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Wings Over Scotland

Lies caught while you wait

Posted on August 17, 2014 by

Here’s Alistair Darling on Radio Clyde this morning, reported by STV:

“I’ve always said Scotland could go it alone, however you’d have to cut your cloth according to your means.

I think it would be less successful and we’d be less prosperous if we left the UK, if you look at countries like Denmark you pay a lot more in tax, the amount of money that people have got to spend is less.”

You know we’re not going to let that one slide without a fact-check, don’t you?


UK: 2496 (£2003 at current exchange rates)
Denmark: 3113 (£2499)


(Remember too that Denmark is a far more equal country than the UK – as almost all countries are – so you have more chance of actually getting that average than you do in Britain, where in reality you’re more likely to be on much less.)

“Ah”, any good Unionist will reflexively retort without a moment’s pause, “but the cost of living is higher in Denmark – don’t you know it’s £700 for a round of drinks etc etc?”

Fortunately, though, we’ve got the stats for that too. According to the OECD, prices in Denmark are 16% higher than in the UK. So we need to add 16% to the UK figure to get a fair comparison of what the average wage will buy. And that makes the figures:

UK: £2,323
Denmark: £2,499

In other words, even after you factor in tax rates and the cost of living, the average Danish worker is £176 a month better off than their British counterpart. Or if you prefer, the not-unhealthy sum of £2,112 a year.

Of course, you can forgive Alistair Darling for considering that sort of sum as a mere rounding error. At his typical rate for giving speeches to bankers, he can drone his way to that much money in around 14 minutes. Nevertheless, “the amount of money people have got to spend [in Denmark] is less” is still a flat-out lie, and by a long way.

Sorry that one took so long, folks. We’re a bit busy at the moment.

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  1. 17 08 14 17:22

    Lies caught while you wait | Scottish Independence News

  2. 18 08 14 15:50

    Darling’s Danish deception | Aye 2014

266 to “Lies caught while you wait”

  1. Dan Lee says:

    Seems he didn’t lose his chancellors job for no reason then? 🙂

  2. Grouse Beater says:

    I am beginning to detest the sight and sound of Darling for I know he is incapable of honesty.

  3. heedtracker says:

    The liar’s pants on fire again. Not only but also, Denmark does not have trillions of dollars in offshore oil and gas, 25% of all Europe’s green energy, vast area of the Atlantic ocean etc, like what Scotland has. Nor do they have a couple of giant banks waiting to crash again and prove UKOK Flipper was right. Bet they wish they did, not.

  4. Peter Macbeastie says:

    Darling has always bugged the living daylights out of me. They push him out like a guru on all things financial.

    I can only assume they’ve forgotten just how inept he was as chancellor.

    I personally would send him an abacus with precise instructions on how to use the damn thing.

  5. CUTOMMY says:

    Where did you source the table?

  6. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Try clicking on it.

  7. mogabee says:

    You’ve got to wonder what on earth does he talk about to earn so much money on the speech circuit.

    And is only us that he lies to!

  8. David Officer says:

    £176 would pretty much double the amount I have to spend each month on luxuries like shop bought sandwiches, the occasional record or going out for drinks with friends. It’s peanuts to Darling but potentially massive for those earning well below average wage in the UK.

  9. macart763m says:

    Yeah, you can see why he made such a hit as chancellor. 😀

  10. heedtracker says:

    Look at Slovenia at a 1000 euros a month and yet even they can afford pensions way higher than teamGB. Cant wait to tell my Slovene girlfriend over at Bettertogether Slovenia, Prof Aliesbadas Tomkinski.

  11. Az says:

    Great debunking.

    Add to this the fact that average earnings in Scotland are lower than the UK average – £20,862 (2011, The Guardian – most recent figures I could find) divided by 12 is £1738.50 a month.

    At what point does a ‘distortion’ become an outright lie? My defamation lawyer would like to know! 😉

  12. Graeme Doig says:

    We’ve probably missed a couple in the time it’s taken to read this 🙂

  13. Az says:

    @ David Officer

    Exactly. And just imagine the knock-on boost for local businesses with many more people doing as you described.

    What an economic boost!

  14. Croompenstein says:

    I don’t really give a monkeys fuck if I have to pay more tax Darling some of us have a sense of duty to all of society and not all about how much we can personally make out of it. The best people to govern Scotland are the people who live and work here if it means paying more tax I will gladly pay in the knowledge that I won’t be subsiding your gravy train or heinous WMD

  15. Lesley-Anne says:

    You know we’re not going to let that one slide without a fact-check, don’t you?

    Oh you’re not going to fact-check are you Stu, and the pair wee man was having such a brilliant Sunday as well. Oh well, if you must I suppose you’d better go ahead and fact-check, put the pair wee man out of his misery … AGAIN! 😛

  16. alexicon says:

    Of course Darling was conveniently talking about direct taxation and not indirect taxation.

  17. a2 says:

    “Of course, you can forgive Alistair Darling…”

    Pushing the boundaries of reality there.

  18. galamcennalath says:

    Perhaps a new way to approach this? A prize for the first alert reader to find an example of when Darling last told the truth?

    Greetings like “good afternoon” wouldn’t even count … How can it be good when he’s on the scene?

  19. Andy-B says:

    Well spotted Rev.

    I listened to the whole thing Alistair Darling spoke for an hour,then it was Alex Salmond’s turn. AD spent much of his time denouncing the SNP and then virtually blamed them for the closure of the Ferguson shipyard.

    Here is the full progamme for anyone wishing to listen to it.

  20. PI3GUB says:

    It seems just as easy for Blinky to lie as it is for you to debunk the bejesus out of it.

    Can’t wait to see what’s got you so busy

  21. Andy Howie says:

    “A prize for the first alert reader to find an example of when Darling last told the truth”

    Easy, during the debate when it was revealed that he said that Scotland could be a successful independent country…

  22. scunnered says:

    another pack of lies from the no camp..we all get a good laugh at the lies but cant somebody do anything about it,this referendum is killing me everytime i hear the lies on the bbc and the bbc editing and cutting off to suit themselves my heart rate and blood pressure goes through the roof..its got to the stage i just want it to be over no matter what the decision i dont think i can take another 5 weeks of lies..ive tried not watching but its everywhere..and another thing where is salmond and the rest of them we hardly ever hear from them and when we do he just talks about driving on the wrong side of the road and aliens..will the real alex salmond please stand up and finish what he started

  23. jon esquierdo says:

    He said exactly the same on radio Tay

  24. jon esquierdo says:

    Was this covered by all the independent radio stations at the same time?

  25. Jim Savage says:

    Has anyone compiled a list of Darling’s lies – and where can I find it?
    It would be useful for a website I am working on.

  26. Grouse Beater says:

    If anybody who hasn’t met and talked to him this might interest you: Alistair is not my Darling – grousebeater.wordpress

  27. Faltdubh says:

    Listened to both.

    Darling was stuttering, spluttering his way through the hour whilst Salmond was calm, clear, and concise. And most of all, humility. He acknowledged that he didn’t do as well as he could have on some issues in the last debate, but will be spelling them out in the next one.

    We are on the verge, folks. Get oot there and speak. People are wanting to vote yes. Those hugely numbered of undecided people are coming our way, even if it’s those 5 seconds in the polling booth on the day when they finally make their decision.

    Many soft Nos will not even turn out. Sure some will, but I think many who are unsure or leaning towards No will stay away at that day and not vote against their own country.

    Looking forward to this Declaration tomorrow in Arbroath.

  28. heedtracker says:

    They’re all mad with their own lie machine. Just watched not future Lord Douglas Alexander on Sky news tell us that the current “crisis” in Iraq should not inform teamGB policy in the Middle East. It’s hard to know whether these guys are just dangerous idiots or pathologically corrupt.

    Whatever Alexander is trying to get away with this evening, he’ll do really well with that positive attitude working in a call centre or building scociety next year.

  29. willie fae kilwinning says:

    Cant remember who picked up on this earlier re Darling saying that Barnett is in play re HS2, Crossrail, London sewers, etc, and that Scotland gets it’s share re money spent.

    I know this isn’t true but where/who can provide the facts.

  30. Croompenstein says:

    The tabloidisation of political interviews may win viewers but it is not engaging their political consciences

  31. Tattie-bogle says:

    Did he not mention scotland would benefit from the HS2 and London sewers

  32. Muscleguy says:

    Note also that Denmark doesn’t have pretensions about needing a big nuclear dick or big unaffordable aircraft carriers or not as good as rated Astute class subs to waste their taxpayer’s money on.

    That bridge across to Sweden for eg wasnae cheap and it has measurably boosted economic activity on both sides of it.

    Think what sort of things to boost the economy we can afford in Scotland just on military savings alone?

  33. Ian Kirkwood says:

    Well done Stu, I did not expect any less from you. Interesting to note is that the Danes are ranked the happiest people in the world too!
    Your point about taking the equality factor into account is, for me, the most important part of this. Having lived in Sweden for many years this is the biggest single differentiator when comparing the Scandinavian social democracy model with the UK elitist preference.
    By no means perfect or without issues but a damned sight better than what the current WM mob are serving up. The higher standard of living, relatively low crime rates and overall quality of life is well known and can be achieved in iScotland given time.

  34. kestral says:

    Hi folks

    I have started a chat room for WOS to discuss the logistics of getting the wee blue book out

    its a private room so the only way to join is through this link

    Stu / Kininvie – if you have the time to discuss some forward planning on this, it’s so much easier than doing it through email

  35. call me dave says:

    willie fae kilwinning

    Had a quick look found this to be going on with if it helps.

  36. Flower of Scotland says:

    How many more lies? It’s not just now and not just Darling! I’ve just watched John Jappy,s YouTube video again! It amazes me that they have kept Scotland,s wealth secret since 1968! We could have done so much for our people during this time! We might not have lost so many young people to richer countries! It makes me want to scream in frustration! I have indeed many NO friends who are still not converted and live in a village where there are as many NOs in windows as YES! These aren’t stupid people, but Unionist come what may!
    Andrew Wilson wrote a good piece in the Scotsman. Hopefully some will read it!

  37. Tattie-bogle says:

    willie fae kilwinning
    I mentioned it earlier didn’t quite believe i was hearing it but he did say Scotland gets a £ for X amount spent when questioned about HS2 and London infrastructure which i’m sure he was lying about as the sewage upgrade is out with barnett and i would think the HS2 would be as well probably some of you guy will know for sure.However i do think it was another giant Whopper fae Flipper

  38. Sandra Wilson says:

    I think the last time Alistair Darling told the truth was when he said “I do” during his wedding ceremony. After his part in the banking crisis the man should be ashamed to show his face in public.

  39. heedtracker says:

    One real world vote NO shocker means bringing even more teamGB austerity cuts to Scotland, while Westminster spend billions and billions on England’s new high speed rail network or Trident 2.

    BetterTogetherBBC are on the attack over Yes apparent privatising NHS fearmongering but how do you equate massive infrastructure spends in the south of England that Scotland will suffer for, with planned giant UKOK supply side spends around London.

  40. Tattie-bogle says:

    will the HS2 be cancelled upon a yes vote as they won’t have all the juicy oil moneys. as wales are demanding 4bn

    “Although any money due to Scotland would be dependent on the results of the Independence Referendum, Plaid Cymru have claimed Wales should receive an extra £4bn, whilst Northern Ireland would be in line for £1.3bn”

  41. Ann says:

    Gosh, I wish I got the average 2011 UK wage today.

  42. Dan Huil says:

    A made-up title, a seat in the undemocratic house of lords, and a cushy bonus-bumptious job in the city, these are the things Darling is interested in, not the welfare of the people of Scotland.

  43. ErinT says:

    @ Heedtracker

    Thanks for the pension information! Interesting stuff to see how little of a wage the UK state pension replaces.

    The claims of scaremongering over the NHS by the Unionist side are strange. The Barnett formula and the relation to external spending seems pretty clear cut. There is also the worry that a Labour government, in addition to aiming for more privatisation, would seek to “unify” the currently independent health services. I think it was Andy Burnham that mentioned this – I’m very open to correction though.

    Now, that is a worry since we would likely see Scotland adopt England’s policies (I’m guessing this based on population size) and many of the policies currently used in England are far less progressive, more limiting and, admittedly, more humiliating than those available in Scotland. Case in point? The option to self-refer for gender identity issues in Scotland (the NHS clinic in Scotland sees quite a lot of self-referral from England) and much more progressive sexual health care.

    There is murmurings of this being adopted in England and Wales, but that will be three years later at the earliest! This isn’t an NHS system that would be desirable in Scotland for sure!

  44. Stanjay says:

    Shouldn’t you subtract 16% from Denmark’s ave.for cost of living, instead of adding to GB’s? Denmark still £96 better off though.

  45. Doug McGregor says:

    Average wages stats are just so much poo , the only one that matters is the top 5% take 50% of all wages in the UK . Almost everybody in full time work is in the 15k- 18k category , someone cleverer than me could probably explain why pols and media try to punt this BS.

  46. ErinT says:

    @ Stanjay

    I think the idea is to compare UK under a higher paying system, therefore increasing by 16% and then comparing directly with Denmark. Either way, the Danes seem better off!

  47. MochaChoca says:

    Here’s a wee page which lists countries by overall tax burden as a percentage of GDP.

    Theres not alot in it when it comes to UK and our other European neighbours.

  48. heedtracker says:

    This is a pretty accurate report on what’s really driving BetterTogether or at least it’s a huge driver behind their No Thanks lies n scares

    “Borrowing totalled £11.4bn over the month, higher than the £10.7bn forecast by economists, and £3.8bn more than in June 2013.”
    GERS has Scots deficit at just over £10 billion a year and it’s not Scotland’s national debt.
    If here is an austerity recovering going on, why is tramGB borrowing more and more, year in year out?

    UK national debt £1.3 trillion and it’s only going up and up and this is why there will be a currency union or they have discovered some way of keeping Scots North Sea and Atlantic oil reserves. They ain’t called perfidious Albion for nothing.

    “The Treasury said: “Today’s public sector net borrowing figures continue to be in line with the budget forecast, which predicts the deficit to have halved by the end of this year. But the job is not yet done which is why we must continue to work through the plan that is building a resilient economy.”

  49. Democracy Reborn says:

    You can always tell when Alistair’s lying. It’s when his lips are moving.

  50. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Just gone online and see there is a porn gif running above the gandhi quote. Have sent Stu an email but if others can tweet him if poss. Guess its the next attack M O

  51. Jamie Arriere says:

    More breathtaking stuff from Jim Murphy re the closure of Fergusons shipyard:

    “The question I think for the Scottish government is how those governments and those economies sustain commercial shipbuilding in a way that, over the past five years in particular, it seems to have slipped away in Scotland”

    Really? The last five years in particular? I think an analysis of the decline of shipbuilding since WW2 under Labour and Tory governments is in order.

  52. Appleby says:

    Why do they keep going on about the cost of a pint here or there? Do they really think everyone spends a substantial part or ALL of their wages on drink? For many folk it’s a tiny part of their spending, so it’s only a % increase in cost on a very small sum in the month/year.

    For those who are teetotal, they won’t give a damn either.

    I’d take the higher wage and more equal society that gives you a better chance of getting that wage any day.

  53. Croompenstein says:

    OT – Caught a great show at the Fringe, Anything’s better than these c*nts with John Scott and Viv Gee at the Beehive 1 in the Grassmarket…

    Comedy coalition Viv Gee and John Scott join forces to take the p out of politics. We may not know what we’re walking into with independence, but with fuel bills soaring, bedrooms taxed and food banks on the table we know what we’re walking away from. This isn’t ant-English, this is anti-greed, anti-bullying and auntie Margaret.

    It’s free as well so well worth catching.
    One of the best political descriptions I have heard was John describing Ed Milliband as ‘a puddle with autism’

  54. Colin Mccartney says:

    Darling was a lawyer, maybe that says it all.
    Most UK government ministers are briefed on what to say and when to say it.
    When they are cut loose, as in flippers case, they simply make it up as they go along, relying on the old premise of, if a politician says it , it must be true.
    Cue the internet and smarter people.

  55. Dave says:

    the economic case for the union can be found in this documentary
    remember the union was caused due to an economic case. It will be an economic case which will destroy it.
    This is the smoking gun of the independence debate,
    Please make sure you share it.

  56. Tony Little says:

    Hi Rev. Not to be pedantic, but shouldn’t you reduce the Danish figure by 16% rather than raise the UK one? This is still a healthy £151 MORE than the UK, but perhaps more appropriate calculation?

  57. Thepnr says:

    The truth is that when it comes to quoting actual facts, your average wings reader undoubtedly knows more than Mr Darling.

    His ignorance is dazzling and he can only hope to persuade those more ignorant then himself. Let’s get the Wee Blue Book read far and wide.

    Knowledge is power, the whole point of Project Fear was to prevent this knowledge getting into the public domain.

    We can spike their wheels and send them into the ditch by doing the job that an honest media should have done. It’s up to you people, give it your best effort and let’s celebrate in less than five weeks time.

  58. Tam Jardine says:

    Been out of the loop today and just picked up an email from Vote NOB – I received this because I had emailed BT yesterday fishing for someone to put in writing that they would pay me for canvassing.

    So the 2 organisations are so United that within 24hours of me contacting BT I am on the VNOB mailing list.

    Anyway – they sent me this weird video of a bunch of morons building a wall (across the border) only to knock it down. Because the evil SNP wants to build a physical border despite proclaiming that we will be part of a common travel area and the good Westminster parties are only interested in breaking down borders despite threatening to chuck one up at every opportunity.

    North is South and East is West people – check this out if you want to see how a 2 year old builds a wall without mortar.

  59. Croompenstein says:

    How on Earth can Flipper slag off countries like Denmark, Panama, Ireland, Iceland etc and get away with it. At the next debate we should get representatives from these countries to call Flipper out for the duplicitous lying bastard that he is.

  60. G H Graham says:

    Darling is a liar. And so is George Osborne.

    Despite all the austerity, British Gov is going to spend around £108 billion MORE in 2013/2014 than it receives in taxes.

    In 2014/2015 the British will borrow at least another £96 billion. By the end of 2015, the total debt will have reached well over £1.5 trillion.

    These are Osborne’s own numbers, not mine or the SNP’s or even Labour’s. They come from his own Treasury statements.

    Want some perspective? The interest on the debt is twice the amount Britain spends on Defence. It is equal to the entire amount spent on Education.

    The full horror story can be read here –

    Page 100 is where the main borrowing figures are explained.

    Want to know how much is going to be cut from spending?

    That’s easy because Osborne has laid it all out. This year it will be cut by about £12 billion. Next year, about £20 billion. In 2016 he’ll cut another £30 billion & in 2017 about £28 billion & in 2018 another £20 billion.

    Sure, the economy is expected to grow a wee bit more so taxes are expected to rise, but make no mistake about it, if the Tories remain in power after the GE, the plan is to slash public spending by a total of £110 billion over the next 5 years.

    And since Scotland contributes roughly 10% of this, expect our budget to be slashed by at least £2 billion per year, every year, for the next 5 years.

  61. TJenny says:

    Croomps – I too wondered what these countries’ leaders would say to AD if they were made aware of his slavering rants against them, especially given his financial ineptitude.

    Maybe though his rantings will just ensure a number of countries happy to have iScotland on their Christmas card list. 🙂

  62. Jim Thomson says:

    @Croompenstein 8:10pm

    Good luck with that e-mail to the BBC debate team 😉

    Wouldn’t it be glorious though 😛

  63. fred blogger says:

    state pensions in denmark are a miserly double uk state pension @ £11000pa compared to uk basic state pension of shade over £5000pa.
    plus there are other social benefits hence the reasons why their tax is higher.

  64. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    thanks for the heads up on AD. I have never met him but your description of him fits well. I have no particular desire to meet him myself.
    I am not sure why anyone on the BT No thanks thought it was a good idea to have him lead their campaign?
    But thankfully, this is just one of the many bizarre decisions the NO campaign has taken.

  65. fred blogger says:

    sorry the figures quoted above are not like for like.
    the like for like figures, will be as the new single tier incl serps coming into effect in uk 2016, @ approx £7500pa.
    but nevertheless the danish pension figures are considerably higher.

  66. Croompenstein says:

    @TJenny – Maybe though his rantings will just ensure a number of countries happy to have iScotland on their Christmas card list

    TJ I honestly believe that the vast majority of the international community are willing us on and will support Scotland when we vote Yes. The other voices that have spoken out against us will also welcome us in to the fold, if somewhat reluctantly. But perversely our best friend and ally must and should be England.

  67. Rock says:

    What matters to me is Denmark is a fair and equal society.

    And that is what I would like Scotland to be.

    We certainly wouldn’t be, but I wouldn’t even mind being poorer as long as everyone was more or less equal.

    Inequality, which increased during 13 years of Labour rule, is grotesque and the reason for child poverty and increasing food banks in Scotland.

    All UK averages are skewed because of a tiny minority with enormous wealth and income.

    If we take out that minority, UK wealth and income figures would be more in line with developing countries and far lower than the Danish averages.

  68. Minty says:

    OT- just been at the Book Festival. Rory The Tory has cancelled his appearance tomorrow. He must have his hands full with building that cairn.

  69. Brian McHugh says:

    It’s good to see some folks giving at least a bit of thought for what happens on September 19th…


  70. Capella says:

    A Telesur op-ed on Scottish independence

    Independence without Borders?
    15 August 2014

    ‘The question posed in next month’s referendum, yes or no to independence for Scotland, was intended by British prime minister David Cameron to make the alternative to the status quo look so radical that the forces of conservatism would win out – but it hasn’t gone according to plan.’

    ‘The referendum has become an invitation to say no to a superpower whose wars, most recently against Iraq, the Scottish people found abhorrent and yet were forced to join; a chance to say no to decades of social injustice and sacrifice at the altar of the global market by Conservative and Labour governments at Westminster, for which Scottish voters did not vote. It is, finally, a chance to refuse a democracy without substance in which MPs working 300 miles away and more are too distant to be accountable or subject to popular pressure.

    Most importantly, Scottish people have grasped the choice that they have to make directly – unmediated by the political class – as an opportunity to imagine the kind of society that they, the Scottish people, could build with the democratic possibilities of independence. The strength of these two dynamics, refusal and the sudden birth of new political imaginary, is such that there is even a question mark over whether Salmond’s SNP can survive the new political maelstrom.’

    Culled from a comment on Craig Murray blog.

  71. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Imagine Alistair Darling, Blair McDougall, McColm, Hothersall, Rennie, Lamont and all their nawbagging buddies, twenty years from now, crowing about how they saved the United Kingdom and the Free World, how it was their patriotic duty, how passionate they were, how crucial it was that they saved the Scots from imminent fascism under Salmond.

    For decades the McCrone report was spoken of in whispers by paranoid, embittered conspiracy nuts – now? Denis Healey can casually admit that they all knew about it all along.

    The BTUKOKVNOBNOTAHNKers know that they’re lying, and that they’ve got the MSM on their side. They know it, and know we know it, but if they win, they get to write the history. We can sure of one thing – they will emerge as Scotland’s saviours, no matter what happens to our poorest and most vulnerable.

  72. ianbeag says:

    I’m thinking this message contains the making of an effective poster and might help to convince some of the nay-sayers who still believe ‘we are too wee, too poor etc’
    – comments, suggestions please?

  73. Tam Jardine says:

    One of the strangest aspects of this referendum is the lack of a decisive argument for the No campaign – not a single one. There are plenty of uncertainties but absolutely not one single positive that stands any scrutiny.

    They’ve pummelled the Yes argument relentlessly trying to sow seeds of uncertainty but I have waited for a single thing we get out of this long relationship. If we’re not happy, if we’re getting screwed over and if we’re constantly demeaned and threatened it seems like a no – brainer. Why hasn’t France or Norway of the Republic of Ireland taken us to one side before now and said ‘you know, you could do so much better’

    This is an intervention by 63% of the population excluding those who don’t vote. It’s over – time to move on. The more AD and his cronies tries to show us how well off we are the more it highlights how much better we could be doing.

    I read this morning that Norway was the 2nd poorest country in Europe when they gained their independence from Sweden – it just highlights to me how fatuous AD’s position is. This step would be worth taking if our GDP was shite and we had poor exports. It is essential given our strengths and resources.

  74. GrahamB says:

    Two points:
    1) On Denmark – on a recent trip to Copenhagen we found prices expensive as expected but the locals were not bothered. They do pay more tax but their income is much higher so disposable income is higher than ours, contrary to Darling’s usual economic ignorance.
    2) Osborne’s plans to reduce the deficit are based on an annual reduction of 10% through further austerity with a projection of reducing to zero by around 2019 and only then will it be possible to start reducing the overall debt. So if 10% of the old UK economy removes itself, no amount of austerity in rUK will save them from bankruptcy, how sad.

  75. Tam Jardine says:

    Ian Brotherhood


    By the way – isn’t it strange how BTUKOKVNOBNOTAHNKERS
    is now a recognised term for hundreds of thousands of people instead of just a random collection of letters spewed together by typing badly? And how much longer is it going to get before this is over? The word Yes has a beautiful simplicity and positivity. The dark side’s acronym (if that is the right term) seems like an alien language.

  76. Grouse Beater says:

    Ian: Imagine Alistair Darling, Blair McDougall, McColm, Hothersall, Rennie, Lamont and all their nawbagging buddies, twenty years from now, crowing about how they saved the United Kingdom and the Free World, how it was their patriotic duty

    Aye. They don’t seem worried about not making friends.

  77. ronnie anderson says:

    Well boys n girls another good night for the Wings team & the Yes Convoy,well over a hundred cars van lorries were at Strathclyde Park, Partician will put up photo’s later in O/T.

  78. Lesley-Anne says:

    That’s excellent news ronnie. 😉

    Just one wee itsy bitsy little point. My partner says they weren’t lorries they were TRUCKS! We don’t use the “L” word everything is a Truck or a Van. P

  79. CameronB Brodie says:

    Both inequality and poverty cause health and social problems – they are forces that need to be tackled together.

    With a stagnant economy and banking reform years away, inequality between rich and poor still looms large. New research by Karen Rowlingson for the Joseph Rowntree Foundation shows that a combination of inequality and poverty can lead to serious health and social problems, and we cannot address one adequately without looking at the other.

    Without control over economic and social policy, Scotland will never be able to address the underlying causes of the crushing inequalities that blight our communities.

    Vote Yes to take responsibility over your community’s future and provide Scotland with 21st century tools.

  80. Brian McHugh says:

    Yew Choob just stuck a vid of the Convoy up… Brilliant :o)

  81. Albalha says:

    Hello folks been busy working for a Yes but if could see you’re way to chipping in to this relatively small fundraiser, much appreciated. Ivan McKee well behind it, just need dosh for volunteer expenses and outlays already out there.

  82. Croompenstein says:

    OT – New footage found from Lord Naw Naw Galloway….

  83. Lesley-Anne says:

    Love the wee Yew CHoob video Brian. Hell even Starsky is in the convoy for YES by the looks of things. Gawn yersel Starsky! 😛

  84. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Brian McHugh –

    That Yew Choob link is brilliant. You can hear the sheer joy in Jock Scot’s voice. Fantastic.

  85. Brian McHugh says:

    Lesley-Anne.. Ian… can you imagine on September 19th, every street in Scotland like Yew Choobs’ Video?

  86. Thepnr says:

    Well done Jock Scott 🙂

  87. Capella says:
    Wee Ginger Dug guest post on Health Service and privatisation is a must read and circulate.

  88. Nana Smith says:

    We heard lots of horns being tooted this afternoon but didn’t see any vehicles go past. I am wondering if there was a Yes convoy up in the Highlands today.

  89. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Oh FFS…

    Please nip over to the WOS Twitter feed and check out the snaps of George Galloway. Someone must’ve told him he looks cool in that gear.

    Not so much ‘Pale Rider’ as ‘Total Dick’.

  90. Indy_scot says:

    If you want expert advice on how to make the most of your expenses by flipping your home, or fancy learning how to bankrupt a country, Captain Darling is definitely your man.

    For anything else, avoid at all cost.

  91. Brian McHugh says:

    Excellent Fred :o)

  92. john king says:

    Jock Scots the man,
    and well done to all the guys in the convoy,
    George Kempik your a giant! 🙂

  93. galamcennalath says:

    Cameron quoted today … “Britain’s military prowess” … Time to leave them to it.

  94. UncleBob says:

    £176 extra a month, that would be most welcome, especially with the winter coming up and the huge price of electricity and heating oil. Maybe I can go though winter with my heating on for a change?

  95. john king says:

    “New footage found from Lord Naw Naw Galloway…”

    ggggggg got a guitar string on you there nephew?
    hahahahahahaha crambone.

  96. galamcennalath says:

    Capella says:
    “Wee Ginger Dug guest post on Health Service and privatisation is a must read and circulate.”

    Yes, worth everyone reading. NHS should be one of the main battlegrounds in the next 4 weeks.

  97. fred blogger says:

    yes, a good read.
    it will be, citizen welfare is the foundation stone of socialism.

  98. fred blogger says:

    yes, a good read.
    it will be, citizen welfare is the foundation stone of socialism.

  99. CameronB Brodie says:

    OT, but what’s going on here then? 🙂

    Former Labour First Minister Henry McLeish says “Of course there will be a currency union” between an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK, as he addresses an audience in the Scots Parliament saying the rest of the UK won’t “cut off its nose”.

  100. Lesley-Anne says:

    One question about Henry McLeish. How much longer will we have to wait until he finally crosses that infamous line in the sand and comes fully out for YES. We all know that deep down inside he wants to but he has been hedging his bets up till now. 😛

  101. galamcennalath says:

    @CameronB Brodie

    I wish he’d hurry up and just come out of YES!

  102. Boorach says:

    @ Albalha

    Tried to chip in but only option is credit card which I don’t use. Any other options available?

    Won’t be a fortune but ‘mony a mickle…’

  103. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    @Croompenstein 8.10
    It is all part of the delusion to pretend that UK has an Empire and is still important in the World and “punches beyond its weight”.

    It is not. The UK is completely bankrupt – both economically and morally.

    It is finished as a country and I hope we can leave it behind us and go on to build a new Scotland after the 18th of September.

  104. CameronB Brodie says:

    I wouldn’t know if that would help or not. Also, I don’t think I was actually OT there, as AD’s position on a currency union is most probably another lie. 😉

    In 2008, the City of London Corporation was the “founding member” of City UK an organisation which promotes the financial services industry based in the square mile and, according to its website, works to “demonstrate the sector’s contribution to society and sustainable economic development”. The Corporation funded City UK to the tune of £780,000 in 2012. Lambert says the fact that the Freedom of Information Act applies to the Corporation but it does not apply to City UK is “anti-democratic”

  105. davidb says:

    O/T. Its the 268th anniversary of Culloden, but that apart, whats the significance of a £268 donation? Its intriguing me.

  106. Claire B says:

    The FT article mentions something very relevant.

    US banks plan ahead for UK exit from EU

    Wall Street banks are drawing up preliminary plans to move some London-based activities to Ireland to address concerns that the UK is drifting apart from the EU.

    People familiar with Bank of America, Citigroup and Morgan Stanley told the Financial Times that they considered Ireland a favourable location for some of their European business if they needed to move them out of the UK. One said he was already planning to move some activities to Ireland.

    The people said their plans were in most cases still at very early stages. But they said the US banks had started preparing for the eurozone’s impending banking union that threatens to isolate Britain and, ultimately, for a possible UK exit from the EU.

    “I’m frankly looking at moving some activities to Ireland,” said one senior UK-based manager at a Wall Street bank. “I think the Irish central bank and government would welcome this. It is not so much Brexit, more about legal entity optimisation.”

    What is plan B, London?

  107. Croompenstein says:

    @johnking – Ha Ha john have u seen the picture of Lord Naw Naw wae the fedora and the guitar sitting behind him it just put me in mind of Crambone or of course he could be the half stoned cowboy of the big yins song

  108. Free Scotland says:

    Slightly O/T, I admit, but still on the theme of truth and lies, here’s a youtube clip of Danny Alexander telling the truth. This deserves to go viral.

  109. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Dr JM Mackintosh –

    Hear hear.

  110. Lesley-Anne says:

    There is a new interactive opinion poll site running for anyone wanting to pass on their views about Scottish independence.

  111. Ann says:

    The YouTube convoy clip is just across from the Petrol Station at the Western Link Road entrance to Dalgety Bay.

    Recognise the place as I walk up that way to work in the mornings.

  112. Johnny says:

    davidb @ 10:43

    It says on the site when you donate that £268 is the cost of buying the Daily Record and Sunday Mail for a year.

  113. Croompenstein says:

    How can anyone, I mean anyone in the bay vote no when you consider this…

  114. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    @Lesley Anne
    Henry seems to be doing fine for us already. Every few days he is coming out against the No campaign. Possibly does more damage while staying on the Inside?

    He may turn yet though – I would have him on Team Scotland for the negotiations after a Yes.

  115. Graeme Doig says:

    You tube of convoy at Dalgety Bay superb. Well done Jock (gave you the thumbs up on way to work at 1.30).
    Well done all those involved.

  116. Big Jock says:

    Lesley regards McLeish.Brinkmanship!Labour man spotting a future career but needs to keep potential Labour buddies sweet in case of a no vote.I trust labour people as much as I would a cat with a budgie!

  117. Sinky says:

    Interesting post on Newsnet Scotland from Sunday Times that deserves wider coverage

    SCOTLAND’S oil and gas revenues could be up to six times higher than those forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), according to an independent report which Alex Salmond, the first minister, said “blows another huge hole in the credibility” of the London-based fiscal watchdog.

    N-56, an apolitical economic think tank, has published an analysis of Scotland’s future oil and gas revenues which suggests they could be worth £365bn by 2040. The OBR has forecast a more conservative figure of £57bn.

    It claims that Scotland’s public finances could be comfortably in surplus by as much as 7% of GDP by 2020 — more than £12bn per annum — with surpluses of £9bn to £11bn a year in the 2020s and £5bn a year in the 2030s.

    The report calculates that an oil fund, could grow to more than £300bn — in today’s prices — by the end of the 2030s.

  118. Croompenstein says:

    OT catching up with the weekend football and caught Partick vs Argentina? I thought Dundee were the ‘dark blues’ meanwhile Kilmarnock are dressed up as Dundee Utd? after independence I would like to see our football teams wear their own ‘traditional’ strips.. 🙂

  119. Lesley-Anne says:

    I agree Doc, he does seem to be doing a fair bit in hammering the NO side without actually coming over into the light. Can you imagine the damage he’d do if he actually came all the way over into the light? 😛

    I think he is on the verge of coming across into the light BJ but as you say he is still trying to keep some of his Labour palls sweet just in case NO win. As the polls that the press condescend to show us get even closer still then he will I think finally decide enough is enough and jump. At this point then it really is game over for NO! 😛

  120. Stuart Black says:

    Lobbed a wee bit in, Albalha, not as much as I would like, but it’s been a hard week… 😉

  121. crazycat says:

    @ Lesley-Anne

    Having long thought that Henry McLeish was the prominent Labourite most likely to jump, I will now predict that he will do so at the end of the day – I just hope it’s the right day :).

  122. Mary Bruce says:

    Off topic, folks. Kevin Pringle is tweeting about a YouGov poll tomorrow which is positive for yes:

    He says the no campaign stance on currency union is boosting yes.

  123. Graeme Doig says:


    Despite this and everything else the Bay is a hard bit of commuter belt to make headway.
    Trying to do our best though

  124. crazycat says:

    Why didn’t I get a smiley face?
    Test 🙂 in case the full stop affected it.

  125. Lesley-Anne says:

    Same here crazycat, I just hope, like you he jumps over to the light side BEFORE 18th September. 😉

  126. I watched Danny Alexander make that freudian slip in the debate.

  127. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I don’t want to message Rev directly as he’s up to his proverbials, but perhaps y’all can help –

    Has anyone who requested WWBs received any notification of despatch etc? I asked for 1000, but haven’t heard anything back so far.

    Only reason I’m asking is that we (SSP Ayrshire) will be leafleting heavily over the next fortnight and I’d love to have them asap. Anyone expecting delivery imminently?

  128. Ian Brotherhood says:



    WWBs obviously means Willy Wonka Bars

    I should’ve written WBBs…

  129. RobFaeArran says:

    The link in the initial Alistair Darling quotes takes you to a STV News – Scotland Decides story titled ‘Salmond admits STV referendum debate currency position unclear’
    Could this story have been removed?
    Does anyone know how to get a cached version of the original story?

  130. X_Sticks says:

    Just got to the point of catching up and it’s time for bed. A hard but satisfying weekend on the street in Aberdeen. Busiest ever. Hundreds of posters, windows stickers and badges handed out. More people becoming engaged in the debate. More people moving to Yes.

    Thanks for dropping by Archie (saw your post on the other thread) and I’ll let you know as soon as we have hardcopy WBB.

    Good news in the polls, I think we are exactly where we want to be at this point in time. Like others have said it is to our advantage to be *showing* to be trailing. With the polls missing approx. 20% of the population I don’t think they are correct. That combined with the ‘f’ it factor in the polling booth and all those folk who hate alicsammon who are going to find he is not on the ballot paper when they get into the booth. And when confronted with the Scotland Yes or No question what are they going to do? Yup, I think so too.

    @Ronnie (A)
    Sorry you didn’t get in to the Darling gig Ronnie, I guess your reputation must have preceded you 😉 Or maybe ‘they’ all read Wings too 😀

    Just been reading through the Referendum Agent stuff and it’s going to be time for all your Wingers to ante-up. We are going to need a lot of volunteers to cover all the Postal vote counts (over 10 days 8th to 18th Sep in Inverurie (9:30 on)), the Polling Stations on the day and at the count. I think we’ll have to try and co-ordinate with the other pro-indy groups to try and cover as much as possible. There’s a lot to do.

    I can taste it people, but it won’t happen if we don’t get off our rears and get into action. Anything. Anything at all that you can do you must do. The wire is approaching rapidly.

  131. Flower of Scotland says:

    Hi Lesley-Anne, signed up for Pinpolls thanks to you!

    You think Dalgetty Bay is bad, come to NO Strathmiglo! Where I’ve only seen 2 houses with yes including mine! But more for NO thanks!! Depressing but working on it!

  132. glenfalloch says:

    I am very worried about the last few weeks of this referendum campaign, and I feel that we must be ready for some really awful stuff that will no doubt be thrown at the Yes campaign – either personal leadership smear stuff, corruption allegations, terrorist threats, etc. – any of these can be conjured up by those who don’t want to see a Yes vote succeed. The No press has already been pretty appalling, while the (minimal) mainstream Yes press and the fantastic online Yes sites have been really upbeat, but these next few weeks are ones where all the prowess of the UK ‘intelligence’ services will be working flat-out to keep the Union together. I live near Faslane, where people are alternating between thinking the referendum is a ha-ha useless pandering to Scottish ‘aspirations’ and those that think the referendum is a threat to their livelihood – both of which stances are infuriating. I remember how, in the 1980s, New Zealand tried to enact their democratically elected Parliament’s ruling that no nuclear armed or powered ship would be allowed to visit their ports – and the CIA helped to overthrow NZ’s Labour government. Faslane/Coulport is probably THE most important NATO naval base in the North Atlantic – the Cold War may be over, but this complex is still the major representative of the supposed ‘special relationship’ between the UK and the US. So, as the referendum polls show the Yes and No votes drawing nearer, I am worried that in the next few weeks, we may see acts of ‘persuasion’ that we really need to prepare to counter in our alternative media outlets, because sure as hell the mainstream sources will be trumpeting the UK version.

  133. handclapping says:

    @Ian Brotherhood
    Kininvie is hoping to get 1000 of Stu’s Sunday 24th to us in Kirkcaldy on

  134. Mary Bruce says:

    New YouGov poll:

    Yes 35 % (+3) No 51% (-4) DK 11% (+1)
    Exc DK’s Yes 43% (+3) No 57% (+3)

    Best YouGov for yes yet.

  135. handclapping says:

    That’s what happens when you go back to put in a missing apostrophe 🙁

  136. call me dave says:

    Thanks for Pinpolls link

    Registered and voted too, now got a wee pin in Fife.

    Read NNS oil thread earlier in the day.
    Apparently AS mentioning a new field tomorrow in North Sea.

    Henry better stop dithering but I do agree he’s doing a grand job for the YES.

  137. X_Sticks says:

    @West Aberdeen are getting 5000 (from kendo I think) and expected 23rd. We’ll be ordering more, expected delivery approx 30th.

    @Albaha – another bawbee added.

    Now, I’m off to spend some time with Zebedee..but I’ll maybe just have one last look at twittttttttttttttt…….zzzzzzzz

    Night all.

  138. Mary Bruce says:

    I think that last Exc DK for no must be No 57% (-3%) not +3%. (I cut and pasted from twitter).

    The average poll of polls must have moved up a couple of % after this weekend.


  139. handclapping says:

    @Flower of Scotland
    I’m working on getting you another one 🙂

  140. ronnie anderson says:

    @Ian Brotherhood, Kninvie is on the case this week get in touch with him.

  141. Marcia says:


    I take it should be -3 for No when excluding DK.

  142. X_Sticks says:

    That should have been @Ian doh!

  143. Lesley-Anne says:

    I’ve e-mailed Stu last Wednesday night Ian to request some WBB’s but I’ve heard nothing from him yet. To be fair my e-mail may not have been that clear, I asked for 1,000 but did rather cheekily ask for 10,000. In any event I’d happily accept whatever amount can be sent to us and we’ll work round that figure for the Annan/Gretna area 😛

    I’m hoping to hear something before Wednesday cause we have a YES meeting that night and I’d like to give them a heads up about what is happening.

    I also e-mailed him about observers at Dumfries but I’ve heard nothing back about that either.

    Like you Ian I realise that Stu is up to his neck with stuff so I’m trying not to e-mail him.

  144. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @handclapping/x-sticks –

    Cheers both.

    So, we’re looking at end of next week then? Fair enough, just wanted a rough idea.

    Ta much.

  145. Edward says:

    Regarding Alex Salmond announcing a new oil filed tomorrow

    Keep an eye on the mainstream media as to whether they cover the announcement or ignore it and/or have a counter story

  146. Lesley-Anne says:

    Just seen this on Twitter so anyone up for a wee laugh might like to support this.

    We are a group of established comedians voting Yes. An event is planned on 21/08 @jongleursglasgo 7pm which will raise funds for #foodbanks.

    P.S. John Gordon Sinclair of Gregory’s Girl fame has just come out for YES! 😉

  147. Kalmar says:

    Flower of Scotland, I’m in that neck of the woods. Libdem heartland innit. Are you getting any wbbs?

  148. kininvie says:


    email me Kininvie (at) gmail (dot) com and I’ll bring you up to date with where we are with the WBB

  149. X_Sticks says:


    I believe you have been sorted out re the WBB print run, kendo, is that correct? If not I’ll chip in a bit.

  150. kininvie says:


    See above reply to L-A 11.53

  151. ronnie anderson says:

    otta here good nite all

  152. thedogphilosopher says:

    @ croompenstein

    After independence I’d like to see all our national sports teams revert to the saltire blue of the flag, not that Union Jack blue effort.

  153. barracouda says:

    Hi guy, i did not read all posts, so if i am repeating something I apologize, not going to get the same from bbc, msm, darling, murphy lamont and the rest, who keep the same old, same old, when are they going to grow a pair, even yes lamont, they may even find a future in this country if they grow a pair and tell the truth, i look forward to the liars telling the truth, should i hold my breath, i would like to think i could, but i am not going to try find out, come on you guys grow a pair you will have a future when you do.

  154. call me dave says:


    Don’t worry too much. I buy three different newspapers (not all for me) every morning and the two woman on the counter smile as I hand over the money.

    “How big are the headlines today”? they ask. I told them a long time ago the more strident and bigger the headlines the nearer the referendum, and the closer the result will be.

    One was a DK now a YES and the other was NO but now also a YES.

    Dirty tricks from the UK government? Cant see it happening. When people in the audience openly laugh at better together reps on the radio / tv and in public meetings in halls it shows they have few cards to play.

    The current SG have been seen to be making a decent job over the last few years and the folk are not daft. It’s all about trust and I know who I trust.

  155. Lesley-Anne says:

    Thanks for that Kininvie, just e-mailed you. 😉

  156. Robert Peffers says:

    You really couldn’t make it up, Could you?

    We have, arguably, as leaders of the Better Together boorach, the two most guilty and dishonest politicos that were in charge of the financial breakdown of the United Kingdom. Both having served as chancellor and both so lax that not only did they make a World-Wide crisis much worse for the UK but neither financial genius saw the crash coming. Yet neither has the honesty to hang their heads and say mia culpa and go sit quietly on the back benches.

  157. Lesley-Anne says:

    Well to be fair Robert one has. In fact he is sitting SO quietly on the back benches he is NEVER there! 😛

  158. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Kininvie –

    No worries. I’ve established contact with Jim T. As and when I need more WBBs (if I get the 1000 I requested) I’ll be able to get him directly, and he’s just down the road from me.

    More power to ye mister!

  159. Training Day says:

    Woo! You Gov have us at 35 percent. Whoop de doo.

    Astonishing that some folk still buy into this ptomaine.

  160. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Robert Peffers –

    Hear hear to that.

    Can anyone (even diehard Naysayers) imagine that Alistair Darling is going to have any role to play in Scottish politics two months hence?

    It’s unimaginable. If we win, he has to disappear. If we lose, he does what? Hang about to prove how patriotic he is?

  161. call me dave says:

    In the Labour party the Scottish assorted box of 40 watt politician bulbs has a few 150 watt specials, according to Radio 4 tonight (I paraphrase) Dougy Alexander and Jim Murphy are the brighter ones!! Who knew?

    Back to the ladies golf play off 1st extra hole.

  162. Faltdubh says:

    Hugely off topic, sorry!,_2014#2014

    Can any computer savy person put the polls up on the wiki page? 😉 The Panelbase one was there this afternoon. Maybe some NoNat has deleted it.

  163. Mary Bruce says:

    Hello Kininvie, I just sent you an email re the WBB. 🙂

  164. Lesley-Anne says:

    Just read this over on Twitter.

    SLab just phoned me. Asked how I was voting. Told them. Then they asked if I’d vote labour in iScot. Preparing a plan B?

    I have one question. Why would Labour in Scotland even ask the second question, about voting for Labour in an independent Scotland unless they have already conceded defeat in the independence debate? 😛

  165. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Some of the stuff on WOS Twitter tonight is just mental.

    Does anyone know anyone who knows anyone who has even heard of anyone meeting Duncan Hothersall in real-life?

    Is he an actual person?

  166. Flower of Scotland says:

    Hi Kalmar, yeah Condems! Loads! Lots of English Friends for NO!

    wbbs? Eh?

    Soon every window with yes in my house and my YES Saltire flying at my gate. My local SNP councillor did ask if I would put a very large YES in my driveway! I’d love to! Waiting on its delivery! Got You Yes Yet as well so can’t do anymore!

  167. Flower of Scotland says:

    Ok Kalmar it’s late! Wbbs got it. Downloaded my own copy!

  168. call me dave says:


    That’s interesting and of course after a YES or even a NO labour in Scotland is toast.

    Wonder who is phoning ‘Scottish Labour’ or the real one in London. Can’t see London calling what good will the information be to them.

    I saw a story about a coup on AS but I can guess labour are experts in that sort of stuff in their own ranks.

    Pesky Asians to good for the Yankees at the ladies Golf all over. 🙂

  169. Training Day says:

    Buying into rigged polling – as the SNP does – means accepting a rigged referendum.

    Geezabrek Kevin Pringle.

  170. Edward says:

    Ian Brotherhood
    I’ve been reading some of the stuff that Duncan Hotterthanseal comes out with.
    I understand he is real. Apparently he hates George Galloway, despite being on the same side, but loves racist twat Smart.

    Duncan Weaherseal certainly has something for our Stu, despite not liking Stu, keeps following him

    Perhaps Duncay has issues 😉

  171. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Edward –


    If real, he’s a complicated character for sure.

    An independent Scotland will need all sorts of people, but I’m not sure where he might fit in.

  172. PeeGee says:

    Drunken Hovercraft has so many issues he got banned from CC’s. He really shouldn’t have taken Ian Smart in with him. Just asking for trouble.

  173. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    call me dave at 12.41

    The coup against Alex Salmond is the invention of today’s Sunday Express which has in its daily editions been promoting this babbling nonsense for about a week.
    The Express of course is about as politically astute as the Bunty and I don’t know how any sensible person can actually buy it. There is a certain panache in the bizarre nonsense in the Daily Mail and the Express is entirely bereft of even that.

    Sunday Express is quoting an “Ex SNP MSP” in today’s concoction which accuses Nicola of plotting to bring Alex Salmond down. I detect the hand of D G Doolally in all of this.

  174. Faltdubh says:

    Fellow Cybernats, and apologies, for the long winded post, and I have to add O/T, or is OT, but it’s most definitely OFF TOPIC.

    Ken what is amazing about this!

    Apparently last week, or was it two now? But, yon Alikkk(extra K for luck) Sammin got scubbed by Darling according to the MSM.

    Mind, ITV had 5 undecided voters in their wee studio and the damming final image was that all 5 (after watching that debate) had all switched to No.

    Plan B! Plan B! Is all we heard. They were a dog with a bone and overplayed it.

    Since then

    We’ve had no new debates, we’ve had the same scare stories, regurgitated nonsense from the Guardian, Telegraph, Daily Mail, etc. You know that we are making in roads when even the Daily Record are coming out with the odd article in favour of Yes (they did one last week, a polar opposite of ITV’s 5 DK’s going to No, although it was only 4 voters, and it was 3 yes, 1 maybe yes).

    I’m havering sh!te and it’s late too, but..

    We are doing grand, folks.

    We all know movement from No/Undecided/soft yes to YES.

    My own success was announced tonight. One of the best people in the world, a great pal of mine – funny, honest, charitable, kind, humorous all to describe him. A great soul.

    No time for politics and in his own words, “They’re aw/ah(never ken the spelling) the same. I’m abstaining. We’ll get shafted either from Ed or London”.

    Tonight, he’s come out for Yes! He’s just one person, but we’ve all read about the huge and amazing aspects of one person.

    If anything, it’s not a huge deal as he was never going to vote against his country (his words too), but still was so fed up of politics in all guises, yet, he’s seen/heard/listened to what we have to say and he’s not just abstaining, he’s giving us his vote.

    We’re almost home.

    One Month to go! 4 weeks, so and so days depending on your calendar, but certainly less than 32 days to win this.

    Let’s keep going. Let’s donate to every single cause we feel worthwhile of our funds (within reason) we must feed ourselves and family/friend, let’s keep talking, let’s show of our Yes(ness) through whatever we can afford – beit a massive Yes flag drapped over your hoose to a simple wee £1 Yes badge on your shirt for that every day you take that bus, walk, cycle, run, ride into our towns and cities.

    Let’s do this for (in the words of Tom Devine) “Old Scotia”

  175. hackedoffscot says:

    am i the only one who thinks its time salmond dropped his TV savvy, PC, sanitised, playing by westminsters rules attitude and just called these muppets on their lies and presented the facts and figures to back it up

  176. Ken500 says:

    Alistair Darling in one of the most unpopular politicians in Britain. A bonus for the YES campaign.

    Another DK came out for YES. Surprisingly? They listened to ‘Flower O’ Scotland’ again and decided to vote YES. Everyone else is converted to YES already.

  177. Ken500 says:

    Duncan has issues because he joined the wrong side. No good for the ego.

  178. john king says:

    Ian says
    “Does anyone know anyone who knows anyone who has even heard of anyone meeting Duncan Hothersall in real-life?

    Is he an actual person?”

    Duncan Hooversall is real and he would fit right in the Revs closet where he’s been for the past 6 months,he says shhh dont tell the rev.

    Apparently he’s no very good on a shagpile but he can suck the air right out of a room in no time.

    Ah’ll get ma coat. 🙁

  179. john king says:

    Lesley-Anne says
    “I have one question. Why would Labour in Scotland even ask the second question, about voting for Labour in an independent Scotland unless they have already conceded defeat in the independence debate? :P”

    Anyone who gets that call should say yes of course I would vote for them in an independent Scotland.

  180. Ken500 says:

    ‘a puddle with Autism’ is for many autistic people, truly offensive. Cut it.

  181. john king says:

    anyone else having bother getting Newsnet Scotland?

  182. macart763m says:

    @John King

    Yeah, same here John. Server error by the looks of it.

  183. Wee Jimmy says:

    Looks like someone needs to bounce the database.

  184. Clootie says:

    same – been trying for about 30mins to access

  185. john king says:

    I noticed the ukok mob are mobilising thier grassroots members I saw a certain wee lassie chapping doors on a video
    Claire Im sure her name is, odinary mum Claire Lally, who’s just ordinary.

  186. caz-m says:

    John King
    “I noticed the ukok mob are mobilising their grassroots members I saw a certain wee lassie chapping doors on a video.”

    Was that the BBC video John. The blonde haired women?

  187. Robert Peffers says:

    @willie fae kilwinning says:17 August, 2014 at 6:17 pm:

    “re Darling saying that Barnett is in play re HS2, Crossrail, London sewers, etc, and that Scotland gets it’s share re money spent.”

    Hi, Willie, The New London Sewerage system is funded from, “Government Reserves” but the normal funding for English/London infrastructure should come from DEFRA fudning. DEFRA Funding carries Barnett Consequentials hile Government Reserves do not. There is a long, long list of such London/English infrastructure and other fundings that get funded by the Treasury from non-Barnett consequential sources.

    They refurbished every Londan rail & bus Terminal from such sources – So Scottish taxpayer money contributed but Scotland got nothing from the refurbishments. The Treasury contributed a one-of grant towards setting up, “Transport for London”, so we helped pay for that to. Then there was the Dome, Olympics, Chunnel road & Rail infrastructure, (by contrast there was no funding for the original Forth Road Bridge roads and other infrastructure). The London Cross-Rail system is also funded from non Barnett sources. Then we have all those, “National”, assets like Art Galleries, Museums, Theatres, Ballet, and so on. Where, “National”, is the usual confusion between what really is, “The Nation”.

    I’ve never checked it out but here’s a wee idea for a bit of research – Is the Shakespere birthplace and associated places like The Globe Theatre classed as A National Treasure and if so is the places associated with the Scottish, Welsh and Irish National Bards?

  188. thomas says:

    @ John King

    Aye john , just saw her on the news there , did you mean ordinary or odious mum john? ha ha ha

    pretty wee thing isnt she? just a shame she lies every time her lips move

  189. thomas says:

    Just tried to get on newsnet as well , nae joy?

  190. Marco McGinty says:

    @john king
    Just an ordinary mum that regularly seeks the limelight! But that’s her prerogative.

    Anyway, the piece was strange to say the least, and accusations of impartiality could be aimed at the BBC. It was stated that “Labour is running a very traditional campaign, doorstep to doorstep, methodical, rather than flashy.”, and did suggest the Yes campaign was anything but.

    I could be entirely wrong on this, but isn’t the Yes campaign doing the whole doorstep thing? Isn’t the Yes campaign methodical in any way? Is BT, or whatever name they’re going by this week, not doing any flashy?

    However, I was close to ripping my hair out when an old dear was asked on which way she was voting. Her answer “I’m not voting Yes because we would never make it on our own. Everything that was in Scotland has been taken away.”

    If that wasn’t a good enough reason to free ourselves from Westminster and their robbing, thieving ways, then I don’t know what is. I’m hopeful she will see herself on the TV, understand the enormity of what she said, and realise that only a Yes vote can bring about positive change and a fair government.

    Come on missus! Think about it! Vote Yes!

  191. Brian Mchugh says:

    Marco; “An old dear was asked on which way she was voting. Her answer “I’m not voting Yes because we would never make it on our own. Everything that was in Scotland has been taken away.”

    Saw that too. Look on the bright side though… just about everyone Yes/No/DK let out a simultaneous; “WHIT?” across Scotland.

  192. john king says:

    “Was that the BBC video John. The blonde haired women?”

    None other.

  193. No no no...yes says:

    Didn’t see the BBC interview, but let’s all do Lally a favour and ignore her, it’s just a trap designed to bait comments.

  194. Robert Peffers says:

    Appleby says: 17 August, 2014 at 7:40 pm:

    “Why do they keep going on about the cost of a pint here or there? Do they really think everyone spends a substantial part or ALL of their wages on drink?”

    Remember too, Appleby, some people, (myself included), never spend anything on alcohol, tobacco or even such as gigs, cinema, theatre or even bingo or lottery. Believe me it is not on moral grounds either.

  195. john king says:

    “I’m not voting Yes because we would never make it on our own. Everything that was in Scotland has been taken away.”

    I think you’ll find what she said was “everything WOULD be taken away”

  196. Kalmar says:

    @flower of Scotland very good! The only Yes in the village ;). I haven’t put up any massive signs because I rent and don’t want to p*ss off my landlord!
    I was hoping someone local would have a stock of the books as I could use a handful to give out. Might just print a few up.

  197. Grouse Beater says:

    As expected, Andrew Marr suggested Boswell and Johnson achieved great things as a team, and might never had they never met.

    That logic is, of course, nonsensical.

    One might as well say had a Scot met an Italian of repute, or a Frenchman, or a Brazilian, they would make history. Had they never met – zilch.

    It’s a completely spurious argument that omits the fact Boswell lived in a country not the equal of Johnson’s, and though Boswell was the superior writer it is Johnson praised and elevated.

    Let’s have a documentary from Marr on how one untalented Scot met an equally untalented Englishman and the result was they talked a lot of bollocks.

  198. FFS
    Is anyone watching the news today.?

    RAF Leuchars in Fife is being Closed in December, leaving only RAF Lossiemouth to protect those massive oil and gas fields.

    Ludicrously, Scots are paying tax to man and maintain 2 x British Army Bases – AND – RAF Akrotiri on the EU Nation state of Cyprus.
    RAF Akrotiri will not suffer closure and the Tornado Fighter Jets at RAF Lossiemouth are on the EU Nation state of Cyprus to Humanitarianly blast the shit out of Iraq – again.

    Scots pay tax to MUG OURSELVES.

    Freedom`s just another word for nothing left to lose.

  199. caz-m says:

    BBC Scotland’s Gary Robertson interviewing Alex Salmond on GMS, why ask a question Gary when you are not even going to listen to the answer.

    The First Minister is halfway through an answer when Robertson talks over the top of him to ask the next question, so he obviously isn’t listening to the answer to the first question.

    Robertson interviews Darling tomorrow. Listen to how he will let Darling rant, uninterrupted, to let him get his point across.

  200. John Brown says:

    I see on BBC Scotland news this morning that “ordinary mother” Clare Lally out canvassing for No Thanks

  201. Ken500 says:

    One old dear on the doorstep.

    100% YES. ‘YES a million times’.

  202. Marco McGinty says:

    @john king
    I think you’ll find what she said was “everything WOULD be taken away”

    Not so, John. It’s just been on again, and I made a point of pausing and rewinding the comment, and whilst admitting that I inaccurately put “everything that was in Scotland has been taken away”, it actually sounded more like “everything that was in Scotland’s been taken away”, as in “Scotland has”. I think it would be fair to suggest that the lady was implying that it had all gone. Further to my theory, if she thought it would go, she would have used “is” and not “was”.

    But back to the BBC claim that Labour aren’t doing anything flashy, then which category does a huge red bus with uniformed workers come under?

  203. Sinky says:

    On Denmark Mr Darling should be aware that
    small Denmark is the world’s leading pension provider.

    Their system comprising of a basic public retirement fund, a supplementary retirement fund tied to income, a fully funded pension contribution plan, and a range of mandatory private pension plans. Its number one ranking is due to the large amount of investment into the pension system, how well their private pension system is regulated, and the fact that it provides adequate benefits to a large proportion of residents in the country.

  204. Grouse Beater says:

    Pananama and the Darien Scheme, Scotland’s great adventure to establish a trading post pronounced a failure, its Scottish investors forced to use their own money to fund it the English government blocking all other sources.

    Next century and not so far away the Panama Canal opens.

    Today, a vast oil field is discovered – ‘at least 900 million barrels’ – in a place called … wait for it…


  205. Nana Smith says:

    Someone hasn’t heard the latest news, or has and been told to report the gloom rubbish instead.

  206. Indy_scot says:

    Agreed, looks like thet are looking for more mileage out of Lally, best not rise to it.

  207. caz-m says:

    Better Together really are running an ordinary grassroots campaign, aren’t they.

    Like the TWO “ordinary grassroots campaigners” they had out on Saturday at a local fire engine show in the Paisley area.

    And the two ordinary grassroots campaigners for Better Together were non other than the Shadow Foreign Secretary to the UK Government, Douglas Alexander and he was accompanied by his Labour Party side kick, Labour MSP Hugh Henry.

    They just don’t have anyone willing to come out and support them. They are relying on MPs, MSPs, Councillors and people wanting to be Councillors.

    Better Together don’t have a grassroots campaign.

    The local grassroots YES group were out in force, as usual.

  208. Black Douglas says:


    Either that or she is the only “local” canvasser they have! 😀

  209. Malcolm Henry says:

    The quote from AD says “if you look at countries like Denmark you pay a lot more in tax”

    He’s clearly talking about all tax, not just income tax.

    If you go to the OECD’s table on tax per capita ( you’ll find that in 2012 the Danes paid almost twice the amount of tax per head ($27,140) compared to the UK ($13,850).

    The only lie being told here is by Wings. Please publish a correction before the No camp latches on to your error.

    Misinformation like this does the Yes side no good at all.

  210. galamcennalath says:

    Yougov poll, mentioned several times above.

    Should Scotland be an independent country?

    With Don’t Knows removed
    Yes 43% (+4)
    No 57% (-4)

    And, remember, YouGov have deployed some questionable adjustments which boost NO.

    A pattern is emerging from all recent polls 🙂

  211. Arajag says:

    The UK average wage is not £32,256 or £2688 per month gross as stated in Wiki. Is it £26,500

    £2,208 per month gross, £1,747 net
    2,182 Euros at todays exchange rate.

  212. ronnie anderson says:

    Anither week wie mair o the same
    But we’re up wie the lark n
    well up tae the mark
    sure Us Wingers ur jist Pure Game.

  213. Arajag says:

    Actually this comparison has already been made by the OECD.

    Household adjusted net disposable income is $25,173 In the UK it is $25,828.

    In essence, Darling was factually correct, Danes are worse off.
    Especially when you add the 16%.

  214. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dave says: 17 August, 2014 at 7:56 pm:

    “Remember the union was caused due to an economic case.”

    Aye! Dave and that, “economic case”, was historically engineered by our, “Friends”, in the then independent Kingdom of England at Westminster. The history of which has been suppressed ever since. First of all The English Kingdom had annexed Wales in 1284, (Statute of Rhuddlan), & Ireland in 1542, (Crown of Ireland Act), but had not ever annexed the Kingdom of Scotland. Thus, in 1603, when the King of Scotland inherited the Kingdom of England crown the laws of that time, (Divine Right of Kings), should have annexed the three country Kingdom of England to his existing Kingdom of Scotland. The reason it didn’t was because the law of Scotland, (to this day), has the people of Scotland as sovereign, not the monarchy. Thus he was designated as James I & VI. NOT JAMES I OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.

    Then, in 1688, the Kingdom of England Parliament deposed James II and imported William Of Orange and Mary as their monarchy. However as the two kingdoms & parliament had only shared the same person as their monarch but had no actual union of either kingdoms or parliaments the Englash, “Glorious Revolution”, could not depose James II as monarch of Scotland. To this day history lies by calling the resultant, “Jacobite Uprising”, “The Jacobite Rebellion”, but you cannot rebel against a monarch or parliament that is not your own. Note that the uprisings ran from 1688 until after the Treaty of Union in 1745.

    Meanwhile, the English parliament had implemented the English Transportation Laws and this involved the English kingdom in several European wars and eventually led to the American Declaration of Independence. England thus had massive national debts and were desperate to stave off the threats of the Jacobites, (and the French), so needed a Treaty of Union. Now they also applied the English Transportation Acts against Scotland. This law meant the English Mercantile Marine had a monopoly on trade with the colonies and such trade could only be done via English crewed ships. So English merchants told Scotland the price they would get for Scottish exports and for imports from the English colonies. Unfortunately things were made worse by several years of bad Scottish harvests.

    Now to the other underhanded stuff. Daniel Defoe, (the author), operated as an English undercover agent in Scotland, (there are records of his letters home to Westminster), and Defoe’s close friend was William Patterson who founded the Bank of England, (a private company), by starting a subscription scheme to bail out the English Parliament over that English National debt and was later to start up the disastrous, “Darien Expedition”, to bankrupt, (not Scotland), the leading landowners who were also the parliamentarians at that time. So the English Kingdom’s campaign to force a Treaty of Union was then emphasised by an English Naval force standing off our shores and English troops ranged at the borders.

    So the truth is that the United Kingdom is a bipartite agreement and Ireland & Wales both joined the union as part of the English kingdom in 1706/7 and no other kingdom has ever joined that UK since then. That means, legally, when Scotland disunited the UK PARLIAMENT by taking back her independence but retaining the monarchy.

    The United KINGDOM refers to the monarchy, (Article I of the treaty).
    The United Kingdom Parliament is the subject of Article III of the treaty.

  215. Elspeth says:

    @ arajag

    Surely the clue is in the word ‘average’? In Denmark there is not the huge gap between rich and poor that there is in this country.

  216. Ken500 says:

    The average wage in Scotland is lower than the UK average.

    Darling is lying

  217. Arajag says:


    The clue for what? Claims were not being made about social inequality, wich of course Denmark has a far better record in.

    Darling said Danes, in the round, have less to spend. And he is factually correct on that point.

  218. handclapping says:

    Of course we don’t pay taxes, we just bum the rest off foreigners in exchange for IOUs. The Danes pay their way in the world

  219. Robert Peffers says:

    @G H Graham says: 17 August, 2014 at 8:12 pm;

    “Despite all the austerity, British Gov is going to spend around £108 billion MORE in 2013/2014 than it receives in taxes.”

    Great post, G H Graham, but will please you stop doing, “The United Kingdom Parliament’s”, propaganda for them by calling them, “The British Governmenmt”?

    We Scots will continue to be every bit as British as everyone else from the archipelago when we part company with the Parliament of, “The United Kingdom”.

  220. Arajag says:


    Danish public debt is 45% of GDP.

  221. Ken500 says:

    North/South divide. Denmark 5million people? are not taxed more heavily to support a neighbouring country, which gives the neighbouring country higher disposable income.Even without considering the UK massive debt,compared to Denmark, which Scotland is landed with, without spending the money. No taxation without representation. Scotland outvoted in Westminster 10/1. A undemocratic, unequal, unfair, illegal UK.

  222. Ken500 says:

    Troll alert

    Where’s Stu

  223. Black Douglas says:

    Nice to see the 👿 out in force this morning 🙂

  224. I just listened to Scotlands talk-in via the link posted. I cannot believe the lies Alistair Darling was spouting. The interviewer did pull him up but there was a lot more he could have got Darling on.
    I just hope the Alex Salmond and his prep team were listening to Darling’s lies and hope that he really grills Darling at the next debate.

  225. No no no...yes says:

    A wee reminder of what Ruth thinks:

  226. handclapping says:

    And the UK’s? As reported now and then come back and tell me again after 30 September when they have to report without all the fiddles that made the takeover of the Royal Mail pension fund “reduce” the National Debt. Thanks

  227. Famous15 says:

    @Malcolm Henry.I rechecked what Darling said and he continued in the sentence on tax “and the amount of money they (Danes) have to spend is less. ” I suggest Wings can live with what they said!

  228. Malcolm Henry says:

    @ handclapping

    And Danish household debt compared to disposable income is over 320%, the highest in the OECD.

  229. There was a good point made during the talk-in. It’s something that we should be saying to all the Labour MSPs, MPs, and activists for NO.
    That point is ”you would rather see a Tory Government in Westminster than see an Independent Scotland”.
    The interviewer asked Darling this and Darling faffed about trying to spin his way out of it. It’s one question I will be asking them during conversations.

  230. No no no...yes says:


    a reminder of what Jackson Carlaw deputy Tory leader in Scotland said about a currency union:

  231. Arajag says:


    I made no assertion about the UK. You suggested Denmark was debt free. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    The above article made assertions that are incorrect. The information is already out there. There were no claims made about inequality or otherwise. The claim made was that the average Dane has less to spend than the average UK citizen. And in this regard Darling was correct.
    I make no defence of anything else he comes out with, simply that if you are going to attack someone with regards to their accuracy, make sure that your own attack is accurate. Which in this case, it is not.

  232. Malcolm Henry says:

    @ Famous15

    Still not true.

    OECD table showing “Gross household adjusted disposable income per capita” for 1996 to 2012 shows Denmark is less than the UK in every year.

    The difference ranges between a few hundred dollars and over $5,000.

  233. galamcennalath says:

    All the detail discussion about exactly how much money Danes earn, owe, spend. For heavens sake, they are among the happiest people in the world. They don’t have the levels of poverty Scotland has. They live in a democracy. Who isn’t envious?

  234. bunter says:

    @ caz-m

    I was out leafleting in Johnstone Saturday, at the fire engine display in the town centre and I got some right dirty looks fae wee Doogie when he saw me. Looked like they were having a wee photo op for the local paper with H Henry and assorted SLab cooncillors. There was one woman with No Thanx flags, but no takers as far as I could see. She was probably one of their wives.

    Have never seen so much of wee Doogie in my wee toon as the last month or so. Seems we are now important as panic sets in.

  235. Ken500 says:

    OECD figures are wrong, they are fiddling the figures

  236. Ken500 says:

    OECD are not collecting separate figures for Scotland and the rest of the UK. UK Gov says they can’t – a lie. Combining gives a distorted outcome. Darling, Westminster are lying.

  237. Ken500 says:

    Secrecy and lies, Westminster speciality. Greedy, thieving undemocratic liars.

  238. Ken500 says:

    Westminster and their associates are greedy, thieving, murdering liars, who are above the Law, Most of them should be in jail.

  239. Robert Peffers says:

    @Lesley-Anne says: 18 August, 2014 at 12:11 am:

    “Well to be fair Robert one has. In fact he is sitting SO quietly on the back benches he is NEVER there!”

    Aye! Lesley-Anne, and for my pains Gordon is my MP. The point was he is busy sticking his nose into the Referendum issue and NOT on the back benches where he could at least do some good. For example for the Dalgety Bay’s Nuclear contamination problem. Way back I was working at GEC Marconi’s Trainers & Simulators unit at the Donibristol industrial unit. With my MOD history in the RADIAC Lab, (Radiological detection instruments & radiological protection), I had great knowledge of the Dalgety Bay situation and I was even in MOD employ when the Air Station was still going and burning the scrap instruments.

    I told local workmates at GEC about the radiation hazard and they got in contact with Brown. Gordon has no defence that he had no knowledge until the more recent campaigns by residents. He most certainly did know all about it. I’m talking about him knowing in the late 1960s early 1970s.

  240. Robert Peffers says:

    @Edward says: 18 August, 2014 at 12:58 am:

    “I’ve been reading some of the stuff that Duncan Hotterthanseal comes out with.”</i?

    Edward, Duncan Hothersall, was a stalwart on Labourhame as was Smart. The general opinion about such people, before Labourhame went AWOL, was that the whole bloody boorach o them had issues.

    Best not engage with these folks, though I understand the malady is not smitting and can only be caught by intimate personal political contact. In effect you must actually vote London Labour in Scotland to be infected. Professor Pennington advises thorough hand washing if you have handled any no literature, though.

  241. Robert Peffers says:

    @caz-m says: 18 August, 2014 at 8:31 am:

    “Robertson interviews Darling tomorrow. Listen to how he will let Darling rant, uninterrupted, to let him get his point across.”

    What is it about you bloody masochists that makes you torture yourselves listening to that balderdash from Robertson and the BBC?


  242. Cotswoldjock says:

    As usual its BT sayingthings that could be argued as the truth, from a certain point of view. As long as you don’t scratch the surface. Which is what they think most people will not do. They are preying on the ill-informed to win this refurendum.

  243. Robert Peffers says:

    @Grouse Beater says: 18 August, 2014 at 8:43 am:

    “Pananama and the Darien Scheme, Scotland’s great adventure to establish a trading post pronounced a failure, its Scottish investors forced to use their own money to fund it the English government blocking all other sources”.

    Great point, Grouse Beater but the bit about Westminster blocking investment is not quite correct, though they did effectively do so. The truth was that they collaborated with the Dutch and initially promised an English/Dutch 50% funding for the Scheme, (Remember this was after, 1688 and the introduction of King Billy as king of England and the subsequent Jacobite uprisings).

    Their next move was to withdraw the English/Dutch promise of funds which left the Scots Expedition 50% underfunded and doomed. Not only that but the English monarchy forbade the Royal Navy to assist the expeditioners and also forbade the Queens Soldiers, (already on the peninsula), to aid the Scots. To the extent they would not even provide the expeditioners with a barrel of clean drinking water. The whole thing was, without doubt, an English undercover operation. Remember that the English spy, Daniel Defoe, was a proven undercover agent and his close friend William Patterson, who instigated the Darien Scheme, had already started the subscription scheme that gave birth to the Bank of England. This is the history they don’t want you to know about.

  244. Let’s look at these so called polls in detail if you ask a 100 people their voting intensions the result will be exactly that the intensions of a 100 people that does not equate to the intensions of the whole of Scotland ,but that is what the no side are trying to imply it also depends who you ask if I went to to Ibrox when rangers were playing at home and asked the fans going in would you like to see a united Ireland I would get a 100 per cent no vote so you see how these so called polls can be manipulated to suit there own ends as I say they are comfort polls to try to keep up the moral of the no side and to try and demoralise the yes side do not believe their polls they are only make believe Vote yes

  245. Fairness for All says:

    Is there more in this recording that’s wrong ….. ???

    At 23 mins 30 secs into this recording, a lady asks Alistair Darling:

    “Why are we contributing [our Scottish taxes] to HS2” … and the like

    Darling goes on to say that it’s not quite like that

    “It would surprise you to know …. that for every £1 spent in London, Scotland gets a share of that via the Barnett formula…. So Scotland benefits” [from London spending]

    This is not correct either, is it? Barnett only applies to declared public spending, HS2 etc are classed as “National Infrastructure” which we *do* pay our Scottish taxes towards. So here in this program, Darling is at best avoiding the question, almost certainly mis-leading. Agree?

  246. Rock says:


    “One question about Henry McLeish. How much longer will we have to wait until he finally crosses that infamous line in the sand and comes fully out for YES.”

    Until the opportunist comes to the conclusion that it is definitely going to be Yes and he won’t lose too much credibility by moving to Yes.

    “We all know that deep down inside he wants to but he has been hedging his bets up till now.”

    Deep down inside he is a UNIONIST. Not any less of a doubled faced Labour opportunist as anyone else.

    Did we not “all” believe that Malcolm Chisholm was a decent guy who could come out for Yes?

    Did you see how he was lying about NHS privatisation last week?

  247. Rock says:

    Big Jock says,

    “Lesley regards McLeish.Brinkmanship!Labour man spotting a future career but needs to keep potential Labour buddies sweet in case of a no vote.I trust labour people as much as I would a cat with a budgie!”

    Totally agree.

  248. Rock says:

    call me dave,

    “Dirty tricks from the UK government? Cant see it happening.”

    Hope you have been to Specsavers recently.

  249. Grouse Beater says:

    Malcom Henry: And Danish household debt compared to disposable income is over 320%, the highest in the OECD

    I don’t have the figures to hand – which makes debating on the Internet with ‘instant’ statistics a waste of time.

    Generalities of the kind you post really don’t matter. They have no bearing on what we are trying to measure – human happiness and opportunity to develop to the full.

    Whatever country is held up as able to sustain a decent, prosperous way of life for the majority of its people it is instantly belittled and denigrated by unionists as not up to UK standards, as if somehow the UK is the world’s ideal society – no poverty, no unemployment, everybody enjoying free education, littered streets, poor housing unknown, and nobody wants to leave. A wonderful place.

    It isn’t.

    Not by a mile.

  250. Malcolm Henry says:

    @Grouse Beater

    You appear to be mistaking me for a unionist. I most certainly am not.

    I’m not disputing that Denmark could well be a much nicer place to live in than the UK.

    What I am disputing is the claim that AD was lying in the interview. The OECD data makes it clear that he wasn’t.

    I’m also disputing the notion that lots of Yes supporters have of Denmark as a strong economy from which we could learn. The truth is that Denmark’s economy is even more reliant on private debt than the UK’s, and is therefore even more precariously close to a catastrophic crash.

    Unless we make the effort to find out how things actually work, here and abroad, we have no chance of making Scotland a more just and more prosperous place.

    Articles like this one do nothing to help. All they do is feed our prejudices, giving ever more licence to pretend that all we have to do is get rid of mendacious UK politicians and then all will be well. It won’t.

  251. Grouse Beater says:


    Unless we make the effort to find out how things actually work, here and abroad, we have no chance of making Scotland a more just and more prosperous place.

    To whom do you refer when you use the royal ‘we’?

    By what reasoning do you deduce no one bothers to check how other countries work? On what grounds do you assert all is lost when ‘we’ lump everything onto mendacious politicians? If they are mendacious then they are serial liars. Their word cannot be trusted. That said, do we really ‘lump’ all upon them?

    I mistake you for no one, other than being oddly anxious over irrelevant detail.

    Denmark flourishes as a small country. We are told, ad nauseam, all small countries are basket cases ready to vote Right-wing if held up as an example to admire or to analyse.

    Did I mention the sentence I quote is nonsensical and a non-sequitur?

  252. Jim says:

    @No no no…yes
    That is called keeping your options open.

  253. Jim says:

    The average wage is the minimum wage which is £6.31 so yes darling is lying as most are on the minimum wage.

  254. David McKenzie says:

    2 things.
    1 the table you show is from wiki so could be complete bull.
    2 the table you show completely contradicts your argument. It shows that Denmark have higher average wage. But it also shows that they have far higher tax too which was darlings point.

    I am not yes or no vote yet sitting on fence. But if you are going to publish arguments you maybe also want to get facts rights

  255. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “1 the table you show is from wiki so could be complete bull.”

    As I said yesterday, I have no time for Wiki snobs. Wiki LINKS TO ITS SOURCES, so if you think its table might be wonky you can GO AND CHECK THE DATA FOR YOURSELF.

    “2 the table you show completely contradicts your argument. It shows that Denmark have higher average wage. But it also shows that they have far higher tax too which was darlings point.”

    No it wasn’t. His point was that “Danes have less money to spend”, which is bollocks. Tax rates in themselves don’t matter a damn. I’d rather be paid a million pounds a year taxed at 96% than £20,000 a year taxed at 1%. Wouldn’t you?

  256. Malcolm Henry says:

    @David McKenzie

    I’ve already tried pointed out to Stuart that his interpretation of the wiki data doesn’t support his claim that AD was lying.

    And I’ve pointed him to OECD data that clearly shows Danes are taxed almost twice as much as UK citizens, and that Danes have less disposable income (i.e. “money to spend”).

    He told me he’s “a bit busy” so won’t be checking the data.

    I suggest we move on and leave Stuart and his readers to their delusions.

  257. Grouse Beater says:

    Malcom Henry:
    I suggest we move on and leave Stuart and his readers to their delusions


    And you don’t want anybody to assume you’re a unionist?

    Darling has invested his entire career and future in Westminster at the cost of Scotland’s future. There is nothing more repugnant than a politician who would lay down his country for his life.

    You ask we give him a break. You, the man who wants us to create small government neo-con style.

  258. Colin Rippey says:

    I’m not quite sure what your article is trying to prove. AD states:

    “I think it would be less successful and we’d be less prosperous if we left the UK, if you look at countries like Denmark you pay a lot more in tax, the amount of money that people have got to spend is less”

    Of course this is entirely up for debate, just what the phrase “you pay s lot more in tax” is supposed to mean? Is it VAT, is it income tax, is it Council Tax?

    You then go on to state:

    “You know we’re not going to let that one slide without a fact-check, don’t you?”

    You then present a table with figures for various countries but focus on Denmark and the UK.

    Your table states that a Danish citizen retains roughly 60% of their gross earnings. Your table states that a UK citizen retains roughly 76% of their earnings.

    So, using your figures what you should be saying is that that the NET pay of a Scottish citizen would be about £1613 per month rather than the £2063 *if* Scotland ended up taxing their citizens at the same rate as Denmark does.

    Quite a difference eh 😉

  259. Grouse Beater says:

    Colin Rippey: I’m not quite sure what your article is trying to prove.

    Could it have something to do with the satisfaction of governing your own country?

  260. Ian Sanderson says:

    …and here was me thinking it was the US Federal Reserve wot bailed out RBS& BoS. But now I keep hearing that it was Alastair, silly me…

    OT one of the best independence debates I’ve heard – link below – thank you Glasgow Speptics

  261. Mary Spowart says:

    It is always his face I see when I remember one of the biggest lies told before the Scottish Indyref in 2014 – that the NHS was safe in the hands of Westminster. Didn’t stand for his Edinburgh seat again but probably knew his ermine robes were on order.

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