Learning difficulties
Sometimes we feel as though dumbing down Scottish politics until the Times’ political reporter Kenny Farquharson can understand it is our full-time job. It’s something we have to do quite a lot, whether it’s reminding him what manifestos look like, or pointing out that protecting EVERY child in Scotland from harm is actually a good thing, or even basic stuff like explaining what the SNP’s position on Scottish independence is.
So we’re pretty used to this sort of thing by now.
Farquharson’s column in the paper today performs the not-inconsiderable feat of stretching out a 140-character tweet into an 1100-word article without actually adding any new content or insight to it.
Last night’s EU debate on ITV saw numerous tweeters make what they apparently felt was the highly original observation that “OMG STURGEON WANTS TO STAY IN THE EU BUT NOT THE UK EVEN THOUGH THEY’RE BOTH UNIONS LOLOLOLOLOL!!!”
Farquharson has taken that limp zinger and dressed it up in the conceit of imagining himself as an SNP voter, by way of what we suspect he feels is rapier-sharp satire.
You get the flavour. 167 words filled already.
So we start off still on “They’re both unions so they must be the same!”, an argument elegantly skewered as the self-evident drivel it is by our own Doug Daniel just a few days ago. That’s 372 words knocked out now, a third of the way through the contractually-required wordcount without actually saying anything.
For some reason at this point Farquharson gets rather surprisingly bewildered about the difference between a campaign’s goals and its tactics. But that’s okay, because it helps push the word count up to 499. Nearly halfway done!
Finally we reach the point at which poor Kenny loses the thread of the argument. Because it’s not Brexit that provides the notional grounds for a second indyref. As even the dogs in the street know, it’s a Brexit that Scotland has voted against.
Scotland has no possible legitimate grievance if it leaves the EU having voted to do so. In that event, democracy would clearly have prevailed and nationalists would have no defensible choice but to accept it. It’s not rocket science. UK politicians from the Prime Minister himself down have noted that only a Remain vote in Scotland being overridden by the rest of the UK voting Leave would constitute a crisis.
But it matters not, because our hero’s now managed to churn out 712 hard-fought words and is speeding towards his conclusion.
But he still needs some padding if he’s going to fill the space, so he embarks on a small diversion based around the curious premise that it’s in some way weird for the SNP to want to have a second referendum under timing and circumstances that would give them the best chance of winning it, rather than being rushed into one when polls were still against them.
855 words now. Nearly there.
But we’re staggering towards the finish line like an exhausted marathon runner. Nicola Sturgeon’s position on a Brexit-triggered second indyref has, as far as we’re aware, never once been anything other than what it is now – namely that it’d be a possibility but not the preferred ideal. But these leaden-footed zombie steps get us to 971 words. Come on!
A second independence referendum within three years is of course a radically different proposition from a first one in three HUNDRED years. But let’s pretend we don’t see that. We only have eyes for the tape now. 1045 words!
Maybe nobody will notice, thinks Farquharson, if I just flat-out cheat at this point and get on a skateboard of lies for the last few yards.
We’ll try to make this so simple even a Unionist hack can grasp it.
Nicola Sturgeon is in the first instance telling her supporters to vote Remain on its own merits, because she believes that Scotland is better off in the EU. And she believes that’s the case whether Scotland is in the UK or not.
Wait. Perhaps we need to visualise this, as if we were talking to a slightly slow-witted child. If you’re on a ship, you don’t want it to sink. Being in a lifeboat isn’t as good as being on a safely floating vessel that you’re steering yourself, but it’s better than being in the water, or trapped on a Titanic some other idiot is piloting towards an iceberg.
A thumping Remain vote is Scotland’s lifeboat. Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t want to have to use it (she wants to sail on to her ultimate destination), but she’d rather have it there than not. She’d rather have a second indyref sooner than she really wants it than drown in an icy sea. She’s telling her supporters to vote for having a lifeboat.
And if even that hasn’t dumbed it down enough for Kenny Of The Times, we give up.
Oor Kenny’s not exactly Murdoch’s brightest henchman but its probably how he got the job.
I’m convinced the likes of Kenny are making a concerted effort to make SNP voters vote Leave. It’s the only explanation that makes sense of this obsession with telling SNP voters “but you want Scotland to be independent, so why are voting for the EU? Why? WHYYYYYYYY?????”
Can we get independence from the Scottish media, please? That’d be the best thing.
But But But we need more facts, nobody’s telling us the facts
and when they do, they’re lying, so we need the truth about the facts and not the lies about the facts
I just don’t believe any of them so I’m just going to vote with my heart and go with whoever has the nicest smile, as long as it’s not a false smile
Don’t you just hate that
It’s of course so that peoples view of ‘nationalists’ are enforced. They’re stupid, sheep-like drones (unionists opinion of us). He knows it’s not the truth but it is for his readership to lap up. Speaking to a older friend of mine a few months back he parroted out the Queensferry crossing being Salmonds vanity project. I wonder where he could’ve got that from. The good thing about the majority of indy supporters is that they question what they read. Unfortunately, a lot on the other side take these sort of ramblings as gospel.
Kenny doesn’t do crystal clear explanatory journalism. He is unionist hack that is deliberately trying to muddy the water.
The only guarantee you get from the yoon churnalists is that the SNP is Baad and any opportunity to deceive is jumped on.
trapped on, what can one be trapped on? ah yes on a Titanic suits the watery theme so – trapped on on a Titanic.
Its the stream of conciousness method of writing?
It’s difficult to believe anyone was paid for writing drivel like that, let alone by a newspaper of the (former) standing of the Times of London. A 12-year-old could do better.
Sorry but “Limp Zinger” is a great name for a band.
They should ask him to write shorter stuff. 1,100 words is far too much for him. Briefs would be fine.
The big mistake that Kenny Farquharson makes is that he believes that the Scottish electorate are as dumb as he is.
Well maybe The Times readership in Scotland is, I don’t know, I’ve never met one.
Dearyfuckinme! case dismissed!
Can anyone remind me how many Pulitzer prizes Mr Farquharson has won? Or how many international newspapers have head-hunted him? I’m surprised he’s still writing for a small-circulation London local paper.
@Rev Stu
I HAVE NO IDEA HOW YOU DID THAT!
Let there be the Schadenfreude scenario – England is kept in against its wishes and EVEL is thwarted. We remain in the EU and use it to move towards independence from the UKU.
Independence in Europe was the battle cry against the “separist” charge from the unionists.
If England does not get its usual way in all things and is kept in the EU due to the non-english vote,what next? Will they accept the “UK” has decided? Or will the Leave remnants made up of English, Labour, Tory and Ukip party members form a new party: “Engip” ?
It is in Scotland’s best interest to Remain. The canard mouthed by Leave yoons that the SNP would rather be “ruled” by the EU than the UK is risible.
The EU and the UKU are different styles of union. The UKU is incorporating, the EU is participatory pooling and sharing sovereignity, the UKU is Anglo dominant and the HoC retains absolute sovereignty with a permanent English- EVEL MAJORITY.
Perhaps he would have been better putting himself in the mind of an average Scot.
Every decade or so we are governed over by a Political Party which has no understanding other than the promotion of business interests,first foremost and last. A party which has and indeed is, systematically destroying Scotland infrastructure to impoverish the nation and make its freedom impossible. We have no choice effectively in having to accept that party because voters in England always have the outcome they desire.
Independence is not so much about international politics,but rather the choices we make affecting our daily living. Until Mr Farquharson understands that,he understands nothing at all.
His method acting is very poor by the way ,allowing his own prejudice to filter through and influence the character.
I think it’s unfair of the Rev to point out that Kenny Farquharson has padded out around 1100 words with bullshit.
After all, the Times’ political reporter can easily pad out bullshit in a 140 character tweet!
Who needs 140 characters when ‘SNP Bad!’ will do?
It really is confusing for the yoons, though, isn’t it? I have read Stanislavski’s “How to Method Act” this morning in order to get an insight into their dilemma and I’m wearing my Harry Potter wizard hat and clutching a spanner to get me in the mood. Here goes:
I desperately want to vote leave but doing so might hasten a second indyref. So I’ll vote stay. But wait, that could swing a UK wide vote to stay, meaning Scotland keeps England in against it’s will and we don’t get to be free of the EU!
Oh no, what is a Yoon to do?? It’s so confusing!!!
I think he lost the thread right from the off and had contradicted himself twice by the second paragraph.
No doubt the loony yoons who read this crap will be splitting their sides with laughter. Who is he trying to target? I would imagine any Independence voters who subscribe to the Times will have sussed Farquharson out long ago, and be wise enough to make up their own mind on such matters.
Times readership in Scotland isn’t going to swing any vote. He’s basically writing yoonscript for his yoonfans. They are the only ones with such feeble mentality to believe any of this shit.
Di Niro,Taxi Driver,
and Scottish cringe Yoon Hacks,
“Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets.”
Kenny Farquarson has that dazed slack jawed look that Iain Gray,Tomkins,Neil Findlay and James Kelly have,
like the Scottish (men) football team they are out of their depths and incompetent but they are the best that is available.
He cannot be that thick, can he? Look on the bright side, he’s fooling nobody that wants independence but the folks that actually read the Times in Scotland might be as thick as him and vote remain to scupper Nicola’s cunning plan. You can just hear them as they come out of the polling booth “we’re IN, that’ll show her.”
Perhaps Stuart, like you, he has a particular cause that’s close to his heart. If this is the case then it could be possible that, like you, he presents observations and interpretations on events in a way that supports his cause.
This seems a fairly obvious and widely appreciated reality of modern journalism for you to have missed.
It is one of the more striking things about British nationalists in general, and British nationalist politicians and professional commentators in particular, that they are not in the slightest bit shy about making complete fools of themselves for the cause.
But what appears as stupidity is, in fact, something far worse. It is a wilful embracing of fallacy. It is a conscious rejection of reality. It is a cherishing of ignorance.
Hard-line unionists have no positive argument for preserving the anachronistic and dysfunctional political union. They have nothing with which to counter the perfectly rational argument that Scotland’s constitutional status should be normalised. That Scotland should resume the capacities that other nations assume to be theirs by right, and whose right to those capacities is not disputed by British nationalists.
It is for this reason that they feel obliged to pretend that the case for restoring Scotland’s rightful constitutional status is something other than the simple claim of right that it is. That it is something complex and shifting and arcane and incomprehensible.
Kenny Farquharson is exceptional only in the artlessness of his straw man fabrications.
You should remember that the Unionist press and reporters have a problem for every solution. So they think. We know different.
“Deadline”
McTernan and Farquharson are plucky young journalists / propagandists on a mission to defend the British State against the might of the Scottish electorate by attempting to understand the seemingly impossible Enigma-like puzzle known as Scottish Politics.
Still trapped in their BT bubble it seems,having thrown their collective journalistic weight behind GB and a fictional author,who,is ‘considerably richer than you’ by the way (so must be right,right?).
Like them, the hacks have retreated into their own bubble,sinking deeper and deeper into their mansions,Howard Hughesing it,all destined to see out their remaining ‘careers’ chastising themselves for their life choices,for being such moronic idiots.
Hating WoS for pricking their UKOK bubbles,for exposing them for what they are,they pull up the drawbridge,to begin their new life,eating too much,using too much ‘medication’,exercising too little,scribbling shite….
Thanks Rev. you have done Scotland a great service in the bubbling of these pricks.
I do have concerns that some independence supporters might think that voting for brexit will give them a shot at another indy ref.
The reason that brexit is grounds for a second referendum is exactly the reason I’m a supporter of Scottish independence and the reason why we don’t need to try to play games with it, if England votes in reasonable numbers to leave, our vote is effectively meaningless. The best signal of the democratic deficit is the stark contrast of a significant stay vote in Scotland being wiped out by an English leave vote.
I hope everyone takes the EU vote as exactly what it is and votes on the merits of the argument, not on the chance of Indy2. If you think we should stay in the EU, vote stay, if you think we should leave, vote leave.
That Kenny doesn’t yet grasp this basic concept is surely impossible- I refuse to believe anyone is so stupid.
We all knew what was required when this whole eu ref plan was just a glint in Nigel’s eye.
What do they want? To muddy the waters? To depress turnout up here? The yoons are in a sticky situation- the conservatives are doing what the snp have so far been unable to do ie break this bleedin union.
Using the enemy’s weight against it is hardly a new idea. Guys like Kenny are all over the place on this and they can see the iceberg looming but the ship ploughs on regardless.
No voters must be struggling with all this.
Nicola is to paraphrase mcternan ‘playing a blinder’ – she is shoring up the remain vote in Scotland whilst simultaneously shoring up the leave vote down south. She is so far ahead of the official leave and remain campaigns in terms of tactics on this that all they see are footprints and the odd snapped twig.
Onwards to independence my friends- even if Kenny doesn’t get it for yes voters the plan is crystal clear.
What a patronising little s**t.
Ooh Kenny, yes we are on first name terms because we are sheep aren’t we, baaaaa.
Yes I am sure that any of the EU countries would love to be joined to their neighbour, because you can’t just be in the EU union and be rational now can you. So all EU countries should sign up to a union with their nearest neighbour and allow one of them to take all of their revenues, call the shots about just about everything, and give them a bit of pocket money back.
It would be impossible for those of us with a conscience to get into ‘character’, acting as a tory, but surely Kenny could manage it.
Two unions, the 300+ years one think they have a right to bully Scotland, while creating hatred from those who are too thick to see that they are being played by their masters constant use of propoganda.
The choice is between a bullying, stealing, cheating, corrupt to the core union, or one which affords at least some protections against a right wing, nigh on fascist regime that is UKOK.
I know which one I will choose, too big a price otherwise and no guarentees that if Indy#2 came about as a result of a brexit, that our neighbour would not send in the tanks, or start a mini war, or dismantle Holyrood, or something which could escalate violence. Sounds extreme I know, but put nothing past the yoons.
If all this shirt was taking place in the Deep south of America we would be decrying it as racist.
The “Jim Crow laws” were designed to make the American black population “separate but equal”. Here we have EVEL.
Here,our fiscal ability and finances are calculated for us by the English Treasury. They decide our needs based on Barnet. Controlled again.
Perhaps ultimately that is what is happening in Scotland. Are we no longer operating at a subconscious level, but have developed an awareness just how rotten our position within this Union has actually been.. I for one am sick of being patronised and controlled by an establishment that perhaps, I previously very much took for granted.
I don’t know much about Farquharson other than occassionally being exposed to the drivel he writes when someone draws attention to it.
What are his views on Brexit? Perhaps he doesn’t see it as the complete and total shit show that Nicola (and many more of us) see to be. Brexit is a disaster to be avoided by any means – including IndyRef2 if necessary.
If Farquharson doesn’t see it that way, then his apparently confused offering can be understood in a context of ambivalence to the outcome. He fails to understand a standpoint which sees continued membership as essential, and withdrawal is the edge of social Armageddon!
I understand the lifeboat scenario. I really do! However, I am genuinely torn between playing games and voting for what I really want. The REAL issue is whether or not the lifeboat is already holed below the waterline before it is launched.
I foresee a real problem with IndyRef2 on the back of a Brexit vote. First of all, we must accept, as we have done for decades, that the will of the UK (middle England) is what we will get here regardless. The notion that a hefty percentage of Scottish voters (perhaps 2 million) can change the course of a UK wide referendum of about 45 million eligable people is probably fanciful at best.
However, the plan is that if Scotland is dragged-out against her will, then this could trigger another IndyRef.
But hold-on a minute here…. If the UK votes out in less than two weeks, then we will only have two years to get a positive IndyRef result and hence remain in the EU as the existing member successor state, whilst rUK exits.
The major obstacles in the 2014 IndyRef were currency and the economy. The notion of border posts at that time were simply scaremongoring at best.
Can anyone tell me with a straight face that IndyRef2 would have a better chance of success, when the proposition would be adopting one of two ‘foreign’ currencies (€ or rUK £), an economy which has faltered significantly due to a low oil price and a very real prospect of border posts on the M6 / A1?
If successful, we would be an independent EU nation with a non-EU border. We could adopt a failing Euro (where a Brexit can only hasten its demise) or we could peg a Scottish Pound to Sterling. Either way, we would become a problematic peninsula to both the EU AND rUK.
In my humble opinion, what we are heading for is the death of a dream. IndyRef2 under these circumstances would be an annihilation rather than a 45/55 affair. Who in their right mind would vote for independence in Europe with a choice of a failing Eurozone currency or a truly foreign peg, an economy at a low point and very real border with our nearest neighbours.
Put yourself in English shoes for a moment – you’ve just got out of the EU, but there are still 500 million potential migrants who might access your country from your only land border in the north. You are on a wave of nostalgia with your George Cross flying above your home, so what would you want? It’s not exactly rocket science and it would keep the builders in Northumberland & Cumbria busy for a while. Up goes the new Hadrians wall, but in the correct place this time.
I’m as nationalist as they come, but I’m sorry to say, I’m not convinced about the upcoming referendum. The man from the Times may be padding-out a piece according to Rev Stu, but he appears to have read much of my own thoughts here.
Any old nonsense. The ‘Press’.
What happened to FFA/Home Rule/Federalism? The false promise.
The UK Union costs Scotland £10Billion+ which could be better spent. Trident/illegal wars, ‘loss leading’ drink, tax evasion, high Oil tax when prices had fallen, losing thousands of jobs. Total Tory mismanagement of the UK economy. Sanctioning and starving the vulnerable.
The EU costs nothing and brings benefits. The money comes back in CAP payments, Grants and shared defence costs. Access to the nearest biggest market and good social Laws.
Westminster indecision blocks the opportunity for renewable Grants for Scotland. Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest CAP payments in the EU. The EU gave Scotland extra payments. Westminster took the payments and gave them to wealthier farmers in the rest of the UK.
Perhaps Farquharson would be better employed writing a column entitled ‘How to patronise and alienate half of the Scottish population with smug, paid-for propaganda’.
Oh, wait, that’s what he does every week.
Don’t get too carried away saying this guy is dumb etc, it’s the only chance the WG has of hanging on to Scotland in the event of a britex vote. If we go for a second ref they will just say we voted to leave the UE and kick us into the long grass. Sure the argument is twisted and illogical but the intention is very sinister for the independence movement. Vote remain or we’re screwed no matter what the result is.
I am glad I didn’t read the full Kenny Farquharson article I think I would have simply lost the will to live.
However it doesn’t matter how much you dumb down Scottish politics for the unionists, they will never understand why people would wish to govern and make their own decisions about their country and its people.
There is no reasoning with the unionists because all that matters to them is maintaining the union of the UK and being governed from Westminster regardless of the cost to Scotland and its people.
I suppose the key point for any yes supporters thinking of voting leave despite the obvious tactical advantage to voting remain is this:
We have not experienced the EU as a sovereign member- we have never had a say on anything or been able to use our strength to combine with other countries to get our point across or get our way. Let’s try it and we can decide for ourselves.
A vote to leave is a vote to make Westminster even more powerful and influential over our country.
finally, I can imagine in the circumstances Nicola is pushing for that the EU would welcome this small but important country with open arms if for no better reason than to give Westminster one in the eye.
The central arguments of the better together campaign are being dismantled in a hurricane of right wing, xenophobic English Nationalism
Europe is watching- this can be the great leap forward we need.
Many people who, like us, are enthusiastic about politics have a strong preference for a particular principles and ideas, and will actively campaign for a party which promotes them. But the Labour Party is unique in having life-long adherents, who are not seeking a career, and for whom it is simply the Party itself that matters, not what its policies or actions are. Were the SNP to abandon the cause of independence, it would be left with a handful of supporters and a new pro-independence party would be formed. But Labour, founded on socialist principles, has long since abandoned them, yet retains the blind loyalty of tribal supporters. Whatever it says or does, it’s Labour, so it must be right.
Farquharson is one of those afflicted: it distorts his perception of political events. Where does it come from? Well, there’s a bit of chip on his shoulder about life. But Farquharson’s politics are at the level of uncritical, simplistic, teenage fanaticism; there comes a time to grow up.
Post today, ‘official info about the referendum on 23rd June’. From, ‘Scottish Vote Leave’, and in tiny text, last but not least, magnifying glass to the ready, ‘promoted by’, somebody in London, SE1.
Says they ‘care about Scotland and fair access to our public services’. Swap ‘our’ to mean, your, in that sentence!
When the ’89 million’ people from countries planning join the EU, do so. they will, ‘have the same rights as other member states’.
Apparently, because of the EU, Scotland has no say in immigration, VAT, and our laws are being controlled by the EU.
Sadly some will take this tripe as fact, even though it is full of lies, they are once again relying on peoples ignorance.
“Perhaps Stuart, like you, he has a particular cause that’s close to his heart. If this is the case then it could be possible that, like you, he presents observations and interpretations on events in a way that supports his cause.”
Thanks for the condescension, but that’s not an explanation. I understand why people are Leave and Remain. I understand why people voted No. I can grasp the arguments they make even if they’re poorly founded.
Kenny Farquharson, on the other hand, is claiming not to have read or understood anything Nicola Sturgeon has ever said about the EU, or to understand the most absolutely basic premise regarding how a Brexit vote could lead to a second indyref. He’s either lying or the stupidest man ever to get a job as a professional political analyst for a serious newspaper.
@Tartan Tory
Aw c’mon, you’re Murdo Fraser aren’t you, c’mon now own up, you are, you know you are
Say it, just say it, you’ll feel better I promise
“Because it’s not Brexit that provides the notional grounds for a second indyref. As even the dogs in the street know, it’s a Brexit that Scotland has voted against.
Scotland has no possible legitimate grievance if it leaves the EU having voted to do so. In that event, democracy would clearly have prevailed and nationalists would have no defensible choice but to accept it.”
Bit of conundrum in these two statements. Like it or not, the Scottish electorate voted to remain part of the UK. It then follows that the result of the UK vote on EU membership has to be accepted as the democratic outcome.
If one attempts to argue that constituent parts that vote in a different way to the prevailing overall result have been somehow been mistreated is to deny the very essence of democracy i.e. you don’t always get what you want.
Gordon Brewer has been spouting this mince every chance he gets too. It’s almost as if they are doing it deliberately…
Just how fucking stupid do these mugs take us for.
What they fear most is an undeniably large pro-EU vote in Scotland. The worst, for the, would be the probable result where well over the majority of those eligible to vote vote Remain. No wiggle room there for misinterpreting that result.
What they want is a result in line with the rUK even/especially if that pushes the result into Leave.
Personally I think there’s a great potential in a Remain result dependent on the strength of the vote in Scotland. Embittered Brexiters will go overboard in their loathing of Scots and SNP voters.
The basic fact here is that the Englanders do Not understand why Scotland does not realise what every Englishman has known for the last 300 years. ENGERLAND BOUGHT SCOTLAND AND ITS PEOPLE (1707) why can’t the jocks just accept it. There is nothing to discuss. Engerland..Engerland.. Engerland!
Mr Farquharsons article does for journalism and objectivity what Jim Davidson’s “Chalky” impressions did for comedy and race relations.
… and probably for the similar “smug Britisher” objectives. Classy.
hypothetical senarios, much loved by journos wishing to spread confusion, much loved by politicians who dont want to answer a question.
much loved by both leave and remain campaigners when expressing their opinion about what the eu will do post brexit. funnily enough, no journalist has thought about asking the eu for clarification. Then again, the EU avoids getting involved in member state internal politics. however, if brexit, you will most certainly hear what the EU’s position is of the now Ex memberstate, indeed, they may even make clear its position on scotland if we vote yes in indyref2
I still think that a remain win is most likely, close, but most likely.
Great dissection of that condescending pish Rev.
Farquharson’s thoughts on “do Sturgeon and Salmond secretly want Brexit”? ; says more about him and Unionists in general than them. The acceptance that it’s ok to lie and cheat to ensure the wishes of our elite, our betters,win the day.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Learning difficulties Sometimes we feel as though dumbing down Scottish politics until the Times’ […]
@Tartan Tory,
It is a two way problem. Cameron desperately wants to stay in the EU,otherwise they may not be able to afford those border posts you speak of. Scotland will be just fine no matter how this pans out. Resource wise, and strategically, we occupy a position other countries would envy.
If you have no faith in yourself or no stomach for the fight ,then leave it to others. Independence may not mean that much to you when you give up at the first hurdle, but I am willing to make sacrifices for a better future should that be necessary. The future is not mine,but belongs to my offspring.I want something better for them
Well I am both a Eurosceptic and a supporter of Scottish independence! The SNP seem to give the impression that folks like me don’t exist and our views are illegitimate. That’s not clever politics.
There is a fundamental problem and incoherency at the heart of the SNPs position.
The pro-EU argument is this. Leaving the EU is ‘too risky’ and will cost you money. Project Fear mark 2. Basically the politics of TINA (there is no alternative) with a dose of “listen to the ‘experts’ they tell the truth with a capital T” thrown in. This is in the context of the world’s 5th largest economy leaving the EU (which isn’t even 70 years old).
However, in the case for Scottish independence all of those things aren’t true. The Treasury forecasts are political propaganda, the risks of leaving the UK are minimal etc.
That set of propositions Brexit = end of the world/risky idea ever and Scottish independence = no risk whatsoever etc are inconsistent.
The best argument for Scottish independence is the sovereignty and democracy one. In an asymmetrical Union Scotland’s voice will always be a minor one. Sovereignty is best excerised at the optimal organising level that is compatible with genuine and robust democratic oversight. This for all practical purposes can only be the nation state. The Scottish people can only democratically shape Scottish society with their sovereignty restored by Scottish independence (what a can on beans costs next week in Asda is trivial nonsense). The Scottish people are the best people to look after the interests of the Scottish people. And ultimately sovereignty is excerised via democracy – don’t like the Scottish government in an independent Scotland – well we can sack them.
But apparently these arguments are entirely bogus with regard to the EU and the UK? So an undemocratic, dysfunctional and unreformable bureaucracy heading in a disastrous direction (ask the folks of Greece for example) is too risky to leave and after all the price of beans might go up and how would we cope?
The logical structure of the SNP’s uncritical acceptance of the EU (verging on dogma) is risible intellectually and politically maladroit. Let alone if the logic of ‘too risky’ and ‘the cost of your beans will go up’ is the only real argument on the pro EU side then why wouldn’t Mr. & Mrs. Worried Unionist think well if the UK is too small, poor etc to live outside the EU doesn’t that suggest that’s even more the case for Scotland and the UK in the context of the prospect of Scottish independence?
Really does anyone in the SNP leadership have a functioning IQ?
The poor(metaphorically speaking) yoons are faced with an awful dilemma so they are projecting their bafflement onto those who support Scottish independence. The ravings of yoon journalists are a source of solace to their yoon followers. Let’s be fair and admit that it must be hard to be a yoon when so much of the certainty that you once felt is being undermined.
No more than they deserve and there is so much more to come.
What punishment is going to be meted out by those at the centre of the EU if there is a vote to remain? What chance is there of a vote to leave being accepted by the elite?
Perhaps Kenny should apply his razor sharp wit to those issues.
Scotland needs to vote to stay in the EU. From my point of view, the rest of the UK can vote whichever way it chooses. Either way will hopefully bring about increasing political awareness in the rUK which will benefit everyone.
If England & Wales are borderline leave, then Scotland must be brought into line. Can’t have people thinking Scotland are fundamentally different from the rest of the UK: that strengthens the case for independence.
Protecting the United Kingdom is simply more important than remaining in the EU to these people. Selling Scotland down the river, perpetuating falsehoods about our wealth, forcing Tory governments on us – all prices they are willing to pay, so long as we remain in the UK.
It’s also why they’re promoting those SNP groups that back a Leave vote despite party policy.
In rUK, they’re wanting to maximise the Remain vote: in Scotland, they want to minimise it.
Or even simpler- The EU parliament is not sovereign. Westminster is and Holyrood isn’t. We have a parliament that is effectively permissioned by London’s independent parliament. Which in turn has seats in the non sovereign EU parliament and directly represents itself independently.
Scotland does not represent itself independently in the EU or anywhere in the world. We want to be independently represented in Brussells so our voice is heard. Scotland pays it’s taxes to London not Brussels.
Why do Latvia and Estonia want to be in the EU but not in the Soviet Union?
Inconsistent and baffling frankly.
It’s absurd to compare the UK to the USSR. And the EU is sovereign over many areas of UK life. To deny that fact is simply ignorance or dishonesty. Of course people can judge if the trade-offs involved in the EU are worth the drawbacks ditto Scotland and the Union.
It was incredulity, not condescension. I believe the article is written in character as an ardent independence supporter. Perhaps he’s poking fun based on what he believes that individual might think or understand from the statements being expressed by prominent figures.
You present your own political and partisan opinions left and right, calling some who disagree or have a different interpretation liars. This is fundamentally dishonest and plain bad form.
After listening to the ITV EU referendum debate last night I (regrettably) felt the Leave side were winning over the audience (much to my horror) with their simplistic and repetitious claim to regain control; I guess they are after the support of the average semi-literate voter down south. I won’t mention which papers they tend to read.
For anyone who did not listen to the two hour debate and find consideration of the often debatable facts unappealing one need only look at those who support the Leave campaign to reach the conclusion that it is best for everyone living in the British Isles to vote to Remain.
I’m not referring to the leaders or speakers last night, but the extremist organisations who have allied with self seeking individuals such as Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and his minion in Scotland,Cockburn. They make the Orange Order and their support of the Union seem like the outcome of deep thought after an honest appraisal of economics and history as they impact on the current state of the Union by a bunch of highly intelligent, thoughtful and considerate individuals.
Just ask yourself if you would trust your future well-being to those arguing to Leave? As Nicola Sturgeon said (if my memory serves me correctly) she wouldn’t trust them any more than she could toss Boris over her shoulder (or something to that effect). Neither would I, for what it is worth – I’d multiply that ten-fold if there is the possibility of Johnson becoming Prime Minister.
I think Kenny has betrayed the fact that it’s him who doesn’t understand the situation. Nobody else.
Today we’re going to used “The Method” to green insite in to the political reporter Kenny F.
I have fastidiously gather my sources a tweet on my phone.
I have my goals
1. To hack together a SNP BAD story they sell well with my bosses
2. AVOID at all cost don’t any real political reporting in particular the second biggest story in the UK today the Apparent systematic mis-representation of electoral expenses by the tory party. Even when it possible includes the only tory mp in Scotland.
3. ….. R VARIABLE OUT OF RANGE goal exceed this text generate units capacity
If there are drone/robot in play you maybe looking in the wrong place.
A story that depending on how it plays out could see 33 maybe more by-elections and possibly an entire government fall as Judges involved have speculated that it çould void the entire GE and yet with the exception of C4 MSM have been all but mute on the subject KF can’t carry the can on this he is just a political reporter payed to write what he is told no scope for investigation or real depth but there are MSM political Editors that are following the story online but remain mute in the studio..or press.
Kenny is dishonestly making out Nicola (praise be her name)
doesn’t know what she wants. This is the usual reportage we have come to expect from the Yoon Corp media.
I agree with Nicola’s (praise be…) standpoint. Scotland will desire Independence when Scotland has the self belief required. However i would welcome the chance to display how different we are north and south of the border.
I watched the debate and was well impressed with Scotlands first minister. Boris looked like a Yoon Buffoon. I hope the rest of the world was watching. The leave side were lying, lying, lying. Voting out of the EU will not stop immigration. Immigration will contiue to rise regardless of the vote. The only way to regain control of UK borders and control EU immigration is to stop trading with the EU and no one is proposing that. The leave sides real purpose is to strip you and I of our rights and allow London to be the world capital of de-regulated money laundering.
I’m in. I accept the EU Union and reject UK union. Don’t care if they can’t grasp that. Welcome to Dumpsville losers.
Born optimist – is not ‘regain control of our destiny as a nation’ the key premise of Scottish independence? It is for me.
Then again maybe I am ‘simple-minded’ btw isn’t that a SLAB trick to merely insult people with a different point of view?
Holy fcuk, toryboy BBC groveling to the queen’s gone mad on BBC r4 lunchtime news.
@Joe Kinnear
Are you serious?
Do you honestly think I was comparing the UK with the USSR?
The irony for me is seeing England screaming we leave the Premier League for demotion, after warning Scotland to leave the UK stopped us sitting at the top table.
The trouble with being part of the UK and the EU is that they are inter-related. At the moment Scotland is part of the UK. I believe that the best option for Scotland as part of the UK is that the UK remain part of the EU. Partly due to self interest but also because of the headline £350m on the Leave bus about a third comes back as a rebate and a sixth is spent within the UK. Obviously in the case of farming subsidy Westminster have been known to pool and share unfairly but in most situations where that money is spent is up to our elected EU representatives.
On Balance Scotland may benefit more from the EU than the UK on average. Add in to that the lower costs to access EU markets with the other options meaning we’d still be bound by EU regs without as much influence in making them.
If Scotland were independent my opinion on EU membership might change.
There are 4 combinations of UK/EU membership using I for in and O for out that’s II IO OI OO. There are 24 possible arrangements of those. An independence supporter might place them, from most preferred to least,
OI OO II IO or OO IO OI II
Depending on how they see things.
OK so there’s an element of strategy in that the the aftermath of a Brexit might lead to higher support for independence but it’s not certain and I’m certainly not going to pursue that in the hopes that the negative impact on Scotland will promote independence.
The TNS poll last night seems to indicate a hefty Remain vote in Scotland 71% is hefty in anyone’s book.
If that transpires next week and it is an Out vote (or we hold the UK in by a whisker) then I think Kenny will be railing against outcome and the implications.
No doubt he will be telling us we didn’t really mean it and that we failed to prepare correctly in order to be proper SNP voters like what he did*
* I think he went to the Ernie Wise school of acting
I did wonder how the uber-Yoons would try to spin Nicola’s appearance last night, I wasn’t surprised. The SNP’s arguments about the EU / uGB have been entirely consistent , if you take the time to actually red them AND understand them (I don’t support the SNP). Personally I will vote remain because I don’t want any of the Westminster Yoon set negotiating ‘on Scotland’s behalf’.
Were it not for the possibility that a Scottish Remain vote might trigger a new independence referendum then I am convinced that Scottish Remain support would be far less than it currently is.
How many of you out there would, were it not for the trigger argument, vote Leave?
For me it is about the principles of membership. Am I committed to a fully integrated and evolving union, or do I believe that we should be a stand alone union of countries (or independent country).
During the independence referendum we had all the scare stories thrown at us; that jobs would be at risk, investment would be at risk, that trade and immigration barriers would be erected, that freedom of movement would be lost or restricted, and Oooh! The Uncertainty!
I heard all of those arguments last night in the STV debate, and sadly Nicola Sturgeon stooped to the level where even she was using them.
Likewise I heard all the opposing views rehashed; No clear plan, that assertions and aspirations can’t be guaranteed. All that was missing was the currency and the oil.
Farquharson is correct, in that some arguments sound the same. Instead of confusing me though, it galls me to see the likes of Gove and Johnson speaking about seeing money go out which doesn’t return, about unelected politicians ruling over us and about controlling our own destiny. To them these AREN’T principles, for if they were they would have surely have championed them when Scotland sought them!
During the referendum I didn’t buy into the scare stories, or the uncertainty. Life is uncertain. Your investments can go up or down. But they are your choices. I couldn’t be bought with the £500 worse off line, and being in or out of the EU wasn’t a deal breaker for me either. I can live in it, or outside it.
So for me it doesn’t matter. I have voted No2EU in the past, but it’s not the be all and end all. Life will go on, either way.
But this brings me back to principles. The biggest gamble for me isn’t staying in or leaving. The biggest gamble is betting everything on a Scottish Remain/English Leave vote. We are being asked to tactically vote Remain to secure Indyref2, but what if England votes to remain? In two years we will have endorsed the UK AND the EU, and that Indyref2 will remain, for now, out of reach.
That’s why I’d say vote on your principles, and let the cards fall as they may.
Bob Mack says:
” Resource wise, and strategically, we occupy a position other countries would envy.”
Well said. Those of faint heart should never forget that.
London and the SE may be the only part of the UK which is wealthier than Scotland. However ours is based on solid assets, theirs is based on the vapour of the financial industry.
@Joe Kinnear
10 June, 2016 at 12:57 pm
Agree with almost all you said. Like you I am a Eurosceptic and voted SNP nearly all my life. I therefore find it rather disturbing that on something as important as this no SNP MP/MSPs have come down on the side of what is believed to be the opinion of 1/3 of the members.
I know it’s been explained several times but I just can’t seem to square the circle of voting for Independence to gain our sovereignty and voting to stay in the EU to relinquish it. My major issue with the EU is not to do with immigration or economics, like IndyRef it’s about self determination.
The argument that if we vote OUT we will give more power to the Tories in Westminster is the same argument used in the IndyRef that voting YES would give us an SNP government forever. These are typical straw man arguments, which depressingly people seem to fall for.
The argument is even more ludicrous when applied to Scotland as we would hope to be shot of them forever in 5 years or so. Which is another reason why people shouldn’t be conflating the EURef and IndyRef2. As @Marko writes above:
“I hope everyone takes the EU vote as exactly what it is and votes on the merits of the argument, not on the chance of Indy2. If you think we should stay in the EU, vote stay, if you think we should leave, vote leave.”
Bob Mack,
You clearly have no idea how much time and effort Tartan Tory put into the Indyref.
Nicola also says that Brexit is not the ideal circumstance for Indy2. TT has merely outlined a couple of reasons.
Hopefully, seeing the same old arguments being put forward and rubbished by both sides in the EUref will have awoken people to the pish that they were told when the media were in the main pushing the NO vote.
That, the attitude from Westminster since Indyref and the ‘broken promises’ will hopefully be enough to make Indy2 sucessful even not held at the ideal time of our choosing.
Really does anyone in the SNP leadership have a functioning IQ?
Try listening Joe. Nicola spelt out the reasons in the STV debae last night. Alyn Smith spelt it out on The Big Debate on Radio Sdcotland this lunchtime.
Alternatively, read The Wee Bleu Book
link to scotlandineurope.eu
Or go to the SNP website and download their Vote Remain pack
link to snp.org
Also, try not to be so patronising.
This is just another column filler by KF. How about asking what happens next if there is an out vote? Could the UK Govt survive ? Would Boris Johnson really be PM ? What role for UKIP?
We learned pretty damn quick after our Referendum while the media were busy bombarding the YES side with unanswerable questions, the Tories were drawing up their own plans which no journalist thought was maybe relevant to ask about.
He should stop playing at being a journalist and actually do something useful or does he not have the contacts or balls to ask his beloved leaders- what is plan B ?
@ Various
The problem is that the correct solution for the UK in the first place, and the one that Winston Churhill suggested 100 years ago in response to the Irish issue, is not on the table.
The correct solution in the first place, predating devolution, was a federal state. But we are now beyond that. The choices viz Scotland/UK are status quo or independence.
In Europe there is evolving a federation. Ultimately the nation states will still want to be identifiably France or Italy. But the trading situation among other matters favours large blocks. The 18th century answer was empires. The Scots got access to the biggest of those, and the sum for the whole was greater than for the parts. Today it is likely a confederation in Europe.
The independent Scots may find that the EU is not for them in the end. We will be free to go. But IMHO right now, it is probably in Scotland’s interest to be in the EU. It is probably 6 and 2 x 3’s for England. It is very much in Ireland’s interest.
So if we are a wonderful Union of equals in the UK, it is not in the biggest nation’s gift surely to look solely to its interest alone in this matter.
For now I would vote to remain. It is not perfect. But the UK is in a serious economic condition. The whole eurozone is weak economically. Its a gamble to rock the boat right now. But vote for what you want. Like our own referendum, the stats we are fed are not reliable. You have to do your own homework.
We should actually not even be asking this question at all. Its all about UKIP and their gravitational pull on right wing voters. Its got nothing to do with whats best for the people.
For his next column, Kenny will be writing as a ScotLab unionist sycophant.
No method acting will be required.
Scottish Psyche,
‘Why do Latvia and Estonia want to be in the EU but not in the Soviet Union?’
Brilliant line.
@ScottishPysche UK and USSR – you tell me it was your analogy (not mine) of Estonia and Latvia wanting to be part of the EU but not part of the Soviet Union. I assumed your inference was that Scotland is like Estonia or Latvia and the UK is in this context is the USSR.
If I missed your point then you can clarify.
Kenny F. That is a very, laborious and boring bit of writing. Did you read it before you submitted it?
‘Could do better.’
@Capella says:
10 June, 2016 at 2:05 pm
“Also, try not to be so patronising.
Irony alert!!!
Joe Kinnear: The EU is sovereign over many areas of UK life.
The crap peddled by the haters of Johnny Foreigner.
I can’t understand why the Remain side lets Leave get away with their ‘gain control’ argument. It’s patently obvious that we will lose control if we leave, because the bulk of our trade is with the EU.
Not only would continued trade with the EU oblige us to undertake the same conditions as present, including payments of money and legal obligations, but we would have no say in this or in any future new conditions.
What do these f***wits think is going to happen to our trade come Brexit? That the EU will offer us a favourable new trade deal?
That anybody else will?
The truly hilarious thing is that if Stu hadn’t put this on Wings, only a tiny number of SNP voters would have seen it.
So carry on Mr Farquharson nobody is listening to your drivel, and when they do it’s torn to shreds.
On the day I’ll vote tactically depending on what I perceive the result in England to be.
I have no strong feelings either way for the EU especially after their disgusting treatment of Scotland during our referendum.
The argument that we will have £350 million extra a week to spend in the UK holds no water either.Apart Can we really expect that there will be no trade tariffs introduced for an erstwhile partner ? No contracts cancelled? No alternatives sought within the EU for products or produce formerly purchased from Britain.?
The drop in Gdp may well make that £350 million a week meaningless as an extra source of income.
@ Bob Mack, Tartan Tory has put in the hours & miles + money (like many Wingers) in the cause of Independence, everyone has their own viewpoint & are entitled to express it. I,ve have had my say on the EU ref & wont comment on it any further.
I am not confused at all. Farquharson is a UKOK dick. He will say exactly what his bosses tell him to say. I have no time or respect for such Brit worms.
As far as I am concerned a vote either way will not speed us closer or further away from Indy we will be just where we are and that is stilled in the water metaphorically.
Scotland votes to stay and England votes to leave will change nothing in the short to medium term. There is no guarantee of that outcome anyway as I am now 100% certain that the whole EU vote will be rigged.
According to one Moray Council source and I don’t know if this is true or not that the number PV applications for EU Referendum is actually more than the PV applications for the Scots Indy Referendum. I am trying to get confirmation of that.
Well whatever certain issues have to be addressed before we can even think about having another Scots Indy Referendum. Those issues have to be addressed regardless of the outcome of the EU Referendum.
I do find it funny that the German Finance Minister is saying no you cant be part of the EU Single Market if you vote Leave. It is a bit like saying we cant use the Ingerlish Pound if we had voted Yes. Oh well Karma is a nasty bitch isn’t it! Or is it Deja Vu is nasty bitch?
@Ronnie Anderson,
So he is entitled to his view. So am I Ronnie,,even though it is diametrically opposed to his. It is not about the hours we have all put in, including me.
Slovenia says
I look to Prof Tomkinski for many things, comedy mainly but this toryboy made himself famous for his reams of vote No or Scotland’s out of the EU and the EU wont want you fascist scum, style of CiF.
But on Brexit and his scotland region there’s nothing.
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins Jun 9
Finally a good answer from the First Minister: she’s no good at building bridges. That should make minority govt interesting.
Oh no the hacks blub by monstering everything Scottish, foreign and not English we have handed indy to them on a plate.
And Kenny most of us are sceptical of the EU but do not know enough about it to make a judgement and would like to find out by ourselves and not told how bad it is from the tory party,who`s credibility on the truth is sitting about minus a trillion just now in the eyes of us.
Yes we will vote Remain and yes we hope its a brexit in England not because of the UK or the EU or the SNP and certainly not because of a stinking tory but we will do it for Scotland and her freedom.
Suck it up chaps you were told you should have let us go when you had the chance,hope you liked our constitutional h-bomb we chucked in the middle of your little England is Britain is the UK freedom from the EU debate.
And we have another want to see it vote brexit though we could still stick it on you if you vote Remain full EU membership for Scotland and a declaration we will no longer recognize the UK membership of a union inside a union to be an acceptable position for either the EU or Scotland due to the uncertainty of having our EU membership removed by a leaving member state we share a union,or meant to not that you would know it,with.
Check? tick tock 🙂
There’s actually tons of it from Slovenia
link to notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com
Its all about sharing say the toryboy’s in their Scotland region, pooling and sharing is the best way for the greatest union ever, UK, and even annoying little places like Scotland.
or, vote Remain because you dont understand it, like what we toryboys do-
“Like the Scottish Nationalists, the Brexiteers misunderstand the nature of sovereignty in the modern world. The reality of power is that it is shared. No-one exercises it absolutely. Everyone, even the most powerful, is constrained by law, by the need to seek agreement, by consent.
This would be the case for Scotland even if it left the UK, just as it would be true for the UK even if it leaves the EU. I wrote many times on these pages in 2013-14 that the SNP’s prospectus for Scottish independence would increase, not decrease, Scotland’s dependence on the rest of the UK and would do so at the same time as reducing Scottish influence in London.
The thing is. Everybody expected the Yes side to vanish after the Scottish referendum. The same thing will probably happen after this EU referendum. England divided and polarised ,perhaps like Scotland.
Could this prove advantageous?
My ideal scenario would be: Brexit followed by YES vote for independence (not necessarily linked).
Then, Scotland, with its immense natural resources, especially in clean energy, oil and fishing stocks, could sit back and decide whether to:
(1) Allow the EU to make a political coup by having at least part of Great Britain back inside the EU — but on our terms. We would not only dictate our economic terms, but hopefully tell Brussels to lay off our Greek cousins, Portuguese friends, Italian neighbours…
(2) Discuss whether or not to form a “new EU” with our close neighbours Norway and Iceland, based on democracy, non-austerity, commitment to UN values, providing a safe haven to Snowden, etc…
All this talk about protecting workers…. who is best placed to protect workers?
(1) Westminster
(2) Brussels
(3) Independent Scotland governed by the SNP or whatever combination of leftist parties win the first post-indy elections
@Kenny
I want Scotland to be ruled by the Scottish people, not by people in London nor in Brussels thanks very much.
As for you notion that Scotland would dictate terms to the EU that is simply magical thinking of the worst kind. You get the Union or the EU as it really is not some fantasy of a ‘reformed’ version of either!
@ Bob Mack
“If you have no faith in yourself or no stomach for the fight ,then leave it to others. Independence may not mean that much to you when you give up at the first hurdle”
This statement is why you’ve had a bit of flack – nothing else. Please don’t gripe with the likes of Ronnie, because you happen to think something that is entirely incorrect. Do NOT assume, just because our views on the EU may be different, that you are somehow more worthy of the Scottish independence cause.
I was there as a Referendum Agent for Wings in 2014, at all the postal vote openings and at the count on the day. The Referendum saw me spend over £10k of hard-earned in donations to various causes. Believe me, I cried all the way home from the count and I have not worn a kilt since that day.
I DON’T want to go through that again and I can tell you, without any shaddow of a doubt, that we would LOSE IndyRef2 by a significanlty larger margin if it were to be held in the next couple of years. Furthermore, there would be no IndyRef3 in a lifetime.
So, keep fighting the good fight, but be mindful of what you suggest about your allies when you don’t actually know them. Remember also that this is a long fight. Trying to tempt the final battle too early could be the downfall of all.
Is it just me, or is Kenny’s attempt to “inhabit the mind of an SNP voter” somewhat like trying to inhabit the mindset of #BlackLivesMatter by smearing on boot polish, or the mind of an Irish republican by putting on a leprechaun-type hat and saying “begorrah” a lot?
In other words, he constructs a straw man with no more brain than the one in the Wizard of Oz, and then inhabits that. Where he no doubt feels at home.
lots of commentators saying no one knows how post brexit will look like
yes we do, if brexit
1. westminster will close the borders, this isnt negotiable, free movement will end
2. tariff barriers will be erected
“No single market entry for Britain after Out vote, German finance minister warns”
there is no doubt or question what this tariff barrier will impact uk trade.
question, if brexit, can sturgeon then approach the eu for clarification on scotlands position should we vote yes in indyref2?
For me, it’s very simple. There are two unions. One is far from perfect and in need of reform and a good dose of democracy. But on balance it is to our advantage to be in it.
The other is dysfunctional, oppressive, anachronistic, out of balance and concentrates wealth in one part of the union (not our part). I’m sure (?) it has some redeeming features (can’t think what they are at the moment) but on balance it is disadvantageous for us to be in it.
Why do people like Farquharson find that hard to understand?
I DON’T want to go through that again and I can tell you, without any shaddow of a doubt, that we would LOSE IndyRef2 by a significanlty larger margin if it were to be held in the next couple of years. Furthermore, there would be no IndyRef3 in a lifetime.
It may be that given the power and glory of UKOK propaganda, ref 2 is just not an option for Scotland. Its one thing to demand ref 2 but the fact is, BBC etc will make sure the UK wins again.
@Tartan Tory,
“I DON’T WANT TO GO THROUGH THAT AGAIN”. That is fear talking.
Sorry mate, but I do. Win ,lose ,draw,whatever. I will never give up .I am no fool or eternal optimist,but I can see an alignment of circumstances to create the “Perfect Storm” just within our grasp. Besides I trust Nicolas judgement on this and she has strongly indicated Brexit ,should it happen would be such an issue.
I do not know you at all ,but you support independence.Good enough.
I shall be voting Remain.
I believe the correct time for an in out decision for Scotland, is after we become independent.
Then the decision is made from a wholly Scottish perspective, based on what sort of deals and conditions of being in the EU are available to us.
@Capella. Yes rule by Brussels good, Westminster bàaaaaaaaaaaaaaaàaaaaaaaaaàaad seems to be the argument from the SNP. What next maybe Sturgeon (an increasingly unimpresive figure imho) will borrow Broon’s line about the pooling and sharing of sovereignty? Sovereignty is a bit like being pregnant – you either have it or you don’t.
I perfectly well understand the SNPs uncritical and unconditional love of the EU but I reject their position as being conceptually dubious, incoherent and politically maladroit and actually profoundly damaging to the case for Scottish independence ultimately. If Iceland can function as a sovereign nation why on earth does Scotland need the EU as safety blanket.
Furthermore the sovereignty of the Scottish people is NOT the property of the fucking SNP to gift away on their whim to a half-baked currency unions or to an profoundly undemocratic and unaccountable EU.
The SNP have to take Scottish sovereignty seriously and not make it about silly childish nonsense about disliking Boris Johnson or whomever.
Play the conceptual ball not the temporary actors on stage to mix metaphors.
@ Bob Mack
It will Bob especially if Remain pull it out the bag in England with dodgy postal votes though the other side will probably cancel that out with their own dodgy postal votes 115% turnout in the shires lol
“Like it or not, the Scottish electorate voted to remain part of the UK.”
It did so, however, on a very clear and unambiguous promise that doing so would guarantee its continued membership of the EU. Should that promise be broken there is a legitimate case that the No vote was gained on false pretences and should be subject to confirmation via a second referendum.
@ Bob Mack
Fear??? Read what I said again – We would LOSE IndyRef2 if it were held in the next two years. There would be no third chance. Period.
If that doesn’t scare you, then you maybe don’t want the prize as much as I do. 😉
Furthermore the sovereignty of the Scottish people is NOT the property of the fucking SNP to gift away on their whim to a half-baked currency unions or to an profoundly undemocratic and unaccountable EU.”
Latest Scots EU ref poll’s are 70% and over support for the fucking SNP Remain Scotland campaign.
Its all up to England anyway.
So youre right about Scots sovereignty not being the property of any Scots. Its what proud Scotbuts voted for 2014, letting our neighbours decide stuff for us.
Tomkins is a twat. He confuses the laws of Scotland with those of England. If the people of Scotland are truly sovereign then we can withdraw consent from Westminster along with our representatives. 3 Unionist MPs would be less than impressive in any continuing claim from Westminster to any legislative power in Scotland. The Parliament Acts themselves recognise the fundamental fact that authority rests in being elected. He also ignores that any law is subject to amendment.
Joe Kinnear: “Yes rule by Brussels good, Westminster bàaaaaaaaaaaaaaaàaaaaaaaaaàaad seems to be the argument from the SNP. What next maybe Sturgeon (an increasingly unimpresive figure imho) will borrow Broon’s line about the pooling and sharing of sovereignty? Sovereignty is a bit like being pregnant – you either have it or you don’t.”
An atypical, over-the-top, frenzied fear of anybody who likes Johnny Foreigner, and not one iota of truth in it.
@Joe Kinnear,
The Sovereignty of the Scottish people is given (or loaned) to whoever they elect to represent them whether you like that fact or not.
I feel outraged that Boris Johnston could deprive me of my EU citizenship.
the lack of basic awareness of issues and strategies demonstrated by a so called journalist is unfathomable unless they are simple propagandists without any journalistic credibility. I left Bella group because someone posted a similarly stupid suggestion of voting leave to achieve the basis for Ref 2, but at least I assume the postee was not employed on the basis of having an awareness of Scottish politics and the issues surrounding the EU referendum.
I think we all agree that an Independant Scotland would be ‘a beautiful thing’,the only discussion is over timing.
IMO,the ‘job’ of yessers is 90% done,as is the norm,that last 10% could take 90% of the time,and that’s if we were in control of all aspects of the ‘job’.
We are not,all we can do is continue to prepare as if Indy 2 was tomorrow,but in the very real knowledge that it could be a while yet,sitting on your arse is the real enemy.
My advice,is to keep doing what we/your doing,what you do best,but right now,this minute,we don’t own ‘a beautiful thing’,circumstances do change very quickly,let’s continue moving forward,destiny awaits and….
The clock is still ticking….
😉
Presumably, if BREXIT wins and Boris becomes PM, his old London-centric parochialism would have to go.
This new move to a more one-nation approach might conceivably grow from his “A pound spent in London is worth more than a pound spent in Scotland.” to “A pound spent in England is worth more than a pound spent in Scotland.”
Another of these Vote Leave pretend-to-give-the-facts leaflet came with the post today. A nifty wee map showing all those Balkan countries and Turkey waiting to join (with Syria and Iraq also partly coloured-in as if to imply they are next or something). The most obvious conclusion one might innocently draw is that the EU must be doing something fairly right if all these countries still want to belong. Though the Brexiteers cry rivers of crocodile tears over countries such as Greece and Portugal, they conveniently forget to say that none of these countries have any intention whatever of leaving!
But this map has an entirely different purpose, which is to scare people into lifting the drawbridge on those dirty Johnny Foreigners. It’s the same kind of vile sub-racist filth (for those of you old enough to remember) that Enoch Powell used to stir people up with.
I guess there are people in Scotland for whom this rings a Pavlovian bell just as much as in England, but anyone who is a supporter of Scottish independence should be easily able to recognise that this kind of intolerance doesn’t rest easy, and if Brexit wins, guess where will it likely turn its attention next? The misogynistic and outright racist reactions to Nicola’s appearance in a TV debate yesterday I think gives you the answer to that.
And here’s the thing. At the very bottom of this leaflet, in ultra-small print, the text “Your data may be held on servers outside the EEA”. Ie. Vote Leave are going to track you by carefully avoiding all the data protections that the EU guarantees its citizens! That is the real meaning of their “red tape”.
If the people of Scotland are truly sovereign then we can withdraw consent from Westminster along with our representatives.”
Probably not. Seceding from the UK union is not an option for a lot of big reasons.
Prof Tomkins is pretty good on polling and sharing sovereignty, if only because this is what happens. His vote NO fury directed at YES Scots focused primarily on the pooling and sharing of everything in the UK, resources, taxation, right to work etc. Its a good thing says Prof T, nae, its a divine British gift, long to rein over you, you lucky ingrates.
One of the great BetterTogether triumphs of BBC Scotland and Bliar MacDoughball in particular, was convincing or rather terrifying just enough Scots into accepting that Prof Tomkinski’s style of UKOK pooling and sharing IS a good thing for Scotland.
Its probably what won it.
And who can forget one of the greatest liars in British history, Gordon Brown, going round BBC studio’s explaining to Scots pensioners that they’d lose their UK pension, if they voted YES.
Bella gets it right sometimes.
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
They are both Unions so why do we want to leave one and stay in the other?…
Does that mean that the Leave/Out people want the breakup of the UK too? They are both Unions after all…
The logic going either way is hardly impressive.
@No Kinnear
You are posting some pretty hysterical stuff there, about Brussels ruling our lives, reminds me of the rhetoric of Coburn, railing about toasters.
EU is about ceding a little bit of power, to get more benefits back. Perhaps you want to give some examples of how your life is so curtailed by the EU?
Alternatively, here’s a respected businessman and some lawyers giving some clarity on the matter.
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
Stu Wilson @ 16:34 said:
Oh, a very nifty inversion there, Stu. That one is worth repeating again and again…
And Valerie, I fear that the people promoting Leave here aren’t actually ordinary yessers with an off-kilter compass as you might be assuming, but actually paid-up Vote Leave activists trying it on with WoS. They probably aren’t interested in a rational discussion of yer actual facts, alas.
I don’t like Johnny Foreigner and I don’t like Jocky Scotch. I am British.
BTW, I find this warcry of ‘undemocratic’ very odd.
We elect 751 MEPs via a PR system. But the Brexiteers are happy to hand more power to a corrupt WM, and HoL?
I can only imagine the UK is a bit of a laughing stock at the scale of our lack of democracy.
@Tartan Tory
You make a valid point. We will only get one more chance at an Independence referendum even in my childrens lifetime. How about a third referendum in 2022 after failing yet again in 2018 hypothetically.
However! we would not necessarily lose a second referendum say in 2018 after a Brexit against the will of the Scottish voter. Their will be an optimum time for a second vote and Brexit may be it or it may not.
Who can tell? One thing’s for sure you will know more after the 23rd June than we do now. No point in trying to second guess the future just like with the price of oil. Let’s just wait and see what hand we are dealt with after the EU result.
Their will be a lot of fallout if it’s a Brexit, definately the pound and UK shares will be under pressure, so will our banks. Maybe some companies will announce plans to relocate. Who knows?
Pair of twos we fold, full house get the lot on. It’s a gamble.
It isn’t just the trigger: it’s the fact that we are still part of the UK. Even if it was a strong remain vote in the rest of the UK, I would vote to remain – because the question on the ballot is “should the United Kingdom remain part of the EU, or leave the EU.” Not an independent Scotland: the UK.
Exactly. And because the “we” there is “UK,” I’m voting to remain.
Once again, Scotland is not on the ballot. This is a UK-wide vote, and we have to vote as citizens of the UK. Since I don’t *want* to be a citizen of the UK, I’m not going to vote to give Westminster more power over Scotland than it already has – which is exactly what would happen with a Remain vote.
Not only that, there was never any question that being part of the EU was seen as desireable and necessary from both the Yes and No sides. Why has this changed since the indyref in certain quarters?
It’s a falsehood, plain and simple, reliant on a lack of understanding as to what the EU is. All the focus is on the “unelected” EU commission, yet we have lords and members of the privy council who have never been elected, yet make our laws.
Our current EU commissioner has NEVER been elected at any point by the British people, yet he represents all of us. Who’s fault is it – the EU for accepting him, or the UK government for nominating him instead of someone with a history of public support and advocacy?
Stu Wilson @ 16:34 said:
Oh, a very nifty inversion there, Stu! That one is definitely worth repeating again and again!
And Valerie, you may be assuming that those here promoting Leave are ordinary yessers with a wonky political compass, whereas in fact they are more likely to be Vote Leave con artists just trying it on with WoS. And not really interested in yer actual facts, alas.
Re; tartantory@3.34
You seem very sure, even with the timing, any inside info on that at all? The bulk of commenters here on WoS would not want to lose another Indy ref, but to rule it our is bizarre. I hate flying, but if I had to I would get on a plane.
If it’s a brexit, and the polls show that being dragged out of the EU, in complete contrast to what the people of Scotland were told in 2014, indicates majority support for Scottish indpendence then we hav to go with that. At what point was Scotland asked if it would agree to an EU, in out referendum, not at all far as I remember.
Re;Sunniva@3.50
‘Outraged’, you could say that, or terrified that we may well find ourselves shackled to westmonster with no EU citizen status, chilling indeed. I want to live in a modern democracy not a backward, right wing regime, where the britnats are becoming more rabid by the day, no thanks.
Confession. I’m just posting this to try out the new server setup.
This may appear twice, but now without typos.
Re; tartantory@3.34
You seem very sure, even with the timing, any inside info on that at all? The bulk of commenters here on WoS would not want to lose another Indy ref, but to rule it out is bizarre. I hate flying, but if I had to I would get on a plane.
If it’s a brexit, and the polls show that being dragged out of the EU, in complete contrast to what the people of Scotland were told in 2014, indicates majority support for Scottish indpendence then we have to go with that. At what point was Scotland asked if it would agree to an EU, in out referendum, not at all far as I remember.
Re;Sunniva@3.50
‘Outraged’, you could say that, or terrified that we may well find ourselves shackled to westmonster with no EU citizen status, chilling indeed. I want to live in a modern democracy not a backward, right wing regime, where the britnats are becoming more rabid by the day, no thanks.
Other than force them to attend at gunpoint how can Westminster stop all 56 MPs elected on an SNP ticket being called home? If Westminster refuse the face saving transfer of the power to hold a “binding” inyref2 then the vast majority of the MPs from Scotland absenting themselves effectively ends the parliamentary union and, as far as the laws of Scotland are concerned, the mechanism whereby Wesminster gains the right to exercise our sovereignty. Arguably Holyrood might at that point lose it’s devolved powers. That’d depend on whether a referendum had been held or not and whether the case that “devolution” is a mislabeling of the transfer of a portion of sovereignty from Westminster to Holyrood can be made.
@ Morag
Same here. Seems much like the old one…
Kenneth Farquharson is a jackass.
Appolgies to decent jackasses of the four legged varity.
KF lacks the wit to inhabit the mind of an SNP voter. No wonder he struggles.
will englands performance in euro 2016 effect the euref result?
need to know when to cheer or not
if it will, is the decision to hold it in the middle of the tournement a wise one?
Doh! I missed a typo.
Anyway, Robert J.Sutherland, I was thinking the same re leave comments. Lets hope that the vote in Scotland is all above board, as we all know, the majority here in Scotland by far, want to stay in the EU.
Scotland is a forward thinking country, and to be dragged out by england would not go down well, especially perhaps witn the no voters who like to travel, like my well off no voting neighbours, whose kids work in EU countries. They have big ‘REMAIN’ posters in their windows!
I’ve got to the stage now that I no longer have discussions on the EU Referendum with some of my ‘Yes’ minded compatriots. I am now watching on with bemusement as some have been tricked into believing that the arguments over the EU are either 100% black or 100% white. There is no middle ground for give and take.
What is baffling to me …is the number of Scots who seek independence for Scotland, but are clamouring hard for an ‘Out’ vote. I cannot believe they can’t see the double-whammy, nay even triple whammy, of the grave outcome that they are trying to achieve. It’s almost a case of that they are not only shooting themselves in one foot, but are happily taking aim to shoot themselves in the other foot too!
For if the result that is returned in Scotland is an ‘Out’ vote (or even if ‘In’ wins by a lowly 51% or 52%), they will have damaged their case for arguing for a 2nd Referendum. Simply, a ‘Remain’ victory in Scotland must be seen to be convincing in the percentages if the argument for a 2nd Referendum is going to be held.
Any attempt to argue a 2nd Referendum based on a ‘Remain’ vote that is barely over 50% will have the Conservatives (and every Unionist) sneering in absolute contempt. For those independence minded Scots who are voting for an ‘Out’ vote are literally damaging the case for a 2nd Referendum. So in a sense, there’s the first case of one shooting themselves in the foot.
The second is a more nasty surprise that is possibly waiting in the wings. Should ‘Out’ win, then Cameron and Osborne are toast. They’re gone …and in their place comes Boris, Gove and IDS. Literally the most fascist looking BritNat Tory Party that the United Kingdom has ever seen.
And when Scots finally cotton on that the ‘Out’ vote has initiated the Tory government from hell (that makes Cameron and Osborne look like fair-minded liberalised idealists), any cries for a 2nd Referendum from Scotland will be laughed out the room within Westminster.
Simply because Boris will hold up the results of the ‘Out’ vote from Scotland and tell us to behave. A lowly 50-55% is not enough to argue the case for a 2nd Referendum. It has to be around 60% and above to really state that Scotland has a case. It is at this point, that many Independence minded people who voted ‘Out’ will begin to realise that they have also just shot themselves in the other foot too!
And when the Tories such as Boris, Gove and IDS begin to make changes to working laws, workers rights …even their freedoms, then in there lies the third whammy. Literally, people who have voted ‘Out’ will be seen as turkeys having voted for Christmas …and for a good many Tories …such a scenario would not only look like Christmas arrived early, but that all their Christmases arrived at once.
For those who are thinking of voting ‘Out’, I would be very careful and thinking seriously about the political consequences of where you place that ‘X’ on that voting card. You may end up crucifying us all…
For me, put simply, I have seen many good things come to Scotland from the EU.
In contrast, I have seen many very bad things come to Scotland from Westminster.
Hence my choice of which union to retain and which to ditch.
Is that simple enough for KF?
@ Joe Kinnear
Sturgeon (an increasingly unimpresive figure imho)
Yes, the woman who is only 50th in the Forbes list of the world’s most powerful women is pretty unimpressive.
And the “politically maladriot” SNP romp home at every election vastly more popular than any other party. Their ratings are higher than any other political party or leader by a vast margin.
With only 63 Holyrood MSPs and 56 Westminster MPs where did it all go wrong?
schrodingers cat@5.15
What JLT and Ghillie say, I think we know which union is preferable and what it means for Scotland if too many are duped into voting out, while hoping for Indyref2. It just won’t work like that, Scotland needs to vote to stay.
Scotland’s decision to Leave or Remain in the EU should be taken on our own terms, as an independent nation, when we can clearly see the benefits or otherwise of *our* membership.
As we are not yet independent, the question currently being asked is ‘do you want Westminster to increase its power over Scotland?’.
Any *genuine* independence supporter voting Leave is making a serious mistake IMO.
Re;Taranaich@4.55
I think you mean in your 3rd paragraph, that is ‘exactly what would happen with a Leave’ vote, given the context of the rest of your comment?
@Glamaig
Quite right, the UK and that includes Scotland obviously is subject to a great deal of EU legislation. How much is debatable as even a research paper for the House of Commons admits.
link to researchbriefings.parliament.uk
My point is if we do leave the EU all that law then becomes under the control of a Tory government. Human Rights, Employment Law, etc. etc.
Just imagine putting this in the control of Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. Frightening? I think so.
If you think the UK is dysfunctional now, then think again. You aint seen nothing yet.
Argh, you’re quite correct, ArtyHetty, I did indeed mean a “Leave” vote.
Basically, I’m going in from the point of view that Better Together promised us that we would stay in the EU after a referendum. Voting Remain holds them to that promise: if they break it with Brexit, then that’s yet another broken promise. Voting Leave will just mean we let them off.
@Robert Sutherland
“whereas in fact they are more likely to be Vote Leave con artists just trying it on with WoS. And not really interested in yer actual facts, alas.”
Insulting rubbish, I and other Eurosceptics in this thread were Wings count agents at IndyRef. Your ridiculous statement just because we don’t agree with your views on the way ahead for our country is pathetic. If I wasn’t more polite I’d tell you to fuck off.
@ Rev says at 12:40pm …. “He’s either lying or the stupidest man ever to get a job as a professional political analyst with a serious newspaper.”
Simplified to “He’s a stupid liar getting paid to write a load of old tripe.”
I don’t know how you can bear (well I do know) to read through so much garbage day after day Stu and wondering if we should start fund-raising to pay for your own personal in-house therapist?
…………………………………………….
@ Tam Jardine says @ 12:28pm …… ‘Nicola playing a blinder’.
Ha, ha, ha! Yeah spot on TJ. I’d been thinking along the same lines too.
…………………………………………….
So many people seem to think that a Brexit won’t result in a successful Indyref2. It’s not the result that counts on the day per se, imo, but what happens down south, over time, following such a vote: Boris in charge and Engerland imploding between one, a multitude, thing and another. I’m sure that Boris et al will manage to skunner another 5% plus Scots to vote yes in future. Add to that numbers from the 60% of immigrants who voted no previously and some of the 76% of no voting rUK relocators.
Anyway I’m moving on and wondering how much ‘rental’ we can charge for housing Trident until such time as they resite the obscenity down south (never of course) …… or return it to the old US of A.
@Jim McIntosh
Hello Jim, I can only surmise that you are referring to the posts by Tartan Tory where he stated in his post at 3:17
“I was there as a Referendum Agent for Wings in 2014”
Well I too was there and can back up his statement, but the thing that was bothering me was you have implied that you and
“other Eurosceptics in this thread were Wings count agents at IndyRef”.
Tartan Tory as far as I can see in his original post did not say he was a Eurosceptic, his concern was going for a second Independence referendum on the back of a Brexit. Two different things.
Anyway, you do want you think is right as I will. As far as I’m concerned all Eurosceptics and Europhiles are welcome as long as they support Independence.
In fact it’s positively healthy that Independence supporters disagree on many things.
@ JLT at 5:17pm ……
Excellent post JLT. Excellent read especially for those who are ‘undecided’.
Home Office announces England fans arrested in Marseille for fighting are coming home, they’re coming home, they’re coming…
snigger
Hi Dr Jim (and Bob Mack).
Tartan Tory is certainly NOT Murdo Fraser! He WAS the Wings Referendum Agent for the Angus count at Arbroath – I was part of his team – and he has the VERY limited edition badge to prove it.
link to sites.google.com
Also, here’s a pic of his rally car, at the side of the Wings stand, at Arbroath Seafest in August 2014.
link to sites.google.com
Expression of opinions is what below-the-line is about on Wings. Healthy debate an’ a’ thah’.
I will never walk down the same path as the bigots ( Vote Leave)
I want a 2nd Referendum. A strong Remain vote may provide that opportunity.
I actually believe that the EU will be reformed into an effective force for good.
I want to retain the legal protection for my Human Rights
I want to retain workers rights that the Tories will remove if given the freedom to do so.
I only object to pooling and sharing with the wealthy South of England because it is taken unlike the intent behind the EU budget. A principal that would have helped Scotland but for the “Westminster Opt Out” that kept the money in their hands.
Westminster is the problem NOT Europe.
…so I will vote Remain!
@tris says: 10 June, 2016 at 11:54 am:
“They should ask him to write shorter stuff. 1,100 words is far too much for him. Briefs would be fine.”
Briefs. Tris?
Nah! Kenny’s normal writing has always just been pants.
I wonder if a Brexit followed by an extremist right wing Tory government let by Boris “pound in Croydon” Johnson would be enough for some of the remaining Labour politicians to back Scottish independence as a means of escape.
@Brian Doonthetoon
Nice one.
Here’s a link to a few more photos from that day.
link to s804.photobucket.com
Doug Daniel,
“I’m convinced the likes of Kenny are making a concerted effort to make SNP voters vote Leave.”
It is their agenda to do everything possible to reduce SNP support and or damage the SNP government and leadership.
Did we not cover this before? In order to trade with the EU, you have to meet their requirements and regulations. That includes having to pay for them.
As a member of the EU, the UK has a voice and a vote as an equal to change and amend them.
Outside of the EU, you have no voice, no vote and you still have to chip in for the bill.
It’s like having to pay for a place at a work’s night out after you’ve left the company and you’re not allowed to attend.
@Clootie
Seems about right. 🙂
More importantly though, I don’t want to have this conversation forced on us. I want the Scottish electorate to debate the pros and cons after having experienced dealing with the entity first hand for themselves.
Will there be a difference? How much of one? More or less advantageous? Our experience has always been second hand with deals made ‘on our behalf’.
Let’s talk to the organ grinder, not the monkey and see which way the wind blows. 🙂
@Thepnr 6:54
Your Make my point better than I did. Robert in his post was insinuating that posters on this thread who were showing a preference for ‘leave’ were somehow trying to undermine WoS and were not real Yessers.
My point in bringing up the referendum agent aspect was to show how wrong he was (I was at Buckie by the way). Brexiters (I hate the term by the way) on this site are just as dedicated to Indy as he is. That’s the reason I said we should not conflate the two referenda, and quoted from @Marko’s earlier post.
Cheers.
If anyone genuinely believes that whilst Scotland is part of the UK it’s best interests lie outside the EU then by all means vote Leave. If that’s what I thought then that’s how I’d vote.
The only thing I’d advise against is voting Leave whilst hoping for an overall Remain result in Scotland.
If the result is a genuine reflection of the mix of feelings regarding EU membership in independence an unionist voters in Scotland that’ll be harder to ignore than a tactical bid at setting the scene for a call for a second referendum.
please can we have a thumbs up system ,it takes me a week to read all they comments
cheers
@Jim McIntosh
I care naught for the EU Referendum other than in the context of Scottish Independence. I will vote Remain and hope that the rest we Scots vote massively for Remain and that UK minus Scotland vote to leave and ass a result of the Scottish vote we don’t leave.
I foresee very many pissed off people, let’s call it a crisis.
Nothing like a good crisis to waken up the proletariat LOL 🙂
No comments so far on radio englishire’s QT tonight from Edinburgh. It was as loaded against scotland as I’ve heard in yonks surpassing the crap I occasionally tune into inadvertently in radio shortbread.
Tasmina did well up against the unionists Murray ,Micky Forsyth, and some dame who writes for a money magazine and somehow turns up regularly in these formats to denigrate Scotland.
It will be repeated tomorrow afternoon (make sure you have a sick bag handy if you are unfortunate enough to listen) followed by listener’s comments which I can guarantee will be dominated by the inane question about queenies longevity.
Got my wee black books today Rev,many thanks and look forward to distributing them
Sadly it seems beyond the political imagination of many SNP fanboys (and girls) that one can be pro Scottish independence and intensely dislike the EU. And my reasons for being anti-EU are from the left. If massive youth unemployment, widespread malnutrition in Greek society and a contempt for democracy (if a nation votes against an EU treaty in a referendum then they can vote again etc.) is “progressive” then you really are speaking a different political language to me.
What I find uncomfortable about the SNP is its lack of pluralism or internal debate. It’s tipping into a personality cult. Alex (or Nicola) said the Euro was the best thing ever last week and so it was, but this week it’s a Sterling currency union and so it is, and next week it’s God knows what (without rhyme or reason seemingly). That’s not a healthy mindset for a mass democratic movement.
And on the pragmatics of the issue we are near to peak SNP. To win the independence cause guess what you have to appeal to biddable Unionists that might not want to live in SNP land.
Unthinking loyalty to the Labour Party deformed Scottish political life for decades, let’s not make the same mistake with the SNP. I will never want anything other than an independent Scotland but that does not imply a ‘blank cheque’ to the SNP – nor should it.
Dismiss me as a troll – how could I prove otherwise to those of that mindset? – or perhaps moving beyond the “SNP goooooooooooood” cliched response might be a sign of intellectual maturity?
latest poll
Remain 45% (-4)
Leave 55% (+4)
@Joe Kinnear
What I find uncomfortable about the SNP is its lack of pluralism or internal debate. It’s tipping into a personality cult. Alex (or Nicola) said the Euro was the best thing ever last week and so it was, but this week it’s a Sterling currency union and so it is, and next week it’s God knows what (without rhyme or reason seemingly). That’s not a healthy mindset for a mass democratic movement.
Who cares?
Your here just making shit up, I care about Independence.
Are you a Unionist journalist who is just pissed off at being made a fool of?
Sorry, but I can see the following…
Scotland votes 68% Remain, while UK votes 53% Leave.
Tory Majority Govt. at Westminster refuses to pass the Bill necessary for Holyrood to hold a ‘legal’ and binding referendum. Scottish Govt. then decides to hold a ‘Consultative’ ballot instead. Court challenge by Yoons follows and after a delay of several months the ballot takes place but is boycotted by the Yoons, enabling Westminster to ignore the result.
Scotland is yanked out of the EU.
Someone tell me this can’t/won’t happen, please…
Joe Kinnear,OK.
After Indy then policy diffs. can be argued over.
Oh aye, Proof positive Britain needs Scotland more than Scotland needs Blighty an at. At robertknight 12.40 in the mornin.
goodnight
Rev, thanks so much for making me read through that vitriolic diatribe of Yoonyin dribble. A summary would have sufficed. The only ones of us that will believe that are knuckle draggers, pay an international popstar to support SNP will sway them…
People like Farqharson talk as if there’s some mystery as to why Scottish people are overwhelming more in favour of remaining in the EU than the English are. Is it not obvious to them that someone who is sceptical of Westminster centralisation is obviously going to be against it having MORE power?
Is this not obvious?
I listened to the answers on the first question on radio 4s Question time, and I just couldn’t listen to any more of the nonsense from Forsyth, Murray and whoever the woman was who writes for a money Magazine.
Given the level of applause for Forsyth and Murray it would seem the audience contained a fair amount of unionists.
I really do despair at much of the ‘reasoning’ on the Remain side. It’s all framed as some weird identity contest in order to avoid being on the side of the “bad guys” seemingly with no concern for the actual issues at stake nor critical thought about first principles. Hence Sturgeon’s lightweight act of screeching “Tory bàaaaaaaaaaaaaaaàaaaaaaaaaàaad” is enough for many SNP supporters (ignoring she’s on the same side as Cameron and Osbourne).
Incidentally I researched the ITV debate and at one point the democratic fallings of the EU came up.
Sturgeon’s response was (to paraphrase) – it’s a bit rich to be lectured on the lack of democracy in the EU when we have the unelected House of Lords here.
Now what is the possible implications of such a statement?
(1) By avoiding discussion of the EUs lack of democratic accountability I (Sturgeon) do not give a flying fuck about the issue and
(2) why be bothered by that lack of democratic accountability in the EU because we have the House of Lords so two undemocratic wrongs make a democratic right.
Seriously if Sturgeon represents the most intellectually rigourous advocate for Scottish independence then the cause is on shakey ground.
And it’s no good saying she’s much better than other Scottish political leaders – that is such a low criterion of quality control as to be meaningless.
I’ll leave folks to their circle jerk in peace now.
Re-watched not researched automatic spell checker at work there!
“geordie beattie says:
10 June, 2016 at 9:27 pm
please can we have a thumbs up system ,it takes me a week to read all they comments cheers”
Agreed. And an Off Topic forum. Long overdue.
‘I really do despair at much of the ‘reasoning’ on the Remain side.’
Because Nigel Farage makes so much sense presumably..
Hi Grendel.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
“I’m Joe Kinnear” ,
“I’m joking, here/hear”
Some people are cursed with a name that defines their lives.
‘(1) By avoiding discussion of the EUs lack of democratic accountability I (Sturgeon) do not give a flying fuck about the issue and’
Take one sentence that Nicola Sturgeon uttered in a quick fire ‘show’ debate on the telly and make out the she does ‘not give a flying fuck about the issue’. That’s a pretty damning level of low intellectual rigour on your part right there if you consider your boast: ‘I researched the ITV debate and at one point the democratic fallings of the EU came up.’
‘(2) why be bothered by that lack of democratic accountability in the EU because we have the House of Lords so two undemocratic wrongs make a democratic right.’
Boris and his leave crowd were/are citing this ‘undemocratic’ situation in Brussels as a reason to leave, she merely ‘pointed’ to the fallacy of this as a reason for leaving when we have nearly 900 unelected Lords in the UK, so the point she was making is ‘valid’ in the context of what was actually being touted. You cannot seriously cite this lack of democratic accountability in the EU context whilst that same lack of democratic accountability is entirely supported by you in a UK context…she merely highlighted a deception in his reasoning on this point.
None of this supports your supposition that Nicola Surgeon is somehow bereft of understanding of the ‘issues at stake nor critical thought about first principles’.
Your post was just a wee ‘Nicola Sturgeon baaaaad’ rant:
‘Sturgeon was on the telly and didn’t say what I wanted to hear her say but this one thing she did say prove’s she’s crap. So everybody who thinks she’s great is wrong because look at that one thing she did say on the telly, see…that prove’s she’s crap’.
I can see you prefer the hand jive to the circle jerk yersel’, your emissions are duly noted.
Is that the informed voice of the 55% i read there, whats the matter yoons just figured out what we are up to.
Maybe we should play along and see how long it takes the Remain tory trolls to turn up lol
A quick visit to the SNP website will show there is a huge swell of party members who are discontent with the current stance on the EU.
Joe Kinnear may not agree with many people here in terms of the EU vote and he will doubtless have his reasons for this. However, I’ve seen nothing in what he has posted on this thread to warrant some of the jibes being dished-out here and I’m saddened that an independence supporting poster should be treated in this manner.
Voting OUT of the EU, or disagreeing with the a party line for personal reasons, is not a basis for being called-out as a yoon in my books.
I wish some people would take time to read what’s actually being said, rather than skimming over the words, jerking their knees and typing the first nonsensical insult that enters their heads.
Independence is not the sole preserve of totally compliant (unthinking) SNP members. There are a good number of members who are capable of self-reasoning and there are YES voters who are not SNP members.
Manufactured grievances and toxic fantasies of victimhood are being being used to manipulate English nationalist sentiment to promote a global corporate agenda.
It’s Project Fear Squared:
link to moflomojo.blogspot.com
[…] I cannot stress enough, the most important consideration for me is which option takes us closer to Scottish independence. And on this, I have to say, my party’s leaders have not been entirely helpful in assisting me towards a conclusion. … So Brexit is the fastest route to a second indyref, and the fastest route to ditching the UK. Surely, then, we as committed Nationalists should be in favour of Brexit? Logical? Apparently not. – The Times […]