The abusers and the abused
There’s been something of a resurgence recently in pundits bemoaning online abuse and saying “Yes, there are bad apples on both sides but the overwhelming majority of offenders are Yes supporters”.
The authors of such articles oddly choose to ignore the only statistical data so far in existence, which shows the opposite:
It also seems not to occur to them that their own experience of abuse may be a result of their particular – real or perceived – partisan position. (Ours, for example, is that 98% comes from No voters, but then that WOULD be our experience because on the whole you tend to get abused by people who disagree with you, not your own side.)
So we expect they’ll ignore this inconvenient statistical data from our latest Panelbase poll too, but we’ll put it out there anyway, alongside the Express poll, for reference. It’s pretty much all you can do.
There’s no reason that Yes voters would be more likely to report/invent abuse than No voters. A poll commissioned by a right-wing Unionist newspaper found the same thing as one commissioned by a left-wing pro-independence website. (In fact, more so.) Not a single solitary scrap of proper comparable scientific evidence exists anywhere that we know of to back the proposition that Yes supporters are more abusive.
We’ll take any bets that the lie will continue, though.
Maybe Yes supporters are just more sensitive? 🙂
I dish out vituperative one-liners only when attacked, or in defence of another who is attacked.
(Had satisfying spat with David Aaronivitch an hour ago, a man who thinks liking Cuba makes you a confirmed commie.)
It would not cross my mind to pursue a unionist who had stated nothing more than “Where’s my empire, Dude?”
Hence, am not surprised greatest load of abuse emanates from the No camp. They are, after all, trying to knock holes in the walls of the citadel and that means firing off as many slingshots as they can muster.
ThePNR,
Aye right, that’ll be it!
I’ll not be taking that bet. No doubt the lie that all this debate is fractious and aggressive will continue too – I’m heartened to see the vast majority feel they’ve suffered no abuse at all.
Helping out at yes stalls I can confirm every day we received some kind of abuse which culminated in someone I know being assaulted outside tynecastle stadium. This incident was reported to the police but as far as I’m aware no charges were brought even though the area is crawling with CCTV.
Aaronvitch is an absolute tosser. How dare he tell people from Scotland how they must feel. Him, Eddie Izzard, Jon Snow’s nephew – ”GET OFF MY LAWN”.
I sound like a ‘White settlers oot’ type, which I am not, but for these leafy-liberal Brit nats who’s experience of Scotland has been a night out in Glasgow, or a trip to the Festival in Edinburgh – telling US how we should feel about our nation, drives me mad.
These Brit nats do my absolute head in. Last week we had Blair saying the politics of the SNP are that of the caveman, yet at the same time, he went on to see ‘us’ Brits are the greatest people in the world.
But Stu, you’re forgetting that the Yes voters are just making it up to make the poor unionists look bad, while the poor, innocent No voters are under-reporting because of the oppression of the SNP one-party state. Or something.
(Incidentally, I wonder how many of those No voters who say they’ve received abuse are Tories who have received abuse from fellow No-voting Labour supporters? The question doesn’t specify that it has to be related to their views on independence, after all…)
Finally getting close to the 1% Hang Em High 😉
This doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. I have never abused anyone for their position on the constitutional question. I have, however, had heated debates which have often ended with the unionist arguments in tatters. That usually ends with them screaming abuse at me because they can’t defend their position.
Actually, that’s an interesting thought. The beaten party in an argument is usually the one who resorts to abusing the victor. Perhaps the reason for all these Noers are so angry is because they keep losing the argument.
Good poll question Rev Stu.
Also ties in with actual reports of several assaults of Yes supporters before the referendum as compared to no documented assaults of No supporters.
Assuming, of course, you discount Jim Murphy’s best efforts to exploit the issue – one “egg” and the “riot” in Buchannan Street.
90% of “Did Not Vote” folk did not get abused at all.
10% did though. Is that likely, or did the abuse put them into a “not voting” stance?
This collective body knows perfectly well that all forms of UK Media are bought and paid for by our elite masters.
They have no intension of portraying the facts or the cold hard reality of who the masses are being conned.
Their reason for being is to pick up as many pieces of silver as they can while promulgating the merits of making the rich richer for your own good.
I suppose it is necessary to record their deceit and lies
should any new readers join the site, but we desperately need a new method of taking the truth to those who are indoctrinated by the BBC and Newspaper magnets and cannot access the internet.
I was about to answer no to the abuse questions, til I remembered that an old guy called me a Nazi once.
It was on the last day of canvassing for the Yes campaign, and after chapping thousands of doors I could only report that folk were generally delighted to engage, regardless of their opinions, then it happened! The door opened, the twisted wee face peeked out, and the rant started before I’d even said hello!
This doesn’t really count though as I was really quite pleased that I’d seen such a specimen at all, having began to seriously doubt their very existence 😉
(Also, I can’t deny the fun I had in verbally wiping the floor with him, ah happy days!)
I consider the drivellings of certain journalists to be abuse and incitement – well beyond the bounds of truth , honesty and decorum.
I hate to use this expression. JK et.al – Grow a pair and shut the ferk up. If you want to be a high profile no campaigner then expect a few nutters now and again. We don’t condone abuse but statistically it’s part of life.
The rest of us don’t cry foul we just get on with it. I remember when independence was like a dirty word if you mentioned it. I used to get shouted down 5 to 1 by angry unionists. I have put up with it all my life without having to cry for my mammy.
I think they need the lie because they know perfectly that they are some absolute wing nuts on the No side who inhabit the Loyalist/UKIP niche and who have no issue with straying into threats of violence.
There are loads of snarky abusive No types out there on line but they don’t bother me personally. I have no inhibition about my views and I would never moderate them because of a troll and I really don’t care what they think of me.
They won’t ignore it: they’ll just point out that the poll shows (marginally) more No voters than Yes voters say they were verbally abused, assaulted, or had their property damaged. Doesn’t matter that it completely undermines the Cybernat myth, you know that’s how they’ll spin it – and they’ll bring Wings into it. “Separatist’s OWN SURVEY proves Yes voters more violent and abusive.”
Is it still ok to play ‘Michael White’s moustache’ 🙂
Yes Hoss, we should look at the stretching of the truth, knowingly using words with loaded meanings and contrast with the severity of online abuse.
CHAOS IN GLASGOW?
Was it really?
WAR IS CHAOS… REFUGEES LIVE IN CHAOS…JOSTLING POLITICIANS IS NOT CHAOS…
It’s funny.
[…] The abusers and the abused […]
From the article above:
“Yes, there are bad apples on both sides but the overwhelming majority of offenders are Yes supporters”.
YEAH, RIGHT!
This looks like a clear-cut-case of 2/1 to me:
(The Yes supporter is the one on the deck)
link to newsnet.scot
And who can forget these 2 brave heroines and what happened to
them when they were surrounded by a crowd of big butch UKOKers:
And then there’s this wee braveheart facing up to UKOK bullies,
ladies & gentlemen i give you our future Scottish leader:
BTW, what did become of all those Unionist arrests in Glasgow?
Did our normally reliable media just forget to inform us?
A slight oversight perhaps?
😉
Perhaps you should send this to Private Eye who seem keen to publish unsubstantiated opinion pieces on their letters pages regarding the horrors of Nationalism…
Probably every Yes vote knows the reality out there, in the media, online, the UKOK street thugs etc.
But let’s face it, the whole of Scotland and the Scots have come under relentless, crafted (pejorative) slander and abuse from our imperial masters for a long long time. So from their “you’re all Scotch scourgers” for decades, via Rab C Nesbit, to their latest giant Alex Salmond the pickpocket thief in black so vote Tory posters, in all marginal’s across England before May 7. It’s all just part of UKOK life in this cringers paradise of a union,
On the property damaged thing I wonder how much of it was “property” and how much it was those big No Thanks things that appeared in large numbers in fields. A fair few of those got plastered with Yes stickers 🙂
Our Yes shop got egged more than once. That sort of thing happens in elections. A couple of drunk nawbags most likely. It was hardly the end of civilisation.
Is it still ok to play ‘Michael White’s moustache’?
Please! It’s called ‘Mr Topiary ‘Tache’. (Similar to ‘Mr Potato Head’.)
🙂
Demonising your opponent, same old trick. What next. The project fear scare tactics are alive and kicking.
We all know that by and large YES campaigners were happy, smiling, positive and peaceful. We all know that the no lot were angry, negative and even violent, especially verbally. I know a YES campaigner who was spat at, I was surrounded by 5 no voters and shouted down and laughed at, at an event.
The bullying will continue and will get much worse in the lead up to the Scottish Election. We have to be on our guard and counter it all, even false flag stuff. They will be desperate for the SNP to lose votes as well. Anything goes with project fear.
Considering that it was a Better Together tactic to scare people away from contact with Yes groups by exaggerating the slightest incident into a full blown debacle. It is logical that their supporters do likewise.
There was not one Saturday street stall during the campaign where our Yes group were not subject to some form of abuse or other. Okay it was mostly low level stuff like the “big tough guys” of the No campaign sticking two fingers out of the window and shouting “wankers” as they sped past in their cars.
–TOTALLY O/T–
Nic Sturgeon is pulling a blinder with this international relations thing.
Set the Unionists up for a long, depressing battle of negativity…
…then completely patch them and head off round the world instead, spreading good vibes and pre-emptively sowing the seed should we ever become independent.
A silent, powerful reminder that we don’t need a nanny to do things on our behalf.
Even if one hated her guts and her party, I think one would have to admit we have a talented politician here.
I’ve had abuse like most but I could handle that. Being the child of an SNP campaigner who has been active for over 40 years I am used to it even as far back as in the school playgrounds.
What I struggled with was people looking down their noses at me as some kind of crack pot. For example speaking of the McCrone report and being called a conspiracy theorist who shouldn’t believe everything I read on the internet by so called friends.
One of the worst examples though was post Referendum. While on holiday with a friend who was a No Voter we were asked about our thoughts on the result by English man. I stated that my friend and I differed in opinion. I was an activist for Yes. My friend voted No but she wasn’t as heavily involved in the campaign. I wasn’t having a dig at her just answering the mans questions but she jumped in and stated that she ‘knew her facts’. I knew she just followed what her sister had told her and did absolutely no research what-so-ever but I let it go. Anyway the real issue happened later that day when my friend who ‘knew her facts’ asked me who UKIP where because she had never heard of them before. Now that was abuse to my sensibilities. You have no idea how hard it was to hold back when answering that question.
Ask a pest control company if those electronic devices supposed to scare mice work and they’ll tell you they don’t. They aren’t lying, it is just because nobody calls them out when the mice are scared off. In a pest controllers world their experience is that they don’t work. People who voted No will only get abuse from Yes voters and vice versa. So as No’ers are the majority, unfortunately, it stands to reason there will be more abuse on Yessers but more reports of abuse from the No’ers.
And I conclude that we should drop our pants and not bombs.
The big difference, IMO, is that abuse on the Yes side originates with the foot soldiers and is publicly discouraged by the high heid yins. On the No side abuse is frequently noticable from the heid bummers themselves. Whether it’s JoLa calling us virus or Ian (not so) Smart calling us Nazis, or Ally Darling agreeing we’re blood & soil nationalists.
There are a few lone nutters on the Yes side, but the No side has them from top to bottom, and nothing effective is ever done to discourage them.
It would be interesting to poll the abusers, although whether any responses would be honest enough is debatable!
(Whole books have no doubt been written on the subject – the endemic nature of bullying in our culture, the abused becoming the abuser, the psychology of the magic C word – Control.)
Might depend on how the questions are phrased, but questions of feeling are subjective and perhaps irrelevant to bullies anyway.
Like everything nature or nurture related, the seeds are probably sown in childhood. Some grow up balanced, some unhinged. There’s a fine line probably and a lot of people straddle it.
The prevalence and ever increasing volume of online abuse, the reactionary statements, the soundbite comms, the frivolity, the pointlessness of non-debates (10 PRINT Naw you’re talkin rubbish; 20 GOTO 10;) is a goldmine for psych students, wherein anyone with very basic typing skills seems to be a self-proclaimed expert.
The omnipresence (cheek<–tongue) of social media in our daily lives and its perpetual broadcasting through the conduit of the MSM every half-hour of the day is like static on the radio to me, but I still tune in subconsciously with the masses.
As reported cases and incidents filter through we are all becoming more aware of the dangers. We can all *feel* its insidious nature, the danger lurking and the potential long lasting damage to young developing minds especially (I note with interest in today's headline news Let children erase online past…), but what to really do about it?
We are beyond innocence but perhaps we could do with a few 21st Century Public Information films, broadcasting the perils and dangers of the age to the nation (not just the younger citizens), along with the need for collective and individual responsibility, mutual respect, collaboration, social unity – across borders. "There is nothing to fear from civic nationalism, it might even help neighbouring countries towards redeveloping a freethinking social democracy…"
Having become a recent Father (Ah'm a Dad!) to a beautiful wee girl, my thoughts now are probably preoccupied with doing the right thing (reading Barry Schwartz's book on the topic) and learning how to encourage and support the development of my daughter while navigating the minefield of an interconnected world that needs to become more substantially and emotionally connected.
Wish me luck campers.
Sorry I've rambled a bit off-piste there, lunchtime is now over. Booo.
With project fear anything goes…
That was the Pandoras’ box we opened when Ref 1 was agreed to.
The pro-war hawks, the Neo-Cons, the media owners, the (former) big 3 UK parmies, the US administration, NATO,
The BBC and Big OIL..
All protected by professional liars and corporate lawyers..
Bring’em on…our honest argument can only be twisted and deflected so far, and for so long..so long as a hundred..
Is it still ok to play ‘Michael White’s moustache’?
Now stop that.
In his brilliant autobiography, “I’m not a Tory but” Mike White says he only grew a soup strainer because everyone in rancid The Guardian’s newsroom has a really big mouth and Mike only has a small one.
Anyway, I’m away to do a few lines off a prossie’s backside. Its ok officer, Professor Smirky of the Smith Commission here says how very British of me.
link to twitter.com
For the record, Professor Smirky is only saying that the rather thrilled New Statesman thing on Lord Sewell is “Twitter perfection” and not just another bunch of hard core UKOK establishment degenerates.
@Thepnr
I’m not overly sensitive, I’m not… bugger, I’ve dropped a stitch and burnt my scones.
Since many of the No activists made a point of joining Yes conversations on twitter to tell us how wrong we all were, I’m not surprised some of them reported abuse (Yes, Duncan, I’m talking to you). However, I just block the immediate nutters.
It hurt being called a blackshirt by my no-voting, United Ireland-supporting, brother, though.
No never have done
But in BBC Speak
When questioned on the subject Dr Jim denied all the accusations made against him ( but but eh )
and we’ve run out of time on that story about Nationalist intimidation of ordinary law abiding citizens and normal working housewives to such a degree they are being forced to sell their homes and being driven to near suicide by their evil tactics in order to make them vote the wrong way
Deep Sigh, Sad look at camera and fade out to music while shuffling papers never actually referred to coz the script’s all on autocue
Repeat at 10.30pm with Sarah Smith who’ll do it all again
I will say this in Sewell’s defence, after Brittan, Smith, Morrison and the rumours regarding Janner, Heath and a pile of others, Sewell’s peccadillos were refreshingly old school.
The orange bra was a master touch. It could have been In the Thick of It or The New Statesman.
It’s an anecdote (so completely against the point of the article) but I saw a No voter ranting and raving outside our polling station, culminating with him leaning over a small boy wearing a Yes badge, poking him repeatedly in the chest whilst screaming in his face that he was a ("Tractor" - Ed) (among other things). It got so bad that I called the police. The policeman told me that they’d been on call-outs all day and that they were ALL to do with No voters causing bother.
I did wonder after hearing that if the press would ask the police for an actual breakdown of Yessers vs Noers who’d caused trouble. (I knew intimidating Yes voters outside a polling station, causing a breach of the peace and (techinically) assaulting a child wouldn’t get reported!) But, nope. I still wonder if anyone’s actually asked the police for a breakdown. It seems a sensible thing to do instead of throwing JK Rowling into our faces every other day.
Anyway, my guess is if the media did pick up on this survey, they’d just concentrate on couple of percentage points difference of No voters who say they had property damaged or were verbally abused. They’ll always find a way to spin things to suit their narrative.
The complete lie that the majority of those who are supporters of Scottish independence are abusers of those who are not, especially by those commenting online, is but one segment in the circle of black propaganda perpetrated upon the Scottish people, and all of those in the UK, by the British state and its actors.
In any war, ‘hot’ or ‘cold’, one of the first casualties is the truth. Propaganda as a tool of war is an incredibly powerful thing and who controls the output controls the propaganda and, subsequently, the ‘truth’.
And those controlling the output? The British Establishment and state: Westminster, the aristocracy, Deep State, GCHQ, MI5 and other covert operatives, which, in turn, control the greatest tool in their arsenal, the mainstream media.
The UK rabidly unionist media is owned by media conglomerates and super-rich individuals. They have a great interest in maintaining the status quo and their ‘friendship’ is a thing to be courted by any Westminster government, hence they have huge influence – and power.
And the spanner in the works? Scottish independence. And who is threatening to make it a reality? The SNP. And who voted 56 SNP MPs to Westminster? The Scottish electorate. And where do ever increasing numbers of the Scottish electorate receive their news and information? Online.
And yet. A high percentage of Scotland’s population still rely on the ‘old media’ to get their news and information. Those controllers of the mainstream media know that, so it is there that they maintain their campaign of lies, misinformation and fearmongering against Scotland, its people and their interests.
The old media is much easier to suppress and manipulate. ‘The power of the press’ has never been truer in any so-called democracy than it is in the UK – a UK where the mainstream media is anti-Scottish and virulently anti-Scottish independence. Without any regulation and freedom to abuse, lie and misinform, the UK’s unionist media is *the* biggest barrier to Scottish independence.
Until a sizable majority of Scots voters realise they are being duped by the UK’s mainstream media independence, Yes or No, will remain too close to call.
I manned our street stall many times and there were a few oddballs, and a couple of aggressive types who seemed to go swivel eyed at the sight of a Yes flag. However, most people were pleasant and polite. Some were adamantly No but they were happy to stop and chat.
Those with a slim grasp on reality also stopped and I had one or two minding conversations but I think these people do that to whoever is manning a stall in the street for whatever purpose.
I personally think that Darling lost the lot when he started talking up death and destruction and calling the Yes supporters Blood and Soil Nazis. I’m kind of glad he has disappeared from the scene. He was the problem.
The internet and Twitter is a different world. One only has to look at Katie Hopkins to see that trolling is mainstream. Ian Smart is our local representative of the genre of contributor.
My most recent brush with online abuse was delightfully ironic. I saw an article on a local Lib Dem Facebook page (my cousin is an activist/admin) and politely pointed out that the article was unbalanced, citing examples of abuse against Yessers to make my point.
One zoomer started on me straight away – “I was trying to derail the thread”, “typical SNP response”, “that’s just 2 examples”, “people like you are destroying Scotland” and my favourite:
“You, she (Sturgeon) and Salmond have awoken something very dark in Scottish society you can’t control. Damn you!”
When I pointed out the irony of him responding to a polite response on an article about online abuse with unprovoked abuse then he went off on one. It was hilarious.
Kirsty-still trying to work out how someone who wants their country to be an independent nation can be a ("Tractor" - Ed)?? Jeez..must be millions of those in the 300 nations on earth then! The mind boggles.
HandandShrimp says:
29 July, 2015 at 2:23 pm
I will say this in Sewell’s defence, after Brittan, Smith, Morrison and the rumours regarding Janner, Heath and a pile of others, Sewell’s peccadillos were refreshingly old school.
Well just on the Sewell thing alone, how many perfectly decent people have had their collars felt and a criminal conviction for mere possession that then ruined their professional lives, how many dealers are sitting in jails with really long sentences, how many are thousands are dead at the hands of the South American cartels, how many women’s lives are destroyed by prostitution but sitting above all that, the actual UKOK law makers are completely flouting their own wretched law making.
And all this Lordly corruption is then soft soft soaped by the BBC and made light of by dudes like Smith Commission toryboy Professor Smirky up there.
Or imagine the teamGB fury at say Alex Salmond pulling a UKOK Lords thing.
Or, yesterday on the ghastly BBC Breakfast grot they had on a ageing Lady Lord who explained totally unchallenged, that making Lords elected would actually hamper the good work they do do. All of it unchallenged by the gimps on the most expensive BBC union jack sofa ever.
Joemcg says:
29 July, 2015 at 3:01 pm
Kirsty-still trying to work out how someone who wants their country to be an independent nation can be a (“Tractor” – Ed)?? Jeez..must be millions of those in the 300 nations on earth then! The mind boggles.
I can’t get my head round that either so by their definition William Wallace was a ("Tractor" - Ed)”
or is there something I’m missing ?
Graeme
Macart 2:16 – bit sexist, what?
Eckle Fechan 1:56 – congrats on becoming a Dad, it changes your life and your philosophy very quickly, I think you have found that out already.
The problem is that the UK media sees the world through unionist tinted glasses and use unionist abuses filters which prevents them from seeing the true reality, which is the fact that 90% of abuse comes from the unionist side.
The online abuse I can handle. When it did get out of hand on FB I reported the matter to Police Scotland. The Police dealt with that satisfactorily even though it took FB several months to remove the individual.
What I didn’t like was having my car vandalised due to having Yes stickers on it. I have been a car owner fro 45 plus years and that was the first time I have ever had it vandalised even though I never ever had any car I owned in a garage overnight, never having owned a garage.
The Police in this instance caught the little canutes responsible.
This all pales into insignificance when one of my neighbours sons was bullied at school for having Yes views and the school took no action at all against the perpetrators of that mental and “physical” abuse.
It is the Brit Nat way to be nasty bullies though so perhaps none of it should have come as any surprise.
Carried over from the last article but perhaps still relevant here.
I’ve always wanted to have a defined font (labelled as Ironic)for use when one wants to be ironic on any kind of public or semi-public place. That would include Twitter and the like.
I’ve seen some possible candidates. One that has hairy bits on it, one that has (mice-like)tails hanging below, one that has drips coming off it, one where the staggering letters look as though they have had one too many drams.
The idea would not be to have the whole text written in it, but just the headline and author name.
So who (if anyone is in charge of these things and can get it into the public sphere) is up for it?
OT. TODAY New LibDem Leader Tim Farron announcces his ‘Front Bench’.
TEN are from the House of Lords with oor very own Willie Rennie MSP getting the ‘Scottish Spokesperson’ post.
Braw. 🙂
Gilbert and Sullivan must have an operetta lined up for this.
link to newsshaft.com
Another wee story, I was getting on the number 5 in morningside wearing my official yes t-shirt last august and spotted an old guy sitting down with a no thanks badge he looked at me and said “wanker” under his breath! Nice.
Jack Murphy wrote:
“TODAY New LibDem Leader announces his ‘Front Bench’.”
Irrelevant Tory bed warmers! (((((NEXT)))))
😉
Graeme, Joemcg,
I forgot that Stu has a filter here that will change the “T-word” into tractor so it now looks like I’ve derailed the site into talking about farming or something! 🙂
I agree with both of you, it’s dumb; but I guess some people believe the “Britain” is their country and we’re trying to hurt that. Also, quite interesting how that sort of use of the “T-word” isn’t ever mentioned in the press.
Anyway, the lovely thing about that horrible incident, and the thing that made me so determined not to get down about the No vote was that the wee boy just looked at the guy and laughed. I thought it was excessively brave of him but I was also really proud of him for doing it!
I did do abuse once while out canvassing during the Referendum campaign.
I was frequently abused verbally at doors and street stalls etc, the worst was actually from a Kirk minister whose door I had chapped. Now I have to say that really shook me. And I will state that I always tried to be as polite as possible when visiting other folks’ property.
The one instance I went off on one was an evening when I was exhausted, and the guy at the door had the usual rant at me about whatever. I ended up calling him “sir” and walking away. People will know that when I call someone “sir” I’m being forcefully polite, trying to control myself 🙂
My canvassing partner took over and I went on to do a few more doors – without any more unpleasantness.
As others have stated – street stalls in particular were where the physical abuse happened. Once when a sitting MP was in their group. Once when Two-Jags Prescott and other MPs thought they still had the God-given right to lord it over us in our own streets. A young girl was assaulted in front of police at that one.
It has to be said that most of the violence and near-violence that I remember came from people I would describe as “being of strict disciple types”. Decode that one as you think fit.
Also I forgot the damage to my car.
One instance – in a good area of Glasgow, middle of the day – half a dozen of us all got scratching & denting to our cars. Mine was around £1000 damage. All because we had Yes stickers.
At least 2 other occasions when I had Naw stickers put on my car. Still haven’t had time to properly scrape one of them off 🙂
Absolutely disgusting!
There are families going hungry and cold while these parasites blow money on extravagances. Note the wording in the first para.
link to archive.is
(extremely angry face thing)
@Dawn in NL
“Macart 2:16 – bit sexist, what?”
No really.
I do mend my own clothes and bake. 🙂
Funniest thread ever on Wings, haven’t had such a laugh since they made Jim Murphy leader of SLAB expecting him to win back voters. Great posts, luv it.
Keep it up! Good for the mood. 🙂
The most pervasive & insidious trolls are of course, those working at the BBC.
Using the protection of its £5 billion budget, the parochial, jingoistic London Establishment peeks at everything from under a leaking umbrella of political & economic self interest, sleeze, corruption, criminality & greed.
Yet, it works to manufacture & propagate massed outrage at those who cling on to the fringes of our ghastly, unequal society with little more hope than that provided by an inadequate benefit cheque, a lottery ticket, two weans with runny noses & a homemade wad of filter free, fags.
Those willing & able to confront the British Establishment are marginalised, through its elitist news broadcasters & publishers, when they are accused of behaving like radical insurgents with freakish aspirations & incongruous, illogical & illiterate protests & arguments.
This perceived threat towards an established political & economic power base by the collective voices of ordinary members of the public invariably initiates strategies & tactics to create discourse, division & doubt.
And what better means is there to do that, than the BBC’s trolling, beamed, as if by some miraculous Establishment intervention, right into the living rooms of millions of homes all across the country.
Still paying the TV License Fee? Then step aside & shut up. Otherwise, get a ticket & join the queue. The second independence referendum polling stations will soon be opening in a town, near you.
The thing about reactionary abuse, is that it only works up to a certain point. Once those seeking change are in a majority (or near majority) it becomes totally counterproductive. So I hope the BritNat zoomers keep up their malicious work.
Labelling nationalists as Nazis or loonies, or making threats, or calling us c***s was a valuable tactic for unionists when 30% were pro-Indy: it served to make some soft Yes supporters cowed in voicing their opinion, and let the unionists pretend to represent the bulk of the population. But with a 45% Yes vote, followed by a 51.3% popular vote for SNP/Green/SSP at the GE, the same tactics will have the opposite effect. Unreformable unionists are in the minority now: they know it, and the general public knows it. Simplistic Nat bashing has passed the point of diminishing returns. EVERYBODY knows a Yes voter who’s not a loony and not a jingoistic nationalist. EVERYBODY knows Yes is positive and celebratory, and NO is weak and defensive. EVERYBODY knows the union is broken. The more the BritNats abuse, the more they make our point for us.
Of course, they will clock on eventually. For IndyRef2, expect more sleekitness and more weasel words and innuendo, but less direct abuse. The PsyOps from Pacific Quay will remain the same: ‘Scotland is wee and embarrassing’; ‘you are powerless, and in a minority’; ‘HM Gov is remote and omniscient’. Those PQ tactics will become the standard for unionist reaction.
There is always the threat of abuse simply because you disagree with anothers views.
On something such as the referendum no one should be surprised that it can bring out the beast in some people. it was that important to them.
I’ll argue and argue hard for my point of view but doubt if any of my disagreements have become abusive on either side. I guess it’s up to the individual as to what they may class as “abuse. Wearing your heart on your sleeve and letting people know where you stand is risky for some, you are saying “This is me and I believe this” then you may, note, I say may invite abuse, simply because you are making yourself known.
We have had half a dozen or so Wings nights out, where to be honest I have expected some kind of abuse or even organised abuse. It has never happened, mostly we invite curiosity. “Who are these people with the badges and silly hats?” 🙂
The vast majority are just the same as us and live and let live. Zoomers are just that, Zoomers and a fairly rare species.
A great retort when someone accuses you of being something you consider yourself not to be, is the wonderful one Jeane Freeman used twice on Andrew Neil ….”I think you are confusing me with someone else”.
While I stood manning a SNP stall a Tory-type said, “you should be ashamed of yourself”. That nice deflection came to mind. I replied using the phrase. He walked off having failed to make whatever point he had in mind.
It’s a nice gentle and polite one to knock the wind out of someone’s sails.
@ G H Graham
Surgical precision there – ouch !!
@ G H Graham – forgot this
Damning @pressgazette: “Everyone involved on the right side of the Savile argument has been forced out of the BBC.”
link to pressgazette.co.uk
Re; my post at 4.25pm.
That’s what i get for letting my anger get the better of me and not reading beyond the first 2 paragraphs.
Apparently, it was given to him by a business who received help from Charlie Lugs.
Still, considering the many thousands of people suffering throughout the UK due to financial hardships, you would think they would pull out all the stops to prevent our noses being rubbed in it, eh!
Abuse in person yes 11, no 13. Which in proportion to votes cast. In the flesh, both sides seem equally guilty.
Abuse online yes 20, no 11. Remembering that there are actually more No voters, online abuse is much worse FROM NOs online.
So why the difference online and in person? Odd.
Could it be that NOs online feel they have their backs to the wall? They lash out much more often in frustration. The online world is generally accepted to be the preserve of YES.
Graeme @ 3.24
On the delicate topic of the unionist perception of ‘how someone who wants their country to be independent can be thought of as ‘("Tractor" - Ed)ous’?
The way I’ve come to view this is that the hardcore unionist mindset perceives a ‘scotnat’ as ("Tractor" - Ed)ous to Britain, often through the prism of Brit involvement in wars and military conflicts, this being a crucial bonding aspect in their sense of loyalty – note how often this military aspect is celebrated at Ibrox and how the poppy has become an important emblem within The Rangers support.
The hardcore unionist has been socialised/hardwired to accept GB/UK as the Mother country with Scotland considered a lesser, inferior, sub-unit (but with an obviously rich military tradition) subject to the much greater ‘Whole’.
Of course I am generalising, but I am pretty sure the typical Brit views the natural homeland as GB/UK and any talk of sub-unit claims for autonomy (be it Ireland or Scotland) are viewed as ("Tractor" - Ed)ous to the history and integrity of their beloved Union.
So it goes.
Sorry if this has been posted earlier but here is a link to the National YES registry fund raiser. They are trying to raise £8,965 and only have £3,446 so far. For those interested in helping them out here is the link.
link to indiegogo.com
Camz says:
29 July, 2015 at 12:46 pm
90% of “Did Not Vote” folk did not get abused at all.
10% did though. Is that likely, or did the abuse put them into a “not voting” stance?
Its probably the abstaining labour mps and they deserve abuse for not doing their job lol
I remember also a confrontation at omni greenside place Edinburgh,pretty close to the vote,we were pushing the NHS narrative and a middle aged well to do looking lady,dare I say Typical Tory! Started screaming at a colleague that there was no threat to the NHS,she was shouting rubbish rubbish in a mobbed street on a Saturday trying to tear the leaflets out of his hand it was the day of the huge anti privatisation march in London conveniently ignored by all MSM in Scotland. My colleague tried to show her it on his mobile. “Not listening! RUBBISH RUBBISH!” I can still hear her toff Edinburgh accent now! Think it’s fucked me up psychologically that vote. Lol!
The dog above;
Good strong points.
I have found that No voters are also strongly tribal with an unhealthy, bizarre and unquantifiable loyalty to the Labour Party. Obviously that flush was busted during the GE for some but it will still be strong with a new sense of resentment that their “team” was humiliated by the SNP.
dogphilosopher-think you have hit the nail. Wondering if the vast majority of scots in the British army are no voters? Always thought they would be.
Never got real abuse and I never gave out abuse either. However I never shifted my position when discussing it with folk, some of who were unionist hard cases.
They are today pretty quiet on the whole and a bit sheepish, while now I am pretty upbeat about the future for Scotland after a few months of being really low.
PS:
Here’s a man who’s feeling up beat, little good that will do in Scotland though!
link to archive.is
Tattie Bye… the noo.
Tesco says the ‘tattie scone’ is coming back in two weeks. Never knew it had gone!
The way the English Establishment, EBC, Civil Service & MSM bad mouth the Scottish people and lie openly about Scotland is abuse in the extreme, I was under the impression that we were in a United Kingdom.
Lordy Sewell resigned so that he “does not bring more disgrace or contempt onto the HOL which he adores” You really couldn’t make this up. Think the lordy’s house and members have already got themselves a bit of a reputation so Lordy Sewer might as well sit tight, Dave is planning to send some more wasters (200) to liven up the house of cards and give it some new blood.
Lordy Sewer was I think something to do with “standards of members” in HM upper house?
As I say you couldn’t make this crap up. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN AND HER LOYAL LORDY’S.
I remember Ian Murray had his shop window abused by a small sticker, it was horrible, just horrible.
OMG G4jeepers I’d forgotten about that – the most shameful example of nat abuse during the whole campaign, no wonder Morningside voted the way they did in the GE.
thedogphilosopher 5:14 pm
You wrote: “Of course I am generalising, but I am pretty sure the typical Brit views the natural homeland as GB/UK and any talk of sub-unit claims for autonomy (be it Ireland or Scotland) are viewed as (“Tractor” – Ed)ous to the history and integrity of their beloved Union. So it goes.
… I could beat round the bush here – but instead, I’ll call it what it is – a load of old cods-wallop!
Firstly, I do not know a single person that would accuse a Scots Nat of the Tractor act because they want Independence. Secondly, large numbers of Welsh and English consider themselves to be Welsh or English first – just like most Scots.
So stop with the ridiculous, silly, straw man arguments (maybe your name tells us everything we need to know). Do you actually believe these things? Are you far up your jacksy that you have convinced yourself that the only people that are proud of their own home country is a Scot? You really do need to get out more.
Sources to back up my earlier claims of self interest & greed have been conveniently provided by the Colonial Governor & Spiritual Leader of Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale, Mr. David “Fluffy” Mundell MP, himself.
link to tinyurl.com
According to analysis published in 2009, Mundell was ranked among the worst performers among MPs’ value for money, by ‘The Sunday Telegraph’.
He came in 587th place for 2007/08 based on his contribution in parliament as he attended 47 per cent of votes, spoke in only 11 debates and submitted just 16 written questions in the year while claiming £169,187 in total expenses, including travel, home, office and staffing costs.
His photographic ambitions also came to light after claiming three grand for camera gear including a copy of Adobe Photoshop; all paid for by you & me of course. But his interests reach far beyond mere photographic paper. His greatest interest appears to be in himself.
By that time, his “Out and About” section of his website displayed more than 700 pictures, mostly of “Fluffy” in various parts of his constituency, doing pretty much fuck all, apart from posing like a gormless idiot in front of road signs.
You know, if constituents want this clown to represent them in Westminster, then that’s their business. But I wouldn’t get one’s hopes up that anything productive, meaningful or useful will come of it.
I also happen to have an interest in photography http://www.ghgraham.com. You may have seen my work but regrettably, have had to make every single investment in time, materials & equipment using money pulled out from the arse of my old blue jeans.
As Bonn Scott so economically phrased it, in his reflective anthem, “Ain’t no fun (Waiting round to be a millionaire)”,
Well they used to be blue,
When they used to be new,
When they used to be clean,
I have to go now & pop some of the 27 pills I take to fight the Lyme borrelia infection I caught back in 2013.
Meanwhile, if anyone has any more insight into Mundell’s state sponsored piss taking, send me a private message. Today, I could do with a laugh.
Re Sewell, good timing that it came out in the midst of Brit Establishment Paedophile allegations
Holebender says:
29 July, 2015 at 1:55 pm
The big difference, IMO, is that abuse on the Yes side originates with the foot soldiers and is publicly discouraged by the high heid yins.
A very good point!
All through the independence and GE campaigns, and as recently as last week (cavemen), so called respectable pillars of society have been offending people who voted YES and/or the SNP. I have yet to hear any offensive remark about NO voters from senior members of the SNP or independence groups – can you imagine the uproar in the MSM if any of our reps had mouthed off the way Darling and Blair and their chums did? And yet any nasty comment by senior unionist politicians is ignored, whilst the MSM focus on a few nutters (nobodies) on the YES side!
You would think by now that the BBC and the Tory press would have realised by now, that the people are wise to their nonsense, but no they keep digging deeper with their “SNP bad, cybernats nasty” narrative.
Leave them to it, I say, it’s counter-productive.
“Firstly, I do not know a single person that would accuse a Scots Nat of the Tractor act because they want Independence. Secondly, large numbers of Welsh and English consider themselves to be Welsh or English first – just like most Scots.”
England owns, controls, exploits Scotland sensibledave. Its that simple and that complicated.
A @ heedy 6.47
More codswallop heedy – and your response has got absolutely nothing to do with the quote.
O/T Haven’t seen a Robert Peffers post for awhile now. Is he okay, does anyone know?
sensibledave says:
29 July, 2015 at 6:57 pm
A @ heedy 6.47
More codswallop heedy – and your response has got absolutely nothing to do with the quote.
Its all about language sensible.
Project Fear tried to scare the living shit out of everyone in Scotland on the hand and on one of the several other hands, Scotland got the strength, safety, security, above our weight punching etc under the wing of England.
All complete pants ofcourse, as the last Osborn budget displayed to the horror of a lot of NO voters.
England will be fine on its own sensibledave. Just wish chickens like you could accept that and leave Scotland be.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it’s a shame the bloke who wrote the Britnat abuse bot on Twitter didn’t write an equivalent Scotnat abuse bot.
Would have been interesting to see their total retweets compared.
For those of you who like to keep old articles etc.
Here are some archived articles from The Chicago Tribune:
link to archive.is
Look sensibledave, hard core Project Fear from just one UKOK newsroom stuffed with all kinds of toryboy fun.
link to economist.com
Running on Scottish fumes sensible?
link to expressandstar.com
Loads of new drilling licences as not Scots oil drags UKOK toryboys away from the abyss, again and again and again.
How do they manage to defraud Scotland so easily sensible? Fear and loathing. UKOK
Just before the referendum last year, I was traveling along the M8 heading to Maryhill Foodbank to drop off a bottle of whisky as a donation for one of their Race Nights, when a came alongside me and the driver started honking his horn to get my attention.
When I looked across he started giving me the “wank hand shuffle”, yelling that I was a wanker, he flipped me the bird, laughed then sped off accelerating beyond 80mph.
He must have seen the “Yes Car Stickers” in my back window and decided to verbally abuse me. He of course had a NO Thanks up in his rear window.
I didn’t mind the abuse, but hanging over his passenger seat and not watching where he was going at 70 while he dished it out was just plain dangerous.
OT, whats fluffy and co up to here?
Is this not going to be handed over to Holyrood?.
Something fishy going on, and pound to a penny these two companies are connected to the tories someway or another.
link to archive.is
Soz OT once more.
This friday it’s going to be a blue moon.
So here is the scenario, SensiBull Dave is relaxing in his lounge sipping a sweet sherry whilst reading oor Ecks book,and suddenly the truth hits him.
link to youtube.com
Interesting what you say about Yes car stickers, McV, we had a saltire flying off our roof, our windows and front door were covered very cheerily with SNP, Yes, CND and Women for Indy stickers but I wouldn’t put anything on our car, being our son’s motability car and terrified that folk would key it.
I can’t say I had much abuse, a couple of zoomers, one in particular an older man who was absolutely raging about 16 and 17 year olds being allowed to vote in the general election. My rebuttal became almost robotic as I sensed he wasn’t reading what I was replying and finished by saying we would never see eye to eye and thanked him for his time.
By the same token, I tried not to give out abuse. I’m no saint online, but try as much as possible to play the ball and not the person.
I have to say I also felt nervous about being on my own wearing any Yes t-shirts/badges, but ok if there were a few of us. There’s background, that I won’t go into here.
One time I was leafleting for our now MP Douglas Chapman and had a red hoodie on under a lightweight rain jacket. Two builders watched me approach and said “are you Labour?” quite pointedly… “naw, SNP, lads”. Gave them a leaflet each as their faces broke into big smiles. I loved that.
Just to make the point, I unzipped the jacket to show that the hoodie was branded for Contact a Family, as I used to be a parent rep in Fife for them…till they got SamCam as a patron.
Maybe the “inner voice” has been abusing a few No voters who regret the decision they made in September. 😉
“Not a single solitary scrap of proper comparable scientific evidence exists anywhere that we know of to back the proposition that Yes supporters are more abusive.”
The Pravda GB led “Better Together UK OK” know how to spin awkward evidence into their favour.
They think we still live in the pre internet age.
From “The Scotsman” 8th May 2012. “Dr Mark Shephard of Strathclyde University hosted a discussion in the House of Commons – Discourse on Scottish Independence – Politicians versus Publics. ……. “The findings based on analysis of online comments under articles on independence , show the vast majority of posts are anti-SNP/independence and anti-Salmond rather than anti-English/anti-union. In terms of language too, comments about the SNP and independence are much more vitriolic than about the union and UK”. As far as I know still the only “official” report on internet abuse – Not the ramblings of overblown, overpaid and under intelligent Labour apparatchiks or racist “newspapers”.
Not all yes people are abusive i am one of the nicest
“Not all yes people are abusive i am one of the nicest”
Then we’re all in a lot of trouble.
[…] There’s been something of a resurgence recently in pundits bemoaning online abuse and saying “Yes, there are bad apples on both sides but the overwhelming majority of offenders are Yes supporters”. […]
Late night Tellen1 is miles away from the passive-aggressive Aspergers syndrome character we all know and loathe.
Either a different operator to the 9 to 5 one, or a couple of cheeky Bacardis lets loose his inner demon…
It’s purely arithmetic. Scotland pretty much splits in two so both camps equal in terms of arguments amongst Scots and likelihood of abuse, but then if you add in the other UK interest (mostly English) which tends to be mostly anti-independence then there are probably more anti-independence online commentators than pro overall (on social media as a whole). So if someone makes a comment that is pro-independence then there are probably more people reading that who are in opposition than the opposite scenario.
If that makes sense? Basically, assuming a person is equally likely to be abusive whether pro or anti- independence (which might be argued by some but I’d stick to unless shown otherwise as I see no reason otherwise) then the numbers explain the survey results.
[…] the pro-independence side. This narrative was completely wrong. Polling data from sources both in favor of and opposed to Scottish independence showed that independence supporters […]