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Little Green Rooster

Posted on October 03, 2020 by

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    1. 03 10 20 08:56

      Little Green Rooster | speymouth

    270 to “Little Green Rooster”

    1. Stoker says:

      Cheers, Chris! 🙂

      Here’s another toon for a laugh folks.

    2. MaggieC says:

      Chris , Excellent once again ,

      Wonder if Donald Trump will have a short stay in hospital , just the same as Boris Johnson had to raise a bit of sympathy for him ? .

    3. Ruglonian says:

      Chris, you spoil us!

      Week after week you nail it. I’d honestly say that you’re the best toonster since sliced bread 😀

    4. dunks says:

      Chickens coming home to roast.

      I’d love to have your wit and talent Chris. Brilliant.

    5. Tom Kane says:

      What a place to return home to roost. That cheeky fellow seems to be a bit of a showman… Can almost hear “raindrops keep falling on my head… But that doesn’t mean my eyes will soon be turning red, nothing worries me, cos i’m never gonna stop the rain by complaining…”

    6. Robert Louis says:

      I bet nobody is praying as hard as Ivanka.

    7. Ottomanboi says:

      Germans have been warned not to visit Scotland. Is it Covid or Sturgeon they’re warning about?
      Plainly nurse Nicola’s health care strategy has failed.
      775 ‘new cases’, whatever that signifies, in Scotland (pop. 5.5 million.)
      Brilliant news, moving ineluctably towards the common-sense community immunity.
      Scotland is the home of the concept of ‘common sense’. High time we applied it, yes?

    8. Effijy says:

      Sorry to hear that about Donald.
      Our thoughts and prayers go out to that virus
      and his wife who will find isolation with him for
      14 days difficult to survive.

      Is that a UK bound Chlorinated Chicken in his thatched. roof?

    9. Effijy says:

      Regarding MF-
      The Westminster parties have top class problem solvers to
      write scripts, lie and cheat their way out of trouble.

      If Margaret was in the Tory party, you would have found that she didn’t
      have a phone charger with her and her battery was flat so she was unable
      to pick up the message about having Covid.

      Although she had a test, she felt so much better the following day, she regretted
      wasting her test.

      On charging her phone at home and picking the message she reported the matter to all parties and

      Nicola has to publicly ask her to resign but she should be content that Margaret as an independent
      would vote in support of all matters SNP.

      The truth like Margaret’s has no place in Westminster politics!

      Do not resign.

    10. Marie Clark says:

      Thant was a real LOL moment, thanks Chris.

    11. Effijy says:

      That Dick Leonard on BBC saying Margaret’s constituency has Scotland’s
      4th highest furlough numbers?
      Would that be because it has the 4th largest population?

      Cancer treatments are down in her constituency and it had Care Home deaths
      Yes Dick, just like your own and every other UK constituency.

      Dick Dick Leonard.

    12. Stan Broadwood says:

      How many different ways can the “Trump obsessed” English media tell us that he has caught this Corona Virus?

      That’s the last 24 Hours the English media have had this as their headline story.

      With a sprinkling of that evil Scottish MP Margeret Ferrier.

    13. Republicofscotland says:

      Nice one Chris, Trump’s now in hospital, just like his kindred spirit was Johnson.

      Meanwhile alliance for Independence, has changed its name to Action for Independence, due to the Electoral Commissions strict rules.

    14. Stoker says:

      “Lord Digby Jones, a leading proponent of leaving the EU, said in July 2016, “There’s not going to be any economic pain. If there are job losses, they will be very few”.

      Brexit: The Digby-Jones jobs lost index is launched:

    15. Simone says:

      Well done Chris.

    16. MaggieC says:

      Effijy @ 8.28 am ,

      I saw that with Tricky Dicky Leonard , my god he waffles a lot of shite to put it politely but I don’t know if you saw that Lesley Riddoch was on just before him but I only caught the last seconds of her interview but it was good to see her getting on mainstream bbc breakfast news . She’s an excellent journalist and reporter unlike the usual waffle we normally get here .

    17. Stan Broadwood says:


      I thought you would have done a sketch of the Nicola Sturgeon “Naughty Step”.

      It is becoming rather crowded, is it not?

      Maybe next week?

    18. Republicofscotland says:

      SNP virtual conference to take place on the 28th to 30th of November, Sturgeon will give her conference speech on St Andrews Day (30th) some serious questions need to posed to Sturgeon, whilst NEC elections must see a change of personnel.

      Lets see if Plan B is also debated and passed.

    19. Stan Broadwood says:

      Republicofscotland 8.50am

      Is Sturgeon going to allow a Q & A?

      That will be prime time viewing if she does.

      A Joanna Cherry/Nicola Sturgeon fight to the death.

    20. Effijy says:

      Lesley Riddoch got on the BBC as a journalist from
      the National only because she was going to condemn
      Margaret’s actions and propose she resigns.

      We won’t hear the National’s name again unless it’s SNP Bad.

    21. Josef Ó Luain says:

      The ITN news-reader was in paroxysmal meltdown over the news of Trump’s hospitalisation last night, why wasn’t I?

    22. indyfan says:

      The SNP virtual conference taking place at the end of November will, I believe, cost members, who wish to join it, £30. Seems an awful lot for sitting in your living room watching whats going on through your internet. But of course they need to pay for the lawyers so perhaps members will be happy to pay. Might be worth it just for the chance to vote off a number of the NEC members.
      I wonder how the ‘debate’ on alternatives to a Sec 30 will go (if they even debate it)? So easy to ‘have issues’ with connections if the debate gets a bit heated.
      On other news there is talk of the Scottish Elections being postponed by 6 months to a year because of Covid…

    23. Willie says:

      Whatever the reason, that the most powerful and powerfully protect policies in the world goes down with COVID just before the most divisive US election raises big questions.

      Yes he could simply have picked up the virus.. Or could he have been given the virus.
      Germ warfare, poisoning with ricin tipped umbrellas, polonium infused tea, novochok tainted door handles, the track record of such tricks is there for all to see – so under the cover of COVID it could well be more than plausible.

      But what of the consequence. If he survives will it be sympathy for his trauma or disdain for him and his government’s deliberate failings in dealing with the “ hoax” . And If he dies, how will that play out with the his red neck supporters if a conspiracy about him being bumped off takes hold.

      The USA is one tinderbox country armed to the absolute teeth. Maybe we should be praying for his survival. Barbecued chicken, flame grilled, could be on everyone’s diet very soon.

    24. John H. says:

      Some people were predicting that Trump would “catch” Covid in October, especially if his polling numbers weren’t looking too good. And so it seems to be. The man never knowingly tells th0e truth.

    25. Republicofscotland says:

      Douglas Ross, Tory branch manager in Scotland is to give an angry virtual speech today aimed at Tories South of the border, telling them to stop playing into the hands of the SNP.

      Ross added the last thing Scotland needs now is a second independence referendum, and that he’s fed up with people (Tory reps) who’ve barely been to Scotland telling him that Scottish independence is inevitable.

    26. A Person says:


      I agree with you. If Trump survives it does look likely that he’ll be quite heavily defeated by Biden. I’m no fan of Biden’s, but such a result would teach the far right a lesson they can’t forget. But if Trump dies, his supporters won’t be forced to confront that reality and indeed may develop a theory that he was poisoned (because obviously there’s no way someone who interacted with thousands of people could contract a virus and there’s no way this nasty virus could kill an obese septuagenarian).

    27. A Person says:


      There is **some** validity to that point, and it applies as much to independence supporters as it does to unionists. We can turn to the pages of the Economist or the Guardian, look at an article written by an English liberal who has been to Scotland twice, once to go to a chalet in Aviemore and once to go to the Edinburgh Festival, telling us that independence is inevitable and using this as a stick with which to beat the Tories, and we can pat ourselves on the back and say that everything is fine and dandy and we’re on “the right side of history”.

      The likes of, say, Nick Cohen or Polly Toynbee have been wrong about pretty much every political development in the last decade (if not longer), if anything, their belief in us should be alarming.

    28. David Caledonia says:

      I like Donald Trump, he is a hard headed businessman and allways plays to win
      America is a much better place with him at the helm
      The democrats are just a sad bunch of bad losers, and to put that man foreward as their candidate for the presidency shows the mentality of them, that man is sick and they are using him so they can be the power behind the throne
      What a disgusting party they are, and as for Mr Trump, yes he does put foreward some crazy stuff, but don’t they all at times, at least he has america’s best interests at heart, can we say the same about the present leaders of the SNP
      The answer is a resounding big NO

    29. Clydebuilt says:

      Willie @9.22 am

      He hasn’t started a War yet, although he launched a salvo at a minor facility in Syria. This had US commentators declare He’s looking like a real President. Vast sums are accrued from War, is this where his real problems come from?

    30. Stuart MacKay says:

      Just got a reminder about renewing my membership from that nice Mr. Murrell. Given the number of times he’s probably written it’s no wonder he gets paid a lot.

      There must be some good still in him. I can sense it. Why else would he start by writing “In these unprecedented times…”. So true, Peter. So true.

    31. David Caledonia says:


      Are you scared of death, cause it sounds like it to me with all your comments about Mr Trump and your could be poisoning theory
      Well here is a little note from me, we all die eventually, and I for one could not care less about that fact
      Because tomorrow as usual I expect to be alive,but there will come a tomorrow that i will not see
      And that’s lifeboy,or is it soap, not too sure lol

    32. Athanasius says:

      Schadenfreude, Chris? Always the lefties’ Achilles heel.

    33. David Caledonia says:

      Are some of you so poor you can’t afford a fiver a year to be a member of the SNP, good grief things are worse than I thought lol

    34. Rm says:

      This virus has gave all the governments in the world the right to keep their populations suppressed, everything done by internet, no speaking person to person, people’s freedom is slowly getting eroded, the virus may be there but it’s the best exuse right wing governments were looking for, and if the cashless society comes about every thing we do will be controlled it’s nae looking good unless the people who vote can change everything before it’s to late.

    35. Achnababan says:

      For those of you who are not insomniacs please take a little time to read a brilliant post from Wull on ‘Parking the Buses’ at 2.05 am last night.

      Its a long read but quite superb analysis of what might be going on with NS…

    36. David Caledonia says:

      I hope to be out of the country by November, and I never bother with conferences anyway, but I will be back for the election early in the year, why there might not be one is a complete mystery to me, the flu season will be over by then and life as we know it will carry on as usual, if you can go out to buy food or get the flu jab as I do every year then I am damn sure you can go out to vote
      And btw, I will not go near any pub that allows this crowd of numpties to dictate their closing times, and it isn’t even lawful

      Sheep Sheep Sheep baaaaaaaaa

    37. mike cassidy says:

      Trump Infects America

      “At the best of times, Trumpworld operates with all the strategic direction of a chicken with its head cut off,” a senior Republican official told me. “Right now, they’re operating like a chicken with its head cut off, lit on fire, and thrown off a cliff.”

    38. LeggyPeggy says:

      Indyfan @ 9.18 am

      Re Snp conference , Members with a visitor pass do NOT get voting rights for candidates to NEC and other committee elections It’s only members with a Delegate pass that are entitled to vote at conference, Delegate passes are only issued through the branches and you have to request a Delegate pass through the branch secretary .

      The number of Delegate passes that a branch receives is dependent on the amount of members that a branch have . The more members a branch have then that branch receives more delegate passes than a smaller branch.

      As soon as members are notified of delegate places available , get your application into the the branch secretary immediately although I know that some branches receive more members applying for a pass than they are issued with and then generally the names should be put into a hat and drawn that way although I’m sure in some branches it will be a case of if your face fits and your not a troublemaker you’ll definitely get a delegate pass .

      When the last conference in June was to be held before it was cancelled and it was cut back to one day only and it was to be held in a much smaller venue then I know my branch delegate passes were halved compared to what we would normally receive .

      Personally I think it should be all members that should have voting rights at conference as when you receive a delegate pass all voting for candidate elections to the various committees is done online anyway so there should no problems in making this system available to all the members .

    39. Bob Mack says:


      Just read it . Brilliant analysis is worthy of its own place under a main title on this very site. I hope the Rev agrees as it should be essential reading for every Independence supported whether SNP of not.

    40. kapelmeister says:

      Achnababan @10:12

      Yes, a superb post by Wull.

    41. Achnababan says:

      Bob Mack
      That’s a great suggestion for the Rev to consider… perhaps entitled ‘Is Nicola Sturgeon oor ain Tony Blair?’

    42. Ottomanboi says:

      This is simply a manifestation of common-sense.
      C’est la vie! Get over it guys.

    43. Shug says:

      I was having the passing thought that Douglas Ross is a poor wee soul
      He thinks he has been given a big and important job when in reality he is being used as a useful fool. He will never be allowed to make a significant decision and he appears well out his depth.
      Soon enough he will make what he thinks is a good suggestion and the real bosses in London will slap him down
      When we get indy he will be cast aside by both sides

    44. Stuart MacKay says:

      Wull’s post is probably spot on but what about all the other “do the right thing” minded people that are in position of power in the party and the Government. It’s easy to lay the blame for a situation at the door of an individual but if Nicola goes what of those who remain? Clearing house would be a good idea but it’s probably a mistake as well as it will likely take the good, the bad and the reformable with it. If there is ever a re-establishment of priorities for the leadership by the membership it might be better to focus on the constitution and the policies to ensure that this or a similar situation can never happen again.

    45. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      A decent read from the New Statesman. Here’s a quote from it:-

      “Since the collapse of the Labour vote in Scotland – or rather its siphoning off to the SNP under Sturgeon, who posed as a non-nationalist leader of a social democratic Scottish Labour Party mark II – the Conservatives have become the dominant party of the Union.”

      Chris Cairns – your recent offerings have been rather good!

    46. Republicofscotland says:

      A Person @9.49am.

      Reading that Douglas Ross comment, it struck me that many Tories South of the border, now believe that Scotland will become an independent nation, and that their attempts to block it are merely just delaying tactics.

      I would suggest that Scottish independence now rests in our own hands, and not the hands of Westminster, however we need an FM whose actually going to see the job through.

    47. Ottomanboi says:

      The fey stormtroopers of woke have probably never heard of this man although they do appear to have heard of Robert I, king of Scots, vile racist slave owning bastard that he was….
      He has a statue in Paisley. Common sense suggests some police protection for the gentleman.
      Before the boys and girls get their paint brushes and demolition tackle out they might consider this.
      Never let historical fact get in the way of preconception might be the war cry of wokery.

    48. Republicofscotland says:

      Stan Broadwood @8.59pm.

      I think Sturgeon would be foolish not to allow questions, clarity is sorely needed at this time. The members and delegates, as well as the voters want clear concise answers on several subjects. anything less I’d imagine wouldn’t go down too well.

    49. kapelmeister says:

      It looks like the Tories are set to open a second party HQ in Leeds to consolidate the big gains they made in 2019 in the north of England. Labour really are struggling.

      And Johnson will doubtless soon be saying how a pound spent in Castleford is worth more that that pound spent in Strathclyde.

    50. Bob Mack says:

      @Stuart MacKay,

      Indeed. No individual and their spouse should ever be allowed such unqualified control of the party again.Ever.

    51. Republicofscotland says:


      Yes like the new Hub in Edindurgh, which is basically a Tory government staging post in Scotland, I’d imagine the Leeds office will be a similar disruptive outlet in Northern England.

    52. Achnababan says:

      Stuart Mackay

      Yes good point. I agree that a total clear out is not a sensible idea at this stage and NS can stay in power if she can bury the hatchet with AS in some way.

      It might be enough to clear out the WOKE faction from the SNP NEC in November if that is possible but I suspect several heads on plates may also be required by AS and his blue bonnets.

      Head Number 1: Peter Murrell
      Head Number 2: Lesley Evans
      Head Number 3: Liz Lloyd

      This would minimise political damage to the SNP and the movement but would a major ask of NS who is clearly intent on driving home her plan come hell or high water!!

    53. Richard says:

      Something tells me Melania did not catch covid of her husband?

    54. Richard says:

      Something tells me Melania did not catch covid of her husband?

    55. Doug says:

      Nice one, Chris.

      If nutter Trump has covid then it is indeed a deliciously feathery irony. Nutter Trump’s friend, liar and coward Johnson, once more exhibited his arrogance and ignorance towards Scotland and its people in an interview with STV news yesterday. Nutter Trump and liar Johnson are both world-wide laughing stocks who rightly deserve to be ridiculed at every opportunity.

      As well as roosting I hope the chicken is crapping all over Nutter Trump.

    56. Andy Ellis says:

      @Stuart MacKay

      I’ve often wondered what accounts for the fact that so few in leadership positions in the SNP have raised their heads above the parapet about the party’s recent travails. I’m undecided whether it’s self preservation, moral cowardice or just the fact that they are happy to go along with her prospectus?

      Having left the party myself, and not having been a member long enough when I returned to Scotland to play an active role in my branch, I can only give my underlying impression. It seems that a lot of grass roots members are probably horrified with a lot of what is going on (stitching up Alex, the gender woo-woo fixation, kicking #indyref2 into the long grass, failing to deal with complaints and increasing authoritarianism in the party bureaucracy, the thin gruel of the Growth Commission) but have been convinced by the constant repetition of the “wheesht for indy” message, and the implied or even overt, party fiat that anyone who is off message is a malcontent and must be shunned.

      I have my doubts the party can be saved, or indeed whether it is worth the effort. I honestly couldn’t stomach campaigning shoulder to shoulder with some of pieces of work who have delivered the party to where it is today. I wish “ordinary” SNP members luck, and hope they succeed but I want no part of it.

      Even if they do cleanse the party of the Wokus Dei infection, clean out the NEC and amend the party’s structure to ensure the NEC and leadership are more accountable, the SNP is institutionally a “wet-nat” party. By trying to be all things to all people it has ended up being devoid of principle and fixated with retaining power for its own sake.

      While miming adherence to the ultimate goal of independence, it has conspired to achieve virtually nothing: we are being dragged out of the EU against our will, we are further away from independence now than we were even on 19/09/14, and face a decade of Tory rule and the reversion of powers to Westminster that used to be Holyrood’s.

      The good and reformable who are still grimly hanging on inside the SNP are likely to face a stark choice pretty soon. I hope more of them will realise that there’s no point throwing good money after bad. We have to build something better.

    57. Clydebuilt says:

      Republicofscotland @ 11.14am

      I would suggest that the Tories down South with their hands on the levers of power have no intention of standing back and watching Scotland become Independent.

    58. bscotfree says:

      Another brilliant cartoon from Chris – superb draughtmanship.

      Off topic for a moment:
      Have to agree with the long perceptive post from wull (@2:05 am) on previous thread (parking the buses) comparing Sturgeon and Blair. Should be read.

      I have also previously compared these two in terms of their ‘legacies’. Tony Blair’s legacy is forever the Iraq war. Whenever he pops up he looks tormented by conscience. Hundreds of thousands maimed and dead! What was he thinking when he was seduced into becoming the Bush poodle?

      Sturgeon hasn’t reached that stage of self knowledge yet and as wull says she believes that she is on the side of right. She genuinely believes her carefully cultivated spin – great FM, Borgen like leader, great discernment of novels etc. Self righteousness defines her attitude, with much false humility added. Her daily briefings are are all about her and can be described as hand wringing extraordinaire. Her utter condemnation of her ‘friend’ Margaret Ferrier (on whom I have no judgement to make) makes me think who needs friends like that. Sturgeon is as wull says dangerous because she believes she is always in the right. Her personal choices, avoidance of Scottish independence combined with her zealotry for LGBTQ…. ideology, have put Scots in the undefended position we now find ourselves, vis-a-vis Brexit and the Internal Market Bill.

      It is deeply depressing that so many of the independence supporting public are so gullible that they still can’t face the fact that Sturgeon is not an asset but a blockage. Thats why the self same media talking heads, who relentlessly attack Alex Salmond, don’t attack her because they actually approve of the blockage and potential implosion of the SNP cause.

      I still believe folk like Kenny MacAskill and Joanna Cherry can save the day but it requires a speedy expulsion of the current leadership. At present it looks as though they will have to be forced out and I believe that process has started. I still hope Alex Salmond will return to our politics as he has integrity, a characteristic hard to find these days in politicians.

    59. kapelmeister says:

      Republicofscotland @11:26

      Yeah, that Queen Elizabeth Hub, as they call it, is a huge and impressive building. It’ll do nicely as the Scottish Foreign Ministry HQ after independence.

    60. Bob Mack says:

      I think perhaps the English public are ambivalent about Scottish Independence ,but I also think the Westminster political class are not.

      We have too many resources to let go. Among these is energy,both gas and electric and all the rest. Also becoming more important every year that passes is the elixir of life itself, water.

      Countries have gone to war for such assets. England effectively already owns them ,so why let them go now?

    61. I just hope tae f@ck he doesnae demand the ` injecting bleach` cure.

    62. Dan says:

      That’s braw Chris, you’ve really captured the crop on that Turkey! 🙂

      Colin Dunn has a crowdfunder on the go. Wonder if Mr Murrel might consider directing some of that muckle Indy fund dosh to the fund as Colin appears to be doing more for the independence cause than some…

    63. Stuart MacKay says:


      As Iain Lawson and others have said already, reform of the NEC is the minimum that’s required. It should be the bridge between the membership and the leadership and the guardian of the constitution. The leadership is one sense should be at the command of the NEC though I don’t know what form it should take. It certainly can’t be the other way round.

      The end result should be a clear separation of powers. Despite current circumstances, the founding fathers of the USA understood that point well. That lesson needs to be relearned here so
      gerrymandering and parachuting of favoured candidates should be impossible. Want a seat? Go live there and work your way up from the bottom. You’ll be a better candidate for it and you constituency will be better served.

    64. Breeks says:

      One or two glitches in the podcast, but still recommend you listen.

      She started out saying pretty much what I’ve been banging on about for years about Constitutional Sovereignty and WHY it has to be defended. WE WILL NOT WIN, EVER, until we familiarise ourselves with Scotland’s Constitution. WE WILL WIN, WHEN WE DO!

      The UK Constitution is well described as “fog”, but Scotland’s Constitution, it’s origins, it’s provenance, the popular sovereignty of the people,… ought to be crystal clear to every single one of us, and defended as we would defend life itself.

      However, as I’ve now come to expect, people will not dwell on the matter, but instead home in of what the SNP and it’s feckless NEC have been getting up to.

      What has Scotland ever done to be cursed with Sturgeon and her useless cabal, at a precious time when Scotland need only trip and it would fall down an Independent Country. It makes me so fkg angry.

    65. Famous15 says:

      In this caring,loving,sympathetic modern world awake to the trials besetting our fellow humans I am surprised that the neurological effects of Covid19 have not aroused sympathy for those making wrong judgements while suffering from this virus.

      I would advise Margaret Ferrier not to resign until the full diagnosis of her illness is known.

      Yes I have altered my view from yesterday when I was overcome with anger but cool reflection demands better information.

    66. tridentitycrisis says:

      Hubris is always followed by Nemesis according to the ancient Greeks.

      Exam Question NO.1 – Compare and contrast these self-styled macho males with the performances of various female leaders around the world: e.g. Jacinda Arden of NZ, Tsai Ing-wen of Taiwan, Angela Merkel of Germany, Erna Solberg of Norway.
      Exam Question NO.2 – Should men be barred from positions of power above that of junior assistant file clerk for the next 200 years?
      Exam Question NO.3 – If you could go back in time and kill Donald Trump when he was 45 years old, which method would you use: Fire & Brimstone; Pouring molten gold down his throat; Strangling him with his own hair?

    67. tridentitycrisis says:

      Hubris is always followed by Nemesis according to the ancient Greeks – Johnson, Bolsonaro and Trump.

      Exam Question NO.1 – Compare and contrast these self-styled macho males with the performances of various female leaders around the world: e.g. Jacinda Arden of NZ, Tsai Ing-wen of Taiwan, Angela Merkel of Germany, Erna Solberg of Norway and Nicola Sturgeon.
      Exam Question NO.2 – Should men be barred from positions of power above that of junior assistant file clerk for the next 200 years?
      Exam Question NO.3 – If you could go back in time and kill Donald Trump when he was 45 years old, which method would you use: Fire & Brimstone; Pouring molten gold down his throat; Strangling him with his own hair?

    68. Mist001 says:

      Ferrier still hasn’t gone. More than happy to tell others what to do and would have strongly supported the punishment of any of us who were caught breaking the law in the same way.

      These are the kind of snivelling little shits that are in charge of Scotland.

      Turns my stomach.

    69. Republicofscotland says:

      Clydebuilt @11.38am.

      My comment was composed on what Douglas Ross thought, he’s not pleased at his Southern Tory comrades, in that they think independence is inevitable, if Ross is to be believed.

      Of course it goes without saying that the Tory government will do everything within its powers, and probably more, to keep Scotland in this horrendous union.

    70. Republicofscotland says:

      Kapelmeister @11.40am.

      I haven’t seen the building but I’ll take your word on that, and I agree it will be a positive asset in an independent Scotland, not an negative one as it is now.

      AS for its current name, the SNP governments flagship hospital once called the Southern General, is also named after that foreign monarch Elizabeth. Name changes to important buildings away from QEII need to happen in an independent Scotland.

    71. Cag-does-thinking says:

      Isn’t it funny that I was just about to do the unthinkable and cut Margaret Ferrier a break and Famous 15 did it about the same time. Now I don’t know her at all, but I do know it’s hard for those of us who can;’t get a Coronavirus test this side of doomesday to be as aware that those and such as those to do with the state get tested pretty regularly as soon as they get a dog hair in their nose. I’m not saying that makes them complacent but it’s just a thing that has to be done sometimes without any symptoms at all.

      From the looks of her diary on the day she was tested she was being a conscientious constituency MP going round the local businesses that would like somebody to give them a boost (bet they have a lot more publicity than they can handle now of course….) before heading back to Westminster. That routineness of having lots of things to do and less time ot think about what would happen if something unthinkable happened may be a contributary factor in what came after.

      Now I’m not sure I would be any different if I took ill on a trip away and wanted to get back to my support network and familiar surroundings. I’d like to think I’d make a different decision but I can see why you might think “Oh God I have to get home”. I don’t know what family repsonsibilities she might have.

      And then I read of course Boris’s response to a perfectly reasonable request from the Welsh First Minister. Like the whole place Wales has been wrestling with a spike in cases and has banned travel out of locked down areas for what as far as I can see, good sensible reasons. We had it here, they had it in Ireland in phase one. And they had it mostly in england unless you were the pal of the PM or a Royal heading for Balmoral. But the PM’s response is that it doens’t really matter whether the govenments of Scotland or Wales wish to restrict travel from England. He doesn’t want to so that’s that. Not based on scientific reasons. He just doesn’t want to. If you live in a locked down area in England, just get out the camper van nad head for somewhere that doesn’t have any Covid apart form the stuff you bring with you. Or Wales. Any pretence that this is an equal union was just blown wide apart by that simple statement this morning. England says no because it can.

    72. Shug says:

      You have to remember anything built by Westminster will be riddled with bugs

    73. Republicofscotland says:


      Kim Jong Un, has a unique way of removing buildings he thinks might be bugged by a foreign government.

    74. Shug says:

      There was an embassy many years ago had to be rebuild as either the Russia or Americans had put so many bugs in the walls

    75. kapelmeister says:


      “…anything built by Westminster will be riddled with bugs”.

      Well, Alistair Jack will be often there, so that’s at least one louse.

    76. kapelmeister says:

      Sorry Shug not Smug. Autocorrect at work.

    77. Beaker says:

      @Ottomanboi says:
      3 October, 2020 at 11:56 am
      SNP goes ‘virtual’.
      “If Zoom platforming, maybe need a timely reminder of the downside.”

      Have a look on YouTube at Zoom meetings. Mainly from the US, some of them are really funny.

    78. Dan says:

      Jim Fairlie calling it like it is.

      Jim is up against several others including Stephen Gethins in the SNP candidate selection process for Perthshire South & Kinross-shire.
      Excellent to be endorsed by Joanna Cherry, amongst notable others, if it helps members in that area decide to support him.

    79. kapelmeister says:

      Dan @1:35

      Fairlie would be an excellent addition to the SNP group at Holyrood. It’s good to see he gets that endorsement from Joanna Cherry.

    80. A Person says:


      I’m afraid I don’t agree. We have too many natural assets for them to want rid of us, and the blow to the ruling class’ ego of “losing” Scotland (a telling phrase) would be awful. They will pull out any stops to prevent independence.

    81. Mist001 says:

      Off the top of my head, I think Zoom video calls are limited to 45 minutes for free. If you want longer, then you have to pay.

      So if the SNP are going to hold their conference over Zoom, then they’re going to have to ask the virtual attendees to stump up the cash if they want to participate.

      So, they have to contact the membership first of all and find out how many are willing to pay and I’ll bet not many.

      I wouldn’t pay for Zoom when there are many less expensive and free alternatives out there.

      Zoom has only been going for about five minutes and not so long ago, maybe two months ago, they got hacked and a lot of personal data stolen.

      I smell a scam coming up.

    82. kapelmeister says:


      And if the SNP’s virtual conference is stage-managed then Sturgeon’s woeful leadership will be the elephant in the Zoom.

    83. bipod says:

      The unknown neurological effects of covid? I can’t tell if you are being serious as there are quite a few people these days that think that covid causes every illness under the sun. Its conspiracy theory land.

      The biggest mistake that ferrier made was taking that test in the first place. She said she felt absolutely fine and only had very mild symptoms during the weekend, if she stuck it out for one day longer none of us would have been any the wiser. That will be the conclusion that many people, not employeed in the public sector and don’t have the luxury of isolation themselves for 14 days will take.

    84. Keith fae Leith says:


      Zoom can be upgraded for a cost of £15 a month for unlimited time & unlimited numbers.

      The simplest of internet searches could have found that info in <1 minute.

      Away & smell what your shoveling.

      There are plenty genuine scams to rumble, why don't you focus your "keen" sense of smell towards them?

    85. Robert Graham says:

      A brief look at BBC Scotlands website on the iPad , features Dross ” Independence not inevitable ” Aye ok son away and sit in some fkrs corner until the Adults take control .

      The Bridge ” No Laughing now ” I can’t believe the National Propaganda Unit even considered this to be a story , I guess that they really believe all Jocks are brain dead and Stupid.

      That’s it apart from the Donald’s drama Queen Act to avoid a serious kick in the Nuts in November

      So the Dumb Jocks are treated to what’s referred to as Same Shit different day syndrome . Or to put it slightly differently What we don’t know doesn’t hurt us and by fk they are past masters of keeping stuff hidden from the plebs up in Jock land, makes you feel safe and wanted eh .

    86. indyfan says:

      @leggypeggy 10.21

      Yes, I’m well aware of the process for applying for delegate passes having been a branch convener, just as I am aware that visitors can’t vote. Not all branches pay for their delegates though, although most will pay at least a share if the member submits a request due to financial difficulties.Many don’t bother to go that route because perhaps they would rather not have it known that they can’t afford the cost. It would be interesting to know if more people who usually cannot attend due to disability/ caring responsibilities attend on line although it is likely there will be no way to tell.
      In this day and age with the internet et al I find it hard to comprehend why ALL members cannot have a vote for members of the NEC at the very least

    87. Dan says:

      @ Keith fae Leith

      How much data would Zoom gobble up in a Conference type setting? A quick google suggest up to 2.4GB an hour!
      FFS that can’t be right can it? Not everyone has wads of cash for unlimited data use, and lives in an area with good internet connection.

    88. James Che. says:

      Basically we should, under a world health crises be able to close our border, under lockdown,
      I believe the treaty of the union does not have any Pacific references to pandemics, and who would control that, it all so states that Scots law is still legal,
      Does the Scotland act mention worldwide pandemics ?

    89. Keith fae Leith says:

      Hi Dan,

      Good point well made, I was merely countering the claim that somehow the SNP will be scamming their members by using Zoom.

      Having used it myself (as host) for a maximum of 4 hours & 90 participants, I know that the upgrade is available, you can cancel it straight away & there are no extra hidden costs.

      As to how much data it consumes, I’ve no idea. I’m one of the fortunate ones who has unlimited fibre-optic data. I do appreciate that this can be a problem & didn’t mean to be dismissive of the members in those situations.

    90. wull says:

      With regard to my btl piece on the previous article (‘Parking the Buses’) in the early hours of the morning, many thanks to all those who have so graciously commented on it. Disagreement is also welcome, of course. If anyone wants to copy post or publish it further, wherever and on whatever platform they like, they are most welcome to do so.

    91. dakk says:

      Cop out, or genuine cause for concern regards unusual irrational behaviour?

      A case study into new covid patient Donald Trump may not enlighten us.

      Nice one Chris

    92. Bob Mack says:


      Thanks Wull. I actually read it about four times because it struck home. This ultimately is not just about the one indivudual. It is about much more than that.

      You highlighted that beautifully. When you become the story instead of just a character in it, then it’s time to go.

    93. Graeme says:

      Humza Yousaf
      1 Oct
      So angry & disappointed in Margaret, someone I consider a friend. However, being a friend or opponent in this regard is irrelevant. Her actions were utterly reckless. Police enforcement is of course an operational matter, but I support any action Police deem necessary.
      Quote Tweet
      Margaret Ferrier MP


      With friends like Humza Yousaf who needs enemies, why even mention police action nobody else I’ve seen has mentioned it, what an odious backstabbing little shitebag he is

    94. Bob Mack says:


      Supporting police action seems to be a hobby within the SNP higher echelons. Wonder who he learned that from?

    95. Willie says:

      Margaret Ferrier made a mistake. But it is not a hanging matter.

      She travelled to London before she knew the result of a test. On learning of the test results she then did what many people would do, returned home to self isolate.

      Unlike Dominic Cummings who travelled 300 miles for an eyesight test, and who stopped his car and walked to a beauty spot to be sick, the difference is staggering.

      The smell of rotten politics is overpowering.

    96. Daisy Walker says:

      Message for Justice Minister Humza Yousaf,

      So angry and disappointed in the SNP – a party I consider to be my natural Voting home, however, loyalty to ones party or opposition party in this case is irrelevant.
      Failure to publish the accounts for a Ring Fenced crowd funded sum of money, leaves the party – quite rightly – open to allegations of incompetence, financial irregularity, and reasonable cause for concern of Embezzlement or Fraud.
      Police enforcement is of course an operational matter, but I support any action the Police deem necessary.

      Former SNP member, lifelong voter for the SNP, now considering my options.

    97. Strathy says:

      Excellent article, wull. Spot on.

      AS told her that Murrell as Chief Exec was a bad idea. The Party, MSPs and MPs all controlled by one couple. He was right.

      Absolute power, over many years, has had the inevitable effect.

    98. Bob Mack says:

      Calling Mrs Yousaf. Humza might have found a seat for you to stand in, courtesy of the police.

    99. kapelmeister says:

      English Tory MP Peter Gibson travelled home by train in March after having been told his symptoms could be covid. He got slapped on the wrist by party and media.

      Margaret Ferrier does something similar and she’s front page news and treated as if she’s a war criminal. Including being vilified and cast out by senior, and rather suspect, people in her own party.

      Surely the most fair and sensible response would have been a middle course between the leniency shown to Peter Gibson and the excessive harshness shown to Margaret Ferrier.

    100. CameronB Brodie says:

      You politics appear to articulate a philosophical stance that fails to acknowledge the significance of biological reality, and which seeks to subourdinate nature to the will of man. So you appear to approach the concept of justice from the same direction as the ‘Spear agenda’. Subsequently, I think you could do with some moral instruction, as you appear hostile towards the mutually supporting legal principles of “universality” and “equality in law”.

      Introduction to Moral Theories and Principles that inform ethical decision making in healthcare

    101. Dan says:

      @ Keith fae Leith

      Nae bother, was merely asking as this move towards online meetings and discourse being the only way to communicate because of covid restrictions feels like it is disenfranchising folk from having any say in matters.
      Basically you now have to be sufficiently affluent, internet connected, with appropriate IT kit and skills or your input will be lost.
      Maybe I am just a luddite but what would be the issue with sending a survey to members to complete and return so a true picture of what the membership aligns with could be obtained.
      How can one or a few delegates for a Branch at an online conference cast votes a certain way to influence the direction the Party takes without knowing if that view is supported by the majority of their Branch members.

      Meanwhile… List Party voting continues to be discussed…

      Why is it some folk disparaging the concept of a Pro-Indy List Party can’t or won’t recognise that there are issues with particular SNP and Green party policies and behaviours that mean voting for them is now difficult for some people.

      If it is a Craig Dalzell states, all about building a Pro-Indy majority within the electorate, surely having an alternate Pro-Indy Party option for folk scunnered with SNP or Greens pursuing batshit policies would be a good democratic way to go rather than disenfranchising these people.

    102. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I had a look at the details of the Recall of MPs Act – 2015, which is the only mechanism for getting Margaret Ferrier out of the HoC.

      To remove her:

      She would need to be sent to prison for less than one year – or –

      Be suspended fromt he House for 10 sitting days, or 14 calendar days, following a report by the Committee on Standards – or –

      be convicted for providing false or misleading expenses claims.

      After one of these conditions is met, the Speaker has to inform the returning officer for the constituency, who sets the process in motion. The returning officer has ten days inwhich toset thngs up.

      There are then six weeks during which 10% of the electorate in the constituency have to vote for the MPs removal.

      In Margaret Ferrier’s case, it will take 8083 votes to remove her.

      There have only been three efforts to remove an Mp by these means, with two of them succeeding, and thereby triggering a by-election.

      It might happen, but, Ah hae ma doots.

    103. Beaker says:

      @Dan says:
      3 October, 2020 at 2:57 pm
      “How much data would Zoom gobble up in a Conference type setting? A quick google suggest up to 2.4GB an hour!
      FFS that can’t be right can it? Not everyone has wads of cash for unlimited data use, and lives in an area with good internet connection.”

      I got a unlimited data sim through Carphone Warehouse offshoot for £21 per month. Got a dongle from work.

      Downside is the ISP is Three4G, which means download speeds vary considerably…

      A Zoom Conference? Stand by for “technical difficulties” when the awkward squad arrives.

    104. John H. says:

      Sorry if this has been posted before. A lady posted it on WGD.I don’t imagine she’ll be very popular there because of the truths in it. A podcast by barrheadboy with Dot Jessiman.

    105. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m very rusty and certainly not claiming I’m an expert or have extensive professional practice, but ensuring due legal process and access to the Right to Health was pretty much central to my professional training. That’s why I know Scots have been criminally let down by the failure of our legal offices and legal Establishment, to defend the potential for Scots to enjoy access to their Right to Health (see Brexit). Tories the lot of them, apparently.

      BMJ 1994;309:184 (16 July)
      Medical ethics: four principles plus attention to scope

    106. Stan Broadwood says:

      Message to Margaret Ferrier:-

      Tell Sturgeon to take a hike.

      Tell Sturgeon you don’t want to be associated with her or her husband and that you will become an independent MP at Westminster, standing up for your constituents and fighting for Scottish Independence.

    107. CameronB Brodie says:

      So the first thing the SNP needs to do is purge the ‘Spear agenda’ and start recognising natal women as a legal phenomena of equal significance to natal men. If they hope to support the principles of open democracy that is. They might also discover a capacity to defend Scotland’s constitutional identity, which is presently obscured to them by their anti-foundational approach to law and politics.

      Ethical Theory and Moral Practice (2020)
      Epistemic Injustice and the Attention Economy

    108. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Socrates MacSporran –

      Curious for your thoughts on the current state of Scottish football with regard to this fekkin bug.

      Listening to Sportsound today, they spoke to Neil Doncaster and another senior official (didn’t catch the name) and they were having a discussion about how serious it all is, how clubs will almost certainly go to the wall, the blatant unfairness and incomprehensibility of the restrictions etc. Wullie Miller then discussed it with Richard Gordon and Billy Dodds, Michael Stewart etc, the usual crowd, and they all-but called out the Scottish Govt for killing the game over decisions which appear to be ‘political’ rather than ‘clinically-driven’.

      Then, who should pipe up but yon Jason Leitch, who must’ve been listening and wanted to refute any suggestion that decisions being made are ‘political’. It was a recorded statement, no discussion, and I honestly don’t think I’ve heard such patronising shite in my whole life.

      The gist of his spiel was- ‘These decisions have to be made and we’re the people who have to make them and that’s that. It’s a complex business.’ etc etc. Honestly, that’s a fair paraphrase of what he said before getting tied in knots. It was toe-curling rubbish.

      In other words, youse are just daft fitba fans and we’re imposing these restrictions on you because we can, and don’t you thick baw-kickers dare question it.

      It really sticks in the craw that Off The Ball actually host this bellend every Saturday and blow smoke up his hole to boot. I daresay they probably don’t have much choice in the matter but if other listeners are like me they’ll be voting with their OFF switches.

    109. Republicofscotland says:

      A Person @1.51pm.

      I totally agree with that, I was trying to put across that Ross, feels that his masters down South aren’t trying hard enough to save the union. But we know fine well they won’t let us leave without using every dirty trick in the book first.

    110. Stan Broadwood says:

      This whole Margaret Ferrier affair is getting more and more like the Cassandra Crossing movie by the day.

      The Cassandra Crossing was about a train travelling in Europe with a passenger spreading a deadly virus amongst the passengers.

      In the end, all the passengers on board contracted the deadly virus.

      To find out more about the movie you will need to watch it.

      My point being, the SNP and everyone else seem to be hounding Margaret Ferrier way above anyone else who has committed a similar offence.

      Call the hounds off Nicola.

      I see a big deflection taking place here by the SNP, taking the heat off her and her man, even for a few days.

      Well we see through that wee move Sturgeon

      The Murrell’s are still as guilty as hell.

    111. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m certainly not defending the response to covid-19, as I know a bit about policy development, public health, and crisis management. I’m also not suggesting my opinion is sacrosanct, as I’m rusty and have insufficient evidence in front of me. I’m guided by theory and instinct, and I try to remember that it’s ultimately the Tories calling the shots, and they are ideologically hostile towards public health ethics and the principle of equality in law. 🙁

      Law and Method
      Comparative Rights Jurisprudence: An Essay on Methodologies. Special Issue – Comparative Law

    112. Andy Ellis says:


      I’m not sure “the South” will in the final analysis be all that unhappy if Scotland goes its own way. I think the precious union matters much more to Scots unionists than it does to *most* English voters. Frankly the majority know little and care even less about Scotland.

      Even if the governing elites fear being labelled as those who “lost” Scotland, I have a feeling that the lumpen electorate will quickly decide the game isn’t worth the candle holding on to “cantankerous Jocks”: remember we’re talking about an English electorate who still support brexit, and who gave the Tories an 80 seat majority a scant 10 months ago.

      Things could turn quickly: in the end the Tories will jettison Scotland in a New York minute if they calculate they lose more at home by trying to hold on to us than by keeping us.

    113. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      Glad that Victoria Gianopoulos-Johnson is gone from the ISP. Personally never liked her from the start; too vain, preening, and opinionated, revelling in all her attention as a New Scot. And a proven political hindrance too, if her strange hard swing from left to right vis-a-vis American politics and supporting Trump is concerned. Guess there was a Republican/Tory lurking not far beneath that wannabe-famous veneer.

    114. Dan says:

      Gianopoulos? Beware of Greeks bearing gifts n’ aw that.

    115. Hatuey says:

      ian Brotherhood, what are you suggesting should have happened with football? You seem to be arguing that the restrictions on fans and football are unnecessary.

      I think a lot of unnecessary stuff has taken place. Had we gone into lock down earlier and tightened the borders, we could have stamped this virus out almost entirely.

      Instead Nicola and Jason tried to sell us Herd Immunity. They deny that now, but that was the intention. They stopped trying to sell it when westminster which was calling the shots bottled it. Puzzling that they’re trying it on again now.

      I’m from glasgow and would be happy to see all glasgow football clubs go to the wall. The damage their tribal crap does to society is unacceptable. It’s the same with pubs.

      Why are we being asked to give special consideration to industries that basically inject poison into society? Fuck them.

    116. CameronB Brodie says:

      I try very hard not to express opinion that is not coherent and compatible with ethical, inclusive, legal practice. So I would hope folk might trust me by now, when I say I know a bit about this stuff. Scotland must not be removed from the EU, but certainly not while covid-19 is at large. Scots have biological rights, even if our legal Establishment wishes not to recognise them, and in fact seek to deny us any potential to access them. How very Nazi of our legal Establishment. 🙁

      OECD Policy Responses to Coronavirus (COVID-19)
      The territorial impact of COVID-19: Managing the crisis across levels of government
      Updated 16 June 2020

    117. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      I honestly thought this bug was the best chance ever for Scottish Fitba to sort itself out. However, I also recognised, for that to happen, there would need to be an outbreak of common sense and intelligence along the sixth-floor corridor at Hampden – and that is unlikely to happen.

      I thought Mike Mullraney spoke well, but, it is the same old problem with the SFA – what they do next will depend on what Peter Lawwell decides is in the best interests of Celtic. (In years past it was what was in the best interests of the Old Firm, but, Rangers have enough problems of their own at the moment.)

      The majority of Scotland’s clubs COULD be performing in front of crowds, with correct social distancing, but, I don’t think the football officials could be trusted to organise things properly around the rules.

      Social distancing will never work with the Bigot Brothers, their fans simply would not obey the rules.

      Also, I doubt if there is any real interest within the ruling elite of the SG in sport as a whole, far-less football. The game is well down the list of priorities, so, I don’t see anything happening any time soon.

      In fact, I am fairly certain, we will lost a few clubs before this is over. This will be sad for these clubs, communities and fans, but, in the longer run, just bring about the roots-up changes we need to make Scottish football fit for purpose.

      I think, by the way, Scottish Rugby, while also making mistakes, are better placed than the SFA to come out of this reasonably well placed to move forward.

    118. Hatuey says:

      “In years past it was what was in the best interests of the Old Firm, but, Rangers have enough problems of their own at the moment.”

      I concur. Ceasing to exist can be problematic.

    119. Tinto Chiel says:

      @Ian B 6.14: the discussion was between Neil Doncaster and Mike Mulraney, vice-president of the SFA, I think. I’d be interested in Socrates’ opinion but I don’t listen anymore to recorded statements from the likes of Leitch. Come on and argue your case face to face but don’t hide behind a PR release. I get the feeling Stuart Cosgrove in particular is uncomfortable with Leitch’s magnificent interventions.

      The BBC are firmly behind the relentless pushing of the Cummings Covid agenda so it’s little surprise Radio Shortbread play Jason’s wee tape for him.

      I suspect those at the top of the SG (and probably many on here) view football as a predominantly male, working-class preoccupation and therefore not worthy of consideration but there is little doubt clubs will go to the wall the longer that this goes on and it won’t be the big city teams but the small-town community ones, clubs which contribute to these towns’ sense of identity.

      This could perhaps be accepted as a price worth paying if the inconsistencies in the Covid regulations post-total lockdown were not so glaring obvious e.g. hundreds of people on a plane cheek by jowl on an aircraft is fine (great lobbying by the likes of BA and Ryanair) but a few hundred supporters spaced out in stadia capable of absorbing thousands is not.

    120. Republicofscotland says:

      “I’m not sure “the South” will in the final analysis be all that unhappy if Scotland goes its own way. I think the precious union matters much more to Scots unionists than it does to *most* English voters. Frankly the majority know little and care even less about Scotland.”

      Andy Ellis.

      Yes I tend to agree with that, the majority of the English voters don’t have a dog in the fight and although some will be sad to see us leave, as you say most won’t be too bothered about it.

      The Tory government though wants to continue to asset strip Scotland, as former British governments have done for 313 years. Add in a plethora of Tory donor businessmen/women who make a tidy sum from exploiting Scotland in one way or another, and it becomes much clearer why the British government will do everything in their power to keep Scotland tied to this dreadful union.

      I think Scottish unionists consists of those who benefit financially from it or politically, those who have an affinity with it, such as the elderly ( though not all older folk) and those who loathe themselves that much that they can’t bear to be Scottish, but thrive on the thought of being British.

    121. Mist001 says:

      @ Beaker

      Exactly. It’s a scam. There WILL be technical difficulties but I suspect it will be cancelled due to lack of participants which allows them to say that they ‘tried’ to hold the conference.

      Fuck’s sake, we’re led to believe that the Murrells don’t discuss matters with each other in their own house, yet they’re going to have an online conference!!

    122. stuart mctavish says:

      Graeme @4:11
      Since Humza’s comment is clearly intended to stir up hatred against a sick woman it is to be hoped that the minimum action that the police might deem necessary would be a 4 am visit to ensure he is aware of the contents of his hate crime bill and allow him time to avail his senior colleagues of same.

      Whilst at it, he could also oblige them to issue a formal apology to any SNP members among Margaret Ferrier’s staff who, pursuant to official SNP rhetoric, must currently face the hobson choice of resigning from their job or the party.

    123. Tannadice Boy says:

      Watching the 1978 fitba campaign on BBC Scotland. We have been in dire straits before. I was disheartened then as now but we came back from that disaster and we will rise again.

    124. Breastplate says:

      Ian B 6:14pm,
      The future of many Scottish clubs hang in the balance because what we have now is financially unsustainable. No point paying for stadia with no fans.
      If this continues much longer we may as well be think about competing with PES or FIFA on the Xbox.

    125. Robert Graham says:

      I Have noticed a fair amount of comments regarding Margaret Ferriers actions or alleged actions .
      Question as I haven’t seen a verified account or her actions by the MP herself so with all due respect any comment is at best conjecture and assumption .

      The SNP as a political party ,their representatives must be either brainless and lacking the political will to deflect and at least show some kind of support for a long established colleague , citing in her defence , the daily if not weekly variations to restrictions issued by the Tory Government, also the previous movements of HM Prince Charlie , Government Adviser Cummings and I guess many others who are conveniently forgotten by Humsa when he made his Police comment , as was mentioned ” With friends like him who needs enemies ” .

      Throwing Colleagues under , well looks like they are running out of busses so I guess any moving object will do as long as it matches the speed of light the SNP management have perfected , any slight or even suspected indiscretion is not only jumped on from a great height its totally obliterated , innocent until till proven otherwise seems to have been forgotten in the rush to wipe out the suspected perpetrator , its really a very unsavoury site watching the party machine at work .

      Ok on the face of it she apparently made some not so clever decisions that’s easy to criticise in hindsight , Hindsight a gift that eludes everyone but seems to be recited as total fact when it suits

    126. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Socrates MacSporran (7.17) –

      Cheers for response.

      Much food for thought.

    127. Mist001 says:

      Margaret Ferrier was nobody of note until by a quirk of fate, she found herself elected to the Scottish parliament for SNP. Suddenly, she found herself catapaulted into an unimaginable life of an MPs salary, a virtually unlimited expense account, a private office in Westminster and all the associated trappings.

      So she has all that but not one single shred of integrity.

      She won’t give up her current lifestyle just because of the trivial act of breaking the law. She can pay the fine, say it was part of her parliamentary business and reclaim the fine on expenses.

      And you want people like THAT running an independent Scotland?

      She should have been fired immediately or forced into a position where she had no option other than resign exactly as happened with Dr Catherine Calderwood.

    128. CameronB Brodie says:

      If the Scottish government believes that their legal duty to protect public health is in any way coherent of compatible with their determination to force Scots law to reject medical philosophy and bioethics (see ‘Spear agenda’), then they are not competent to run a bath. Let alone defend a national against xenophobic and populist constitutional majoritarianism. If only Scotland’s legal Establishment weren’t so parochial and Tory in outlook and practice, Scots might be able to enjoy the benefits of democracy. Sigh.

      Rightness as Justifiability: Thomas Scanlon’s moral contractualism


      This text presents an overview of the moral theory developed by Thomas Scanlon in response to the failure of utilitarianism to justify valid moral principles, and the incapacity of consequentialism to explain the importance we attach to respecting the legitimate demands of others.

      It starts by presenting the objectives motivating contractualism, and then explains the reasons why this theory conceives of the underpinnings of morality in terms of interpersonal justifiability, insisting on what distinguishes moral contractualism from the political theories put forward by advocates of the social contract, from Hobbes to Rawls.

      Finally, it presents contractualist moral reasoning in detail, and tests the claims of the theory: is it really able to defend judgements that match our intuitions without presupposing consequentialist judgements?

    129. Gfaetheblock says:

      Couple of things:

      Mist001 doesn’t know what he is talking about re zoom. If the host has a premium account, then it is free for the attendees, it is a well respected and competent tech company that had a minor data breach that is irreverent for context that this is getting discussed here, there is loads of info on it in the internet.

      Re ferrier, and am astounded that folk on here are defending her. She has acted like an idiot, wilfullly broke rules twice, once when she knew she had symptoms and once when she had the fucking disease that we have all turned our lives upside over for the last six months. She has endangered hundreds and is a national disgrace. What amazes me that someone this stupid and arrogant was seen fit to put forward as a MP. She may have lost the whip, but every day that she is in the public eye, she embarrasses the SNP and the Indy movement.

    130. Republicofscotland says:

      “I Have noticed a fair amount of comments regarding Margaret Ferriers actions”

      Robert Graham@9.22pm.

      Yes we shouldn’t focus too much on Margaret Ferrier, we know she’s done wrong, and that she should probably stand down, however we must keep our focus on independence, and those who wish to block it within the SNP, Civil service and the Scottish government.

    131. Tannadice Boy says:

      @CameronB Brodie 9 52pm
      Now that’s a beezer of a post!

    132. A Person says:

      -Republicofscotland at 6.19-

      My mistake, apologies to you.

    133. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tannadice Boy
      Thanks, I do my best. 😉

      Handbook of Bioethics pp 183-202
      Philosophy of Medicine and Medical Ethics: A Phenomenological Perspective


      The phenomenological orientation I have taken differs from the usual derivations of the ethics of medicine from the applications of existing moral philosophies to medical practice. It departs from the many current alternative ethical theories like narrative, casuistry, caring and principlism.

      Each of these, however, grasps some aspect of the life-world of doctor and patient. None is by itself sufficient as a philosophy or ethic of the clinical encounter. By bracketing these theories at the outset, the phenomenological orientation offers an alternative which may come closer to the thing in itself; namely, what medicine is as a human experience and a moral enterprise.

      Medical Ethic Clinical Encounter Phenomenological Analysis Philosophical Inquiry Moral Diversity

    134. Astonished says:

      stuart mctavish says:
      3 October, 2020 at 8:16 pm
      Graeme @4:11.

      May I concur with both your views.

    135. Astonished says:

      stuart mctavish at 8:16 pm and
      Graeme @4:11.

      May I concur with both your views.

    136. Astonished says:

      Sorry .But regarding hamza yusuf worth repeating.

    137. CameronB Brodie says:

      It might be purely coincidental, but both the Tories and the ‘Spear agenda’ seek to separate Scots further from international human right law, and to prevent us from accessing our right to be healthy and to live in a safe and healthy environment. That’s what rejecting the Natural law and Common law reasoning does.

      International Library of Ethics, Law, and the New Medicine © 2000

      The Hermeneutics of Medicine and the Phenomenology of Health: Steps towards a Philosophy of Medical Practice

    138. Tannadice Boy says:

      @CameronB Brodie
      Great stuff. It’s always a good day when I see my grandchildren. Emergency support needed so within the Covid Regulations. The bank of Mum n Dad. Horrible weather though. My highland wife always grounds me. So on the way back she persuaded me not to proceed with legal action. We have decided to proceed with releasing the case we have got to the English press. Look for a story next week about Grace Queletti. Less expensive than a court case.

    139. Republicofscotland says:

      A Person @1020pm.

      No need to apologise, we’re all on the same side.

    140. Ian Brotherhood says:

      FTAO those who have been following Craig Murray’s work –

    141. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tannadice Boy
      Thanks. This stuff might be intellectually dry and a bit of a turn-off, but this is the sort of stuff you need to know if you are serious about supporting democracy and the rule-of-law. The right to health can’t be separated from democracy and the rule-of-law, all three are mutually supportive and interdependent cultural institutions.

      Scots are simply being denied constitutional government that respects the legal principles of “universality” and “equality in law”, as our legal Establishment are criminally Tory in outlook and practice. And the SNP have been infiltrated by poorly trained ideological zealots.

      International Journal of Feminist Approaches to Bioethics, List of Issues > Vol. 11, No. 2, Fall 2018, pp. 1-13
      Introduction: Feminist Phenomenology, Medicine, Bioethics, and Health

    142. Famous15 says:

      Mist001 you do know that an MP cannot be simply sacked? The SNP have suspended her ,due process, and withdrawn the whip,most they could do.

      BUT she could be seriously ill and your obvious posturing is not on her urgent list.

      She was astoundingly wrong but I still wonder if the illness itself affected her judgement.

      I do not know and neither does anyone else know at this time.

    143. Tannadice Boy says:

      @CameronB Brodie
      I agree with you well said. I shouldn’t need to call on the English press for justice. But I have lost confidence in Scottish Institutions and the Judiciary.

    144. ElGordo says:

      Not until the terms of brexit are known.

    145. Alec Lomax says:

      Trump walks into the clinic with a huge toad on his head, the Doctor, taken aback, says ‘whoa, how did you get that?’ the toad explains ‘well, it started out as a big ugly boil on my butt’

    146. Stan Broadwood says:

      Independence is getting handed to Sturgeon on a plate, and all she can do is push it away.

    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      sorry…. this is the sort of stuff you need to know if you are serious effective about supporting democracy and the rule-of-law.

      Scotland’s constitutional emancipation doesn’t really have much of a chance until we can bring our criminally right wing legal Establishment to heel. Simples.

      Empirical Ethics in Psychiatry
      Theory and methodology of empirical ethics: a pragmatic hermeneutic perspective

    148. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alec Lomax 🙂

    149. Lizg says:

      We are all here to gain the “luxury “of condemning all well paid politicians for their behaviour and roll on the day we have such a right, but right now we don’t !
      In independent Scotland I’d like to think we would not put up with this sort of thing on any level and we Scots would have our representatives in such a position that they wouldn’t dare.
      As I said the other night we might want to think of wearing our Indy hat on this.

      The British Nationalists (of all stripes) will take care of the condemnation side of things over her and still say not a word of their own peoples behaviour.
      So the massive condemnation box has been well ticked and will nae doubt continue to be too.
      Should we join the fray?

      The balance is surely ( as usual) out…. we’re left shouting alone about the behaviour of ALL politicians and the British only notice ours .
      Ours are condemned on every platform and at every level and theirs not so much!
      Do we really want to do this?

      No one ( and certainly not her ) is saying that she is innocent of the accusations but should we not at least offer her the same protections as the British do to theirs, ( we are stuck in their system after all) and at a minimum hold our own council till we are free to consider if she’s Holyrood fit ?
      And…. AND apply our OWN standards to the issue?

      Why are we “joining ” in a British led British style pile on .
      Which potentially ( remember that Indy hat ) throws an already risky seat which was safely Scottish into British hands!
      Or should we front it out and not help bring that seat into play?
      While mibbi no the arguably right thing to do , it’s certainly the political move we, I think ,should be willing to make.

      I never said she was right to do what she did , ( like the supporters of the others who messed up try to do ) I’m saying that given all the circumstances that we know of just now , it is defendable.
      Every one has a pain or symptoms that go away or reduce on making an appointment or getting a prescription …. that’s why the ” took the test felt better ” thing rings true to me.
      She could have even felt a bit silly going for the test and just put her original symptoms down to an over reaction.
      Carried on …. and got the shock of her life when told she was positive ?
      And as , I said , with a potential death sentence confirmed getting home when still able to is an understandable reaction….. no the correct one fur sure….but understandable.
      If this is no evil personified E.G. Creating a detention centre/concentration camp on an island but rather the demonstration that even a fancy salary won’t overcome the instincts to get hame.
      Why should the Yes movement risk being a man down in the coming confrontation ?
      They sure as shit never would!

    150. Ian Brotherhood says:

      ‘It is the most important political trial of this century, certainly one of the most important of my lifetime, and it’s been virtually blacked out by most of the so-called, misnamed, mainstream media.’

      John Pilger

    151. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry but I’m still not making sense….this is the sort of stuff you need to know if you are serious want to be effective about supporting democracy and the rule-of-law.

      Comparative and Continental Philosophy Volume 9, 2017 – Issue 3
      The Phenomenology of Moral Normativity

    152. Dave Somerville says:


      “Sorry but I’m still not making sense….”

      Why do you say that CamB?

      Don’t be so hard on yourself. LoL

    153. CameronB Brodie says:

      Dave Somerville
      I can see why you might have nae mates if you think that was funny. Perhaps it might help you to develop some self-awareness and a depth of perception that you could drown a sparrow in. Only a guess though.

      Phenomenology of Illness

    154. Dave Somerville says:


      It was you who said you weren’t making any sense.

      Are you ok???

      Worry about you sometimes Cam.

      If you loss it, then who will do our deep thinking for us?

    155. Alf Baird says:

      Off topic, but may be of interest, my comment below on WGD’s deliberations about Gove etc wanting a vote in any future Scottish indy referendum.

      There is clearly a lot of confusion over a national voter franchise, in the article, comments, and also at Scottish Government level.

      In practice it matters less where a person is born; rather, nationality is normally determined by parental descent.

      The Scottish referendum franchise in 2014 based on residence (and not parental descent) was therefore highly irregular (if not corrupt) and is not reciprocated in any other country. In other countries a residence-based franchise is only ever used for minor local and municipal government elections – a residence franchise is never ever used for national elections or referendums.

      Scottish people resident in other countries are not permitted to vote in national elections or referendums there unless they hold national citizenship of that country. This confirms that the Scottish franchise is both irregular and is not reciprocal.

      The self-determination of ‘a people’ refers only to ‘a people’ as defined by specific aspects and accepted international norms such as: a common culture, heritage/history, language, ethnicity, sense of belonging, and common suffering. It does not mean those peoples from many other countries and holding to different national identities who happen to have an address in Scotland; most of the latter ‘peoples’ already benefit from having their own national independence/self-determination.

      What Scotland should do/have done is first identify who the ‘national’s of the country would be if the country were already an independent nation. And here the parental descent rule and norm would be decisive. Thus, if one or more of your parents are Scottish and you live in Scotland you get a national vote. Simple, clear, decisive, and the international standard.

      As the author James Kelman said, if you want to know your national identity look at who your relatives are!

      After independence is secured, residents in Scotland who come from other countries may then apply for Scottish citizenship if they wish, much as they would need to do in any other country. However people from other countries and therefore holding different national identities cannot be forced to take Scottish citizenship, and neither should they be invited to block Scottish citizenship/nationality for Scottish people by being given a national vote prematurely (ie without applying first for Scottish citizenship, which can only lawfully be done after independence).

      In summary, the Scottish franchise is a mess and primarily serves to inflate the ‘No’ vote.

    156. Anne Marie Docherty says:

      I was a member of the SNP for some years and left recently due to disgust at recent treatment of Joanna Cherry, actions of NE C etc. I am one of the first to insist we should not bow down and play the UK narrative. But the point of that narrative is to undermine us at every opportunity. Margaret Ferrier’s actions are incomprehensible no matter how you look at it.

      The general public are asked to pay attention and keep up to date with all the changes, often depending on where you happen to live. Is it too difficult and too complicated then to expect an MP to know what is the correct action.

      I know for sure if I feel symptoms and get a test I should not be getting on a 5 hour train journey. FFS are we suggesting she was “confused”. It is I insulting to anyone with a functioning brain to defend her. There is no narrative that makes sense that she got on a train knowing she was positive and thought that was okay.

      I cannot stand hypocrisy and I am struggling with how anyone can defend this. Those who say she is a sick woman, have you considered that she may have made someone else sick by her stupidity.

    157. CameronB Brodie says:

      OFFS, the twisted and perverted logic some folk apply here to justify their politics, is simply quite stunning. I was obviously trying to clarify my position is not intellectually or morally exclusionary, though my poor syntax was undermining my effort.

      Our understanding of cultural bias is pretty essential if we are to prevent arbitrary and dogmatic legal practice from undermining our potential to be healthy and happy.

      Ethnicities, First Published March 31, 2011
      The eidetic of belonging: Towards a phenomenological psychology of affect and ethno-national identity


      In this article I discuss the way affect has featured in discussions of identity, focusing on ethnic and national identities. While affect features in most discussions of ethnicity it has mostly been dismissed as a testament to the irrationality and dangerous qualities of the identity in question. Such discussions adopt a simplistic model of human psychology, usually based on a hydraulic model of the emotions.

      After considering some recent and pioneering work that foregrounds the role of affectivity in group formations, I proceed to outline the basis for a phenomenological psychology of affect and group identities incorporating insights from psychoanalysis and phenomenology. One cannot begin to discuss the proper role of identity in the public sphere without first considering the emotional dynamics that underlie such group formations.

      affect, emotion, ethnic sentiments, ethnicity, identity, nationalism, phenomenology, psychoanalysis

    158. Lizg says:

      Cameron B Brodie
      Just checking that you know Somerville is the clown of many names with a Liz g fixation, and yer only bouncing off him for yer stuff?
      Sometimes when we’re all busy with our own thing…I can take a while to see 🙂
      And I’d hope you’d caution me right back….

    159. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      That Humza Yousaf quote. WHOAH! That man is disturbing. Seems to like setting the cops on folk, or trying to do so through ill-thought-through legislation. None of his previous governmental posts were anything to do with legality/justice. His background for the post would seem to be dubious. Nice wee authoritarian streak building there. Matches the authoritarian streak in the party at the top in general, mind you. I never thought in my lifetime I would see this sort of vile swill in Scotland. Ferrier? Idiot. Ypu put people’s lives at risk, step down, see ya. The wording of the quote from Yousaf is interesting, though:

      “So angry & disappointed in Margaret, someone I consider a friend. However, being a friend or opponent in this regard is irrelevant.” Why mention ‘opponent’ in this context? Odd choice of words. He would probably say he was being ‘impartial,’ and I would say…AYE RIGHT.

      I saw Mhairi Black sneering at her ostensible colleague in The National (which becomes increasingly polarising and hateful by the day) too. I guess the concept of party solidarity is a 20th century one. Why did Black have to have her say on the matter in the paper? Who cares? What does her opinion matter? She just loves the attention. They all do. Creepy. And they snipe and gripe at WOS and its readers as being ‘divisive,’ even as they tear each other to shreds to try and show their moral and ethical ‘superiority.’ Oh the irony.

    160. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m pretty good at spotting clowns, even on-line, and try to only respond when I see a chance to shoehorn in some relevant science and ethics. As you do. Well I do anyway. 🙂

    161. Alf Baird says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 12.30

      That ethnicity and identity stuff seems the key to any ‘Yes’ decision, despite the fact some folks nowadays think its taboo, i.e. PC/woke. And hey, whitdaeyeken, culture and language form the basis of identity, with peoples in self-determination conflict typically being linguistically and culturally divided (ie Scots speakers Aye and Anglophones No). Phenomenology is the way to go, in my opinion. Cambridge Analytica also go big on the ’emotion’ vibe, which has firm linkages to (national) identity, and hence to culture/language. Your on fire!

    162. Effijy says:

      I’d take Margaret Ferrier before Boris the Clown,
      Grovelling Gove, Greasy Mogg, Pritti Demented Patel,
      Chris Grayling, Sir Right Wing Starmer, Jeremy Corbyn,
      God knows the latest Fib Dem prat et al.

    163. Mist001 says:

      @ Gfaetheblock

      “Mist001 doesn’t know what he is talking about re zoom. If the host has a premium account, then it is free for the attendees, it is a well respected and competent tech company that had a minor data breach that is irreverent for context that this is getting discussed here, there is loads of info on it in the internet”

      Since I made clear in my original post that I was saying off the top of my head, I never claimed it was precise but since you’ve taken issue with it, let’s have a look at Zooms sales page:

      “A host can have unlimited meetings.
      Each meeting supports up to 100 participants.”

      How many attendees are the SNP expecting for their ‘conference’? According to Zoom, they can only have a maximum of 100. It’s going to cost the SNP 46.50 euros for any more than that.

      500,000 private Zoom credentials were stolen. Now, it’s not on the scale of the Sony breach but for a new company, 500,000 is a bit more than a ‘minor’data breach.

      My own belief is that if you are a professional organisation, you would NOT use Zoom. Most people like the SNP use it because The Guardian promotes it and tells them it’s good. However, even a cursory Google search would make any serious organisation look elsewhere, because would you use this?? I wouldn’t.

    164. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alf Baird
      The RTPI trained me to de-colonise the fabric of British culture, largely through culturally conscious semiotic and somatic practices, and by resisting and undoing the effects of exclusionary and rascsit legal practice. Thats why I’m absatootly certain the SNP’s ‘progressive’ wing are far from WOKE, and have managed to get ‘our’ civil service to rejected “best practice” in gender matters, without sufficient legal authority to do so.

      So the SNP’s political practice is no longer coherent or compatible with the Common law or contemporary political theory, and lacks sufficient epistemic integrity to support effective political action. Hence, we’re getting it from both ends. ;(

      Toward a Cultural Phenomenology
      of Personal Identity

    165. Dogbiscuit says:

      It’s interesting the SNP failed to turn up in Parliament for the crucial vote on whether or not to extend covid Emergency Powers. Labour failed to turn up Lib Dem’s delivered a lesson on Democracy to SNP scheisters.

    166. CameronB Brodie says:

      If the law lacks a phenomenological concern, it is incapable of accommodating the quantum nature of reality, or respecting the Natural law and moral pluralism. That is exactly the stance Scots law is being forced to take, by both our parliaments. So Scots have no chance of ever enjoying the benefits of democracy, until we beat the cultural bias and neo-liberalism out of our government and judicial system.

      New Queries in Aesthetics and Metaphysics pp 99-106
      Phenomenology as a Theory of Culture

    167. Beaker says:

      @Mist001 says:
      4 October, 2020 at 1:17 am
      “However, even a cursory Google search would make any serious organisation look elsewhere, because would you use this?? I wouldn’t.”

      I can back you up on that. I know people at four major organisations in the Glasgow area. Not a single one would even consider using Zoom. Microsoft Teams is used because there are various additional security options that are available. I wouldn’t touch Zoom with a bargepole.

      The SNP are using Zoom probably because it is cheap. The SNP’s Digital Media Manager, Grant Costello, is probably had a hand in the choice. Strange position he holds, considering he has a Master Degree in Politics and International Relations, which he graduated with in 2015. So he has 5 years experience, the first 3 as a Digital Media Officer and the last 2 as the Digital Media Manager. Basically it looks like he is in charge of the social media sites for the SNP. Not a very technical role, and most definitely one without comprehensive IT security experience or skills. But his background practically guarantees his selection as the candidate to replace Linda Fabiani.

      I’ll put money on that if the SNP conference uses Zoom, someone will likely hack it. It’s happened elsewhere in the world. A lot of schools and colleges / universities refuse to use it.

      Might be interesting however, from a human biological perspective. A couple of recent Zoom hacks included *ahem* some light entertainment in the form of porn.

    168. Lizg says:

      Cameron B Brodie
      I thought as much… but just checking…. as I hope you would do.
      These fools do have their uses 🙂

    169. CameronB Brodie says:

      Right, that’s probably enough phenomenology for now, and hopefully enough to convince folk our government and judicial system are not looking out for either Scotland’s or the public’s well-being. They are supporting British nationalism rather the universal principles of legal doctrine and the international rule-of-law. Subsequently, Scots are being further separated from the benefits of democracy, in order to accommodate xenophobic English cultural narcissism. That’s bad. Mkay!

      Culture & Philosophy
      A Journal for Phenomenological Inquiry

    170. CameronB Brodie says:

      I might be a bit clumsy at times Liz but I’m not a total diddy. 😉

    171. Lizg says:

      I never said / or thought you were…. I’m just saying we all get so caught up in our contributions that we need/should be checkin, that we recognise the clowns and their support posters
      for what they are.
      And I’d hope you’d return the compliment…
      Actually… I don’t think I even need to ask
      But we must be seen to agree 🙂

    172. CameronB Brodie says:

      ….but I’m not a total diddy. Well not all the time anyway. Night, night. 🙂

      International Journal of Politics, Culture, and Society volume 33, pages 309–344 (2020)
      The Resonance of Resonance: Critical Theory as a Sociology of World-Relations?

    173. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’d never presume to tell you what to believe Liz, or how to behave. Unless I’m certain you’re heading up the wrong dreel, of course. And only if I could prove my opinion was worthy of consideration. I’m not trying to force a narrow set of beliefs, I’m trying to share insight into the science and technology of ethical government. It’s really up to yourself and anyone else what to make of things. or how to take matters forward in defending Scotland’s democracy from authoritarian legal practice.

      Art and Embodiment: Biological and Phenomenological Contributions to Understanding Beauty and the Aesthetic


      Increasing awareness of the crucial and complex role of the body in making and experiencing art has led to a diverse range of biological and phenomenological philosophies of art. The shared emphasis on the role of the body re-connects these contemporary theories of art to aesthetics’ pre-Kantian origin as a science of sense-perception (aesthesis) and feeling.

      Tracing some of the current positions in such diverse thinkers as Dissanayake, Langer, and Merleau-Ponty, this paper will examine their shared interest in art as a pre-reflective, non-discursive mode of knowing, symbolizing, and being-in-the-world.

      This paper argues that while some biologically based theories have drawn legitimate attention to the potential role of art in human evolution, their reductive tendencies need to be corrected and complemented by both a phenomenological and a ‘symbolic’ approach, which situates art in a web of culturally mediated affective encounters with the world in the context of a broader horizon that lends it its meaning.

      art, embodiment, biology, phenomenology, Baumgarten, Dissanayake, Langer, Merleau-Ponty–art-and-embodiment-biological-and-phenomenological?rgn=main;view=fulltext

    174. Dave Somerville says:


      Please don’t include me in your drunken rants.

      You appear on here in the middle of the night,,, probably full of your favourite Lanarkshire tipple (Buckfast),,,contribute nothing but grief, then disappear.

      We all know you’re a wee Sturgeonista, so stop contaminating this site with your shite.

      The Wee Gingerbread Man laps clowns like you up, so get back there and don’t annoy the true fighters of Scottish Independence.

    175. Breeks says:


      Absolutely no disrespect to those who look after these artefacts, but I can’t help feeling that anywhere else in the world, these stones would be displayed in a multi million pound, state of the art exhibition centre. I’d be more than happy to see it stay in Meigle, but the presence of these stones and their historic context seems desperately understated.

      They are precious to Scotland beyond measure. What other nation in the world would house them in this way? Let me repeat, I mean no disrespect to the Meigle Stone Museum.

      I kinda feel the same way about the Govan stones too, although the Govan Old Parish Church also does a fine job.

      Scotland celebrates it’s tourism, but our resources are so very much underdeveloped and understated. Ok, sometimes there’s a lot to be said for humble simplicity and understatement, but not, in my opinion, when you’re dealing with what should be national treasures and global icons.

    176. Gfaetheblock says:


      Zoom large meeting allows 1000 interactive users paid for by host , and I believe that you can stream non interactive content.

      Zoombombing is generally caused by user error.

      My employer and many others use it, it passes stringent technology governance , most of the issues that had caused problems have been addressed, and as it is a public meeting, ‘hacking’ is hardly an issue.

    177. PacMan says:

      John H. says: 3 October, 2020 at 5:17 pm

      Sorry if this has been posted before. A lady posted it on WGD.I don’t imagine she’ll be very popular there because of the truths in it. A podcast by barrheadboy with Dot Jessiman.

      Everybody needs to listen to this from somebody is in actually in the higher echelons of the SNP rather than all this conspiracy nonsense spouted on here.

      The impression I get is this woke nonsense isn’t being driven by Nicola Sturgeon but by the NEC. A telling quote was said that one NEC member stated that equality was more important than independence.

    178. PacMan says:

      @ Gfaetheblock re. Zoom

      A lot of problems reporting in the past about Zoom was due to hosts not putting passwords on meetings.

      Of course not all zoom problems are caused by technical issues:

    179. Ronald Fraser says:

      Douglas Ross on Sophie Ridge spoke of the “Separatists” in Scotland.

      That horrible word is usually used by Yoons when they are losing the argument.

      Ross knows that that word is an insulting word and shouldn’t be used to describe his fellow Scots, but he goes ahead and uses it anyway.

      Those dirty demeaning tactics only make us fight all the harder for our Independence.

    180. LeggyPeggy says:

      Re the Snp conference , The Snp are NOT using Zoom for the online conference .

    181. Bailey says:

      Alf Baird at 12:15 am – You’re right the residence based Scottish referendum franchise will just produce another No vote. Other countries wouldn’t dream of using such a wide-open franchise for a constitutional vote and the UN upholds the right of the indigenous to self determination. There is no reciprocal right of non-indigenous persons thwarting that right and that is what happened in 2014. I see you posted on the WDG site. Paul Kavanagh made it clear in a post further down from yours that he didn’t like your views but couldn’t make an argument aga

    182. Andy Ellis says:


      Tories gonna Tory. Scots unionists are on a shoogly peg, and they know it. Their core support (excluding “soft” No voters and those horrified with brexit, BoJo, the shambolic Covid response etc) probably doesn’t extend past 25% of the Scots electorate these days.

      The biggest danger to achieving independence in the short to medium term, however much Sturgeonistas hate to hear it, is the current SNP leadership. It is of course a truism that only the SNP has the support and resources to act as the engine of the independence movement.

      That signifies littel however: it doesn’t matter how powerful the engine is if the captain and executive officers are happy to pootle around the harbour.

    183. Bailey says:

      Alf Baird at 12:15 am – You’re right the residence based Scottish referendum franchise will just produce another No vote. Other countries wouldn’t dream of using such a wide-open franchise for a constitutional vote and the UN upholds the right of the indigenous to self determination. There is no reciprocal right of non-indigenous persons thwarting that right and that is what happened in 2014. I see you posted on the WDG site. Paul Kavanagh made it clear in a post further down from yours that he didn’t like your views but couldn’t make an argument against as you are factually and legally correct.

      The only way out now as far as I see it is the UN and ICJ route. We may need the UN to rule on a franchise for a ratifying referendum after the Treaty has been rescinded and it certainly won’t be the current wide open one, which is designed to fail.

    184. PacMan says:

      re: separatists

      There’s was a Jakey pub in Glasgow’s Eglington Street called The Southern Bar which had a sign at the door saying ‘No Separatists allowed’. It’s been boarded up for a few years.

      Says it all about the use of such language by politicians, appealing to the dregs of society.

    185. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Bailey

      There’s a very simple argument against a restricted franchise: civic nationalism forbids it. Either we’re a civic nationalist movement or we aren’t. I lived in England in 2014, so didn’t get a vote. I didn’t expect one, and argued fiercely against those in the diaspora saying Scots born folk should be given a say.

      Quite apart from the organisational and cost implications (you’re seriously suggesting we trace and register every potential eligibile Scot around the world? All of those born here? How about their voting age children….wouldn’t they also be entitled? Or their grandchildren?) it’s just plain wrong.

      If we can’t persuade Scots – ALL Scots, old and new – that independence is a good idea, we simply don’t deserve it.

      In the event the Yes movement were unwise enough to adopt such “blood and soil” qualifications it would lose the support of many people. I would never vote for a party or movement advocating a restricted franchise.

    186. Stuart MacKay says:

      Alf Baird @12:21am

      re: Who gets to vote.

      Eloquently put. Bravo. You need to make sure you repeat that comment here a few more times.

      This is going to be a “thistle” that needs to be grabbed (not just grasped) sooner rather than later. The real issue is the uncertainty that comes with it. Clearly spelling out who can vote and what options there are post-independence is going to be really important. Residency, citizenship, access to services, property rights and all kinds of legal stuff should be thought through and presented clearly and unambiguously. If you just rely on a default position of who’s here at the time of the vote then you may as well give out ballot papers with “No” pencilled in by default.

      The property market in Caithness, etc. is red hot right now with fowk fae doon sooth buying up houses to escape COVID. You can assume that these are No voters by default. Sure the numbers are low but across the country that’s not the case. However if you set out the case for independence and clearly state these people’s rights you take all the uncertainty out of the equation. Who knows, given the mess that Brexit is going make, then having residency or even dual citizenship could be the best of both worlds for them.

      Anyways, this needs to be thought through. It’s easy to create a position that’s positive and a net benefit for everyone. This cannot be avoided. All the talk about equality and inclusiveness is just bullshit. If you cannot set out a position that’s beneficial to Scot’s and others but not detrimental to the former then you don’t deserve to be running a country.

    187. Graeme says:

      “The impression I get is this woke nonsense isn’t being driven by Nicola Sturgeon but by the NEC. A telling quote was said that one NEC member stated that equality was more important than independence.”

      Another telling quote was from one of the alphabet conspirators at the Alex Salmond trial who said she was “soft on independence” that same woman wanted to stand for an Aberdeenshire seat, how many other SNP MP’s/MSP’s are soft on independence, how do we know that same woman isn’t standing this time ?, if she is how would we know ?, some of us could be voting for that woman next year, how do we feel about that ?, in my opinion (and I know this is controversial) but I don’t think these woman should have been allowed to remain anonymous especially when we know at least one of them perjured herself in court we need to muck out all that shit in the party and adopt much stricter vetting processes at every level in SNP

    188. Andy Ellis says:

      @Stuart MacKay & Alf

      Why should folk born in Scotland, but who have never lived here, get to decide the future of 5.5 million Scots who DO live here? There are estimated to be 800,000 who would qualify in the rest of the UK and possibly 200,000 in the rest of the world.

      The figures are from a 2014 article:

      My daughter was born in Aberdeen, but lived in England from the age of 8 months. Should she and others like her be entitled to decide what happens in Scotland? She may well opt for a Scottish passport if we gain our independence, but many others wouldn’t do so.

      Even if you could contrive to somehow enfranchise the 1 million eligible Scots in the diaspora, I’m not sure most of them can be counted on to support independence. The the 25 years I lived in England, pro-independence Scots like me were very much the minority.

      Be careful what you wish for: attempting to pauchle the result may not have the outcome you’re hoping for!

    189. Bailey says:

      Andy Ellis, the world norm is that only those BORN AND RESIDENT IN THE TERRITORY are included in the franchise for a constitutional matter. How can it be “plain wrong” if it is the recognised norm. You are ignoring the fact that the UN EXPECTS a constitutional vote to be restricted to protect the rights of the indigenous population. You are making up the part about tracing everyone in the world. I didn’t say that, that is just in your mind. In case it’s escaped your attention, Westminster is pushing for Scots based in England to get the vote, which would be another breach of international norms. Other countries use a restricted franchise for constitutional matters and it would be VERY EASY to have a franchise based on line of parental descent. Everyone else does it. What cost implications? You are making that up. In other EU countries a line of parental descent franchise is used and nothing is said about cost. The civil service could just make up another database. I specifically said that we could have the UN determine a franchise for a post-independence referendum after having the treaty rescinded. The wide open 2014 franchise was a breach of UN protocol.
      As the 74% No vote by English incomers showed in 2014 they are viscerally opposed to Scottish independence. Anyone living in rural Scotland knows that. They are uncompromising and will never vote Yes. You can forget the civic nationalism and the Yes movement. We will never be “granted” another referendum and Nicola has backed us into a corner by “asking”. The only way out is the UN and ICJ route and, thereafter, a ratifying referendum, the franchise of which can be determined by the UN, and will almost certainly be restricted as is the norm. The large English vote which kept us in the union in 2014 was a breach of international law. Every single one of your points (some of which are made up) can be easily demolished.

    190. Andy Ellis says:


      Then we might as well all give up now: yours is the dialogue of despair. Many including me would oppose your plans. The overwhelming majority of those who would be enfranchised by your blood and soil plan will be unionists: trust me, I spend 25 years in England and the overwhelming majority of diaspora Scots are staunch unionists.

      The scheme you envisage is a fantasy: neither the movement nor the Scottish Government will support it. It’s a recipe for killing independence stone dead.

    191. Bailey says:

      Andy Ellis at 9.32 – Why are you so obsessed with Scots living abroad getting to vote. No-one is suggesting that. What we are suggesting is that those born and resident in Scotland are included in the franchise. We can’t win another referendum under the current franchise what with the level of interference from the English print and broadcast media, suspect postal voting and holiday home owners illegally voting. We will never win a referendum and the only way out is the ICJ and UN route. I am talking about a ratification referendum after that which will will have to have a restricted franchise. You can forget the “new Scots” A Lot of English incomers see us as serfs and certainly don’t see themselves as Scots.

    192. Ronald Fraser says:

      Andy Ellis

      Totally agree, Sturgeon is by far the major stumbling block to Scottish Independence.

      Far more than any Unionist who describes us as “Separatists”.

    193. Stuart MacKay says:

      Andy Ellis

      I have no position on people of Scots descent living abroad having a vote. If I had to give an opinion then I’d say it’s not a good idea. I live in Portugal and I’d love a vote but it’s not my position to tell people who stayed what they should do when I chose to leave.

      The elephant in the room on the who gets to vote issue are the people from England who sold their one bedroom flat in London and are living rather well in a large house in a beautiful part of the country. My position is that these are No voters by default but it’s easy to persuade them to become Yes voters however it need some careful thought. This issue cannot be avoided and it must be brought out into the open. With a little imagination, some creativity and probably some spending to grease the wheels they can be persuaded that an independent Scotland is in their own best interest.

      Let me give a shout out to Thrumster, about 3 miles south of Wick. The people from England and elsewhere with kids at the primary school there love it. Good rural school, village atmosphere, reasonable neighbours, lots of open space for kids to run around. For people from over-populated England this place is absolute joy. That’s what an independent Scotland can sell: safety, security, good services, clear air, places to go, freedom. Take the uncertainty out of the equation make it clear there’s the promise of a good future and they’ll be queuing up to say Yes. Avoid the issue, let it degrade into base nationalism either within the Yes movement but more likely from the Unionists and No is going to be what you get.

    194. Ottomanboi says:

      All online apps data farm. None is secure. Some are more sophisticated in that capability than others. Remember that simple fact when uploading ‘sensitive’ information. The requirement to enable cookies is part of the farming ie data gathering process.
      America based sites are particularly aggressive in that regard. There is more than hearsay evidence that Google has supplied user data to the US security services.
      If America then the UK and certainly the PRC. Whether the SNP employ China origin Zoom or another platform, all are gathering information, for good or ill.
      The cultural conditioning to physical distancing is the most sinister aspect of the developing anti-Covid ‘strategy’. The atomization of social relationships in effect their ‘desocializing’ renders the individual more susceptible to snooping by the established political power.
      The speed with which cyberism, aided by officialdom, has depersonalized the real world is something we ought to be very concerned about.
      This new normal is controlling and existentially a dysfunction in our basic human need for direct and physical contact. Without that physicality we may well cease to be truly human, mere slave appendages of a device. A far worse condition than 10 days of bad flu.
      The next stage in ‘disease’ tracking could be personalized Quick Response Codes, already operative in the PRC to deal with socio-political and cultural dissidence. An SNP QR perhaps…no alt.thinking allowed, stay safe toe the party line?

    195. Bob Mack says:

      Hearing Andrew Marr asks Johnson if the Scottish people vote SNP in May will you consider referendum.

      Flat No It was once in a generation.

      I think he means it folks.!!

    196. Republicofscotland says:

      Yes I have agree with those who’ve said that Sturgeon and her clique, including her husband Peter Murrell, are a greater threat to Scottish independence than any outside force. Whether it be from Westminster or the British nationalist opposition parties at Holyrood posing as concerned political parties for Scotland’s welfare.

      The latter we can beat at their own game, however removing the obstacles to independence within the SNP, the party that’s most likely to deliver Scottish independence is at present a bit trickier.

      We need Sturgeon and Murrell, to be exposed for their deceitful machinations, and for those in the party that actually want independence to come to the fore. This is indeed a critical time for Scotland’s future, on the one hand we have Johnson and the Tories with their Internal Market bill, which will negate Holyrood’s ability to govern properly, and on the other hand we have the real possibility of becoming independent, if we could only put in place a leader of the SNP who has the determination and grit to see it through.

    197. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Can we please be clear – IF and that is a huge IF, Westminster ever agrees to a “gold standard” referendum, via a Section 30 order, you can bet your life they will do everything they can to apuchle it.

      If they think having Anglo-Scots and the wider Caledonian Diaspora given a vote which might swing the result to NO, they will do this.

      If they think offering a second option, probably a cobbled-together Federal option, they will put that in.

      In whatever manner they can possibly pauchle the referendum to get the result they want – Scotland continuing to be tied-in to this Union, they will do this.

      Until backed into a corner and forced to do this, and, for as long as the Tories have a workable Westminster majority – this route to Independence is closed to us.

      Then, if they ever have to concede a referendum, the scenario as I outlined above wil apply.

      The only way they will voluntarily let us go, is the day after the last barrel of oil comes ashore from Scottish waters,a nd, somehow, they discover they do not need our other many riches.

      Until that day, they will never voluntarily give up their last colony.

    198. Ronald Fraser says:

      The Ulsterisation of Scotland continues.

      Dr Nicola Steedman is deputy Chief Medical Officer for Scotland and she is on our telly doing adverts about Covid19 and also stands beside Sturgeon at her daily briefing.

      And going by her background you won’t be seeing her front and centre of an Independence Rally any time soon.

      “Originally from Belfast, Nicola studied in England completing her pre-clinical training at Cambridge University and her clinical training at Oxford University, training as a general acute physician specialising in Genitourinary and HIV Medicine”

      Fuckin hell, could the Scottish government not have found one Scot to fill this vacancy when it appeared???

      Sturgeon just loves being surrounded by nodding dog Unionists.

    199. Achnababan says:

      Stuart Mackay

      Massive gap in your argument – why would the London incomers vote YES because they like the community and local countryside of Thrumster?

      At the moment they are reveling in the best of both worlds – great house, lots of wealth and British – why would be ever vote Yes to independence? They are more likely to vote to end the Scottish Parliament do they could have lower taxes.

      And what happens to the local people on low incomes who can no longer afford to buy a house because of immigration by the nice middle classes seeking the good life and lots of fun places (depopulated places) to go on a cycle run?

    200. Republicofscotland says:

      Socrates MacSporran

      Re the S30, if Johnson were to agree to it, you can be sure it would so heavily laden with caveats, that it would be completely unworkable for the Scottish government.

    201. Dan says:

      @ Bob Mack

      Hmm, looks like that auld referendum mandate farming carrot the SNP dangle is getting michty withered and mouldy if BoJo ain’t gonna fire up the xerox and print oot a Section 30.

    202. Achnababan says:

      Spot on Socrates!

      With Alex we were on the front foot taking it to the Tories

      With Nicola we are on the back foot and going backwards to join the Tories!

      Nicola and the SNP cave in to everything so why would they stand up to Westminster trying to pauchle the referendum

    203. Andy Ellis says:


      Because that will be the quid pro quo, and what the British nationalists want. They ARE proposing it: I argued strongly against it in 2012-14 when I still lived in England.

      If we can’t win another referendum using the current franchise, then Scotland doesn’t deserve independence, and the civic nationalist project has failed. You’re advocating the dis-enfranchisement of non-Scots born residents (including my pro-indy English wife and many others like her).

      It’s the very essence of blood and soil nationalism, and every bit as toxic in its own way as the British nationalism you purport to detest.

      Happily most pro-independence Scots will have none of it. Your plan is a non starter.

    204. Andy Ellis says:

      @Achnababan & Stuart MacKay

      I imagine that numerically the New Scots of Thrumster are a drop in the ocean in comparison with folk from the rest of the UK who have moved to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee for work. I suspect the majority would/will still support the union, but a significant number support independence too.

      No doubt some will stay after indy, even if they retain their UK passports if that is where their jobs are, where their kids are at school, where they feel “at home”.

      The task of a post indy government is to ensure there IS enough affordable housing in rural areas, that the infrastructure is improved, that there is more investment and greater job opportunities. All of these are tasks for after independence is gained; the potential benefits of those ought to be a significant sales pitch in trying to convert No voters to Yes.

    205. Alf Baird says:

      @ Bailey and Stuart MacKay, you both make valid points, thanks.

      @ Andy Ellis, You are aware that the Scottish national independence referendum franchise is the same as that used for local government elections, are you? Surely, given your knowledge of ‘International Relations’, you must also be conscious of the fact that the national independence and hence liberation of the Scottish people and their culture is of an inordinately different (i.e. much, much, much higher) national and indeed international level than a local council election? Any comment on the irregularity and non-reciprocity of the (abnormal) Scottish residence-based franchise would also be appreciated.

    206. LeggyPeggy says:

      PacMan @ 8.44 am ,
      I haven’t had a chance to listen to Barrhead Boy yet but I’m sorry but Nicola Sturgeon is the leader of the party and all the decisions made by the party and the NEC stop at her door and no one else’s .

      She was quick enough to publicly call for Margaret Ferrier to resign but not a word for Peter Murrell and others to even be suspended about the what’s app messages which were ( allegedly ) sent by him to other people within the party while they were conspiring to send Alex Salmond to jail for the rest of his life .

      I’m sorry but that’s UNFORGIVABLE to any decent person .

      When the rot starts at the top of any organisation whether it’s a political party or a business they have to go and then honest and decent people can come forward and start to repair the damage that’s already been done in the past and hopefully they can bring the Snp back to what it should be doing which is to get Scotland our Independence .

      Re the NEC from Rev Stuart Campbell ,

    207. Robert Graham says:

      Oh a lot of opinions about who can be entitled to vote in a referendum,if it happens.
      As far as I know the matter has been settled and won’t be changed.

      Very Simple and currently adopted the world over , in this case Scotland

      Born in and resident in Scotland you get a vote

      Everyone else while very welcome sits this particular one out,

      Any other contrived variant goes against accepted normal practices used to determine who is allowed to determine the future of any country , it is in place to protect the interests of the indigenous people so a influx of foreigners does not overwhelm the people who are indigenous to that country

      The one and only reason for this being questioned is because Unionists are Shit Scared of the outcome , any and every weasel word to install doubt and confusion is being attempted.

      Because they a bricking it big time ,we know it and they know we know it , and they ain’t fn happy

    208. Rm says:

      Just listened to the interview with Dot Jessiman, I’m not an SNP member but even though, for the wider independence movement something’s far wrong, nobody seems to be able to do anything about it, we’re in big trouble if what she says comes to fruition.

    209. Colin Alexander says:

      “On Aug. 20, 1991, an attempted coup by Communist hardliners in Moscow precipitated a succession of events in Estonia that, on the same day, led to a resolution of the Supreme Soviet of the Estonian SSR to declare the country’s independence from the collapsing Soviet Union. Since then, Estonia has celebrated its regained independence on this date every year…

      “That night, at just after 11pm, 69 members of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Estonia voted in favor of the Resolution on the National Independence of Estonia. The decision was announced to the public the following day. Latvia also declared independence the same day”.


      ?312: Regarding Estonia’s national independence

      Based on the continuity of the Republic of Estonia as a subject of international law, drawing upon the Estonian population’s declaration of intent clearly expressed in the March 3, 1991 referendum to restore the Republic of Estonia’s national independence, given the Supreme Soviet of the Estonian SSR’s March 30, 1990 decision regarding “The Estonian national status” and the Supreme Soviet of the Estonian SSR’s declaration regarding “The Cooperation of the Supreme Soviet of the Estonian SSR and the Congress of Estonia,” taking into account that the coup which has taken place in the Soviet Union poses a serious threat to the democratic processes taking place in Estonia and has rendered impossible the restoration of the national independence of the Republic of Estonia by means of bilateral negotiations with the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of the Republic of Estonia has decided:

      1. To confirm the Republic of Estonia’s national independence and seek the restoration of the Republic of Estonia’s diplomatic relations.

      2. To establish for the development and submission to referendum of the Estonian Constitution the Constitutional Assembly, the composition of which will be shaped by delegation from the Republic of Estonia’s highest legislative organ of state power, the Supreme Council of the Republic of Estonia, and the representative body of the Estonian citizenry, the Congress of Estonia.

      3. To hold parliamentary elections according to the new Constitution of the Republic of Estonia in the year 1992.

      The resolution was signed on Aug. 20, 1991 by the chairman of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Estonia, Arnold Rüütel. Rüütel would later go on to become Estonia’s second president after it regained its independence”.

    210. Breeks says:

      Ronald Fraser says:
      4 October, 2020 at 9:58 am
      Andy Ellis

      Totally agree, Sturgeon is by far the major stumbling block to Scottish Independence.

      Far more than any Unionist who describes us as “Separatists”.

      I constructively disagree.

      Sturgeon is a complete dead loss, no argument there, but the abandonment of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty and all the ramifications which stem from that, is by far a much bigger threat to Scotland’s future Independence.

      Yes, we need rid of Sturgeon, but we also need a new Scottish Government which respects the Constitution of the Nation and popular sovereignty of the people, not merely the constitution (small ‘c’) of Holyrood, a devolved assembly that sits beneath Westminster.

      Only time will tell whether Sturgeon’s Brexit capitulation and the unconstitutional precedents she endorsed will come back to haunt Scotland as we try to reassert our sovereign ascendency.

    211. Andy Ellis says:

      @Alf Baird

      Yes, I’m quite aware thanks and happy with the franchise as it is. If civic nationalism means anything, it is that ALL of the people living in Scotland get to have a say in whether we become independent. A system which deprives long term residents of their right to vote on the basis that they weren’t born here isn’t supportable.

      Our culture and liberation would be forever tainted by excluding those who have paid us the compliment of coming to live among us from participation. This isn’t Estonia, or Latvia or Lithuania. In the very unlikely event your plans came to fruition, natural justice would dictate that those born in Scotland, but living elsewhere should also be afforded a vote, since they would be eligible for citizenship. That’s 800,000 in the rest of the UK alone. Good luck with organising that and persuading the (overwhelmingly unionist) diaspora that they should vote for independence.

      If the better nation aspired to by you and others involves disenfranchising New Scots, count me out.

    212. Breeks says:

      Just to add, it is currently impossible to pursue international recognition of Scottish constitutional sovereignty while our own sodding Scottish Government refuses to.

    213. holymacmoses says:

      I agree LeggyPeggy

      AND it seems reasonable to assume that the Murrells are getting a great deal of assistance from the establishment and the Union, given the lack of MSM coverage to what is going on here. ‘Bought and sold’ comes to mind:-)

    214. Andy Ellis says:

      @ Breeks

      Indeed! I love the idea being advanced by the blood and soil types that the current wet-nats, who think the only route to independence is asking for Westminster’s permission, are suddenly going to grow a pair and demand the exclusion of non-native born Scots from the franchise.

      Pure fantasy.

    215. PacMan says:

      Rm says: 4 October, 2020 at 10:47 am

      Just listened to the interview with Dot Jessiman, I’m not an SNP member but even though, for the wider independence movement something’s far wrong, nobody seems to be able to do anything about it, we’re in big trouble if what she says comes to fruition.

      A few posts have been directed to me about my OP regarding the interview. I want to reply to your post directly and hopefully will address issues other posters raised.

      The SNP went from essentially a protest party to the party of government and the de facto establishment of Scotland. In doing that, change was required and it happened. From the interview and other sources, it does look the SNP has now morphed into a Scottish version of New Labour.

      Simply put, the SNP was founded to change Scotland but in it’s attempt to do so, Scotland has changed the SNP. It is fair to say that in it’s current form, it is a devolutionist party and is happy for that to continue.

      In a sense, that isn’t a bad thing as a devolutionist party in power is better than a unionist one. However, as long with the Westminster power grab and the British Civil Service HQ in Edinburgh, Holyrood needs to move forward in getting more powers in safeguarding it’s own existence. This is even more evident if it moving in a different direction of Westminster because it will be seen as a threat to Westminster’s authority.

      Simply staying still which is the policy of the current SNP administration isn’t the answer.

      Until the SNP can sort it’s self out or at least regain it’s sense of self-preservation then alternative parties needs to be set up to put the case forward for self-determination. The first step is list only seats and maybe medium to long term, challenge the SNP is constituency seats where it is certain they can win.

      In doing so, pressure can be put on the SNP to get it’s act together from the outside.

      Of course, this argument is only valid if the Scottish Parliament remains relevant in post-Brexit Scotland. It may seem bleak at the moment that the Holyrood will be neutered but the Tories have never been good at efficient administration or have the interests of Scotland at it’s heart so their power grab may become counter-productive and actually create more support for independence.

      At the moment, let’s keep positive and wait and see.

    216. Stuart MacKay says:


      You’re right that the status quo works just as well for these people right now. However the issue needs to be thought through and it needs to be out in the open. If not then whoever has an agenda will take control and set it. Blood and soil nationalism should be the goto tool for unionists as it creates fear and division. What I am saying is that there’s no reason that a little bit of imagination cannot come up with a scenario that is better and works to the benefit of all.

      It’s more important to be seen to be trying and doubly important to be seen to be trying to give potential No voters a reason to vote Yes. You’re never going to persuade the die-hard colonist mentality but there’s a lot of ground between here and there, where the prospect of a better future for people settled in Scotland could be very persuasive.

    217. Norway,considered the most democratic country in the world,limits to citizens only for voting in national elections,

      to become a citizen in Norway,(outwith being born there)

      ` you must have lived in Norway for a total of seven of the past ten years. In addition, you must have held valid residence permits (such as a work permit) that cover that period of time.`

    218. Dan says:

      Andy Ellis says: at 10:53 am

      A system which deprives long term residents of their right to vote on the basis that they weren’t born here isn’t supportable.

      Which highlights the aspect on the eligibility of short term residents to have a say.
      I’m surrounded by an increasing multitude of holiday homes and incomers to the local area which have effectively cleared the young indigenous folk out because of the lack of jobs and high property prices.
      With local knowledge of the community I know who lives here full time and who doesn’t.
      If it is a permanent residence then the info on the likes of passport, driving license, vehicle V5 document, and declarations to insurance companies, etc should also be disclosed as at that address.

      It’s interesting to see the canvas sheets filtered for each type of election which does show the odd irregularity.
      Proper “surveillance” of voter database as and when it is updated would highlight changes which could be used to kerb or catch voter fraud.

    219. Stuart MacKay says:

      Andy Ellis,

      Yes. It’s the sales pitch that’s important.

      Obviously the ability to do anything in advance is limited to non-existent however the future must be mapped out. That’s the only chance of persuading the hesitant.

      The other reason this issue must be met head-on and the agenda set on our terms is that post-independence if there is a sizeable block that voted against it then you still need to get them onboard with the whole idea. Otherwise it will be used as a stick to beat the government whatever colour it is. There will be an immense amount of hard work post independence and having a faction attempting to derail it, perhaps, to reverse the decision, is best avoided.

    220. Andy Ellis says:


      I think the problem is (which kind of flows out of Pac Man’s contribution at 11.09am) the movement has put all its eggs in one basket, that of the SNP and achieving independence first, then dealing with *everything else* afterwards. That’s an acceptable strategy where there is a realistic prospect of achieving indy in one great leap forward.

      That strategy has however allowed the SNP in particular to remain “fat, dumb and happy” with the current devolutionary settlement, and airily dismiss any challenges to be more radical now, and to start the process of state building and introducing institutions and processes to improve the lives of Scots here and now on the ground, not in the sunny uplands of post indy Scotland at some indefinable future point.

      With the benefit of hindsight, the movement as a whole, and the SNP in particular, ought to have been ensuring much wider and more far reaching devolution. We should already be in the same situation as the Faroe Island for example: control of virtually everything apart from foreign policy and defence, our own representation on international bodies. Why hasn’t the movement pushed for distinctively Scottish solutions? All VAT and taxes collected in Scotland stay in Scotland, with an annual subvention given to Westminster for “union” services.

      There should be parallel Scottish institutions for virtually every area: based in Scotland, responsible to Holyrood not Westminster. THAT would be the way to ensure we could have a fair franchise, that we could present Scots with “real” economic data about taxes raised and expenditures made in Scotland, and what was spend for us by Westminster.

      If we want to be considered a true nation, we need to start acting like we already are one. We can’t and should obsess about the future Better Nation, we should be starting to build it now.

    221. Ottomanboi says:

      Boris Johnson during an interview let slip that people ought to use their discretion in dealing with Covid. Exactly the concept which citizens of the British state are currently required to suspend, by government diktat.

    222. MaggieC says:

      I’ve just seen this on Dani Garvelli’s twitter ,

      “ This is my last @ scotonsunday column After more than 20 years – or approx 1m words – I have decided to take a break from weekly opinion writing. “

      And headline on her column “ Battle -scarred veteran of the Culture War salutes you — Dani Garvelli bows out “ .

    223. Bailey says:

      Andy Ellis at 9.50 am. I don’t know whether you’re deliberately misrepresenting what I am saying but I specifically said the normal franchise for a constitutional vote world-wide BORN AND RESIDENT IN THE TERRITORY WISHING TO “SECEDE”. I specifically said that no Scots currently living in England would be enfranchised. Your post is nonsense. How can it be against natural law when every other country does it. What I am saying is that whoever decided the 2014 franchise threw the country away. No other country allows people from the country next door to vote in an referendum on the constitution. If we had taken the route I am advocating in 2014 we would have won. The UN takes a dim view of what happened here in 2014 because it was a breach of international law, so the law is the opposite of what you are saying.

      You are saying that the Scottish Government and “movement” would oppose it. If they do, they are opposing normal international law. The Scottish Government aren’t on a path to a referendum. There isn’t going to be one. The “movement” is a damp squib. The only way out is the international courts and then a ratification referendum UNDER UN FRANCHISE RULES. You can oppose that if you like.

    224. Liz says:

      @leggypeggy have you found that memo regarding GE candidates not signing the women’s pledge?
      Lots of folk are astonished.

    225. Alec Lomax says:

      Andy Ellis; Ref vote based on ethnicity? Didn’t they use to have that sort of thing in South Africa?

    226. Hatuey says:

      On the franchise, why couldn’t citizenship be defined as those born here and resident here?

      Not that any of us will have any say. And if it’s left to Nicola and the gang, she’ll sign whatever they put in front of her.

    227. mike cassidy says:

      Apparently Johnson didn’t say ‘no’

      He said ‘Now is not the time.’

    228. Andy Ellis says:


      You’re living in cloud cuckoo land. This isn’t every other country. The franchise is already established. It may not be perfect, but it is understood and has wide acceptance in the community and (most importantly) from the broader Yes movement. You and those who want to change it have no real argument.

      For your plan to work, you’d have to take the movement along with you and enact legislation to exclude those who could vote in 2014 from future votes. It simply won’t happen. I and many others won’t vote for it. I’d actively campaign against it.

      I doubt your assertion about the UN very much, and I’m betting you have zero evidence to back it up. The UN doesn’t regard Scotland (or Catalonia or Quebec for similar reasons) as analogous to e.g. the Baltic States post break up of the USSR. In that case there WERE legitimate reasons given their history, the mass deportations when they were annexed by the USSR in 1940 and after WW2 ended and mass implantation and settlement of ethnic Russians & other Soviet nationalities thereafter in an attempt to swamp the ethnic Balts, to restrict franchises to ethnic Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians.

      We are decidedly NOT in that situation. It’s similar to the debate yesterday about the misappropriation of the colonisation narrative.

      If you’re waiting for the international courts, UN, EU or anyone else to be the deus ex machina dropping independence in our laps by legal means, when we lack the balls to deliver it by political means, you’re in for a very long wait.

    229. Derek Rogers says:

      @Andy Ellis at 11.33am

      Couldn’t agree more – it’s probably the only secure way – will reblog it on my blog. However, we need a party to put it in its manifesto, and we’re a long, long way from that. Would Rev Stu consider doing a well-thought-through post laying out that route?

    230. Colin Alexander says:

      “Based on the continuity of the Republic of Estonia as a subject of international law”,

      “drawing upon the Estonian population’s declaration of intent clearly expressed in the March 3, 1991 referendum”.

      It also seems ethnic Russians WERE also allowed to vote in the advisory referendum.

      From wiki: “Voters were asked: “Do you want the restoration of the national independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Estonia?” ”

      True, Scotland is not Estonia. It’s also true, the SNP and other so-called pro-indy politicians are nothing like the Estonian pro-independence politicians.

      The Estonian politicians were pro-active in achieving independence. Willing to risk death for Estonia’s freedom. Whereas, pro-indy politicians here wouldn’t risk losing an MSP or MP seat to restore Scotland’s national sovereignty.

    231. LeggyPeggy says:

      Pac-Man @ 11.09 am

      Re my post @ 10.42 am , Please accept my apologies as my post wasn’t about your personal opinion of Barrhead Boy’s interview .

      I think we all feel the same just now that the biggest block to our Independence is the ones within the Snp who seem to be determined to split the YES movement as not all within the YES movement are Snp supporters and they are happy to sit back and watch the YES movement arguing amongst ourselves . The Snp don’t seem to realise that they are causing the splits because they are not pushing for our Independence and it will come back on them big time when it happens .

      How much of it’s do with the fact that they are happy to sit back and keep claiming their salaries and expenses while they are still sitting as MPs and Msps .

    232. CameronB Brodie says:

      I see a certain individual is still determined to claim intellectual authority, without providing any evidence to support their unhelpful narrative of insurrection and FUD.


      It’s quite simple peep, our government and judicial system are dysfunctional as a result of standing under Westminster, and are under the direction of those who appear hostile towards the Common law and democracy. So we do not currently have an administration capable of defending Scotland’s cultural identity from expansionist and authoritarian English nationalism.

      Scotland’s constitutional identity is defensible, but not by the clowns currently running the show for us, as they aim to destroy the potential for Scots law to be universal and impartial in outlook and application. This would enable Scots law to remain compatible with Brexitaian constitutional law, though not with rational and coherent legal reason. Which is clearly cultural vandalism by our very own Tory friendly SNP. Who are becoming increasing fascistic in nature as they clearly don’t understand the principles of justice or democracy.

      Conservation: Cultures and Connections, HS | 2013
      New Values of Cultural Heritage and the Need for a New Paradigm Regarding its Care

      The concept of cultural heritage values is a living idea. Currently, “cultural heritage” is a broader term, which includes natural and man-made legacy. Conservation and diverse museum activities have a fundamental practical side, which must be realised in conjunction with theoretical constructs.

      The complex care of cultural heritage in the field of visual arts involves a set of new values, stories, ideas, traditions, symbols, attitudes, and accomplishments. The new role of the conservator-restorer acting as an “advocate” of the intrinsic values and well-being of a given object in tangible and/or intangible heritage is affirmed as that of an “orchestrator” of conservation process.

      Valuation plays a crucial role in recognition, strategic decision-making, and in complex negotiations devoted to the care of cultural heritage, which can often be very difficult in theory and also in conservation practice. We now understand that the protection and management of cultural heritage resources are a way of ensuring their maximum possible vitality, values and functions to the benefit of current and future generations, attributing them an important role in a sustainable social system.

    233. Alf Baird says:

      Andy Ellis @ 10.53

      Good to see you responded this time.

      You (and the SNP ScotGov, unfortunately) appear to misunderstand the concept of ‘civic nationalism’. Civic Nationalism defines an association of people who identify themselves “as belonging to a nation” (Nash 2001). Most ‘No’ voters, and especially those No voters holding to other national identities (and to a sense of belonging to these other countries), are in fact actively blocking and hence rejecting the reality and offer of Scottish citizenship, and indeed they are are also rejecting and preventing Scottish nationality. These No voters are therefore arguably rejecting the offer of ‘belonging’ to Scotland. Moreover, Scotland cannot logically or legally offer its national citizenship to anyone until after independence. Thus, civic nationalism is not only misunderstood (in Scotland), it is premature.

      On the other franchise matter you raise, I am not saying that all Scots (by parental descent) living outside Scotland should necessarily be given the vote on what is the national self-determination of the Scottish people. There are still sufficient Scots (by parental descent) living in Scotland today (even after centuries of excessive displacement, and in-migration) to return a ‘Yes’ vote. However it is evident that perhaps as much as half the ‘No’ vote do not hold much (if any) sense of ‘belonging’ to Scotland (primarily because they do not see themselves as having a/any Scottish identity-see Bond 2015), and they prove this by voting to reject Scottish citizenship for themselves, but more importantly they are effectively blocking and preventing this right for indigenous Scots, which we might say is itself a form of ethnic discrimination, if not also blood and soil (British) nationalism, and indeed colonialism as well.

    234. Dan says:

      @ Andy Ellis

      Re. Nation building, aye there doesn’t seem to have been much impetus in progressing initiatives and divergence from the UK way of doing things.
      Transport is devolved (for the time being…) so there could have been developments in this area that could have been implemented to show we can do things better or fairer. Obviously we now have the Queensferry crossing and dualling the A9 on the go, but what about the administrative aspects of transport.
      It doesn’t say much for those supposedly wanting Scottish independence if they lack the imagination or gumption to do things any differently than what we currently have in the UK. If it’s just gonna be the same old with Indy then what’s the point.

      A neighbour needed to resit their driving test recently (failed for being over cautious which always miffs me as a fail point).
      It was difficult enough to get a test in the first place because of covid just before lockdown came in. There were NO buses to our village so getting to work was extremely difficult as the parent works different shift patterns so having their own cars would really have helped.
      When lockdown eased to the point tests became available they were something like caller number 541 in the queue because the centre was dealing with UK wide applications.
      If Scotland had setup our own administration for this it surely would have been better.

      Could we collect road excise duty by adding a small amount to the price of fuel at the pump and doing away with the administive work and hassle of procuring road tax.
      Duty added to fuel would be more proportional for both road use and environmental aspects and mean if you do loads of miles or drive a thirsty car you pay more than someone who only does a couple of thousand a year.
      That would also mean if your car moves under it’s own power it has paid the duty and does away with the offence of driving with no road tax.

      Which reminds me, my car tax and insurance needs paying soon, and at the moment I do about two journeys of 5 miles a week so really hammering the road infrastructure and getting the benefit of paying hunners a year. This new normal is kinda expensive!

    235. Tom says:

      you may think you know what Campbell Gunn (former adviser to both AS and NS) thinks about the great falling-out, but his interview with David Clegg in the DC Thomson ‘Stooshie’ podcast is still worth hearing. Embedded within this article ..

    236. Bailey says:

      Andy Ellis at 11:54 am. You’re the one living in cloud cuckoo land. I didn’t say anything about the Baltic states or Catalonia. It’s you who brought them up. They are nothing to do with us. You’re the only one who brought the EU up. The current franchise is a clear breach of international norm and works against the indigenous population. Clinging onto the idea that the current franchise can’t be changed is nonsense. Holyrood is being stripped of its powers. England could potentially force a change. It doesn’t care about devolved niceties.

      As there is no chance of a second pre-independence referendum, I am not saying that we will have to enact a new franchise or take the “movement” with me. I didn’t say that anywhere. The Scottish Government and “movement” are moribund. I am not “waiting for the international courts to do anything”. We will have to leave by the means we came in by and that means the treaty of union. I didn’t say we are a colony. You misrepresent what other posters say. We are in a bipartite treaty which we will have to rescind. The only way out now is through the UN and international courts. You seem to be under the impression that the Scottish Government will go down this route. They will not. It will have to be done by citizens. After we have left the failed union the ratification franchise can be ruled on by the UN under the terms of international law. They have tribunals for sounding old treaties. You can forget the current franchise. We have a majority for independence so the “political means” that you talk of are there. We had a majority in 2014 of Scots and, in breach of international law, non-Scots kept us in the union. It’s not as simple as you say anyway, as a signatory to an international treaty, the UN will have to rule on it at some point. There is no way round that. The right to residency and work permits for non-Scots can be looked at after independence.

    237. Andy Ellis says:


      There are estimated to be 800,000 Scots born folk in the rest of the UK, and 200,000 in the rest of the world. Many (most?) may never return. The idea they should get to decide the fate of Scotland on an equal footing with those living here in an indyref or plebiscitary election is just not going to fly.

      The proposed citizenship process in the White Paper from memory would have allowed all of those people to claim citizenship, as well as their children (it’s similar to the current Irish scheme: I know 2 English people with absolutely no connection to Ireland other than a grandparent who was born there who now have Irish passports).

      I remember arguing with Scots yoons in the 2012-14 period about this. I always put a proposition to them, which not a single one accepted: if you as a non-resident want the right to vote in a referendum on the basis of your “future” citizenship right, it should be on the basis that your vote is recorded, and in the event Scotland votes for independence, you lose your right to UK citizenship. It was a great way to separate the goats from the sheep: unsurprisingly these folk are British first and Scottish second.

    238. Hatuey says:

      In regards to Boris on Marr today saying this isn’t the time for another referendum, how long before some SNP asswipe or another points out that he didn’t actually say “no”?

    239. If voting qualification in Indy 2 was for Scottish citizens only,

      would that raise the Yes vote to the high 50% maybe even 60%,

      as i wrote earlier, only citizens can vote in national elections in Norway,

      `to become a citizen in Norway(outwith being born there)

      ` you must have lived in Norway for a total of seven of the past ten years. In addition, you must have held valid residence permits (such as a work permit) that cover that period of time.`

      maybe Scotland could adopt a similar qualification , maybe 5 year main home residency to qualify to be a citizen,

      you don`t have to become a citizen to enjoy the benefits of living in Scotland but you can`t vote in our national elections (local ok).

    240. Andy Ellis says:


      I never said the current franchise can’t be changed, I just believe it’s vanishingly unlikely. I brought up the Baltic states, Catalonia and Quebec as exemplars because discussion of the differences is germane to this debate.

      I tend to agree a second referendum is unlikely, at least in the short to medium, but it’s far from impossible. I’d prefer plebiscitary elections myself.

      I’m not misrepresenting what other posters say. Perhaps you’re just too narrow in your focus?

      You’re proposing something that’ll never happen, both because the courts you propose to go to aren’t interested and won’t hear the case, but also because it has no support here. there is much work to be done before we ever get to that point.

    241. CameronB Brodie says:

      Well said, your man’s a fraud, IMHO, and simply here to undermine hope. His stance is uninterested and incapable of defending international human rights law, so I don’t think folk should really be giving his unsubstantiated opinion much consideration.

      Doing Aesthetics with Arendt: How to See Things

    242. Hatuey says:

      Andy, I didn’t suggest all those Scots abroad etc., ought to be allowed to vote.

      I think you’re right though that having the right at a future date to claim Scottish citizenship shouldn’t make you eligible to vote today.

      I could claim Irish citizenship tomorrow, if I wanted, but that shouldn’t give me the right to vote on say Irish unification, unless I exercise the right and claim citizenship first.

      My proposal requiring residency here and being born here (both) seems like a good solution,

      This is all extremely hypothetical though, difficult to take seriously.

    243. Robert Graham says:

      Alf @12:15

      Eh Alf was that using yer Sunday name on another platform this morning ? .

      If it was, the reply was a bit over the top to a perfectly reasonable comment , I guess it wasn’t reasonable enough for the site owner , aye the scatter gun method using censorship as a excuse will soon piss Off even the most loyal brain dead unquestioning supporters that seem to be attracted to that site .
      This attitude won’t last especially with a dwindling audience it’s on a downward slope , I can see the Toys being tossed out the pram and the site shut citing abuse as the reason for its closure .

      I guess only acceptable views are welcome, acceptable to the site owner , it’s my view or no view , oh well good to know what the score is then ,Agree and you are ok , offer any alternative opinion and yer oot , surprised you weren’t banned .

    244. Confused says:

      Someone once told me a Skye residents meeting had the feeling of a home counties gymkhana – “new scots”, my arse – let’s all just sell the jerseys in case the Guardianistas get offended.

      – the chutzpah, of being accused of racism by settlers is breathtaking, for it is a double scam –

      London steals our wealth, inflates a property bubble, all the loyal tories down South get to wet their beaks, get this massive bribe, this pile of unearned wealth THEN cash it in on retirement for a nice highland estate, driving the locals into further impoverishment, effectively, robbing us twice, using our own wealth to do it – a double scam.

      – then calling native Scots “racists” for not liking it one bit!!

      The Daily Mail has partially turned itself into a “scottish property” brochure – this is the level of scum you are importing – they are not us and don’t want to be us – it’s british empire all the way, or post-Brexit, a new nightmare called “the Anglosphere”

      Scotland’s destiny, without independence, is to become a theme park – Willy McWonka land – and we are to be the Oompah McLoompahs and our resources are to be pillaged to fix whatever messes down south their own folly has created.

      BUT WE CANNOT TALK ABOUT THIS BECAUSE BOURGEOIS-LEFTY-BEDWETTERS get “triggered” by -their interpretation- of “civic nationalism” being violated!

      At some point a new census will be done and the ukgov horrified to find out how many people are now in England; just building more Barratt homes won’t work as it’s all floodplain – then some bureaucrat decides to look at a map and realises Scotland has 2/3 the area of England, with 1/10 the population … gears whirr … and so how long do you think our national parks will last?

      – we need to act very soon, or it’s over – and we need to start being clear in our message : use simple words like –

      invader, foreigner, thief

    245. Alf Baird says:

      Robert Graham @ 12.54

      My Sunday name somehow came out on the WGD system. I don’t think WGD gets it, much like the SNP ScotGov elite. They’ve adopted this ‘civic nationalism’ posture which they don’t even understand the implications of. The use of a local government election franchise for national elections/referendums is actually illegal in most other countries. They don’t seem to appreciate that a residence-based franchise deployed at the national level represents a dangerous dilution of national sovereignty, ie anybody from anywhere who just happens to have a postcode in Scotland can vote your nation out of existence. I suspect the ScotGov are using local gov franchise because it means they don’t need to do any extra work – and if it prevents independence so much the better for Whitehall’s finest. Ever feel you’ve been duped?

    246. Alf Baird says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 12.40

      Yes, a bit of a (cultural) ringer we might say. Not surprising given the abject lack of relevant academic outputs on Scottish indy from the ‘International Relations’ team at SAU. Did notice one surprise there though, apparently a ‘Scottish’ academic – though sadly again with limited written output to base a chair upon:

    247. Bailey says:

      Andy Ellis at 12:33. The Treaty of Union is extant. The International Court of Justice will “sound” it in law. If you are saying that the courts won’t hear it why do they have tribunals to sound such treaties? You are saying that there is no support for that here. No support from whom? The vast majority of the public don’t know there is another way out. You are not the arbiter of what the judges will decide to rule on. You are saying there is a long way to go. The Scottish Parliament is being stripped of its powers. We are in the eleventh hour.

    248. Achnababan says:

      Stuart Mackay
      Yes you are right – there is a careful path to follow here. But I feel we have to stand up against colonisation. I am not anti-English, I am anti colonisation!

      If we are not careful rich capitalists will soon own all our land and resources and keep us outside their walls.

      Our land and our resources need to work for the betterment of our society and we have to resist colonisation and protect oor ain culture, language and way of thinking. WE cannot allow unionists and capitalists to neuter us by claiming anyone who holds this view is a racist.

      I am not a racist BUT I simply don’t want to be colonsied by foreign rich people who disrespect me and my culture

    249. Achnababan says:

      Alf Baird and others
      St Andrew’s University, Scotland’s oldest has been colonised by the British for a very long time. Edinburgh has gone the same way.

      For over 2100 years most gifted Scots students, especially from the Gaelic Highlands preferred Aberdeen and Glasgow.

      Most Scottish Universities are headed by British Unionists even though some try to speak with pretendy Scottish accents.

    250. Achnababan says:

      sorry 100 years not 2100 !!

    251. CameronB Brodie says:

      Alf Baird
      I’m very rusty and wasn’t anything particularly special when in practice, but I’m reconnecting to the theory and practice of cultural de-colonisation. So I think I’ve got a pretty good grip on Andy’s take on International Relations and self-determination. And it is quite frankly unhelpful to our cause, IMHO. 😉

      Re-Visioning Psychiatry
      Cultural Phenomenology, Critical Neuroscience, and Global Mental Health

      Section One – Restoring Phenomenology to Psychiatry
      5 – Cultural Phenomenology and Psychiatric Illness

    252. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not suggesting Andy has mental health issues, though he is clearly an arrogant snob. What I am suggesting is that mental health is part of human health and global health, but Scots law and culture is being forced to reject medical philosophy and bioethics. So Scots are being encouraged to reject both the Common law and the Moral law.

      The judgment of those who would deny the biological differences between the sexes MUST NOT BE TRUSTED, as it is indicative of a tendency towards totalitarianism. Which is almost certainly why we are being removed from the EU against our democratic vote.

      Journal of Healthcare Communications, Published Date: July 29, 2017
      A Critical Overview of Interpretative Phenomenological Analysis: A Contemporary Qualitative Research Approach

    253. Andy Ellis says:


      You’re hilarious. The town planner in the spectrum whose output probably reflects how effectively he sticks to his meds questioning others mental health?

      Like being savaged by a dead sheep….

    254. CameronB Brodie says:

      Andy Ellis
      You’re simply upset at coming up against someone who is competent to show you up for being a clown-shoes balloon. 😉

      Using Phenomenological Hermeneutics to Gain
      Understanding of Stakeholders in Healthcare Contexts

    255. Andy Ellis says:


      The ICJ may become involved at some future point, but it won’t be any time soon. As our Catalan friends found out to their cost, the international community hates to get involved in difficult decisions. Even in situations like Kosovo, which involved allegations of mass murder and clear evidence of ethnic cleansing, it was loathe to become involved.

      In situations like Scotland, Catalonia and Quebec the presumption is that “internal self determination” will only be seriously considered in limited circumstances. Those seeking to secede have to demonstrate they have tried all other available avenues and either been denied, or still decided they want independence not some other remedy like federalism or another type of association short of independence.

      Self determination is a right for any people, but it isn’t unlimited or automatic.

      There is negligible support here for alternative solutions, whether UDI or references to the ICJ or appeals to any other body, none of which would have a cat’s chance in hell of happening any time soon anyway.

      I never said I was any sort of arbiter. Again, please try to interact with what people say, not what you wrongly infer.

      If the British nationalists try to strip Holyrood of its powers, or continue to refuse to recognise a referendum on the same terms as 2014, the Scots people have a choice. As the Canadian Supreme Court noted in its discussion of the Clarity Act, the international community is entitled to note any lack of goof faith on the part of one side in a debate on secession, and may well accept UDI if it feels the “metropolitan” power is not acting in good faith.

      Kosovo is now recognised by the majority of the UN, even though UDI is a risky path but many countries still refuse to recognise it most of them because they have axes to grind with their own secessionary movements. Catalonia failed to get any traction for its attempt to secede, and virtually nobody but the Turks recognises the Turkish Republic of North Cyprus.

      I don’t know about you, but I’d rather ensure our independence was as smooth as reasonably possible and recognised quickly and comprehensively. I don’t believe we need Westminster’s permission, but it will be a much easier process if we use an agreed process, and the only two currently feasible are a 2014 style referendum or a majority gained in plebiscitary elections.

      The former isn’t happening anytime soon thanks to the current SNP leadership. Only the latter gives any realistic hope of independence in the short to medium term.

      If you have a more realistic alternative, let’s hear it?

    256. Andy Ellis says:


      Do let me know when this fabled competent person shows up bud!

    257. CameronB Brodie says:

      Of course, Andy simply wants folk to accept his opinion at face value, though he is ambivalent towards international human rights law. So your man’s comprehension of IR is quite frankly corrupted with cultural bias, or he’s simply a yoon ringer. Either way, he wears big, shiny, clown-shoes.

      International Sociology 23(1):115-141, January 2008
      International Human Rights Law and the Politics of Legitimation

    258. Andy Ellis says:


      Honestly, that’s your best shot? Because you get your arse handed to you on a regular basis, your opponent must be a “yoon ringer”? Uh huh.

      Sounds pretty desperate even for you bud.

    259. CameronB Brodie says:

      Andy Ellis
      It’s clear you lack competence to support public health and the rule-of-law, and that’s simply a fact of life you’ll have to learn to deal with. I just wish you wouldn’t inflict your warped perspective on us, as if it contains unquestionable intellectual value and authority. The reality is, you have a rather poorly informed point of view that you appear unable to justify through the support of outside sources, or the law, yet you want us to respect your authority. So please excuse me for not being able to take you too seriously. Mkay?

      Human Rights: Politics and Practice (3rd edn)
      4. Human Rights in International Law

    260. Andy Ellis says:


      You’ve gone from complaining to others just yesterday what a great team you and I would make (which was kinda creepy to be honest, we’ve never met and I’d kinda like to keep it that way), to accusing me of being a yoon.

      If it weren’t so pathetic it would be funny. Presumably if Stu was unhappy with my warped perspective he’d let us know. He seems a fairly forgiving sort when it comes to BTL comments, as is evidenced by his willingness to put up with your contributions, despite their doubtful value, and the fact that more people complain about them than thank you for your apparently limitless Google mining.

      I’m not asking anyone to respect my authority or even agree with me. the difference between you and I is that I can at least think for myself and present a case without the need to bolster my paper thin ego pasting largely irrelevant links few ever read. You don’t have any perspective or real ideas of your own, you just uncritically regurgitate bulk links in lieu of an actual argument.

    261. CameronB Brodie says:

      Andy Ellis
      You might not be a yoon but you are definitely a balloon, who appears unable to support human rights and the international rule of law. Remember, Scotland is neither Catalonia or Kosovo, you clown.

      Land Forces Academy Review, Vol. XXIII, No 3(91), 2018

      The State, as the fundamental unit of the international system, appeals to ultimate power and authority in order to control its own domestic affairs and claims equality as a legal basis regarding its relation with other legal political units.

      But the existence of the sovereign state in the current international context, where the multiple interdependencies generate divergence and cooperation in the same, is subject to permanent challenges. And the issue is not easy approachable in theory, nor in practice. Like other concepts, as security or democracy, the concept of sovereignty needs to be updated according to the new rules revealed by the process of globalization, rules that are defined not by the equal states, but by the powerful ones.

      international law, international relations, recognition, sovereignty.

    262. Liz g says:

      OT 🙂
      Just showing up in the middle of the day to give a shout out to my No 1 fan boy.
      Ye know who ye are and so do we 🙂

    263. CameronB Brodie says:

      Remember, the British constitution is a political agreement that was articulated through the Common law. Westminster no longer feels constrained by the Common law though, and are interpreting the constitution as a source of absolute legal authority that compels Scots to act against our best interests. This is simply arbitrary and dogmatic legal practice that is incompatible with the Common law, the British constitution, or the principles of open democracy and liberal constitutionalism.

      Also, there are different schools of International Relations, some more progressive than others. Andy simply appears to have developed a perspective that favours Political Realism, which is a bit old fashioned. This is possibly why he’s unable to support international human rights law. Though he’s also declined to outline his philosophical and scientific position and outlook, so I simply can’t say which school he privileges.

      International Studies Review (2003) 5, 303–323
      The New Sovereignty in
      International Relations

    264. Joe says:


      My wife isn’t Scottish and has not been here long but got her voter registration and she asked:

      ‘They are giving me the right to vote? But i’ve hardly been here?’

      ‘Aye. But that’s how they want to do it.’

      ‘But that’s so stupid. Who would give foreigners power to change their own country?’

      ‘Well, it looks like we Scots would’.

      It’s worse than that as we are now going to have votes from people straight out of leftist indoctrination centers (schools) with no real practical life knowledge.

      Don’t worry though. We can all have our daily 2 minutes of hate against a foreign politician we have absolutely no power over.


    265. CameronB Brodie says:

      To be honest, I’m not sure if Andy actually knows where he’s coming from, as his philosophical positioning appears to be all over the place. With regards the international community’s response to Scotland, I get the impression he privileges Political Realism, which is pretty right-wing in nature and hostile to gender equality. However, he appears to support women’s rights, which would suggest a more Constructivist, or even Feminist leaning IR stance. So I’m really not sure what to make of his opinion, other than it appears to be a tad incoherent, and he appears unwilling or incapable of supporting it with outside evidence. Not the sort of opinion to trust, IMHO.

      European Journal of International Law, Volume 22, Issue 2, May 2011, Pages 373–387
      Sovereignty, International Law and Democracy


      In my reply to Jeremy Waldron’s article ‘Are Sovereigns Entitled to the Benefit of the International Rule of Law?’, I draw upon and in some ways expand Waldron’s important contribution to our understanding of the international rule of law.

      First of all, I suggest that Waldron’s argument about the international rule of law can be used to illuminate how we should understand the legitimate authority of international law over sovereign states, but also how some of sovereign states’ residual independence ought to be protected from legitimate international law.

      Secondly, I argue that the democratic pedigree of the international rule of law plays a role when assessing how international law binds democratic sovereign states and whether the international rule of law can and ought to benefit their individual subjects.

      Finally, I emphasize how Waldron’s argument that the international rule of law ought to benefit individuals in priority has implications for the sources of international law and for what sources can be regarded as sources of valid law.

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