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Scottish politics in numbers

Posted on October 25, 2017 by

Percentage of A&E patients in Scotland in 2017 to date seen within four hours (target 95%), described by Labour MSP Colin Smyth as a “deeply troubling” figure: 94%

Percentage of the vote on which Mr Smyth was elected as an MSP in 2016: 8.9%

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1025 to “Scottish politics in numbers”

  1. frogesque
    Ignored
    says:

    Brave Catalunia!

    Many of us are with you in spirit

  2. Alex Clark
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ken500

    Where’s your paragraph breaks?

    You don’t want to be killed by hammers do you. Have a lie down, you are losing it and any respect you might have had before from me.

    I totally disagree with you on the Catalan situation, you are perfectly entitled to state yours here on Wings so don’t be surprised when others disagree.

  3. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    Utter zoomer being interviewed by Sky news..

    Seperatists were violent during referendum, not police…seperatists want violence after today…hardly anyone was injured during referendum…yada yada yada…

    Hardly even a half hearted attempt at telling her she was talking shite.

  4. bob
    Ignored
    says:

    I wish we had the cojones to do yhe same.

  5. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    So, ken500…are you seriously saying that if, in a theoretical future WM GE, the SNP and all other unionist parties, decide to boycott the election, that the resultant government will not be valid and they will not form a government because Scots never took part ?

    You must have rocks in your head.

    If you abstain or fail to vote, you are accepting the result of the vote, it is your right not to engage in a vote, but the vote without you, becomes the legally binding result.

  6. Vestas
    Ignored
    says:

    Ken500 at his delusional “best”…

    You need sectioning matey

  7. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    @ geeo says at 3:54 pm …. ”Proud Cybernat …. While you do that in 2021, those of us who gave Scotland independence in the next year and a half will cheer ye oan bud…lol.”

    Forget about 2021. Four years away, FGS? Anyone got any idea of the damage that could be done to the SNP Government, Holyrood itself, the Independence movement via the MSM / Westminster and to Scotland with Brexit alone in the next four years? Any catastrophic result that is going to befall Scotland through Brexit will get ‘lumped’ onto the SNP, no doubt about it. Then there’s the Withdrawal Bill, more austerity cuts etc, etc. Oh, and add to that hundreds of thousands of relocators heading our way.

    This is our last chance folks, IMO. We’ve got a mandate to hold a Referendum, so let’s hold it when the bare bones of the Brexit deal has been clarified.

    Last chance saloon.

  8. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Juteman says: 27 October, 2017 at 12:47 pm:

    “Yet again Mr Peffers shows his ignorance of Dundee football.
    It was Dundee United that were connected to Hibs, not Dundee FC.”

    Yeah! Dead ignorant, that’s me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwcBaG-S7UA

  9. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Wullie B @ 15:59:

    I left comment on NYT about their use of the word “separatists”, and asked them if they celebrated Separatism Day every July 4th

    Well said there.

    They are by no means alone in their hypocrisy either.

    This thing about “the Law of Spain” is an embarrassingly minuscule fig leaf. It would have been trivially easy to have agreed a legitimate advisory referendum, let the people have their full and unfettered say, then decide on the basis of the result how best to proceed.

    But the Madrid regime didn’t want that, and we all know why – because it was afraid of the expected result.

    That’s not “Law”, that’s dictatorship.

    And a “democratic dictatorship” is just as repugnant as any other kind.

  10. Wull
    Ignored
    says:

    While fully supporting Catalonia, some of the above arguments and comments should make us more aware than ever of various dangers which will eventually confront us, when Scotland finally votes for independence.

    The one that worries me most, in regard to Scotland’s case, is the notion that the principle of self-determination overcomes that of territorial integrity. When we do finally vote for independence, expect an onslaught on our territorial integrity, aided and abetted by Westminster.

    There are many parts of Scotland including, in particular, many islands, where English people, mainly retirees, already form or a majority of the current population, or soon could do. During the campaign for the 2014 referendum there was already talk of the likes of Shetland becoming independent, or opting to stay with England, if Yes won.

    We may be sure that England / Westminster will foment as much dissension as it possibly can, along these lines, in the immediate wake of a Yes victory at the next Indyref. Besides some of the islands, they might even try to ‘capture’ in this way whatever parts of the Scottish Borders they think they can lay their hands on.

    I don’t think the English nationalists, who will be sorely offended by the vote, will succeed in the long run. But we should not expect them just to roll over; a real and immediate effort will be made to cause maximum damage to a Scotland about to become independent.

    One of the revelations over the past few years, at least to me, has been the depth of English resentment and even hatred towards Scotland. Not by all English people by any means, of course – most are reasonable – but by enough of them, and especially enough of those who wield power and influence, to let that hatred make a difference, and to make sure it is felt.

    I used to think England was pretty indifferent towards Scotland, and that the resentment was more on our side: the last few years made me wake up to the fact that the opposite was the case. And very much the case; our resentments were comparatively mild and mainly jocular. Theirs, we now know, are something else altogether.

    The dismemberment of Scotland will be a real goal for some, and not just, even not mainly for financial reasons. That some of the reasons will be financial, certainly, but – and I am sorry to say this – the main reasons will be emotional and vindictive.

    Even if they were to succeed, which I doubt, the financial gain even regarding Shetland if it were to become an English or even an independent enclave, within Scottish waters, would not be huge. I know next to nothing about these things but, according to what I hear of the way international law works, all the oil would still belong to Scotland. What happens with fish-landing, I do not know.

    My point is not the detail of what could happen, and hopefully never will; I leave that to others with far more knowledge of the matter than I have. My point is simply this: even after a Yes vote, expect trouble. That is, among other things, expect trouble-makers to foment as much uncertainty about the future integrity of Scotland as they possibly can.

    For me, the fact that Scotland is and will be a unitary state, within the exact boundaries she has always had since the end of the 15th Century, is hugely important and needs always to be affirmed. That is why there should have been much more vociferous complaint when the sea boundary between Scottish and English waters east of Berwick was arbitrarily re-drawn by the Labour Westminster government when Donald Dewar was Secretary of State for Scotland. Not only at that moment, but even now our complaint about that totally unjustified action should be being heard more loudly and more clearly than ever.

    If we do not complain, silence is understood to mean acquiescence. The territorial integrity of Scotland has to be defended with might and mane by all those who represent her. The people were never consulted on the loss of these waters, and surely never agreed to that loss.

    The idea of dismembering the Kingdom of Scotland, by the way, has a long, long history. It goes together with the idea of treating what was and is a Kingdom as if it were a mere estate. In 1292 Bruce the Competitor, when he knew that Edward I would not support his claim to the kingship, which would instead be awarded to John Balliol, proposed that Scotland be split in three. One-third to him, one-third to Balliol and one-third to someone else – I can’t remember who it was off-hand, but maybe it was to Edward himself.

    Edward, of course, had other ideas. He wanted the whole thing. So this desperate last throw of the dice by old Bruce, trying to salvage something for himself from his failed bid for the throne, came to nothing. The very fact that he tried it was of course an assault on the integrity of Scotland as it then was (it did not yet include Orkney and Shetland). Dismemberment has a long history.

    Edward I, of course, also treated it as an estate, not a Kingdom, immediately treating Balliol after his enthronement as a vassal king, under his (Edward’s) lordship. Four years later, in 1296, he (literally, physically) stripped Balliol of all the signs of kingship and thereby declared the Scottish kingdom abolished: in future it was simply to be referred to as ‘the land’ of Scotland. Belonging, of course, to him and his descendants as its ‘lord’ – and master!

    If dismemberment is bad enough, abolition is worse. And bear in mind that any attempt to dismember Scotland, even today, will ultimately aim not just at weakening Scotland but, eventually, at making it disappear altogether. England has always wanted the abolition of Scotland. And, guess what? It still does.

    Personally, underneath all the arguments and all the details, I think that is the underlying war that is still being waged. If Scotland stays within the UK, she will very quickly be abolished. The new UK that people are talking about will reduce Scotland to the status of Wales, which was ‘incorporated’ into England in the 16th Century. That is the model operating in the minds of those who talk about the UK as a ‘4-nation Union’.

    What they mean is that the 3 smaller component parts have all been incorporated in the one big one, which is England. As Wales was. Scotland is the new Wales, reduced, constitutionally, to the status of Wales. That is probably what many in England think and believe happened in 1707. In spite of the 1707 Treaty documents, which of course they don’t read and which they would claim don’t matter anyway – they were only a means to an end – they think Edward I’s aims had at last been achieved.

    The Union that brought the UK into existence, which was the Union between Scotland and England in 1707, is effectively in process of being abolished. And removed from people’s consciousness by a load of guff, which has no reality in law, about the UK being a ‘4-nation union’. The Scottish government and the Scottish people have to stand up to these lies, this propaganda, with which we are bombarded day and night, and which is all around us.

    One of the main reasons why Scotland must now become independent is to avoid her own abolition. The choice becomes increasingly stark day by day: either we become independent, or we disappear as a nation.

    Now is the hour.

    Luckily for us, once he got hold of the Scottish crown in 1306, which was the meaning and purpose of his whole existence, Bruce the Competitor’s grandson proved himself worthy of it. The number of parallels that keep arising between his day and ours – with all the differences in circumstance that apply, and even after all these centuries – never ceases to amaze me. We are still in the same fight, it turns out. Because amazingly, unbelievably – this utterly dumbfounds me – England is still at the same game as it was 700 years ago.

  11. frogesque
    Ignored
    says:

    I see the Express are trying to fan the flames by talking up the prospect of a new Spanish Civil War.

  12. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    Ha ha I got a “Pick” on my posting on the NYT 🙂 Need to load more comments all the same to see it. I always play it very carefully on overseas media. Reasonable but biased!

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/27/world/europe/spain-catalonia-puigdemont.html?src=trending&module=Ribbon&version=origin&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Trending&pgtype=article&login=email

  13. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    “geeo says:

    27 October, 2017 at 4:07 pm
    The Scottish Lion didn’t “whimper” in 2014 you ignorant tit.

    They were subjegated by threats, lies, and scaremongering.

    Those wavering Scots did not have the massive advantage of pro indy media which Catalans enjoyed.”

    ________

    geeo

    What a load of bollocks.

    We had over two years to root out the truth, we had the majority of the truth posted on social media,we had the Wee Blue Book, we had the Scottish governments Whitepaper. We had a massive grassroots movement.

    All those outlets countered the unionist myths, no one neede to go to the polls uninformed.

    All of the above, was in the public domain to counter the BT lies, we bottled it end of.

  14. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Wullie B says: 27 October, 2017 at 12:12 pm:

    “For those looking for news on Catalonia Twitter has a Pro Indy Catalonian journalist called Josep Goded, he is giving up to date info”

    http://uk.reuters.com/search/news?sortBy=&dateRange=&blob=catalonia

    Or go to Reuters News agency:-

    http://uk.reuters.com/news/uk

    Then click on the wee magnifying glass at the top right corner and type in, “Catalonia”, and press enter:-

    This will take you to a changing with updates page currently:-

    http://uk.reuters.com/search/news?sortBy=&dateRange=&blob=catalonia

  15. Chick McGregor
    Ignored
    says:

    OT Apologetically given current events but Brent crude has gone through the $60 point and a lot earlier than expected.

    Not rocket science, of course, to predict that the Saudi Royal visit to Russia would produce a Sheikh up and that they would soon be Putin up the oil price. The Saudis were running out of dosh and in need of yet more arms for their peace-keeping plans.

  16. TheItalianJob
    Ignored
    says:

    @Wull at 4.57

    What you have written is spot on. We will be given a very hard time if we vote for Independence.

    We need to be prepared to preserve our nation as such.

    But as we learned from 2014 it was never going to be easy.

    We are a resilient people and we will prevail.

    Good post.

  17. Wullie B
    Ignored
    says:

    Got a comment through and now a readers pick four third one will see light of day as asked about comment deletions on New York Times

  18. Blair Paterson
    Ignored
    says:

    I still say that when the SNP got 56 MPs out of 59 then that was a mandate,for lndependence I mean everyone knows the SNP whole purpose is Scottish independence so all them voters who voted those 56 in new what they were voting for so that was a majority for independence why the SNP did not implement it is beyond me they say they will wait until they have a majority they think will vote yes well they had their majority and did nothing please don’t get me wrong I support the SNP and will always do so but I am baffled as to why they did not act when they could and in my opinion should have done so

  19. One_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    ‘All those outlets countered the unionist myths, no one neede to go to the polls uninformed.’

    You’re having a laugh, right?

  20. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Every country will condemn Catalonia and back away from them

    Until Catalonia wins

    Then they’ll all get on with the job of accepting them graciously and generously making offers of support and most importantly trade deals

    If Spain wins it will be judged on the way it wins

  21. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    There’s a good few reasonable comments on the WP as far as I could be bothered reading.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-day-of-fireworks-in-catalonia-both-spanish-and-catalan-parliaments-are-scheduled-to-convene/2017/10/27/09685d34-ba90-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_story.html#comments

    And what Washington actually said was “Catalonia is an integral part of Spain, and the United States supports the Spanish government’s constitutional measures to keep Spain strong and united”

    which isn’t the same as saying they won’t support its Independence. US State Department double talk, quite right too!

  22. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    The Catalan police force will not be working for Madrid, certain of that.

  23. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Blair Paterson

    I still say that when the SNP got 56 MPs out of 59 then that was a mandate,for lndependence I mean everyone knows the SNP whole purpose is Scottish independence so all them voters who voted those 56 in new what they were voting for so that was a majority for independence…

    No. The SNP’s message in the 2015 GE to Labour supporters was “Lend us your Vote” and “A vote for the SNP in the GE is not a vote for independence”.

    You are saying that the SNP should have gone back on their word and broken their trust with the Scottish electorate. Not a good move.

  24. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    One_Scot says:
    27 October, 2017 at 5:03 pm

    ‘All those outlets countered the unionist myths, no one neede to go to the polls uninformed.’

    “You’re having a laugh, right?”

    _______

    One_Scot.

    Erm….no.

    Putting those aside that voted for independence no matter what.

    I suppose all those other folk who decided to vote yes to independence did so because it was a nice sunny day, and not due to one of reasons I gave above, with regards to available information.

  25. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    The SNP got a very large majority of MPs at GE17 over combined unionist ConLabLibs whose whole campaign was stop the SNP.

    Referendum guaranteed.

  26. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh dear andy-b…if you think social media has the same reach and perceived gravitas as ALL MASS MEDIA, printed and TV media (bar one outlet) then you are a deluded clown.

    Dont bother dribbling any more pish in my direction son. You are on ignore.

  27. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t know if I just misheard there, or not, but I’m sure a reporter on Sky has just said that Theresa May has stated that the UK won’t recognise Catalan Independence. If I heard right she’s the first to get the boot in, surprise, surprise!

  28. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    Twitter…

    “Nicola Sturgeon?Verified account @NicolaSturgeon 7m7 minutes ago
    More
    Nicola Sturgeon Retweeted Scottish Government
    .@scotgov on #Catalonia independence declaration: “We respect position…people of Catalonia must have ability to determine own future.”

  29. TheItalianJob
    Ignored
    says:

    @Petra

    You’re right that is what Sky are indeed reporting.

    British Government Reacts

    The UK “does not and will not recognise” the Catalan parliament’s vote for declaring independence, a spokesperson for Prime Minister Theresa May has said.

    They added: “It is based on a vote that was declared illegal by the Spanish courts.

    “We continue to want to see the rule of law upheld, the Spanish Constitution respected, and Spanish unity preserved.”

    Quelle Surprise!! Not!!

  30. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    Wee explanation of that link I posted without comment.

    Reuters runs a breaking news site. It includes text and video clips and it reflects the news as Reuters gets it and, of course is on-line before the BBC.et al. get a chance to filter it for UK sheeple.

    If you go to that cited link it shows a picture of an event but you will see an arrow on either side of whatever you are watching so you can move to the next item or back to a previous item.

    However Reuters also cover the news item with text. It is, beyond doubt the very best way to keep up to date and avoids all Westminster’s best attempts to keep you misinformed.

    Here is the link again:-

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-spain-politics-catalonia/catalonia-declares-independence-from-spain-direct-madrid-rule-looms-idUKKBN1CW0VB

    If you do not get audio there is a wee speaker icon bottom left you must click to turn sound on.

  31. Andy-B
    Ignored
    says:

    “geeo says:

    27 October, 2017 at 5:26 pm
    Oh dear andy-b…if you think social media has the same reach and perceived gravitas as ALL MASS MEDIA, printed and TV media (bar one outlet) then you are a deluded clown.

    Dont bother dribbling any more pish in my direction”

    _____
    geeo.

    Pffft.

    What a load of Jackie Baillie, that reply is.

    Putting social media aside for a moment, there was as I said plenty of other forms of information. Getting out there and weighing up the info changed plenty of people’s minds from no to yes.

    As for the media bias yes I agree, however the SNP in my opinion did come across as more credible during the debates hosted by the hostile channels.

    We didn’t win laddie, but to say it was purely down to bad press, and not enough folk making a effort to find out the truth, is wrong in my opinion.

  32. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    Some ‘individual’ on Sky, SNP I think, was doing well until he was asked about the differences between Scotland and Catalonia and didn’t mention the Constitution or country versus autonomous community. Missed opportunity!

  33. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    “We continue to want to see the rule of law upheld…” – Mayhem

    Rule of law, eh? Is it lawful to smash people exercising their democratic right over the face with a polis baton?

    Feck aff you dithering, moronic numbnut.

  34. Robert Graham
    Ignored
    says:

    BBC news

    No 10 does not recognise Catalan Independence !

    Bet they are Shittin themselves after that news .

    Meanwhile in Jockland Nicola Sturgeon is heard to shout yah beauty to the surprise of the waiting press .

  35. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh dear, the hypocrisy quotient in the world’s media and its btl comments just hit an all-time high.

    Americans who should “by law” still be subjects of our dear old Maj are still divided about whether the Confederate states had the right to secede, and some wingbat Canadians seem to think that Quebec should be occupied territory whether the natives (ex-European variety only, of course) agree to it or not.

    Never mind the Belgians, who got in their little bit of lawlessness in early back in 1830, and tut-tut to the Baltic states for having dared to reassert their autonomy from the former Soviet Empire.

    All old news now, unlike today, which can’t possibly be history-in-the-making because that’s only for dusty old books.

    All change now strictly verboten because somebody in the European Commission is scared that the Frisians will revolt and take a few cows out of the CAP?

    The longer this farrago continues, the more absurd it gets.

    But not a joke to the Catalans, of course, who will soon perhaps be living under a dictatorship imposed by force. That’s “European values” for you?

    The greatest of which must surely be the aforementioned hypocrisy.

  36. Chick McGregor
    Ignored
    says:

    A fascist Spain cannot remain in the EU.

    They will have to leave and join the new fascist axis with the UK and Turkey.

  37. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Share this Link Please .
    trulyscottishtelevision.weebly.com/

  38. One_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    You are living in a fantasy world.

  39. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Meanwhile, all eyes are OFF Kurdistan ….

    “Iraqi government forces and the Tehran-backed Popular Mobilisation launched a surprise offensive on Oct. 16 in retaliation to the Sept. 25 independence referendum organized by the KRG.”

    https://tinyurl.com/y7kuyey6

  40. Hamish100
    Ignored
    says:

    old enough to remember my visit to Spain under Franco.

    The right wing fascists are still there. We saw them beating up peaceful voters as they are scared of the ballot box.

    The tories in England and Scotland have nasty allies.
    What will Labour do? Sit on the fence?

  41. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    It’s a brave move by the Catalonian president.

    I’ve long since thought he could’ve been jailed for that haircut of his.

    Madrid will have an even bigger rap to add to his sheet now.

    Good luck to the guy.

  42. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    18 of the 28 EU members only became independent in the last 200 years, some very recently!

    I have posted this list before, but VERY relevant today.

    * Austria, Restoration of sovereignty 1955
    * Belgium, Indy from the United Netherlands 1831
    * Bulgaria, Indy from the Ottoman Empire 1908
    * Croatia, Indy from SFR Yugoslavia in 1991
    * Cyprus, Indy from the United Kingdom 1960
    * Czech Republic, Czechoslovakia, Indy from Austria-Hungary 1918
    * Estonia, Indy from the Russia 1918, USSR 1991
    * Finland, Indy from the Russia 1917
    * Greece, Indy from Ottoman Empire 1821
    * Ireland, Indy from United Kingdom 1922
    * Latvia, Indy from the Russia 1918, USSR 1990
    * Lithuania, Indy from the Russia 1918, USSR 1991
    * Luxembourg, Indy from Prussia 1839
    * Malta, Indy from United Kingdom 1964
    * Poland, Indy 1918 after 123 years partitioned.
    * Romania, Indy from Ottoman Empire 1877
    * Slovakia, Czechoslovakia, Indy from Austria-Hungary 1918
    * Slovenia, Indy from SFR Yugoslavia in 1991

  43. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Petra says: 27 October, 2017 at 5:31 pm:

    “I don’t know if I just misheard there, or not, but I’m sure a reporter on Sky has just said that Theresa May has stated that the UK won’t recognise Catalan Independence.”

    You heard right but May is not the first leader to say their country will not recognise Catalonia.

    Google Reuters Now and get the news as it breaks.

  44. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    Leanne Wood will ask the Welsh Assembly to recognise Catalonian independence. Well done Leanne.
    Meanwhile a more cautious welcome from the Scottish Government urging dialogue. But at least positive – unlike Westminster.

    Donald Tusk is still on the fence. Has he been sent the statement of the UN Independent Expert on the promotion of a democratic and equitable international order, Alfred de Zayas?

    Denying a people the right to express themselves on the issue of self-determination, denying the legality of a referendum, using force to prevent the holding of a referendum, and cancelling the limited autonomy of a people by way of punishment constitutes a violation of Article 1 of the ICCPR and of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

    http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22295&LangID=E

  45. Jason Smoothpiece
    Ignored
    says:

    Good luck to Catalonia particularly the brave politicians, don’t say that often, shame on the Tories who have behaved as expected.

    Deafening silence from Labour and sadly the union’s.

    I hope Scotland stands with the people of Catalonia.

  46. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    If Wingers cannot get the previous links to Reuters breaking news try this link:-

    http://www.reuters.tv/

  47. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Re. the UK (England’s) Prime Minister’s response to Catalonia’s deceleration of independence. Is it in accordance with international law?

    Self-Determination
    C. Status, Scope, and Content in Contemporary International Law

    12 Both the UN and the majority of authors maintain that the principle of self-determination is part of modern international law. There are indeed good reasons for recognizing its legal character, as after its mere inclusion in the UN Charter the principle has been confirmed, developed, and given more tangible form by consistent State practice and was embodied among ‘the basic principles of international law’ in the Friendly Relations Declaration. The point at issue seems to be to what extent the principle operates as a legal right in contemporary international law and what other—more indirect—legal consequences may be attributed to it.

    1. Self-Determination as a Binding Rule of International Law

    13 Four instances may inform the principle of self-determination with a legal dimension.

    (a) Right to Self-Determination: Instances

    (i) The principle of self-determination is binding upon the parties, whether…..

    http://opil.ouplaw.com/view/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e873

    Territorial Integrity and the “Right” to Self-Determination: An Examination of the Conceptual Tools

    This analysis will illustrate the dichotomy between the right to self-determination and the issue of land rights. In order to retain its legitimacy, international law must reconceptualize the doctrines of territoriality and self-determination. This Article posits that this can be achieved by reconciling the traditional state-centered approach, which views self-determination as an issue about the legitimacy of the state,12 with the human rights approach, which views self-determination’13 as a foundational right on which the edifice of human rights can be built.14

    http://brooklynworks.brooklaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1386&context=bjil

    TERITORIAL INTEGRITY AND SELF-DETERMINATION:
    THE APPROACH OF THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE IN THE ADVISORY OPINION ON KOSOVO

    ABSTRACT
    On 17 February 2008 Kosovo approved its declaration of independence from Serbia. The declaration was raised as a unilateral secession, a category which to date is widely debated by the international community, but supported
    in that case by a respectable number of the United Nation member states. A great many legal issues have been raised by the International Court of Justice’s Advisory Opinion on Kosovo. This opinion was eagerly awaited by legal scholars due to both its possible effects and the scope of its principles outside the context of decolonization in what it could constitute of new approach to the international scenario for the twenty-first century. The ICJ stated that the declaration of independence was in accordance with international law if it was not prohibited. The answer turned on whether or not international law prohibited the declaration of independence, without ever examining whether an entity seeking secession is entitled with a positive right to secede and if so, under which circumstances.

    The basic issue can be summarised as whether or not we are facing a new course in the interpretation of certain classical categories of international law: the principle of territorial integrity, statehood, sovereignty, recognition, the right to external self-determination, etc. In this study we shall analyse some of the aspects arising from the Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice on the Accordance with international law of the unilateral declaration of independence in respect of Kosovo focusing on the territorial issue. Firstly we shall analyse the scope of the principle of territorial integrity of States and how it operates; secondly, we shall focus on the scope of that principle in relation to the interior of the State, and ask ourselves how international law operates in relation to declarations of independence. Lastly, we shall deal with the principle of respect for territorial integrity in the specific case of Serbia with respect to Kosovo, and then end with a series of general conclusions. This study aims, definitely, to contribute to the theoretical debate on the challenges to the traditional certainties of international law in this area.

    http://presidencia.gencat.cat/web/.content/ambits_actuacio/transicio_nacional/iea/Publicacions/REAF/REAF-articles/REAF-16-octubre-2012/_reaf16_urrutia.pdf

  48. Dorothy Devine
    Ignored
    says:

    Well done Catalonia!
    May your God keep you safe.

  49. Justin Fn minty
    Ignored
    says:

    Very slick chick at 4.57

  50. Legerwood
    Ignored
    says:

    Capella says:
    27 October, 2017 at 6:28 pm
    Leanne Wood will ask the Welsh Assembly to recognise Catalonian independence. Well done Leanne.
    Meanwhile a more cautious welcome from the Scottish Government urging dialogue. But at least positive – unlike Westminster.
    …………………..

    Just watched Reporting Scotland on this…I know, I know….where they stated several time that the Scottish Government had taken a position on Catalonian independence that was diametrically opposite to Westminster’s position.

    Of course they never once mentioned what the SG position was. Therefore I read Fiona Hyslop’s statement. Very measured and dignified and at the moment, spot on But that is not the impression RS was giving.

    What a shower

  51. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    The US government doesn’t recognize Catalonia’s declaration of independence?!?

    Short memories surely?

  52. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Nothing yet but cant wait to hear what Orange Hitler has to say about Catalonia, as Leader of the free world.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

  53. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Legerwood – the BBC are very coy about the Scottish Government/ Fiona Hyslop statement. They end their website report by claiming that the majority of Catalans are against independence – 41% for and 49% against.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41781241

    On the other hand, they are ignoring Leanne Wood’s call for recognition.
    http://talkradio.co.uk/news/catalan-independence-plaid-cymru-leader-leanne-wood-urges-wales-recognise-new-country

  54. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    C4 teatime tory news, physically shaking in Barcelona, trying to talk up civil war. Ah the britnat tory freak show really is stretched to its limit today.

  55. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    yesindyref

    Here’s an archived link to the New York Times.

    http://archive.is/ShyWp

    Going directly almost cut my laptop’s throat.

    So sadly I wont risk checking out the comments.

    Would be interesting to know what reaction – if any – is coming out of the USA’s significant Hispanic population.

    Petra 5.46

    Surely an SNP representative wouldn’t have passed up that open goal.

  56. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    Colonel Blimp, in between munching some cakes, demands pro-indy Catalonians get on with their day job.

  57. Hamish100
    Ignored
    says:

    Good luck to the good people of Catalonia.

    self determination is the way and the natural order.

    Apologies about the right wing apologist from the tories in the UK.

    Let the Scottish Government support the Catalonians. Watch labour support the tories.

  58. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Well Orange Hitler has got up. He’s tweeting on US opioid addiction.

    Donald J. Trump?Verified account @realDonaldTrump 2m2 minutes ago

    We are inspired by the stories of everyday heroes who pull their communities from the depths of despair through leadership and love.

  59. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    From before the Catalonian Referendum –

    Is the USA view one that sees Catalonia as the equivalent of an American state wanting to leave the Union?

    Page 1

    http://archive.is/FY3s9

    Page 2

    http://archive.is/dEWTH

  60. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    How many people living in Barcelona and Catalonia are from other areas of Spain?

  61. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Re. the USA’s refusal to recognise Catalonia’s declaration of independence. Poor show but totally expected. Colonialist tend to view the world in a restrictive and totalised manner.

    Freedom beyond the threshold: self-determination, sovereignty, and global justice

    Abstract
    In current debates about global justice, statist and nationalist theories appeal to the right to self-determination in argument against egalitarianism beyond borders, and in general as a reason for caution about substantive international duties of justice, lest the exercise of self-determination would be too tightly constrained. Has self-determination—an important heritage of decolonization—no longer a role to play in the argument against international inequality and disempowerment?

    In this article, I examine a dominant interpretation of self-determination in the global justice debate, as defended prominently by John Rawls and David Miller and find it wanting. Specifically, two challenges are raised: at the conceptual level this interpretation leaves unclarified the distinction and relationship between sovereignty and self-determination; at the normative level, this interpretation adopts a sufficiency view of international distributive justice that neglects that problem of relative extents and measures of self-determination, beyond the threshold. While the article’s argument is mainly of a critical scope, it is suggested that a more robust theoretical account is required of the content of the right of self-determination, and in particular of the freedoms that the right confers to the right-holders in the socioeconomic domains and their extents.

    … no contemporary norm of international law has been so vigorously promoted or widely accepted—at least in theory—as the right of all peoples to self-determination. Yet the meaning of that right remains as vague and imprecise as when it was enunciated by President Woodrow Wilson and others at Versailles.1

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3402/egp.v8.24446

    THE NORM OF SELF-DETERMINATION, 1941-1991

    ABSTRACT

    Based on historical research in the U.S. archives, the article demonstrates that the normative principle of self-determination passed into customary international law through the August 1941 Atlantic Charter, which (1) is currently listed by the U.S. as an extant treaty, and as an appendix to the January 1942 Declaration by the United Nations, (2) was frequently stated in wartime diplomatic exchanges and public pronouncements as the basis for allied commitments and conduct, (3) was relied on by leaders, populists and dependent peoples worldwide, (4) was the basis for planning for today’s global order (including the U.N. systems for non-self-governing and trust territories), (5) was regarded as normative by severalcontemporary scholars, and (6) has been formally invoked, e.g., in relation to the 1954 Pacific Charter.The Atlantic Charter’s valued principle of “humanitarian universalism” is immanent in its function as a norm benefitting colonial and other peoples forcibly deprived of their human rights or sovereignty. The backdrop is the literature on the post-1945 origins of the U.N. and general “right” of self determination.

    http://scholarlycommons.law.cwsl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1395&context=cwilj

    Settling Self-determination Conflicts: Recent Developments

    Abstract

    Self-determination conflicts outside the colonial context have previously appeared virtually impossible to settle. Long-running and very destructive internal armed conflicts have been the result. Since the termination of the Cold War, however, there has been a veritable wave of self-determination settlements. While some of these trade the claim to secession for internal autonomy in order to safeguard the territorial unity of the state, a number of innovative solutions have been adopted, going beyond this traditional approach. This article reviews over 40 settlements and draft settlements in order to identify an emerging post-modern pattern of practice of settling self-determination disputes. The article also assesses the impact of this practice on the classical, restrictive understanding of the doctrine of self-determination.

    https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/20/1/111/444727/Settling-Self-determination-Conflicts-Recent

  62. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    EU top dogs not having any of it at all.

    Guy Verhofstadt
    5 mins ·
    Facebook Mentions
    ·
    I don’t recognize the “fake independence” as it is based on a referendum that was not only not constitutional, but lacked fundamental democratic legitimacy.

    It’s now time to stop this march of the folly. The political parties in Catalonia must urgently come to the table to heal the cruel fracture that has been created in the Catalan society.
    We hope that the Spanish government will continue to do everything possible to initiate an open and inclusive process.

  63. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Have just watched short footage on a tweet from CatalunyaRadio which appears to show it under assault from anti-indy crowd approx half an hour ago.

    Can’t verify…

  64. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    Headtracker 7.20

    There’s a reason why the Republicans don’t have a “hang them flog them’ approach to the opiod epidemic.

    As Sam Quinones magnificent book “Dreamland” makes clear, addiction spread so deeply into Republican heartlands, they had no choice but abandon their hard line stance.

    Quinones’ reporter blog is also worth a read.

    http://samquinones.com/reporters-blog/

  65. Tinto Chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    “How many people living in Barcelona and Catalonia are from other areas of Spain?”

    Hard to quantify, Dan, but many, many thousands were encouraged in the 60s and 70s to emigrate there from the rest of Spain. You could regard it simply as economic migration, or, if you were cynical, to see it as long-sighted Spanish colonialism, just as its teaching methods in Valencia have diminished knowledge of Catalan in the last 20 years (see WGD), to the benefit of Spanish.

    In the Scottish Dimension, think UKOKian colonialism in The Borders, Perthshire, Aberdeen, O&S, und so weiter.

    Think Nana had a good link recently to the Spanish situation, but I don’t have it any more.

  66. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    heedtracker,

    “Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, do you post comments in The Guardian? Are they published?

    Used to Rock. I used to subscribe to Graun for more years than I care to etc… But I got blocked about 3 months before Scots ref1.”

    In my humble opinion, it would be a good idea for you to completely boycott The Guardian.

    If it blocked you, why don’t you block it?

    After all, you now have the “independence supporting” The National.

  67. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    I wonder who originally came up with the Unionist argument that if you don’t vote for something you voted against it by not voting

    I remember when they tried to count my deceased father as a no voter in the devolution referendum

    It’s no wonder the common man/woman gets irritated by those folk who tell us what we want when most of the time we were never asked the question

    In Scotland we have Willie Rennie who excels at that
    Never met him but he knows what I want

    It’s a special Unionist politician gift/talent/crap/big fat lie

  68. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    @Tinto Chiel7:52pm

    Thanks, Tinto Chiel. I wonder if Madrid will bus more in, ken, just to liven things up for the foreign media?

  69. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    300 Fascists attacking Catalan Radio. Breaking glass – people cannot get out.

  70. Phronesis
    Ignored
    says:

    EU leaders must show dignity and strength in leadership,support the citizens of Catalonia and support democracy

    ‘the Spanish Constitutional Court is reducing the legal doctrine of the Rule of Law that is foundational for liberal democracies (that is, law that upholds the supremacy of unconditional and universal basic rights in freedoms) to the doctrine of the ‘rule by law’ practiced in dictatorships.
    Moreover, the Spanish Constitution makes a mockery of the Rule of Law by equating it to the will of the people (The Constitution pledges to “consolidate a State of Law which ensures the rule of law as the expression of the popular will”.) The ‘will of the people’ is the mechanism of enacting popular sovereignty – that is, it serves democracy. The Rule of Law safeguards citizens from the abuse of power by making certain rights and freedoms unconditional and inalienable – that is, it serves freedom. When freedom is placed at the mercy of ‘the people’ the liberal in ‘liberal democracy’ dies…

    It is the systematic abuse of power by the central Spanish authority, under the guise of protecting a democratic Constitution, that is triggering the sense of injustice now fuelling the quest for Catalan independence – this quest is driven by a desire for decent political rule, not nationalist fantasies. As the Catalan Premier put it, “We are not criminals, we are not mad. We are normal people, and we just want to vote.”
    The quest for independence will subside only once the abuse of power stops. This is what Mariano Rajoy would do if he were to act as a statesman whose goal is to stabilise Spain as a pluralist liberal democracy based on the consent of all Spaniards.
    However, he has chosen to act as a politician instead – a leader of the nationalist People’s Party which came to power on the platform of suppressing Catalan autonomy’

    https://www.socialeurope.eu/taking-spanish-government-law

  71. Greannach
    Ignored
    says:

    Wondering if the British nationalists will still adore Rajoy when he takes Gibraltar back.

  72. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @heedtracker says: 27 October, 2017 at 7:03 pm

    “Nothing yet but cant wait to hear what Orange Hitler has to say about Catalonia, as Leader of the free world. “

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

    What?
    Where
    When did that free World thingy happen?

    I must have missed it – did it last for long, heedtracker?

  73. PictAtRandom
    Ignored
    says:

    Finland preparing to recognise Catalonia.

    From the tired and confused Express — but I hope it’s true.

  74. Tinto Chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    Dan: you ain’t seen nothing yet, I’m afeared.

    Verhofstadt’s tweet via Heedtracker shows us what we’re all up against when we choose the wrong kind of democracy.

    The Big Countries don’t want wee diddy countries fecking up their nice wee cartel, it seems. It’s like when The Great Powers thought they could carve up Europe and Africa between them in the 19th century.

    The sight of them supporting neo-fascist Guardia Civil whacking grannies and women is not edifying.

    The EU Project looks based on utter hypocrisy and force majeur at the moment.

    Tell me I’m wrong, technocrats…

  75. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Congratulations to the Republic of Catalonia and to the 70 out of 135 MPs who voted Yes to an independent republic.

    Although they will be crushed by the fascist Spanish state while the EU, UN and NATO look on.

    Only 620 years to go before “sovereign” Scotland declares independence.

  76. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    PictAtRandom,

    “Finland preparing to recognise Catalonia.”

    The “sovereign” Scottish parliament should do the same.

    Nicola should ask Saint Theresa for permission to do it.

  77. Alex Clark
    Ignored
    says:

    Ignore the halfwit and don’t allow yourself to become angry with the prick. It’s what he seeks most of all.

  78. Bob p
    Ignored
    says:

    Rjs 5.56pm.im certainly having second thoughts on the eu over this. I’ve always been solid pro EU. The greek scenario caused me to waiver slightly,but if they sit on the fence here,then f**k em. I want nothing to do with them period.

  79. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    @PictAtRandom.

    There was a guy on Sky news earlier saying Finland Serbia and some Nordic countries talking about recognising Catalunia as an independent republic, so your source is probably correct.

  80. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    Guy Verhofstadt?Verified account @GuyVerhofstadt 43m43 minutes ago

    A “fake independence” is what I call it and I don’t recognize it.

    oh dear, guy, the future of europe is one of many more such smaller states, lombardi, freisland, bavaria, brittany, catalunya etc

    this is the beginning of the end of the old emperialist countries, the eu is backing the wrong horse

  81. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Rock @ every time,

    Go away, you useless dud, and take your personal little rain cloud with you.

    This is a forum for ideas, not a cheapskate encounter group for those with personal psychiatric issues.

  82. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Meg Merrilee’s @ 7.58
    Oh dear can you keep us informed please?
    …………
    Also can anyone get a list of these bloody company’s that have pulled out of Catalonia.
    I want to withdraw my customs if any are trading here.
    ……..
    Really feeling ashamed tonight, we should have paved the way for this 3 year’s ago,and the smarmy MSM would not have anything to put in their so called “news” all the …what ifs,the but but buts, would be answered.
    Good grief even the EU would have had answer’s!
    And the main thing we would not be being portrayed on the so called “news” as a Separatist Region….. Region mind ye!!!
    Of the UK.
    But rather as an ancient European people’s who re organized their government according to their needs….. No their neighbours needs, their need’s…..
    Ah well good luck Catalonia X

  83. Jock McDonnell
    Ignored
    says:

    Whatever ones view on the Catalonia situation to this point, yessers now have to hope this republic is entrenched.
    Like brexit, we need it to happen.

  84. mike d
    Ignored
    says:

    Theresa May says the ‘UK’doesnt recognise catalonia..Nicola embarrass her now. Tell the world that Scotland does. Thatll have them frothing at the mouth,and propel us into the spotlight.

  85. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Me @ 8.34
    Or rather I should say….
    Good luck to …The Independent Republic of Catalonia…..

  86. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @heedtracker says: 27 October, 2017 at 7:39 pm:

    “EU top dogs not having any of it at all.”

    I’m a lifelong supporter of Europe and I lived through WWII.

    I supported the original European idea and I supported the current EU.

    A few days ago I posted on Wings that the EU, Council of Europe and the UN must all come out and support the Catalans or they all must lose their entire raison dêtre.

    It now looks very like the EU are setting themselves up to lose the United Kingdom including the majority of Scots who are presently joint, Scottish, UK and EU citizens who wish to remain as EU citizens. Also those Catalans who are also joint Catalan, Spanish and EU citizens.

    If the EU exists to protect and defends its citizens but fails to do so it only indicates it sees its raison dêtre is to defend the organisation and not the citizens. It thus fails to uphold its own rules of Self determination but also its signatures on the same rules as stated by the Council of Europe and the UN that the EU signed up to. As indeed has the UK Parliament and the Government of Spain.

    We must now ask the Council of Europe to not only support the Catalans right to freedom of self determination but bring pressure to bear upon Spanish Government the EU, the USA and the UK government to respect their signatures upon the Council of Europe’s and UN treaties that they signed up to.

    As it stands the EU most certainly looks like it will lose the UK but need not lose both Kingdoms of the bipartite UK. They must persuade Spain to accept the Catalan right to self determination or expel Spain as a member state but could retain Catalonia. Furthermore, by throwing away the EU’s raison dêtre the EU puts itself in great danger of total disintegration.

    Somehow I seem to have gone very much against the whole concept of a European Union that not only fails its own citizens but has not the courage of its own convictions that all identifiable groups are entitled to the freedom of self determination.

    If they can ignore such a basic principle that they themselves instigated – what next will they ignore?

    The concept of buildings with foundations built upon sand springs to mind.

  87. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    Sorry jock, but that is nonsense.

    The SG have a 100% LEGAL mandate to hold a referendum.

    There are ZERO “constitutional” barriers to prevent us holding a referendum.

    This is another example of the complete difference between the 2 situations, and is exactly why the SG nor right minded indy supporters have conflated the 2.

  88. Bob p
    Ignored
    says:

    Surprised kosovo wont recognise catalonia,as apparently spain dont recognise kosovo. Watch this space??

  89. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Catalonia On This Momentous Day

    A brief history and its rejection of Franco’s old constitution: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-kOl

  90. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Catalan radio evacuated

  91. Tinto Chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    Mr P: as a long-term believer in the EU, like yourself, I feel the foundations now seem to be of the bricks-without-straw variety.

    This is a huge test of their project. If other, “peripheral” states are beginning to mutter in support of Catalunya, then, the whole edifice may start to rock.

    I looked to the EU to be our guarantor and friend in our struggle with WM.

    Frankly, now I’m dubious.

  92. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Mike D

    Nicola has come out in support of Catalonia
    ‘ we respect position …people of Catalonia must have the ability to determine own future”

    Scottish government official statement.
    https://news.gov.scot/news/statement-on-catalonia-1?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn&utm_source=Twitter

  93. Sinky
    Ignored
    says:

    Despite this era of social media we should never underestimate the power of mainstream TV output.

    One of the main differences between Cataluyna’s campaign for self determination and Scotland is that the Catalans can get their news via local public service TV stations which do not follow Madrid’s agenda.

    Given the pre broadcast publicity, next week’s BBC TV Question Time from Kilmarnock has two representatives from the third placed party in Scotland (Kezia and Owen Jones) but no SNP politician. This is the BBC’s vision of political balance.

    Having the promise of a secondary TV channel is no substitute for a Scottish controlled channel one which is answerable to the Scottish Parliament just as BBC is answerable to Westminster.

  94. Effijy
    Ignored
    says:

    Congratulations to the independent republic of Catalonia!

    The Spanish are making ready to stop all pro independence
    media outlets, press, TV, and Radio.
    Freedom of speak and democracy is to be crushed by fascists.

    Scotland can never experience this as we have never been allowed any form of balanced view from UK Media.

    Just a hand full of signatures required to reach 93,000
    on the petition against BBC Bias!

    https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

  95. Welsh Sion
    Ignored
    says:

    Liz g says:
    27 October, 2017 at 8:34 pm
    Meg Merrilee’s @ 7.58
    Oh dear can you keep us informed please?
    …………
    Also can anyone get a list of these bloody company’s that have pulled out of Catalonia.
    I want to withdraw my customs if any are trading here.

    _______

    Dunno how accurate CNN is or how up to date … but here’s your starter for 10.

    http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/09/investing/spain-catalonia-banks-companies-independence/index.html

    PS I’m keeping my ears open to hear what my two lady bosses – Nicola and Leanne are saying.

  96. Jock McDonnell
    Ignored
    says:

    @geeo – nothing I have said disputes that

  97. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    Good article from Craig Murray on Catalonia and the connection with Germany.

    Madrid prefers its elections rigged. Albert Rivera, leader of Rajoy’s coalition partners Ciudadanos, admitted it explicitly, saying that elections in Catalonia must only be held when the government can guarantee the result.

    This is no surprise as Ciudadanos and Mr Rivera have only the most tenuous link to democracy. It is well known to everyone in senior diplomatic and intelligence circles of the major Western powers, that Ciudadanos originated as a highly successful astroturf operation, funded and organised by the German overseas security service, the BND.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/10/misdirection-and-catalonia/comment-page-1/#comments

  98. Pacman
    Ignored
    says:

    The Scottish parliament does not represent a sovereign nation and does not have the legal right to recognise another sovereign nation succeeding from another an already established one.

    However, it does the moral right to support the right of any people to form itself into a sovereign nation as long as that majority of the people in that nation chooses to.

  99. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @schrodingers cat says: 27 October, 2017 at 8:29 pm:

    “Guy Verhofstadt?Verified account @GuyVerhofstadt 43m43 minutes ago
    A “fake independence” is what I call it and I don’t recognize it.”

    Fortunately the EU parliament is not only democratic but consensual. No matter what such as Guy Verhofstadt says the EU parliament must vote upon such matters and it does not rely upon a simple majority. If just one member state thinks the opposite of Verhofstadt then his personal wishes, or his vote, will count for nothing.

    There is now absolutely no more doubt that the EU is now in grave danger of complete disintegration and that danger lies 100% with those who, at the moment, hold responsible positions of power.

    EU matters are not for the personal opinions and wishes of those that are appointed to positions of power but for the member states in consensus. If that consensus is not respected the EU is dead in the water and holed below the waterline.

    The EU have laws of Freedom of Self determination and have signed treaties with the Council of Europe and the UN. The UN has already made a statement in favour of Catalan Self Determination and the EU signed up as UN members. The EU has now, thanks to Verhofstadt just put itself up as an Aunt Sally and I’ve no doubt there will be a queue of members states to take a shy at the EU.

    As you correctly say, “this is the beginning of the end of the old emperialist countries, the eu is backing the wrong horse.

  100. PacMan
    Ignored
    says:

    Just a thought.

    In a hypothetical future EU structure, could small nations formed out of big ones like Scotland and Catalonia be able to co-exist with the existing big ones like France and Germany whose vision and outlook of Europe is broadly similar?

  101. cearc
    Ignored
    says:

    The government of The Gambia have officially recognised Catalonia.
    First to do so.

    https://twitter.com/MFAGambia/status/923985326691020800

  102. mike d
    Ignored
    says:

    Meg merrilees 9.08pm. Glad to see that meg.

  103. Alex Clark
    Ignored
    says:

    The EU have really made a mess of this. Doesn’t matter if the’re working behind the scenes they should have been upfront and foremost in the first place.

    This was all very predictable, yet there are those who will not see. That’s the like of Tusk who “hopes” dialogue can take place or Verhofstadt who “hopes” that

    “the Spanish government will continue to do everything possible to initiate an open and inclusive process.”#

    Seriously these people are definitely not our friends, we’re on our own. Fine we don’t need them as we are well capable by ourselves.

  104. Doug Bryce
    Ignored
    says:

    Good luck to Catalonia – they are in for a rocky ride but will secure their freedom.

    2 points

    1) We need to remember the referendum was illegal. Anyone opposed to Catalonian independence simply wouldn’t have voted.

    2) EU. If they got involved then euro-sceptics would rightly accuse them of interfering in sovereign nations affairs.

    Now : The Scottish governments response is balanced and measured. The only acceptable solution in Catalonia is a legal vote to allow the entire nation to decide its own future. This is what neutral commentators must press for.

    Revoking autonomy / unilateral declarations only dig the heels in further from both sides. I think Catalonia have played a astute political game exposing Spanish suppression. However we need to be careful using the terms “democracy” here…

  105. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Members of Catalan government moved from the parliament building to the ‘Government’ building earlier this afternoon – with suitcases. Now holding the first Government meeting of the Catalan Republic.

    Looks like Right wing protestors now attacking a school (university?). Two youths beaten up.

    Guarda Civil not restoring order.

    Reuters photos of the afternoon…
    http://www.ccma.cat/324/expectacio-declaracio-i-celebracio-el-dia-en-les-fotos-de-reuters/noticia/2817732/

  106. Peter
    Ignored
    says:

    I, like indyref2 have posted some comments btl in the New York Times. Swinmming against a mighty tide, sadly.
    It is really rather depressing to see the level of ignorance and indifference in what is a relatively liberal readership.

  107. Welsh Sion
    Ignored
    says:

    Latest from my homeland – as reported on BBC Cymru. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on BBC Wales (Quelle surprise !)

    [Translation mine]

    _______

    Plaid Cymru have asked for a vote in the National Assembly to recognise the independence of Catalunya.

    […]

    The Leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, that she “congratulates” the people of Catalunya on “winning their independence through peaceful and democratic means.”

    The First Minister, Carwyn Jones, has called for “dialogue and diplomacy” to ensure a settlement.

    […]

    “The people of Catalunya have insisted on a democratic path to ensure independence through the ballot box,” said Ms Wood.

    “Plaid Cymru will be calling the National Assembly to recognise the Republic of Catalunya as an independent country.”

    […]

    Plaid Cymru also called on the EU to “support dialogue.”

    […]

    The Leader of UKIP in Wales, Neil Hamilton said that the EU is “the enemy” because of their “passive support of the Spanish Government.

    He added: “I believe in the United Kingdom, but the people of Wales have the democratic right to choose their own political future.”

    “Catalunya deserves the same.”

  108. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    As others have commented, “The EU” appears to be backing “states”, rather than the right of self-determination of “peoples”.

    And as others have commented, the situation of Scotland is not the same as Catalonia. We are in a “voluntary” union. All it takes is for our people, the nation of Scots, to signal that they wish that union to be ended and that’s it – an independent Scotland.

    Or is that too ‘seemples’?

  109. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    it has been pointed ouyt by many that the eu’s hands are tied wrt catalunya, but recent comments from juncker and especially now guy verhofstadt show them sticking out their necks much further than is necessary

    it is if Guy has just realised that scotland was never his friend, just a useful ally against UKIP, Guy is a Belgian Unionist who has just realised that scotland was only the start of a very large landslide which threatens to engulf the whole of the european old order, including belgium.

    during indyref1, i wondered why it was that across europe, countries which formed 100’s of years previously, all had regions clamouring for their independence at the same time we were.

    Today, watching events unfold in Catalunya, I finally understood why that was.

    It is because now, we can.

  110. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Rajoy calls regional elections for the 21stDec

  111. Alex Clark
    Ignored
    says:

    Offering mediation is not interfering in others affairs. To be honest it’s the only route I can see out of this. Madrid sending in the troops rather than talk will be a disaster.

    Let’s get something straight Catalonia has declared Independence, they are now no longer part of Spain in their eyes. The parliament in Madrid think otherwise and will act. You can be sure of that.

    I support what the Catalonian people have decided and their parliament decision today. Let’s not turn our eyes as they need our support. Most of all they need it now.

  112. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Rajoy to hold elections in Catalonia on the 21 st Dec

  113. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Meg Merrilee’s @ 7.58:

    “Oh dear can you keep us informed please?

    Try Reuters UK main pages:-

    http://uk.reuters.com/news/uk

    Then look at the top left where it says, “Edition: United Kingdom”: followed by a wee down pointing arrow. Click upon that wee arrow and a drop down menu shows all the other editions for other countries and places. Select any language you can understand.

    Alternatively try:-

    http://www.reuters.tv/

    The first bit of video is an advert. This ad is then followed by breaking, rolling, news video reports.

    However, to the left and right side of the video pane there are wee arrows to move back and forward through the reports and they also have the news items in text format.

    As the media available in the UK takes most of its news from Reuters you will get the news at least as quickly as the BBC gets it from Reuters but it will be sans BBC editing, omissions and bias.

  114. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    After not bothering about the EU and its powers for decades, everybody now wants it to do ‘something’ without knowing what it can do.

    The EU does what the countries that make it up allow it to do.

    If people want it to act directly in the internal matters of constituents then they need to get their governments to tell the EU this.

    It is extremely unlikely that there are not private discussions going on. The voters of Spain elected the members of the Madrid government not the voters across the EU or the EU MPs.

    Get involved if you want to change what it does, tho you only have a short time, after which you will be stuck with the degenerates who make up the UK governments.

  115. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Express britnat roasters ever hopeful of the EU domino effect collapse. Neo fascists are pretty predictable.

    “End of EU LOOMS: Catalonia independence to SHATTER bloc as Juncker says ‘cracks’ appearing

    JEAN-CLAUDE Juncker has admitted there were now “more cracks” appearing in the European Union after Catalonia today declared itself independent of Spain.

    By ROSS LOGAN
    PUBLISHED: 20:30, Fri, Oct 27, 2017 | UPDATED: 20:32, Fri, Oct 27, 2017

  116. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    The absolute worse thing about this, is that you just know Uk unionist politicians are desperate for Madrid to crush the Catalans with huge violence, hoping it instills fear of the same possibility if Scotland votes Yes.

    That does not mean i think they (WM) will do the same, they won’t, but seeding the idea they might, may appeal to them.

  117. RogueCoder
    Ignored
    says:

    Folks, I’ve put up a crowdfunder to get 1,000 Catalan flags and put them into the hands of Yes groups before the end of November. Whatever happens with Catalonia in the days and months ahead, they’ll know that Scotland has their backs. Please chuck in a few quid if you can.

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/1-000-flags-for-catalonia/x/6905220#/

  118. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    I worry that Rahoy may not need to do very much – the local fascists and friends are perfectly capable of doing it for him. Dangerous times tonight.

  119. Alex Clark
    Ignored
    says:

    @Brian Powell

    I don’t quite get your argument. What of the voters in Catalan?

  120. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “Somehow I seem to have gone very much against the whole concept of a European Union that not only fails its own citizens but has not the courage of its own convictions that all identifiable groups are entitled to the freedom of self determination.”

    In April you were boasting that “the EU and UN would be on it like a flash” if the UK government didn’t respect the results of Scotland’s “illegal” referendum:

    Robert Peffers (7th April – “Unionist Manifesto Update”):

    “Just let them try and NOT respect the results. The EU and UN would be on it like a flash as the Westminster Government has signed up to both of their treaties that specifically have written into them the human right of Self Determination.”

    Rock,

    “I can say with 100% confidence that the EU and UN would do absolutely nothing that would make us independent in such a scenario.”

    Rock (10th October – “The shoogly peg”):

    “Forget respecting the results, the EU and UN stood by as the fascist Spanish state used brute force to stop Catalonians from voting and stole the ballot papers.

    Has the Spanish Government not “signed up to both of their treaties that specifically have written into them the human right of Self Determination”?

    If you think it would be any different in Scotland, you are badly mistaken.”

  121. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Meg merrilees,

    “Mike D

    Nicola has come out in support of Catalonia”

    Nothing new there.

    Nicola does not have the guts to say that “sovereign” Scotland recognises the independent Republic of Catalonia.

    Or does she need Saint Theresa’s permission to say that?

  122. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    IMHO, the world has taken some giant goose-steps towards becoming a totalitarian dystopia, since I was born in 1968. The Anglo-American New Right are pure poison. True story.

    Popular sovereignty
    Popular sovereignty
    or the sovereignty of the people is the belief that the legitimacy of the state is created by the will or consent of its people, who are the source of all political power. It is closely associated to the social contract philosophers, among whom are Thomas Hobbes, John Locke and Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Popular sovereignty expresses a concept and does not necessarily reflect or describe a political reality.[1] It is often contrasted with the concept of parliamentary sovereignty, and with individual sovereignty….

    ….The American Revolution marked a departure in the concept of popular sovereignty as it had been discussed and employed in the European historical context. With their Revolution, Americans substituted the sovereignty in the person of King George III, with a collective sovereign—composed of the people. Thenceforth, American revolutionaries generally agreed and were committed to the principle that governments were legitimate only if they rested on popular sovereignty – that is, the sovereignty of the people.[6] This idea—often linked with the notion of the consent of the governed—was not invented by the American revolutionaries. Rather, the consent of the governed
    and the idea of the people as a sovereign had clear 17th and 18th century intellectual roots in English history.[7] In the decades before the American Civil War, the term “popular sovereignty” was often used to suggest that residents of U.S. territories should be able to decide by voting whether or not slavery would be allowed in the territory. This concept was associated with such politicians as Lewis Cass and Stephen A. Douglas.
    https://www.saylor.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Popular-sovereignty.pdf

    Democracy, Popular Sovereignty, and Constitutional Legitimacy
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1351-0487.2004.0370.x/abstract

    Popular Sovereignty & Democracy: An Analysis
    https://www.slideshare.net/XahidHasan777/popular-sovereignty-democracy-an-analysis

  123. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Facebook. If Wales would just give her a chance… Wales is hardly smaller than say Denmark.

    Leanne Wood
    6 hrs ·
    I congratulate the Catalan people on gaining their independence through peaceful and democratic means.

    The Catalan people have insisted on a democratic route to achieving independence through the ballot box. They are to be commended for continuing to reject violence even though they have faced brutality from the Spanish State.

    Plaid Cymru will be calling for the National Assembly for Wales to recognise the Catalan Republic as an independent country.

  124. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Heedtracker

    the Valle de Aran ( autonomous region in NW tip of Catalunya, bordering France/Pyrenees and Spain) has released a statement that they want to consider their future apart from Catalonia in light of the Indy declaration – more to come on monday.

    Puigdemont’s party will not observe the Rahoy elections and will not vote in them.

  125. Alex Clark
    Ignored
    says:

    @Rock

    Why do you bother? Your posts are crap and reveal you as just about the saddest individual I’ve ever known. Give it a rest for your sake as well as ours, your well sussed.

  126. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    Great articles in the National again today from Alex Russell on Scotland’s oil, Gregor Young on “60% of oil and gas employers expecting to recruit “significantly” in the next year”, the Labour leadership fiasco, Tory ignorance on what’s reserved / devolved, Andy Wightman on fracking and much more.

    More than anything there are two, 2 page, articles on Catalonia from Greg Russell and Lesley Riddoch, who’s in Barcelona right now.

    Reading Lesley Riddoch’s article clarifies the situation on Catalonia versus Scotland to some extent. Most of which we know already of course. She says, “The fact that Scotland was once an Independent state with it’s own enduring legal system (and no UK written Constitution) also gives our case a credibility Catalonia lacks. But the fact London agreed to a legally binding Referendum matters far more to onlookers outside the UK than I had ever realised before I came to Catalonia to participate in the Barcelona BBC debate.

    It’s clear the Edinburgh Agreement between the UK and the Scottish Government is seen as the International gold standard of dealing properly with Constitutional disputes. The transfer of Section 30 powers made that 2014 vote legally binding – not just advisory – which in turn gave it the validity and authority that prompted the whopping 85% turnout (to Catalonia’s 43%).

    A couple of other points. Professor Ricardo Gosalbo Bono, an EU Constitutional expert, told the BBC Barcelona audience that EU law means regions must comply with the Constitutional arrangements of the member state and other EU members states are NOT free to recognise regions making unilateral declarations of independence. EU treaties will immediately cease to apply to any regions that separate from member states – so an Independent Catalonia wouldn’t be automatically expelled from the EU, unable to trade with it and would be unable to use the Euro. That would add to a perilous economic situation where a thousand companies are said to have relocated their official headquarters out of the region already …”

    There’s much more of course but the bottom line is that we carry on as we have been doing, IMO, and call for a referendum when the Brexit deal is clarified. We’ll have the vast majority of businesses on our side, for one, I’m sure. But more than anything get support from Joe Public to over 50% and with the help of Brexit that shouldn’t be too difficult to do. Catalonia had no alternative other than the route that they have taken. A route, however, to where at the end of the day?

    ………………………..

    @ Yesindyref2 at 5:08pm ……… “There’s a good few reasonable comments on the WP…”

    Nearly 400 when I checked it out and extremely refreshing to see that there’s no foul language being used, swear words or immature name calling of other posters. Maybe they’ve been deleted, but whatever the case, no matter their views, it made for a half-decent civilised read.

  127. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Alex Clark (aka Thepnr),

    “Ignore the halfwit and don’t allow yourself to become angry with the prick. It’s what he seeks most of all.”

    Alex Clark (aka Thepnr),

    “The EU have really made a mess of this. Doesn’t matter if the’re working behind the scenes they should have been upfront and foremost in the first place.”

    Unlike clueless pompous armchair pundits like yourself, the poster whom you refer to as “halfwit” and “prick” can correctly predict events with foresight:

    Rock (19th September – “The warning notice”):

    “The difference is spineless “sovereign” Scots bottled it despite getting a free vote whereas the Catalonians are showing real spine, although they will be crushed by the Spanish state while the EU does little more than make a few noises.”

    Rock (1st October – “Homage To Catalonia”):

    “The fascist Spanish state had been openly preparing this for the last couple of weeks.

    Anyone heard any comment about “democracy” from the EU or UN?

    The EU and UN Establishments are no better than the British Establishment.”

  128. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    Brian Powell
    If people want it to act directly in the internal matters of constituents then they need to get their governments to tell the EU this.

    ——————
    Guy Verhofstadt?Verified account @GuyVerhofstadt 3h3 hours ago

    A “fake independence” is what I call it and I don’t recognize it.
    ——————–

    you dont think this is a direct act in the internal matters of a constituent?

    I know the eu doesnt have any tanks it can send into spain but it does have a tongue in its head

  129. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Alex Clark (aka Thepnr),

    “Seriously these people are definitely not our friends, we’re on our own. Fine we don’t need them as we are well capable by ourselves.”

    Rock (1st October – “Homage To Catalonia”):

    “Anyone seriously believe the EU will come to Scotland’s rescue when the northern British region is crushed by the UK state?”

    Yes, “well capable by ourselves” to be independent in 620 years time at the earliest.

  130. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Tinto Chiel says: 27 October, 2017 at 9:04 pm:

    “Mr P: as a long-term believer in the EU, like yourself, I feel the foundations now seem to be of the bricks-without-straw variety.
    This is a huge test of their project. If other, “peripheral” states are beginning to mutter in support of Catalunya, then, the whole edifice may start to rock.”

    Well, Tinto Chiel, I may be wrong but I still have faith that the EU will survive. I also believe it has just entered a phase of change. Not in the actual rules but of the smaller member states making their presence felt.

    As I have pointed out several times the EU parliament is both democratic and consensual but to date the smaller member states have allowed themselves to be browbeaten to accept things they were none too comfortable with and that was how such as Germany and France more or less got their way.

    However, the EU presidency changes on a, “Buggin’s Turn”, basis and each member state thus gets a turn at the helm as they set the agenda and their leader chairs the EU parliament.

    Thus each smaller nation gains experience and more confidence in itself after their turn at the helm. The other factor is that all member states have a veto but have, in the past, been reluctant to use it. After a Buggin’s Turn though, they become more confident and so the bigger member states can find their big noses put a bit out of joint and it only takes one member state to stop a matter stone dead – or more likely as EU history shows, they compromise.

    Far as I can see there is already a split opening up between those presently holding office and some member states and the UN has already made a statement favourable to Catalonia.

    I do believe that after the initial statements made today sanity will prevail. The facts are quite simple, really.

    The EU is a member, (as are every EU member state), in the Council of Europe. However, the Council of Europe has 47 member states including the EU 28 member states.

    The Council of Europe is the World’s main Human Rights organisation and the World’s main Human rights Court. So every EU member state and the EU itself is signed up to the Council of Europe Human Rights laws. And these are almost identical to those of the UN and thus they are all, including the UK and Spain, signed up to the Council of Europe’s Human Rights Laws.

    I’m almost certain that the Council of Europe will have already made themselves felt by both Spain and the UK. Furthermore, I posted a comment just the other day that listed a great big long list of European groups that are seeking self determination and independence from established European states. Yet state control has seen these groups getting little public exposure just as the SNP is suppressed by the UK.

    The number of independence movements in Europe is far, far larger than is generally recognised but they are now beginning to make their presence felt.

  131. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Quite a few Twitter accounts in Catalunya have copies of today’s photos from ‘The National’.

    Rahoy cannot act until tomorrow, until the Article 155 is published by the Spanish Government. To call tonight for the elections in December is apparently illegal today.

    Arrests of Puigdemont and police chief will have to be implemented by the Courts.

    Spanish gov spokesman on BBC R4 tonight saying that police violence on Oct 1st was false news- only 4 people were injured. Trying to have us believe that everyone has an equal vote in december and if there is a majority for independence, the Spanish gov will acknowledge that, there would have to be discussion and a nationwide (?) referendum .

  132. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    On reflection,sad to say I don’t think Madrid should let Puigdemont away with this affront.

    Never mind unconstitutional.It is botched,uncouth, provocative and borderline criminal in equal order.

    His haircut,that is.

  133. Welsh Sion
    Ignored
    says:

    heedtracker says: @ 10.08 pm

    ________

    I beat you to it, my friend!

    See me @9.36 pm 🙂

  134. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    The government of Catalonia has made it clear that they will continue to use civil disobedience to pursue their cause, and instructed government workers accordingly.

    That should trump any constitutional formalities – GuyV, Tusk and their buddies are gambling that Spain will not use brute force, but they’ve been proved wrong already, sadly wanting when it came to any meaningful condemnation of the aggression.

    If the official reaction to what’s happening in Barcelona right now is any indication of how EU high-heid yins view actual ‘self-determination’ in action, we should be very worried. In any event, we should *never* again assume EU support for Scotland, and be wary of them even when they appear to offer it – their behaviour right now renders them untrustworthy, nay disreputable.

  135. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Pacman says: 27 October, 2017 at 9:16 pm:

    “The Scottish parliament does not represent a sovereign nation and does not have the legal right to recognise another sovereign nation succeeding from another an already established one.”

    No doubt then, Pacman, you can, on request, furnish the legal evidence to prove that Scotland IS NOT, as you claim, A Sovereign Nation?.

    On the other hand I can provide legal proof that Scots are a legally sovereign people and I quote for you, “Article of Union Number 19”, as legal proof of that fact:-

    THAT the Court of Session, or Colledge of Justice, do after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations for the better Administration of Justice, as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that hereafter none shall be named by Her Majesty, or her royal Successors, to be ordinary Lords of Session but such who have served in the Colledge of Justice as Advocates, or principal Clerks of Session for the Space of five Years; or as Writers to the Signet for the Space of ten Years, with this Provision, That no Writer to the Signet be capable to be admitted a Lord of the Session, unless he undergo a private and publick Tryal on the Civil Law, before the Faculty of Advocates and be found by them qualified for the said Office, two Years before he be named to be a Lord of the Session; yet to as the Qualifications made, or to be made, for capacitating Persons to be named ordinary Lords of Session, may be altered by the Parliament of Great Britain. And that the Court of Justiciary do also after the Union, and notwithstanding thereof, remain in all time coming within Scotland, as it is now constituted by the Laws of that Kingdom, and with the same Authority and Privileges as before the Union, subject nevertheless to such Regulations as shall be made by the Parliament of Great Britain, and without Prejudice of other Rights of Justiciary; and that all Admiralty Jurisdictions be under the Lord High Admirall or Commissioners for the Admiralty of Great Britain for the time being, and that the Court of Admiralty now established in Scotland be continued, and that all Reviews, Reductions, or Suspensions of the Sentences in Maritime Cases, competent to the Jurisdiction of that Court, remain in the same Manner after the Union, as now in Scotland, until the Parliament of Great Britain shall make such Regulations and Alterations, as shall be judged expedient for the whole United Kingdom, so as there be always continued in Scotland a Court of Admiralty, such as in England, for Determination of all Maritime Cases relating to private Rights in Scotland competent to the Jurisdiction of the Admiralty Court, subject nevertheless to such Regulations and Alterations as shall be thought proper to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that the Heritable Rights of Admiralty and Vice-Admiralties in Scotland be reserved to the respective Proprietors as Rights of Property, subject nevertheless, as to the Manner of exercising such heritable Rights, to such Regulations and Alterations, as shall be thought proper to be made by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that all other Courts now in being within the Kingdom of Scotland do remain, but subject to Alterations by the Parliament of Great Britain; and that all inferior Courts within the said Limits do remain subordinate, as they are now, to the supreme Courts of Justice within the same, in all time coming; and that no Causes in Scotland be cognoscible by the Courts of Chancery, Queens-Bench, Common-Pleas, or any other Court in Westminster-hall; and that the said Courts, or any other of the like Nature, after the Union, shall have no Power to cognosce, review, or alter the Acts or Sentences of the Judicatures within Scotland, or stop the Execution of the same; and that there be a Court of Exchequer in Scotland after the Union, for deciding Questions concerning the Revenues of Customs and Excises there, having the same Power and Authority in such Cases, as the Court of Exchequer has in England; and that the said Court of Exchequer in Scotland have Power of passing Signatures, Gifts, Tutories, and in other Things, as the Court of Exchequer at present in Scotland hath; and that the Court of Exchequer that now is in Scotland do remain, until a new Court of Exchequer be settled by the Parliament of Great Britain in Scotland after the Union; and that after the Union, the Queen’s Majesty, and her royal Successors, may continue a Privy Council in Scotland, for preserving of publick Peace and Order, until the Parliament of Great Britain shall think fit to alter it, or establish any other effectual method for that end.

    I look forward to reading your proffered evidence in support of your claims. Mind you I will not be holding my breath.

  136. Another Union Dividend
    Ignored
    says:

    All football fans who support self determination should be displaying their Catalan flags at games to-morrow.

  137. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    agree with the point about Puigdemont’s mullet

    as I said earlier, I now know why all of these regions are now clamouring for their independence, It’s because now they can.

    the case in point, catalunya, What can Rajoy actually do? yes he can arrest the parliament etc but he eventually will need to call another election in which even the unionists in catalunya will feel obliged to vote in.

    Had Puigdemont called another election, the unionists could have boycotted it and refused to accept the result.

    Even if rajoy bans all indy supporting parties in catalunya, they can stand under a new yes/si banner with tape over their mouths.

    if the eu wants to keep any credability, it should demand that the vote be scrutinised by international observers. rajoys only way out of this mess is to cheat during the count .

  138. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Rock
    You do appreciate nihilism is a weapon of the New Right?

  139. Welsh Sion
    Ignored
    says:

    Reminding ourselves of the text of Article 155 (in translation).

    Article 155

    1. If a Self-governing Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the general interest of Spain, the Government, after having lodged a complaint with the President of the Self-governing Community and failed to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by the overall majority of the Senate, take all measures necessary to compel the Community to meet said obligations, or to protect the abovementioned general interest.

    2. With a view to implementing the measures provided for in the foregoing paragraph, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Self-governing Communities.

  140. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:
    we should *never* again assume EU support for Scotland, and be wary of them even when they appear to offer it –
    ——————
    agreed, i still remain hopeful that the eu will come out during indyref2 in support of scotland (it was pointed out yesterday on a thread that cos the uk is leaving there is a chance they may do this)

    we should not plan our campaign on the basis that they will do this.
    ergo in indyref2 yes=efta not eu membership

  141. pacman
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert Peffers @ 27 October, 2017 at 10:42 pm

    Scotland, as your definition of a sovereign nation, at this very moment in time, can send every diplomatic pressure it can bring as an independent sovereign nation to help the situation in Catalonia?

  142. Gary45%
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian Brotherhood@10.40.
    You hit the nail on the head, it seems each passing day the EU is starting to sport the “headless chicken” routine.
    I still say I am a EuroScot, but I think the next 48 hours will be the vision of what the EU really is.
    If and its a big IF, Rahoy goes in with the Franco play book again, and the EU stand back and do FK all in the blatant abuse of EU citizens, then the EU is finished.
    No surprise Westminster are doing FK all as they have FK all clue about anything.

  143. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @PacMan says: 27 October, 2017 at 9:21 pm:

    “Just a thought. “

    Aye! And just a thought that needs more thought.

    Before going any further, Pacman, perhaps you could enlighten Wingers of who the just retired as the EU’s Member State was?

    On second thoughts I think I had better tell you. It might save a little time and effort. It was little Malta and thus Malta provided the last EU President. Little Malta has just been replaced by Italy and so the new EU president is Antonio Tajani.

    Note that the EC President is a Commissioner. i.e. he/she is a paid for Civil Servant of the EU and has no decision making powers.

    The EU presidency is changed on a regular basis by, “Buggin’s Turn”, and the country chosen provides the EU President who chairs and sets the agenda for the EU parliament. Every member state gets it’s Buggin’s Turn.

    Remember that the EC is the EU’s Civil Service and has no decision making powers. Not only that but every EU Member state has a veto over EU parliamentary decisions. So unless they all agree to something it doesn’t happen.

    So unless there has been an actual vote and decision in the EU parliament any claims, (made by anyone), that is not an official EU statement is a personal opinion. As are non-official claims by any EC commissioner.

  144. Legerwood
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    27 October, 2017 at 10:42 pm
    @Pacman says: 27 October, 2017 at 9:16 pm:

    “The Scottish parliament does not represent a sovereign nation and does not have the legal right to recognise another sovereign nation succeeding from another an already established one.”

    No doubt then, Pacman, you can, on request, furnish the legal evidence to prove that Scotland IS NOT, as you claim, A Sovereign Nation?.

    On the other hand I can provide legal proof that Scots are a legally sovereign people and I quote for you, “Article of Union Number 19”, as legal proof of that fact:-
    ……………………

    It is late and I am tired but I have read the copy of Article 19 that you posted, twice, but cannot see where it says the people of Scotland are sovereign or in any way provides the legal proof that you claim for it.

    Perhaps you could elaborate on your reasons for thinking that Article 19 provides legal proof that the people of Scotland are sovereign.

  145. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    Indyref 2? = EU this? EFTA that?
    What are youz on about?

    It’s about being independent first and foremost, nothing else.

    THEN, ‘we’ decide how ‘we’ should manage our affairs and what tone to take with ‘our’ trading partners and blocs.

  146. stewartb
    Ignored
    says:

    schrodingers cat @ 10:58 pm and Ian Brotherhood

    “we should *never* again assume EU support for Scotland, ….”

    “we should not plan our campaign on the basis that they will do this.”

    I am strongly of the view that the proposition in IndyRef2 must reduce to a minimum – and handle very carefully in campaigning – any reliance on ‘big issue’ matters that are in the gift of (unreliable or hostile) third parties. We must learn from the way our opponents exploited the ‘currency union’ and the use of Sterling in 2014.

  147. birnie
    Ignored
    says:

    Just watching Catalonian TV discussion programme with clips from outside reporters – sadly, now pictures of anti-independence thugs beating up people and breaking into buildings, then shaking hands with onlooking Guardia Civil.

  148. cirsium
    Ignored
    says:

    Catalonia needs to go to the UN, not the EU. The UN Charter is quite clear that the decision on self-determination does not require the approval of the supreme authority of a country. I think it was Nana who posted a link to the comments from the UN Human Rights Office of High Commissioner http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22295&LangID=E

    Guy Verhofstadt was a founding member of the Spinelli Group of the European Parliament. The Spinelli Group is against nationalism and intergovernmentalism (the notion that states and national governments are the primary actors).

  149. John H.
    Ignored
    says:

    The EU will show support for Scottish self determination for as long as it suits them politically. We should realise that when the chips are down, we are on our own. If we have any real friends then they are in Scandinavia, and I believe that’s where we should look to in future.

    I should add, that you will find your visit here much more enjoyable if you skip over Rock’s comments. He seems to be upsetting some people again tonight, which of course is his intention…if he has one.

  150. defo
    Ignored
    says:

    Well, that’s me boycotting Spanish stuff.
    Easy to do, but if enough people do, and make enough noise about doing…
    Next FMQ’s, someone needs to propose giving full recognition to Catalonia, and then we’ll see the fur fly 😉

  151. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    stewartb

    agree totally

    same reasoning behind my support for the pound scots rather than a currency union, not because this is necessarily the best option for a newly independent scotland but because it doesnt require 3rd party agreement.
    last time we handed the unionists an open goal with this issue, and that of eu membership

    not in indyref2

  152. Richard Duncan
    Ignored
    says:

    Good luck Catalonia,

    few will remember the complete hash the EU nations made in Yugoslavia in the 90’s .

    Red tape and constant bickering among members on what to do gave us the slaughter not seen in Europe since WW2. Troops deployed had no orders and watched helplessly as cities were destroyed with huge casualties.

    The US eventually go fed up with the EU they bombed a few bases and peace was restored in months.

    I fear Spain could go the same way. The EU have no real power because it was designed that way . The Spanish are willing to use militia and someones gonna die and boom ……

    WE’re looking to the wrong ones for help in Europe , it;s too close to home . The UN or NATO should step in now . As someone already mentioned above there are many “Unionists” in the EU . They will stall and huff and puff and people will be hurt and their rights walked over .

    We Scots are in a totally different position i know but this gives us an insight in to mechanisms of the EU and what it stands for . Spain can make or break them make no mistake this is dangerous ground.

    Fellow Wingers please keep us informed of the comings and goings . I wont watch TV any more . Strangely wonder why i ever watched it . The lies are drip fed on every channel .

    You guys are my news sources . 🙂

  153. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    @Guy Verhofstadt
    Might I remind you of your own manifesto? Do I need to remind you of the need for democracy to reflect popular sovereignty, in order to be democratic? Forgotten that self-determination is an inalienable human right?

    MANIFESTO
    For the renewal of European Democracy
    BY
    GUY VERHOFSTADT

    Europe is in crisis. From our persistent economic difficulties and the refugee crisis to the multiple terrorist attacks on European soil. Europe always reacts
    too little, too late.

    A lack of leadership arises from a more fundamental problem: a European Parliament that is often reduced to following the Commission and the Council. We need to break with the uninspired ‘grand coalition’ that governed the Parliament for too long and instead become the main European policymaker. Citizens expect real solutions from us. This means, amongst other things, a sizeable border and coast guard, a European anti-terror capacity and renewed investments in our economy.

    Let there be no misunderstanding; the Union of the future will not be a European superstate. It is in fact the opposite. A more effective and more integrated Union will better protect our cherished European diversity: in languages, in cultures, in traditions, in ways of life. The Parliament must be at the forefront of this.

    http://alde.eu/uploaded/manifesto_for_the_renewal_of_european_democracy.pdf

  154. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ defo – you can buy Estrella beer. It’s made in Barcelona. I have some cooling in the fridge as we speak.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrella_Damm

  155. defo
    Ignored
    says:

    Re. Developments. Would it be unfair to conclude that the EU (& EC) is utterly corrupted, as are most, if not all of the constituent member governments, nay Western governments, the entirety of the tired old MSM, and basically any other sentient, rational human who fails to see the affront to democracy that is Fascist Spain’s bullying disenfranchisement of the Catalonian people ?
    If you tolerate this…

  156. meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Finland and Argentina have announced that they intend to recognise Catalonia tomorrow.

    Thousands of ‘Unionists’ marching through Barcelona just now. Including elected councillors of opposition parties.
    Shouting re ‘the Mossos” these Police do not represent us.

    https://twitter.com/hashtag/AlertaUltra?src=hash
    some up to date reports on this page, showing Catalans pacifist – Spaniards violent.

    Julian Assange urging Americans to support Catalunya – help them win their independence.

  157. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    Yes, SC,
    Keeping the debate realistic is crucial.

    Lot of people mistake EU leaders with the EU itself.

    Instead of blaming the EU, look at those individual nations, Spain, England, Italy, France even Germany. The old guard are spooked, closing ranks. Identity cannot be faked indefinitely. Hegemony stinks.

  158. John H.
    Ignored
    says:

    A nostalgic Johnny Rotten on BBC4 a few minutes ago. Paraphrasing “A lot of people banned the Sex Pistols in the seventies. The worst one was the Lord Provost of Scotland.”
    Geez!

  159. defo
    Ignored
    says:

    Gave up the swally Capella, but ta anyway.
    Hope you enjoy your boycott friendly Estrella.
    I doubt my poison was grown within a thousand miles of Madrid, so i’m sorted.
    More likely to have made the trip from a loft somewhere in the Lothians 😉

  160. Joemcg
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert Peffers we have covered this before. Scotland has no sovereign powers.The Supreme Court overruled any Scottish say on article 50 back in January.

  161. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Bearing in mind what’s happened in ‘Spain’ today, this wee snippet should be noted.

    Aside from any constitutional relevance it may have, it helps explain why Rennie is such a pure-gemmy gallus wee fanny – he knows he has ‘nothing’ to lose.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmx-KBTs-Ks

  162. Hamish100
    Ignored
    says:

    Oil $60 a barrel.

    It is the SNP’s fault.

    I see old Jeremy is at the pro Brit unite conference in Glasgow, no mention of the lies by his team on the shipyards during the days of the vow.

    Will he support the Spanish fascists? Of course

  163. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ defo – whatevva 🙂 – just sayin there are Catalan products which might be highly sought after now, so long as they are not made by companies which moved out of Catalonia.

  164. pacman
    Ignored
    says:

    Scotland, at the moment isn’t as a sovereign nation, nor is Catalonia or any of the any other ones that is wanting to become one in the near future.

    It would be unwise to give up on Europe, just because situations at the moment isn’t right. Whether the powers to be at the moment like it or not, the future is a Europe of devolved power. The question is do we turn our backs on Europe because of temporary setbacks at this moment?

  165. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    louis.b.argyll says:

    The old guard are spooked,
    ————————–

    yes they are. today scotland made many friends across europe, but also many enemies with the old guard as you called them

    thing is, verhofstadt wants to see a united states of europe with its own army etc but that hasnt and wont happen with the old guard. the only real chance that verhofstadt will ever see this is by the will of the newly emerging new firm, catalunya, scotland, friesland etc

    he is backing the wrong horse. as you said louis Identity cannot be faked indefinitely.

  166. pacman
    Ignored
    says:

    louis.b.argyll @ 28 October, 2017 at 12:02 am

    Yes, SC,
    Keeping the debate realistic is crucial.

    Lot of people mistake EU leaders with the EU itself.

    Instead of blaming the EU, look at those individual nations, Spain, England, Italy, France even Germany. The old guard are spooked, closing ranks. Identity cannot be faked indefinitely. Hegemony stinks.

    Agreed. The EU in 5 or 10 years time isn’t going to be the same as it now.

    Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish government have more information about the current situation, as well as what is happening in the EU as a whole. Let’s stop playing the games of the wee shites at the British Broadcasting Corporation and trust those at the top who knows what they are doing in getting the best deal for Scotland and other fledging democracies throughout the EU in the coming years.

  167. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    What next in Catalonia?

    Direct oppression,
    civil servants running councils,
    wage-sanctions,
    energy- blockades,
    ethnic cleansing,
    banning of cultural symbols,
    suppression of ideas,
    fascism,
    pogrom,
    war,
    repeat.

    My God, we’re back in the middle-ages folks.

    We’ve learned nothing from the two world wars. Except that the memory, as glorious propaganda, underpins the perpetual controlling interests who need war to keep ‘their’ wretched nations together.

    It’s top class brinkmanship from thecatalans, let’s hope reason prevails.

  168. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @pacman says: 27 October, 2017 at 11:09 pm:

    “Scotland, as your definition of a sovereign nation, “

    Whoa! There, Pacman.

    Just where did I define Scotland as, “a Sovereign Nation”?

    Better still define the term, “Nation”.

    I defined Scotland as legally a sovereign people.

    Here are the actual facts – not as wrongly defined by the Westminster Establishment.

    In 1603 the King of Scotland, who was NOT legally, (under Scots law), a sovereign Monarch, (as per the Internationally legally recognised Declaration of Arbroath). Inherited the crown of the three country Kingdom of England.

    In 1603 while Scots law had changed in 1320 the laws of the Kingdom of England were still that of, “The Divine Right of Kings”. Now under the laws of the Kingdom of England a monarch inheriting the crown of another monarchy just added the new kingdom onto his/her existing kingdom. Thus, under English law the three country Kingdom of England should have legally all become part of the Kingdom of Scotland.

    It did not happen simply because, as James VI was NOT sovereign under Scots law he could not either give away the people of Scotland’s sovereignty nor could he add his English Kingdom to his Scottish Kingdom because he didn’t have sovereignty in Scotland. Monarch is Scotland are Kings/Queens of Scots and the people are sovereign.

    Furthermore, he could not give away England’s sovereignty as English Law had ruled that Sovereignty could not be given away because it legally belongs to the Kingdom – (more of which later).

    So there could not be a legal, “Union of the Crowns”, as is claimed even yet by the English for if there was we would all be Scots. So moving on to 1688 and the English Parliamentarians rebelled against the crown in what they claim was, “The Glorious Revolution”, but which saw the English Parliamentarians depose their legal monarch and replace that monarch with the foreign King Billy & queen Mary of Orange. In fact they invited Mary to be monarch and she refused unless they also appointed Billy as king. Only then did she accept.

    Thing was that in 1688 Scotland was still an independent Kingdom so the decisions of an English Parliament or an English Monarch NOT shared by Scotland so the English parliament’s actions were not legal in Scotland and the Scots went to war to defend Scottish independence – This was called by Westminster as, “The Jacobite Rebellion”, but you cannot rebel against a monarch not your own. This so called Jacobite Rebellion was still being fought almost 40 years AFTER the forced Treaty of Union.

    Anyway, the change in England by the, “Glorious Revolution”, made the Kingdom of England, (3 countries), “A constitutional Monarchy”, but Scotland was still independent until 1706/7 and the forced Treaty of Union so Scotland cannot be a Constitutional monarchy because the Scottish Monarchy is not legally sovereign.

    Which is why there is Article 19 in the treaty of Union and Scots law and English law can never be compatible.

    Scots & English Law are guaranteed as independent in perpetuity even today and under Scottish law the people are still legally sovereign.

    Which highlights the simple fact why the Westminster Establishment continue to use the terms Nation, Kingdom, Country and State as if they all mean the same thing.

    They don’t and the simple truth remains that the Treaty of Union formed a United Kingdom but it did not form a United Country, a United State or a unified anything else other than a United Kingdom that was supposedly going to have a single parliament and the last elected as such Parliament of the Kingdom of England sat and declared itself ended on the last day of April 1707.

    Yet today Westminster runs as the unelected as such parliament of the country of England and uses EVEL to assure no other country can interfere in that unofficial and unelected as such parliament that actually has the temerity to devolve the powers of a de facto parliament of England to the three other UK countries parliaments but – and here’s the truth – the United Kingdom is exactly what it describes itself as – A KINGDOM – and there are only two, equally sovereign, kingdoms as its legal partners.

    There is actually no legal documentation that makes the bipartite United Kingdom other than a bipartite United Kingdom.

    It is, in effect, a political union of two kingdoms that contain between then four countries and three of them are parts of the Kingdom of England but Scotland as either country or kingdom is not legally one of them.

    So there you go – The United Kingdom is legally composed of two equally sovereign kingdoms and Scotland is one of them.

  169. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    Given that some are saying this(Catalunya) is an existential threat to EU disintegration,the UK in supporting what looks like the EU/Franco/German line might manage to wangle a better Brexit deal as an apparent ally.

    This could weaken the case for even holding another indeyref2 anytime soon.

    Olde England has a lucky habit of landing on it’s gout ridden honking feet.

    Not sure how all this might play out for Scotland.

  170. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Joemcg says:28 October, 2017 at 12:03 am:

    “Robert Peffers we have covered this before. Scotland has no sovereign powers.The Supreme Court overruled any Scottish say on article 50 back in January.”

    Awa an bile yer heid.

    The Supreme court is a Westminster dreamt up illegal setup – and you bloody well know that.

  171. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Joemac 12.03
    Reading the Post’s backwards Joe…. But…
    The UK Supreme court said nothing of the kind last year!
    It very very carefully avoided sayin that Scotland had no sovereign power’s.
    It said that currently the decision was Westminster’s and that the Vow couldn’t be enforced in reference to the permanence of Holyrood.
    All this is subject to the law and they can only rule on the law’s that are written at the time….
    They were very careful to say that.
    Should Parliament write other laws ….OR…..the Court be asked to rule on …….DIFFERENT….. laws… I will say that again….. A DIFFERENT LAW/LAW’S…… Law’s which are already written then ye might find that Scotland has her sovereignty and it’s just locked into an old Treaty.
    Dressed up as ACT’S and portrayed as the plaything of the Westminster Parliament.
    The act’s can be changed …of course they can…..
    But never forget that a NEW Treaty is a whole different thing,and they don’t even have anyone to legally sign it.
    The English Parliament is long gone.
    But the real issue is to get a new Treaty ye need tae dump the old one and persuade us tae sign up….
    This they know…… And that’s why ye always hear of new Acts of the Union and a new Union agreement but never a new Treaty.
    Nobody in there right mind either side of the border would present or agree to that shit.
    England would have to give half the power to Scotland and Scotland would have to share her resources, shortly after learning there true value….
    No to mention a few hundred years of experience of being in a treaty with this treacherous Parliament already.!!
    Scotland has her sovereign power’s alright, they are just very cleverly chained….at the moment…. But not for very much longer!!

  172. Valerie
    Ignored
    says:

    @ defo

    Christine McKelvie announced on Twitter she was drafting a motion for Holyrood on recognising Catalonia. She was immediately thanked by George Kerevan, who has campaigned tirelessly since losing his MP position in June.

    I was one of those EU supporters who had badges and avatars since the Brexit vote, which I found more horrendous than Sept. 2014. No more. I felt shocked by their stance to Spain’s voter suppression and violence on 1st October.

    I now feel disgust for Tusk and Verhofstadt, and their statements today. Rank hypocrisy and cowardice from both.

    They can’t stand with Human Rights, ordinary Catalan people?

    Yet, last week, in the wake of the Maltese journalist death by car bomb, Verhofstadt announced that an investigative team was being assembled to address RUMOURS of corruption.

    They intervened on Ireland to tell Apple to repay taxes owed from over generous Corporation tax. Ireland doesn’t want Apple’s money, and is appealing the decision.

    How do those actions sit with not defending the freedom from oppression of the EU citizens of Catalonia?

  173. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    This late lunge to the ignorance-breeding right wing, is a response to a concerted protectionist reflex action from a dying, endangered global establishment.

    England and Spain have run out of Empire.

    Unfortunately, Europe’s left/progressive/ liberal nations ARE STILL IN BED WITH THE BAD BOYS. Soon Europe will catch up with it’s identity. Or we’ll have to change it.

  174. crazycat
    Ignored
    says:

    Re: Presidents in the EU

    There are 3 individual elected presidents, plus a rotating presidency held by a country for 6 months at a time:

    Antonio Tajani became President of the European Parliament in January this year, succeeding Martin Schulz.

    There is also a President of the European Commission, currently Jean-Claude Juncker, and a President of the European Council, currently Donald Tusk.

    These posts should not be confused with Presidency of the Council of the European Union, which is held by a country, not an individual, although the Prime Minister/head of government of the country concerned plays a leading role.

    Malta held that latter presidency from January to June this year, succeeding Slovakia and being succeeded by Estonia. They in turn will pass the presidency on to Bulgaria at the end of December. The rotation is fixed well in advance, but the UK forfeited its turn because of Brexit and there will presumably be alterations to the schedule if additional states join.

  175. Joemcg
    Ignored
    says:

    Liz and Robert, neither of you has disproved that Scotland’s imaginary “sovereignty” actually exists. The brass tacks are that we could not stop article 50. End of. The Supreme Court, an English construct, put us in our place.

  176. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @pacman says: 28 October, 2017 at 12:14 am:

    “Scotland, at the moment isn’t as a sovereign nation, nor is Catalonia or any of the any other ones that is wanting to become one in the near future.”

    Oh! Get real!

    There is no other proof that Westminster as it is being run now has sovereignty over anything other than that Westminster says it is.

    Here is what it amounts to – Westminster commissioned a paper by a couple of what Westminster claimed to be constitutional legal experts. This paper, rather attentively suggested, that the Treaty of Union of 1706/7 had renamed the, (still extant), old Parliament of The Kingdom of England, (that is recorded in Hansard as having sat and would itself up as from the last day of April 1707), as The Parliament of the United Kingdom and had extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland.

    No such event ever happened. The parliament sitting at Westminster on the last day of April 1707 ended and no one has been elected as a Member of the Kingdom of England ever since.

    What sat on the first day of May 1707 was an entirely new United Kingdom Parliament and everyone who has sat in it since is elected as a member of the United Kingdom Parliament.

    What is more there are only two Kingdoms that form the Parliament of the United Kingdom and one of them is the Kingdom of Scotland.

    Thus the Westminster Parliament that divided the United Kingdom parliament up as four countries with Westminster as a de facto parliament of England is totally illegal.

    If you are daft enough to believe as legal everything Westminster tells you then you need some psychological help.

    Here is the proof of that particular pudding and I’m not going to debate further on this point.

    There is absolutely no legitimate proof other than Westminster says so for how this disunited kingdom is now being run.

    No where, in either Scottish or English law, is there even a hint that the Kingdom of Scotland was extinguished.

    Even if it had been then so was the Kingdom of England because the parliament that replaced both is called The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. It is not, and never has been the Parliament of the country of England that thus is devolving English Sovereign powers to Wales, N.I. and Scotland as countries. There are only two signatories to the Treaty of Union and neither are the signatures of countries they are the signatures of the representatives of two, equally sovereign, kingdoms.

    Here is the absolute nonsense as claimed by Mundell:-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OIRUr4R7GQ

  177. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    louis.b.argyll says:

    England and Spain have run out of Empire.

    ———————–
    i’m stealin’ this

    ps, italy has surrendered just in case 🙂

  178. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    Several predictive text error in the above comment. Somehow it has turned itself back upon this computer.

    I’m off to bed so figure it out for yourselves. I’ve listened to more than enough bullshit on the subject of sovereignty from a bunch of fools that I suspect are all either Rock or his/her sock puppets.

  179. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    If the USA is declaring UDI illegal and is therefore revoking The Declaration of Independence 4th July 1776, perhaps they could make it a reverse takeover and install Theresa May in the White House as President?

    If the new Constitution is then drafted by American lawyers who know no better, it will be the US of America and England, and the rest of us escape out the back door.

    We can sell them the nukes at a handsome profit.

  180. Joemcg
    Ignored
    says:

    Ah, there’s that abusiveness from Mr Peffers rearing its ugly head again. Not a good look. I think you write bullshit about Scotland being sovereign Robert. Fed up reading it.

  181. defo
    Ignored
    says:

    Great news Valerie. Let’s hope others across Europe, regions & municipalities, if not Nations, can muster a voice in support of freedom.

    Surely the decent, democracy loving peoples of Europe & beyond are looking to their leaders and wondering ?

    And if Apple were offshoring German or French companies ?

    Complete Corporate capture.

    A few well chosen words from NS & Co. could really upset the Apple cart.
    A statement of the facts.

    No representation. No taxation.

  182. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Joemacg @ 1.19
    Eh!!
    I never set out to disprove anything Joe…
    I have no clue what your getting at….
    But never mind ….plenty of time to explore it another day I am too busy trying to catch up on the situation in Catalonia right now to be schooling anybody on soverenty …..especially someone who has potentially been around long enough to know better.. So later eh…!!Ta

  183. Big Phil
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Liz g
    Liz ,never met you but you are brilliant,( always liked ye) mer power tae yer elbow hen. 🙂

  184. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Joemcg says at 12:03 am .. ”Robert Peffers we have covered this before. Scotland has no sovereign powers. The Supreme Court overruled any Scottish say on article 50 back in January.”

    Forget about what has gone on before, Joe. It’s all Westminster codswallop. The usual hoo-ha to shut us up.

    When over 50% of Scots vote for Independence we have that power Joe. IMMENSE POWER IN FACT. The power of a majority of Scots voting for Independence. The ALL powerful SOVEREIGN Scots. That’s why people like Davidson and Mundell keep on harping on that the Scots don’t want to be Independent, because they know that when we tip the 50% plus for Independence they are well and truly over and out.

    Here in the UK and in fact notably acknowledged as being Sovereign Scots Worldwide.

  185. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @yesindyref2

    History is a funny old thing and some folk have short memories.

    https://blog.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/2017/07/04/british-reaction-to-americas-declaration-of-independence/

    Most nations have an uneasy birth. More than a few have come into to being whilst fighting oppression, colonialism or some other form of oppression. A great may did so whilst opposing the ‘legal’ power of the day.

    Some folk only too easily and regrettably… forget the whys and wherefores over time.

    These days it seems the world is spinning out of control with dogmas and forces driving people’s opinions and feelings to breaking point. Scary place these days and no mistake. The peacemakers seemingly on the back foot and reason and empathy lost to the current crop of world leaders. This is all on everyone’s response at this point, not least the Spanish government, the UN, EU, everyone.

    What happens next will define a lot of people for a very long time.

  186. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    All the media reports seem to think the Catalan referendum was illegal, which personally I think is questionnable in itself, though since it was curtailed by the Spanish Gov, it might not be really usable. Most media thinks the UDI is also illegal, and this is even more interesting.

    Fistly of course realpolitik rules over international law, what is, is, and that’s an end to it. So if all the world states recognised Catalonia in time, then Catalonia is.

    Peat Worrier dug up some interesting stuff:

    https://twitter.com/PeatWorrier/status/923923863259500545

    the bit he quotes in a graphic is nteresting, and I also searched for “The court was also required to consider” with quotes wrapped around plus “Quebec”, and found the Quebec court musings were also considered in Sri Lanka, and an HoC Parliamenatary briefing about our ref, so it shows that in international law such as it is, even other country musings and rulings can be considered.

    Tickell also pointed out the Kosovo case where the advisory ruling was that Kosovo’s UDI of 2008 was not illegal in international law. Different circumstances perhaps.

    Seems to me though that while at the moment it’s an open question about “legality”, forthcoming events by the Spanish Gov whatever they are could also have a bearing on any theoretical case brought to any court, by the Catalonian Gov / ex-gov, or perhaps even any Catalonian a la Miller on Article 50. And maybe whether ICJ or even ECJ, as since Spain has “suspended” Catalonia’s government and doesn’t accept its UDI, Catalonia is STILL in the EU.

  187. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    Dratted cut and paste (mutters).

    Should have read ‘whilst fighting intolerance, colonialism or some other form of oppression.’

    You get the drift. (sigh)

  188. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Macart
    You’re up and about, like me! I had a kip and then a wee glass of malt to toast Catalonia, don’t drink often these days.

    I (we) had to live throught the Cold War with the theoretical threat of being blown to bits or radiated to death, but there was a natural order in those days. Today just seems wild, no logic, no deep thinkers, all totally surface and about winning elections or temporary personal power. I feel sorry for my kids though they don’t seem to notice the mad mad world, just the scenery 🙂

  189. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Macart
    From that link “The Scots Magazine” (the oldest magazine in the world). Ouch. Plenty of Unionists and colonists back in those days too 🙂

  190. Macart
    Ignored
    says:

    @yesindyref2

    Pretty much dads. I’d be struggling to find a world leader, or grouping thereof, you could get behind as a force for reason and reliability these days. Without empathy there is no imagination and vice versa. You can’t put yourself in the other guy’s shoes. You can’t imagine deprivation or suffering. With short sighted political gain in mind, you can’t imagine solutions, only create more problems.

    Like I say, what happens next will define people for a long time to come.

    Better hope that somewhere out there, some of those leaders have a bit of an epiphany.

    In our wee corner of the world we’re lucky. I reckon we do have an FM that hasn’t forgotten how to care and has that bit of empathy and imagination which is scarce on the ground elsewhere. Will it be enough for us? I think we’re going to find out soon enough.

  191. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Phil @ 2.06
    Why thank ye Sir and right back at ya!
    Apparently I just missed meeting you on the last Glasgow Green march (the one with the thunderstorm) but there’s always the next time ….finger’s crossed!

  192. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Macart
    Yeah, pretty depressed about it, though personal finances don’t help either!

    Maybe I’ll win the lottery tomorrow, and the world will have that epiphany and find some empathy. Even the whole North Korea and Russia thing shows a complete and utter absence of it, particularly NK.

  193. Dorothy Devine
    Ignored
    says:

    Anyone read Ian Jacks ‘better together out of the EU’ piece in the Guardian?

    Never mind the 62% wanting to stay in , never mind – just do as yer telt by Westminster and the puddins’ that run the show.

  194. Anne
    Ignored
    says:

    Dorothy D
    Yes, just read the Ian Jack piece. Normally I enjoy his writing but this was true better together Guardian stuff. The fact that Westminster is sailing towards the cliff edge, trashing the NHS on the way, putting all its money into weapons of mass destruction and fostering a nasty and vindictive society seasoned by xenophobia doesn’t matter seemingly. Scotland is not to be allowed or encouraged to aspire to improve itself.

  195. Scotspine
    Ignored
    says:

    US State Dept had tweeted along the lines “we support Unity of Spain”.

    I tweeted “You will be rejoining the UK then”.

    Earned me an instant twitter suspension.

    The power of democracy….

  196. Ghillie
    Ignored
    says:

    Love and kisses to the Independent Republic of Catalunia 🙂

    I see you. I acknowledge you. I honour you =)

  197. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    The Guardian doesn’t want to be left on its own with Brexit, so like Labour in Scotland, will work to sacrifice Scotland.

    They have no plan just drivelling fear. All their pointless, self indulgent, middle-class wittering is irrelevant.

  198. McDuff
    Ignored
    says:

    I admire the Catalans for their passion and guts and of course their independence should be recognised. But in openly recognising Catalonia Nicola Sturgeon has made some powerful enemies in the EU who if Scotland becomes independent will make it extremely difficult for us to be accepted back into the EU. As it is they didn`t exactly indicate they would welcome us if we voted for independence in `14.
    It is vital we gain easy entrance into the EU and if that proves difficult how do we sell an independent Scotland to the electorate being out of Europe and out of the UK.
    Viva Catalonia but Scottish independence is my priority.

  199. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    Folks discussing what they will and won’t do, for against the EU, we’ll just join EFTA etc have missed the point about choices.

    ‘I have an orange and an apple, I’m going to choose which I’m going to eat, might even be both’. That’s a choice.

    ‘If I had an orange and an apple I could choose which I’m going to eat’. That’s where Scotland is right now yet people are talking here as if they are in the first scenario.

    Get the goods then you can choose.

  200. Ghillie
    Ignored
    says:

    @ 8.21 am

    Aye McDuff, but we’re nae feart 🙂

  201. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    McDuff at 8.21

    Disagree entirely, McDuff. You appear to have missed the point that the UK is leaving the EU and Scotland wants to remain. Catalonia doesn’t want to leave the EU either.

  202. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    Dakk..
    Not sure how all this might play out for Scotland.

    What is for sure, is that pointing the finger here there and everywhere is disrespectful to everyone’s intelligence.

  203. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m sovereign. And so’s my wife.

    It’s as easy as that, joemc, RP, etc.

  204. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Don’t know if anyone has already pointed out the obvious.

    If events unfold in Catalonia in a reasonably orderly fashion, and a peaceful outcome is achieved, then it will help when Scotland’s time comes.

    If events turn nasty, then Unionists here will use that in their Project Fear 2. And as last time, there will be swithering NOs who believe the doom merchants.

    Already they use the threat of a repeat of the Ulster Troubles, they will add any unpleasantness involving Catalonia.

    Yes, there are parallels between Scotland and Catalonia, but there are also big differences in our status and circumstances.

  205. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    For clarity, I’m onside with the Catalonians, but nevertheless, I appreciate the EU’s awkward position.

    If democracy is sacred over laws and formal constitutions, what mechanism or yardstick do you use to control it? What stops a Hebridean Island declaring itself independent? What stops a football club declaring itself an independent country? Unchecked, Independence undermines sovereignty, convention, and stability. Say, just for a different example that Catalonia leaving Spain left the remainder of Spain economically unsustainable? It doesn’t, but as a principle, somewhere else it could. Is that ok? If Scotland’s wealth channelled through Glasgow made Glasgow wealthy, then Glasgow decided it wanted independence that left Scotland behind impoverished and starving, would that be an equitable state of affairs?

    Somebody, somewhere, has to protect the International matrix of nations. Not to suppress the people for the crime of suppression, but just to put the brakes on the potentially dangerous and inflammatory fragmentation of established order. It’s a risky complicated business dividing up nations, so for safety’s sake, it has to be a difficult business too.

    If you accept that principle, and without it, there is only a fast track towards anarchy, then there has to be price to pay for the status of nationhood. Becoming a nation must have entry requirements and benchmark thresholds which are challenging and difficult to achieve. There might be nothing to stop a Nations self determination, but that very determination must be absolutely determined. The people have to prove they want it enough. The country has to make its case for why it should exist. I respectfully suggest the democratic will of the people, by itself, is not enough.

    Sovereignty is strengthened with democracy but can exist without it. Democracy without sovereignty however is just an opinion poll at best, the roar of a mob at worst. It pains me to say it, the Catalans are losing the battle of sovereign legitimacy, and risk being defeated as a mob that roars. It isn’t right, it isn’t pretty, but countries go to war for such disputes.

    I fear in Scotland we have too much faith invested in our democracy. We misunderstand our situation, and misread the spirit through which the International community regards us. It is not our democracy that strengthens Scotland’s constitutional argument. That, by itself is not enough. What makes Scotland different, what sets us apart from other would-be Nations is the fact our Sovereignty already exists, and Scotland the nation already exists. It exists, and existed unchallenged and recognised for centuries, and never has any Act or statute rescinded that sovereignty. The Act of Union merely caged it.

    Scotland does not require to win the arguments of secession. Scotland requires our constitutional sovereignty to be made separate and distinct from U.K. sovereignty, and recognised as a legitimate and undisputed reality.

    People just don’t listen, but it is ALL in the Sovereignty; and collectively we are simply not getting to grips with it.

    Do you see why it is vital, absolutely vital, for Brexit to be a constitutional divide? The Sovereignty of Scotland overruled by the faux sovereignty of Westminster!! A crime!! Unjust!! That violation of Scotland’s sovereignty ticks the sovereignty outrage box, the democratic mandate box, it is Brexit which is the act of secession from Europe which double blanks Scotland’s secession from the UK and suddenly Scotland becomes a living paradox where the anti-secessionist EU can, and will, embrace Scotland’s “secession” because it is in fact a rejection of UK secession, and a determination to remain part of Europe. Scotland can be the exception which proves the rule.

    Scotland is a one of a kind unique situation, but for some godforsaken reason we are blind to our strengths and unique circumstance, and only giving ourselves the constitutional tools available to a secessionist revolution, when in fact we already have the tools of a sovereign Nation but time and time again, we talk ourselves out of using them.

  206. Pacman
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert Peffers @ 28 October, 2017 at 12:32 am

    The point I was making in my original post that Scotland at this present time isn’t a sovereign nation and therefore can’t give recognition to any other nation that has just declared independence. In fact, it would not give it any legitimacy and therefore pointless.

    I am not disputing in any way that the people of Scotland are soverign or the legitimacy for Scotland to become a nation in it’s own right. I am just pointing out the facts here and now and how other people view the position of Scotland at this present time.

  207. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    The Catalan Referendum

    2.26 million votes went to be counted
    0.77 million votes were destroyed

    Assuming the “lost” votes had also split 90% YES, then over 2.7 million voted YES.

    That would represent around 52% of the electorate of 5.3 million voting YES.

    Also, there were no doubt people who wanted to vote, but were prevented. Again, statistically these would have been 90% YES, further raising the mandate.

    Why is the world having difficulty understanding that?

  208. Jockanese Wind Talker
    Ignored
    says:

    Bit of a BritNat argument from you @Breeks says at 9:30 am:

    “Say, just for a different example that Catalonia leaving Spain left the remainder of Spain economically unsustainable? It doesn’t, but as a principle, somewhere else it could. Is that ok?”

    If Scotland’s wealth channelled through Scotland left England behind impoverished and starving, would that be an equitable state of affairs?

    I would say that be an unfortunate (but acceptable) state of affairs of their own making would you say Breeks??

  209. starlaw
    Ignored
    says:

    Today UK labour leader is in Scotland holding meetings in support of The Union, and where are the Scottish Opposition …. arguing amongst themselves about events in another country. Typical Scots look another direction when and let Labour have free rule.

  210. Fairliered
    Ignored
    says:

    OT Just read Ian Brotherhood’s poem “Address frae a haggis” on a poster at Fairlie station. Good work, Ian!

  211. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Hearts and minds:

    All the usual reporting from all the usual sources this morning, if you didn’t vote you were against something, which is clearly and obviously nonsense in any sane persons mind
    You may not have voted because, you didn’t care, you were afraid of being beaten up by the police, or you may be against it, so there’s three reasons and I’m sure folk could think of more, but in the world of *Democracy is what we say it is because we can beat you up* or *we can strangle your economy* this is all pretty normal fodder for the media

    The other excuse of legality is a cracker and anyone with half a brain can cite many illegalities which became legal whenever it was expedient to do so

    I find the American intervention the most ridiculous considering when they declared UDI from The Empire of England in historical terms it was only five minutes ago and every year celebrate their bombs bursting in air with great gusto on their Independence day thanks very much

    Here in good old Blighty everything that comes out of commentators mouths is aimed like an exocet missile at Scotland with a giant warning attached reading *try it Scotland and we’ll crush you*
    And it’s odd isn’t it that in order to get it’s way to “restore democracy” one country is prepared to put another’s population through as much hardship as they possibly can to win their love and affection

    The Empire of England should remember all the countries who have escaped the stranglehold of their love and how not one of them are on the phone begging to come back and no force of arms or threats is going to make them and there have also been countries who have used force right back and the one thing the English Empire don’t like and scares them Doo Lally is when other people start threatening them on their home turf

    So think on calm down and behave yourself England, It’s not all about you, in fact since the Brexit decision not much has anything to do with you anymore

    In the words of Father Ted, you’re getting smaller and further away

  212. Tinto Chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    @Richard Duncan 11.42: interesting point re the international response to the meltdown in Yugoslavia. By coincidence, I’m on the last chapter of “The Death of Yugoslavia” by Laura Silber and Dunragit’s own Allan Little*. Being reminded of the dreadful events in Vukovar, Srebrenica and Mostar and the complete ineffectiveness of the EU was timely and worrying.

    Obviously, nothing on that scale is likely to happen (we hope) but Spain really has painted itself into a corner and any more violence will make many EU states more and more uneasy. Further recognition beyond Europe also builds up momentum behind Catalonia.

    As others have wisely remarked, the birth of a new state is often difficult and, for better or worse, often comes down to realpolitik rather than fine-sounding words in a UN charter.

    “England and Spain have run out of empire.” That’s a great line, louis and I laughed, but unfortunately it’s not quite true.

    Great living in The Last Colony, innit?

    Hope I live to see our own “End of Empire” celebrations…

    *Btw: anyone know what happened to him? He left the BBC after the referendum “to explore other projects” and I wondered whether he was a closet Yesser who, like Paul Mason, became totally scunnered by his employer’s behaviour in 2014.

  213. Effijy
    Ignored
    says:

    Reading an old pensioners Daily Hail,
    Fascist rag of the decade.
    One of their scribblers, Emma Cowling is
    Delighting in the Claim that the Scottish painting,
    Monarch of the Glen, may well be a stag from
    Buckinghamshire.

    She has only warmed up with this one as she
    Identifies dillusional Scots as claiming to have
    Invented Haggis, which she says is English, Golf
    Is French, Whisky is Irish, and my favourite, she
    Seems to think that Scits would want to lay claim
    To claiming JK Rolling is Scottish????

    No JK is definitely English and she is well happy to
    Spend her £Millions in order to keep Scotland an
    Anti- EU Colony.

    A Scot happy to degrade her country for the English pieces of Silver.

    There really is no need for the ing at the end of her name!

  214. Tinto Chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    “OT Just read Ian Brotherhood’s poem “Address frae a haggis” on a poster at Fairlie station. Good work, Ian!”

    He’s not back on the graffiti again, is he, Fairliered?

    He’s our very own Banksy of The Ode, imho.

    Dr Jim: love it when you’re angry. Some wise words in there too.

  215. Socrates MacSporran
    Ignored
    says:

    The EU really is in the horns of a dilemna in the case of ongoing events in Catalonia.

    We are told, the ultimate ambition of the true European Union zealots is a single, federal Europe, stretching from the Atlantic coasts of Ireland, Scotland, Portugal and Spain all the way to Russia. The big nations – Spain, France, Germany and so on would be split into regions – Catalonia, Normandy, Saxony, Bavaria and so-forth, all sending delegates to a single European federal parliament in Brussels/Strasbourg.

    Towards this end, EU regions were set-up a few years ago, remember the stooshie because one of them, centred round the Channel, would have had Kent, Sussex, Hampshire etc in the same region as the French channel departments.

    Of course, Westminster, Madrid, Paris, Berlin and Rome are not exactly in favour of this, but, by splittng-up the larger member countries, a fairer system would have evolved, argue the zealots.

    Spain shutting down Catalonian self-determination, has perhaps won the support of the current big guns, but, I dare say, the one-Europe federalists will sit tight and try again later.

    We do indeed live in interesting times.

  216. Pacman
    Ignored
    says:

    Breeks @ 28 October, 2017 at 9:30 am

    If democracy is sacred over laws and formal constitutions, what mechanism or yardstick do you use to control it? What stops a Hebridean Island declaring itself independent? What stops a football club declaring itself an independent country? Unchecked, Independence undermines sovereignty, convention, and stability. Say, just for a different example that Catalonia leaving Spain left the remainder of Spain economically unsustainable? It doesn’t, but as a principle, somewhere else it could. Is that ok? If Scotland’s wealth channelled through Glasgow made Glasgow wealthy, then Glasgow decided it wanted independence that left Scotland behind impoverished and starving, would that be an equitable state of affairs?

    One of the arguments made against Catalan independence is that as a wealthy region, it is being selfish by taking it’s wealth in order to support the poorer regions of Spain.

    It was not the fault of the Catalans that other regions of Spain are poor, that is the fault of the central government for not providing the support to these regions to increase their wealth.

    I don’t know too much about Spanish internal politics or the dynamics of it’s economy. However, it does look Spain is like the UK in that it holds the prestige of Madrid and the perception of Spain abroad higher than the regions of Spain itself.

    Catalonia has provided adequate taxes to the Spanish government and it looks like they are not using it properly for the benefit of Catalonia and other regions of Spain. If the Spanish central government can’t or is unwilling to change it’s direction to one that is both beneficial to Catalonia and the rest of Spain then it is fair for Catalonia to go it’s own way if it chooses to.

    Going off topic, you have brought an interesting point about Scottish independence. Will independence just mean a change of flags and continuation of the status quo whereby Edinburgh or Glasgow dominates it to the detriment of the rest of the country or do we go for further devolution in Scotland after independence to ensure that every part of Scotland benefits?

  217. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    What a load of nonsense. There is one major problem. The majority in Catalonia did not vote for Independence. The majority wishes are being ignored. A recipe for disaster which will befall. Take off the pink coloured spectacles and the blinkers. Get into the real world.

    Some in Scotland want to interfere in another country’s internal affairs but don’t want anyone interfering in Scotland’s affairs. Kettle black. The Spanish Gov and the EU will not let the euro go down if they can help it. It will adversely affect too many people. Ruin the world economy. The EU/ECB guarantee Catalonia/Spain debt. They must keep within certain guidelines of debt in the Eurozone. Although the EU/ECB do help out with loans etc in essential circumstances. To support reunification and Independence. They have in many cases where there is majority support.

    The Catalonia and Scottish situation is entirely different. Constant comparison could put people off voting for Independence in Scotland. That could be a problem. If some ignorant people do not stop it. Stop the hysterics and lose their way of any sensible reasoning. Or rational.

    ‘If you do not vote you are not voting for something’. Especially in a boycott. The numbers do not add up.

    They will have to come to some form of agreement eventually. Hopefully soon.

  218. Effijy
    Ignored
    says:

    I see that yet another BBC presenter is being investigated
    As a sexual deviant.

    Lost count now of how many BBC workers fit
    This disgusting profile.

    I feel confident that it must have been a mandatory
    Qualification of the interview process.
    Isn’t it strange how no one who worked with the
    Monsters never seen or knew or reported these people?

    And to this day these people do not need to answer to anyone!.

    Some good news is that over 93,000 have signed the petition against
    BBC Bias against Independence!

  219. One_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    I think the main difference between Scotland and Catalonia is that they don’t have every newspaper in the land, BBC News, ITV News, Sky News, Reporting Scotland and STV News all constantly telling them lies and scaring the crap out of them.

  220. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T – Keiser Report on the ponzi scheme that is “Help to Buy” which merely lines the pockets of the wealthy. Comment too on the Academies in England, or the privatistion of education.
    Episode 1142 first 12 minutes:
    https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/408070-episode-max-keiser-1142/

  221. ScottieDog
    Ignored
    says:

    Ref catalonia, the more important question in all this is WHY.
    Why is there a tendency towards fragmentation. Why now?

    For me it is 40 yeas of neoliberalism. The transfer of wealth and centralisation of power to the few. It won’t stop with catalonia or lombardy. It will continue unless there is a rebalancing of power and wealth.

    TheSE are the real issues the EU need to deal with. Unfortunately the power behind the EU itself sits with wealthy neoliberals

  222. Lenny Hartley
    Ignored
    says:

    Ken500 once again it’s you spouting nonsense, so your happy to count people who are dead or did not vote as no voters, same as here in 79. Utter Jackie Baileys. If you don’t vote your opinion doesn’t count, that’s the way it works.

  223. Clydebuilt
    Ignored
    says:

    This is a must read. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/10/misdirection-and-catalonia/comment-page-3/#comment-704310

    It’s not just Catalonia that’s got problems the whole of Europe is sliding down a slippery slope. The clock is being turned back towards a much more dangerous time

    Is Brexit the long term paving the way to WAR, by our betters.

  224. Hamish100
    Ignored
    says:

    In some respects what is happening in Catalonia & Northern Ireland is similar. Right wing don’t like what is happening at a local level. Social democratic parties coming to the fore then direct rule is imposed ignoring the wishes of local people.
    They don’t exist in the eyes of the ruling class. They tell others they are a homogenous mass i.e. Spanish or British/English. Your not Catalonian you are Spanish, Your British you are not Irish. Likewise Scots are being told that they are Brits ( detest that term) and are Brexiting.
    Right wing dictatorial and oppressive classes v self determination and independent people’s. Where do you stand?

  225. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    Ken500 still won’t answer the only important questions.

    Should the people of Catalonia have free vote to decide their political status?

    What right has Rojoy to refuse that under the terms of the UN Charter and general democratic principles?

    Is a civil war instead the Spanish way of doing things?

    Tell us you support the calling of a free and fair referendum (that will prove your points surely).

  226. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Fairliered –

    😉

    Cheers, but that isn’t my work, it’s my dad’s.

    (If it was mine it’d be punctuated with asterisks!)

  227. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    BREAKING from Pravda Quay
    with Jackie Kim Ono

    https://imgur.com/a/eJ1yx

  228. jfngw
    Ignored
    says:

    The MSM and others question the validity of the Catalonia ballot which gives the yes 38% of total electorate. They do not question the EU referendum ballot that only has 37% for leaving the EU, or the current government having just over 29% of the vote (100% of power) using the same criteria.

    Apparently turnout is only important when you don’t get the result you want.

  229. Joemcg
    Ignored
    says:

    Liz etc at this moment in time Scotland do not have any sovereign powers ergo we are not sovereign. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand here. We are going round in circles. The Supreme Court case in January confirmed it. Rightly or wrongly we lost it in 1707.

  230. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Joemcg
    I get where you’re coming from but your position indicates you respect the authority of the Supreme Court, who’s ruling was in complete opposition to the norms of international law. Fuck eh, they’re a bunch of myopic twats.

    English law does not stand above Scots law!

  231. Robert Graham
    Ignored
    says:

    Anyone out there still believe in the neutrality of our state broadcaster have a look at their website regarding yesterdays vote when Catalonia declared independence .

    Lots of facts and voting figures, percentage this and that .

    The glaring omission of the methods used to stop this ballot taking place , the 800 + victims of police brutality , the destruction of ballot boxes ,

    Everything critical of the Spanish governments methods omitted a totally one sided report that would have made Pravda and the Stasi proud of their efforts .

    The same people are responsible for the daily onslaught on the SNP , they continue to present independence with one word ” Separatists ” if you dont recognise state sponsored propaganda waken up it’s staring you in the face .

  232. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    Spanish nationalist thugs also closed down a number of polling stations [and confiscated thousands of ballot papers] thereby reducing the turn out.

  233. Dan Huil
    Ignored
    says:

    The people of Scotland are sovereign in Scotland, although at times you wouldn’t think so.

  234. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @louis.b.argyll says: 28 October, 2017 at 12:02 am:

    “Lot of people mistake EU leaders with the EU itself.”

    That’s one big nail hit squarely on the head, louis,b.

    There is another. though.

    Most people seem confused between the EU and the EC as far as official statements are concerned.

    However, when an EC official makes a statement, we must be very careful in how it is presented to us for EC commissioners can only officially make public statements that reflect the EU views.

    Yet the United Kingdom media propaganda machine invariably strives to confuse the public that these EC officials are giving the EU’s views. Barroso in particular was used by the Westminster propagandists when everything Barroso was preceded by a statement like, “in my view”, or, “I’m not specifically referring to Scotland but …”. In other words it was Barroso’s personal opinion but was then reported by the media as an EU official view.

    We must indeed be wary of statements by EC officials but more so now of EU officials giving their own personal, or their own country’s views. Unless it is an official EU statement it must remain a personal view.

    Remember always that even the smallest EU member state can veto anything that the big guns of the EU try to do but that veto only shows up after the EU parliament calls for a vote in the EU chamber after the debate.

    I doubt that the EU has even got round to such a debate yet, never mind a vote.

  235. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    Here is a link to the EU website that gives up to date news:-

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/portal/en

  236. Jack Murphy
    Ignored
    says:

    Off Topic. CATALONIAN BROADCASTERS REACTION TO SPANISH GOVERNMENT’S DECISION TO TAKE CONTROL OF THE CATALAN BROADCASTERS INCLUDING TV3.

    VIDEO ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE BROADCASTERS THREE DAYS AGO:

    http://tinyurl.com/y9987xmo

  237. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Pacman @ 10.17
    While I can’t claim to speak for anyone else.
    It’s my impression that most of us aren’t in this movement to create a mini-me Westminster.
    With “another” set of ruling elites.

    We are trying to re-jig the way things are done, to reset Scotland back on the path it should have been on were it not for it’s neighbours interference.
    I.E. A peaceful modern democracy, a natural progression from the clan system if ye like, (not the shortbread version) a system that is lead by the brightest and best chosen by us to advance this civilization for everyone.

    To do this and to ensure that we don’t recreate the current elite led system.
    We need to bring our government within slapping distance.
    They will govern as we wish or we will find other’s who will!

    So in answer to your question Pacman, naw, it’s no just a change of Flags.

    The voting weight of the Central belt will absolutely need to be addressed and addressed imaginatively.
    As will a route out for the Islands if they want it.

    As for Breeks point about who should be “allowed” to declare independence …well is that no obvious,any identifiable peoples who can afford it?
    We should be the last nation who would hold on to people who want to go,don’t ye think?

  238. Grouse Beater
    Ignored
    says:

    Your weekend reading

    In view of Catalonia’s declaration I’ve updated the essay.

    Some history of Catalonia: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-kOl
    And Independent Novelist: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-lkj

  239. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    LIVE from Pravda Quay
    with Jackie Kim Ono

    https://imgur.com/a/6cVRK

  240. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Joemacg @ 11.15
    No it didn’t Joe…. It (the supreme court) said nothing of the kind.
    It wasn’t asked to!
    Go back and read the judgement.
    At most it said all that shit is a matter for the politician’s!

    This Catalonia thing is worrying… Don’t ye think?

  241. miike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    I drew attention recently to the situation of Northern Cyprus re all these issues of fragmentation, sovereignty, recognition and the EU.

    And was surprised nobody commented on it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cyprus_and_the_European_Union

    Note the startling variation on a theme here –

    that the breakaway part voted for reunification in anticipation of Cyprus joining the EU –

    but the other part of Cyprus voted against such reunification.

  242. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Insulting Catalonia/Spain will not help Scottish Independence. It is also not being good Europeans. Leave them to work out their own problems. There are so many out in the streets because they have 4 month holidays a year. Average. One week a month.

  243. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Not a lot of people know this but “slapping distance” is the Newtonian unit of measurement for unbounded rationality, a.k.a. empathetic reach. 🙂

  244. Lenny Hartley
    Ignored
    says:

    Liz g don’t know where you get this route out for the islands if they want it, like it or lump it they are part of Scotland, they are not a different ethnic grouping. All this jacke bailey about being Norse is just that Pish. DNA tests say they majority are not of Viking origin. Even if they were, they have an issue in that the Shetlands belongs to the Scottish Crown in Lieu of a marriage dowry and they would only have natural resources out to the 12 mile limit as per UN treaty.

  245. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    The numbers for Catalonia Independence and Brexit are similar. A third being pushed through without a majority. Unlikely to succeed or sede. If democracy and justice is upheld.

    Support for Scottish Independence is higher. 50% and rising. For good reason.

  246. mike cassidy
    Ignored
    says:

    I think my posting just disappeared into digital limbo there.

    So, I’ll just draw your attention to this.

    After three decades and counting –

    Only Turkey has recognised Northern Cyprus.

    And note the startling variation on sovereignty.

    When they voted to re-enter the fold at the point of Cyprus joining the EU –

    the part they broke away from said no thanks!

    So the whole of Cyprus was accepted into the EU, but EU law exists in a suspended state over Northern Cyprus.

    WTF!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cyprus_and_the_European_Union

  247. dakk
    Ignored
    says:

    ‘What is for sure, is that pointing the finger here there and everywhere is disrespectful to everyone’s intelligence.’

    Oh my!

    Humble apologies to to all the sensitive intelligencia on here.

  248. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    Pacman says

    One of the arguments made against Catalan independence is that as a wealthy region, it is being selfish by taking it’s wealth in order to support the poorer regions of Spain.

    It was not the fault of the Catalans that other regions of Spain are poor, that is the fault of the central government for not providing the support to these regions to increase their wealth.

    I’m not saying what I said from the point of a BritNat, nor even a poor Spanish citizen condemning wealthy Catalonia, but instead there is a general presumption within the International community that sees secession as a bad thing.

    Without using a specific example, but say a region in an African country seceded, but left the continuing country with greatly reduced access to fresh water. Shouldn’t the people being left without water have a say in the secession? Should that secession, even an impeccably democratic secession, be recognised if it means crops in the neighbourhing state are doomed to fail and people are left to starve? What if a regions secession blocks a country’s access to the sea and container traffic?

    Some secessions are positive developments to be encouraged, some secessions, like coups and military annexations are naturally deplored, but inbetween there are a whole cross section of infinitely more complex constitutional disputes where one man’s right is another man’s wrong and there isn’t no common ground between them.

    In a very crude sense, which doesn’t do the argument justice, say if every secession faces a baptism of constitutional fire at its inception, then the weak and unsubstantial secessions falter, but the secessions of true believers emerge from the flames intact and “proven” and receive the appropriate recognition.

    Secession isn’t impossible, just very, very, difficult, and unless you have the stomach for it, just leave it alone. That’s the message the EU and International Community are saying without actually saying it.

    In the coming weeks and months, we are going to see the resolve of the Catalans tested. With enough resolve, Catalonia will emerge as the world’s newest sovereign Nation. If resolve falters, then Spain will emerge the victor, and life for Catalonia might be unpleasant for a long time.

    My own perception is that the EU is equally disgusted with the Catalans forcing the issue of independence as it is with the Spanish cack-handed suppression of it. It is no longer a case of right versus wrong, since both sides are equally guilty of polarising the debate and leaving a negotiated resolution now all but impossible. All that is left for onlookers is the technicality of Law, and in law, the Catalonians have renaged on the 1978 Spanish Constitution which they themselves ratified with 90%+ support.

    I am entirely open to the suggestion that the Catalans had no other choice, repeated attempts at negotiations were shunned, and the Catalans felt they had no other choice. But if they expect that argument to carry the day with the International Community now, then before proceeding with a controversial and contested referendum, why didn’t they seek intervention from International Community to address Spain’s intransigence to negotiate?

    And to address JWT’s point, yes I suppose there could be a constitutional issue for the effect of Scotland’s Independence from the Union upon the continuing rUK, but that’s the point. There is a completely asymmetric apportioning of consequence with the breakup of the UK, because while Scotland is routinely exploited by the UK across a whole battery of issues, whereas I would struggle even to suggest a single issue where Scotland in turn exploits the UK. If the BritNats want to argue the toss, then lay on MacDuff and damned be him who first cries hold.

    Have the argument. If we cannot agree, under Scots Law, the law of constitutional sovereignty will arbitrate.

  249. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @pacman says: 28 October, 2017 at 12:14 am:

    “Scotland, at the moment isn’t as a sovereign nation, nor is Catalonia or any of the any other ones that is wanting to become one in the near future.”

    What a closed mind and Westminster inspired load of old cobblers awls, pacman. Every claim you make here is dependant upon the premise that what Westminster says is the gospel according to Westminster.

    By which kind of reasoning the many former USSR States now running their own affairs are illegally breaking the laws of …

    Wait for it!

    Wait for it!

    The USSR.

    The points that are being explained to you show that without doubt you base every claim you make upon the premise that no matter what The Westminster Parliament says they must be right because they are sovereign. Well, pacman, here’s a stone cold fact.

    Under English law, (and there is no such thing as UK Law as the UK operates under English Law), the Sovereign power of England is Her Majesty the Queen of England (Note it is England NOT the UK), is the Queen of England, (Note it is Queen of England not of the UK). Note also that The Queen of England is the Queen of the three country Kingdom of England.

    What! You don’t believe me?

    Oh! Then explain Why it is Her Majesty’s Government?
    Her Majesty’s Treasury?
    Her Majesty’s Royal Navy>
    Her Majesty’s Royal Air Force?
    Her Majesty’s Royal Mint?
    et.al.

    Westminster has always been run on an illegal premise that what happened on the last day of April 1707 was that Scotland ended and was absorbed into the Kingdom of England that renamed itself as The United Kingdom.

    Trouble is that never legally happened for the Treaty of Union is an agreement between two equally sovereign independent KINGDOMS to unite and use a single parliament but with certain matters, (Leadership of the Church of England: Independence of the two legal systems: Scottish & English Education systems and so on remaining, in perpetuity, independent. Hansard reports that the Parliament of England ended on the last day of April 1707 and has never been elected since. On the other hand the old Scottish Parliament was only officially prorogued and was actually only officially reconvened by Winnie Ewing as the Holyrood Parliament of Scotland:-

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/historic_moments/newsid_8187000/8187312.stm

    So legally Westminster is supposed to be the parliament of the bipartite United Kingdom.

    Yet today it has illegally assumed for itself to be the de facto parliament of the country of England that has thus devolved the sovereign powers of the Queen of England, to the countries of Wales, Northern Ireland and the country, (not the kingdom), of Scotland. Assumed illegally. Got it now, pacman?

    Just because Westminster says so is NOT legally making anything true because Westminster is legally supposed to be a bipartite union of kingdoms but is operating as the Parliament of the country of England that has assumed Scotland is an English possession like Wales, (Statute of Rhuddlan), and Ireland, (Crown of Ireland Act), but there is nothing that has legally made the Kingdom of Scotland an English dominion.

    Unless of course – you can show otherwise.

  250. Robert Graham
    Ignored
    says:

    The anointed one Jeremy usually very vocal on current events, is and has been very quiet on the one subject that the media are all over, Re events in Spain, what’s your views on a obviously fascist Spanish government trying to crush dissent by brute force Jeremy ? .

    Our State broadcaster actively sanitising news from Spain by presenting only the Spanish-governments view of events and airbrushing the destruction of votes and ballot boxes, along with the 800 or more casualties who simply wanted to vote,

    This disgusting mind numbing hope sapping government department operating under the guise of a news provider is the one, the number one impediment to our Independence, they must be challenged at every turn, openly on live broadcasts, on broadcasts they can’t manipulate, because these b/rds will do anything lawful or otherwise, to crush any hope or dissent .

  251. David Caledonia
    Ignored
    says:

    There is something i have often wondered about, now for general purposes i will just refer to english migrants who come and live in scotland, but it could be any nationality.
    Why are first generation migrants allowed to vote in a scottish independence referendum, surely it would be a much fairer system if only second generation migrants born in scotland where allowed to vote here in a referendum, the reason i say this is because, second generation would have been born and been brought up in scottish society and would have the understanding about what has been happening to scotland under the guise of unionism, any english unionist who comes to live or retire in scotland would probably vote for the union, scots who have lived here most of their lives and immigrated do not get a vote unless their main residence is here, but anyone can vote as long as they live here, so Mr and Mrs little englanders for example get to vote just because they retired here to scotland. surely that cannot be right ?

  252. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Catalonia. Over 3 million voted. That’s over 57% turnout. And that’s despite a Unionist boycott.

    Unfortunately a quarter of the ballot papers were ‘vandalised’. However, it seems totallly reasonable to assume the results from the three quarters can be extrapolated to the whole.

    That gives almost 52% of the electorate voting YES.

    To put that in context….

    Indyref1 winners NO received 47% of the electorate

    Brexit winners Leave received 37% of the electorate

    If, in IndyRef2 YES gets 52% of the electorate we would be ‘over the moon’, and quite rightly so.

    It is unfortunate that the 52% win in Catalonia is not ‘cast iron’ because of the ‘vandalism’. But no one should have serious doubts about it.

  253. Breeks
    Ignored
    says:

    As for Breeks point about who should be “allowed” to declare independence …well is that no obvious,any identifiable peoples who can afford it?

    Not my point Liz. My point was not who could secede, but how do you act when confronted with a basket case secession which creates all kinds of trouble, but which nevertheless has a perfect democratic mandate? (That’s not a reference to Catalonia by the way).

    You need controls on secession or every majority of two people can secede inside the borders of their living room. We are suddenly in Passport to Pimlico territory for real.

  254. birnie
    Ignored
    says:

    Catalan TV has just included the front page of The National in its review of the foreign press. A pity it also showed the front page of The Scotsman declaring that the UK would not acknowledge Catalonia.

  255. Iain mhor
    Ignored
    says:

    I’m sure everyone here is aware how Countries/ Nations/ States/ Regions/ Landowners (however you wish to describe it) came into being, come into being and are defined?
    Also how the Rule of Law comes into being?
    It’s taken and made by force. It’s never gifted.

    From the first handful of people on a few acres of soil who claimed it as theirs. Their possession, which others won’t get to have. Within that small group, a single dissenting voice questioning who had the right to decide, is overruled. Forcibly. Then those principles from the earliest single dissenting voice must be held. That tiny patch of soil defended and its all done by force. Force of will and strength.
    It’s expanded through force of will and strength, contracted by succumbing, grown through amalgamation to become a greater force. Laws are created and “enforced”

    It’s only ever been who is stronger and has the most hauners. It’s the simplest, purest form of existence we learn in the playground. A country will come into existence by force. Force of will, force of strength and how many hauners it has.

    Catalunya, Scotland, anywhere.
    It may have the will, it probably doesn’t have the physical strength. The final question is: Does it have the hauners?
    If that’s an eventual ‘Yes’ then there is a new Country. If it doesn’t, there isn’t. If it relies on hauners, the question is simply: What price the hauners?
    Because the only true independence is enforcing your will on everyone else, everyone. You rely on no-one for anything, you take everything with impunity.
    “Taking back our independence” hah!
    Name me a truly independent country?
    There is a price for hauners.

    The rule of Law is not some ethereal idea. It’s “You and whose army? I may disagree with a Law, I can act with impunity right now. What is the Law going to do about it? Send someone to arrest me. If I don’t comply I will be taken by force. If I can’t be taken by main force, more will come. It becomes a force of arms. If that fails. I write the Law, I interpret the Law, I enforce the Law. I am the Law.
    It’s all very simple.

    Catalunya has nothing to do with the “Law” and arguing about it is a distraction. It has the will, it hasn’t the physical force, it needs hauners. If enough countries agree to help (recognise and defend it by whatever means) it becomes stronger than Spain, it becomes a new country.
    Same would happen with Scotland. Sovereignty & Law have nothing to do with anything. The UN can say here is a Law, the EU can say here is another, any man can say “here is mine”
    They can make and break their own with impunity, they (like Dredd) “are the Law”

    Strength of hauners doesn’t always neccessarily mean physical force. It just means in playground parlance ” Leave him alone or you’re getting it? “Aye? Whit you gonnae dae aboot it?”

    Scotland had a referendum, Westminster went with it on the principle of “What might happen if we don’t” We’re kinda feart of the others who might step in and punish us somehow, we’re not sure.
    Spain went with “Come ahead if you think you’re hard enough”
    Now it has absolutely nothing to do with Spain or Catalunya, it’s out of their hands. The square go has been called, the playground is circling, the heavy teams are flexing their muscle.
    What will the playground decide and at what price?
    Hmmm, what indeed?

  256. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ken500 10.23am

    I don’t make a habit of replying to folk much due to the arguments that can ensue from it
    But for you I’m making an exception, firstly you have no earthly idea of why folk vote in an election or don’t vote so you’ve jumped to the unimaginably stupid conclusion non voters are NO voters and then you have the temerity to call other people ignorant for expressing an opinion they’ve every right to do

    Your attitude to this topic and those who comment on it is bewilderingly naive in the extreme
    You’re entitled to the same position as everyone else who comments on WOS no more and no less, what you’re not entitled to is considering your own opinion as more valid or more informed or more important than anyones else’s and you certainly are not entitled to tell people to *stop it* or name call in the fashion you do, it’s offensive

    My apologies to other Wingers for using this space to express my personal ire, I won’t make a habit of it

  257. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    The Law. Slavery was legal, homosexuality was illegal, etc etc.. Laws need changed continually to match changing societies.

    The Spanish constitution came out of the fascist era. Now is the time for them to rethink whether their Law is appropriate for today. Though it doesn’t look like that is imminent.

    It seems probable that if Madrid had opened discussions a decade ago, and changed where appropriate, events wouldn’t have gone the way they have.

  258. Scot Finlayson
    Ignored
    says:

    Anybody got any idea how this will play out ?

    peacefully through dialogue or like Basque/Ireland,decades of murder and terror with thousands of combatants and innocents dead or maimed,

    we need the UN and all its subsidiaries also the Catholic Church/Pope and the EU to get in there fast before some violent `point of no return` happens.

  259. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Martin Luther King Jr.’s ‘Letter From Birmingham Jail’
    You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court’s decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, it is rather strange and paradoxical to find us consciously breaking laws. One may well ask, “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: there are just laws, and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “An unjust law is no law at all.” – Martin Luther King Jr.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/04/martin-luther-kings-letter-from-birmingham-jail/274668/

    Sovereignty, International Law and Democracy

    Abstract
    In my reply to Jeremy Waldron’s article ‘Are Sovereigns Entitled to the Benefit of the International Rule of Law?’, I draw upon and in some ways expand Waldron’s important contribution to our understanding of the international rule of law. First of all, I suggest that Waldron’s argument about the international rule of law can be used to illuminate how we should understand the legitimate authority of international law over sovereign states, but also how some of sovereign states’ residual independence ought to be protected from legitimate international law. Secondly, I argue that the democratic pedigree of the international rule of law plays a role when assessing how international law binds democratic sovereign states and whether the international rule of law can and ought to benefit their individual subjects. Finally, I emphasize how Waldron’s argument that the international rule of law ought to benefit individuals in priority has implications for the sources of international law and for what sources can be regarded as sources of valid law.

    https://academic.oup.com/ejil/article/22/2/373/540688/Sovereignty-International-Law-and-Democracy

    THE NORMATIVE THEORY OF LAW
    The normative theory of law came into existence early in the twentieth century. Its purpose is to purify the traditional science of law by removing from it the many foreign elements whuch have found their way into it, and thus to establish a pure method of legal cognition. Its chief feature, therefore, is methodological and critical. The normative theory set out to build a system of generally valid notions which pre-suppose the normative contents of the various legal orders. The theoretcal equations which refer to these generally valid notions are not subject to change. They are found exclusively in the theory of law and it is only for the theory of law to define them. They are especially beyond the reach of empirical normgivers, such as legislatures and judicatures. These empirical normgivers, however, have the exclusive authority to make norms, i.e., to stipulate that which ought to be.

    http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2772&context=wmlr

  260. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    If the EU are uncomfortable with supporting Catalans inalienable right to self determination, based on on a referendum they deem as ‘questionable’ due to non participation/claims of illegality, then there is a simple solution.

    The EU could propose there be a fully legitimate, legally binding referendum to settle the issue.

    This would cover the Catalans inalienable rights to self determination, (no constitution taking away that inalienable right is legal if the country is a signatory to U.N. charters concerned by it).

    It would also give Spain closure on the issue if they win, and they keep stating the people do not want it, so here is a chance to prove it.

    If the Catalans refuse to take part in a fully engaged referendum, then the EU can fairly reasonably state they cannot recognise the UDI yesterday, however, if the Madrid government refuse to engage in the process, then the EU simply state that as a result of Spain refusing to recognise the Catalans inalienable rights to self determination, they are obliged to recognise Catalonia as a new independent nation state.

    Surely not unreasonable ?

  261. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Joemcg says: 28 October, 2017 at 1:19 am:

    “Liz and Robert, neither of you has disproved that Scotland’s imaginary “sovereignty” actually exists.”

    Hilarious! Utterly hilarious!

    You postulate that neither Liz or myself have disproved you idiotic claims yet you have offered no proof whatsoever that your idiotic claims are in any way legal fact.

    Considering that it is you making an unsupported claim and both Liz and myself disputing your unsupported claims the onus rests upon you to first prove your claims :-

    The floor is now again yours to prove your unsupported claims and the ball back in your court.

    Let’s have your proof. By the way, no one is claiming that either the country or the kingdom of Scotland is sovereign because legally it is the people of Scotland that are legally sovereign.

    This was established under the, then international authority, of Christendom headed then by the Pope in Rome.

    As sovereignty originates in the belief in, “The Divine right of Kings”, that is God selected his/her/its Earthly representatives by the birth of future monarchs into Royal wombs and thus sovereignty passes down through succession to the next in line to the crown.

    In the Kingdom of Scotland the Declaration of Arbroath, that not only declared Scotland was an independent kingdom but declared that the people, not the monarch, were sovereign, was accepted by God’s accepted prime leaded on Earth who was legally accepted to be infallible on all matters of faith.

    Not until after the reformation was the Pope’s authority challenged but even then the belief that the monarchy was sovereign continued under English law.

    Consequently, during the English parliamentary rebellion of the so called, “Gorious Revolution”, in England, (the Kingdom), they could not legally reject the legal concept that the monarch is sovereign. Indeed the English still refer to their monarch as the sovereign.

    Thus, in 1688, English law was changed in that King Billy & Queen Mary were offered the crown of the English kingdom on the condition that they legally delegated their God Given Sovereignty to the Parliament of, The KINGDOM of England.

    However, in 1688 the Kingdom of Scotland, where the people had been legally sovereign since 1320, was still an independent kingdom and would remain so until after the enforced Treaty of Union of 1706/7. Thus English law was not legal in Scotland in 1688 nor indeed in 1706/7 or now in 2917.

    Thus The Treaty of Union was not only a treaty between two equally sovereign Kingdoms but took account of the legal differences within the Articles of Union.

    There is no doubt the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and modern Scots law reflects that fact. For example it is illegal for any private persons or companies to clamp and demand payment to release a clamped vehicle under Scots law because Scots have legal Right to Roam in Scotland because as sovereign they own Scotland and thus, unlike in the English Kingdom, the Crown does not own everything in Scotland including Her Majesty’s subjects.

    So any legal grabbing of the people’s sovereignty is illegal under Scots law. Thus any such powers taken by Westminster are illegal under Scots law but to prove them so requires that a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland must say so but where would they be required to prove it? Certainly NOT in a Westminster instigated court where the state in the dock was the Westminster parliament that invented that court.

    Which is the reason why ALL Westminster unionists and their propaganda outlets are so bitterly opposed to an indyref2. For the instant that a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland mandate a Scottish parliament to do anything in particular, the Westminster game is legally done.

    Some opinion polls say we already have that majority. We just need the referendum and Westminster cannot legally stop a referendum as referendums are not illegal. Best Westminster can do is to, (previously), state they will not recognise the referendum as other than advisory under English law.

    We do not require their legal permission to hold a referendum.

    Westminster is scared out of its wits – and it shows, Rock. Oops! I mean, Joemcg.

  262. Jack Murphy
    Ignored
    says:

    The BBC spreads and swallows the Madrid/London narrative a few minutes ago:

    “Catalan ex-leader vows to resist takeover”

    A disgraceful degree of presumption and arrogance by the BBC when reporting unbiased news regarding the 130th President of the Generalitat of Catalonia.

    The BBC at it’s finest. 🙁

  263. Bob p
    Ignored
    says:

    David caledonia 12.40pm.no I agree it isnt right,and no doubt the matter Will be fudged.nothing will be done about for fear of appearing to be anti english. So this vote along with ,holiday home owner’s,postal votes etc.will cost us dearly in indy ref2.

  264. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ CaneronB Brodie 1.36 – excellent quote from Martin Luther King – should be circulated widely on twitter. Thx

    Martin Luther King Jr.’s ‘Letter From Birmingham Jail’

    You express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court’s decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, it is rather strange and paradoxical to find us consciously breaking laws. One may well ask, “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: there are just laws, and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “An unjust law is no law at all.” – Martin Luther King Jr.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/04/martin-luther-kings-letter-from-birmingham-jail/274668/

  265. admiral
    Ignored
    says:

    The media still going on about the referendum being “unconstitutional” and, funnily enough, the word “separatists” appears several times in almost every report.

    The elephant in the room is, of course, the Spanish constitution’s clear and unequivocal claim of Gibraltar as an integral part of the Spanish state.

  266. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    This is a clear example of just how under represented the SNP/YES campaign are, within traditional Mainstream media.

    If the MSM were even a tiny bit representative as Social media in regards to the giving a voice to the SNP/YES campaign, independence would be a slam dunk.

    http://archive.is/VU0Cc

  267. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    @admiral, now there is a good point when discussing WM support for Spain in the Catalan situation…

    WM…..”Spainish law/constitution MUST BE UPHELD”

    Response…”So the uk will be handing over Gibralta then” ?

    Ouch !!

  268. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    @admiral, now there is a good point when discussing WM support for Spain in the Catalan situation…

    WM…..”Spanish law/constitution MUST BE UPHELD”

    Response…”So the uk will be handing over Gibralta then” ?

    Ouch !!

  269. stewartb
    Ignored
    says:

    Just came across this: a translation of Catalan President’s speech today courtesy of Liz Castro’s Twitter account:

    https://twitter.com/lizcastro/status/924253736440139776

    She also links to this account of recent political history in Catalonia and its relationship with Spain.

    https://twitter.com/omnium/status/924257842391109633

  270. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    While all eyes are on Catalunya, we should be aware that Kurdistan and Iraq have actually been shooting at each other since the Kurds opted for independence!

    http://www.kurdistan24.net/en/news/9be09aad-0051-4713-8839-27341908a4ca

  271. liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Lenny Hartley @ 12.11
    I am getting it from disagreeing with people who say “like it or lump it” you remain part of the jurisdiction of this particular government.
    Like Spain are doing,and, London try to do!
    Holyrood must not do that to the Scottish Islands,give them a route out if they want it.

    This puts Holyrood into the position that they must govern well for the Islands.
    Just because the Islands don’t have the numbers to ensure that they are valued, can’t mean they don’t have the right to the best government that they can organise.

    This has nothing to do with ethnic origin Lenny and everything to do with learning the lesson of the last 300 & odd year’s.
    Don’t get me wrong I believe that the Scottish Islands would be better to stay with mainland Scotland,and at first would leave with us anyway.
    But they must have the choice to go if they feel that their interests are best served leaving the Holyrood sphere.
    Holyroods job is to ensure that Holyrood is always the best option,and not by a Constitutional dictat mind ye, but rather by a Constitutional understanding that every one accepts the right to self determination carries as much of the weight in the foundations of our Country as Sovereignty does….. Indivisable if ye like!

  272. James Caithness
    Ignored
    says:

    oemcg says:
    28 October, 2017 at 11:15 am
    Liz etc at this moment in time Scotland do not have any sovereign powers ergo we are not sovereign. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand here. We are going round in circles. The Supreme Court case in January confirmed it. Rightly or wrongly we lost it in 1707.
    ==========================================================

    I have to wonder then that when Queen Ezlizabeth II came to the throne and they adorned post boxes and Royal Mail vans with the Crown above the following E II R. The Scottish Patriots blew post boxes up and Westminster was told to remove the E II R from all Mail Vans and post boxes in Scotland because we had never had a queen elizabeth 1. Of course Westminster disputed this but in the end gave in and removed the offending signage. Now if the people weren’t sovereign why would they have given in and done that?

    Also in the 70’s there was a stooshie which would have caused a constitutional crisis, that was them trying to tell Fife Council to change their name. The council refused, westminster backed down so as not to test the constitutional argument.

  273. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    geeo @ 14:00:

    The EU could propose there be a fully legitimate, legally binding referendum to settle the issue.

    This would cover the Catalans’ inalienable rights to self determination […]

    It would also give Spain closure on the issue if they win […] so here is a chance to prove it.

    It’s so staringly obvious a way out that you cannot help but wonder why it’s not happening.

    The answer, alas, is equally obvious. One of the sides genuinely fears the expected result. And we all know which one.

    So instead we get this media drizzle that the last one was “illegal” and a “majority didn’t vote” (babes, refuseniks and dead all together against).

    All of it presumptous and mendacious distraction from an issue that could so easily – and should – be put to a proper vote so the whole world can see where things truly stand.

  274. Lenny Hartley
    Ignored
    says:

    Liz g, regions do not hAve a right to self determination , people do.
    Simples really

  275. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Pacman says: 28 October, 2017 at 9:41 am:

    ” … I am just pointing out the facts here and now and how other people view the position of Scotland at this present time.”

    Nah! You are still not getting the right of it. The point is that the Westminster claims are not only illegal under the independent laws of THE KINGDOM Scotland but mostly also under the still independent KINGDOM of England.

    I’ll put that in absolute terms for you. The Treaty of Union is the treaty that formed the United Kingdom and its title remains, £The United KINGDOM>.

    Yet Westminster is not being run as a United Kingdom.

    It is being run as the, (unelected as such), de facto Parliament of the COUNTRY of England.

    Thus that, unelected as such, de facto parliament of the Kingdom of England, (It uses EVEL to enforce English supremacy), while still calling itself the United KINGDOM government, (and sometimes even the government of all of Britain). Yet it has demoted the KINGDOM of Scotland to be just another one of the countries that the pre-Union Kingdom of England had as English Dominions. i.e. The Statute of Rhuddlan, (1248), that made Wales a dominion of the Kingdom of England and the (1542), Crown of Ireland Act that annexed all Ireland.

    There are no such English Kingdom legal actions that made Scotland, (either Kingdom or country), an English Dominion.

    Now consider these facts and not just the Kingdom of England, (Westminster), claims.

    In 1603 England found itself with the prospect of becoming legally, (under the then current law of England), part of the Kingdom of Scotland as the next in line for the English throne was James VI. Now the law of England then was still, “The Divine Right of Kings”, under which a monarch defeating another monarch in war just tacked that kingdom onto his/her existing kingdom. As did a male marrying into another kingdoms monarchy or inheriting another monarchy.

    Yet the countries of the Kingdom of England, in spite of still today claiming there was a Union of the Crowns, never became part of the Kingdom of Scotland. The reason being that James VI of Scotland was not, under Scots law, a sovereign monarch. He thus could neither give what he did not own to the Kingdom he was inheriting nor, (under English law), give away his English Sovereignty to Scotland because English law had ruled that Sovereignty belongs to the Kingdom and not to the monarch.

    Which English law is still in force today. You will note that when the King of England decided, (or was forced), to give up the crown he, “abdicated”, i.e. it instantly passed to the next in line. The declaration on the death of an English Monarch is announced as, “The King is dead – Long live the King”. That is the monarchy instantly passes to the next in line but the next in line may refuse the crow which then passes to the next again in line and, under English law, the next in line, (since 1688), must legally delegate their sovereign powers, (while remaining legally sovereign), to the Parliament of England – not you will note – the United Kingdom parliament but here is the thing. There hasn’t been,(an elected as such), Parliament of England since the instant a United Kingdom Parliament began on 1st May 1707.

    Westminster has just appointed itself as a de facto parliament of England and runs the United Kingdom as if it were a union of four countries all ruled by a de facto parliament of England that does not legally exist – and cannot exist because no one has been elected to a parliament of England.

    Which is why we have this nonsense:-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OIRUr4R7GQ

    No half-decent international court could fail to rule Westminster illegal. It is operating as the Parliament of England but claims to be the United Kingdom Government and there are only two kingdoms that signed the Treaty of Union.

  276. One_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    I cannot believe how painfully obvious BBC News are about wanting Spain to crush Catalonia. Really is a sad state of affairs that this is Scotland’s main news outlet.

  277. liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Lenny Hartley @ 2.53
    Couldn’t agree more…..and if the Scottish Islanders want to jettison Holyrood as an Identifiable People’s they surely can.
    I would support a Hawaiian right to tell Washington we are leaving…. wouldn’t you?

  278. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Robert Peffers

    Good stuff there, Mr Peffers.

    I would like to ask something of you. Can you devise a QUESTION that can demonstrate how the present ‘legal’ constitutional arrangement of the UK is adversely impacting on our Scottish rights that is contrary to the provisions of the Treaty/Act of Union?

    If such a very goo test question can be devised, perhaps it might be possible that we could Crowd Fund a petition to the Court of Session / Supreme Court. And hopefully then get this constitutional dog’s breakfast decided once and for all.

    Yupffurrit?

  279. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Robert Peffers –

    ‘It is being run as the, (unelected as such), de facto Parliament of the COUNTRY of England.’

    For people who get fed-up with the constitutional debates (or struggle to understand them) the current situation helps bring it all into focus – it is simply intolerable for any Tory spokesperson or Whitehall mandarin to say that the ‘UK does not recognise the independence of Catalonia’. If they want to say ‘England doesn’t recognise Catalonia’, fair enough, but they daren’t do so.

    Instead, they simply pretend that there is no Scottish government when important events require a political response.

    Fucking sick of it…

    🙁

  280. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Lenny Hartley says:

    regions do not hAve a right to self determination , people do

    In theory yes, but in practise there has to be a sensible geographical line drawn, relationship with neighbours, and an element of size. Otherwise, you end up with peculiar enclaves or new states which aren’t viable.

    In IndyRef2 if say Perthshire voted NO with a big majority then vocal and well organised Tories fought to remain an enclave of iEngland, or indeed to be independent, would that be right/sensible/appropriate?

    A mainly rural/agriculture area currently reliant on surrounding areas for services and employment, doesn’t make sense.

    So in the real world, non human geography and economics, has to be considered too.

  281. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    I should add, I am specifically looking to a test question that can be presented to court that will force them to decide on the Scottish Sovereignty issue that engages and perplexes so many on this board (and elsewhere).

  282. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    One_Scot says:
    28 October, 2017 at 3:17 pm
    I cannot believe how painfully obvious BBC News are about wanting Spain to crush Catalonia. Really is a sad state of affairs that this is Scotland’s main news outlet.

    Twas BBC r4 vote tory Today show’s 60th birthday today and they just destroyed the “separatists” of Spain. Beeb gimps are repulsive unless you’re a blue/red tory or a yoon but Today show monstering was the worst for a long time.

    But oddly enough, not half as aggressive as the BBC World Service. Bloody hell, shitheads like the Raj must have been a waking nightmare.

  283. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    liz g @ 14:42,

    A few salient points about the “islands”, etc.

    + There is no doubt about sovereignty. The writ of Scots Law runs on all the islands just as as on the mainland.

    + “Crown Colony status” for Shetland and other such notions were all astroturf operations in which the FibDems in particular appear to have had a big hand.

    (That is not to say that there is no-one who is for independence of their own wee island or other, but there is no significant demand for that. The “Shetland independence movement” =cough= is operated by some Englishman who lives somewhere in Argyll, I seem to recall.)

    + You can’t reduce the notion of independence to a fine-grain absurdity. I can’t suddenly declare that I am a proud citizen of Sutherlandia and expect to be taken seriously and feted by the world’s powers, now can I? Breeks‘ point about Passport to Pimlico stands. There has to be a reasonable expectation of viability as well as popular support behind any independence movement.

    + One mustn’t confuse good governance with independence. I agree with you that part of the point of Scottish independence is to change the way that we *all* are governed, and not merely to replace Westminster/London with a facsimile in Holyrood/Edinburgh. But not to extend the principle to breaking point by disintegrating the country into a thousand un-coordinated fragments. Some kind of sensible and appropriate further devolution is another matter entirely.

    That’s why I don’t take every “separatist” movement within Europe seriously, and nor should we. Some are vehicles for nasty right-wing movements and/or local shit-stirrers with a personal grievance and no visible means of support. To be taken seriously, we must also be discriminating.

    Catalonia on the other hand has all the necessary fundamentals, and deserves our full support and best wishes.

  284. liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    James Caithness @ 2.42
    Excellent points James….
    This stuff has always been kept out of the Courts!
    Or very narrowly ruled upon.
    As Robert j Sutherland above was pointing out the obvious resolutions are not allowed to be explored because one side fears the results.
    A child could see that a fair and free vote would settle the matter for Spain and Catilonia….and a fair and free vote would settle this for Scotland too.
    And by fair and free I mean all the information available to us, aswell as everyone else minding there own business till those with a vote have chosen…..that result I might not like but I would not argue with!

  285. Glamaig
    Ignored
    says:

    Im trying to keep an open mind on what the EU is and isnt, and can and cant do. But this is too much. I see Guy Verhofstadt has called Catalonias independence ‘fake’

    Thats quite rich coming from a Belgian.

    ‘The Belgian Revolution was the conflict which led to the secession of the southern provinces (mainly the former Southern Netherlands) from the United Kingdom of the Netherlands and the establishment of an independent Kingdom of Belgium.’

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Revolution

  286. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    O/T completely, but on RT’s Keiser report there was just a discussion on how Academy Trusts in England are asset stripping millions of pounds before collapsing.

    In particular, the case of Wakefield City Academies Trust…

    “The trust now stands accused of “asset stripping” after it transferred millions of pounds of the school’s savings to it’s own accounts before collapsing.

    On 8th september, it released a statement announcing it would divest itself of it’s 21 schools as it could not undertake the “rapid improvement our academies need”.

    It said that new sponsors would be found to take them over.
    ……….

    Part of a wider discussion on lack of local government losing control of housing and schools but being left to foot the bill when things go wrong.

    More stuff you rarely hear about on uk media.

  287. Proud Cybernat
    Ignored
    says:

    BREAKING from Pravda Quay
    with Jackie Kim Ono

    https://imgur.com/a/fOR2z

  288. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Cooper ruling 1953 established Sovereignty.

    Blair’s Supreme Court tries to deny Scotland acces to Humam rights appeal to ECHR because (London) Supreme Court can’t overrule Scottish Court decision. Sovereignty resides with the separate Scottish legal system forever. Unless agreement by representatives of both countries. It breaks the terms of the Union. Scotland being denied equal human rights. Westminster unionists breaking the Law. They make the Law and break the Law. Have illegal privileges above the Law. Illegal secrecy. They keep their criminality hidden under the Official Secrets Act. Unlawful.

    Holyrood will refuse to endorse the Westminster attempted power grab. Lead to stalemate. Only 1/3 support Brexit. Trouble for the unionists.

  289. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    liz g says:

    a fair and free vote would settle the matter for Spain and Catilonia….and a fair and free vote would settle this for Scotland too.

    Indeed. My definition of “fair and free” would be yours, i.e. for those living within the nations being able to debate and chose with a balanced/mixed informative media plus little external interference.

    However, Spain and UK have very strong reasons to oppose independence, so things inevitably move away from the ideal. For both nations, Scotland and Catalonia, the best we can hope for is to overcome the interference in the democratic process and triumph in spite of the unfairness.

    With genuine “fair and free” voting, it’s hard to see Scotland and Catalonia not becoming independent. And therein lies the reason why Spain and UK will ‘play dirty’ in their own distinctive villainous ways.

  290. liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert j Sutherland @ 3.35
    I actually agree with you that this independance from Scotland by some on the Islands is shit stirring of the worst kind.
    And I did say that they would leave with us at first anyway.

    Obviously ….they have a vote after all….so they are clearly part of us,and fall under the jurisdiction of Scottish Law.

    What I am trying to say that we should head off,is the idea that the mainland is all for self determination except for when it comes to it actually affecting us.
    Which I think is being planted now in the islands.

    I and I think you, know that this movement is not about self determination for the Islands.
    But rather convincing them to stay with Westminster,or at the very least allowing the Idea that if they Vote no it’s being ignored.
    Yes or No they are still always out voted, another wee bit of discontent planted,no quite as powerful as Sectarianism but every little helps.
    Well
    I am saying that we set up a proper system in which it’s perfectly clear that the Islands are represented and cannot be overuled but within that system there must be the choice to reject it too.
    I don’t think that they are self sufficient and I don’t think that they get a good deal from Westminster either.
    So we have to make them a better offer and always let them choose,what we can’t do is say “like it or lump it” your a part of us and you can’t afford to leave.
    Or worse case scenario….we write a Constitution that says they can’t.

  291. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Love Ghillie & Liz g ~

    It’s Saturday.

    Fuck Rajoy and ahoy!

    Ah took the recommendations of oor William Wallace…

    Ahm on a beach somewhere on our East Scotland.

    Restraint..? NEVER!

    Ahm on the sand.

    Love the love.

  292. stewartb
    Ignored
    says:

    Regarding the discussion on who has rights to self-determination, this from the UN may be of some interest.:

    The extracts below are taken from this UN source:

    http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/69/272&Submit=Search&Lang=E

    “4. At the outset, it is useful to clarify that the rights holders of self-determination are peoples, a concept that has never been conclusively defined, notwithstanding its frequent use in United Nations forums.

    Participants at a UNESCO expert meeting on self-determination endorsed what has been called the ‘Kirby definition’, recognizing as a ‘people’ a group of persons with a common historical tradition, racial or ethnic identity, cultural homogeneity, linguistic unity, religious or ideological affinity, territorial connection, or common economic life. To this should be added a subjective element: the will to be identified as a people and the consciousness of being a people.

    A people must be numerically greater than just ‘a mere association of individuals within the State’. Their claim becomes more compelling if they have established institutions or other means of expressing their common characteristics and identity. In plain language, the concept of ‘peoples’ embraces ethnic, linguistic and religious minorities, in addition to identifiable groups living under alien domination or under military occupation, and indigenous groups who are deprived of autonomy or sovereignty over their natural resources.”

    And the UN document also states:

    “75. Secession presupposes the capacity of a territory to emerge as a functioning member of the international community. In this context, the four statehood criteria of the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States (1933) are relevant: a permanent population; a defined territory; government; and the capacity to enter into relations with other States. The size of the population concerned and the economic viability of the territory are also relevant. A democratic form of government that respects human rights and the rule of law strengthens the entitlement.

    The recognition of a new State entity by other States is desirable but it has declaratory, not constitutive, effect.”

    There needs to be some internationally recognised, ‘sensible’ standards here or else we get into the realm of the so-called ‘sovereign citizen’ favoured by a notable minority movement of extreme libertarians and survivalists in the USA. In one definition, from Wikipedia:

    “Self-described sovereign citizens take the position that they are answerable only to their particular interpretation of the common law and are not subject to any government statutes or proceedings.”

  293. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    At liz-g.

    Further to your point, during any indyref, the country being potentially left behind should not be interfering with the process…

    From UN charter on self determination and decolonization.
    ……….
    “Welcoming the emergence in recent years of a large number of dependent territories into freedom and independence, and recognizing the increasingly powerful trends towards freedom in such territories which have not yet attained independence”
    ………..

    2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
    …………

    4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.
    ………..

    It is my view that to resolve the Catalan question, there MUST be a U.N./EU sanctioned indyref.

    If not, because of Madrid, then Catalonia simply MUST be recognised by U.N./EU.

    If not, because of the Catalans refusing, (unlikely)
    then the U.N./EU can reasonably refuse to recognise Catalonia as an independent state.

    I can see no other realistic solution which maintains the integrity of the U.N./EU.

    If those organisations fail to act on their own articles and charters, then they are finished and open up the possibility of violent insurrection to gain independence.

    They surely cannot afford that to happen.

  294. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Lenny Hartley says: 28 October, 2017 at 12:11 pm:

    “Liz g don’t know where you get this route out for the islands if they want it, like it or lump it they are part of Scotland, they are not a different ethnic grouping. All this jacke bailey about being Norse is just that Pish.”

    Didn’t want to interfere in a wee dispute between two Wingers but a wee bit of common sense is needed to understand that particular can of worms.

    First of all the Holyrood government must uphold its own good reputation for fairness and doing things in a democratic manner.

    Thus they must uphold the right of any distinguishable group of people to claim the right of self determination. The SNP/SG already do so and they promise the Scottish islanders much more say in their own affairs.

    As for the Islanders themselves. There really is no real moves for self determination to the extent of separation from Scotland. There are, perhaps a couple, of nut jobs one of which actually claims a tiny island he inhabits is an independent state. The other is a few political figures who keep that daft pot boiling for their own personal political ends.

    So no serious claims for independence from Scotland. The whole issue is really down to practicalities. If any Scottish Island with a couple of exceptions lie well with the Scottish 12 mle territorial waters or on the 200mile Scottish continental shelf.

    None thus would be other than an Enclave within Scottish jurisdiction by the International Law of the Seas. Thus their legal rights would consist of a territorial border half way between them and the mainland or 12 miles whichever is greater.

    That means the Enclave would end with hardly any territorial waters and an obligatory free shipping lane to allow access to open waters. It would also mean they had closed borders to the mainland and require passport and visa to get access to the mainland.

    Then there is the Electricity Grid, Fresh water, gas and communications connections. Also they would have nothing by way of continental shelf mineral resources and would probably lose the oil & gas handling infrastructure of the oil & gas industry and also their access to fishing grounds.

    The Islanders are generally not daft – there is no serious move for independence from Scotland but a definite wish for more control of their own governance.

    The SG are also not daft and they will do what they can to devolve powers but they will tell the islanders they have the right of self determination – if they are daft enough to ask for it democratically.

  295. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Breeks says: 28 October, 2017 at 12:27 pm:

    ” … in an African country seceded, but left the continuing country with greatly reduced access to fresh water. Shouldn’t the people being left without water have a say in the secession?”

    People should do some research before commenting. There are well defined ,Internationally agreed, laws covering both sea enclosed and land-locked Enclaves.

    In fact there are only three completely landlocked enclaves in the entire World :-

    The Republic of San Marino:
    The Kingdom of Lesotho:
    and The Vatican City.

  296. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Si we.

  297. gus1940
    Ignored
    says:

    The bastards at The BBC are headlining ‘ex-Catalan Leader’.

  298. liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert Peffers @ please feel free to chip in….. I have to go out in 5 mins anyway.
    ……….
    Geeo @ 4.16 Sometimes I wonder if Violence is exactly how they want to settle things…. espically Westminster,they know violence and they are much better at it than us.
    But they shan’t have it…not if I have anything to say about it!
    …………..
    Galamcennalath @ 4.01
    I think that we should be shouting from the rooftops next time……mind yer ain business ….and why should we be paying any attention to those who don’t have a vote,do they have an agenda here…..
    Try interviewing somebody with an actual vote in this!
    That kind of stuff.
    ………….
    Stewartb @ 4.09
    I do agree with what you are saying.
    And I understand how mad it could get if ye take the concept of Sovereignty to it’s limits…..outer limits at that!
    The Manson and Jim Jones type cult’s come to mind but that that type of opt out is no what I am advocating as Sovereignty.
    I have always said that Sovereignty is a kind of trinity (I know) it has to include political and legal as well as popular, otherwise it is just mob rule.
    ………..
    Last but not least….as I really have to go .. sorry..
    I Love you too Cactus X

  299. Scot Finlayson
    Ignored
    says:

    Brent Crude (which is the benchmark premium oil)now selling at over $60pb is being traded around the world making loads of people,companies and countries rich,

    Brent Crude is a blend of North Sea `sweet and light` oils from Norwegian and Scottish wells/platforms,

    Norway has amassed a $1,000,000,000,000 pension/future fund which through investments has in the third quarter of 2017 returned $23,500,000,000,

    that`s $23.5 billion in one quarter of the year,the money made from the actual oil($22billion this year) is secondary to the pension portfolio,

    could`ve been us if it wasnt for Scottish media lies printed out for decades,nowt lower on this earth than a Scottish journalist.

  300. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    guy verhofstadt and the eu getting pelters on social media from yessers

    i’m disappointed too but i agree with salmond that the eu cant/wont side with catalunya against one of its own memberstates but that they could and should have condemned the violence

    i’m not really sure what happens now, some mayors already saying they will boycott new elections. they dont trust rajoy.

    pro indy parties got 60% in 2015 on a 75% turnout. i cant see rajoy allowing any of them to stand

  301. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    brent crude is a standard with an API of 38

    different crude oils are compared to it for quality/price comparisons

    the name “Brent” comes from the naming policy of Shell which named all of its fields after birds (the brent goose) But it is also a backronym or mnemonic for the formation layers of the oil field: Broom, Rannoch, Etive, Ness and Tarbert.

  302. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    eu negotiators have offered the uk more talks in december, twice, but have had no reply………

  303. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Greetings from oor east coastline. Prestonpans.

    Tis a very defined half moon ra night…

    Aooooow!

  304. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    @Cactus

    … and a nice sunset foretelling of a decent day the morrrow. 🙂

  305. Robert Graham
    Ignored
    says:

    I don’t see the point of those people in the centre of Madrid waving their Spanish flags festooned with Non or No on them , don’t they see the stupidity of advocating mass hostage and subsequent subduction of millions of people, do they want a mass prison.

    The whole situation mirrors the plight of a certain country that’s not so distant, The Spanish government will take control of TV and Radio stations, the Print media will be brought into line and only promote a government message, Getting the message yet ? Does the situation resonate,

    Westminster are and have been doing the same as Son of Franco in Spain, minus the obvious introduction of hired thugs, imprisonment by a more subtle means, is still imprisonment , waken up .

  306. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    In the last couple of hours the various ‘Mayors’ of the regions of Catalonia have pledged their allegiance to the Government of the Catalan Republic only.

    Catalan radio addressed ‘Citizens and Citizenesses of Catalunya’ – .. no more Subjects as it’s a Republic

    The Catalan Government has ignored Rahoy’s statement allegedly removing them from office and have carried on normal business today including approval of various new roads and transport schemes worth 9.5 million euros..

    The Police earlier today took down the Spanish Flag and people have gone about their business as a normal Saturday.

    Meetings tonight (just now) and tomorrow morning to show support for the peaceful democratic regime of Puigdemont’s government.

    ‘Mossos’ – local police have said that protecting and guaranteeing the safety of people is our priority today

    Found a vote result paper:
    Yes: 2,020,144 (89.219% of votes counted)
    No: 176,565 (7.804% of votes counted)

    Voting started at 9.00 am; 4 hours later turnout was 39.4% with 7 hours of voting left.
    Blank: 65,715
    Confiscated: 770,000

    Turnout incl confiscated: 3,032,424 (56.75%)

    Total votes counted : 2,262,424
    Total on Electoral role: 5,343,4378

    Estimated confiscated Yes votes: 687,541
    Estimated confiscated No votes: 60,091

    Estimated total Yes vote: 2,707,685
    Estimated total No vote: 236,656

  307. Lenny Hartley
    Ignored
    says:

    Liz g re Hawaii, it’s a state in a Federal system , different kettle of fish, the principle of self determination is based on people not territories , Hawaiians are demonstratably an identifiable people but even if they were not they are currently a state in there own right so off course if they wanted to leave the Union they can, nothing is stopping them, there is a growing movement in California to leave the United States, they are already a state , so can do what they want.
    Btw I totally agree that limited devolution of powers to the Islands in an Independent Scotland is a good thing, I’m a born and bred Islander myself, I wish we could dump North Ayrshire. But there also should be devolution of some powers to all the regions of Scotland

  308. Shinty
    Ignored
    says:

    Cactus – McPherson’s Lantern!

  309. Alastair
    Ignored
    says:

    Rajoy’s party at the last general election won 33% on a turnout of 66.5% giving them a popular mandate of 21.74%

    Total registered to vote 36,520,913
    Turnout 66.5%
    Share of vote 7,941,234 or 33%
    % to registered voters 21.74%

  310. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Derek Bateman has some wise words on the general stupidity of These Isles having English academics pronounce what is best for we Sweaties. Also, just how elusive any case for their Union is.

    What is this Union for? Bu99ered if I can see any use!

    http://derekbateman.scot/2017/10/26/who-shot-jfk/

  311. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    catalunya elections August 2015 75% turnout
    % seats
    *Together for Yes 1,628,714 39.59 –4.82 62 –9
    *Catalonia Yes We Can 367,613 8.94 –0.96 11 –2
    *Popular Unity Candidacy337,794 8.21 +4.73 10 +7
    *Democratic Union 103,293 2.51 New 0±0
    59.25

    Citizens–Party 736,364 17.90 +10.33 25 +16
    Socialists’ Party 523,283 12.72 –1.67 16 –4
    People’s Party (PP) 349,193 8.49 –4.49 11 –8

    * = support indy

    not all the indy parties agree with the method, route to indy etc. but after the spanish agression, i doubt that is still the case

  312. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Dan Hull at 11:56pm …..”Scotland’s Oil.”

    That chart says it all Dan. Westminster politicians, past and present, should be hanging their heads in shame. In fact if I was Nicola Sturgeon I’d stick that chart under Ruth Davidson’s (and others) nose every time she has the brass neck to open her mouth and complain about failing this and failing that. Westminster’s “failings” have cost the Scots dearly.

    This is one issue, of many, that I’d use to initiate International legal proceedings against Westminster and that is that they have mismanaged and squandered the Sovereign people of Scotland’s natural resources and wealth. Nicola of course has far too much on her plate to do so right now. There’s also the hellish prospect that we’d lose due to some wee loophole, so best left for another day. However when we get our Independence any ‘bills’ that we’re deemed to pay should be offset by the £600 billion (as per Alex Russell) that they’ve robbed from us and if it came to pass that we didn’t win the next Referendum (not going to happen) then go for the Court case, with nothing to lose.

    ………………….

    @Geeo at 2:28pm …..

    Thanks for that link Geeo. We’re hammering / outwitting the MSM / Unionists online. Fairly cheered me up.

    ………………………..

    @ Proud Cybernat …..”Jackie Kim Ono.”

    Brilliant stuff PC. And there’s endless, ongoing material for you to use, so keep them coming. Short and sweet, but with the potential to have massive influence.

    …………………………

    @ Cactus at 4:08pm …. “Ah took the recommendations of our Wiliam Wallace.”

    Again? As can be witnessed night after night with him (her?) “egging” you on. If nothing else an interesting study of online interaction.

    ………………………

    @ Breeks …..

    Some good posts Breeks on the complexities that face the EU in relation to basket case secessions, in particular if you reach the point of demanding a Passport to Pimlico. A real dilemma alround, especially as there are people within such movements whose main aim is to bring the EU down.

    If there’s a lesson to be learned from this situation it’s that the days of States exploiting / ignoring / trying to decimate the culture and language of a people is over. It’s also something the SNP should take on board in consideration of the Islanders. More visits, more links, more powers for them taking into account the limited powers that we have to devolve at this time.

    And the lesson for us, imo, is that as we sympathise and support the Catalonians we also have to ensure that the differences between us are made clear, such as Scotland is a Kingdom, the Scottish people are Sovereign, the UK has no written constitution, Scotland was an Independent nation for around 1000 years before entering into an agreement with England, mutual or forced. This has to be clarified because if not the Unionists will use the Catalan situation to scaremonger, as is their forte.

    ……………………………………….

    On the news. Pro-Independence politicians acknowledging stalemate and with powers being stripped from them see it leading to a case in the International Court, which they say they’ll win. They are also waiting to see if Puigdemont turns up for work on Monday and if so will he be arrested.

    Accusations of sexual harassment at Westminster, surprise, surprise, is said to be leading inevitably to heads rolling / resignations. Let’s hope that Gove and Johnston, for starters, have been bad boys.

  313. One_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    Lol, can only think that the BBC and the British Establishment machinery are bricking themselves about Catalonia due the upcoming ScotRef, and they have therefore went for the full scale propaganda brainwashing mode.

  314. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    schrodingers cat says:

    not all the indy parties agree with the method, route to indy etc. but after the spanish agression, i doubt that is still the case

    Saw a report, on France24 yesterday I think, where an expert on Catalonia was saying that some politicians who favoured more devolution within Spain have now switched to Indy.

    Sounds like the ‘gradualists’ have been accelerated by Spain’s antics.

  315. Croompenstein
    Ignored
    says:

    The union can be summed up by the words of David Cameron on the steps of Downing Street on the 19th September 2014..

    English votes for English folks..
    Now get to fuck you sweaty soacks…

    it was something like that 🙂

  316. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Petra: “ Pro-Independence politicians acknowledging stalemate and with powers being stripped from them see it leading to a case in the International Court, which they say they’ll win. They are also waiting to see if Puigdemont turns up for work on Monday and if so will he be arrested.

    yes, seems to be the next logical step. Not sure if it shouldn’t also go to the Spanish Constitutional court followed by the ECJ as well.

  317. One_Scot
    Ignored
    says:

    When you think about it, how could Catalonia ever go back to the mindset that they would be better off under the control of Spain, given the way Spain has treated and abused them.

  318. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    Would love to see Nicola Sturgeon rock up to an interview and as soon as the comparison is made to Catalonia, simply state that if the uk gov wishes to find out the difference then lets meet up in a Scottish court to define Sovereignty of Scottish people and how that would affect their precious union.

    The reason i mention this, is that there seems to have been a desperation to avoid interviewing the SNP/YES movement figures since the Catalan declaration.

    They (unionists) have gone from non stop banging on about Scottish independence, demanding referendum dates/announcements, to going full retard over Catalonia.

    Want an insight to independence ? Ask the SNP…if you dare.

  319. Jock McDonnell
    Ignored
    says:

    A we Estrella or two tonight, small things matter.

  320. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    John H.,

    “If we have any real friends then they are in Scandinavia, and I believe that’s where we should look to in future.”

    Rock (18th June 2015 – “Tossing your chips”):

    “Iceland, a decent, democratic country which jailed the criminal bankers and got its economy back up again without as much austerity as here, where the national debt has actually increased.

    Iceland, the country that Gordon Brown used anti terrorist laws against to protect his criminal bankers.

    Alex Salmond was ridiculed during the referendum campaign for having said a long time ago that Iceland was one of the countries an independent Scotland could aspire to be like.

    But as always, he was right. If we had let the banks go bust and jailed our criminal bankers, we plebs wouldn’t have suffered.

    So there is one country who publicly supported our cause.

    Thank you Iceland.”

  321. Dave McEwan Hill
    Ignored
    says:

    Maybe we can all help Ken500. He seems unable to answer the simple questions I keep putting to him.
    Let me put them as simply as I can.

    “Should the people of Catalonia have a free and fair referendum to decide their constitutional status and how they are governed?”

    “Why will Rajoy not agree to this”

  322. William Wallace
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Petra

    “Again? As can be witnessed night after night with him (her?) “egging” you on.

    What?

    Cactus is his own man. I don’t egg him on but, I do appreciate his contributions. I’m usually worse than him tbh but, I don’t hold him responsible for my drunken shenanigans in the same way you should not be holding me responsible for his.

    If nothing else an interesting study of online interaction.

    Really?

    We are not subjects in a lab. 🙂

    One day I might just surprise you by discarding my inner drunken fool and talking sense for a change.

    Then again, there are enough people doing that on here anyway. Sometimes a little drunken hilarity is good and I do tend to keep it to off-topic as much as possible. Unless the Yoons are taking over the MT late night where a little hilarity/stupidity can be good for derailing them.

    Anyway. Peace.

  323. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    Serious Q – has anyone here ever had a crow try to land on their head?

    Happened to me today on Stevenston beach, the fekker came at me from behind…

    🙁

  324. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Aviemore is lovely this time of year too. JC kicks separatist arse, in his “region.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-scotland-rebirth-snp-general-election-a8024966.html

    “We want a deal that works for Scotland and all parts of the UK, and respects the devolution settlement by ensuring that powers returning from Brussels go directly to Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast rather than being hoarded in Westminster,” he said.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

    TeamGB be crazy:D

  325. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “I defined Scotland as legally a sovereign people.”

    Joemcg,

    “Robert Peffers we have covered this before. Scotland has no sovereign powers.The Supreme Court overruled any Scottish say on article 50 back in January.”

    Joemcg,

    “Liz and Robert, neither of you has disproved that Scotland’s imaginary “sovereignty” actually exists. The brass tacks are that we could not stop article 50. End of. The Supreme Court, an English construct, put us in our place.”

    Joemcg, you are of course 100% correct.

    Robert Peffers (20th December 2015 – Transparency and accountability):

    “It is established legal fact and has several legal precedents that the People of Scotland are sovereign”

    Rock:

    “It is now also an “established legal fact” that a UK minister can lie with impunity and can still remain a legally elected Scottish MP.

    The law is always on the side of the establishment and against the “plebs”.

    Prove your “sovereignty” by starting impeachment proceedings against the purring queen.

    Or shut up if you can’t state what the procedure is for “sovereign” Scots to impeach the purring monarch.

    The Scots have absolutely no power to impeach the monarch. Their “sovereignty” is not worth the paper it is written on.”

  326. Croompenstein
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ian

    Wiz it a hoodie ? 🙂

  327. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @Croompenstein –

    😉

  328. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    Sounds like the ‘gradualists’ have been accelerated by Spain’s antics.
    —————

    i think we could all foresee that happening, rajoy played this badly, there was a moment when spain could have won an indyref in catalunya, but that option is gone now.

    difficult to see how even remotely fair elections can now be held there without producing embaressing results for spain.

    i think he may well park tanks on catalunya’s lawn but that could backfire on rajoy, not just in spain, but across europe.

  329. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “I’ve listened to more than enough bullshit on the subject of sovereignty from a bunch of fools that I suspect are all either Rock or his/her sock puppets.”

    You are an aggressive verbal bully here and almost certainly a nasty person in real life.

    If you are as clever as you think, why don’t you have your own site to flog your “knowledge”?

    Instead of contaminating every article on someone else’s website with your verbal diarrhoea.

    Why haven’t you ever written a book on the history of the union?

  330. Jock McDonnell
    Ignored
    says:

    BBC refusing to countenance the very idea of Catalan independence. ‘Separatists’.
    They can’t accept it, UDI has been declared, Madrid can’t depose anybody. Its over for Madrid, they can’t make the Catalan’s stay. Save face maybe, but its too late.

    Catalan independence must be entrenched, even if only to stick it to the BBC.

  331. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Graun giving all new and exciting These Islands, massive Graun boosting, is only interesting in that they seem to prefer a dog food salesman’s new club for tory yoons to Scotland in Union.

    http://archive.is/5beua

    “In other words, and not forgetting that “these islands” allows the inclusion of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands as well as the Irish Republic in any discussion, this is a broadly pro-unionist body that believes that the United Kingdom has more to offer its constituent parts than the comfort of subsidies distributed by the Barnett formula, afforded from taxes raised largely in the City of London.”

    Graun’s “broadly” pro indy is very sneaky creepy Graun tory.

  332. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    From Catalans for YES with the clocks going back tonight:

    Coming to Spain soon? Remember, at 3 a.m., it will be 1939.

  333. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    @Rock
    Which one?

  334. Tinto Chiel
    Ignored
    says:

    Is that you rooked again, Ian B?

    Or were you jay-walking?

    I’ll get my…..

    😛

  335. mike d
    Ignored
    says:

    Heedtracker7.55pm. Corbyn says liebor are now a force for change.wtf! They couldnt f****g change a nappy. And anyone who votes for/or is taken in by these shysters,has got more sh*t for brains than the aforementioned nappy.

  336. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Catalan independence must be entrenched, even if only to stick it to the BBC

    They’re clearly venting massive britnat tory frustrations in beeb gimp central with C______a. Its how beeb Scotland network works over Scottish democracy, and now its C_____a’s turn.

  337. PacMan
    Ignored
    says:

    schrodingers cat @ 28 October, 2017 at 5:52 pm

    i’m disappointed too but i agree with salmond that the eu cant/wont side with catalunya against one of its own memberstates but that they could and should have condemned the violence

    Britain voted to leave the EU, AFD has won seats in the German state parliament, Marine Le Pen was second in the French presidential elections and there is anger in East European countries about taking in refugees. Given the level of feeling against it throughout Europe at the moment, I’m not sure that the EU would want to interfere in the internal matters of one of the countries.

    I could be totally wrong as most likely their position of non-interference is due to not wanting to upset the markets as mentioned by previous posters.

    A thought though, while they won’t interfere in the internal matters of a member country, that doesn’t mean that they can not interfere in an ex member country. If there is a hard Brexit, they may give signals that if we went independent we would be fast tracked to become a member state. That would send a message to the member countries. that they will not support indy movements as long as they stay part of the EU.

    Of course this is pure speculation at best but there is a certain logic to it so who knows.

  338. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    The more the thread detractors detract is usually a decent indication of how panicked they are.

    They are seemingly apoplectic tonight…less and less to say, other than abuse.

    That makes us all happy.

    Keep it up chaps…har har..!

  339. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Edging ever so slightly back towards the main topic, I see from The National today that the comrades of the northern accounting unit of the party of brotherly love are still knocking blocks off each other in their eagerness to see who will capture the poisoned chalice first.

    (Sounds like a video game now that I see it in cold print like that. =grin=)

    And has the Islington Saviour finally decided yet if he can declare his solidarity with Spanish socialists and the oh-so-utterly-legal Madrid regime, or is he still preoccupied with the plight of the upper Andean basket-weavers…?

  340. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “McDuff at 8.21

    Disagree entirely, McDuff. You appear to have missed the point that the UK is leaving the EU and Scotland wants to remain. Catalonia doesn’t want to leave the EU either.”

    In case you have missed it, the European Commission and powerful leaders of EU member states have made it perfectly clear that an independent Catalonia is not welcome in the EU.

    Scotland is the North Britain region of the UK as far as the EU is concerned.

    Unless you can show me a list of EU members which includes Scotland.

    If Nicola had not spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen – Scotland would have been on the verge of independence now and applying to join the EU.

    The brave Catalonians have exposed “sovereign” Scots as the wimps they are.

  341. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    mike d says:
    28 October, 2017 at 8:12 pm
    Heedtracker7.55pm.

    Hope Anas wins too. Anas is a fine example of red tory greatness in Scotland.

    Again, all that’s interesting about red tory Scotland is the great UKOK world of hackdom, how SLab get such massive backing from BBC Scotland. Olde JC must be a bit disorientated when he comes up to his Scotland region, as beeb Scotland gimps try on anything get us to vote SLab, while beeb England gimps hate olde JC harder and harder, day by UK day.

  342. ben madigan
    Ignored
    says:

    Dave McEwan Hill who asked “Should the people of Catalonia have a free and fair referendum to decide their constitutional status and how they are governed?”

    Yes of course

    “Why will Rajoy not agree to this”
    Mr Rajoy has already announced there will be elections on 21st December.

    I fear he will ban Independence-supporting candidates on the grounds that these candidates would be illegitimate as the Spanish Constitution does not permit Secession/Independence of its regions.

    I hope I am wrong.

    PS for my views on the Spanish Constitution see here:

    https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/10/23/family-of-nations-in-the-doldrums/

  343. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    If there is a hard Brexit, they may give signals that if we went independent we would be fast tracked to become a member state.
    ——————-

    perhaps, but i wouldnt bank on that happening. we need to win our independence on our own.

    i doubt anyone will come to our aid

  344. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    The EU/U.N. are going to be confronted with the Catalan issue soon enough if this goes to the international courts.

    Then it cannot be ignored nor dismissed, especially since the Catalan leaders will be quoting the rules and charters of both organisations back at them across a courtroom.

    That is hardly a sustainable position.

  345. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    heedtracker,

    “Graun giving all new and exciting These Islands, massive Graun boosting, is only interesting in that they seem to prefer a dog food salesman’s new club for tory yoons to Scotland in Union.”

    Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, in my humble opinion, it would be a good idea for you to completely boycott The Guardian.

    If it blocked you, why don’t you block it?

    After all, you now have the “independence supporting” The National.

  346. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Proud Cybernat,

    “@ Robert Peffers

    Good stuff there, Mr Peffers.

    I would like to ask something of you. Can you devise a QUESTION that can demonstrate how the present ‘legal’ constitutional arrangement of the UK is adversely impacting on our Scottish rights that is contrary to the provisions of the Treaty/Act of Union?

    If such a very goo test question can be devised, perhaps it might be possible that we could Crowd Fund a petition to the Court of Session / Supreme Court. And hopefully then get this constitutional dog’s breakfast decided once and for all.

    Yupffurrit?”

    Yes, Robert Peffers, Yupffurrit?

    I can say with 100% confidence that you are not.

  347. Brian Powell
    Ignored
    says:

    “respects the devolution settlement by ensuring that powers returning from Brussels go directly to Edinburgh”?? Corbyn, that’s what’s supposed to happen anyway.

    If we vote for Independence we can get a hell of a lot more powers back from Westminster than voting for Labour. All the important powers.

  348. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    After all, you now have the “independence supporting” The National.

    The National’s really good Rock, its getting better too, as it matures.

    My advice to you is read everything and anything you like. Just because Graun blocked me btl, my ego is more than capable of the shock.

    So Rock, that Graun tory Ian Jack was clearly told, “Ian we need to get These Islands gits out and into the open mainstream, so 1000 words on how great they are, there’s a good ligger, cheques in the post.”

    Tory britnat propaganda is quite dull but it is getting worse too Rock, as Brexit teamGGB’s grip round Scotland’s throat tightens.

  349. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    There surely comes a point when abusive personal attacks on here becomes an issue serious enough to ban certain people ?

  350. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    geeo says:
    28 October, 2017 at 8:33 pm
    There surely comes a point when abusive personal attacks on here becomes an issue serious enough to ban certain people ?

    Just use Rock to make the case:D

    Rock loves to terrify for example.

    UKOK toryboy’s have gone civil war mental. BBC r4 Today show has a long hysterical rant by Malcolm Rifkind, on Newsnight last night? Malcolm’s raging and raging, at the vile C____a separatists causing next Balkan’s civil war, must be true, its Malcolm Rifkind.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2017/oct/27/martin-rowson-on-spain-catalonia-independence-power-struggle-cartoon

    What is abundantly clear, UKOK britnat culture is both shitting itself that Scotland is watching C____a and they are using it all to terrorise us, into staying under the warm and lovely control, of lovely and warm tory England.

  351. Croompenstein
    Ignored
    says:

    Stu can you put up a new post for wings to pay tribute to the people and government of Catalonia, you don’t need to write anything just an image of the Catalan flag for wingers to show solidarity.. 🙂

  352. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Rock.

    Back in the day, when I read EVERY comment BTL, I even read yours. Unfortunately, since around the middle of 2015, your input has deteriorated to merely pasting comments from other Wingers, along with a wee kick at “independence supporting National”.

    I think I know what’s wrong. Can you not generate the gumption to get yourself a lady friend of the opposite gender, one who will occupy you completely and stop you posting your Jackie Bailey on here?

    No offence…

  353. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    Oops forgot to mention at 7:13pm that we shouldn’t forget that Scotland also has its own distinct legal system.

    @ William Wallace at 7:47pm ….. “Unless the Yoons are taking over the MT late night where a little hilarity/stupidity can be good for derailing them.”

    Derailing Yoons? I don’t get it, sorry. I’m more concerned about individuals from abroad visiting the site late night, such as friends and relatives of mine living in the US and Canada. I encouraged them to visit the site. They in turn are asking me what’s going on. As they see it “drunken shenanigans” just reinforces the drunken Scottish stereotype.

    And yes, peace to you too William. Sincerely.

  354. sassenach
    Ignored
    says:

    Rock @8-05

    You have used that exact comment previously, on more than one occasion – are you the original ‘paste-man’?

    Boring.

  355. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    I think I know what’s wrong. Can you not generate the gumption to get yourself a lady friend of the opposite gender, one who will occupy you completely and stop you posting your Jackie Bailey on here?

    A Rockette, for Rock:D

  356. William Wallace
    Ignored
    says:

    @ IanB 7:49pm

    Mischievous wee buggers aren’t they. I think they are genuine wind up merchants.

    I was in the park during the summer when I observed one dive bombing a dog repeatedly. Both the dog and the crow appeared to be having a great time and after about 5 minutes another crow joined in. This was followed by more crows over the next few minutes and I got the distinct feeling that they were all thoroughly enjoying themselves.

    It was truly a great spectacle to observe. I’m sure they have a sense of humour.

  357. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    Clydebuilt said..’It’s not just Catalonia that’s got problems the whole of Europe is sliding down a slippery slope. The clock is being turned back towards a much more dangerous time…?

    More like they’ve ripped down your calendar, burned down your house and replaced it with a giant sun dial..
    We’re back in the middle ages.

  358. yesindyref2
    Ignored
    says:

    Thread is far too long. Needs a new post.

  359. William Wallace
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Petra

    As I said most of the hilarity/stupidity is contained to off topic. I am not as you suggested “egging on” Cactus “every night” on the MT. Sometimes it spills over by accident and sometimes by design.

    Anyway, point noted about international visitors. I’ll just post serious stuff from now on 😉

    I was going to crack open a bottle of single malt what with it being Saturday but, I’ve decided in the interests of Scotland’s reputation – internationally speaking, to do a labour party special instead and abstain. 😉

    Have a good weekend.

  360. Fairliered
    Ignored
    says:

    Yesindyref 2.
    Thread length is Stuart’s call, not yours. Stop posting boring stuff and it will be shorter.

  361. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    @ PacMan at 8:12pm …..”If there is a hard Brexit they would give signals that if we went Independent we would be fast tracked to become a member state. That would send a message to the member countries that they will not support Indy movements as long as they stay part of the EU.”

    Spot on PacMan. This could also put the wind up countries thinking of leaving the EU in that it (an exit) may encourage regions to consider breaking away, such as Lombardy / Italy and some Greek Islands / Greece.

  362. Jockanese Wind Talker
    Ignored
    says:

    F*ck me Catalunyian Indy has really rattled the BritNats, their MSM and BBC Propagandists…

    ..and their 77th Brigade Apologists eh @Rock says at 8:27 pm

    “Yupffurrit?”

    Not the usual vocabulary for your ‘Call Sign’ (you’re usually more a Broadsword calling DannyBoy, kind o’ Rock/Rockette).

    Usual ‘Rock’ still off for the tattie holidays and they’ve dumped someone else with the password to the account??

  363. schrodingers cat
    Ignored
    says:

    http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/edito/20171028.OBS6648/catalogne-paris-et-ses-voisins-europeens-font-fausse-route.html

    interesting article in french
    ——————————
    Fais ce que je dis, pas ce que je fais

    On sait que nos dirigeants, de tradition centralisatrice, “intégrationniste” et jacobine, sont contre la séparation de la Catalogne du reste de l’Espagne car ils ne reconnaissent pas le référendum sur l’indépendance organisé par Barcelone le 1er octobre dernier. Mais, bizarrement, ils n’ont rien dit quand les Britanniques (qui ne doivent pas être aussi démocrates que nous ou que les Espagnols ?) ont organisé un vote séparé sur l’indépendance de l’Ecosse.

    On sait que le parti populaire espagnol au pouvoir à Madrid (la droite conservatrice qui, par nature, ne comprend jamais que les temps changent) a toujours été contre le divorce. Mais il est légal aujourd’hui en Espagne. Et il n’est pas légal de mettre des claques à sa femme si elle veut partir. Et si demain les matraques d’une Guardia Civil encore infiltrée de fascistes et de nostalgiques du franquisme s’abattent sur des manifestants pacifistes catalans, si le sang coule à Barcelone, on verra bien pour qui le peuple français prendra parti. La France, ce ne sont pas les déclarations de l’Elysée, ce ne sont pas les communiqués d’un Quai d’Orsay, qui, depuis le chute du mur de Berlin, a reconnu en Europe l’indépendance de tous les pays qu’il avait systématiquement juré de ne jamais reconnaître. La France, c’est la Révolution française (illégale). C’est ce qu’il y a écrit sur nos bâtiments publics. “Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité”. Et pour la Catalogne aussi.

    Jean-Baptiste Naudet

  364. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi William Wallace.

    Your mention of malt has just reminded me that I have a bottle of Balvenie in the kitchen so, tonight, I think I will stray from the Queen Margot with Lidl’s Iron Brew, in favour of the malt with a lump of ice I got from my brother for my 65th, as an apperitif before my noodles with cajun chicken goujons (both also from Lidl.)

    Slainte!

    (Apologies for going off-topic, iye?)

  365. William Wallace
    Ignored
    says:

    Slàinte Brian.

    If eh didnae ken better eh would swear you were leading me into temptation. 😉 Ehm abstinent now ya ken, international relations and that 😉

  366. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @WW –

    I didn’t believe crows did stuff like that unless they were appearing in Father Ted. Seriously, I heard the flapping right behind ma heid, turned round and there it was, about two feet away, preparing to land on ma bunnet. The bastard!

  367. William Wallace
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Ian

    Eh reckon he was winding you up. 🙂

    Eh never knew crows behaved like that either until I witnessed them at work this summer. I genuinely think they have a mischievous side to them and something of a sense of humour.

  368. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    heedtracker,

    “Just because Graun blocked me btl, my ego is more than capable of the shock.”

    Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend, don’t you have a sense of self respect?

    Why patronise a lying, war mongering, British Nationalist rag which blocked you?

    What purpose does it serve to read it and moan about it here?

    In my humble opinion, you should dump both it and your unfaithful Slovene girlfriend, if she hasn’t dumped you already.

    Be brave, like a Catelonian “separatist”.

  369. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    These CURRENT LEADERS, we see across Europe, are buckling and pandering, conveniently for them, to RIGHT WING PRESSURE GROUPS .

    Saving their out of touch political parties above all, is all that matters to them.

    They’ll all be gone, in say five to eight years.

    If we replace them with more of the same we deserve everything we get.

    People can see the future problems being sewn, governments deny cause and effect, promoting ‘more of the same but better’.

    Wake up!

  370. Ian Brotherhood
    Ignored
    says:

    @WW –

    Aye, you’re right. Dem crows just wanna have fun…

    At my beach there’s a wee set of ‘cliffs’, they’re barely more than fifteen, maybe twenty feet high, but when the wind is strong the crows fly close to the cliffs and the gusts fire them right up in the air really fast. Looks like great fun, a form of air-surfing for them mibbe.

  371. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    geeo,

    “There surely comes a point when abusive personal attacks on here becomes an issue serious enough to ban certain people ?”

    Do you mean ones like this:

    Robert Peffers says:
    28 October, 2017 at 1:26 am

    “I’ve listened to more than enough bullshit on the subject of sovereignty from a bunch of fools that I suspect are all either Rock or his/her sock puppets.”

  372. Croompenstein
    Ignored
    says:

    Holy Fuck Ireland WTF you won’t recognise Catalan self determination !!!!

    My sons favourite top is a Donegal shirt which celebrates the Easter rising and has the words of the Proclamation written on the back.

    I have told him not to wear it again!!!

  373. William Wallace
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Ian

    The original “Wings over Scotland” 🙂

  374. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:
    28 October, 2017 at 9:17 pm
    F*ck me Catalunyian Indy has really rattled the BritNats, their MSM and BBC Propagandists…

    And its all for you, YOU! Scottish YESers.

    Its also returning the favour aka, Andrew Marr and his bestie from Spain here.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26215963

    “European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has said it would be “extremely difficult, if not impossible” for an independent Scotland to join the European Union.”

    With out googling it, I’d guess that Manuel here is the same party ligger as the current toryboy freak show in Spain. As great a thing as the EU really is, they’re clearly as conservative as any conservative government in Europe today.

  375. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    This is Wings Over Scotland.

    We can moan if we like, so long as we know we’re moaning.

    What’s boring, is people moaning about people moaning. And so here am I…etc.

  376. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    schrodingers cat @ 21:18,

    That is indeed a great article. Thanks for that.

    It’s not just in France but all around the world that we’re well-served with useful reminders of official hypocrisy carved in stone.

    It’s refreshing to finally see some hard-hitting push-back from an intelligent observer on the po-faced official stupidities (will they never learn?).

    And it always seems (to me anyway!) to sound much grander when written in French. =grin=

  377. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Barroso’s an ex maoist says wiki but then,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Manuel_Barroso

    Prime Minister of Portugal[edit]

    While in opposition, Barroso was elected to the Assembly of the Republic in 1995 as a representative for Lisbon. There, he became chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. In 1999 he was elected president of his political party, PSD, succeeding Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa (a professor of law), and thus became Leader of the Opposition. Parliamentary elections in 2002 gave the PSD enough seats to form a coalition government with the right-wing Portuguese People’s Party, and Barroso subsequently became Prime Minister of Portugal on 6 April 2002.

  378. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Brian Doonthetoon,

    “Hi Rock.

    Back in the day, when I read EVERY comment BTL, I even read yours.”

    You obviously still do.

    But you are “sovereign”. Don’t read them if you don’t want to.

    And basically that is the extent of what you can freely choose to do under your pretendy “sovereignty”.

  379. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    Crows are very intelligent. In one experiment they were taught to collect plastic bags and recycle them for a reward. The countryside aw roon was stripped of every piece of plastic. Useful.

    re propaganda – there is an epic battle ongoing for control of the optic re Catalonia. The MSM are struggling to dominate. Let’s not allow them to fill up space and time with rubbish abut the Catalonian leadership. Carles Puigdemont is the President of Catalonia until the people decide otherwise. Not Madrid.

  380. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Rock.

    You gibber braille, iye?

  381. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    heedtracker @ 21:55,

    Barroso is Portuguese (“England’s oldest ally”), not Spanish.

    They take as much exception to that particular misattribution in Portugal as we do to being taken for English, so good to get that right here.

    Politically speaking, he is another of those former radical leftards like Flipper. You just can’t trust any of those self-serving greasy-pole climbers.

  382. Rock
    Ignored
    says:

    Croompenstein,

    “Holy Fuck Ireland WTF you won’t recognise Catalan self determination !!!!

    My sons favourite top is a Donegal shirt which celebrates the Easter rising and has the words of the Proclamation written on the back.

    I have told him not to wear it again!!!”

    I can say with 100% confidence that in the highly unlikely event that Nicola defies Saint Theresa and holds an “illegal” independence referendum, the Republic of Ireland will bow to the UK and not recognise an independent Scotland.

    The only European country that would recognise it is Iceland.

  383. Hamish100
    Ignored
    says:

    Rock hates contamination on this site. Maybe he should stop shittin on it.

    No doubt the paper he would wipe his behind with is not the mail or gruinard or record. Nope it would be the one that supports independence. He so hates the National. I agree with others though he probably is some of the recent contributors using other names.

  384. Brian Doonthetoon
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Rock.
    You have posted this phrase,

    “I can say with 100% confidence that in the highly unlikely event that Nicola defies Saint Theresa and holds an “illegal” independence referendum”

    many times over the past year or so. Admit it – you’re actually a bot, iye? Your database is in need of more input, ken?

  385. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Independent UKOK fear mongering, right in to their letter section. Scots are going to be terrorised ref2 because that’s all the britnats have left now, assuming we’re all not incinerated by stoned Trident nuke sub crews in the Clyde first.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/letters/catalonia-letters-brexit-scottish-independence-eu-theresa-may-brexit-nhs-a8024926.html#commentsDiv

  386. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Interesting stuff on Brexit ref. Just shows how tight it gets too.

    https://webrootsdemocracy.org/2017/10/24/167000-postal-votes-rejected-referendum/

  387. McDuff
    Ignored
    says:

    Rock 8.18.
    Read my post again and comment on what I said, assuming you are capable of that.

  388. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Heedtracker @ 9.55

    Mystified!

    Why are you posting a link to an article published in 2014??
    Brexit has changed things for Scotland.
    ——–

    There is a lot of hypocrisy about.
    Rahoy will find it very difficult to depose the Catalan Gov. peacefully and the world is watching.

    Puigdemont has the people on his side and by Monday, Finland, Argentina and a few more countries will have come out for the Republic.

    Read earlier that the wording of article 155 being invoked by the Spanish is the same wording currently used in the German constitution which has been lifted from Weimar.

  389. Meg merrilees
    Ignored
    says:

    Ian Mc Whirter in his article in tomorrow’s Herald states that the press and BBC interviewers are gagging for a Civil war in Catalonia. They are going to be disappointed.

    The Catalans united will never be defeated.

  390. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Meg merrilees says:
    28 October, 2017 at 10:35 pm
    Heedtracker @ 9.55

    Mystified!

    Why are you posting a link to an article published in 2014??
    Brexit has changed things for Scotland.

    I stupidly thought Barosso was Spanish. Duh me.

  391. Capella
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Meg merrilees – Craig Murray in his previous post dealt with the influence of the German secret service in the Ciudadanos Party.

    His latest post is also interesting:

    Zero companies have left Catalonia. The BBC, Sky News, France24 and Deutsche Welt have all told me repeatedly today that 1500 companies have left Catalonia. Goodness knows what the Spanish media is like – El Pais, soon to be renamed The Ecstatic Francoist, has put me off looking any further. But despite the media bombardment of fake news, actually no companies have left Catalonia at all.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/10/project-fear-shoots-bolt/

  392. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    There is a lot of hypocrisy about.
    Rahoy will find it very difficult to depose the Catalan Gov. peacefully and the world is watching.

    Well not that long ago, tory UK was going to declare war on Spain for its Gibraltar territory. Spain were in for another teamGB Argie Bargie, raged planet toryboy a few months back.

    Now the whole toryboy creep show is 110% behind Spain, or really just using Catalonia to terrorise us Scots.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3235404/britain-gibraltar-spain-war-brexit/

  393. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    1500 companies have left Catalonia.

    That “fact” is a core part of th rolling BBC r4 news crew Catalonia monstering. One thing those gimps never do is back up this kind of fake news. So lesson is, from full on BBC r4 attack propaganda, if its not got a link, it is a bald face BBC lie.

  394. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Valerie says: 28 October, 2017 at 12:57 am:

    “I now feel disgust for Tusk and Verhofstadt, and their statements today. Rank hypocrisy and cowardice from both.
    They can’t stand with Human Rights, ordinary Catalan people?”

    You are far from being alone, Valerie. However for those not quite up to speed on things European allow me to explain a few things. Apologies to those who are up to speed on such matters but others may be a little in the dark as yet :-

    Donald Tusk is a Polish politician and historian. He has been the President of the European Council since 2014. Note that the Polish politicians were furious at his re-election to the post although his re-election was otherwise almost unanimous.

    The European Council is the body that, among other things, organises EU leaders’ meetings and his re-election for a term lasting two and a half years means he will play a crucial role in Britain’s negotiations to leave the EU.

    The European Council, is also the body charged with defining the European Union’s overall political direction and priorities. It is actually a committee of all the heads of state, or heads of governments, of all member states. So Auld Lizzie won’t be included but Theresa Mat (cough!), may.

    Now here is what I was getting at in my earlier comments, The Polish prime minister, Beata Szyd?o, confirmed, “that Poland would retaliate by vetoing the EU summit communique, (a statement summarising EU policy on economic growth, migration and the western Balkans).

    This is the EU parliament’s method of how any member state can veto any EU Parliament decisions. The Poles may yet cause chaos by vetoing other matters.

    Unfortunately the document threatened to be vetoed by Poland could still be approved in a different procedure but such a political manoeuvre would likely drive the wedge deeper between Warsaw and other EU Member states.

    So much for Donald Tusk. Now for Guy Verhofstadt.:-

    Guy Verhofstadt is a Belgian politician who has served as the Leader of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe Group and Member of the European Parliament (MEP) from Belgium since 2009. He served as the 47th Prime Minister of Belgium from 1999 to 2008, Deputy Prime Minister of Belgium from 1985 to 1992 and Minister of Budget from 1985 to 1992. He was a Member of the Chamber of Representatives from 1985 to 2009. Since 2009 he has served as a Member of the European Parliament where he is the leader of the Group of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe (ALDE) and founded the inter-parliamentarian federalist Spinelli Group. He was the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe Party nominee for President of the European Commission in the 2014 European Parliament election, and is the European Parliament’s representative in the Brexit negotiations. ‘Nuff said that Belguim has more than enough trouble on its own plate from, “Separist Movements”. The Flemish Community and The Walloons, who even a French section made gains on the last elections.

    At the beginning of this year the EU was really on the ropes. Fears that a Brexit defection would spread to other EU states were rife. These worries were followed by a Donald Trump inspired wave’ of far-right nationalism ending traditional parties in the Dutch, French and German elections. ‘Europeanists’ were worrying about the end of the EU.
    With UK citizens’ status in the EU now uncertain and UK multinationals migrating to Frankfurt and Paris

    However, Macron’s injection of a pro-EU life-force, and the far-right movements struggling to gain ground, the EU seemed to be back on its feet.

    Despite the refugee crisis on the EU southern border and Poland’s descent into a dictatorship, the threat to the EU’s continued existence had almost gone out of fashion again. The Europeans began to feel positive again and statistics from the Pew Research Centre showed that the EU’s approval ratings, around Europe, had shown a sharp increase since Brexit.

    For Guy Verhofstadt, (the former Belgium Prime Minister), the collapse of the EU would have been a catastrophic. He is an ardent federalist who says he is, “in love with Europe.”

    Now you can discern a great deal about a person by how they react to a crisis and in response, Guy Verhofstadt wrote, “Europe’s Last Chance: – Why the European States Must Form a More Perfect Union, arguing that the bloc must pull together, and reform, to resist splintering into divided nations. In his role as the European Parliament’s representative in the ongoing Brexit talks, Verhofstadt is a key player. He has the power to veto the final deal. Yet here he is apparently backing the Spanish state’s brutal reaction against a easily definable, and identifiable ,group of people who seek, so far by peaceful means, nothing more than self-determination. This in spite of The UN, The Council of Europe, The EU itself all being signed up to treaties that virtually guarantee they will support any such groups cause for self-determination.

    For someone who loves Europe – he has a strange way of showing it. Furthermore, I very much doubt, due to the sheer speed of these two people’s announcements, that they npw speak officially on behalf of the organisations they chair. I very much suspect they speak only for themselves and their parties.

    Hope that helps clear up a few misconceptions for those with less time on their hands than I have.

  395. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Phil says: 28 October, 2017 at 2:06 am:
    “@ Liz g
    Liz ,never met you but you are brilliant,( always liked ye) mer power tae yer elbow hen. ?”

    I’ll second that, Big Phil.

  396. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    In case its not been posted before .

    http://www.facebook.com/YesBikers/posts/2349399758619162?notif_id=1509190932938847&notif_t=notify_me_page

    Saddened by the news of Dave’s passing , a Stalwart of the Indy Movement . My thoughts & condolences go out to Dave’s Family & Friends & the Brotherhood of Yes Bikers .

  397. Cadogan Enright
    Ignored
    says:

    100 YEARS AGO TODAY IRELAND APPEALED TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO RECOGNISE ITS INDEPENDENCE
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3aZI7YUds-0
    HOW MANY OTHER SMALL EUROPEAN COUNTRIES WERE TOLD THEY COULD NEVER BE INDEPENDENT IN THE LAST 100 YEARS?
    Ireland
    Hungary
    Slovenia
    Finland
    Chezch Republic
    Norway
    Latvia
    Slovakia
    Lithuainia
    Croatia
    Estonia
    Bulgaria
    Iceland
    Greece
    Denmark
    Romania
    Armenia
    Macedonia
    Georgia
    Azerbaijan
    Cyprus
    Malta
    Albania
    Poland
    and that is just in Europe – write to your Goverment and demand the recognition of Catalonian Independence

    Note : There was little support for Ireland – even after the formal Declaration of Independence in January 1921. Irelands Independence was not recognised by Britain until 11th December 1931

  398. Croompenstein
    Ignored
    says:

    See for all the Irish who piped about Scotland bottling it in 2014 well get it roon you..

    Absolutely shameful, disgraceful Irish govt

  399. Cirsium
    Ignored
    says:

    Jose Manuel Barroso also described the EU as a non-imperial Empire when he was President of the European Commission.

  400. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Proud Cybernat says: 28 October, 2017 at 3:26 pm:

    “If such a very good test question can be devised, perhaps it might be possible that we could Crowd Fund a petition to the Court of Session / Supreme Court. And hopefully then get this constitutional dog’s breakfast decided once and for all.
    Yupffurrit?”

    I do not believe I am qualified to do such a thing, Proud Cybernat. It really needs a trained and qualified legal person.

    However, I do believe that the bare facts as I often post them are a very good basis to begin with. By that I mean the concept that the Treaty of Union is undoubtedly an agreement between only two independent equally sovereign kingdoms. Not Countries and not states.

    Westminster now undoubtedly does not run as a United Kingdom of two equally sovereign and united kingdoms.

    It runs as the de facto unelected as such Parliament of the Country of England that funds itself directly as the United Kingdom with United Kingdom Treasury Funds, yet also funds, as a separate devolved unit, London as a city state. Westminster legislates using English law and then adjust any bill passing as an act to accommodate Scots law.

    Westminster also ignores that Scotland is the only actual partner kingdom in the union and treats Scotland like the two English dominions of N.I and Wales instead of the only partner kingdom. There are so many bent rules that they look like a very large box of those puzzles made from bent six inch nails that you have to attempt to un-entwine to solve the puzzle.

    What really amazes me is why so few Scots realise just how much wool has been pulled over their eyes and I include in that most of our elected MPs, MSPs and MEPs.

  401. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Croompenstein @ 23:21,

    Yes, the Irish contribution to “respecting the law” even involved full-on shooting matches in which people got killed. And their “crimes”, according to the dominant power, even went as far as “treason in time of war”. You can’t get any more “law-abiding” than that! Nor more stunningly hypocritical in official comments now.

    However, on a more positive note, a violent over-reaction by the dominant power backfired badly, and likely all by itself brought about the very independence it was supposed to suppress.

    Although the Rajoy regime hasn’t gone quite that far yet, its rigidity and intransigence is likely having exactly the same counterproductive effect.

    It’s all down to how the Catalan people react now. Hopefully resolute but peaceful civil disobedience will win through. After all, the Spanish regime can’t possibly arrest everybody who voted “Si”.

  402. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Just another day in a very creepy office of beeb rule. Daily Heil going to name and shame?

    “The BBC presenter – who cannot be named for legal reasons – would typically approach the women from behind whilst they were wearing skirts, and put his hand underneath to feel them, it has been claimed.”

  403. Croompenstein
    Ignored
    says:

    Meet me at thePillar son, Please meet me there at noon
    I need you brave young Irishmen,there’s something we must do
    please meet me at the pillar son , for it still is not too late
    It’s time to sing a freedom song
    Come soon I cannot wait

  404. Gary45%
    Ignored
    says:

    I hate to say it, but the Catalan situation comes down to the “Worlds 5” who control the masses.
    This has nothing to do with anti-self governing, its to do with controlling the planet.
    Madrid is just another pawn in the controlling chess board.
    Democracy is a sham, the sooner we accept this the better.
    Rajoy is just another FUD who thinks he is in control.
    Taxi for Rajoy.
    Think for a moment, Turkey, Tunisia, Greece etc, cause chaos then screw their economy.
    Spain, Italy? who’s next?.
    They tried it with Iceland and were told to GTF.
    Paranoid who me?
    Oh aye Boris Johnson is still a prick.
    MMMM To much Scapa methinks.

  405. Big Phil
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Mr Peffers
    I read every post on this blog and to me Oor Liz g is one intelligent Lady, I agree with a lot of her views as I do yours; its education and i’ve used your “teachings” to educate ‘NO’s’,. Think more about what proud Cybernat is saying because you really are a credit to Oor cause. If it takes funding we will all be behind you. Really think you should. 😉

  406. Iain mhor
    Ignored
    says:

    So nae hauners yet then?
    Ye can hae 100% turnout wi 100% of the vote. If a big boy says naw and ye canny back it wi force, yer gauny huv tae hae hauners, or yer gettin a doin.
    Heehaw tae dae wi paperwork.
    Paperwork has done heehaw in Israel/ Palestine / Kurdistan etc. Paperwork wiz nae use fur Scotland. Or did I mis-remember us gettin telt tae get tae fuck by Westminster?
    The Catalans better get hauners gey quick. They only need the wan and it will be jaickets aff everywhere.
    No even a peep oot o Putin and I hear he loves tae stir it.

    I wonder where we’ll get oor hauners?
    America? That cunt Obama had the neck tae come and stand right here, on Scottish soil, as a guest of the country no less; put his nose right in oor face and said ‘Hey Scotland… get fucked’ – England said it and Spain. The majority of the EU said fuck all. Some o the Nordics said aye gaun yersel and others. So we might get hauners yet. Ye only need the wan tae stert it.

    Mibbe tumshie heid will hiv oor back. His maw wiz Scottish eh? He’s got a couple o gowf courses. I think we rattled his cage a bit though, so ah’m no haudin ma breath there.
    Mind, that’s no tae say we dinnae hae force o airms, there’s plenty up the Gairloch… If we get tae them first, but a hae ma doubts aboot that.

    Moan the hauners! We’ve oil and whisky n stuff ye can huv and a big parcel o land tae let ye play aboot wi yer bombs n that.
    Puir wee Catalunya though, ah think their tea’s oot…

  407. Big Phil
    Ignored
    says:

    Noticed a few o ye are around ma neck o the woods, any o ye fancy a pint in Largs? Gies a shout.

  408. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Oh jeez, another one takes over the shift now…

  409. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    Are these lunatics who post gibberish built in a rocket factory or just born like it ?

    Word of the weekend…”hauners”…dear me !!

  410. Dr Jim
    Ignored
    says:

    Big countries can exercise military and economic power over smaller countries so it stands to reason the countries with that power don’t want their own countries getting smaller

    Little countries tend not to be interested in power over others so really wouldn’t the world be better off full of small co operative states who don’t desire conflict

    Big countries are the Baddies

  411. Still Positive
    Ignored
    says:

    Dr Jim @12.41

    Agree wholeheartedly.

  412. Still Positive
    Ignored
    says:

    Dr Jim @ 12.41

    Totally agree.

    Last post disappeared into the ether.

  413. Scot Finlayson
    Ignored
    says:

    I`m sure Andrew `Red Andy` Marr will be all over the situation in Catalonia tomorrow morning,

    Red Andy is paid by BBC £400,000 for 50 hours of work,

    that`s almost as much as a dentist makes in 50 hours screwing the NHS,

    this morning Red Andy has Hunt (easy time) and Abbott (try and rip her up) as guests,

    also the many many many faces of Owen Jones and that right wing nutter Okenshit to do the papers.

    @ronnie anderson

    What a tragedy,heartbreaking for family and friends.

  414. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    Good grief, Russia Today just had David Coburn (UKIP) commenting on Catalonia.

    Why?

    What the fcuk does he know about anything?

  415. Jockanese Wind Talker
    Ignored
    says:

    TEST TEST TEST

  416. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    AYE FUCK AYE!

    Nae wanks…

  417. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    AYE FUCK AYE!

    Nae wanks…

    Love YOU!

  418. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Love Scotland.

    That is all.

    That is all that ye need.

    Love Scotland.

  419. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Hi Hamish100…

    Hi Gus name yer year…

    Love yer maw.

    Love.

    X.

  420. Iain mhor
    Ignored
    says:

    @geeo
    Born with it my friend, born with it.
    If ye dinnae understand the concept of hauners ye’ve missed oot on yer education.
    Catalunya has nane. So far. Bye bye Catalunya.

    If you prefer the English version:

    No state came into being or will ever come into being without main force of arms or assistance from an ally or allies if it lacked them. There always is a price for allegiance.
    Whether that is power, economy or sacrificial.
    Cede powers, cede economy. Or you may have been a mere sacrificial pawn in a greater power struggle.
    It’s all very simple.
    No rule of Law, or paperwork required.
    No force of arms, no allies, no power.

    It was ever thus.

  421. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    The road is long…

    Though many a wingding turn…

    Be free.

    Yes!

  422. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Iain mhor @ 1.01
    Isn’t it just as well Scotland is no a State that’s aboot to come in to being then?
    All that was settled century’s ago….and I can see where huners would have been a factor…. Then….
    We are just in a Treaty agreement and we only need to decide that we are not going to be in it anymore so it’s mair a pen we need I would have said!
    Nae Constitution binding on us just a Treaty but don’t forget we can always ask the Queen of Scot’s to actually do her bloody job and gie us “hauners” if her other Kingdom gets a bit twisted aboot it!

  423. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Big Phil & Robert Peffers…..
    Thank you for your kind words Gentleman.
    Yer making me blush!
    And I do hope that we will all eventually meet.

  424. Robert J. Sutherland
    Ignored
    says:

    Liz g @ 01:24,

    You are ever the reasonable, Liz, but I fear we just have another Rockbot, this variant on anabolic steroids. =sigh=

  425. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Gus & Hamish..

    Don’t hit me it dudes.

    See the bigger picture bros.

    We’re all Scottish

    I love ye both

    I love us all

    I love Scotland

    Dig it dudes!

    Ghillie, Liz g & Rev Stu kens aye!

    Love comes in many forms…

  426. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Please.

  427. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    Observor on Sunday leading with “Tory Donors WARN May to ready the uk for no deal brexit”

    Hmm..do what your rich chums tell you, theresa the appeaser…

  428. Cactus
    Ignored
    says:

    Aweright geeo.

    Cheers geeo.

    n cheers for the truth!

    Everytime.

  429. Petra
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Meg merrilees says at 10:48 pm …. ”Ian Mc Whirter in his article in tomorrow’s Herald states that the press and BBC interviewers are gagging for a Civil war in Catalonia. They are going to be disappointed. The Catalans united will never be defeated.”

    How hellish is that, but par for the course Meg for the UK warmongers. It takes everyone’s eye of off what they are doing in the Yemen and with Brexit. Deflects from Westminster’s and BBC bias. Deflects from the rise in fascism across Europe. Par for the course for those who want to frighten the Scots off. Don’t let suffering deter you say the Tories. Bring it on. The Catalonians will become Independent eventually but not without some strife along the way, imo. But hey they will win in the end as will the Scots. What will the greatly diminished MSM find to write about then? How they contributed in a massive way to destroying the Union? Hell mend them.

    ……………………………………….

    @ Robert Peffers says at 11:10 pm … ”Big Phil says Liz, never met you but you are brilliant,( always liked ye) mer power tae yer elbow hen?” I’ll second that, Big Phil.”

    I’l third that if there’s such a thing? I love Liz’s posts too. Well thought out, knowledgeable, down to earth and straight to the point. Great contributor on here. And in saying that I reckon that the women on here make a great contribution all round to our cause. Commonly known as female power. Get over it guys, lol.

  430. Pacman
    Ignored
    says:

    Petra @ 28 October, 2017 at 9:16 pm

    @ PacMan at 8:12pm …..”If there is a hard Brexit they would give signals that if we went Independent we would be fast tracked to become a member state. That would send a message to the member countries that they will not support Indy movements as long as they stay part of the EU.”

    Spot on PacMan. This could also put the wind up countries thinking of leaving the EU in that it (an exit) may encourage regions to consider breaking away, such as Lombardy / Italy and some Greek Islands / Greece.

    I had mentioned in another post about the EU’s lack of desire to interfere in Catalonia for fear of inflaming anti-EU feeling across the continent.

    Robert Peffers earlier gave a good analysis of the current situation in regards to the EU. It is reasonable to say that those running the EU are willing to sacrifice their principles by not intervening in Catalonia for the greater good because they don’t want the breaking up of members to disrupt their vision of Europe.

    If true, it does follows that they could well make an example of a hard Brexit UK by sending out messages that an independent Scotland would be fast tracked into the EU.

    In that way, they keep members countries in line with the EU project by giving them the carrot of allowing them to handle internal dissent but also the stick where if they do go and have regions that desire independence the EU will meddle.

    It’s all conjecture but it’s worth keeping in mind the bigger picture in regards to the anti-EU feeling at the moment. The institution isn’t the force of good that it is painted out to be but the undecided’s want continuity, which includes EU membership. We go for independence in Europe and if in the medium term, it doesn’t work out, we leave.

  431. PacMan
    Ignored
    says:

    re Jeremy Corbyn and his position to the Scottish constitutional question.

    Corbyn has a parliamentary party that is against him and only now at peace because he has shown the potential to win. He has to answer to the Labour Party NEC who has agendas of his own as seen with Trident renewal. There is also the fact of historical antagonism towards Scottish home rule as seen with Labour being in power many times over the decades but only gave devolution because they were forced by the EU.

    Corbyn’s rhetoric can’t always be converted into policy. It’s as plain as the nose on our face and would simply be dispelled by the slightest analysis by the media. However, that won’t happen because that it’s in their interest not to.

    Going O/T, I had read a few comments that events in Catalonia will embolden Westminster to take a harsher line in relation to the constitutional question.

    It is quite possible but I can imagine there will be a lot of carrot as well. I could imagine a special edition of the British Bake off that celebrates all things Scottish in British culture, a future Our Girl TV episode where she is pulled out of a foreign country and flow back to Scotland to help with a humanitarian disaster here not to mention history programmes by our good friend Mr Oliver, amongst others, telling the great contribution Scotland made to British history.

    I know, call me cynical 🙂

  432. Iain mhor
    Ignored
    says:

    @LizG

    I’ll stick to the English (apparently anything else is “gibberish”)

    I think I understand what you’re suggesting. Of course Scotland’s position is almost entirely different from Catalunya’s but only in one aspect. We have the precedent of already being a previously independent nation. I’m suggesting, the ‘Law’ and paperwork is totally irrelevant. It’s an utterly malleable thing. It may appear to hold ‘weight’ but the weight of law or treaties, or acts, is only weight when the thumb on the scale is a powerful one
    Scotland may indeed have reams of paperwork, legal precedent, history, sovereignty (Jesus that might set them all off here) and finally, a majority vote for independence. However, if it can’t exercise that supposed power, then it is an empty vessel, to mix metaphors. It would require other entities to back Scotland’s case.
    If (and it’s not a long shot, we have already seen the precedent here and abroad) At every motion, legal, historical, whatever – the power of England and Westminster says “Quite frankly you and your paperwork can go to hell, we rule you” What exactly could Scotland do about it?
    Force of arms?
    It will require the backing of greater power to legitimise.
    If we don’t get it, we are extirpated.
    Unless someone wants to do a Slim Pickens down the ’74 atop a missile liberated from Rosyth and strapped to a Tesco shopping trolley.
    We have no standing army. We have no armed guerillas, militia, nothing. We have only the “force of law” and that’s exactly it. It must be enforced, we certainly can’t do it.
    Who will be Scotland’s allies and enforce it?

    Certainly, it could be argued that our weight of Law (paperweight that it is) is so highly regarded internationally, that it’s a given we would have backing to enforce it. Then Westminster also must fear the potential consequencies of taking such action.
    We are allowed a vote (grudgingly) we win, it’s accepted (grudgingly) but, I reiterate, only because of some heavy breathing over our shoulders. Our allies, not because of us.

    It could well be argued that in fact is the case. However much Westminster bluffs and obfuscates the paperwork, it knows, when it comes to the crunch, our case is so strong we will undoubtedly have many allies. If not, why did the first referendum ever take place? They were powerful enough to outlaw it, crush it. Unless they thought we actually would and do have allies. Who are they?

    At no point did Spain ever appear to believe Catalunya had allies. Which begs the question “What made Catalunya pull the trigger?” Who promised what behind the scenes and walked away?
    Are they pawns? Is there yet a surprise endgame?
    Who can tell. But they must have been unbelievably insane or naive, if they thought they had power of their own.

  433. Ghillie
    Ignored
    says:

    Iain mhor,

    Scotland could never be described as an empty vessel.

    And I wonder, how many now succesfully Independent Countries around the entire world had any support or allies ? Catalunya does in fact have the support of millions of people around the World, many of them right here in Scotland!

    Many a leap of faith is exactly that, a leap into the untried and untested, the unknown, the risky.

    Yet I do not see that with Catalunya. This has already been a long and rocky road since their Principality was taken by force some 300 years ago after a year long siege. This is Liberation. Nothing naive or insane about it. This declaration of Independence is the culmination of years and years of work and preparation and attempts to engage with the Spanish government in a reasonable dialogue.

    Catalunya will get there 🙂 Rocky road ahead or not. This is the will of the people of Catalunya no matter how much the global powers fudge the figures.

    Have a little faith in the power of the people.

    Have faith in the peaceful and determined will of the people of Catalunya =)

  434. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Frankie Boyle on Brexit …

    “The Tories are at pains to make sure that Brexit is being done by the book; sadly, that book is Lord of the Flies”

    “It’s stating the obvious, but the conflict in negotiations is not a clash of national temperaments, but the atmosphere created when gung-ho carpetbaggers come up against patrician bureaucrats.”

    http://archive.is/n4E4b

  435. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Catalonia lost the vote. It .was not a free and fair vote when those against considered it illegal and did not turn out. Boycotted it. A third+ voted in favour. Turnout 30%/40%+

    Scotland will win it.

    That’s the difference.

    Democracy and justice.

    The problem is because of the constant false comparisons,without qualification. It could put people in Scotland from voting for Independence. Ie as a waste of time or not worthwhile. There are already defeatists sentiments on this thread etc. No doubt the unionists and others, will try and use anything happening in Spain as a precedent. When that is not the case. There always was higher support for Independence in Scotland and rising, with good reason. Catalonia/Spain can ultimately find their own solution. Catalonia (7.5 million 1/5) does not want £4Billion redistribution?) Caused and linked to autonomous decisions.

    Scotland (5million 1/12) loses £20Billion to Westminster invompetencd, corruption and mismanagement . A third of income, £60Billion. Scotland has friends in high places. Including the EU. Westminster plans to take another £8Billion and 8,000 jobs from the Scottish economy. Brexit. Having already taken £Billions (£28Billion+) and lost thousands of jobs in Scotland with the mismanagement of the Scottish Oil sector. Illegally taxed at 40% since Jan 2016 when prices were lower. Tax should be in relationship to price.

    Fracking in the rest of the UK is tax free. The Tories banned onshore wind turbines in England. Magic money trees printing money with every turn. They took investment from solar and renewables. Wasting £Billions on nuclear. Hinkley Point (7%) a disaster waiting to happen. Flying nuclear waste all over the world.

    Two tidal barrages (Humber etc) would have cost £20Billion (a pittance)l They would produce more energy and be safer. HS2 a complete waste of public money. The rail lines should be improved in the north of England and Scotland, To improve journey times which take twice as long because of total lack of investment. To cut journey times throughout the UK. Improving the economy. Not an unnecessary line with absolutely no business case, which will always be subsidised and under utilitised.

    The Trams corruption and mismanagement. The fare structure etc. It should be £1 for ten miles. £2 for twenty miles. £3 for 30 miles. £4 for forty miles. £8 return. There are no facility for notes on the pay machines. OAP off peak travel passes from others places can’t be used in the Trams. They are under subscribed/utilities and more buses have to be provided. Defeating the purpose.. The Trams were supposed to be for the whole of Scotland use. The £Billion+ price tag. There is a lack of rural bus services in some areas.

    Wasting £Billions on HS2, Hinkley Point, Trident (cocaine) and Heathrow. The Tories have cut £20Billion from NHS, Cut £6Billion a year from education. Cut £18Billion from welfare benefits since 2010. Cut local Gov allocation – social care etc. They have cut Scottish funding 10% a year since 2010. Now cut £3Billion a year. Without any justification. Tax revenues raised in Scotland have increased, £4Billion a year on average,

    Tory mismanagement and corruption loses Scotland £20Billion a year. 4Billion++ in Oil & Gas revenues. Ilegal taxes etc. Losing 120,000 jobs in Scotland. Scotland could have had full employment. 103,000 unemployed. Oil & Gas has to be imported. Gas from Norway, (£Billions). Fracked Gas from US (UK regime) Scotland also has massive of coal reserves. Plus the access to CCS in the North Sea and the technology, £Billions in EU renewable grants, CCS projects etc denied because of Westminster indecision. CAP payments for Scotland illegally taken by Westminster.

    £3Billion lost in tax evasion. Whisky companies etc make vast profits and pay no tax. Tax evade. £1Billion lost a year because of no minimum pricing since 2012 (£5Billion) because of Tory Whisky association of tax evading members. Scotland has to pay £3Billion in debt repayments on loans not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Scotland can’t borrow £5Billion (10%) to invest and grow the economy etc. Total £20Billion +

    Westminster Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion have cost Scotland and the EU £Trns. Westminster has ruined the world economy and caused the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. Westminster incompetence and corrupt mismanagement has influenced what is happening in Spain and Caralonia. The banking crisis. The mis selling, holiday homes pozzi schemes on the Costas with excess borrowing on the London lending markets. UK real estate subsidiaries. House prices halved and people lost £thousands.£Billions in total. Life saving, investments and pensions.

    £Billions lost to London banking crooks. Most of whom did not go to jail but are in the Tory government being protected by May and her cronies. Committing electoral fraud and getting away with it. Failed bankers with £Millions off shored are in the Cabinet. Embezzling £Billions of public money and killing vulnerable people. May and her fund husband trying to crash the economy so they and their cronies can embezzle £Billions. Getting £Millions in perks. Gove and Johnstone Murdoch’s cronies in Murdoch’s pocket. Trying to illegal take over even more of the Press with fake News. Get rid of SKy. There are plenty of alternatives. On line etc.

    The Westminster crooks are at it again, Starving and killing vulnerable people. Embezzling and wasting £Billions of public money on groteque projects of no value. The Westminster crooks and their cronies embezzling and tax evading £Billions of public money. On groteque projects of no value. No one wants. Cutting essential, public services that everyone wants, supports and needs.

    The absolute affront of food banks in a land of plenty. Yet these cretins claim to be Christians and are never away from the Church every week, Lying hypocrites. HMRC not fit for purpose. That is why the Tories want out of the EU to continue to tax evade, The EU is clamping down in it. The Tories have lost support. Only 1/3 support it. They can be voted down and be gone before long, 30 years in the wilderness awaits. Murdering warmongering liars and greedy reprobates. Breaking the Law at every turn.

    Thank goodness Scotland has the SNP Gov standing up for Scotland.

  436. Ghillie
    Ignored
    says:

    William Wallace @ 7.47 pm

    🙂 xxx

  437. Bill McLean
    Ignored
    says:

    Is the Rev having a break? Is he OK?

  438. winifred mccartney
    Ignored
    says:

    It would of course have been much better to have had a free and full vote in Catalonia but the Spanish police stopped that.

    Even so 38% electorate voted YES
    in UK 37% electorate voted LEAVE
    and 29% electorate voted for Tory Govt

  439. Ken500
    Ignored
    says:

    Ireland was illegally partitioned by Lloyd George’s Gov to appease the unionist/Masonics. Unequal, secret, misogynistic, bigoted, racist society in Ulster (the six counties minority) acting illegally 1923. Lead on to the Irish civil war. No universal suffrage 1928.

    The majority in Ireland wanted Home Rule/Independence. A Home Rule Bill was due to be sanction taken into Westminster Parliament to be passed two weeks after the started of the 1WW. The War delayed the Bill. The unionists minority in Ulster use the 1WW to take arms against it. Cpt Crawford supported by the unionist Gov/army in Ireland. Totally Illegal actions.

    Ireland was illegally Partitioned by Westminster denying the majority in Ireland their human rights. This lead to years of trouble and blood shed. People in Ireland were denied the right to vote. NI corrupt illegal governance backed up by unionists at Westminster. Breaking UK Law with impunity backed up by Westminster crooks. Self seeking liars. DUP irrational, criminals. Ireland could soon vote to reunite. Democraphics. It would be good if sometimes Sinn Fein would go to Westminster and vote down the Tories.

  440. Ottomanboi
    Ignored
    says:

    Catalán nationalists have taken a step which I doubt Scottish nationalists (official variety) would ever take. That is the major difference between ourselves and our Catalan brothers and sisters. They are prepared to take a risk, leap into the future and to hell with the consequences and threats from the state apparatus. We appear to need a cast iron guaranteed insurance policy that there will be no pain. The politics of safety-first makes us look timorous wee wimps. .

  441. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    @Iain mohr We could all sign up to join the Atholl Highlanders ( i’ll leave you with that thought ) .

  442. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    Catalonia faces a media whitewash.

    Spanish nationalism is called unionosm.
    Catalonian nationalism is called vile.

    Watch this space folks,

    .. Dejà Vu Over Scotland.

  443. Vestas
    Ignored
    says:

    I see the delusional ranter has awakened 🙁

    Ken500 – you need sectioning.

  444. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    The politics of safety-first makes us look timorous wee wimps. .

    Indeed. Meanwhile back in Scottish reality, Scotland voted NO thanks, 2014.

    If we’d voted YES and were currently still being blocked by our chums in England, you’d have a point.

  445. sassenach
    Ignored
    says:

    Bill McLean says:
    29 October, 2017 at 9:17 am
    Is the Rev having a break? Is he OK?

    Wonder if it’s been a birthday or summat?

  446. louis.b.argyll
    Ignored
    says:

    No violence Ottoman boy!
    We’ve been through enough as a people.

    I find your message confusing, sinister in motive.

    Non payment of poll tax in Scotland was NOT a ‘wimpish’ act.

  447. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 9.27
    Can I be the Captain in Charge of The Paper Weight of the Legal Paper’s …please?

  448. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    Diane Abbot on the ( marr show ) Sexual harassment is not confined to any one party { its been going on for a Long time } . Kezia Dugdale said much the same thing the other week , if these Politicians Dugdale / Abbot knew about these unlawful acts WHY haven’t they spoken OUT before now same applies to the Bbc , would these revelations have come to the fore if there wasn’t the exposure of Harvy Weinstein .

    Another long long wait & much much cover ups & costly inquiries , WILL THESE POWER PREDATORS BE EXPOSED ??? .

  449. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Big Phil says: 29 October, 2017 at 12:04 am:

    ” … If it takes funding we will all be behind you. Really think you should. ?”

    I’m not the one, Big Phil. I’m too old, too ill and too disabled. I’m more or less housebound now so cannot often go out to post a letter. If there is to be crowd-funding I suggest it is used to get top class legal brains on the case.

    It quite obviously is not an easy task to accomplish for I’m sure that the SNP/SG have already employed top-class legal brains and had legal advice.

    As other Wingers have also pointed out the biggest problem is that Westminster has used the legal sovereignty of the English Monarch, (delegated to the Parliament of the Kingdom of England in 1688), in order to assume power over the people of Scotland’s legal sovereignty and demote the Kingdom of Scotland to that of just another Kingdom of England dominion.

    The problem being that our legal sovereignty is our greatest strength but is also our greatest weakness. Now on the face of it that sounds rather like an oxymoron but it really isn’t.

    The problem being that to assert our legal sovereignty we must have a clearly demonstrable majority of the people of Scotland giving a strong political party a mandate to use our legal sovereignty. All Westminster needed in the beginning was their own tame monarch. They had King Billy & Queen Mary, and the rest, as they say, is history.

    From that moment until today that means Westminster decides and their legally sovereign monarch of England is legally compelled to sign it into law. It matters nought that their Queen of England is also the Queen of Scots until a majority of Scots use the legal powers they have to give the Queen of Scots an ultimatum, (as defined in the Declaration of Arbroath), and I quote :-

    “Yet if he should give up what he has begun, seeking to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own right and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be subjected to the lordship of the English. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself. “

    That declaration, adjusted for modern times, for example the equality of the sexes, is the statement that made the monarchy of Scotland the defender of the people’s sovereignty.

    In effect the Royal person has been forced by Westminster to support the Kingdom of England against the Kingdom of Scotland but is legally also the person appointed by Scots to protect their sovereignty.

    The kings/Queens of Scots since 1688 have signally failed in their appointed duty to protect our legal sovereignty. Long past time now that we invoked the Law of Scotland and instructed the Queen of Scots to do her day job and protect our sovereignty. When she doesn’t do so we sack her and appoint another who will.

    Now I suppose I’d best keep a case packed for when they come to take me to the Tower of London.

  450. CameronB Brodie
    Ignored
    says:

    Getting back to the individual’s social responsibility to achieve a reasonable state of well-being. Unfortunately, Scotland is crippled by the Cringe and is faced with responding to the challenges of 21st century globalisation, without the necessary powers or liberty to do so. As such, the government of Scotland will be hard-pressed to defend her people and environment from Anglo-American neo-liberalism.

    Independence won’t provide an instant cure to Scotland’s ills but it will at least prevent our vital energies being siphoned off by Westminster.

    What is Self-Determination Theory? (+PDF)

    3 Basic Psychological Needs

    The hypothesis is that people have three basic psychological needs: competence, relatedness, and autonomy.

    First, the need for competence means the desire to control and master the environment and outcome. We want to know how things will turn out and what the results are of our actions.

    Second, the need for relatedness deals with the desire to “interact with, be connected to, and experience caring for other people”. Our actions and daily activities involve other people and through this, we seek the feeling of belongingness.

    Thirdly, the need for autonomy concerns with the urge to be causal agents and to act in harmony with our integrated self. Deci and Ryan stated that to be autonomous does not mean to be independent. It means having a sense of free will when doing something or acting out of our own interests and values.

    https://positivepsychologyprogram.com/self-determination-theory/

    Self-determination theory: its application to health behavior and complementarity with motivational interviewing
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323356/

    The Role of Self-Determination in Mental Health Recovery

    Topic: This contribution describes a personal recovery journey and highlights the importance of growth and renewal of self-determination as a critical part of recovery from mental health challenges. Purpose: Five factors that foster the development of self-determination are highlighted and include access to information about treatment and rehabilitation options and resources, support from trusted others, exposure to mentors or coaches who have the lived experience of mental health challenges, willingness to experiment with various interventions and recovery strategies, and opportunities to be engaged in personally meaningful activities such as work, parenting, or teaching Sources Used: Personal life experiences are shared and resource information is provided as a guide for readers Conclusions and Implications for Practice: Attention to these factors that foster self-determination by service users, peers, clinicians, teachers, and loved ones may help cultivate self-determination and contribute to the process of recovery.

    https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/prj-prj0000176.pdf

  451. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    The peaceful Catalonian vote for Independence will at some point,
    if Spain still feels the same way, will be littered with false flag events in order to bring in the tanks and subjugate the people.

    Or as Rajoy pronounces a December referendum, who will be voting, the whole of Spain?, UK Brexit style, thus ensuring a no vote.
    If just Catalonia Rajoy will ask David Cameron for his cherished blueprint on how rig a referendum, Scottish one worked well.

  452. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Liz g Sorry Liz thats not within my remit , but ah kin hiv ah word wie the Duck he might put you in charge of the cannons lol.

  453. boris
    Ignored
    says:

    Catalonia independence referendum: Instructions to Spanish government: First ban it. Then disrupt it and steal the ballot boxes. Claim the result void since the majority supporting the proposal was insufficient. Refuse to release the sealed ballot boxes and votes which could confirm the majority in favour of independence

    https://caltonjock.com/2017/10/29/uk-government-and-bbc-in-breach-of-the-unesco-convention-on-the-protection-and-promotion-of-the-diversity-of-cultural-expressions-and-eu-charter-of-fundamental-rights-scottish-government-should-prot/

  454. geeo
    Ignored
    says:

    @iain mhor…what a load of gibbering pish.

    The legal argument has not yet been made in a Scottish court, so WM have NEVER denied our sovereignty as such in any meaningful way.

    They have bluffed and blustered the issue, but hey, the law is the law. And when the time comes that the law on Scots Sovereignty is tested, there is only one outcome, and that is to recognise that Scots sovereignty.

    That is a simple fact and no amount of your reactionary bullshit changes that simple reality.

  455. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Another long long wait & much much cover ups & costly inquiries , WILL THESE POWER PREDATORS BE EXPOSED ??? .

    I’m not a cop Ron but is touching someone’s backside in the lift a criminal offence?

    Never forget this is Westminster. If this whole Westminster sex harassment comes out now, its for reasons that have not that much at all to do with the victims of harassment.

  456. manandboy
    Ignored
    says:

    Brexit is just a small step for the colony of Scotland
    – from the frying pan to the fire.

  457. Ottomanboi
    Ignored
    says:

    @louis b argyll.
    Having your country’s destiny decided by another power is bigger than the poll tax (which I understand was quashed by negative reaction in England more than Scotland) but don’t see the masses thronging the streets.
    Your view seems in line with the belt and braces brand of Scottish nationalism. Time will tell whether the British State will use that idiosyncracy to further its ends.

  458. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Iain mhor says: 29 October, 2017 at 4:59 am:

    “I think I understand what you’re suggesting. Of course Scotland’s position is almost entirely different from Catalunya’s but only in one aspect. We have the precedent of already being a previously independent nation.”

    Whoa! There, Iain.

    I’ll say no more than this:-

    In the 12th century, Catalonia was brought under the same royal rule as the neighbouring kingdom of Aragon.

    It went on to become a major medieval sea power. Catalonia has been part of Spain since its genesis in the 15th century, when King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabella of Castile married and united their realms.

    In the 12 century Catalonia was indeed once an independent state.

  459. Liz g
    Ignored
    says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 9.54
    Ten – Four good buddy…or is this no that kind of Duck?
    Cause ah wis planning a convoy of cannon’s and no a flock!

  460. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    @ Big Phil Martin Keatings fae Dunfermline had done a lot of case work on the subject of Scottish Sovereignty during the Indycamp case & was making headway in spite if the CLOWNS OF JAH . Martin gave Broddies LLb headaches. ( might be worth having a word with Martin ) .

    Martins looking for support just now to take the Bbc to the Court of Sessions for Bais broadcasting .

  461. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @Ottomanboi says: 29 October, 2017 at 9:26 am:

    “Catalán nationalists have taken a step which I doubt Scottish nationalists (official variety) would ever take.”

    Utter pish! The two situations are legally entirely different. They thus require totally different solutions.

  462. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    manandboy says:
    29 October, 2017 at 10:05 am
    Brexit is just a small step for the colony of Scotland
    – from the frying pan to the fire.

    Brexit looks like its going to make a lot of Scots much worse off. So who are we going to turn on/who are we going to be brainwashed to vote out/who are we going to be told to blame…by massed ranks of beeb Scotland gimp network alone? SNP. Scot gov.

    Win win for planet toryboy in its Scotland region.

    http://www.thenational.scot/politics/15612508.Fox_says_publishing_secret___39_no_deal__39__Brexit_report_would_weaken_the_UK__39_s_hand/

  463. Robert Peffers
    Ignored
    says:

    @heedtracker says: 29 October, 2017 at 9:35 am:

    “If we’d voted YES and were currently still being blocked by our chums in England, you’d have a point.”

    Says it all really, heedtracker.

  464. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Says it all really, heedtracker.

    Rabbie there is a lot to argue about but we need to stay in the realm of what happened democratically, 2014.

    See Frankie Boyle, he says SNP and YES were not that into independence in 2014 anyway. That was a chat in this very LOUD chat with, did they really want it? Personally, I think the SNP did and do, but the YES campaign itself…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDQJ8gQHvME

  465. galamcennalath
    Ignored
    says:

    Ken500 says:

    Ireland was illegally partitioned by Lloyd George’s Gov to appease the unionist …. Lead on to the Irish civil war

    The Irish Civil War was about more than Partition.

    The Civil War was between the majority ‘Free State’ supporters who wanted the south of Ireland to accept the UK’s deal of dominion status with the monarchy remaining, and the minority Repubicans who wanted full Independence. Yes, the Free Staters were accepting partition, and the Republicans opposing it, but the issues were much wider.

    It is suggested that twice as many died in the Civil War, than died in the preceding fighting with the British authorities.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Civil_War

    Ireland did not completely throw of the shackles of the British Empire until 1949 when it finally became a republic.

  466. ronnie anderson
    Ignored
    says:

    @ heedtracker Westminster/Bbc desks & work places should be swabbed for Seminal Fluids lol ( thoughts of the Greyman & Eggsweena ) . Any one claiming sexual harassment will either be promoted ( westminsters/Bbc way of solving the problem , or bought off ) .

    Word of advice dont get in a lift wie Ruthie or yer heed will get kicked in lol.

  467. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Word of advice dont get in a lift wie Ruthie or yer heed will get kicked in lol.

    Don’t mess with The Colonel. But point stands. The louder teamGB hackdom bashes on and on about harassment, the more they’re trying to avoid just how awful their tory gov really is.

    I mean we’re talking about a UK media stuffed with pervs and lechers, that makes its money using and objectifying women or for likes of Daily Heil, very young girls.

  468. Les Wilson
    Ignored
    says:

    When Indy2 comes along we MUST have independent impartial monitors.

    We cannot trust Westminster to play fair, it won’t, and never has done. Control of all of Scotland’s many assets are a must, and there is the land and sea diminishing prospect, for them to deal with.We can never trust Westminster to act like civil people.

    Little England is not something they want tagged with and will do everything and anything to prevent it from happening.

    They think that because they hold the rights in law as to who monitors any referendum, they can continue to defy whatever they want. In 2014 we had Better Together financed with shady money, frequent breaking of purdah rules. Plus huge propaganda and lies inflicted upon us, for the fact we wished democracy, despite what anyone says, Indy 2014 was rigged against us.

    We cannot allow that again, ever. So recognised and legitimate organisations need to be brought in to try and ensure we are not cheated again.If we do not, then it will be a repeat of the last time.

  469. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    World’s greatest media pervert has to be Rupert Murdoch, a porno magnate that made billions from his page three triumph of great brit journalism, and refusing to pay any tax, for getting Snatcher Thatcher, a very tory reward. Makes you proud to be a tory brit.

    But old perv uncle Rupert’s crew in the USA are paying out a lot of money to their victims.

    Uncle Rupert’s being kept out of it all, but look at just this one tory roaster. What on earth did he do to just this one victim that costs him $32 million. And there are many more too.

    http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/james-murdoch-bill-oreilly-32-million-sex-harassment-settlement-fox-news-1202598694/

  470. heedtracker
    Ignored
    says:

    Les Wilson says:
    29 October, 2017 at 10:38 am
    When Indy2 comes along we MUST have independent impartial monitors.

    Postal voting should be cancelled completely for ref2. Its the biggest hole in a ballot box