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Plenty more fish in the sea

Posted on March 19, 2018 by

We’ve been scouring our picture archives all afternoon for something more surprising than the fact that the UK government has screwed over the Scottish fishing industry again after it voted Brexit and Tory in 2016 and 2017, and we found this one.

See also: literally anything else that has ever happened on Earth.

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    1. 19 03 18 17:56

      Plenty more fish in the sea | speymouth

    307 to “Plenty more fish in the sea”

    1. jimnarlene says:

      The sad thing is, the world and their dogs saw this coming.
      Nose, face and spite.

    2. Ann says:

      As they say NEVER TRUST A TORY.
      Serves them right.

    3. bobajock says:

      Many’s the time I watched a BBC broadcast of the struggling fishermen baring their teeth at a government who would support them, while bending over to be shafted by one that wont – again and again and again.

    4. Donald MacKenzie says:

      Wonder how the Tory members that were elected across the North East coast are going to answer this one.

      Many of us saw the lie being sold to fishermen. But they wanted to believe it was true.

      They can take their revenge when they get a chance to vote.

    5. Calum McKay says:

      Not belong before Bertie gets his gong!

      For dis-service to Scottish Fishermen!

    6. Luigi says:

      Hook, line and sinker.

      Up shit creek without a paddle. Britannia Bertie was the pilot who promised they were going somewhere with BREXIT.

      Has he resigned yet?

    7. heedtracker says:

      OOH! An actual Union Bear.

    8. geeo says:

      So now that Ruth ‘red line’ Davidson has announced she WILL NOT support ANY brexit that does not involve full control over fishing policy (out the CFP) i just cannot wait to hear what she will now do about what her master at WM has done to her !

      Not that anyone in the media will actually ask her such a pertinent question mind you…!

    9. schrodingers cat says:

      the union bears appear to be sh1tting on their own doorstep and not in the woods

    10. Luigi says:

      Ann says:

      19 March, 2018 at 5:06 pm

      As they say NEVER TRUST A TORY.
      Serves them right.

      Indeed. Only themselves to blame. Just as naïve as the Corbyn voters.

    11. wull2 says:

      The bear is only doing what WM has done to Scotland for years.

    12. Marker Post says:

      Wow. I wasn’t going to bother reading the draft withdrawal agreement, I mean it’s 129 pages long.

      But I searched for “fish”, and it took me all of 2 seconds to realise what a cop out that is by Her Majesty’s Government.

      “The UK shall be consulted”
      “The UK shall be given the opportunity to provide comments”
      “The European Union may exceptionally invite the UK”

      Who the hell is negotiation this stuff? Frank Spencer?

    13. louis.b.argyll says:

      Time to poo-poo the one sided ‘Act of so-called Union’.

    14. louis.b.argyll says:

      Scottish unionists actually WANT to be number 2.

      They trust in perpetual irrelevance.

    15. Andy-B says:

      I’m finding it very difficult to feel any sympathy for the fishermen getting screwed over again.

      They decided to remove a bloody good MP in Angus Roberstson, and vote in a Tory bear, who couldn’t give a toss about them.

      Maybe the penny will drop before the next indyref, however I won’t be holding my breath.

    16. manandboy says:

      BritNats in Scotland always trust their Colonial Masters, the English Ruling Class. It’s what they have been conditioned to do by three centuries of brainwashing, even when it means being covered in John Bull’s shit.

    17. Bobp says:

      Mentality of these fishermen unf*****gbelievable.

    18. galamcennalath says:

      Going to be classic comedy watching how Ruth and her dwarfs deal with this.

      HOWEVER, remember, nothing has been agreed until everything has been agreed. TMay has not signed up to a legally binding exit treat. They have no legal obligation yet to stick by these transition terms. They can crash out instead at the last minute. Fish solved. DUP and hard right appeased. ‘Real’ Brexit delivered.

    19. walter scott says:

      A cynical person might think some Scots want to harm the prospects of their own country. Does any other country in the world have citizens who hate to see their own country get the best deal possible? This place is just weird.

    20. Hamish100 says:

      Ouch Bertie is rogered and out!

      We are unionists surely Scotland comes first ? Puir wee souls

      After 2020 Davies says it’s our fishing ! Got it bears in the union. It ain’t Scotlands it’s there’s. It was always going to be theirs.

      Tories in NE resign and stand again. You have failed.

      Vote Brexit out vote independence

    21. Sandy says:

      The fishermen who put the gull in gullible.

    22. Dr Jim says:

      Looks like Berties plan to buy more boats and rent them out to poor people will have to wait

      Run that up your Union flagpole Bertie

    23. wull2 says:

      When all the fish have gone, my ashes will be left alone, with all that plastic.

    24. Ken MacColl says:

      The only surprise here is that that some of our fishermen did not see this coming!

      “Fool me once……”
      Is that a red card that I see?

    25. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 17:38,

      Ach, Snow White Gal will just do her disappearing act again and BBC Mogadon Branch will continue to pretend nothing of significance has happened, in this the best of all possible servile worlds.

      Right up until the time we plunge off the cliff with the lunatics. (Where, just like St.Valery, there won’t be a boat waiting.)

    26. PacMan says:

      I’m no businessman and never be involved in such activity but it seems to me in you get involved in any transaction with anybody, especially with one that has more power than you, a bit more bargaining power than a gentleman’s agreement is required to get a favourable outcome.

      It is hard not to make the assumption that these fisherman’s business acumen isn’t that great?

    27. Thepnr says:

      “In an astonishing letter sent to Theresa May last Friday, and leaked to the press last night, 62 Tory MPs called on the Prime Minister to break her agreement with the EU over the transition period and to quit the customs union and single market.

      These included Scottish Tory MPs Colin Clark, MP for Gordon, Alister Jack, MP for Dumfries and Galloway, and Stephen Kerr, MP for Stirling.

      However now Ross Thomson, the MP for Aberdeen South, has added his name to list of hardline Brexiteers.”

      From The National

      These 62 Tory MP’s are part of Rees-Moggs hardline Brexiteer “European Research Group”.

      What I find interesting is that despite Scotland voting Remain by 62% to 38% there are more Scottish Tory hard Brexiteers than there are in the rest of the UK!

      Scotland = 30% of elected Tories
      rUK = Just 19%

      Simply unbelievable when you think all the Scottish Tories represent Remain voting areas.

      No surprise though to see Ross Thomson in there among them. He is a bit of a bawbag with a great deal to learn about what being a Tory really means.

    28. yesindyref2 says:

      Yeah, but where’s the pope? Is he checking out agriculture?

    29. Morgatron says:

      Andy-B totally agree. No sympathy at all for these greedy so and sos along with their treatment of two excellent MPs in Alex and Angus. By Jingo Blighty Bertie , what a massive tit he looks now along with these greedy fisherman, they would sell anyone & anything down the river for more money. Hahaha 🙂

    30. robertknight says:

      Vote Tory – Get Shafted


    31. Let’s be fair: they’re fishermen, not astute politicians nor rocket scientists.

      They had to be told, then threatened, then fined to stop overfishing and consequently killing their own industry.

      They were told that to the UK Government their interests were expendable, multiple times. It happened before.

      They’ve proven to be greedy, reckless and gullible.

      Their loss. Scotland biggest export is farmed salmon. We don’t need boats for that.

    32. Ken500 says:

      Bertie and Tories are lying. Some fisherman overfished the seas. They grew back dead fish for years. They landed black fish. They were taken to court under UK Law and fined, £Millions. The Buchans (£16Million). They broke UK Law but blame the SNP. The unionists who did not want to pay UK taxes. The fishing minister was a Home Counties Tory who did not have a clue.

      Recent negotiations with Scottish Gov (SNP) representation – Richard Lochhead with the EU representative meant quotas and grants were being increased with agreements to use bigger nets and improve conditions. The Norwegians always used bigger and had better conditions. Built trawlers and supply boasts. Faslane stopped commercial activities on the Clyde. Thatcher.

    33. Dan Huil says:

      A grizzly picture for Britnats in Scotland. How many bleedin’ times must you be conned by Westminster before you realize the truth?!

    34. Greg says:

      STV HAVE reported that the fishermen are angry with not only the Westminster government but the Scottish government as well ? Can anyone enlighten me as to why the Scottish government are to blame? ?

    35. Gary45% says:

      I take no pride in what is happening to the fishing industry. The Yoons gave them false hope ( probably with the intervention from the failed ” Tory deep sea idiot” Buchan)that the grass really is greener under “Brexit Tory Britain”.

      The gullible farmers will be next to get the Tory rodgering, then all we can do is see what happens at the next election, if they vote Tory again, the country is FKD.
      I expect Ruth the mooth to be interrogated by GM Shortbread tomorrow morning, then again there’s more chance of Trump making sense.

    36. Thepnr says:

      The reason I’m highlighting Ross Thomson in this is that he professes to be a Fishermans Friend.

      Probably not for much longer though.

    37. galamcennalath says:

      robertknight says:

      Vote Tory – Get Shafted

      Not half!

      If Scotland hadn’t increased the number of Tory MPs last year, this Brexit crisis would have taken a dramatically different turn, because we wouldn’t have an über BritNat WM government. We would have had a Labour government relying on SNP MPs.

      But we are where we are and our best hope is ScotRef and Indy. ASAP, as far as I am concerned.

      We cannot let our wee country be flushed down the sewers in a pandemic of Tory political dysentery! There is a better future!
      The presence of Tory MPs in Scotland goes way beyond fishing!

    38. Liz g says:

      Greg @ 6.17
      Heard that Greg,and did ye also catch right at the start of that package…. they will just need to wait a “wee” while longer….?
      Bet that’s Ruthie’s line!

    39. Ronnie murphy says:

      The tone of this item seems a bit incongruous with the wishes of 60 odd per cent of Scots who want to remain in the eu and the CFP.

    40. David R says:

      Interesting to see how 12000 plus jobs in fishing are seen as acceptable losses in comparison to the billions being spent to protect the jobs at HMNB Clyde.

      Guess they need to vote for Labour next time.

    41. Thepnr says:

      @walter scott

      “Does any other country in the world have citizens who hate to see their own country get the best deal possible? This place is just weird.”

      It’s the Tories who would hate to see Scotland “get the best deal possible”. For them their country is the UK and have proven it again by shafting the Fisherman by reneging on promises they made. The best possible deal for Scotland is Independence.

      Only then will Scotland’s voters get the Government they chose and the policies they want every single time.

      If you want to find a place that’s “weird” you should start in the cabinet room of No 10, it’s a lot more weird there than here on Wings.

    42. Socrates MacSporran says:

      thepnr @ 6.22pm

      Aye Ross Thomson “a Fisherman’s Friend” – he’s a big sook to the London Tories.

    43. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Just seen on BBC Shortbread, Ruth Davidson calling for Independence – for Scotland’s fishermen.

      What about the rest of us Ruth?

      If we vote for the Tories, will we get Independence too?

      Thought not.

    44. Thepnr says:

      Job losses will only occur if the Scottish Fishermen cannot sell their fish. They will still be able to catch it and nothing has changed from the status quo in that respect.

      Tariffs and border checks between the UK and EU after Brexit could change all that and fish could left rotting in trucks due to 30 mile queues at the porst or are just too expensive to buy as the EU can import alternatives more cheaply.

      Sounds like scaremongering but who knows =shrugs=

    45. David R says:

      Should’ve added that I can’t see why Scottish tories are not stating that they will vote against the government when Labour will be voting with it.

    46. Macart says:

      They can’t say they weren’t warned, but y’know reasons and union and stuff.

      As for Davidson and the home grown variety Tories? I’d wish them luck in explaining their latest let down, but I doubt I work up the whole sympathy thing when saying it.

    47. yesindyref2 says:

      To steal Ken500’s great line. Please be aware. It is not compulsary to read this comment. Trolls just pass on by. Thanks.

      2+2 = 8

      Here’s a little story I just invented because that’s the sort of thing I do when I’m completely hacked off for some odd non-domestic reason.

      So anyway, there’s this busy popular trade counter with small warehouse at the back, you’ve got 4 people on the counter and 4 in the warehouse taking and storing deliveries. Every month it does a stock-take and shuts on a Friday to carry it out. It’s 4 two people teams doing the different shelves and it takes all day.

      After 20 years one of the workers retires to a Dacha on the Black Sea as he’s quite sick of the UK and no wonder, and his place is taken by an apprentice. Along comes the first month stockcheck and the apprentice takes part in a two person team. She climbs the ladder and sorts out the stock, then down the ladder and hands some to the team-mate who takes it to a table, plonks it down and marks it all off on a list, then picks it up and back to the ladder for the next batch from the apprentice who is waiting patiently with the next load. At the end of the day the boss stays behind for hours to collate the 4 lists.

      Next month on the Thursday as they’re discussing the stocktake, the apprentice being quite cheeky says “2+2 = 8 you know”. The rest fall about laughing, and the apprentice says “I’ll prove it tomorrow, if I’m wrong I buy you all a pint, if I’m right the boss takes half the extra after-tax profit and buys us all a night out”. Well, that got some attention, not least from the boss thinking of the extra profit – and the night out.

      So next day they do the stocktake, the trade counter stays open with the usual 4 serving and getting orders, with 1 taking a list of all stock sold that day. The other 4 form 1 team of 4. One up the ladder and hands down the stock to the 1 on the ground who takes the stock to the table and dumps it down, one stays at the table and checks the stock against the single list, while the 4th is already taking the bext batch from the apprentice on the ladder which is ready just in time. They finish early in the 1 day, and the boss subtracts the stock sold that day from the one single list, a snip at 5 minutes.

      Everyone’s happy and off to the YES bar they go (naturally they’re all Indy supporters), and after the 4th pint the boss says to the apprentice “But that still doesn’t prove that 2+2 = 8, you need to go back to school and learn some maths, how do you make 2+2 = 8, it’s 4, aways has been and aways will be”. Says the cheeky apprentice:

      “Who said anything about maths?”.

    48. Jim says:

      Is it the case that because there is no real Scottish Tory party then May is the leader of MPs elected in Scotland and not Davidson who is just a branch manager in charge of their MSPs, even then with May in ultimate charge of all tories?

      Nicola Sturgeon is Leader of the SNP and therefore in charge of all MSPs and MPs or am I missing something.

    49. Cuilean says:

      Here’s Scots Tory Unionist & favoured TV commentator, Alex Massie perfectly content to scribe that if any UK industry must be sacrificed then Scots fishing industry is the best industry to face the chop.

      Take the bullet for Team GB, Bertie!

    50. Ken500 says:

      Throughout the 70’s and 80’s the NE fishermen were landing record catches. Single trip catches worth £Millions. It was a completion to see which bosts could land the biggest catches. Terry? Taylor and the rest. Ferraris and BMW etc. They used to drink the profits, The decline happened with the decline in stocks.They had to go further and further out. Many fishermen went into the Oil & Gas sector. They hsd transferable skills. For better less dangerous conditions and more time off. To spend with their families. Three years ago a fisher family bought the highest priced property ever in Aberdeen, £3Million.

    51. Dr Jim says:


      Well it’s like this Greg the Scottish government didn’t use their most powerful parliamentary powers in all the world to make the stupid fishermen not vote for Brexit and believe every lie the Tories told them

      Thing is they blame the Scottish government for wanting to stay in the EU, but if Scotland were Independent we’d have a vote on whether to be in the EU or any of the other options available thus enabling the Scottish government to negotiate any deals with whoever, now the fishermen are in a worse position because they don’t even get a say at all with the Tories, and it won’t get better

      The best option for Scotland is vote for Independence then Scotland gets to decide what happens and everybody gets a say, right at this moment nobody in Scotland gets a look in
      we’ve just got to wait till we see what price the Tories get for themselves for selling Scotland

      Those who voted NO in 2014 might want to reflect on that eh

      They don’t seem to get it that the SNP don’t support the UK they support Scotland so why would they not do the best deal for the country they represent
      Having said all that fishermen are greedy wasters and would fish the world dry, they’ve shown that before, so much sympathy will not be coming their way from many

    52. ahundredthidiot says:

      I would’ve preferred the little used or known, but more appropriate, alternative

      Does a fish have a waterproof head.

    53. Thepnr says:

      I’m thinking that this article/interview of Ross Thomson by hard-line blog Brexit Central was meant as praise for one of Ruth’s 12 disciples from the new intake into Westminster.

      Doesn’t look like that to me, I just find it pathetic that someone as inexperienced and lacking of knowledge in politics as he is could be elected in Scotland. It does have it’s funny moments though.

      Scottish Tory Brexiteer Ross Thomson hopes Theresa May will deliver more Thatcher-style hand-baggings in Brussels

      In 2012 he became a councillor almost by accident and found himself on a political escalator that took him to Holyrood and then Westminster.

      And although he admits it has happened quicker than he imagined, Ross Thomson has always wanted to be an MP in “the mother of all parliaments”.

      He admits it “sounds really cheesy” but says being an MP is almost like a calling. “You know if you want to be there and you think you can do something.”

      Thomson was born in Aberdeen and is the leading Brexiteer in the new intake of Scottish Conservatives, now a caucus of 13 MPs after Theresa May’s snap general election last year.

      But the 30-year-old began his political life unexpectedly when a Conservative candidate vying for a seat on Aberdeen City Council was de-selected by the party.

      “Being elected as a councillor was a bit by fluke; I hadn’t been selected just as we were about to get into the campaign and they needed a new candidate.”

      The Q&A session after this is interesting too 🙂

    54. Cuilean says:

      Alex Massie today:

      “As was the case in the 1970s, conceding on fishing allows the UK to take advantage of opportunities elsewhere in industries that are manifestly more important to this country’s prosperity than fishing. That is, in fact, almost every other industry you can think of.”

      You could not make this stuff up!

    55. Ken500 says:

      Throughout the 70’s and 80’s the NE fishermen were landing record catches. Single trip catches worth £Millions. It was a competion to see which bosts could land the biggest catches. Terry? Taylor and the rest. Ferraris and BMW etc. They used to drink the profits, The decline happened with the decline in stocks.They had to go further and further out.

      Many fishermen went into the Oil & Gas sector. They hsd transferable skills. For better less dangerous conditions and more time off. To spend with their families. Three years ago a fisher family bought the highest priced property ever in Aberdeen, £3Million? There is no high unemployment in the NE. It has always been around 2 %.

      The Tories have been taxing the Oil Sector at 40% since Jan 2016. 30% + 10% supplementary. Since 2011 Budget Tories high taxes (when the price of oil had fallen) have led to the decline in the Scottish Oil & Gas sector. They have not got a clue. Losing 120,000 jobs and £Billions.

    56. louis.b.argyll says:

      It’s as plain as day.

      The EU puts it’s consumer’s staple diet front and centre.

      The UK puts it’s m jobs in financial services front and centre.

      To the Tories and Labour, fishing was-
      and still is expendable.

      Scotland’s rural coastal communities are nothing to our southern masters.

      To see their morally corrupt ‘union’ leaders, align with the Tories must be an embarrassment to the average fisherman.

    57. Alba 46 says:

      Blighty Bertie and Roubles Ruth – what a pair of Haddies!!

      You were warned NEVER TRUST A TORRY

    58. Malky says:

      There’s a bear theme emerging here…

    59. Thepnr says:


      Alex Massie another Tory for whom “this country” means the UK and of course a Westminster government will put the whole UK’s interests first. Since though 85% of the UK’s voters are English in reality it means England’s interests will be put first.

      @walter scott

      There’s more evidence of the answers you seek.

      My country is Scotland and the people posting on Wings want Scotland’s interests to be a priority. Under Westminster governments red or blue since the Union was formed that has been proven NOT to be the case.

      Or have you not noticed that Thatcher decimated Scottish industry with her Tory policies and that right now they are doing their best with austerity cuts to decimate our welfare and NHS? If so then you must be blind to the reality of what is going on. Hang around awhile and you might learn something.

    60. Bob Mack says:

      Fishing is expendable. Farming will lose the subsidies that keep it alive. Our produce reputation and availability will decline in the world market .

      How can you vote NO ?

    61. Robert Peffers says:

      @Donald MacKenzie says: 19 March, 2018 at 5:10 pm:

      “They can take their revenge when they get a chance to vote.”

      If there are any of them left with even a hint of a backbone they will take their first round of revenge upon their leadership who advised them on what action to take. To be fair I believe them to be a hard working community who were led astray by a conniving unionist leader. They just might decide the time has come to change that leadership. They cannot deny they were well and truly warned of what he was.

      Their best interests will not be served by any other than a Scottish government that doesn’t have its roots deep in the black heart of Westminster. Many Scots, though, will never forgive them for turning their backs on some of the finest political figures Scotland has ever produced.

    62. Hamish100 says:

      Independence question.

      Do you wish Scotland to be independent Y/N

      If Yes do you wish membership of EU/ EFTA etc

    63. galamcennalath says:

      Bob Mack says

      How can you vote NO ?

      I firmly believe that the majority of NO voters were motivate not by blind BritNattery but were motivated to maintain the status quo because the status quo served their self interest well.

      Now, that status quo no longer exists and will be eroded daily. I therefore also believe most 2014 NOs are ‘up for grabs’ because Indy offers a better future than Brextremist UKnotsoOK.

      We put the information before as many folks as possible and enough will ‘see the light’.

    64. Robert Peffers says:

      @Luigi says: 19 March, 2018 at 5:11 pm:

      “Hook, line and sinker.”

      Aye! Luigi, but we must weight for the net result.

      They can only swim against the tide for so long.

      They were like fish out of water and caught in the current against the flow of tide. Not long before the scales dropped from their eyes.

      I’ll get my coat!

    65. Legerwood says:

      Much of this issue seems to concentrate, understandably perhaps, on the fishermen of the NE Scotland. Is it not the case, however, that the fishermen on the west coast of Scotland, particularly the shellfish cohort, were more Remain leaning and quite worried about losing access to their main markets in Europe post-Brexit.


      If you have been following the Cambridge Analytica story as it has developed over the last few days then I hope you are watching CH4 News just now. Eye popping.

    66. Street Andrew says:

      Fishermen want a cast iron guarantee apparently for what happens after Brexit.

      From the Tory government ?

      Cast Iron ? Guarantee ?

      Why ? So when they drop it overboard they now for certain it will sink ?


    67. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Och, c’mon Hamish100 at 7:30 pm.

      “Independence question.

      Do you wish Scotland to be independent Y/N

      If Yes do you wish membership of EU/ EFTA etc”

      We have to achieve the PRINCIPLE of independence, before we start deciding what kind of relationship we, as an independent nation, have with the rest of the planet.

      Indyref2’s question has to be the same as indyref1’s – “Should Scotland be an independent country?”

      Once extra questions are added into a referendum, confusion can be the result. KISS.

      Our relationship with the world can either be by voting for a manifesto of a party in the first GE in an independent Scotland, or by referendums thereafter, like Switzerland.

    68. Yet again BBC Reporting Scotland allow Ruth Davidson the unchallenged airtime to spout her pre-recorded nonsense about Brexit and waffle over the betrayal of Scots Fisher Folk.
      She is an MSP, the Branch Manager of the Blue Tories in the North Colony. None of the 11 MPs are accountable to her, and Wee Mundy the Invisible is SoS for Scotland.
      So why the fuck are our broadcasters and Dead Tree Scrollers giving her air time and column inches?
      She has much influence on the Brexit Talks as a dead tree trunk.
      She has been found out, yet again.
      Over by October.
      She should resign as a point of principle.
      Aye, two moons lighting up a squadron of pigs flying across the sky in time to a distant band playing believe it if you like.
      What today has shown is that Davidson is a tin pot little Branch manager, of no significance.
      When will Brian Taylor and Co realise that they are interviewing a Nobody, a Never Was, Never Will Be?

    69. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken MacColl says: 19 March, 2018 at 6:01 pm:

      “Is that a red card that I see?”

      Nah! Ken,it’s a Red Herring.

    70. Macart says:

      Bottom line for readers who voted no in 2014, or are reconsidering their vote of 2014.

      If you voted for continuance of the Westminster system of government and the Westminster practice of politics, this is what ‘pooling and sharing’ really meant. What’s yours is mine and what’s mine is my own. (to do with as I see fit)

      You CAN do something about that and we could use the help to make that change.

      Up to you.

    71. Liz g says:

      Charming isn’t it….
      Car’s in Sunderland matter more,and that’s ment to be a good deal.
      What kind of Government doesn’t put Food & Fuel security first?
      Ye canny eat car’s.
      The fishing industry is important!

      Of course there’s some who will still be able to pop over and buy what they need from Mainland Europe if this island runs short.
      But that will no be most of us,we will be stuck on this island wi the bloody Tories,fighting wi the pensioners to be allowed tae pick fruit.

      I really can’t understand why the Fishermen and the Farmers don’t work out that their industry’s matter’s more in an independent Scotland,than they do in this bloody Union.

      But more than that clearly if fishing is important enough to facilitate a UK deal,then is it no obvious that in an independent Scotland it should/could and would be a great deal more than “just” a bargaining chip for the Scottish Government.
      Their industry would ” actually ” matter to the Government!

    72. Davy says:

      This is how it will now go regarding the fishing industry in Scotland :

      First the tory MPs in Scotland will pretend to be outraged at having to remain in the “CFP” for an extra two years and will produce lots of hot air without actually doing anything. (they can’t risk their future seat in the house of lords) can you Bertie)

      Then after spending the next two/three years promising the fishing industry “AGAIN” they will have full control of their own waters after this extra two years in the “CFP”,
      the Tories will sell the fishing industry right down the swanny to gain trade deals that will benefit industries south of the border.

      Now if anyone in the fishing industry disagrees with my analysis — your a fucking IDIOT.

    73. Thepnr says:

      Now it’s plain to see what the “power grab” is all about. The power over fisheries and agriculture is currently devolved.

      When we leave the EU those powers must remain under the control of the Scottish Government and the EU would then have to deal with the Scottish Government.

      Are we to stand by and allow these already devolved powers to be removed so that Westminster can once again make all the important decisions for us? I think now.

      The Scottish Government cannot back down over these UK Framework crap they are talking about that strip powers that are already ours.

      Fisheries and Agriculture and the Environment MUST remain in Scotland’s hands to manage and nurture. Think fracking, wind power, air pollution. We have these powers already and must not give them up.

      If that means voting for Independence I hope you fishermen and farmers are paying attention else you will be screwed once again.

    74. Hamish100 says:


      Re independence question. Current snp is stay in Eu. Surely if we vote independence now in the next year options make sense. Some current No’s may support a Yes vote if we have close links with Europe, some brexiters may now rethink but don’t want in EU. Just debating!

    75. Dr Jim says:

      @Liz 8.02pm

      Don’t worry Liz they’ll import fish from Norway an actual Independent country that decides to do what the people want

      Morrisons only sell Norwegian white fish and English Brook trout anyway but they do land them at Grimsby so that’s good news for R United Kingdom in that part of England

      Scotland? Oh them! who cares

    76. uno mas says:

      Mike Scott was from Aberdeenshire and he “Wished He Was A Fisherman”

      Celtas Cortos are from Galicia and they´ve got the “Fishermans Blues”.

      It´s all very confusing.

    77. Johnny says:

      Davy @ 8:11pm and Thepnr @ 8:13pm both make their points very well (and, I believe, accurately). We need to ensure everyone in Scotland understands that this what staying in this union means and hopefully the SNP will be more vociferously leading the charge in this regard (they have been trying to do so and I get it isn’t easy given the hostile media).

    78. Dr Jim says:

      The UK signed up to the CFP the SNP were against it and were told, not consulted, Scotland had no representatives in negotiations and even when the Scottish government asked to have a representative present the UK government said someone could go but not be allowed to speak as it was a UK matter as they were the member state not Scotland

      So the UK sent some Lord Hee Haw who hadn’t ever been involved in Agg and Fish ever to sign it all away

      It’s the Tories it’s what they do

    79. Capella says:

      Looking forward to tomorrow’s P&J front page.

    80. Robert Peffers says:

      @Jim says: 19 March, 2018 at 6:45 pm:

      “Nicola Sturgeon is Leader of the SNP and therefore in charge of all MSPs and MPs or am I missing something.”

      Yep! The Westminster Government is composed of the Party in Power and the rest are the opposition. But Westminster has also the House of Lords which besides the Government Lords and the Opposition Lords there is the Life Peers and the Hereditary Peers. With also the Law Lords and the CofE Bishops.

      Theresa is only in charge of the Government Lot and each Westminster Party in opposition has its own leader. Not to mention there are independents.

      At Holyrood there is(cough”), only two parties The Government party which is currently the SNP, aided by the Greens, (sometimes),and the Unionist Party that has three Joint leaders who all do what Westminster tells them to do.

      (or am I missing something)?

    81. Rock says:

      Rock (26th June 2016 – “Notes from the madhouse”):

      “The independence referendum questions should then be:

      Should Scotland become independent?

      If Yes,

      Should Scotland continue as a member of the EU, or

      Should Scotland leave the EU?”

      Hamish100 says:
      19 March, 2018 at 7:30 pm

      “Independence question.

      Do you wish Scotland to be independent Y/N

      If Yes do you wish membership of EU/ EFTA etc”

      Rock (13th May 2015 – “Moodievision: The Fall And Fall…”):

      “Ruth Davidson is the most disgusting and nastiest politician in Scotland in my view.”

      Thepnr (16th March “The greasy poll”):

      “Ruth Davidson is the most dishonest politician in the UK and that’s saying something.”

      The usual suspects who attack me, with hindsight, come to the same views as I express with foresight.

    82. heedtracker says:

      Tbf, its not hard to see why those isolated, inbred, simpleton f wit, fishing folk communities, like the Blue Toon and the Broch, were so easily taken in by massed ranks of tory msm professional liars, shameless lying at them and about them.

      Toryboy from another Rule Britannia century Bertie, stinks like an old haddock and there are maybe not that many stinky olde The Graun reading trawlermen.

      Even so,

      Severin puffed up with the thrill of vile sep skewering…

      “If the UK does vote to leave the EU on 23 June, Milne believes the UK should introduce a regional management system in British waters, where local trawlermen, ministers and fisheries expert assess stock levels, and parcel out quotas to suit local circumstances.

      “That’s the way forward for our stocks: manage our own destiny,” Milne said. “Because the fishing will be here long after the oil. It’s how we manage it. That’s the key thing for us.”

      Just kidding about the isolated fisher folks. A lot of the skippers are multi millionaires who send their kids to Fettes and Gordons.

    83. Luigi says:

      Sigh. No doubt, by tomorrow morning, the MSM will have contorted another SNP Bad spin out of this sorry mess.

      Ruth and Bertie will lie low for a few days, as they always do when it hits the fan. The British Nationalists will huddle together, close their eyes and stick fingers in their ears.

      That’s just the way it is, in BREXIT world. 🙁

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @ahundredthidiot says: 19 March, 2018 at 6:54 pm:

      “Does a fish have a waterproof head”.

      I really don’t know, ahundredthidiot, but it does have a watertight arse.

    85. Returnofthemac says:

      Hey ho, when will they ever learn. How many times did we say never, like never trust a tory. Nae point greetin aboot it noo.

    86. Clydebuilt says:

      Were Cambridge Analytica used by the Unionist side in the 2014 Referendum.
      Have they been used in Scottish politics since Indy Ref.

    87. Thepnr says:

      Scrolling! Scrolling! Scrolling by the river 🙂

    88. yesindyref2 says:

      Really what’s needed is an overhaul of the forum software. It needs:

      1). A choice of threaded or flat (this is flat). With threaded, preferably with a collapse option, you can see a troll opener and ignore any replies just by collapsing that sub-thread. You can even ignore a troll reply and its sub-thread. Or if a regular poster comments about wombats landing on the suface of mars you can ignore that one too, though personally I might find it interesting.

      2). Some kind of upvote system, not for kudos or competition, but so you can get some feedback whether anyone actually bothers to read the posting you took some considerable time over, because if not, then we might as well spend our limited time on other activities. Personally I’m getting a bit pissed off posting at all, to empty air and no feedback.

      wordpress might have some plugins, maybe free, maybe cost:

    89. Robert Peffers says:

      @Malky says: 19 March, 2018 at 7:17 pm:

      “There’s a bear theme emerging here.

      Aye! And there’s more than a few bare arses and they are all, ” oot the windae”.

    90. Clootie says:

      …so you followed Bertie like sheep! …hell mend you!

    91. Dr Jim says:

      Maybe after Independence the Scottish government could buy a load of fishing boats and Nationalise the industry, the Labour party would like that they’re into Nationalisation of stuff

      We could employ loads of Polish fellas to run the boats because it’s kinda obvious we can’t trust pretendy Scottish fishermen to run them, the only decisions they seem capable of making are *Naw we waant everything fur oorsels so’s we can be rich and hire Polish fellas fur oorsels*

      That way we can fire people who are dishonest instead of having to put up with the present greedy bunch

      Ach! I know, just musing

    92. Macart says:



      Something, something, something SHOULD RESIGN! 🙄

    93. heedtracker says:

      Skimming over the beeb gimp zone for a wee scope and

      EU fishing deal ‘far from acceptable’ to Scottish industry”

      Imagine beeb gimp gimp rage, if this rolling tory catastrofuck was actually the SNP’s.

    94. Hamish100 says:

      Bit later than normal. Just in? I made no conclusions merely asked questions.

    95. Thepnr says:

      75% of the Scottish fishing industry catch is exported to Europe, in particular our shellfish, the lobsters, crabs and prawns.

      Have you ever seen the small soft back crabs that say the Spaniards or the French would eat? We wouldn’t them of that I’m sure, just not to our taste.

      Here’s a true story, about 15 years ago I was in Lybster in Caithness it was a Sunday and I wasn’t working so had a wonder down to the harbour in the morning.

      I was surprised at all the activity going on as it is a very small harbour and very small boats mainly owned by local families. I got talking to a few of the locals, they fish all week with their creels and bring the catch into the harbour where they keep it in the harbour until the big refrigerated truck arrives on the Sunday to buy the crab and lobster.

      The catch is in trays and after the lorry driver weighs it he pays the fishermen the money straight from his pocket. Once loaded it leaves…

      Heading for Spain! At least back then that was what was happening and i can’t speak for today. What happens after we’re out of the EU will that truck be back?

      Your guess is as good as mine, and as a by the way all this shellfish is caught within the UK 12 mile limit and very few EU boats can fish there anyway, these small local fishermen would never have been better off out of the EU.

      Now unfortunately they can only have the status quo or the possibility of even being worse off. Sad times.

    96. wull2 says:

      When I was young they used to paint on the road, vote XYZ.
      We have moved on since then, we just post now, vote YES

    97. Legerwood says:

      Clydebuilt says:
      19 March, 2018 at 8:48 pm
      Were Cambridge Analytica used by the Unionist side in the 2014 Referendum.
      Have they been used in Scottish politics since Indy Ref.””

      The short answer is No but, important but, that depends on whether you believe the statements made by Mr Nix when he appeared before the Commons Committee. Given what is now emerging I think that ‘No’ could be taken with a large pinch of salt.

      Mr Nix when appearing before the Committee said the company had been in contact with various UK political parties but he also said that since many of the employess in CA were British it would not be fair to ask them to work on such campaigns.

      No, I did not understand that one either and neither did the Committee members. Expect if he appears before the Committee again there will be more questions on that particular issue, and many others.

    98. Morgatron says:

      Lets all club together and hire them a wee rowing boat in queens park and a net from the vendor and they can go fishing for as much baggy minnows as their greedy hearts desire.

    99. Capella says:

      P & J article:
      Our goverments have let us down says Bertie. Plural.

    100. t42 says:

      BREAKING NEWS: It has just been revealed Facebook sells targeted ads!

      Wheres my “whistle-blower” badge and a channel4 deal? lol!

    101. Hamish100 says:

      R the baggy minnows all Brit fish? Cause the scots Brits are not allowed to catch any until,the trawler from Grimsby arrives. Their more British you see and deserve 100% access rights.

      The fish are 100% English. Scotbrits suck it up.

    102. HandandShrimp says:

      In other shock news I have heard that the Pope has attended Mass…and more than once at that.

      So predictable even the Daily Express weather reporter could have forecast it.

    103. Liz g says:

      Ledgerwood @ 9.10
      Are there any SNP MPs on that committee, do ye know?
      Or at least someone else who would ask the questions?

    104. heedtracker says:

      Even twits like Murdo are floundering. And is it Scottish waters and UK seas, UK fish and Scottish not fish?

      Murdo Fraser Retweeted

      Jamie Greene MSP
      Verified account

      6h6 hours ago
      More Jamie Greene MSP Retweeted Aidan Kerr

      Astonishing line taken by the #SNP government today. The Scottish Government’s position is for Brussels to permanently take control of Scottish waters.

    105. Morgatron says:

      Hamish , your quite right , apologies. We can hire a boat from Hyde Park to trawl Queens Pk boating pond for the baggys!

    106. Street Andrew says:

      That picture wasn’t taken in the woods near Salisbury was it Stu?

    107. schrodingers cat says:

      no, we only need, should scotland be an independent country, same as indyref1.

      we didnt add anything such as keeping the queen or currency union or eu membership tacked onto the question last time, why do we need to do so now?

      an indy scotland could automatically join the single market and customs union, efta/eea, nicola already has a mandate for that (62%)

      the white paper needs to be short, a couple of pieces of paper outlining the basic direction, perhaps with a promise of an euref2 sometime in the future once indy

    108. Robert Louis says:

      Quite astonishing to see uber Tories, Douglas Ross and Ruth Davidson openly pretend to be angry that the political party which they are MP’s of, and for which they campaign has shafted the fishermen of Scotland once again. Tory careerist liars.

      Those fishermen who decided to ignore the warnings of the likes of Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and many other that this is EXACTLY what Tories do, have only themselves to blame.

      Oh how the folks of the North East must be regretting not voting for Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson.

      It really is quite clear, the Tories could not give a proverbial flying **** about Scotland.

      Meanwhile, don’t forget the hands around the parliament do on the 23rd.

    109. Ottomanboi says:

      Scottish fisherman betrayed hook, line and sinker by the British state. What does it take for these Scots to grasp the nettle. Running your own country is the only way to get what you want.
      Very troubling for the future of this country. The National party, the party of our nation, should be going ballistic.

    110. Thepnr says:


      Aidan Kerr is a journalist working for STV is he mad?

      Murdo Fraser and Jamie Greene Tory MSP’s are total fruitloops, has Aiden Kerr joined them?

      The Scottish Government’s position is for Holyrood to permanently take control of Scottish waters. Not have them transferred to Westminster as part of the “power grab”.

      Halfwits and liars as are most Scottish Tory elected members I’ve ever known. Journalists at least some seem to have joined them.

    111. heedtracker says:

      Thepnr says:
      19 March, 2018 at 9:38 pm

      Aidan Kerr is a journalist working for STV is he mad?

      Tories, STV liggers, twa cheeks of the airse.

    112. call me dave says:

      Jings! No Trolls yet!

      Just been lurking for a wee while, but reading all.

      Can these Tories make it any worse? …. Probably!

      New post on MUNGUIN’S NEW REPUBLIC

    113. Robert Louis says:

      Thepnr at 907pm.

      You hit the nail on the head. The fishermen have been doubly betrayed. As Scotland is getting forcibly removed from the EU, single market and customs union by England, the fishermen will lose easy access to one of their biggest markets (the EU). Now that the Tories like Ruth Davidson have sold them out, they will also still have the EU controlling their quotas and regulations, but with NO SAY in the matter.

      Scottish fishermen, like Turkeys voting for Christmas, again and again, and again, and again…. For goodness sake, guys, wise up and stop voting TORY.

      It is a double blow. Worse off than what they have now, as they also lose easy European market access.

      Meanwhile, we all look on in amazement at the crocodile tears of Tories like Ruth Davidson, who has a habit at times like these, to refer to HER OWN PARTY, in the third person – almost like it has nothing to do with her. What an utter fraud and charlatan she is.

      Honestly, call the referendum already. FFS.

    114. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 8.49
      If you are talking about your military research for when we are Independent,then you are certainly not posting to thin air.
      I always read your stuff,and have passed on what I learned in conversations more than once.
      EG. Even the “very”existence of the five eye’s program,was news to me,and many I have spoken to as well…

      I don’t often respond but, that’s because I don’t know much about it and am only reading to learn.
      I think it’s important to put that stuff out there,because defence can be particularly important to older voters.

    115. Capella says:

      Chris Cairns – one he prepared earlier:

    116. t42 says:

      That bear between the sticks reminds me of something..

      Tim Howards *cough* unusual performance in goal against Trinidad and Tobago to make sure that USA would NOT qualify to go to Russia.

    117. stewartb says:

      Thepnr @ 9:07 pm

      Regarding the Scottish fishing industry, you point up an important issue: the wild capture industry is not homogeneous but consists of a number of quite distinctive sub-sectors. Many of the bigger operators are in the pelagic fleet and get the media profile, aided by the exposure its leader, the arch-Unionist Bertie Armstrong receives.

      But we should not forget this from 2012! (Source: )

      ‘Seventeen Scottish skippers and a processing firm have received fines totalling almost £1m for their part in the UK’s biggest fraud involving illegal catches of fish.’

      ‘Sentencing the 17 skippers, judge Lord Turnbull said the scam was a “cynical and sophisticated” operation which had the “connivance of a number of different interested parties”.

      (The judge) said the proceedings brought “embarrassment and shame” to them and their families. (Notably) He said: “No-one for example appears to have engaged in this exercise on account of struggling to cope financially with the costs of continued fishing within the quota levels allocated. Indeed, in contrast to some within the fishing industry, those engaged in fishing with the pelagic fleet appear to have been able to make very substantial sums over many years, providing very comfortable livings for themselves and their families.”

      He added: “The motivation was purely financial. Those who were already making a good living saw this as a way more income could be generated and were prepared to participate in deliberate lies and falsehoods.”

      So yes, there is merit in securing a fair, better deal for Scotland’s fishing industry but for all of it – not better just for some at the expense of the inshore fleet and the small communities around Scotland’s coast from which it comes.

      The above tale of wrong-doing (and the Judge’s comment that “those engaged in fishing with the pelagic fleet appear to have been able to make very substantial sums over many years, providing very comfortable livings …”) should be kept in mind when Mr Armstrong is sounding off.

    118. Legerwood says:

      Liz g says:
      19 March, 2018 at 9:24 pm
      Ledgerwood @ 9.10
      Are there any SNP MPs on that committee, do ye know?
      Or at least someone else who would ask the questions?””

      Brendan O’Hara is the SNP MP on the Committee Digital, Culture, Media and Sport.

      I watched most of the session where Mr Nix was being questioned. Most of the members of the Committee asked questions and were pretty good at it too. They seemed to be pretty well prepared and had done their homework. The Chairman was pretty good and has been interviewed on CH4 a couple of times over the last few days.

      Mr Nix in his answers to the questions he was asked gave quite a few answers which in the light of recent developments are going to provide the Committee with lots of ammo when they invite him back.

      It will be interesting to see if he accepts.

      Facebook are also going to receive another invitation from the Committee who have made it clear they want some senior people to come rather than the low level people who appeared first time round.

    119. Fred says:

      Polar Bears don’t shite in the woods! Jist sayin!

    120. heedtracker says:

      Ten months is a long time in the teamGB zone.

      So its another 2 years at least of EU membership for the exultant Brexiteers, with absolutely no say on anything EU at all. At least we’ll get that £350 million a week back from them right?

    121. Shamur says:

      Let me extend an invite to any fisherman or no voters out there who want to join the grassroots Indy movement and help Scotland gain her independence. We need every one of you out there who has changed your mind to join us. Only then will all Scottish Politicians be working for Scotland and not trying to earn brownie points from their masters in London.

    122. galamcennalath says:

      The only people who appear surprised at unfolding events seem to be Ruth Davidson, her dwarfs, and fishing leaders. It can’t be genuine surprise, I don’t buy it. Everyone had to know this was coming it’s just faux shock to try to cover erses.

    123. @Liz g

      Cambridge Analytica Chief Executive Alexander Nix being quizzed by Gov Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee Tuesday 27 February 2018,

      the topic is Fake News

    124. heedtracker says:

      katya adler

      11m11 minutes ago
      Green light for transition deal but – to temper excitement – EU #Brexit mantra is: Nothing is agreed until Everything is agreed.. My thoughts:

      Another BBC imperial masters Brexit “thoughts” which ofcourse do not include anything about the fish renege. Neither did the Channel 4 teatime news tory gimps. Maybe its best all forgotten in teamGB.

      “Now the much-awaited Phase Three can start, in which the EU and UK get down to details about trade and other areas of their future relationship post-Brexit.

      So what magic suddenly turned Brexit negotiators’ frowns and foot-stamps into smiles of acquiescence on Monday?”

      Ooooh, do tell us that tory magic noble and honest BBC mistress?

      She doesn’t, ofcourse. IS there a more deceitful and devious media out there that comes close to the BBC?


    125. JLT says:

      To be honest, it’s been a sickening day. In fact, I’m quietly seething.

      Sickening because we were right; sickening because Brexiteers have finally realised that they were wrong; sickening because no-one wins here; sickening because our fisherman once again foolishly believed a Tory government; sickening because the media won’t condemn Ruth for her latest f***-up; sickening because it’s just another bloody punch in the face for all those who know what is going on; sickening that 30% of the nation refuses to condemn the British State; sickening that a fair percentage of Scotland couldn’t care less…

      …it’s also f****** angering because of all that!

      However, looking at the bigger picture, the DUP must also be frothing in fury at the bit for what they must see as the Tories eventually selling them down the toilet for an open border at some point in the near future. If that should happen, I hope Nicola Sturgeon and Holyrood scream holy bloody murder from the rafters if the Northern Irish get unbelievable preferential treatment with the EU. It’s also going to tear the Tory party further into two opposing ideologies with each new betrayal leading them to internal civil war. It’s also going to cause blind fury in certain parts of England as both sides get shafted as the UK bends over and surrenders itself to the EU on every major point but leaving the UK electorate wondering what they gained from it all.

      Aye …we do live in interesting times. I just hope that at some point, a fair percentage of the Don’t Knows in the other 50% of Scots realise that Scotland now has to go its own way and save itself, rather than be regularly led down the garden path for its daily kicking by Westminster and then being told we deserved it …simply for just being there.

    126. Thepnr says:


      I read quite a bit about this in the last year or so in particular with regard to the East Neuk of Fife, Crail and Anstruther.

      The boats from these harbours are a very big part of the overall shellfish catch that is mostly exported but most boats are under 10m length. Here’s some statistics.

      2.2.4 Size of the Scottish fleet by fishing method

      The ten metre and under fleet is dominated by vessels using creels to fish, namely traps in the form of cages or baskets, typically baited and used to target shellfish species.

      In 2016, 88 per cent of the 1,464 ten metre and under vessels were creel fishing vessels. Of the 569 over ten metre vessels, 64 per cent were shellfish vessels whilst 33 per cent were demersal.

      Only 19 vessels were pelagic, 95 per cent of which were over 40 metres in length. Of the pelagic vessels, 17 are pelagic trawlers and the remaining two are purse seiners. Creel fishing vessels and Nephrops trawlers dominate the over ten metre shellfish group, whilst trawlers dominate the demersal group (Table 2.4, 2.5 and 2.6).

      Big isn’t always beautiful but it is where the money is concerned and they are the ones shouting the loudest. The small vessel owner would undoubtedly in my opinion be better staying in the EU.

      By the way there are less than 5000 “Fishermen” employed in Scotland not 12,000 as has been reported elsewhere and 1000 or so of these are crofters.

      All the figures are here for those that care to find the truth.

    127. One_Scot says:

      JLT, well said.

    128. Liz g says:

      Ledgerwood @ 10.13
      Thanks….. We should mibbi get some answer’s then… (Says she hopefully).
      Scot Finlayson @ 10.36
      Thanks for the link Scot.
      Will be saving that for stupid o’clock tonight!

    129. galamcennalath says:

      JLT says

      the DUP must also be frothing in fury at the bit for what they must see as the Tories eventually selling them down the toilet for an open border at some point in the near future

      … but they don’t seem to be. You would have thought so, but remarkably quiet.

      No legally binding exit deal has been agreed upon yet. Have the DUP had a nod and a wink that it never will be? They are hard Brextremists after all and a crash out would suit them just fine,

      Maybe the DUP will accept a border in the Irish Sea. Maybe the Tories will keep the whole UK in the single market. Maybe some as yet unknown technical solution might be invented. Or maybe bears actually use porta-pottis after all.

      You are right about Scotland wanting to mimic any deal NI might get. But perhaps that is why it won’t happen. The Tories know they will have to fight ScotRef. That is assuming they don’t just close down Holyrood! But assuming they do fight in a referendum, their best chance would be with a very hard Brexit with NO special deal for NI. They will want to argue that the UK single market matters most. IMO they would crash out and have a hard border in NI to say …. “that’s what would happen to iScotland”.

      Desperate times, desperate measures,

    130. Thepnr says:


      Your not posting often nowadays but when you do it’s always good.`Come back more often when you can 🙂

    131. Simon Curran says:

      I see that Alexander Nix is another Old Etonian, don’t know if he was contemporary with some other old boys.

    132. kinters says:

      Keep up the excellent work Rev.

      Only by having a United Front will we defeat our Imperial Masters.

      Some great posts above.

    133. Liz g says:

      JTL @ 10.37
      Very well put..sadly.
      There’s no pleasure in being right….mibbi this time they will wake up though.. eh?

    134. kinters says:

      Tories sell out the DUP and the Scottish Fishing Federation,,,,Two of the Tories closest allies.

      Never Trust A Tory.

    135. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      heedtracker @ 22:36,

      I watched the coverage on CNN instead. The BBC-rare phrases “vassal state” and “rule taker, not rule maker” did make their appearance there!

      Sing after me, fisherfolk (to the tune of “jingle bells”): “vassal state, vassal state, traded all away…”

      CNN did also mention the strange silence that has emanated so far from both the Brexiteers and the DUP.

      Had some IoD type Brexplaining that the Unilever flit from Londinium is “merely moving the brass plate”! =choke= =splutter= But “hooray” quoth him, Nemesis/Nirvana (take your pick) shunted down the road for 20 months.

      They also revealed Barnier’s agreed green lines, wishful-hoping yellow lines (including NI, heh heh) and plain no-deal white lines.

      “Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.”

      Well, yes.

    136. Cubby says:

      How long will it take for some Scots to realise that it is only the Scottish government that will put Scotlands interest first and foremost? UK govs will always prioritise England.

      How long will it take some Scots to realise that only in an independent Scotland will Scotland truly flourish?

      Scots fisherman must be the stupidest of the stupid to keep trusting the Tories.

      British Nationalists lie, deceive and betray Scotland and its citizens when England comes calling.

    137. Brian McHugh says:

      Well said Thepnr… We can’t blame a tiny minority of fishermen for voting in some Tory’s. Their numbers would be lucky to just about swing a council ward somewhere. The whole BBC fake news story about fishermen hating Scotland, the EU and everything that isn’t the beloved UKOK’union is exactly that, manufactured by the BBC.

    138. schrodingers cat says:

      By the way there are less than 5000 “Fishermen” employed in Scotland not 12,000 as has been reported elsewhere and 1000 or so of these are crofters.

      this is undoubtably true but while the economic impact is small, the political impact is big. eg, the fishermen in pittenweem cant afford to buy a house and live in pittenweem anymore so they commute from kirkaldy etc, but when i’ve canvassed these old coastal fishing towns, the issue of fishing invariably comes up on the doorstep even though the vast majority of people I speak to are not involved in the fishing industry in anyway.

      the same thing happens in the traditional farming areas where due to mechanisation, the numbers employed in actual farming is a very small fraction of what it was 50 years ago.

      perhaps this is because these people “come from farming and fishing stock” especially the older folk whose fathers, grandfathers, uncles etc used to work in these industries and they still have an affinty with such issues. so while the economic impact will be limited, the political fallout will be much larger and will be the topic of conversation in pubs in , crail, anstruther, arbroath, macduff and peterhead. Evven though you would be unlikely to find anyone in these pubs who has ever even been at sea

    139. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 19 March, 2018 at 9:32 pm:

      “no, we only need, should scotland be an independent country, same as indyref1.
      we didnt add anything such as keeping the queen or currency union or eu membership tacked onto the question last time, why do we need to do so now?”

      You are correct, schrodingers cat. I did a bit of negotiation in my trade union years and we were trained to do so. Now I may be wrong but I believe the smart way for an independent Scotland to deal with the entire situation is to do the totally unexpected thing.

      Do not go cap in hand, tugging at our forelock and begging for membership in anything. It is our free choice who we choose let them come to us.

      Scotland has, for her population size, massive resources. For starters Scotland is an net exporter of fuel, food/drink, and power. Thus we can feed, heat and fuel our population without outside assistance.

      That doesn’t mean we do not need to import or export. I’m not talking of acting like North Korea in isolation. It means our exports will more than pay for our imports and as an economy we will be in surplus.

      What I mean is let other nations, starting with those in the British Isles, come to us asking for us, to sell them, for example electric power. The electricity already feeds into the present National grid and there is an undersea cable to Northern Ireland. If for example England, (the kingdom), doesn’t pay for the power we cut it off But it doesn’t actually work that way. The Grid connects all the companies supplying the grid with the customers using it and the customers pay the suppliers.

      We wait for the rest of Britain to come to us for electricity. They are all net importers of power. We make them negotiate and sell only to the highest bidder. Same with our oil, gas, food and drink. They want it they pay the best price we can get for it or we sell to those who will pay the best price.

      It won’t take long for NATO to come cap in hand asking us to join for Scottish waters commands the Atlantic Gap probably the most strategic bit of water in Europe. The USA will also require that bit of water to be in friendly hands. They must pay, or trade something, for the privalidge.

      If Europe doesn’t allow (the Kingdom of), Scotland to continue as the legacy member state when the United Kingdom splits then we make them beg too. As Alyn Smith said in the European Parliament, “Scotland didn’t let you down – don’t let Scotland down now.”, and got an unprecedented standing ovation for saying it:-

      So if we do not get to continue as the member state then they must come to us or we go elsewhere. After all we have a choice of who we decide to, partner, with. We have the resources and they need those resources. If they play hardball so do we.

      For example Europe won’t want the Russians to gain another border with Europe nor will they want any other non-European nation there either and there is always the chance of a Nordic Union with the Scandinavians. Or even a Celtic Alliance with a united Ireland and an independent Wales.

      If you go cap in hand they hold the aces. If they come to you – you hold the aces.

      If they don’t come and someone else does then we are getting the best market value we can. It is just like a wee village with a Jennie a’thin store. The residents buy local or it cost them to travel and they lose the convenient wee village store.

    140. schrodingers cat says:

      this is a very high level betrayal of the fishing community, one of the main planks of the tory revival in scotland.

      apart from spitting feathers their first reaction was to claim the snp would give scottish fishing waters away to the eu if we were independent.

      it should be pointed out that an indy scotland in the single market and customs union, like norway, wouldnt be in the cfp. Nicola could block not just the eu fishing fleet from scottish waters, but englands as well.

    141. Bob Mack says:

      Simple explanation really. All of us who support the SNP or independence are robots. Cybernats. Sadly for the Unionists it seems our programming was based on truth whilst theirs was—lies.

    142. heedtracker says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      19 March, 2018 at 11:06 pm

      Strong and Stable Teresa and full on BBC led tory attack propaganda, drops stone dead at Calais.

      Spanish trawler men be must laughing their arses off tonight.

      But on the other hand, there will be a lot of wealthy fish merchants and processors in Aberdeen for example, sleeping soundly tonight too.

    143. ScottieDog says:

      Sensible comments above.
      Scotland will have a considerable trade surplus once independent. Englands trade deficit will increase considerably and consequently so will it’s fiscal deficit (something tories abhor )

      I would also imagine it will be the end of the current tory govt and hopefully a kick start for the English economy away from the ruinous ponzi financial services racket.

    144. jfngw says:

      Who is going to play Mundell in the post indy Last Viceroy of Scotland movie. Beard and glasses, so we need to be careful there!

    145. schrodingers cat says:

      If they play hardball so do we.
      i dont think we will need to, for many of the reasons you pointed out, our strategic location and natural resources etc.

      but many of the issues you raised are what we will face once we are independent, i think we now need to focus on the campaign.

      i listed to a talk by peter bell today and he made a very interesting point about the BT campaign. (a summary) they had very little to say but at every opportunity the reiterated their very simple mantra, ie, you’ll not get into euro, you cant use the £, what’s your plan B etc. and they all sung from the same song sheet. The yes side did not have such a short and simple mantra, diversity is a strength for our grass roots organisation but it can be a weakness during a campaign as too many different positions can confuse the voters.

      to that end, i think the white paper for indyref2 should be only a few lines on one side of a piece of paper.

      1. we launch a £ scots

      2. we will keep the queen until the people of an independent scotland decides otherwise at a time of their choosing

      3. We will automatically join efta immediately after voting yes.

      I’m not sure we need to say anything else

    146. jfngw says:

      @schrodingers cat

      The trouble is keeping the simple message on track, there are too many that want to have detailed policies, which are the province of the post indy elected government, not a referendum campaign. These are the ones that will get MSM airtime to confuse the message.

    147. Liz g says:

      Schrödinger’s cat @ 11.46
      Agree about keepin it simple, but I think we need a word or two about Defense?

    148. heedtracker says:

      What has the EU ever done for, Ireland’s fishing industry? A lot. Doubt the Irish EU Fishing industry minister is a Farage style zoomer though

      Its not fair to ask why England fell for Farage and his beeb gimp charlatans like David Dimbelby, is it.

      In the last ever BBC EU election campaign run up in teamGB, beeb gimp of the millennium Jim Naughty was sliming all over Scotland for UKIP. When Naughty actually did get Coburn elected, he was hysterical with excitement. Not just Sir Naughty but its the beeb r4 gimp network I listen to and he was all over UKIP in Scotland like a rash.

      Fair enough Naughty and his fellow beeb gimps were trying to break in to the pre Scots indyref1 SNP vote, Coburn probably put Scotland off UKIPers for life but our EU citizenship has been ripped up under our noses, EU is stronger than ever.

    149. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      I was just pointing out the facts about the number who were employed as Fishermen according to the statistics.

      I do realise of course how big an important political issue this is and it it is much much bigger than it’s economic impact. We saw that in the 2017 GE when an additional 12 Tories got elected in Fishing and Farming areas. They used that political message.

      I’m in Angus where we had Mike Weir SNP as our MP since 2001 and before him Andrew Welsh SNP, now we have a young wealthy farmers daughter Kirstene Hair representing the Tories.

      So what happened?

      It can only be that their message was stronger than ours, in particular in the areas that they won, rural and fishing. Now we have to fight back with the message that they have been let down by those they elected in the belief they would stand up for them. They have failed for the fishermen and it’s the farmers next. We can be absolutely certain of that.

      It’s all about the message across and since 2015 we have gone downhill in getting that message out there. We’ve been outgunned again by the media and loadsymoney poltical parties.

      The message we had was only so strong in 2015 GE because of the Indy referendum. Memories were fresh and people could remember the passion, the British Nationalist media have worked hard since then to eradicate that message and all that is left is blogs like Wings and US grassroots who are now the most important.

      It’s our job to get the Independence message across as I’m sure you’d agree as no one else will do it for us. We’re all we’ve got.

    150. Ken500 says:

      In the NE the Tories got in because the turnout was low. 6,000 less than the previous GE. When turnout was notably higher (in 1915). Higher than average?

      Alex Salmond lost by 1000+. The seat was targeted by the Tories. The LimDems switched to Tory. The seat previously (30 years) with slightly different boundaries was LibDem. Malcolm Bruce (Sir) who did noting for the area. There is low Labour presence in the constituency. Quite rural. People would vote LibDem to keep the Tories out. Alex Salmond was previous Banff & Buchan? Up,the coast.

      People did not turn out to vote. LibDems switched to Tory. The Tories won because they was a lower turnout. It was heavy rain all day. It was apathy, raining or people were fed up of elections? The Tories did gain from switch tactical voting but not much overall support. The LibDem bite was down.

      There are reports the NE is 80% of the UK sea fishing sector. That leaves 20%. How could EU boats be taking 60% of the catch. There is a 12 mile EU limit exclusive to home ports. Other boats are not allowed to land fish at the port. Inshore fishing and salmon farms (high export value) ) are on the West Coast. 50% of fish consumed in the UK Is imported from Norway etc.

      It seems strange that boats would come from Spain and France to fish. Quotas. Long journeys and fuel cost etc. When the Mediterranean has plenty of fish and is nearer. Most of the fish in Spanish markets are different species from elsewhere. Varieties not sold in Scotland. Although Scottish fish, langoustines go to EU markets for high prices. Premiun products. Prawns in Scotland with less quality come from Thailand.

    151. schrodingers cat says:

      jfngw says:

      The trouble is keeping the simple message on track, there are too many that want to have detailed policies, which are the province of the post indy elected government, not a referendum campaign. These are the ones that will get MSM airtime to confuse the message.
      you are right, but i think that ric/rise/ssp has shot it’s bolt and we can only do well that which is in our power. the bbc is a fact we will just have to deal with, we dont have the time or the ability to neutralise it before indyref2

      liz, defense, sure.
      4. The Scottish government will establish a scottish defense force
      thepnr says
      Kirstene Hair………. ugh

      It’s our job to get the Independence message across as I’m sure you’d agree as no one else will do it for us. We’re all we’ve got.
      agreed, although the britnats are adept at shooting themselves it the foot as well

    152. schrodingers cat says:

      i agree, the loss of snp mps was due to tactical voting by the britnats and the low turnout of snp voters. it wasnt due to a large scale switching by voters from the snp.

      as for the types of fish… i couldnt say, i hate the stuff, i dont like food that looks at me while im eating it 🙂

    153. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 23:46,

      I fully agree about your general principles, but can’t agree about the details, not least your hoary old EFTA chestnut. That’s just yet another of the a-la-carte-indy things we must firmly avoid, along with monarchy etc., etc. Don’t create any unnecessary cracks that our opponents can exploit in their usual divide-and-conquer negative style.

      Also, why try to restrict our new sovereign Government before it has even begun?

      Any provisional government of a newly-declared indy Scotland will be duty-bound to explore all potential ways forward, as RP in effect suggests. How could they possibly not do so? To artificially restrict future options in advance only invites dissent on our side.

      Instead make the guiding principle simply to fully explore what is available, and go for the best possible option that’s on the table. What’s not to like?

      Settle on a proposal that is either accepted by acclaim or (if really necessary supposing we’re not heartily sick of them all by then) followed by a confirmatory referendum.

      Keep our options open. Go for the best available. Hard to attack.

    154. schrodingers cat says:

      um…… it too early to point out the troll free nature of tonights thread?

    155. Thepnr says:

      @schrodingers cat

      It’s only troll free because they’re staying clear tonight as they might get a roasting since the Indy side is on fire and not in the mood to put up with their shite after another Tory betrayal!

    156. Big Phil says:

      schrodingers cat.
      Maybe its because nobody answered them, or ‘Took their bait’.
      Excellent thread tonight .

    157. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 12.21
      Do you really think that a vague….the best possible deal/arrangement will be good enough though?
      It might just be me, but I am sick to the back teeth of that phrase….mibbi we should put our thinking cap’s on for something new and fresh?

    158. Chick McGregor says:

      Amongst others, ever since Cameron first voiced his desire to hold an EU referendum, I have tried to warn Scottish farmers and fishermen, that they would be the first sacrifices on the altar of Brexit in an attempt to preserve the obscene regional wealth gap which exists in the UK. The SE comes before all else.

      The relative wealth gap between the SE and other regions in the UK is massively greater than the largest regional wealth gaps in any other EU country.

      It is the least egalitarian, in terms of wealth distribution, of any country in Western Europe.

      In mitigation, in the event that there are no checks and balances which take social fairness into account, then that may well be the expected ultimate outcome for a democracy. That is, that the greed motivated will, over time, relocate to a particular region and establish a regional tyranny.

      However, I do not hold with the idea of chastising the gullible and deceived in our society like the fishermen or farmers, rather I would save my ire for those who knowingly deceived them.

      Select the correct targets peeps.

    159. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      heedtracker @ 23:39,

      Know what you mean about the fish processors. Who weren’t ever so gung-ho as the dimwit fatcat skippers anyway.

      But even with a helpful kick, the proverbial can only rolls down the road a short way, then it still gets stomped same as before. Time enough to have trade deals set up with Belarus and Burkina Faso (as WGD so amusingly puts it)…?

    160. geeo says:

      This case makes you realise just how much UKIP were over promoted into something they just never were.

    161. schrodingers cat says:

      why try to restrict our new sovereign Government before it has even begun?

      whose’s trying to restrict it? and how?

      btw, im no fan of the queen or nato, but for the purposes of the campaign i think they are the correct policies.

      by supporting this in indyref2 by no means restricts me or any future scottish government from campaigning and changing that at a future date.

      the point about efta/eea is that immediate membership would protect scotlands place in the single market and ensures free movement of eu citizens, we cant afford to be outside the SM for any great length of time. since norway and iceland have already said we can join, it is something we can offer in indyref2.

      it doesnt preclude an indy scotland rejoining the eu at a later date. rejoining the eu might not be an immediate process, and tying it to indyref2 leaves us open to attack by the britnats that the eu will refuse, we will need to join a long cue, spain will refuse etc. tying indyref2 to eu membership is exactly the sort of unnecessary cracks that our opponents can exploit in their usual divide-and-conquer negative style.

    162. mike cassidy says:


      We all knew the Tories would sell out the fishing industry.

      Just like we all knew there would eventually be a story about a driverless car knocking down and killing a pedestrian.

      But how many of us predicted this!

      Boris urging countries to join the EU!

    163. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 00:37,

      That’s one lasting inheritance of Brexit, more’s the pity, it has thoroughly tarnished all modes of reasonable expression. Every tangible hope has been cheapened to the point of nullity by a tidal deluge of lies and distortions.

      But we have to start somewhere. And where better to start than where virtually everyone would realistically expect one to start from anyway?

      However best you can manage to encode it for public consumption.

      Oh, but having said that, I agree that we do need to have something convincing on the fundamentals: a plausible own currency proposal, at least an outline of a believable defence proposal, and an estimated cost of transition.

    164. geeo says:

      On the fishermen..they take misguided to a new level.

      Lets go back to 2014.

      “The ONLY way to REMAIN IN the EU is to Vote No” said Ruth Davidson.

      Vote Yes and Scotland is 100% out the EU, they all claimed.

      Yet, Fishermen wanting OUT the CFP/EU, Voted No ..go figure huh ?

      Fast forward to today…

      Fishermen have just straightened up after taking a collective big ben up their poopdecks, and have worked out they have been utterly shafted.

      Do they..

      A. Get mad and back Scottish Independence, because that still means OUT the EU…which is what they want…remember ?

      B. They blame the SNP SG and claim they will not vote Yes because the SNP will TRY to give the powers back to the EU again as soon as possible.

      As i said…misguided. (trying hard not to say fucking dumb).

    165. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers cat @12.45
      But would efta/eea be happy to accept a country that would be voting to leave it quite soon?

    166. Thepnr says:

      @Chick McGregor

      I’m with you all the way on that.

      There are so many small farmers and fishermen who without the EU will be doomed whether that is because they no longer receive EU subsidies or no longer have a market for their goods doesn’t matter.

      They will not proper and will likely fail, does anyone seriously believe that Westminster will make them a priority?

      Absolutely no chance while they have their eyes on Banking and Insurance for the City of London, that’s where their priorities lie.

      I want none of our people to suffer economic hardship or to go out of business, I just want them to believe that an Independent Scotland is in as much of their interests as it is in mine.

      I’ve done enough reading to know that it is in my interest but that is not why I’m voting YES I’m voting YES in their interests too and the many others particularly the poorest, homeless and disabled who are being targeted by this Tory government.

      We can do better as an Independent country!

      Those ruling us from Westminster are not Good Samaritans and would cross the road in order to avoid their responsibilities as human beings. We need no help from them in how to live our lives.

    167. Tam the Bam. says:

      Schrodingers Cat …. 12-45am

      The current mandate for a second Indyref was secured by The Scottish Government after a key policy of the SNP Manifesto i.e. ” …in the event of a material change in circumstances..” ( in relation to membership of the EU) was enacted.

      The link to EU membership therefore is non-negotiable if the pursuit of a Section 30 Order is to prove successful.

    168. Thepnr says:

      @mike cassidy

      FFS you’d think that was a joke, couldn’t read more than two paragraphs. Crass.

    169. Molly says:


      Perhaps the DUP are biding their time to see who else gets a deal and what kind of deal because what you never hear mentioned is the little issue of Gibraltar.

      It’ll be interesting to see how their hard/ soft border is resolved with the Spanish Govt given their historical views and as members of the EU?

    170. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 00:45,

      Well, you so obviously are, by espousing EFTA-only as a campaign plank. Another entirely superfluous a-la-carte one.

      Not by saying, as one reasonably can, “EFTA is a likely realistic backstop, but full EU membership is still a live option to be explored”.

      However you spin it, you clearly want to avoid making such an ongoing option available for consideration, despite the seemingly overlooked fact that it’s precisely what the majority of people of Scotland (excluding EU residents and young people) actually voted for. And what the current mandate for IR2 is fundamentally based upon!

      Just at the very tipping point, as we can see today, when the remaining residual Brexit lies are disintegrating under the weight of their own self-contradictions!

    171. schrodingers cat says:


      we voted to stay in the eu but are forced out against the will of the people. also, we may have already left by the time we hold indyref2

      efta membership isnt eu membership and norway and iceland have already agreed we can join. we dont need the 27 eu countries agreement to join efta

      the uk voted to leave the eu, the only reason we are not staying in the single market and CU (efta/eea) is because the uk has stated it is leaving them too. not because the eu wont allow the uk to stay

      bear in mind i’m talking about indyref2 campaign tactics, not the reality we would face after we vote yes.

      i propose we tie indyref2 to efta membership because we can prove to the electorate that this is within our powers to deliver. if we tie indyref2 to eu membership, the bbc will simply ridicule this proposal, as they did last time. they won remember. why make the same mistake twice?

    172. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Aye cheers, at least there’s one! Been looking at commonspace’s defence paper, presuming this is the one in their new book for an independent Scotland:

      For what it is it’s fine, but not something to present to the voter. I think the voter wants to know just can we afford to defend ourselves, and what could we have to do that. I’d say something like a half page, along the lines of

      Depending on the policies of the future Scottish Government, the annual budget could be anywhere between £1.5 billion a year to £3.2 bn which would represent the NATO target of 2% of GDP, though membership of NATO is a political decision. Scotland would be entitled to a one-twelfth share of the UK defence assets, but this could be in terms of physical assets, cash, or less share of debt.

      A full asset share should sensibly give us 16 operational air defence Typhoons with some ground combat capability, plus 6 which have been taken out of service for spares. This would take us to 2040, by which time we would be replacing them with our own choice. The Typhoon is expensive to run but very good.

      For the navy we would be entitled to 4 or 5 Type 23 frigates in monetary terms, as the UK is to replace most with the Type 26 we might have to wait 2 or 3 years to get all of them. There would be 3 Merlin helicopters to go with them, capable of anti-submarine warfare (ASW). Also 2 or 3 Offshore Patrol Vessels and 3 inshore ones. This is in overall money terms, actual ships would be subject to negotiation. All plus some auxiliaries like transports, trainers, tenders, helicopters, amphibious craft etc.

      Army would be X Y for starters, with Z Soldiers, either transferring or recruited and trained.

      If no assets were inherited, provision would be made to buy supersonic jets capable of Mach 2 for air defence, such as the Gripen C and a few D two-seaters for training. Likely numbers total 32 for 2 12 jet operational squadrons plus a half squadron for training and reserve. The Gripen is a lot cheaper to run. Future upgrade could be to the E variant towards the end of the 2020s. For a navy we would then require 4 middle cost modular frigates capabale of ASW and possibly air defence, 4 OPVs and 4 small fast inshore patrol vessels such as the Norwegian Skjold, capable of anti-ship warfare and anti-smuggling duties.

      Reason I don’t do army is there are many who can do that, including Keith Brown an ex-marine, for some reason there isn’t the same for navy and air force. I’ve barely looked at army kit or numbers.

      I might work this up and improve it a bit for a repost sometime.

    173. yesindyref2 says:

      Did that off the top of my heed, one more pargraph needs the actual percentages worked on.

      Once established the defence budget would be roughly 33% new equpiment, 33% personnel costs, and 33% logistics and infrastructure. To start with as the military built up with less personnel etc, it could be 60% new equipment, 20% personnel costs and 20% overheads, if no assets were inherited.

      @Liz g – you’re welcome to post this so far as a work in progress, without acknowledgement – here if I’m not around or elsewhere, but I’ll check back over it first I guess. I’d like to compact it a bit to keep cat happy!

    174. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 19 March, 2018 at 11:46 pm:

      I’m going to have to disagree with you on a couple of points, but they are all good points:

      “1. we launch a £ scots.

      We do not need to launch the Pound Scots – we already have it.
      The Scottish bank notes are distinctively Scottish and, what is more, when we declare ourselves independent of the English pound the Bank of England presently holds the security for out Scottish Bank notes. Thing is it is Scotland’s not either England’s not the UKs.

      For every Scottish bank note printed whichever Scottish bank printed it must lodge a special high denomination bank note with the Bank of England to that value. These are stored in a Scottish Banks account. If we split from England those bank notes are redeemable. They come back to Scotland and, BTW: Scotland owns a negotiable part of the Bank of England.

      It was nationalised in 1946 by the United Kingdom government and thus part of the BofE belongs to the only partner kingdom in the United Kingdom with England.

      In any case the pound is an international trading currency and anyone can buy it and use it. It is traded on the open market like any other community. All trading currencies have their values quoted on the market and their exchange rates against each other. Only thing is Scotland could decide or not decide to tie the pound Scots to the pound England but would probably be foolish to do so for the pound English will fall like a stone and the Pound Scots will soar like an eagle.

      What we will need to do, is set up a Central Bank and that is actually in hand by the SG right now. This will become exactly what the BofE is to Westminster.

      2. we will keep the queen until the people of an independent Scotland decides otherwise at a time of their choosing.”

      Aye! We will keep the Queen but keep her as she is under Scots law – Queen of Scots and not Queen of Scotland – that is she will not be legally sovereign under Scots law. As with everything else – under our terms – not under theirs.

      Just why do you think the idea of an independent Scotland puts the fear of death into Westminster? It won’t just be face they will lose.

      “3. We will automatically join efta immediately after voting yes.”

      Why join EFTA unless we don’t get to remain as the legacy former United Kingdom member – we have been EU citizens since the EU began as such and the EU has no rules, laws or legal mechanisms to throw out either citizens or member states. That is why Theresa had to put in a formal Written request to leave before the EU would accept it.

      The EU parliament only needs to state that the United Kingdom is exactly that and it has always been. A two member Union of Kingdoms and only one of them voted to leave. The united Kingdom is neither a country nor is it a four country union. The Treaty of union is an agreement between only two kingdoms when one leaves there is no united Kingdom.

      If the EU wants us it only needs to offer us to be the continuing legacy member of the two kingdom UK and, with suitable negotiated terms, we do not leave the EU but renegotiate terms.

      If they do not offer us the legacy membership we take ourselves elsewhere and the EU loses out big time. We, not they, hold the aces.

      Put it this way – if they insist we must re-join as new members we tell them to sling their hooks. For then we have nothing to lose that they haven’t taken away already, including the free market because we will have lost it already by being thrown out against our will.

      We have nothing to lose but the EU does including fishing rights and access to our markets not to mention a much weaker defence as there will be a great big strategic hole that used to be an EU border.

      Believe it or not but Scotland has the longest shoreline in Europe and remember this – England, Wales and N.I. will be outside the common EU borders.

      Look at that from the EU’s viewpoint – if Scotland was invaded by a non-EU country that enemy would have a foothold on the EUs doorstep and that enemy could be Trump’s USA with his special relationship with Theresa’s Little England.

      Matter of fact who has more motive to declare war on Scotland than the newly independent Kingdom of England that thinks it has owned Scotland for over 300 years.

      An independent Scotland will be in a very, very strong negotiating position. Many a nation will come to court Bella Caledonia, if for no other reason than her sheer outstanding beauty.

    175. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 01:19,

      I am entirely ignorant of such matters, but as an ordinary member of joe public your sketch looks very plausible to me and just the kind of thing we need.

      As for army, might there be some possible political capital from the prospect of having some traditional Scots regiments back again…?

    176. schrodingers cat says:

      The link to EU membership therefore is non-negotiable if the pursuit of a Section 30 Order is to prove successful.

      disagree, im not sure a section 30 will be granted either way nor it is necessary, desirable perhaps.

      the SG is currently pursuing SM and CU for scotland, efta/eea membership ensures it and protects businesses in scotland. it is entirely in line with the manifesto commitment and the 62% who voted remain. efta/eea membership by its very definition is part of eu membership, eg, you cant be an eu member if you are not in the SM and CU,

      EU membership is a goal, a desire to be pursued once indy, it is the reason we are voting for our independence. but we cant tie it to the indyref2 because it isnt in our power to guarentee it,

      1. the eu itself has said we will need to join as a new member under article 49. this could take years, we cant afford to be outside the SM and CU during this period

      2. Andrew marr says spain will oppose our membership 🙂

      3. Andrew neil says we will need to join a long cue behind turkey, who have been waiting 10 years now 🙂

      4. the bbc says the eu wont let us in. 🙂

      5. 62% voted for an eu type membership which no longer exit, ie a rebate and 4 opt outs. any new eu membership arrangement finally agreed between an indy scotland and the eu would need to be put to a referendum in an indy scotland.

    177. yesindyref2 says:

      Once established the defence budget would be roughly 33% new equpiment, 33% personnel costs, and 33% bases, infrastructure, R&D and logistics. To start with as the military built up with less personnel etc, it could be 50% new equipment, 25% personnel costs and 25% overheads, if no assets were inherited.

      Anyone want to post a short army paragraph, welcome!

    178. schrodingers cat says:

      rp, re the £ scots and the queen, yup, no arguements from me

      re staying joining or rejoining. the eu has already said we woulkd need to rejoin as a new state via article 49. bear in mind, we might have already left by the time we hold indyref2.
      thing is, this looks more like a politically expedient position taken by the eu wrt a country seeking independence. I’m not sure that they would maintain this tact after we voted yes though. as you point out, scotland is a resource rich country that i believe the eu would desparately want scotland to join them.

      sorry, but it keeps coming back to the issue of what happens DURING the campaign as opposed to what happens AFTER we vote yes. they may not be the same.

      no one seriously believes that if we had voted yes in indyref1 that the day after, westminster would not be begging us for a currency union and that the eu would not be begging us to join them, but during the campaign BT wheeled out enough people to say no to a currency union and no to the eu. that is why they won. (a major reason anyways)

    179. Meg merrilees says:

      Molly re Gibraltar

      I heard this morning that it seems Gibraltar will be exempt from the transition period and they’re pretty furious about that. Spain was being mentioned as holding the possibility of a veto but the remaining 27 countries were pressuring Spain not to veto.

      Gibraltar not very happy at being played for fools.

    180. schrodingers cat says:

      the highland regiments can be reformed but the highland division should be modelled on the 6DLB (Force Action Rapide)

      AMX 10 tank hunters for the cavalry, VAB APC’s and VBL jeeps for the infantry and engineers. 5.56 nato cartridge rounds

    181. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes, that’s a problem with the army, but Hammond / Fallon with base and regiment cuts really did us a bit of a favour as it’ll be done and dusted and save the political fallout of the iScotland Government having to do the same thing to save money. They’re even doing up our naval base for us with better infrastructure, very kind!

      I’ll cut and paste that into my work in progress for a starter.

    182. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @1.33
      You/we might also need to remind everyone that Westminster sells arms to anyone …
      Although we may insist they tender.

    183. Liz g says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 2.06
      Did you catch my reply to you from this morning on the other thread Meg?

    184. schrodingers cat says:

      the 6dlb was the first aeromobile division, ie, every piece of equipment can be loaded into a c120 transal or hercules

      eg the amx 10 has a 155mm cannon, comparable with a main battle tank (challenger, abrams t84 etc) but is wheeled, not tracked, same fire power but much faster and lighter. a division only moves as fast as its slowest vehicules.

    185. yesindyref2 says:

      Nice. Yes, I could see that, plus a home reserve doubling as civil emergency etc. Total number maybe between 8,000 to 15,000, or I just don’t mention numbers at all to keep it short though it will be a page not a half page as I have to include the marines and the desirability of a suitable amphib and maybe air support craft – perhaps 20,000 tones or so, 200 metres long. Mmm, almost wish I hadn’t started it was going to be an early night for a change.

    186. yesindyref2 says:

      Latest version!

      Depending on the policies of the future Scottish Government, the annual budget would be between £1.5 billion a year to £3.2 billion which represents the NATO 2024 target of 2% of GDP, though NATO membership is a political decision. Scotland is entitled to a one-twelfth share of UK defence assets, this could be in terms of actual assets, cash, or less share of debt.

      The rUK should want to make sure we can perform the current QRA North air interception role, a full asset share should sensibly give us 16 air defence Typhoons with some ground combat capability, plus 6 already out of service for spares. Their out of service date is 2040, by which time we would replace them with our own choice. The Typhoon is expensive to run but extremely effective.

      For the navy we are entitled to 4 or 5 Type 23 frigates in money terms, as the UK is to replace most with the Type 26 we might have to wait 2 or 3 years to get all of them. There would be 3 to 4 Merlin helicopters to go with them, very capable for anti-submarine warfare (ASW). Also 2 or 3 Offshore Patrol Vessels and 3 inshore ones. Actual ships subject to negotiations. All plus auxiliaries such as transports, trainers, tenders, other helicopters, amphibious craft, share of missile stocks and spares etc.

      The Army composition is much more dependent on our foreign policy needs, but the highland regiments can be reformed and the highland division could be modelled on the French 6DLB (Force Action Rapide), either transferred if they wish, or recruited. AMX 10 tank hunters for the cavalry, VAB APC’s and VBL jeeps for the infantry and engineers. 5.56 nato cartridge rounds as an example, though depends on any inherited assets to start with.

      If no assets are inherited, we would buy supersonic jets for air defence, such as the Saab Gripen C, and D two-seaters for training, 32 in total for two 12 jet operational squadrons plus 8 for training and reserve. The Gripen is a lot cheaper than the Typhoon and less than half the cost to run, but also takes the Meteor air to air missile with a 100 mile range. Future upgrade could be the E variant at the end of the 2020s.

      For navy we would need 4 middle cost modular frigates capable of ASW and/or air defence, 4 OPVs and 4 small fast inshore patrol vessels such as the Norwegian Skjold, capable of anti-ship warfare and anti-smuggling duties. Marines are very important and would be retained, and a large deck amphibious shop with air support capability would be highly desirable.

      Some of this kit might be going cheap as other countries replace, e.g. Sweden from the Gripen C/D to the E/F.

      Once established the defence budget would be spent roughly 33% on new equpiment and upgrades, 33% personnel costs, and 33% bases, infrastructure, R&D and logistics. If no or limited assets were inherited, it could be 50% new equipment, 25% personnel costs and 25% overheads as the military build up.

    187. Liz g says:

      Either Shrodingers cat or yesindyref2
      Why on earth would we need a Hercules?

    188. mr thms says:

      A typical BBC Scotland article about Scotland’s oil industry with the gloomy headline and holding back the good news till the end..

      “The Business Outlook expects a big increase in investment during 2018 totalling more than for the last three years combined.

      Between 12 and 16 oil and gas developments are expected to be given the go ahead this year which would unlock about £5bn.

      Production is predicted to increase by 5% making it 20% higher than five years ago.

      And after a huge reduction in headcount, more than half of companies in the sector are expecting employee numbers to rise.”

    189. schrodingers cat says:


      the french marines division was completely remodeled on the 6dlb in 1991.
      amx 10’s, vabs and vlb’s are all amphibious

      c120 transals, hercules, galaxys and star lifters are the work horses of all military forces, they are used to transport men (parachutist) and equipment and supplies. they are used extensively in relief operations around the world

    190. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      We need transports, even if just to move our people and stuff around to say Norway for a combined exercise. But rather than that defence paper’s “fleet of transports” which would raise eyebrows over cost to any punter in the street, perhaps 2 or 3 of our own, and join if appropriate the likes of the Multinational MRTT fleet:

      That paper also has this: “The Scottish Air Force would have a number of air defence squadrons which would operate multi-role fast jet aircraft.”

      Good grief, a number of squadrons, how many, 4, 5? If that was a supersonic fighter swing-role jet it would take the whole defence budget, and even the person in the street would know that. Or do they propose the Hawk as another one suggested, 50 or 60 of the subsonic Hawk which the Russians for example could dispatch with 1 single squadron of Sukhois from 50 miles away with ground attack missiles to spare to bomb Edinburgh flat!

      I think a defence leaflet or section has to be short and sexy, but intrinsically realistic – and able to be costed.

    191. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ll take that back out again until I can make it right 🙂

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      Ah! Just noticed that multinational MRTT includes Norway which isn’t an EU member, so that answers that question I had. Yes, we should be able to join in, depending on the timing for adding to the existing contract.

    193. Liz g says:

      Ok Gents “Relief operations is all I needed to hear”
      Except for Trident gone

    194. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g
      Even the OPVs can be used for rescue, there was an exercise recently, and the frigates could with their general purpose mission bay. Trident gone in 10 years max 🙂

    195. schrodingers cat says:

      aeromobile divisions like the 6dlb and the 82 are also parachutist

      compare the US 82 and 101 divisions, both parachute capable, but the 101 has very little equipment, like 2 para, the 82 is like the 6dlb parachutists but all of their equipment by definition needs to be able to be transported by air.

      you dont need separate para regiments

    196. schrodingers cat says:

      Trident gone in 10 years max ?

      or alternatively, if they dont collect in 3 weeks after a yes vote, we stick them on ebay 🙂

    197. Liz g says:

      A bit OT… but I’ve been asked more than once and it’s my last question promise!
      How quick can they be disarmed and the war heads banned from crossing into Scotland
      Surely that won’t take 10 years ?

    198. yesindyref2 says:

      Trident does give us leverage in negotiations 😎

    199. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorting bookmarks, checked out globaltimes found this from China, substance of article not exactly unexpected:

      “Western sanctions boost support for Putin”

    200. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 & Schrödinger’s Cat
      Well you will have to be quick wi ebay
      Me and Nana have an arrangement aboot Trident.
      We are escorting it over the border and it defiantly won’t take us ten year’s…. LOL

    201. yesindyref2 says:

      @Liz g

    202. heedtracker says:

      Graun’s morning bleh for spectacular tory Brexit doesn’t mean Brexit flop. Our imperial masters are not clowns and far are better at running Scotland than…

      Meanwhile Jacob Rees-Mogg, chair of the European Research Group, is planning to lead a protest of Brexit supporting MPs on Wednesday, who will board a boat and throw fish out as they pass by parliament. He said the aim of the action, which would involve a limited number of MPs because of a lack space, was to show their dissatisfaction about the fisheries element of the transition agreement.

      Rees-Mogg called the transition agreement unsatisfactory and said it was “hard to see what points the government has won”.

    203. Robert Louis says:

      So the Scottish fishermen have been sold out by English Tories yet again. Whilst the likes of Ruth Davidson and douglas Ross (the world’s most useless lying Tory politicians) publicly weep crocodile tears, it is absolutely clear London could not give a *** about what the people of Scotland think or want.

      But it is even worse, because the Tory Liars currently running roughshod over the people of Scotland are hell bent on finishing the destruction of Scottish industry, started by that evil piece of filth, Thatcher.

      I know the Scot gov have been trying very hard, but I think they need to start upping the game on this. Scotland, its people and industry did not vote to leave the EU, they still do not want to leave the EU, yet for some bizarre reason, we are sitting watching as England forcibly removes Scotland from the EU – and all in some kind of slow motion.

      It is happening. It is being allowed to happen. If you are not f****** angry after the announcement of how Scottish fishermen will be shafted (AGAIN!), then you need to open your eyes. Those fishermen have my sympathy, because they were deceived and lied to by lying Tories.

      The Scottish Government have a clear democratic mandate from the people of Scotland to NOT leave the EU. Is it not time they stopped worrying about ‘constitutional niceties’, since Westminster certainly isn’t. Westminster stopped playing by the ‘rules’ quite some time ago. The Scottish Government should do likewise. These are exceptional times, and requires exceptional responses. Playing ‘nicely’ will achieve sweet f all for Scotland, and yesterday made that very clear. Scotland will be left with nothing, and no way out of this brexit mess, if we wait any longer.

      This has to stop. Sitting waiting, waiting, waiting while we watch our country, Scotland, pulled to pieces before our eyes is simply not acceptable. NO other country anywhere in the world would sit back and tolerate this for one second. None.

      Brexit is the number 1 focus of Westminster. The Scottish Government needs to make it the same here. It is not ‘business as usual’. Every question, every statement by the SNP and Scotgov should be on one subject, Brexit.

    204. Nana says:


      The Tories are set to sell out Scottish fishing and abandon their promises to the industry, Kate Forbes MSP has said.

      Total said today that it would make 250 workers redundant in the north-east following its takeover of Maersk Oil.

    205. Nana says:

      Statement from the CFA

      Tory council chiefs have set a date for the planned closure of one of Perth’s oldest schools.

      One of the powers that The UK Govt wants to grab from Scotland Is GMO , if they take this power back they can overturn our ban on GM crops

    206. Ken500 says:

      Totally ignoring the problem in the fishing industry because fishermen overfished the seas for years. Some Scottish fishermen overfished the sea and threw dead fish back for years. Landed black fish. Broke UK/EU Law. Thst is what led to the decline in the fishing industry. Less fish to catch as stocks declined. There would have been no fish left to catch as some fishermen were determined to break UK Law and overfish the seas. The unionists fishermen who support the UK/Union but do not want to pay UK taxes. Some fishermen were ruining their own industry with their illegal actions. They woukd not change their fishing methods. It was nothing to do with EU membership or anything else. There was no Scottish representation in any negotiation. The UK fishing minister was a Home Counties Tory. Useless.

      It was only the last few years that the (SNP) Scottish Gov demanded representation at the negotiations. Demanded representation. They (Richard Lochhead) negotiated quotas being increased for the fishing industry to use bigger nets. They should have been doing all along like Norwegian etc. To conserve stocks. Not throwing dead fish back. They get EU grants cover any cost. Some fishermen the Buchan’s (worth £16million) were fined £Millions for breaking UK Law. They blame the SNP because of UK Law. It was nothing to do with them. A vendetta. Some fishermen are off their nose to spite their face. There was a need for conservation. Thst had to be undertaken. Or there would have been no fishing industry left.

      The Tories have muck that all up now. Total useless incompetents who are determined to destroy the Scottish economy for personal benefit. Renege on the people’s wishes. They are just appalling people who do not believe in Democracy but lie and cheat in every way they can.

      Many farmers and fishermen support the SNP and Independence. They donate and support generously. Possibly more progressive people who want to support and improve their industry. Some also support EU membership. Same as the General population. 50/50. The stinking biased non impartial Press and MSM do not give a true account of the farming and fishing industry. Too ignorant and useless. Click bait,

      The average farmer/fishermen are elderly. Approaching retirement? The average income from a farm is £27,000 (same as the average wage in Scotland). A hiusehold. (family) That is with the subsidies. The average are not very wealthy. Members of the household have to have other jobs. Outside. Part- time or otherwise. Many children will not take over the farms. Less off them and they can make a better living elsewhere for higher remuneration. In the near future many farms will change hands. Land will change ownership. Demographically. Be sold off. More innovative methods undertaken with the support of the (SNP) Scottish Gov. They have the knowledge and the ability to help.

      The Scottish Gov should publish the subsidies. In the interest of open Gov, faurnes and democracy. They should make some of the dissenters stop briefing.

      Many landowners/estates support the SNP and Independence. 50/50? Same as the general population.

      The Tory – unionists are incompetent and useless. The Tory Brexit is a disgrace. A few fishermen and farmers should notbbe used by the Tories as bait to muck up the whole Scottish world economy.
      Illegally scantioning and starving people to death worldwide.

    207. Nana says:

      I’m sure the shredders have been working through the night now Britain’s information minister has made it clear she is seeking a search warrant. Plenty of time for any incriminating evidence regarding the Tories to be wiped away.

      Part 2 of the expose to be aired tonight

      For anyone who missed [art 1 Channel4 expose last evening
      Cambridge Analytica Uncovered: Secret filming reveals election tricks

      Whatever you do, don’t mention Tory and Cambridge analytica in the same breath.

    208. Stravaiger says:

      About a year ago, I was standing waiting to get in to the SNP conference in Aberdeen and was approached by some north east fishermen who were waving placards and handing out leaflets, trying to show me the error of my ways. I told them that they’d been fooled and were going to get shafted. Seems I was right.

      Prediction- Farmers, you’re next. Sorry guys. Tell your mates.

    209. Davosa says:

      Scottish Tories – about as honest as a Romanian rugby referee. Where is Colonel Buffalo? Gone to ground as per usual the cowardly shit.

    210. Highland Wifie says:

      Excellent posts overnight. Do you lot never sleep?!
      Thanks for the links Nana. Just firing up the coffee machine.

    211. Ken500 says:

      The problems are the breaking of the electoral rules with impunity. The rules regarding donations and contributions for equality. Nor declared expenses accurate or otherwise. Breaking Purdah established for fairness. Wealthy individual are trying to buy elections with illegal donations. It does not always work. The can end up losing money.

      Secret donations to companies like Cambridge Analytica. The question is who paying them and where is the money coming from without disclosure. That is illegal and should be stoppped. They could not operate without breaking electoral regulation and dara protection laws. Money buying an Election, They are no deterrents because the electoral rules/Laws are broken with impunity. Gerrymandering is supposed to be punished by prison. These corrupt political parties just get away with a fine, which they pay with public money. Once again embezzled. Damaging democracy. Unfair, unequal and illegal.

    212. Macart says:


      Ta Nana. Sun splittin’ the trees this morning.

      Definitely two cup reading there. 🙂

    213. starlaw says:

      The Tories will make more nice promises to the fishermen asking for their support.
      The fishermen will collectively and lead by their Tory leader will all agree this is the best thing to do.
      On they will go repeating mistake after mistake until them and the Scottish Fishing industry is gone, then they will gather at the empty harbours and talk of the old days now gone, and how good it used to be.
      There is no hope for them.

    214. Bob Mack says:

      Always find it incredible that such a small country as Scotland with incredible resources finds itself struggling to keep people above the poverty line.

      There is only one reason for this. We have a larger partner who has an insatiable appetite,and who considers that Scotland is a subordinate nation who will just have to supply what is needed.

      Oil,fish,whisky,food, and other produce with an incredible international reputation will all lose their unique Scottish identity to UK who cares not a jot about where it comes from, but how they can promote themselves at our expense..

      We really have to get out, because the chances are that the level of assimilation will grow even more.

    215. Legerwood says:

      Nana @ 7.36am

      I believe the Information Commissioner, Elizabeth Denham, got the search warrant last night. When interviewed on CH4 news last night she said she was going to get one today but at the end of the news Jon Snow announced that she had now got a search warrant.

      Later tweets showed she and her colleagues were at Cambridge Analytica HQ in London.

    216. Ottomanboi says:

      The spokesman for the Scottish fisherman likes to talk of sovereignty,,the Unionist British variety naturally, he seems blind to the sovereignty waiting to be taken nearer home.
      Now is def. the time to quit FB, twitter and all such spying devices, if sensibly you have not done so already.
      Alternative to google browser….StartPage or DuckDuckGo neithe collect data or track.

    217. wull2 says:

      That is the next tactic, to stop us sharing the truth. They know the contacts reach far and wide, even to older relatives who keep in touch with their children and grandchildren.
      Keep on sharing the truth, and vote YES next time.

    218. Nana says:


      Aha good, thanks for update. I didn’t see the end of the programme. Let’s see what they find and what we will be told.

    219. Breeks says:

      I’m speechless.

      Just catching up on Channel 4’s Cambridge Analytica sting from last night, and my brain has gone overload on the ramifications.

      This is Scotland 3.5 years after an unsuccessful Independence Referendum, where rumours and “instincts” of underhand bias and manipulation were rife but dismissed, where businesses wandered into politics to warn Scots of economic disaster, where there is a Sovereign UK government pushing through a snoopers charter on internet traffic, where the media were instrumental in getting Scotland saddled with a UKIP MEP, and where “Dark Money” laundered through Northern Ireland gave added buoyancy to a toxic Tory election campaign with unparalleled surgical precision unseating both Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson. We still have that same Tory government actively seeking to deflect attention away from improprieties in UK elections by accusing the Russians of manipulation.

      If Cambridge Analytica was a sovereign country, what they appear to have done, if proven, would constitute an act of war against whichever Nation’s democracy they have corrupted.

      We have Channel 4 with a stunning coup and perhaps the biggest story of the decade, yet also tainted, because Channel 4 is part of the BritNat media which has no regard for Scotland’s Independence.

      Go for the jugular Channel 4. Bring the bastards down without mercy, compromise or respite. But be aware I might never trust your conclusions as to whether a foundling Cambridge Analytica was cutting it’s teeth in cahoots with BritNat Unionism right here in Scotland back in 2013/14.

    220. Dave Cossar says:

      So were the Scottish MSP’s consulted on the fishing deal?
      after it is a devolved matter is it not?
      Or were our MSP’s completley sidetracked will the Labour/Tories complain about this power grab we all knew was coming.
      For people to say we mainly do fish farming is ridiculous
      It’s worth a lot of money especially to the EU.

    221. Ottomanboi says:

      Scotland, as a UK territory, is unique in northern Europe for having third world type poverty, deprivation and poor education which ALL political parties have singularly failed to eliminate from the social context.
      The politics of Scotland is patently not serving its people. All too comfy, cozy blether.

    222. IHeartScotland says:

      Noting points above about the low SNP voter turnout at the last Westminster GE. Is it possible that the electorate was educated during Indyref1 that their vote was ‘useless’ at Westminster, and so didn’t bother to vote? Just wondering….

    223. starlaw says:

      When in history have England ever stood on its own two feet, never, It has always been leeching other countries, France Spain Wales Ireland Scotland and the entire Empire. Long past time it made its own way in the world. Independence for England.

    224. Socrates MacSporran says:

      According to this morning’s Herald, Colonel Yadaftie and her Westminster platoon of kamikaze special forces operatives, aka The Dirty Baker’s Dozen are prepared to bring down the Conservative Government, in support of Scottish Fishermen.

      There is but one response to this threat, and that is:

      AYE RIGHT!!!

    225. Macart says:


      Yes. Yes, we did vote overwhelmingly to remain, but we are also currently in the process of leaving. A50 has been triggered. There exists no precedent for this action or its legal/political repercussions. The law makers are literally making precedent as this happens.

      It’s not about waiting because people don’t feel like doing anything to stop it. It’s about waiting to see what can be legally and constitutionally acted upon as it occurs. Right now the best, most likely outcome is triggering a referendum simply to remain in the SM/CU and holding pattern/fast track re-entry to the EU. Yes, that alone is a precedent, but one that has been informed by exhaustive talks with EU representatives and Scottish government research. This partly informed the proposal handed to Downing street by Scotgov in January last year. That’s the informed scenario as it currently stands. Gawd knows what it will be tomorrow.

      As we’ve seen from N.I.s situation only this week they’ve been playing literally constitutional membership hokey cokey for the past two years. In, out, in, out, in, back stop, shake it all about. Again, a solution being made a precedent on the hoof. Two parts constitution, one part real politik, and one part what the people need/want. And it’s still not a done deal.

      I think it’s fair to say that a lot of the legal building blocks have been put in place by the SG already in two major pieces of legislation in the past year and a half. The statements on holding a referendum and the circumstances surrounding that are already made. May is playing for time before releasing the final deal, though most interested folk are aware of where it’s headed already and what the economic and societal ramifications are for the whole shemozzle. They range from disastrous to catastrophic is the upshot. As an independent country, Scotland can move from disastrous back to where we are now in very short order and from there work our way upward crafting government and economy for our own requirements.

      Whether we like waiting or not, it’s what we’re going to have to do so far as government actions are concerned. They are bound by laws. By the rule of law, competences and binding agreements.

      What we can do as the YES movement though? That’d be different. Getting in touch with local groups, preparing campaign ideas, discussing and refining arguments, getting them on leaflets. Creating and tailoring same, specifically aimed at the concerns of a local group’s area.

      And yes, my own stress levels are sky high at this point and nerves shot through. I’m on my fifth stress squeezey toy and the cat is nervous around me after one unfortunate (and accidental) incident. Maybe I should cut back on the coffee?

    226. IheartScotland says:

      Just to clarify, does it mean that a section of the electorate no longer regards Westminster as their ‘legitimate’ government?

    227. galamcennalath says:

      IheartScotland says:

      does it mean that a section of the electorate no longer regards Westminster as their ‘legitimate’ government?

      Morally and democratically, WM is certainly not my legitimate government. The legal fine details just need to be sorted out to reflect that.

      As for your point about the SNP vote going from 1.5 to 1.0 million, in round figures. IMO it’s all about independence. In 2015 many people were still motivated by the quest for it. In 2017 it barely featured. Thus the difference. Voters stayed at home mostly while smaller groups of others chose parties they felt were more relevant at WM.

      Again IMO, if Indy was front and centre, the SNP would have another landslide.

    228. ronnie anderson says:

      A wee message to MARY MILLER & CO ( lurkers)

      Whit ur you tryin tae dey make the Rev jealous ie [Ronnie’s proud lurker’s] LoL . Anyhows Mary I’m going to the HooP demo at Holyrood this Frid 23rd , if you & the other ladies want to go get someone to contact me on FaceBook to make arrangements I’ll pick you’s up & take you’s back home afterward’s , Btw it wiz BDTT that dobbed U in lol about the Donation you contributed Thanks for your support in that respect .

      I hope you can accept this invitation & any Wingers who know Mary Miller please let her know .

    229. Meg merrilees says:

      Liz g.

      Got your earlier message , no probs.

      Socrates re the 13 Scottish Tractor tories – my sentiment entirely – posted last night but it doesn’t seem to have appeared.

      They are meeting T May today – but wait there might have been a cunning plan all along!

      62 Tories have written a letter against May – including some of our Tractors.

      Gove and Davidson spoke up last week, with LOTS of press coverage.

      May on a sticky wicket and supposedly to be replaced by Rees- Mogg but how do you sell him to Scotland?

      Easy, pretend you’re about to shaft her fishermen, have Davidson now pretend to become angry, and say ‘she’ will bring down T May and abracadabra Rees Mogg pops up saying

      ‘I am Spartacus, I will lead the Fishermen’
      Scottish fishermen fall in meekly behind and then there i.e. no risk our fishermen will go over to the SNPEEBaad people.

      Notice a bit of cunning juxtaposition on the front page of the Hootsman.

      Headline all about fishing fiasco.
      Immediately underneath – a smiling picture of Nicola who is being discussed in relation to another project entirely but a casual glance would, of course, lead one to believe that Nicola is smirking at the bad news to the Tory supporting fishermen.

      Such betrayal by our own media is pathetic. It’s all a game to the Tories.

      Duncan-Smith on the radio this morning said that he didn’t think it was wrong if we lose British sugar beet growers because we can buy it cheaper elsewhere and wriggled but effectively said that he had no problems with our fishermen being sacrificed if it got us the best all round deal.

    230. ScottieDog says:

      I remember a young lady, her face a few inches from mine, shouting that I wanted to ruin her life by voting YES. This was down at Rosyth polling station on 18/9/14. She would lose her job at the dockyard she worked so hard to get if she voted yes…

      She asked if I could guarantee her job after Indy to which I replied that nothing is guaranteed. I asked if she could guarantee her job after a NO vote, but that just got her even angrier and her partner pulled her away.

    231. Les Wilson says:

      This Cambridge Analytical issue, I feel sure the Westminster Government would have known all about them and what they do.
      The BBC have been quiet about this in what was breaking news, only making some comment this morning to my knowledge. Why the delay when it a very big breaking story.

      When you think of what this company does and how it does it, you have to think that democracy anywhere can now be subverted, they have now been using these practices for many years.

      So my question would be, have the UK government had their assistance in Scottish voting? There are anomalies in both Indy1 and the Tories coming from nearly nowhere to win 13 MP seats in the last election.
      So it is a worthy question, someone in authority should be asking it.

    232. Obama was the first major political leader to use the power of social media to manipulate an election,

      in his quest for a second term he instigated `Project Narwhal`,

      he spent millions on bring in the best modern computer geeks and technicians and analytics to provide the software and hardware of a nation wide program to influence key voters and help with getting donations through targeted social media,

      he won.

    233. galamcennalath says:


      Let’s hope a lot of NO voters are ‘once bitten twice shy’.

      Next time, if we can win the propaganda war to paint the Union as the riskiest option, then we have won IMO.

      If they succeed in make Indy still seem like the big risk to jobs, savings, pensions, then I’m a lot less certain.

    234. IheartScotland says:

      Cheers,it’s just that I was wondering if it was one of the successes of the Yes campaign that we made people aware of the ‘democratic deficit’ of being in this awful union. (Should have made my point clearer)

    235. jfngw says:

      I can only assume the Davidson quote at the next Indyref will be ‘Yes means in, No means out. We are already leaving the EU, only a No vote will guarantee we leave and take back control’.

      The Tory whips are currently hard at work trying to calculate how many Scots Tories can vote against the EU bill whilst still guaranteeing it will not be voted down. They are that cynical.

    236. Effijy says:

      Wee Ruth the Truthless has brokered a deal at Westminster
      For the Scottish Fishermen!

      After the latest Tory Scam damages their industry and
      No doubt remains about them sailing along on a raft of lies,
      Ruth now assures their leader Bertie that free Chips will be
      Provided for ever Westminster Fish landed.

      Once the next 10 years of austerity have passed and some recovery
      Has been made after the Brexit disaster, a Pickled onion might be added
      To the Chips deal?

      Fish and Chumps for Westminster!

    237. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Scot Finlayson

      That’s interesting stuff about Obama, but I reckon he won again because people could still remember Bush.

    238. Proud Cybernat says:

      Duncan-Smith… effectively said that he had no problems with our fishermen being sacrificed if it got us the best all round deal.

      Which is just another way of saying that, “A pound spent in Croydon is of more value to the ‘country’ than a pound spent in Strathclyde.” (BoJo).

      ‘Twas ever thus.

    239. galamcennalath says:

      Les Wilson says:

      democracy anywhere can now be subverted … someone in authority should be asking it


      It’s normal to build databases of voters who have already shown support or should be worth targeting. Simple things, like postcode, can be statistical indicators of intent.

      However, some of the stuff I’ve read has been horrendous. At a whole different level. Encouraging people to use apps whose aim is not as advertised, but is actually to harvest data. And not just of the immediate target, it sucks up data about all their friends too.

      There is a bigger issue, though. Transgressions in political campaigning are committed in all sorts of ways yet the punishment never seems sufficient. Literally, political crime is allowed to pay.

      Votes need to be declared null and void, locally or nationally, when ‘plots’ are uncovered. Look at the way the Tories poured money, people, and resources into marginal constituencies and didn’t declare it. As marginals they could have swung the result, yet nowhere has this been nullified.

      And as for these mammoth multi million pound/dollar widescale online manipulation projects – if these have crossed the line with data collection and use, then the whole vote should be rerun. Suppose EURef was actually nobbled by online techniques. Suppose we lose ScotRef because of it!

    240. manandboy says:

      Executives from Cambridge Analytica spoke to undercover reporters from Channel 4 News about the dark arts used by the company to help clients, which included entrapping rival candidates in fake bribery stings and hiring prostitutes to seduce them.

      In one exchange, the company chief executive, Alexander Nix, is recorded telling reporters: “It sounds a dreadful thing to say, but these are things that don’t necessarily need to be true as long as they’re believed.”

      Meanwhile, Thresa May who is standing in for the UK Prime Minister, is reported to have said, “The trashing of democracy in Britain is not my concern at the moment while I have a sick Russian double-agent as a basis for a massive propaganda campaign with which to brainwash the UK’s already misinformed electorate of 40 million.”

    241. Breeks says:

      Les Wilson says:
      20 March, 2018 at 9:22 am

      This Cambridge Analytical issue, I feel sure the Westminster Government would have known all about them and what they do…

      I’d go further Les.

      There has always been something that niggled me about “No to a second Referendum” as a calling card for Unionism. Nevermind pro or anti Independence leanings, I have never heard such a brazenly counter intuitive, anti-democratic “political” rallying point as “What do we want? Less Democracy! When do we want it? Now!”

      Unionism WON in 2014, then ran for cover like a scalded whippet, desperate to shut the door on democracy behind itself.

      In the light of revelations about Cambridge Analytica, it seems prudent to speculate whether “No to a Second Referendum” was inspired by an unimaginative committee, or the Frankenstein composite, – the lowest common denominator of concerns trawled from Unionist internet traffic on social media.

    242. Proud Cybernat says:


      “Maugham’s post, which is extremely careful to keep the identity of the BBC figure who leaked the information secret – naming them only as ‘X’ – went on to claim that the BBC figure wrote to him explaining “explicitly and unambiguously about how criticisms of Corbyn that the BBC could not voice were deliberately coded into imagery.“

      Maugham’s blogpost also went on to say that the Senior BBC figure ‘clearly understood that [their] comments were sensitive for the BBC“.” from:

      Who knew?

    243. wee bud says:

      Bertie Armstrong on Radio 2 news blaming both governments and highlighted by newsreader… Snpbaaadd..

      I’ve noticed a lot of top union officials are from other parts of the UK.. Just an observation..

    244. Ken500 says:

      @ Craig Murray

      Even though there are deletes and bans. Freedom of speech and all that? unwarranted criticism of SNP. Only helps the opposition. It is better in some extremely minority cases to be out of the SNP than in it. Not to have to toe the line. To establish support and achieve Independence. Paradoxically outside in. A maverick.

      Craig Murray is not a dissenter. Cannot be described as such. He is an authority. Expressing mainstream views. The majority are behind that. Ie freedom of speech. Any opposition is totally in a minority compared to the mass support.

    245. Molly says:

      Thanks Meg Merrilees just no one seems to be talking about Gibraltar .

      Years ago Jon Ronson wrote a book about psychopaths – you can even take a test. Anyway one of the people he interviewed had created this system called mosaic . In the book he states both Labour and the Tories used mosaic.

      The independent Commision on Referendums ( who what why and how) by the Constitution Unit are holding a monthly meeting ‘to consider how their rules and practice could be improved’.

      The meeting is being held in The Woolfson Lexture Theatre in George Street on March 26th ( 1-2.30)

      They intend to report in the summer.

      In the light of Cambridge Analytica it would be a shame not to hear what they have to say

    246. Ken500 says:

      Bertie Armstrong is a liar. Not the fishermen’s friend. He has let down the industry for ever. A maverick. Who is funding him?

    247. Fred says:

      Bertie Armstrong on the wireless blaming both governments for his own stupidity/gullibility & claiming that hind-sight was a wonderful thing.

      Who is this clown/ how much does he get paid & whose fish is it anyhow?

    248. JLT says:


      ‘Your not posting often nowadays but when you do it’s always good.`Come back more often when you can’

      Hi mate. Apart from still doing my Uni Studies and working away (doing a lot of Overtime in Glasgow at the weekends at the moment), my little household has been through the mill over the last 18 months with my stepdaughter getting over cancer (17 at the time, now 19, so it was very hard for her being just a kid/young adult). Everything just came to a grinding halt, mate. However, she is on the road to recovery, but it is a slow process.

      As Brexit ramps up however (and the fallout from it), I probably will get around to posting a lot more LOL. See you on future posts!

    249. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2 never mind “inheriting” Typhoons, go straight for the Gripens. they can be leased cheap, by the time you factor in running costs and conversation for both air and ground crew they will be still cheaper than the hideously expensive and as Was quoted when bae system recently announcing redundancies “Obsolete” Typhoon. remember first flight was 24 years ago!! Its gonna be nearly 30 by the time we set up a SAF.

    250. Robert Louis says:

      Macart at 0902am,

      I agree with your summary, but as regards your line “They are bound by laws. By the rule of law, competences and binding agreements.”, That is the point.

      Westminster has just unilaterally voted itself dictator (Henry 8th) powers, removing a fundamental pillar of the constitutional settlement – parliamentary scrutiny for the change of primary legislation. The point I make is simply this, they are riding roughshod over THEIR competences within a supposed parliamentary democracy, where an elected parliament should control the executive (and not the other way around). So, why are we in Scotland still insisting we simply MUST, must, must play be the accepted ‘competences’.

      I do think people are not seeing the bigger picture. London is re-writing the rules to suit themselves. Scotland is plodding on still playing by those ‘made up’ rules.

      If they can change the constitutional rules, then so should we.

      Let’s put it another way, suppose the Scottish parliament voted in legislation (despite all the cries and protests that they ‘are not ‘allowed’ to), an act to say, keep Scotland within the EU.

      London of course would say, that is unconstitutional, but at the end of the day, what could they do? Would they really wish to fight brexit on two fronts – actually going to court to literally FORCE Scotland out of the EU? Can you imagine how that would play out? News headlines around Europe, England goes to court to ignore wishes of Scots and forcibly remove Scotland from the EU.

      You see, the point I am making, is that the Scots gov should be creating such situations, to;

      1. Make life difficult for London.

      2. To make sure the whole world realises that Scotland is being forcibly removed from the EU against its wishes.

      Sadly, I think too many folks seem to be just accepting what London is doing. ‘Oh, well they’ve enacted article 50, well that’s that then. Nothing we can do’.

      This is an exceptional situation, right up there with the treaty of union in 1707, and I see too many folks who seem almost resigned to Westminster doing whatever they like, with impunity. Westminster should be made to fight every single inch of the way. Obstacle after obstacle. Instead all we get are official statements of frustration or anger at Westminster – the response to which by London is so what?

      Not trying to disagree with you, just raising some points. The Scot gov really should be making life unfathomably difficult for London, but instead they keep offering to compromise and offer appeasement. They keep suggesting they’ll approve the brexit legislation if they get the right powers – but they were elected on a manifesto to oppose such a move. If Scotland gets certain powers, and they then vote through the brexit approval in Scotland, from that point onwards, London will say ‘the Scottish Parliament voted for brexit’. It might be untrue but that is what they will say.

      The current approach doesn’t work for me, I’m afraid. Waaay too much appeasement. The damage of brexit is being done. Once it is fully in place, it will be far too late to hold an indy referendum.

    251. Graeme says:

      “However, some of the stuff I’ve read has been horrendous. At a whole different level. Encouraging people to use apps whose aim is not as advertised, but is actually to harvest data. And not just of the immediate target, it sucks up data about all their friends too.”

      This is exactly why we should not use closed source software of any kind not only these apps but any proprietery code including & especially Microsoft Windows which is simply spyware, Facebook or anything Google.

      I hope one day an independent Scotland will follow the example of Barcelona and move over to open source

    252. CapnAndy. says:

      Posted this on Munguin, but I do believe everyone should stop and think. This is tooo good to be true from an Indy point of view. Something else is happening.
      I’ve a nasty feeling about this fishing business and here’s why.
      All of a sudden the Scots Tories are threatening to bring down Maybot. All very honourable, but lets remember, these are the same zoomers who marched through the lobbies to end free school meals for over a million English school lids, even though they didn’t have to.
      Moggadon and his hard brexit buddies are all of a sudden saying they’ll support the the Scots Tories. When in reality they don’t give a shit about Scotland.
      What’s going on?
      I’m fearful that this is going to be used as an excuse to bring down Maybot and go for a hard brexit. Maybe I’m paranoid, but maybe everybody is out to get me, we’ll see.

      By the by, Armstrong is a complete fool telling us that we can’t trust Europe after being so completely betrayed by Westminster, but there and again, Armstrong maybe knows what’s going on. If the fisherfolk want to show a bit of backbone and sense, they could start by getting rid of that devious idiot.

    253. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 20 March, 2018 at 12:01 am:

      They have failed for the fishermen and it’s the farmers next. We can be absolutely certain of that.</i.

      I think you got that a wee bit wrong, Thepnr. They are often land owners and farmers themselves and will thus do everything to better themselves at the expense of everyone else including Scottish hill farmers, crofters and tenant farmers. See how Westminster skimmed off EU money meant for the small Scottish tenant hill farmers and gave it to the bigger farmers in England.

      The biggest factor in those rural areas of Scotland has always been the, "folla the maister", mindset. In living memory those, "Maisters", would load estate workers, (or the estate farm's workers), onto carts or trailers and transport them to the polls.

      These workers lived in tied cottages or servant's quarters and there were still a few farm bothies about, (I was born on such a farm in just such a tied hovel in a, "Pluckies Raw",

      Now, believe it or not, in the early 1970s, my late wife's cousin asked me to give him a lift visit an old uncle of his wife's. This Uncle was a retired and very old farm worker. He lived in a rural area not too far from the town of Kinross.

      I was amazed to find he still lived in a tied farm cottage. No electricity, no piped gas, no indoor water or drainage, an outdoor dry cludgy and it had no proper flooring, just hard packed clay floors.

      This farm was an outlying farm on a very large estate owned by a well known titled gentleman who was a Tory government minister. Go figure? These big estates had a home farm and four Shiels farms. Note there are still place-names all over Britain like, "North Shiels".

      Today vast areas of Scotland still have their main local employment as estate workers or tenant farmers on the big estate – their livelihood and homes thus still depends upon them following the Master.

    254. Robert Peffers says:

      @Big Phil says: 20 March, 2018 at 12:36 am:

      “Maybe its because nobody answered them, or ‘Took their bait’.
      Excellent thread tonight.”

      Far more likely that Stu has just quietly banned the worst offenders.

    255. Balaaargh says:

      The Guardian called it last year:

    256. Balaaargh says:

      Also, if you are worried (rightly) about advertising and Microsoft’s telemetry, your choices are to stay off the net or use something like pi-hole.

    257. Abulhaq says:
      Check out the above link. Why Scotland matters to colonialist BritState. Not rocket science.

    258. Mosstrooper says:

      Heard Bertie on radio 4 this morning talk about the government in this “Northern” part of the country letting the fishermen down. When asked if he was blaming Westminster he said that both governments of this “northern” part of the land had let them down.

      The arse couldn’t bring himself to say Scotland.

    259. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Robert Louis

      “They keep suggesting they’ll approve the brexit legislation if they get the right powers – but they were elected on a manifesto to oppose such a move.”

      My understanding is that ScotGov is merely giving its consent to the EU Withdrawal Bill formerly known as ‘The Great Repeal Bill’ is simply about bringing EU law into UK/Scots Law upon Brexit. That is not the same as approving Brexit.

      The ScotGov are fighting a number of fronts here. With the Continuity Bill they are ensuring that, should we be forced out along with UK, then those devolved EU laws will fall under Scots law. At the same time the ScotGov is tirelessly showing how bad BREXIT will be for the country and is fighting for us to remain AT LEAST in the Single Market & Customs Union. They are having to cover all eventualities. They don;t want BREXIT, are trying whatever they can to frustrate it but at the same time, they realise the necessity in protecting the Devo settlement should we crash out.

      It’s a very nuanced balancing act – trying to protect what we have but at the same time contingency planning should things go arse up. At least, that’s my understanding of things.

    260. Ottomanboi says:

      Lions led by donkeys or shoals by led by Unionist sharks.
      I have now learnt that, in practice, commonsense is rather uncommon.

    261. Bobp says:

      Robert Louis 10.37am. Agree with your post here Robert. England (westminster) just making policy/rules on the hoof. We should start making our own rules.

    262. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 20 March, 2018 at 12:59 am:

      “But would efta/eea be happy to accept a country that would be voting to leave it quite soon?”

      With Scotland’s combination of resources and her strategic geographic location the various international bodies of the World will be jostling one another in the queue to get Scotland to join them.

      For heaven’s sake Scotland has been subsidising the rest of the United Kingdom even when the UK was the British Empire.

      What! You doubt me?

      Have a look at this from the Wings archives:-

      Note the percentage of revenue raised in Scotland spent in the rest of the United Kingdom between 1917 and 1919.

      Almost 90% of the Westminster gathered revenue from Scotland spent on the rest of the United Kingdom. Now ask yourself this question – why did Westminster stop publishing their figures in this form?

      Now we have GERS and sneering Britnats telling us we are scroungers upon the UK and that what we get isn’t a tiny fraction of our own raised revenue back but is, “English taxpayers money”. But there is no specific category as English Tax Payers because England is accounted as The United Kingdom and is finance directly by Westminster as the UK – a UK that decides what Bloch Grant every one else is allowed to get.

    263. Dr Jim says:

      Notice how the newspapers say *Brexit betrays Scottish fishermen* not Tories…Subliminally blaming voters and not Tory negotiators, which might be partially correct were it not for the fact that Scotland never voted for Brexit in the first place

      So YES Tories betrayed Scotlands fishermen

      So in case Scottish fishermen were thinking about blaming voters too, remember, Scottish fishermen voted for their own downfall the rest of us told them not to do it because the effing Tories would betray them

      We provide schools for them to go to, we inform them as much as we can, all information is placed in front of them, we tell them clearly you’re screwing up the country, do they listen?, NO, so quite frankly now that they’re bleating about their own stupidity and greed to everybody why on earth do these fishermen hope that the rest of the population of Scotland gives a toss about them anymore

      Scotland needs a fishing industry for the future but if we’re going to have one we can’t depend on these North East wasters being in charge of it because they keep proving to the rest of us they’re idiots, and greedy ones at that
      Quite frankly we could replace them with chewing gum and get a better outcome

    264. Phronesis says:

      Davis:Brexit is not an ‘Anglo-Saxon’ race to the bottom.
      Scotland replies : Quite.It’s not a race -no other country is competing with UKOK to plumb the depths of economic ruin especially Scotland.
      Scotland’s fishing and farming ( and all its affiliated industries,businesses and communities),the Scottish NHS,renewable energy,our small businesses the list goes on are all under threat from a process that Scotland ( the country) did not vote for but will never be respected by WM. Scotland’s relationship with the EU should be determined by Scotland and not by a cabal who are incompetent, out of their depth and possibly going to walk away abruptly with no deal.

      This group ( if genuine) appear to have a different opinion entirely on their party’s future in Scotland and it seems that linguistic diversity is possible and healthy within the YES movement but anchored to a common ideology.

    265. Macart says:


      Your points and fears are valid. How and ever, UK gov have two things going in their favour currently. The result of 2014’s indyref where a slim majority of Scotland’s population voted to retain the political union and the result of the recent GE where a goodly number of SNP MPs were replaced by pro Westminster lobby fodder. This doesn’t alter the fact that the SNP won that election in Scotland, but it did put a hefty dent in electoral momentum and mandate.

      I suspect the Scottish government are loathe to act without the will of the population behind them and the will of the population is what the current Scottish government are all about. It’s what makes them who they are and worthy of the job. It is also a two edged sword though. They are prepared to act on popular will, but can be constrained by that same will. Basically, our own electorate gave Westminster permission to do what they’re doing currently.

      As for frustrating WM? I’d say the preparatory legislation for a referendum, passed last year and continuance bill (currently being under scrutiny), not to mention Scotgov’s submission to the withdrawal bill both at the SC and currently under negotiation process, is throwing a few spanners in the works.

      Yes, you’re absolutely right. Westminster doesn’t stick to agreements. They don’t play by the rules. They do make shit up as they go along to suit their own needs. Hard as it is to take though, our electorate gave them leave to do so in 2014. Even in the face of a mountain of historic evidence that they absolutely could not be trusted to keep their word.

      I’d say the SG believe that working within the rule of law and current competences is a case of ‘because someone has to’. Someone has to stick to their agreements or no one can be trusted to. The window will be tight, no question, but there is an opportunity coming. Then it will be over to the people to choose.

      Right now though, I may need something to throw in frustration myself. 🙂

    266. Ottomanboi says:

      As represented by their respective leaders the English, in common with the Americans, are perplexed when non-anglosaxons express a degree of wariness or distrust in their regard.
      For truly the perfidy of Albion is not strained, it is freely available to all the gullible. We ought to know better.

    267. Breeks says:

      Robert Louis says:
      20 March, 2018 at 10:37 am

      …I do think people are not seeing the bigger picture. London is re-writing the rules to suit themselves. Scotland is plodding on still playing by those ‘made up’ rules.

      If they can change the constitutional rules, then so should we…

      I don’t disagree, but we don’t need to change the Constitution rules, merely clarify what they are, and have the Global Establishment, specifically the UN and the EU, recognise Scotland as a Sovereign Nation, recognise the Union is a bilateral, “bi-national” treaty, and acknowledge that Scotland, even Scotland that is still part of the UK, is competent as a sovereign interlocutor which can act independently from Westminster.

      That distinction is tangible. The trial of Megrahi took place in Scottish court, in the Netherlands, where a special sitting of the High Court of Justiciary was set up under Scots law in the Netherlands. If Scot’s law can be recognised as a robust and sound International protocol which can stand apart from UK jurisdiction on its own two feet, yet in doing so not shatter the integrity of UK Law, then the same principles can be applied to Sovereignty.

      I would accept the Scottish Court set up in the Netherlands was done with a supportive consensus of all parties, which the argument about Scottish Sovereignty would not have, but consensus is just the enabling agreement, and not the legitimacy of the legal principle which is absolute…

      No rules need changed, merely how certain rules as perceived.

    268. heedtracker says:

      Whatever you do, don’t mention Tory and Cambridge analytica in the same breath.”

      Great links Nana! on another lovely Glasgow morning. Well total creep out really.

      Not mentioning the tories and analytica is very worrying.

      They have all the UK media, BBC is a rolling party political broadcast on behalf of the Conservative party, City, big oil etc, BUT its still not enough for our tory masters.

    269. Greannach says:

      For laughs, have a look at the Scottish Fishing Federation’s website, particularly their Twitter feed full of praise for TankTop and Gove.

      Do I feel sorry for my relatives who are on fishing boats? Yes, but you were told who sold you out before and who would do it again. So in this case, “Yes” means “No”.

    270. heedtracker says:

      Nothing from Scottish fish folks new best friend Severin Carrell of the Graun today, shock! But stinky olde the Graun’s mock shock horror at Analytica coverage is funny, shock!

      “Cambridge Analytica boasts of dirty tricks to swing elections
      Bosses tell undercover reporters how honey traps, spies and fake news can be used to help clients”

      “In one exchange, the company chief executive, Alexander Nix, is recorded telling reporters: “It sounds a dreadful thing to say, but these are things that don’t necessarily need to be true as long as they’re believed.”

      Isn’t that carved in granite over the entrance to every UK newsroom?

      Or lesson 1 in every UK journo college class?

      “There are things that don’t necessarily need to be true as long as they’re believed.”

      First line in the beeb gimp newby starter packs too.

    271. Thepnr says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      Regarding the BBC using imagery as a means of criticising Jeremy Corbyn without actually using words.

      I don’t think anyone who has ever saw BBC Breakfast introducing Nicola Sturgeon with this clip can ever forget it.

      Nor do I think after watching it again that anyone could believe that it wasn’t done deliberately. Why would anyone want to pay for this to be beamed into their living rooms is beyond me.

    272. Ottomanboi says:

      Independence is taken, no one will gift it to you, least of all that remnant of empire in London.
      We are not British, we are Scots, we owe this system nothing.
      How much insult does it take to get our people really angry.
      Or is our National Movement well and truly *spooked*. Something is not right in the state of Scotland. Some one is applying the brakes.
      In the psychological propaganda game we’re stuck in level one.

    273. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      I agree, I’d prefer the Gripens. Comparison ratings now they take the Meteor BVR missile put them high in the top 10 for head to head air defence, even above Typhoon in one. They apparently have a 10 minute mission turnaround, and way longer maintenance schedule dates.

      Problem is we can’t presume a cash value of £10 billion as our share as some seem to do, the rUK doesn’t have a lot of money and may prefer to share phyical assets to an equivalent value – which would be completely their right.

      I’d actually prefer to have our own frigates as well rather than the T23, we’d want to design differently, more general purpose. I’ve tried to cover both share and cash value.

    274. Iain mhor says:

      I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on the whole ‘Cambridge Analytica & Facebook stole my election/ referendum’ stories.
      Demographic Analysis was already a forensic science before they popped up. From first hand experience, the mystic ability to nail your life to the wall with surgical precision is frightening when encountered.
      One industry I worked within decades ago was particularly good at it. I was told everything about my life down to favourite hobbies and musical tastes, income, etc. This was to push product to targetted demographics accordingly – via advertising but also other media such as social events and much more. Very, very successful at it they were too. I learned a lot and can laugh hollowly when I see it in practice.
      Social media datamining is just a new kid on the block and another source of data and manipulation. The technique has been around a long time. Having the data is only one small piece. Knowing how to use it is the trick. One that you don’t need deep data to be successful at. It’s hard to rig elections it’s easier to rig people. Ridiculously easy actually.
      Content is key – Tailor your specific points to your demographic. Better Together identified one of theirs without the need for deep data. Pension age voters – lead on pension scares etc. It was K.I.S.S without the need for deep data – SME’s and their workforce (out of EU trade and jobs affected) and so on. Brexit was Immigration and Johnny Foreigner – an easy sell and guaranteed core support without even opening a database or RT’ing a single tweet.

      In case anyone is despairing that perhaps the Indy movement does not have the resources, the data, demographic analysis and power the big boys do – Fear not, it does indeed and it’s also very good at vectoring. If it wasn’t, half of the voting population wouldn’t have heard of it far less back it – if you have a message sell it simply, make it relevant to the person you’re speaking with.
      When the final reckoning arrives in another vote – Pick up the pencils and answer “Independence Y/N?”
      There’s no need to ask if you want fries with that?

    275. Jack Murphy says:

      Off Topic TODAY. The BBC at it again. 🙁
      ‘Welcome to the BBC’

      “A BBC local radio presenter has revealed to MPs that she tried to kill herself, partly because of stress over her employment arrangements.

      The anonymous presenter was among the BBC TV and radio presenters to submit evidence to a parliamentary inquiry.

      Many of them said they were pressured by the corporation to set up personal service companies (PSCs), which led to huge bills for unpaid tax for some………” !!!!! 🙁

      Hidden away under Entertainment and Arts ! :

    276. Clootie says:

      So the Tories in London have come up with a new line today.
      It is only an interim situation, a short delay, just wait and you will have full control of the N/Sea
      Will they fall for this…probably! (Bertie will coax and convince)

      Access by European fleets to UK waters is is huge bargaining chip. The biggest one the UK negotiators have. They will use it because it has no downside for London in comparison to achieving a better deal.

      Bertie is a loyal unionist ( in every sense of the word). He was put there to sell Brexit AND ensure deflection…you only need listen to him today.

      In my view a Scottish Government would have been a stronger voice for the industry but they believed the UK line because it was what they wanted to hear.

      The shipyards will get more contracts
      The Vow
      The NHS will get more money
      The fishermen will get full control of our waters
      The farmers will get a grant to replace the EU payments
      We are only borrowing the devolved powers for a short time

      The Tories keep using the same tactic because it works…but only because ScotBUTs keep falling for it.
      “..Insanity – when you keep doing the same thing and expect a different result”

      More promises coming shortly.

      Our farmers and fisherman trust the union to look after there future. However so did workers in all of the industries that once existed in Scotland.
      The simple equation is the City of London produces the wealth…the rest of the country shoul be grateful

    277. Clootie says:

      Doh! Their not there in last paragraph…must check before posting!!!

    278. yesindyref2 says:

      @Iain mhor
      if you have a message sell it simply, make it relevant to the person you’re speaking with.

      I’d add make the product and packaging attractive and that’ll help the product sell itself. Use of words is important too, also shortness. A quick one:

      “This is our appliance for removing dust and small particles from different parts of the house, it weighs 2.3 Kg and is a cylinder of length 0.73 metres with a diameter of 0.2 metres, the rechargeable batteries have a 2 Ah charge and will last for 1 hour of use before being replaced in the wall-mounted recharging unit which is included in the box which measures …”


      “[image smiling person holding it] Emergency guests in 30 minutes? PortaVac will have the place looking dust-free without wires and still time for a quick cuppa”.

    279. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 20 March, 2018 at 1:58 am:

      “the eu has already said we woulkd need to rejoin as a new state via article 49. bear in mind, we might have already left by the time we hold indyref2.”

      First things first, schrodingers cat. Be very, very careful what you say on that matter. Did the EU actually say so?

      Remember the personal statements made by such as José Manuel Barroso. Who was not only an European Commissioner but a European Commission President and as such was an EU Civil Servant.

      Not only was he often misquoted by the SMSM and MSM but was portrayed as quoting as official statements of the EU after plainly stating it was his own personal opinions and not either those of the EC or EU.

      Furthermore he was portrayed as speaking officially on behalf of Spain but is in fact Portuguese. To be clear the EC do not make any decisions but carry out the decisions of the EU Parliament.

      There is a long history of both Westminster and the UK propaganda force of either misquoting, wrongly claiming personal opinions as official statements or not reporting things we are entitled to know.

    280. geeo says:

      Apparently, it has been confirmed that ruth davidson will be hailed the fishermens hero for leading a fake revolt against WM, and gaining a meaningless “guarantee” activated from 2021 (what happened to “i will not back any brexit deal which does not involve full control of fishing”, when she meant full control on 29th March 2019)

      Media headlines..”Scottish Tories ‘save’ the fishing industry” !!

      SNP OUT etc….tories in…etc.

      Laughable if that sector was not so gullible.

      Brexit is clearly about, how can the tories crash out the EU but save their ‘precious union’ ?

      They know that the harder they crash out the EU (preferred option) the harder sell to save the Union, but the softer they leave the EU (not an ootion in tory real world) the higher the chance of an (next) election losing tory civil war, but slightly more chance of keeping the union.

      The tories are trying to keep their plates spinning on sticks, while someone is chopping off their hands as they spin them.

    281. Nana says:


      Alyn Smith says

      The Inner House of the Court of Session have accepted our appeal on the revocability of Article 50. Judgment here, statement to follow

    282. Jack Murphy says:

      There’s not anything Ruth Davidson can promise about the Tory MPs from Scotland.

      They are answerable to their constituents and to the Tory Party WHIPS at Number 12 Downing Street.

      Ruth Davidson can huff,puff,promise and bluster for all she likes,but she has no direct control over the Tory MPs from Scottish constituencies——-the UK Westminster Tory Whips have full control.

    283. geeo says:

      As ever, beat me to that link re Article 50…!

      Kudos as ever…!

    284. Nana says:

      geeo 🙂

      I just happened to be having some lunch when I saw the link tweeted.

      Spotted this one and man is he correct

    285. Bobp says:

      Iain mhor 12.36pm. Aye they lied to the pensioners last indy ref. My wife’s cousin has retired after receiving his state pension, and gone to live in the irish republic. . I was thinking of retiring to Scotland, but if they vote for independence my wife and I would lose our state pensions which we have paid into the DWP all our lives for. but not if we went to live in Spain.EXACTLY only total Mung beans would fall for that sh**e a 2nd time ?.

    286. Foonurt says:

      Ah heard yoan erse, John Lamont oan Radio Scoattlin thurr moarnin.

      Talk aboot back-trackin yurr wurds, efturr bravado oan digital meejah. Afore ae gits daudit, fae thurr Colonel Davidson.

    287. crazycat says:

      @ Liz g

      Since no-one answered your question at 3 o’clock this morning (approx.) – this report by the late and much missed John Ainslie should be enlightening:

    288. Rock says:

      schrodingers cat,

      i agree, the loss of snp mps was due to tactical voting by the britnats and the low turnout of snp voters.”

      Rank hypocrisy from Ken500 who is strongly in favour of bringing the “first-past-the-post” system to the Scottish parliament.

      Ken500 (12th March – “In Scotland’s corner”):

      “The unionists voted tactically at the last Westminster election under FPTP and still ended up,with less seats than the SNP one party) The SNP ended up with a sizeable majority. Higher than all other combined Parties in Scotland.”

      Rock (12th March – “In Scotland’s corner”):

      “The SNP lost 23 seats out of 56.

      If we have your beloved “first-past-the-post” next time, the unionists will make sure that the SNP is almost wiped out of the Scottish parliament.

      In how many seats does the SNP have more than 50% support?”

    289. Liz g says:

      Crazycat @ 7.22
      Thank you,that will be my position on it.
      De – Nuke it as soon as possible….. Then they can have time to re home the sub’s!
      I and everything I care about live I the blast zone of the thing.
      So I want MY governments protection from it from day one.
      But more than that.
      Why should we as a nuclear free country, host them so that a nuclear one can get it’s act together?
      Also we by keepin them would be just giving Westminster room to procrastinate on moving them…..let us show them how to ACTUALLY kick a can down the road….well a sea lane.

      Oh and strangely enough I couldn’t see that question last night,I thought it just disappeared into the Web!!!

    290. geeo says:

      Here is a wee insight into FPTP at Holyrood.

      If the WHOLE 129 seats at Holyrood were decided by FPTP in 2016, based on the % of Actual FPTP constituency seats won, the SNP would have won 104(.5) seats out of 129.

      Kinda ruins your narrative, princess.

    291. Rock says:


      “Here is a wee insight into FPTP at Holyrood.

      If the WHOLE 129 seats at Holyrood were decided by FPTP in 2016, based on the % of Actual FPTP constituency seats won, the SNP would have won 104(.5) seats out of 129.

      Kinda ruins your narrative, princess.”

      That was before Nicola spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The 2017 Westminster election resulted in the SNP losing 23 seats due to successful tactical voting by the unionists under FPTP.

      If FPTP were to be used at the next Holyrood election, the unionists led by Pravda GB and the black arts department of the British Establishment would make sure the SNP was almost wiped out of the Scottish parliament.

      In how may seats did the SNP get more than 50% support at the last Holyrood election?

    292. Cubby says:

      Scottish fishermen = gullible mugs.

      Scottish Tories = take advantage of gullible mugs.

    293. Effijy says:

      Jacob Sleeze-Mug to join fishernens flotila
      On the Thames to protest against the EU
      retaining the right to fish Scottish waters
      When Westminster could be robbing them

      Will he turn up in his luxury yacht and have
      His crew feed him smoked Salmond sandwiches ?

      Tory Sanjid Javid suggests he had given £218 million
      To build THOUSANDS of new homes in South England?

      With the excessive cost of land and pay rates down there
      He would be lucky to build 6 homes per £million.
      I make that roughly 1,308!homes.Not thousands.

      Wonder what rich Tory benefactor will be given the contract?

    294. Greannach says:

      Has anybody managed to work out what the Jacob Mogg Fish Flinging party was all about?

    295. Gordie says:

      The press have given the Scottish tories another couple of years to spin out the line that they are fighting for the fishing industry. This time add the Tory government in Westminster to the EU cfp, SNP etc. They might even make out of it if people are willing to buy into this new line of course.

    296. admiral says:

      Cople of interesting stories in the Grauniad today.

      1) Several police forces in England are taking DAYS to respond to 999 calls. Due to severe cuts in bdget, initiated by none other than St Theresa May. Now what’s the betting that wee Willie, Colonel Ruth and Trick Dickie will be screeching and squawking how terrible it is? What’s the betting that the rest of the media will pick it up and use it as a stick to beat the Tories with?

      2) The new true blue post Brexit passports will be made in Europe by a French-Dutch company. Predictable outrage from Brexiteers – however, will anyone point out to them that this is the sort of thing that will be required in a “global trading nation”?

      I won’t hold my breath, just in case.

    297. admiral says:

      Greannach says:

      21 March, 2018 at 11:43 am

      Has anybody managed to work out what the Jacob Mogg Fish Flinging party was all about?

      Part of his strategy to oust Theresa May and become Prime Minister – it appeals to the howling loons of the Tory fascist tendency.

      Aided and abetted by the Torygraph, Daily Heil and other newspapers of a fascist tendency.

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