Lies then and lies now
When supprters of Scottish independence cite the infamous McCrone Report – a UK government document suppressed by both Conservative and Labour administrations in the 1970s because of its explosive revelations about the potential wealth of an independent Scotland – Unionists have a standard tactic.
Mumbling that it’s all ancient history, water under the bridge, and things are different now, they attempt – quite understandably – to swiftly move the discussion away from the uncomfortable reality of how much trust Scots should place in the word of London governments on the subject of oil revenues.
Today’s Sunday Post carries a front-page lead story which notes that in the 40 years since the original report was hidden from the Scottish people, nothing has fundamentally changed. As almost nothing of the Post is currently available online, we’ve included a hefty extract from the article below.
————————————————————————————————-
HEALEY ADMITS OIL TAX COVER-UP
The former Labour Chancellor, Denis Healey, has admitted his Government played down the value of Scotland’s oil reserves in the 1970s because of the threat of nationalism.
Now Lord Healey of Riddlesden, the Labour peer said tax receipts from oil is the biggest factor behind Westminster opposition to both next year’s and the 1979 independence referendum.
The 95-year-old also claimed the Westminster parties are “worried stiff” about Scots voting Yes in next year’s poll because of the valuable income from the North Sea. Meanwhile he joined former Conservative chancellor Nigel Lawson in backing a bid for the UK to quit the European Union.
Lord Healey said the UK would “suffer enormously” without the billions of pounds of tax from North Sea oil. He said:
“I think they [Westminster politicians] are concerned about Scotland taking the oil, I think they are worried stiff about it. I think we would suffer enormously if the income from Scottish oil stopped but if the Scots want it [independence], they should have it and we would just need to adjust. But I would think Scotland could survive perfectly well, economically, if it was independent. Yes, I would think so… with the oil.”
In 1974 a leading Government economist, Professor Gavin McCrone, wrote a report which stated that Scotland would have had “embarrassingly” large tax surpluses as a result of the North Sea oil boom. Lord Healey’s Labour government decided to keep that document under wraps until it was eventually released in 2005. Reflecting on this time, Lord Healey said:
“I think we did underplay the value of the oil to the country because of the threat of nationalism but that was mainly down to Thatcher. We didn’t actually see the rewards from oil in my period in office because we were investing in the infrastructure rather than getting the returns and, really, Thatcher wouldn’t have been able to carry out any of her policies without that additional five per cent on GDP from oil. Incredible good luck she had from that.”
Asked if he had considered establishing a sovereign wealth fund with the oil revenues to invest in the country’s future when he was in office, he said: “It’s true that we should have invested the money in things we needed in Britain and I had thought about an oil fund, but it wasn’t my responsibility by then.”
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We’ll forgive the Post for talking about the 1979 “independence” referendum just this once. The piece is apparently based on a longer interview with the former Chancellor which will appear in Holyrood magazine tomorrow. It should be a fascinating read.
In the meantime, readers might like to bear Lord Healey’s comments in mind the next time the No campaign is peddling its routine about how Scotland’s enormous natural resources are in fact just a source of volatility and danger, and how we’re best not worrying our pretty little heads about them and letting nice old Auntie Westminster take care of everything. After all, she’s got our best interests at heart, right?
I’ve said for long enough, the only reasons we are having this vicious No campaign is because of the oil/gas tax revenues and the potential loss of harbouring of Trident submarines. These are the main battlegrounds and all the other scare stories are to undermine and obfuscate sowing seeds of worry and doubt.
Amazing that this appeared in the Sunday Post of all places. It’s not exactly known for its radical ideas is it? This article just shows why the UK government is so against independence for Scotland. They know fine well what an asset Scotland is and don’t want to see that taken away. if Scotland were the liability that the usual suspects on the Daily Fail and the Torygraph claim it is, do you not think we’d have been cut adrift long ago?
Anne (@annewitha_e) says:
19 May, 2013 at 9:35 am
I’ve said for long enough, the only reasons we are having this vicious No campaign is because of the oil/gas tax revenues and the potential loss of harbouring of Trident submarines. These are the main battlegrounds and all the other scare stories are to undermine and obfuscate sowing seeds of worry and doubt.
This…
Anyone fancy delivering a copy of the ‘Post’ to Sharleen Spiteri ?
A coincidence that Campbell Gunn retired last week?
Isn’t it about time we stopped getting annoyed and got a wee bit more angry?
Not sure this is news, Healy was saying the same things on a (and fair play to them) BBC documentary a few years ago. However it is welcome to have this spread further because most people I talk to *still* think independent Scotland couldn’t pay its way. Scottish poverty is the Big Lie that won’t die.
Had to laugh at 17 year old Labour activist Michael trotting out the hoary old volatility scares when asked about oil during the young ‘yin’s debate @ link to bbc.co.uk Nothing like learning your lines by rote, eh?
McWhirter in fine fettle over at the herald, great article here. link to heraldscotland.com
Ah, at the end of a week that also saw Bawbag sent packing, and McCrone getting aired in the Post of all places, I’m feeling quite upbeat, long may this continue.
It is no surprise that the naysayers are continuing to use the same jaded disinformation and smears as they did in 1979 and 1997. I really wish that one mainstream media outlet had the inclination to publish some compare and contrast stories.
More people need to be aware that the scaremongering has no substance – while this site, National Collective and others are valuable sources, they are routinely dismissed as minority propaganda outlets.
Let’s have a whipround and buy the Hootsman – should be pretty cheap.
Rev, The UK are officially the most incompetent government on the planet.
Scottish Referendum 1979
1979 – UK National Debt £80 billion
2012- UK National Debt £1,065.billion
Increase in UK National Debt + £985.billion
1979 Value Norwegian Sovereign Fund £Nil billion
2012 Value Norwegian Sovereign Fund £476 billion
So the UK Treasury cultivate a staggering £1,461 billion loss for the people during the period 1979 – 2012 or $2,206billion dollars
But the loss to Scotland is proportionally MUCH greater
£96 billion is now Scotland increased share UK Debt
£476billion is Scotland’s lost Sovereign Fund Value
That’s a £572 billion poverty and austerity cost of UK Better Together!
But separately – There’s Better Together – US Style
The UK Treasury cultivate a staggering £1,461 billion loss for the UK people during period 1979 – 2012 or $2,206billion dollars if you prefer – because –
(a) US derivatives and War caused the UK debt explosion
(b) It was 100% US Economic /Foreign policy the UK were following and
(c) best of all, the UK borrow the money to service the debt it owes to the US owned World Bank – from, among others the Wall Street based Goldman Sachs.
So that’s perhaps why Goldman Sachs have just appointed an ex partner as the Bank of England’s new (US) Governor
Upbeat I may be, but I also agree with Tom Hogg about getting a wee bit more angry, Hunter S Thomson once said that smearing your opponents with lies and scare stories, forcing them to waste time – that could be used more productively – denying and refuting the fear and lies, is one of the oldest and most effective of political strategies. We have seen nothing but from BT over the past months, and it is time that we got angry rather than wringing our hands and apologising.
Not that the Rev. does hand wringing, of course. 😉
Foulkes, Forsyth et al, with their accusations of cybernattery, have they ever looked at the threads below any Scottish story in the Mail or the Telegraph? Or Ron Northcott’s Twitter feed? Or the post Olympic tweets posted on here, the brain dead savaging Salmond in their dreams?
Time to go on the offensive, I reckon.
Now Lord Healey of Riddlesden … said tax receipts from oil is the biggest factor behind Westminster opposition to … next year’s referendum. (He) also claimed the Westminster parties are “worried stiff” about Scots voting Yes in next year’s poll because of the valuable income from the North Sea … (and that) the UK would “suffer enormously” without the billions of pounds of tax from North Sea oil.”
Well there you are. At last the TRUTH behind the scare stories. Nice to see it in The Sunday Post.
Rev, Scotland need out of this post empire neo con madness. Scotland have a loss of sovereignty to the UK and the UK are a completly indebted US controlled state. US Bank debt (the global derivitives scheme) transferred to other nation citizens is fiscal war – the US are creating indebted nations and poverty – then ruling by proxy. UK = compliant US proxy foreign and economic policy following state. Scotland are NOT yet engulfed in that plan.
19 May, 2013 at 9:51 am
A coincidence that Campbell Gunn retired last week?
I know Campbell and he is very much in the YES Camp
@Stuart Black
At 10:05 am
I agree Stuart. It is long overdue that we pushed a bit harder. Yes to a positive campaign and no to scaremongering I would hate for Yes to indulge in that and lets face it we don’t have to. But what is negative about pointing out your opponent’s lies and using the occasion to promote the truth?
As to the MSM I think that we are near the point when even your average non-aligned and non-anorak punter is reading the pish in the papers and thinking “Aye right – heard it!” Same for the BBC.
I agree that Farage has been a gift. If for no other reason that it illustrates the point that we have very different attitudes to his kind here, and better ones at that. The “outrage” will more or less be forgotten but the images of the day will stick in people’s mind for some time yet and many will be proud to se him getting what he deserves on the streets of our capital.
Aye and what about The Sunday Post. Crivens jings whatever next. An editorial in The Peoples Friend?
Sunday Post should sell well today.
Tom Hogg says:
19 May, 2013 at 9:53 am
Isn’t it about time we stopped getting annoyed and got a wee bit more angry?
————–
To be honest, I feel like that at times. However, I’m putting my faith in the Yes campaign, and hoping …hoping …that at the start of 2014, they will blitzkrieg the Scottish nation with adverts, facts, accusations, and televised debates where the Unionist Charlatans are severely put to the sword.
I’m hoping that when the facts do come out (and I’m talking about adverts about the facts everywhere), that a lot of the Unionist public, become extremely angry themselves, as they realise they have been lied to, and have defended a concept that turns out to be untruth after untruth.
I’m hoping the likes of Michael Moore, Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling, and all the other Scottish MP’s who lied through their teeth are hounded …absolutely hounded by the Scottish people, for lying to their own people.
i’m angry at this very moment, but I will wait …wait till next year. And God help the Unionist Labour boy who comes to my door, asking if I would like to vote ‘No’ …a rollicking …hell, with my wrath, his ears will be melting…
Now, that’s what I’m waiting for!
overtRod Mac
I’m glad you confirmed my feeling about Campbell Gunn. In the good old days after FMQs when Brian Taylor had a few foments to go over what had happened, CG was a breath of fresh air compared with Macdonnell, Cochrane eiI?
What “lies”?
What was the forecast for 1980 oil production, announced in Parliament in 1973?
What did the actual figures for 1980 turn out to be?
Who was “downplaying” what, exactly?
“What “lies”?
What was the forecast for 1980 oil production, announced in Parliament in 1973?
What did the actual figures for 1980 turn out to be?
Who was “downplaying” what, exactly?”
What is this, Riddle Week? If you’ve got a point, make it. Preferably with sources.
And God help the Unionist Labour boy who comes to my door, asking if I would like to vote ‘No’ …a rollicking …hell, with my wrath, his ears will be melting…
Ah, JLT, I for one cannot wait for the Unionists to ring my doorbell. I’m going to invite them in for a cup of tea, and listen carefully to everything they want to tell me, for I am indeed very interested in their arguments. Then, after all that, quietly and genially dissect their claims, statements and suppositions, before eventually explaining to them why everything they just said was a bag of mince. Best case scenario, I give the Unionist something to think about. Worst case scenario, they just leave – but at least I’ll have taken time away from their campaigning.
I HATE predictive text! For eil read etc.
Kimberley@
Yes, I agree with what you say,personally I have long protested the idea that if there was a realistic timescale for the actual of the North Sea assets coming to an end soon, then Westminster would pretend their opposition but would in reality let us go.
The oil revenue is what they want AND need, without it they would secretly “Allow us to go” and possibly even quietly encourage us to do so. We are in the same position as we were in the 70’s , as are they. We are being mugged, if there is a NO vote,then that will continue. Until the oil does decline, then that will create another mindset in Westminster where they will want rid of us ASAP.
This is the reality, Scotland en-mass needs to recognize this fact and see through all the guff being thrown at us and discount it all, for it is only for the benefit of Westminster and not for either the benefit of Scotland, nor their love of us.
I honestly believe that Scotland does have huge potential, we are an inventive race and with restrictions removed, once we are settled in our new skin, it will vastly improve everything about us in very many ways.It will, after our transition period be like stepping into the light.
The Man in the Jar says: @Stuart Black
At 10:05 am
I agree Stuart. It is long overdue that we pushed a bit harder. Yes to a positive campaign and no to scaremongering I would hate for Yes to indulge in that and lets face it we don’t have to. But what is negative about pointing out your opponent’s lies and using the occasion to promote the truth?
100% agree, TMITJ. Yet this is what is being pushed constantly by the No Scotland mob, they feel free to make the most outlandish assertions and, when challenged, play the cybernat hatred and thuggery card. Say it loud and say it often, and their tame media will broadcast their lies far and wide.
However, this supine acceptance that there may be some truth in these accusations, from the Yes side has to stop. Time to go on the offensive. While staying positive and on message, of course. 😉
I also agree that we are seeing signs of the people starting to realise that they are being force fed a unremitting diet of absolute pish from the press, and I welcome this. I fully expect it to continue and expand, and result in increasingly bonkers attempts at scaremongering as the plethora of No groups become increasingly desperate.
Help ma boab, things are looking up…
Former Labour chancellor Denis Healey confessed in his memoirs entitled The Time of My Life that Britain “would have been bankrupt without North Sea oil”.
As far as I’m concerned Healy’s admission is just the tip of a very large iceberg when you consider the shortfall in spending attributed to Scotland but not spent in Scotland there’s a lot more where that came from >:(
Well done Sunday Post!
Even though not on-line their market penetration is immense. I bang on at times about how if we can normalize the Yes vote then we will win because the fearties, don’t knows and don’t cares who do vote will vote for the normalized position. The Sunday Post is as normal a you can get. We should share this, going against what the Post says is like going against your Great Auntie Jeanie, it will pull in doubters of all ages.
Denis Healey – the best Yes Campaigner we never had?
The Sunday Post changed about 2 – 3 years back I got sick of emailing with complaints about their political bias. They no longer claim in their Editorial Policy that they do not hold particular political views after I challenged them under the trades description act – a coincidence no doubt. And I reckon Campbell Gunn is glad to be out of it.
Taranaich,
One thing I’m really hoping for …really hoping for, is that Salmond gets his revenge. I may not agree with everything that Alex says, but the abuse …the absolute abuse, drivel and hatred that that man has had to suffer over the last 4 or 5 years is a national disgrace.
If the Yes campaign can get their hands on documents that proves that ‘certain’ folk knew about the real facts about oil, and helped in colluding and deceiving of those facts, well, if I was Alex, I would be naming and shaming them live on TV. Show the people the papers, and then place a microphone in the face of the accused, and let them try to explain their way out of it. In fact, I hope Alex does it during the live debates!
Seriously, I’m dying to see certain people try to deny or wriggle their way out of the web of lies that they helped to collude …and yet, hopefully …they themselves will become stuck in those very lies.
After the Farage incident last week, my patience (like other folk here by the looks of things) is getting to the wafer thin stage. I’m sick of the lies, accusations, finger pointing, and demands for apologies, when the Yes campaign have done hee-haw wrong.
When Johann Lamont brought along the cancer patient to Holyrood last week, and ambushed the First Minister, I thought that was an utter disgrace. I hope wee Johann gets her comeuppance and is slaughtered on the 19th of September 2014 when the result is finally in, and hopefully, it is a Yes one.
I really do hope, Alex Salmond, has his day in the sun, for he’s bloody well due it!
@Stuart Black
at 11:00 am
And as for the “wet” nats. I think that they can damage the Yes cause by accepting or at least not refuting unionist scare stories. Witness the hand wringing even here on Wings regarding the Farage incident. Not standing up against the lies and smears only gives the lie and smears some credibility.
Oil is the key which will open the door to independence, of that there is no doubt. Almost every unionist I have ever spoken to always punts the lie that we are too wee and too POOR to govern ourselves. Living in Aberdeenshire, having two sons and many friends who work in the oil industry and watching oil offices spring up like daffodils in April (well May this year) in and around Aberdeen, I am well aware that Scotland’s oil industry is booming. The problem is just like the Seventies, we will be screwed unless we get independence. I am with others on here who are calling for us all i.e. all who would see their country free, to up a gear, get a little bit angry, go on the offensive, get off our knees and stop apologising for wanting the right to self determination. I thought Nicola Sturgeon was excellent on Thursday night, but we need more of the same, much more. Time for us all, especially the SNP (I speak as a member) and the YES campaign to go on the offensive. If we don’t, we will be robbed of our natural resources for a second time. For following generations we cannot allow that to happen.
My worry is that the UK has many times in the past undermined foreign governments, sabotaged democracies, deposed leaders, installed dictators, started wars, etc, etc, to get their hands on others’ oil. Do you really think they won’t try every trick in the book – inventing a few more in the process – to keep a grip on us?
Yes, I hope the Farage circus stiffens a few backbones, despite some negativity coming back from the usual suspects, this was a great advert for the kind of robust political debate that has been ever so stifled in recent years.
Everyone has seemed scared to speak out, pollies have free to pontificate with little or no scrutiny or challenge, but now that Farage has been righteously harangued, and the sky hasn’t fallen down, perhaps we’ll see a bit more robustity (I made that word up) entering into politics.
I think it is time to target our anger properly. Forget Westminster cover-ups and lies about oil revenues. That;’s politics and they are desperately trying to save the UK and England
Every Scottish Tory and Labour MP knew and knows about the cover up on oil revenues. Those are the real bastards
PS Campbell Gunn is indeed a good guy and one of us – and not a bad singer. I’ve heard him singing at SNP conference events
In the 1970s when the true value of the oil was clear, Tony Benn MP also lied to cover up the truth from the Scottish people — so much for his sense of honesty and being a man of the people.
What was the forecast for 1980 oil production, announced in Parliament in 1973?
70 million-100 million tons.
What did the actual figures for 1980 turn out to be?
80 million tons, within the predicted range.
Christ just ignore BT. It’s a fringe group now.
Having been in Campbell Gunn’s company, I’m pretty sure he’s voting Yes.
Here’s the reason they want to push granny oot her hoose
to afford this
MPs are in line for a dramatic pay rise of up to £20,000 in a move that could spark public fury.
The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (Ipsa) has been looking at an increase of between £10,000 and £20,000 – although the lower figure is considered more likely.
The hike would be partly offset by curbs to their gold-plated pensions and personal expenses.
Ipsa took responsibility for MPs’ salaries and pensions two years ago, and has been carrying out a fundamental review.
A survey released by the watchdog in January found politicians on average believed they should be paid £86,000 rather than £66,000, with some demanding more than £100,000.
Speaker John Bercow is among those who have been pushing for better remuneration, warning that the Commons must attract people from all backgrounds.
Ipsa is due to deliver its initial proposals for consultation next month, although the main changes will not come into effect until after the general election in 2015.
However, any significant rise is certain to be controversial as the economy continues to struggle and the rest of the public sector is subject to tight pay restraint.
Officials are concerned that David Cameron and other party leaders may find it difficult to back such an increase.
Last month ministers acted to reduce the government element of their pay so they did not benefit from a 1% increase granted to MPs.
Jiggsbro
Yes, those are the numbers I’ve seen. The forecast is in Hansard, the outturn in DECC or IEA figures.
So these numbers weren’t “downplayed” then. If anything, the public official forecast was actually a touch on the optimistic side.
By taking Westminster logic on board, I consider myself lucky that I did not win Friday’s Euro millions lottery.
How would I have coped with such a massive windfall?
Malcolm says:
Christ just ignore BT. It’s a fringe group now.
Quite.
It’s Untied with Gordon we’re supposed to back if we want to help fill the opposition benches across from the UK Tory-UKIP Government from 2015 onwards.
So these numbers weren’t “downplayed” then.
That’s true, if one instance in 1973 was ‘the 70s’ . It wasn’t though, was it? Or if ‘value’ was the same as ‘production’. It isn’t though, is it?
The Denis Healy story could be a real gift on so many counts –
The oil is valuable and vital to the UK economy.
Successive UK governments squandered the revenue that the oil generated and mismanaged the sector.
The Labour Party knew the true value of the oil to the Scottish economy but suppressed the information in order to undermine THEIR OWN campaign for a Scottish Parliament. In other words, the set up a “false campaign”, pretended to campaign in favour of it, but withheld any information that would encourage Scots to vote for the very thing that Labour was pretending to be in favour of. That is deception on an epic level.
The Labour Party have made it a key plank of their current strategy to undermine the SNP’s credibility and popularity by implying that the SNP cannot be trusted in anything it either says or does.
We now have a former Labour Chancellor confirming that the Labour Party deceived the electorate in 1979 in order to sway the vote. Surely the Yes Campaign should be able to easily empirically demonstrate that it is the No Campaign and Scottish Labour that have been lying through their back teeth and surely the SNP can use it to show that Labour and Better Together are untrustworthy and to promote their own honesty and credibility.
OT – I read that George Galloway is playing the religion card to damage the Independence campaign. Well, I was raised Catholic, am a member of the SNP, and will strain every fibre to do what I can for Independence – I HAVE NEVER, NEVER, Mr Galloway heard any anti-Catholic rhetoric from ANYONE in the Independence movement! So you align yourself with the likes of the Orange Order if you like but the great respect I once held you in is totally gone. Shame on you, shame on all bigots and racists. They mainly exist on the Britnat side. Just remembered didn’t Galloway have a meeting with Ed Miliband a few weeks ago – I hope this bigoted intrusion into the debate wasn’t born in that meeting!
@Rev Stu
O/T Forgot to say that you got a mention yesterday at the rally in Glasgow. The young bloke from National Collective was encouraging us to use the on-line media, blogosphere, twitter, etc. to get our message across….and specifically mentioned National Collective, Newsnet and WINGS OVER SCOTLAND! Just so you know 🙂
21march1978
Callaghan PM Making a statement on a white paper The Challenge of North Sea Oil
link to hansard.millbanksystems.com
Even then the SNP ( Mrs Bain) was asking about an oil fund but was being told it was wrong to deceive the Scottish electors into believing this was possible
Further on another Labour mouth says Thatcher and Mrs Bains only concern seemed to be to get their snouts in the trough quickly and early
Bill McLean It is not just Galloway who is trying to stir up the sectarian card ‘ did one or two of our more observant friends on here not pick up on Farage stating that the protestants in Scotland are a persecuted minority .
I would have hoped that anyone trying to stir up sectarian hatred in Scotland would get a visit from the boys in blue explaining to them the error of their ways .
Let’s not forget that westminster is sitting on pre 1997 referendum cabinet papers which should have been released by now but are actively being concealed at the behest of the Scottish office.
just what do they contain that is so bad for the unionists that a labour government’s perfidy is being actively protected by a tory/lib govt?
£66,000 per year and they’re getting a raise to potentially £86,000? Unbelievable!! I would do it for a third of that. And I would do a better job. I’ve gotten a little angrier by the day since all this began. It’s an aneurysm waiting to happen.
Interesting stuff. It looks like part of this story surfaced back in 2005 when Cabinet Office papers were released:
link to news.bbc.co.uk
The downplaying wasn’t done through the quantities produced. The oil was always running out.
Definition and relevant rules of law
When a contract creates a duty that does not exist at common law, there are three things the parties can do wrong:
Nonfeasance is to ignore and take no indicated action – neglect.
Misfeasance is to take inappropriate action or give intentionally incorrect advice.
Malfeasance is hostile, aggressive action taken to injure the client’s interests.
Example: A company hires a catering company to provide drinks and food for a retirement party. If the catering company doesn’t show up, it’s considered nonfeasance. If the catering company shows up but only provides drinks (and not the food, which was also paid for), it’s considered misfeasance. If the catering company accepts a bribe from its client’s competitor to undercook the meat, thereby giving those present food poisoning, it’s considered malfeasance.
The rule of law laid down is that an action in contract (ex contractu) will lie for any of the three. However, an action in tort (ex delicto), will lie only in misfeasance or malfeasance. The doctrine was formerly applied to certain callings carried on publicly.[1]
At present the terms misfeasance and nonfeasance are most often used with reference to the conduct of municipal authorities with reference to the discharge of their statutory obligations; and it is an established rule that an action lies in favour of persons injured by misfeasance, i.e. by negligence in discharge of the duty; but that in the case of nonfeasance the remedy is not by action but by indictment or mandamus or by the particular procedure prescribed by the statutes.
This rule is fully established in the case of failure to repair public highways; but in other cases the courts are astute to find evidence of carelessness in the discharge of public duties and on that basis to award damages to individuals who have suffered thereby.
Misfeasance is also used with reference to the conduct of directors and officers of joint-stock companies. The word malfeasance is sometimes used as equivalent to malpracticeby a medical practitioner.
we have a case against successive Westminster governments since the early 70’s
the settlement would run into billions
“Let’s not forget that westminster is sitting on pre 1997 referendum cabinet papers which should have been released by now but are actively being concealed at the behest of the Scottish office.”
Its time we DEMAND their release
“The Labour Party have made it a key plank of their current strategy to undermine the SNP’s credibility and popularity by implying that the SNP cannot be trusted in anything it either says or does.”
Seems to me that the reason labour is SO against independence is we’ll find out what they were really up to and Lamont knows the secrets and knows if they come out they’ll be unelectable in Scotland forever
“just what do they contain that is so bad for the unionists that a labour government’s perfidy is being actively protected by a tory/lib govt?”
I seem to remember Henry Mcleish saying he could think of no reason for withholding the papers as nothing happened that could be construed as not in the public interest to withhold it
I get the distinct impression he was to use a phrase putting the goons to sleep,
could be wrong but seem to recall it was said in the great escape
If MP’s get a pay rise of £20,000 that is arise of 24%, isin’t government payrises set at just 1 – 2%, how could they justify those types of figures in todays current economic climate. This should be used to good effect by the YES campaign.
Also thanks to the Sunday Post for that front page.
Vote Yes, Vote Scotland.
Alba Gu snooker loopy!
Look folks the media already new this when the McCrone report came out and they did very little with it, we are talking about the kind of thing which in other countries could have brought down governments, the media played about with it for a few days, then let the unionists away with their ‘Oh that was thirty years ago’ guff.
It’s not what the media do with this, it’s what WE do with it and not just in reference to the oil, but in in trying to make people think, if Westminster lied about this what else have they lied about? Could there be other reports hidden away somewhere? How can Scotland trust ANYTHING Westminster says?
We should also challenge the unionist politicians on how they view the actions of their predecessors.
Sorry if this has already been pointed out but you can access the full Holyrood Mag’ article over on the YES web-site NOW!
Way back…well it was last year, but it seems an age…I remember Angus Robertson talking about the ‘long game’. It’s not so much the rope-a-dope strategy of exhausting your opponent, but deliberately sitting in a comfortable defensive position while he flings all the pish he has at you. Waiting. I bet AR reads Sun Tzu:
The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
What’s happened to all that money that the Weirs & other have given? The Yes campaign has none. The SNP are even calling in levies for the Donside BE. The answer is that it is being sat on. Waiting.
Soak up the pish; keep the work going; don’t lose the heid. The attack will happen; maybe not until the last three weeks – but it will.
Interesting uses of us and they. No real acknowledgement that he was one of the perpetrators of this deception, just as Gordo will not accept that he was complicit with Bliar in the Iraq regime change by financing it.
The language of BT is also illuminating as is their use of FUD, it implies that they think they are the elite and we the rabble. The SNP have been clever to allow Yes to make the running so hiding the fact that they as the Government are the real elite and at 30% are the underdogs so making people interested in what do they know that makes them so determined on independence even though everybody hates them.
You’ne got to give it to Gordo, he is a poltical animal. He seems to have cottoned onto the de haut en bas and gone with the Liverpool granny which is at least an us meme even though liable to why no the Lisbon granny and why didn’t it happen in Labour’s last ego-trip.
@kininvie
Just like my cousin the Duke of Wellington at the lines of Torres Vedras 🙂
Well:
“1979 Value Norwegian Sovereign Fund £Nil billion
2012 Value Norwegian Sovereign Fund £476 billion
So the UK Treasury cultivate a staggering £1,461 billion loss for the people during the period 1979 – 2012 or $2,206billion dollars
But the loss to Scotland is proportionally MUCH greater
£96 billion is now Scotland increased share UK Debt
£476billion is Scotland’s lost Sovereign Fund Value
That’s a £572 billion poverty and austerity cost of UK Better Together!”
I quote above. Says it all. SO a robbery that even the Mafia could not pull off. About £500 billion. Yet they want Scotland to pay them, pat of the UK national debt, if they vote Independence!!…..thats sheer extortion. Healy should be deeply ashamed.
#BetterLiarsTogether
For a large number of Scots, Denis Healey’s intervention will vividly bring to life for the very first time, the scale of the deceit, lies and obfuscation delivered by Westminster to Scotland.
The Yes Campaign must capitalize on this in their grassroots campaign; that’s us too! In particular, the Sunday Post will have great resonance in the West of Scotland. The newspaper that brought us “Oor Wullie” and “The Broons” historically spoke to the working class of Glasgow and its environs. I’m off to find some hard copies of the paper!
The whole article from Holyrood magazine.
link to holyrood.com
Cracking article and Healey just priceless.
The Man in the Jar says:
19 May, 2013 at 10:30 am
“Crivens jings whatever next. An editorial in The Peoples Friend?”
The People’s Friend (the clue is in the name!) was originally an offshoot of a crusading progressive newspaper – the People’s Journal. The PJ ran a lot of reader-written copy, so much that they had to start a complete offshoot magazine – the People’s Friend.
Source : Popular Literature in Victorian Scotland by William Donaldson.
I have always found it interesting that Willie Donaldson is not a career academic and easily uncovered a treasure trove of Scots Language prose, that the greasy pole climbers somehow never ‘noticed’
There’s no British solution for Scotland – there never was! The labour party claimed it was the conduit of working class solidarity and working class solidarity worked best at the British level. We waited and waited, Wilson, Thatcher, Blair and it never materialised. Now we read that they lied to us all along because they wanted our money – surprised. Before oil there was massive heavy industry. They’ve been stealing from us for generations – while we waited for the Labour Party’s British working class solution to arrive. Vote Yes in 2014
@Macart –
Thanks for that link to the Healey interview. Good stuff.
Surprised at the man’s age, but he still seems very sharp.
@handclapping
Ach, my cousin wis there tae. So wis ma grannie. See yon lang-nebbit Duke? Kent his stuff….nivver be feart o’ learnin frae history…
I’m glad it is in the Sunday Post, because they reach a readership that we could only dream of. Their columnist also savages Gordon Brown’s arrival on the scene.
” robustity (I made that word up) entering into politics.”
nothing wrong with that I’m all for a bit of robustitty
er did I spell that right?
Currywurst says:
19 May, 2013 at 10:54 am
What “lies”? What was the forecast for 1980 oil production, announced in Parliament in 1973? What did the actual figures for 1980 turn out to be? Who was “downplaying” what, exactly?
link to independent.co.uk
btw the actual figure for 1980 was 3.743 million pounds
rereading the independent article from 2005
where Tam Dalyell says
” “It could have tipped the balance it a number of seats including mine. Oil was very much a totemic issue. It was new and it was dramatic. Politics at that time was very different. In 1974 my majority went from around 6,000 in February to around 2,000 after the October general election.
“It was most unpleasant. People were saying ‘it’s our oil’.”
oh how very fucking dare we
I didnt know whether to throw stuff at the monitor or laugh,
but I’ll tell you my anger is simmering and close to boiling point
and I voted in that election as an 18 y/o at my very first election
An updated view on McCrone report (.pdf) with comments, referencing other westminter commitee and discussions at the time is available from
link to yestorphins.net.
It illustraites also in the report why the Scottish Martitime boundary was moved, The tactic of the treasury to “Talk Down” any aspect of Scottish ecconomy under independence (incl. oil).
Nothing change in the tactics in almost 40 Years.
Stevie says:
19 May, 2013 at 11:51 am
“In the 1970s when the true value of the oil was clear, Tony Benn MP also lied to cover up the truth from the Scottish people — so much for his sense of honesty and being a man of the people.”
Yes, and he sold the national oil board off to BP for tuppence.
He kind of half admitted it after the McCrone FOI, maybe now he will ‘fess up.
We should direct our rage at the Labour, Tory and LibDem SCOTTISH MPs who were and continue to be complicit in continuous lies to the Scottish people.
We elected them to look after our interest and they lied to us deliberately
john king says:
20 May, 2013 at 6:44 am
“rereading the independent article from 2005
where Tam Dalyell says
“ ”It could have tipped the balance it a number of seats including mine. Oil was very much a totemic issue. It was new and it was dramatic. Politics at that time was very different. In 1974 my majority went from around 6,000 in February to around 2,000 after the October general election.
“It was most unpleasant. People were saying ‘it’s our oil’.”
oh how very fucking dare we
I didnt know whether to throw stuff at the monitor or laugh,
but I’ll tell you my anger is simmering and close to boiling point
and I voted in that election as an 18 y/o at my very first election”
Brian McNeill:
“So to hell with the heather and the glen
They cleared us off once, and they’ll do it all again
‘Cause they still prefer sheep to thinking men
Ah but men that think like sheep are even better
There’s nothing much to choose between the old laird and the new
They still don’t give a damn for the likes of me and you
Just mind you pay your rent to the factor when it’s due
And mind your bloody manners when you pay”
I’ve been asked to do a short-ish piece on the McCrone report for the Scottish Socialist Party’s splendid ‘Voice’ magazine, and have a few days to recap the material covered here and elsewhere.
Most of the ‘Voice’ readership will be aware of the basic facts, but I want the piece to be something they can stick in front of a sceptical neighbour or family member and say ‘There ye go – the facts.’
In the fraternal spirit embodied by my surname, I’m appealing to WoS readers to suggest a snappy, inviting header – something to grab the hypothetical ‘undecided’ LIV by the proverbials…
The piece will refer to the Healey interview, then set-out the bare bones of McCrone’s assessment, links to the best available summaries, and, of course, the actual report.
The piece, if approved, will appear in the ‘Voice’-after-next, in a fortnight or so.
I shall now pour myself a small Lambrini and await the torrent of suggestions.
The whole ‘McCrone’ scandal, in seven words or less? Is it possible?
We’ll soon find out.
Be creative, and let rip!
Cheers all!
PS I hereby promise to buy the ‘winner’ a drink of their choice whenever we first meet – preferably in an independent Scotland.
‘Sussex, Lies and Oleo Rape.’
‘Fool me once….’
‘I’m a Moron, Take My Money.’
@ianbrotherhood
Hey! Hey! It’s The McCronies?
True Lies?
Oil be ‘avin that, said the men from Westminster?
Oil Unearthed, Truth Buried?
Hidden Oil, Hidden Truth?
The Geology of Truth?
The Geology of Lies?
🙂
Thanks chaps – keep ’em coming.
What if I just nicked Rev’s ‘Lies Then and Lies Now’ – would that be plagiarism, or a tribute?
Labour seem to emerge the stinkiest of all in this sorry tale – would like to acknowledge their role somehow….it’s a tricky one, eh?
How about a picture of John Bull and the caption “Would I Lie To You?”
@ianbrotherhood
Scotland, It’s Oil, The Labour party and Their Lies… Then And Now (?)
Hmmm.. It’s a tough one. A lot of info/ideas to be got in to 7 words, though not impossible. I’m one of those creative types who does this sort of stuff from time to time. “Lies then, and lies now” is good and I’m sure the Rev would think it a tribute.
I’d probably suggest you read through your article and see what you see in it. Oft times I find direct inspiration for title copy in the body of an article. It’s kinda like looking for “bullet points”, then you put ’em all together and see where word and image connections lie. A bit of a “David Bowie”, as it were. You’d be surprised how often it can lead to a good tagline.
Best of Luck, sorry I couldn’t find the right words for you.
“LIES, DAMN LIES AND STATE TACTICS”
“BELIEVE ME, I’M A SPIN DOCTOR”
“OILS WELL THAT ENDS WELL”
“WELL DRILLED DECEPTION”
“DOSVEDANYA DERRICK?”
“LIE TO ME – AGAIN”
“WHAT LIES BENEATH?”
“FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME”
“FOOL YOU TWICE, SHAME ON YOU”
“‘TRUTH’ ABOUT OIL RIGGED?”
““LIES, DAMN LIES AND STATE TACTICS”
Nice one, Mr McGregor! 🙂
Ta
I liked ‘THE GEOLOGY OF LIES”
I think maybe it should more correctly be:
“LIES, DAMNED LIES AND STATE TACTICS”
“LIES, DAMNED LIES AND STATE TACTICS”
Yup, that is better IMHO. It infers that the lies themselves are damned and by implication damn others. Not just those who said the lies, but those who were lied to.
A cracker there, Mr McGregor! 🙂
[…] “I think they [Westminster politicians] are concerned about Scotland taking the oil, I think they … […]
[…] the discovery of North Sea Oil, have blocked oil exploration on the Clyde, and were complicit in suppressing the McCrone report, which predicted the massive potential wealth to Scotland. Why should I vote to […]
I just want what is Scotlands right to be in control of its own resources,we have been denied the truth from Westminster,and to make it worse our MPs have played a part in all of this by denying the truth,the time has come for our nation to get rid of the unionist MPs that have failed us.
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