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Not saying No

Posted on June 07, 2017 by

There was a minor kerfuffle on the STV leaders debate tonight.

The revelation that Kezia Dugdale may once have changed her mind about a second referendum on independence won’t have come as a particularly great shock to Wings readers, who just a week ago read a detailed account of the party’s countless U-turns and contradictions on the issue.

And what was notable was that Dugdale didn’t deny it. To anyone’s face, at least.

Because as soon as she’d scurried out of the STV studio and couldn’t be challenged by anyone who could look her in the eye, the Scottish Labour branch manager changed her tune rapidly.

It was nice to see Labour all reading from the same script (“desperate”, check, “lie”, check) for a change – even if it wasn’t clear what a party currently winning by a mile in the polls while Labour look set to come FOURTH would have to be desperate about. But a very obvious question leapt to the lips of the watching media.

Dugdale had THREE opportunities to directly deny what Nicola Sturgeon said. She took none of them. Let’s look at them in turn.



Dugdale says “I always said I would support anything you would do to build a relationship with Europe as long as it didn’t come at the expense of our relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom.”

Is that a denial? No, it’s not. “Our relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom” is a very flexible term which doesn’t necessarily mean “remaining in the Union”. What Dugdale said at the time was that she would consider, in her own words, ALL options:

“Labour is Scotland’s internationalist party. We believe in the pooling and sharing of resources and sovereignty. We believe in the redistribution of wealth and power, and we believe that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we ever could alone.

Those are the values which underpins our support for the European Union and the union of nations across the United Kingdom.

As a party, we will now go forward driven by those enduring values and apply them to our duty to do the best thing for Scotland and interests of working people within it.

On that basis, we will consider all options and do so in a democratic fashion in keeping with our party’s finest traditions.”

Pretty clear – Dugdale still wants to be in the EU and the UK, but accepts that has become no longer possible and all options to resolve the matter in the best way for Scotland must be considered. A second referendum is plainly one of the options.

And in case that still somehow wasn’t crystal clear, the Daily Record – not a noted SNP mouthpiece – explicitly quoted Dugdale’s only MP, Ian Murray, two days later saying that while Labour had previously opposed a second indyref, the Leave vote meant that “nothing is off the table”:

That would appear entirely in keeping with Nicola Sturgeon’s statement.



When Davidson asks if she’s heard correctly and if Dugdale had said she’d “drop Labour’s opposition to independence”, Dugdale mumbles “not true, not true”. And indeed that’s NOT true – opposition to a referendum and opposition to independence are not the same thing.

When Sturgeon clarifies that she was talking about a referendum, not independence itself, Dugdale doesn’t say anything to contradict her account of events.



At the end of the show, Ponsonby offers Dugdale a THIRD chance to deny the claim. She admits the conversation took place, but says:

“The idea that I would do anything other than protect the United Kingdom and fight for us to remain within the UK is an absolute nonsense.”

Is that a denial? No. Again, nobody had alleged that Dugdale would campaign FOR independence in a second referendum. The claim was that she’d said she wouldn’t object to one taking place, and nothing she said to Ponsonby disputes that fact.

(Although of course, we also know that she DID later suggest that the thought of her voting Yes a second time round wasn’t inconceivable.)


So: at no point during the debate did Kezia Dugdale contradict Nicola Sturgeon’s claim, although she had three separate opportunities to do so. Were it not true, it seems an astonishing thing to pass up those chances.

Had it been us and someone had told a lie about us during a hugely important live TV debate we’d have wrestled the mic physically out of Bernard Ponsonby’s hands if need be to set the record straight.

But Dugdale didn’t. She waited until the show was over and then tried to cover herself from behind the shield of social media where she wouldn’t have to answer any tricky questions. We’ve drawn our conclusions from that, and we’re sure viewers will too.

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    1. 07 06 17 02:56

      Not saying No | speymouth

    249 to “Not saying No”

    1. Richardinho says:

      I’m also amazed at the number of Labour party members who were apparently listening into the conversation!

    2. Lollysmum says:

      What a stupid woman? She’s just shown Scotland that she’s dishonest in the most public way imaginable on tv ffs.

      Didn’t think she could get any worse but she managed it in the debate. Time for a change of career.

    3. David says:

      This is potentially far more interesting:

    4. defo says:

      Oooft to the n.
      Is it actually possible to self inflict a coup de grâce ?

    5. defo says:

      If she did, and didn’t tell the FM she was recording…

      I don’t like popcorn.
      Are cheerios an ok substitute ?

    6. Auld Rock says:

      Flip, Flop, Flip, Flop. I hope that Nicola’s Civil Servant minder was taking notes.

      Auld Rock

    7. Turnip_ghost says:

      The one thing that struck me in that clip, besides the topic of digdales denying etc etc was Ruth and her immediate ability to see an opportunity to weaken her primary enemy, which anyone with any sense will realise is Labour and not the SNP, and go for it. I may not like it, but that was very well played.

    8. KathyT says:

      Ach, come on Stu, that last one was published on April Fools Day. 😀

    9. Bradford Millar says:

      Ruth Davidson has a cheek as well after she said it would be wrong for the UK government to block a 2nd Independence referendum .

    10. Arbroath1320 says:

      I’m sorry but after reading that there is only one thing I can say, with a little help of Mr. Reeves. 😉

    11. Auld Rock says:

      David, an interesting link, if Bronco Ruthie did record it I hope she informed Nicola as I believe that it’s an offence under the Telecoms Acts to record without informing, don’t remember what the penalty is.

      Auld Rock

    12. David says:


      That’s what I’m wondering – its legal to record a telephone call at home e.g. telemarketers but ONLY if you advise them that the call is being recorded.

      Between elected officials though? Very curious about the legal position.

    13. Arbroath1320 says:

      Whilst we are talking about unionist parties in a “wee bit o trouble.” Perhaps we should not overlook these wee beauties while we’re at it. 😉

      So there we have it folks.

      1) Labour in continuous turmoil over what wee Kez did or did not say.

      2) Wee Roothie under threat of legal action over her next MEP should Tories beat Pete Wishart on Thursday.

      3) Lib Dems in turmoil as their “star” chair of the Scottish Liberal Democrats’ general election campaign has been reported to Procurator Fiscal over 2016 election spending.

      Ach well as the dear oold BBC would say … nothing to see here move along now … oh look squirrels! 😀

    14. drawdeaddave says:

      Nicola is in trouble as Sarwar, McCluskey & Baillie were obviously in attendance when the call was made & can testify it didn’t happen, then again we could always check where the three stooges were that morning & dismiss their corroboration

    15. Gerry says:

      Bradford Millar thank you for your reminder…..must forward in on to Ruth the mooth …her re collective faculties need re-tuning methinks

    16. Swami Backverandah says:

      Scottish Labour is a colony of the Better Together Tories.

      Now they want independence from them.

      But the Tories will crush the saboteurs.

      Labour. Last in Scotland.

    17. defo says:

      Well, for starters, CCTV from the nearest Greggs should pinpoint JB’s whereabouts on the morning in question, AS might be seen in his swanky Range Rover on camera at his local recycling centre, with the days brown paper envelope pile, but as for MM, i’ve absolutely no idea who he is so…

    18. yesindyref2 says:

      Yeah, another important point is that apparently Dugdale discussed the private conversation in an interview in The Times in February. I haven’t checked that out, but there are some calling Sturgeon a “snake” for instance for talking about a private conversation, and I must admit that was my first thought as well.

      But if Dugdale brought it up first, then it’s no longer private.

    19. defo says:

      Under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA), it is not illegal for individuals to tape conversations provided the recording is for their own use.
      Recording or monitoring is only prohibited where some of the contents of the communication are made available to a third party. If a person intends to make the conversation available, they must get the consent of the person being recorded.

    20. defo says:

      The Telecommunications (Lawful Business Practice) (Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000

    21. yesindyref2 says:

      @Auld Rock
      I believe having checked this out a few years back (unless it’s changed) that either subject of a conversation can record it and though it would be a “courtesy” to inform the other party, there’s no legal requirement to.

      But if a third party records the conversation, that’s an offence.

    22. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Yes, Kez at a politician’s slippery best worst. Keeps on denying she said anything about supporting independence, which may well be true (despite at least one Tory newspaper article positing the opposite), but that’s not what Nicola was carefully saying, which was that Kez, in the immediate aftermath of the EUref at least, was willing to consider having another indyref.

      In a glorious moment of free-thinking. But obviously “got at” since.

      Trying to rewrite history in a pathetic attempt to out-yoon the Queen of Loyalism and Wee Willie One-Ref is a new low. But that’s the kind of jam you get into when you’re a mere puppet of your masters in London. More strings than Thunderbirds.


      As her fellow Unionist “leaders” =chortle= should well understand.

    23. K1 says:

      The look on Kezia’s face as Nicola reminds her of their conversation tells the story. She is clearly taken aback by Nicola making this part of their conversation public, she did not immediately deny it and seemed genuinely flustered by Nicola raising this valid point. It is fine for her tae change her mind but it’s not okay for her to tell the rest of us in Scotland that we can’t as a whole have a say after Brexit deal and to constantly attack the FM on her position, that she has been solid on since before the eu.

      Nicola just cut Kezia loose.

      Also think Nicola Sturgeon is Kezia’s Dugdale’s friend. Kezia doesn’t know that this is what you do when you care about someone, you tell them enough is enough when they are taking the piss out of you in public and acting as if you are their confidante and friend in private.

    24. donald anderson says:

      The poor woman is for and against everything. She was almost hysterical at times, screaming at Nicola, with hate and bile showing in hr contorted fave. Is she prescribed for Valium?

    25. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Kezia’s thoughts in the studio: “Fuck, did they record that phonecall?”

      Kezia after leaving the studio and being assured by her advisors that it wasn’t recorded: “DESPERATE LIES.”

    26. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Nicola Sturgeon is a trained lawyer, who is, from that training, well aware of the power of words and of how their meaning can be construed in various ways.

      (Look how the Craig Whyte trial came down to how one spoken sentence was construed).

      Kezia Dugdale is an over-promoted Scot Mid supervisor. I know which one I would believe in any: she said – no she said, battle of words.

      I did not see the entire programme, but, I did see the relevant clip later on the news, and it was obvious, Kezia went straight into her gabbling, 500-words per minute rant mode, which, at FMQs she always uses whenever Nicola has exposed one of her lies or pieces of misinformation.

    27. Macart says:

      Ayup. Ms Dugdale was given several opportunities and cannot say that wasn’t the case.

      Have to chuckle at the twitter spat and the characters involved. Each and every one a shining example of transparency and truth. 🙄

    28. Street Andrew says:

      Confucius he say:

      Never run when you can walk,

      Never walk when you can stand,

      Never stand when you can sit,

      Never sit when you can lie and

      Never Lie when you can tell the truth.

      Life is easier that way. For everybody.

    29. winifred mccartney says:

      Why can’t KD just be honest and say that Brexit did change everything – the problem is she says what she believes and then has her mind changed by careerists and liars like JB and AS who would sell their granny for london labour and to hell with the people they are meant to be serving. Their fast tweets say all you need to know about them. Never mind investigation or evidence just deny deny deny. I know who I believe.

    30. Big Jock says:

      Kezia kept saying she would always do what she could to protect the UK. But her job is to protect Scotland. Why does she want Scotland to take whatever shit England throws at us. When does Scotland get protected.

      She should have been called out on that.

    31. Graeme says:

      Kezia clearly can’t think on her feet, surely it would have been perfectly legitimate to say at that time she was carefully considering all options before deciding where she stood instead she denied saying it giving Davidson an open goal and branding herself a liar, nonetheless I thought when questioned by Davidson Nicola looked distinctly uncomfortable like she realised she just landed Kezia in it over a private conversation.

      I believe Nicola 100% but it could looked a bit sneaky to reveal the contents of a private conversation in a public debate and Davidson wasn’t slow to grasp the opportunity.

      My fear is how the media spin this it might not turn out well for Nicola

    32. Vestas says:

      She is venal, self-serving scum who is only interested in two things – herself and money.

      End of story for the red tory.

    33. Smallaxe says:

      Nana: Good Morning. weather is looking good so far. Thank You, for Your Links. Kettle’s on!

      Here is a link from me for our Young Voters.

      Use Your Vote!

      Peace to All

    34. One_Scot says:

      Dugdales and ‘Scottish Labours’ creditability is zero.

      The woman is a fraud.

    35. Jim says:

      Interesting piece on the taping of telephone conversations.

      Miss Davidson is walking on shifting sands by taping the conversation with a MSP as Senior as the FM herself without apparent consent:

    36. Dorothy Devine says:

      The thing which worries me more than anything is the MSMs ability to make this GE a two horse race ‘twixt May and Corbyn.

      Right now that is how it looks and folk may follow that line like sheep.

    37. Roger Hyam says:

      Can’t we just ask Putin for the tapes?

    38. Nana says:

      Good morning Smallaxe. Bit dull here,looks like being another rainy day.

      A few more links for later

      Eric Joyce here talking about the election and a Brexit fallout prediction, around 15mins in

    39. Sinky says:

      I wonder why the BBC and Edinburgh’s daily paper have not reported on Lib Dem campaign Manager Cole Hamilton being reported to procurator fiscal over his alleged 2016 campaign expenses fraud.

    40. Effijy says:

      It’s all this Flipping that makes Kez a Flop!

      Prediction for Scottish Seats-

      SNP 48

      Toxic Tory English Glory 6

      Fibbing Dementedcrats 4

      SLab couldn’t run a Tram Seevice 1

      Kez made lady Kez of get her out of here and into the Lords.

      Anus Sarwar to take over a SLab leader
      then decides that he would rather stick
      With Dentistry, as both jobs are like pulling teeth.

    41. Jim says:

      Roger Hyam says:
      7 June, 2017 at 7:43 am

      Can’t we just ask Putin for the tapes?
      I think Miss Davidson should be more worried when Police Scotland ask her for the tape she recorded of a conversation with a head of Government!

      Putin her foot in it, chortle, chortle!

    42. starlaw says:

      Kezia’s salary comes from London. Head office dictates her every move.

    43. Brian McHugh says:

      To be honest, I couldn’t care less what Kezia and the FM spoke about in a private call. No one above has noted the final comment from Kez, which was save the UK union at all costs, no matter how many jobs lost “Hundreds of thousands”, corrected by Kezia herself, from “tens of thousands” noted by Nicola at the start of the clip.

      Kezia’s message, “Vote Labour and lose your job for a pointless ideology.”

      Vote SNP, there is no other sane option.

    44. Orri says:

      There’re clues all over Dugdale’s reply that show Sturgeon’s telling the truth.

      It’s all about Labour and nothing about her own personal opinion which at the point of hearing the result and not knowing how the public might react was to advocate a withdrawal of her parties opposition to a second referendum.

      This is indirectly related to the 2 child cap. It’s also related to some of the accusations against Assange. The attempt at forcing Sturgeon to concede a generational gap between holding independence referenda is the same as assuming that once consent has been given in marriage or between partners it can’t be revoked. There are many things wrong with the legislation but at least they got the bit about implied consent not existing right.

    45. Calum McKay says:

      I suspect given the referendum vote in Scotland and in England last June that Dugdale was speaking from the heart, disturbed and upset at the result in England, which ultimately sealed Scotland’s fate.

      Roll forward with Dugdale and many personal U turns, contradictions, unclear stances, misinformation, mistakes and getting flummexed during interviews, Dugdale’s views or opinions change as fast as the weather.

      Couple this with differing opinions at any one time of members in her party and you see a party split. Split by those who see tory rule of Scotland from London preferable to independence and those who would prefer self rule over London rule.

      Her own party leader Corbyn, remember Dugdale is the branch party leader, has repeatedly said a referendum on Scotland’s future is fine by him. When he makes these statement there is a clamour from some in the branch party that Corbyn steps down / resigns and or he has misspoken and their policy is clear.

      There is that word ‘clear’ again.

      Corbyn is not a fool, he knows exactly what he is saying when he says a referendum is ‘fine by him’, why would he hold opposing views on the relationships Scotland hold and Ireland holds,with England? Especially as Scotland position has come about through the ballot box.

      Frankly labour are torn over independence, Dugdale is merely a manifestation of that position.

      Are we clear on that?

    46. Achnababan says:

      One thought — did Nicola drop the bombshell as a deliberate measure to undermine Dugdale at this election in the hope she will stand down following electoral disaster and pave the way for a less Blairite leader of SLAB to takeover? A pro-Corbyn and ‘not so implacably set against a 2nd referendum’ sort of leader?

    47. Valerie says:

      Of course that was a deliberate move by Nicola, she is incredibly disciplined, even the cool delivery was calculated.

      Within minutes, Twitter had most of those quotes up, so even if Kez denies, there is enough confusion around it, and Slab are confused anyway.

      If you support Slab, there is NO point voting for Blairites here, who will work against SNP, and side with Tories down in London.

      Vote SNP tomorrow.

    48. Snode1965 says:

      Two weeks ago at Holyrood, Dugdale pleaded the case to halt personal attacks in Scottish politics.
      This week Dugdale, in the Scottish press, wrote an aggressive personal attack on Nicola Sturgeon.
      Last night was payback…

    49. Muscleguy says:

      @Street Andrew

      Is that why Confucius is always portrayed as a non thin individual? Always doing the easy thing physically.

      Sitting when you can stand knackers your hips and knees. The epidemiology is clear. And I suppose I COULD walk instead of my runs. But they would take an awful lot longer, I wouldn’t deep breathe enough to keep fluid out of my lungs (I’m slightly asthmatic) and I wouldn’t get anywhere near as aerobically fit.

      If oor Kez is reading that version of Confucius explains a lot 😉

    50. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Snode1965 at 9.04

      My thoughts exactly

    51. Ian McCubbin says:

      Nicola Sturgeon would not make a claim like she did without a proveable backup.
      Kezia Dugdale after the show had so many Twitter responses giving copies of all of above and more examples of what she said and more.i think she has now lies so much she cannot back track.
      A young woman who is now way out of her depth. I think Scottish Labour wil be looking for another leader soon.

    52. jfngw says:

      The talking is almost over and the people of Scotland must decide the MP from which party will best look after the interests of Scotland.

      Conservatives – they have shown in the last seven years how they despise the most deprived by advocating tax cuts for the rich and cuts for the poor. There claim that they will protect the fishing industry is also bogus, it was the Tories that didn’t protect it the first time round.

      Labour – This is a party that is still split, most don’t agree with their leader. The manifesto produced by the Scottish branch is not supported by the head office, which one will be implemented? They had sixty years prior to 2015 to protect Scotland’s interests, what happened to Scottish industries in that period.

      LibDem – a party that would once again jump into bed with the Tories, they cannot be trusted. After all they still have a proven liar representing them in Orkney & Shetland.

      Greens – a protest vote at the GE, they have no realistic chance of taking any seats in Scotland. A vote for them is now literary as good as voting Tory.

      UKIP – come on, you need to be brain dead to vote for this bunch.

      Tis only leaves the SNP as the only viable voice of Scotland at Westminster. On Thursday vote SNP, for your children’s future if not your own.

    53. defo says:

      I’ve yet to see a smiling jogger Mustleguy 🙂
      What’s the hurry ?

    54. Breeks says:

      Still can’t see the debate…

      However I am still at a loss to reconcile this position the Unionists have adopted where they pronounce themselves resolute to the last man to prevent a second referendum happening. They cannot prevent it happening. Has nobody told them???

      God forbid the Tories routed the SNP at Westminster, which they won’t, but even suppose they did, nothing changes at Holyrood where the SNP government already has its mandate to hold a referendum, has it ratified by the electorate, and formally approved by the Scottish Parliament.

      Its like the Unionists are building up the barricades to a prestigious height to keep out the SNP, but in true Tom and Jerry tradition, they are about to turn around and see Nicola already standing behind them. I know Unionists aren’t always the brightest, but this seems such a forlorn position to adopt, I worry that I must be missing some significant detail.

      Is it perhaps preparatory groundwork to discredit the legitimacy of the referendum as a precursor to rejecting its result? If that’s the strategy, it too seems doomed by inevitable failure.

      Unionism seems like a heavyweight boxer who has bottled the fight, abandons his training, takes off his gloves, and studies the rules of boxing of find some obscure technicality which can still win him the fight without stepping in to the ring.

    55. Dr Jim says:

      Maybe if Labour hadn’t employed a Daily Mail rabid Tory as their advisor they might have coherent strategies for combating the Tories instead of an advisor who feeds them bad advice when telling the truth is really always an easier way to go

      Tell one lie and you have to keep telling bigger ones to cover up

      It would have been a lot easier for Dugdale to have said she did say it because she was so angry with the Tories for making the mess but on reflection that was a knee jerk reaction and thought differently later (situation defused)

      Now what they’ve got themselves into is “Liegate” so that was pretty stupid wasn’t it

    56. Jim says:

      It’s all rubbish anyway; nobody is going to stop a second referendum on Independence, if you note, they all say, “We are opposed to a second referendum”.

      Nobody has come out and had the balls to say, ‘we will block a second referendum’, that would be political suicide and Dugdale et al know this.

      She cannot stop her members or MSPs voting for Independence as she says, 30% did in the first referendum but if she can stop them campaigning it is maybe time for them to leave the darkness of SLabour and either join the SNP or stand as an independent.

    57. Jim says:

      Krishnan Guru-Murthy tweeting about the Ruthgate telephone recording of our First Minister so hopefully this will make channel 4 news at least.

      Ruth must be bricking it at the thought of a chap on the door from Police Scotland as she has now deleted the tweet but people have evidence!

    58. Jim says:

      This Clown:

      “I think being on speakerphone isn’t covered by regs about recording phone conversation. She’s not attached recording device to phone system.”

      How in the fuck does it matter what method you used to record phone conversations containing possible sensitive information!

    59. Macart says:

      Just to be clear to any opposition reading.

      For years the SNP and their support have been on the recieving end of some of the most appalling flak that both their opposition and the media could either concoct or dredge up. They’ve had their personal lives and tragedies gone over with a microscope and every minor flaw given prime time spotlight.

      They’ve sat on countless broadcasts and been outnumbered and outgunned. They’ve been set up and stitched up countless times. They and their supporters have been intimidated, lied to, lied about, misrepresented and demonised in broadcasts and column inches beyond count and all with no redress. The same opposition feeling perfectly safe in the knowledge that they would face nowhere near the same level of scrutiny.

      The current SG took it all and kept coming back for more, because they were asked to.

      They’ve passed every test at the ballot across three different sets of electoral rules and to date, have done it with style at every time of asking. They’ve done it the hard way.

      Which is, y’know, no mean feat when some bastard keeps changing those rules every other fucking day, mainly because the old ones they concocted to stop the SNP didn’t work.

      People have been asking them to take the kid gloves off for some considerable time. To fight back and make it loud and public. To deliberately humiliate their opposition the way their opposition has attempted to humiliate them and their support on a daily basis for years.

      As far as I can see, they still haven’t done any of that.

      Something to bear in mind.

    60. archieologist says:

      I think Dugdale has lost the plot. She did’nt come over as “passionate”as Labour spinners would have us believe but appeared hysterical in her exchanges with the other party leaders.
      She has flip flopped all over the place in her support for Corbyn and so anything she says on Indy Ref2 has to be treated with scepticism.
      I don’t think that she is leadership material and , Labour will soon be looking for a new branch manager.

    61. chris kilby says:

      The theatrical, mock-appalled face Kezia pulled when Ruth Davidson challenged her on this was hilarious. Still more convincing than anything that ever comes out of her mooth, mind.

    62. Sinky says:

      Marcia says:

      Given the Tory problems this should be on UK National news outlets.

      Labour pulling out all the steps for Ian Murray with half page advert in Edinburgh Evening News from A Darling. Several letters in local press from local Labourites attacking SNP in Ed South and Joanna Cherry but no letters published pointing out Ian Murray’s voting record / backstabbing of Jeremy Corbyn / Labour record on education etc.

    63. Flower of Scotland says:

      SKY saying that there is no evidence of these phone calls and conversations and that Kezia says Nicola is lying.

      National seems to think that this has done harm to FM Nicola.

      THEY hate it when SNP gets the gloves off!

    64. Robbo says:

      Everyone will be glad to know the PM is a right tearaway!

      “Oh, goodness me. Well, I suppose… gosh. Do you know, I’m not quite sure. I can’t think what the naughtiest thing,” she said.

      When pushed the PM revealed the darkest moment of her childhood.

      “Well, nobody is ever perfectly behaved, are they? I mean, you know, there are times when… I have to confess, when me and my friend, sort of, used to run through the fields of wheat, the farmers weren’t too pleased about that,” she said.

      My god we’re in for it now .

    65. Macart says:

      @Flower of Scotland

      Sky said that?


    66. Achnababan says:

      What Macart says (at 10.04AM)

    67. chris kilby says:

      ‘O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!’

      Poor Kez. Deceiving only herself.

      As for the SNP “kid gloves” thing. I think we caught just a tantalising wee glimpse last night of just what Nicola Sturgeon is capable of when she slips those kid gloves off just for a second. And it was as devastating as it was terrifying. For Kez and Ruth, I mean.

      Don’t make her angry. You wouldn’t like her when she’s angry. I, on the other hand, was clapping and honking like a seal!

    68. Proud Cybernat says:

      Maybe Nicola can sort this mess with Dugdale over a quiet drink?

    69. Proud Cybernat says:

      Just imagine if Ian Murray holds onto his WM seat and his red Tory seat gives May a majority in WM.

      VOTE SNP – End Tory Rule

    70. Bob Mack says:

      The only conversation that is private is where one party requests that it is kept private and the other agrees. Otherwise there is no agreement. I always assured my client group that anything said to me would remain confidential unless it had a bearing on other events.

      Last night Nicola took off the gloves. For months we have been reading about Dugdale pussy footing around an issue of which side to back for independence,and deciding that most votes might come to Labour by opposing indy2. It was a decision based on numbers without thought of principles. She reaped what she sowed.

      More faces than a rubic cube, all of them smarting this morning from the skelp she took last night. So urgent is the situation ,she was on Sky news first thing this morning to try and salvage some credibility for herself from a friendly broadcaster.

      Some advice Kezia. Never lie to yourself. You cannot preserve integrity by deceiving yourself first and foremost.

    71. PhilM says:

      Curious thought just came to me…anyone heard anything of Liam Fox lately…was another vote on foxhunting a coded message?

    72. Sinky says:

      Very one sided report from James Mathews on Sky TV News on Phonegate and no mention of Alex Cole Hamilton’s election expenses scandal.

    73. Robert Graham says:

      on the balance of probability i find it very hard to believe anything Kezia says , as the kezia fact check shows i have lost count of how my wee lies she has told a confused individual .

    74. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Flower of Scotland at 10.31

      I can find nothing in the National to suggest “they think that this has done harm to FM Nicola”.
      Did you just make that up?

    75. Legerwood says:

      It looks as if Ms Sturgeon got two for the price of one last night. Ms Davidson’s unforced and damning admission about recording phonecalls. And Ms Dugdale about not blocking indyref2 in secret talks with the FM which she, Ms Dugdale, subsequently revealed had taken place when interviewed by a journalist.

      On so many levels and is so many ways the pair of them were well and truly revealed for what they are.

    76. Proud Cybernat says:

      @ Jim (9:57am)

      Ruth Davidson has said she will not respect a 50% mandate for a 2nd IndyRef:

      “This is a staggering thing to say when you remember it comes from the representative of the party expected to form the next UK government. All the more so when that same UK Government may find itself with uncontested power despite polling less in percentage terms than the SNP.

      What Davidson is in fact saying is that Scottish democracy is worthless. Scottish votes somehow do not count unless Davidson says they do. Davidson wants Scottish voters to send a message to Nicola Sturgeon … but only the message Davidson dictates.” – GA Ponsonby, From:

    77. Brian Powell says:

      Does SKY have evidence there was no evidence of the phone calls? Kenny Farqharson says there is.

    78. Dr Jim says:

      In this knockabout world of showbiz politics where we’re all pressed to decide on who should come out the winner of Britains got Politics no matter the Crapness of silly things like policies It’s the singer not the song that’s most important, because we all know the song is the same rehashed drivel Eurovision failure it’s always been so that’s why I’m amazed at the ineptitude of the Tories for fielding a cabaret turn (Theresa May) who cannae sing solo without the full support of her own orchestra and a vocal changing microphone

      Jeremy Corbyn might be more in the Bob Dylan moaning style but at least he has verses and choruses in his song while Theresa May only has the title of one

      Up here in Scotchland where we don’t really get a vote in Britains got Eurovison politics We’ve got Ruth Davidsons song which is the same as Theresa Mays song only with a backing band of the Orange Lodge some rugby players and convicted ex violent criminals and racists bellowing at us pretty much out of tune so we turn the sound down immediately

      Kezia Dugdale with her song chooses an obscure Indian sounding song in a high pitched whiny nasal singing voice that nobody can really turn their head the right way to avoid so she gets switched off

      So there we have it a clear winner of Britains got more talented Eurovision politics singers and who would not be surprised it’s our own Scotchland version of a Disney version of Lulu, Nicola Sturgeon and her backing band the Chirpy Chirpy Tweet Tweets

      A good choon well sung

    79. Cageybee says:

      O/T but just got a reply from the The Electoral Commission as per the lies by Tories on QT and it seems they dodged it :-

      Thank you for your email to the Electoral Commission regarding a BBC Question Time programme and comments that were made on that programme.

      The Electoral Commission is the independent body which oversees elections and regulates political finance in the UK. This includes enabling the delivery of free and fair elections and referendums and regulating political finance. The Electoral Commission has no regulatory remit when it comes to what one politician says about another politician.

      As your email relates to impartiality and a BBC programme, you are advised to raise your issue with the BBC directly. It could however be that your issue needs to be raised with Ofcom. There is more information on how to raise a concern to do with a BBC programme here:

      Kind regards,

      Public Information Team
      The Electoral Commission

    80. Sinky says:

      Just watched BBC TV News … no mention of Cole Hamilton election expenses reported to Fiscal by police. He’s the Scottish Lib Dem election campaign manager FFS.

    81. jfngw says:

      If Corbyn became PM a huge swath of his party are still Blairites, the likelihood of any of his major proposals happening can only be slight. Even with a small Labour majority the make-up of WM will still effectively be Tory.

      There seems to be a lot of quiet Labour MP’s who basically disagree with Corbyn, what are they going to do if he becomes PM. I suspect Scotland is not high on their agenda.

    82. Radio Scotland mentioned Cole-Hamilton in a news report this am. It is odd how these political misdemeanours vanish from the media.

    83. Robert Graham says:

      i never watched last nights debate frankly i am getting more than a bit fed up with this usual tripe , the three to one assault constantly covering reserved issues , is boring .
      The matter of education is raised in every one of these debates and the SNP really need to make this clearer .
      Please feel free to correct me if i am mistaken .The government at Holyrood do not directly employ Teachers ,the local authorities employ teachers .Holyrood sets the curriculum they fund local authorities to enact said curriculum , they have recently made funds available directly to head teachers by passing local councils who cant be trusted to use available money for the purpose intended, Labour councils propped up by Tories , these PIZA tests are four years out of date but are continually used as a stick to beat the SNP, The correct information is not out there , and cant be explained by a bloody soundbite .but the real story has too, via the SNP be made public .

    84. Clapper57 says:

      Loved the guy in the audience last night at Scottish leaders debate speculating on HIS perception of there being an SNP bias in the audience….he should have left there ….however he didn’t….he proceeded to then slate individually all of the leaders there and then praise Ruth…..thus negating his whole point and in turn amplifying his OWN BIAS….Tories eh.

    85. Clapper57 says:

      Loved the guy in the audience last night at Scottish leaders debate speculating on HIS perception of there being an SNP bias in the audience….he should have left it there ….however he didn’t….he proceeded to then slate individually all of the leaders there and then praise Ruth…..thus negating his whole point and in turn amplifying his OWN BIAS….Tories eh.

    86. Clapper57 says:

      My previous post “.he should have left there “…..should have read ‘he should have left it there’

    87. Dorothy Devine says:

      What happened to Patrick Harvie? Is he not considered a ‘leader’?

      Surely if Oor Wullie is allowed to appear and treat us all to his bon mots then Mr Harvie should be there for balance ?

    88. jfngw says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      It is strange as Harvey and Sturgeon are the only two actual leaders of a party, the other three are not leaders of the WM party as the ‘Scottish’ in their name is purely cosmetic, they are sub group leaders.

    89. Breeks says:

      jfngw says:
      7 June, 2017 at 11:48 am
      “…… I suspect Scotland is not high on their agenda.”

      Suits me. If Jeremy the democrat agrees to recognise ScotRef and devolves a slice or two of broadcasting beforehand, then fine. He can stand back and stay out of the way. Sounds ambitious, but all it actually asks of Mr Corbyn is to show a little respect for our democracy.

      If Labour was to engage fully, and sadly I think it would have to, we’d spend the next 18 months prevaricating over a federal UK which was simply never going to happen.

      I’m quietly optimistic this Labour resurgence will reconquer a little territory lost to the Tories in the Council Elections, but hopefully not raise any awkward questions about the SNP’s overall grip in Scotland.

      As for England? Well, happy days if it’s a hung parliament with the SNP king makers. Best result for Scotland by a mile, with the important caveat that the SNP then has a defining roll to play in the UK’s Brexit which the SNP doesn’t want.

      Second best result is a Tory win, but with a skin of the teeth majority; stuck carrying the can for a Brexit fiasco for which they have nobody to blame but themselves, but stripped of all pretence that the Brits are bedecked in woad and banging on their shields in frenzied support behind them. That’s the second best result for Scotland alone by the way, a clear battle between Scotland and Mordor, but it’s a total disaster for England.

      The third best result for Scotland, but I think the best result for England, is a Corbyn win, and some crafty footwork to win some kind of Stay of Execution for Brexit. Sadly for England, I just cannot see that happening however. It’s very difficult to read how far the “Lets build a big Theresa May on the cliffs of Dover” mentality extends into the normally sensible parts of England. I rather suspect a Labour government may not be able to prevent Brexit happening to England, however it could make a truly spectacular difference to the chances of England getting back in to the EU a few years down the line once it comes to its senses.

      It sounds a bit “holier than thou”, but IF England, and perhaps a Corbyn government was to bite the bullet and take a holistic view of the next 20 to 40 years, they might begin to recognise that an Independent Scotland, in Europe, yet also with unique trading links between England and Europe might actually be a very worthwhile and useful commodity to have – from the English perspective too, not just Scotland’s point of view. Effectively, England could have a friend and reliable go-between on the inside. Maybe. Sadly, for the present, and certainly immediate future, the Westminster parties neither seem brave enough to think the unthinkable, nor are they strong on progressive foresight.

      The big fly in the ointment about the previous paragraph is the polling data. For as long as another No verdict in an independence referendum remains a credible possibility, I think we can forget any preambles of agreements between an Indy Scotland and an Outy England. Whoever reigns in Westminster will be obliged to fight for the Union… openly at least. But when we get behind closed doors…

    90. Desimond says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      The Green were not invited as they are only contesting 3 seats – that was the blurb last night…despite the talk being all about Devolved matters etc

    91. Sinky says:

      Still no mention of Alex Cole Hamilton being reported to fiscal by police over his election expenses scandal on web site.

      He’s an Edinburgh MSP and Lib Dems Scottish election organiser FFS

    92. Jack Murphy says:

      Scottish Parliament TV.
      Proceedings scheduled to start in Chamber at 1:30pm TODAY.
      Direct link:

    93. Gerry says:

      @sinky – A Cole Hamilton was reported to the fiscal this morning.

      FMQs should be good today. Real tell for me last night was Davidson saying that she recorded a call from NS the day after the EUref. Could be fur flying in Holyrood in 10 minutes.
      Link to FMQs

    94. mike d says:

      O/t interesting piece in Iscot magazine about how Scotland is being/still being played by the deep state,mi5 etc.

    95. Legerwood says:

      Robert Graham @ 11.58
      Jon Snow certainly had a go at the FM last night on Education in an interview in which he showed himself woefully ill-informed on several issues. The last PISA tests were held in 2015 and the results published in 2016. If you look at the PISA results from 2003 onwards – see below – it shows an interesting picture.

      The results for Reading and Maths fell significantly between 2003-06 then more or less stabilised since then. Science has remained stable until the last series of tests in 2015 when there is a drop. The latest scores are still above average but only just.

      However, there is a problem with these tests and the way they are used, or abused, by politicians. Over the last 3-4 years there has been increasing criticism of them. Reacting to PISA scores can lead to changes being made to educational policies that are nothing more than teaching to the test – on steroids. For example, from this long article in TES in 2016

      “”And while countries like Germany and Japan may have changed education policy because of information from international surveys, there also seems to have been a shift to the point where governments are starting to see the survey ranking as an end in itself, as a key policy goal.
      “”Last year, Nicky Morgan, then education secretary, made an ambitious pre-election pledge that England would reach the Pisa top five by 2020.

      “”In Wales, the government is intent on “embedding Pisa skills in Welsh education” and has enlisted Schleicher to help explain to its teachers why Pisa is “so important” and how “GCSEs and the curriculum in Wales” are being changed to test “Pisa Skills”. In this case, Pisa has crossed the line between simply measuring school performance and actually determining what is taught there.””

      The scores themselves are as much the result of a computer algorithm than the result of a pupil putting pen to paper – from the same article:
      “”Just as hardly anyone really understands the Google algorithm, how many teachers, politicians, educationalists or policymakers genuinely understand how Pisa works?

      “”Do teachers realise, for example, that many of the test scores used to calculate Pisa rankings are not from real pupils answering questions, but from a computer running a statistical programme to work out what the probable answer of a pupil who didn’t actually take the test would have been?””

      For a fuller and more detailed picture of Scottish Schools including information gathered during the PISA process that is never reported see the 2015 OECD report on Scottish Schools: ‘Improving Schools in Scotland’ It has many positives to say about Scottish Schools and gives a more rounded picture than a bald score.
      PISA Score Reading Maths Science
      2003 516 524 514
      2006 499 506 515
      2009 500 499 514
      2012 506 498 513
      2015 493 491 497

    96. Ian says:

      All this largely revolves around what exactly constitutes a reason to call a referendum. What exactly was the mandate of Cameron to call the Brexit ref? Political infighting within his own party as far as I can tell. Getting 37% of the votes on a voter turnout of 66% seems pretty weak and far too arbitrary to rely on. Yet it happened.

      There needs to be a clear definition of the circumstances that determine when a referendum can be called. That would include calling a second one if it was clear that bare faced lies formed a significant part of the first one, and without real consequences to form a barrier to shady practices, that’s bound to continue to happen. Banning liars from holding office would be a reasonable start.

      In regards to this point, it’s strange that people who lie in court will get charged as such and suffer consequences but politicians by and large get away with lies (misunderstandings, untruths etc) that too often have broad and massive consequences for the general population, yet don’t face any legal consequences.

      They even get away with theft (misunderstanding, confusion etc) by simply paying back money they falsely claimed as an expense.

      It’s tedious hearing so many politicians give their untrustworthy biases when they come from a group that ranks bottom in terms of trust within the general public.

      Maybe Estate Agents should determine if and when a referendum can take place?

    97. Swami Backverandah says:


      this is Dugdale’s cue to demand Wings be shut down.

    98. Robert Graham says:

      Oh dear sit down Kezia oops, and that’s from a Labour presiding officer, oh dear.Tut Tut , she now continues to rubbish our health service, aye Kezia we are more confused than you are dear, your continued failure to attack the Tory party has not gone unnoticed. Eh Patrick Harvey not exactly doing his parties chances a service by having a go at Nicola Sturgeon, again missing the Tory party .

    99. Chick McGregor says:


      Yeah, I’ve highlighted the plummeting Pisa scores under the Unionist administration in Holyrood and the stabilization under the SNP since 2007 here before.

      The most recent science result is disappointing but not surprising. The tendency for heads to adopt managerial behavior and to respond to target scores has, IMO, resulted in less emphasis on the ‘harder’ subjects like physics and maths.

      All performance record comparison lists should be advisory and not be used to potentially beat up/reward heads and teachers, especially if that can influence their curricular emphasis choices.

    100. Bob Mack says:

      Nicola just have a masterclass in destroying the opposition at FMQ’s.
      Gloves are now definitely off.

    101. Mary miles says:

      Hello from Tassie

      Will pray for a great result for SNP in tomorrow’s GE and hope that the Conservatives arrogance gets a terrific dent. Hope everything goes well for Scotland and takes us closer to inevitable independence!

      Thank God for Nicola!

      Love to all fighting for independence. Keep the saltires flying!

      Mary Miles

    102. Robert Graham says:

      bob mack -agreed shes playing a blinder , Patrick Harvey might be better reigning in his speech and his criticism of Nicola if he wants to help his party tomorrow , just an observation .

    103. gus1940 says:

      Last week following May having been jeered and laughed at during the QT ‘debate’ I commented that the BBC seemed to have been impressed and at FMQs when Nicola was speaking had ramped up the background sound feed from the chamber highlighting the unruly deskslapping and general heckling form the opposition benches.

      I am currently watching today’s FMQs and they seem to be doing the same thing again.

      I am not an expert re the sound feeds from the chamber but it is my understanding that the only control the Presiding officer has is over which individual Minister’s/MSP’s is switched on which must mean that the balance of sound from the chamber is under the control of the broadcasters who just happen to be our old pals at the BBC.

      When is somebody going to put forward a motion to ban deskslapping in the chamber – it is so uncouth.

    104. gerry parker says:

      Bob Mack,
      Aye, they all got a good spankin’ today.

    105. gus1940 says:

      Does anybody know if any of the bookies are offering odds on the survival of May as PM following the GE whether or not the Tories have a majority more or less than before or no majority at all.

      My feeling is that no matter what the result is she is toast as PM and cannot survive much longer as PM.

    106. Capella says:

      Watched FMQs on Scottish Parliament TV, which doesn’t suffer from BBC voice overs, nor changes in volume (as far as i can detect).
      Nicola was brilliant and clinically demolished the poor attempts at arguments by the opposition parties. She is so far ahead of the others that it really defies belief that the Tories would make gains tomorrow.

      But, I suppose with the help of the media they might. Let’s hope the SNP retain their massive lead in votes and seats and send a message to Theresa May. “Not in our name.”

    107. Les Wilson says:

      Came across this, something our that might make our fishermen
      think a bit more on who they might vote for.

    108. Jack Murphy says:

      Oh dear.I must keep up with events dear boy,events.
      The Telegraph. 2016:
      “Ruth Davidson has said that she would advise the next Prime Minister not to block a request by Nicola Sturgeon for a second independence referendum in the wake of the vote for Brexit….”. 🙂

    109. admiral says:


      I recall reading somewhere that the PISA scores are not necessarily comparable country to country, because of the way each country selects the student information to be put forward. In some cases, selection is truly random, in others countries tend to put forward their better-performing students. I belive the Scottish selection is based on random selection.

    110. Dan Huil says:

      @Mary Miles

      Tassie is Tasmania? Could’ve sworn it was just ootside Auchtermuchty.

      Thanks for the good wishes from down under, Mary.

    111. Weechid says:

      How can it have been a “bombshell” or be considered a “private conversation” if Dugdale had already revealed the events to the press?

    112. yesindyref2 says:

      So, my wife who is non-political used to quite like May, but took a real turn against her when she heard that May was going to allow ivory imports or something. The poor elephants. She wouldn’t vote Tory anyway, but it shows how little things can be important to your non-politicos.

    113. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Legerwood @ 13:28,

      One wonders what teachers themselves think about these PISA tests and the politicians (not least opposition ones) and the media getting all exercised over them. “Teaching to the test” is a curse, a blight on education, and we all know it.

      It’s not as if teaching happens in some kind of social vacuum anyway. If kids are coming to school hungry and neglected, for example, how can they be expected to learn effectively?

      One commends Nicola for her very obvious sincerity over teaching, but is there not far too much politicisation of the matter these days? Do politicians (of all parties) or journalists know more about the subject than the professionals?

      I worry that one of the reasons that the opposition (including the BBC) are focussing so heavily on irrelevant devolved matters such as education in the current UK election campaign is because they know full well that dealing with it is a Sisyphean task that can never be fully accomplished, irrespective of who tackles it. (See the record of the former Lab-Lib coalition, for example, which the media carefully avoid.)

      I think we seriously need as a society to reflect on what is the appropriate role for the FM and the SG in all of this, as also local authorities who have the primary responsibility for oversight and management, and indeed individual head teachers themselves.

      Loading the entire onus onto Nicola, for all her evident goodwill, is a hollow travesty.

    114. Proud Cybernat says:

      “I think we seriously need as a society to reflect on what is the appropriate role for the FM and the SG in all of this, as also local authorities who have the primary responsibility for oversight and management…”

      Especially given that the majority of LAs in Scotland are anti-SNP and would do anything to damage the SNP including damaging children’s education in order to scream “SNP Bad”. No wonder the SNP had to by-pass LAs with the extra school funding, handing it directly to the schools since the LAs were not passing the ring-fenced money on to them.

      And Scotland votes for these shysters? Truly unbelievable! Wake up Scotland. SNP are the good guys here.

    115. Proud Cybernat says:

      Celebration time…

    116. Scott says:

      Sorry OT.
      The cat has been let out of the bag now mind you we have always know this.

    117. galamcennalath says:

      In a true democracy we would have proportional representation and all sorts of opinion could find a place with multiple parties.

      An issue with the UK, with its archaic FPTP system, is it has made smaller parties unviable and reduced the contest to two large ones.

      There is logic, if not morality, in there being a narrow focus screw everyone else but me party for mean self centred people. The problem with the UK is that such a political grouping has somehow managed to become one of the big two!

    118. Legerwood says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 3.06

      Sometimes, maybe often, the teachers join the critics in order to further their own agenda eg if there is a pay claim in the offing. Teachers are also conservative, small ‘c’, and dislike change such as the CfE. They were comfortable with the old Standard Grades. The OECD report I mentioned commented that newer teachers entering the profession were better at dealing with CfE than older more experience teachers who were set in their ways.

      As to Local Authorities and their role in education I think it needs to be taken out of their hands altogether. As often as not their actions, or inaction, stymied the policies that the Government of the day is trying to put in place and they do so for political reasons. For example, payments direct to teachers to help close the attainment gap. Just before the local elections, North Lanarkshire Council tried to top slice the money from the SG that was supposed to go directly to school heads. After the election the same Council put 190 classroom assistants on notice that they were going to lose their jobs.

      They would sacrifice their grannies let alone children if they thought there was a political point to be scored.

      The SG really has to take the bull by the horns on this one and set out all that they are doing and accomplishing eg the attainment gap is closing.

    119. Jack Murphy says:

      Scottish Parliament TV.
      Now Archived,and available to view at Scottish Parliament TV YouTube channel:

    120. Bob p says:

      3.04pm yesindyref2. “My wife used to quite like may ” fgs that’s grounds for a divorce lol.

    121. Dr Jim says:

      Although all three of the political parties at Holyrood who have young women leaders, Dugdale and Davidson maybe should reflect on the fact that Nicola Sturgeon was doing politics when they were playing with crayons in Primary school

      The FM is more than a little ahead of them and that’s why she doesn’t need a script

    122. Cactus says:

      Aff topic:

      Here’s a modern version of Spitting Image…

      Check the cast out and don’t be a Tory tomorrow.

      Vote Scottish 😉

    123. Robert Graham says:

      probably going to upset a few folk , anyone ever listened to some teachers talking and arguing , i used to leave some Parents Nights wondering where the f/k they got some of these people from , simple things , some of them getting confused as to who your child was , (ie)speaking about another parents child , but actually trying to have a conversation with an normal Adult face to face sometimes was a very trying time , the best ones i found were people who before teaching had a job in the real world others i thought f/k me they are out untended , maybe it reminded me of my own school days and frankly loony teachers , some were really good and made lessons interesting , others well probably better suited to crowd control because the class wouldn’t listen to them so mayhem was the best description .

    124. mike d says:

      Robert graham. That takes me back to my daughters parent school nights lol

    125. Ghillie says:

      K1 @ 3.18am Spot on.

      Kezia had a chance to be honest and genuine.

      And could have then, calmly explained that she did indeed say that because she was so shocked and distressed by the Brexit vote.

      BUT on reflection, realised that her love of the union was far greater than any concerns for Scotland’s future.

      What Kezia Dugdale did next was cowardly.

    126. mike d says:

      And with the amount of whacky baccy those teachers smoked. I ain’t surprised they were even in this world lol.

    127. Thepnr says:

      Last nights debate though I haven’t seen it might have changed everything so close the election from what I’m reading.

      Most people don’t like those that bawl and shout like Ruthie does nor do they like those that are caught out in lies and then claim that “it was the other person lying” like Kezia did.

      Now most folk won’t have seen that claim by Dugdale that the FM was lying but the damage was already done, I can imaging many sitting watching with open mouths.

      Nicola Sturgeon is an absolutely class politician and even the media would not deny that, nearer would fearty Theresa May who I think genuinely fears Nicola Sturgeon’s class.

      Nicola’s performance last night may well have grabbed a few percentage points from those willing to vote Labour as well as Tory until they watched this leaders debate. I just hope that more Scottish people are as switched on as readers of the likes of Wings are, if they could do it right then the SNP would win all 59 seats. That’s not being fanciful by the way.

      As Tommy Shepherd stated, the best way to support Jeremy Corbyn is to vote SNP in Scotland. Give your vote to the SNP where the Conservatives are strong and SUPPORT Jeremy Corbyns chances of becoming Prime Minister. Do not allow a TORY to win in your area.

      Just do it, vote SNP where Labour can’t win and keep the Tories out!

    128. Legerwood says:

      admiral @ 2.43 pm

      With regard to the PISA scores and the emphasis put on them then this section from the Stewart article in TES, that I referenced in my earlier post, is revealing:

      “”With greater power comes greater scrutiny. In 2013, TES revealed damning new allegations against Pisa from statistical and mathematical experts who said that what had become the world’s most influential education league tables were, in fact, “useless”, produced “meaningless” rankings and were compiled using techniques that were “utterly wrong”.

      “”In response, the OECD admitted that “large variation in single country ranking positions is likely” because of the methods it used. For example, in 2009 the organisation said that the UK’s Pisa ranking out of a total of 74 countries was between 19th and 27th for reading, between 23rd and 31st for maths, and between 14th and 19th for science.

      “”But this admission has made little difference to how rankings are reported in the media, and Pisa does not put the caveats centre stage. The resulting league tables are often taken as definitive statements on the quality of schools systems. And the stakes have become so high that a slip of a few positions caused by statistical variation might today spell the end of an education policy or even a minister’s career.””

      Food for thought and hopefully a more robust defence of their record on education by SG

    129. ALANM says:

      No matter how many seats the SNP win, the result of this election will be interpreted by unionists everywhere as a victory for unionism and a firm rejection of independence. You read it here first.

    130. Bob Mack says:

      Tomorrow brings new hope. I sat today thinking about Thatchers children. The Tory of today is far worse than the matriarch of the party ever was. They have been taught to be without pity or compassion. They are remorseless on their attack on the sick, poor, and disadvantaged.

      The new mantra is “self serve” and me me me. They complain their taxes are not for helping wasters or scroungers as they like to call those forced onto benefits.

      I hope in my lifetime such people and their ideology are eradicated. One thing I have learned in life is that as human beings, true happiness can only come from sharing, whether that be something good or bad.

      Tomorrow tells the tale of whether the majority of Scots are open to each other or if indeed they have become Thatchers children. Good luck to everyone.

    131. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Man, I hated school.

      My teachers were all useless cunts winging it in the public sector safety zone. It’s their fault I didn’t do well, not because I’m thick. Which I’m NOT.

    132. Cactus says:

      Dinner done. Gonna go for a 7 o’clock walk and go walkabout sunny Glasgow. Maybe go to the park, then maybe a movie later…

      Take a walk around your neighbourhood, say hi!

      If you’re able… join me..

      Perfect day tomorrow.

    133. Capella says:

      Feels like we’re in political dead space just now. After the excitement of FMQs this morning and Andy Murray this afternoon, it’s all gone eerily quiet.

      Where’s Ken500 lately? He usually has a lot to say but has become strangely silent. Hope all is well.

    134. One_Scot says:

      Please Scotland, don’t let me down tomorrow.

    135. Thepnr says:


      Maybe your right, depends on the number of seats though eh, what if they ended up with more Mp’s than they have now which is 54?

      I’m optimistic it’s in my nature I guess, believe me I’ve looked at the close seats and can’t see SNP winning less than 50 which would be great but I’m sticking to what I said weeks ago I expect them to get at least 54 🙂

      Thing is, on Friday morning only the SNP can claim victory despite the actual number of seats won. Of that I am sure.

    136. mike d says:

      One-scot I’m hoping the same,and praying to every God under the sun that Scotland do the right thing tomorrow.

    137. Donald says:

      Help get out our vote tomorrow. Help do this any way you can

    138. Brian Powell says:

      After tomorrow we are planning the next steps.

    139. Clapper57 says:

      Apologies to Rev posted the following under ‘Davidson’s Boys’ thread so I am now posting it again under this most recent thread. Truly Sorry.

      One thing about the SNP is their consistency in their message…. unlike loyal Unionists Ruth and Keiza who flip flop depending on which way HQ tells them to jump on any particular policy….and they both WILL adopt and promote any policy as dictated by their HQ , irrespective of how much it could or would damage Scotland….. because for Keiza and Ruth the party comes first….always.

      I want a party that will stand up for Scotland and it’s people and not some pseudo Scots unionist politician who is perpetually torn in their loyalty between their country i.e. Scotland (or not) and their HQ party. I want the party I support and vote for to be focused on me and mine and NOT to be distracted by maintaining a union that is well past it’s sell by date….and for Scots it is no longer a union fit for purpose as a viable option post Brexit.

      To unionist parties in Scotland I say this… I do NOT want a party in ANOTHER country ( your HQ) to dictate what my party (branch office) promotes and adopts as policy and who NEVER promote the benefits, resources and wealth my country Scotland contributes to this disunited kingdom….so why should I vote for a unionist party ?

      Unionist parties are quick to criticise the SNP policies as failing but omit to mention this is under the broad shoulders of the UKOK and with said funding allocated by a UKOK HQ government …..perhaps unionists the solution would be Scottish independence thus offering the SNP self sufficiency in funding their progressive and I say successful policies…..even under meagre UKOK funds.

      Tomorrow is a day when Scots can tell the unionist parties that Scotland IS a country and one that deserves to be treated with respect and be heard . Not demoted to a mere region within UKOK and subservient to self serving HQ politicians who focus solely on EVEL.

      Now more than ever we need strong representation to send a message to May and Ruth, Jeremy and Keiza and Tim and Willie that WE want to decide if WE should be independent post Brexit because WE are sick of YOU dictating the terms…terms that favours not the Scots but favour only the regions as controlled by your respective HQ politicians.

      “Now is the time” for Scots to say “Enough is Enough” and for us to be “strong and stable” in our resolve and no longer tolerate the “coalition of unionist chaos” that exists only to suppress Scotland’s right to self determination….the unionists have had their chance now it’s Scotland’s’ turn to dictate it’s terms to benefit Scots living now and in the future.

      It can only be vote SNP tomorrow if you want to support Scotland and it’s people…….SNP who truly are the party for the many and not just for the few.

    140. ALANM says:


      I hope you’re proved right; let’s wait and see!

      Just as an aside, there must be many of us posting here who’ve voted SNP since the 70’s and so even 40 Westminster seats would be an amazing result. Time was when that would have meant independence tomorrow.

    141. harry mcaye says:

      Did a Yougov poll earlier, exactly the same as one from about three weeks ago so I expect we’ll get a final seat prediction from them later tonight. As long as we get 46+ I’ll be fairly happy. I don’t want our losses to reach double figures. Of course, the polls could be wrong again and we only lose a couple and none of our big hitters.

    142. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      I’m not a gambling person at all, but I wonder what the current odds are for:

      + Labour having no Scottish MPs at all?

      + Kez Dugdale announcing her intention to step down as leader of Labour’s northern administrative unit by the end of the summer?

      The latter not least because, with performances as lame as last night’s, she has clearly failed to achieve the impossible, which is to appease the right-wing element of her own party. The latest affront to her leadership being the Lab big cheese in Stirling saying outright “vote Tory”!

      I mean, how often does this kind of thing have to happen before the remaining Labour stalwarts finally realise they are voting for nothing more than the Tories’ eager little helpers?

    143. heedtracker says:

      C4 news teatime, Kez ” Its a categoric (sic) lie, demeans the office etc…”

      C4 news ligger says we’re all sick of elections, which is actually the most creepy thing to be spoken out loud by an English journo, in Scotland.

      Because if the SNP had lost them all, they’d all be a wonder and glory of democracy, great British democracy too.

      Thanks again proud Scot buts. There really is no one like you.

    144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ALANM @ 19:34,

      I’m neither a member of the SNP (or any other party, for that matter), nor a longstanding SNP voter like yourself, but at the last UK election I reckoned that if the SNP achieved more than 40 MPs the party could count that a major success, and the unlikely (!) event of 50+ to be a stupendous success. And we all know what the eventual outcome was.

      What with the barrage of propaganda being directed at the SNP from all sides, maybe 50+ is unlikely this time, so I would account that still a stupendous success, and 45+ still a major achievement. If 40+ is now to be seen as fairly ho-hum, what an indication alone that is of how much things have changed.

      But soon enough now we’ll see. Whatever the exact outcome, a triple mandate though for the SNP it surely will still be.

    145. velofello says:

      “I also had a call from the FM following Bexit”, says Ruthie. Also? Who else Kez?

    146. Iain says:

      I know that I am preaching to the converted, but if you want freedom for the Scottish nation vote for freedom and vote SNP.
      You know it makes sense, a vote for Labour is a vote for Kezia.
      A vote for Wee Ruth is a vote for the repression of Scotland.
      A vote for wee willie is a vote for the torY’s.

    147. heedtracker says:

      Tonight’s C4 news widdle all over Scottish democracy isn’t online yet but it is Opportunity 5 and Sturgeon is a liar, Dugdale is adamant. When comes online its at the end of the show, where C4 always do their minor party stuff but I suppose its something that Tomo gave it a mention. Not sure the great man’s that impressed by Ruth D.

      Oh well, that’s whole point of imperial masters. After taking a long hard piss all over Scottish democracy, C4 evening progs from England boot up, with every last thing C4 makes, all about England, as usual. Because why would C4 want to make a Scottish tv programme.

    148. Liam says:

      I got my first piece of Lib Dem literature through the post today. Pride of place on it went to the candidate, Jean Davis, standing next to (or convincingly Photoshoped next to) the seat’s previous Lib Dem incumbent, Charles Kennedy. The guy died over two years ago. Let the man rest in peace.

    149. boris says:

      If you missed this first time round Well worth listening to this little madam

    150. Meg merrilees says:

      Thought Nicola was on fire this afternoon.
      Loved the way she stood no nonsense from Kezia and managed to frame tRuthless for her tweet about recording the FM’s conversation too.
      Even Ken McIntosh had to reprimand Kezia twice for stepping out of line – wow!


      Definitely feeling pensive this evening.
      SO much at stake.

      A bad result tomorrow doesn’t bear thinking about with all it’s possible ramifications for so many vulnerable people. Truly why would any sane person vote Tory?

      Trying not to pace the floor and not quite daring to believe that we might be on the cusp of something brilliant tomorrow. Have met so many people today who have already voted or intend to vote SNP- but is it sufficient?

      Only one sleep left but I’m not sure i’ll sleep.

      A big thank you to all on this website – particularly the Rev.
      Where would Scotland be without his contribution?

      Thanks all for keeping me sane and making me laugh out loud at times!
      Proud to be a Winger!

      Early bed – early start tomorrow.

      Good luck, Scotland


      Liz g and K1

      I’ve added a post to our discussion on the preceding thread.

    151. Dr Jim says:

      Have you noticed the only folk sick of elections are the people who think they’re going to lose them

    152. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      ALANM at 6.28

      And it doesn’t matter. The mandate is there.

    153. Robert Peffers says:

      Dedicated to Oor Kez

    154. yesindyref2 says:

      My son just told me a pal of his who voted YES, is thinking of voting Labour because of the SNP’s performance on education, NHS … hold on a wee minute.

      So a last-minute message to get out is that this is a WESTMINSTER election, not a Holyrood one, and it’s about keeping the Tories out of UK Government, nothing to do with Holyrood. So people should decide who are the best bet to keep out Tory MPs, hold their nose, and vote SNP.

    155. justin fn minty says:



    156. galamcennalath says:

      Getting the SNP vote out tomorrow is going to be the decider. Especially getting the young vote out.

      The forecast looks miserable and that is said to favour the Tories.

      We need to stop the Tories getting seats in Scotland. The fewer the better.

      I will be doing my bit, out about.

      If you have time available tomorrow, PLEASE play a part in getting the SNP vote out.

      If you are young, then PLEASE vote.

      If you are a Labour, LibDem, or Green supporter …. PLEASE vote SNP to help protect your community for the worst of Tory excesses by considering voting SNP.

    157. Maryscot says:

      All the best tomorrow Scotland. Hopefully get a vast majority. Just heard the radio interview with Ruthie. God can she not talk any faster. Even as a Scot I find it difficult to keep up with her.

    158. Rock says:

      Flower of Scotland,

      “National seems to think that this has done harm to FM Nicola.”

      By writing that, the “independence supporting” The National tries to harm the First Minister and the SNP on the eve of an election?

      Don’t say you hadn’t been warned:


      “The National does not support independence, never did.”

    159. Stoker says:

      I see the thread’s been infested by the usual BUM Bandits posting direct links to BUM rags. Anyway, just popped in to feed the fish to the sharks. Get stuck in you lot! Peffers, there’s a juicy bit or two in here for you to get your gums into.

      Scottish Sceptic – SNP: liars & economically insane

    160. HandandShrimp says:

      God can she not talk any faster. Even as a Scot I find it difficult to keep up with her.

      The trick is not to actually say anything then you can talk as fast as you like, the brain doesn’t have do any work. Ruth has mastered the art.

    161. Rock says:


      “No matter how many seats the SNP win, the result of this election will be interpreted by unionists everywhere as a victory for unionism and a firm rejection of independence. You read it here first.”

      Rock (2nd June),

      “Anything less than 56 will be portrayed as a defeat by the media.

      And if the Tories increase their number by 100% or more, there will be euphoria about “no-one wants another independence referendum.”

      I hope the most disgusting and nastiest politician in Scotland does not make any gains tomorrow, but it looks like she will.

    162. Graeme says:

      Rock says:
      7 June, 2017 at 9:32 pm

      Flower of Scotland,

      “National seems to think that this has done harm to FM Nicola.”

      To be honest Rock I thought the same thing at first, but after watching PMQ today not any more.

      Nicola was on fire today and Kezia made a first class arse of herself over it


    163. whitegold says:

      The election was called for one reason and one reason alone.
      To dilute SNP in Westminster.
      SNP simply had too many seats which sat uncomfortably with the government.

    164. asklair says:

      No idea what the result is going to be, looks as if the Tories may hold on to power, I can remember the Thatcher years. Dark days, months and years ahead for all of us.

    165. Cactus says:

      Ahm stoatin’ aboot da sue-side ah Glasgow ra now… there’s a good buzz a going on in the bars. Let’s hope that translates into a good turnout for the SNP tomorrow.

      Went to the Rouken Glen pond earlier and saw the Cob & Pen with their kiddies.. they’ve got themselves 10 baby cygnets, them lucky parents.

      Ye know what that means… it’s a sign..


    166. Bob p says:

      Whitegold,my thoughts exactly,and what happens if snp get say 45 seats plus? Will Westminster call another election in 18mnths 2yrs time when it suits them. We need to refuse to accept this sh**e.

    167. galamcennalath says:

      asklair says:

      looks as if the Tories may hold on to power

      Which will bring a crash and burn Brexit. When that becomes clear we will have ScotRef and surely the Scots won’t bottle it again. There can be no promises of DevoSuperFckigFederalMax this time. The future under the Union will look very bleak.

      Even for many of the ‘me first brigade’, Indy will look like their safe option, I suspect.

      Dark days, months and years ahead for all of us.

      For sure. However a free and independent Scotland may be waiting at the end of it all.

      The best crops often grow from the smelliest shite. 🙂

    168. indyref2 @ 9.12pm

      Pretty gorram simple, ain’t it? And yet it seems so difficult for some folk to get their heads round.

      An anti-Tory vote should be the easiest one to gain in Scotland. That it isn’t, is in itself a measure of how much politics has changed since 2014 – and a measure of the fine work the SNP has been doing protecting Scots against the worst of austerity. If Scotland’s NHS was experiencing the same hardship as England’s, we’d be independent inside a week.

      In 1994 I was working in Brussels, and my boss, an Englishman, was asked by Continental colleagues why the UK didn’t have a far right party like the Front National. He replied that it did, and that it was currently in government.

      At the time, I thought this was pushing it a bit far. Not today. This is Britain’s Trump election, its Le Pen election. If May wins, and I think the chances are she will, it will be a victory for fascism.

      After tomorrow, the SNP will be fighting not just for Scotland, or for Scottish independence, but for truth vs propaganda and reality vs fantasy – as universal principles, not just aspects of political debate.

      Obviously, I hope I’m wrong. Good luck, everyone.

    169. jfngw says:

      Just watched May on a factory visit kindly provided by BBC. Strangely all the ‘workers’ interviewed would support the Tories and seemed very adept with the party slogans. Have they moved onto fake workers now, party activists being given staff tea shirts, I could believe it.

    170. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      whitegold at 9.59

      Agreed. This election was merely an exact carry on from the nationwide unionist campaign at our local election which had nothing to do with local issues and I’m sure this had been planned for some time.

      It is their last throw and we will now move on to planning the next referendum. The field is clear of the two impediments (both those elections)and the SNP has been involved in nothing more than a holding exercise (which is very boring). Our SNP branch will be putting monthly newsletters promoting independence across the whole area from now on. Can’t wait to get going.

      (Worried however about what they might get up to next.)

    171. sassenach says:

      Please, God, let all Scots have a backbone tomorrow and vote FOR SCOTLAND – and the SNP.

      I cannot abide the thought of all those yoons telling us to get back in our box , once again.

      What is wrong with people that they cannot see what is going to happen to us all if they vote Tory (or for either of their other ‘little helpers’)?

      Not much sleep tonight, I fear.

    172. Cactus says:

      Same as the tree in the Clutha bar, on the Clydeside…

      It sprang 10 new leaves.

      On the inside.


    173. asklair @ 10pm

      Worth remembering that it was the Campaign for a Scottish Assembly that kept the devo debate going thru the dark days of the early 1980s, following the theft of the ’79 referendum, and out of that came the Claim of Right, the Constitutional Convention, the ‘settled will of the Scottish people’ and a conclusive victory in the ’97 referendum.

      We’re in a stronger place now than we were then.

    174. K1 says:

      Meg, likewise on previous thread.

    175. heedtracker says:

      Stoker says:
      7 June, 2017 at 9:41 pm
      I see the thread’s been infested by the usual BUM Bandits posting direct links to BUM rags

      That must be me, a bum bandit. Sometimes archive is is out of order.

      Scottish BUM bandit’s pretty good though Stoker.

    176. Effijy says:

      To repeat the exceptional SNP result with 56 seats must be near impossible, particularly with every sinew straining in every Westminster Party and Every UK Media outlet poisoning
      us on a daily basis.

      My hope is for 80% of the Scottish seats going to SNP-
      Approximately 48 seats.

      When the cabal above try to portray this as the demise of SNP and Independence, remember that the Tories would require 520 seats to reach 80% of the UK seats total.

      The Tories will be lucky to get 55% of the seats,
      40% of the votes.

      Let’s also make it clear that Davidson states categorically that people who don’t want a second referendum will vote Tory.
      If the SNP gets more votes, and more seats, than the Toxic Tories, then yet again that is another mandate for another Referendum and Scottish Independence.

    177. stu mac says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      7 June, 2017 at 9:12 pm
      So a last-minute message to get out is that this is a WESTMINSTER election, not a Holyrood one, and it’s about keeping the Tories out of UK Government, nothing to do with Holyrood. So people should decide who are the best bet to keep out Tory MPs, hold their nose, and vote SNP.

      Yes BUT you have to emphasise that whatever problems we have with Education and the NHS up here, their outcomes in Scotland are still far better than elsewhere in the UK. Point out that he is being lied to about the SNP doing such a bad job in these areas. Otherwise it’s allowing the lie to be confirmed as truth in his mind.

    178. One_Scot says:

      Scotland, my four boys are too young to vote for you on Thursday. All I ask is that stand tall tomorrow, and help give them a better future than I can give them.

    179. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      What about this @Robert J. Sutherland says at 7:45 pm?

      I wonder what the current odds are for:

      1. T May losing her seat?

      That would be poetic justice.

      The PM who called an unnecessary GE thinking she’d win a landslide, whilst refusing to meet the public whose votes she took for granted.

      That would be up there with the near wipeout of the Yoons Scottish Branches in 2015.


      2. Sinn Fein actually occupying their seats at Westminster following the GE

      I wouldn’t put it past them using a ‘protecting NIs place in the EU’ argument for finally doing this without losing face among their core supporters.

      Anyway folks this time tomorrow polls will be closed and we will all be holding our breath, waiting impatiently and hoping for the best whilst fearing the worst.

      One thing is definite though, regardless of this GE result, the fight for an Indy Scotland will continue.

      Remember GE2017 is just another skirmish in a long line of battles that the SNP will win in this democratic fight for our Nations future (despite what the BBC will report on Friday).

      The Indy Ref2 mandate passed by the Scottish Government at Holyrood and the dark cloud of Brexit are both still hanging over Westminster (regardless of whom eventually forms the next, and hopefully last UK Government).

      Good Luck tomorrow to the SNP and good night to all Wingers.

    180. ben madigan says:

      join with you all in fervent desire to get the Scotland vote out tomorrow and ensure the SNP win.

      Do whatever it takes (lifts, baby – and pet- sitting, circulating loud-hailers, meeting workers at workplaces), to get voters to the polling stations

      A big thank you to all the SNP activists who have put and tomorrow will put “boots/shoes/sneakers/high heels (I’m looking at you, Paula Rose!!) on the ground”!!

    181. Phronesis says:

      Japanese proverb ; Nana korobi ya oki;
      Fall seven times and stand up eight

      When life knocks you down, stand back up- the YES movement just won’t stay down. It has grit,passion,resilience and real hope – our collective efforts can improve the future.Vote SNP tomorrow.

    182. galamcennalath says:

      Back to the main theme of the page. I remembered this Cairn’s Toon ….

    183. cearc says:


      Ach, I didn’t get that one. I got one for the neighbouring constituency!

      At least Kennedy’s team knew that I was in his constituency – mind you Thurso thought so as well! So I used to get double the fire lighting material.

    184. Lochside says:

      I said all along that Kezia dugdale was a sociopathic liar. She has validated that judgement at precisely the right time. Her mirror image blue tory sister..Moothie had her gas put at a peep yesterday by Nicola and a real Scottish audience who showed their displeasure at her callous and brutal atitude to her own gender with the Rape clause.

      Maybe the stars are finally aligning to allow us to banish these imposters and charlatans forever from our political life. Vote #SNPGood# tomorrow Scotland and set us on the final part of the journey to self realisation as an independent country and nation!

    185. Just had to say this somewhere! Watched the Jon Snow Theresa interview. Seems to me that all the marvellous things May is to negotiate for Brexit, are all the things we have already! What? Am I missing something? “I want to leave this club, but still have the benefits”. She’s mad I tell ye! Maaaad!

    186. heedtracker says:

      Last ditch vote anyone but you know who Scots from Graun, Severins very angry about The Dugdale revelation, that never happened, but may have.

      Sorry Stoker I’m a BUM bandit that cant shake the habit of over a decade now!

    187. DeepFriedPenguin says:

      One of things i will never understand about this election campaign is the way Nicola appears to have gone along with MSM attempt to frame it as being about her Holyrood gov. record.

      Almost every debate has been a 3 or 4 against 1 attack on the SNP on education, NHS, etc instead of a debate about Westminster reserved powers.

      This had in effect given a free pass to the Unionist parties, in particular Ruth Davidson.

      Probably the best debate of the campaign was the one involving Angus Robertson, because for once the SNP was not on the backfoot.

      Will be interesting to see once the election is over why this was allowed to happen and if any attempt was made to combat it.

    188. Mary miles says:

      Hello from Tassie:

      Good luck today. Whatever happens THE FIGHT FOR INDENDENCE WILL GO ON!!! Vote today for SNP and Independence.

      Love to all Wingers and all who love Scotland.

      Mary Miles

    189. Hamish100 says:


      Do you support independence? You pop up with your wee negative jibes. Are you really Tom Gordon ? Change your photograph online there’s

      BBC Scotland Katy Grant – well connected — up heeer the conservatives have hadd a gooood campaign—- good on Stephen Paton of the National. Sharp, clever retort.

      Rock you must hate him.

      SNP X , Support your National paper.

    190. jfngw says:

      Good lucky to all the SNP candidates tomorrow.

      It is now 25 years since I first voted for the SNP. The candidate then was Nicola Sturgeon (Glasgow Shettleston), she did not win on that occasion but this year will be a different matter.

    191. yesindyref2 says:

      It was the categorically definitely and blatantly obviously Independence supporting except to a total maroon or provocateur bent on deception and division, The National, that printed this that I read after midnight and was able to make immediate use of in the Herald as I hadn’t known it before, and it’s something Sturgeon referred to, and the SNP guy on STV tonight, and it’s this:

      Dugdale had revealed the secret talks with Sturgeon after the Brexit vote in an interview with The Times in February this year, but didn’t mention her offer of support for an independence referendum.

      So the “private conversation” hadn’t been private since February, and the truth of Sturgeon’s “allegation” is accepted even by the likes of the other two – Clegg and some Labour guy (Pia?).

      Which means basically anyone who says The National doesn’t support Independence is badly in need of a continual colonic irrigation and a total degaussing to boot.

    192. Cactus says:

      @ previous union party voters ~

      Fuck it!

      Vote SNP.

    193. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lochside (11.10) —

      Hear hear.

    194. Cactus says:

      Aweright Ian B ~ 🙂

      Good to see ye on Saturday bro.

      Scotland kicked ass!


    195. Cactus says:

      Welcome to the 8th.

      Good luck Scotland!!!

    196. Stephen McKenzie says:

      We will see what happens today.

      But whatever, Wings is my first port of call regardless and all the valued postings from fellow Wingers (good or bad!)

      Night.. Stephen McKenzie

    197. Flower of Scotland says:

      Good luck to all SNP candidates tomorrow!

      Seems that Tories are going to take NE Fife according to the Electoral calculus! I’m going out to get out the vote and try and stop that happening. But here this Tories , I will never ever give up on the SNP and Independence for Scotland.

      I’m old enough to have been through this many times, but we always come back fighting!

    198. Still Positive says:

      Vote SNP tomorrow/today to make sure Scotland’s voice is heard in Westminster.

      We cannae allow the Unionist parties to have the upper hand.

      Our future depends on voting SNP.

    199. Artyhetty says:

      Re:deep fried penquin@11.20pm

      Agree with you, but the whole UK wide, general election campaign, has been about the SNP, independence, and supposed ScotGov failures, like their attempts to repair the decades, no, centuries of UNIONIST damage. Things like, under investment, in everything including infrastructure, education, the NHS, selling off around half of Scotland’s land to private individuals, siphoning off Scotland’s revenues from the many and varied resources in Scotland, and privatisation of our public services where the unionists could get away with it.

      Nothing positive is being offered or aspired to from the unionists, it is truly disgraceful.

      Heard today at a stall, a few folks site Scottish education being bad, so no, no no we will vote tory or whatever, and then the oil, oh but you will be very poor, rubbish like that. Crap about the Dugdale lies, and blaming N.Sturgeon for actually telling the truth.

      SNP are doing an amazing job, in a few short years, against huge odds, to at least make inroads into improving the lives of people, unlike the unionists, who really only ever stood up for themselves in Scotland, their nice cosy, guaranteed for life pretendy lefty, paid for from the public purse,rather well paid jobs.

      Vote SNP tomorrow, to ensure that Scotland has any sort of voice whilst in this so called UK. Shackled to this right wing, hard brexit, no human rights, forget any notion of workers rights,
      taken back to the 18th century, extreme right wing driven UKok, we absolutely need to be able to counter at least some of the damage coming from Westminster, otherwise, say goodbye to Scotland as we know it and as we would like it to be.

      A modern, forward looking, 21st century, aspirational, peacefully driven, equality driven country, called, SCOTLAND, is what we need now and for the future.

      Good luck for tomorrow all who support that as being the very least we should expect of a modern successful country.

      Good luck to the rUK, who knows what will emerge from this tory election.

    200. K1 says:

      Just been musing…strong feeling a lot of people in England who voted Labour are going to wake up on Friday morning feeling as we did on the 19th September 2104. For many down south this has been a positive experience with the non combative usual smearing stuff that is typical from all sides, Corbyn didn’t indulge in this and has actually achieved a great deal in this respect. And it’s safe to say it’s been the point at which the English left seems to have found its voice…at the grass roots level.

      The Tories will win this. It makes little difference to us in Scotland as the SNP will win this here and yes I get all the spin, but in the face of opposition from every conceivable media outlet across the UK and our own dedicated bunch of wanker journalists in Scotland, we will still have achieved a remarkable result, even if the Ruth Harrison party sneak an orange person through the door of Westminster, they will still be hugely outnumbered by our own representatives at Westminster.

      I feel a little more optimistic about the direction of travel with our neighbours now, like us they won’t give up having come within touching distance of enacting a really different political agenda than what has been on offer down there for years, mair power tae them in this regard. Corbyn although a staunch unionist, he’s no an Ian Murray or any ot the other shower of Blairite monkeys we’ve been stuck with here, and maybe he will clear the chaff from Scotland after this even when they lose.

      We need a progressive alliance across the UK to fight this shower of shit that is coming our way, and perhaps now Corbyn having gained real confidence on the back of this election will become a proper opposition in Westminster and stand with the SNP to fight against what ah expect will be a weakened Tory party after their performance during this campaign. He surely can’t be ousted after pulling back from where Labour were at the start of this election? He’s the one that brought them back intae contention.

      So let’s keep looking on the bright side, I’ve a strong feeling we’re going to slap them in the face the morra. We’re winning this and have reshaped the politics on these islands forever. Yes, we have and we will continue to lead this way against the forces of darkness that threaten our future generations but we’re also leaving them a legacy of what it looks like to fight for what is right. And we are not done yet,

      When we dust off this election, for us here in Scotland who are fighting for our independence we continue toward our destination, this is a wee glitch that may favour our cause more than we presently realise…many more are waking up to the stitch up and the utter corruption of mainstream politics in the UK.

      Let’s not doubt ourselves regardless of Firday’s results, we’re on our way. There is nothing that has even dented our core movement. We should be immensely proud of what we have achieved and of course of the party that has led the way as the vehicle that will take us to our freedom from the bonds of this outdated, corrupt and misnamed ‘Union’.

      Our voices will be heard and they will echo into the future, we are Scotland’s peaceful warriors. (Well…wi a wee bit o’ growlin’ when required…obvs;-). )

    201. schrodingers cat says:

      we may lose some seats tomorrow, perhaps even some big hitters, but dont be dismayed, it is merely unionist tactical voting redressing an imbalance.

      we will still be the biggest party in scotland by a country mile

      we still have a mandate for indyref2

      prediction, snp 44% with 48 seats tory win with slim to comfortable maj. i intend to blame slab for letting in the tories 🙂

      while many dont want indyref2 right now, (even though we were not asking for it now) the focus will now switch to brexit, when the sh1t hits the fan and we find out exactly what brexit means, the demand for indyref2 and support for yes will rise.

      we are in the best place to win our independence for over 300 years, so please, no recriminations tomorrow, keep the faith

    202. Chick McGregor says:

      I’m still convinced Mhairi Black’s maiden speech in the HoC was more than a little helpful to Corbyn’s leadership win.

    203. K1 says:

      Aye Chick, you may well be right. She’s a force unto herself so she is 🙂

      This SNP thunderclap thing is happening the morra at 11 am. I don’t have twitter, FB or Tumblr, ye need that tae join this: Can we get this twittered tae spread the word for those on those social media platforms please:

    204. Liz g says:

      Well Hell….
      After careful consideration MY prediction for tomorrow is 60 seats
      And before any nay sayer pipes up that there aren’t 60 seat’s!!!! We are just that good….

    205. stuckdoonhame says:

      Well “fuck my old boots”, as one of my Dad’s RAF compatriots famously said. Mr Stuck has just rolled in from a late pub session with the news that one of his drinking buddies, a wannabee Labour councillor (Dum&Gal) will be voting Tory tomorrow despite knowing what a git the candidate is because 1) hates Nicola Sturgeon and 2) wants Brexit. I despair. Think down here we will be back to Toryland on Friday.

    206. K1 says:

      Ah see yer using the ‘notional’ calculator Liz, well done for findin’ wan so close tae the day 😉

    207. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      stuckdoonhame @ 01:07,

      That’s another “win” for Kez, then.

      Yes, it could be “two steps forward, one step back” later today, I fear. And we may have to endure a lot of gleeful “peak SNP” on the Tory+BBC (who are both just so predictable).

      If there are any recriminations once the results are in, it should be for BLiS and the BBC, who have together fought an excellent campaign…

      …for the Tories.

      It would be a relief for our English cousins at least, if it were different, but after this wonderful little month-and-half time and money waster, it’ll be Mayhem back on the day job of wrecking Britain.

      But there will be payback for it in Scotland soon enough, just you wait and see…

    208. Liz g says:

      Thanks K1…
      Have also left a comment for you and Meg Merrilees over on the other thread,the “This Is A Real Thing” wan…where the conversation is no senseless (don’t know how you have the patience,let me tell ya).

    209. yesindyref2 says:

      BMG Poll in Herald showing landslide for Tories, but SNP with 55 seats. I hate to say this but I hope the poll is wrong. 5 more years with May and the UK will be singing, but it won’t be about going to paradise, it’ll be off a Brexit cliff.

    210. K1 says:

      Kept him off the main threads for a bit Liz. Also…I like ‘de con struction’ 😉

      Will check out the other thread, if I don’t say anything in response now, it’s cause I’m off tae bed…will catch up the morra, need to get a good night’s sleep tonight as ah know I’ll be up way past reasonable into Friday, watching the results. Here’s hoping we do really well tomorrow….

      Come on Scotland, we can do this!

      Night all.

    211. jockmcx says:

      We just have to hang on until they see the light.And when they do they will stampede over yes voters to demand indy.

      We’re living in a feckin mad hatter’s tea party,and it’s –
      getting worse by the minute.

      Corbyn or May…May or Corbyn? PFFFT!

      Keep calm and vote SNP…and then do it again…and again…
      it’ll get dark… but the Yes vote will rise in the east,
      west,north and south,because there is no uk,just a big black
      bloody cloud.

      All the time in the world.

    212. yesindyref2 says:

      Yes we do.

      OHMSS – a very under-rated movie, and a sad one.

    213. Macart says:

      It’s Scottish democracy v Tory narrative. Its selflessness v self interest. Inclusion v exclusion. Tolerance v intolerance.

      This is where 300 and odd years plus change has always been headed. The next two ballots in our journey are perhaps the most important in our history. The choices we face will define us to the world. It’s more important than flags and the surface cosmetics of statehood. It’s more important than party politics. These ballots are about who we are as people. What we sign our name to. Where we stand on social justice and true unity with like minded souls across the globe.

      What KIND of country do we want to live in? What legacy do we wish to leave to future generations and to the world at large?

      Those who are familiar with this site and a host of other indy sites KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt who we are and what we stand for. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt what the Tories of all shades are and what they stand for. What they’ve done to protect their hegemony. What they’ve done to our politics, our communities, our families.

      They cannot and must not be allowed to win.

      You know what is at stake. You know what they intend for our democracy. That’s something you either use or lose.

      Just get out and vote.

    214. Thepnr says:

      This Herald View is a disgusting attack on Nicola Sturgeon. I can’t believe what I’ve just read.

      “The First Minister says she categorically stands by her claim, made during the final TV debate, that the Scottish Labour leader told her that she was open to a second referendum on Scottish independence because of Brexit; Ms Dugdale on the other hand says Ms Sturgeon’s claim is a lie. Both of them cannot be right.”

      It then finishes on “Nicola Sturgeon may pay for the tactic”

    215. yesindyref2 says:

      Polling Day

      Better get in the queue, don’t miss out!

      Vote SNP!

    216. yesindyref2 says:

      plus one comment now …

    217. Capella says:

      No newspaper review on the BBC website. Usually the “British” papers are up before midnight the day before. The Scottish ones about 8 hours later.
      So far, none.
      Is this because it’s election day? Are the biased papers banned as election canvassing material?

    218. Nana says:


      The case for pessimism…and the case for mild optimism

      No wonder Mundell is worried in DCT.. Mairi McAllan takes him to task at a hustings in Peebles
      Video here

    219. gus1940 says:

      Irrespective of any Times article of this spring I distinctly remember reports around the time of last year’s EU Referendum quoting Dugdale suggesting that in the event of Brexit not only would she support Indyref2 but that she might vote Yes when it was held.

      Although the conjured up furore over Nicola’s statement in the debate over the so-called secret phone call is only what we would expect I cannot see what NC has done wrong in mentioning something which was the talk of the steamie last summer including in the biased propaganda rags which are now in jumping up and down mode against Nicola.

    220. Smallaxe says:

      Nana: Good Morning, it’s raining here today so make sure that you’re wearing your rainvote (sorry) :-).Thank You, for your lovely links.Kettle’s on. Peace Always

    221. Macart says:


      Heh. Mr Snow didn’t mince his words. 🙂

      Ta Nana.

    222. Nana says:

      Good morning Smallaxe. Rainvote lol

      Bright morning here,let’s hope it stays dry. Good luck Scotland!

      A couple more links

      Politics Scot David Hooks
      Don’t Vote Yet OK, so I said 5 minutes & it’s a wee bit more, & there’s 1 swear word but apart from that….


      Peston had a few digs as well

      video here

    223. Macart says:


      He certainly did, didn’t he? 😀

    224. Smallaxe says:

      Nana: Thanks for that Mundell video, he want’s Trident and Mairi McAllan gave him a pitchfork instead.
      Peace Always

    225. Dorothy Devine says:

      Been and gone and done it! Remarkably steady numbers at 7.15 this morning – young , old and in between.

      ‘Mon Scotland! Vote to remain a country !

      Support the SNP and NOT the MSM.

      And avoid the Davidson/ May Party whoever they are!

    226. Nana says:

      I have just had another libdem leaflet delivered. Postie tells me they were told to deliver them today and he says there are piles of them at the sorting office.

      I thought this was not allowed on polling day? Am I correct in thinking it is not?

    227. Dorothy Devine says:

      Nana , my postie doesn’t arrive until lunchtime and I have voted as have many around here. I do hope it costs them a great deal of money .

      Does anyone know if the Liberal Party have coughed up the money they owe to the Scottish Police Service?

    228. Big Jock says:

      Voted at 7.50 am. Not many in at that time. Spoke to the guy in the polling office. He said see you in month or two when May resigns and another election is called. He reckons a hung parliament with the Tories running a minority!

    229. Nana says:


      I’ve had eleven leaflets from them, 5 from the blues and nothing from the reds. I remember seeing on twitter some folks have had 25 leaflets from the libdems. I hope someone will be raking through the spending returns.

      As far as I am aware the libdems have not paid the police service a bean.

    230. @ gus1940 7.10am

      Yeah, I saw a front page report on – was it a Sunday paper? – in Sainsbury’s quoting Dugdale as saying she could see herself voting Yes.

      I took that for what it was worth – nothing.

    231. Meg merrilees says:


      Perhaps The Herald will actually pay for the tactic!!!

    232. Jack Murphy says:

      Thankyou Nana for all your links today just after 7am.

      This one sounds good—–get the results as they come in tonight,courtesy of Independence Live Livestream—–cuts out the Middleman!
      A breath of fresh air. 🙂

    233. Big Jock says:

      Pete Wishart saying it’s too close to call. I hope the rain keeps the old Tories off the street in Perthsire.

      There isn’t a large sectarian vote in Perthshire so it’s hard to see how Toxic Hatemonger Ruth can dig up another 10%. The SNP held that seat at WM before 2015 landslide. So it wasn’t as a result of a national bandwagon. I am hopeful for Pete and pretty sure Angus will hang on in Moray.

    234. Fred says:

      Nana, thanks for your links throughout this campaign, you’re a Trojan, your kettle-biler Smallaxe ditto!

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