Quoted for truth #14
“The Better Together campaign has many faults. It is tedious, piecemeal, relentlessly negative, and a factory for an endless supply of scare stores.
Although these qualities do little to make a positive case for the union, there are some signs that they are effective. Last week was a case in point, as the putative currency of an independent Scotland moved to the fore of the referendum debate.
First there was a lurid tale about Scottish banknotes disappearing, then a slanted Treasury analysis about possible obstacles facing the SNP’s plan for Scotland and the rest of the UK to share the pound. It would be the Eurozone in miniature, we were told, with the rest of the UK in the role of mighty Germany and Scotland another dysfunctional minnow like Cyprus. George Osborne even pitched up in Glasgow to suck his teeth and furrow his brow at the thought of a sterling union after a Yes vote, though he never actually ruled it out.
There were no killer facts, no knock-out blows putting a currency union beyond the pale. Instead, Better Together said the SNP had a host of uncertainties to explain. Not because it wanted answers, but because it wanted to bury the SNP in questions.
The tactic is Better Together’s trademark. It has given up any pretence of positive campaigning, and instead tries to seed doubt through insatiable queries about ever changing issues.”
Get back in your box, Scotland, if you know what’s good for you.
rev, dates wrong at the top its the 28th not 29th
They have no positive case for the union so they are reduced to using lies , smears & scare stories ‘ unfortunately for us ‘ at the moment these tactics appear to be working .
There is one good point about all these lies & scare stories and that is the fact that as they get more hysterical and outlandish people can see them for what they are and when that happens there will be no turning back .
That is as about as accurate a synopsis of the debate that I have seen to date. However, there is a long time to go and people get bored with being scared, then they get irritated. The Yes Scotland campaign needs to ready itself to step up to the mark to fill that void and offer a positive vision while BT washes and rinses its shabby wares.
In other words, the BT campaign is based on lies and smears!..disgusting.
I also noticed they have been talking up some new poll that BT paid for, in which two thirds say they are unconvinced that the SNP has made the case for independence.
Now call me cynical, but why didn’t they just do a normal voting intention poll? or did they indeed to this but didn’t like the result.
I say this because the above poll also said that %30 were convinced of the SNP’s arguments.
Now looking closely at this poll two very encouraging details jumped out straight away:
1. the poll asked just over 1000 people if they were covinced by the ‘SNP’ and we know that a lot of people who will vote Yes don’t like the SNP.
2. It asked the responents if they were convinced about the ‘arguments’ for independence, now we know a lot of people who will vote Yes, will do so because of issues such as self respect and these people will vote Yes, even if the SNP did not make a comeling case for independence.
So if 30% are convinced by Alex Salmond and the SNP’s argument for Scottish independence, then this indicates that the numbers who would respond that they will be voting Yes, in a straight forward Yes/No voting intention poll would be higher than the 34% we have been getting.
C’mon Scottish Skier, we need your expertise!
In this contest, it will come to no surprise that the BBC PQ. is planning to show an interview by G. Campbell with (probably) the only high ranking member of the Chinese Foreign Office who doesn’t speak English, thus the necessity of voice over, in which is stated that the Pandas were a gift/loan to the UK as a whole and therefore will have to be removed from Edinburgh in case of Independence.
First they will take oor poonds, then they will take oor pandas, they swear.
Their tactics are out in the open now, and their lack of ideas. It’s fortunate that the Scottish Government created a reasonable amount of time until the Referendum to deal with this.
People do see through those who simply complain to much in an unspecified way. I’m sure there are psychological techniques available to break this. Once exposed everything thy say will be seen as empty negativity.
I wonder how long they can sustain the negative narrative without offering some positive and improved vision of the current settlement. Perhaps they’re assuming that once the electorate has been psychologically broken, then we’ll embrace whatever hypothetical jam they’re offering with pathetic gratitude.
Slightly off topic, BT’s Yougov on how convinced we are of the arguments for independence. Insofar as they can be compared it seems approximately in line with recent polls. I’d be interested to see the breakdown between the ‘not very convinced’ and ‘not convinced at all’ that make up the 62% unconvinced.
http://tinyurl.com/br68fdv
@Patrick Roden
‘1. the poll asked just over 1000 people if they were covinced by the ‘SNP’ and we know that a lot of people who will vote Yes don’t like the SNP.’
Good point, that hadn’t registered with me.
Maybe the Glasgow Herald can arrange interviews with the main players in the No campaign and ask them specifically about what details they want, and what do they mean. Again and again.
If they refuse, The Herald could say, we asked for an interview on this matter but X declined to be interviewed, so here it is as we see it. Panorama etc to do this.
The ‘poll’ is yougov.
That’s about the cheapest money can buy, bar possibly the one the P&J used.
Historically, Yougov is the least accurate on the subject of independence, being at odds with all other polls since 2007. To do with their weighting methods.
Ergo, I wouldn’t read much into it.
“rev, dates wrong at the top its the 28th not 29th”
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU MEAN.
So, does this mean that the Herald is not going to report on any future scare stories, then? I’m not convinced.
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1224903/scottish-independence-gets-boost-hong-kongs-money-markets
“But the Scottish nationalists got an unlikely boost when currency exchange company Mega Foreign Exchange listed the Scottish pound in its exchange rates, valuing it higher than the English pound. Yesterday it was offering HK$11.50 for a Scottish pound but HK$11.30 for an English one.”
It was very refreshing to see this in the Herald this morning and in their leader no less. It was forthright and I think I detected more than a scintilla of frustration in the Herald that the No campaign is refusing to truly debate the issues.
“There were no killer facts, no knock-out blows putting a currency union beyond the pale”.
Except there were, they just weren’t dwelt upon; without Scotland’s balance of payments contribution to the pound the currency would go into freefall. Fact. Potentially, a currency zone for the £ could indeed be just like Europe, where instability is being caused, not by the principles of currency union, but by the disparity of economies sharing the common currency. However in that scenario, Scotland would not be Greece and the rUK would not be Germany; rather the reverse, but with a catch. It would be the Scottish economy with the positive buoyancy of a strong market trying to bail out the collapsing pound, but the catch is our smaller economy would be trying to bail out a much larger one. The Euro has the saving grace that it’s most buoyant economies are also it’s largest economies. That situation would be reversed in a UK currency zone.
As usual, Unionism is deaf to the answers and facts it doesn’t like, and whines to the gallery demanding answers to the sea of unanswered questions; answers which it has already been given.
Although these qualities do little to make a positive case for the union, there are some signs that they are effective.
I concur. Polls show no down 5-6% since October 2012 with yes up 3-4%. That would suggest to me that BT’s tactics are effective.
This piece has a comment from a BT chap near enough quoting everything that the Herald raises….http://www.orkneynewstoday.co.uk/referendum-orkney-fiona-macinnes/#comment-109
Perhaps it could be recalled as to why we have a vibrant, effective SNP? Scottish aspirations were being grandly dismissed by sleaze-ridden manipulators, and as happens, sprung to having a full life of their own.
from James Maxwell on twitter:
Daily Record journalist on radio says he’s been told that Lab has internal polling showing significant support for indy among trade unionists.
It occurs to me that people are always willing to believe the worst in themselves before giving of their best. They’ll believe they’re too small to take on the big machine, to poor to give that extra pound for a good cause and too stupid because the other guy speaks with more confidence or better diction. But backs to the wall, I’d back the people of Scotland in any situation. Some folks say we’re not loud enough or that we should start getting more aggressive in our campaigning. Shake people out of their political apathy. I’m not so sure.
Always watch the wee quiet ones, they’re not as apathetic as you think.
@scottish_skier
“I concur. Polls show no down 5-6% since October 2012 with yes up 3-4%. That would suggest to me that BT’s tactics are effective.”
Hope you mean ineffective or were f**ked.
@southern Scot
Effective, but not in the way intended.
“”””“The Better Together campaign has many faults. It is tedious, piecemeal, relentlessly negative, and a factory for an endless supply of scare stores.
It shouldbe pointed out the The Herald and the Sunday Herald have different editors and an entirely different line on the constitutional issue. If you have to buy a newspaper buy the Sunday Herald.
I am quite relaxed about the way things are going. Let them fire all their idiot stuff at the moment. There will come a point soon when they have nothing more to fire and it is already evident that the scaremongering becomes ever more and more bizarre. The truth always wins in the end if there is enough time and BT is blowing all its capital right now.
I think posh English Ministers, already held in low regard, coming up to Scotland to threaten us is exactly what is good for the YES campaign.
And we are winning.
After over a year of the most vicious anti independence barrage across all of the media that I can remember there is no sign whatsover of our support dropping
The only positive case for the Union that will be offered by BT is Jam Tomorrow, there is nothing else. BT have painted themselves into a corner with very few options available to them. First of all they couldn’t tactically comprehend the length of time to the referendum. Negativity, fear and smear, can only produce short term results before people start questioning that negativity. Then there is the lack of talent in a rather small pool that BT inhabit. They haven’t exactly pulled in a widespread amount of top people that is possibly available to them considering they have three political parties and the British Establishment at their disposal. Then comes funding, mostly outwith Scotland which shows ordinary people are not willing to fund Alistair Darling. BT’s grassroots campaigning has not been very good. Even with a possible top draw attraction as Alistair Darling should be, BT has faced half-empty to near empty rooms mostly populated by core Tory voters or elderly. So right now I see BT as being a failure being propped up by the MSM who are getting more frustrated with the pro-union argument as the UK remains in recession and the Nasty Party pissing people off on a weekly basis. Then we have the ugly mob starting to stir (OO/BNP/UKIP/DUP) as they will see BT not delivering the knock out blow required.
I think the YES campaign has been tremendous, its supporters come from all walks of life and from all backgrounds. There is a real feeling of a proper grassroots campaign at it’s core from many different groups. Of course there is still much more to be done but the direction is upwards. The negative arguments are falling down one by one until there is only fear itself and this is before the SNP’s White Paper is published. We will win the referendum.
A wee reminder: National Collective fundraiser has six days left and are only £3000 short of their total. If we can do this then Wings, NNS and NC will have met their targets with a collective £60,000 raised in the last three months to promote independence and to further debate.
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/national-collective-support-the-arts-campaign-for-scottish-independence
I posted the following on the Herald’s comments:
“This is an excellent analysis of the Better Together campaign i.e. there is no positive case for the union. However, it would have been a more comprehensive critique if some mention had been made of the mainstream media’s role in all the negativity. To your credit, some time ago you call for reasoned and measured debate on the referendum and to be fair the Sunday Herald has largely stuck to that call. However, you are alone in reasoned analysis, almost every other media outlet is fiercely anti-independence and as such is effectively distorting the democratic process in Scotland. The BBC is particularly guilty, with its continual subliminal reporting of an anti independence message.
If a YES is not achieved it will be due in large part to the anti independence propaganda of most of Scotland’s mainstream media. I hope that in the event of a NO vote those journalists can live with their consciences. ”
I will be interested to see if it is passed by the moderators.
Can I just reinforce a previous point. Buy the Sunday Herald. It deserves support
( It is also a good read)
From Andrew Wilson’s SoS article:
Responding to a TV news show asking for comments on whether Scotland should keep the pound sterling after independence, one of the press officers from the No campaign tweeted: “I believe the correct question is could, not should…?”.
This interested me because that is rarely, if ever, the correct question in life. But it is the preferred question of conservatism and the enemy of progress and reform, especially in this country. It is also the core argument of the No campaign, which continues to miss every opportunity to construct a positive case for standing still in a storm. It was also the clear sneer of Conservative opposition to Home Rule over the decades. And look where that left them.
To elevate “could” above “should” is always to limit oneself fundamentally: “Should I start a business?”, “Should we put a man on the Moon?”, “Should I go for a promotion?”, “Should we try and win this league?”, “Should we show any ambition?”
“Can’t, couldn’t, shan’t” shouts the weakness of self-doubt and the sneer of those that would have us stand-pat in mediocrity, whatever the option. Better to stay in bed with the covers over our head. Always safer. God alone knows what could happen if we face the day. Pathetic.
Those of us with a memory bank deeper than a goldfish’s will recall that a matter of months ago we were told – in the same tone by the same politicians – that the referendum itself could not happen, even if it should. It was illegal, you see, and beyond the competence and power of the mere Scottish Parliament. …..
There is no “beggar the future” route to national success, as the track record of UK Treasury policy failure demonstrates. But within self-imposed financial sense there is a world of opportunity to tailor policy to suit your own circumstance and your competitive economic position. It is, in fact, the best of both worlds.
No choice in this world is easy. But doing nothing is a fool’s comfort. For Alistair Darling that “is not independence”. So what? For me it is the reality of a transition to modern independence in an interdependent world from a pragmatic judgment of the position we start from. Why shouldn’t the new relationship with the UK be the best of all worlds tailored to what balance suits us all best?
We have been through rather a lot together over three centuries and more. We have won and lost through much tougher challenges than this monetary policy one. This is about “should”, not “could” because whatever we democratically determine, “we can”. And incidentally, Messrs Darling and Osborne know that.
Fear n Smear, they have nothing else to offer, it’s quite sad when you think about it. they look and sound very desperate indeed.I was reading on Newsnet Scotland that they are swindling people out of money using an unsolicited text message in which you can’t disagree with them but you have to pay to respond,and that’s also pretty sad,but I would suggest that anyone who received the unsolicited text to seek legal advice, there maybe a breach of the Data Protection Laws here.
I have cancelled my monthly payments for my TV licence and redirected the money to the YES campaign where i,m sure it will be put to better use.I have been telling everyone I know to do the same.Why pay money to the bbc for propaganda when you can get it for hee haw on the internet,not that I will be giving up my TV,if they want come and fight me they will find that I am more than willing to give then one.
Rev Stu you should have highlighted what I consider to be a more important part of the above article, or maybe even Ian McWhirter’s article. (And I couldn’t turn off italics below)
“Nevertheless, the debate played into Better Together’s hands. Debating independence this way ……… the big picture gets lost.The SNP and Yes Scotland are now in danger of becoming bogged down in this unwinnable Q&A. Even if they could neutralise the doubts sown by Better Together, that in itself would not be enough. If they are to break out of a depressing cycle of defensive reaction, they need to articulate a clear, bold, joined-up vision of the kind of society Scotland could become. A vision built on optimism and hope rather than fear and timidity.”
The YES campaign really needs to get its act together and become more aggressive and pro-active. Why are we not vigorously attacking Westminster’s economic and social welfare record? AS et al need to stop worrying about scaring people, stop pretending that it will all be like the status quo, and start asserting that Independence is about … becoming Independent, with all the worrying unknowns that that entails. And they should stop trying to assert what the Bitter Together mob will accept as part of any negotiations and start telling us what the options are. For god’s sake Scotland should be in the driving seat on currency arrangements since we have the option to tell rUK to FO and to do our own thing if rUK want to play hardball. Instead we are being put in the position of looking like we are begging for scraps.
But we’re too weeeeee. We’re too weeeeeeee
@ Stevie, I’m not sure about needing 40% by October, as it’s not just our percentage that counts but also the BT percentage, if we are at say 37% and the BT are down to say 40% with Don’t Knows at around 20% then this would be a fantastic position to be in.
If you look at Scottish Skiers polling analysis, he mentions how Yes is slowly rising and No is slowly falling (trends) So if this continues until the final six months then it will come down to who has the most enthusiastic activists on the ground and what side will get their vote out on polling day.
It has often been mentioned that people who are Yes are far more convinced about their chosen path then people who are No’s and I would bet that quite a few No’s are getting scunnered by the constant too wee too poor and too stupid line adopted by BT, (although they deny this of course) and this seems to be borne out by how Yes events are far better attended than No events.
Who want’s to go along to listen to people telling you how useless your country is.
It’s also noticible how many pro Independence bloggs are established and funded by their followers.
Comparing this to No’s bloggs and to be honest I don’t know of a single No blogg that isn’t just some bigoted hate fest started by a right wing group of some sorts and it is chalk and cheese.
It’s very interesting that someone has said that Labour has internal polling evidence that the trade unions have a sizeable Yes support, as this may explain the blind panic they have been in lately.
The question I asked on one of revs articles was, ‘why are Labour with support from Alistair Darling and BT, having major policy changes in Scotland, such as devolving income tax, when they are claiming that they are so far ahead in the polls? surely they wouldn’t change a thing if the voters were overwhelmingly in favour of their position.
No political party would have the major spat that Labour had at their conference, through introducing what they already had been told was unpopular with their Westminster MP’s if they were confident that they had the support of the Scottish voters, that all these polls suggest.
Keep your chin up troops, these negetive tactics are not as effective as BT would have us believe, but they have no other way to fight the campaign.
I truly believe the voters in Scotland are politicaly astute enough to see through these lies.
Sorry this turned into a bit of a rant, lol.
Yet again it’s being portrayed as SNP = Yes. The whole question of a vote for independence is being successfully turned into making the SNP provide an election manifesto.
Me confused.
If 62% are unconvinced surely that means 38% are convinced therefore support for Yes is growing as SS says. Also, how many of the unconvinced are DK’s and could be convinced? What a crap poll (technical term) and just a variation of the WOOO! scary scary yes stories
200 leaflets handed out and 8 people signed up to Yes by an Englishman in hie 70s on a windy High St is a better bet for the winning side in the referendum than the perhaps maybe of an editorial in a paper of 30000 circulation. Smile at people and listen to what they say is the way to go, so go and do likewise.
It’s interesting you’ve only quoted the part of the article involving the problems with Better Together, and left out the part that says what the Yes campaign need to do to counter it. I don’t mean this as an attack on you, Stuart, obviously it’s important to point this kind of thing out. I’m just seeing a lot of people online focusing a lot on the bad points of the No campaign (and people in the No camp doing the same about the Yes campaign) without spending any time on what we can do to convince people the other way.
Years of Tory/Labour fighting in Westminster (and a sizable chunk of the Better Together campaign) should show us how unsatisfying “but the other side are bad!” is as a campaign strategy by itself. We may be able to explain how they’re in the wrong but it’s not going to do us much good if all we use it for is something to comfort us in drunk conversations on the day after No wins. We’re not at that point yet but I think it’s something for all of us to steer ourselves away from.
a supporter
It’s all in the timing. We are involved in a war of attrition at the the moment with the whole media against us. All we aspire to at the moment is hold our own and lose no ground. We are doing this. And keeping our best game for the second half.
But we will have to win by a grass roots effort which you will see no sign of in the media. This is already being well established and will be the critical factor in the coming campaign.
Unless BT (or the No campaign, which is what we should call it) can come up with something better we will win.
They cannot come up with anything better so we have to be prepared for something worse – in the fullest meaning of that word.
It is only a matter of time before panic sets in in the NO campaign – if it has not set in already. Do not underestimate the massive blow to the UK economy if Scotland leaves it.
I don’t think that the opinion poll was meant to be the main thrust of what they were claiming, it was meant to back up their stupid idea of splits in the YES ranks.
Consider that it said the poll followed a visit by George Osborne, but does this mean it was conducted afterwards or before and then released afterwards, I ask because if you then combine this with the comments that were supposed to have been uttered by leading lights in the YES campaign, with the impression given that they said these things after the poll, when we know they could have been said any time, then you get en entirely different story, why are there no specific dates to either the poll or the comments?
As others see us.
Scots pound sterling quoted above English pound by Mega Foreign Exchange, Hong Kong.
Thanks for that info cynical highlander.
If the trend shown on this For/Against Independence graph continues it will be a clear indication that the No campaign’s scaremongering is ceasing to have the effect that they desire. It’s the only weapon that they’ve got though, and, if one more poll shows that gap narrowing we can expect that they will increase their Vitol sponsored vitriol.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/process/polls.2012043398
I’ve read some people on here complaining that Yes Scotland isn’t doing enough, but why waste your energy when the opposition is wasting theirs? The White Paper will be published and the debate will step up a gear, and the No campaign’s response will be to repeat the scare stories that they’ve already begun to repeat.
I’m not suggesting that we take things easy, but the signs are actually encouraging when you consider the enormity of our task. Who would ever have thought that the United Kingdom would break up?
I heard talk this morning on the wireless that some folks in the YES campaign are not happy with the SNP’s approach, is it in SOS? the discussion I heard didn’t seem to include any attributable quotes, anyway just curious to know if anyone has seen it. Seems the next BT tactic will be to talk up any perceived fissures in the YES campaign.
Or, as we heard from the Daily Record man this morning, to claim those in the YES camp are all revolutionaries/socialists/anarchists/Trotskyists/Leninists etc, take your pick.
And on BT startegy, I missed this Daily T article, from 25th April, about the plans to prevent a YES hijacking of the Bannockburn festivities. A juicy section first.
Senior officials from NTS and Sir Malcolm were among the witnesses who gave testimony to Holyrood’s economy, energy and tourism committee yesterday.
Murdo Fraser, the committee’s convener and a senior Tory MSP, raised concerns that Bannockburn 2014 could be “hijacked” by the SNP as part of their plan to break up Britain.
But Peter Selman, NTS’s director of properties and visitor services, promised events on the site during the three-day event would be under “firm control” and discussions with the police are already under way.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10016432/National-Trust-SNP-will-not-hijack-Bannockburn-anniversary.html
A report about the gender gap – ‘Why don’t more women support independence?’
http://www.natcen.ac.uk/media/1102775/gender%20and%20indep%20paper%20final%20260413.pdf
Worth a read over your coffee. It would be good to have the thoughts of a few woman on this, sometime.
Whilst the Herald may print such articles as above, turn the page and you find that they, like the rest of the media, are more than happy to print the better Together scare stories and press releases without serious question. It makes for very strange reading. It seems that to criticise the unionist stance you have to write a separate article and place it in the ‘comment’ section of this publication.
Personally I would have my doubts about supporting this newspaper financially.
Someone posted a link to a discussion between Massie and Kane on Derek Bateman’s BBC Radio show, it was very good, generally well behaved informative chat, but the question being put by Bateman is ‘why isn’t there more passion in the debate like we see in Catalonia ?’ Yet in the ensuing discussion the role of the press (largely pro-independence in Catalonia) was not discussed.
Sure their are other factors to consider on this issue, but once again no one dare mention the role of the media in our debate, or indeed in Catalonia’s. It’s simply bizarre for journalists to continue ignoring the effect they have.
The main reason Better Together’s campaign has been effective so far (going by current polls) is having a willing and compliant media that will not take them to task in the same manner that they do the Yes campaign. That means they can continually keep smothering the debate with constant questions that are simply designed to stifle. Those questions could easily be turned around and put to the Westminster government, but aren’t by any politicians.
To be fair to the Sunday Herald, they published my post above. I agree with Dave McEwan Hill, the Sunday Herald is at least trying for reasoned debate, I think it should be supported.
@ Dave McEwan Hill 28 April, 2013 at 12:07 pm
I have already posted here a number of times about how support for Independence usually surges in the last few weeks of a campaign and Scottish Skier has drawn my attention to turnout and what that could mean in terms of a favourable result for us, but I still believe we need to show we are gaining ground NOW. For example the BBC claims that at the moment only 33% of Scots support Independence so why does it have to be balanced in its coverage? SoI think we should be aspiring to more than holding our own. We need to be showing a distinct upward trend. By the time the second half comes round it might be too late.
@Jim Mitchell
I don’t think it is a stupid idea that there are differences in the YES camp (and please any of you don’t try to tar me as a unionist troll for saying so). I am sure SoS is only reporting what it has been told/leaked to by the senior members mentioned. (Jim Sillars and Margo MacDonald?) There ARE differences of opinion about how the campaign is being conducted. I don’t agree with it. As I said above there isn’t enough fervour about Independence. Too much blandness. Not enough outright condemnation of Westminster’s policies. Not enough roughness in replies to BT’s claims. Soft TV performances. I think the YES campaign needs to up its game and I am not alone.
The alleged fissures in the YES camp are a figment of the unionists fevered imagination. They have being using the same tactics for decades i.e. divide and rule. Create division within the enemy camp and create weakness. Old, but very effective if you fall for it.
@LeeMacD
Just read the report on the so called gender gap on voting for independence. It’s interesting just t’other day I posted, somewhere on this site, how struck I was by the amount of male contributors to the WOS fundraiser in relation to women.
As a woman, when I ask other women how they will vote, I’ve had various responses from them, nearly all in the don’t know category. Some cite Salmond, some are old Labour types who can’t see past their party allegiance, even though they see the policy differences north of the border, and then those who just don’t think we need full independence and prefer devo max.
I agree, however, with the conclusion of the research. Women believe they’re being more pragmatic, less led by their emotions. Rightly or wrongly. On the other hand I also use a pragmatic argument for a YES vote, simply put, how the hell could it be any worse. And why not go for it but also making clear I’m not a member of the SNP, that imo matters. Personally I see that working with undecideds, women or men.
And I agree with the research that all the other reasons given for the difference are spurious, not founded on fact. Yes some women don’t like Samond but they like Sturgeon and as the report says the differences were there when Swinney was in charge.
Mosstrooper makes a good point, If 38% said they were convinced (remember the question asked wasn’t convinced by independence but by ‘Alex Salmond and the SNP’s arguments for independence) then this is a truly remarkable percentage.
Perhaps this is another reason for the recent panic from the No’s with George Osborne coming up here to lie through his teeth.
Even Unionist press were questioning the wisdom of a Tory coming up to Glasgow to threaten Scotland, but in a time of blind panic people do the strangest things.
What caused the latest scare stories about our currency? the poll shows that the biggest concern among Scots is the financial implications of independence, so this is why they have unleashed these scare stories again, but again it begs the question, why are they puting so much effort into the campaign now, when they have so much experience about how a negetive campaign turns voters off in Scotland and they are also fully aware of the law of diminishing returns?
Quite simply they are seeing a steady growth of Yes voting intention in their own internal polls and so they will feel they just need to do something to stop this growing positive momentum.
@BillC
Divide and rule does work because people do fall for it, otherwise why bother? Clearly it’s not aimed at those of us in the YES, YES, YES camp.
I’ve now just read the SOS piece and I think @supporter has a point re the campaign. The same people saying the same things over and over.
They’ve a relatively short time to wait, let’s get over the line first then start nit picking. We all know on this site we’re a fairly diverse bunch, I’m sure we would disagree about quite a lot of things, however we clearly all want to see an independent Scotland.
Then the fun can really begin!
@ a supporter says,
I don’t think your a unionist troll, as any divisions in the SNP campaign are regularly reflected on this site. some people want a more robust rebutal of the Unionist scare stories and this is a perfectly legitimate point of view, but the best quote I read about this recently was that research as shown that:
‘The only way to overcome a negative campaign, is to be more negative, but a positive campaign will always be more powerful than the negative campaign in the end, because the voters actually want to hear politicians with a positve vision for their county’s future’
This is the approach that has served the SNP so well over the past few years and the approach that is backed up by a very powerful political campaign machine, we also have a huge grass roots, activist army that is already at work, see hanclapping above.
For years the SNP pointed out to the people of Scotland that we were being treated like shect and we tried to tell everyone about the Crone report etc, but we got nowhere, now we tell the voters why we think our nation would be such a good country if we had control of our own finances etc and it is working, because people want to believe that things will get better.
The jam tomorow from BT is an attempt to tap into this desire for a better future, but it isn’t being believed, we just need to get our grass roots positve vision over to just one persson each and we will have our independence.
keep posting positively on here, if you post in the newspapers do this, speak to friends or family.
We will do this.
@Albalha
I treat everyone the same regardless of what they’ve got between their legs and what they do with it, and most of my close friends are women. I think that this is why I get perplexed by these polls regarding the gender gap.
Regardless of ethnic origins and social class, four out of the five woman I interact with the most have declared themselves Yes. The exception is a Labour Party member who attacks the Coalition for removing benefits and the SNP for giving them.
I know my experience isn’t a scientific investigation, but, like you, I agree that the other reasons, so often trotted out, are spurious. Could this ‘pragmatism’ mean that women will make up their minds at a later date and therefore become the most important battle ground?
@LeeMacD
Yes I think so. As I said I think a lot of women are in the devo max, whatever it’s called camp. There are clearly quite a few big profile Scottish female commentators in that grouping too. And actually in addition to a declared pragmatism I reckon, in general, women are less likely to embrace change without some concrete answers which cannot be delivered from either side.
So come the vote what to do. My sense is they will vote YES, as is being said above positivity over negativity.
I bloody hope so!!
It’s strange the circumstances where you meet fellow travellers.Waiting for a shopping, trolley this morning an elderly man bringing his back said” here you are” I had to tell him I didn’t have a £coin it was a token briefly opening my hand As he put the trolley back he asked if he could see the token (SNP logo) I showed him and he was so pleased ” I see you’ve got the right one” and off he went into a rant at the ignorance of those who could not see the benefit of what was on offer the papers, BBC the wireless he vented his disgust at all of them after all he said the tories will be back in power in 2015 and where will they all be then
We parted like old friends
@mato21
To complete the picture where in Scotland?
@Albalha
I guess I know my friends’ opinions as we discuss politics among ourselves, which, I’m aware, isn’t the norm. I’ve never bought into the whole ‘women care more about welfare’ type argument as it’s never been my experience.
It has just crossed my mind to ask my friends who they actually tell their voting intentions to. They tell me, but maybe they keep it in the social group. I don’t know. I wonder if it’s just a case of not giving an answer till it’s required.
Regardless of what happens to the gap between Yes and No perhaps we won’t get a true reflection until more women declare.
mato21
Our strongest people are with us. In the final analysis we will win because others will follow them
And i have to say that a woman once committted is usually much more committed than a man
Albalha
Kilmarnock
@mato21
Thanks, I travel a lot throughout Scotland and the geographical differences are interesting, I wonder if polling has been done on it.
@Dave McEwan Hill
And i have to say that a woman once committted is usually much more committed than a man
Seriously? I don’t even know where to begin…
@Dave McEwan Hill
OT sorry!
Dave have you read my comment at the tail end of the “How’s that working out for you?” article.
Regarding McMahon welcoming the OO etc.
Think you will find interesting if you haven’t read already.
An interesting comment on Number of BT Facebook likes.
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7276-anger-at-text-stunt-as-better-together-acquires-personal-mobile-phone-info#comment-193374
One thing that is not often reported about these women voting stories, is that surveys also show that women are less likely to vote in elections and are less interested in politics than men, so these polls reflect a normal disinterest among a lot of women, in what they see as a lot of men arguing and telling lies and then nothing really ever changing.
This is why politicians have put so much effort into promoting women candidates recently, even using all women lists in some seats, to get more women interested in politics, as the main parties have feared the democratic defecit, that this inbalance causes
However the referendum is diffirent and I am sure when women do begin to look into the issues they will see through the lies better then most men as women tend to have a better ‘feel’ for dishonesty than men.
Women are effected by the changes in society even more than men sometimes, so once they are given the chance to discuss the issues calmly they will come to the Yes side in far greater numbers than the No side.
I think women will be reached better by one to one conversations, as they love to chat about things rather then make a sudden heart decision like us men.
More than 300 years of propagandising.The support of the entire MSM and the state broadcaster.Yet still the anti-Independence camp cant get the support of more than 50% of the people.What does that tell us about the underlying support for the union ? It tells me that an awful lot of people,the majority,have great doubts about continuing under London rule.
Patrick Roden says:28 April, 2013 at 1:14 pm
I agree that a positive campaign will always be more powerful than a negative campaign in the end. But a fervent, robust, positive campaign would be even better and I don’t see any signs of that. I keep reading that the YES campaign is beavering away at the grass roots level but it doesn’t seem to be having much of an effect on the polls.
Also, there are few discernible signs of ANY public or media campaign by YES, only a weak reaction to whatever complex bullshit the Bitter Mob throws at us. Why don’t we attack such claptrap forcefully and show them up for what they are instead of trying to debate them. The ordinary voter’s eyes glaze over at the mention of details about currency or EC membership, or other matters which can’t be settled before the vote. What we need is some good old down to earth politicking about Independence, appealing to the heart and not the head. We all undestand that.
mealer – I agree, however, in the current situation the unionists do hold the majority that would win a vote tomorrow. Until that majority shifts and we see a reasonable approach to articles and news coverage within the MSM then we should be careful.
In response to those supporting the Herald, I too posted a comment merely questioning the role of the media in the independence debate some 4 hours ago, as yet, it remains unpublished.
@Patrick Roden
As you say, this is a referendum, not an election, and I would be interested in any statistics that show any difference in the female turn out.
I’m not going to get into an argument about assigning qualities to gender, but, when you say that women have “a better ‘feel’ for dishonesty than men.” Does this apply just to straight women, or do LBT women also have the same ‘feel’? Why do you think that, just because I’m a man, I’m more susceptible to lies? I don’t feel any less gullible than all of the women in the world.
20 April 2013
ALEX Salmond’s vision of an independent Scotland is a “mirage built on shifting sands,” Michael Moore, the Scottish Secretary, said. Mr Moore criticised the Nationalists for accusing their opponents of scare mongering and talking Scotland down when they question independence.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/moore-says-snp-vision-a-mirage.20855884
22 August 1997
Michael Moore MP, the Scottish Liberal Democrat’s economics and employment spokesman, said the Bank of Scotland should ”stop indulging in scaremongering”. He added: ”On September 11, the people of Scotland won’t be voting for a tax, but for a power. The actual use of any tax-varying power is for the people to decide in future.”
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/bank-governor-says-scotland-could-become-britain-s-regional-sore-thumb-pattullo-attacks-tartan-taxes-pattullo-attacks-tartan-taxes-1.383265
@LeeMacD
Here’s a link to a Gender Audit of statistics in Scotland. The voting figures are quite interesting, it seems more women than men think the Scottish Parliament vote is more important than the UK vote, see below, carried out 2004. Also the research from 1999 voting numbers show more women than men voted in local/Scottish/European elections.
From the blurb ……good news I’d say going forward, regardless of gender, also done in 2004
There was also a gender difference in perception of how good government was at listening to people, as indicated in Table 2.15 below. Women were less likely than men to think that government was good at listening to people, whether at UK (14% compared to 17%) or Scottish Executive level (30% compared to 35%). However, both women and men were twice as likely to perceive the Scottish Executive compared to the UK government as good at listening to people, with respectively 30% of women and 35% of men thinking this.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/03/27104103/6
@ a supporter says, I agree with you mate and so would the SNP/Yes campaign, but until or unless our unionist media play fair this isn’t going to happen. The bbc holds o much power in it’s hands and yet hardly touched the Ian Taylor scandal and did not question Alistair Darling when they had the chance.
It’s not all bad though, as these same media people gave Johann and Anas a good skelp and the Ian Taylor scandal has been covered well by the Herald.
It’s bloggs like this and NNS etc as well as grass roots activists like you that will win this for the Yes side. we needn’t be too concerned about the media war, as this is a dice that is heavily loaded in the unionists favour.
The fact that not one single media outlet is owned by Scottish people should be a fact that is spread throughout Scotland.
@ LeeMacD I have worked in the field of mental health for more years than I care to remember and I have noticed a significant ability for women to instinctively know that someone is being dishonest with them. this doesn’t mean that they don’t get lied to or taken in by con men as they often do, but women do think diffirently to men.
The LBT comment I have no answer to I’m afraid as I don’t define anyone by their sexuality.
I never used the word gullible in my post so not sure why you feel I’m describing you in this way, I do not think men are as good at tapping into their intuition as women, it’s been my experience but then I am often wrong about things.
I was merely trying to make sense of why women are taking their time at chosing which side they will vote for, nothing more than that.
Hope this helped.
A supporter, the point that i was trying to make was that there was no proof in the article about splits in the YES ranks, just assertions.
I believe, maybe wrongly, that the idea was to have folk think
a) George Osborne gave out his warning.
b) An opinion poll followed this which indicated that folk accepted his view.
c) Because of this ‘Leading’ Nationalists were staring to panic and split!
We have seen it all before.
Consider, why don’t they mention that the Better together site always uses Labour party stuff and usually only theirs.
Why don’t they mention Labour supporters for independence or Lib Dems for Independence or Trade unionists for independence, those are real splits!
As for the campaign, the SNP government have said for some time now that their report on the future economy, Pensions etc would be coming out in the Autumn.
In electioneering, timing is everything and you do not let the opposition run YOUR campaign for YOU.
There has been much YES activity at grass roots level, the Better Togethers are not doing the same work, they have always depended on the media to fight their campaign for them. their efforts so far could have been and were predictable from the beginning and that includes the dodgy donations, We cannot and never could force things into the media but we can and should connect with the folk who will be doing the voting.
As usual it will be those who are classed as don’t knows who will decide and we can win them over and i believe we are doing so,
What we can and should be doing also is to highlight the very real splits in Better Together, remember it’s only a few weeks since Labour members at their own conference were crying out for a distinct Labour campaign for the union, they are so uncomfortable working with the coalition government parties.
finally, i don’t usually pay much interest to the English local elections, but i think that this years could not only be interesting but have a bearing on the referendum.
I am female and most of my female friends and colleagues are still undecided. Why? Because they know they need to do some research before deciding. So far it has not been top priority. Not judging, but most of them are busier than their male counterparts. Work, family, home gets in the way. No time to surf the net. They know they must do it, but there is no sense of urgency yet. I wouldn’t worry about it. Women just need more time.
@Albalha
Thanks for that. I’ll read it when I’m not so busy.
@Patrick Roden
Your observations on instinct could be attributed to a number of reasons. For instance, you could be reinforcing stereotypes that were introduced to you at an early age regarding the nature of women. The argument that women are more instinctive is one that is linked to their reproductive cycles, the suggestion being that they are more in touch with nature and the gentler attributes of humanity that are of no concern to men. Historically, this was the argument used to exclude women from debating ‘important’ matters.
You don’t define anyone by their sexuality but have no problem with defining them by gender?
Is a non-intuitive woman or an intuitive man abnormal or just atypical?
You said “women tend to have a better ‘feel’ for dishonesty than men.” Therefore you are saying that men are more susceptible to dishonesty. Gullible means: easily persuaded to believe something. You might not have used the word but it’s surely what you said.
Like I said, I wasn’t trying to start an argument, I just get annoyed by the random attribution of qualities to groups, and that includes supposed ‘good’ qualities. Working in an office environment I may stab the next person who says ‘typical man’ or ‘typical woman’.
LeeMacD,
Stabbing..
Typical Man!
Scaredy Cat,
Yes, that’s my feeling and experience too. The difference between women and men seems more about when the decision is to be made rather than what the decision will finally be.
@Braco
Haha. I’m coming to get you with pinking shears. Your death will not be stereotypical.
LeeMacD,
Another unfounded assumption!
I happen to come from a long line of Braco’s whose deaths were all stereotypically brought about by pinking shear attack (and I certainly don’t think you should laugh at such things!).
Leemacd, you have no right whatoever to tell me what I meant by my post.
I don’t know what your claim that my experience that women are more intuative than men is the same as defining someone by their gender, is about or why you are attacking me.
I think peerhaps you have allowed your prejudices to cloud your judgement when it comes to gender issues and I would perhaps guess you are involved in gay politics, or omething similar. I have no involvement in this so do not tar me with the same brush as your percieved enemies, and perhaps you need to consider that not everyone has the same outlook on gender issues as you clearly do.
I was expressing an opinion in response to a political poll, i was not expressing opinion on gender issues.
However my considerable experience is that wether someone is gay or not a man will think like a man and a woman will think like a woman.
Women will often tell me that before they were betrayed by a partner, they had a ‘feeling’ that something was wrong or that their partner was seeing someone else, men more often than not are taken completely by surprise.
This is not my upbringing that taught me this as I wouldn’t have evn considered these issues had I not worked with broken people for o long.
It seems that everything that does not conform to your image of gender issues is blamed on wrong stereotyping etc, the problem with this belief is that it is taught, rather than experienced.
Perhaps you need to open your mind and experience life before you attack people, as you may find you are wrong.
@Braco
Thanks for the word. That could have been embarrassing. My pointed weapon of choice shall be a surprise, a big, sharp surprise. And I can’t help laughing in the manner of a maniacal killer. Hollywood has taught me that this is, indeed, the way that we stab people.
It seems to me that the size of the gap in the polls is fairly good evidence that men and women don’t think exactly alike. Given that starting point, I don’t think it’s very helpful to shout “stereotyping” at any attempt to arrive at an explanation.
LeeMacD says:
28 April, 2013 at 1:50 pm
Seriously? I don’t even know where to begin
Why don’t you just begin the ….and let us know what you think of the statement
@Patrick Roden
You stated that women were more intuitive then men. A position that I disagree with. I have every right to disagree with what you say, and that is what I did. You suggested that your work in mental health gave you an insight and I suggested that there could be any number of reasons why you wrongly believe what you believe. To back up my opinion I gave an example. I wasn’t aware of telling you what you meant. Can you point out where I did this?
I’m not involved in gay politics. I was trying to suggest to you that not all women are the same. A fact that you clearly don’t agree with: ‘a man will think like a man and a woman will think like a woman.’ I am actually stunned that you think that all men and all women will tackle an issue in a preordained gender manner. But hey, what would I know? I’m dumb enough to believe that people are individuals.
The problem is, of course, my view on gender issues. If only I could be ‘open minded’ enough to think like a man and leave the women to think like women. But, hold on, if you think someone disagreeing with you is an ‘attack’, then you must be a very sensitive person, and many people would say that’s not a manly quality. I’m so confused, now.
Apologies to everyone for diverting the direction of the thread. I sincerely wasn’t trying to start an argument. And, trust me, you’ve no idea how much I regret getting into it.
@ Braco
You have been saved. I’m now going to stab myself.
cynicalHighlander says:
28 April, 2013 at 10:37 am
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1224903/scottish-independence-gets-boost-hong-kongs-money-markets “But the Scottish nationalists got an unlikely boost when currency exchange company Mega Foreign Exchange listed the Scottish pound in its exchange rates, valuing it higher than the English pound. Yesterday it was offering HK$11.50 for a Scottish pound but HK$11.30 for an English one.”
This is yet further external validated information of a type which should and must be used by the YES campaign if we are going to get off the back foot. I understand the current strategy of employing a positive campaign and not stooping to the NO lot’s smear and fear tactics. There is also an ever-increasing band of YES foot soldiers who are out there spreading the message of hope as well as giving information on a whole range of issues, but all of this good work is trumped by the entire UK media sowing fear and doubt at every turn.
We should never assume that simply increasing information flow, although it’s an important part of the mix, will ultimately change behaviour in the intended direction. Or to put it in the referendum context, it’s basically only a matter of telling the people that we are a wealthy country and everything will be all right on the night etc, and they will vote Yes.
Another problem is the cynical response by those opposed to independence that when one side says X it is only to be expected the other side will say the opposite, and thus when the No camp are seen as always getting their assertions in first, particularly when they instill fear in many, it’s almost impossible for the Yes side to recover by countering with the “facts”
I think to be proactive, the YES camp needs to be using information like that quoted above to indirectly suggest to the reader that the UK is actually going to be a very insecure place in future whilst using external information to demonstrate the opposite to be the case in a future Scotland. So by posting a positive message for Scotland and using an external (hence “neutral” in terms of the debate) source of information which includes a negative comparison with rUK, the recipient of this information will start to doubt how a future within the UK would be more secure than in an independent Scotland. This will lead to the extremely powerful motivational factor in behaviour change called “self preservation” and ultimately a good few more crosses in the YES box on the ballot paper.
Dead easy to do – not- and behavioural scientists out there will no doubt pull this to pieces, but I have as yet not heard any (to me) convincing strategy articulated about how to overcome the fear factor in the presence of such hostility and bias by the MSM and state propaganda broadcasting to presenting the YES message. Until that issue is addressed effectively I fear we shall be struggling come the referendum.
LeeMacD,
maybe I will have to join ‘the burd’ and her Women for independence group after all. As was predicted by so many of us down trodden, I seem to be being denied a ‘safe place’ to debate here!
@Dave McEwan Hill
I think assigning attributes to groups of people is wrong.
Would you have said: I find that when a Scotsman gets hold of money he holds it tighter than an Englishman?
And i have to say that a woman once committted is usually much more committed than a man – does exactly the same thing.
For any further information on this subject read the conversation I’ve had with Patrick Roden as I’ve lost the will to live.
LeeMacD,
maybe you should join the group too and ‘create’ a ‘space of safety’ for yourself to debate away from the overbearing threats of ‘male’ stabbing you find yourself being threatened with by your obviously deep seated male gendered stereotyping issues.
Oh for goodness sake, grow up the lot of you.
Morag,
I will be vetoing your application into the ‘place of safety’, so no safe debate for you! Well, what did you expect with a male gendered attitude issue like that?
Maybe, as a father, I had hoped that an independent Scotland would be a fairer society in which my daughter would be treated as an individual rather than being pigeonholed as a woman. Even with the imbued tenacity of commitment and the quasi-mystical powers of intuition which having a vagina empowers her with, I would much rather that she just receives equal treatment.
Opponents of independence portray it as the pursuit of unreconstructed middle-aged men. I am glad we have risen to the challenge of proving them wrong, today.
Well, at the moment, I am reading the Runes very closely, and what I see, (at the moment, not September 2014) is that the BT campaign have been effective in using FUD…Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt…to destabilise the situation. If the trends continued, then the vote in 2014 is going to be roughly 40% yes, 60% no, as the FUD tactic is hightly effective. But 2014 is a long way away, in political time. Sadly, I can’t, at the moment, see a YES majority. It is time the gloves came off. The BT people are sleazy, corrupt, and dishonest, and have nothing to offer Scotland. They are a Quisling Movement, ("Tractor" - Ed)s to the Scottish people. I think it is time that ordinary Scots started to get that message, instead of allowing the BT gang equality of respectability, when they are anything but. Time to start calling a spade a a spade. Even then, I fear the vote would go something like 45% to 55% against. no matter. A vast public education job would have been done on the Scottish Public, and the BT gang pretty much exposed for what they are. After a NO vote, SNP could enter the election in 2015 campaigning on a platform of “Devo-Max (70% support right now, and probably about 75% by then) and the BT gang campaigning on what?…….nothing. They have nothing to offer Scots people. SNP could announced another referendum, in 2016, on DEVO-Max. they would win this hands down. Then the real fun would begin. The london Government would be cornered. We are in this for the long term, and for honour. The BT gang are in it for themselves, and no one else. Lamont, prepare to meet they doom.
LeeMacD,
what about me, do I not get a pat on the back? Or am I just going to have to give myself one too. (winky)
@Braco
I’m still thinking about a knife for your back, though, of course, I’ll need to check first to ensure that it’s the gender correct type of knife. No prissy little cooking knife for you.
Re my previous post and this is not an attempt to open up a battle of the sexes . It did occur to me that there is a lot of information to take in. The truth is that most women still do the lion’s share of the domestic work, even if they have a job. If the female vote is important, and who would argue that it isn’t, then men will have to step up. I, for one, would not want my partner to do the research for me and explain it to me. I would want to read it myself and that takes time.
I suggest that you men out there, if the domestic scene I describe looks familiar, should give your significant other a night off now and then. Do the cooking, washing-up and put the weans to bed. Switch on the computer and point her in the right direction.
Ask yourself how long have you spent reading up on this stuff and then ask yourself when she will have the time to do the same. I assume that these undecided women are not all single. The ones I know are not. I don’t want to offend anyone and if this does not apply to you that’s fine. But it will ring true with some I’m sure. Anyway, what’s the worst that could happen? At least you’ll make a lady happy!
Trying to work out the difference between men and women is pure ‘Quarantine’ material, and falling out over it is a waste of energy.
Love and Peace to all hominids capable of marking ‘X’ in a box.
LeeMacD,
Many thanks. (smily)
In reply to Graham Ennis
Don’t assume this generation will be given a second chance in any shape or form… but I agree that maybe a more vigorous counterattack could be mounted. How about asking the unionist parties to directly deny they are stoking Shetland “nationalism” because it will give a new location for a nuclear sub base. Or now that Cumbria despite the glowing “employment advantage” has refused to be the nuclear waste dump for the country ask them to deny that they are considering the sparsely poulated Highlands as a site for radioactive waste storage. Ask Labour to deny that they intend to claw back powers from the Scottish parliament if Yes fails. I am sure you could think of more examples.
Think of the headlines “Cameron/Miliband refuse to rule out Sutherland as nuke depot” etc “Secret plan for Lerwick Nuke base?” (please note the question mark). The Yes campaign is being highminded and believe that the good guys will win the day – I am proud they are and I hope they do – but think of the first referendum vote and what was done. Positivity YES Rational argument YES but a bit more cunning might cause enough fire to generate enough illumination so that even the most inbred nay-sayer will finally see the light.
Scaredy Cat,
that sounds like the start of a very slippery slope there and I for one will not be taking the risk of the possible domestic liberation of my significant other, just for the yet unproven benefits of her possible YES vote (and the so called ‘freedom’ of our Nation).
Nice try though.
@scaredy cat
Exactly.
And then maybe make a habit of doing the housework etc. I work with a woman who rushes home after work as her man doesn’t know how to use the cooker. I was curious as to why she married someone with such a low IQ so I asked her what he did. It turned out that he was in charge of a control room on a rig. All that machinery and the computers to operate them and turning a dial to 200 was, apparently, beyond him.
Oh, and guys, every time you cook or do the dishes, don’t throw a parade.
As I said, I don’t want my daughter treated like that. I also do not want my son to treat someone like that.
@ Braco
Ach well. You can’t blame a girl for trying. 🙂
Graham Ennis
Disagree quite deeply. At anything over 40% approaching the vote we will win it. The YES vote is much more secure and I have yet to see a public figure of any note (ie not a political or quasi political one) make strong public commitment to the union. This sort of commitment is made when someone is confident of their position being the winning one and it is not there.
Differential voting on the day will favour YES very significantly and I quite simply do not believe the polls anyway. It was the same in 2011 when I looked a the polls and knew they were wrong. Phone polling now contacts a fairly unrepresentative subset, mainly middle aged to old, mainly middle class or lower middle class and doesn’t pick up hardly at all on a huge part of the younger generation (by which I mean from 18 to 35).
LeeMacD,
TRAITOR!
Scaredy Cat,
Oh but I do! (see LeeMacD for the fruits of your unnatural feminine machinations)
@Graham Ennis.
Keep the faith Graham. There still 507 days to go.
To date, I’ve seen comments from people in Japan, America, Canada, Malawi, Finland, Spain, Portugal, France, Ireland, Russia, Qatar, Australia, and more places besides, who are alert to the bias in the BBC reporting.
Sir George Mathieson, respected former head of RBS is alert to the bias and negativity.
The Washington Post and it’s readership are alert to the bias.
Larry Flanagan of the EIS Teaching Union is alert to the bias and negativity.
Irish minister Lucinda Creighton, EC president José Manuel Barroso, Luxembourg’s Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn, Latvian Foreign Minister Edgars Rinkevics, are all alert to mind what they say when speaking to the BBC.
If all these people, many who have nothing more than a passing interest in Scotland and Scottish affairs know there is something rotten in the media reporting of Scotland’s Independence referendum, then isn’t there at least a fair chance the message is getting through to every street corner here in Scotland too?
We can’t stop the BBC. For one thing, while we get in to a lather about someone’s half million contribution, the BBC has an eye watering annual budget of £3.5 billion and a dedicated will to frustrate our democratic independence. We can’t shut it up, nor hope to, but that’s not to say it’s winning the argument. For all the money, influence and power in the world cannot create the positive argument for the Union to exist.
LeeMacD,
get off your knees and stop reading Cosmo, goddammit!
As a woman, I can tell you, Women are a lot more reticent, because they want to see more, cold hard facts! I, and a lot of other women are satisfied with the facts so blatantly obvious in front of us! My 2 daughters grew up in a pro independence household, but still wanted to read the pros and cons for themselves, and have come to the same conclusion as myself, that the promise of “more jam tomorrow” just isn’t good enough any more! We want to have a country where the government is working for, and looking after us! And not being made to “beg” for what is rightfully ours! Women take longer to make up their minds, but once they do, it’s seldom changed!
My last comment on the subject is to just say I am amazed that their are still people who are teaching the thouroughly discredited notion that gender diffirences are a result of learned childhood stereotyping.
Do some research !
The important thing in all of this is to stay focused on the real issue and this is independence for Scotland, 😉
And if you still want a lift, I found this –
http://www.arcofprosperity.org/yes-will-overtake-no-in-five-months-time/
Enough for a smile, but read the small print don’t bet the house on it 😉
@Breeks –
‘We can’t stop the BBC.’
Agreed.
But we can really really annoy them.
And one of the best ways is to keep pointing out that, post-Yes, they can start packing their bags. I’m sure many would be keen to go down to Pacific Quay and wave them off.
a poster above made an interesting comment from the National Trust about “concerns that Bannockburn 2014 could be “hijacked” by the SNP as part of their plan to break up Britain.”
and I thought nationalists fought that battle for Independence. Presumably they were the right kind of nationalists, not ‘ordinary’ people!
Apparently Burns was not for independence either, writing,
O would, or I had seen the day
That treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I’ll mak this declaration;
We’re bought and sold for English gold,
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!
and the fact that he was going to charged with sedition, just a coincidence.
There goes my subscription to Scottish National Trust.
Breeks,
I think it’s becoming more and more obvious that the BBC is definitely grinding an axe. When it becomes this open then no matter how much propaganda is churned out, it’s effectiveness becomes increasingly limited and eventually counterproductive.
YES will win this because as time goes by the Grass Roots message from face to face interactions of friends, family and non political activists will be perceived by the electorate as more and more trusted just as MSM and BBC information becomes devalued.
I really am confident about this thing. (Smily)
@Patrick Roden
I suggested that your perception, due to your upbringing, may be responsible for you believing that what you see is, in fact, what you see. I’m pretty sure that even as late as last year a report showed the media’s power to reinforce a made up biological explanation. I can dig it out if you’re interested.
Care to provide a link that shows gender differences are a result of learned childhood stereotyping are discredited? I’m always interested in research.
The more newspapers saying this (and this seems almost identical to what the Sun were saying recently), the more scrutiny BetterTogether will come under – and the last thing they want is scrutiny. After all, there’s a very good reason why they wanted the referendum as quickly as possible – when your position is built on lies, the longer you have to hide them, the more chance there is you’ll be rumbled.
Filleting the Herald piece produces a good definition of ‘trolling’:
“It is tedious, piecemeal, relentlessly negative, and a factory for an endless supply of scare stores…First there was a lurid tale… then a slanted…analysis about possible obstacles…
no killer facts, no knock-out blows…the SNP had a host of uncertainties to explain…Not because it wanted answers, but because it wanted to bury the SNP in questions…
It has given up any pretence of positive campaigning, and instead tries to seed doubt through insatiable queries about ever changing issues.”
Rev has recently shown red cards to a few posters who were doing precisely the above.
Would it be very unfair to describe the whole BT campaign as a form of trolling?
Re the No campaign, I am reminded of what the late Oscar Wilde said – ‘If you keep telling the truth, sooner or later you will be found out’.
I don’t know whether we will win or lose in 2014. In fact I am not that bothered. I am, however, certain that Scotland will be Independent by 2020. Because ‘No’ voters are no longer being born. Because every year the British State grows weaker, more threadbare; and every year we grow stronger. Onward!
“Because ‘No’ voters are no longer being born”
Oh, if only that was truly the case. Going to the Aberdeen BetterTogether launch was quite an eye-opener for me, meeting young politics geeks in the flesh. I had an overwhelming urge to give them wedgies, and that’s coming from someone who was not exactly one of the Cool Kids at school.
Mind you, there’s little chance of them creating offspring. I’ve never met such obvious candidates for life-long virginity.
@LeeMacD.
Have a read of Steven Pinker’s book: ‘The Blank Slate’.
It also shows how politicians never seem to learn that they just can’t manipulate people as easily as they think would like. Our minds aren’t simple ‘Blank Slates’ that they can write upon.
On the gender issue of why women are slightly less inclined (at this stage at any rate) to vote Yes I have only this to say:
My wife (we’ve been married 42 years) is cleverer than me. She tops me at crosswords etc. She can remember the names of all of our nephews and nieces and cousins and their respective children and all of their birthdays and what they’re doing and what clothes they like and why, and just about everything else there is to know.
Regarding visits to our relatives and their children I am vaguely aware of small people moving around the house. I see little point in trying to remember all of their birthdays.
My wife makes all the meals because I suck at it and I would probably starve if anything happened to her. I repair things like broken hinges and drawers and fix the car and I’m the one that buys the new car.
And what happens whenever I buy a new car? The first thing she asks about it is, ”What colour is it?”
It’s as simple as this guys. Women don’t think the way we do; they feel.
And when they feel the time is right they will vote Yes.
@the rough bounds-
Brilliant.
Hopefully that’s put the annoying gender debate to bed…on the correct side, with the light out.
@rough bounds
Amen.
Off topic i know but of interest all the same:
IDS said today that rich oap’s should return their benefits and guess who stuck up for them……..Shadow communities secretary Hilary Benn said: “I don’t agree with him (Mr Duncan Smith).
“The fact is we have certain universal benefits in our society, people have worked hard, they’ve paid their taxes and they get that, in this case, when they have retired.”
Now i reckon that’s a slap in the face, or should that be yet another slap in the face to Johann Lamont who has been telling us that in times of austerity we need to consider who gets what re prescriptions etc.
She really must have believed them when they told her she was leader in scotland!
Women don’t think the way we do; they feel.
I feel like I’ve gone back in time to when dinosaurs roamed the Earth.
The ‘annoying gender debate’ is an important part of the referendum. Agreeing that women are innately touchy feely and work in mysterious ways beyond the ken of men isn’t really a sensible approach to the issue.
@LeeMacD-
I really don’t want to get into this, but seeing as you quoted me (implying that I am one of the ‘dinosaurs’ you object to), please outline what ‘a sensible approach’ to the issue might be.
Prediction for 2014: similar male/female % votes, regardless of the final outcome.
@ianbrotherhood
As you agreed with Rough Bounds’ reply to me I think that you included yourself in the dinosaur catagory.
On the subject of polls it’s clear that the figures for women are not as good as men’s. Having no answer to this it seemed a good idea to wonder why. I assumed that Wings was a place to debate, not a self support group where any disagreement is construed as an ‘attack’, and where you can only take part in a debate if you have the solution.
The only sensible answer has come from Scaredy Cat who suggests that many women are too busy to participate in the debate. I can see her point, though such an obvious answer hadn’t occured to me: women aren’t engaged with the issue as they’re too busy dealing with their domestic situations as their men don’t pull their weight. I doubt very much if we aren’t getting the right polling figures from women as they haven’t felt it yet.
@Luigi
I’d probably agree/hope with you. As I said, I was puzzled as to why they weren’t polling that way at the moment.
@LeeMacD-
Whoaah!
Time out.
I’m not up for a barney over this.
Fact – I’m a ‘househusband’. Freelancing as a ‘creative writer/tutor’ etc, my average income is about 2-3k (not 23…2 – 3) p.a. It’s my missus does the graft, as a Support Worker. We get Family Tax Credits. I do the laundry, the cooking etc. Have done for the past decade.
And I’m not alone. Loads of men are in the same boat, and happily get on with it. No grumbles there. I can’t speak for the other ‘guys’, but my own experience is that women are not as interested in politics as blokes – it’s maybe something that David Attenborough or Desmond Morris could make more sense of…to do with territory, watching out for potential threats etc etc.
Bottom-line, Lee, for me – this whole Independence ‘process’ requires unity amongst those who are committed to it, and ANYTHING which weakens that unity is best avoided.
I hope you’ll accept that I’m being sincere here – the ‘gender’ arguments are divisive, damaging, and pointless. The polls can say what they will, and the BT/Daily Mail brigade can inflate whatever differences they find amongst us, but in the end-up nothing’s more important than the vote next Sept. All the other stuff can be looked at afterwards.
Let’s not fall out – we’re on the same side here.
As I repeatedly said, I wasn’t trying to start an argument, but I do object to people assigning attributes to other groups of people, whether they think that they’re being nice or not.
I genuinely sought an answer to the problem of the gender gap and was annoyed that the answers that I was getting amounted to ‘girls are made form sugar and spice and all things nice’. In discussing the process of our campaign I don’t find that very useful. It is possible to debate without falling out and I don’t think that I was being unreasonable. I thought that I remained quite polite in the face of an idiotic comment.
There is the unity of purpose towards independence but the independence movement is varied – it’s inevitible that there will be disagreement on occasion. I don’t agree with the SNP on many policies and I’ll argue about that when appropriate. I’ll also defend the SNP when our common enemies seek to divide us.
Your personal life is irrelevant (though very similar to mine once) to the point I made. You agreed with what I considered to be Rough Bounds’ archaic gender roles and threw yourself into the ring.
I don’t doubt your sincerity, as I would hope that mine isn’t doubted. If I challenge someone’s opinion and they take it badly, do you just expect me to stay quiet? I thought that Stuart wanted Wings to be a place of open debate. It appears that some posters have another idea.
this was a question put by a Jamie Black on the newsnet website on the subject of better together texting peoples phones without permission
“# Jamie Black 2013-04-27 18:48
A lot of outrage here. Serious question. My understanding is that the Yes Campaign want to send a neswletter to every household in Scotland.
Given that they will have to acquire the addresses, it’s very similar to this. Do you think that will be acceptable?
As I say – serious question.”
this appears to be the level of debate from the better together camp
I pointed out that sending a letter to the householder or the occupier is a whole different ballgame to someone acquiring your phone number and addressing you by first name when they call/text you but this seems to escape these people
John King- You can avoid the pitfalls of data protection marketing compliance by addressing letters to the ‘Occupier’. No personal data involved and lists of addresses are easily procured.
I certainly don’t expect, or want you to ‘stay quiet’, and I hope I didn’t say anything to suggest otherwise.
It seems that you really did find rough bounds’ comments offensive, but I didn’t – there will be many readers of this blog (male and female) who felt likewise but daren’t get into this discussion for the same reason I was reluctant and now wish I hadn’t: if you really believe that men who admit to not fully understanding women (and ditto vice versa) are all dinosaurs, that’s fair enough. It puts me in the awkward position of being unsure whether or not an apology is due – if I truly felt that I’d set out to offend you then I would apologise. But I know that I didn’t, so the apology would be insincere and worthless.
Then again, if I am as closed-minded as your reaction suggests, maybe I should have a long hard think about it all, but the debate about closing the gender gap probably isn’t the best place to start. It’s also sad, but true, that the same issue has been raised in other pro-Indy places by people less reasoned in their approach than you, and the result has been chaotic. (You probably know who I’m referring to, but I’m not naming names.)
Bottom-line, for me anyway, is that the gender gap is real enough, and no-one seems to know why. Rough bounds’ comments may have been a bit sweeping, but also reflect a real attitude honestly held by many. How those facts and attitudes can be disentangled and made sense of in such a way as to boost the Yes vote is way beyond my ken, but I’ll happily keep my trap shut and respectfully listen to anyone who thinks they can have a stab at it.
Cheers.
I asked a (soft) no voter “how do you know when the BBC are lying to you”
she responded by saying “when their lips are moving”
and we weren’t even talking about politics, there’s hope yet
“sneddon says:
29 April, 2013 at 7:43 am
John King- You can avoid the pitfalls of data protection marketing compliance by addressing letters to the ‘Occupier’. No personal data involved and lists of addresses are easily procured.”
Precisely my point sneddon but this goes over some others heads apparently
The thing about cell numbers is that you choose who you give that phone number to. The only time I would expect to hear an unrecognised voice or read an unsolicited text is by accident or coincidence. A stranger drops me an unsolicited political text (and I don’t care which side of the debate pulls that stroke) with the first name and good buddy routine, I’m feeling my personal, private freedoms have just been violated.
The fact that BT pulled that one doesn’t seem out of character though.
“Oh, if only that was truly the case. Going to the Aberdeen BetterTogether launch was quite an eye-opener for me, meeting young politics geeks in the flesh. I had an overwhelming urge to give them wedgies, and that’s coming from someone who was not exactly one of the Cool Kids at school.
Mind you, there’s little chance of them creating offspring. I’ve never met such obvious candidates for life-long virginity.”
just going off to work in a minute but at least I’ll be going pissing myself laughing
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha freakin hilarious
remind me not to stand next to you at a cheese and wine celebration after Independence
I hate wedgies
couldn’t agree more macart
it doesn’t matter who does it I would get really just as mad if the yes campaign did it
@LeeMacd,
As I said in my last post, that was my last comment on the subject.
I’m sure we can all agree that we have more important things to debate.
@ ianbrotherhood,
I didn’t think I was starting a debate about gender diffirence as such, my only interest is why women are saying or rather what evidence the media has for reporting that women are saying they are less likely to vote yes than men.
I want a discussion about political voting intentions and how we can view this.
I am not interested in discussiing general gender issues and certainly don’t understand the relevence of the gay, lesbian and transexual point.
Unless it furthers the Yes for independence vote, this is not the forum to bring in individuals own (often legitimate) concerns.
John King- You can avoid the pitfalls of data protection marketing compliance by addressing letters to the ‘Occupier’. No personal data involved and lists of addresses are easily procured.
Personalised junk mail happens all the time. I have a recycling basket by my front door for the stuff, and most of it has my actual name on it. Every political party has a copy of the electoral register, and sends individually-addressed letters to voters at election times. I’ve worn my fingers to the bone sticking the labels on these, many a time. I get them from the Tories, and the LibDems, and sometimes even Labour. (Some of them are so delightfully deluded, I’ve saved them.)
This is what Yes Scotland is proposing to do for the referendum. There is nothing objectionable about it at all unless you’re an ultra-Green who hates the waste of paper. To equate this with sending people texts to their personal mobile phone numbers, addressing them by their first names, is absolutely ludicrous.
@ianbrotherhood
To be honest, most of Rough Bounds’ post just made me sad, but the assertion, yet again, that women ‘feel’ rather than think things through like us logical men really does need to be challenged. That was one of the arguments used against them getting the vote, and to see it still trotted out in the 21st century makes me angry.
The gender gap is an interesting area, and there are a lot of studies commissioned to determine its cause, and solutions suggested which purport to fix the millennia of conditioning in an instant. A lot of it reports and is debunked pretty soon, such as the ‘biological determinism’ studies done to back up single sex education.
I’m aware of the previous issues of gender in the online indy movement, but that shouldn’t stop us discussing them when they arise.
As I repeatedly said, you can’t assign attributes to a whole group. It makes me uncomfortable when people say women ‘feel’ or ‘when a woman is committed she’s more committed than a man’. The latter is another much used attribute that was trotted out to explain the savage behaviour of some woman Nazi’s. The reason I brought up LBT women in the discussion was to try and show that a one size fits all argument is clearly stupid, and in response I was told, ‘I don’t judge people by their sexuality’, as more generalisations about women were made.
Women and men are humans first and on that basis deserve to be treated alike. I thought we’d moved on from the world of Janet and John, and it’s genuinely shocking to see that some people still think that that is the preordained way.
At least the ‘debate’ has lead me to consider the value of commenting online. Some people appear to think that it’s their opportunity to give their opinion unchallenged and that the only acceptable response is to wave pompoms. To me that is pointless.
Anyway, it’s sunny here and I have things to do.
Enjoy.
@LeeMacD-
Have read your posts carefully and taken them on-board. Much to ponder.
Aye, enjoy the weather…while you can!
Toodleoothenoo.