi says:

      James Caithness says:

      29 November, 2018 at 1:36 pm

      When the BBC, ITV, or any other british nationalist media are not involved in the reporting, we get more of the truth

      https://twitter.com/lumi_1984/status/1068124253579550720

      The BritNat media do seem to be on a very tight leash at the moment – even by their low standards. I wonder how many threats, knighthoods and other trinkets have been promised over the past month. 🙂

    49. galamcennalath says:

      Luigi says:

      The BritNat media do seem to be on a very tight leash at the moment

      Everyone must know the UK is entering its end game. They must believe there is still a chance to save it.

      But save what? Unless Brexit is stopped, the UK will be permanently damaged and hopefully dissolve.

      I live in hope that at some point consensus opinion will recognise it’s all over. It will be like a dam bursting. We will see it first in the foreign media. It would be fantastic to believe that CNN report is a harbinger!

    50. galamcennalath says:

      Sinky says:

      Sign up for a REAL BREXIT DEBATE

      Signed.

      A balanced debate would be Corbyn and May for Brexit, Nicola and Cable against.

      A lot of the present Brexit chaos can be laid at the feet of Labour and Corbyn. Starting with EURef campaigning when Labour didn’t oppose Brexit robustly.

      Some on the left have seen the EU as an organisation which hampers their idea of socialism which would entail heavy state intervention. I have always disagreed with that view because for me it is much more important to prevent the far right’s agenda of deregulation and weak individual rights.

      The far right is a clear and present danger for ordinary folks. Brexit is all about implementing the the über right’s ideas.

      Labour should have, and should be opposing this. Instead some idiots in their ranks dream of a socialist UK outside the EU. They need to focus on where the real threat is coming from. But they haven’t.

    51. Scottish Steve says:

      The fishermen mostly voted Brexit and Tory so they deserve all they get. Let them cry their salty tears. It wont stir my sympathies.

    52. Scott says:

      Remember when this happened with Scottish Fishermen in CFP so what would happen if out of the EU.

      Seventeen Scottish skippers and a processing firm have received fines totalling almost £1m for their part in the UK’s biggest fraud involving illegal catches of fish.

      The men had admitted they were able to sell vast quantities of mackerel and herring by evading EU quotas.

    53. So the gov., of the b.o.e. Tells us all his forecasts for a no deal this is the man who’s every forecast the last time were proved wrong,and he thinks anyone will heed anything he says if my financial advisor had got it so wrong the first time there would have been no second time I,would,have sacked him and this is the man they have in charge of their Bank of England ???

    54. Nana says:

      BBC newsnight caught faking

      This lady playing “Reverend Lynn” is actually an actress called Marina Hayter (stage name?) who is a professional TV talk show guest. In other words, she was hired by @BBCNewsnight to say she backed May’s plan.
      see here
      https://twitter.com/chrischester69/status/1068153969162289152

      and here
      https://twitter.com/batanball/status/1068139684579221504

    55. boris says:

      Balfour warned parliament that the Jews “remained a people apart, who held a religion differing from the vast majority of their fellow countrymen, and only inter-married among themselves”.

      https://caltonjock.com/2018/11/29/the-zionist-agenda-and-the-creation-of-modern-israel-2/

    56. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says:

      she was hired by @BBCNewsnight to say she backed May’s plan.

      Wow. If true, a small event like this could be a game changer.

      But to be devil’s advocate… could she have been hired by someone else and wangled her way onto the show?

    57. Breeks says:


      Robert Louis says:
      29 November, 2018 at 12:58 pm
      Wullie Rennie asked a wholly disingenuous question at FMQ’s. His hypocrisy stinks, given he refuses to support independence to keep Scotland in the EU.

      However, he did raise an interesting point. The FM has said that if staying in the CU and SM is an option at westminster then the SNP would vote for that. However, did the SNP really think that through? You see, IF such a scenario evolves, and the SNP vote for it, then the SNP will be voting FOR brexit.

      Been saying it for while Robert, but the uncomfortable truth is the SNP’s red line policy of staying in the Single Market IS a Soft Brexit option, and furthermore, it also relies upon the similar cherry picking principle which the delusional UK government gets castigated for. (Although in fairness Scotland would always be more amenable to the European direction of travel – but its still a bespoke Soft Brexit being presented to Scotland as the optimal result). – But not for ardent Europhiles like me it isn’t.

      More recently, both Nicola and Mike Russell have subtly moved their position closer to at least now occasionally mentioning the Independence option, (hallelujah!) but for 18 months after the Brexit result, Plan A at Bute House has been a Soft Brexit option all the way.

      Why do you think I’ve been so scathing of the strategy? For the SNP to get its optimum Single Market access, Brexit has to be a reality, and that’s when my head explodes like a pressure cooker gone bad.

      I didn’t vote Remain for a consolation prize Soft Brexit. I voted Remain for NO Brexit, and staying in the EU – period.

    58. Nana says:

      @Gala

      There is usually two sides, went looking and sure enough some are saying she is a vicar? I guess with the bbc anything is possible, we know how they regularly have plants on QT.

      It seems she has a ministry of sorts ‘Seeds for wealth’

      https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1068170183846649856

    59. t42 says:

      November sees a secret sweet deal for bankers, and a bad deal for fishing communities.

      The fishing communities never got a mention for their sacrifice at the lord mayors banquet:

      https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-to-the-lord-mayors-banquet-12-november-2018

      “British and European officials are playing down reports that a Brexit deal has been reached for banks that would provide access to the single market after the U.K. leaves the bloc. The pound pared gains.

      The European Union’s chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier said in a tweet on Thursday that the bloc was “ready” to have “close regulatory dialogue” with the U.K., but dismissed the reporting of a deal on banks’ access to the single market: “Misleading press articles today on #Brexit & financial services.”

      Three U.K. officials also described an article in the Times newspaper in London as unsubstantiated. One EU official also denied that any agreement had been reached that would allow “guaranteed” access to banks based in Britain.”

    60. Hamish100 says:

      Breeks- option is brexit . Norwegian option or EU
      If you cant get one you choose the other
      Norway predates brexit by decades so a bit disingenuous there.

    61. Liz g says:

      Breeks 4.01
      But a “soft” UK Brexit… is still a Brexit, as you said you’re self.
      So the mandate is still intact?
      Doesn’t matter that the Scottish politicians influenced the kind of Brext that happens.In a way that’s their job,while we are still in the Union.
      What matters is that Scotland’s democratic deficit is now undeniable.
      As to a second Brext referendum… That was always a possibility,in fact some of us suspected that they would pull that one anyway especially if Nicola called our indyref too soon.The risk on that is really Westminster s,should Scotland’s remain vote go up and England still votes to leave.
      Now I hate that its dependent on what Westminster does too..
      But we are where we are and we cannot deny Scotland voted to stay in 2014 & Scotland hasn’t as yet shifted itself to change that.. Its no Nicooa that’s the problem here..
      Although having said that… I can see a shift in the confidence of our politicians,and the underlying buzz seems to be around the moves Westminster will make to stop us,not convince us,but but use political manoeuvres to circumvent the vote.
      Which seems to me to be telling us we have the numbers..
      And also don’t forget we are still waiting on the Court case to publish.
      We should be asking at every turn where’s our Judgement????

    62. Andy-B says:

      I have to say I have no sympathy for the greedy gullible fishermen, who vote Tory and then expect representation from them.

    63. Thepnr says:

      @Nana

      It doesn’t matter who this woman might be, the whole story is simply astonishing. Oh dear, could it be any worse for the BBC where “ordinary people” are always welcome to give their opinion?

    64. Terence callachan says:

      In the 2014 Scottish independence referendum the YES side would have won hands down if it wasn’t for English people voting NO.Scotland has been colonised by English people who will always vote against Scottish independence it doesn’t matter where they live even those living in Scotland will vote against Scottish independence.
      So called English Scots for yes a tiny group of English people who for various reasons such as having a partner who is Scottish or a dislike of the right wing Westminster government did vote YES in 2014 but they are a tiny minority of the English people in Scotland and a nonetheless influential group which have led us to believe that their small number of votes is so valuable that we must let the hundreds of thousands of NO voting English people have a vote simply because they live here.
      Most of them will return to live in england it is not Scotland or its people or its future that they care about it is their own lives now and most of all their own country England that they care about.
      The most important democratic decision that should have been made in Scotland is that English people no matter where they live should not ever be allowed to vote in a Scottish independence referendum simply because it is their country that controls Scotland now .
      If we continue to allow English people to vote on Scottish independence you can kiss goodbye to independence forever because Westminster will keep on awarding jobs to English people and contracts to Westminster supporting businesses forever ,they will ensure that there are always enough English people living and working in Scotland who will vote for their own country England to keep control of Scotland.
      There are laws that allow English people living in Scotland to vote in local council elections and general elections and that is right and proper because those elections are about local national and international governance but a referendum on Scotlands future should not be open to English people, it’s just plain wrong.
      I hear some people say that if people from other countries who live in Scotland can vote in a Scottish independence referendum then so should English people but I say no that that on the grounds that those people from other countries are NOT from a country that controls Scotland.
      English people ARE, and that’s the difference.
      I hear English people say but my aunt or my mum or dad are Scottish wouldn’t that exclude me ?
      I say it’s simple to determine if you are Scottish ,passport rules already exist for determining what your nationality is so you can use those rules to determine if you would qualify for a Scottish passport under present UK rules.
      Simple.
      If you used current UK passport rules and applied them to English people applying for a Scottish passport nine out of ten English people living in Scotland would not qualify and that’s because they are English ,born in England parents English end of.

    65. galamcennalath says:

      May saying an EURef2 would mean unpicking her ‘deal’?

      Why? Surely an EURef2 would actually be about simply staying in the EU?

      Blinkered? In denial? Or just lost the plot?

      https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1129/1014077-brexit/

    66. Nana says:

      @Thepnr

      Indeed, it looks bad for the bbc. Shame 🙂

      Re Brexit

      MSPs set to vote against Brexit deal
      http://archive.is/WuHkH

    67. Cubby says:

      Bertie Armstrong is your classic Britnat. Bertie (no surrender) from N. Ireland sells out his own people (Scottish fishermen) for personal reward.

      A lifetime in the Lords for Bertie is on the horizon for a career in lying on behalf of the British state. Just another Britnat doing anything to stay on the gravy train.

      How dim are some (note I said some) of these fishermen. Putting their trust in the Tories even after they sold them out in the transitional arrangement. Some people never learn and others are just too busy ironing their sash to care about anything else.

      I used to wonder if the farmers or the fishermen were the silliest to trust theTories but the fishermen win hands down.

    68. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      boris @ 15:49,

      F*** off with your o/t diversions, you bandwagon-jumping parasite.

    69. Referendum1707 says:

      The fishermen of the NE must be inbred morons, there can be no other explanation for their breathtaking stupidity and desire for self harm.

      Anything less than a point blank refusal by the SNP to accept ANY form of brexit means they’ll have sold us out.

    70. farrochie says:

      UK countries do not have a sufficient number of fishing vessels to catch the full quota for North Sea, Irish Sea and other areas accessed by the international fishing community. See map:

      https://ec.europa.eu/fisheries/sites/fisheries/files/docs/body/fishing_areas_en.pdf

      I see no evidence that the UK government is going to invest in the vessels or processing or transport infrastructure to support a vastly increased landing of fish in UK or Scottish ports.

      UK will have no alternative but to share the quota with “foreign” vessels. From a transitional arrangement, this will become a permanent arrangement closely linked (as Peter A. Bell writes above) to the marketing of fish products in EU countries.

      I fear that Mundell and Armstrong are continuing to mislead the public and the fishermen.

      In later years, as a Third Country, the UK will be forced to comply with the EU increasingly stringent fish quality standards, but will have no say in those standards.

    71. Colin Alexander says:

      Breeks said:

      “I didn’t vote Remain for a consolation prize Soft Brexit. I voted Remain for NO Brexit, and staying in the EU – period.”

      The SNP’s mandate, their contract with the sovereign electorate was EU membership or Indyref2.

      The SNP and FM reneged on that promise by going for the SNP’s preferred type of UK’s EU exit. As for indyref?. We were told Autumn 2018 is when we’d know about Indyref2. Almost December and no Indyref date announced.

      Win or lose, if the SNP don’t deliver on an independence referendum or independence mandate at an election by 2021, I think I’m not the only one who will be looking for a new route to independence that does not involve voting for a dithering, impotent SNP puppet Scot Govt with their worthless red lines.

    72. manandboy says:

      One of the lessons from the history of liberation from oppression, is that the path to freedom may contain a ‘Red Sea’ moment. Though overwhelmingly daunting, such a path offers not only liberation, but the end of your oppressors.

      So let the English Ruling Classes pursue the escaping Scottish colonists, with the shambolic and Surkov-inspired May-botic up front.
      The raging waters now flowing through angry and divided England, and NI, have yet to pass under Westminster’s weakened bridge. Disaster and defeat will then engulf them, leaving them dead in the water. Hail Caesar!.

    73. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I didn’t vote Remain for a consolation prize Soft Brexit. I voted Remain for NO Brexit, and staying in the EU – period.”

      As the FM said in an interview on CH4 last night, she is trying to get the best Brexit deal for the entire UK because she knows that after indy, it is in Scotland’s best interests that Brexit does not totally decimate the rUK becaue they will still be an important post indy market for us. So yes – get UK the best deal for Scotland (i.e. post indy Scotland) and do that while we are in UK and can still influence things (I know, I know).

      The FM is (at least) two chess moves ahead of the rest of us.

    74. Cubby says:

      Nana@3.47pm

      I actually saw that Newsnight programme live and thought at the time there was something strange about that woman. She was gushing with praise for the Maybot in a way that I have never seen from anyone on the TV. She tried to dominate the debate.

      Fraudulent TV and propaganda abounds in the U.K. Sadly it is not a surprise. The BBC Is a corrupt organisation.

    75. Clootie says:

      The pastor from “The ministry seeds of wealth”. An American based outfit by the looks of it.
      A pastor who preaches greed is good supports the Tories…who would have thought it.

      I was thinking of that Phil Collins video mocking American on line evangelical millionaires.

      However the real story is the BBC caught again fixing the audience.

    76. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      The FM is (at least) two chess moves ahead

      …. and let’s hope the BritNats keep thinking the game is draughts 🙂

    77. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@4.58pm

      You might be considered a genuine independence supporter if even one or your posts was not slagging off the SNP. Who likes to slag off the SNP all the time BRITNATS. Lying Britnats.

    78. t42 says:

      Well well, the establishment trolls on overtime today:
      Anti english, anti jew, anti fishermen, all out in force. They’re in full panic mode along with the establishment press.

    79. Thepnr says:

      One article from Wings in the past that is worth reading again and even more worth reading now if you never saw it first time around is this one.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/ruths-fishy-friends/

      Now the main topics of interest in the article are Bertie Armstrong but in particular a fisherman by the name of John Buchan of Peterhead.

      He is no ordinary fisherman and no friend of those that are.

      I have no way of knowing whether this gentleman is a member of the Buchan family that control Lunar Fishing but there is a director of that name in the company.

      https://tinyurl.com/ya2l2s2q

      Greenpeace in their investigation into fishing in the UK found that the Buchan family are one of the 5 families that are in control of most of the fish quota in Scotland and in fact have the highest single ownership of quota in the UK.

      Alexander Buchan and family are ranked 804 in the 2018 Sunday Times Rich List, with an estimated net worth of £147m. The family’s Peterhead-based Lunar Fishing Company owns or controls 8.9% of the UK’s quota holdings (739,153 FQAs), making it the biggest quota holder in the UK.

      https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/

      Before you might read any of the links, read the Wings article first then tell me why any of us should have any sympathy at all for the plight of the “fishermen” who are really running a monopoly and screwing the legitimate and real fishermen of Scotland. Particularly the small boats who keep our coastal towns alive.

      The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation and Bertie Armstrong are there to represent a very small minority or very rich people and not to represent the interests of fishing at all.

      No surprise then that they all support the Tories and Ruth Davidson.

    80. galamcennalath says:

      Clootie says:

      BBC caught again fixing the audience

      … again and again. Either that, or they are being infiltrated knowing or unknowingly.

      The woman has been on other shows, allege folks on twitter. And we all know of the QT plants. Also, there are the ‘academics’ and think tank representatives who get passed of as being impartial and expert, when they are actually highly partisan.

      It’s either by design or by incompetence, plants in audiences. Either way it looks bad for a big organisation like the BBC. Whether it’s manipulation or the BBC itself is being manipulated, doesn’t matter. Any organisation which took its credibility seriously wouldn’t let it happen.

    81. Nana says:

      @Cubby
      I didn’t see it when aired, I don’t watch the beeb and stopped paying the licence after 2014.

      Good thread here re vicargate as it’s being called

      The serious point about #VicarGate is that Newsnight billed someone in a dog collar as a Vicar, which most people take to mean “Ordained in the Church of England” (i.e. as opposed to a Minister, Priest, etc), when in fact they were watching someone apparently self-ordained.
      https://twitter.com/GuitarMoog/status/1068181253432717314

      Also some pointing out how few pro EU people appear on the bbc. How many times did they give Farage a platform?
      https://twitter.com/juliegirling/status/1068176470831505408

      Here’s the hashtag for anyone wanting to see what people are saying about it all
      https://twitter.com/hashtag/vicargate

    82. galamcennalath says:

      @Nana

      IMO the BBC created Farage. If they hadn’t kept giving him disproportionate coverage, he and his ideas would have stayed on the loony fringe.

      So, what is it with the BBC and their obsession with the far right?

      They have certainly never given the far left the same exposure.

      And, if course they go out of their way to fail to cover mainstream Scottish middle of the road politics!

    83. robertknight says:

      What? Yoon press telling porkies in order to try to big-up credentials of the Yookay’s pathetic, incompetent and ineffectual PM?

      Is this even news-worthy on here these days?

      Nothing to see here folks but yet more Yoon MSM pish, move along….

    84. Gary45% says:

      When will the gullible of Scotland realise that the Tories “red and blue” have NO INTEREST in Scotland, a “Scottish Seat” has always been the first step to feathering their own nest in WM.
      Treeeza’s latest ploy is even more brazen than the usual “Look at the shiny, shiny while they pick your pocket. The utter contempt that has been shown to Scotland has been picked by most of the worlds news sources, and still the YOON media ignore us.
      If Scotland buys this shit yet again, HELL MEND THEM.
      Will we go down in history as a country of thick, inbred morons, or will we have the balls to rise to the challenge?
      Its up to you.

    85. Robert Louis says:

      Thepnr at 530pm,

      I think what you have pointed out by the wealthy familes who own the fishing quotas in Scotland is the most important point to have come out of all the attention on Scotland’s fishing rights. As you correcrtly point out, it is hardly surprising that families on the ‘rich list’ vote Tory and back Tory ideals.

      I think the break up of these fishing rights is something which the Scottish Government needs to really start taking an interest in.

      Most folks (as I did) imagine hardy souls with their boat and their workers going out to sea, on an individual basis, but the reality is very, very different.

      This isn’t just a bit ‘fishy, it absolutely stinks. Maybe the Tories will come to regret making such a hoo ha about fishing rights in Scotland. We know now.

    86. Collie says:

      Regards BBC and UKIP,,

      I remember the elections came around for the European Parliament and BBC Scotland gave that arse of a UKIP rep hour after hour of valuable air time,, so much so that he actually got elected as a Scottish MEP.

      He’s that well known and done so much for Scotland that I can’t even remember his name.

      But BBC Scotland definitely influenced the outcome of those European elections.

    87. Ottomanboi says:

      @Breeks
      As you know the SNP was the largest Scottish party at Westminster by seats and votes in 2015.
      Did zilch with it. Next election lost seats to Tories. The rest is incompetence. Think the SNP under this weak, virtue signaling leadership is kaputt as a political force, Brexit or no. UK sympathisers Sturgeon & friends have screwed things up. As strategists they lack imagination and political courage. Seems politicians, regardless of party, do stink!
      Scotland needs an alternative to this impotent crew. But doubt the citizens have the balls to offer one.
      Signing off! For ever……

    88. yesindyref2 says:

      When it comes to exposing the bluster of the Brexiteers and the no wheels on my wagon wheeler-dealering of the UK Gov unably headed by May, it really is like shooting fish in a barrel.

    89. Colin alexander says:

      Cubby

      Brexit could be the game changer, the event that ends the Union, and the SNP are trying hard to prevent that from happening.

      I’m bored with the false equations of:

      voting SNP = voting for indy and
      If you support indy = keep voting SNP.

      Unfortunately, that is partially false equations repeatedly peddled on Wings.

      The SNP achieved 50% of the popular vote and 56 out of 59 MP seats in 2015. Indy didn’t happen. Nothing happened, except Scotland got ripped off again and again and again. Voting SNP achieved nothing for Scotland.

      Then: your assumption that if a person is critical of the SNP, that makes them a unionist.

      I’m complaining that I have not been able to vote for independence again since 2014 despite the mandate for indyref2 being there since 2016.

      I want the chance to vote for independence. The SNP have, so far, prevented me from doing that. The SNP are too busy defending the economic basis of the Union.

      rUK may well be a future customer of a theoretical indy Scotland. They would also be our major rivals and CURRENTLY are our dominating colonial masters who have done and will continue to rob Scotland of democracy and prosperity if it enriches and empowers the rUK at our expense.

      AFTER we are independent is when we should work with rUK for our mutual enrichment, not enriching rUK at the cost of our independence and sovereignty.

      The SNP have put the Union before independence.

      If the SNP succeed in keeping the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union there will be no vote for independence.

    90. Dave Albiston says:

      Proud Cybernat@5:11

      Well said, PC. Nicola is First Minister and represents all the people of Scotland. The majority voted to stay in the UK in 2014. Although the majority voted to stay in the EU in 2016, a substantial number voted leave.

      Nicola is trying to find a compromise that will attempt to balance staying in the UK while enjoying the benefits of the EU. When IndyRef2 comes along she will be able to claim she has made every effort to find a deal that best suits the people of Scotland but there is now no alternative to independence.

    91. yesindyref2 says:

      @Peter A Bell
      Jings, that got me going, and I give up looking at the vast number of UNCLOS Articles that address the EEZ and fishing. Here’s just one, and not even all of it:

      Article 63
      Stocks occurring within the exclusive economic zones of two or more coastal States or both within the exclusive economic zone and in an area beyond and adjacent to it
      1. Where the same stock or stocks of associated species occur within the exclusive economic zones of two or more coastal States, these States shall seek, either directly or through appropriate subregional or regional organizations, to agree upon the measures necessary to coordinate and ensure the conservation and development of such stocks without prejudice to the other provisions of this Part.

      2. Where the same stock or stocks of associated species occur both within the exclusive economic zone and in an area beyond and adjacent to the zone, the coastal State and the States fishing for such stocks in the adjacent area shall seek, either directly or through appropriate subregional or regional organizations, to agree upon the measures necessary for the conservation of these stocks in the adjacent area.

      Article 64
      Highly migratory species
      1. The coastal State and other States whose nationals fish in the region for the highly migratory species listed in Annex I shall cooperate directly or through appropriate international organizations with blah blah blaj

      http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf

      Of course, the UK could turn its back on UNCLOS, in which case the sanctions could include but not be restricted to:
      1. Not allowing submarine access to international waters or even transiting other countries EEZs and territorial waters
      2. Not allowing surface transition
      3. Removal of all undersea cables

      Umm, complete isolation.

      Hello? Anybody out there? HELLO WORLD!

    92. sassenach says:

      Ottomanboi says: “Signing off! For ever……”

      Aye, richt!

    93. Terence callachan says:

      Don’t blame the SNP
      No point calling a referendum on Scottish independence until all the facts are known.

      Theresa May fooled everyone by saying she was a remainer she definitely was not and never had been a remainer she is a full on brexiter so is Corbyn.
      So we are going to have a debate ? yes they are calling it a debate
      between a brexiter and a brexiter ?
      or if you are a believer in Theresa May
      between a remainer who is acting on behalf of the brexiters and a brexiter ?
      Only Englands Westminster political charade could come up with that and to make matters worse there are so many English people in the media down south saying they like Theresa Mays new feisty approach visiting parts of the UK to get her message across ,that would be the message that nobody is really clear about what the hell is going to happen to our lives I suppose.

      As a Scot born in Scotland with Scottish parents I object to English people who were not born in Scotland who’s parents are English voting in a Scottish independence referendum.
      I lived in England for years but I recognise I never ever had a right to vote in a referendum on Englands future.
      I lived in Northern Ireland for years but I recognise I never ever had a right to vote on Northern Ireland’s future
      Like wise I can say I lived in Germany for years and libya but the notion that I had any right to vote in a referendum on the independence or future of those countries is just crazy.

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, I think Bertie Armstrong should Ask Jeeves about UNCLOS.

      There’s a joke in there somewhere, damned if I can find it.

    95. call me dave says:

      Ha! Ha!

      Of course the link

      BERTIE Wooster and JEEVES (shimmering into the room with the plate of kedgeree))

      Great books from the past from P.J. 🙂

    96. geeo says:

      David Albiston.

      SNP won 60% of ALL Scottish seats in 2017, ALL THE OTHER parties only managed 40% of seats.

      Was that 40% ‘substantial’ ?

      Not really huh!

      Why do you highlight a 38% leave vote as ‘substantial’ yet completely gloss over the 45% YES vote ?

      Was the 45% YES VOTE not ‘substantial’, and if it was, why did you not highlight it as such, instead choosing to describe a much lesser vote as ‘substantial’?

      Agenda.

      Much.

    97. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2

      Are you ignoring my post on UDI in the previous thread or just not seen it. Or do you agree with my post?

    98. Artyhetty says:

      Just watched clip of BBC news, twitter, about downturn in GDP re Brexit, guy said it would be equivalent to ‘losing whole of Scotland’s output, ie £200Billions’.

      Hmm, sounds like a lot, but is even that realistic? It probably comes nowhere near the real figure re Scotland’s ‘output’ if Scotland’s resources were included in actual ‘output’ figures, and not being plundered by the Westminster London treasury.

      Still, it’s out there now, that £30 odd billion ‘block grant’ must be saving the Westminster London treasury quite a packet! Sneaky, stealing troughers, the Britnats, always have been. Grant, oh aye, Scotland’s been plundered and pillaged from, and they call a few £billion a ‘grant’.

      Tragic for Scotland’s people and communities, and as a country, as a ‘whole’. Absolute disgrace.

    99. Was speaking to an associate who works in a large bank.

      He knows a bit about finance, banking, economics and all the sort of stuff that I don’t understand.

      I asked him to explain where we are regarding Brexit and to keep it simple to allow a daftie to understand.

      He simplified it as” we reverse the whole thing or we are all pretty much f**ked”.

      Plain talker my friend.

    100. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby
      My reply posted 43 minutes before your post here.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/braveheart-or-something/comment-page-1/#comment-2412549

    101. Graeme says:

      @ Ottomanboi

      I feel your pain and I think many in the YES movement feel it also and maybe you’re right maybe the SNP could have played their cards better but they’re not the problem the problem is the 55% antiscots who voted No in 2014 many of whom would do so again given the chance.

      I am also disillusioned but I have to admit were a million miles closer to independence today than we’ve ever been since 1707 and we have the SNP to thank for that.

      No they’re not perfect and yes they make mistakes but they’re up against a brutal, corrupt & powerful regime, nonetheless they’ve got us this far and I’m sure they’ll get us over the line

      Have faith

    102. Artyhetty says:

      Re: Terence Callachan@6.38

      Correct, blaming the SNP is negative and will not do Scotland any good at all right now. They really are between a rock and a hard place, it’s not a choice it’s a very situation to somehow try to negotiate their way around. The Britnats have all the levers of money and power we have to rememver that as well.

      Regards people from England voting on Scotland’s future, in Scotland. I would definitely give up my vote if I thought not allowing English people in Scotland to vote re Indy, would secure a yes result. Not sure exactly who can vote, there was a consultation on it some time ago. But, we need 16/17 year olds and EU citizens to have the vote, that is where the UKgov may try to block a our chances of a yes result next time?

    103. Artyhetty says:

      Meant difficult situation. Need my dinner.

    104. Cactus says:

      Five hours now remaining to go international citizens.

      Get yer saltires ready!

      Scotland X 🙂

    105. yesindyref2 says:

      @Artyhetty
      What I found was quite a lot of English YES people saying they didn’t think they had the right to vote on Scotland’s future. I did try to perusade them that as they lived here, they had absolutely as much right to vote as anyone else who lives here.

    106. Cubby says:

      FM’s Questions today.

      I wouldn’t buy a car from Carlaw but I would’nt let Leonard or Rennie even wash my car. Can someone please remove the kids trampoline that Leonard stands on – it keeps making me feel seasick as he bounces up and down.

      The highlight for me was the deathly silence from Labour and the look on their faces when the FM pointed out that Labours schools PFI schemes in 1998 Labour signed a capital value deal for £65m total cost to taxpayer cost will be £314m. £13.3m per annum cost to taxpayer.

      Labour then back to asking Scotgov to do something about areas not devolved.

    107. Proud Cybernat says:

      Labour then back to asking Scotgov to do something about areas not devolved.

      FM has this covered now. Every time SLabour or Tories resort to questions on reserved matters she asks them to unite with her to get the powers from WM to make it happen thereby taking the opportunity each and every time they try this deceitful tactic to show the Scots population just how powerless the Scots parliament really is, with most of the powers still in WM.

    108. geeo says:

      @graeme.

      Wasting time with ottomanboi, bats for the anti indy side.

    109. yesindyref2 says:

      The important news from Holyrood today is this:

      Scottish Parliament to vote against Theresa May’s Brexit deal

      That’s the SNP, Greens, Labour and LibDems, united against the Tories.

      What we have in common brings us closer, and it’s why there’s expected to be no mention of any alternatives in the Motion, just a condemnation of the deal, and the only alternative of no-deal.

    110. Breeks says:


      Galamcennalath says:
      29 November, 2018 at 5:50 pm
      @Nana

      IMO the BBC created Farage. If they hadn’t kept giving him disproportionate coverage, he and his ideas would have stayed on the loony fringe….

      The BBC also largely accountable for Scotland’s shame… “our” UKIP MEP David Coburn.

    111. Cubby says:

      Yesindyref2@6.54pm

      I cannot fault what you said in that reply other than it does not address the point I was making that legally Scotland cannot in any circumstances declare UDI because Scotland is not a dependent state. Scotland is an equal partner in a union. Now Wales may be a dependent state and therefore it could declare UDI. Is my logic wrong?

      If my logic is correct then all talk of certain events being UDI regarding Scotland or indeed England are just plain wrong.

    112. Cubby says:

      Proud Cybernat@7.20pm

      Yes you are correct. She’s been doing this for some time now. It also shows them wasting their parliamentary questions and wasting the FM’s time.

    113. ben madigan says:

      Coming late to the discussions as usual after work and have just skimmed through the comments but this caught my eye

      @ Dave Albiston who said “Nicola is trying to find a compromise that will attempt to balance staying in the UK while enjoying the benefits of the EU”

      Aren’t they all -Tories and Labour – trying to exit the EU while enjoying the benefits?

      “Cakeism”, it’s called or “cherry-picking” and the EU has always said it’s a NO-NO

      Are you suggesting FM Sturgeon is trying to do the same vis-à-vis the UK and EU Unions?

      A little bit of cherry here, a slice of cake there, just a nice muddle through?

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cubby
      Best keep it in its thread, then it’s in context with other postings in the thread.

      Also, contrarty to popular opinion, I don’t sit at my computer all day and night long glued to forums!

    115. Essexexile says:

      Terence callachan @6.38
      So, should I get a vote in indyref2?

    116. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 19:20,

      That’s astute, and I hope while she’s at it she reminds the NorthBritLab questioner about their party’s miserable quashing of the option in Smith.

      Much though I appreciate that tack, I still think the PO should be ruling all such questions on reserved matters “out of order” in the first place.

    117. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T.

      Hm what to do what to do ah’ve received ah letter from Ruthie ( wie ah freepost return address )
      freepost Plus RSHZ-LLJT-UCEJ. Feel free to add to my return in my name ( there’s only so much shit that ah can get into a envelope ) im sure the inventive amongst you Wingers will rise to the occasion

    118. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Note Colin Alexander back on. Perhaps he’s been away again. Nobody regular on here believes he supports independence but he obviously thinks he had deceived us.
      He believes he is very clever and we are all daft.

      There are many ostensibly clever people who suffer the same inability to understand how other people think and who do not understand that their cleverness is not wisdom or that their cleverness is not better than other people’s cleverness.

      As we all know the 2015 election was not contested by the SNP on a platform of independence so the surprising result in no way gave us a justification to seize independence.
      What it did was indicate that the referendum has legitimised independence and made it a real achievable possibility which many people had not previously believed possible.

      Problematically there is obviously an element in the SNP with the same inability to understand the thinking processes of the people and we went into a “snap” election on the risible prospect that if we didn’t talk about independence the opposition wouldn’t either – no matter how often many of us told them this was bollocks. We all know the result of that. We all knew long before the result as the leaflets lay about undelivered and the support stayed at home.

      That was then.This is now. We have recovered from a self inflicted injury.
      Latest poll for instance shows us winning back all those NE seats and Labour,as it disappears up its own fundament on 15% in the polls, going back down to one seat again.

      We should of course according to Colin, Rock and ottomanboi do something really silly and declare UDI or something.

    119. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Breeze Block in a cardboard box is my suggestion @ronnie anderson says at 8:07pm

    120. Robert Kerr says:

      @Breeks 7.32

      My memory was that the polls were all for another SNP MEP and the BBC Scotland went all out to promote, successfully, the execrable Coburn to thwart the SNP Gain.

      It mattered not that he was useless as an MEP or indeed as a human being. All that mattered was to stall the SNP advance.

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      Well played.

    122. Petra says:

      ‘WATCH: SNP MP calls on May to explain The National’s press conference ban.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17264896.watch-snp-mp-calls-on-may-to-explain-the-nationals-press-conference-ban/

      …………………………………………………………

      ‘WATCH: Jackson Carlaw’s FMQs attack over fishing flops.’

      …”The First Minister quoted Alistair Sinclair, co-ordinator of the Scottish Creel Fishermen’s Federation, in return.

      “I really wouldn’t trust the Tories as far as I could throw them. Whenever it comes to fishing, it’s always been a sacrificial lamb.”

      Does Carlaw know better than the Scottish Creel Fishermen’s Federation?”..

      ..”Perhaps this passage from the First Minister sums it up best, though: “There’s something starting to become very clear at First Minister’s Questions. The redder Jackson Carlaw’s face gets, the more he points wildly across the chamber, the more trouble he is in.

      “He asks me to support a deal that is bad for Scotland and bad for the UK, when the Prime Minister can’t even get her own party to support that deal.”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17265654.watch-jackson-carlaws-fmqs-attack-over-fishing-flops/

      ……………………………………………

      @ Boris …..

      Boris please don’t let anyone deter you from posting on his site. I, for one, find your articles to be extremely interesting and really appreciate the time and effort you obviously put into constructing them.

    123. Alba Laddie says:

      Have “Pastor” Hayter and HYFUD ever been seen in the same room at the same time?

    124. Cubby says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @8.28pm

      Don’t think that Scotland can ever do UDI.

    125. Petra says:

      @ brewsed says at 12:17 pm …. ”Should we end up with a no-deal Brexit the UK fishing waters would not, as asserted, be off-limits to all foreign fishing vessels because, prior to the UK entering the EEC and prior to the CFP, many fishing vessels from foreign countries had historic fishing rights which would reassert themselves post no-deal Brexit and a challenge to this would fail in international courts. So, in effect, the UK has gutted and kippered the fishing industry – who would have guessed?

      http://www.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefingsAndFactsheets/S5/SB_17-21_Implications_of_Leaving_the_EU-_Fisheries.pdf

      http://www.rse.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/The-Scottish-Fishing-Industry.pdf

      ………………………………………………….

      Thanks for the links brewsed. I had a look at the Scot Parly link (the other with 100+ pages will have to wait, lol), as there’s a number of issues that I’m still unsure of.

      When I was checking things out I see that the Scottish fleet lands 41% by weight, which is 56% by value (£334.4 million), the rest of the UK fleet lands 8%, which is 8% by value (£47.7 million) and the non-UK EU fleet lands 51% by weight, which is 35% by value (£210.2 million). Are the fish that the EU boats land not up to much, lol?

      Anyway I noticed (page 7) that there’s a European Maritime and Fisheries Fund (EMFF), which ”supports sustainable fishing and helps coastal communities. Between 2014 / 2020 Scotland has been allocated €107.7 million, 44% of the UK fund.”

      The chart shows that England has been allocated €92 million, NIreland €24 million and Wales €20 million.

      Why would the country, Scotland, that lands 56% of the catch by value (42% by weight) be allocated €107 million whilst England, Wales and NIreland combined that land 8% by value (8% by weight) be allocated €136 million?

      Does anyone have any idea if the money is allocated by the EU or Westminster? Or by the EU via Westminster to Scotland?

      Whatever’s going on it looks like another BIG rip off to me. And if it is it’s a crying shame as our coastal communities could surely do with more money.

    126. Alex Montrose says:

      The 5 rich family’s not only own half of Scotland’s fish quota, they also like to crew their boats with Filipino and Indonesian fishermen.

    127. Sinky says:

      If London broadcasters won’t allow SNP equal status over Brexit then no one living or organiation headquartered outside Scotland should be allowed on TV during Indyref2 news or debate programmes

    128. Sarah says:

      @Petra 9.23
      Many thanks for this info about fisheries and the EMFF funding – similar to the hill-farm support that went to non-hill farms in England instead of to Scotland. Westminster gov are thieves and robbers!

    129. Thepnr says:

      The vast majority of Scottish fishermen in terms of numbers employed own small boats under 10m long. They are based in all the small coastal towns like Anstruther and Crail in the East Neuk of Fife and Lybster and Scrabster in the far north.

      All their income is dependent on exports to the EU as most of it is shellfish and very little is for the domestic market.

      It is they who will suffer most if the SFF got their way over quotas and access to UK waters at the expense of tariffs being imposed on exports. That would kill this industry.

      I don’t think the government nor the “fishermen” have thought this through. Maybe they have though and it’s only for the benefit of the five families that create such a stushie.

    130. Clootie says:

      It was long overdue that the true story of the fish mafia broke. If only we had journalists!

    131. Dave Albiston says:

      geoo@6:47

      I don’t know why you bring up the 2017 election. My point is that there are divisions in Scotland between independence supporters and unionists. There are also divisions between remainers and brexiters. Nicola is going through the motions of trying to find a compromise.

      It won’t work but my point is that when the independence referendum comes around she will occupy the high ground because she made every effort to find a resolution within the context of the union. When it has failed then the only option is independence. As Proud Cybernat said, she is 2 moves ahead of us. Give her some slack!

    132. galamcennalath says:

      @Thepnr

      The near shore west coast lobster and crab fishermen I know are all Yessers.

      The big deep sea businesses in the NE are a mystery to me.

    133. Colin alexander says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      You point out the SNP didn’t stand for indy in 2015. Proves my point: Voting SNP and supporting indy are not one and the same.

      The last G.E. campaign was a stronger voice for Scotland AT WESTMINSTER, not indy. A unionist ticket by the SNP.

      The SNP should have been standing for indy after the 2014 indyref promises of devo-max were betrayed. Every day, every election, every chance they should be speaking up for an indy Scotland.

      The indyref policy should have been binned after 2014. The time had come for Indy by election manifesto. Instead SNP self-protection took precedence. Hoping to hang on to the power THEY have, sacrificing Scotland’s sovereignty and independence to maintain SNP dominance of UK devolution politics.

      Instead of progress, we’ve had four wasted years. The Tories and UKIP have done more to keep support for indy high with their Brexit shambles.

      The SNP have done nothing except trying to dig the Tories and UK out of the deep hole they’ve dug themselves into.

      You cannot debate without resorting to the method of false accusations that you accused Labour of. Labour falsely accused the SNP of being anti-Catholic. You resort to accusing anyone who dares to criticise the SNP as being anti-independence.

      Too much time on here is wasted by people speaking up for the SNP, instead of speaking up for independence.

      My message is: support independence.

      Whenever the SNP don’t seek a mandate to declare indy, then feel free to vote whoever you like. As a vote for the devolution SNP achieves very little.

      But if there is an indyref: vote YES.

      If the SNP ever stood again for a mandate of declaring independence then I would advise voting SNP.

    134. Thepnr says:

      @galamcennalath

      I suspect that this is case throughout Scotland and all the smaller fishermen are more likely or the same as the rest of us to either support Independence or not.

      Definitely not how things are painted in the media though, just another case of the general public being conned as to the reality of fishing in Scotland.

    135. Daisy Walker says:

      O/t,

      I keep coming back to basics, to what is known and to how that motivates people.

      The tax haven legislation gets ratified 1/1/19 and then implemented in stages mid 2019 and a couple of year later.

      This means that, the 1% who have accumulated wealth (and therefore power) over 100’s of years, from the spice trade, from the slave trade, from the China Opium Trade, from the asset stripping of entire continents, will be identified and have the enormous amount of money liable for tax, and indeed liable for compensation claims by (for example) India. And of course from profits made during 2 World Wars.

      Liable for tax – if, any deal (including transition) involves the European Court of Justice continuing to have jurisdiction. No membership of the SM or CU is doable without the ECJ.

      So, unless that 1% – and lets be honest here – when their interests are threatened, they fully believe, that they ARE the country, and we are but to serve – unless they can negotiate an under the table deal, a back route for their tax havens, they will go to extremes to preserve their status quo. Trashing the UK economy, ruining businesses, destroying lives, none of that registers on their richter scale. Truly the UK/Scottish fishing industry is tiny in their eyes. Not even the size of a minnow.

      And to pay for it all, the ready cash, Scotland’s oil and gas, then her water, then her renewables. The cash cow which keeps giving.

      And just for extras, the petty cash, the sweeties for the good boys and girls who will do their grunt work, the selling off of the NHS, Scottish Water, Social Services, Police, Fire and Rescue, the whisky industry.

      So what chance the SNP’s compromise, what chance the People’s Vote? Next to none, unless the secret backroom deal gets done.

      In that respect the First Minister is playing an absolute blinder. Laying out the ground work for as best a safety net as she can get.

      And in addition, this reasonable, unexciting, safe talk… to whom is that aimed, at dedicated Yes voters…. I don’t think so. I think it is aimed fair and square at the vote share we, on this site, have recognised we need to convert. Our No Voters. It is even throwing a wee bit of trouble into England’s back garden and splitting them on their home turf.

      The only good Brexshit is a no Brexit – which is still possible. By following the above path the First Minister is actually covering all the bases, and – should it come to the bit – building the foundations for Indy Scot, for the possibility of it becoming a very long game indeed.

      I wish it were yesterday. But I take my hat off to someone who I think got to grips with the reality of all the possibilities a long time ago.

    136. galamcennalath says:

      @Thepnr

      Any small fishing harbour. Look at the wee fishing boats flying saltines and having SNP/Yes stickers on their wheelhouse windows.

      You won’t see that in the big trawlers in Peterhead.

    137. schrodingers cat says:

      @thepnr and gala

      they are yessers

      they sell their catch to locals who wait for them to come back into the harbour.

      i know this for a fact cos i am one of the people who wait on the quay in ainster for the boats to land their catch

      fact.

      i only eat shell fish which are alive when i buy them

      fact

      there are more people on the harbour wall waiting to buy their catch than their are fishing boats

      fact

      they export nothing, they dont need to.because of the facts stated above

    138. Ken500 says:

      Don’t reply to Davidson letters. They are canvassing. Put them in the bin.

    139. geeo says:

      Albiston.

      Why would you presume to tell me to “give her some slack” ?

      I am full square behind the Scotsgov and Nicola.

      I was pulling you for elevating the importance of 38% Leave voters over 45% Yes voters.

      That is typical britnat sleekitness.

      You are insidiously implying we should care 2 fucks about 38% leave supporters of 2016 than the 45% Yes supporters of 2014.

      I am telling you, that you are fooling nobody.

    140. Big Phil says:

      @
      Daisy Walker ,
      Always love your comments , Well said. 😉

    141. boris says:

      Hayley is therefore filling a totally new highly paid Executive additional unfunded post which will not present a problem for Atholl Duncan, Head of News and Current Affairs in Scotland. The whole thing is a bloody nonsense.

      https://caltonjock.com/2017/11/11/the-new-bbc-scotland-channel-is-scheduled-to-start-broadcasting-in-february-2019-hayley-valentine-a-tied-and-tested-bbc-unionist-grasshopper-is-taking-charge-of-output-like-it-or-lump-it-auntie/

    142. jfngw says:

      Good news for the Rev, Newsnight have taken a shining to people of the cloth. I expect an invite onto some panel is in the post.

    143. Petra says:

      Has Dirty Money Davidson disappeared off of the face of the earth? Is she not allowed to open her mouth whilst she’s on maternity leave? Does being a mother exempt her from being interviewed? I wouldn’t be surprised to find that she’s in hiding right now (again) and preparing to do a runner.

      http://www.snp.org/the-tories-have-sold-out-scotlands-fishing-communities-time-after-time-and-theyve-just-done-it-again/

    144. sandycraig says:

      cat says @10.25
      If you buy your shellfish from boats in ANSTER maybe you’re no aware that only 3 of them are full time fishermen. The rest are all part timers with other full time jobs. They still have to be registered and have quota for their boats the same as the full time guys, but it is not their main employment.

      However the notion that they sell all their catch to locals for consumption is completely false. There is a small amount goes to local fish vans and merchants, for sale all over the country, but the majority of all shell fish landed there and in Pittenweem etc goes to a local merchant who trucks all his purchases to the continent. Crabs, lobsters, velvet crabs all go the same way as there is not enough demand for the amount they can supply. There is no way they can make a living without selling to the EU.

    145. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      Maybe you’re right and I just got the wrong end of the stick when I read this in the Courier last year.

      “The live catch will be weighed, taken to a wholesaler in St Monans where it will likely fetch £12 per kilo and then be shipped out for sale in Spain within four days.”

      “My father was a fishmonger for years and I did sea fishing when I was younger. I’ll take these lobsters down to East Neuk Shellfish in St Monans.“
      Every Monday he sends them to Spain in a lorry.

      And maybe the most important part of the article in the Courier.

      Tom Mackenzie was appointed manager of the FMA (Fife Fishermen’s Mutual) in January last year and has spent his entire life working in the East Neuk fishing industry.

      He says there’s an element of “craziness” whereby just about every piece of shellfish currently landed at Pittenweem is packed into lorries and goes to Peterhead or Mintlaw, Aberdeenshire, for processing and packing.

      From there it is exported mainly to Spain, France and Italy – hardly ever being sold in Fife hotels or restaurants.

      While he has been doing what he can to encourage local restaurants to take an interest in Fife-caught shellfish, he believes there’s still so much more that can be done.

      https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/515857/sea-plate-fishing-industry-staying-afloat-fife/

    146. sandycraig says:

      Thepnr

      You are 100% correct.

    147. Petra says:

      Question Time: Another week of the BBC’s scary “ignorance is bliss” programme.

    148. yesindyref2 says:

      That’s not new, years ago when the fishing boats came in here you could buy some off the boat, but the rest was taken off in a truck to market and sent – wherever.

    149. Sinky says:

      Wow! Just saw Kirsty Wark read out tomorrow’s National front page on BBC Newsnight paper headlines spot.

      Like SNP MPs walk out, it takes shock tactics to get noticed by the Metropolitan bubble.

      Mind you it could be to make up for not inviting Nicola to their debates or the lack of Scottish programmes on St Andrew’s Night.
      Although after suffering two and half hours of English FA Cup tie we get a token comedy programmes with Unionist Des Clark.

      And STV is even worse … zilch from them.

      Before TV producers got obsessed with Great British everything we got several interesting programmes on 30th November.

    150. Colin Alexander says:

      I was accused of being a unionist, anti-SNP troublemaker when, on this forum, I criticised the SNP’s overseeing of the Scottish NHS .

      Since then, Shona Robison has stepped down as Cabinet Secretary for Health and the Chief Exec of NHS Scotland, Paul Gray, is also “stepping down”.

      I think those facts speak volumes about who was telling the truth.

    151. Black Donald says:

      The British government are paying money companies who are closing their fish processing operations in Scotland and moving them to Grimsby. For example, Young’s plant in Annan.

      If the post Brexit UK fishing hub is planned to be Grimsby and all fish processing operations are to be based at the Grimsby hub, my question is :

      Why would any U.K. trawler use a Scottish port. Surely better to sail to and from the Grimsby hub?

      If this is the case, then Scottish fishing has no future. Unless Scotland becomes an independent nation.

    152. Davie Oga says:

      Petra 9:23 pm.

      The Marine Management Organization manages the EMFF funds on behalf of DEFRA.

      https://www.gov.uk/guidance/european-maritime-and-fisheries-fund-emff-uk-managing-authority-ukma#mmo-role

      What Marine Management Organisation does

      https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/marine-management-organisation

      “We license, regulate and plan marine activities in the seas around England so that they’re carried out in a sustainable way.”

      They also steal about £100 million from the Scottish fishing industry.

    153. vlad (not that one) says:

      QT just now – switched off, cannot bear to watch the pompous ******s pontificating.

    154. sandycraig says:

      As an ex fisherman who fished the North Sea and West Coast for nearly 40 years, catching white fish, I was always an SNP and Independence supporter, but don’t tar me with the same brush as the guys who own the quotas and want out of the EU.

      I think the big problem with the industry started when Westminster allowed fish quotas to be traded. This made it a valuable commodity like tea or coffee or wheat or whatever you like. Some boats maybe had a quota for a species of fish which they did not catch a lot of, say coley, in a certain area. As that was no use to them they were allowed to lease or sell that particular part of their quota.

      So as normal with any trading, the guys with lots of cash would buy up that quota and use it themselves, or lease it again to another boat who needed that particular type of fish. This then means that with reduced quotas and less amount of days at sea to fish, boats were having to buy fish from other boats in order to make ends meet. It was an absolute farce, and as usual the guys who own most of the quotas now were the men who had the most money and who got in first.

      They had the same problems in Iceland years ago, slipper skippers they were called as they leased out all their valuable quota and holidayed in Tenerife for half of the year. The industry is now a closed shop unless you have a few million to buy a boat and a quota [ if you can get someone to sell ].

    155. manandboy says:

      In an interconnected world, is it in any way realistic to think of Scottish Independence as a stand alone issue?

      https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brexit-s-ending-of-free-movement-has-real-implications-for-Ireland

      “The tragedy of immigration as a driving force for Brexit is that there is appreciable scope under EU rules for controlling European immigration, while the UK has always had full control over non-European immigration. The latter was clearly of more concern to the Ukip voters who provoked Cameron into calling the referendum.

      Tracking people at the beginning and end of their journeys will always be more emotive than checking goods ‘in the market’
      But May cannot admit that without conceding her own failure to exercise the controls she is now claiming to “take back”.

      So the UK is set to embark on negotiating a future trading arrangement with immigration setting the agenda. That is likely to remain true if May or her withdrawal agreement fall, as the notion has been baked into the process.

      This has enormous implications for Ireland, which shares a de-facto immigration system with the UK via the Common Travel Area, facilitated by Ireland’s opt-out from the EU’s Schengen zone.

      As the UK aspires to a tougher system, will the Republic want to follow? If the British public begins to see Ireland as an unlocked back door, will they want to preserve the Common Travel Area? And might some Irish people find a tougher immigration regime appealing, creating a divisive internal debate?”

    156. manandboy says:

      Independence seemed only a simple matter of having a Referendum in 2014. Now it looks more like a case of unraveling a fankle.

      Brexit is a fankle.

      Mrs May has no idea what a fankle is.

    157. Thepnr says:

      @sandycraig

      I’m pretty sure that as far as Scottish fishermen go you are in the majority as not everyone one is rich enough to even have 0.1% of the UK quota never mind 8.9% as Lunar Fishing from Peterhead do.

      It’s a scandal right enough as most of the quota that these families don’t own are now owned by foreign vessels.

      Unfortunately our media is so biased and skewed that the 90% of Scots at least will never hear the other side of the story where the wee fishermen potentially face catastrophe through no fault of their own.

      A short anecdote, I was in Newcastle airport flying out to Amsterdam, had plenty of time so always prefer to wait on the landside of security so as I can go outside for a smoke.

      It meant I got yapping to another young guy that was a smoker and he was waiting on people arriving. He was a fishing vessel skipper from Newcastle, the people he was waiting on were his crew for the next four months from the Philippines.

      I was more than surprised since he told me that foreign crew were “cheaper”. They sleep on the boat for the whole four months even when in harbour since no one is going to pay for digs for them.

      That makes me ashamed to be honest as it’s exploitation but it seems that’s the road we’re heading down. Thing is it’s also your brother cousin or granny that they will exploit next.

      I can’t be doing with that. So I believe Scotland should be Independent and we set our own rules and standards of decency.

    158. remo says:

      @artyhetty 6.49pm

      Do you have a link for the bit of news you were talking about? I have had a wee look for it but I can’t find it and I think it could do with being put about a bit eg. facebook

    159. manandboy says:

      In the darkness, it is wise to follow the person who carries the lamp.

      In the uncertain gloom of Brexit, that person is most certainly NOT Theresa May.

      The current British Propaganda Campaign seeks to persuade the politically illiterate classes that the opposite is the case, that Theresa may knows the way.

      And so Theresa says, ‘I am the light’.

      And all who have their eyes tightly shut, will follow her. We call them BritnNats.

    160. Rock says:

      Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

      “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.

      If they succeed in neutralising the Rev. Stuart Campbell and WOS, independence will be “stone dead” for at least 620 years.”

    161. Hamish100 says:

      Rock Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz away tae bed.your just very boring.

    162. manandboy says:

      The whole of Brexit boils down to one simple thing, and with it, the whole future of the UK for the foreseeable future – honesty versus dishonesty. The honest people and the dishonest people. The light of the truth versus the darkness of deceipt. It is the voter’s right to choose between the two – if only they knew how to tell the difference.

    163. Thepnr says:

      O/T I’ve just read that the Scottish government publish it’s draft budget for 2019/20 on the 12th Dec. At least i think that’s what I read. See here as to why I might be confused.

      https://www.ippr.org/blog/a-progressive-future-for-income-tax-the-effects-of-cutting-income-tax-for-higher-earners-in-scotland

      The gist of the article is what will Scotland do now that Phillip Hammond has raised the threshold for higher tax payers to £50,000 in the rUK.

      Should Scotland follow suit? I don’t think so, but that’s just me and you can be sure the Britnat media will be screaming that they should else they’ll all leave Scotland.

      Only read the article if you’re really bored because it’s really boring and only worthy of absolute political anoraks LOL.

    164. Rock says:

      Ottomanboi says:
      29 November, 2018 at 6:12 pm

      “@Breeks
      As you know the SNP was the largest Scottish party at Westminster by seats and votes in 2015.
      Did zilch with it. Next election lost seats to Tories. The rest is incompetence. Think the SNP under this weak, virtue signaling leadership is kaputt as a political force, Brexit or no. UK sympathisers Sturgeon & friends have screwed things up. As strategists they lack imagination and political courage. Seems politicians, regardless of party, do stink!
      Scotland needs an alternative to this impotent crew. But doubt the citizens have the balls to offer one.
      Signing off! For ever……”

      Sadly, this site has been heavily infested with SNP apologist posters who are incapable of seeing how big time the SNP have blown it under the leadership of cautious Establishment lawyer Nicola.

      Do at least come back at the end of March 2019 when the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here will perhaps realise the consequences of the UK out of the EU and Scotland at the mercy of Westminster until 2640 AD.

      Although I think most of them are too stupid even to realise it then.

      If blind faith in religion is bad, blind faith in politicians is worse.

    165. Thepnr says:

      Serious question. Does anybody read that shite or like me just scroll on by LOL

    166. manandboy says:

      I take no pleasure in saying it, but Rock seems to me like the ‘ventilation closed’ setting in my car, which quickly results in the windscreen steaming up and I then can’t see where I’m going. Fresh air for the journey is so much better.
      Still of one Independence mind though?

    167. Thepnr says:

      O/T Today the Google homepage has a St Andrews gif as it’s banner.

    168. manandboy says:

      Ya wanna know what I really think?
      Theresa May is a Trojan horse.
      She is not what she appears.
      She is part of an oppressive and hostile force against the people of the UK.
      Preparing to strike under cover of darkness.
      Against a naive population, asleep.

    169. manandboy says:

      Democracy and conspiracy are not compatible.
      Indy14 and EU2016 were asphyxiated by conspiracy.
      When the Establishment are the conspirators, there is little chance for democracy.
      The British Establishment have a stranglehold on Democracy. Just ask the 99% Unionist Broadcast media owners.

    170. manandboy says:

      I love Thursdays. It’s the day the starter raises his pistol.

    171. Tackety Beets says:

      Thepnr

      The cheap labour from Philippenes for the fishing fleet was the biggest hypocricy from the Fishing families.
      We want Brexit to get back our waters but we want Exceptions on Immigration for our cheapo labour!

      You may recall, sadly, a year or two ago some Filipino fishermen died in Peeterheed or Fraserburgh harbour when a boat caught fire one night.

    172. Confused says:

      Calling on Wingers to do a service – stop arguing the same thing over and over or nitpicking with each other, or allowing the shills to provoke.

      Check out this article

      https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2018/11/28/a-tartan-tyranny-censorship-and-silence-in-the-virtue-signalling-scottish-police-state/

      – it’s fucking shit.

      Very long and filled with nonsense. Rip it to shreds, people – do a service.

      Now, I know “it’s on Occidentel – I won’t go there – they are terrible rightwingers” – ‘scuse me, that is the point – you are fighting on enemy territory – you are taking it to them.

      Occidental is the “high end intellectual radical right” – it is very influential and what it says often trickles down – it sets the mark for many of them.

      They do allow long comments, so take advantage.

      It is good practice for us all – its “BigBrain” shit and shall allow you to sharpen your tools.

      – I already had a go, but mine seemed to bounce … it was a bit “salty”, with a side order of vitriol.

    173. Collie says:

      The day is approaching when England will disappear up it’s own arse hole.

      And what a day that will be.

      The detested bastards from south of the border will not be missed,,,,,by anybody.

    174. Thepnr says:

      @Tackety Beets

      I had a search and found this older article where two Filipinos and a Latvian died on a fishing boat in harbour in Fraserburgh

      http://archive.fo/5oGVW

      The most recent incident I can find is this also from Fraserburgh two months ago where one man died and four injured.

      http://archive.fo/qooXr

      There’s another Buchan quoted in that last story.

      Bringing Filipinos to Scotland to work on our boats just seems wrong to me. It’s wrong because these guys never get off the boat for months, it’s also wrong if they are being paid less than you would have to pay a Scot to do the same job.

      That’s globalisation for you. Cheap as chips and who cares what the consequences are?

    175. Thepnr says:

      I’ll say this, try reading those two newspaper reports I’ve just posted and not feel ashamed.

      It’ll be bloody hard if you have a heart and any sense of what life is like for these foreign fishermen that come here to Scotland to earn a crust.

    176. manandboy says:

      So I buy a ticket on the Brexit ferry, but when I arrive at the quayside, I’m told the ferry is leaking badly. But the Ferry representative tells me that the ticket is non-refundable, and there is a chance the boat might not make it.
      And I’m supposed to risk my family’s life on the say-so of a company employee. Not in a million years. Vote Remain.

    177. Thepnr says:

      Isn’t it odd that in that second story people appear to be going out of their way to say that the cause of death and the injuries was a fire?

      I find that to be very weird as the only conclusion you can make from the story is that it was a fire. Yet nobody says that.

    178. manandboy manandboy I havek says:

      O/T and how!

      https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/11/something-crazy-happened-parliament-last-night-and-no-one-talking-about-it?amp&__twitter_impression=true

      Last night, the Tories allowed a Bill to ban the sale and use of assault rifles in the UK to FAIL.

      Who in the UK might have a use for assault rifles. None other than the Tory/DUP/UDA Alliance, with its Loyalist paramilitaries who are actively engaged in drug running and gun running.

      Must have been just a misunderstanding.

    179. Cactus says:

      A merry seasons Saint Andrew’s day 2018 greetings to ye all!

      Have a brilliant day and night ye Wingers.

      Excellent iCitizens of Scotland.

      30 November, 2018

    180. manandboy manandboy I havek says:

      I’ll protect fishing waters. I am a guard dog. Don’t come near me. I will bite if you do. I am Theresa May. Be afraid. I have power.

    181. Ghillie says:

      Cactus, HAPPY SAINT ANDREW’S DAY to you and to all =)

    182. Malcolm says:

      According to all news reports there are over 100 Tory MP’s against the PM’s deal. Why are they not calling for a Vote of No Confidence? This seems to have been forgotten about.

    183. Petra says:

      @ Sarah says at 9:50 pm – ”Petra – Many thanks for this info about fisheries and the EMFF funding – similar to the hill-farm support that went to non-hill farms in England instead of to Scotland. Westminster gov are thieves and robbers!”

      Something ”smells fishy” Sarah and the issue deserves a thorough examination, imo.

      …………………………………………………………..

      @ Davie Oga says at 11:42 pm – ”Petra – The Marine Management Organization manages the EMFF funds on behalf of DEFRA.

      http://www.gov.uk/guidance/european-maritime-and-fisheries-fund-emff-uk-managing-authority-ukma#mmo-role

      What Marine Management Organisation does.

      http://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/marine-management-organisation

      “We license, regulate and plan marine activities in the seas around England so that they’re carried out in a sustainable way.” They also steal about £100 million from the Scottish fishing industry.”

      Thanks for the links Davie. I’ll take a look when I get more time later.

      …………………………………………………………………….

      ‘Herald and IESIS attempt to terrorise us with nuclear industry sponsored attack on SNP energy policy.’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/11/29/herald-and-iesis-attempt-to-terrorise-us-with-nuclear-industry-sponsored-attack-on-snp-energy-policy/

      ……………………………………………..

      @ Thepnr says at 2:26 am …. ”I’ll say this, try reading those two newspaper reports I’ve just posted and not feel ashamed.
      It’ll be bloody hard if you have a heart and any sense of what life is like for these foreign fishermen that come here to Scotland to earn a crust.”

      Hopefully something will get done about this when we get our Independence, Thepnr. If the Tory supporting owners of these boats are anything like the politicians that they support life must be absolutely hellish for some of these workers.

    184. Petra says:

      Happy St Andrew’s Day 2018, folks. I hope you all have a fabulous weekend XXX

      You too Stu doon in Bath XXX

      …………………………………………………………..

      ‘Aberdeen leads way in Hydrogen-based transport.’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/11/29/aberdeen-leads-way-in-hydrogen-based-transport/

      ……………………………………………………..

      Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp: ‘Are our business networks failing Scottish firms over Brexit?’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17262660.are-our-business-networks-failing-scottish-firms-over-brexit/

      …………………………………………………………

      Lesley Riddoch: ‘What was the point of that? PM’s flying visit won’t save her Brexit deal.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17262746.what-was-the-point-of-that-pms-flying-visit-wont-save-her-brexit-deal/

    185. Breeks says:


      Thepnr says:
      30 November, 2018 at 2:46 am
      Isn’t it odd that in that second story people appear to be going out of their way to say that the cause of death and the injuries was a fire?

      I find that to be very weird as the only conclusion you can make from the story is that it was a fire. Yet nobody says that.

      It’s poor journalism that it doesn’t tell you, but the implication is there was a fire and crewmen were “made ill” by consequence, presumably smoke inhalation or toxic fumes. It can be pretty claustrophobic at the best of times on a fishing boat.

      I can’t really say much about Philipinno fisherman other than the population of the Philippines would double if all the crewmen serving on maritime vessels all over the world all went home for the day. It must be for the money I guess, but I don’t think this is a uniquely Scottish phenomenon. I know guys working on massive pipe laying vessels in the US and Middle East and they too have high % Phillipinno crew.

      But there’s something stinks, and it’s not the fish. Scotland’s fishing industry is a mere shadow of what it once was, it is ostensibly owned by 5 multimillionaires, doesn’t employ great numbers of people anymore, and was largely responsible for depleting it’s own stocks of fish to borderline extinction, yet whenever the UK government wants to make waves in Scotland, they make a beeline for Scotland’s fishing… All the more so since they amalgamated all our historic Regiments.

      It’s almost as if the BritNat media’s rapid criticism of any and all things Devolved is mirrored with BritNat Media’s rabid promotion and celebration of Tory owned delusional vitality.

      In the current UK regime, pity help Scotland’s Fishing, Tweed, and Whisky Industries if they weren’t Tory owned or Tory friendly. (I make no distinction between red or blue Tories). It isn’t right, and if that doesn’t make you angry, it should. The fact such industries are Scottish at all bears all the hallmarks of a flag of convenience flown to mask the true cynicism of Tory values and exploitation being kept below the radar.

      How utterly, utterly, ironic that such flag of convenience “Scottish” industries are now trailblazing the ingress of Union Jackery “tickets of convenience”. These are Scottish exports only in their geography, and the fact such geography is unalterable becomes a glass ceiling where the industry is ultimately expendable because it actually IS Scottish, and useful as a bargaining chip internationally, or a smokescreen for dressing up Tory economic policy as “Scottish”.

      Poor Scottish Fishing Industry… Did Aunty Theresa come to Scotland and visit a tannery rather than a fish market? You’ve clearly not been British enough lately. Maybe start putting Union Jacks on your fish and the Tories will pretend to be nice to you again.

    186. Nana says:

      @AConstanceSNP sets out to David Lidington MP the importance of migration to Scotland’s economy. “Why on earth would we support a deal which seeks to end freedom of movement?”…he can’t answer.
      https://twitter.com/GarethBQuinn/status/1068182162782994432

      Watch the full session here
      https://www.scottishparliament.tv/meeting/finance-and-constitution-committee-and-culture-tourism-europe-and-external-affairs-committee-cr2

      https://randompublicjournal.com/2018/11/30/weaponised-gender-politics/

      https://peterabell.blog/2018/11/29/whats-the-word/

    187. Nana says:

      On the eve of #StAndrewsDay, the Alex Salmond Show examines the case for making #Scotland’s National Day a public holiday. Guests consider whether the international movement for a #FairSaturday will provide the trigger to make Scotland’s National Day a day of genuine celebration.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX52EFv_R30&feature=youtu.be

      The emerging reality of remain
      https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/11/29/43680/

      The family of a Syrian boy who was attacked at school say they will sue Tommy Robinson over allegations against the victim.
      http://archive.is/Shfbg

      Almost 200 jobs axed at Jaguar Land Rover – but car firm says Halewood’s future is still bright
      http://archive.is/SO8DX

    188. Nana says:

      Bayer to cut 12,000 jobs in strategic overhaul
      http://archive.is/x8veF

      May compared to Trump AGAIN after BANNING journalists she disagrees with from Brexit press event
      http://archive.is/dpOh4

      Lidington reveals Brexit concession on Northern Ireland
      http://archive.is/GI1cc

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-29/brexit-banks-seen-moving-up-to-900-billion-of-assets-to-germany

    189. Nana says:

      Brexit: it’s a strange old world
      http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87070

      It’s the only deal possible, EU’s Barnier tells Brexit Britain
      http://archive.is/HCSBe

      How a future Trump Cabinet member gave a serial sex abuser the deal of a lifetime
      http://archive.is/kLt39

      http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2018/11/tommy-robinson-lies-to-incite-hatred.html

    190. wull2 says:

      Lasts night downtime question, The answer from the EU.

      My answer this morning.

      The UK is made up of two Kingdoms. One who wants to stay in the EU and one who does not, the one who wants to stay can reverse the applicant concerning it, there has been no interference from the EU on there decision.

      Does Scotland want to stay in the EU, YES

    191. Sinky says:

      Radio Scotland phone in on Brexit TV debate at 9 am.
      Scotland In Union getting more exposure in Scotsman with Panels Nash on about hijacking the Saltire.
      Which Labour councils took down Scotland’s flag

    192. Alba 46 says:

      Excellent coverage of Scotland this morning on Euronews. Fiona Hyslop being interviewed in Brussels on a visit to celebrate St Andrews day with the Scottish community.

      The reporter also stated that the high heid yins in Brussels are very aware of how Scotland has been treated by westminster and there is a lot of support for Scotland in the right places in Europe.

      I find that RT, Euronews and to a lesser extent France 24 give a really good coverage of Scotland to the extent that I gave up watching the westminster funded/backed BBC and associated hangers on at STV and SKY years ago.

      No surprise that May has opted for a TV debate on the BBC. Its the official mouthpiece of the Tories and I am sure if it goes ahead she will not be questioned in any meaningful way.

    193. Nana says:

      Inverness hotel staff shortages ‘due to Brexit’
      http://archive.is/m6VdZ

      https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1129/1014147-brexit-republic-episode-nineteen/

      Six reasons why ‘Norway Plus’ is an unlikely Brexit outcome
      http://archive.is/hw0B7

      As victims of phone hacking at Mirror Group Newspapers saw a legal bid to rescue Leveson 2 fail this afternoon, Byline reports on a landmark high court judgment implicating former Daily Mirror Editor Richard Wallace in a conspiracy to intercept voicemails – contradicting his evidence to the inquiry
      https://www.byline.com/project/76/article/2359

    194. Brian Powell says:

      Sinky

      Many old men Labour Councillors are firm Orange Order supporters, witness the west of Fife.

    195. Baldeagle58 says:

      O/T I know, but can anyone supply a link to Bernard Ponsonby’s interview with T. May from the other day?
      I’d really like to see the roasting he gave her!

    196. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2018/11/29/it-looks-like-the-bbc-and-may-are-working-together-to-set-up-corbyn-in-the-tv-debate/

      A very interesting analysis of the way the BBC operates and its obsession with the far right.

      Their idea of a leaders’ debate is to have them questioned by a dodgy panel of ‘experts’. Do doubt from ‘academic’ ‘think tanks’. The partisanship of these people will be hidden and the public are expected to believe they are impartial.

      Everyone should be able to see through it a mile off. May will be given an easy ride, and the right wing establishment plants will eviscerate Corbyn.

      As almost everyone points out, anyways, May and Corbyn are two cheeks of the same Brexit arse. A real debate would have some anti Brexit opinion represented.

    197. Nana says:

      https://www.insider.co.uk/news/bank-of-scotland-business-barometer-13663689

      Brace yourself, Britain. Brexit is about to teach you what a crisis actually is
      http://archive.is/tKdF5

      STV’s Bernard Ponsonby pressed Theresa May on how the draft #Brexit deal will affect Scotland.

      The Prime Minister was grilled on the cost of withdrawing from EU during her visit to a factory in Renfrewshire.
      video
      https://twitter.com/STVNews/status/1067868102011035653

    198. galamcennalath says:

      Nana says

      Six reasons why ‘Norway Plus’ is an unlikely Brexit outcome
      http://archive.is/hw0B7

      The FT obviously has an agenda, however this article points out that a ‘Norway’ model is probably more appropriate for small countries like Norway … or Scotland.

      The size of the UK and English exceptionalism probably mean ‘Norway’ wouldn’t last at a UK level. They would still want to diverge.

    199. @Petra,

      Looks like the hacks at the unionist herald rag don`t know what the `Renewable` word in Renewable energy means,

      ‘Herald and IESIS attempt to terrorise us with nuclear industry sponsored attack on SNP energy policy.’

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/11/29/herald-and-iesis-attempt-to-terrorise-us-with-nuclear-industry-sponsored-attack-on-snp-energy-policy/

    200. Ken500 says:

      Thirty years in the wilderness for the Tories. They could not make a bigger mess. Unbelievable.

      They will not be laughing then. Sanctioning and starving people. Quite unnecessary. Despicable.

      Going for Thatcher Mark 11. Unemployment NI 20%, 15% Scotland. The only place it was under 10% was London S/E. Interest rates 15%+. Inflation up to 25%. Civil unrest and violence. The abuse of the miners. Starving people. Poll tax etc. The banking crash. Scotland’s wealth and resources taken illegally and secretly. Westminster liars.

      The Tories are deplorable. They are a total disgrace. Labour are useless. May could have been voted down Sept 2017 Evel vote. The LibDems did not even turn up. Corbyn does not turn up to vote. The Tories will soon get voted out. What a way to carry on. The Westminster corruption beyond belief. Most of them should be in jail.

      Roll on Independence.

      Grouse Beater is one of the best writers in Scotland. The unionists liars trying to ruin the economy.

    201. Luigi says:

      galamcennalath says:

      30 November, 2018 at 9:26 am

      Nana says

      https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2018/11/29/it-looks-like-the-bbc-and-may-are-working-together-to-set-up-corbyn-in-the-tv-debate/

      A very interesting analysis of the way the BBC operates and its obsession with the far right.

      Their idea of a leaders’ debate is to have them questioned by a dodgy panel of ‘experts’. Do doubt from ‘academic’ ‘think tanks’. The partisanship of these people will be hidden and the public are expected to believe they are impartial.

      Everyone should be able to see through it a mile off. May will be given an easy ride, and the right wing establishment plants will eviscerate Corbyn.

      Corbyn is playing this one correctly, IMO. The BBC will never give him a fair crack at the whip, and after all, May is the one desperate to have this rigged “debate”. By insisting on STV and at a different time, Corbyn effectively defuses any accusations of cowardice. He will debate, but on his terms. Quite right – May is desperate for this, so make her stew.

      Corbyn has nothing to lose by playing awkward IMO.

    202. gus1940 says:

      Why is St Andrew Day on 30/11 in the middle of winter?

      Who decided that and why?

      A nice sunny day in the middle of the summer would be better.

    203. Terence callachan says:

      A lot of discussion about fishing industry today.
      Scotland is kept poor, fresh fish is too expensive for most Scottish families there used to be many more fish shops but they have closed down because of lack of business.Scottish fish is mostly sent to Europe because the Mediterranean has been overfished and its uneconomic for fishermen to search for fish there .If you go to restaurants around the Mediterranean you will find yourself paying €60 a kilo for fresh fish and that’s because the fishermen have to spend so long looking for fish that it is their time you are paying for .
      If you buy local fish in a restaurant in the Mediterranean area it will either be little sardine type fish because there are hardly any big fish left, or it will be locally farmed fish .
      Most of the actual fish sold in restaurants around the med are frozen fish coming from the North Sea and the Atlantic ,my complaint is that Scottish people should be able to afford fresh fish especially fresh fish that is literally on their doorstep but Englands Westminster keeps Scotland poor so too many of our families have to eat frozen processed food that is cheap but not nearly as nutritious as fresh fish.
      You can say the same about fresh meat, so many butchers have closed down in Scotland because Scottish people can’t afford the cost of fresh meat.Much of Scotlands fresh meat is sent to England because its higher quality than they produce themselves.Again my complaint here is not exporting produce my complaint is that Scottish families should be able to afford fresh meat especially fresh meat that is produced on their doorstep but again they can’t because Englands Westminster keeps Scotland poor.
      So often in my life when overseas people from other countries assume that because I’m from Scotland I drink whisky,they are shocked when I tell them the cost of a few mils of it here in a pub or restaurant they assumed it would be cheapest here because we make the stuff, again another example of Englands Westminster keeping Scottish people so poor that they can’t even afford their own national drink.
      And so on and on it goes,strawberries ,raspberries etc other fruit and veg produced in huge quantities in Scotland but costs more here than it does to buy it in England ,they say it’s because of bulk buying England buy more so it’s cheaper even though it’s made here in Scotland ,same goes for the electricity and gas and oil and petrol all much cheaper in England even though produced here.
      When will it end.
      When Scottish people say to England
      We are not puting up with this anymore
      We are taking control of our own country
      That means Scottish independence

    204. Liz g says:

      Gus 1940 @ 9.58
      Said the same thing about Alex Salomds proposal for Our Independence Day back in 2014… LOL

    205. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Baldeagle58.

      You asked,
      “O/T I know, but can anyone supply a link to Bernard Ponsonby’s interview with T. May from the other day?
      I’d really like to see the roasting he gave her!”

      https://twitter.com/i/status/1068071498655637504

    206. Breeks says:

      If Nicola takes the perfectly correct moral and principled stance about not sharing a platform with protofascist Steve Bannon, shouldn’t she adopt a similar disposition to sharing a platform with right wing colonial subjugators like May and Corbyn who both show complete contempt and disregard for both the Constitutional Sovereignty and Democratic will of our Country?

      The program concept is clearly just a vehicle for Brexit propaganda, pretending to engage with a public which will actually be denied having a meaningful say on the Exiting Agreement. Please ask yourself, what purpose does such a broadcast serve???

      May has also refused to share a platform with Scotland throughout the entire Brexit negotiation process. Quid pro Quo. May has no roll to play in Scotland’s future. I’m fine with that.

      We should cutting our links with the UK and looking to Europe for our future stability, not trying to salvage the UK which absolutely determined to wreck itself, and which has nobody to blame for its impending calamity but its own corrupt media and right wing fanaticism, which might yet evolve into protofascism of the Steve Bannon variety.. Don’t forget, the Bannon event Nicola pulled out from was a BBC sponsored affair.

    207. Terence callachan says:

      On this St. Andrew’s day I wish every one a happy and prosperous life.
      I also want to take this opportunity to ask English people to refrain from voting in a Scottish independence referendum, I want to ask them to respect the right of scottish people to decide Scotlands future without interference from England , it’s the right thing to do and I’m sure deep down in your heart you know that.
      England is a wonderful place ,it’s a fantastic place to live ,I know because I have lived there for many years it has beautiful countryside ,changeable weather that is undervalued and in my opinion some of the nicest rivers you will ever see.
      I’ve been accused of hating England because I ask that England should not be allowed to vote in a Scottish independence referendum but I appeal to those with sense and foresight to appreciate that if England were to have a vote on becoming an independent country I would say also that Scottish people should not have a vote on that because it would be a matter for English people alone.
      I have no objections to make when England decided that England should leave the EU that is a matter for England to decide and nothing to do with Scotland.
      The same applies the other way, if Scotland wanted to leave the EU it is a matter for Scotland to decide .
      One way or another this time next year things will be different.
      I hope Scotland gets what it wants decided by Scottish people
      And I hope England gets what it wants decided by English people

    208. call me dave says:

      Well I got The National in my usual papershop this morning and just for a laugh dropped by the three other shops from yesterday to check….all was well in everyone of them.

      The National shortage yesterday was just a blip obviously. ??

      Happy At Andrews Day.

    209. Happy St Andrew`s Day,

      Patron Saint of Scotland,Russia and fishermen.

      Nicola is calling for a `small act of kindness` by Scots to celebrate St Andrew.

    210. sandycraig says:

      Thepnr.

      Just a follow up of last night. You are correct about the Phillipino fishermen being brought over with their flights paid. It’s sad but they can earn much more at the fishing here than they can in their own country. The Scottish White Fish Producers Association (the boat owners) have a care and welfare policy for foreign workers, and I know they have had representatives in the Phillipines ensuring that the men are properly paid and looked after. Living on a boat for a couple of months I’m not so happy about though.

      These fishermen are like the fruit pickers, they go where the work is. When the Scottish fleet was drastically cut because of low quotas, restrictions on fishing etc, many crewmen managed to get employment on the rigs, or on stand by vessels for better pay. This left a shortage of local fishermen, so the gap was filled with the foreign workers. A wee while ago when the oil industry had a downturn and many men were paid off, lots of the ex-fishermen went back to the fishing, probably hoping they would get a call later when the oil picked up again.

      The Fraserburgh “Sunbeam” accident happened when crewmen were cleaning salt water tanks, not sure if it was a fire. It is unlikely there would be any foreign workers on board that type of vessel. She is a mid water pelagic trawler (herring and mackerel catcher), and they are the Formula 1’s of fishing. Private owned, crewed by friends and family and super earners.

    211. Liz g says:

      Happy St Andrews Day to one and all xx

      I’d like to take this opportunity to invite everyone over 16 years, who live and work in Scotland.
      To remember to register and to Vote in the upcoming Indy Ref.
      It doesn’t matter where you’re from your here now!
      And we need to bring Government home to Holyrood.

      We will only get good Government when we bring it within Slapping distance.
      We need to put an end to the days of, not being able to control what Governments do!
      So sign,up as is your right.
      If you live here they will be governing for you to, so you must have your righteous say!

    212. Socrates MacSporran says:

      gus 1940

      St Andrew was probably allocated 30 November as his Saints Day by the Roman Catholic Church, way back when.

      We can always arrange for Independence Day to be some time in mid-Summer, to make amends, however.

    213. Golfnut says:

      @Gus1940

      Apparently it’s the beginning of Advent, though Malcolm 111, made St Andrews day a celebration by Slaughtering cattle for winter replacing the traditional Samain date.

    214. galamcennalath says:

      gus1940 says:

      Why is St Andrew Day on 30/11 in the middle of winter?

      Perhaps a wider question might be why so many celebrations and days-off are NOT during the good summer weather?

      It’s probably obvious, actually. People celebrated the harvest as winter approached , the turning point of winter, and the end of winter with the rebirth of everything. Survival over winter was their big challenge and thus focus.

      Personally, I would make a really big deal of St John’s day i.e. Mid summer. Other northern cultures make a big deal of it. So why not Scotland?

      June weather in generally good, so an overnight bonfire, a BBQ, and able libations sounds good to me.

      Bannockburn was 23-24th. Midsummer’s day would make an excellent national day, or dare I suggest …. Independence Day? 🙂

    215. Baldeagle58 says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:

      30 November, 2018 at 10:10 am

      Hi Baldeagle58.

      You asked,
      “O/T I know, but can anyone supply a link to Bernard Ponsonby’s interview with T. May from the other day?
      I’d really like to see the roasting he gave her!”

      https://twitter.com/i/status/1068071498655637504

      Thanks for that Brian. 🙂

    216. Jock McDonnell says:

      @gus1940

      Scots in Sydney lap it up, with a BBQ too.

    217. Proud Cybernat says:

      “…We should cutting our links with the UK and looking to Europe for our future stability, not trying to salvage the UK which absolutely determined to wreck itself…”

      How exactly will a Brexit devastated rUK be of any benefit to Scotland? In trying all she can to prevent the UK from wrecking itself, the FM is looking after the rUK but also Scotland’s best interests after we are indy because we will still be trading with the rUK. The rUK will still need our electricity, our oil, our food produce. We need an rUK that can actually afford to pay for those things.

      In trying to prevent the UK from total self-harm, the FM is doing exactly the right thing. Indy Scotland will need a functioning rUK to work with. If she ultimately fails to turn UK away from this act of extreme folly then so be it – she will have done everything she could to prevent it and Scotland must then look – with even more urgency – to take a different road to avoid the inevitable UK crash.

    218. Colin Alexander says:

      Stu Campbell and Dave McEwan Hill and others have failed to appreciate Scottish sovereignty with their use of the UDI arguments.

      UDI is used as the bogeyman to support a (worth trying at the time) failed SNP policy of indyref, which is held onto to for one reason only: to protect SNP devolution power.

      The real situation is that we are in a union.

      Ending that Union is not UDI. It’s not the breakaway of a province or region from a state.

      Scotland’s people can choose to dissolve the Union. End that Treaty of Union. Thus, reverting Scotland and England to separate kingdoms.

      Scotland would not be creating a “new” state, it would be reverting to its former state by dissolving a treaty, which she is legally entitled to do.

      Scotland remains sovereign even within that union ( as does England). But, only England is allowed to effectively operate sovereignty by dominating the UK Parliament.

      Even Nicola Sturgeon does not talk about a bipartite UK union of Scotland and England; she has repeatedly used language such as the four nations of the Union, effectively putting Scotland in the same legal situation as Northern Ireland.

    219. sassenach says:

      Terence callachan says:

      Your inbuilt dislike of English residents in Scotland is patently obvious, but is very offensive. Yet you peddle this view in nearly all your posts, thus alienating many others of similar background to myself ( which I will presume must be your real unionist motive!!).

      I came to Scotland, to University, when I was 18, married a Scots girl, produced kids and grandkids (all living in Scotland), worked most of my life as a teacher in Scotland’s state schools (for over 35 years), have supported the SNP with time, membership and cash over much of that period – and you have the nerve to say I should be barred from voting on my own and my family’s future in a referendum?
      You are a charlatan, sir!

    220. Proud Cybernat says:

      What Sassenach said.

      Callachan – get tae.

    221. Les Wilson says:

      Suggest going to Rev’s twitter feed for this one.
      In a BBC interview an economist makes a dire mistake for the BBC.
      He says that the UK could lose £200billion per annum. Then he says that would be like losing athe income from Scotland.
      £200billion from Scotland and we get around an 8th of that.

      Blows the subsidy thing right out of the water.When you look at the video of this look further down that feed for Scottish reactions. Wow.

      Best is though I still do not think these are high enough figures bt a long way, because there was a snip on Youtube from Carney saying (or rather mumbling,but you could still make it out) that when asked about what the Scottish gdp was worth, he said…….A trillion!

      I had the link to that, but lost via my old computer, it could still be on youtube, but perhaps not…..

    222. Ken500 says:

      The NE has low unemployment levels and has done for years. People prefers to work on the supply boats or the rigs for better terms and conditions. More time off etc. Than fishing. Many workers work on the rigs until their mortgage is paid off and then take less demanding jobs onshore. Many people from the NE work overseas. Scottish based Oil companies get contracts all over the world. Bringing in more revenues which should come to Scotland. Many Oil workers come from abroad. Brexit will cause major damage to the industry,

      Some fishermen ruined their own industry overfishing the seas and throwing back dead fish for years. Instead of using bigger nets like Norway. When the SNP reps were involved, only recently. The problems were being resolved. Negotiation to use bigger nets for increased quotas. Improving terms and conditions. Increased education facilities for increased skills. The EU funds the fishing industry £Millions in grants and investment.

      Half the fish consumed in the UK is imported. Scottish fishing produce are exported to the EU and other countries. Salmon to China is on of the biggest food exports.

    223. Ken500 says:

      The Mediterranean is full of fish. Just look in any harbour waters on the Costas. Swarming with fish. They eat all different kinds of fish. Even off the coast of Africa. Negotiated by the EU. Just look in any Spanish supermacardo. Some Scottish from the NE were fishing off the African coast. Many Mediterranean fishermen fish sustainable. Just going out every day and catching what they need.

      The EU policy has exclusive rights for home ports and 12 mile limits. So how can foreigners land their catches without having to go for miles to a port. The fish would decay. There are no foreign boats landing at Peterhead or Fraserburgh.

      There is a season to fishing inshore prawns etc. October to March. The coldest most dangerous months and conditions. Many fishermen like to get Oil/turbine work. It pays more. Some have vessels transferring crew and personnel from ship to shore. Docking in port costs £10k a night. Limited space. A larger port is being constructed at Aberdeen for liners and decommissioning work. There are £Millions being invested in Dundee and other places for decommissions work. Cruise liners are bringing more tourists to Scotland.

    224. Golfnut says:

      @ Les Wilson.

      I think I posted this on another thread, Scotland should be looking at Norway, theirs is around 400 Billion USD.
      Yes I know that they have quite a lot of industry, but your reference to Carney’s response to the Westminster finance committee, the Scotland had ‘ north of a £trillion in financial assets ‘ not GDP. Scotland’s finance industry more than compensates for not having the heavy industry we once had, though would be good to see that regenerated.

    225. Nana says:

      https://theorkneynews.scot/2018/11/29/farming-matters-as-ithers-see-us/

      Update
      https://news.gov.scot/news/michelin-dundee

      This year we’re encouraging everyone in Scotland to celebrate by carrying out small acts of kindness to #MakeSomeonesDay.
      https://twitter.com/scotgov/status/1068426270814412800

    226. Les Wilson says:

      Golfnut says:
      Thanks for that G/N,I remembered the trillion and that struck me at the time. Still not shoddy for a country of just over 5 millon people. Yes we seem to be good at financial services, these will expand after Indy too, along with everything else.

    227. Gfaetheblock says:

      Terence and Blair

      Is it just the English you would exclude, or other nationalities as well?

      The Irish, Welsh, dutch or Norwegians?

      Have you thought about how you define ‘scottish’? Are you an incomer yourself Terence?

    228. yesindyref2 says:

      @sassenach
      So Terence callachan and Blair Paterson come onto an Indy supporting website and effectively tell some people not to vote YES. They’re complete fakers.

    229. stu mac says:

      @sassenach says:
      30 November, 2018 at 11:27 am
      @Terence callachan says:

      Your inbuilt dislike of English residents in Scotland is patently obvious, but is very offensive. Yet you peddle this view in nearly all your posts, thus alienating many others of similar background to myself ( which I will presume must be your real unionist motive!!). You are a charlatan, sir!

      And also a liar as he constantly repeats the same sets of bogus statistics even though they have been disproved time and again by others on this site. One might even suspect he is a unionist deliberately leaving anti-English comments on this site so they can be dug up later and used to discredit it.

    230. stu mac says:

      @Blair Paterson says:
      30 November, 2018 at 12:07 pm
      ==========================

      And you are another bigot. All who wish to live in and contribute to this country are welcome and I’m glad to say that the vast majority here agree with me while you only have your pet Callaghan.

    231. sassenach says:

      Blair Paterson

      So, you don’t live in Scotland – but want to pontificate on who should be deciding our future? Ridiculous position to argue from.

      The people who should be eligible must simply be permanent residents of Scotland.

      Now, gies a brek – pretty please!!

    232. geeo says:

      I have reported Blair Paterson’s disgusting post to Stu.

      Shouting at him (Paterson) via the comments, just gives him what he wants, disruption.

      Stu often says he cannot catch all the disgusting comments and relies on people reporting comments so he can deal with them more quickly and efficiently.

      Patersons post was not a difference of opinion, it was 100% out of order and has potential for people thinking that was the view of this site.

      Notice how these types of nasty, ignorant posts always appear at the end of the 2nd from last topic post, where it is more likely to be read by folks reading the last few comments before starting to read the current post.

      No coincidence in that.

      Do not respond, REPORT.

      That way we may rid ourselves of scum like Blair Paterson and his abhorrent views.

    233. geeo says:

      @golfnut.

      Re: “north of a trillion-sterling”

      Mr Carney referenced the financial services sector value as “10 times Scottish GDP” ie: north of a Trillion-sterling.

      Scotland removing all those revenue streams will severely damage WM books.

      Never mind ‘too wee too poor’ nonsense from WM, perhaps we should be asking where WM will be getting £100bn from to fund THEIR ACTUAL fiscal ‘black hole’ from after we leave them to it ?

    234. Cubby says:

      Paterson

      Your comment is not acceptable. Please apologise or go away.

    235. Cubby says:

      Colin Alexander@11.14am

      Your comments about UDi I agree with but as usual you have to have a go at the SNP. As you do this in every post this undoubtedly marks you out as a sneaky Britnat trying to operate under a false flag. You are not fooling anyone.

    236. Silverytay says:

      geeo@2.41
      Thank you , I was going to comment about Blair Paterson,s comment but unfortunately I had to go out .
      I don’t comment on here a lot these days but I do look in several times a day .
      I hate to think what many undecided voters who are looking in for the first time thought about Blair,s comment .
      As far as I am concerned if you live in Scotland , work in Scotland and pay taxes in Scotland then you are entitled to a vote .
      The only thing I would say is that we need to put a 2to3 year residency lock on for the next referendum .
      That would put a stop to holiday home owners and the o.o coming over from Ulster to influence the vote .

    237. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Some potential good news on the horizon with that Michelin link Nana.

      On the little act of kindness? Something you do every day. 🙂

    238. Macart says:

      I don’t care about your point of origin. You chose to live here. Make your life here. Contribute here. Being a Scot isn’t simply about an accident of birth. It can be a choice. It can be a mindset and a way of life.

      Home is where your heart is. If Scotland is where you’ve chosen to make your home? Then welcome. 🙂

    239. Liz g says:

      Macart @ 3.39
      Well said…
      No taxiation without representation the thing a person CAN control trumps, Country of birth that a person CANNOT control …every time.
      Country of birth as a concept is so 17th century and should be left there!

    240. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g / @Macart
      It’s not just the income tax either, people might pay none, but living here still pay VAT on goods they buy, pay council tax perhaps, and the money they spend in the economy generates jobs, wages, NI, corporation tax, and the same again on that secondary spending (the economic multiplier). So they DO contribute to the economy and revenues, all their lives here.

    241. Terence callachan says:

      To sassenach …and blairmac…gfaetheblock…
      Hello ,I don’t dislike English Residents of Scotland I do however think they should not have a vote on Scottish independence .
      Scotland could have independence now if it wanted all it would have to do is say that England will not be allowed a vote and that means English people not voting on Scottish independence which is a matter for Scottish people not English people.
      Again we have someone asking would Irish Welsh Dutch Norwegian people be told they cannot vote on Scottish independence ignoring the fact that it is not Ireland Wales Netherlands or Norway that currently controls Scotland, it is England that we seek independence from so England should not get a vote and it matters not where the English people live they should not be able to vote for England to keep control of Scotland as nearly all of them do.
      As for the comment that anyone who lives in Scotland or pays taxes in Scotland or works in Scotland should have a vote on Scottish independence I would like to point out that there are many who do live or work or pay taxes here but do not get a vote.
      There are rules existing about who can vote and what their rights to reside are in the uk and it is Englands Westminster that made those rules.
      As for sassenach s comments to mr Patterson that he should not be able to vote in a Scottish independence referendum even though he is Scottish ,just because he doesn’t live in Scotland at present I would say that he has more of a right to vote on Scottish independence than sassenach who is an English man living in Scotland.
      This is about Scotlands future it’s different from a council local government election or a general election and so the rules have to be different about who can vote.
      The rules about who can vote in a council local government election are different to who can vote in a general election .
      The rules about who could vote in the Brexit referendum were different again ,EU citizens were not allowed a vote in the Brexit referendum.
      The rules about who can vote in council local government elections ,general elections, Scottish independence referendum , Brexit referendum are not all the same and never have been.

    242. yesindyref2 says:

      Incidentally to that, what happens with QE is that it’s given to the banks. £450 billion worth or more. An economic argument that was circulated at the time was that it would be better giving it to the people, particualrly those that needed it most – those on welfare, benefits, universal credit these days.

      Simple because, being short of money, they would spend it rather than save it, straight away into the economy, and hence generate revenues and an increase in GDP.

      It’s an argument I totally believe in.

    243. Terence callachan says:

      Many people who voted in the Scottish independence referendum 2014 are no longer in Scotland they were temporary residents here from Italy Germany Poland etc etc students temporary workers etc they will not return to live here ever ,many voted NO for tax purposes because Westminster had led the, to believe that independent Scotland would tax them more than UK.
      They should never been able to vote.

    244. Terence callachan says:

      One more point about who should be able to vote in a Scottish independence referendum
      Check who can get a British passport and what the rules are then decide

    245. yesindyref2 says:

      Remember Corby during Indy Ref 1? A village in England mostly populted by Scots? “Little Scotland”? Remember the mini referendum they had? “The ballot, which was held during Corby’s annual Highland Gathering, saw 576 votes cast with 162 backing Scots independence and 414 rejecting it.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-28279790

      Why would they have a vote on OUR Independence for real? If the trains are late in England, is it the fault of the Scottish Government? If the buses don’t run, the hospitals have a 3 year waiting list for an ingrowing toenail, is it the fault of the SG? Should they therefore have a vote on who makes up our Government here in Scotland?

      Does any of their spending come to Scotland, contribute to our economy? NO, it does not. Do they pay council tax in Scotland? No, they do not.

      So why on earth should these people WHO DO NOT LIVE HERE have a vote on our future?

      Simple answer – NO, they should not.

      Anyone who suggests it is aiding and abetting the Unionists.

    246. geeo says:

      You going to be next person reported for casual bigotry ?

      I suggest you cease your bigoted claptrap now, or your bigoted pash shall be sent to Stu Campbell to ajudicate.

      By singling out ENGLISH people, you are being a bigot.

      Your bigoted pish shall not be tolerated here, you have been warned.

    247. geeo says:

      My above post is directed at Callaghan btw.

    248. yesindyref2 says:

      @geeo
      I didn’t think it was me 🙂

    249. geeo says:

      Yesindyref2: Never imagined that you would think that for a moment….lol

      Callaghan may want to note that Stu has removed Blair Patersons offensive anti english comment after I reported it.

      He WILL be next.

    250. yesindyref2 says:

      @geeo
      Well done, you and Rev.

      Bigotry has no place in Scotland.

    251. geeo says:

      Better than clogging the thread, for one, and for two, removes the offensive post, limiting the amount of people visiting the site from being subjected to it and thinking that WE pro indy folks could think like that or even tolerate such bile.

    252. yesindyref2 says:

      Indeed.

    253. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2

      Must admit I didn’t know about that Corby thing. Though why they should have the mock vote at all??? Now’t as queer as folk.

      You know me dads and it’s basically as I said above.

      For me, if you want to build a nation? It’s about how you want to be governed. How you want to live. How you want to be recognised and treated. It’s about the home you want to make and have. It’s about all the people, regardless of their point of origin.

      Having those things isn’t about where you come from. It’s about where you choose to be.

    254. Tinto Chiel says:

      The weird Corby Vote was just another wizard stunt by the Unionists. Historically, steel workers, mainly from the Motherwell area, went down there for work. In the 70s they sometimes mustered two coaches for Motherwell FC’s games until natural wastage gradually caused the madness to dissipate 😛

      Since the majority were probably Labour voters from the egg with possible Citrus Fruit tendencies emanating from Craigneuk, voting No would not be unexpected.

      “Highland Games” always make me think of Proud Scots who simply are not Proud Enough in any case.

      Tinto Top Tip: “You’ve got to be IN Scotland to win it.”

    255. Fairliered says:

      Terence Callachan and Blair Paterson.
      I was born in England. I had an English mother and Scottish father. I moved to Scotland in 1972, joined the SNP in 1974, have been an office bearer in the party, worked for Yes during the referendum campaign, and have a Scots born wife and children.
      Are you seriously telling me I shouldn’t have a vote in the next referendum?

    256. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      I was just getting into the Herald then though still pre-moderated. An article there:

      http://archive.is/buTYl

      I came across Scots home for the weekend at times, all indignant they could’t vote in the Ref and put the SNP in their place, stop them ripping Scotland out of the UK. Their knowledge of current day Scotland was almost non-existent. some even were surprised pubs opened on a Sunday.

      Letting them vote would have killed Independence forever.

    257. K1 says:

      We’ve been here before wi Blar Paterson, he’s been peddling this pish since indy…we all totally destroyed his arguments then, and that’s why when anyone else pipes in wi the same old pish they are given short shrift.

      Rightly so…

      What shall we do? DNA tests to establish ‘Scots’ descent’? Fucking ridiculous argument, not even ‘debatable’ imo.

      Pfft!

    258. Terence callachan says:

      To fairlieread…
      Hello,
      As I have said many times I think the rule of thumb that should be applied is the rule in UK for qualifying for a passport.So if you have a parent who is Scottish you would qualify for a passport and therefore I believe you should be able to vote on Scottish independence.
      As I have said many times before just living in Scotland in my opinion is not enough to qualify for voting in a Scottish independence referendum nor is it enough to qualify under current rules for a passport.
      If the rules are good enough for passport entitlement
      They are good enough for determining Scotlands future
      If there was such a thing as a Scottish passport and the qualifying rules for one were the same rules applied for a UK passport and you did not satisfy those rules then I don’t think you should get to vote in a Scottish independence referendum
      A bit like saying anyone who is living in Scotland who does not have entitlement to a UK passport and I do stress entitlement, then they should not be able to vote in a Scottish independence referendum, general election yes council election yes but not Scotlands future and as English people are from the country we are trying to take back control from and because they have such a much bigger population than Scotland we should not let them vote either.
      Rules that apply already to important matters such as passports.
      And remember England decided EU citizens and those who do not have entitlement to a UK passport were not allowed to vote in the Brexit referendum so same rule applicable here to English people surely.

    259. yesindyref2 says:

      So are you saying Mike Russell, born in Bromley, shouldnt’t be able to vote in the Indy Ref? You do know who Mike Russell is?

      Or anyone born in Scotland who doesn’t have a Scottish parent but has spent all their lives here, can’t vote?

      What a dick.

    260. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Link to the BBC interview you were after @Les Wilson says at 11:36 am

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jVYbPYygsow&feature=youtu.be

      “In a BBC interview an economist makes a dire mistake for the BBC.”

      “He says that the UK could lose £200billion per annum. Then he says that would be like losing the income from Scotland, £200billion per annum from Scotland”

    261. geeo says:

      Well, you had your chance to voluntarily stop promoting anti english bile, Terence Callaghan.

      Reported for anti english bigotry.

      Sealed your fate when you were selective in your discriminatory attitude to english people only.

      Stu can judge your comments now.

    262. Thepnr says:

      @Terence callachan

      Deary me, here was me thinking you might have turned over a new leaf but no, you still display the same bigotry against the English as you always have.

      Don’t you realise that that is a vote loser? Do you want to be part of an Independent bigoted country that excludes others because they are foreign?

      I’m so happy to know that the majority that post on Wings seem to have the same opinion as I do and that is we aught to be an inclusive nation, all Jock Tamsons bairns and all that.

      You’re wasting your time posting here if your goal is to get people to become as bigoted as you are.

      As Proud Cybernat said earlier, get tae!

    263. Cubby says:

      Terence Callachan

      You have by your anti English posts done a disservice to the independence movement and your own credibility. A lot of your posts are excellent but you have also done a disservice to the debate around who should be entitled to a vote in indyref2 e.g. Holiday homes, people living outside Scotland but using parents home to register.

      Please reconsider your position.

    264. Maolbeatha says:
      “The thought that the fishermen could block EU boats from UK waters via Brexit and still be allowed access to the EU market to sell them never made any sense to anyone but the Fishermen themselves. It never seemed plausible.”

      Why? To me, it seems reasonable that (while fish at sea swim where they will and so cannot be said to ‘belong’ to anyone) the fish stocks in any nation’s waters are rightly fished by that nation’s own fleet and no others – unless by invitation and agreement.

      The idea that other nation’s fishing vessels should be free to come willy-nilly (or according to some deal externally imposed on Scotland) to fish those stocks from Scottish coastal waters is what seems to me unreasonable.

      Similarly I would not accept a person coming from elsewhere helping themself to fruit from my garden (if I had one) or from my allotment.. unless I, myself, had entered into some reciprocal deal with them.



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