The Long Future
As he often does, Robin McAlpine has an interesting blog post up.
Now, as alert readers will know, we’ve been calling for that on Wings for at least the last couple of years. For sane people any credible hope of reforming the SNP is long gone, by the deliberate design of its leadership, and so has almost any real pretence at pursuing independence at all. The party now exists solely to milk another few years at the gravy trough off the backs of the hopelessly gullible.
But there’s a problem with the idea.
I like Robin a lot and I have a vast amount of personal and political respect for him. But we disagree too profoundly on too many major issues – “Net Zero”, to pluck one at random – to ever be able to work in the same party. So straight away (using Robin and I as ciphers for wider groups, obviously) we already need at least TWO new parties.
I could name a bunch of other people I also like and respect and whose commitment to independence I don’t doubt for a moment, but where we’d really struggle to be in the same party for one reason or another. (If that party were to take a stance on Gaza, for example, then the vastly principled and honourable Craig Murray and I couldn’t both be signed up to its manifesto.)
There’s only one answer to that: your party has to only have one policy.
And that’s a tough sell, because if you stand for election folk want to know what you’re going to do about the economy, or immigration, or crime, or the potholes in their street. “We’ll sort all those things after independence” probably isn’t going to convince them to give you their vote, because you’re telling them right up front that if they elect you, you’re going to basically do nothing.
On first sight, though, Scottish politics does seem to offer a potential route out of that, in the form of the list system. It’s just about credible to have a list-only party with a single policy. People can use their constituency vote for a “normal” day-to-day-politics party and their list one for your indy-only party.
But since the list produces MSPs, people would still expect those MSPs to sit in Parliament and vote on stuff, and then you’re back with the original problem again. (Unless your indy-only party is an abstentionist one and only shows up for votes relating to independence. And again, you’re likely to have trouble persuading people to vote for you not to show up.)
So your imaginary party forms, wins a bunch of list seats and Robin and I get elected. A vote comes up on banning plastic teaspoons and replacing them with paper ones and, with no party policy or whips to uphold it, Robin votes for the ban and I vote against it.
Now, there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that. The party system, as we’ve already discussed on Wings, is basically the ruination of all politics, and having MSPs voting with their consciences/election pledges on every issue is actually a desirable outcome.
The main problem with it is that it’s asking a lot of voters to interrogate each candidate on all their beliefs individually. The party system absolves voters of responsibility to think for themselves and encourages them just to vote for a rosette. But it’s actually a very easy problem to fix. All you really need is a party website with a page for every candidate saying “Other than independence, these are my personal views on the topics of the day, and that’s how I’d be likely to vote on them.”
However, the new fly in the ointment is that the list system basically destroys that, because you’re not voting for individuals, you’re voting for a party list. If, for example, Robin and I are #1 and #2 on the list for a region, you basically have to vote for him if you want to get me, because that’s how the system works. (And if you ONLY want to get him, every vote you cast risks electing me as well.)
So in fact you can’t be a list-only party. For individual candidates to work you have to be a CONSTITUENCY-only party. And unfortunately for our new party that’s a much, much higher threshold to win seats by. You can limp into a list seat with about 5% of the vote, but to win a constituency you generally need to be in the 30s.
The Buckaroo Principle, named by Wings in 2018 but identified by us back in 2012, is a huge problem for the indy movement in a scenario where the main established “indy” party has been sabotaged and rendered useless at best, and in reality worse than useless. The SNP has demonstrated in the last decade just how catastrophically secondary policy matters (in this case gender ideology) can rip what in reality is a single-issue party in two.
But despite what we’ve said above, single-issue voting is actually a powerful force. It can be credibly argued that it’s won quite a few major elections in recent years. The drawback with that is that independence is now very low on Scottish voters’ lists of priorities, even among Yes voters.
The reason for that is in significant part the disastrously bad job the SNP made of governing in the post-Salmond era. The party’s brand is now irretrievably tainted in terms of broad mass appeal. Which leads us back to what this site has been saying for the last few years: there is no alternative to the destruction of the SNP as the prerequisite for rebuilding the independence movement.
This article illustrates what a long road that will be. How you create a party which focuses on a single issue yet can also get itself elected is, as we’ve just established, a question with no easy answers. The SNP managed it thanks mainly to the extraordinary political skill of Alex Salmond, and figures like that come along once a century if you’re lucky. And as we’ve seen, it only takes a tiny fraction of that time for incompetent successors to destroy all their work.
(One answer people suggest is that you need a multitude of parties, not just one. But look how that’s working out for Unionists at the moment, with the splitting of the anti-indy vote between Labour, Tories, Lib Dems and Reform actually letting the SNP slither back into power. And several parties just multiplies the amount of talent you need, which is already thin on the ground, and divides effort.)
Of course, ALL of this assumes that Holyrood can achieve independence in the first place. In recent years it’s voted twice to hold a second indyref, yet no second indyref resulted. And even Salmond needed list MSPs (16 of them) to achieve his historic 2011 majority that led to the first one. You need not only votes, but the strength of will to make them mean something, the quality Nicola Sturgeon lacked most of all among her many deficiencies.
(The reason, incidentally, Wings hasn’t paid any notice to organisations like Salvo is that no matter what the legalities of the situation might be, the reality is that there’s no route to independence that doesn’t involve a clear expression of the will of the majority of the people. If you have that, the world community will likely recognise it whatever the law says. If you don’t, they definitely won’t, whatever the law says. And to get votes you need a democratic event, which means politics.)
So in conclusion: we’re in a real mess. The only road available to us is bumpy, rutted with potholes and ditches, and needs to cross all manner of rivers and chasms and mountains. We have a major shortage of talented and committed builders and engineers, and they don’t all agree on the best route or method. And even then there’s no guarantee it’ll get us where we want to go.
It’s not impossible, though. The Irish showed us over 100 years ago that with a bit of luck, skill and audacity it IS possible to replace a country’s primary independence party more or less overnight. And whatever you might think of their beliefs, UKIP/the Brexit Party/Reform achieved their main goal with, in political terms, lightning speed.
(Formed in 1993, they got the UK out of the EU in just 22 years, rather less than the 33 it took the SNP to get a single peacetime MP elected.)
The only thing we know for certain is what the first step is: burying the SNP.
“So in fact you really be a list-only party”…?? (Just above the Buckaroo graphic.)
YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I MEAN
Yes indeed.
One can’t disagree with any of your article, Rev Campbell.
WITH REGARD TO INDEPENDENCE THE SNP ARE MOST DEFINITELY THE WOUND AND NOT THE BANDAGE.
That, by now, is surely obvious for ALL to see.
I hate all the parties equally, I want more referenda.
The SNP is totally infiltrated by the brit state and careerists! As a former snp member of 30 years, they need to die and a new independence party formed.
Anyone who thinks that the SNP has been taken over by the dark forces of the English
REALLY has a far higher opinion of the abilities of the English state then I do
Why don’t you fuck off , ya buffoon . Every post you make here tries to give the impression yr being victimised , bullied because of yr yoonery : newsflash ….no one is interested in yr self-referential/pitying pish or yr trite , boring opinions on Scotland/Independence .Go away and fiddle with yr knitting
Ignore Bob. Plenty of readers are interested in your posts.
Your post is valid. lothianlad was just repeating what the other hard-of-thought eejits post – they won’t accept that the national disgrace that is HR, the SNP and the Greens has “Made In Scotland” right through it like a sad stick of rock. So of course, blame the English – the eternal, pathetic bleat of the loser.
And as a point of principle, there’s only one boy who ever gets to tell posters to do one.
And newsflash – it’s nae Bob.
Naive at best, I would say, to think that the British state has never infiltrated the SNP.
Probably far more careerist types doing damage though. (Perhaps the two are not unrelated…)
“Go away and fiddle with yr knitting”
LMAO! Hi Robert.. *waves*
Yoon Scum doesn’t believe the English State is all that bad. I see they were cited by P the other day as being the main culprit & protagonist behind not only prolonging the war but instigating it too. Good old blighty being top of the charts again for being it’s usual parasitic self. It’s just in everyone else’s country minding it’s own bizz not doing nuffink wrong, guv…
12 bases along Ps border spying & gathering intel prior to 2014..I suppose they were just there bird watching while the other half was here fucking about with indyref..
I guess this means England is off the Christmas card list & has hee-haw chance of remaining anywhere near the new seating arrangements. Especially when sovereign states discover the Bank of England can’t find the Gold they were holding for them in the vaults.. they’re short staffed apparently lol! Oh deary…Whoever came up with that explanation was clearly taking the piss to buy time to think of something else…
They’re nice ppl tho. As honest as the day is long. They’ve never given other countries gold away, no siree..well, maybe just the once but that was a long time ago..
Scotland better get out this shit show as fast as we can or there’ll be fck all left to split in the upcoming divorce..
“being it’s usual parasitic self”
It’s “its”, My Lady Geri. You really should have stuck in more at school. You could have learned something useful.
“Scotland better get out this shit show as fast as we can or there’ll be fck all left to split in the upcoming divorce”
Dinna fash My Lady – you can still be Queen Of Scots. We’ll willingly scratch you up a few bawbees to keep you in the sherbets to which you have become accustomed.
It’s it’s …that’s yer great Google auto correct for you. It doesn’t like its & I don’t proof read every post. Hate to break it to you but this is just a wee diddy chat room – it’s not fucking audition for Mensa so cool yet heels, Grandad.
Fcking Google eh? It’s shite really. No wonder they’re losing the tech war. Whoever/whomever (better play it safe) thought you’d need to correct auto correct eh?
Pointless piece of pish… Google too..lol
“Yoon Scum doesn’t believe the English State is all that bad.”
Do you practise being this dim?
As I said that anyone who thinks that the SNP has been taken over by the English state has a far higher opinion in the ABILITIES of the English state
I don’t think for a second that the UK government is a kind and benevelant entity
I think they are self serving arses
Just unlike you
I think they are also massively incompetent
Where as you think they make Mossad look like rank amateurs as they have managed to get everyone in the party that is the greatest threat to the English state to act like they are clueless disconnected idiots who are only interested in their own skin so that the true people of scotland won’t be able to become a free nation where taxes are zero and everything is free
I think that the SNP actually are clueless disconnected idiots who are only interested in their own skin
Critical thinking
Try it some time
David says:
28 March, 2025 at 10:10 pm
Naive at best, I would say, to think that the British state has never infiltrated the SNP.
Probably far more careerist types doing damage though. (Perhaps the two are not unrelated…)
Dear David let me introduce you to two of my favourite razors
Occam’s Razor, also known as the principle of parsimony, suggests that when faced with multiple explanations for a phenomenon, the simplest explanation is usually the best
and
Hanlon’s Razor is a rule of thumb that suggests “never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity,” encouraging people to consider simpler explanations for actions before assuming bad intentions.
For the SNP to be completely taken over be the dark forces of the English state. Then we need malice instead of incompetence and for a far more complex answer then for people who are politicians to be attracted to politics
As if we look at the western world they all countries appear to be suffering from the same problems caused by the same actions from the same kind of people
Kenny McCaskill on STV last night made the right noises, List vote, Independence, Grangemouth closure and the disgrace of energy poverty in Scotland.
And at least they are not gender captured.
Who cares if ALBA are having back room squabbles; heck that just seems par for the course with politicians across the board.
And no matter their background they are definitely not the nuSNP!
Robin McAlpine is not ”convinced Alba knows what it’s really for itself.”
======
Perhaps you can enlighten him – and the rest of us as well?
Well C
I would suggest Alec Salmond, Ash Regan, Kenny McCaskill and others in Alba were/ have been outspoken on Independence.
I won’t criticise anyone outspoken on independence; the nuSNP on the other hand aren’t and simply dangle carrots.
So I would vote for them or any other serious emerging independence serious party that stepped up to the plate.
Otherwise it’s c**k n’ balls drawn on the ballot paper as I will never vote for Unionist parties.
Politicos are of course at liberty to indulge in personality politics to their hearts content.
Untill the SNP has the courage to out the vietnam group they will be saddled with the fact they have at their core people who are not fit for public office and who are compromised by their actions.
The SNP cant progress while the unionists hold these cards
Can I just say that my top election issue- women and children’s rights – is not even on that list.
What makes matters worse, you have the likes of Gordon Ross talking and talking about Independence from his car and yet he will not criticise the SNP and still he pushes out the idea to his followers that the SNP is the only route but he’s not the only one.
For me, this is where one of problem lies inside the movement and It’s there to see. So why does certain people like of Ross, Riddock, Ginger, and Scotgoespop and The National who all say they want Independence are instead actively helping the SNP to stop it. I can’t believe after ten years of evidence showing and rubbing our faces into the abyss on the constitutional question, they are blinded to the evidence I just don’t believe that. They keep stringing people on to the idea the SNP is working hard to achieve Independence when this couldn’t be further from the truth the SNP has been stopping it since Sturgeon took over.
These people can actually be dangerous to the cause and they know it, wither its a YouTube post or a national newspaper you only need to listen or read what’s been said to realize the damage that can be caused by the people listening to them.
The biggest threat to Scotland isn’t England its not even Westminster it’s the SNP, I’ve been saying for a long time even on here we need to form a single party with one leader leading the movement and for me its Leah Gunn Barrett this woman has done more for Scotland than any of the above in they’re lifetimes.
We’ve all been given the same senses so why are some of us not using them. Its time certain to waken up and use your own thought process and realize that the information your being told isn’t the truth its destroying the goal we all seek to achieve Independence.
I had never heard of Leah Gunn Barrett before but decided too look her up. I’m glad you mentioned her – I’ve now got her bookmarked right beside Wings!
For anyone else curious about this woman here’s the link: link to dearscotland.substack.com
She’s a really good person and does a lot for Scotland, your welcome Willie.
Yes, I’ve been following Leah for quite awhile now. Her blogs are VERY good and there is no denying she is all for an Independent Scotland!
As you have eluded to in this and many other articles the Scum Nonce Party is a dead party walking , BUT as you are also pointing out that dead party walking is slithering through the ratings due to the apologists,sycophants and the twisted logic that people looking at the yoonionist bastard incompetent and corrupt parties are thinking at least the snp are LESS SHITE than the other parties,BUT that is only temporary,the snp can’t keep and don’t want to continue alleviating the reduction of the Barnet formula, they have shown their cowardice and true colours in begging LIEBOUR to power share
The ONLY thing that will affect the snp vote is an exposure of just how corrupt and treasonous sturgeon and her deviants have been in the Salmond trial,the THEFT of the referendum money,the deviant and pervert paedophiliac agenda rampant within the snp, the GROOMING of our kids , every one of these things would bring the snp crashing down, BUT it will NOT happen without widespread EXPOSURE by broadcasters, newspapers, investigative main stream media, and THAT will not happen because the WM establishment OWNS ALL OF IT, not only that WM are happy to let snp trough because they are NO THREAT to the union
You say eluded, I say alluded.
Thanks for that Ziggy
The parade of unionist parties covers the spectrum from the right (Reform) to the Corbynite left wing of Labour. However, pro-Indy parties tend to be universally left of centre.
Independence is my overwhelming political desire but outside that I am a social conservative who supports Israel, believes immigration must be controlled and opposes gender wokery.
What Scotland lacks is a right-of-centre pro-Indy party. If Reform is brave enough to commit to a second referendum, I, and countless others like me, would be tempted to support them. Until then, I will stick with Alba – providing they are not daft enough to select Craig Murray as a candidate.
Why do you support immigration for one country but not for the UK? The people that turn up there have no claims to the land. They’re immigrants. They’re colonisers with an incessant need for expansion & control of other people’s land, now including it’s neighbours further afield, despite legal rulings to disist & get back to its original borders.
After Indy will no voting English born filth like myself see everything I own taken from me and given to the TRUE SCOTs?
Maybe just maybe
My desire to avoid indy isn’t drive by a love of the English, the royal family, rangers, the butchers apron etc
BUT
Because I really don’t fancy living in a country run by Holyrood who appear to be
Massively against people being allowed to speak their mind and I’m not just talking trans rights I’m talking about how every single meeting is “redacted”
Massively undemocratic with every “consultation” being a foregone conclusion eg air rifle ban which was 98% against in the consultation
Massively anti business with almost all parties wanting higher taxes and more restrictions on anyone evil enough to own a business
Authoritarian with things like the named person scheme
Utterly metro-central as the idea that I can’t take a train to work is so far outside of their understanding it would be like teaching a fish algebra
Dislike the people of scotland for being too WHITE
Utterly incompetent where projects over run and over spend just as badly as the WM clowns
I’m sorry
Until we have a Holyrood that is libertarian and small state while not actively hating the people of Scotland aka FAR RIGHT
There isn’t a single reason for me to vote for indy
Nowt wrong with Rangers, YS.
Other than a batshit-crazy, tiny number of donkey-abuser-sympathisers (admittedly vastly over-represented on Wings BTL), no rational Scot believes that post-Indy, all the nominally Protestant clubs will have to migrate south.
Apart from that, 99% in agreement with your post.
In fact, most of the regulars would also struggle to argue with anything you wrote.
But they will anyway, as sure as Scottish international fitba is shite, because that’s just how many of us Scots are wired.
Our problem is politicians and political parties? And the solution is different politicians and different political parties?
Maybe I’ll just roll over and have another beer.
I think anyone involved with Salvo/Liberation would agree about the democratic event having to take place. I think it’s important that that’s what happens, but the Salvo/Liberation route also gives us the chance to have that democratic event under the auspices of UN observers and potentially UN defined rules.
I think what you say is very important, but I also think there is another crucial aspect to the Salvo/Liberation route, which is to ensure that such democratic event actually happens.
The last 10 years have demonstrated beyond doubt that political parties are not interested in and therefore cannot be entrusted with delivering such democratic event. The unthinkable has already happened: what we thought was our political vehicle for independence betrayed us and sided with the colonial parties against us. We cannot allow that to happen ever again.
Since 2016, the entire political system colluded against Scotland to suppress our democratic mandates for indyref and to deny us the fundamental right to self-determination. It is not just one party or another that has done this. It is the entire political system that is rotten to its core and that is being de-democratised to stop independence.
The route of Salvo/Liberation removes the power from the political parties to hold us to ransom. In other words, it disengages the democratic event from UK politics by bypassing it.
If there is something the last 10 years have told us, is that within the current UK political system, it is impossible for us to find a viable democratic route to independence. That route has to be found outwith the UK political system.
“within the current UK political system, it is impossible for us to find a viable democratic route to independence”
And yet Rev Stu in the article, once again, explains in short words why any “magic bullet” that doesn’t have democratic support from a majority of the voters in Scotland, is a complete non-starter.
Which did you not do – read the article, or understand the article?
Sick of your “we’re all doomed” posts, Mia.
The answer is what it has always been. Elect principled, non-idiotic, staunch Indy supporters into office – this time around, ones who won’t sell out.
Jeezzo, there’s 5 and a half million of us. Just how hard can it be to find 100 or so Scottish patriots who don’t mouth breathe and drag their knuckles when they walk?
“And yet Rev Stu in the article, once again, explains in short words why any “magic bullet” that doesn’t have democratic support from a majority of the voters in Scotland, is a complete non-starter”
And we come back again and again and again to the same crucial point: for as long as we remain subjected to the UK political system, we do not have democracy in Scotland. If we do not have democracy in Scotland, then it is impossible for a majority of voters to show support for any “bullet” being it magic or not.
The people of Scotland ALREADY have voted in not one but THREE absolute majorities of anti-union MPs. Did that change anything? The hell it did. Goalposts were moved further again.
If you go back to the interview of Ruth Davidson the year that Mr Salmond won a majority in Holyrood, you will clearly see that AT THAT POINT she accepted and expected everybody else in the political spectrum to accept that a majority of pro-indy MSPs, independently of their rosettes, was enough to call a referendum. Rewind back to 2016 and she, together with tories, labour and libdems, had moved again the goalposts. At that point a majority was no longer sufficient to call a referendum.
The goal was to send a majority of anti union MPs and MSPs. We have ALREADY done that many times over in the last 10 years. So what is the fking point in continuing playing this rigged game? Starting again? What for? To get to the exact same point and watch who the bastards betray us all again?
No thank you.
“Which did you not do – read the article, or understand the article?”
I read the article and understood the article. That does not mean I have to take it as gospel or agree with it. Or does it?
“Sick of your “we’re all doomed” posts, Mia”
Not as sick as I am of your continuous attempts to take me for a fool. I even wonder why are you so invested in Scotland’s independence when your main focus seems to be the genocide in the far east and the warmongering in U.
“The answer is what it has always been. Elect principled, non-idiotic, staunch Indy supporters into office – this time around, ones who won’t sell out”
Actually no, it is not. The answer is to find a way of completely removing the clutches of the imperial power from the process of independence. And that way is evidently far away from a political system fully controlled by the imperial power. As I already told you in previous posts, the way to a overcome wall in the middle of your path is not to hit it with your head time and time again expecting that the next time you will go through. The solution is either to climb over it, to walk around it, or to throw a wrecking ball at it and bring the darn wall down.
“Wings hasn’t paid any notice to organisations like Salvo is that no matter what the legalities of the situation might be, the reality is that there’s no route to independence that doesn’t involve a clear expression of the will of the majority of the people”
Well yes and Salvo would agree that independence needs to be the will of the people. The whole point of going to C24 and asking for Scotland to be declared a non self governing territory is that it would remove the Westminster veto on a referendum (or other type of electoral event). It then becomes up to Scotland to decide whether we become independent, not for Westminster to tell us “tough cheese it doesn’t matter what you want, not happening folks, once in a generation etc etc”
Also the UN would control any referendum and (attempt to) minimise interference from Westminster (How Now Brown Vow!). So yes it always has to be democratic, but our democracy, not asking Westminster for a section 30 and always being refused!
Spot on, PP.
In my view this kind of nutty thinking is just as harmful to the cause of independence as the SNP. There is absolutely no chance the UN is going to force the U.K. to agree to a Scottish independence referendum where the unionist side isn’t allowed to participate.
“In my view this kind of nutty thinking,…, to agree to a Scottish independence referendum where the unionist side isn’t allowed to participate.”
The only nutty person is you if you don’t think there are any unionists in Scotland itself who can and indeed will participate in any electoral event. It stops the “mother country” interfering in the process, not people in Scotland speaking for what they want! What it would stop is wall to wall one sided unionist tv coverage and “offers” for a no vote being made during the purdah period. It should stop Westminster going to every country about and asking them to speak out against Scotland’s independence.
Again – totally magic thinking if you think the UN is going to dictate that media organisations have to take certain positions, prevent the participation of Scottish unionists (like Gordon Brown) or prevent political commitments being made during the referendum campaign. There is a 0% chance the UN is going to ride to your rescue and cut the other sides balls off. That’s why you have to be prepared to fight a very difficult campaign on uneven territory. The British state didn’t think it could lose in 2014, they won’t think that now.
What panda paws says!
As ever, Aidan, you aren’t dealing from a straight deck.
@Xaracen – I’ll put the same challenge to you as I’ve put to everyone else. Can you point me to a single authoritative source which would support the view that the UN is likely to recognise a country in the context of Scotland as either being occupied or non-self governing? Even if the legal conditions were met (which they aren’t), the political context is asking for countries around the world to hugely empower their own successionist independence movements, given if it applied in Scotland it would equally apply in Catalonia or the Azores etc.
Aidan
As always it’s only you that has a nutty way of thinking.
The UN is indeed very, very interested in a little thing called DEMOCRACY. The right of a people to self determination. What they are NOT interested in is democracy deniers who continually block a country from terminating a political Union long past it’s sell by date & unfit for purpose.
Scotland is a country – currently being denied it’s democratic will through already expressed legal means – the ballot box, just because England says so.
There has to be a legal route & the UK will be forced to offer one regardless of whether yoons boycott it or not. Scotland is in a union. We’re not a possession & it was never a territorial union either.
Last elections Sir Kid Starver had just over 30% of the vote, so by your reckoning Starmer shouldn’t be PM because most of the population decided not to take part? LOLz.. Don’t give up yer day job eh? RESULT stand.
…Before that BoJo had less % than the SNP in 2019 for his mandate to ‘get Brexshit done’. Yet according to your reasoning, BoJos conservative mandate carried more weight than the SNPs did for indyref2. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Oh, that’s right, those special exceptional circumstances you think you own.
It’s the exit the UK will be forced to provide to the UN because denying Scotland an exit no matter how often it votes for one & on what % just isn’t cricket.
You may wish to brush up on international law too, especially on the rights of self determination & the recent case brought before it by SA – it is not the right of the coloniser/oppressor/tyrant/ democracy deniers to set any kind of conditions on the other party.
Scotland was an independent country before & will be again. There is nothing written anywhere that we ever agreed to be subordinate to English rule.
The UN was very interested in little old Ireland. It even sent a UN team of lawyers & an envoy to negotiate the GFA. Don’t think it won’t do so again. It’s had about enough of you colonising eejits of late – especially given the UNs very own democracy being denied & blocked at the moment over the recent State of Palestine where majority vote seem to be overruled by a handful of yobs & it’s paid corrupt lackeys thinking they own the whole place regardless of 147 votes (75%) voting to say otherwise.
& Lest we forget the European council forcing the UK to provide the parliament we voted for 20 yrs late.
& Lest we forget too, the brain fart of renaming international law as ‘a new rules based system as we go along & make shit up’ was also rejected recently by the UN.
The English coat is on a shoogly peg in all camps.
Denying a clear exit through peaceful means at the ballot box may just be its final nail.
Sanctions may well be in yer future. Scotland has territory & that territory is wealthy. It doesn’t belong to England.
Aidan
You’ve been given it before.
Other countries have written constitutions. The UK does not. Scotland doesn’t belong to England. It’s a union by consent of the Sovereign Scottish people & that consent can be revoked. Even Thatcher said so.
& The very fact Holyrood is an ‘administration’ controlled under the authority of the Scotland Act imposed on us by an English political party we never vote for should tell you we are NOT self governing & are indeed occupied. Holyrood can’t decide to scratch it’s own arse without the unelected governor general sticking his neb in to say otherwise – or we’d have indyref2 already eh? And full control over our own resources.
@Geri – thank you for writing that, I enjoyed reading it. But when I asked for a source of authority that doesn’t mean YOUR opinion. I mean provide an authoritative source of evidence.
“we’d have indyref2 already eh? And full control over our own resources”
What’s that old saying? If wishes were horses, eejits would ride!
Poor Geri. Another one who is cast-iron certain that a majority of Scots are going to vote in favour of the same bunch of deadbeats and perverts that have driven Scotland into the mire since 2014.
Note how it’s always somebody else that is going to do the heavy lifting for us. It used to be the EU. Now it’s the UN. It’s never us Scots. We’re the perpetual overgrown kids who spend our lives looking about for some grownups to do the hard stuff on our behalf.
And with impeccable timing, we’ve latched onto the UN grownup, in the very year, thanks to the rapidly developing NWO, the UN fizzles out into irrelevance.
I’m assuming you have full control over your bladder and bowels, Geri. Enjoy that, because that’s going to be your lot.
I’ve already given one.
Constitutions matter in international law.
The UN would look at the legal contract between England & Scotland & what the terms of that contract were. The Act of Union. The exact same way they look at other disputes.
They’ll not find a single thing that gives England full political & territorial control over Scotland & all her resources. What they will find is the non negotiable terms of the Union, the Claim of Right of Sovereign Scots. England never had their permission.
Same would happen with Catalonia & it’s constitutional agreement with Spain. What other countries disputes may be are absolutely zero to do with Scotland. We’re not responsible for other countries written constitutions & the UK has already been advised it can’t Cherry pick other countries agreements & try weld them as to somehow relating to Scotland – that shit doesn’t work outside of the English Supreme court & it’s bent way of interpreting constitutional law. It’d be thrown out on the international stage & rightly so. Scotlands agreement is with England – not fckn Quebec, Spain or Timbuktu.
They don’t set precedent. They have written constitutions completely unrelated to ours.
@Aidan;
I have 60 such authoritative sources for you, Aidan;
Out of the 72 territories originally listed as Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGTs) in 1946, 60 have since achieved independence and are now recognized as sovereign states.
I think that’s as authoritative as you need, Aidan.
“Constitutions matter in international law.
They’ll not find a single thing that gives … full political & territorial control over … & all her resources”
Oooo, Geri. Such a shame you sold out that principle over 3 years ago, eh?
But you and the rest of the usual suspects did, and how you simply loved cheering on the colonialist, imperialist aggressor, willfully deaf to anybody who tried to point out that Scotland needed that principle to be universally accepted and upheld.
Now the principle’s no goanny be coming back, however much you bloviate.
Whoopsie!
But enough about your short-sighted eejitry. Fits an NGI?
“Out of the 72 territories originally listed as Non-Self-Governing Territories (NSGTs) in 1946, 60 have since achieved independence and are now recognized as sovereign states.”
Brilliant answer, Xaracen, but alas, not the answer to the question that was asked.
Never mind. You lost all claims to authority, seriousness and even just basic respect, when you insisted that my country’s name needn’t be capitalised, just because you can’t bear to admit when you are wrong, even when every primary school kid in the land can see it.
Shitface
Blame the USA for the gender woo pish. World bank & the Oligarchy. Your argument falls flat on its arse it was all Scotlands deviant fault when a quick perusal of the entire West has it same policies polluting it’s parliaments everywhere.
We shouldn’t need the UN at all & certainly not any heavy lifting needed. We can blame you shitheads for that too. We’ve already a well established, internationally recognised, legal route to indy – it’s called the fucking ballot box but you fascists deny its results. What to do eh? May as well go where indy should have gone from the get go – external. To the legal international rules & the UN charter.
We have no other options eh? Unlike Perfidious Albion, we’re not all that into terrorist activities & assassinations much!
We’ve no army or even police either to enforce election results. That’s a mystery eh? & There’s wee Aidan thinking we’re self governing LMFAO!
Suck it up sunshine. You’ll be off soon away fighting the good fight under the banner of a coalition of the fuckwits. Mind pack a jumper.
Geri deploying the ‘f’ bomb – fascist.
I’m sure just about everybody will understand the meme about what that means when an online debate is taking place. But please, naebody tell Geri. She’s special – let her stay special.
And still we wonder – fits an NGI?
Fa aboots the civil war the MSM doesn’t tell us aboot?
Hoo mony miles do you get on a set of F16 tires, when it goes everywhere on the ground, because it can’t fly?
Shitface
You are always three yrs behind the news.
Let’s update you. America has already admitted it started the war. It started it in 2014, Maidan. It, along with the UK, poured in weapons & personnel to use U as a proxy. We even have Nuland on telly to the American congress should you wish to educate yerself further.
At the same time Germany & France has also admitted it had no intentions of honouring Minsk 1, Minsk 2 & the UK fucked up the Istanbul peace agreement deliberately to keep the conflict going.
R had intel of an imminent bio attack in 2021. It has since lodged that intel with the UN. The UK has since been accused of assassinating the one who conducted the report – quelle surprise. That was really bright eh?
Now, in another surprise, they admit it was all about rare minerals & fck all to do with U, democracy, it’s right to independence, R expansion or any of the other shite they spouted. It was greed. Just as everyone sane knew it was. Pure & simple. Precious metals & rare earth minerals is the new game in town & The USA & England has neither so went on the prowl to go shopping.
Think about it, ya eejit. R covers 11 time zones WTF would it want the most corrupt country in Eastern Europe run by neo Nazis & gang warfare? Only in yer head cause you button up the back & swallow British propaganda. Mind buy a fucking Poppy in November tho.
& Scotland isn’t your country. Yer an interloper. A blow in. No self respecting Scot disses their own country every chance they get.
& finally, Shitface – as for this gem regards international law & constitutions….
“They’ll not find a single thing that gives … full political & territorial control over … & all her resources”
Oooo, Geri. Such a shame you sold out that principle over 3 years ago, eh?”
You’ll find the U constitution actually states it’ll remain a neutral country & actually forbids foreign aggressors & hostile nations from any military activities on its territory. It broke its own constitution by not only setting up foreign invaders to make bases & fart about with bio labs on its territory while threatening to move in nukes but actually sold them the country too to BlackRock. No wonder the dwarf doesn’t want elections. He’ll be lucky to make it out to his safe haven when his security is removed.
That’s why the UN will reform or a new one will emerge. Other countries are demanding it. The USA & it’s handful of attack dogs think they can not only re- write international laws & agreements but also start the pish they don’t know what definitions the UN charter actually means. No one is prepared to put up with it much longer. When eejits start to invent their own pish it’s time to start again from the ground up & remove them from the table.
@Geri – as per usual you are completely wrong, the UN does not uphold the rights that peoples are granted by their own domestic legal arrangements. The rights of people’s under the UN charter are inalienable, and your suggestion that somehow the people of Catalonia would enjoy that to a lesser degree than the people of Scotland because Spain has a written constitution is a parody. No serious person anywhere thinks that argument has any merit.
@Xaracen – a key defining feature of a NSGT is that there must be ‘salt water’ between the territory and the administering power who must have non-contiguous boundaries. Hence why numerous territories like Judea, Tibet, Chechnya etc. don’t make the list. There are lots of other reasons why this isn’t going anywhere but that’s the easiest one to set out.
@Aidan;
You said; “a key defining feature of a NSGT is that there must be ‘salt water’ between the territory and the administering power who must have non-contiguous boundaries.”
But that’s not a strict requirement, Aidan. Other criteria can make that unnecessary. Gibraltar and Western Sahara for example.
“the U constitution actually states it’ll remain a neutral country & actually forbids foreign aggressors & hostile nations from any military activities on its territory”
So why are you telling me, My Lady?
Awa an tell the Orcs.
Or The Donald. He can fly to Orc Central and show poot the U constitution. That should set poot’s gas at a peep
Then you can re-start your clocks, which must still be showing the time as 23 hours into The Donald’s second presidency
@Xaracen – no it absolutely is a strict , foundational requirement. It is probably the single most important defining feature of a NSGT. Gibraltar is not contiguous with the UK and Western Sahara is not contiguous with Spain, to use those two examples.
Billy
I’ve heard various commentators say it’s the banking wankers. They seem to have a gambling addiction & every time they fuck up the Fed bails them out – illegally. They’re breaking the law because Central Banks have laws in place to protect it from abuse – they’re not supposed to bail out repeated failures but let the banks just fck off & go bust for their own stupidity but the banks run Wall Street & bankroll election campaigns so it’s a racket. They’re in the shit & re-privatising the economy. Services will go to help bail out more banking wankers. Other countries are no longer buying their debts for $ reserves they’ll just steal later like they did with Venezuela, Iraq, Afghanistan & R. The world was taking notes it could happen to them so are dumping the $. They’re also sick of their own economies fcking up cause of Americas stupidity. From what I gather, as America is a colonial empire, it will obviously spread the joy, & its debts, onto its minions like the UK who are probably playing the same game & as the $ is the world currency it can spread its shit around.
There’s an entire debate if the USA even has any Gold at all. It’s all a secret. I’m reminded of that Game of Thrones scene where the Mother of Dragons demanded the vaults to be opened only to discover there was feck all but air inside despite being assured it was full LMAO! Wouldn’t surprise me. Those shit shows are usually proven to be a facade. Wall street seems to rule the US government instead of the other way around & it’s all about to come crashing down because instead of learning lessons from previous banking crashes they’ve just allowed them to continue to fck about & lose money. Aye, well, fck about too often & find it. It’s run out of bailouts.
I don’t really understand the markets & wall street other than they don’t like upsetting so they’ve been propping up Wall street to stop everyone, everywhere else, having an episode of the vapours & a meltdown. Nothing to see here…
Who exactly said that Unionists wouldn’t be allowed to participate? That’s just ludicrous and it’s most certainly not something you’ll have heard from Salvo/Liberation. The ability to take part in a democratic event will only be stymied for those who don’t qualify. That means people like second home owners and military personnel currently based here. It doesn’t mean that Russell Findlay or Anas Sarwar wouldn’t get a vote.
Aidan
I didn’t say Catalonia would have any lesser of a claim. I said their constitutional arrangement would be completely irrelevant to Scotland. You can’t cherry pick other countries constitutional agreements & then try apply them to Scotland as if it’s universal. It doesn’t work like that & Neither does fcking about with borders. Scotland already has one & Scotland is an internationally recognised COUNTRY in a political union with England.
We are also not self governing. Just because we can choose road signs & speed limits isn’t self governing. Scotland being removed unwillingly from the EU was proof of that. An *administration* is not self governing. It’s managerial duties under the direct rule of Westminster who can, & will, (& has) revoked it at any time as it set about stripping it of powers after 2014. Our punishment for having the audacity to want to leave a leeching parasite.
The Scotland Act straight jacket, the Royal assent pish for every move & the governor general, known as the Secretary of State, proves it’s not self governing. It’s a branch office.
& Being democracy deniers isn’t a good look. Especially when you feckers have killed millions in the name of spreading democracy & Western values. It turns out yer liars & don’t even allow it at home. Who knew!
Trumps sidekick had a few words for the democracy deniers in the EU who are currently cancelling elections cause they know they’ll lose. Scotland is an ancient country. It doesn’t belong to England. There was no new state ever created. Even Thatcher said so. All Scotland ever needed was a majority of Westminster MPs. No bells or tricks. No section 30 pish. The latest bullshit from yoons to try make things more complicated than they actually are is just sheer desperation & everybody knows it or Scotland would never have been allowed to hold a referendum in the first place. Take yer Yoon gymnastics of trying to throw every spanner into the works as somehow it wouldn’t be legitimate. It’s fake news. Scotland is in a Union, a marriage, the marriage is over. It’s a country . It’s not a new country. Get used to it.
The Union serves zero purpose to Scotland or you yoons would’ve made a better job of it at least. You didn’t. You robbed it blind & smacked it around & now it’s had enough. Yer like a domestic abuser continually berating it’s partner & keeping it captive. The UN won’t like us, the EU won’t like us, the entire world won’t like us…yawn! It’s not legal to continually ignore the ballot box. Scotland gets feck all from this Union but robbed blind & informed, with such proud gusto, that it can never leave – like that’s somehow something to be proud of. If there was any benefit yoons would have produced it by now. They don’t because there isn’t any.
@Geri – the principle of self determination is universal, it applies to all people. The structure and nature of a domestic constitution is relevant evidence for examining whether a people’s are entitled to democratic participation and cultural and economic advancement, but it doesn’t fundamentally change whether people’s are entitled to those rights under the UN charter. If the UN charter provides for the people of Scotland a right to the political preference of an independent country, then it must also provide the same for the people of Catalonia and Quebec and numerous other countries/regions/provinces. Scotland is not in internationally recognised state (the term country doesn’t mean anything in intentional law), that is objectively false.
Again, you need to understand NSGT status by reference to its history and why it exists as a concept. It describes a situation where a territory is owned by a remote oversees power and historically (though not so much nowadays) operated for the benefit of that remote power. It doesn’t mean that every distinct group of people within a states borders are entitled to complete autonomy over political decision making, or to their own specific governance structures. Decision-making on a state wide basis inherently involves compromises and trade-offs, which means not every decision will be affirmed by every group at every point.
@Ian – there seems to be some on here who think the UN is going to impose an ethnicity voting requirement, and will prevent Scottish people (like Gordon Brown) making political commitments during the campaign. That just isn’t going to happen.
Scotland is in a political union with England. The United Kingdom is two Kingdoms United by a contract. That Union can end at any time. As David Davis said during Brexshit, there isn’t a Union anywhere in the world that requires the other sides permission to end it. It simply has to vote for it.
End of story.
Even Thatcher, Blair & Major recognised this FACT. It was only when England nearly lost that suddenly Mayhem & her Tory chums following started to invent new rules. Contracts don’t work like that. When the original agreement is broken it’s already rendered itself void.
The International community recognises the United Kingdom as two Kingdoms United as one by internationally recognised documents. The English don’t get to re-write them.
Catalonia will fight it’s own battle with Spain over it’s own arrangements. No one can say Oh you can’t have self determination cause then everyone will want it. Scotland doesn’t belong to England & neither does any of her territory. We know that because the Scots are Sovereign & they never gave it away because it wasn’t theirs to give. Scotland wasn’t asked. It was forced.
@Geri – the word ‘Kingdom’ does not mean anything in the context of international law. International law deals in states, and the United Kingdom is recognised as a single state. The position in U.K. domestic law and in international law is clear and is set out by the Supreme Court in Reference from the Advocate General S.30 case. I suggest you read that case in detail, it is the law and it is authoritative. Deliberately misquoting people to pretend that 2+2=5 isn’t going to get you anywhere, the legal position is as I have described it. If you think I’m wrong, provide a source of authority to prove it. I know you won’t be able to do this, and I fully expect a diatribe based on nothing but your own opinions.
Aidan, do you have a UN link for the ‘salt water’ requirement?
@Xaracen – yes, see below Principle IV
link to ilsa.org
Thanks, Aidan.
That will be the same UN that is deliberately flooding all of our countries with immigration and free movement to get RID of countries. The EU was a Trojan horse to the beginning of this agenda that George Orwell was warning about in his book 1984 with the three single world superstates – the European one that is going to include Africa and the North/South American being the another – wonder if this is why Trump is so interested in Greenland and Canada – and the Asia/Pacific being the third one with the UN being the One World Government Headquarters in this NEW WORLD ORDER they are always going on about. Everything that is going on – the deliberate destroying of our economies/cost of living SCAM, FAKE terrorism/wars, Global Warming/Climate Change SCAM etc is part of this agenda and every single corrupt political party is involved in helping bring in this agenda.
That isn’t the UN. That’s capitalism, banking wankers & the not so free free markets that require movement of people & labour.
Just listen to Trump wanting to move entire factories cause he’s losing the tech war & wants to MAGA again. Brilliant, where’s the skilled workers coming from & the skilled labour to build it ? LOLz…they dismantled all theirs & instructed Europe to do the same – now that can’t compete. Labour goes where the work is & they outsourced it.
Geri 27 March 2025 at 10:09 pm
The UN just like The UK, US, EU and every country on this planet as well as Governments including the Scottish one, Councils, Courts, Police, Health Service and every Hospital etc etc are Private Corporations listed on Dun & Bradstreet and being traded on the New York Stock Exchange for PROFIT and are all owned and controlled by the Mafias exposed in the video The Democracy Illusion on my William Woods Youtube channel. That along with the legal documents linked under that video is just some of the EVIDENCE I took all the way up to the top court here in Scotland against the DWP and Government because everything that they do is totally against Trust Law and Contract Law and FRAUD against the people – especially with regard to the totally FAKE debt/austerity agenda that every corrupt puppet political party is involved in.
Just WHY are our Governments borrowing £TRILLIONS of NOTHING from PRIVATE Central Banks when they can simply print their own debt and interest and thus inflation FREE money and thus NO need for any taxes at all – they way it used to be. That is the way to REAL Freedom and Independence by jailing the bankers and politicians and scrapping the totally FAKE debt and printing this National CREDIT on behalf of the people just like the Icelandic people did decades ago now.
No need for Scotland to be part of any corrupt UK or EU involved in that massive SCAM and every country should be INDEPENDENT from that SCAM Debt System and who is going to be dumb enough to vote to remain part of all of this when it is pointed out to them – This is what is needed to get the people to want to be independent and free and not arguing about all of the rubbish they are being fed by corrupt controlled mainstream media and political parties etc.
“The whole point of going to C24 and asking for Scotland to be declared a non self governing territory is that it would remove the Westminster veto on a referendum (or other type of electoral event). It then becomes up to Scotland to decide whether we become independent”
And how does “Scotland decide” this? We’re back to a political party again.
My apologies if I have misunderstood your comment, Rev, but I am not convinced it would be for Scotland itself to decide if it is a self-governing territory or not under the UN’s classification.
That will be for whoever in the UN decides what territories are self-governing or not according to the UN’s own classification.
The submission by Salvo/Liberation simply highlights the current situation and explains why the group believes Scotland falls within the category of a colony. It is now for the UN to dispute that or to accept it.
Once and IF Scotland is re-classified as a non-self governing territory, then, it will have to be decided if Scotland goes ahead with the referendum or not. Who will decide that? I will imagine that will be between the UN and Scotland’s colonial administrators.
Because, lets not forget, the people of Scotland have already given several mandates for that referendum on independence to take place since 2016. Furthermore, Holyrood already voted on 28 March 2017 to hold that referendum.
The anomaly is not that there isn’t a democratic mandate for a referendum or backing for it. The anomaly is that the democratic mandate for that referendum and the vote in Holyrood to hold it have been undemocratically overruled. That is what needs to be corrected.
I have put up this link a few times.
link to albaparty.org
“Professor McCorquodale sets out the that “There are two possible international legal routes available” (Paragraph 135):
“Seeking an Advisory Opinion from the ICJ. This requires a majority vote by States in the UN General Assembly to refer a legal question to the ICJ, and for the ICJ to determine the matter. It also requires a State to take this forward on behalf of the people of Scotland, which may prove difficult (Paragraph 135 a).
Make a unilateral declaration of independence. This requires a clear majority of people representing Scotland to indicate their approval but it should not be done by the Scottish Parliament, as the latter is within UK domestic law. This could be done, for example, through a convention of elected and diverse representatives from across Scotland with a clear majority in favour. This approach relies for its effectiveness on the recognition by States of the Statehood of Scotland (Paragraph 135 b).
There are no easy routes to find a remedy in international law for the people of Scotland to exercise their right to self-determination by secession and so seek their independence from the UK. However, as seen in the history of other peoples with the right to self-determination seeking to become states, while this is challenging, it is by no means impossible.” (Paragraph 136).”
@Stu as much as I hate to say it there is a certain logic to what Mia and others are putting forward around Salvo that you haven’t covered.
If the UN could be persuaded that Scotland is a colony and IF the U.K. could be persuaded to engage with the decolonisation process, that provides for the democratic event in a context that would provide for international recognition. That overcomes a major obstacle.
Secondly, this might mean that there isn’t the need for a major national party as a campaign vehicle. Whilst I think that would be the most desirable option, Brexit was achieved outside of the main party structure, so if a referendum were to be held in this context, you might get away with a campaign organisation. You also have to consider the position of the SNP, I can’t see that they’d actually campaign against independence in this circumstance.
So I can see the attraction, but the reality is the two pre-conditions I’ve described above are never going to happen, not in a month of Sundays. Scotland does not meet the criteria for a NSGT, and in fact UN GA resolution 637 very explicitly rules out NSGT status in the Scottish situation. There is no chance that countries around the world are going to agree to change this, as any change offers no benefit but huge problems to virtually all governments, with most states having some form of secessionist or independence movement. It’s leading the troops into a dead end cave, and which is going to waste time and effort at the expense of useful activities, and further demoralise the movement.
I’ve been saying for years that we need Holyrood shut down and the SNP out on their ear.
Lets be honest what is the benefit of Holyrood there is none. Its only benefited the people working in Holyrood which benefits friends and family and the sheep.
I disagree. I would vote for a party who is only dealing with independence. That is, saying that they will simply either break from the UK without negotiation, create a written constitution to control our elections and rights, and then expire themselves.
IMO it is not necessarily the sabotage of the party to stop independence at the behest of England but to stop it whilst it still has a baked in sense of identity. Once this is lost via unchecked immigration of the type England and ROI are experiencing then independence will be allowed to have priority status but mainly as a means to further isolate England if it has not rejoined the EU on its own accord or as part of what remains of the UK at that point.
Poorly worded, it is not the SNP which has a baked in sense of identity but Scotland.
We need someone with the mindedness of a Cromwell – able to stamp into Holyrood and kick everyone out. Dictatorial, maybe, but more likely single-minded instead of worrying about ‘opinions’. Works for Putin and, in some small ways, Trump…..
But where do the loyal troops come from!?
It takes about 20-30k votes in a region to elect an individual on the list, Mario Mcdonald managed on those kind of figures. That’s an easier way to get *a few* voices into Holyrood, and at the moment I think that’s the limit of any ambition, a max probably of a dozen independent List MSPs, I think any party will suffer the same fate all other parties face now, collapsing trust in political parties. I think voting for an individual, and it would have to be someone of the likes of Margo, is the only vote I could make now.
It’s a limited ambition, but that’s because I don’t see *any* change in our governance arrangements in the foreseeable future, I don’t see a political route to it with the political class and the voting behaviours we gave.
I can think of 3 other strategies:
1. Build a large grass-roots organisation from the bottom up and pressurise all parties to act on its demands [I can’t see us gaining independence without this no matter what else happens]
2. Everyone should join the political party of their choice and work to change its constitution and programme from within [lack of participation being the main enabler of the current corrupt system]
3. Each party should be encouraged to produce a clear economic programme and somehow be forced to stick to it in power [at the moment Labour doesn’t look after the workers, Tories don’t conserve small business or industry, the Liberals just aren’t, the Greens have abandoned the environment and the SNP have no route to independence. In fact the system has betrayed the voters]
Just my tuppence worth
@ JWMackenzie, you’re not wrong. The trouble is getting the single grassroots organisation. National Yes Registry tried, and still is, to get all independence groups signed up to make co-ordination easier.
They also ask all individuals to record their vote for independence on the site in order to demonstrate how many people are for independence. But not many of the latter have done so.
What no one appears to articulate is that politics has moved away from the old left, right, centre where specific policies could be relied on to be held by the majority of the members and representatives of the party(ies) that fitted that particular part of the political spectrum. All of that has been upended by the unholy alliance of extremes that have become the norm, and all political balance has been lost.
Starmer, for example, is a committed ‘Marxist’ hard leftie (see his political credentials) who acts like a committed right-winger, whose government introduces neo Thatcherite policies alongside hard leftist ‘woke’ policies that few, apart from Labour’s hard right/hard left actually want. His government is a contradiction in terms.
Swinney, a committed devolutionist, heads the supposed party of independence, the reason for his first topple from the leadership (he was not FM then) and Salmond’s return, being his middle-of-the-road, lacklustre, don’t rock the boat attitude towards independence, among other things. Again, a contradiction in terms.
The Greens have lost the plot over gender self-ID, abandoning, to all intents and purposes, their ‘green’ stance on global capitalism in favour of the high tech/pharmaceutical industries, and this they have in common with the Lib Dems whose sojourn into the ‘trans’ issue has left them minus several brain cells. Another contradiction in terms.
It really is something when the only folk who appear to represent mainstream opinion are the Tories, and I’m not sure that it all it is – an appearance of being on board the good ship “Sense and Sensibility’.
In other words, we are living in a Scotland that is, at one and the same time, utterly totalitarian and utterly fascist, the one encouraging and enabling the other and neither actually doing anything to make people’s lives better. We are living in a nightmare of extremes that is sapping the energy of the independence movement. The centre ground has been subsumed by the right/left alliance. Yet another contradiction in terms.
That this is almost wholly the fault of the SNP solves nothing except to highlight how badly a party can behave when it has been hi-jacked by people who actually care nothing for our autonomy. I include every one of the top notchers of the recent past and present. The only conclusion I can reach is that certain very influential people wish to change our society to the point where independence becomes impossible and/or undesirable by the vast majority – not because they don’t want it, but because they are being shunted into a sideline to rot.
It will come now, if it does not come via the Salvo initiative and follow-up political will, only through the destruction of the UK, and that might just be a lot sooner than any of us could predict if the UK carries on, on its present trajectory. It could well come by way of English revolution rather than anything we do., but celebrations might also be premature if we simply import the old (present) totalitarian/fascist politics into the new Scotland. Ireland, having achieved independence, is now in the throes of sabotaging a united Ireland by the same means as we are sabotaging Scottish independence. I’d suspect the Deep (British) State, except that the same is happening in England.
“It really is something when the only folk who appear to represent mainstream opinion are the Tories…”
===========
For all of my political life, I would sooner stick my head up a pig‘s arse then vote for the Tory party.
But, in 2026, if the Tories are the only party standing unambiguously against trans-fascism and its predation on women and children, then they can count on my vote.
I can hardly believe that I actually wrote the previous sentence. But I have re-read it and I did.
Cynicus @ 17.01.
You are not alone, Cynicus. However, let’s trust that there may be independent candidates or representatives of other independence parties available in some of our constituencies.
You are not the only one who has come to think like that, Cynicus. Many who would have called themselves Nationalists on the left have moved into a centrist position politically. The old liberal (small ‘l’)/conservative (small ‘c’) position has been lost. I always call it the majority working-class political position because it was both politically socialist and socially conservative, which might appear to be contradictory, too, but which was actually the balanced position. It is balance that has been lost from politics, and balance in old working-class terms, meant radical, but realistic.
“we are living in a Scotland that is, at one and the same time, utterly totalitarian and utterly fascist”
Get a grip, FFS.
The UK is living beyond its means. It has been for decades. Sure, it’s arithmetic and economics, but it’s not rocket science.
Maybe Scotland can do better economically if Independent. But Indy won’t come if its supporters go around spouting wild fantasy bilge like you just did.
No rational voter believes we’re living in a Scotland that’s “utterly totalitarian and utterly fascist”.
Robin McAlpine is not ”convinced Alba knows what it’s really for itself.”
======
Perhaps you can enlighten him – and the rest of us as well?
The above post was an intended response to Young Lochinvar at 2:53 pm
@Stu – the problem with this is it’s not just about finding the route to a democratic event (as you put it), that democratic event also has to be successful. Support for independence is a minority position at the moment and (as you highlight) not an issue of high importance for most Scottish voters. The campaign for independence therefore needs to move the dial from this position. In my view there is absolutely no chance of that happening unless the campaign is lead by a strong and popular governing party with a track record of success and a clear post-independence policy platform. It simply won’t do to be on the doorstep saying that critical issues such as pensions, currency, EU/shengen membership, nuclear power, defence etc. can just be sorted out post-independence without a clear articulation of what the position might be. Even more so if you have people in the same party saying radically different things from each other. It’ll be a field day for the unionist side who will rightly point to the potentially chaotic situation negotiating a withdrawal from the U.K. and trying to form an independent government.
That’s not to say that everything has to be nailed down in the medium term. I think there’s a convincing argument for saying “we’ll present a platform for how we withdraw from the UK and establish our own governance systems, then we’ll open up to a general election in 3 or 4 years where parties can put forward their own vision for things like levels of taxation, public spending etc”. However, the withdrawal and mobilisation issues have to be absolutely clear and robustly tested, otherwise even Indy-sympathetic Scot’s will chose the devil they know. I also do think the governing party has to be in a position to lead this, else you may end up with an immediate constitutional and legitimacy crisis.
You have a good grasp of what has to be done, Aidan. Ergo, you would be an excellent choice to stand for office yourself.
The fact you get pelters on here just provides more evidence you’re firmly planted in sane and rational territory.
The late Alex Salmond recognised that a heterogeneous country such as Scotland needed a political movement that presented a “broad kirk”, if Indy was ever to become the majority preference. Rev Stu fully recognises that too and has posted plenty of times to that effect.
Sadly though, Wings BTL has been hijacked by the kind of tax-and-spend, sophomoric, Marxist types. Their fervent insistence that an iScotland will be some kind of Bolshevik utopia tribute act simply alienates the canny Scots who are needed to turn the minority into a solid majority.
But the sophomoric, Marxist types dominate on here, and won’t be told to grow up.
I note that among all the posters jumping on the latest bandwagon, Indy to be handed to us on a plate by the UN, nobody is putting a timeline on when this momentous event will occur.
I wonder why not
Indeed and whilst I don’t doubt many of the usual suspects are sincere about their desire for Scottish independence, they certainly aren’t serious about it. Alex Salmond showed us what a route to independence was, and had a majority voted for it in 2014 it would have happened.
The sad reality is that many of the most effective voices for independence in the movement who understood how to mobilise and run a campaign and a movement are now getting too old, and are being replaced by cranks, micro-bloggers (not inc Wings) and Corbynista young people none of whom have the skills and capabilities or organisational discipline to succeed.
In my view, all efforts in the short term should be spent on trying to recapture the SNP. Notwithstanding the challenges of doing that, I don’t think this campaign can succeed outside of the vehicle of a political party, and I further think the institutional structures of the SNP will be very difficult to kill off, particularly in the British system. That leaves very little space for a new party, as we saw with Alba.
Are we not in danger of reinventing the wheel by proposing another set of new parties? The problem is the people leading the SNP and its brain dead members. How would a new party ensure its leaders and members are not, or become, equally brain dead. After all such new parties would be expected to have similar constitutions and objectives of the SNP. Whilst I am highly critical of the SNP leadership and all the weakling MSPs that take the money but never justify the privilege, Scotland does not have the time to start again before all out resources are stripped to pay for England’s follies.
The differences between individuals on anything else than independence have no real relevance until we are independent. You and Robin are kindred spirits on the important issue of independence, plastic v paper spoons differences are immaterial and should be secondary to the main objective. If we want independence sooner rather than later, the effort should be made to change the people in the SNP first before “starting again”.
You can’t have a single issue party when the issue isn’t the ongoing genocide. Any party that two-sides that is necessarily going to have some despicable ****s in it. I’m with Craig.
Somebody still wanging oan aboot the “genocide”. Bless.
I thought they’d all moved oan. I hoped they’d all shipped oot.
“The only thing we know for certain is what the first step is: burying the SNP”
Mmm. The first step for me is to bury SNP, Greens, Labour, Tories, Libdems and Reform. I do not see any more urgency in burying the SNP than in burying the rest of the lot, to be quite honest. In terms of the dichotomy Independence vs “union”, those 6 parties are on the exact same side: against Scotland. I see no advantage at all in burying the SNP whilst resurrecting the others. ALL of them have to go and seen to be gone.
In my view, the ISP was the only political party that showed full commitment to actual independence during the last general election. The rest campaigned to take the green seats, to swear allegiance to the English crown and to legitimise the union with their interventions in a foreign parliament. To me that is to completely defeat the purpose of independence from day one of your mandate. It is the opposite of seeking independence.
“There’s only one answer to that: your party has to only have one policy”
I could not agree more. However it is not only about having one policy. It is also about how that party purports to deliver that policy.
“And that’s a tough sell, because if you stand for election folk want to know what you’re going to do about the economy, or immigration”
This is were we diverge. In my view, if a candidate is seeking real independence for Scotland, then they cannot swear allegiance to a foreign crown and cannot take a seat in a colonial administration which has been specifically designed to suffocate any attempts to deliver independence. Independence is incompatible with the preservation of a colonial structure.
For me the tough, actually impossible, sell is pretending to seek independence for Scotland whilst wanting to take an active seat and role in the day to day running of what is, at all practical effects, a colonial administration acting on behalf of Westminster. Both things are incompatible.
For as long as Holyrood is tied in the straight jacket that is the Scotland Act, it is not and will never become Scotland’s parliament. It is a colonial administration.
For as long as “our” MSPs keep swearing allegiance to a foreign crown so they can take the seats in that colonial construct, they are not “our” MSPs and they will not work for “us” either. They are King Charles’ MSPs and therefore they will work to preserve King Charles’ interests.
Scotland’s independence will never be in the crown’s interest. It is precisely the crown who pushed and forced its way during the 18th century to get this toxic “union” up and running.
Therefore, the first step in the path to independence will be to disengage Scotland’s parliament from the crown.
Consequently, if somebody comes knocking on my door claiming they are seeking independence for Scotland by taking seats at Holyrood or Westminster, I will stop their speech and politely show them the way out of my property. I am simply not interested. As far as I am concerned, it has been the attempt of riding those two horses what has led to the complete and unforgivable waste of 10 precious years of Scotland’s time.
Meanwhile, during those 10 years, the colonial plunder of Scotland has continued at pace and the proportion of Scotland’s native population have continued to decrease.
I will not be fooled for that lie anymore.
The Irish showed us the way a long time ago. I do not see why the wheel has to be reinvented.
After what we have seen in the last 10 years, if a candidate was seriously campaigning for independence, the only reason to take a seat in Holyrood now would be to pass a bill to ditch the Scotland Act and to fully disengage Holyrood from Westminster.
But let’s be realistic. That is never going to happen. And that will be because the main attraction of taking the seat is to profit from a nice salary and pension. Once you get the salary, your main priority will immediately become to preserve that salary for as long as possible – ie, independence becomes the main threat to the continuity of that salary.
In other words, either you stop those people taking the seat or any dreams you may have of them delivering independence afterwards would quickly become a pie in the sky.We have seen it happening over and over again during the last 10 years.
If a political party committed to not taking the seats, committed to overrule Scotland’s MPs and committed to reconvene Scotland’s parliament emerges before 2026 and campaigns on the list, I would happily cast my vote for them.
But that opens another problem. If that party campaigns only in the list, it leaves the question of what to do in the constituency. My objective is for Scotland to reconvene its old parliament. I have no interest in being ruled by a colonial administration whose only purpose is to legitimise the plunder of Scotland’s assets and the destruction of Scotland’s demographics.
I rather burn in hell than ever casting my vote for the SNP again or for any of the other colonial parties. That leaves me with only two options: either I spoil my constituency ballot, or I do not vote in the constituency at all.
Which brings me back to the turnout. Until we have the opportunity to vote for real pro-independence parties in both the constituency and the list, my only hope is to decrease that turnout as much as possible to render the election worthless.
Well said Mia.
It is your site, Rev, and you have suffered for your efforts to free Scotland.
I just don’t understand, despite your explanation, why you don’t see the value of spreading the word about the Liberation movement. It cannot do any harm, surely? And it would do a great deal of good in increasing the number of people who understand the falsity of the Union.
I know I have said this before, as have Iain McGlade and panda paws above, once Scotland is recognised as a non-self-governing nation by the UN, that fact alone erases the argument that only Westminster can make a referendum legal. Westminster would have no role to play. They could say “Now is not the time” until they are blue in the face but it would have no power to prevent Scotland’s politicians from holding a vote on leaving the Union.
At the next democratic event the pro-independence politicians could ask if we want to leave the Union.
What’s not to like?
@ Sarah – it will be three weeks tomorrow that your submission was presented to the UN. Please enlighten us all with you reply you have received, you can’t hide in the bunker forever.
Seeing you have already sent your letter to the UN
Should filth like me be packing so we can leave ASAP?
As if the UN do phone up Westminster first thing Monday morning and say Scotland is now an independent country
It will be the current lot in Holyrood who will be handed full powers
And
I really don’t fancy the idea of being force to suck a trannies cock or be jailed for transphobia
That and the idea that owning property is evil and all businesses are to shut down
REALLY doesn’t fill my soul with facepaint, bagpipes and haggis
It will depend on your residency.
That’s how decolonisation rules work. Zero interference or influence from the colonialists & their minions.
Don’t feel bad – you dont feel bad when EU citizens don’t get to vote on your shit either. Welcome to Karma…
@Geri
It’s not happening. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Still, every cloud etc., eh.
As a place to the English dark overlords
Should I expect to be jailed on day 1 of FREEDDOOOMMMMMMMmmmmmm when the Un say you are a free country
or will you revert to having the death penalty for ("Tractor" - Ed)s and I will be find myself hanging from the nearest lamppost
Hanging heid doon frae the nearest lamppost, YS.
While a trannie sucks yer cock.
That’s gonna be the penalty for hate crimes in iScotland, such as the one you committed earlier:
“I really don’t fancy the idea of being force to suck a trannies cock”
Hey, don’t blame me! The likes of My Lady Geri are going to be the ones making up all the rules.
Look on the bright side. You might just go out with a smile on your face. I hear some of these trannies are really skilled
I wouldn’t bet on it, Cappy.
Trump is a narcissist & narcissists hate being undermined, spied on, some yap stealing their thunder, being gazumped in rare earth minerals, being made an arse of in the EU & add in a big pinch of shit stirring over R-gate, a generous dollop of lawfare shenanigans & you’ve got one triggered angry President on the warpath looking for payback – all the things above is what Little England/MI6 currently stands accused of at the moment.
An invite to meet Chucky & take America back into the colonial rule club (Commonwealth) won’t bleach that fcking insult from his memory. They’re not back to the 1700s again. They already got their independence & told you to fck off. They even celebrate it every year.
He’s on the prowl for some prime strategic real estate with vast seas oop North, energy rich, resource rich & close to Norway & all his friends. England is skint. Capital already abandoning it I flight as wee speak & they’re having trouble locating other countries Gold they were holding for them. Oh deary… Shipping insurance sales are down too.
Then there’s ole blighty over at the UN, accused of all sorts including war crimes, crimes against humanity & defying direct rulings ..
U isn’t exactly chuffed either. It’s country has been trashed & is now a lot smaller thanks to BoJo.
Then it’s meddling in the Baltics now…
Finally R. Already cited as being the antagonist since 2014..
It’s not looking great with the *international community* is it? Lots of knives are out..
An ideal time for a colour revolution & regime change – see how they like it. Clip its wings once & for all. They’ll never revive their Empire so may as well agree to break up what’s left of it & the UK – that’d hopefully shut it’s face for good.
Scotland will be independent anyway. We’ll not go away. It never went away in over 300 yrs, pal. It’ll never go away & the likes of you won’t stop it…
My Lady Geri, you forgot to throw in just how angry President Trump is gonna be when he finds out his F16s can’t get off the ground, and most of his weapons don’t work.
Have you told Musk as head of DOGE yet? He’ll be furious too.
Why not use your executive powers to get your message through to the Oval Office? The Donald likes rubbing shoulders with blue bloods. I’m thinking that you continually just posting the same bombshell revelations on here night after night maybe isn’t getting the traction your earth-shattering findings deserve.
You’re pissing in the wind in fact, pardon my coarse language, My Lady.
hey geri
When Scotland leaves the Uk after the UN dissolves the British royal family
Do you think the UN will turn a blind eye to you slaughtering people like me who might not think that Braveheart is the best documentary ever created?
Afraid you’ll be head of the queue for slaughtering YS.
Unless you can re-invent yourself as an Ozzie antisemitic midget. That might buy you a pardon from the Braveheart boys who believe that Hollywood fantasy is a documentary. One of them used to quote bits of the script on here, claiming they were the true utterances of William Wallace
But to be serious for a mo. I wouldn’t worry about the UN. It seems to be the case that the only thing keeping it functional was the willingness of Uncle Sam to bankroll it. Now the splurging with cash has been slowed by The Donald, it’s going to fizzle into even more of a toothless talking shop than it was before.
Might is right. Small and ineffectual nations will do what their big, aggressive, imperialist and nuclear-armed neighbours do. Luckily that’s precisely what many of the regulars have been cheering on for 3+ years now. While the UN looked on, futilely wringing it’s hands.
Whoopsie!
There was always a risk this resurgence of 19th century colonialism would come back to bite Indy on the ass, and now it’s looking like it has.
I guess the moral is, as always, be careful what you wish for. Not that they’re gonna learn anything from it – they never do.
Maybe you could start a wingsoverscotland party based on what you propose here?
It could be crowd funded to stand in the constituencies where there is most support and build from there.
If it has a clear constitution from the start stating what it aims to do it might prevent the collapse we have seen with the SNP.
Ofcourse it would be a very long and slow progress, Alba is demonstrating that and whilst I do still believe in the long term potential of Alba I think more solutions are better than less.
I think if Alba makes the breakthrough in 2026 that can lead to bigger results in 2030. However if that fails your party could be starting to make progress by then.
Actually the Lib-Dems ARE the problem.
Instead of representing the great mass of middle-ground voters who don’t want to give government too much power and want it to just focus on making sensible decisions, the old Liberals allowed the disgruntled moderate wing of the Labour Party to take them over, and now Labour is more left-wing than it would naturally be and the Lib-Dems now think their role is to be the conscience of the nation, and tut-tut from the sidelines. (they really, really don’t want power).
If you had a more robust centre-ground, the worst excesses of left and right wings would be neutralised.
I think you would then stand a chance of pro and anti Putin, pro and anti Gaza, pro and anti Trump viewpoints tolerating each other.
You might even -with the right leadership- carry the people with you to independence. Only a broad church will win that.
Honet John, sitting on his hands, is doing his level best to suffocate the SNP, so everything could be up for grabs if the bitterness abates (no chance matey).
“Formed in 1993, they got the UK out of the EU in just 22 years“
======
A rare -and VERY(we shall see) surprising slip from one who got so many iterations of the Kippers spot-on.
This party was actually formed as The Anti-Federalist League two years before by a Scotsman named Alan Sked.
He stood for election in 1992 in the consistency of – wait for it –BATH!
So, the present residence of our host can also claim to be the cradle of the Kippers!
SKED is probably the most influential figure in the history of modern politics whom no one has ever heard of.
I believe you could start by prominently and often stating that the health service’s future is secure under Holyrood control.
And prevent American companies from gaining interest or control in any part,and inform the EU and UK supreme court (the name says it all ) that it can not overrule or prevent any future power grab or hostile act against it.
“I believe you could start by prominently and often stating that the health service’s future is secure under Holyrood control”
Actually, I am not really sure that is true. Since the political fraud Sturgeon took over, the privatisation of Scotland’s NHS by the back door has been relentless.
It should also be argued why on earth the NHS should have been involved at all with quangos like LGBT youth Scotland or others or with the trans nonsense in the first place.
The “equality”, “inclusion”, “pronouns”, gender id, etc, etc, etc, are all political fads. Why should the NHS direct some of its ever reducing budget in real money terms promoting and passively campaigning for these political things? How much money has been wasted in the NHS promoting those things since Sturgeon took over?
How on earth can the NHS ever be seen as neutral when it is being abused as the (no so) passive campaign arm of the Sgov of the day? The Sandy Peggy case should have never happened if the NHS remained truly politically neutral.
The only way that the NHS future can be secured as Scotland’s national service is through Scotland’s independence and by completely remove it from the control of politicians and from political interference.
“The only way that the NHS future can be secured as Scotland’s national service is through Scotland’s independence and by completely remove it from the control of politicians and from political interference”
Oh yeah, sure. An NHS completely removed from the control of politicians and from political interference would be one that is completely privatised, and owned and managed by offshore multinationals.
Like Amazon or Tesla.
Looks like your AI post writer is malfunctioning, Mia, or perhaps MAI.
Yes, it is political in the sense that it is being underlined and enabled by politicians and politics, but it is actually a social movement in its desire and determination to overturn societal norms. This is its most basic aim. It is actually far less interested in placing men in frocks in hitherto female spaces as it it is in subverting social and legal norms, although putting men in frocks in hitherto female spaces is part of it, as the ‘boots on the ground’.
It is the destruction of organised, democratic society that is the intention. The only really organised, democratic societies on the planet are in the West. The downfall of the West will herald a very different kind of world where the ensuing chaos will open up opportunities for all kinds of ‘grabs’ and lay the foundations of a new society infused from top to bottom with ultra advanced technology and less human input, fewer jobs apart from the lowest paid drudgery, which, in turn, will be replaced by robots, more money-making opportunities and greater access to global opportunities unfettered by rules and regulations, and, particularly, democratic institutions.
“An NHS completely removed from the control of politicians and from political interference would be one that is completely privatised, and owned and managed by offshore multinationals”
Would you say that the prosecution service, the so called “UK supreme court”, the police or the BBC must be constantly submitted to political interference because the only way they could possibly be completely removed from political control is by privatising them?
Can’t you not see just how absurd that is?
You do not need politicians to stick their nose in the NHS at all. The only thing they do is mess it up, over and over again. The only role they should have is to decide the amount of money they would allocate to it. Most times the politicians don’t even have a clue what they want and have totally unrealistic and costly expectations. Political decisions made during Covid have plunged the NHS into its current precarious state. Political decisions put elderly patients with COVID back into care homes, infecting others. Political decisions related to the nonsense of gender ID have sent NHS Fife to the courts. And let’s not start with their many other pie in the sky ideas.
The NHS should be controlled by a totally independent and non partisan committee.
FFS MAI.
As long as the NHS is funded through taxation it will be subject to your “political interference”. You’re another one who needs to get a fecking grip on reality.
I say privatise the fecking shambles.
Let’s get us some of the health care they have in France, Germany, Italy, all those places you yearn to be united with in your beloved EU.
I’ve visited them all. Never did I see the bodies of the medically untreated piling up in the streets.
And there’s plenty of solid stats telling us they all have better outcomes for just about every disease known to mankind than we do.
Just as we know that when Eastern Europeans, such as Poles, come to Scotland to work, they bring their own dentists and GPs with them. It’s the only way they can get the sort of timely consultations they’re used to back in their home countries.
“As long as the NHS is funded through taxation it will be subject to your “political interference”.”
Right. How is the police, the BBC or the prosecution service funded if not through taxation?
“I say privatise the fecking shambles”
Well, I say do NOT privatise the NHS. Remove it from politicians’ control to stop it being a shambles.
” “As long as the NHS is funded through taxation it will be subject to your “political interference”.”
Right. How is the police, the BBC or the prosecution service funded if not through taxation? ”
Gowd MAI, nobody has posted more on the political interference into the workings of the police, the BBC and the prosecution service than you, yet when you want to point score and avoid admitting you got it wrong, you now choose to pretend these institutions are impartial!
There’s another poster wanting to use AI to write his political manifesto.
Tell him which one you use, so he can give it the old body swerve.
Panda paws @ 3.33pm
I agree: the UN route needs to be more widely recognised. International recognition is very important.
But most importantly, as Pandapaws points out, is that a referendum can be organised outwith the say so of the UK government. There would be UN monitoring for fairness. Given what happened in the last referendum, that’s a crucial step.
So, the Salvo/UN step needs to be more widely appreciated as a vital piece in the independence jigsaw.
Meant to say protection from after prevent
Apparently Mark Carney gave Bloomberg an interview where he admitted Net Zero was an invention/mechanism to award points & subtract points to different countries in order to control capital & loans. Maybe Robin should hunt down the interview.
In a world currently at wars everywhere over oil & gas security l can’t see the myth of all that climate bullshit continuing for much longer.
Be nice to the planet, aye. Cut off yer nose to meet fake targets? Not likely.
The Brexit Party, whatever you think of it, contained ultra-tories, libertarians, revolutionary communists and social democrats. Whatever you think of trans issues, UKIP was full of conservative old colonels and simultaneously had gay and trans MEPs (before trans people’s affairs became hijacked by a misogynistic cult). Single issue broad churches are possible but need a leader, so who is the Scottish Farage?
The pro-independence parties and Independents don’t need to share all policies. They only need to share one. That was how Dave Thomson’s Action for Independence [AFI] would have worked – he had SSP, ISP and others under the AFI umbrella. They kept their own party policies but agreed that independence was the priority.
This meant that people could vote for their preferred party but the cumulative votes on the list would count as for AFI, so AFI would get seats.
Unfortunately this plan wasn’t put into action because Alba was formed and wouldn’t join AFI. AFI candidates stood down in order to give Alex a free run in 2021. A wrong decision as we now know.
We have another chance to operate an umbrella in 2026 because Independents for Independence will be standing. They are individuals, obviously, but will combine, I believe. Barrhead Boy is engaged in supporting the I4I project.
The Manifesto for Independence [M4I] is another form of umbrella. It is proposed by a brand new independence party, the New Scotland Party. Again the independence parties [ISP, SSP, New Scotland Party] would have their own policies but include the M4I in their manifestos. [ISP has already committed to the M4I.]
Adopting the M4I commits parties to 1. Reject s30. 2. Make the election a plebiscite for our right to self-determination. 3. Recall MPs and form a Constitutional Convention. 4. Hold a referendum on leaving the Union.
A majority vote for all such parties/candidates legitimises this vote – after all, the people are sovereign under the Claim of Right [that Right which Charles Windsor had to swear to uphold].
Given that there is one new party, the NSP, and also the I4I, surely we don’t need yet another one? We just need the process explained to enough voters.
“Adopting the M4I commits parties to 1. Reject s30. 2. Make the election a plebiscite for our right to self-determination. 3. Recall MPs and form a Constitutional Convention. 4. Hold a referendum on leaving the Union”
Sarah, I see a few problems with that manifesto. The first is “recalling MPs and form a constitutional convention”. A political party can only recall its own MPs. It does not have power to recall the MPs from other parties. You would have to rely on their good will “to agree to be recalled” and to voluntarily giving up their salaries. We all know how unlikely that would be. Currently, the majority of Scotland’s MPs are labour. So that is never going to work.
What that manifesto for independence needs is to include a mandate from the people of Scotland to OVERRULE MPs and to bring back the powers, currently in Westminster, to Scotland.
As it is, the union is currently being preserved because Scotland’s MPs continue to sit in Westminster, legitimising that parliament as “the union parliament”. They could have ended the union 1,000,000 times’ over since 1707, but they chose not to. Scotland’s MPs are and have always been the real obstacle to Scotland’s independence.
Another problem I see with that manifesto is points 2 and 4. Aren’t they the same thing? If you designate the election as a plebsicite on independence, why do you need then another referendum? Isn’t that an overkill?
The only way that makes sense to me is if what the manifesto is asking for is a mandate from the people of Scotland to give Holyrood full power to call the referendum. But, personally, I think it is redundant and unnecessary. If you already designate the election as a plebiscite on independence from the get go so the people of Scotland can instruct with their votes to overrule MPs and to bring all powers back to Holyrood so it becomes Scotland’s parliament, you do not need a referendum. THAT is already at all practical effects a referendum on independence.
Or I am missing something obvious?
It is probably me over-simplifying the Manifesto for Independence, Mia. Go to the New Scotland Party site to read the full version and let me know what you think!
@mia
To keep this comment manageably short I will deal with the points in your last two paragraphs.
“points 2 and 4. Aren’t they the same thing? If you designate the election as a plebsicite on independence, why do you need then another referendum? Isn’t that an overkill?”
Actually no they are not the same thing. Please go to the website and there you will find the full description.
“The only way that makes sense to me is if what the manifesto is asking for is a mandate from the people of Scotland to give Holyrood full power to call the referendum. But, personally, I think it is redundant and unnecessary. If you already designate the election as a plebiscite on independence from the get go so the people of Scotland can instruct with their votes to overrule MPs and to bring all powers back to Holyrood so it becomes Scotland’s parliament, you do not need a referendum. THAT is already at all practical effects a referendum on independence.
Or I am missing something obvious?”
The Manifesto for Independence (abbreviated M4I) is a coherent set of steps that need to be done in the order as set out.
The M4I states very clearly that the crucial first step is to have the People of Scotland Exercise their sovereignty and vote for their parliament to TAKE BACK the power to decide over constitutional matters. All else can then flow from that.
So your assumption that the idea is that ‘you designate the election as a plebsicite on independence’ is the the thing that is wrong.
“The only way that makes sense to me is if what the manifesto is asking for is a mandate from the people of Scotland to give Holyrood full power” OVER THE CONSTITUTION.
Indeed, rather than commenting on a half formed idea of what the proposal is, I would ask you to Please go to the website and read all the explanation that is written there. [1]
Indeed if you would like to communicate directly with those who have been working on that proposition then please do get in touch.
[2]
As it says on the website:
Contact New Scotland Party
Take back our government! Take back our parliament! Take back our nation!
If you have any questions, comments, or suggestions, we would be delighted to hear from you.
[1] link to newscotlandparty.scot
[2] link to newscotlandparty.scot
@aLurker
Thank you very much for your comment, for the clarifications and the links to the manifesto for independence.
I have now read it carefully and reflected on each point.
I appreciate this has been a product of very careful thought and consideration. There is a lot to be thankful for. In my view, it is the first of its kind, an ice breaker and it should be given all the credit it deserves.
My comments/queries are simply my own opinion and in no way aim to undermine the hard work and careful thought invested in creating that manifesto or the credit it rightfully deserves.
I simply seek to give the architects of the manifesto food for thought and an opportunity to clarify queries which other people may share with me and which, if unvoiced, would remain unaddressed.
The first point in the manifesto, about repudiating the section 30 process, is one I fully agree with and one I believe to be both obvious and necessary to move us from this stasis.
This manifesto deserves a lot of credit on this point already. Other political parties have enthusiastically embraced the Section 30 route as a convenient shield they can hide behind and use as their excuse to avoid progressing independence. Signing to this manifesto means letting go of that absurd “shield”.
The second point in the manifesto is one I sit a little bit less comfortable with. The point says “Declare one or all future Scottish Parliament elections to be a plebiscite on the question of the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to facilitate the exercise of Scotland’s right of self- determination”
I fully appreciate that the best way of breaking the current stasis regarding the constitutional competence of Holyrood is by the people of Scotland taking control and directly overruling MPs through a democratic mandate. If I have understood correctly, this is what this point seeks. However, I have a couple of queries/concerns regarding this point:
a. The manifesto only refers to Scottish Parliament elections.
However, the actual power this manifesto intends to bring back to Scotland currently sits with Scotland’s MPs at Westminster. For that power to be brought back to Holyrood, you will need at least half of Scotland MPs to agree with this point in the manifesto and be ready to give up that power themselves so it can be transferred to Holyrood. In other words, you cannot have MPs who actively hide behind the English convention of “westminster’s parliamentary sovereignty” as they are all doing right now.
Currently, Holyrood does not have control over Scotland’s MPs therefore it cannot force that transfer. You need full compliance from MPs, therefore MPs must be instructed directly by the people of Scotland to effect that transfer.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think this can only be done if the candidates elected as MPs sign to that manifesto too prior to their election and therefore this can only be ensured through a general election.
In fact, we need both. We need candidates to MPs and to MSPs to sign to that manifesto prior to their election and make their election conditional to that manifesto.
b. The point says “one of all future parliamentary elections”
I am sure I am misunderstanding here, but why just one? If it is only one, we run the risk of being rejected first time round and that is it. Because this is the most crucial point over which the whole strategy sits, the whole process would come to a halt and would be over before it started if that part fails. I think it should be EVERY single election (Holyrood and Westminster) until that power has been transferred and sits with Holyrood on a permanent basis.
There are many instances through Hansard where the persistence of the Irish people seeking their independence was acknowledged by the imperial power. It was precisely that “in your face” persistence which made impossible for the imperial power to keep dismissing the desire of the people of Ireland to get their independence back.
“In your face” persistence therefore is key for Scotland too. Persistence is keeping at it at every election until the objective is achieved.
(Part 1)
@Lurker
(Part II)
The third point of the manifesto is
“Assert the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament in matters relating to the constitution, on the basis of its democratic legitimacy and the sovereignty of Scotland’s people, citing the fact that this is the only way the people of Scotland can be enabled to exercise our human right of self-determination.”
This point is ideal. There is absolutely nothing for me to disagree with regarding its contents. However, my concern with it is that, currently, Holyrood is not Scotland’s Parliament. Holyrood is only an administrative unit from Westminster.
Westminster is the parliament of the union and it gets its legitimacy from the Treaty and Acts of Union. Westminster has no legitimacy to dive into Scotland’s pre-union constitutional laws, to change them, to enact them or to add to them. It can only create, repeal or enact “UK” laws.
Because Holyrood is a mini-me of Westminster, it has the exact same limitations.
Therefore, in my view, the first step to ensure that Holyrood can actually assert the legislative competence of Scotland’s Parliament and enact Scotland’s own constitutional laws and traditions, is for Holyrood to become Scotland’s Parliament.
That means for Holyrood to ditch the Scotland Act, fully disengage from Westminster and recovering its full powers. That is, at all practical effects, ending the union (through violation of article III). Ending the union means Scotland de facto returning to its pre-union sovereign state status.
To tell you the truth, I am not sure this can ever be done if MSPs take the seats in Holyrood because of the implications of having to swear allegiance to the monarch (and to his heirs and interests) before taking the seats at Holyrood.
In my view, the only feasible way you can do this is by reconvening/forming a parallel parliament that neither swears allegiance to the crown nor is bound by the Scotland Act.
This parliament would have the authority given directly by the people of Scotland through a manifesto that gives those members of parliament such mandate. In other words, you would be using the UK election system to completely bypass Westminster and its “mini-me” (Holyrood as stands today).
“In my view, the only feasible way you can do this is by reconvening/forming a parallel parliament that neither swears allegiance to the crown nor is bound by the Scotland Act.”
I’ve been thinking (aka’idly musing over’)along these lines for a while. For a variety of reasons.
Now that you have familiarised yourself with NSP and what its aims are, can I cheekily suggest you subscribe to Peter’s substacks?
This his latest article, which I found VERY interesting.
For a variety of reasons
link to peterabell.substack.com
Thank you, Nae Need!. I will.
The answer is simple, watch Brewster’s millions & get everyone to vote for the new geriatrics on the block leading the party called zzz-NoTa or “None of The Above” the zzz’s cover the boring plebs currently sitting in Edinburgh & guarantee the party will be listed on the election papers at the very bottom. As for disagreeing with each other – the whole point of politics was supposed to be that you can agree to disagree so not having a whip & letting every elected member vote their own conscience would in theory be more democratic not less. After all how much worse could it be than having a grey suit in charge as we do at the moment!
The days of ‘hold your nose’ and vote are gone, especially when the parties involved have no real commitment to independence. A single issue party might be the order of the day, given people are so disenfranchised with just about every party out there.
Another option is to decouple the constitution from the holyrood parties so that their performance no longer soils the cause. They focus purely on the ‘day job’ whilst committing some of their party funds to a separate independence convention, and committing to the strategy of the convention to gain independence should people vote for it. Theoretically of course a Scottish tory party could back the convention, not that they would, but it removes the ownership from party politics.
Sara Salyers made it quite clear that international recognition lies at the heart of independence – from 25 mins on from this link.
link to x.com
Going to the UN for support is a key step in proving internationally that Scotland’s independence intentions are serious, competent and professional.
Don’t forget that even with UN support there would still not only be interference from the UK, but also internationally as well. Scotland has economic and geopolitical strengths that the status quo position will not give up easily. So any expectation that a yes vote in Scotland, without prearranged international support, would mean that international recognition would be automatic is naive.
Nobody cares what the UN thinks or says as it is a completely useless organisation that will die under Trump. The UN recognising anything is meaningless eg Gaza, Ukraine, the Balkans etc etc etc etc etc. If this is your only route to independence please find something else to dream about for your own sanity
The UN played a crucial role in ending apartheid by condemning the policy, establishing an arms embargo, and promoting international pressure through sanctions and boycotts, ultimately contributing to the regime’s decline and the establishment of a non-racial democracy in South Africa.
International affairs are complicated. Black and white views seldom survive in the long term.
“it is a completely useless organisation that will die under Trump”
Actually, that very much depends on your point of view, doesn’t it?
In my view, actually, Trump might be giving the UN the opportunity of the century to reform. The UN can remove their veto and end, for once and for all, the unfair privilege a handful of imperialistic countries have been exploiting to their advantage from the UN’s inception.
In the UN, every country should have the exact same rights and their vote should count the exact same. Out with the imperial veto.
The UN will reform. The imperial veto will be removed to reflect the new word order. Trump can either reform with it or be left out looking on from the sidelines. BRICS is putting paid to the single world currency & all of its abuses of weaponising the $ to threaten compliance & rig voting or else.
It looks to be precious metals, rare minerals & energy security exchange that’ll replace the $. Hence the panic for the colonisers to invade/ take over Palestine, Lebanon, U, R, Canada & Greenland to name a few. All that vast land – as yet untapped. The USA & UK don’t have any of their own rare earth & Gold is questionable – so they’ve been on the prowl to loot it from somewhere else. Big tech needs it all & China has a tidy sum of Gold. Hence they’re picking a fight with them next.
@ Geri
So the current invasion of P, Syr, and Lbnn is because they have rare metals? Is that the real reason behind Trump’s “Riviera of the Mediterranean” brain fart?
I have been wondering for quite some time about what the real connection between the war there and the war in U was. That there is a link I never had any doubt, looking at the origin of some of the oligarchs behind Zelensky and the fabricated revolts that sparked the war in U.
I thought it was geopolitical – to keep R busy fighting on its own borders and out of the conflict in the far East – if I am not mistaken, the takeover of Syr by the zio failed the first time round because of R’s support to Syr.
Putting their paws on the rare metals is obviously the main objective of the yanks, and possibly the England warmongers’. But the Zio’ main objective is surely to take over of the land.
Collusion of imperial interests indeed. The U people have been taken for absolute fools.
Mia
P, Syr, and Lbnn is because they have oodles of untapped Gas in the Golan Heights & oodles of untapped oil in the Med.
The UN had already ruled P owns a share of the oil & the Heights remain part of Lbnn. Despite Isr occupying the heights it’s not theirs & not recognised as theirs under international law & were ordered to leave by UN resolutions they just ignored. They’re just terrorists every is to ignore. So something had to be done. It seems to have decided to eradicate the problem entirely, mow the problem down & just dispense with that sharing malarky. Syria & Lbnn is energy security, oil & fertile land Isr needs to remain viable. Lbnn the gas. The USA needs control of the resources & shipping routes as per usual. Yemen has blocked shipping routes until they stop gen-ocide & allow aid & medical supplies into Palestine- severely disrupting Isr trade & getting shipping companies to insure. Apparently it’s not cool to be humanitarian these days & they’re just terrorists we’ve all to ignore. Turkey became embroiled in Syria because they’d big plans on running Gas pipelines through it with UAE before Assad had the cheek to say no. So l, you guessed it – he was a terrorist too & had to go. Turkey wanted controlling the Gas supply to the EU & Isr but UAE isn’t fussed now that LNG can be shipped far cheaper..
R is also energy security for the entire EU whose pipes just happens to run through U as well as owning a share of Nordstream 1 & 2 with Germany before the US sabotaged number 1..but they’re also blessed with rare earth minerals that big tech needs so they start a war with the aim to take R out of the picture – another terrorist & dismantle it into bite sized regions with puppet regimes so they can control the entire EU energy supply before they move onto China & Iran who rely on R oil too & cut off their supply because they’re terrorists too. China also have loads of rare minerals the West needs to get their mitts on, not only for big tech but for weapons too for their trillion dollar complex & to stop BRICS & the alternative shipping routes of Chinas Belt & road initiative.
Are we noticing a theme here of how everyone is a terrorist except the one actually invading, illegally expanding l, breaking international laws & killing everyone in the process? There they were – just minding their own business when ‘terrorists’ just happen to take objection to their lands being stolen from them….how dare they!
A great deal of it is racism too. The KKK have now moved full operations to the Med.
@Geri
Most interesting Geri, thank you.
So it is imperialism at is rawest. And the trio USA-UK-I are right at the epicenter of it.
And then the waste of space and MI5 candidate Starmer has the cheek to talk about conscription.
I say give him, Rachel Reeves, Lammy and Swinney a rifle and drop them right at the border of R. They can wave there the U flag and shoot at their heart’s content. I do not see why our children have to be dragged into their stupid and ill-advised neoliberal wars, their disgusting pro-genocide agenda or their pathetic determination to prop up a decaying dollar.
Perhaps somebody should remind them that the currency of the UK is still Sterling Pound, not the dollar, just in case they might have forgotten.
Mia
They’ve only themselves to blame & they cannot reverse the damage they’ve done by using the $ reserve as a weapon & their payment systems.
BRICS members, especially China,R & India, have already implemented their own version of Swift & Cloud, two systems silicone valley & Wall St dominated, & there is talk that there’ll be no single dominating world currency but everyone just use their own & have a metals exchange. A dual currency & this has been a success already because it means when America has yet another banking crisis, it hasn’t affected their own economies. Being frozen out of Global trade & thousands of illegal sanctions imposed on forced them become self sufficient & America is now raging mad other countries are joining for an alternative payment system, Cloud & AI without the threat it’ll be taken away when America has another strop. They were warned not to just steal other ppls reserves (Venezuela, Afghanistan, Iraq & R to name a few) but they just did it anyway while other countries looked on wondering if they’d be next on their list – so they’re applying to join BRICS to protect themselves.
They’re also gunning for China because it has made alternative trade routes through their Belt & Road initiative, heavily investing & upgrading other countries ports, rail & roads that are equally beneficial to both parties for trade & in some instances even brand new infrastructure for the first time despite colonisers being there & doing zero for yrs. (Global South & Africa) R is also helping them with energy infrastructure. This cannot be allowed to continue either because Little Engurland & America must have full control of all shipping routes & control trade. No alternative routes allowed & England relies on the financial side of shipping insurance.
R supplies China with cheap oil. They need that stopped but that plan has backfired with Z losing the war. Same with the Zzs – yahoo wants an Empire of his own in the ME & take out all his neighbours, inc Irn so he can supply the EU with oil & Gas. That won’t fly either because China & R need Irn routes.
The Anglo American hegemony is over & it’s about time. Couldn’t happen to a more devious bunch intent on world domination & domination over all tech & digital banking & you only have to watch a few WEF get togethers to see what horrors they have in store for citizens if they got their way. Automatic banking stopped, personal micro chips & no one to own anything & stop ruining their planet – we’ll all eat bugs & be happy..lol.
Never mind all that shite, My Lady Geri.
We all want to hear more salacious details about “silicone valley”.
I’m guessing there’s a link to Love Island there somewhere, so C’moan, let’s hear your goss.
The gods is yer getting humped big style .
I’d have thought you’d be spitting feathers, Mr Shiteface *show me the money*
Sir Kid Starver is pouring all that money into U at an enormous cost to to us despite no legitimate deal. Z isn’t President & his regime can’t change it. Their own constitution doesn’t extend his term, even during wartime, so he has zero authority to sign any agreements, peace deals or sign away the countries resources to anyone. Awww Sir Kid Starver has squandered so much time & energy on that shit too, 24/7 since taking office while the UK burns.
Oh deary. Looks like Trump doesn’t like reminding that applies to him too. Another eejit that forgot he was talking to a lawyer & not a TV reality star. No agreements until legitimate elections have taken place.
& Fck off, ya spell checking grammar wanker. Do you never have anything of value to add to a convo? Naw, yer just the village fckwit around here trying desperately to be noticed..
Go cry into yer Yoon blankie at all those billions squandered on zip, NADA, nothing & just to top off yer day, UK bullion will be moving, to *drum roll* brown ppl. Fancy that LMAO!
It’s funny really. While you yoons have been dissing Holyrood & the gender woo nonsense – Sir Kid Starver, Stamer, Stormer lol, has sunk little England to 3rd world status.
“Getting humped big style”
I guess that’s for me to know and you to wonder aboot, My Lady Geri. But isn’t your interest a smidge unhealthy?
Fa’s the goss aboot the silicone valleys ye were dangling earlier? Ye’ve goat oor excitement rising (
) in anticipation o some juicy details.
Dinna leave ony thing oot
One of the clear points that Sara Salyers makes is that by empowering a constitutional convention with the votes of the Sovereign People of Scotland we will be both providing a legitimate mechanism that the international community can be at peace with, as it complies with established international law and practice and also completely circumventing the blockage of ‘British’ ‘domestic’ (English) law.
From 59 minutes in:
https:// http://www.youtube.com /watch?v=1gwDuBRuYQ0&t=3515s
Thanks for the link – makes it easy for people to hear the case for themselves.
I think we need the common sense party. It is amazing the amount of common ground there is between people of a detain age from all across the political spectrum.
That party is not REFORM.
I note that the Alba Party favours a republic. The following is from their website under the headings Policies/ Scotland’s Constitution:
“THE SCOTTISH REPUBLIC
“A written constitution starts from the principle that the people of Scotland are sovereign, in keeping with the Scottish constitutional tradition and as such we propose to the consultation that Scotland should move to an elected head of state with similar powers to that of the Uachtarán na hÉireann (The President of Ireland)
“ALBA have started a petition calling on all parties to get behind an independent Scotland scrapping the monarchy. You can sign this petition by clicking the link below.”
link to albaparty.org
Jeezo, the “Scottish constitutional tradition” was for Scotland to be a monarchy. For century after century of our history.
The Gaels constitutional tradition was for each clan to have a hereditary chief. Probably always male, too. Each chief would owe fealty to the monarch and nobody else.
It really grinds my gears when so-called, self-identifying “protectors of Scotland” are so pig-ignorant of what Scotland and the Scots actually were.
Other readers won’t get annoyed though – they’ll just fall about laughing.
The monarch was on notice. He could be removed.
The Scots were sovereign, not him. He was elected to do as he was telt by parliament. Not the other way around like it is with the English.
Scotland will be a republic because we’re not racists wanting relics to the colonial bullshit they espouse & continue to do so. They can fck off to their tax haven & gies all peace.
“The Gaels constitutional tradition was for each clan to have a hereditary chief. Probably always male, too”
==========
Within living memory Dame Flora Macleod of Macleod refutes the second hypothesis.
You are on more solid ground with the first element- although primogeniture was not the automatic mechanism until relatively recent centuries. There could be election within a patrilineal group of descendants from a distinguished chiefly forebear.
This is possibly how the historic Macbeth was preferred against the claim of Malcolm, son and heir of king Duncan I. He foolishly led an army against Macbeth in Moray in 1040 when he was slain in battle,
So, there was an ancient constitutional tradition of election to chiefly or (even Kingly) office among Gaels of antiquity.
Good points Cynicus.
The key takeaways remain that the hereditary principle was paramount. Where the heritage was more diluted (through marriage or siblings perhaps), it still applied.
As it happens, I believe the hereditary principle is a sound one and that is why it re-occurs over and over throughout history and in all cultures.
It’s manifestly self-evident to any ordinary Scot who keeps livestock, or pedigree cats or dogs.
“Scotland will be a republic”
Awww, Geri, and there was me wanting you to be my queen.
Sure you won’t change your mind? There’s something michty regal about a pronouncement like “Scotland will be a republic”. Try running it through your heid, but with posh pronunciation like the late Queen used to use.
See fit ah mean?
Are you thinking what I’m thinking? Let’s get up Arthur’s Seat the morn and I’ll show you your kingdom laid out before you. We can skip the 40 day’s fasting for now, although we’ll need to come back to that afore the royal portraitist looks in.
I’ll check the bus times and get back to you.
Let’s get this bid for the crown on the road, My Lady.
1. Create a new party (I like the name “Coalition of Independents”)
2. Use AI to generate a manifesto aiming to do the maximum amount of good for the maximum number of people.
3. Create a website that allows for crowdsourcing and modifying the manifesto on a per-constituency basis.
4. Crowdfund the deposit for each constituency and allow anyone who donates to tick a box if they’d be willing to be the representative for that constituency.
5. Use a blockchain smart contract to select a representative for each constituency, put them on the ballot and have them sign a contract to only vote in line with their constituency’s manifesto on pain of deselection and prosecution.
6. Sell the party as an alternative to the usual shit show we’re all tired of.
In terms of seeking independence for Scotland, it might allow a new referendum because we could allow English people to have their say on the matter too. So the reasonable ones would vote yes to allow another referendum because it’s the right thing to do to allow self-determination. And the gammons can vote for another referendum “to get rid of the whingeing scots”.
From the WoS archives:
Rock posted on 22.09.2014 in “A lie won’t fly”
“Our job now is to form a Yes alliance to fight the next UK election with just one manifesto item – full Scottish independence.
And we must keep the 45% fully motivated.”
To be very honest, nothing is ever going to work, because Scots lost their backbones a long time ago.
When once, they would be literally fighting for independence, most of those who are in favour of independence don’t have the guts to actively demand and fight for it.
The Scots of old would have seen through the New SNP and the biggest tractor in Scottish history right away and would have made them history a long time ago.
Instead what we have is gullible morons who keep on voting for New SNP so they can feel good about “supporting independence”.
IMHO, the earliest I expect Scots to rebuild their backbones will be in 2640 AD.
By that time, they will have been outnumbered by non Scots.
But I have a brilliant idea.
Scots can and should give the rights to oil, gas and other resources to the USA, while Scottish descendant Donald Trump is President, in exchange for full independence and a 25% share of the profits on the said resources.
I think SALVO’s research into the historical Scottish constitution is of fundamental consequence and offers us indispensable political and intellectual anchorage. Our linguistic heritage is also a taproot from which we sever ourselves to our incalculable loss. Scotland has existential foundations providing contemporary and future stability. Let us investigate and critique these, rediscovering the continuum of our historical community, globally re-transmitting the best of our legacy. Not prisoners of our past, but avoiding any delusive “Year Zero” hubris born of inevitably disastrous ignorance. Cultural amnesia portends national dementia. Let us dig deep and reach high. We are not yet dead.
There’s a big education job to be done about the Salvo stuff. I’m not Scottish, though I’ve lived here for 20+ years, so it’s been a learning curve for me. My Scottish pals haven’t known it either. Some like it, but some seem to be in denial. The young people need to know.
Don’t know if you’ve noticed but there is an increase in the removal of Scottish voices from the media.
Can’t remember the last time there was a Scottish voice on any of the comedy progs on the BBC
The removal of River City, I don’t watch any soaps, so not a fan, is another attempt
Easterners gets the full treatment
The 40 year anniversary spilt over onto other progs
There is no funding for a 2nd Rebus series.
I read constant complaints from the MSM that Shetland has had its day since Dougie Henshall left, etc, etc
So I agree there’s an attack on our voices
We’re being silenced
I completely agree. And it is another reason to stop watching, reading and supporting the BBC.
Scotland needs to have and control its own broadcasting channels.
The Spanish regions have had control over broadcasting for four decades already. They got their broadcasting powers less than ten years after the fascist Franco died.
It is therefore beyond outrageous that 10 years after Gordon Brown told us that we would get the most devolved parliament in the world, we have not yet control over what is broadcast in Scotland.
If Spain was perfectly capable to devolve broadcasting less than 10 years after full on fascism, what exactly is stopping a supposed democracy as the UK claims to be in handing broadcasting to Scotland?
There is no valid excuse other than broadcasting being used as a colonial tool to actively suppress Scotland’s own heritage and culture.
It is a colonial tool. It’s widely accepted the BBC won the NO vote by playing propaganda TV 24/7. England will control the content.
Even NI, an annex, has full control of its broadcasting. It’s a joke & yet further insult to a supposed partner of this rancid union.
Salvo need to take full advantage of social media platforms, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram & guest on alternative news media sites. All the young ppl use those platforms on a daily basis.
I got sick at the realisation you don’t oppose the current genocide and didn’t read further (a first for me) but I gather from the opening paragraphs that you probably wouldn’t have joined a party led by Salmond either because he definitely would have taken a moral position on this as he did other foreign policy issues. For me an ethical foreign policy is one of the top if not the top reason for wanting independence.
As someone who had family members sent to Iraq – I absolutely agree. If you can’t prevent your young men and women being sent to illegal wars – then what’s the point?
Awww.
Marie’s family members volunteered, signed up and swore oaths to do a job of work.
And now she’s puling and greetin because they were asked to do that job of work.
It’s bringing tears tae gless eyes all o’er Scotland as I write.
“signed up and swore oaths to do a job of work”
Did they now?
Are you openly acknowledging then that signing to join the UK army does not involve patriotism at all and it is instead to fully agree to actively commit and aid genocide, to illegally invade other countries, to blow up civilians for the sake of it, to blow up other countries’ gas pipe lines in order to deliberately provoke a proxy war, and to steal other countries’ resources?
And that was me thinking the majority of our youngsters were lured in to the army thinking they were doing a service to their country rather than to the disgustingly corrupt and greedy fatcats ruling the rooster and hoping to profit from the chaos and the theft of other countries’ resources.
I actually wonder why anybody would ever bother signing to join what looks like a an army of mercenaries. I see no much difference between such an army and a bunch of unsophisticated hitmen hired by the “cosa nostra”.
I think the sooner our youngsters are aware of the real nature of the “army” the better.
Fit “current genocide” is that then?
Surely not the one that could be stopped this weekend, just as it could have been stopped every weekend since October 2023, by the simple expedient of releasing a few hundred hostages (down to just a few dozen now).
That “current genocide”?
Get a fecking grip, man.
If an “ethical foreign policy” and “moral position” means siding with and cheering on murdering, torturing, raping and kidnapping jihadists, you better get yourself a larger capacity bahookie.
Because that’s where you’re going to have to stick them.
There’s actually very little evidence that I’ve seen that would suggest the Scottish people as a whole, or even the pro-independence (roughly) half of them, share your take on the matter rather than Hatey’s though?
Many of us take a similar view to Rev Stu’s oft repeated line (both here and on X) that both extremes on this issue are culpable. It’s perfectly possible however to think that the over use of the term genocide devalues both the concept and insults the memory of those peoples who have been subject to genocidal actions throughout history.
The fact that so many, chiefly on the left, are unable to discern the difference simply shows that they are adept at self delusion and assuming they speak for all Scots, when in fact it’s vanishingly unlikely they do.
//youtu.be/RB5RUV8by00
Watch and weep.
The problem with Alba, and I say this as a member, is that the SNP have done an outstanding job of making them out to be so toxic that their own members would rather put unionists into Holyrood than more pro-independence members.
I think we need to make a distinction between the “bittereinders” who insist on remaining as SNP party members and the lumpen electors who still vote for them irrespective of their abysmal record and the suicidal leadership of Mr & Mrs Murrell. Of course the slavish Sturgeonista Loyal contingent hate Alba and Salmond’s legacy. That (shrinking) activist layer are however not representative of the movement as a whole.
Time will tell whether enough “ordinary” pro independence voters wise up and switch before #HR2026 elections. I have my doubts enough will do so to “do an IPP” on the SNP the way Irish voters did to a party seen as milquetoast devolusionists in 1918, but we don’t necessarily need an extinction level event (pleasing as the though undoubtedly is) just for the SNP to be denied a majority and find itself dependent on “real” independence parties for a majority.
At this stage, if that doesn’t work we might as well call the game a bogie and stop wasting our time. If this generation lacks the political smarts and balls to bring about a majority, and ensures that Westminster is aware that we’re not asking but telling, then we might as well go an do something more useful instead.
I know for many they think that all that needs to happen is for a magic piece of paper to be submitted to the Un and we are instantly the richest nation on earth as we will be free and scum like myself will vanish in a puff of blue smoke or preferably pink mist
BUT
I think you need to accept that leaving the union with the fucking hated English
Is a minority interest
What can you point to from the last decade that will convince soft NO’s like myself to vote for FREEEDDOOMMMmmmm
if you point to the failure of the idiots in Westminster then you have acknowledged that Holyrood is no better
It’s “ruling the roost” MAI.
“ruling the rooster” is probably something our Scottish overpaid and underworked elites get up to when they put their furry costumes on and snort some marching powder.
Once again, your AI has let you down. If you’re going to persist in using it to write your posts, at least have the decency to proof read them before posting.
Thanks in advance.
Rev, I believe this can be done. A list only party “Independence Alliance “. Get all the small
parties together with one policy; Independence! When asked about policy answer “our aim is
to show the world the strength of our desire for independence “. Invite the SNP to join the
alliance. When they refuse, the country will see where they stand. Leaflets telling the
electorate how successful an independent Scotland could be delivered every week to every
household. We, the former SNP activists, are still around and ready to go with this. We have
just over a year to do this. We need to start now. Some of the excellent people in the smaller
parties could get this moving.
I’m going to don a helmet & take cover for this but I’m begining to think Robin is part of the problem.. everything is set for miles into some distant future with him..
I can give examples..
Back in 2016 he argued St Nicola shouldn’t call indyref2 cause “they weren’t ready” so soon after 2014 – say what? A landslide GE, a triple mandate on her desk & Brexshit shenanigans of stripping powers but we’d all to hold?
Then the leadership contest. Ash Regan had indy right there on the table. A plebiscite election, every election going forward- again with the doom & gloom – Ash didn’t set the room on fire, didn’t have what it takes to command a room – best wee stick with Freeport’s feeble Kate on the never, ever, neverendum bus & the ever elusive section 30 golden ticket.
Then the SNP is bad but they still may do it despite knowing all the shit they’ve pulled towards Salmond & completely trashing the party democracy & Holyrood, but still, they could reform..zzzzz
Now this… we’re off to 2031 & even then, well…Zzzzzz
I think he’s more letting the side down..
Indy is bigger than one person. Holyrood will be closed before Scotland gets it’s shit together at this rate – then we’ll all be bombarded with books on could’ve, would’ve, should’ve.
Carpe Deim, people! Seize the day. Make use of time & let not advantage slip!
I don’t believe polling. They can be rigged to say whatever the person collecting the data wants it to say. Everyone is bound to know at this point that we have pocket money & fuck all trade deals to bolster our economy or have any powers over immigration FFS! Where do these responding eejits live? It’s certainly not in Scotland. We have a branch office & some administrative duties. We’re not magicians.
Start as many parties as we can. Nothing wrong with a full house of indy on the benches. No good having all our eggs in one basket. A lesson we should take from ten yrs of the SNP.
Good points there , G .
I respect Robin and commend the effort he puts in to suggest ways to improve governance and his perceptive critiques of the many failures of the SNP/GOV : though that is akin to the fish+barrel+shotgun equation .
My frustration with him is , as well as the things you mention , his , seeming inability/unwillingness to * cliche alert * think outside the box , or even display awareness that his thinking is often of a contained cuboid nature .
It sometimes seems like he thinks the Liberation of our country is like winning an election , ie if we just get the right strategy and assorted water fowl in an orderly arrangement all will be good .
Of course it’s vital to have intelligent people applying intelligent strategy , but , this in itself will never be enough , because something as epochal , revolutionary even , as regaining our status as an Independent nation is at it’s core not predominently in the realm of the intellect , but , rather , in the realm of emotion , feeling .
If you look at the antecedents of just about every major societal/national shift , they arise through people , usually * ordinary * people FEELING thoroughly pissed-off , oppressed , disgusted with the status quo and being motivated to change that situation .
Did the insurgents in , eg USA;France;R****a;Ireland etc ask permission from that nebulous concept ” the International Community ” before taking action ? In the case of the latter , which we often refer to as a template , the protagonists of the Easter Rising didn’t even require a ” mandate ” or ” democratic imprimatur ” before acting , they simply acted , and the people followed – at least enough did to have the desired effect .
Different times , different circumstances , of course , but the essential requirements are the same . Courgage , Will & unwavering belief in the correctness of the endeavour .
Fits “Courgage” then, Bob?
Has it something tae dae with “Cougars”?
Ye sly, dirty wee dug, ye!
Fits “Carpe Deim” aboot then, My Lady Geri.
Is he the orphaned urchin character in Underwood’s unimpressive novel about the 19th century herring trade between Aberdeen and the Baltic ports?
“Abody kens wee Carpe Deim”. That was his catchphrase, right?