Neither blood nor soil
Supporters of Scottish independence have known for years that the civic “nationalism” espoused by the Yes movement bears no relation to the so-called “blood and soil” varieties found in many other countries. Every racist or ethnic-nationalist organisation in Britain – the BNP, the EDL/SDL, the National Front and so on – was stridently No.
But a YouGov poll released today puts numbers on it for the first time.
Asking a series of questions about what qualified a person to be “Scottish”, the poll’s results found absolutely conclusively that Yes voters were significantly more inclusive about nationality than No voters.
The poll’s questions do over-simplify the situation somewhat. Someone who’s lived in Scotland for 10 years might well consider themselves Scottish, and be very welcome to do so, but they also might not.
(I, for example, was born in Scotland to two Scottish parents and grew up there, but I’ve now spent slightly over half of my life in England. As far as I’m concerned I’m still Scottish, and anyone in England who TOLD me I was English because I’d lived here a certain amount of time would get short shrift. It’s my choice, just as it is for people born elsewhere who now live in Scotland, which I suspect is why the numbers in the second half of the poll aren’t higher.)
Nevertheless, the gulf is clear. By margins ranging from 30% to 75%, Yes voters are more prepared to welcome an outsider in as a Scot than No voters are. By a distance, it’s the Unionists who care most where you were born or who your parents were.
(Just as the SNP Scottish Government gave EU citizens a vote in the indyref, while the Conservative/Unionist UK government denied them a vote in the EU referendum.)
Trivial matters like facts won’t, of course, stop Unionists from portraying Yes voters as a bunch of xenophobic bigots and Nazis. Several surveys (and all the actual case evidence) proving that Yes supporters were far more likely to face physical and verbal intimidation and abuse than their No counterparts didn’t change the media narrative and nor will this.
But it’s nice to have some empirical data to point to at last.
You could be from a distant galaxy, far far away, if you come here to live and wish to be Scottish, then welcome.
It’s the folk that don’t want Scotland to exist, other than as a northern county, I can’t be arsed with.
Interesting. The blood aspect is shown clearly with the two Scottish parents. That is the only situation where NO voters exceed Yes is saying someone is Scottish. NO voters consider Scottish as genetic in every case.
I even had someone (with right wing and Unionist views) suggest to me that people born in Scotland, but living outside, should have had a vote.
I still think that because nearly twelve percent of people living in Scotland are English and most are only here temporarily for work and intend to return to live in England they should not get a vote on Scottish independence.Likewise I also know German and Italian people who lived her and were only here post study at one of our universities and then worked for a few years who also voted NO in the last Scottish independence referendum but have now left Scotland for good and returned to their own countries to live,I don’t think they should have been allowed to vote either.Its tricky because we do want those people from other countries who have decided their permanent or long term future is in Scotland to have a say in how the country is run.
“and most are only here temporarily for work and intend to return to live in England”
How can you possibly know that? What if they changed their mind?
The people a decision will affect are the ones who should get a say. That’s why it’s right that I, as a born-and-bred Scot, DON’T get a vote and people from other countries who live in Scotland do. I’d be very uncomfortable with independence achieved under any other rules.
It does confirm what most of us knew in our gut that the Yoons are Xenophobic Bigots.
I speak as the Son of an Englishman but Scottish mother. I have always consider myself Scottish though as I was born here and grew up here and lived here most of my adult life.
Of course whenever I am blethering away to a friend with what Gaelic I know it is not uncommon to get told to GTF back to where you come from foreigner. More than once we have overheard the curse “EFFIN FOREIGNERS!” It is side splitting to hear it from immigrants from south of the border but it is annoying to hear it from those with Scots accents.
There is some extra compensation in getting a put down in when we point out in English the ignorance of such Yoons. I don’t recall ever getting an apology for informing the ignorant bigots about the errors of their ways.
I suppose I shouldn’t be too judgemental since they do get pumped with Yoon Propaganda on a daily basis and float around peer groups who think the sun shines out of their British arses.
For whatever reason, Scottish adherents of British nationalism have chosen to adopt the values of English nationalism. I put it down to the “One Nation” habitus that has evolved in Scotland over three centuries of internal colonisation. British is now perceived as normal and ‘middle-class and people generally want to be normal and middle-class. This process has institutionalised a historic division of labor based on cultural identity and ethnicity.
Vile!
The World Today: Imagined Communities – On British Nationalism
link to youtube.com
I’m with jimnarlene on this. You come here to live and contribute, then you’re a Scot if you want to be far as I’m concerned and welcome. 🙂
Funny, they seem to think that, for their NO VOTING CHUMS, just living here for 6 weeks every summer, or buying a student flat, allows them to influence our future prospects.
I was born in Manchester to a Scottish dad and an English mum, and have always considered myself as having joint Scottish/English nationality. I’ve just passed my 26th anniversary as a resident in Scotland.
As the proud owner of a south Lancashire accent, though, I sound English. The only anti-English or Anglophobic sentiment I came across during the referendum campaign was from No supporters, mostly along the lines of who did I think I was, as an Englishman, wanting to change Scotland’s future. There were also a few comments about me becoming a foreigner and being sent home after a Yes vote.
Always wondered why this was the case. Did unionist Scots, on some deep level, really resent the fact that outsiders had more confidence in their nation than they had?
So lets imagine there were 6 legs on the bettertogether table.
Any left?
Well said jimnarlene , heartily endorse that and NO I am NOT posting too quickly!
Having been away for a fortnight I was kind of hoping that that wee message would have vanished up its own rear end – but no.
Ian on the other thread , may I add my good wishes regarding your health.
Off Topic
I enjoyed Sturgeons vicious put down of the Tories today “That is like the Arsonist blaming the Fire Brigade!”
The EBC could only refer to it as sharp exchange but I would call it a kick to the baws.
This is a summary of what I experienced mingling with the groups and since.
Certainly a strain of the Scottish version of the BritNat hanging about that I have had run in’s with, but none of those despite their moral failings came close to the kind of people I met who were of the no camp.
Many of whom also turned out to be from the Anti EU camp.
I have literally walked away from clients when they have decided to speak openly about all Muslims coming to rape the women in my family (no I am not joking, or exaggerating, I was lost for words at what they were saying, the conviction behind it and the smirking that came with it).
I cannot help but wonder, if the British Isles were to suddenly slam into the European continent making it so there were no barrier of movement and people and words and ideas,,,,, if that mentality would hold, or be so readily fostered?
The ideological echo chamber rings true, whether its an online group, a public group, or an island.
And its the kind of world where people like that vile set of biggoted racists, and the likes of Thresa May flourish.
And I dont know about you, but I want no part of it.
Kinda seems fitting here.
YES thugs terrorise staff at BBC’s Scottish HQ:
link to imgur.com
Although the NO camp is obviously where all the bigots and racists hang out, it is important to avoid demonising all NO voters (especially the soft ones, which we will need when the time comes). I now the important point the Rev is making is how we are unfairly tarred with that brush, but it is also important for us to resist the temptation to label NO voters in the same way (even if they are statistically more likely to harbour these attitudes),
What has really horrified me is the apparent willingness of yoon politicians and reporters (who really ought to know better) to play this dirty card in order to beef up their own faltering cause. Ruth the Mooth was rightly shamed at FMQ today for failing to condemn her party’s disgusting insinuation that Christian Allard had no business in dabbling in local (Aberdeenshire) politics because he was a foreigner.
Personally, I would like the Scottish Government f to go hard on this – introduce a new Holyrood bill(s) to show we mean business – give Scotland the toughest anti-racist legislation in the world. Now that is something I would be really proud of. 🙂
Perfect timing! I was preparing to reply to a unionist on this very subject. Thanks!
I’m struggling to see where the 30% to 75% figure has come from. The margins of difference for most options look quite small, with the biggest difference being 12% for the ‘Consider themselves to be Scottish’ category. Can someone explain what I’m not seeing here?
One thing does seem likely however, which is that a Brexit England, as neighbour to an Independent Scotland and member of the EU, will soon be full of people wishing to live in Scotland , and not necessarily because they have any love for the place.
For the moment, let’s just call them Brexit refugees.
With the recent increase in racist attacks in the UK post BREXIT, I think an announcement by the Scottish Government that it will not tolerate this behaviour and will be introducing new legislation (with extremely severe sentences for racist behaviour) would be timely and reverberate around the world. It would also shut up most of the blood and soil slurs currently aimed at Independence supporters.
Strange too don’t you think that around 25% of those who voted No to Independence came from rUK countries, such as England and Northern Ireland.
Beyond demonstrating the tolerance of Indy supporters, I think that poll very much over-simplifies things. The reality for many people living in the UK is that parentage, family history, place of birth and other factors are more mixed than many realise – even recent history of the people of Britain is pretty varied and complex. I wonder how many of those hard-nosed English patriots screaming about Scottish nationalism can point to a truly pure English bloodline? Very, very few, I should imagine.
Also, how to you reconcile someone born abroad to expat parents or parents serving abroad in the military during the Cold War?
I spent most of my school years in Europe during the 1970s as a ‘NATO-brat’ with no obvious ties to any UK country…living and learning with kids from numerous nationalities and backgrounds. Many NATO/military kids were born wherever their parents happened to be posted to at the time…usually in military hospitals.
I think this whole Scottish/not Scottish thing is a bore… because it’s so complex. Let’s just get on with the nitty-gritty of independence please – everyone welcome!
I have to say I find the xenophobic attitudes and narrow mindedness of unionists to be quite frightening. They seem to be permanently angry and fearful. Personally, I don’t care if they see themselves as Brits, want to support England, wave their butcher’s apron or want to be subservient to a German monarchy, but I do find their intolerance of the “foreign” and their hatred of the idea of Scotland as a free independent nation quite puzzling and scary…the parallels with Germany of the 1930’s are quite striking…especially with the bad feeling towards incomers and the proliferation of Union Jackery everywhere these days. It’s almost as if they need to reassure themselves and seek validation with red white and blue. Still…can’t really blame them as they’ve been fed a diet of myth, lies and distortion from birth. But I have to say with each passing day I feel more of a disconnect with anything described as British from their obsession with Team GB through to their permanent waging of wars and seeing themselves as somehow superiority in every way to all other people on this planet. Delusional in the extreme.
@ Rev. Stuart Campbell
I agree, I saw so many times last time that people born, but never having lived here were demanding a vote. And all, when challenged, would not move here regardless of a yes or no vote.
A bizarre and disgusting contradiction, to want a say in the affairs of another country on matters that wont affect them, while at the same time not willing to move there to justify a right to be involved in decisions.
I did try and draw parallels to the EU vote, but there was a starting factor that Scotland would not be throwing up boarders with a Yes vote that instantly threw my attempt into turmoil.
Further impacted by the factor of many people who literally commute to Europe daily or weekly, have family in Europe use their services and our own to certain equal measures.
With that the idea of denying a vote to those particular people would be a violation.
However, it was OK to deny it to people who, much like those of the IndiRef, were demanding a say in affairs they had long since abandoned, having neither worked, lived, nor contributed in anyway for many long years.
Note Brit’s living and working in Spain.
“I’m struggling to see where the 30% to 75% figure has come from”
Tsk.
If you’ve got votes of 21% and 12%, 21 is 75% more than 12.
Nicola Sturgeon wants Ruth Davidson apology in EU comments row
link to archive.is
Always nice to see a photo of Aberdeen National Front Gruppen Fuhrer Dave MacDonald.
I remember he was Dame Anne Begg’s (British Labour in Scotland) Better Together campaign pal during IndyRef1.
She can’t complain as since getting ejected from office at GE2015 she is now:
Council member of the Scottish Social Services Council (SSSC) appointedin December 2015.
and
A Non Executive Director of Grampian NHS Trust August 2016.
Why is there a higher % of NO voters than YES. Screwing the result. What were the ages, gender, EU citizen etc of the participants. Another totally irrelevant YOUGOV Poll. They might as well have made it up. They is how they make their money. Manipulating Polls.
Ruth Davidson and the 2nd rate rejects. The multimillionaire member from Deeside picking up local Gov contracts without declaring an interest. Allegedly despite repeated warning totally overcharging. Now pay back time. The company a total shambles. Not doubt trying to manipulate more business out of the Scottish Parliament. The reason they join the Tory Party. Davidson is scared they get found out. The undeclared conflict of interest
They want to frack after Osbourne destroyed the Oil sector. Taxing it at 60/80% when the price has fallen 75%. Losing thousands of jobs. Clueless. No mention of that. They can’t even count or read a balance sheet. No clue how to manage a budget.
Terence:
Many Europeans voted No because of the threat to Scotland’s position within the EU as perceived by the media. You may find a slightly different attitude next time.
On an anecdotal note, a Lithuanian friend didnt vote in Indyref even though she was eligible as she knew she was returning home and didn’t feel it was her place to influence the result. I’m sure she wasn’t the only one.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Neither blood nor soil Supporters of Scottish independence have known for years that the civic […]
[…] Supporters of Scottish independence have known for years that the civic “nationalism” espoused by the Yes movement bears no relation to the so-called “blood and soil” varieties found in many other countries. Every racist or ethnic-nationalist organisation in Britain – the BNP, the EDL, the National Front and so on – was stridently No. […]
Some of the EU citizens who voted No. That don’t want their country of origin dominated by Russia, or from Czechoslovakia which split amicable and successfully as many Alliances/Unions have down, but voted to keep Scotland in a dominate, unequal Union. After the EU vote they will now vote YES in their own interests. The next Ref might need a residential qualification. Three years?
Davidson showing her true colours. Her Union Jack drawers. Scratch the surface. Dugdale’s the same. Racist, bigoted Scotsman’s comments. Alarming.
@ In the Scottish IndyRef.
” If my theory of relativity proves true, Germany will claim me as a German citizen and France will claim me as a citizen of the world. If my theory proves untrue,France will say I am a German, and Germany will proclaim me as a Jew”—– Albert Einstein.
Nationality can be a very flexible thing dependant on circumstances.
We have never emphasised our “Yes” as liberation from British Nationalism.
“Tsk.
If you’ve got votes of 21% and 12%, 21 is 75% more than 12.”
Hmmm…
That has the ring of truthiness about it that I would usually expect to see you railing against.
Stating that there is a 75% difference in opinion suggests a gulf, but in reality, in this example, the difference would be only 9 out of every 100 people.
“That has the ring of truthiness about it that I would usually expect to see you railing against.”
Sigh. It’s precisely accurate. If I’d meant 75 points I’d have said “75 points”.
If we simplify the numbers for purposes of illustration, it’s very roughly 200 people vs 100 people (the sample was 1000). Would you have a problem with me saying 200 was “twice as many” as 100, or that it was bigger by a margin of 2:1? Because both of those are just another way of saying “100% more”.
The actual ratio in this case is 7/4, which is a clunky way of putting it. 75% bigger is what it is.
(Or yet another way: you’re my brother and we go into a supermarket. Our mum buys 11 apples and give me seven and you four. Between us we probably have no more than 3% of the shop’s entire stock of apples. Do you go “But MUM! He’s got 1% more than me!” or do you complain that I’ve got nearly twice as many as you?)
The issue of eligibility is a tough one. If I recall correctly of the different possible options, the SG chose the one that was easiest to administer and based on European elections (though I could be wrong).
I have a personal interest as I have an English Father and Scottish mother who has spent most of my life outwith Scotland. I now live and work in the Balkans. I would want to return to an Independent Scotland in the future, but do not feel I have a justification to a vote as I’m not currently paying tax as a Scottish resident. (I also have a non-EU wife, and we couldn’t return as a family to the UK under the current abusive restrictions)
There is a natural conflict here. If residency was made the criteria, this would still allow most of the NO voting ‘visitors’ who have homes here a vote. I favour somehow linking this to the tax coding. If someone DOESN’T pay taxes in Scotland, why should they be allowed to vote.
To revise the old quotation: “No Representation, without Taxation” perhaps?
Of more of an issue for me is the postal voting debacle. This needs to be far more restrictive in my view.
But whatever system is chosen, we must be prepared for the usual critisism from the media. The SG is on a no-win here, so may as well chose something that can assist the overall vote.
Hospitality and a warm and friendly welcome, yes absolutely. But the near immediate and automatic right to vote about Scotland’s sovereignty while here on a temporary stay, with no intention to remain and commit to Scotland? Name even one other country which allows that.
Nevertheless, the gulf is clear. By margins ranging from 30% to 75%, Yes voters are more prepared to welcome an outsider in as a Scot than No voters are. By a distance, it’s the Unionists who care most where you were born or who your parents were.
I would say that you need look no further than the membership and make up of the S.N.P. itself to see this fact in action. From my single brain cell memory we currently have amongst our M.P.’s and M.S.P.’s people who are from :
England
Ireland
Australia
France
Germany (actually the husband of our Irish born M.P.)
Scotland
That is just for starters. No doubt others can come up with other countries to add to this short but *ahem* interesting list. 😀
Damn it … how could I forget Pakistan? 😉
I know the M.S.P. was born in Scotland but he is from Pakistan born parents. 🙂
A bit weird, because, unless I miss my guess, I could be born in Scotland of two Scottish parents, feel Scottish, claim to be Scottish, and live here all my life, but there is no 100% agreement on me being Scottish.
What do you have to do to be considered Scottish by EVERYONE?
Interesting that there is such an agreement on the English concept of “nationality” by birth, like ‘Whose peasant are you, serf?’.
Contrast that with the support ( or otherwise) for the ‘Scottish’ / Celtic family concept of “nationality” by descent.
And as an Englishman, what a shame about the lack of enthusiasm about being Scottish because you want to be.
I wonder what the results would have looked like if the “nationality” being asked about had been British?
Perhaps the people answering were thinking about who could play for Scotland – the mind does tend to wonder when filling in one of those things.
Off message I know butStu I think you are making me paranoid
Daily record headline today;
Mum reveals agony after having to take dead newborn daughter home in car seat from hospital
It is only when you read the article it happened in Ireland – no sense the parents had a problem with it – they want to fund raise to have the child’s medical condition screened for. A very sad story but life
Is it me or is it being presented as a shock horror NHS crisis to those that do not read the article
Our reminders
And as if to keep us well aware of the fact that the Brits have more unpleasant antipathy towards anyone who may not be of a type that pleases them they announce the closure of Dungavel detention centre (welcome yes) only to promise the building of a brand spanking new shiny detention centre at Glasgow airport where it will not only be more handy for locking folk up when they get off the planes, tourists visiting our country will get to see it and that will no doubt kick off an enjoyable and welcoming visit to Scotland
I’m sure they’ll consult Glasgow City council on planning for that so we can be sure it’ll be handy for the bus stop
I do hope that this spanky new jail isn’t being paid for by Scottish taxpayers money so that the good old UK of England can just start ferrying up all the folk they’ve got in jail down there as a way of disguising their appalling record on yet another disaster of a policy, or are we just getting our Barnett share consequentials of prisoner unfortunates
Do we get to name the spanky new jail
Jaily McJaiface maybe, whatever it’s called i’m positive it’ll be well lit by our renewable energy with a very big nameplate in between the watchtowers, we don’t want to be hiding Englands ruling light under a migrant now do we
Guy who?
David Torrance @davidtorrance 27 Jun 2016
Can’t help thinking some folk getting carried away at positive noises from a former Belgian PM & an obscure Merkel adviser re: Scot/EU deal.
link to twitter.com
8 Sep 2016
Former Belgian PM to join Brexit negotiators
The European Parliament has chosen Guy Verfhostadt, the head of the liberal Alde group and a former Belgian prime minister, to be its “chief negotiator” in Brexit talks. The European Commission had earlier named former French commissioner Michel Barnier as its point man, while the EU Council is fielding Belgian diplomat Didier Seeuws. The new Brexit deal needs the “consent” of the EU parliament to go ahead in some areas.
euobserver.com/tickers/134978
Petra says:
8 September, 2016 at 2:33 pm
Strange too don’t you think that around 25% of those who voted No to Independence came from rUK countries, such as England and Northern Ireland.
As someone born and brought up in Northern Ireland to NI parents I don’t think it’s strange Petra. I’ve lived in Scotland for nearly 40 years now, feel that Scotland is my country and support independence wholeheartedly.
But I’ve lived in Scotland longer than I did in NI and got my adult view on politics here. Other folk may have had more exposure to the unionist message and we all know what a relentless drip feed process that can be that alters your viewpoint without you even being aware of it.
If you’re fed on a diet of the Tudors, Gladstone and Disraeli, the great British Empire, English football and the royal family you have a skewed view of politics and nationality. Couple this with a media totally set against any mention of the current Scottish government’s achievements and it’s not so surprising they voted no.
It does raise all sorts of questions about who is allowed to vote though. The UK controls that and thus influences the demographic.
Like others, I know of a No voter from the Republic of Ireland and even two joint UK/US passport teenagers who after their oil business dad had returned home, stayed to vote No and then returned permanently to the US.
In order to have the sort of welcoming country we want, we have to persuade those temporary and somewhat opportunistic residents who will have a vote. It also begs the question , how easily is it to proclaim yourself English, Welsh or Northern Irish and how welcome would you be if you did?
@Dr.Jim 3.29
Interesting scenario if SG block planning permission for a deportation holding shed at Glasgow Airport when Dunvegal closes.
So…
Born in Scotland
Grew up in Scotland
Both parents Scottish (as were 4 grandparents and 8 great grandparents – not looked further back than 120 years or so)
Have lived in Scotland all my 40 odd years (taking out about 3 months for holidays)
Am I ‘more Scottish’ than the guy who is 20, born of non-Scots parents and considers himself Scottish? Nope. All I can do is wax lyrical of my heritage, and bore the socks of anyone that has the misfortune to hear it. Who cares. It’s how you behave that makes you part of the society you inhabit.
So when a fart of a Prime Minister attempts to link to my country with his surname and then f**ks off home again (out of Scotland) after talking to a few oil magnates, it’s no surprise I don’t see him as remotely Scottish.
And yet, this fart of a Prime Minister is taking my country against its will along a course decided by another country (once again).
When the 530 MPs in England give the 59 in Scotland total control of Scottish matters, then the blood and soil British nationalists can voice their opinion on Scottish matters. Not before. And by then we won’t give a shit.
I have no problem with people coming here from any country and calling themselves Scottish.
The Brit Nat sycophantic thugs who burnt Scottish flags, and saluted Hitler under the Better Together Banner are the the reason I kept going for Indie 2.
When it says 1039 “Scottish” adults, by what definition?!
One group who should be 100% Yes in IndyRef2 are EU citizens. Many were frightened in IndyRef1 by the threat that Scotland might be out of the EU with Indy. Next time, the opposite will be true.
However, another group who might like to consider their options are those from rUK who are currently working or studying in Scotland at the time of IndyRef2. In IndyRef1 this group was above average NO. Next time, they should consider that as residents of Scotland at the time of Indy they could receive Scottish citizenship and therefore (we all hope ) retain EU citizenship. They have the opportunity, by voting Yes next time, to retain their birthright UK citizenship, but also gain Scottish and EU.
Clearly these are people who move for employment and study. With continued EU citizenship, they have a brighter future!
So any strongly pro EU, Remain voter from rUK resident in Scotland has more reason to vote Yes.
Nevertheless, the gulf is clear. By margins ranging from 30% to 75%, Yes voters are more prepared to welcome an outsider in as a Scot than No voters are.
Probably its the awful alchemy of yoon culture. NO change, ever, and if you try and change Scotland, you’re all kinds of shite. So people who come to Scotland to live and work are change too, ergo they get same treatment.
Its like the latest BBC Scotland GERS led blitz, Scotland’s a bankrupt black hole shithole stuff. Try and change to fix it and watch out, yoon culture comes hunting.
In the short term this kind of Scotland monstering both from England and yoon culture in Scotland, does seem to be holding the yoon line but in the long term? Well SLab are dying the death and Scottish tory greatness would hardly exist without their appalling BBC led blanket media bias.
So on all in all yoons of Scotland, don’t stop what you’re self loathing xenophobia’s compelling you to do.
And Welcome to Scotland. Not long ago a yoon Borders councillor wanted that lovely big Welcome to Scotland sign at Berwick taken down.
Guess which side of the border he was? It doesn’t matter.
OT From the mouth of Guy Verhofstadt who has just been appointed EU head of Brexit negotiations ….
link to amp.twimg.com
Can iScotland stay in the EU? “No problem”
Just watching recording of FMQs, there was a lib dem saying something and Willie Rennie was sitting behind him, do not know what was wrong with him, but looked like he was chewing a wasp.
Would not show the clip to my grandkids, that’s for sure.
Enjoyed Nicola putting Ruth the Mooth, firmly in her place,the look the Mooth had after it was gruesome,similar to wee Willie’s one.
A sign of things to come ?,not so long ago the Tories were jubilant,well,their was ass was kicked today, looks like the honeymoon is over.
Hopefully every FMQ’s, will be the same.They now hold the poisoned chalice and it is going to be heavy.
I don’t think that Scotland should be too prescriptive about who is Scottish. I with two parents qualify, my children have an English mother, but are Scottish born.
My stepson has a British passport, was born in the Netherlands (of British Parents), but whilst he is allowed to work in Spain with his Australian wife and family he could not enter the UK under the current xenophobic rules. His children cannot have a British passport and if (when) the UK leaves the EU he and his family may not be able to remain in Spain and will not be allowed into the UK. As he has a British passport and no connection with any of the 4 nations I hope he will be able to choose to be Scottish. His great grandfather was a Dundonian born and bred. His step father (me) will be happy to sponsor him and his children (my step grand children).
Complicated stuff.
I hope for an independent Scotland with practical policies that will allow anyone who lives in Scotland or has reasonable connections with Scotland to take Scottish nationality. I am cheered by this survey, it demonstrates a tolerance and open heartedness absent in South Britain.
In the meantime, whilst we wait can the Government please match every union flag flown with an EU flag flown. At the moment we remain in both unions, so if we pay homage to one we should equally pay homage to the other.
Scottish nationalism: positive and welcoming.
British nationalism: negative and insular.
Hang on, so a couple of days ago I learnt that weather forecasting (despite the much better forecasting we now have thanks to modern supercomputers) is a joke, therefore estimations like GERS are useless, but today I learn that opinion polls, which are another form of statistical based estimation…are useful and can be treated as “facts” as this article says?
It’s all very confusing.
It’s good to see evidence backing up our anecdotal stuff.
It’s up to all of us Indy supporters to set the bar high on Xenophobia. Call it out, and block them. The yoons on Twitter are mostly vile in my experience, pick a fight, denigrate etc. and therefore immune to discussion.
I’ve been on English or American timelines, and they want to say something nasty, just based on my Saltire and EU avatar, even though I’ve not engaged them, so they react just to the sight of the avatar.
The abuse Humza has on his timeline is disgusting.
I really hope SNP continue to harry Davidson, given she laughed today when James Dornan raised the Allard affair. Imagine how Press and opposition would treat SNP over this.
Off topic
I see Craig Murray has been turned down for a visa to visit the USA. He wanted to attend a conference and awards ceremony.
RT are running it constantly on their tickertape, so I checked his Blog, and there is a post up about it.
Grant says:
8 September, 2016 at 4:20 pm
Hang on, so a couple of days ago I learnt that weather forecasting
It’s all very confusing.
Well when ref 2 does come Grant, vote YES. That should make you less confused, or deconfusion you, or even unconfusion you.
You come here to live and contribute, then you’re a Scot if you want to be far as I’m concerned and welcome.
I know a few in that category who voted against independence on the grounds they were ‘saving’ Scotland from itself. Unsurprisingly, I counsel caution.
So I go abroad to a hotel in Scotland for 3 months on a business trip – I’m an electronics engineer installing a new computer system in a nearby University – and while there the country has an Independence referendum and the hotel has its Annual General Meeting. Should I have a vote in both ?
FM question’s is my favourite series…this one today was great when Ruth got a right skelp from the FM, after haudin up her usual piece o’ paper and rambling inconsequential pish…Kezia wis insipid and JackieB wis her usual smug faced pug self…aye definitely tuning in next week…
Oh..and the taster series just before the main show where Derek telt Patrick in nae uncertain terms that the council tax reforms are in line wi European directive’s wis pure brilliant, Derek just slapped him doon…whit a sight!
😉
@Grant “modern supercomputers”
You are Clive Sinclair and I claim my five… erm, Credits.
Crushing expose from the Burd…
link to imgur.com
Not only but also, if you’re not keen on Johnny Foreigner, it also enables you to turn on Scots who don’t exactly agree with you like these delights of UKness
Andrew Neil ?@afneil 19 Feb 2014
@Masked_Scot @traquir @farrochie Who are all these horrible little cybernats? So brave – as they behind their anonymity. Scum of Scotland.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Tips of the yoon iceberg but still waiting for rancid The Graun’s Teresa Thatcher’s union jack face, or Ligger tweeting about the scum of England.
Good news about Verhofstadt being the lead on negotiations, he is definitely sympathetic to Scotland, and happily posed for pics with Nicola in that first week after the vote.
The EU are definitely gearing up now with pressure, with Tusk slapping May in the face in Downing Street today. He made sure he articulated in front of all the cameras. He could have done that in private, but didn’t. Now this appointment, which all financial papers have picked up
Here is what Verhofstadt said in July.
“The only new relationship between Britain and the European Union can be one in which the UK has an associated status with less obligations but equally less rights. And if this is not feasible, the fall-back position will be an ordinary trade agreement between Britain and the EU”
Well my SNP MP was born in London to a German mother. I can see steam coming out of the ears and the diarrhoea out of the rectal openings of the Achtung Spitfire squadrons of Yoons resident in Moray at that thought.
Being serious for a moment or maybe not. It does seem that the Yoons are obsessed with DNA and we had a Yoon during the Indy Ref 1 campaign declare us as, well the Scots at least as genetically incapable of making political decisions.
I am just a little surprised that May in order to placate the genetically superior Brit Yoons hasn’t announced that there will be Calais wall and that she will get the French to pay for it.
I am also expecting that should us DNA challenged Scots decide to take a political decision to erm “take our Country back” that the Yoons will be screaming at her to build a wall and get the genetically inferior separatists to pay for it.
“Always wondered why this was the case. Did unionist Scots, on some deep level, really resent the fact that outsiders had more confidence in their nation than they had?”
Sunshine on Crieff, they also resent the fact that native Scots have more confidence in their nation. It is a constant niggling reminder that they have hitched their horse to the wrong cart and deep down there is a shame they can’t quite account for. That’s why they are so aggressive and angry all the time.
The atmosphere at Yes events is peaceful and fun. At the last one in Glasgow, as the procession passed the Novotel, a group of Japanese tourists was taking photographs of us and all the flags. Lots of waving and smiling back and forth.
Can you imagine this with the Saltire Burners?
I do think there has to be a reasonable residency qualification to stop student/holiday-homers skewing the vote, though.
If you want to be Scottish that’s good enough for me. Welcome. If you don’t then get down to Hasting’s Wall and stop holding us back. Even “Scottish” Loyalists are not really accepted down there any more than MP ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s are really liked down Sarf. Even Gordon Broon Couldnae crawl enough. They still despised him because they thought he was too Scottish. I despised him because he was too British and a bam.
Born in England, moved to Scotland 50 odd years ago. I always answer any questions about identity with; “I’m just a Fifer that was born in the wrong place!”
In that sense, I truly belong to Scotland, England is just a memory of some foreign place.
Surely with one of those computer thingies one could cross-reference all the folk what can vote in the referendum with all those who have a Scottish tax code?
galamcennalath says:
“One group who should be 100% Yes in IndyRef2 are EU citizens.”
Interesting. Someone run a poll and find out?
I have had the same history, more or less, as the Rev. I never felt I should have had a vote because no matter how much I would love to return to Scotland, my family ties to Devon (note not England!) are probably too strong now, so I didn’t think it was my right to have a say in Scotland’s future, even though I would have voted Yes, when I would not have had to live with the consequences either way.
I also found most of my No voting Scottish friends were annoyed about not voting but went quiet when I asked them if the ex pat vote had swayed the result and it turned out to be a disaster would they return to help put it right?
The only ones I had some sympathy for with was a family who still had property in the Highlands and would more than likely return to care for ailing parents.
I like to remind folk down here who talk about the SNP being anti English that it is Westminster and the establishment that we are irked by and that includes very many unionist Scots…unfortunately!
Rab interprets for the BBC…
link to imgur.com
In that sense, I truly belong to Scotland, England is just a memory of some foreign place.
Its very foreign, if you’re a prospective studento, from Scotland or the EU, fees wise. Yoon culture howls at SNP Scots.gov to start student fees, so next they’ll be shrieking away for Scottish grammar schools. Teresa Thatcher’s social exclusion, class division follow through from Thatch, Major, Bomber Blair, Pig Fancier, takes another UKOK stride forward but its all fine according to the latest and ongoing BBC broadcasts on behalf of the Conservative party.
link to bbc.co.uk
Grammar school plans ‘not a return to past’
1 hour ago
From the section UK Politics 502 comments
Its nice that on the south side of the border BBC gimps permit a comments section on their website. Viewers in Scotland dont have any comments clearly.
John Swinney announces ‘Intense’ Named Person scheme for 2017
The usual soor grapes get to comment near the end.
link to archive.is
Just as an aside to Mrs May’s problems with Brexit, the BBC reminded us today that the palaces of Westminster simply have to be renovated. MPs and the rest will have to vacate the premises for around six years, will cost anything up to £20 billion, well it is guesswork, oh, and they don’t nearly enough skilled workers to do the job.
Possibly starting in 2023, finishing in 2030 maybe, the Queen will be fortunate indeed to attend the opening. As to whether any Scots former MP’s or Peers will be invited is another story. If ever a British Prime Minister needed a crystal ball, Mrs May sure could do with one. BOC, with the train wreck called Brexit still to come, she herself may have become surplus to requirements long before then. The Empire is crumbling into the dust .
What about Professor Michael Keating, described in his Unionist piece in today’s Colonial Herald as a ‘leading’ academic (the rest of us must have been ‘following’ academics back in the day)?
He holds 3 passports; he is simultaneously Irish, Canadian, and British, according to Wiki.
He has an international CV that even Henry McLeish would envy.
“Keating was previously Professor of Political Science at the University of Western Ontario, Canada and between 1979 and 1988 taught at the University of Strathclyde.[1] He has been visiting professor in the USA, Spain, France, Australia and England. From 2000 until 2010 he was on secondment from Aberdeen as Professor of Political and Social Sciences at the European University Institute, Florence, where he was head of the department between 2004 and 2007.”
To his credit, he is a polyglot, who seems to visit Self Determination hot spots like Canada, Barcelona, and now of course Scotland, ‘leading’ academically on constitutional matters on behalf of the resident Spanish, Canadian, and now Britnat Establishments.
His latest wheeze is to argue that if we vote YES this time, there will be hard borders between one of his countries of nationality, rUK, and Independent Scotland, and that we’ll be in deep shit because rUK won’t sell us Kendal Mint, or Boddington’s Beer any more.
According to the Colonial Herald, the very thought that there might be a break up of the Single UK market between Scotland in the EU, the rUK, would create a hard border, an economic barrier to free movement of goods, services, and people, and that the mere threat by him that this act of vindictiveness would be visited upon us by the all powerful newly liberated England, would make Scottish Independence ‘much more difficult to achieve.’
He challenges: The UK single market is ‘worth four times more to Scotland’s economy than the EU single market’ No source for these wild un-academic claims BTW. Well it is the Colonial Herald after all.
This ‘leading Professor talks the usual Unionist propaganda, which the Colonial cuts and pastes, and adds, ‘has argued’, and call it journalism.
Aye right,
He seems to ‘argue’ that an independent Scotland would be viewed more harshly by the Britnats than the Top o’ the Morning, Good Day to you , Sir, nice Irish people, who seem to be promised continuing CTA status by the English Nasties.
Keating of course won’t have a problem, Michael Three Passports. We are to assume that dual nationality is now off the table for us Rebellious Scots.
Is he saying, that the negotiating stance red lines of Brexit are,fuck access to the EU single market, no freedom of movement and work for EU citizens including us Scots of many colours, and that there will be a Calais style 13 feet barbed wire fence stretching from the Isle of Whithorn to the Tweed?
I think he needs a wee chat with David Davis.
Keating is director of the Economic and Social Research Council, an academic body doling out grants to Social Sciences studies, I think. He is very much part of the English Establishment.
Who funds the ESRC Centre on Constitutional Change?
That would be the UK Government; the Department for Business and Economic Affairs, if the internet blurbs are to be believed.
Worry not, Prof, when we regain our country, you can have a Scottish passport to add to your collection.
Next time, Michael, vote JA, OUI, SI, YES.
Compris?
John Swinney announces ‘Intense’ Named Person scheme for 2017
link to archive.is
” If my theory of relativity proves true, Germany will claim me as a German citizen and France will claim me as a citizen of the world. If my theory proves untrue,France will say I am a German, and Germany will proclaim me as a Jew”—– Albert Einstein.
If the theory of my relatives proves true, I’m Scottish.
After spending almost 2/3 of my life till now living, cut off on the “wrong” side of the fog filled Channel, I could lay claim to being a citizen of Europe.
I could live with that, Scottish and European. 🙂
I’ve always considered the following definitions work in my heid:
1. Scottish, if you were born in Scotland
2. A Scot, if you choose to contribute to society in Scotland!
Simple yes, but matches my heid as I said 🙂
J
Apparently, Ruth’s party is out of control. The slur against Christian Allard was but one of a number of pretty serious gaffs and insults by the Scottish Blue Tories. The new bunch are as mad as the UKippers. No wonder UKIP did so poorly in Scotland – they all voted Tory!
Ah well, Buffalo Gall, you got your second place in May, but it’s turned into a poisoned chalice. Well, you did insist on playing a dirty Yoon card. Now you have a wild bunch of dirty yoons to control. Good luck with that one. My heart bleeds. 🙂
Born and bred in Scotland I always referred to myself as Scottish.
Many moons ago when working for a Norwegian company a head honcho (a Norwegian) from HQ was visiting our office and asked me where I was from. I replied Scotland. To which he said “ah your British”. No I replied “I’m Scottish”. To which he corrected me but “your British”. No I reiterated “I’m Scottish”. Anyway that was the gist of the conversation although in theory he was right I always associated my nationality (and proudly so) as the country of my birth and education.
I often wonder if I had replied to him that if I’m British you must be Scandanavian. I’m sure he would have replied to that retort “Oh no I’m Norwegian”.
@Takeour blueback as an English Scot I can go along with that.
In my travels over the years around Scotland I’ve met a lot of English people, and many have bought businesses, the standard being to sell their high priced house and buy a business and house for the same money. They tend to have money to invest in improving their business, and are prepared to spend it and take the risks.
Reasons for moving here vary, but getting away from the rat race is one of them, more community is another, and getting away from Westminster, a particular favourite of the many who come from Yorkshire. The scenery and outdoors is also a reason, specially for those that come from towns.
I think the continual campaign about Indy supporters being anti-English may have been a part of it, but many of course still have relatives and children back in England, and would worry about them being “foreigners”, having to have a different currency, passport controls, all those sort of scare stories. That’ll still be a problem in Indy Ref 2, and there needs to be a stronger and different targetted way of tackling it, for what does indeed represent 10-12% of the electorate, and perhaps, who knows, one more likely to vote.
Some do form English enclaves, which can be handy if you like giant yorkshire puddings and pork scratchings, but many throw their enthusiasm into community projects and councils, it has to be said, often more actively than the “locals”. I guess they feel they can achieve more here, than “back home” – and want to.
Probably the first step would be to talk to a lot of them, find out what their unique problems are with Indy, and what they would like to see done about it.
The USA is a strong country, and one of its strengths has always been its diverse nature, its immigrants, and of course without immigrants it would never have been the USA. New blood, new ideas, are always a good thing for a country, it helps that country to evolve and be resilient.
Perhaps one of the ways would be to have more “international” festivals and competitions that reflect the different original backgrounds, even including Morris Dancing! People should be made to feel proud of their origins, be it England, Ireland, Wales, Poland, France, India, Pakistan, China …
Peter Mirtitsch
The questions were cauched in terms of single things which make you Scottish.
That is the flaw in the poll.
For example, take the highest scoring single reason – born in Scotland.
That person may have been born to parents from elsewhere, returned there with them as a baby, been raised there for the the rest of their life and feels they possess the nationality of wherever that was.
Some respondents may have considered that possibility thus ruling out place of birth as an absolutely defining single reason.
I think your collection of reasons would get 100% from Yes voters if presented as such, however not so sure on No voters since I suspect to some of them Scotland as a nation or country simply does not exist at all.
Born there, raised there and feeling Scottish would probably be enough for 100% from Yessers.
No no Yesindyref2…..please….no Morris Dancing. Everything else I’m cool with but..honestly..Morris Dancing?
News about a mother who smothered her own baby because of post natal depression. I don’t want to politise this, but I bet the Unionists especially Ruth Davidson will. Their tone already is SNP Bad. FFS, is their no belt they will hit below. Seven times I have heard the Scottish Government and fout times SNP.
Why is this? Do they drag up Westminster and the Tories if this was Carlisle. Now it;s the named person scheme being put back a year. The reporter was creaming hiself reporting this Pathetic.
Now it’s childline. Dugdale doing her usual whining. Why the fuck wasn’t stv and reporting scotland blaming the fucking Labour/Liberal Government in the first 8 years of the Scottish Parliament. It’s the third SNP bad news item so far after only 7 minutes. Make it fourth. RMT rail moaning again.
It’ll be SNP bad because of the fucking wet cold weather next.
Now it’s Dungaval prison, but as it’s the Home Office, they can’t make it SNP bad. Or will they try it anyway? The mentioned the home office twice. Wonder will never cease.
Isn’t the concept of NO voters passing judgement on who is or isn’t Scottish a bit odd?
For most, probably not.
I still optimistically believe the majority of NO voters are ‘soft’. Many will in fact feel more Scottish than British. They made their choice based on what they thought was best – change the circumstances, and their choice may change.
That leaves the hard core BritNat faction of NOs. British above all else. Do they even feel Scottish themselves?
link to ibtimes.co.uk
Same MEP answered BBC Scotland dude back in June, who was clearly shaken by his answer, that there is an EU place for somewhere called Scotland.
Can a little region of the UK called Scotland, stay in the EU without having to join a queue, whimpered BBC dude?”
Guy Verhofstadt: “Yeah… so there is no problem on that side”
Re Scottishness.
Frans ten Bos died last week, aged 79. He was born in Richmond to two Dutch parents. He was then brought to Scotland when the Germans invaded Holland, and remained in Scotland until he left Fettes College.
He was deemed: “Insufficiently Scottish” to earn a commission into the Cameron Highlanders, but, joined the Argylls as a common “Jock”, was commissioned and saw active service during the Suez campaign.
He then went to Oxford University, graduated and went to work in the City of London. An Oxford rugby “blue”, he joined London Scottish, won 17-caps for Scotland, and played a crucial role, with one try and one “assist” in our first win in Wales for 35-years, in 1962.
He made a pile in the city, then retired back to Perthshire, where he died.
Frans ten Bos spent, perhaps only one-third of his life in Scotland. Was he Scottish?
You bet he was.
Wonder if Phil the Greek will have to return home? 🙂
Nah, his missus is English.
O/T
Mitch Kilbride
15 mins · Glasgow
link to google.co.uk
Failed politician JIM MURPHY’S Chief of Staff, John McTernan appeared at Glasgow Sheriff Court today – in video.
It was shown in evidence in the trial of Sean Clerkin and Piers Doughty-Brown who are accused of breaching the peace inside and outside the Labour HQ in Bath Street, Glasgow, on May 16, last year.
Susan Dalgety,aged 60, then Director of Communications for the Labour Party in evidence said:”It was an important meeting where Jim Murphy was resigning from the party officially after our worst election results in history.”
The court hears Clerkin had a placard which said:”JIM…PLEASE STAY.” and both are accused of shouting “Tory scum”.
Witness Dalgety whose address was given as C/o Police Scotland and now a Freelance Consultant we know on Social Media as a Unionist Troll on YES Scotland and Twitter.
She referred to the Scottish Resistance as the Scottish Resistance Army and claimed she did not like them in her face and calling her “a cunt” which she spelt out to the court.
It was then she sheriff warned her only to answer the questions asked.
The case is expected to end tomorrow.
(ra)
And the wummins arrogance shone throughout her evidence alligations of vile abuse not visable/audable on the 2 short phone vidio’s by the Defence & 1 vidio’d by a labour worker.
I have noticed several times now the term “EU citizen” being used to mean “immigrant”. This was how SNP MSP Christian Allard was referred to, and it has appeared in the same sense in a couple of comments above.
For God’s sake, you’d think that after 40 years of the UK being in the European Union people would know that EVERY UK resident is an EU citizen.
At least, for now.
@Bill Hume
🙂
I think most of the English I’ve talked to would be a bit embarrassesd as well!
@Chic McGregor
Yes, it can need multiple things. Another reason for being Scottish can be having gone to Uni here, even if not settled down here straight away afterwards. Thyat’s the first time for many getting away from the home environement and home background, steps to adulthood. It’s a “state of mind”, and the responses for “Consider themselves to be Scottish” are a bit disappointing, even if understandable and perhaps expected.
Paula Rose 5.09
The introduction of a Scottish tax code as part of the slight devolution of tax powers will not have been intended as the basis for identifying potential indyref voters –
but it surely makes no sense to ignore the opportunity it provides to create a fairer electoral roll than the last one.
If you are working here but not paying tax with a Scottish code, then I don’t see how you can expect to vote.
It’s funny, I was talking with someone the other day about this.
My 74 year old mother was and Still is a NO voter.
Her reasons are simple. She always identifies with being British. To me that is perfectly acceptable. I think this identity is pretty strong with her peers.
I’m far more accepting of that for a reason than for example “we canny afford it”. That assertion is down to sheer ignorance about money and economics
If you are working here but not paying tax with a Scottish code, then I don’t see how you can expect to vote.
What if you’re on the dole, married not working, teenagers, students, an actual wealthy tax dodger earning nothing and so on.
Scottish Immigration (Yoons Only) Control Centre
Latka Gravas says
“Mizz Daviscant,de lead a of the Scotties Conservatie Partie…..Kan I be Scotties ?..T’ank you Veddy much”
“No” she snapped back “no chance,you’ve got as much chance,as being the next man on moon”
Next
“Oh ffs..it’s Elvis”
About 15/16 years ago I was teaching asylum seekers in Glasgow and one of the pupils had a sister born in Glasgow. One of the teachers said, “A scottish/Somalian.” But the pupil replied, ” No, she’s a Glasgow/Somalian.”
They were grateful that Glasgow had given them a warm welcome and what better way to recognise that than claiming the baby was Glasgow/Somalian.
Headtracker 6.48
Behave!
My post was only referring to a particular group – people working here -not all potential voters.
What do you call a Scot who eagerly denigrates Scotland? Ruthsfuher Davidson? Fluffy Mundell? Dippity Dugdale? Willie whatshisname? Scum?
Identity is interesting. I am English and actively campaigned for Scotland to become independent. I really want indyref to happen for many reasons and because I am English somehow it feel totally logical.
I think my kids are Scottish (born here) and they are learning one of the the native tongues Gaelic (their paternal grandad was a speaker). My other half is also Scottish but I can’t ever say I am Scottish or Scots, somehow it feels wrong. I love it here after 20 years, and never want to move back but I am still English. I like to feel this gives me an appreciation of how wonderful it is living here, with half a life lived south of the border.
I’m not worried about people believing themselves a bit less Scottish than most or unsure about being entitled to vote.
What does worry me far more is the amount of BBC nonsense which these unfortunate people will be exposed to in the run up to any constitutional referendum.
A lot of nonsense in the original post. Take margin of errors into the small sub sample sizes and the really low levels of support for the 5 year residents on both sides, the whole article is bunkum. Stu would rip this if in the daily mail.
If non residents but born in Scotland were allowed a vote there would have been a significant impact on the Yes count.
People like me who have moved away in search of a better life and have found it can not understand how so many Scots could vote against running your own country.
It is unfortunately The Shawshank Redemption.Many have been institutionalised, they can never change.
It does not help that the media are on the side of project fear
Noted a comment higher up saying EU citizens living here voted No and a lot of them subsequently went back to their home countries anyway.
First point; never seen anything to support the latter part of that statement, so I’ll be ignoring that.
Second point; If you cannot see why EU citizens in Scotland voted No you weren’t paying much attention. The rhetoric of ‘vote No guarantees European citizenship’ must have made everything else a side issue to them. They were being told a Yes vote meant leaving the EU which would leave their position in Scotland in doubt as they’d be EU citizens in a non EU state. Now, you can laugh at that belief if you like, but the point is if you’d thought you’d be forced to leave somewhere you thought was your home you might be less inclined to look at all the arguments focusing on the one that most affects you.
2014 if EU citizens voted No I totally understand why.
Now the UK has voted for Brexit and our Scottish resident EU citizens are out (if May ever gets on with it) and they’re almost overnight converts to Yes. Why would you want to be part of a country that’s just told you ‘EU isn’t for us?’ So you take the independence for Scotland option, because you’ve seen the margin Scotland went for Remain with, and you’ve heard the First Minister saying you were still welcome here.
EU citizens in Scotland will take very little extra thought to vote Yes next time. Because Scotland voted to stay in and the noises from the EU are not unsympathetic to Scotland staying in.
OT
But it looks like Brexit negotiations will require extra popcorn supplies.
link to archive.is
The issue of whether one is Scottish or not is vital to restoring our sovereignty. For any constitutional change in the governance of our country only those persons both born in Scotland and permanently resident therein for at least one year prior should be qualified to to vote in independence referendum.
Why… because at least 15% of the the population at the time of the last referendum were pre-diposed to vote against Scotland’s independence. This group were mostly… either legal defined students; English people who retired having sold an expensive home and could buy an equal dwelling in Scotland at half the price with a remaining fat pension fund; or migrant workers here for economic reasons who wanted protect their access to the entire UK/EU employment market.
All of these people who are welcome in Scotland, choose to live here for honest, practical reasons and if they are paying taxes should be eligible to vote in national and other elections but not for for something as vital as independence. If they are entitled to vote in the next referendum then the yes vote will have to secure 65% just to achieve 50% of the vote. Of course there could be a favourable shift from the migrant vote because of Brexit in the next referendum
This will leave the independence vote to be decided by true Scots as to whether they remain British and stay stuck with all the baggage of a declining, ex-colonial world power or regain all of the opportunities and freedoms to run our country as we see fit.
How can we achieve this? First we must define what and who is Scottish for the purpose of the referendum. We should require all persons living in Scotland to apply for Scottish Citizenship status which will not only allow a vote in any constitutional matter but will allow government bodies to determine eligibility benefits and
important demographic information. This will be vital given the turbulent and fast increasing nonEU migrant and refugee problem that is engulfing Europe.
If this country is your main verified residence , you pay income tax and council tax, you have a national insurance number that can be verified you should be in the same position as scots born of scottish parents and should be able to participate in our elections .
mike cassidy says:
“But it looks like Brexit negotiations will require extra popcorn supplies.”
Definitely!
In that article Farage said of Guy Verhofstadt, “They just could not have picked a human being more negative to what we are trying to do.”
And also today Guy Verhofstadt said iScotland would have no problems staying in the EU.
Well, Verhofstadt seems pretty positive about what WE are trying to do!
I don’t honestly see the point of this poll. Being Scottish is surely not about bloodlines, marriage, place of birth, or residence.
But the real clincher is identity. Anecdotally, I seem to remember most Anglo based Scots were ambivalent about Indy..possibly because of ties through marriage etc. whilst living down South. I was glad that those 800,000 were stopped from voting, because they do not live here. I was also glad that Scotland’s closest thing to a colony..N.I with its near 1 million Ulster Scots was excluded because along with the half million Orange adherents in Scotland, we would never win indy.
No my concern is that 30 % of our own native born people adhere to being British before Scots as identity. Also the 350,000 RUK residents who are resolutely loyal to the ruling mindset of Greater England. I have travelled all over Scotland and lived beside them in a small west coast village. They will not change unless Brexit proves to be as disastrous as we all know itb will be…and Scotland Remains in the UK.
So let’s forget about who is or not Scottish other than defining who identifies as such. What really counts is the people who live here and vote for this country, their country, irrespective of origin, to be free of England’s colonial stranglehold.
I’m a 56yr old American citizen who has been resident in Scotland for 43 years. Unfortunately as a non-EU citizen I didn’t have a vote in the indy ref.
For all intents and purposes I consider myself a Scot. I went to school here and spent my whole working life here. I’m a fervent supporter of Scottish sport and can think of few places more beautiful than our West coast and Islands (midges and weather notwithstanding). My wife is Scottish born and bred, and Scotland is my home.
I have no great desire to become a British Subject (hate that word…) as I feel no affinity with “Britain” as a whole although I have a great many friends from all over the UK. My background allows me to look at the UK for what it actually is – a political construct – without the baggage of historical or religious considerations.
Given the opportunity, I would however be one of the first in line to become a Scottish citizen when indy happens. The sooner the better!!
Can I just type that this is the first time I have posted on a page, without having read all the previous comments? So, apologies if anyone has typed similar up above.
I developed a theory years ago: you can be Dundonian by birth, in which case you will always be Dundonian. You can also be Dundonian by choice, by moving to live and work in the city.
Not all ‘incomers’ will class themselves as Dundonian – some will hedge their bets; they’ll appreciate what living in Dundee is but may harbour an intent to ‘go home’ at some point in the future, shedding their Dundonian status on the train home.
Here’s somebody who is Dundonian (He wears an “EH!” badge)…
And here’s somebody who’s Dundonian by choice…
link to thecourier.co.uk
link to caltonjock.com
@Glenn
Well said. 🙂
Scottish is as Scottish wants to be.
Guy Verhofstadt is very good news for us.
It seems that now the tories have finally come back from their holidays, they are not exactly feeling the worldwide love and respect which they think that they are due.
‘…A lack of understanding by at least some U.K. ministers over how the union works and unwillingness to believe what they’re being told by their civil servants …’
link to bloomberg.com
@ Mike Cassidy 8:00
This is Nigel Farage complaining about the insulting appointment of Guy Verhofstadt as EU’s Brexit negotiator.
This the same Nigel Farage who made that toe curlingly embarrassing attack insulting Herman van Rompuy as President of the European Council. What an arrogant prick of a man we have in Farage. The man who agitated Xenophobia in the UK, prompted the referendum which drive the UK into the Abyss, then promptly resigned so someone else was left to deal with the fallout.
Guy Verhofstadt is also the man who said there would be no problem for Scotland to remain in Europe, and also it was Verhofstadt who pointed out that Brexit wiped more value off the UK economy than 15 years of EU contributions from the UK.
See that mobile phone number on the photo 07876014313, would be a disgrace to use on a data mining web form. Also noted from Jockanese Wind Talker says:
8 September, 2016 at 2:40 pm
Always nice to see a photo of Aberdeen National Front Gruppen Fuhrer Dave MacDonald
I would agree that you should be allowed to vote if your normal permanent residence is in Scotland and has been for at least a year.
We also really need to weed out the second home owners who are not normally resident in Scotland but because they own a second home feel they are entitled to vote or may even get two votes.
Postal votes only if you are genuinely unable to vote [ill health or disability (blue badge)] and not just because you cannae be arsed getting your arse out your comfy seat.
To finish, a saying from my now long dead father
‘Just because you were born in a stable doesn’t make you a horse.’
?
nephew said that during indy ref RUK students got together to vote NO particularly from Edinburgh Uni, St Andrews. Suggest foreign students residency should be at least 5yrs.
Brian Doonthetoon at 8.47
I will always be a Glaswegian. There is no escape from that.
TJenny. Listen out for Dusty on my programme tomorrow night (8pm – 9pm “Not Fade Away” rock’n’roll on Argyll Independent Radio http://www.argyllradio.co.uk.
7pm – 8pm I have the interesting pleasure of the company of Andy Anderson,the author of “Defending Democracy” – now known as the Dunoon Report – answering questions about his forensic examination of the postal voting figures and the huge concerns about these which continue to grow
Everybody who voted Yes is either Scottish, wants to be Scottish or is comfortable with whoever they are
Everybody who voted NO wants to be something else because of the great Scottish “Cringe Factor”
Yoons keep talking about the word “foreigner” as if it’s a bad word when all it actually means is something or someone not of, when they bang on about Independence will make your family in England foreigners as if that’s a dirty word in the way THEY use it when THEY talk about everybody else
If I go to London for example it’s foreign to me because I don’t know the place, in fact I’d be an alien there, same the other way round for a Londoner if they came to Glasgow, so what’s the obsession with the word, it’s not sweary or nasty but the YOONS try to make it so in order to sound unpleasant
It’s always been a trait of the Great UK of England’s establishment and media to use normal words and bastardise them to demonise other folk (Frogs Gerries Krauts Argies Spics Wops Fuzzy Wuzzies Darkies Micks Taffies) and let us not forget their favourite people, YANKS and of course us, the Sweaty Socks Jocks See you Jimmys
It’s funny though over years of using all these types of abusive terminology against other folk and the sticks and stones, everybody else has developed stronger bones because of it
Eventually it works no more
In independent Scotland, it will not matter at all what ethnicity one regards onself as.
Some dinosaurs will continue to regard themselves as “North British”.
But I have come to the conclusion that Scotland will not become independent anytime soon unless a restriction is put on who can vote in a future independence referendum.
No vote for English holiday home owners for example. Loads of them were given a vote in the last referendum.
Very strict restrictions on postal votes.
Vote only to those living here and who had at least one grandparent born in Scotland.
Exclude the vote from the likes of JK Rowling.
‘Just because you were born in a stable doesn’t make you a horse.
That was Wellington. One curiosity of teamGBness is that most Scots can tell people from England where they’re from in England by their accent. Its a fun game to play as it often surprises them that you can almost pinpoint not just what part of England they’re from, but what city, and what part of that city.
It almost never works the other way round at all and it totally reflects the cultural domination of England over Scotland. Bit mad but its still an oddity of UKOK land, if you’re a Scot.
Also, watching JC and Smith debate on BBC 1, no one, debaters and audience, have a clue why SLab is on the down escalator, but its clearly all poor old JC’s fault.
Macbeda at 9.22
‘Just because you were born in a stable doesn’t make you a horse.’
I think that phrase has long historical background. I believe Joseph said it to young Jesus when he caught him eating all the carrots
“only those persons both born in Scotland and permanently resident therein for at least one year prior should be qualified to to vote in independence referendum”
That’s a bit of a shame for my YES voting wife from Independent Ireland, and all those who are forced to work away from Scotland for a time because of a lack of a job here.
Could take the “born in Scotland” requirement back 10 generations, maybe even 20, and then by my calculations there are only 7 people who will actually be able to vote, and they probably come from Moidart.
I hope all 7 are YESsers!
Much as I respect much of what Corbyn says I cannot see strong leadership quality.
I think with the snubs and ridicule that the Tories and Brexiteers have begun to experience in the global community, there is a danger they will don the tin hats and retreat into their bunker and adopt the Rangers attitude:
“Everybody hates us, but we don’t care.”
Bunker mentality: Does not bode well. Even if the EU would welcome Scotland remaining a member and staying in the UK, there is no way WM would tolerate this. “We are leaving Europe, Scotland, and you are coming with us”
“Clearly, NO voters were aware of this possibility when they voted in 2014”
And by the way, if the EU is used to justify IndyRef2, do you think the Electoral Commission are going to allow lots of Foreign EU citizens living in Scotland to vote? Think again.
To get a vote in the our ref. all you needed was 12, 12 bloody days residency. Or, an address you could have a postal vote sent to.
In Ireland, in their refs, which are built into the constitution, you have to prove residency, by utility bills, AND, your passport, an Irish one obviously, to prove you are who you say you are.
If we do NOT have something to show those wishing to vote have a bond with this Nation, say 4-5 years utility bills, With reasonable consumption figures all year, not a spike for 3 weeks every year. NO students allowed a vote, Edinburgh central springs to mind.
Without controls, we are going to get gubbed again. And I for one would think twice about putting in hundreds of hours and contributions for another defeat.
Imagine if Tommy Sheridan had been head of YES, instead of the lacklustre, colourless Blair Jenkins. BTW, who actually appointed him.
Just watched Question Time. The way I see it Jeremy is a credible leader and Owen’s a pr1ck. Anyway it doesn’t matter coz they’re not our problem in Scotland. We have miles better leadship in the SNP. Thank god for them!!!!
Watching Corbyn Smith debate for first the tonight as nothing better to do for a rare change
Corbyn had to continually remind Bubbulbee that he had the right to reply to questions too
It’s so obvious that Dumbeldee hasn’t a clue about anything except the ideas he supports and does not give a shit how that looks to anyone else as the BBC management probably agree with him
It’s not just Scotland
Has anyone been following the EBC’ s uncritical coverage of Turkey in Syria and their traducing of the Kurds?
The EBC is shot
Glesca Keelie: “In Ireland, in their refs, which are built into the constitution, you have to prove residency by utility bills, AND, your passport, an Irish one to prove you are who you say you are. Without controls, [authenticated credentials] we are going to get gubbed again.”
Seconded, without reservation.
Sorry for going O/T and apologies if this has already been mentioned.
Apparently the date for this year’s Autumn statement has been announced and is will happen on … *drum roll* … on November 23rd. 😉
Now I’m no season expert but is the end of November not in WINTER? 😉
Surely this statement should be renamed the WINTER statement. 😀
link to gov.uk
We hear lots about people applying for other passports they may be due in order to keep EU citizenship.
Everyone who is resident in Scotland when Indy comes will not only be entitled to a Scottish passport, but that will also give them EU citizenship.
rUK students studying in Scotland should consider that voting Yes, and the dual citizenship that will lead to, will give them free movement to work anywhere in the EU.
Many of the rUK compatriots would jump at such an opportunity as Brexit approaches.
The carrot is always better than the stick.
Corbyn had to continually remind Bubbulbee that he had the right to reply to questions too
He even changed the question about honours into are you a republican JC? JC bottled it though.
After a life time of red and blue tory policy for an extraordinary inequality in incomes and living standards, in the UK, will PM JC make any difference to the glorious and ongoing Snatcher Thatcher tory project? Meh. Red tory Bomber Blair and Crash Gordo’s generation showed there is probably no going back.
BBC 1 10 pm news on now and is just a long dreary party political broadcast on behalf of the Conservative party, BBC gimp in Switzerland says Brexit teamGB could be like Switzerland now.
Exciting times for all UKOK mountaineers and yodellers.
Grouse Beater @10-14pm
‘Thirded’!!
If the SG haven’t learned that it is important to block as many avenues as possible for ‘rogue’ votes, then I give up!
There were so many dodgy votes in 2014, postal, holiday homes, care homes, students etc etc , because of lax rules. Hopefully the FM is on top of this for next time.
yesindyref2
“Yes, it can need multiple things. Another reason for being Scottish can be having gone to Uni here, even if not settled down here straight away afterwards. Thyat’s the first time for many getting away from the home environement and home background, steps to adulthood. It’s a “state of mind”, and the responses for “Consider themselves to be Scottish” are a bit disappointing, even if understandable and perhaps expected.”
My bar is I think, quite low. Residency and intent to remain is sufficient provided of course, they are doing so because they on balance like what they find here and are not on a mission to ‘correct’ Scottish culture.
I too was surprised at only 38% thinking if they considered themselves Scottish that suffices.
However, I think the failure to distinguish between resident and non resident in the poll might be a factor here.
I’m sure we have all met ex-pat descendants, say from the USA on ‘vacashun’ who say “I’m Scattish. My great great granpappy came from Edinborrow in 1897.”
So we look at their tartan (read plaid) attire and their clan badge and smile sweetly (what can you do?). But really we are thinking “Scottish? Hmmmm.”
OTOH I’m sure we all know folk who say “I’ve been here for more than half my life, I feel more Scottish than Xish now.” and you simply think “Guid.”.
@Luigi: “And by the way, if the EU is used to justify IndyRef2, do you think the Electoral Commission are going to allow lots of Foreign EU citizens living in Scotland to vote? Think again.”
It’s not the Electoral Commission who decided the franchise of Indy Ref 1, it was the Scottish Parliament, in the Referendum Franchise (Scotland) Bill.
link to parliament.scot
The more you read about EU attitudes to the UK and Brexit, the more you realise the UK (or rUK we hope) are in for a big shock!
It looks like the Brexit deal will have to be agreed with all 27 members, each having a veto.
Already Ireland and Spain will veto if there aren’t open borders.
Sounds like Poland, Czech Rep, and Hungary will veto if there isn’t free movement of labour.
And, I’ve seen suggestions that UK companies will only be allowed to trade freely only it pays into the EU’s budget.
That implies the UK will have a choice between very soft Brexit where very little changes but they won’t have any representation, and a hard Brexit of walking away with nothing initially agreed.
For instance, the Czech view ….
link to archive.is
Glesca Keelie @ 9.58pm
Fully agree with this. The ref in 2014 was constitutionally so important and significant for Scotland I was surprised every man and his dog was allowed to vote without the main provisos as highlighted by you in your post.
Certainly the EU ref qualifying criteria was much more strict and applied in full.
Agree with Sassanach at 10.28pm on the lax rules that lead to so many people that should never have qualified to vote did. And look at the outcome that gave us.
To have a play on the the 5 year residence numbers (the most extreme example that Stu could find to allow him to use 75%), with a 5% error rate for that sample size, it could be either 270% one way or 6% the other. But so what, as the BTL comments show, no one knows if this is a bad thing or a good thing?
So in summary, different people think different things, and with no qualifying data or context, it means fuck all.
Luigi says:
at 2:33 pm
“With the recent increase in racist attacks in the UK post BREXIT, I think an announcement by the Scottish Government that it will not tolerate this behaviour and will be introducing new legislation (with extremely severe sentences for racist behaviour) would be timely and reverberate around the world. It would also shut up most of the blood and soil slurs currently aimed at Independence supporters.”
Disproportionate, politically motivated sentencing policy always ends well. Not.
Here lies fascism.
Try blaming the messengers instead. The Mail ect are always good for a bit of xenophobia, but almost the entire MSM, Auntie included, played along with the way immigrants are portrayed as being at fault for all ills.
Nothing to do with the neo-liberal status quo here and in Europe either obvs ! Cheap plumbers are good, after all.
—————————————
jimnarlene says: (& Macart)
8 September, 2016 at 2:03 pm
“You could be from a distant galaxy, far far away, if you come here to live and wish to be Scottish, then welcome.”
Hear hear.
Not long back from Depute Leader Hastings
Great night, great turn out. All 4 speakers brilliant and offer something slightly different.
My complaint? They are so good, I’m struggling now as to who to vote for.
O/T
1. Look,there’s a squirrel. GRAMMAR SCHOOLS.
2. Look there’s an elephant. Labour Party Corbynists anti Semitism misses the elephant called Palestine being the voctim of Israel which indeed does have a large Jewish population.
3. Look there is an elephant in the room. Named person is a communication problem addressing a communication problem in child welfare? Yes and it is called the “Scottish” Daily Mail and Daily Express.
@Gfaetheblock
You really need to read this, your first comment was wrong, your second comment even worse:
link to en.wikipedia.org
In wester Ross tourists are referred to as visitors. There is even a summer magazine called the visitor to help them enjoy their holiday.
Different mind set.
Don’t hear so much talk any more about in comers and white settlers. They are still there though. Come to the highlands with some sort of Lilian Beckworth idea of Scotland. Expect every to change to suit them.
It’s like the ones in England that move to the country. Then complain about the church clock and want it to stop chiming at night. Why did you buy a house next to a church with a fucking great clock in its tower.
“Nevertheless, the gulf is clear. By margins ranging from 30% to 75%, Yes voters are more prepared to welcome an outsider in as a Scot than No voters are. By a distance, it’s the Unionists who care most where you were born or who your parents were.”
I am not sure I agree with the conclusions reached. Surely this only works if you consider being Scottish as something to be proud of, something desirable that either you are born with or you can achieve by living here amongst the Scottish people.
That is how I feel but I can imagine a fair number of unionists answering “does not make someone Scottish” to every single question out of a kind of ‘fuck-you we’re British’ approach. And if you are English living here, working or retired you may have no desire to be assimilated and become Scottish after 10 years. There is nothing wrong with that of course!
Yes voters are happier to grant Scottish nationality on people who elect to live here but I suppose many No voters see Scottishness in much more neutral, purely geographical or ethnic terms and were answering the questions in a more dispassionate, even disinterested way.
Yes voters are welcoming to people who want to join our country and the Yes campaign was all about inclusiveness- we were at pains to be an inclusive movement. Perhaps the combination of the yes voters’ principle of inclusion and the No voters’ lack of enthusiasm for Scotland and being Scottish explains the significant disparity rather than some kind of clique mentality on behalf of the no voters.
I have to admit that I could answer the questions in two ways- as a proud Scotsman and Yes voter or in a completely neutral dispassionate way. ‘What gives people the right to call themselves Scottish’ (which is how I first read each question) is subtly but clearly different from ‘Which of the following makes a person Scottish’
That is how I read it anyway even if I fear I haven’t expressed myself well.
OT Delighted with the appointment of our friend Guy Verhofstadt as head of EU brexit negotiations. We could not have asked for a better appointment. It makes all those who sneered at Nicola’s diplomatic mission to Brussels look a little bit foolish.
In all the usual politics of today by far the most important was the appointment of Guy Verhofstadt as Brexit Chief Negotiator for the EU.
He is the man who says Scotland would have no problem remaining in the EU if we wished, and now he is in the most important position to tell Theresa May a few home truths.
I hope that Nicola, Alyn Smith and all spend as much time as possible strengthening their contact with the good Guy who will be at the heart of all negotiations.
With one sentence he has destroyed the argument that Scotland will have to go to the back of the queue to join the EU.
As I said this is super-important. Make sure you spread the word.
Just to clarify because I haven’t expressed myself clearly- I think that Yes voters and No voters were answering different questions in this poll and so it makes it difficult to compare the results.
Just seen the latest figures about the SNP’s National survey. 😉
link to twitter.com
Mmm, from that Yougov poll here’s an interesting one. In the question about British versus Scottish, for those that voted YES in 2014 there was 5% “other”, whereas for NO it was 2%.
On top of that there’s no English category, which means 10% are virtually forced to go for British, other or don’t know.
yesindyref2
Didn’t read the whole wiki page as am a 6 sima black belt and don’t need wiki to refresh at this time of night. Want to point out where I went wrong for more than a minor rounding error as I am not sure what point you are making?
Happy for you to rework the numbers here, but unless you post more than a url as a rebuffal, I will assume that you agree with me.
Has anyone ever called the number on the NF banner? I was wondering if someone answers saying, “Hallo, Aberdeen Van Hire” or something like that. I mean, that’s definitely not a staffed hotline. I actually googled the number and got taken to the NF contact page. Geez, they can’t even standardise the email addresses of their regional “offices”. Some at hotmail, some at gmail, some even at a nationalfront domain but most regional groups opted not to use that, perhaps out of shame. Even the nationalfront domain is a mess because they purchased a .org and a .info and appear to use them randomly. Utterly pointless. They can’t even agree on a standardised prefix so you have walesnf@blah.co.uk but then westmidlandsnatfront@blahother.com. You would think people as patriotic as that would at least have chosen .co.uk addresses. Then at the bottom of the page it says that it isn’t a complete list of regional contacts. Why would they not publish a complete list? It’s not as though the list is so huge that there isn’t space on the internet for it. Is it because prominent members in the NF struggle with phone numbers and email addresses? Perhaps their address is the back of a pub. Or a prison.
It’s so obviously just a bunch of lonely weirdos for whom organisation means sharing the cost of a KFC bucket meal.
Arbroath
I love the fact that there are irate individuals expressing disbelief that 300,000 people have completed the survey when there are over 120,000 SNP members and only a couple of months ago over 1 million voted SNP. Not only that there is every possibility that grumpy nawbags like themselves have also completed it.
If was 30 million that had completed it they might have a point 🙂
@Tam
Don’t think so, looks like they answered the same questions from the data tables
link to d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net
@Gfaetheblock
Sorry, I was a statistician in a previous life, not a tutor.
@Fireproofjim.
Alyn Smith has worked closely with Verhofstadt for a number of years, so that relationship is there, as well as his other strong contacts in EU.
I think Alyn will be getting my vote for Depute, he is a very strong character, and opens so many doors in EU.
What I think is amazing HaS is that the survey only started this week and it has already reached the staggering heights of 300,000 responses. We have till St. Andrews night still to go. I daren’t even begin to imagine what the figures will look like after the survey has closed. 😀
@yesindyref2
I think Tam was pointing out that the same question might be interpreted completely differently by Yes and No supporters.
The Tories have forsaken the Back to the Future De Lorean Time Machine and are now using a Morris Traveller to take themselves back to Grammar Schools and the old you’re a clever kid and you’re an idiot kid system
I can hear the bell clang and feel the swipe of the cane now sir
It’s the rise of the Farages and a Twiggy front page showing her “Bits” Flares and smoking in pubs is on the way back to boost the economy and good old English way of life
Bobbies on bicycles two by two
The Internet and the media are full of opinions about Brexit. Of these, only a few are in any way reliably informed, and even less can be classified as being the opinion of an expert. The media in general are not interested either in informed opinion or, even less, in expert opinion. The general public therefore is denied access to reliable expert opinion – as a rule. Instead, the public are fed lies in myriad forms of untruth and obfuscation.
But when we do find expert opinion, as here – link to news.sky.com,
it becomes clear that unless Brexit is reversed, the UK is about to re-enact, figuratively speaking, the last days of the Titanic.
For Scotland the advice could not be clearer nor better – get into the lifeboat named Scottish Independence.
For the benefit of others, the yougov survey sampled 1039 people of age 18 or over, and that related to the whole population is reckoned to give a “margin of error” of 3 percentage points (not 3%). That’s to give a “confidence interval” of 95%, a standard accuracy point in statistics, though for more reliable work in statistics proper, people would go for a 99% interval.
When people are sampled, it’s usual to use a normal distribution, which kind of like a vertical plook without the crusty bit on top. It has a curve out each side of the peak, the tails. Some statistical methods “top and tail” the stats to eliminate spurious samples, but I don’t think yougov do that.
In general the confidence interval of 95% means either that 95% of a population will be within that central part of the curve, or that the sample has a 95% probability of representing the whole population it’s taken from.
Personally I despise the term “margin of error”, as that is more usually used in science for accuracy of measurement or calculation, but there you go, that’s psephology for you.
Margin of error in polls is taken to mean that if the calculated whole population percentage comes out at say 47%, then it could lie within 44% and 50% with a 95% probability – the usual accuracy for surveys. But it could even be 40% or 60%, though less likely.
The second reason I don’t like “margin of error”, is that it makes it look equally likely to be 44%, 47% or 50%. Well, it ain’t, the highest probablity – the peak of the curve of the normal distribution would be in that case, 47%. So it’s more representative of the whole population than the term “margin of error” implies.
Phew, time for a cuppa tea.
Oh, the more people sampled, the less the “margin of error”. 2,000 odd would give a 2% margin of error, whereas 500 would give about 5%.
Chic McGregor & yesindyref2
You put it better than I have, Chic. Although everyone is presented with the same question our reading of that question can be different. Most of us (and indeed Stu’s article) are based on reading the question as essentially who has the right to call themselves Scottish.
That is not the question asked and indeed I would not be surprised if most unionists read the question in a more simplistic, literal and dispassionate way.
Oh yeah, the big problem is trying to get a sample representative of the whole population. Sampling a vegetarian society for their favourite meat is likely to be a bad idea.
On identity – being Scottish is as much a state of the heart as it is an accident of birth. I know people of another parish who identify as Scottish and have no desire to be anything else. I see no problem with that.
It is equally true that people can leave these shores and take up another identity and become Canadian or American etc. and never look back.
My four grandparents were Lithuanian so that makes me a genetically pure Lithuanian as many Gorbalians are! However, I see no reason to not call myself Scots by birth and culture. The important point is that I do not see myself as ‘Brittish”, an engineered cultural concept. To be Scots in an independent Scotland seems to me to be ‘pure’ logic!
Look, I even spelled that horrible word wrong!
There are Scots, Old Scots, Native Scots, Angelo Scots, Asian Scots, Irish Scots and many others… and then there are New Scots the shivering huddled masses who like Americans just arrived at Elis Island will help grow this country into something wonderful if we take them into our hearts and flourish.
@Gfaetheblock
Actually, if you are 6 sigma, don’t try to apply a manufacturing or production QA / QI “margin of error” interpretation to the poll stats, see my reply above for my opinion.
Oh, and in my humble opinion, the wiki is crap for the poll margin of error, sorry about that! I should have looked at it first …
Flippin ech!
Labour councillor given top civic job after closed doors toss of a coin
link to archive.is
Sturgeon warns Scotland facing ‘decades of Tory rule’ as she bangs drum for referendum
link to archive.is
Upon Scotland restoring her independence..
It may be appropriate to rename Great Britain, to New Britain?
Everyone’s a winner baby that’s the truth.
“Nigel Farage nemesis Guy Verhofstadt appointed Brexit negotiator for European Parliament”
Aye – this is the “minor official” who welcomed Nicola just after Brexit referendum.
Is it just me or does anyone else think that Nicola and the SNP have been planning for Brexit since 2014 and are at least three steps ahead of the Tories on every aspect of Brexit?
There is a Perfect storm ahead – Brexit is going to be a disaster for the UK no matter how the MSM spin it and the end result will lead to Scottish Independence.
Tick tock – indyref2 is coming. This time we will win.
I wish no disaster to the rUK: just independence for Scotland.
Valerie @ 12.03.
Alyn Smith came to our branch meeting in February and I was impressed. I have always leaned towards him for the Deputy leadership contest now I am convinced, especially since Guy Verhofstadt is now in the negotiating team and Alyn is an ally.
It’s all looking good for Scotland in the EU.
Cactus, can I offer a new title: ‘Not So Great Britain’. I find that it rolls of the tongue smoothly unless you are having a giggling fit.
@Cactus,
New Britain?
Seems like the Tories want to go back in time to the Victorian era and the Days of Empire.
The Empire of South British may be more geographically correct?
Well South Britain – as they will find out shortly that there is no empire!
@Peter Barjonas
I do not wish disaster on South Britain either but it will happen as the Tories are completely deluded about their economic importance to the EU and the Commonwealth.
I cannot think of two worse people to lead the negotiations than Boris Johnson and Liam Fox. Two arrogant patronising bastards with not one iota of diplomacy between them.
That is why it will be a disaster.
Cactus, I could not agree more with your comments. It may be premature but I just feel divorced from ‘down there’
A few weeks back I was in a coffee shop in Glasgow city centre and spotted a Sunday Herald on the paper rack. There was a picture of Nicola on the cover but someone had drawn a Hitler moustache, along with the word ‘Bampot’. Further down, in jagged handwriting, were the words Scottish Nazi Party, with capitals emphasised. It made me feel a bit uneasy and although I had fancied a quick read-through I decided to score out the graffiti and put the paper back whence it came.
At first I asked myself who would do such a thing and why? But I could quite easily guess what kind of mind had put pen to paper in defence of the realm. I think it should be safe to say here on Wings that hardcore unionists tend to display certain traits.
From time to time I have entered into conversation with a few without revealing my own leanings. One example was a guy (closely related to a former branch leader) who I had chatted with before about rock bands from the 70s. He wore a Hawkwind T-Shirt which made me think he’d be pretty broad-minded. Boy was I wrong. One particular day he just let rip about what he thought of ‘all these foreigners coming over here etc etc’. What he came out with was pretty brutal. And this wasn’t one of your OO types, as we’d already clarified where our schooldays had been spent. My guess was that he’d been overdosing, not on the wacky, but on those deadly substances known as The Black Top Tabloids.
The thing about polls is that people don’t answer them honestly. They’re always looking for the right answers. Or at least the ones that will make them look good. It’s more interesting when people let their guard down. Then you get to see the Monsters from the Id.
Aye me too Peter & Hoss, I’ve never recognised meself as British, only ever Scottish.
The {r}United Kingdom is gonna have to rebrand itself one way or another.
We’ll be indepenent Scotland.. England and Wales will then be free to be whatever they wish to be.
Good time for Countries to borrow. Yesterday: “Ireland’s National Treasury Management Agency sold €1 billion ($1.12 billion) of 10-year bonds at a yield of 0.33%, down from 0.817% at the previous offering in April. That was a record low at that maturity.” (WSJ)
Makes you think, if Scotland was independent we could be borrowing to our heart’s content to invest in growing our economy, as investors are desperate not to have to actually pay to store money.
So, of course, could the stupid Osbornomic austerity-mired UK.
That’s actually quite distressing, considering we could have been Independent earlier this year. The yield on Ireland’s bonds have dropped from 4% in 2013. But Unionists still go on about how much it would cost Independent Scotland to borrow compared with the UK. Well they can shove this up their collective head blocked arses:
(WSJ) “Yields on government bonds across the developed world have plummeted, many into negative territory, as central banks buy sovereign debt and expectations remain low for the inflation that would erode the value of these investments. Yields fall as prices rise.
That is bringing down the cost of raising money for governments and allowing even countries with lower credit ratings and weaker growth prospects to raise cash at ever longer maturities. Spain, Belgium and France have all sold 50-year bonds in public markets. Italy is talking to investors about its own debut 50-year issue, and is able to despite market concerns about the country’s economic growth, banks and a coming, potentially market-rattling referendum.”
I really really really was dead set against UDI because of its problems being recognised internationally, not forgetting its Democratic deficit.
But could we do it Monday please, tell the UK to stuff its debt which is its debt anyway, issue a cool £100 billion of sovereign debt (so to speak) at negative around 0.5% yield, stuff half of it in our brand new shiny Central Bank to underwrite our new currency, and sail away under Brand Scotland living happily for the rest of our days?
Please? Pretty please?
@ Cactus,
How about ‘ Lesser Britain ‘.
@yesindyref2
Yes Ireland’s cost of borrowing is low at present but that is dependent on outside factors since it doesn’t have a sovereign currency.
A much more resilient (and insolvency proof) solution is to have our own floating currency. Interest rates will always remain at level determined by our central bank. In uncertain times folk will always buy debt when it is backed by a sovereign central bank. These bonds are far safer than the electronic money in your bank account which is not legally yours but a liability of the bank to you.
The Bank Of England now owns one quarter of the nation’s debt simply by punching in new reserves into a computer. This is why folk will always buy UK govt bonds – the country can never default.
On subject of money, there is a great speech by Martin Wolfe of the FT in the following debate about Iceland adopting a sovereign money system…
link to positivemoney.org
Wolfe refers to the UK banks as semi public corporations, simply because the government and public purse is always in readiness to underwrite them.
We should be shouting this from the rooftops.
Highly recommend watching. He’s 3rd speaker on I think.
@yesindyref2 says: 9 September, 2016 at 12:23 am:
“For the benefit of others, the yougov survey sampled 1039 people of age 18 or over, and that related to the whole population is reckoned to give a “margin of error” of 3 percentage points (not 3%).”
That point, yesindyref2, is neither here nor there in relation to YouGov.
Just by pure chance I posted the real point several days before their present survey went into the public domain. No matter what the statistical error factors of their particular data happen to be their whole methodology is no more than a very bad joke.
Why anyone would give any credence whatsoever to anything YouGov claims is idiotic. The whole point of opinion polls is that they MUST BE a totally random sample to begin with.
YouGov don’t do random samples and neither do most of the rest of them. YouGov surveys from a list of signed up, and paid for, members of the public. Not only are they not random but YouGov can select those on their list most likely to give the answers either YouGov or the client who commissions the survey wants.
Mind you, with the advent of computers, mobile phones and the internet, no company can claim a totally random sample. The days of the vast majority of households owning a landline phone are long gone so totally random survey is a thing of the past but even the past was rather iffy anyway.
Back then even access to a land-line phone excluded certain sections of the public. As for the old, stop people in the street, method – that could be fiddled by choosing the streets they stopped people to survey. Imagine doing a political survey by stopping people to survey in Edinburgh’s Morningside.
What about so called random phone surveys? That would be surveying a mainly older. and non-social media aware, group as most folks now hardly ever use a land-line phone.
However, the most fixed survey company of them all are without doubt YouGov. As a, “science”, opinion polls are basically unscientific before they even start asking questions.
Our colonial masters like us to follow their lead, don’t they
They didn’t allow EU citizens living in the UK to vote in their Brexit Referendum, as they would likely vote to Remain.
Holyrood needs to apply that same reason to IndyRef 2,
Scottish and European Votes for Scotland in Europe.
Apologies for responsible English citizens living in Scotland, but Westminster has never been fair to Scotland
and we put at risk our Independence, European citizenship and our economy by not operating the Westminster way.
Scottish Key Electoral Legislation Programme. (SKELP) lol
@Yesindyref2 4.41am
LOL 😀
It is a bit of a sickener, but it gives you a heads up as to the why of the current strategy by the parties and their meeja. Look over here at this, do’t look over there at that. Don’t look at the opportunities you could have had in other words.
Its not subtle, but among the more ‘dedicated’ of their support and readerships, its enough to confirm their world view and keep them onside for what is probably right around the corner.
That and its all they have left. The push from the unionist politician is all about NOT losing their vote as opposed to say, converting others to it. I think they know the conversion bit is beyond them at this point.
The best decisions are made for a country by the people who live in it. All the electorate with a residential qualification – 3 years. For those who are only temporary transitional residents. They will not be affected by the decision. Democracy only came to Scotland in 2000. Holyrood.
IndyRef2 should be organised and managed by the SNP who have the necessary organisational skills and experience for success. Control should not by handed off to a handful of incompetent, naive Greens etc. Out to feather their own nest.
RE The TV debate on Labour Leadership.
The Smith guy is a complete and utter imbecile!
He doesn’t think Corbyn has enough charisma about him to win
an election? This is the none entity damps squib that no one has heard of talking?
He also didn’t think the Labour audience in Scotland should be disrespecting their elected e Scottish Leader, Dipity Dug, but can’t see that he is disrespecting their elected UK leader?
Last night he established that he wouldn’t work with Corbyn, should he be elected leader for the second time in 2 years, and he would not accept the Brexit Vote?
So he doesn’t believe in democracy then!
If he was to win a general election, could the Tories apply the same rule and refuse to acknowledge the result?
Corbyn, and the membership, want Labour to return to their Left of Centre politics. Most of their Right wing MP’s and the UK media are willing to do anything to keep all the
English voting options Right wing.
How can that party continue with a majority of MPs who don’t want to accept the party leader, the members wishes,
or any Left of centre policies?
They are finished.
@ Yesindy ref2, Interesting that you’re a statistician. Was wondering if you would take a look at something I came across and Stats are beyond my ken. I did post it on here quite a while ago but would appreciate someone looking at it with “seeing eyes”.
link to facebook.com
link to piratepress.org
A great event for all Scots, Europeans and others in Edinburgh on Sunday with music, food and drink stalls and top speakers plus children’s activities.
Edinburgh in Europe event – Sunday 11th September – Bruntsfield Links – 12noon – 4.30pm
This is a free event, celebrating Edinburgh’s role in Europe through its cultural ties, communities and outward-looking attitude. We aim to celebrate those communities who have come to Scotland and settled, finding a home and contributing so much to the life of the city and our fellow Scots. The event will also be looking to the future and where we will find ourselves in Europe.
There will be several high-profile speakers, including Alyn Smith MEP, Tommy Sheppard MP, Joanna Cherry QC MP, and Minister for International Development and Europe, Dr Alasdair Allan MSP. There will also be live music and community acts, and entertainment from former Makar, Liz Lochhead. There will also be an opportunity to ‘Meet the Artist’ with a stall from renowned Indy artist Stewart Bremner.
As well as food, beer and sales stalls, a language tent, Councillor’s Surgery, children’s activities and crafts, there will also be bands throughout the day, playing an eclectic Continental mix, and including an Open Air Dashing White Sergeant and Strip the Willow!
All are welcome to this vibrant occasion!
You can register your attendance at:
link to eventbrite.co.uk
@Cactus says: 9 September, 2016 at 12:57 am:
… It may be appropriate to rename Great Britain, to New Britain?”
You couldn’t be more wrong, Cactus. You are doing the Establishment’s propaganda for them in that statement.
First of all, “Great Britain”, only comprises Scotland, Wales and England because the, “Great”, in, “Great Britain”, means only the largest British island. What is more Scotland regaining her independence does not alter, “Britain”, it only changes, “The United Kingdom of Great Britain”, and that is only Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England.
It doesn’t affect the three, non-UK, Crown Protectorates of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man. Nor does it include the Republic of Ireland.
That has been the Westminster Establishment’s propaganda since before there was a United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland. The English Kingdom claimed Wales since before they annexed it in 1248 and claimed Ireland even before they annexed it in 1542.
They were claiming Scotland long before Robert Bruce fought the Scottish wars of independence. In fact it was why Bruce fought the Wars of independence.
The Establishment has always worked very hard and used propaganda to attempt making people, the World over, believe Britain, The UK & England are all the same thing.
The truth is that the United Kingdom is not, and never has been, a country nor has it ever comprised all of Britain but they want everyone to make believe it is.
Links
link to news.scotland.gov.uk?
Nicola Sturgeon’s IndyRef2 Plans Could Be Derailed By A Legal Challenge
link to archive.is
link to robertsomynne.blogspot.co.uk
link to commonspace.scot
Fears-closure-of-scots-army-bases-could-cost-1600-jobs/
link to archive.is
link to centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk
link to energydesk.greenpeace.org
link to politicalscrapbook.net
All are welcome to this vibrant occasion!
BBC r4 news there, very excited about first Old Firm for Glasgow for a while, this weekend. Posh presenter honks excitably in London, over a football match in Glasgow, then Jim Naughty, who else, long empty but fruity revelling in Old Firm sectarian violence. Naughty kicks off his usual sleaze round Scotland garbage vox pop with, “Rangers is Scotland, the other lot are Irish.” Naughty ends on more vox pop, “Glasgow sheriff court will be jumping Monday morn.” Lots of laughs, oh Jim.
How to explain the phenomena that is the BBC in Scotland, to foreign people.
link to politics.co.uk
link to aljazeera.com
link to scepticpeg.wordpress.com
Comment posted on Guy Verhofstadt facebook page
link to twitter.com
@Hoss Mackintosh says: 9 September, 2016 at 12:59 am:
” … There is a Perfect storm ahead – Brexit is going to be a disaster for the UK no matter how the MSM spin it and the end result will lead to Scottish Independence.
Tick tock – indyref2 is coming. This time we will win.”
Aye! Hoss, You are not wrong. Brexit was the biggest mistake that Cameron and Westminster ever made. Cameron had no intention of ever exiting the EU. He was just over confident that he was a great negotiator and used the threat of a, “British”, exit to force the EU’s hand to make concessions to, “Britain”.
The truth is, of course, that in the first place he could not speak for, “Britain”, as he was only the Prime Minister of the UK of GB & NI. In the second place he erred in assuming that Scotland would just, “Get back in the Box”, after the Scottish Independence Referendum.
Cameron gambled and lost out big time. The thing is that his error is now compounded by the right wing support in England and, (the always attempting to resurface), Blood & Soil, “English Nationalism”, that has always simmered away in the background.
Here’s a point – there are hardly any nations in the World that the English have not invented a derogatory name for. Sweaties, Jocks, Taffies, Paddies, Micks, Wogs, Toerags, WOPs, Greasers, Huns, Frogs, Yanks, Ragheads – the list is endless.
Aye Robert, another way to simplify the definitions of these islands’ peoples, is..
There are several surviving ancient nations within the British Isles..Great Britain ISN’T one of them.
Just visited Guy Verhofstadt’s facebook page and emailed him directly.
Please do likewise folks.
Can I suggest somebody actually asks Mr Verhofstadt if he minds being contacted directly by half of Scotland BEFORE we all jump in?
I’m sure he will be gracious and polite, but 20,000 emails to swim through, or however many he gets might be counter productive.
…. Just sayin’…
I’m sure we can make our point without effectively collapsing the fella’s communications network.
Breeks. Guess you are right. Just eager to encourage a potential ally
Me too. ?
I was born in Scotland, my family emigrated to NZ when I was six so I don’t sound Scottish any more. I am asked, nicely always, where I’m from but when I reply with the above my Scottishness has NEVER been questioned.
Breeks
Whilst accepting your desire not to upset Mr Verhofstadt, he did, after all, ASK that people contact him with thoughts and ideas about the EU.
I’m sure he will have the ‘staff’ etc to cope with some friendly Scots!!
Ponsonby link to indyref2.scot
and Robertson link to indyref2.scot
Continue to shame the EBC for this appalling unprofessional is week after week
The don’t even cut it as propagandists – how humiliating must it be to work at Pacific Quay no matter how high the salary
The Corrupt Unionist Press have nominated the Tories for Politicians of the year. Davidson/Mudell. The corrupt 2nd rate rejects illegally allegedly embezzled public funds from local gov contracts. The firm is a shambles.The staff try to cover it up. Davidson and the Tory Press cover up criminal behaviour.
A scandal. Definitely not even better together. Even Tory multimillionaires politicians are suppose to comply with the contract and obey the Law. More Tory chaos.
Davidson covering up will be enjoying shooting weekend at the country estate. Cousins of the Queen. Tax evaders.
Talking of identity, what is the difference between ‘English Nationalism’ and ‘British Nationalism’? I detect very little.
Some English Nationalists do believe England should cut itself free of the Celtic leeches and stand alone. This is a tiny group. I would propose most English Nationalists are actually British Nationalists because for them, the island of Britain is England, or it should be.
So what about the British Nationalist Scot? I suspect many are Cringe driven and aspire to conform to an English identity anyway!
Muscleguy says:
9 September, 2016 at 9:08 am
I was born in Scotland, my family emigrated to NZ when I was six so I don’t sound Scottish any more. I am asked, nicely always, where I’m from but when I reply with the above my Scottishness has NEVER been questioned.
Are you glad you came back Muscleguy?
I am reminded that the Tories exist to entrench the rich and their spoils. Kept in place,second place by a fawning and wannabe shower of cringers. Pulling the foreskin and bowing sorry, pulling the forelock and bowing and scraping and aping Madame Bucket is a psychollogical condition oft seen in weak animals who turn over merely to get their belly rubbed.There is a PhD in that I tells ya.
However of late I am beginning to see again blatant signs of misuse of power by the Tories. Helping their wealthy friends,asking questions for their wealthy friends,covering the mis doings of their wealthy friends.Eliding corruption at the core of rheir party!
Oh for a couple of “watergate writers”
The unelected 2nd rate Tories bring their corruption, sleeze and contamination into the Scottish Parliament. Is nothing sacred? The facts certainly are not, as the Press has shown.
Thanks for ur comments folkx y’all.. to further stimulate debate.
Giggidy. Alright 🙂
They can rename what’s left of the U.K. Elizabeth.
After all. You have Elizabeth towers, bridges, ships and hospitals. So they must really like the name.
asklair 8 September @ 9:17pm
Unfortunately there isn’t a font for sarcasm.
Read my first post on Wings, its on the Junkies,tramps and thieves thread (2nd September @ 2:50pm), I’m no NF sympathiser.
Terry Entoure @ 11:58pm
The NF in the NE are a joke everyone knows who and what Dave MacDonald is (apart from Dame Anne Begg, ex BLiS MP apparently) he regularly stands for election at all levels, but due to apathy he got on a community recently (Garthdee I believe).
Agree with all comments regarding the positive appointment of Guy Verhofstadt as Brexit Chief Negotiator for the EU this can only be good for Scotland.
Robert Peffers says:
… the, “Great”, in, “Great Britain”, means only the largest British island.
You are of course 100% correct. However, many people think differently. Have a look at Yahoo Answers on the subject. It includes some gems.
” Best Answer: The Great was added after the inclusion of Scotland …”
Which begs the question, inclusion into what? So somehow the geographical island was not great before the Union. Even the best answer contains a hint that the great came with the creation of the UK.
Some answers are correct, though.
link to uk.answers.yahoo.com
Best of all for a laugh, or a cry, is to stick into Google ….
put the great back in britain
Rev Stu
Just reading on your twitter feed reaction to a phone in with Stephen Jardine. Have not heard the programme yet but i know Stephen well and he is one of the good guys and a guid Doonhamer. It is not my place to speak for him but I would urge caution before making assumptions about “taking sides” that I can assure you are unfounded.
Postl voting concerns.
The SG were extremely complacent re postal voting in the first Ref. I wrote to them a year before the event and asked them what safeguards they were putting in place to prevent fraud.
Their reply worried me to say the least. They told me that the normal council election rules would apply. It seems that nothing has changed so far for the next ref. I’m sure that there are fifth columnists highly placed in the SNP to damage us from within. Without a tightening of the postal vote and residency rules we will be wasting our time I fear.
Re;Effigy@7.05am
There are huge numbers of english people who voted no, I suspect many live here temporarily, if at all. In Edinburgh, you often see flats being bought up, and then never occupied, but the owner will still have a vote, probably a postal vote.
When canvassing this year, so many tenements seemed to be occupied by someone other than the person on the register, quick turnover of tenants, but it all seemed a bit strange.
Having been here in bonny Scotland for almost 28 years, I would see it as totally undemocratic not to be allowed to vote. Most of my neighbours, all well off, voted no, most are Scottish.
It used to be you could only access a student grant if you lived here for 3 years, the same should go for voting, and somehow proving residency, via the tax system, or social security system?
In order to vote in most countries you have to have residencey or citizenship I would imagine, we don’t have that option here. How long would I have to live in France before I could vote there?
A BBC obsession…
link to imgur.com
Hypothetical scenario if I as a Scot temporarily relocated to Catalonia and voted against their independence even if I changed my mind and intended to stay I find that morally reprehensible yet we allowed hundreds of thousands of foreign nationals RUK included to do just that in Scotland.
Can’t help from getting the feeling the more rabid the BritNats Yoons become, the more they realise it’s only a matter of time until Independence.
Gerry Hassan gives an insight into the mindset of the right wing Greater Englander as exemplified by the Spectator.
“… the left has regrouped on social liberalism and worked out how to police and control people via political correctness, multi-culturalism, and such ruses as public health (from ‘eat your greens’ to the war on obesity) and health and safety regulations. ‘The Spectator’ believes that the left is engaged in a continual war to undermine individual liberty and choice, and promote collective action and the state. Scotland in this analysis, is a basket case.”
link to gerryhassan.com
The brief footie honeymoon might not last long. HMRC are coming to collect the ‘Rangers’ due tax in 2019. Will it be available. Or it is curtains. Cheating not a recommended policy. The majority are sick of the stress and nonsense.
The majority of the eligible resident country members are allowed to vote. The vote affects their lives. With a residential qualification (ie permanent residents). It eliminate transitional people who lives will not be so affected. Democracy. Freedom of choice. Representaton with taxation. Most of foreign national RUK did not have a vote. Only electorate resident in Scotland.
Nana:
Good morning Nana,Im reading your Links.Thank you.
Peace,Love, and Butterfly loving poetic Comic Singers x
When will you Jock-types stop whinging and concentrate on what really matters!
Now, are you in favour of Grammar schools in Great Britain, well, England [same thing of course] or not?!
How dare you Jock-types concentrate on Scotland! You voted No remember!
Great news that Guy Verhofstadt MEP will be leading the Brexit negotiations for the European Parliament. He like many others beyond these shores will know that Westminster has been ripping Scotland off for decades, if not centuries. He like MANY others will no doubt be aware that the media in this country is an absolute disgrace, blatantly biased, and that Scotland has no ‘voice’ at all.
I’m reposting this because surprise, surprise it’s not on youtube (get it out there folks). Has the BBC and STV reported on this? If not (I haven’t heard anything) contact them and complain, complain, complain.
Guy Verhofstadt says that:‘’If they (Scotland) decide to be Independent they can be Independent. If they want to stay in the EU they can stay in the EU. It’s their decision.’’ ….
Interviewer stuttering (Glenn Campbell?) ‘’Stay in without having to join a queue to get in?’’ WOW!
‘’Yeah they are in for the moment so there’s no problem on that side.’’
link to amp.twimg.com
……………………………………….
As we all know Nigel Farage trailed up and down the country trying to influence the fishermens’ vote and yet hadn’t been representing them at all in the EU.
‘Geldof v Farage on the Thames – BBC News’
link to youtube.com
Guy Verhofstadt outing Farage.
….”You’re a member of the Fishery Commission for example and you are never there, NEVER …… I hope that this can be sent out to the BBC …. you are cheating your own citizens here …”
link to youtube.com
…………………………………………
As to the yougov polling figures isn’t it strange that Alex Salmond’s figures differ from theirs? He says that we’re now polling at 59% (27/06/2016). Has the figure dropped since then?
”59% of the population in Scotland are now in favour of Independence and that includes 75% of young people in Scotland” … 7 Minutes in.
‘Scotland already preparing for new independence vote – Alex Salmond (RT EXCLUSIVE)’
link to youtube.com
No postal vote. You can all ways nominate a proxy.
Another area. Is care homes where the manager votes for the residents.
People whos mental is impaired still have a vote. Usually a proxy vote.
You don’t want the system abused but like wise no one should be disenfranchised.
@Smallaxe
Here’s another link for you
Labour expelling Scottish members. That will be the autonomous Scottish labour Eh Kezia?
link to archive.is
Petra says:
“Great news that Guy Verhofstadt MEP will be leading the Brexit negotiations for the European Parliament”
Indeed so. The Record covers this. Some good comments from Verhofstadt and Alyn Smith. But also some of the already debunked tripe about Spain.
link to archive.is
My ideal scenario is that …. WM’s future relationship with the EU will depend on them behaving themselves during IndyRef2. I hope the EU will expect events to take their democratic course without undermining by WM. No lies, fearmongering, or false promises next time. The EU will be watching. Hope I’m not overly optimistic!
Pinch me I’m dreaming kinda stuff.
Farage has doomed the UK economy to decades of painful readjustment, dependency upon foreign markets where the concept of “British” has a chequered reputation, and lit the slow burning fuse on xenophobia and racism which will set back the rUK several more decades and embarrass all right thinking people for years. Bad enough to exit Europe with a good reason, but the only reason they can quote is anti immigrant intolerance of foreigners; the same foreigners they now want to trade with.
With complex negotiations to exit some trade agreements, and even more protracted negotiations to enter new trade agreements while your economy idles on standby, is not a happy situation to be in, and has the potential to be an unmitigated disaster.
The US will probably deal, but only if Westminster bends over for TTIP terms and conditions.
The Asians, Australians and Kiwis haven’t forgotten being unceremoniously dumped by the UK when it joined the EEC.
You have too large a population to integrate with EFTA, and membership would require the same freedom of movement which you won’t accept from Europe.
The Japanese are set to lose their access to European markets from their investments in the UK.
The Chinese are a huge market, and will undoubtedly agree to a Trade deal, but at what cost and job security for rUK wages? Furthermore, I rather suspect the Chinese will drive a hard bargain on UK military technology expertise, which has the potential to sour US relations and destabilise the Far East.
These I stress are potential Trade Agreements, because the rUK cannot sign or negotiate any trade deals until it triggers Article 50.
Altogether, it’s quite a mess.
And yet still, in the face of this protracted period of Herculean difficulty, the Brexiteers make their headline of the day another insulting personal attack on the European person they are going to have to negotiate with.
I do wish the rUK’s parents would hurry up and come home from their holiday and sort out the complete mess which the children have created in their absence.
Oh yes, and let’s not overlook that troublesome little side issue of Scotland’s independence to address when you get a moment…
We need to get out of this Union before we start getting hit with the bill for WM repairs. As far as I’m concerned it can fall down and they can meet in a porta cabin. Just a pity that guy didn’t do a better job of it.
Time for someone out there to clarify true GERS figures for Scotland, as it’s probably the number one reason for negatively influencing support.
Time too that we all started pointing out that the ‘broad shoulders’ of the UK, that are supposedly supporting the Scottish ‘financial liabilities’, are suffering from an untreatable form of osteoporosis.
The UK is totally broke. Should be bankrupted in fact.
What ‘THEY’ are not telling us: The UK has twice as much debt as Greece…. Britain’s debts tower above almost every other Nations …. UK debts swell to 900% of our economy …. clear to see that we are totally broke” ….
And that was three years ago!
‘The debt time bomb that is Britain’ (2013)
link to youtube.com
Nana:
I thank you my love
Kezia Dugdale’s recent claims that her party is “autonomous”.
I think she meant”Superfluous/Anonymous”
Peace and Love to You and those who You Love
Assuming that we win IndyREF2 and remain in The EU can anybody tell me what, apart from arms, will all these extraEU countries the Brexiteers are banging on about be clamouring to buy from RumpUK?
Taking into account that the pharmaceutical industry will probably relocate, I’d say ”NOUGHT’ Gus.
@Robert Peffers
It actually irks me that we cant call them Sassenachs anymore really since the Saxons uhmm got gubbed in 1066 or as one Alex Salmond once said that was when they lost control of immigration, England that is.
Is there a derogatory term for the Anglo Norman invaders that took over the place post 1066 and in essence the descendants of those immigrants still rule the place. I suppose Dirty Tory Bastards will have to suffice for now. The Anglo Normans that is and not the Saxons.
@ Gus1940
Timeshares in Kent?
Won’t be financial services, because all the Finance houses will have moved to where they don’t need a banking passport to operate.
High Speed Rail Network? Surplus to requirements since the rUK will be back using steam like the good ol’ days of British empire, mined by kids with pit ponies of course blessed with a job for life – all 30 years of it, and a generous pension they will never live to see.
I dare say they can make ends meet with defence spending. I heard a rumour that just a couple of nuclear subs that are hardly ever there can provide employment for tens of thousands. Even though the subs themselves cost tens of billions to build. Jackie Baillie has all the details…
Then there are parts for the Eurofighter… Rebranded as the “Fighter” of course, and already known to you and me as the Typhoon, but rebranded a the “Bit of a Breeze”. Assuming BAE doesn’t move production to the continent of course, which it won’t because Britannia would never use foreign yards,or companies for defence contracts. Jackie Baillie has all those details too…
I have a quiet suspicion that GB’s largest export might be in the food and drink sector; generous slices of humble pie chopped up will telling irony into pieces, just like the Union Jack shortbread at Marks and Sparks.
I have said it before the only people allowed to vote on the future of Scotland should be those who were born and live in Scotland no Incomer should have a vote as it is not their country only the true native people of Scotland should be able to decide the future of their country what could be fairer than that in the last ref., figures stated that 70to80per cent of Incomers voted no to me that’s not on it is my country I will decide its future without outsiders having their say the Incomers are only guests here and should respect the rights of the native Scots to decide their destiny apart from any thing else it is only good manners
Blair
I disagree with you that would exclude those for example born in England or elsewhere, but who grew up and educated in Scotland.
In my eyes that sends the wrong message about Scotland being a welcoming and inclusive country.
It should be those who are resident in Scotland as the last referendum was. To do otherwise, plays into yoons hands by allowing Scotland to be accused of ethnic nationalism.
Vambomarbeley says:
9 September, 2016 at 11:35 am
No postal vote. You can all ways nominate a proxy.
Another area. Is care homes where the manager votes for the residents.
People whos mental is impaired still have a vote. Usually a proxy vote.
I can assure you that anyone with a mental health issue, like dementia is not allowed to vote. The voter registration office should be notified of this when a person is diagnosed with dementia by their carer or guardian.
I have had to do this with my mother.
If you live here in Scotland, whether you are born here or not, you are a Scot. Or are you?
See, some folk, born here or moved here, don’t consider themselves Scots. They consider themselves British, first and foremost. There are many reasons why, to many to go into and not so simple as to be categorised in broad brush strokes.
WE are a threat to their Britishness. WE are the insurgents, the enemy within.
With that in mind I’d say that what makes one a Scot is if you wish to see Scotland flourish, and when given the choice of two options, where one benefits the UK to the detriment of Scotland and one is of benefit to Scotland, you choose Scotland.
My letter in The National a few days ago which touched on Scottishness:
I’ve often heard Unionists complain that the saltire is not the property of the SNP or the Yes movement. If that’s the case, why do so many Unionists seem so reluctant to be seen with the flag of their own nation? A case in point is Ruth Davidson. Have a quick search on Google for images of Ruth Davidson. You can add on the terms Scotland or saltire if you wish, the result will be the same: one solitary photo out of hundreds where Ruth and the flag of our nation appear together. It’s a similar story with Labour’s soon to be ex-branch leader Kezia Dugdale. One solitary photo, and she’s probably gritting her teeth while it’s being taken. There are no photos of Willie Rennie with our national flag, but there is one of him being bopped on the nose by a spaniel.
It seems clear to me that for all their words to the contrary the three Unionist parties are not representing Scotland in the union, quite the reverse. They represent the union in Scotland. They are ambassadors for Britain, they sell Britishness to us. They want us to be regionalised and marginalised. They are in effect “so-called Scots”, who will say they are Scottish while doing everything to the contrary. Their every utterance is to play down Scotland’s potential, to spread the message that we, among all the other nations on the planet are unfit to look after ourselves and that we need London to do that for us. They exemplify the “proud Scot but” mentality, where no matter what this country achieves it’s never quite good enough.
I initially asked why so many unionists seem reluctant to be seen with the flag of their own nation. The fact is they aren’t. Their nation is Britain, and they will wrap themselves in the red, white and blue all day long. Stand them in front of a flagpole and hand them a saltire and a union flag and ask them to choose one. They’ll hoist the union flag every time. So they shouldn’t be allowed to peddle the lie that they are representing Scotland’s best interests, when in reality they will always put Britain first.
Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t about a piece of fabric. The saltire will not feed us, it will not defend us, and it will not put a roof over our heads. But the unwillingness to be associated with the flag of Scotland must cast serious doubt over the intentions of the parties loyal to crown and union. Already companies sympathetic to the union are rebranding themselves to eradicate the saltire from their brands. In the last few days we have seen “British Haggis” hit the shelves, no doubt appealing to the “so-called Scots” who feel guilty at eating unpatriotic Scottish haggis. They can now wash this down with union flag wrapped British Whisky and top it off with a wee slice of British shortbread. An array of ethically cleansed foodstuff awaits the British patriot. All they need is for the Daily Record to return to its original name of the North British Daily Mail and they will be in heaven.
Another referendum is coming and we can’t allow them to peddle the “best of both worlds lie” unchallenged. Lose this referendum and we will have given up our nationhood once and for all. What is on offer is the choice between Scotland and Britain, and the question to the waverers must be: Are you a Scot or are you not?
link to anindependentscotsman.wordpress.com
From my blog, December 2014;
As a polling agent on the day and as a counting agent I was lucky enough to see first hand the count take place in North Lanarkshire. This has given me some insight into the process, certainly enough to discount some of the more ‘tinfoil hat’ variety of claims which were prominent on social media immediately after the referendum. But that is not to say there are no problems. I have submitted letters to Alex Neil MSP asking that the Scottish Government hold an inquiry into voting practices, and I have submitted freedom of information requests to the Electoral Commission at both local and national level. As yet the Scottish Government has no plans to hold any inquiry, but I am pleased to see that the Electoral Commission is looking at introducing the requirement for secondary identification for voters to prevent personification. This is for me too little, too late though. Transportation of uncounted ballot papers, allowing polling agents to also be counting agents, and the many cases of people turning up to vote in person who were told they had already voted by post, all of these point to a system riddled with scope for error and manipulation. Similarly the Commission’s reply to me regarding postal voting, stating that ease of voting was a higher priority than the integrity of the system, is one the Scottish Government should be challenging.
I should have the letters from the electoral commission somewhere. If I find them I’ll get them uploaded.
link to anindependentscotsman.wordpress.com
Well said… Blair Paterson… let me remind all that the definition of being Scottish and in particular a Scottish Citizen was presented only as a requirement to be able vote on Constitutional matters e.g. Independence. I have lived on and off in Canada as for most of my adult life by I still identify myself as Scottish. I do hope to witness Scottish independence before my time is come and to accordingly to hold a Scottish passport if not for me but for my three sons. Meanwhile as an SNP member I come over actively participate in important election campaigns.
I would suggest however that a good idea to consider constitutionally is that, come independence, qualified Scottish expats would be allowed to vote in elections for a select number of SMPs described as overseas representatives. Many Scots overseas have a degree of influence that might be useful as trade and political allies. Additionally this can be a useful generator of tourism and general Scottish promotion.This practice is successful in both Switzerland and Italy and probably other countries.
Wull, wurr an awfae fuckin hingoot, accoarrdin tae yoan Radio Scoattlin. Wae dry-boak fur, wurr Scoattish Government.
FuK thoan union.
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