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SNP Members For Independence

Posted on October 04, 2020 by

Geoff Bush is an SNP member.

SNP Members For Independence? What a ridiculous phrase – surely every member of the SNP is in favour of independence, right?

That’s mostly true of course, but the leadership and many elected representatives of the party appear to be intent on repeating the failed Section 30 route to independence, and also on restricting serious debate about alternative strategies.

It seems that a revised “Plan B” may be discussed at the party conference, still almost two months away, and for all Plan B’s merits it is seriously flawed and its inclusion at the expense of alternative and better plans at conference would merely pay lip service to the term “serious debate”

Something clearly needed to be done, which is why SNP Members For Indy has been set up. So what’s it for and what is it trying to do?

Our key aim is to change SNP policy on the best way to achieve independence. We recognise that independence can only be achieved in the next year or two by changing this crucial policy from within the party.

We do not think that independence can be achieved in any reasonable timescale by joining other pro-independence parties. Many of our group members have stated that they were on the point of leaving the SNP in utter frustration before hearing of our group. The group makes it easy to communicate ideas and support horizontally amongst the membership across Scotland.

It helps us all understand that although may feel we are lone voices in our own branch we are actually part of a large choir across the country. While a lone voice can easily be ignored, a large choir is harder to silence.

The group aims to generate policy alternatives to Section 30 and Plan B in a collaborative fashion among the members of the group, and to endeavour to ensure that these alternatives are openly discussed at every branch and at conference and that a more powerful, logical, legitimate in the true sense, and therefore potentially successful route to independence is adopted as SNP policy.

Where have we got to so far?

Numbers: The group now has well over 300 SNP members into its 2nd week from launch, and the aim is to reach at least 1,000 members in the next few weeks. Critical mass is necessary, as is a wide spread of membership across the country – it would be great to have at least a few group members in every SNP branch. There’s a link to the membership page at the end of this post. Please join us if you believe, as we do, that the current (in)actions by the SNP leadership are jeopardising Scotland’s return to independence.

Policy development: There’s been a lot of discussion on policy and other topical matters over the last week, and we have just started the work of collaborative policy development, it is too early to say yet how that is progressing. So we have not yet produced any resolutions for conference but we realise that this is an urgent task.

What is the main obstacle we need to overcome ? It’s clear – getting one or more resolutions heard at conference. The SNP’s policy-making process lacks proper democracy and favours the status quo. SNP policy is “made in conference”, but the party’s internal controls severely restrict genuine policy debate.

Because it seems likely that Plan B will be accepted as a resolution and debated, then the “normal” conference procedure would be that any alternative plans be discussed only in the form of amendments to the resolution concerning Plan B. That’s clearly an unsatisfactory process as PlanB (among other things) expresses a preference for the Section30 route, although I suspect the authors of PlanB would prefer that it didn’t.

Conference procedure needs to be changed in order to permit serious and urgent debate of a number of alternative plans for independence. My own preference would be to spend at least a day debating and possibly amending a maximum of say four alternative routes, and then having a vote to establish the chosen policy. Party democracy in action, no less – and I am sure that everyone would agree that the best route to independence is the most important topic for an SNP conference to consider and debate.

Discussion of the party’s single most important and urgent issue cannot be constrained by unsuitable and constraining conference procedures. If necessary the whole conference – the last one before next year’s crucial election – should be devoted to this single issue.

If you are an SNP member and interested in joining SNP Members For Independence, then here’s a link to the group’s Facebook membership page.


(Please don’t attempt to join if you’re not a current SNP member – you’ll be asked for some membership details before joining the group. If you’re not an SNP member and want to suggest policy alternatives then please email us to share your views.)

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  1. 04 10 20 12:56

    SNP Members For Independence | speymouth

  2. 04 10 20 13:00

    Leadership should welcome new ‘SNP Members for Independence’ group – Grant McKenzie

181 to “SNP Members For Independence”

  1. Ian Foulds says:

    well done and wishing you well. from an Independence supporter.

  2. Habib Steele says:

    This is encouraging.

  3. Asklair says:

    A footnote, I attended a post Indyref meeting in the high school in Inveraray, packed out. Michael Russell MSP took the roll to publish all our views and was the beginning of more meetings. Never happened, we are here today because of the inner SNP circle, their actions have put us in this position today, they are the problem not part of the solution. This is my opinion.

  4. kapelmeister says:

    Apostasy has crept into the SNP and become all but predominant in the years of Sturgeon’s regime. So many of her favourites and close confederates now openly boast of being far more interested in identity politics than in independence. That is because the boss is herself an apostate. An earlier clue was when she publicly regretted the word National in SNP.

    She should have been chucked out that very day for saying that.

  5. John Angus says:

    I don’t want to register on Facebook.
    A Twitter feed – or another alternative – would be welcomed.

  6. Bob Mack says:

    I wish you well Geoff. I have up my membership in frustration at the dormant tactics.

    Terrible to think it has come to this, but it has. Imagine members of an Independence party having to push the issue to the forefront of a conference.

    The glue that held the movement together slowly being neutralized by an emphasis on other unpopular policy instead.

    Good luck.

  7. stonefree says:

    “Our key aim is to change SNP policy on the best way to achieve independence. We recognise that independence can only be achieved in the next year or two by changing this crucial policy from within the party.”
    So at least 2 years down the road

    “Policy development: There’s been a lot of discussion on policy and other topical matters over the last week, and we have just started the work of collaborative policy development, it is too early to say yet how that is progressing. So we have not yet produced any resolutions for conference but we realise that this is an urgent task.”

    Why the hell should I personally believe you , next will be ,We are working hard and other cliches
    Tell you what, here is what you do
    You come down off all you high horses, and You as Member and YOUR CHUMS, get off your sorry backsides and TELL Sturgeon WHAT TO DO,
    You already know what to do about Murrell and the Wokists

    While you have had a certain courage in posting the article
    I believe you are misreading what regard former member(s) have for the Sturgeon Regime
    I have to add, “don’t leave pay the subscription” ,seriously that is what you’re asking, in order to pay Murrell an Co’s legal bills
    you’ve tanned in enough money

  8. Hatuey says:

    Well, sorry, but this sounds like a completely ridiculous thing to be talking about right now when your party leadership seems to be in the hands of a bunch of crooked skunks.

    I’ve never understood how some people are able to just ignore stuff like that and carry on as if everything is great. You see that a lot in domestic abuse cases.

    Get rid of the crooked skunks and you won’t need to apologise for wanting to discuss independence at conference.

    I’m not simply saying there’s an elephant in the SNP room. These things are definitely carnivores. And they’re very dangerous and desperate.

  9. Breeks says:

    Trying to be positive, but Scotland needs an EMERGENCY initiative to defend the Constitution of our Nation. We need decisive action BEFORE the end of December this year.

    I’m just tired beyond belief with political types dangling carrots and asking us to trust some new fangled tweak of our failed and impotent democracy, none of which can save Scotland from colonial subjugation, deregulation and the devastation of our national resources like our NHS, and plundering of our natural resources.

    The politicians have simply sat for too long as mute passengers, month after month, year after year, until Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution was systematically dismantled and the windows of opportunity for Scotland have been squandered, and are now closed.

    I feel totally dispirited, and completely detached from the SNP, and detached from the SNP trying to fix itself. It all arrives too late, and doesn’t undo Scotland’s despicable abandonment or the SNP’s capitulation to Westminster’s colonial subjugation.

    Scotland now needs an enraged Constitutional Lawyer with a clear sense of urgency, even declaring a state of emergency, to salvage something from the Constitutional train wreck which our dismal and ineffective politicians have presided over for years.

    That the SNP’s survival instinct is making a belated appearance is to be welcomed, but as far as I can see, the fight for Scotland is now Constitutional or bust. If you want something done properly, do it yourself. Don’t leave it to the Politicians who have already failed us, time and time again.

  10. kapelmeister says:

    I’m sorry Geoff, but to describe independence as an “issue”, when it used to be the party’s raison d’etre.

    Sturgeon has to go first of all. Then indy strategy can be decided.

  11. Andy White says:

    This is welcome, but I instinctively feel the party needs a change of leadership before the open debate that’s so needed can happen. I dropped my membership some 6 months ago. Part of me is glad to not be funding Peter Murrell’s annual salary, or psychological councilling for sex pests. I’m also aware, due to Dot’s comments in a recent podcast, that the current NEC are more committed to ‘equality’ than independence, which echoes the widely reported remarks of Rhiannon Spear. I fear that this re-engineering of the party’s purpose has largely been encouraged and facilitated by Ms Sturgeon, and I imagine attempts to recover lost ground will, as usual, be met with indifferent silence.

  12. Paul Garbett says:

    I will likely join this group but, in my opinion, if the group “do not think that independence can be achieved in any reasonable timescale by joining other pro-independence parties” there is a fundamental misunderstanding. I dshouldnt need to repeat the ‘maths’ thst this site has done to show exactly why it will. But lets keep talking eh?

  13. Good luck and beware infiltration.

    Any treaty can be absolved if it was seen that those that signed/voted for it were either bribed or coerced,

    i think we can safely say that covers those `Scots` that voted/signed our nation away.

    `Consent will also be invalidated if it was induced by the fraudulent conduct of another party, or by the direct or indirect “corruption” of its representative by another party to the treaty. Coercion of either a representative or the state itself through the threat or use of force, if used to obtain the consent of that state to a treaty, will invalidate that consent.`

    Articles 46–53 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties set out the only ways that treaties can be invalidated.

  14. gordon says:

    If anyone here is a member of this group could you ask the admin why I have been removed on the quiet, without any notice and it seems blocked. Strange way to run a group.

  15. Astonished says:

    Geoff – I am heartened by this. The writing is on the wall for the woke.

    How do I join as an SNP member but not a facebook member ?

    Hopefully some ex-members will re-join to help put the national back in the SNP, and rid us of the science-denying wokeratti.

  16. Republicofscotland says:

    Well said Mr Bush, good to see some pro-active intentions going on within the party faithful. More power to you and your group, I hope policy can be changed to accommodate independence one way or the other, what terrible thing to have to say.

  17. Liz says:

    I don’t do Facebook. I agree with Breeks, we urgently need a Constitutional backstop b4 the end of 2020.

    I’m not really interested in more talking shops, it’s too late for that.
    We need bravery, a vote of no confidence in the NEC at the very least IMO

  18. Livionian says:

    What’s the plan though? The SNP are clearly not doing a good job at furthering the likelihood of independence and obviously that needs to change. But what’s the plan? Nobody has communicated what the alternative courses of action are well enough imo

  19. Livionian says:

    Reminds me of the people’s front of Judea “calls for immediate discussion”

  20. David Holden says:

    My membership is hanging by a thread and am only hanging in there to have a say in the selection of a candidate for Argyll and Bute. I suspect I will be joining Mike Russel in retirement if the anointed one gets selected. We have two candidates that look very good on paper, the anointed one and a late runner so far. I am a newbie SNP member only joining after Indyref and it is the only party I have ever joined but watching members of 30 and 40 years walk away is depressing stuff. I am uneasy continuing to fund current crop of shysters on the NEC and if things continue the way they are I am gone. I doubt I will be joining the new group as do not do well in debates and tend to go all Wings , swear a lot and can be a bit blunt to put it mildly.I wish the new group all the best.

  21. Al-Stuart says:

    Brave effort.

    Geoff, I wish you well. My SNP membership card got cut up quite openly at the local branch meeting when our MSP along with the old guard clique parachuted in his favourite pal to stand for a local authority councillor vacancy. As dodgy as Tammany Hall.

    At the branch where I paid in so much money, we voted on everything: the raffle prize amount for fundraisers: voted on conference motions to protect three legged cats; voted on which guest speakers would be invited to “educate” us. Even voted on the type of biscuits to be bought for the next meeting.

    But we were denied a vote on who was to be the next SNP candidate for the local council.

    At that point I realised George Orwell was correct when he wrote Animal Farm. It applies equally to Sturgeon’s SNP as it does to Tony Blair’s New Labour and Boris Johnson’s Tory Party (strings pulled by Dominic Cummings).

    This sorry tail is one of millions and brings us all to the sad facts…

    All political careers end in failure.

    Power corrupts absolutely and…

    If you are lucky, you may come across two, maybe three politicians that put principle above their careers.

    Alex Salmond is why I started voting SNP. Nicola Sturgeon is why I stopped voting SNP.

    A very wise person on this website mentioned the vast swathes of enthused SNP supporters packed out halls to capacity (12,000 in one hall and a roaring acclamation for a new leader) as Nicola Sturgeon took over from the party rebuilt by Alex Salmond and brought to within 200,000 swing votes of achieving independence for Scotland.

    Six years after those glorious days when the SNP actually represented member who wanted Independence.

    I can’t help but wonder how many people would turn up to a conference hosted by Nicola NOW if there was a near-identical SNP conference SIMULTANEOUSLY hosted by Alex Salmond in an adjacent hall?

    Of course we are in times of Covid19 so that ain’t going to happen. As an alternate form of karma, we will soon see and forensically study the SNP accounts and find out whether the auditors are in deep dooo dooo.

    Best of luck Geoff. It might be an idea to get in touch with Alex Salmond or some of the heavy hitters like Kenny MacAskill and Joanna Cherry to help your decent endeavours.

  22. G H Graham says:

    Presumably, one has to be a party member to join? Sadly, many animated supporters of independence have abandoned their SNP membership in disgust.

    That such a group has formed at all is surely the pivotal evidence needed to convince even the most ardent supporters that Sturgeon has zero intention of achieving independence.

    The leadership’s determination to control the narrative & direction of travel (nanny state policies, social engineering, gender fluid regulations etc.) do absolutely nothing to advance Scotland one inch closer to independence.

  23. HighlanderMSP says:

    That the formation of such a group within the SNP could be thought of, let alone launched in earnest, is a pitiful indictment of where Clan Murrell has brought the Party, not 6 years ago this was inconceivable.
    The rapid and rancid rise of the wokerati clique, encouraged by Nicola and her hand-picked lieutenants, has transformed a Party of raw commitment with a sense of purpose into a pastel sludge of insipid rainbow sludge that is slowly enveloping the Party, reaching in to all corners, and suffocating the now dwindling flames of this who would still put Indy first.

    There was a podcast from Barrhead Boy this week featuring NEC member Dot Jessiman, a courageous lady that spoke openly and honestly about Nicola’s instructions regarding any mention of Indy and the unbelievable shenanigans of the NEC – the discussion of Joanna’s prospective candidacy for the Edinburgh Central Seat for Holyrood was a confirmation of everything we feared.

    The tenure of Mr & Mrs Murrell must be brought to a swift end if we are to see Indy in our lifetime, we’ve never been better positioned – the obstacle is the SNP Executive.

  24. CameronB Brodie says:

    That’s a relief, I thought my future was to be left in the hands of those intent on destroying the epistemic integrity of Scots law and culture, by assuming a legal position that articulates the traditional ethos of the English Torydum. The Tories have far more practice at destroying authenticity though, and go about it in more professional manner. ;(

    Rights and justice in international relations
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  25. kapelmeister says:

    As I’ve said on Wings before, La Republique En Marche won both control of the France’s National Assembly and the Presidency just a year after being founded as a party. That has to be an encouragement for a new pro-indy party.

    I know the counter argument; that France’s political party system has traditionally been fluid and Scotland has no such political culture, and so a new party in Scotland is not going to sky-rocket to success.

    I understand that counter argument. But consider the current situation in Scotland. Are we not experiencing a level of upheaval in our politics that qualifies the Scottish political scene to be identified, in the language of complexity science, as a dancing landscape?

    And in said science a dancing landscape can and usually does produce dramatic and swift changes.

  26. Johnny Martin says:

    Oh you so go so close Livonian and then showed your slip with the second comment!

    “Discuss alternatives” = “people’s front of Judaea”, eh? Anyone would think you just don’t want to hear alternatives. You must be asleep if you haven’t heard people talking alternatives just that one has to be nailed down as the chosen route, as Geoff implies.

    Where I think Geoff’s plan falls down is not in seeking an alternative, more that there will need to be something in reserve if the group’s plans fall on cloth ears and they are dismissed for a hearing at the conference as it’s all rather too urgent to go “oh well, never mind, we can always try next year’s conference”.

  27. Confused says:

    The relentless and resolute inaction by the SNP will bring Westminster to its knees; they will crack soon

    This is infinite dimensional chess on an infinite chessboard, wheels within wheels that we peasants cannot begin to grasp.

  28. Kate says:

    “ We recognise that independence can only be achieved in the next year or two by changing this crucial policy from within the party.”

    You do know that once BREXIT happens, on the 31st Dec, that on the 1st January the machinery is put in place to take control of the devolved nations. It is all too late, Plan B should have already been discussed & oven ready to go, as soon as the SNP hierarchy knew BREXIT was happening.

    I too was a long time member of the party, but I left due to the negativity of the present leadership, & the corrupt crew that has crept onto the NEC. And you are wrong about other Independence parties, you “should” be working WITH them, you Must know that almost 800,000 SNP votes were lost at the last election, allowing the likes of Annie LIAR Wells, to sit in the Parliament with a mere 200 votes.

    Now we have the BBCs (British Broadcasting for Conservatives) giving as much publicity to the new leader of their TORY scum in Scotland, yet he is FEART to stand on a constituency ticket, he wants parachuted in via the LIST vote.. Snp needs to work with the ISP, to ensure he does not get his seat that way.. But they won’t. Yet LABOUR work with TORIES all the time to take over councils that the SNP actually won. The also worked with the TORIES in 2017 to get rid of as many SNP Mps form the 2015 GE.

    SNP Leadership has let us down since 2015, when she had majorities in BOTH Parliaments, and her MPS could not even win one argument in WM, let alone gain an extra power. Scotland needs MORE than the SNP if it is ever to gain it’s INDEPENDENCE from a far right fascist regime that has taken over WM.

    Good luck on trying to get your voices heard at Conference. It jut isn’t going to happen.

    NICOLA Sturgeon & her corrupt lying Husband have not only Destroyed the SNP Party, but they have destroyed any chances we had of winning our INDEPENDENCE. Any change that needs to occur, means getting rid of them at the top, all the way down to the lying civil servants, then get rid of every single woker on the NEC.

    Use your votes to get rid of NICOLA, MURREL, EVANS, & the rest of the LYING torags, then bring in the only person with the GUTS & knowledge to #DISSOLVETHISUNION.. If it is good enough for ENGLAND to change it’s mind after 40yrs of a Union with the EU,when they still had 90% of All of their I dependence powers, it should be a shoe in for Scotland to get rid of a 300yr+ union that NEVER was. It was &nit is a DICTATORSHIP..

    The BUFFOON talks constantly of bring the military in to control the people during this COVID, but the truth is, he is warning us The military WILL be used to control the people once they read lis BREXIT is bad for them, & then to keep the devolved nations in their place, which is ON their knees to the fascist regimein WM..

  29. Ian McLean says:

    I, along with many others I guess, am deeply suspicious of Facebook. An alternative vehicle would be helpful.

  30. JayR says:

    Prospects of Sturgeon, Murrell and the NEC treating SNP Members for Indy as a proscribed group like 79 Group and banning it?

  31. Republicofscotland says:

    “As I’ve said on Wings before, La Republique En Marche won both control of the France’s National Assembly and the Presidency just a year after being founded as a party. That has to be an encouragement for a new pro-indy party.”

    Kapelmeister @1.40pm.

    Speaking of France, New Caledonia votes on its independence or not from France today, the result will be known later tonight.

    No now is not the time rhetoric from Macron.

  32. Achnababan says:

    I was a member for 40 years, and an occasional conference delegate of the SNP. I resigned last year because of Sturgeon.

    I wish this new group well but I fear this initiative will not succeed unless and until the Murrels are brought down.

    The policy route to independence is one thing we can argue over, but the corruption, mendacity and malicousness of the Murrells is simply unacceptable.

    I would like to join and vote for any party that puts independence at the top of their agenda.

  33. CameronB Brodie says:

    Scotland’s democracy will disappear under political leadership and legal practice that is hostile to the legal principles of “universality” and “equality in law”. Simples.

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  34. Frazerio says:

    Good luck. Ive said before, an eye opener early in the Salmond trial was that one of the accusers while seeking nomination to stand for election was if I recall correctly ‘soft towards independence’. Utterly preposterous, but indicative of how the SNP seems to be drifting.

  35. Sarah says:

    Kenny MacAskill HAS joined this group – as I mentioned on here several days ago.

    And to all those who say too little, too late; do something else instead of this – well, I imagine all the members on this group are all, as I am, working in our branches to get the word out as to how bad things are at the “top” of the party, and doing all we can to improve the party and re-focus on regaining nationhood for Scotland. And getting independence as soon as possible – I have been arguing for years that an advisory vote should be held PLUS covering all the other methods at the same time. Sadly my MP and MSPs haven’t agreed.

    To all those btl here who have left the party: rejoin. It is only a fiver for old folk like me. And say at your branch what you say here. Go on. It won’t kill you and surely it is better to try than not try at all?

  36. kapelmeister says:

    Republicofscotland @2:03

    The proposed name for the new state is Kanaky New Caledonia.

    Much more of Sturgeon and we’ll be Kacky Old Caledonia.

  37. Livionian says:

    Johnny Martin I do very much want alternative suggestions. I probably shouldn’t have used the people’s front of Judea example as it caused confusion about my stance, it was just a point about frustration with endless empty words and not enough action. I actually think that the solution has to come from out with the SNP. The grassroots needs to reclaim the independence movement. The SNP is institutionally very difficult to reform. Why bother, let’s make a clean break

  38. mike cassidy says:


    Here’s one of the SNP MPs doing the woke waltz

  39. Mist001 says:

    “Our key aim is to change SNP policy on the best way to achieve independence”

    So, it’s a pressure group within the SNP?

    Good luck with that.

  40. Morag says:

    I would join, but I don’t do Facebook. If it’s necessary to be a Facebook member to join, I’ll have to stay out.

  41. Sarah says:

    @ Al Stuart at 1.34 p.m.: Kenny MacAskill IS a member of SNP Members for Independence. He joined shortly after I did [must have thought to himeself, oh, if she did..!].

  42. Bob Mack says:

    The mechanisms to make all this meaningless are already in place. We have been completely outflanked. If the Internal Market Bill passed the HOP we are defeated. It’s as simple as that.

    The one saving grace would be as Breeks often highlights our sovereignty as a legal entity. Either it exists of it does not. If it does and is legally recognised then that puts the cat among the Westminster pigeons.

  43. Bob Mack says:

    Sorry typo. HOL.

  44. Shug says:

    Interestingly Boris did not say No despite being pushed but we need a plan B to keep the pressure on
    If they do say no and we move to plan B then when indy arrives they must be faced with the full Co sequences
    Trident ends the same day, why do we give the nuclear weapons in Scotland to certainly not them, power switch of and so on

  45. Dan says:

    Don’t use Facebook for it is the work of the devil so personally choose to BDS it.
    Presume methods along the lines of what Jim Fairlie has suggested in his several articles in the National earlier this year will be suggested in the group for consideration.

  46. stonefree says:

    Infiltration ?
    Scottish Review had two articles about the subject in 2013 warning of the probability
    One I’m certain was by Ian Hamilton The other I don’t know the writer.
    It may have been about the SNP NEC, Scottish Review seems to have a limited archive

  47. Shug says:

    Sorry who do we give them to

  48. George Moore says:

    Not interested in joining Facebook it was hard enough getting away. Is there another way to join?

  49. A C Bruce says:

    I wish you luck Geoff – you will need it.

    I gave up my SNP membership some time ago; they have had mandate after mandate but did nothing with them.

    A party for independence should leave no stone unturned in efforts to achieve independence. That does not describe the SNP since they are restricting what alternatives to S30 can be discussed at Conference. Is that a party going all out for independence? I don’t think so. Too many of them appear to be happy with the status quo and some candidates have actually said they are ok with devolution. Such people should be shown the door.

  50. Footsoldier says:

    I am definitely interested Geoff but I am not going anywhere near Facebook or Twitter so I suppose that rules me out along with more than a few others.

  51. Intractable Potsherd says:

    Good luck to this group. I am a member of the ISP now. As a list party, in order to achieve independence we need the SNP to be a) the majority party in Holyrood, and b) to actually pursue independence. If SNP Members for Independence can help produce a party ready to do that as soon as the election is done, then wonderful!

    However, remember that there are powerful vested interests determined to maintain the status quo. You are not going to find this easy, and you need to be prepared for all manner of dirty tricks, up to and including your group being banned and your memberships revoked. You need to have a plan to change the leadership as soon as possible – winning a vote of no confidence is really important.

  52. Andy Ellis says:

    I’d like to think Scotland could see it’s own equivalent of La Republique En Marche (not particularly their policies or platform, more its rapid establishment and electoral success) but I fear it may alreadt be too late.

    France has a different history and party political environment in any case.

    I think if Alex Salmond and Joanna Cherry announced next week they were setting up a new movement, then the SNP would rapidly find itself becoming the Irish Parliamentary Party de nos jours. It’d be wonderful to see the Sturgeonistas melt down if that happy day ever dawned.

    Sadly, I hae ma doots! 🙁

  53. Steve ashton says:

    Good luck with this initiative. If it succeeds I may even rejoin the snp. I left because of my perception of the horrendous treatment of Salmond, the NEC wokey shenanigans and the inertia on indy. Remove the indy blockage and I might be tempted to start sending membership fees again…. If I can be persuaded the funds would not be (mis) used paying lawyers to protect Mr Murrell…. I will be cheering you on from the outside.

  54. Colin Alexander says:

    I wish this group all the best. However, it is unlikely that I will join. I no longer want to be associated with the Murrell’s SNP. For me, it has become a toxic brand. Also, Facebook?

    I don’t think attempts at reform of the SNP can be achieved without first ridding the SNP of the Murrells and also their Praetorian Guard of Sturgeon / Murrell cronies. That would be a very long-term job, as MacAskill, Cherry and MacNeil are just three out many MPs and MSPs.

    Over 100 senior SNP politicians to 3 is a long shot.

    Corbyn and Momentum were forced to firefight within the party against the Blairite Red Tories as well as fight a hostile MSM and UK State and fight an election. They couldn’t do it. The Blairites won.

    I can’t say it would be the same with the SNP but, it would be an uphill battle. Too little, too late. Though, I hope I’m wrong about that.

    Not that I give a fig about the SNP but, there are many decent committed indy supporters within its ranks; it’s them I care about and our shared desire to see Scotland free from British Imperial rule.

    It’s time people accepted the reality:

    There is a political war for Scotland’s survival happening right now and the SNP is on the side of the British Empire.

  55. Andy Ellis says:

    @Colin Alexander

    That’s an interesting point: other than the 3 mentioned, what other MPs, MSPs and office holders do we know of that are firmly in that camp?

  56. Silentwitness says:

    Creating and managing an outlet for disagreement and anger is a key part of managing the narrative and advancing the take over is needed. Control and dissipate the opposition. I hope this group is not that, but a genuine rebellion.

  57. Wendy Wood says:

    I’d like to have joined this group but I left the SNP last year after attending the October conference. It was pretty obvious then that independence was just a carrot being dangled to lure the naive into voting for them again.

    The halls were stuffed with wee wokies flying their stupid flag, worshipping at the feet of their dear leader.

    My namesake had more courage and faith in an independent Scotland than most of the loathsome jobsworths in the current management of the party.

  58. Effijy says:

    I could only take small bites of Bojo on the Marr propaganda special earlier.

    I’m sick to death of this once in a generation crap.
    No Holyrood Bill was passed, nothing about it being
    adopted with our constitution or in any new legislation.

    He proposes as the SNP Leader at the time gave his opinion
    that it could be once in a generation so it must be set in stone.

    I suggest he revisits every bit of the Vow pledged to Scotland
    by every London based unionist party to see not a word of it
    Has even been set in playdoh.

    Boris himself promised that he would be found dead in a ditch
    if the UK hadn’t left the EU by October last year.
    You were still in the EU last November Boris so
    you must keep your word.

    I’m spending too much time looking in ditches for you and my spade isn’t
    getting any lighter!

  59. Confused says:

    “New Caledonia rejects independence from France for second time”

    – oh well. But it was closer than last time –

    THEY WILL HAVE ANOTHER GO IN 2022 ! (and they only need a simple majority)

    probably BEFORE we have another indyref#2

    France claims it “massively subsidises” the economy, but – NC has 1/4 of the world’s nickel, plus other metals, presumably fishing.

  60. twathater says:

    Geoff I am Not a member of ANY political party, BUT I have been on this site and many others pleading and begging SNP members to TAKE BACK CONTROL OF THEIR PARTY to NO avail, which to me indicates that the general membership are EITHER happy with the gradualist approach of NS and others and are quite content to let THEIR party be infiltrated and CONSUMED by entryists whose approach to indy is as LUKEWARM as the current leader , OR they believe that independence will fall into our laps because WM WILL be shamed into it, never mind ALL PM’s saying otherwise

    As others have posted it is NOT the YES community that is the PROBLEM it is the SNP, ITS LEADER and its membership that is BETRAYING independence voters, I understand many SNP members have made complaints individually and either been ignored or dismissed, the TRUTH is that the hierarchy are NOT LISTENING and unless the MEMBERSHIP act collectively and OUST Sturgeon her husband and her woke coterie ALL is LOST

    INDEPENDENCE now needs a fighter like Joanna Cherry to take on WM re the Imperial Market Bill and the BREACHES of the TOU and if that means through the international courts then so be it, NS is a time waster

  61. Bob Costello says:

    Any attempt to wrest any element of control from the present leadership has to be welcomed but the ideal situation is that the present leadership who seem to be tainted by accusations of conspiracy and blatend dishonesty should be replaced. I cant help feeling that this initiative will lead to the situation where we go through this next election with just another layer of hope added on, but with the same leaders who have led us a merry dance for the past 6 years.
    If it is the case, as stated in this piece that even with this intervention it is not envisaged that there will be any move towards independence for at least another tw years then I really do not see why it should not be a streight choice between a new leadership or a new party.
    I feel that there are too many skeletons in both sturgeon and Murrel’s cuppboards and as long as they are at the top of the SNP there will never be independence.

  62. Daisy Walker says:

    I read this article, and initially thought good, at last, until I got to the bit about amendments, to amendments…. blah, blah, blah.

    Once again – and in fairness to the author, I don’t believe it is being done deliberately – but once again I am reminded of New Labour (and in the case of Brexit) at the 11th hour, some within start making all the right noises. Too little, too late.

    Under the current SNP leadership – a ring fenced fund for IndyRef2 – has not been accounted for in the timescale legally required. In spite of numerous requests.

    This leaves them open to accusations of incompetence – at best – and financial irregularities / illegalities – at worst.

    A ring fenced account just has to sit there doing nothing. In terms of producing the accounts for same, one would simply have to print off the bank balance.

    This means NS is either grossly incompetent (the buck stops with the leader, particularly over finances) or corrupt.

    Meanwhile the NEC has not even being discussing Independence all this time, as it became riddled with Identify zealots who are not interested in Indy, and a good few of the old timers are leaving.

    The SNP in its current guise are doing EVERYTHING it possibly can to prevent the voters in Scotland being able to vote for someone who is pushing for Indy. Whether by Referendum of the Ballot Box. And this, they most certainly are doing, deliberately.

    We have until 331/12/20 to find a lawyer to contest the legality of the Internal Market Bill – which will buy us 4 years to fight same at the EJC, and possibly (but only possibly) stave off the power grab, keep Holyrood open and pertinent, until the Holyrood Election.

    I hope your new pressure group within the SNP comes to this conclusion very quickly and wish you all the best, but one thing you need to do, is buddy up with 2 other members you trust and develope a code word between yourselves for if/when you become nobbled, and safety plan thereafter.

  63. Big Jock says:

    I already joined this group.

    However one thing is clear to me. Unless we get rid of Murrell we are screwed.

    It’s rarely that I genuinely hate someone. However Murrell could be the exception.

  64. Ron Maclean says:


    In 1982 Gordon Wilson, then leader of the SNP, presented the following resolution to Conference:

    ‘This Conference demands the immediate disbandment of all organised political groups within the Party; …’
    ‘This resolution defeated by 413 votes to 189 a counter-motion by Alex Salmond seeking to remit the decision to a Special National Council.’ (Wilson, 2009 p213).

    The resolution was aimed at the 79 Group and eventually resulted in the expulsion of Alex Salmond and other notables from the SNP.

  65. Graeme says:

    I can’t join this group because I’ve lost all my membership details (even though they still get my money) which is maybe a good thing because otherwise I would have resigned my membership by now

  66. Graeme says:

    Its a bizarre world we live in SNP members for Independence I never though it would ever come to this but here we are it’s a bit like Turkeys against christmas a noble cause nonetheless.

  67. newburghgowfer says:

    Presumably the online conference will take place in Bute House. Nicola can be in the Kitchen & Peter can shout from the Dining room.
    It will be pretty pointless of us plebs going online as all decisions seem to be made by only these 2 and I can’t see our thoughts being taken seriously. They don’t give a monkeys about getting Scottish Independence, the Gravy train is flowing full stop for these 2!!

  68. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    There have been 1 or 3 comments on this page today, alluding to “SNP = Labour”.

    I’ll just paste the comment I posted yesterday on the previous page, to absolutely no response.

    Brian Doonthetoon says:
    3 October, 2020 at 11:01 am

    A decent read from the New Statesman. Here’s a quote from it:-

    “Since the collapse of the Labour vote in Scotland – or rather its siphoning off to the SNP under Sturgeon, who posed as a non-nationalist leader of a social democratic Scottish Labour Party mark II – the Conservatives have become the dominant party of the Union.”

  69. John H. says:

    I’m still a member, but only because I am hoping against hope that sometime, somehow, I’ll get a chance to vote for a new leader. Someone who actually believes in independence.

  70. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Serious question –

    When was the last time Murrell was seen in person?

    How do we know he hasn’t bolted overseas?

  71. Sarah says:

    @BDTT: good point. It seems AS didn’t spot this flaw in NS – or he thought she would accept guidance from her peers?

  72. Sarah says:

    @ Graeme: to find out your membership details go onto the SNP website, click on log-in, type in your email address and then ask to change your password.

    I know because I had to do that yesterday so I could apply to be a branch delegate to Conference. Applying means an email to the branch secretary – 1st come, first served apparently so now I can vote for NEC members etc etc.

  73. Kevan Gordon says:

    I joined the Facebook Group, spent a few minutes scrolling through the posts only to find that they consist of the usual guff that can be found anywhere else on Social Media. Struggled to find anything that even looked like it could result in anything constructive developing. So, I have left the group.

  74. Joe says:

    Ok ive got a deal for anybody who might be reading with some political power:

    Id like to swap my:

    1: white privilege
    2: male privilege
    3: right to vote


    1: Scottish version of the US 1st amendment
    2: Scottish version of the US 2nd amendment

    That would suit me fine. How about it?

  75. Graeme says:

    Thank you Sarah I’ll do that

  76. Dan says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood

    Peter Murrell now Self IDing as Keyser Soze in an attempt to avoid scrutiny.

    Meanwhile the occasional glance at Monsier Wishart’s twitter appears to be stuck on repeat.

    The SNP only hold power in Holyrood because people didn’t vote SNP 1 & 2. The Greens plus possibly other party’s supporters presumably tactically voted for them with their first vote, and their second votes not being for the SNP is the reason they managed to form a coalition government with the Greens.

    Is he too fuckin stupid to comprehend that recent SNP behaviour, along with pushing policies the electorate don’t want are the reasons folk are now looking for other options.
    It might be an idea to sort YOUR Party out Pete, rather than castigate the electorate for having the temerity to question voting for parties that will push policies the punters don’t want imposed on them. Just sayin’.

  77. Alastair says:

    Would like to be involved but I don’t do social media. Is there another route?

  78. Sarah says:

    @ Graeme: 🙂

  79. Beaker says:

    As an outsider to all political parties, I think this venture, positive as it is, could cause a major rift in the party. As Ron gave the example above, it could result in expulsions from the party.

    Now that may not be a bad thing, as it would give the opportunity for MPs and MSPs who are unhappy with the current leadership to jump ship.

    This could end up costing the SNP votes, and possibly a lot of them, depending if those expelled sit as independents (or a new party or whatever). That may also split the vote and allow the other parties in. Much depends on who rises as a leader.

    While this may not be welcome, if a referendum is delayed a bit longer but with a revitalised party, then in the long run it may be beneficial.

  80. Tartan Tory says:

    Just as there are 5% of Scottish Tories who voted Yes in 2014, I am personally aware of a few long-standing SNP members who actually voted No!

    ‘SNP Members For Independence’ does sound like a ridiculous phrase, but you know what they say about assumptions….

  81. Andy Ellis says:


    The current leadership of the SNP aren’t going to deliver a referendum though are they? The only way progress will be made via the SNP is if there is a palace coup which displaces not only Sturgeon and her husband, but most of the NEC as well. We can live in hope of course, but nothing we’ve seen in the past few years suggests that is at all likely.

    The alternative looks increasingly likely to be a full fat “real” independence party, not just a list-only party like the ISP (tho’ I think we may have no viable alternative at Holyrood 2021 given the timescale involved). Things could progress faster and further if a new movement attracts big hitter like Salmond and Cherry, but that can’t be assumed either. Finance will also be an issue, particularly if there are no wealthy backers: the party will have to rely on crowd funding and membership subscriptions. It’s feasible, but not easy.

  82. dakk says:

    Nice idea Geoff.

    Might complement Stuart’s SNP bad scorched earth policy quite well in our saving of Scotland.

    Or even be Scotland’s saviour.

    Who knows what the fucks going on with anything nowadays.

  83. Sarah says:

    How to email MSPs? I want to email all SNP MSPs but it will have to be on their non-scot gov email address because the subject is the internal SNP problems. Does anyone know how to find their snp addresses? They are NOT on the SNP website.

  84. Ron Maclean says:

    The new group could launch a leadership challenge.

    ‘A candidate for Leader or Depute Leader must have the nominations of at least a hundred members who must be drawn from at least twenty branches.’

  85. Breeks says:

    Andy Ellis says:
    4 October, 2020 at 6:50 pm

    ….The alternative looks increasingly likely to be a full fat “real” independence party, not just a list-only party like the ISP (tho’ I think we may have no viable alternative at Holyrood 2021 given the timescale involved).

    Sadly, I think that’s correct.

    However I still nurture the forlorn hope that Martin Keatings wins enough to humiliate the SNP with the Section 30 bullshit, and either that spirals out of control into a full blown Constitutional Test Case disputing UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, or, there’s a big bust up between Sturgeon and Joanna Cherry, and Joanna Cherry, irrespective of what the SNP says or does, grabs the bull by the horns and goes for a Constitutionally based dispute relating to Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation.

    The politicians have fkd about with this for too long getting absolutely nowhere. Frankly, I don’t think the competence is there. And I don’t see the influx of more spoiled brats from the Wokerati being particularly helpful either.

    What a mess. Hope you’re pleased with yourself Sturgeon.

  86. James Che. says:

    Not another dangle carrot party, not another party promising something somewhere somehow some other time perhaps.
    The snp have had a mandate and still do have,
    It was the people of Scotland and all its bloggers that raise the surge for independence,
    You hardly ever saw anyone from the top of snp in the Indy marches, or volunteering to talk about the marches when on air. Total silence.
    The snp should not have cut themselves loose from the grass roots movement, because then they just became like any other political party in Britain whose mental capacity shrinks when they only listen to themselves,
    And then being taken over by labour and woke politics, I can hear the death beetle,
    If you want to help then join the ASP party, (as soon as possible) then we may have action on saving Scotland before December 2020.

  87. Hatuey says:

    dakk: “Who knows what the fucks going on with anything nowadays.”

    I do.

    Anybody that contemplates a future with Sturgeon remaining as leader of the SNP beyond say Christmas is basically insane. And I don’t trust anyone that premises anything on that.

    I don’t know how anyone can come on here with a proposition that seems to assume she’ll continue as leader and expect to be taken seriously.

    Rumsfeld’s famous line about known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns should be at the forefront of every discussion about the SNP and its leadership right now.

    The stuff we don’t know definitely outweighs what we do know – and that’s intentionally the case – but if we were honest we’d admit we know enough.

  88. Beaker says:

    @Andy Ellis says:
    4 October, 2020 at 6:50 pm
    “The current leadership of the SNP aren’t going to deliver a referendum though are they? The only way progress will be made via the SNP is if there is a palace coup which displaces not only Sturgeon and her husband, but most of the NEC as well.”

    True. It’s not something that can be done overnight.

    There is one major factor to take into account for now:

    COVID – no one has a clue what is going to happen next. However, a blatant attempt to dethrone Sturgeon in the middle of a pandemic plays into the hands of the media and other parties as follows:

    Rebel group seen as not giving a shit about the pandemic and only interested in independence at any cost.

    Sturgeon forced into a compromise, opening her up to the argument above. By a compromise I mean something concrete.

    Sturgeon is forced to resign (unlikely, but anything is possible this year). Whoever replaces her has a hell of a job reuniting the party. More importantly they will have to explain to the media and Scotland why they are so desperate to replace her. Once again exposes them to the claims above.

    COVID is Sturgeon’s trump card (no pun intended). No matter what is thrown at her, she will respond with the argument that COVID is her prime concern for now.

    I’ll be honest, the only way at the moment that I can see her removed, is if the SNP suffer a disaster next May. Unless something else is waiting in the sidelines.

  89. Republicofscotland says:

    Dan @6.26pm.


    Wishart is doing what any party loyalist would do asking us to give his party all our votes one and two.

    However Wishart must know that by giving the SNP our list vote as well, that, that will allow the Murdo Fraser’s and Annie Wells back into Holyrood.

    In effect Wishart is putting his party’s interests ahead of independence by asking for our list votes, ergo damaging the very reason as to why the party exists in the first place, and that is to provide us with independence. Any SNP MSP or MP who asks us to give the SNP our list votes, isn’t really interested in Scottish independence. We must pack Holyrood out with independence minded MSP’s.

    We must not give the SNP our list votes.

  90. AberdeenPict says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    4 October, 2020 at 6:07 pm
    Serious question –
    When was the last time Murrell was seen in person?
    How do we know he hasn’t bolted overseas?

    Ian, a bit off topic but it is something that clicked with me this morning regarding the whereabouts of Mr Murrell. As usual, I was awoke quite early this morning and was watching a documentary of Americas fight with Japan during the second world war in the pacific. Needless to say, as we know, both sides lots countless amounts of soldiers and Sevillians. ,

    So America, obviously dropped the two atomic bombs. It was only after this, that every single person in Japan had heard their emperors voice for the very first time in their life, saying they are defeated, yet they were willing to die for him, be kamikazes, commit hara-kiri. I can honestly say, and I am not being funny about this, after watching that documentary, I have actually heard Emperor hiroheto make more speached than Mr Murrell.

  91. dakk says:

    Liverpool losing 7-2 to Villa just now.

    Covid is rampant in Liverpool area just now.

    First time in EPL history reigning champions have conceded 7.

    Life in the time of coronavirus.

  92. James Che. says:

    I am not against the fm. I am not for her, if she delivers what Scotland wants and needs before it is too late.
    If Westminster decide to negotiate away Scotland’s waters and fisheries within the Brexit deal, it would cause chaos for Scotland if we were then to become independent,
    As we are within uk right now, that is equivalent to us giving uk permission to have our coast, end of treaty with EU.
    Now become independent and try get them back, do you think the EU would be so friendly to Scotland. It would have to much to lose, and the deal had been done in their eyes with the whole uk.
    The only possibility of upsurping that treaty deal is by ending the treaty of the union, ie, the first treaty would possibly have legal presidence, and a reset button.

  93. Ron Maclean says:

    Nicola Sturgeon’s priority as First Minister is Covid. Her priority as leader of the SNP should be independence.

  94. Tony O'Neill says:

    I I smell a diversion tactics at play.

  95. Fionan says:

    Aberdeen Pict, an interesting observation, re never having heard Murrell’s voice. However he is not an emperor, far less our emperor. He is not at the top if our country’s hierarchy though he might like to think he is. He is simply an administrator and should be of no more importance than the dreadful Leslie Evans – and both should have been sacked for incompetence after the AS stitch-up fiasco.

    As far as I am aware, and I stand to be corrected, America dropped the bombs AFTER the Japanese had signalled their intent to surrender and had asked to open discussion around that. It wouldnt be Murrells place to tell us after WM drops its bombs in january that we are defeated, it would be sturgeon’s job, and I do think we have heard quite enough of her fake voice.

  96. AberdeenPict says:

    Fionan says:

    Fionan, yes, you are correct historically and thanks for pointing that out. What I was getting at, and as you say, Murrell is no Emperor, but can’t he even get off his fat lazy arse and say hello to the troops before their impending doom that is on the horizon after Brexit and all the rest.

    He is pathetic, a non-existent figment of someone’s imagination.

  97. Dan says:

    @ Ros

    There’s a lot to play out yet. We need to see who actually makes it through the internal SNP selection process and become the constituency candidates.
    This will further determine the trajectory the party is committing to. Then there’s conference events to add to that.
    With the candidates and the result of conference known, polling may begin to change as awareness is raised across the electorate, along with other factors…

    Will decent but ultimately rejected for constituency candidacy personnel then consider standing for an other Pro-Indy party or as independents on the Regional List, as there is little chance if polling remains similar to what is is now that they would become an SNP List MSP in 6 out of the 8 regions.

    So lots to occur yet, and all the while the clock ticking down towards the end of the EU transition period…

    FML, it makes me regret and ask why did I bother spending far too much of my time campaigning since the EU vote that created the material change in circumstances that was to afford us another bite at the Indy cherry, only for the mandates to be pissed away. I’m kicking myself I didn’t just sell up and make use of the freedom of movement of people and capital to get the fuck out of this McSkipfire.
    It’s getting evermore difficult to firefight against the indefensible shite being produced by our own side, who seem capable of producing more auto vehicle wrecks than that famous 11′ 8″ bridge… 🙁

  98. Mjack says:

    Great group to set up. We need to remember to be flexible to sircumstances and not give everything away to the opposition but if the snp isnt at its core an independence party, what is it?

  99. Not a lot to say.I do not see the need for this fiction 30,we have asked twice,proof enough that we have tried more or less.Over 300 years of becoming members of a LONDON BRANCH PARTY we have morphed,with all the changes that we should not have agreed to.The latest being This Internal Market ends legally?the Treaty of Union.Scots law is Equal to English,they have not the rights to implement laws to suit England.It also ignores the Good Friday Agreement,and International Law,surely they would back us.Surely this Tory Dictatorship is illegal,elected with foreign money (Russia)does this give them access to the London Laundromat!We also have our original Parliament not devolved!!

  100. CameronB Brodie says:

    There are those who appear desperate to punt insurrection and FUD, without suggesting realistic, practical, or tangible alternatives. So what’s their game? Would a stable owner shoot their prize steed if it became ill, or would they call the vet in and try to regain the health and utility of their prize steed? Yes the leadership have us up the wrong dreel, but that does not necessarily mean the party needs to be dismembered. We just need to set a team of legal compliance bods in to sort the NEC out. They could possibly do the same to our judicial system if they have the time, and we can crowd-fund the effort.

    Interpreting the International Right to Health in a Human Rights-Based Approach to Healt

  101. Alf Baird says:

    A majority of Scotland’s elected national representatives could give notice prior to Dec 31 that Scotland wishes to dissolve the present UK parliament, and halt Scotland’s EU withdrawal.

    Scotland’s UK withdrawal might then be confirmed via the Holyrood election next May.

    If Scottish sovereignty exists we might as well see it in action.

  102. Big Jock says:

    There can be no move forward while the Murrells remain in charge.

    We cannot get independence until both are gone. The biggest obstacle to independence is them. Sturgeon is duping us all. The empress has no clothes.

    Our first strategy should be to remove the pair if fraudsters.

  103. Big Jock says:

    Ron 9.13.

    If you heard Sturgeon’s daily Covid update on Friday. This is exactly what she said: ” Fighting the Covid virus is all I care about , it’s all that matters at the moment”.

    She is doing feck all about independence. She is not the leader of the independence movement. She has now openly admitted it.

  104. AberdeenPict says:

    CameronB Brodie says:
    4 October, 2020 at 9:49 pm
    We just need to set a team of legal compliance bods in to sort the NEC out. They could possibly do the same to our judicial system if they have the time, and we can crowd-fund the effort.

    Ok, point taken. who would you suggest heads up this legal team? bearing in mind you have said pretty much over the last few years that Scotland has no professional lawyers as they are parochial and subservient to Westminster Dogma and English culture and Brexitism. If we want a way out of this, I believe we will have to have some legal claim, how do we do that, in a practical way moving forward?

  105. Mist001 says:

    The Murrells have to go out at some time. They can’t stay in their house 24/7 not speaking to each other, so where do they go?

    Nobody sees them in nightclubs, pubs, nobody even sees them in supermarkets or shops!

    So, what’s the story there?

    No Paparazzi in Scotland? No mobile phones?

    Why are they never spotted?

  106. CameronB Brodie says:

    I think you might been trying to put words into my mouth. Our legal Establishment is criminally biased against the justice of the Natural law, but that doesn’t mean all Scottish lawyers are Tories, or hostile towards international law. Or both, as appear to be the case with most of our judiciary.

  107. Daisy Walker says:

    Meanwhile cast a look over on for the latest take on Brexit.




    Features high on the EU’s list for negotiation.

    The EU is negotiation on its own behalf – and looking to gobble up Scotland’s fishing. And England is going to use it.

    Once the Spanish get a hold of it, it will be fished out in a decade, just like they’ve done to Ireland.

    If we are going to lodge a legal complaint about the legality of the Brexit, Withdrawl Agreement, Internal Bill – I hope to god some of our legal experts are primed and ready to go.

    As for anyone worrying about Covid – worry about it even more when our NHS is sold down the drain to Donald. Nicola should be fighting that as much as Covid.

  108. Big Jock says:

    Mist- God only knows.Everything is shrouded in mystery.

    They obviously don’t discuss normal husband and wife stuff. Like what the feck were those Whatsapp messages about Peter!

    I see Ruth took Nicola’s advice and has now written to Murrell directly. It’s all over the Herald. Nicola only has herself to blame for not answering that one.

    Maybe a divorce is imminent.

  109. CameronB Brodie says:

    Honestly folks, you’d better learning how to defend yourself through the law, as all bets appear to be off under the current Scottish judicial system. The rule-of-law no longer applies in Scotland, apparently. So our democracy has no future if we don’t bring our legal Establishment too heel, and force them to respect the universal principles of legal doctrine. Rather than supporting British nationalism and xenophobic English cultural narcissism.

    Health Systems & Reform Volume 2, 2016 – Issue 1: Prince Mahidol Award Conference 2016: Priority Setting for Universal Health Coverage

    The International Right to Health: What Does It Mean in Legal Practice and How Can It Affect Priority Setting for Universal Health Coverage?

  110. AberdeenPict says:

    CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry, cam, but I am not putting you on the spot, or putting words in your mouth, but what I am asking is, who would you trust to be our legal guardians? Kenny MacAskill has put his head above the parapet on here, as has Geoff Bush just now. But I can’t see them taking on the legal case, perhaps JC could do as that is her sphere of knowledge and influence. What I am asking is, as you know more about the law than I do, who would you trust or recommend?

  111. Effijy says:

    The BBC link shows UK Covid related deaths at close to 65,000.
    This includes deaths above the UK 5 previous year average.

    Fairly obviously there is a case for any formula to include a reduction in deaths
    due to commuting being drastically reduced and therefore less accidents.
    I’d also suggest less deaths would occur due to millions being on furlough and
    not having the usual stress levels that aggravates many others fatal conditions.

    Would 70,000 UK Deaths be the reality for the Tories Cremation ready dealings?

  112. Dan says:

    Hey Cam, with all the talk aboot law, did you catch this from Joanna Cherry a couple of days ago re. The UK Attorney General.


  113. ElGordo says:

    Not until the terms of brexit are known.

    Or else what is the choice for people?

    I kinda get the enthusiasm, but a wee bit of realism, less than 2 months to go.

    In the meantime try rediscovering the love and the humour that got us here.

  114. CameronB Brodie says:

    Scots will always be slaves of Westminster, marginalised from political participation and robbed of legal identity, until we bring our legal Establishment too heel. Their “ambivalence” towards “natural justice” betrays a heartless lack of concern and empathy for the most vulnerable, and makes them unsound as guardians of Scots law. The influence they exert over Scottish culture is simply not healthy, In fact, their ingrained British nationalism poses an existential threat to the continued viability of Scottish culture.

    Remember Westminster is not above the Common law, though it might have convinced a lot of folk otherwise, even if they should have known better. The yoonyawn was only politically tolerable while Westminster at least notionally glanced towards the Natural law, and so was able to support cultural pluralism and a cultural dialogue between Scotland and England. Westminster respected the Natural law by complying with the legal obligations set out in the Treaty of Union, which is part of international law. Westminster has turned its’ back on law and order though, and has completely re-interpreted the constitution from a political agreement into Scotland’s bill of sale, yet there’s barely a peep of objection coming from our legal officers.

    Life really sucks when you live in a neo-fascist state that is supported by your judicial system. 🙁

    Annual Review of Political Science Vol. 1:75-93 (Volume publication date June 1998)



    The study of compliance with international agreements has gained momentum over the past few years. Since the conclusion of World War II, this research agenda had been marginalized by the predominance of realist approaches to the study of international relations. However, alternative perspectives have developed that suggest that international law and institutions are important influences on the conduct of international politics.

    This review examines four perspectives and assesses their contribution to understanding the conditions under which states comply with international agreements. Despite severe conceptual and methodological problems, this research has contributed significantly to our understanding of the relationship between international politics and international law and institutions.

    Key Words?

    international law; international institutions; international cooperation; international authority.

  115. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

    D Trump never ceases to amaze me.HE IS THE MOST NARCISSISTIC self indulgent twat i have ever seen.

    Going out from hospital for a photo op in front of a 100 or so dafties outside when hundreds of thousands of his citizens have died a painful death. The man is scum,pure scum.

  116. CameronB Brodie says:

    Nice one. No I hadn’t spotted it, though it does beg the question. Why was recourse not made to international law the minute Brexit was enabled in law? We have constitutional and human rights, even if Westminster and our politicians are blind to them or do not wish to recognise them. International human rights law is powerful and there for a purpose. It will only remain healthy and useful if it is NOT ignored though, as is the want of British politics and British constitutionalism.

  117. Achnababan says:


    Yes, the Japanese had indicated they were willing to surrender…. but not to the US – to the Russians. That’s why the Yanks dropped the big bombs. Fear of communism! So many innocents died.

    Trump is not the only arsehole that has been in charge of that country.

  118. shug says:

    Douglas Ross is a poor wee soul.
    He thinks he has been given a big and important job when in reality he is being used as a useful fool. He will never be allowed to make a significant decision and he appears well out his depth.
    Soon enough he will make what he thinks is a good suggestion and the real bosses in London will slap him down.
    When we get indy he will be cast aside by both sides

  119. CameronB Brodie says:

    If only our law officers respected and supported the universal principles of legal doctrine, instead of British nationalism and the English legal principle of Parliamentary sovereignty, which is legal doctrine that is alien to Scots law. Yet our legal officers are determined to torture Scots law so that it comply to the will of this alien legal doctrine. That’s how much of a mind job British nationalism has done on the Scottish psyche, even our law officers are against us.

    Using International Human Rights Law to Guarantee the Right to Health: a Brazilian Experience

  120. CameronB Brodie says:

    Just so folk don’t get the wrong idea, I’m not punting the decriminalisation of the jazz cabbage, I’m pointing to international health law, which is a powerful source of rights protection and which I thought relevant given our circumstances.

    Review of International Studies, Volume 38 Issue 3
    The human right to health and the struggle for recognition

    Global health, human rights, and the law

    Right to Health: Sources of International Human Rights Law

  121. Northman says:

    James Che. @ 9.10 pm
    “Now become independent and try get them back, do you think the EU would be so friendly to Scotland. It would have to much to lose, and the deal had been done in their eyes with the whole uk.
    The only possibility of upsurping that treaty deal is by ending the treaty of the union, ie, the first treaty would possibly have legal presidence, and a reset button.”

    If Scotland becomes free before 31/12 you’ll be safe.

    If you’re not, ending the ToU might entail you to get your waters back from the EU, if they recognize your freedom.
    There is a problem with this though.

  122. Al-Stuart says:

    Hi Sarah,

    Many thanks for that. I didn’t know that Kenny MacAskill had joined.

    My brain is still trying to get around the dissonance within a title that needs to say what should be blindingly obvious…

    SNP Members For Independence.

    What do the other lot call themselves…

    Toxifying the

    Otherwise known as T.W.A.T.S.

    Lead by…


    With a dose of this overpromoted, gravitationally challenged (PC = fat), reflective dome (PC = bald) piece of overpaid excrement…


    You have to hand it to the British Establishment: they have done a gold and platinum grade job of Royally screwing up the SNP and scunnering Indy folk for the next decade.

    It’s only Stuart Campbell, Craig Murray and Kenny MacAskill that are keeping me from NEVER voting for anyone ever again. That would be an insult to all those who fought and died to be enfranchised. But Murrell The Beard, Sturgeon The Tractor and yon Wee Fat Banker fae Skye who helped kill off CharLes Kennedy need marching to the guillotine.

    I really want to vote SNP next May, but I WILL BE DAMNED IF I am voting FOR a party that is enacting what George Orwell warned us about in 1984 (the book, not the year).

    Sara says…

    @ Al Stuart at 1.34 p.m.: Kenny MacAskill IS a member of SNP Members for Independence. He joined shortly after I did [must have thought to himself, oh, if she did..!].

  123. CameronB Brodie says:

    Environmental law is also a rich source of rights protection, though Scots apparently have no legal route to protect the biological integrity of our environment or ourselves. Brexit ensures Scots will experience a significant reduction in the legal protection of our environmental, and the potential to be healthy.

    Democracy, the rule-of-law, and the Right to Health, can NOT be separated and still remain functional, so either we bring our law officers to heel, or there is simply no sustainable future for Scotland as a nation.

    Health and Human Rights Working Paper Series No 1
    Human Rights, Health & Environmental
    Protection: Linkages in Law & Practice

    A Background Paper
    for the
    World Health Organization

  124. Beaker says:

    @Achnababan says:
    4 October, 2020 at 11:40 pm
    “Yes, the Japanese had indicated they were willing to surrender…. but not to the US – to the Russians. That’s why the Yanks dropped the big bombs. Fear of communism! So many innocents died.”

    You really do need to study the history of Japan from about 1930 onwards. The Japanese were split in various factions, including a group of die hard fanatics who wanted to keep fighting even after the Nagaski bomb.

    As for innocents, go and do some research into the atrocities carried out in the name of the Emperor.

    The Japanese surrendered only after Russia declared war on Japan and invaded Machuria. The Japanese terms were that the Emperor would remain. Stalin would not have accepted that had it been left to him.

    The US did not drop the bomb primarily because of the Russians and communism. They were faced with an invasion of the Japanese mainland, and after the horrendous casualty rates on Okinawa it was not something they desired. Also, at the time, the full effects of a nuclear blast on a city were not known, as in the physical effects on those that survived.

  125. CameronB Brodie says:

    Less haste more speed. Sorry….”Brexit ensures Scots will experience a significant reduction in the legal protection of our environmental, and our potential to be healthy”. There goes the neighbourhood. Easy come easy go, eh?

    ….And all to accommodate England’s cultural insularity and sense of cultural entitlement, which pretty much defines the very DNA of Westminster. Brexit simply doesn’t even look at the constitutional doctrine of PROPORTIONALITY, let alone respect it. Yet here we are as our law offices don’t appear to understand how constitutional law works.

    The Right to a Healthy Life or the Right to Die Polluted?: The Emergence of a Human Right to a Healthy Environment Under International Law

  126. Northman says:

    Big Jock @ 9.52 pm
    “Our first strategy should be to remove the pair if fraudsters.”

    Obviously. And the same goes for most of the NEC.

    And it is imperative.

    They have considerable “influence” over vetting, banning and so forth. With minimal risks. Then consider the stitch-up of Salmond. I don’t believe it will be an easy task. But commendable.

    First and foremost, nobody have to wait for a NEC approved conference to decide anything. Democracy is ground up! It’s what it means. People rules.

    Reattaching SNP to democracy, means reattaching the branches to the populace, and align purpose and candidates. The present NEC will oppose this, but what matters is this: In the end people may choose whom their candidate is, at most the NEC can only make the chosen candidate be not SNP, as long as the people use their right.

    Every Scot is sovereign. At least until until the end of the year, and possibly longer.

    Beware: Attempts at democracy will be resisted. As marchers, bloggers, and other heroes have experienced.

  127. Ronald Fraser says:

    The National,,, twitter

  128. Northman says:

    Geoff Bush @ Article

    So Scots should:
    Join or remain on Facebook
    Join or remain in SNP

    to hope the NEC allow you to speak at conference.

    In order for the NEC to let you oust them and what they stand for?

  129. CameronB Brodie says:

    Want to sort the NEC out? Send the legal compliance bods in. That should sort the ‘Spear agenda’ out for a start, so the party might actually become enabled to defend the rule-of-law and Scotland’s legal identity.

    Aligning National Legislation
    with International Human
    Rights Law

  130. twathater says:

    Just noticed this on FOW twatter account if true WTAF, a load of parasites sucking Scottish taxpayers to death, get RID of these wastes of space

  131. Breeks says:


    Sunday National
    The dogs in the street know Boris Johnson is bluffing when it comes to indyref2 //

    Fuck off Angus.

  132. Nigel says:

    Read this article…can see where the author is coming from… BUT:

    It’s too late for more debate. Too late for conferences. Too late for any of this.
    By the time anything has been done this way, WM will have ripped the heart out of our parliament and the devo settlement.
    The time for ‘policy’ has gone.
    Now time for real action, be it in the courts or on the streets or whatever. Bypass the SNP if it cannot be changed/fixed at the top and quickly. That has to be Plan B.
    Trying to reason with the current SNP – well, banging ones head against a stone wall is a damn sight more rewarding.

  133. Achnababan says:

    Based on my understanding SNP conference delegates are getting voting rights on a a first come first served basis via an online process?

    I bet the WOKE faction have already snapped most of them up in that case being young, internet savvy and organised (and probably primed before hand by Mr Murrell?).

  134. A Person says:

    Angus Robertson is saying “Boris Johnson is bluffing”, is he?

    Think I’m having deja vu…

    Oh no wait, I’m remembering Iain Blackford warbling about “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against its will”.

    How did that work out?

  135. Dan says:

    Ach, what could go wrong.

    It would be braw if we had control of our energy policy to further develop renewable power.
    Scotland is a net exporter of power. We often create 100% more than our needs, so export the same amount of energy as our entire country is using into the GB grid which England consumes.
    There are also interconnect cables from mainland Europe that power can be supplied through.
    Is firing up a compromised nuclear reactor really the prudent thing to do.

  136. Ottomanboi says:

    BEAKER 01:34
    The other side of the coin.
    The Japanese initially presented as liberators of colonized peoples.
    Unfortunately elements of European origin race theory got into the mix with disastrous consequences for the Koreans and Chinese with whom they have strong cultural links.
    It is believed US intelligence knew beforehand of a possible Japanese imperial assault on Pearl Harbour but discounted the threat as the Japanese were considered ‘racially’ incapable of such action.
    Western enclaves such as Shanghai were notorious in the 1920s and 30s for their racial attitudes, no dogs and Chinese etc. And the Chinese can dish it out too. They have always felt culturally superior to the Japanese and Koreans and their reputation in the Middle East and Africa is not of the hightest.
    Racism and colonialism dehumanize.
    Which is actually the whole point of them.

  137. kapelmeister says:

    Boris Johnson is bluffing, the Sturgeonistas claim. Who or what is going to make Johnson relent on S30? The Tory Party? The HoC? English public opinion? The CBI? Exactly, he doesn’t have to bluff.

    If the canines in the street know anything it’s that Angus Robertson is Sturgeon’s lapdog.

  138. From the Declaration of Arbroath 1320,

    700 years and still relevant today ?

    `Yet if he/she should give up what he/she has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English,

    we should exert ourselves at once to drive him/her
    out as our enemy and a subverter of his/her own right and ours,

    and make some other man/woman
    who was well able to defend us our King/FM;`

  139. Bill Paterson says:

    here I see much talk of the alternative routes to independence but as far as I am aware none have actually been articulated. Surely these ‘alternatives’ could be discussed in an open forum such as this. I would love to see these alternative routes so that I can judge their viablilty for myself

  140. Republicofscotland says:

    This is a pretty vivid insight into where Scotland’s going to end up post 31st of December, and its not a pretty sight.

    I honestly think now that next years Holyrood elections should also be a plebiscite for independence, we’re running out of time and some of us don’t even recognise that.

    If Sturgeon and Murrell won’t comply there needs to be a change at the top somehow, and quickly, for all our sakes.

  141. Muscleguy says:

    Oh great, another under resourced former Pacific colony nation relying on New Zealand to do their fisheries patrolling for them. It is mostly what the RNZAF do these days.

    As for the mining the Kanak’s main beef (other than land) is the mining which they don’t benefit from and which uses their land and poisons it with tailings etc. Don’t mention the Nickel to the Kanaks.

    I was still in NZ when their rebellion happened in the ’80s. These votes are really just a pressure valve to kee the violence from erupting again. Politicians looking short term again. A bit like Cameron in 2012, his chutzpah in winning caused him to bring the Brexit refrendum on. I bet he bitterly regrets saying ‘Aye’ to Alex Salmond. Winning the indyref was a Pyrrhic victory if ever there was one.

    Or it would be if Sturgeon would quit the scene taking hubby with her and the corrupt, useless, spendthrift civil servants and the Woke entryists shown the door. Present them with a women’s rights declaration everyone has to sign to stay a member. There’s one in existence in the SNP already I understand. An easy mechanism to identify all but the deep sleepers who can be found out later.

    It’s our Militant Tendency moment.

    From over here in the ISP your little ambitions look rather pathetic. 1,000 members huh? 1% or so of reported members (we can’t know of course since they’ve stopped telling the world and won’t publish their accounts so we can roughly work it out).

    The ISP has way more membes than that, a lot of them former SNP members. I’m somthing of a rarity not having joined a party before. Indy is just one issue, Women’s rights and the Woke quite another. The manifest NEC corruption, the still not properly reformed Hate Crime Bill. If it passes before the election the Woke will use it to flood the police with complaints about us in the ISP, just watch them. It is pretty much an ISP killer of a Bill. We have Manni Singh as a political prisoner, we almost had Alex Salmond, might have Craig Murray and Mark Hirst so the trend is not good.

    That you are still in the SNP with all that makes you look rather suspect from out here. Don’t you care about women’s rights enough? What will it take?

    Don’t vote Woke.


  142. Footsoldier says:

    Pro-Union media and Westminster continues its daily campaign against independence – not a full onslaught yet but a daily drip drip of comments while it’s silence from SNP.

    Has the SNP leadership been on a management course learning how to delegate and control, which means being able to do more than one thing at a time whilst remaining in charge?

    Is this the best we can expect from the numbers on the SNP HQ payroll plus councillors, MSP’s and MP’s – what are they all doing?

  143. kapelmeister says:

    If Sturgeon was still as controlling and as nasty to party colleagues as she is, but was actually advancing us towards independence, or, if she was incompetent on independence but was actually nice and honest, then we would in both cases, have some positive things to say about her.

    As we know now, she is both decidedly nasty behind the carefully crafted public image and completely ineffectual on independence.

    Her story could be called Malice in Blunderland. And a good deal less amusing than any work of Lewis Carroll.

  144. Big Jock says:

    A Person – “Boris is bluffing” Angus Robertson!

    Well it must be the longest bluff in history! In fact the Tories have been bluffing on the Section 30 since 2016 in that case. I think what you will find , is that Nicola is the one that is bluffing.

    She knew the Section 30 was a dead duck, yet went ahead with it. As they say” There is method in the Magners” Deliberate.

    Relying on your enemy to change their mind. Instead of just carrying out your actions. Is never going to work. The enemy always has the upper hand.

    I think the saying goes that actions always speak louder than words. No one takes threats seriously , unless there are consequences to ignoring them. I think most of us parents learnt that when teaching our kids right from wrong.

  145. Dan says:

    @ CameronB Brodie 4th October at 11:26 pm

    Aye, bantz aside, it does certainly raise the issue on how we are supposedly bound by laws, but others can seemingly play fast and loose with them with few if any repercussions.

    Should every infraction be called out, contested, and logged to build a record, or by not doing so does it set a precedent of acceptance that such infractions are ok, thus making it all the more difficult to only call out specific breaches as and when it suits.

  146. Breeks says:

    What an open goal for Tories like Davidson.

    A running sore for the rest of us.

  147. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘It is therefore false to claim or imply that COPFS are precluded by statute from authorising Alex Salmond’s lawyers to release to the inquiry the material which was disclosed to them for the criminal case. That is precisely what COPFS authorised, and what the court sanctioned, in the Sheridan case.

    If there are other reasons why such authorisation should not be given, and why both the inquiry and the public should not be told what was said and done by Peter Murrell and others in these WhatsApp messages, COPFS should state, fully and clearly, what those reasons are.’

  148. Achnababan says:

    Another interesting snippet from history re. Japanese in WW2. The British have always focused on the inhumane treatment of prisoners by the Japanese after they drove the British out of Malaya (as it was then) and the all of Singapore …

    but what is forgotten is that many native Malay people despised the British as colonisers who stole their land and turned it into plantations using Indian immigrant labour as essentially slaves. Many Malays actively assisted the Japanese in their invasion, providing crucial intelligence about British and Australian troop locations and movements and carrying out acts of sabotage behind British lines.

  149. Effijy says:

    Breeks- above.

    So Baroness Davidson thinks she has the right to demand information
    ahead of the approved on going enquiry does she.

    She is a non entity in Scottish Politics.
    She ran away when she seen how toxic Scots hating Boris
    was and came back temporarily for this Baroness crap that she tries
    to hide for the minute.

    I’m no Murrell fan but I hope he offers to trade the information about
    The Dark Money the Tories received via Ulster during Indy Ref 1 and
    details of the £20K she pocketed from a Russian money launderer.

    Otherwise tell the loosened dwarf to piss off!

  150. Alf Baird says:

    CameronB Brodie:

    As the Treaty of Union’s sacred cows are further whittled away, a possible exam question for Scotland’s university law faculties:

    ‘The reality of Scotland’s internal colonialism within the UK renders the term ‘Scots Law’ an illusory misnomer. Discuss.’

  151. Bob Mack says:

    @Alf Baird,

    You are correct of course in some ways. Certainly nearly 3 centuries of being represented by those who had vested intsrests in England have allowed Scots Law to be diluted to a large degree.

    However the case by Joanna Cherry ‘re prorogation highlighted that Scots Law does still have relevance in some situations.

    We should be using it as a leverage point.

  152. t42 says:

    Has anyone heard who Nicola is supporting in the US election this time?
    I’m sure she’ll tell us soon. I’m still waiting on her tip for the armeni-azeri war? She loves to pick a winner in a no-horse race.

  153. Breastplate says:

    Ian B,
    That’s very interesting from Gordon Dangerfield (excellent name) and shows what side the COPFS think their bread is buttered on.
    Turns out they’re just as lowlife as the people that they judge as lowlife.

    They certainly don’t want the truth getting out without a fight.

  154. Ronald Fraser says:

    Anyone remember the fickle english media running with the headlines in MAY saying that Boris told them there would be a Covid19 Vaccine ready to use by SEPTEMBER.

    The stupid, fickle english actually believed him.

    And what of the one about the Scottish politician who told her gullable followers that there would be a Referendum on Scottish Independence in 2020.

    Some stupid gullable Scots actually believed her.

    I have come to the conclusion that ALL politicians are a shower of fuckin Bengal Lancers (Chancers)

    And I mean, ALL of them.

    We don’t need politicians to win our Independence, we just need them to fire the starting gun, then stand aside and let the people run the Campaign.

  155. Daisy Walker says:

    I struggle to see how Copfs can legitimately stop the release, for lawful purpose, of evidence.

    It makes complete sense, that for the purpose of the crime they were prosecuting, they deemed, some evidence, not allowable for that specific case.

    It seems a gross over-reaching to use that as a blanket ban on that evidence ever being used in other – legitimate – legal proceedings – for which a Government inquiry – would have to be included.

    We are running out of time.

  156. Joe says:


    Whats fascinating about that period of history is not what has been taught and broadcast, but what has not been taught and broadcast, what has been underplayed and what has been overplayed.

    The winners write the history.

    Unfortunately so many people are so emotionally attached (brainwashed) to one story that they get hostile at the mention that just possibly they have been lied to and are prepared to dismiss as pure evil any who try to point out anything else.

    People do not want to hear that their fathers or grandfathers fought a bankers war and instead they stick to the more comfortable line such as the History Channel would put out.

  157. SOG says:

    I had a problem with the MfI email. Could you show it in a less-cryptic form, please?

  158. Dan says:

    @ Bob Mack

    3 centuries and vested interests you say, with rarely a spanner thrown into the works.
    Indeed, I am minded of us being so supposedly constrained in our abilities to end the union with this equal partner because of the many legal aspects of being in said union.

    I proffer that within amongst all these laws, rules, and conventions pertaining to this union that we must adhere to, there is the matter that no constituent part of the UK should have an economic advantage over another.
    There seems to be a sack full of evidence that has accrued over the centuries which records that this has not been the case.
    Evidenced in that under the governance of the UK, The Queendom of England’s population has consistently grown at a faster rate than The Queendom of Scotland’s, with all the economic benefits and advantages that go with it.
    One may expect to see deviation in parity over a few years, but this should have been corrected by the UK government with the implementation of policies to address this divergence.
    That the UK government have chosen not to means they are effectively complicit in facilitating this trend to continue and amounts to dereliction of duty.

  159. Achnababan says:

    Joe – spot on… and that goes back even to Roman times where we are still told that the Romans conquered us and then withdrew voluntarily cos we wernae worth it.

    Apparently according to David Breeze OBE, FSA, FRSE, HonFSAScot, Hon MIFA, and the Chief Inspector of Ancient Monuments for Historic Scotland between 1989 and 2005 the natives were just too wee, too stupid and too poor for the Romans to be bothered with!

    A key component of the British project in Scotland was to colonise our history. Neil Oliver is not the only British propogandist around – many of our cultural institutions only employ ‘British’ experts such as Dr Breeze who uphold the British view and push it hard.

  160. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “here I see much talk of the alternative routes to independence but as far as I am aware none have actually been articulated. Surely these ‘alternatives’ could be discussed in an open forum such as this. I would love to see these alternative routes so that I can judge their viablilty for myself”

    Jesus fucking Christ, Bill, it was a whole week ago:


  161. Josef Ó Luain says:

    Pressure groups, without ‘critical mass’ are a waste of time and energy in sewn-up systems. Building ‘critical mass’ to force change from within will take too much time, time, I doubt if the Yes movement or your SNP group-members can afford.

    Occasionally, walking-away is the only sensible option. Putting all your energies behind another pro-indy party may be your only credible choice at this late juncture.

  162. Joe says:


    Actually i say ‘fascinating’. Its more like a kick in the guts if i’m honest.

    I first started to open my eyes when in my wifes country and met lots of people with a 180 degree spin on what happened, including people who lived through it. Initially I thought ‘god, these people are nice but they are totally brainwashed’.

    Turns out it was me who was brainwashed and I actually feel ashamed for having swallowed the narrative I did and the lack of critical thinking I applied to it.

    Our establishment and the banking elite are among the most evil people who ever lived. Their media mouthpieces, film makers and publishers are utterly shameless and without a shred of morality.

  163. David Caledonia says:

    I stopped watching FMQs a while back when what i was listening to and seeing alarmed me no end
    All the unionist leaders where demanding to know why the SNP had closed the childrens hospital, every one in that room that day new the answer and played some silly arsed game that was unbelievable to see
    There was a new hospital built about two miles down the road , it included a childrens hospital within it
    The children had been moved into the brand new hospital then the old one was closed down after they where moved.
    Nicola Sturgeon never called them out on their obvious lies, it was so easy to say what I have just written about
    But she gave her usual claptrap answer and I thought to myself, this woman is either a clown or she is an imposter, she is certainly not a clown her feet are to small for a start , but she certainly is an imposter first class

  164. Geoff Bush says:

    Thanks for all of the input, even the stuff about Japanese surrender at the end of WW2 – I love Wings !
    If you are not on FB and/or not an SNP member the email your interest at , we had to choose a platform for the group, so we thought about it for at least 30 minutes then chose FB.
    The group is about having a real go at changing SNP policy from the INSIDE, and we might not succeed. If we DON’T have a go, then we certainly wont succeed.
    SNP leadership/NEC etc – there are other people doing what they can about these issues, our focus is on putting forward credible alternative routes to independence, and we WILL do precisely that, very quickly.

  165. Sorry I don’t buy this party within a party we need a new party with ordinary people running it no lawers doctors etc., they are all part of the establishment this could be a ploy to curb the new parties from being formed the old n party has. Failed and betrayed us time for the new fool me once etc., ???

  166. kapelmeister says:

    Blair @1:24

    No doctors in your proposed new party?

    Che Guevara and Frantz Fanon were both doctors.

  167. Beaker says:

    @Achnababan says:
    5 October, 2020 at 10:49 am

    Are you and Joe the history experts now? You are trying to make out the Japanese to be a peace loving nation that was freeing the natives from the barbarians.

    In effect, one imperial nation replaced the other, but with even harsher treatment.

    Look at what happened in China under Japanese rule, and you might understand what the Japanese government were like at that period. The trumped European brutality in the colonies. They were even worse that the French were in Vietnam.

  168. robertknight says:

    B Paterson @ 1:24

    “Sorry I don’t buy this party within a party we need a new party with ordinary people running it no lawers doctors etc., they are all part of the establishment this could be a ploy to curb the new parties from being formed the old n party has. Failed and betrayed us time for the new fool me once etc., ???”


    We don’t need a ‘Momentum’ type organisation within the SNP, cheerleading for Joanna Cherry or whoever on the inside.

    If the leadership won’t go, then the members need to vote with their feet and their wallets/purses.

  169. mike cassidy says:

    Feck me!

    The tinfoil hat brigade were right about one thing

    The covid restrictions are a perfect excuse to break up legitimate protest you don’t like

    Craig Murray even gets a walk-on part.

  170. Joe says:


    Sorry mate. Interrupted your BBC documentary. Do go on

    @Mike cassidy

    I just posted a video of a statement made by a high profile lawyer talking about the plan to bring down the Covid pandemic hoax. He was the guy who dealt with the VW emissions scandal so he isnt just some Saul Goodman type of hack. The tinfoil hat brigade are easily recognizable – they are out wearing masks now and looking to the TV for their information.

  171. Breeks says:

    Tom says:
    5 October, 2020 at 11:57 am

    as good a summing-up as any ..

    Aye Tom. But the bit that sticks out is, “… Here in Scotland, where the SNP has been in power for almost 14 years…

    I cannot bring to mind ANY political movement, at any time in history, neither radical nor conformist in it’s agenda, which has secured the emphatic democratic footfold which the SNP has secured in Scotland for fourteen years, and yet has done nothing to secure it’s central ambition, but lowered the expectations of it’s supporters to such a degree that while a screaming open goal guaranteed to deliver Scotland’s Constitutional Independence was squandered, the Party hierarchy was busying itself subverting it’s upper echelons and command structure with contoversial candidates being free to conspire against our best advocates for Independence, vet themselves fit for candidacy over better candidates, while they themselves are indifferent to the cause of Independence.

    It’s like a horrible sick joke that won’t go away. It’s there when you go to bed at night, and still there when you wake up in the morning, and every time to rub your eyes with incredulous disbelief. Is this really happening??? Aye. Aye it is.

    Fourteen years. I have no issue or deficit with the first years under Alex Salmond, who started from nowhere and took us to the brink, but I am quite certain history will not be kind to Sturgeon’s tenure as First Minister… and that’s about as “diplomatic” as I can put it.

    I make no bones about it, never have, I’m not a great fan of the SNP. I’d readily declare myself to be at the hyper critical end of the spectrum. But the view from this point on the spectrum is that the SNP will need nothing short of a miracle to resurrect it’s reputation to the extent I will ever consider voting for it again, and their bloody referendum now feels like a component of the scam. The Rubicon was crossed back in January, and there is nothing to go back to. That cowardly capitulation was unforgiveable. No more.

    In a one horse race, Scotland has managed against all the odds to back the three legged blind nag, with colic and stage fright, and in the race we couldn’t lose, we’re stuck watching from the grandstand as it stumbles about like Dobbin the pantomime horse, utterly clueless where the finishing line is, as the Westminster bookies all laugh at us as they pack away their stand’s and stuff all our money in their pockets. How the fk did it come to this???

    And you think Peter Murrell’s the big crook in the story? Crook he may be, but I think he’s just a bit player in this story.

  172. CameronB Brodie says:

    I thought we’d already been over this. WOKE seeks to empower women and those politically marginalized as a result of their social position, so WOKE it’s good.

    The SNP are the opposite of WOKE, as the ‘Spear agenda’ is simply misogynistic neo-liberalism that will hurt women and ethnic minorities. So the SNP ain’t woke, they’re are simply Tory in outlook, and incapable of defending the rule-of-law, as they appear not to understand how the law works.

  173. CameronB Brodie says:

    Is it not obvious that Scotland’s legal Establishment are predominantly Tory in outlook and actually hostile towards democracy? They’ve simply allowed the SNP enough rope to hang themselves, so we can all be good Brexitanians for ever and ever.

    If Scotland ever wants to liberate itself, we will need to sort our legal establishment out, who apparently don’t need to support the universal principles of legal doctrine, as they are content to stand under Westminster’s illiberal claim to legal authority. So our legal Establishment are simply Tories who seek to control Scotland through the law, rather than democratic process.

    Postcolonial Indigenous Legal

  174. Corrado Mella says:

    Too little, too late, Geoff.

    The Brexshit wrecking ball will befall on what’s left of Scotland at the bells.

    Say goodbye to your dreams of glory, welcome your nightmares.

    I’m tired of screaming “DANGER! DANGER!” in your faces and being ignored.

    I’ve got no other time to waste.

  175. stonefree says:

    @ Geoff Bush at 1:10 pm

    With respect you could have set up a forum and had the member area private, in other words ,your own wee secret society
    I have never seen so many arseholes as on facebook
    The forum would have cost nothing

  176. Gary says:

    It’s one thing agreeing with you all, but what would you have done differently and what should be done NOW?

    Prior to support being 50% there was little with which to claim the grounds of a NEED (by the Scottish people) for another vote.

    I appreciate that support was built from almost nowhere to get to a vote of 45% (only lowered at the last minute by the government breaching purdah) but getting a SECOND vote will be harder than getting the first one – the UK Government were SUPREMELY confident that they’d win, then they panicked at the end when they knew they’d lose. Also LOSING a second vote really WOULD end thoughts of independence for generations to come. The referendum must be won by a landslide, as with the 97 referendum at nearly 75%.

    The fact that we have the moral right on our side means absolutely nothing. The fact that we have a legal process and laws means nothing. The UK does not respect it’s own laws never mind International Law – as we saw in ’14.

    Indie 2 needs to be an unstoppable force, something so embarrassingly obvious that the UK Government CAN’T deny it any more. Already they are feeling the pressure and despite COVID and Brexit being the problems of the day even Kier Starmer has had to comment to the effect that it is a matter for us (Scottish voters) to decide. Obviously the small number of Labour politicians in Scotland aren’t pleased about this but the fact he felt he had to comment is the telling factor – not what he actually said.

  177. Soda says:

    I give up. I have pm’ed you Geoff but to avail. I have flagged up obvious unthinking sturgeon fan boy trolls but you fail to act. Your fb page is already awash with idiots and you let it happen.

    Your page fails.

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