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Wings Over Scotland


The constant revision of memory

Posted on April 21, 2016 by

We’ve noted on numerous occasions previously that one of this site’s prime functions is merely to remember things – to serve as a repository of fact which can be referred to when politicians or the media try to mislead people about what happened in the past. It was a thought we were struck by again on reading The Times this morning.

kfmanif

Because as we beheld Kenny Farquharson’s account of the SNP’s manifesto launch, and how its emphasis on the word “RE-ELECT” was unfamiliar and “very different” to their last Holyrood manifesto launch, we were sure that wasn’t how we recalled it.

So we checked.

reelect1

reelect2

reelect4

reelect5

reelect3

Yeah. Yeah, that’s pretty much what we thought.

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    418 to “The constant revision of memory”

    1. Golfnut says:

      Fashion correspondent’s like Kenny should stick to what they are good at, because it sure isn’t history or politics.

    2. katherine hamilton says:

      Ha Ha. I’ve always marvelled at your filing system! On another note on the article. The opening sentences I think seemed to be trying for sarcasm. Reads like jealously to me. Can’t lay a finger on her.

    3. bobajock says:

      Remember, the English Yoons never really see Scotland (saw I should say). Now that they have to look its a bit disconcerting for them to have to remember something they never examined before.

      While being spoon fed the platitudes of the Yoon Red/Yellow/Blue Tories, they forget that someone else might carry a different message.

      I’m far more excited about the coming Labour offering for Scotland. London will have their best (one) working on it for sure and Kezia will be memorizing it as I type.

      But damn, I’m sure Labour will offer a bigger box for babies, paid for by PFI. They will offer ‘Green’ – planting some daffodils. They will push for rail changes – PFI rail carriage purchases.

    4. desimond says:

      Never let facts get in the way of bullshit

    5. Chitterinlicht says:

      Ha ha ha

      you honestly could not make this stuff up!

      #elephantman

    6. Doug Daniel says:

      “Re-elect” is also appearing on election addresses and leaflets across the country, even in instances where the person claiming to want to be “re-elected” isn’t even the current incumbent, such as Lewis Macdonald in Aberdeen Central, who is only a list MSP, but wants people in the constituency to “re-elect” him.

      (Unfortunately for him, the vast majority of the voters here are planning to tell him to get knotted.)

    7. Dervheid says:

      GOLDFISH seem to possess better memories and cognitive functions. But I guess that’s what they’re relying on in their readership when they sprinkle a few flakes of “SNPBAD” on the pond water: unquestioning consumption.

    8. Ruglonian says:

      ‘A repository of fact’ – new tagline?

      (You know it’d drive some certain folk nuts!:D )

    9. Grouse Beater says:

      I don’t know if Stuart has ever been in the company of journalists and editors, including those working in television, but I have. I am often.

      They refer to the SNP only by using profanity, shouting obscenities, greet any defence of Scotland’s only dedicated political party with derisory laughter and ridicule.

      In short, they detest the SNP.

      In fact, it’s the only time they show any emotion when Scotland is mentioned because on all other occasions they don’t give a toss about Scotland.

      Believe me, I mix with them, and in the fine arts too. Big wigs, executives, producers, newspaper editors, they all think Scotland should shut the f**k up.

      Don’t say I didn’t tell you.

    10. Bawheid Bragg says:

      ‘Very American’…as is the two-party, binary political choice system which Scotland has bucked.

    11. Remember “Bounce Back With Labour” and all their historical lies?

    12. annie says:

      I wonder if he’ll get a bollocking from someone about this or is the fact he’s a massive yoon get him off the hook. The standard of journalism and journalists in the Scottish press is dire.

    13. Luigi says:

      katherine hamilton says:

      21 April, 2016 at 10:00 am

      Ha Ha. I’ve always marvelled at your filing system! On another note on the article. The opening sentences I think seemed to be trying for sarcasm. Reads like jealously to me. Can’t lay a finger on her.

      Aye, it’s very impressive. All thanks to WoS. What has struck me is the sheer volume of bullshit generated by those self-appointed guardians of freedom, those seekers of the truth (Ha!), the British yoon media. These so-called journalists are chronic bullshitters at best, compulsive liars at worst. You have to give them some cred, however – they are consistent!

      If it wasn’t for the Rev’s amazing recording system (and the spread of social media), these jokers would still be getting away with it. No place to hide now. I guess Rev Campbell won’t be on their Christmas card lists. 🙂

    14. Luigi says:

      “Publish and be damned as the old saying goes.

      Well, if they publish bullshit, they will be damned.

      Hell mend em.

    15. heedtracker says:

      Even his “how very American, this whole re-elect slogan” is awful too. Tawdry UKOK hackdom farts out another day of SNPbad, vote red and blue tory bullshit, in their Scotland region. How very British.

    16. Mike says:

      Re: The Rev’s filing system
      Some time ago you added a wee video of the Cairnstoon process showing how Chris went about creating those marvellous pieces of satire.

      Would it be possible to do something that showed the Rev’s thought process.

      1. trawl yoon propaganda
      2. get pissed off
      3. (the important bit) break down the nonsense, access the legendary wings database and destroy yoon ramblings
      4. Publish on Wings
      5. Feed the rats and take pictures of random bits of Bath while eating a magnum.

    17. Hugh Barclay says:

      “Wipe the slate clean” subtle but also bollocks.

    18. Capella says:

      The first two paragraphs are good. Any chance of us plebs being able to see a video of Nicola in her Totty Rocks red suit reminiscent of a gentleman’s dinner jacket?
      He is an excellent fashion correspondent.

    19. heedtracker says:

      Red tory The Graun’s either SNPbad or Scotland doesn’t exist but its a billionaire’s birthday, who threatened Scotland if we voted YES, but is entirely above UKOK politics. So grovellers and hypocrites of the Graun dump this in their normally empty scotland section. Makes you proud of our noble tax dodger press it does

      https://archive.is/BwY5C

      Fake progressive liberalism in action, UKOK style.

    20. Big Jock says:

      If only thon yoons could sit in awe of one of their leaders!

    21. Dr Jim says:

      These “Journalists” who constantly carp on about the SNP, keep turning up to all the events, if they don’t like it don’t go

      They might argue that it’s their job to report on issues of the day, but of course they don’t do that do they

      They scribble down words that were never said or pervert those that were, so why do they go?

      Are they masochists? Their misrepresentations of facts could fill comics and at least entertain us all, their attempts to misreport events is caught out by Wings and others to the point of total embarrassment which has turned them into the laughing stock they are

      Today they compare the SNP manifesto launch to that of an American style occasion with their usual sniggering venomous sarcasm yet not one of them makes the same criticism of the “Ruth Davidson for not another referendum party” which has no sign anywhere of Conservative and Unionist Party written on any logo whereas the SNP does

      One can only conclude it must be only jealousy that drives them to attend these events en masse to stew in the fact that their own choice parties are just rubbish at putting on events

      Although it could be the “drink”

      Coulda saved myself all that there writing couldn’t I

    22. Lorraine Stuart says:

      At election times, Scottish Labour always wipe the slate clean, industriously. They also wipe their brains and their public record and feel delightfully free to say anything they like.

    23. Giving Goose says:

      Grouse Beater

      Are these Scottish journalists and media types and, in your opinion, why are they like this?
      What, in your opinion, is going on in their minds and how do they see the world (i.e. Scotland’s place)?

      I’d be very interested to see what you think.

    24. Macart says:

      Ayup, I’ve noticed that most commentators in the meeja have a selective memory disorder.

      Poor dears. 🙄

    25. Socrates MacSporran says:

      It is a weel-kent, and acknowledged fact, the one thing a good liar needs is a very good memory – or, like the Rev (not as far as I know a liar), a great filing system.

      Unfortunately, one of the things the owners of the BUM have slashed is the filing systems, and, hacks such as Farquharson are so far up their own arses, their memories have gone.

      I used to have a nice wee sports desk gig on The Scotsman, back during Wee Eck’s period of exile in Westminster. At the time, Eck had a Friday horse racing column in the paper and, on occasions, when up in Edinburgh, he would pop in and write his column on the sports desk – when he could get peace from the attentions of the High Heid Yins, anxious to be seen in the presence.

      Brillo Pad Neil would come over to be seen with Eck, ditto the likes of Kenny boy. Eck ha little time for them, simply wanting to get his column filed, although, he did occasionally pop across to the pub with the boys, once first edition had gone and we had the break before setting-to on second edition.

      Farquharson – would never have been tagged: “Good Guy” in the old Chewin’ the Fat sketch.

    26. Jimbo says:

      Farquharson is shouting into the wind.

      How many of Scotland’s people will hear what he has to say, far less pay attention to it?

    27. CmonIndy says:

      Biff! Kapow! Wallop! and Farquarson exits stage right.

    28. Free Scotland says:

      People like him give the Farquharsons a bad name.

    29. cearc says:

      Doug Daniel,

      ‘… “re-elected” isn’t even the current incumbent,’

      Or even in the same party!

      Greens have ‘re-elect John Finnie’ on the ballot paper!

    30. CmonIndy says:

      Greens seem to be impressed (relatively speaking) with SNP manifesto. E.g. see Bella.

    31. heedtracker says:

      One can only conclude it must be only jealousy that drives them to attend these events en masse to stew in the fact that their own choice parties are just rubbish at putting on events

      Tory press have ofcourse always been ridiculous on non tory stuff. if youre old enough to mind, people like Shirley Williams were relentlessly monstered by Murdoch and co for their looks and their clothes. You see, in torboy teamGB, you put on a proper suit, do up your tie, sing the national anthem, vote toryboy.

      Its probably not a coincidence that noble UKOK media are some of histories greatest perverts though.

    32. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Re-Elect”.

      Sounds like a good idea to me.

      SNP x 2

    33. tamson says:

      This is the single biggest way the Internet has crippled media power. There is no memory hole to discard the old version of the truth in anymore.

    34. Page 15 of the National today. Bottom right hand corner. A little piece of genius to treasure.

    35. velofello says:

      let’s be kind, and consider that possibly Mr Farquarson doesn’t have a filing system, and he has a poor memory. On the otherhand, maybe fiction rather report writing is his forte.
      And then there is truth, fairness and integrity to consider.

      I read this morning that the Mother of Parliaments (fiction?) has dropped the investigation on Carmichael, on a “technicality”. The technicality seems to go something like – ” The misdemeanour occurred in situation A, and since the accused was by then in situation B,
      we cannot pursue the matter, although the accused is now back in situation A.
      And then there is truth, fairness, and integrity to consider.

    36. cearc says:

      Stu,

      re Mike @10.28, What’s happened to ‘strolling with Stuey’? I used to enjoy the pics of the place where I briefly lived and got married in over 40 years ago.

      Spring is here you need to get out more.

    37. galamcennalath says:

      Dead tree entities like the Times are not Scottish, and very very few of their readers are Scottish.

      However, they have the cheek to produce re-badged versions with a few crumbs about Scotland, as Scottish ‘editions’.

      It is rarely clear which content is UK, and which Scotland only. And therefore, who is the target audience. If the audience is UK then the agenda will be quite different.

      My reaction is this must be targeting a southern readership with the agenda of painting Scotland as being in the grip of of some sort of dictatorship. Few Scots, even Unionists, will see things that way inside Scotland.

    38. Grouse Beater says:

      Giving Goose: “These Scottish journalists and media types – in your opinion, why are they like this?

      I include heads of national museums and art galleries. Many are not Scots. They’re guilty of the cringe. They hold to the myth we are a province. They may harbour ambition beyond Scotland and so see their native country as second best. Telling them Scotland can be first rate, examples they can see and hear, invariably activates their insecurities.

      I call that an inferiority complex.

      There are lots of reason for their animosity. Perhaps it’s because they’re life-long Labour or Tory supporters and see their clan’s strength challenged, dissipated, their opportunity for enhancement evaporate. After all, they have dedicated years to associating with one attitude only. That it harms their own nation is of no concern.

      If English, naturally they care only about their own culture. I don’t have a beef about that. I get annoyed when they subjugate or side line Scottish culture yet demand loyalty to the United Kingdom as if it’s England.

      I call that colonial arrogance.

    39. Proud Cybernat says:

      Kenny Farquharson – rotty talks. (See what I did there).

      Taxi for one!

    40. Free Scotland says:

      Farquharson uses the word “activists.” Why? How does he know they were activists?

      And then he uses the word “journalists.” Why? How does he know they were journalists? And he says there were a hundred of them. Did he count them? More importantly, did he count himself as one of them. If so, he should really re-publish his shabby wee article to clarify that there was a mixture of journalists and second-rate hacks.

    41. Sinky says:

      Socrates@ 10.44

      I first came across Kenny F whilst campaigning in 1992 when his dislike of the SNP was obvious then and has never changed.

      Hootsman’s letter column is now laughable just like the Daily Mail with a constant barrage of SNP bad letters from the usual mainly Labour supporting clique.

    42. Andrew McLean says:

      Grouse Beater @10:10

      It would be remiss of me to say not all,I personally know two editors one in each of the print media broadsheets who are actually SNP supporters one for over 20 years, obviously they don’t advertise the fact.

    43. Sinky says:

      And for Alan Roden

      http://www.snp.org/record

    44. Dan Huil says:

      Well remembered, Rev. We won’t forget how desperate and duplicitous the britnat media has become.

    45. Grouse Beater says:

      Andrew MacLean: “obviously they don’t advertise the fact.”

      Have they something to lose greater than their nation’s democracy?

    46. Les Wilson says:

      Doug Daniel says:

      Doug, your early post made me laugh, made a bright morning brighter! It’s the way you say them!!

    47. Brotyboy says:

      @Doug Daniel

      Jenny Marra trying the same stunt in Dundee West.

    48. Les Wilson says:

      Rev as every you are on the ball. Another Yoon quack, stuffed again.

    49. Andrew McLean says:

      Grouse

      I can’t condemn a journalist working and keeping his head down, especial the climate of redundancy.

      Principals are great as long as you don’t then have to go back home and explain to your wife and child that you are on the dole because you were labelled a troublemaker.

      This might surprise you but there are some absolute nut jobs who are in positions of authority in the press, so I know for a fact, better to be inside changing what you can than outside having no effect whatsoever.

      “Watch out for the normal people
      There’s more of us than there’s of you.
      Well you’re a really lucky bugger,
      That you haven’t been discovered
      Ain’t that true.”

      🙂

    50. Les Wilson says:

      Grouse Beater says:

      Yes Grouse,
      they are at the heart of all our institutions, mostly in prominent positions. Why, hmmm, make of that what you will.

    51. Almannysbunnet says:

      Kenny clearly has a hidden talent as a gossip columnist. He should get a job in OK magazine. Either that or someone got their headlines crossed.

      “Adoring subjects sit in mute awe of their dear leader.” Surely that should have been for Bettie’s ninetieth.

      Very telling to see bitter Kenny exposing his innermost thoughts. You can almost see his fingers slipping off his spittle flecked keyboard as he hits the keys harder and harder.

    52. Jim Mitchell says:

      The Labour candidate Gordon Banks was using it here two General Elections ago.

    53. Andrew McLean says:

      Almannysbunnet says:

      Aye then he stops abusing himself, grabs a soiled hanky clears his search history and goes back to work, yuck!

    54. Bob Mack says:

      How about. ” Labour’s not working”. It was never truer.

    55. G H Graham says:

      I believe “The Times” sells less than 19,000 print copies daily in Scotland.

      Source: http://tinyurl.com/h44jvzw

      If correct, that’s a 1.7% share of all print sales here so it seems reasonable to conclude that what zoomer Farquharson says is little more than proBritNat jingoistic waffle which almost nobody reads.

      For sure, some readers may be accessing the title’s reticent on-line content possibly to counter their salacious indulgences, courtesy of the celebrity nubile tit fest & scepter’d isle mud slinging at the “Daily Mail”.

      Nevertheless, Farquharson will surely be delighted with “Wings”, having had his puerile musings exposed to a much wider audience than he has recently been used to.

      This incidentally, is fine example of the “Law of Unintended Consequences.”

    56. Phil Robertson says:

      “We’ve noted on numerous occasions previously that one of this site’s prime functions is merely to remember things ”

      Good stuff.

      Then I am sure you will remember writing last November about Labour’s tax plans, “One is to avoid a planned Tory increase in the thresholds for higher tax rates. But that has the same problem as cancelling the APD cut – it doesn’t generate any MORE money, it just avoids you losing any from your already-inadequate starting position.” you then go on to ridicule Kezia Dugdale’s suggestion that this might raise £100M.

      And then, yesterday, we have in the SNP manifesto ” Instead, we will freeze the higher rate threshold in 2017/18 and ensure that it will rise by a maximum of inflation until 2021/22. These measures will generate at least £1.2 billion in additional revenue over the next parliament.”

      So the same policy gets pelters from you when it’s proposed by Labour and hypocritical silence when it comes from the SNP.

    57. Robert Graham says:

      Regarding subjects that Tha article referes to , why do the media constantly refer to the Queen as Elisabeth ll try finding an ER ll postbox up here in jockland they were changed to a Scottish crown in 1954 after a few incidents of them being blown up , this is whole other story involving M l 5 that I suspect are actively involved in the current Election watch out for their dirty little on fingerprints over the coming weeks .

    58. carjamtic says:

      ‘De Jure Regni Apud Scotos’

      Why do yoons attack us, when they do not even have any agreement among themselves in their own parliament?

      Why are they so troubled, why do they complain, about Scotland’s people so much, when we have broken no laws, but merely continue steadfastly in our desire to re-gain Independence for our country?

      I challenge them to provide evidence that the people of Scotland are more dissenting than are the people of any other nation or that any other nation manages its disputes with more moderation than we do.

      Nor is the desire for Independence been driven by the dislike for any other nation, but out of love for our own country and desire to protect its laws.

      After much review of the facts, looking at the past, the present, the future, more and more of Scotland’s people are deciding that Scotland, re-gaining its Independence is the only satisfactory way in which Scotland’s people can have any influence/control over their lives or in their own futures.

      That’s Democracy, is that the problem?…we are too democratic!

      SNP X 2
      Indyref2

    59. G H Graham says:

      Off Topic

      Breaking news: The British government borrowed £74.0 billion in the year to March 2016, £1.8 billion more than George “Towel Folder” Osborne’s borrowing target.

      Public sector net debt jumped by £47.5 billion to £1.6 trillion which is 83.5% of gross domestic product.

      I’m now looking forward to the respectable British print media confirming that this is yet one more example of economic incompetence at the hands of the SNP.

    60. Andrew McLean says:

      Phil,
      to be fair there was a lot more wrong with the Labour tax proposals than that, 1 penny rise across all bands, then just the bottom two, then the local council giving us £100 but not all of us, who costed that? Labours tax plans were and still are incompetent, ineffectual and costly.

      whilst on the other hand?

      Phil when you try comparing Kezia’s primary accountancy skills with John Swinney’s first class record of economic prudence just makes you look silly.

    61. Dr Jim says:

      How do you win and lose at the same time

      We all compare, rationalise and keep presenting our evidence as we see it and Wings keeps pointing this stuff out yet the Yoons continue to bluster their way through distorting facts plotting different but the same ways of trying to show the SNP in as bad a light as possible

      All their energies seem to be dedicated to this cause, they wouldn’t care we were governed by chimps as long as it wasn’t the SNP but I might have come up with the answer, why not use the Yoons own argument, the one that they all, to a man and woman used on us

      You’re losing, get over it and move on

    62. Greannach says:

      Kenny Farquharson’s articles are usually pretty rigorous when he sticks to his forte. I particularly remember his incisive piece on the Best Iced Sponge competition at Botriphnie WRI in 1987. He only seems to flounder when he dabbles in subjects that are a bit complicated for him. Like politics.

    63. The Brutish journalist,

      You cannot hope
      to bribe or twist,
      thank God! the
      Brutish journalist.
      But, seeing what
      the man will do
      unbribed, there’s
      no occasion to.

      to think the Farquarson`s used to carry the Scottish standard into battle,

      this lickspittle hack betray`s the proud history of the Farquarson clan and its septs,

      the punishment for betraying your clan or family used to be branding the forehead with the name `Judas`,

      just sayin ken.

    64. heedtracker says:

      Phil Robertson says:
      21 April, 2016 at 11:47 am
      “We’ve noted on numerous occasions previously that one of this site’s prime functions is merely to remember things ”

      Good stuff.

      APD and PAYE are entirely different taxation issues. Also, SLab were particularly weird over not spending/spending/over spending etc APD.

      PAYE rising in 10% of UK economy would probably be a bad thing. Which is why the Smith Commission probably picked it and blocked corp tax control for Holyrood.

      Funny that Phil.

      So much for devo-max and federal UK what The Vow promised.

    65. Clootie says:

      Another LibDem PLEDGE broken. This time for money instead of power
      http://order-order.com/2016/04/21/farron-bankrolled-by-disgraced-rwanda-spinners/#disqus_thread

    66. ian says:

      We have all been swimming in this see of shit for most of our lives and got used to the smell.Thanks to the referendum and sites such as this we can smell it and are trying to get away from it.

    67. Phil Robertson says:

      Andrew McLean says:
      21 April, 2016 at 12:04 pm
      Phil,
      to be fair there was a lot more wrong with the Labour tax proposals than that

      But the vitriol was specifically directed at the use of money “raised” by not implementing tax cuts. You might want to address that rather than raising an irrelevancy.

    68. Clootie says:

      @greannach12:06

      …loved it!

    69. Auld Rock says:

      Bobajock – How can Kez be memorising something not written yet and also when it is it’s bound to change five minutes after writing.

    70. heedtracker says:

      Daily Heil hack says he left yesterday’s SNP manifesto launch feeling defiled. UKOK neo fascists are not very keen on democracy at all really.

    71. Returnofthemac says:

      A very accurate description from KF re Ms Sturgeon’s outfit at the launch yesterday. Who knows maybe the front cover of Vogue beckons.
      As someone once said “the world is her lobster” (Arfur Dailley, Minder)

    72. Phil Robertson says:

      heedtracker:
      “APD and PAYE are entirely different taxation issues. Also, SLab were particularly weird over not spending/spending/over spending etc APD.”

      You seem confused. APD and PAYE are indeed different taxes. The Labour proposal was about using money saved by not cutting APD and by not raising PAYE thresholds. The sum suggested was a modest £100M. The suggestion was strongly criticised on this website.

      The SNP’s manifesto steals one of those ideas, the PAYE one, to raise, they claim, a staggering £1.2B.

      What is missing is an explanation from yourself (or SC) of why it is a baaaad idea when proposed by Kezia Dugdale but unworthy of comment when proposed by Nicola Sturgeon.

    73. Andrew McLean says:

      Phil, 12:21
      no it wasn’t to quote the Rev

      “We’re starting to think that we could save ourselves an awful lot of trouble by only posting every other day. Obviously that’d reduce the workload in numerical terms, but also we could avoid the impossible task of having to keep track of Scottish Labour’s endless litany of U-turns, flip-flops and reverse ferrets on policy, which as far as we can make out appear to switch 180 degrees on alternating days”

    74. GrahamB says:

      URGENT WARNING

      Do NOT turn on your television today, especially not any British Boak Channel.

      The wee item in the bottom corner of Page 15 of The National is much more succint!

    75. ScottishPsyche says:

      This is why I like this site.

      Before WoS, if you came across a badly written, ignorant piece of journalism there was no redress. You had to fume silently or go through the pointless task of trying to get an apology or, at least, drawing attention to the flaws by writing to the organisation in question.

      Now, almost immediately that their nonsense goes into print, the charlatans of the MSM are exposed for what they are. They can indulge in self-congratulation and praise each other all they like but they cannot avoid scrutiny any longer and they absolutely hate it.

      On the Macleod piece, how can a Presbytarian fundamentalist accuse anyone of indoctrination? He even sets himself and the rest of the MSM as saviours of democracy by saying they are the only real opposition. I think he has overstepped his role somewhat.

    76. Andrew McLean says:

      Phil
      What will be Kezia’s employment options on May 6th?

      In May I suggest:

      She should be the driver in an articulated lorry
      She should be a poet, She wouldn’t need to worry
      She should be the teacher in a classroom full of scholars
      She should be the sergeant in a squadron full of wallahs

      She should be a lawyer with stratagems and muses
      She should be a doctor with poultices and bruises
      She should be a writer with a growing reputation
      She should be the ticket-man at Fulham Broadway station

      She should be the catalyst that sparks the revolution
      She should be an inmate in a long-term institution
      She should lead to wide extremes, She should do or die
      She should yawn and be withdrawn and watch them gullify

      ?

    77. Dan Huil says:

      Britnat journalists stirring up more anti-Scottish hatred. You’d almost think they’re doing it deliberately. And they really think they’re saving their so-called united kingdom?!

    78. Luigi says:

      Not much BBC coverage of the SNP manifesto launch yesterday. You would hardly know anything happened. It will be interesting to see if this lack of media interest extends to Labour’s manifesto launch next week.

      We are not being allowed to forget that it’s the Queen’s birthday today, however (90 years of benefits – must be a record). And if this wall-to-wall sycophantic nonsense wasn’t enough, here comes the postie with yet another personalised letter from the tank commander promising to defend the union (they are really pushing for Ruthie to be the opposition leader next month). Boak!

    79. Effijy says:

      Kenny ForF****sakeson,
      Liar, manipulator, shill,
      and Fashin correspondent .

      Fashion seems to be the only area that
      shows any degree of credibility?
      We could lose him to Littlewoods catalogue?

    80. yesindyref2 says:

      @Phil Robertson
      Nice try, had me going for a minute. You’re managing to forget we’re looking at Holyrood devolved Scotland policy.

      With APD the current situation is that it’s charged under Westminster, so if it’s continued to be charged under Holyrood, there’s no change, therefore no extra or less revenue. There’s no change from current inherited policy.

      With the higher rate threshold, the current situation is that it will rise under Westminster, so if it’s continued to be raised under Holyrood at the same rate as Westminster, then there’s no extra or less revenue. It’s the current inherited policy.

      But Swinney is going to freeze for 1 year, then only increase by the rate or inflation, this is a change of policy, therefore any difference in revenue raised is due to the policy, not the absence of policy, therefore generates extra or less revenue.

      In this case – extra revenue estimated to be £1.2 billion.

      Good try though!

    81. Peter Macbeastie says:

      Heedtracker, if it upsets the Daily Heil hack it’s obviously a very good idea.

      Maybe the total lack of swastikas made him feel as though he was in the unfriendly company, given the long association of the Heil with very, very right wing ideology.

    82. Grouse Beater says:

      Andrew: “Principals are great as long as you don’t then have to go back home and explain to your wife and child that you are on the dole because you were labelled a troublemaker.

      I expect to read that excuse.

      Think about it.

      You’re saying some people live in fear of losing their jobs or demotion if they espouse concern for their own country. And they do that even with an SNP administration governing us, one that could protect whistle blowers.

      Of course there are exceptions in high places who support self-governance. I could undermine all my arguments listing them so I don’t insult anybody.

      The point is, if we don’t care about our nation’s health no one south will. Being a secret supporter is craven. Staying silent turns us into fifth columnists – the last thing one can call honest and courageous.

      It isn’t an either or situation, where you tackle everything or nothing.

      You tackle it when confronted by it. There are various ways to do that between colleagues without being abusive. If they don’t respect you for your integrity, they probably didn’t in the first place.

    83. galamcennalath says:

      ian says:

      “We have all been swimming in this sea of shit for most of our lives …. we can smell it and are trying to get away from it.”

      There are three types of people in Scotland:-

      Those who have seen the reality of this corrupt Union and want out of it asap.

      Those who have yet to see the Union for what it is and have yet to realise there can be a better Scotland.

      And, those who know exactly what the Union is because they benefit from it. They despise those who now challenge London’s entitlement to rule. Their priority to prevent more of us concluding there is no entitlement.

    84. Clydebuilt says:

      Over at the National, Lesley Riddoch wants the SNP vote diminished. Not the action of a person who wants Independence for Scotland, IMHO.

    85. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2 12.44

      Just been catching up and you beat me to it. 🙂

    86. Effijy says:

      “There were 100 journalists”
      Working for the UK Nationals, you
      Could find enough “journalists” to
      rub them together.

      All we have is a rapidly evaporating
      sea of Shills desperate to sell democracy,
      and their country for some pieces of silver

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      @GrahamB
      Must admit it’s in the background as I type. The wife likes the monarchy even though she’s Irish. I don’t mind it either, as long as the bottom line is increased revenue due to increased toruism and retail sales equal or greater than expenditure.

      You should see the great british bake off cake. I could do better and I don’t bake. My wife can turn out way way better than that with her eyes shut. It’s bogging.

    88. ScottieDog says:

      @G H Graham,
      Whilst I like to rip George Osborne a new one over his predictable failing, I feel that fixating on the national debt increase actually feeds the neo-liberal myth I.e that govt debt is a problem.
      Gov debt (or the way that the UK gov accounts for its spending) composes of bonds which are effectively our savings.

      What the Tories have been feeding which really merits emergency attention, is the private debt bubble. It has now reached over £5 Trillion and we are close to the levels we saw in 2007. This is what the Tories have been pumping up over their tenure.

      Bonds can easily be bought up by the central bank, in fact they were in 2012 – £375 Billion worth by the Bank of England – making the national debt pretty much farcical.

      The Gov really doesn’t have much control over the deficit. Think of the deficit spending a bit like your radiator on frost setting. It will kick in to balance the temperature. Deficit spending works the same way – ‘automatic stabilisers’ as they are known, kick in when the money supply falls, due to too little private sector borrowing. Deficit spending prevents catastrophic depressions. They are necessary.

      Right now, we have far too much private debt. People need to be paying down their debt which means (as the SNP did propose in 2015) that deficit spending in the UK is TOO LOW.

      Private debt and gov debt are two very different things. The Tory (and majority labour belief since Callaghan) belief is that the two are the same and this is going to have catastrophic consequences. we are moving ever closer to a crisis which will make 2008 seem like a wet fart.

    89. Andrew McLean says:

      Grouse 12:46

      Have you not just proved my point?
      And please, please don’t take this the wrong way, I do have an enormous respect for you, but it’s funny having a conversation with you when you say your name is Grouse?

      And I am a fully trained 5 columnist so resent the insinuation I wasn’t courageous, those tank wheels wouldn’t count themselves you know!
      😉

    90. handclapping says:

      It used to be aspiring journalists had to do a stint in the courts where among other things they should have learnt that personal recollections can differ diametrically from reality.

      Time for KF to revisit his time as court reporter rather than bid for fashion editor?

    91. Iain says:

      Farquharson writes, correctly: “Sturgeon … was wearing a new red suit …”, but reverts – presumably through familiarity – to the clanking, illiterate misuse of the past tense in place of the participle in “100 journalists were sat …”.

      ‘Sitting’, Kenny, or you could use ‘seated’: both are participles. But not ‘sat’. You wouldn’t write “Sturgeon was wore a new red suit…”

      Notice: this despite his being a salaried journalist – indeed, a former editor. But given what he writes, what can you expect?

    92. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Luckily I was due a cup of tea and had kettle boiling and tea-bag brewing time to think about it!

    93. Calum McKay says:

      N’ doubt, Kenny and the other fine upstanding so called journalists will be hoping for a windsor bounce from the obsequiesque goings on there t’day.

      Kenny and his ilk are fine with an non elected or re-elected English queen as head of state for Scotland but they despise an elected and soon to be re-elected by the Scottish people, First Minister of Scotland, who is Scotish.

      Soon be time for Kenny and his pals to start a negative wave of news about Scotland being a one party state, albeit that being the people’s choice!

    94. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScottieDog
      I agree in part about the national debt as a total, the valid attack I think is on the deficit in a year compared to Osborne’s plan. In this case the extra deficit is “only” £1.8 billion, not much more than 2%, so not much of a fuss can be made of it. He was lucky, last month was a good one for him, and that’s luck not judgement.

      @Andrew McLean, @Grouse
      I watch columnists, and what I see at times is subtle attempts by the columnist to get a better message across to spoil the editorial line. But it can’t be easy, and they can’t go too far.

    95. Grouse Beater says:

      Andrew McLean: “Have you not just proved my point?”

      I’ve explained how to tackle the problem head on with colleagues, with humour, with questions, or when the need arises with anger when confronted by a fool or a racist. If you work among thieves, get another job, otherwise you’re life is one long miserable compromise.

      Keeping silent is self-imposed. Discussing, even biting back is better. Folk soon learn not to broach the subject in your company, or they ask for your point of view to see if all they have is empty propaganda.

      Using a pseudonym on essays stops people making a value judgement based on an erroneous or biased perception of one’s worth.

      An essay allows people to judge solely by argument, not by dress, height, what car one drives, or job specification.

      You do understand there’s a difference between daily life and a blog? What I do in daily life is different to what I write in an essay site read by thousands of people I’ve never met, not know of their integrity.

      My argument with your concern for the ‘silent oppressed’ is it’s kindness misguided.

    96. call me dave says:

      SNP ‘invincible’ and Labour to finish second, says betting firm backed by Salmond

      https://archive.is/A7dSH

      Aye right! Only if the voters vote for SNP X 2
      It’s not in the bag until Jackie Baillie sings.

      Lunch over catch up later.

    97. heedtracker says:

      Phil Robertson says:
      21 April, 2016 at 12:31 pm
      heedtracker:
      “APD and PAYE are entirely different taxation issues. Also, SLab were particularly weird over not spending/spending/over spending etc APD.”

      You seem confused. APD and PAYE are indeed different taxes. The Labour proposal was about using money saved by not cutting APD and by not raising PAYE thresholds. The sum suggested was a modest £100M. The suggestion was strongly criticised on this website.”

      Except that’s not true is it Phil. SLab were all over the shop with their APD spends, as you know full well. Baillie in particular made an historic fool of herself and SLab over APD.

      We get the opposition we dont deserve Phil. Thanks for displaying that, again.

    98. galamcennalath says:

      Iain says:

      “Notice: this despite his being a salaried journalist – indeed, a former editor. But given what he writes, what can you expect?”

      I’ve noticed that. The so called professionals who write/talk the most nonsense, do so using poor grammar!

      My grammar’s not perfect, but I’m not being paid to deliver accurate and precise language!

      TV presenters seem to have forgotten how to use ‘whom’. They wouldn’t say ‘to she’ or ‘to he’, they understand it is ‘to her’ or ‘to him’ … so why do they say ‘to who’?

      Then there is ‘an’ before ‘h’ words. I had it drummed into me in primary school that ‘an’ is only used with silent ‘h’, eg. ‘an honourable man’ and ‘a historic castle’.

      Today is a grumpy old man day grrr.

    99. kailyard rules says:

      O/T but…Happy Birthday to Iggy Pop , Anthony Quinn (belated) and James McAvoy.

    100. Phil Robertson says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      “Nice try, had me going for a minute. You’re managing to forget we’re looking at Holyrood devolved Scotland policy.”
      No, I am aware that all this has taken place post-referendum.

      “With APD the current situation is that it’s charged under Westminster, so if it’s continued to be charged under Holyrood, there’s no change, therefore no extra or less revenue. There’s no change from current inherited policy.”
      Other than to explain how the £200M shortfall in tax revenue will be made up.

      “With the higher rate threshold, the current situation is that it will rise under Westminster, so if it’s continued to be raised under Holyrood at the same rate as Westminster, then there’s no extra or less revenue. It’s the current inherited policy.”
      The current Westminster policy is to raise the threshold by more than inflation so, in real terms, mimicking it results in a (small) revenue decrease.

      “But Swinney is going to freeze for 1 year, then only increase by the rate or inflation, this is a change of policy, therefore any difference in revenue raised is due to the policy, not the absence of policy, therefore generates extra or less revenue.”
      Very similar to what KD proposed in November and was lambasted for on this site.

      “In this case – extra revenue estimated to be £1.2 billion.”
      Yes, this is the fantastic bit. The Treasury estimates the revenue cost of the above-inflation part of the increase in higher thresholds to be an extra £100M p.a. Yet somehow, by not implementing it, the inflation-matching will provide £250M per year in Scotland!

    101. theMadMurph says:

      @Andrew McLean

      Classic lyrics today my friend! I loved those songs! You must be an old bugger too!

    102. Dr Jim says:

      Today I am wearing a red country style fleece from Scotland s Woollen Mills over a pale blue shirt with Khaki Chino slacks and brown slip on shoes
      My hair is brushed in a casual but meaningful way with a slight haughty wave at the front

      OK, that’s me “Journalist” world, now let’s hear the same fashion descriptions on Kezia, Ruth, or even Willie bloody Rennie

      What the F… is up with these sexually insecure so called reporters
      They complain about Nicola Sturgeon constantly like a bunch of disgruntled ex boyfriends, do they all fancy her or something, gossiping with each other about how much they hate her at the same time

      But she crooks her little finger and they come running with their wee tongues hanging out

    103. Andrew McLean says:

      Grouse,

      Yes you are correct, but to get back to the point, we were discussing editors in two broad sheets, I can only tell you what I know, one told me if it got out he would be a marked man! So did what little he can. this much said by me is probably out of line and will get me a earful if they stumble across this conversation, so I will leave it there.

      For me I am very openly SNP even have yes sticker on my rear windscreen, but then who am I?

    104. harry mcaye says:

      “Do NOT turn on your television today, especially not any British Boak Channel.

      The wee item in the bottom corner of Page 15 of The National is much more succinct!”

      Ha Ha, thanks Graham, just had a keek, “Woman Has 90th Birthday”, hidden away in the corner. I do hope the Daily Mail are suitably outraged!

    105. ScottieDog says:

      @yesindyref2
      I think the most valid attack should be on the economic ignorance of George Osborne (and most other modern day chancellors).
      His grasp of macroeconomics is non-existent as I alluded to regarding controlling the deficit.
      Sure he missed his own target, but he believes that to reach that he needs to further slash spending. This seems intuitive in microeconomics (at the household level), but not at the macroeconomic scale.

      The biggest myth the Tories peddle is that the economy is like a household. They conflate macroeconomics with microeconomics.
      For example,
      If I start to save money every month then my disposable income increases. Great! Makes sense. If we all did that then it’s pretty obvious, people are spending less into the economy. My income depends on the spending of others. If that drops my income drops or disappears altogether!

      A simple analogy for the Tory view of macroeconomics…
      I’m sitting warhcing the rugby at Murrayfield. If I stand up I’ll get a better view (micro). The neo-liberal assumption is, if we all stand up we’ll all get a better view (macro)! Quite clearly untrue.

      Obviously Osborne doesn’t go to watch sport.

    106. Andrew McLean says:

      Mad Murph 1:37,
      Yes I am an old git, addled by sex and drugs and rock and roll!
      Grousy you will appreciate these lyrics too I’m sure .

      Keep your silly ways or throw them out the window
      The wisdom of your ways, I’ve been there and I know
      Lots of other ways, what a jolly bad show
      If all you ever do is business you don’t like

      Every bit of clothing ought to make you pretty
      You can cut the clothing, grey is such a pity
      I should wear the clothing of Mr. Walter Mitty
      See my tailor, he’s called Simon, I know it’s going to fit

      Here’s a little piece of advice
      You’re quite welcome it is free
      Don’t do nothing that is cut price
      You know what that’ll make you be
      They will try their tricky device
      Trap you with the ordinary

      Get your teeth into a small slice
      The cake of liberty

      Sex and drugs and rock and roll
      Is all my brain and body need
      Sex and drugs and rock and roll
      Are very good indeed!

    107. Lord Flipper Dearie says:

      OT but I’m celebrating Her Majesty’s unique achievement by having a 21 fart salute in her honour at the Sandringham Arms Hotel this evening at 8 o’clock.

    108. steveasaneilean says:

      Ah the old MSM motto – if at first you don’t succeed lie, lie and lie again.

    109. The Rough Bounds. says:

      Farquharson’s English usage is suspect. ”…100 Journalists were sat…”.

      You silly boy Kenny. It is of course, ”…were SEATED…”

      And not only silly, but you are a total arse.

    110. galamcennalath says:

      Around 300 people in the UK had their 90th birthday today. 🙂

      Happy Birthday to all!

    111. yesindyref2 says:

      @Phil Robertson
      You’re fluffing it Phil, what I posted stands.

    112. cearc says:

      100 journalists, eh?

      Tad more than the other party ‘leaders managed to attract.

      I’ve gone for the summery feel this fine day. Wearing a yellow/grey check summer frock with half sleeves and a full compliment of thermal underwear.

    113. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      21 April, 2016 at 1:49 pm
      wise words from robin macalpine

      They would be, if Scotland was now an independent nation state SC.

      The fact is that guys like Macalpine are trying to pull votes off of the SNP May 5. If they are successful enough, its a coalition or minority Holyrood and if that’s not the end of the independence road for Scotland, its certainly going to grind to a halt eventually.

      And SC, Macalpine and his team are not above criticism. If they dont like being criticised they can either listen to it or go away.

      Once again, maybe if The Vow had turned out to be nothing much at all or Scotland was independent today, Macalpine’s “SNP aren’t left and they have too many votes so give us some NOW” schtick looks great on the old MSM but actually it stinks.

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      @Andrew
      Interesting posting. I think what people in such a position have to remember and undoubtedly do, is that we’re all very reactive, including me. It’s a case of soldier on doing the best and hoping it’s enough. Better than doing nothing, or being put in a position that nothing can be done i.e. sacked!

    115. yesindyref2 says:

      @ScottieDog
      Osborne is incompetent and an idiot. Umm, that’s all!

      Except that I think and say that with no policital bias.

    116. Grouse Beater says:

      Andrew McLean: “One editor told me if it got out he would be a marked man!”

      The people I referred to some posts back are those with real power, not their deputies or hirelings, power given them by the British establishment. Sure, there are times I think it wiser to deploy tact or diplomacy. But I’m known to spoil a good business lunch tackling a colleague who thinks the SNP a virus in ‘British’ politics. They never see the argument in Scottish terms. It’s always British terms.

      As for physical identity – I’ve slipped a few photographs into essays, proof I’m not the pensionable old git nasty NeoConNatterjack would have me be, ready for the grave.

      There’s one here: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-5BJ

    117. bugsbunny says:

      kailyard rules@1.28,

      Don’t forget about a belated 127th birthday to Adolf Hitler yesterday, (What is it they say about people whose birthdays are close together?), lol.

      According to a certain satirical puppet programme he went under the name of Herr Jeremy Wilcox and lived next door to Maggie at 9 Downing Street in 1984 when he was 95. lol.

      There’s a mid 80s piss take of Audi Cars just before it.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dUc-Vd2kok

      Stephen.

    118. yesindyref2 says:

      @Grouse
      Sorry to be butting in, but I cast a glass e’e on all the media occasionally, and there’s a lot of pleasant almost hidden surprises.

    119. Giving Goose says:

      On the subject of er…subjects and dear leaders.

      Every time I listen to some “news” item on the radio or television about a certain birthday, I find myself (sarcastically) proclaiming “Hoorah, Hoorah, HoooRahhh!”

      My wife thinks I’ve got Tourettes.

    120. heedtracker says:

      Another yoon farce dribbles out of STV this time. This is UKOK Aberdeen council, owned by likes of Wullie Young and once again, pissing money up a wall.

      http://stv.tv/news/north/1351387-cost-of-aberdeens-new-art-hub-soars-by-3m/

    121. Giving Goose says:

      Re bugsbunny

      I seem to remember that Adolf and the Queens uncle (the one who used to keep the throne warm with his bum) were good mates.

    122. Al-Stuart says:

      Well done Stu., keep up the the HISTORICAL-FACT-CHECKING of the likes of that lazy journalist, Kenny Farquharson.

      Whilst you are at it PLEASE can you do something about these Labout MSP candidates.

      I just got through a TURGID leaflet fro Joanne McFadden in which she moans (uin very large font letters)…

      It breaks my heart to see how SNP Government austerity is effecting the lives of the people in Angus South”

      As one of the ex-Lablour voters now ticking the SNP ballot if Ms McFadden thinks her REVISION of history and slagging off the SNP is going to get me back, she is utterly deluded.

      Was it not the millionaire Labour Minister James Purnell who brought in ATOS and signed the death warrant to start the cull of the cripples…

      http://www.calumslist.org

      Joanne McFadden may not quite have blood on her hands, but she has a bloody cheek. The Blue Tories have responsibility for the current austerity, and it was the Labour Red Tories that caused the austerity and started to kill off the weakest in society.

      I don’t trust Joanne McFadden.

      I don’t trust her agent Kathy Wiles, and I certainly don’t trust those career politicians that have infected Keir Hardie’s Labour Party.

      Joanne McFadden, would be MSP for Angus South – your utter hypocrisy in trying to blame the SNP for your political sins has cost you any credibility.

      I am definitely voting SNP x 2 on 5th May 2016

      If anyone from Scottish Labour read this, the way you MIGHT have gotten me to return to Scottish Labour is to apologise for the sins of Tony Blair, James Purnell, Jim Murphy et al. Then STOP slagging off the SNP. Instead find common ground with the SNP and work in a collegiate manner.

      I loathe everything about LibDem Willie Rennie, buy when Bernard Ponsonby interviewed him last night on the television, Willie Rennie actually commended certain SNP policies. Strangely, that bought him a couple of brownie points. With all the LibDem lies, Alistair Carmichael and the ConDem Coalition I never thought I would have a positive word to say about a LibDem. But when politicians STOP slagging each other off and start working together for the common good – that is the road back from oblivion. Though for us in Angus South, Joanne McFadden is going in the wrong direction and headed to oblivion. Here is a fact for Joanne McFadden who lists being a key member in Gerard McMahon’s feckless bid to become Labour MP for Angus in 2015. Joanne McFadden and her team of SNP-slaggers got dumped. She lost her boss over 8% of the vote from the 2010 election: Labour got 3,919 votes and the SNP got 24,130 votes. Are we learning anything yet Joanne???

    123. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Happy Birthday ma’am!

      50 Cent vs Jimmy Shand –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnxO9XnZq_Y

    124. heedtracker says:

      While BBC led royals grovelling hits overdrive for an old billionaire that threatened Scotland for voting YES, its an other great Scots birthday today, from Dunbar this time. He’s never ever mentioned by our dominant yoon culture but

      http://www.johnmuirassociation.org/php/bday-earthday/bday-earthday.php

    125. G H Graham says:

      ScottieDog

      In principle I agree. But the point I tried to make is that the economic forecasts by the current British Government are as accurate as a blind man aiming darts at a target while drifting in the North Sea in a lifeboat.

      Osborne has made commitments twice every year since taking office about reducing the current account deficit & the net public sector debt.

      And every three months or so he is proven to have missed his targets by a very wide margin. The media reports a few headline numbers, shrugs its shoulders & focuses instead on matters it considers much more pressing such as benefit cheats, immigration & Kate Middleton’s underpants.

      Yet, when the Scottish Government produces its forecasts, the British media accusingly laugh so loud, folks in Reykjavik can hear them.

      It’s a repetitive theme beholden of the proBritNat media that British Government, indeed ANY British Government is good but Scottish Government is bad.

    126. call me dave says:

      McWhirter:

      Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP manifesto and the dangers of repeated landslides.

      Some faint praise inside a curate’s egg. 🙁

      https://archive.is/onSO8

    127. Proud Cybernat says:

      http://stv.tv/news/north/1351387-cost-of-aberdeens-new-art-hub-soars-by-3m/

      Ah – a Labour Cooncil. Predictable Financial Incompetence.

      What’s the betting the investigation/report on Labour’s Edinburgh Schools Gret PFI ripoff/disaster are available befor Chilcot?

    128. Andrew McLean says:

      Grousy
      I knen fine who you are, for am I not a vile cybernat worth his salt!

    129. heedtracker says:

      One less bit of Britannia rules the wavesing. Nice timing too. Happy Birthday and toodloo. Lucky sods

      http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/jamaica-announces-plans-to-axe-the-queen-as-official-head-of-state/ar-BBrQrR3

    130. carjamtic says:

      heed tracker @ 3:04
      Totally O/T

      Thanks for this,a couple of years ago while on hols. at Loch Rannoch/Rannoch Moor,me and the familly decided to have a close look at the nearby Schiehallion Munro.

      None of us climbers or ‘baggers’,just went for a look,we pulled in at the Forestry Commission car park at The Brae of Foss,to discover a new footpath had been constructed by the John Muir Trust volunteers.

      We strolled up the footpath,for a bit……ended up at top :-)……..wow……if you ever get the chance like this,I can recommend,jaw dropping views from the top(we had all the gear with us,from trekking across Rannoch Moor).

      Scotland at it’s most magnificent,,luckily had our camera’s with us,so Kodak moments aplenty, the ascent was easy thanks to the JM volunteers newly constructed foot path,our hero’s.

    131. heedtracker says:

      call me dave says:
      21 April, 2016 at 3:09 pm
      McWhirter:

      Only can the Scotland region produces gits like him

      “Nevertheless, we should always ask questions – and keep asking them – about a government, however competent, that gains too much power. I don’t actually believe it is in the SNP’s own best interest to continue to utterly dominate Holyrood. Those #bothvotesSNP enthusiasts who argue the SNP must pile up more and more votes and bigger and bigger landslides don’t seem to know why they should want this.”

      “Too much power” for you silly little Scotland region of toryboy world UK.

      UKOK hackdom hath spake on to the sweaties. How will we respond May 5?

    132. katherine hamilton says:

      @Al-Stuart and your broken hearted candidate.

      I agree totally with your contempt for her. Her heart’s not broken. Just childish, pseudo-emotional tosh, showing her “caring (cause I’m a woman?) side. It’s all bollocks.

      She’s a self serving hypocrite.

      If all her emoting had a shred of sincerity, she’d not be in the friggin Labour Party in the first place. I should know. I was there when it all started.

      I really really hate when they play that card. History never happened?

    133. carjamtic says:

      …….forgot to say,you can camp on the beach at Loch Rannoch for free..’wild camping’. ;-))

    134. schrodingers cat says:

      heedtracker

      i think macalpine was decrying the bickering going on amongst indy supporters, nothing more.

      for me, tactical voting isnt political, politics in scotland are irrelevent, they always have been, for me, independence is personal.

      only with independence do our opinions and votes mean anything.

      we are on a journey, the next step is the snp winning a majority in may. the tactical voting i suggest is not without risk, but i believe it is a calculated risk which benefits the indy movement. it will enable us to throttle the unionists at birth. come indyref2, itr will be difficult for the bbc to organise a debate on the environment without patrick harvey but with a libdem CANDIDATE, bused in from london

      the unionists are already scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of policy and quality of candidates. tactical voting could remove them altogether.

      i couldnt really care what policies rise or the greens have, as i said, politics are irrelevant, their only saving grace is they are not unionists

    135. schrodingers cat says:

      carjamtic

      schiehallion was the first area ever to be mapped using contours
      there is a bothy below on the pass going over to fortingall, glenmore i think.

    136. Dr Jim says:

      We need a strong opposition in Holyrood

      The papers tell us, the other politicians tell us, the State Broadcaster tells us, in fact everybody who’s not in that position of power tells us that

      And really, it’s firstly insulting and secondly patronising and we don’t need any such thing

      We the people are the opposition, if we don’t like what they’re doing we vote them out and the opposite is true if we do

      Why on earth really would we want this strong opposition to things that might be good and then later those same politicians could say things like, we tried to do good stuff but the opposition kept blocking us

      Now folk could say but your party’s in power at the moment so you’re happy, but that doesn’t work because if they Bugger it up they did it themselves so get all the blame and the next lot of politicians get their go

      In that way every politician stands or falls on their own record without the ability to shift the blame onto others
      We saw it in the Lib Con coalition and Willie Rennie in particular is guilty of claiming all the good stuff was Lib and all the bad was Tory, he even did it on Bernard Ponsonby’s wee scrutiny talk the other night Lib good Lab bad, all in the hope of doing exactly what Stu’s article is about, hoping that folk have developed a mental block or a loss of memory on who did or said what

      Thing is, the bewildered lose the will to live, switch off and mark the spot with their wee X from some random memory in their brain that was planted by a lying Bastirt of a con man and the job is done, which is exactly what they hope will happen

      Opposition? I think that’s our job

      Then Scotland can say to it’s politicians, Beware! or you go the way of the Labour party and the Tory party and you don’t get back in, You are in effect, a Monty Python Parrot

      #Honestscotpolitics…….. Who wants the job now?

    137. heedtracker says:

      carjamtic says:
      21 April, 2016 at 3:49 pm
      heed tracker @ 3:04
      Totally O/T

      We sometimes walk in the Queens Balmoral estate, up Lochnagar. There’s been a lot of path repair, they even chopper in stones but its all paid for by the National Trust for Scotland, or us.

      The Queen alone is thought to be with £37 billion. She now charges you a couple of quid to park at Loch Muik too. Money’s money sucka.

      http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/cairngorms/lochnagar.shtml

      Actually on balance, because the royals are only on their Balmoral estate and palace a few weeks a year, the whole place is dead quiet most of the time, devoid of anything much living or native species but dead quiet.

      The empty spaces of Scotland, when the shooting season’s past are no doubt one of the great benefits of the union. Scotland, playground/open air slaughter house for the very rich, but dead quiet the rest of the time.

    138. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi carjamtic.

      On a clear day, you can see Schiehallion from Dundee Law.

    139. Jack Murphy says:

      Al-Stuart said at 3:01pm:-
      “………..I don’t trust Joanne McFadden.
      I don’t trust her agent Kathy Wiles, and I certainly don’t trust those career politicians that have infected Keir Hardie’s Labour Party.
      Joanne McFadden, would be MSP for Angus South – your utter hypocrisy in trying to blame the SNP for your political sins has cost you any credibility.

      I am definitely voting SNP x 2 on 5th May 2016…………..”

      Here’s a wee eyeopener about McFadden’s agent Kathy Wiles in the BBC Question Time audience from the City of Dundee this year:-

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/what-are-the-odds/#more-82647

    140. carjamtic says:

      Schrödinger’s cat

      Aye,SC the ‘centre’ of Scotland,whit a place,whit a history,whit a country..my hearts bursting pride,just thinking about it.

      One of the many,many,many reason’s we need our country back from these Yoons,who want to keep it from us,own it for themselves.

      #needadramwindingmyselfup 😉

      SNP x 2

      Indyref2

    141. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ,

      Somewhat O/T, but the survey was done by a certain Mr. Mason, whose name is better known for his other survey with a certain Mr. Dixon in the Americas.

      Schiehallion was also used in the first experimental determination of the weight of the Earth by the Rev. Nevil Maskelyne in 1774, in effect the first practical confirmation of Newton’s theory of gravity.

      Just sayin’…

    142. carjamtic says:

      BDTT @ 4:20

      Braw, Brian braw,see it also from the Queen’s View……named after Queen Isobella wife of Robert the Bruce,fantastic view across Loch Tommel,now planning road trips for summer 😉

    143. mealer says:

      Well spotted Rev.You’ve just made Kenny Farquarson look like an incompetent,unprofessional and lazy hack.

    144. Andrew McLean says:

      schrodingers cat says: 4:09

      Sorry Schiehallion was not the first area ever to be mapped using contours. that’s an urban myth.
      It was however the mountain chosen to determine the mass of the earth by extrapolating the mass of the mountain from its gravitational deflection. As a side Newton’s gravitational constant “G” therefore the mass of the other stars and planets.

    145. Gary45% says:

      Dr Jim@4.14pm
      Maybe the SNP should get a reserve team to make up a strong opposition.

      Malcolm Chisolm was a fine politician,(That was one out of the whole opposition, and he has now retired)

      The Yoons cannot blame the SNP for the state of the opposition in Scotland, its not our fault they are all pish.
      SNPx2

    146. Grouse Beater says:

      The strong opposition we’re told the SNP administration needs is called the Westminster government.

    147. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      21 April, 2016 at 4:04 pm
      heedtracker

      i think macalpine was decrying the bickering going on amongst indy supporters, nothing more

      You couldn’t be any clearer why your voting as you are but Macalpine is angry that we wont vote for him or at least polls suggest we wont vote for him. So all he can do is attack SNP voters.

      Just like that phoney Macwhirter, Macalpine sets about fear mongering for votes in very bizarre fashion. Macwhirter tries to scare us into to NOT voting who we want because Holyrood cant have too much power, “its not in our nature” said another UKOK delight.

      Competent government?

      Government doing these that are popular with the electorate?

      Government working for Scotland?

      Its an outrage, let the yoons take over again and it all be fine and dandy.

      Macalpine can get lost.

    148. NeoconNat says:

      Grouse Beater’s suggestion that all editors and journalists “detest” the SNP and typically refer to them in scathing and ridiculing terms is incorrect.

      That’s all. It’s just incorrect.

      They refer to the SNP only by using profanity, shouting obscenities, greet any defence of Scotland’s only dedicated political party with derisory laughter and ridicule.

      In short, they detest the SNP.

    149. Iain More says:

      He really is a bitter twat. Perhaps he should apply for a job as the Royal Corgi arse wipe since he is well qualified as an obsequious Brit Nat, mind you Witchell would have to retire first.

      I have managed to avoid the Royalist guff today as it was a really nice day out. I noted an absence of UKOK dog walkers today which made the walk all the more relaxing. No doubt they were parked in front of the Brit Nat goggle box rocking their head’s and drooling. I also noted an utter absence of the Kipper yacht Brigade today, none to block my view of dolphin watching.

    150. Grouse Beater says:

      NeoConNatterjack: Grouse Beater’s suggestion that [all?] editors and journalists “detest” the SNP and refer to them in scathing and ridiculing terms is incorrect.

      I recognise you as David Torrance, and I claim my £5.

    151. Dr Jim says:

      Kathy Wiles

      Is that not the Labour woman who posted pictures of the Hitler youth and compared it to the children of SNP supporters? and was forced to resign

      Or am I maligning the wrong person

    152. Ghillie says:

      Kenny Fartyson is not very bright.

      I doubt he has any idea that research is an integral part of his job. He certainly doesn’t worry about reporting the truth.

      Yes, he is jealous. And his grasp of English grammer is poor.

      (Mine’s not great either but I don’t pretend to be a journalist)

    153. Les Wilson says:

      Ruby says:
      Yeah,and most of them will be relatives!

    154. Grouse Beater says:

      Ruby: “WOW! 23 backers in 42 days!

      🙂

      In one way it’s sad, a once great party at rock bottom.

    155. Valerie says:

      @Heedtracker

      I’m with you on McAlpine. I have respect for him speaking on subjects of equality in housing etc., but I’m afraid he’s not keen on us dissecting what he is saying.

      He alleges that big business is lobbying the SG to our detriment, as if no one but him is paying attention.

      I suppose the SNP manifests promotes community ownership of 50% of energy/heating projects to appeal to big business?

      We need big business but the SG want to send a message that business has to be seen in taking a stake, and commit to communities. Not so easy to cut and run.

      I do agree that its time to avert my eyes though, can’t be arsed with the fighting, and will get on with my bit.

    156. Orri says:

      Just how clever does he think he is though?

      Tying in to current events you get a subtle reference to “cleaning the slate” which has as much to do with forgetting past transgressions as it does with the no longer taking incumbency in to account. LDs record whilst in coalition, forget it. Same with Labour or Tory. SNP can’t remind us of the good they’ve done. Obviously anything bad can still be cast up. Selective amnesia obviously.

      More telling is the sidebar about Dear Leader portraying her as some kind of dictator, with the reference to the USA having slight xenophobic overtones as well as linking to the current presidential election which admittedly can only elect a candidate from the same party. Nice republican overtones on a monarchs 90th.

    157. Iain says:

      All these yoon journalists can huff and puff as much as they want. They have a big problem, nobody in Scotland is listening. The bum and bbc have shot their bolt and are discredited in Scotland by over fifty percent of Scots. Their propaganda fool’s only the non computer literate section of society. They know that their game is up and are hoping that their media lasts long enough for them to retire. What are they going to do when Scotland inevitably becomes independent, stand and carp from the sidelines, not much market for that in a new state that will be building itself and its institutions up. Or they could always go and see if the last bit of the British empire will employ some former colonialists.

    158. Clootie says:

      I read Robin Macalpine’s article carefully and I’m afraid I disagree with his interpretation of what is happening.

      Many people over decades (not months) accepted the personal compromise required to unite under the SNP banner. Many care not which banner is used – Saltire / SNP / YES. On the achievement of their dream they will consider the best choice of party to represent their personal interpretation of a good society. They will then work together for our nation.This will require ongoing compromise.

      I will work with Socialist or Tory if they share my view of Scotland determining it’s future. If they demand we settle what that future looks like first then it cannot work.

      YES stalls were very successful but very few (none that I seen) were not dominated by SNP members. The next largest group were people not alignged to any political party.

      I remain certain that the SNP can deliver it on their own (the opposite of Robin) but only when it is an extension of the current compromise.

      I will choose to accept and live in the Scotland that the citizens have shaped.
      I will not demand that it’s citizens live in the Scotland I want.

    159. Iain More says:

      The UKOK Press and Media hacks are still not getting it. The SNP BAAHD mantra isn’t calling them or SG to account as they have all discredited themselves during the Referendum and have sunk even lower since.

      If by some shock and horror they actually write or say something that happens to be true then nobody believes them. They cried wolf way too often to be taken seriously about anything anymore.

    160. NiallD says:

      The Rev gives Mr Farquharson a good “dress”ing down”, after getting “shirt”y about Nicola.Then a good “belt” followed by a good “shoe”ing.. That is the Rev’s “style”. Don’t mess with Rev, you won’t even get a “tie”. He has been “stocking” ripostes for all occasions.

      I tip my “hat” to you.

      SNP x 2

    161. DerekM says:

      Eh mans an idiot so to say you want re-elected is American and SNP bad who would have thought it or maybe he just makes it all up.

      Ah fortingall lovely part of the world you should stop at the hotel for a beer and a meal i always do on my way up into the tummel valley 🙂

    162. One_Scot says:

      “If you want to see the SNP back in government on May 6, vote SNP with both votes. The truth is that nothing else will guarantee that outcome.”

      Nicola Sturgeon.

      There is not really much more you can add to that.

    163. wee folding bike says:

      The reason Schiehallion was mapped using contours is that it was used to weigh the planet.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiehallion_experiment

      No hair, black RayBan Wayfarers, black Madness t-shirt with sort of the cover of My Girl on it, black zipped off Craghopper zip off trousers and black Converse Chuck low tops.

    164. wee folding bike says:

      Prince has died.

      No, the musical one.

    165. schrodingers cat says:

      i know robin is left wing but i wasnt aware he had joined rise or that he was standing as a candidate?

    166. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      I read the McAlpine article and it’s OK, but with a bias shown by this for example: “… to give more cash gifts to big business through the Air Passenger Duty cut than they were going to raise via a terribly modest increase in Council Tax.” and a couple of others, like saying a website retailiated against another one, and it’s obvious which way around he means.

      It’s a shame as the message is OK, but the bias spoils it.

    167. Breeks says:

      I don’t come across the work of journalists very often, mind you, neither does anyone watching the BBC or reading the “Scottish” newspapers.
      The one exception was the Calton Hill YES rally before the 2014 referendum. I was stood at the back, (had my two dogs with me so wanted a bit space) with a clear line of sight to Princes Street. I saw a man and a cameraman climb up the hill, set themselves up with the YES rally as a backdrop, then do a quick one take “report” to the effect that Nicola Sturgeon’s speech was well received by the YES crowd, but had no answers to the many questions that had been asked. It was all bollocks. Nicola was still speaking for one thing, and these two jokers hadn’t heard a word of it, yet had their scripted report regardless. I thought at the time “what a complete fraud”. The pair didn’t hang around. Be a surprise if they were there on Calton Hill for more than 5 minutes from start to finish, but they had their “I was there” live backdrop. With hindsight, I wish I’d caught some of it with my camera phone, but I was actually wanting to hear the rally, and of course had both hands full holding onto dogs. I know, no Ace Scoop Reporter awards for me, but the Mark 1 eyeballs were working fine, even if the brain wasn’t up to speed.
      I did look for a badge saying BBC or some other agency, but neither man nor the camera bore anything obvious, and there wasn’t any of the “This is Bob Josh, from the Calton Hill Yes Rally for BBC news, blah, blah…”. I don’t know who it was, I never saw anything on TV, but they were definitely journalists, and clearly weren’t very comfortable being there. But they categorically did not give a shit about what was actually being said at the Rally.

      So much for “news”, I thought. What a pair of tossers.

    168. Ken500 says:

      Fabulous

      They all fancy her.

      They might catch up, eventually. How to run a successful Gov by listening to the people. The ‘A’ team. Simply the best.

      Willy Young’s Don crossing is late and over budget. He blames the Scottish Gov for Unionist/Green incompetence Wasting £Millions of public money on a carbuncle n the City centre, and refusing a Gift of £80Million to predestanise the City Centre.

      Prince is dead. They are all keeling over. Except for one.

    169. Capella says:

      O/T What is Kathryn Hudson doing all day?

      “Prime Minister David Cameron’s tax affairs will not be investigated by the parliamentary standards watchdog, after it emerged he had profited from an offshore trust. The commissioner refused to give a reason why.”

      http://on.rt.com/7aq7

    170. Ruby says:

      Apart from finding out what a buffoon Kenny Farquarson is I can’t see the point of reading his opinion of the Manifesto launch especially when he expects me to pay.

      I can watch the manifesto launch for myself on You Tube and make up my own mind & if I were interesting in reading Farquaresque type opinions I could go to The Scotsman and read what the in-house UniTrolls have to say.

      I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Farquarson is one of the Scotsman’s in-house UniTrolls.

    171. Ken500 says:

      What is Charlie havering about? For goodness sake.

    172. Ruby says:

      Breeks says:
      21 April, 2016 at 6:29 pm

      I saw a man and a cameraman climb up the hill, set themselves up with the YES rally as a backdrop, then do a quick one take “report” to the effect that Nicola Sturgeon’s speech was well received by the YES crowd, but had no answers to the many questions that had been asked. It was all bollocks.

      Ruby replies
      She certainly had answer for all the ‘journalists’ at this press conference.

      http://tinyurl.com/jh3lasr

      Very impressive.

      Ooops I forgot to pay attention to her outfit & hairdo I’ll never get a job with The Times.

    173. Thepnr says:

      @Heedtracker

      “You couldn’t be any clearer why your voting as you are but Macalpine is angry that we wont vote for him or at least polls suggest we wont vote for him. So all he can do is attack SNP voters.”

      I don’t quite get you there Heedy, Robin Mcalpine isn’t standing for any party as far as I’m aware and the way I read that article he was calling for the left not to attack the SNP and vice-versa as it’s counter productive.

      I don’t agree with many of the assumptions he used in his argument, such as the SNP not being able to do it by themselves, I don’t think that’s true but has a grain of truth.

      I’m not in the least interested in petty bickering over votes but it doesn’t look good and reflects badly on all of us trying our best to convince others of Independence.

      A United front on this matter is far more appealing to a swithering voter than a squabbling rabble.

    174. cearc says:

      Ruby,

      More importantly you didnae tell us what you’re wearing1

      How can we judge your comments without knowing what you are wearing?

    175. Capella says:

      Talking of cynical journalism – Jonathan Pie has a rant:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbCM8vBWrdc

    176. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      Yeah, clocked that in Mr McAlpine’s piece. He made a number of good points but couldn’t help having a dig. The overall message was in the right direction and its a tub I’ve been thumping myself.

      Clootie made a few good points himself upthread. I don’t care who anyone supports as a party come the next referendum so long as they leave the rosette and the party politicking in the drawer. The whole point for me is that we aim for a different and a better politics. A politics without point scoring and a politics that campaigns for something, not against the opposition.

      We’ve seen so much of that form of politics over the decades and what has it brought us but mindless tribalism and in some cases naked hatred. This is the politics that brought us Carmichael’s glib defence of ‘this is how things are done’. The lies, the misrepresentation used with deliberate intent to cause harm to an opposition and its support, simply because … its ‘them’.

    177. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Kenny Farqu-arse-son can FUCK RIGHT OFF.

      Twisted arrogant venemous arshole.

    178. Marie Clark says:

      totally O/T folks, what’s happened to oor ain Robert Peffers and John King?

      I know that Robert doesn’t keep too well, I hopes he’s all right. I miss his educational posts.

      What about John King, has Irene pit the hems oan him? Miss all his wee jokes etc in the mornings.

    179. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Sorry meant arsehole with an’e’.

    180. Orri says:

      In light of the way electoral alliances have been used to corrupt our AMS there’s no way the SNP are going to endorse a vote for other than the SNP. If they were to do so then a semi competent opposition might simply wait to see if the attempt fails.

      If it does then they’ll claim it was a rejection from the electorate of parties trying to cheat them of their democracy.

      If it were to be claimed a success they would then lodge a formal complaint demanding that for purposes of the list calculation the parties taking part in such an arrangement be dealt with as one. They’d also be a case against their combined electoral expenses.

    181. Iain More says:

      re McAlpine

      All through the Referendum I set aside any Party loyalties I had. I didn’t care what side of the political divide somebody came from or even if they came from none at all. I just didn’t care as they all shared one thing with me and that was the dream of Scottish Independence.

      I set aside a lot of specific things such as my Republicanism, my objections to NATO membership, my anti EU stance.

      I couldn’t have cared less what somebodies Religion was or the colour of their skin or where they were born or came from or what side of the tracks they born on as long as they shared the same dream of Scottish Independence.

      I will set it all aside again if I should live long enough to see another Referendum. As somebody who has travelled the world I know we can do things not just differently but way better than the shit we have had to suffer from London and the British Establishment.

    182. Legerwood says:

      O/T

      Election expenses. CH4 News seems to have stirred the hornets’ nest on this.

      Was there not a case involving Mr Mundell and election expenses but cannot remember the exact details.

    183. Andrew Mclean says:

      Wee folding bike,

      No I don’t care what Wikipedia says contour lines, or to give them their Sunday name isolines were being used a hundred years before Hutton. And they weren’t measuring the weight of the planet, just the mass of the mountain. By using a gravitational effect, the deflection of a known weight they could work out the degree of arc.

      Simples!

    184. Ruby says:

      cearc

      I’m wearing a polo shirt, running pants & a pair of trainers. I’m all reading to do some aerobic exercise!

      I’m not saying I’m going to do the exercise but just incase I get the urge I’m all dressed & ready to go.

      I’m having a bad hair day so I might have to wear a hat if I go out.

      Sorry that is all quite boring! Ofcourse I will have a different story to tell in the event of me getting a ‘telephone sex call’

    185. heedtracker says:

      Thepnr says:
      21 April, 2016 at 6:43 pm
      @Heedtracker

      He started it. Ok He is in fact saying if you don’t vote the way I say, there is going to be bitterness, division and you’re all so stupid you cant see that. And its all because SNP are not holding another ref for 5 years, are not progressive liberals like me, because APD is wrong, council tax isnt high enough, If you want all of the above dont vote for them, vote for a smaller RISE style party.

      Or

      “If some SNP members want to get angry, perhaps they might reserve a little bit of that anger for whoever decided that they were going to give more cash gifts to big business through the Air Passenger Duty cut than they were going to raise via a terribly modest increase in Council Tax.”

      Maybe APD is a cash gift for “big” business, maybe council taxes should go up much higher in Scotland but the fact is, raising tax like this especially top rate PAYE tax, in one small part of the UK like this is probably not a good thing.

      Maybe it could be but if it all was a good thing, The Smith Commission wouldn’t have allowed it.

      Or, does Scotland become a mere economic experiment for tax hikes in 10% of the whole?

      Its just so dishonest all this dont vote SNP stuff. Even Macwhirter hasn’t got the integrity to just say out loud and proud, dont vote SNP because if they win, its going to make independence even more possible and that cant ever happen can it.

      Scotland is owned and governed by hard core Conservatives. They have lots of apparatchiks beavering away in their Scotland doing and saying anything to make sure it stays that way. If you want to fanny about with “smaller parties,” that will make their day.

      Here’s one, hard core unionist conservative boot boy, everything is shite in his Scotland region but the cunning UKOK plan bring down the SNP by “giving” Swinney a little tax devo, not a lot, just enough to hang Scotland, get SNP kicked out, end Scottish devo for good

      https://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2015/08/19/one-year-on-nearly/

      “If the Scottish health service is still in the mess in 2021 that it is in now, it will be no-one but the SNP’s fault. Moreover, well before 2021 the new tax and welfare powers agreed by the Smith Commission and currently being legislated for in the Scotland Bill will be fully in force.

      Mr Swinney made a complete hash of the first tax devolved to him (stamp duty) and, when he takes charge of income tax in Scotland, which he soon will, his job will get a whole lot harder.”

    186. Thepnr says:

      Let’s think about swithering voters, you know the ones that we need in order to get over 50% of the vote in a referendum.

      Maybe the ones we need to get to over 55% in the polls before we have a referendum if I understand Nicola Sturgeon correctly.

      No Nicola knows what she is doing and in fact has reached out to Labour supporters on more than one occasion. The 20% or so of the Scottish electorate has to be the main target for more Indy votes.

      So who do you thoink they are? I think some are diehards and will NEVER change, the majority though are more likely life long supporters because of who they are, who their fathers and grandfathers were. Decent people, descendants of Red Clydsiders, trade Union memebers who have a problem switching.

      Many, many have already done so, those that remain are more difficult to shift, this I believe is where the more left leaning indy supporting parties come in.

      There will be some Libs that we could convince and some Tories but the only way we will increase support to 55% is by capturing half the remaining Labour vote.

      Can’t you see that the establishment know this and that is probably the ONLY reason that the BBC and BUM appear as SLAB propagandists. It’s their only hope, to stop Labour voters slowly sliding towards Independence.

      Open you eyes folk. Our job is not to convert anyone to become an SNP supporter, just an Independence supporter.

      We will need all the help we can get, so try not to diss it.

    187. Robert Graham says:

      thanks for the ken macintosh link Ruby , a bit confused it states backers pledged £1500.00 but when you count the backers pledges it comes to £ 800.00 , £700.00 quid missing christ not already ha ha .Oh sugar Jabba in charge of the cash again ?.

    188. Dorothy Devine says:

      hey Breeks , could you no have let your dogs off the leash and point them with the words “fetch!” and “Cats”?

      I am echoing concerns about Mr Peffers – hope its just his computer that is playing up.

      And the man with the best T-shirt – hope he is OK too.

    189. ronnie anderson says:

      O/T

      A warrant for arrest was issued today at Glasgow Sherriff Court for Stephen Lyall aka Harry Sahm of Yessie. The Conman of the Yes movement.

    190. Thepnr says:

      Should have added, this manufactured spat between the left Indy parties and the SNP is just the current strategy of the establishment and probably their best.

      It’s all they have left, don’t fall for it.

    191. Cadogan Enright says:

      With respect to Leslie Riddock in the Nationsl today, she and other minor Yes party people fail to understand that the Scottish Government IS the opposition to a self-sustaining elite operating from a very narrow neo colonial class of people in SE England. They control all 3 shades of Tory.

      The SNP is the only real opposition in the UK.

      Scottish Independence is also the only way we collectively can shake off the power of this elite, the EBC and the ‘single way’ politics of the 3 Tory parties and to open the door to new opportunities for the environment or social governance.

      As green in NI I hugely appreciate what the Scottish Government is doing to demonstrate to the other devolved parliaments how the weak levers of devolved power can be used to demonstrate REAL opposition to the cleptocracy that is stealing the means to sustain the well-being of people in Britain and Ireland.

      I have campaigned for the Greens in Scotland in the past, and will so again, but only after independence.

      Thanks to the Rev, we all have a strong grasp of numbers and know that any sane independence supporter will vote SNP SNP and ‘remain’. As well.

      Leslie is being unduly influenced by the chatter in the very biased Scottinsh media that is aimed at undermining the only REAL OPPOSITION to Westminister in the UK.

      If Greens want SNP transfers in Scotland, then wait till next year when the electoral system under local elections suits inter-party transfers.

      Expecting to bound into National government without doing the hard work at Council level by misleading SNP supporters over this upcoming electoral system is deeply dishonest

    192. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      Just read Lesley Riddoch’s column, and a comment I made in Bella 2 weeks ago she says was posted in reply to WGD’s column yesterday. Ah well! Accuracy is not important …

      My signin works on the National but doesn’t allow me to post for some odd reason. Anyway, in answer to her concluding line “Surely in this “multiform, infinite Scotland” there’s room for disagreement?” there’s a short answer:

      Well of course there’s room for disagreement but without Independence there’s precious little we can do about it.

      and a long answer as in Bella which she quoted:

      “Why will I give both votes to the SNP, and hope they get an overall majority, in spite of my belief that Holyrood itself functions better with a minority government and therefore some level of “consensus”? Because I believe in Independence, Independence, Independence for Scotland. Nothing else matters.

      “The rest is all bickering about how the hamstrung, limited, pigeon-holed, and heavily disadvantaged Scottish Government can work with limited powers. What’s more important, independence which enables all politics, or party politics which could disable the chance of getting independence?”

      I like her, but she is a bit of a loose arrow with shifting focus.

    193. garles says:

      I am working in North Wales this week:

      Wednesday: one of the welsh guys I am working with asks

      “Are you a good or bad Scot.

      Me:Eh!

      “Are you a Yoon !”

      Me: Almost pissed myself laughing. Nae a voted yes

      turns out the guys are all members of Plaid Cymru

      Middle of rural Wales and the term “Yoon” has migrated down here

      Pricless !

    194. Rob James says:

      What’s Farquharson on about with this ‘dear leader’ crap? I see Tank commander has bestowed the birthday girl the same title. ‘Dear’ is a complete misnomer. Fcukin ‘extortionate leader’ would be much more appropriate.

      Unless of course Ruthie is referring to the iconic figure on whom she models herself – Kim Jong Un. (Same haircut, same dress sense).

    195. Big Jock says:

      I think everyone reasonable agrees that devolution has reached its glass ceiling. Another 5 years will not radically change Scotland. We need the full fiscal levers and control over everything else. In other words people will eventually see that devolution does not satisfy a country’s ambitions. We can’t go on like this forever.

    196. yesindyref2 says:

      @Cadogan Enright
      Lesley Riddoch went to the ERS meeting for Heaven’s sake, the ERS talkng about one ring to RULE them all, one ring to find them and in the SNP bind them in darkness and servitude and one-party statism. The ERS who organised such a meeting 2 weeks before the election, oh what a coincidence and non-partisan idea that was from a 15 member council organisation with mostly Labour and Lib-Dem members – and she went to it eyes innocent it seems. Like wow. Yes, she’s being manipulated.

      I’ll shut up now.

    197. Robert Graham says:

      it looks like Ken Macintosh is charging for comments on his election crowdfunder page 5 so far , do you think a Fiver would cover ” gtf yah lying b/std and take yer f/n party of con men with you ” or the whole unabridged version for a Tenner , oh i think Jabba is holding the folding thats a relief eh ? , maybe i should ask kiesza she’s always on the ball isnt she .

    198. scotspine says:

      @ Ruby.

      Whats your number? ; )

    199. Tam Jardine says:

      Enjoyed Robin MacAlpine’s plea for everyone to cool down and stop hectoring each other- maybe he has been reading some of the posts on here that have been pleading the same thing for weeks?

      One thing I don’t get: the idea that APD cut is simply a big sweetener to The Man.

      How many power stations are China building a year? I doubt making Scotland a slightly less expensive place to travel to for business or pleasure is going to make too much of a dent.

      The whole London hub system increases unnecessary air miles anyway. Many of these extra trips to Scotland are INSTEAD of folk going to England or Ireland – not extra journeys as such.

      Besides-the very folk who won’t feel much difference with an APD cut are businessmen. Idiots like me who knock their pan in for crap money who want to take wife and children abroad once in a blue moon will see a big difference.

      I know I’m not working in a tractor factory or a shipyard but I am a worker nonetheless Robin. Flights should not be the preserve of the well heeled.

      Anyway- am drinking down a cold lager getting all nervous about the lack of revolutionary zeal in Leith… I watch for window posters everywhere and their ain’t enough.

      WE HAVE TO WIN THIS FUCKING ELECTION ROBIN. Minority government and you can wind down commonweal as the gemme is over. But please keep on doing what you are doing. Apart from a few wee things we are as one.

      That is all

    200. Inverclyder says:

      OT

      Ruth being sliced, diced and dissected by Bernard Ponsonby.

    201. Ruby says:

      scotspine says:
      21 April, 2016 at 8:25 pm

      @ Ruby.

      Whats your number? ; )

      Ruby replies

      🙂

    202. galamcennalath says:

      Big Jock says:

      “I think everyone reasonable agrees that devolution has reached its glass ceiling. Another 5 years will not radically change Scotland. …. We can’t go on like this forever.”

      That is certainly the way I see it. Just think of all the effort we had to go through to get pathetic SmithLite out of the bu99ers!

      Also, they tried their damnedest to make it a tool to diminish our remaining block grant.

      It has to become crystal clear and accepted by everyone that this is (probably) as far as devolution is going to take up. A third of the way to Indy, perhaps?

      There are still believers in DevoMax out there. It will never happen. They need to forget that dream and focus on what is actually available.

      The choice is DevoNotMuch or Indy.

    203. Mark Fletcher says:

      ‘As always Fanny Farquarson looked a right right-wing lazy fud. He had a Ruthie bowl-cut and was wearing a blue suit from the Westminster designer Tory Bollocks with a padded collar in the style of a lunatic’s giggle-jacket wi the buckles at the back……’

      I quite like this fashion stuff. It’s much easier to write than proper journalism.

      Just about any regular contributor to this site could do a better job than that dullard.

    204. Sue Varley says:

      Thanks for the “Page 15” comments guys – prompted me to go and seek out the last copy in Dingwall – well worth it.

    205. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Inverclyder Any links to Ponsenby & Ruthie

    206. Inverclyder says:

      Ronnie

      Was watching the STV Glasgow channel on the telly!

      Referendum turned it referendum over as it’s referendum usual referendum Ruth Davison referendum 2nd place referendum accountable referendum opposition referendum referendum referendum. Then her head exploded.

    207. call me dave says:

      UK newspapers claim Scottish sales lift

      https://archive.is/aIEy3

    208. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      21 April, 2016 at 6:19 pm
      i know robin is left wing but i wasnt aware he had joined rise or that he was standing as a candidate?

      My mistake, rushing.

      So BIG questions are-

      Is my second vote wasted on the SNP?

      Why does the UKOK creep show want you to second vote anyone but the SNP?

      Would raising tax in one part of the UK be good for Scotland?

      I think the Scottish electorate is fully aware of the ypon bullshit being rammed down our throats.

    209. Connor McEwen says:

      Ronnie Anderson try ponsonbypost.com down the bottom page 1-2-etc

      The National has a sarcky dig on the Queens 90th.
      I was tired and took a couple of mins. to smirk at the nonentity of her persona except for the purring remark.

    210. Saor Alba says:

      I posted this on Wee Ginger Dug yesterday, but I think this is important and so I have posted it again here.

      I was talking to one of the janitors the other day in the school I used to teach in latterly in my career.
      We were talking about voting and I carelessly asked how his leanings were. He replied that he and all of his family used to be labour through and through, but they are all SNP now. He said he was voting SNP.

      However, I became aware that he did not realise that there were 2 votes – constituency and list. Another of his colleagues, who was listening intently said that he knew that there were 2 votes, but opined that the second vote was to allow him to vote for another party. Apparently, he did not realise that the second vote could be used to vote for the same party on the list.

      I wonder how many people out there who are not completely au fait with the voting system might fall into a trap and so may not use their second vote as they might wish. I am not suggesting that you tell them how to vote, just to point out their options. It may be good to keep this in mind when you are talking to anyone about the election, friends, colleagues, neighbours etc, who may not know the ins and outs of the system.

      Unionist parties wouldn’t tell lies on doorsteps and say it was illegal to vote X2 for SNP would they???????

      As for me, my intention is to use the constituency vote for my party of preference and the second list vote for the same party. This is because I believe that they have governed well and, in fact are the only party capable of proper democratic government. They also have the policies that match my aspirations for an Independent Scotland and its people. So my vote is a proper tactical vote which is not a gamble – twice for the same party.

      SNP X 2.

      Hailsa.

    211. Andrew Mclean says:

      The more they mention it the less the scary impact, people will get to think well worth a shot! .? It’s like the program the walking dead, after a while the zombies get quite friendly?

    212. Andrew Mclean says:

      Sorry that was for inverclyder

    213. Thepnr says:

      @Heedtracker

      Why does the UKOK creep show want you to second vote anyone but the SNP?

      This is just my opinion, I don’t think the UKOK creep show really care what SNP voters do with their second vote as they know they are toast anyway at this election.

      Their main objective is same as it’s always been. Division!

      Start arguments, get those on the same side taking different sides. Fuck them, I’m ignoring all this shite and sticking with the vote as YOU see right.

      As I’ve said before we will when a referendum on Independence when the people say so. That includes this election, I doubt the Scottish people are too stupid to know what that requires.

    214. schrodingers cat says:

      Is my second vote wasted on the SNP?

      unfortunate terminology, i would ask which region you are in before answering
      if you are in highland or south then it vote
      snp1&2

      rise are continuing to play politics, when politics is over, the referendum campaign didnt end
      thats why they dont understand the hostility even slight criticisms of the snp bring

    215. NeoconNat says:

      In order to succeed, it is clear to me that the independence movement would need to become more apolitical. By that I mean try and rid itself of traditional class-based politics altogether.

      To a large extent the movement has been hijacked by what you might diplomatically call well-meaning Marxists. But the idea that an independent Scotland might be built on radical socialist foundations scares the life out of a lot of people.

      This explains why support for independence appears to have hit the ceiling.

      The SNP offers the only prospect of us achieving independence and to a large extent they are apolitical. Some of their policies appeal to the left and some to the right. But I think they would need to move further to the right to find the balance I’m talking about.

      Recent pressure exerted by the extreme left in terms of the vote-splitting debate serves to illustrate the point: the left needs to bury its class war hatchets and get behind the SNP. (The Green Party and RISE are both on the extreme left)

      We can factionalise after we achieve independence: why go down that road now and scupper our chances of ever getting anywhere?

      You don’t walk up to a bouncer outside a nightclub and tell him you intend to get smashed and tumbler people once you get inside. That’s effectively what the left are doing.

      I’m sick of hearing aggrieved socialists on here and elsewhere making speeches about the plight of the poor workers and bailed out banks. It’s embarrassing, immature, and boring all at once and it’s also holding us back.

      Nobody is asking anyone to abandon principles, only that they put them on the back burner for a couple of years. Do that and support for independence would gradually increase.

    216. Dr Jim says:

      I’m crossing my fingers for a massive teenage SNP vote
      here’s hoping the youngsters take advantage of what the SNP legislated to give them

      The ones they’ve picked to put on the telly have been as dim as twenty watt light bulbs but that’s the telly

      I’ve also noticed politics seems to have become a part of day to day schooling and I’m not happy with that for the exact same reasons as I don’t like religion in schools either
      Information I’m all for, but in a school, propaganda and opinion is as easy to impart to a young mind as fact

      How many of us have kids who’ve told us “The teacher said that was right” when we know it wasn’t

    217. heedtracker says:

      Thepnr

      schrodingers cat

      thats why they dont understand the hostility even slight criticisms of the snp bring

      Its there in front of us though. SNP are not the independence party and are not left either. We are. We are due a place in Holyrood. Scotland needs the real left like us etc etc

      There are slots for in Holyrood maybe , in the too small, poor, stupid Scotland region.

      Its Macwhirter that gives away the sneaky shit game though. He cant say dont vote SNP to stop Scottish independence because he knows full well the polls show 45% of Scotland is still YES. But sowing seeds of UKOK doubt again, with smaller parties waiting, is a really dirty trick.

      Unless you are happy to have Holyrood the most powerful devolved government in the whole wide UKOK universe, in the greatest never ending UKOK union ever, saving us from ourselves, keeping us safe and rich, from aliens and no North Sea oil, what we’ve seen fuck all of anyway and on it goes in teamGB:D

    218. Thepnr says:

      Why should anyone care about policies if they can’t be implemented?

      Neither policies nor parties matter without Independence. So put them to one side for now. let’s instead discuss how best to win another 5 to 10% of the Scottish electorate to our side.

      Know what I mean? Keep your eye on the prize.

    219. yesindyref2 says:

      @Heed
      YES is 48.5% as an average of the last 16 polls ignoring the pollster, there was a surge after the Ref, and it’s gone up and down around to that average. But after the election we might see some movement upwards I hope, even not taking into account Sturgeon’s promised steady campaign starting in the summer.

      I think with the General Election and Smith, and now Holyrood, it’s stalled a bit, but it’s less than 2 weeks now and it’s – onwards and upwards!

    220. heedtracker says:

      Thepnr says:
      21 April, 2016 at 10:32 pm
      Why should anyone care about policies if they can’t be implemented?

      Neither policies nor parties matter without Independence.

      They will if its a coalition Holyrood May 6. Should be a pretty flat occasion but at least it will give Dugdale and SLab a chance to end austerity with their tax hikes on Scotland, to pay for UK austerity.

      Its all quite possible.

    221. Robert Peffers says:

      @Chitterinlicht says: 21 April, 2016 at 10:03 am:

      “you honestly could not make this stuff up!”

      No WE could not make it up – but they sure as hell can and always do.

    222. Grouse Beater says:

      NeoConNatterjack: “This explains why support for independence appears to have hit the ceiling.”

      I think the term is ‘hit the floor’ …zzzzz

    223. Thepnr says:

      @Heedy

      That’s a fair enough point, but if it is a coalition then it is CERTAIN to be between Indy supporting parties i.e the SNP and the Greens.

      The Greens may get a concession or two in terms of policy in return for their support for the SNP. That doesn’t scare me at all.

      What scares me Heedy is that the likelyhood of the success achieved in the last campaign of all joining together to fight together for Independence could be diminished.

      I really do believe that your fears are exaggerated and unlikely, in this election. My fears I hope are exaggerated also.

    224. Tam Jardine says:

      Having worked all day I am finally exposed to a wee bit of the news on bbc1. Jesus. Even Corbyn was raving about Mrs E Windsor.

      Tony Blair raving about her legacy and how it will be hard for her successor to fill her boots. He probably thought that about himself! Blair- hideous waxwork that he is now, like the product of some sick political taxidermist- whose actions led to the deaths of countless men, women and children- Blair pontificating on the symbol of privilege.

      Now Nicolas Witchell is on- summing up the mood of the nation. Was there ever someone who defined the term sycophant more accurately? Even though the royals detest him, like some victim of stockholm syndrome he is all UKOK style sucking up. We then get a wee trip down memory lane – recalling the queen’s “soft power” in telling the subjects in her scotland region which way to vote.

      This is presented, of course, not as a democratic outrage but as a victory of sorts.

      We then have the beeb attempt to present some kind of piece on Prince. 4 tweets from 4 black guys. It is the worst tribute imaginable. The beeb does royal UKOK pish better than anyone but the NME it is not.

      Now we go to scotland region and britannia: a bunch of absolute wankheads spraffing more pish about duty and service and whatnot. Feeling slightly ashamed of Leith hosting this craft and all the prawn sandwich brigade who take their bus tour from the city centre to ocean terminal via the pringle tat shop.

      And finally, to my horror I realise that the news was actually extended because of all that royal pish.

      I’ve said it before and I will say it again. All this must end.

    225. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 21 April, 2016 at 10:30 am:

      “… He is an excellent fashion correspondent.”

      All together now —

      They seek him here, they seek him there,
      His cloths are loud, but never square.
      It will make or break him, so he has to buy the best,
      ‘Cos he’s a dedicated follower of fashion.

      I’m being a bit Kinky tonight.
      ;-))

    226. Robert Peffers says:

      @

      Macart says: 21 April, 2016 at 10:40 am:

      “Ayup, I’ve noticed that most commentators in the meeja have a selective memory disorder.”

      It’s not the only disorder they have but we don’t want to get too sickened by the grizzly details.

    227. Clootie says:

      @Tam Jardine

      “…Was there ever someone who defined the term sycophant more”

      Still laughing 🙂

    228. Tam Jardine says:

      QT: Paddy Ashdown embarks on his second uninterrupted soliloquy. The deference afforded this prick is incredible.

      Leanne Wood speaks for about 10 seconds and she gets cut off for bringing up the Welsh elections. She also goes way off message by pointing out how hypocritical of the tories to oppose Obama’s intervention when they were quite happy for him sticking his neb in during the indyref.

      Kate Hoey destroys Ashdown’s argument easily and completely. The audience barely notice.

      Now Ashdown is back on. The audience don’t care though- they just want to vote to leave the EU and are not afraid to let everyone know it.

    229. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 21 April, 2016 at 11:00 am:

      “Dead tree entities … “

      You have too many letters in that first bit, galamcennalath, Shouldn’t it read, “Dead tree entitties”?

    230. NeoconNat says:

      How come Prince dies at 57 and Paddy Ashdown lives to be 1000?

      God has a lot of explaining to do.

    231. Onwards says:

      @NeoconNat says:
      21 April, 2016 at 10:13 pm

      In order to succeed, it is clear to me that the independence movement would need to become more apolitical. By that I mean try and rid itself of traditional class-based politics altogether..
      ..
      Nobody is asking anyone to abandon principles, only that they put them on the back burner for a couple of years. Do that and support for independence would gradually increase.

      ——–

      Christ all mighty, I actually agree with NCN here, although I suspect his purpose here is to provoke rather than help.

      But I do agree the principle of basic democracy should come first when it comes to self-government, and differences should be parked for the greater good.

      Obviously, the SNP still has to demonstrate competent government in the meantime. The mainstream of Scottish politics is on the centre-left, and they can’t deviate too far from that.

      But it’s hard to pick up support from the remaining diehard Labour voters. A large number of them are old pensioners stuck in their ways, and its very hard to change that. We will no doubt see proof of this next week as Labour’s manifesto will be full of bribes for old folks in an attempt to hang onto their core vote.

      But IMO, it’s the votes of younger voters we need, and an aspirational vision for Scotland’s future. That’s where independence offers huge benefits, especially for raising Scotland’s international profile.

    232. heedtracker says:

      Thepnr says:
      21 April, 2016 at 10:59 pm
      @Heedy

      I really do believe that your fears are exaggerated and unlikely, in this election. My fears I hope are exaggerated also.

      I like looking at it though, fear I mean. 2014 referendum and the Vow fraud have been almost completely left behind during this SNP campaign, yet we still have yoon culture raging away about it all.

      Its an interesting state of paradox in a semi democracy that we have. This is exactly what they picked D’Hondt for and why our ever more grotesque media refuse flat out to tell us Scotland what it actually is, probably.

      So yesterday The National had Leslie Ridock explain why SNP has been in too long, its a problematic peril and not good for Scotland, the wise, neutral and nice ERS from London are very wise to suggest various ways of, if not getting the SNP out of Holyrood, at least getting those “smaller parties” in. Vote anyone but SNP, let other’s have a go.

      http://www.thenational.scot/comment/lesley-riddoch-peril-lies-in-dominance-of-holyrood-by-one-party.16599

      Tomorrow’s its the Green turn

      The National ?@ScotNational 4h4 hours ago
      Tomorrow @ScotNational @patrickharvie on why Scotland needs a broad, multi-party democracy

    233. Marcia says:

      Interesting Survation poll for the Record released tonight that will cause panic in Labour circles.

    234. Joemcg says:

      Well going by the mood of this QT audience the English public are voting leave. Maybe us yessers should join them even if we disagree as this will probably guarantee Indyref 2.

    235. cearc says:

      Nice to see you back, Robert P.

      Hope you are well, you were missed.

    236. Robert Peffers says:

      @Marie Clark says: 21 April, 2016 at 7:05 pm:

      “totally O/T folks, what’s happened to oor ain Robert Peffers and John King?”

      I don’t know about John, Marie, but this time it is computers and household electrical things that are sick – not me.

      There must have been a surge, or a series of spikes, in the mains electrics at my house. One computer has been trashed , another had its power pack/charger blow-up. The gas boiler controls fried and the gas fire ignition system went down. Among some other things.

      As I have trouble hearing voices on the phone it has been stressful attempting to get things sorted out. Even my rechargeable battery powered electric shaver, which was on-charge, has gone bust.

      Then I found that BTYahoo claim to have no record of my sign-on details or password. Strange seeing as they have billed me for my internet usage for decades.

      They wont let me access my own account saying I don’t know my password and that, (and I quote), “Your name and password are out of date”.

      I’m now considering billing them for a return of the payments from the day I signed up to BTYahoo. After all it would seem I’ve been Direct Debited to pay for someone else’s subscriptions for decades. I have never changed my BTYahoo data.

      Thing is who changed my on-line name and e-mail address? What’s more if it is changed how come I still have email and internet access?

    237. Onwards says:

      Marcia says:
      21 April, 2016 at 11:31 pm
      “Interesting Survation poll for the Record released tonight that will cause panic in Labour circles.”

      See it on twitter now, Marcia.
      That’s the clearest sign of tactical voting I have seen yet, in what looks like SNP votes transferring straight to Green.

      I suspect on the day there won’t be a 10 point difference – as the SNP is using the “Nicola Sturgeon for First Minister” approach on the regional list ballot paper.

    238. NeoconNat says:

      Onwards, I actually think it’s very odd and quite unfair that so much emphasis was put on the pensioners’ role in the referendum. I’ll go further, I think people are being deliberately misled with that sort of analysis.

      I’m not completely guessing but for convenience let’s assume I am.

      If you were to break the yes/no votes down into categories based on earnings rather than age, you’d clearly see that the higher up the earnings ladder you go, the less support for independence you’d find. In short, there’s a much stronger correlation with earnings than age when it comes to support for independence.

      I’ll be even more blunt. The more Scottish people earn, the less likely they are to vote independence. This fact has been quite well hidden and this is probably the first time most of you will have seen it in writing.

      There are reasons for that correlation, as there are for the others. That means you can do something about it. If nobody addresses it, of course, nothing is likely to be done.

    239. Joemcg says:

      Good point Neo but I suppose it could go hand in hand the older you are the more likely you are to earn more.

    240. Thepnr says:

      @Onwards

      I don’t think it’s a good idea to pick the first and last paragraphs of a post and make it look like a point of view representative of the whole post. It’s maybe worth looking at the rest of the content from how I might see it.

      To a large extent the movement has been hijacked by what you might diplomatically call well-meaning Marxists. But the idea that an independent Scotland might be built on radical socialist foundations scares the life out of a lot of people.

      Has the movement been hijacked by Marxists? Seems a bit odd to me as I thought the SNP were and still are the leading light in the Yes campaign abably backed by RIC the SSP, Greens, Labour for Indy, Women for Indy, Business for Scotland etc. during the campaign

      This explains why support for independence appears to have hit the ceiling.

      I didn’t know support for Indy had hit a ceiling. Do you believe so?

      The SNP offers the only prospect of us achieving independence and to a large extent they are apolitical. Some of their policies appeal to the left and some to the right. But I think they would need to move further to the right to find the balance I’m talking about.

      Moving further to the right would likely lose them the votes they have already won, maybe moving further to the left will kill Labour off forever.

      Recent pressure exerted by the extreme left in terms of the vote-splitting debate serves to illustrate the point: the left needs to bury its class war hatchets and get behind the SNP. (The Green Party and RISE are both on the extreme left)

      “Green Party and RISE are both on the extreme left” I can only laugh at that EXTREME that’s coming from someone with the handle Neocon.

      We can factionalise after we achieve independence: why go down that road now and scupper our chances of ever getting anywhere?

      What does that mean, maybe you can help.

      You don’t walk up to a bouncer outside a nightclub and tell him you intend to get smashed and tumbler people once you get inside. That’s effectively what the left are doing.

      That’s what the left are doing?? What’s the evidence for that hahaha What a sick analogy for a false statement

      I’m sick of hearing aggrieved socialists on here and elsewhere making speeches about the plight of the poor workers and bailed out banks. It’s embarrassing, immature, and boring all at once and it’s also holding us back.

      The only one aggrieved around here is the author of this piece, talk of embarrassing, immature, and boring, one can only guess he is projecting an image of himself due to looking in the mirror too much.

    241. Tam Jardine says:

      heedtracker

      It is strange all this one party state narrative the press are hammering away at.

      We in Scotland are ruled by Westminster. Westminster decides if we go to war, it negotiates with other governments and international bodies on our behalf and decides the vast majority of tax and welfare policies.

      It has the power to decide what the Scottish parliament legislates on and has it within its power to shut Holyrood down at the drop of a hat.

      Westminster houses its nuclear arsenal wherever it likes (on the doorstep of our largest city) and has used Scotland as a place to test and dump nuclear weapons and material for years. Had we voted yes they were ready to unleash and I quote “armageddon” to defend their nuclear weapons.

      All this occurs with just under 15% of the vote for the tories on a turnout of 71%. And yet the democratic outrage is that the SNP have a majority of Scottish MPs at Westminster and MSPs at Holyrood on the back of the support of 50% (approx) of the electorate.

      Strange focus on the SNP. The process of ‘othering’ continues apace. This kind of propaganda has been going on for centuries. The Nazis were good at it, as were the Americans, as were the USSR. Hence we are all fanatics, cult members, nazis and the SNP are control freaks who have brainwashed the population and are ruling Scotland as a one party state.

      Some one party state- the labour and tories voted against us getting control of equality legislation! It is a bit of a leap from road signs to building motorways that can be used as airstrips to defend the fatherland.

    242. Andrew Mclean says:

      Oh come on neo con, that is so bloody obviously a trap, and here’s me thinking you’re smart. You don’t play chess do you. I’m asking because I can see your play before you’re moved your piece. That’s very unusual unless I am playing with someone extremely stupid! Please tell me your not stupid, I will be ever so disappointed.

      Tell you what, it’s late, you’re tired, so we’ll play again tomorrow when you’ve got your wits back!

    243. Still Positive. says:

      Lovely to see you back Robert Peffers. Glad it was gremlins and not you who was the cause of your absence.

      We just await for the speedy return of John King. Hope all is well with him.

    244. NeoconNat says:

      Joe, I’m not aware of any evidence that suggests the older you are, the more you earn. Earnings typically peak when people are in their 40s and 50s, as far as I recall, then they fall once they hit old age and retirement.

      Actually, studies show that people are typically more left wing when they’re young and become more conservative as they get older up until they retire. Once they retire they frequently lean further to the left again. This all correlates strongly with earnings.

      In most studies of voting behaviour and political attitudes, earnings (class in old talk) is almost always the most important determinant. My guess is that is true of the 2014 referendum too which is why I’m puzzled at the emphasis on age and pensioners.

      If you were serious about addressing no voters in high numbers, and possibly talking them around, you would be better advised to target the middle classes rather than pensioners. I guess the fact that nobody talks like that suggests overtures wouldn’t be welcome.

    245. yesindyref2 says:

      @Marcia
      Thanks. Run through my spreadsheets I get slighly different, with Lab and Cons tied on 21 total, Greens 11 not 12.

      SNP 66 constituencies out of 73 which nearly puts the lie to the split list line of the SNP don’t need list seats – they get 4 to make it 70. There’s also a Lothians constituency seat getting a little too close for comfort, and another one that could be hit. Even with 65 seats minus the Presiding Officer, that would make it 64 to 64 – no overall majority.

      And polls can change easily. So the choice is becoming between a lovely rainbow coloured devolved pretendy talking shop – or Independence.

    246. Thepnr says:

      Hey Arsehole

      The Yes side also had a majority among voters aged 20 to 24, 25 to 29 and 30-39, while voters aged 40 to 49 were split almost exactly down the middle.

      But 50 to 59-year-olds, 60 to 69-year-olds and voters aged 70 or older were all in the No camp, with the pro-Union majority getting bigger the older they were.

      https://archive.is/k2oRE

    247. Onwards says:

      Neo – There is probably a bit of both. But the age correlation was high for all income brackets.

      You had nostalgia for post war Britishness. Old dog new tricks stubbornness, and a media campaign that attempted to paint an independent Scotland as a far left socialist utopia, where mid earners would be taxed to the hilt.

      That’s why I think the SNP is correct in resisting the Tory trap with limited income tax devolution. IMO they got the approach just right by not passing on the upper band tax break, but keeping the headline rates the same as England and Wales.

    248. NeconNat says:

      “Please tell me your [sic] not stupid ”

      Chess involves using your brain and that’s something I point blank refuse to do.

      Thepnr realised I’m worth talking to again. Hi Thepnr, good to see you find my comments engaging. I might have predicted that you’d appreciate my nightclub analogy, it’s a nice metaphor.

      Im not arguing that the SNP need to be right wing. I’m arguing that left and right politics needs to be removed from the independence argument. The extent to which the SNP would need to move to the right in order to become politically neutral should be regarded as a correction; they are too left wing for a lot of people.

    249. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      That’s disgraceful, you missed a tasty bit from NeoconBat

      This fact has been quite well hidden and this is probably the first time most of you will have seen it in writing.

      LOL. Hidden? First time?

    250. Dr Jim says:

      Support for Independence nose dives after SNP vote crumbles
      Shouts John Mckay

      Is this the end of the SNPs ambitions for an Independent Scotland after their share of the vote hits a record low
      Smirks Union Jackie Bird

      Has the bubble burst on Nicola Sturgeons desire for separatism
      Says The Guardian

      SNP Crushed by vote defeat The people of Scotland have spoken
      Blares the Daily Record

      All accompanied by pictures of a head down dejected looking FM and that defeated looking picture of Alex Salmond in his car after the Referendum they used to show at every opportunity,accompanied by Saltires on the ground at George Square, young girls in tears with Saltires smudged on their anguished faces and probably some rain and puddles to go with it

      This is how the media will portray it and probably worse….For Weeks…Every Day…On every news channel

      So sure don’t vote SNP what’s the difference
      I’m sure there’ll be somebody else

      Won’t there?

    251. Returnofthemac says:

      I know I shouldn’t but I have watched the last few QT’s. It could just be ‘Dundee’ audiences they have bussed in, but the vast majority of these audiences are most definitely Brexit voters. The panel tonight 3 for leaving (not counting Dimblebum) 2 remain.
      Indyref2 may come round quicker than we think.

    252. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, I’m just wondering what happens if Lab and Con are tied in 2nd place.

      Pistols at dawn?

    253. NeconNat says:

      Yes, onwards, I’m aware. It’s good to look at the extremities in statistics and find patterns. There are undoubtedly many variables in play and worth considering.

      Age is a factor for sure but earnings is more important. If you look at young people who are high earners you see support for independence is low there. Basically middle and upper class people in all age groups were against independence.

      I happen to know plenty of old people who voted yes and I bet most people on here do too. I bet very few know many rich people that voted yes though.

    254. louis.b.argyll says:

      Great posts here today…

      They know, that we know,
      That the market worshipping,
      Westminster government,
      Is screwing us.

      So the people of Scotland,
      Speak up for themselves,
      Argue the issues,
      So that they know,
      That we know.
      That they know.

      The trüth will out.
      And we will will it.

    255. NeconNat says:

      Indyref2, can you name one newspaper that has broken down the 2014 indyRef results based on earnings? There are a couple of vague references but no serious analysis.

      Yet the emphasis on pensioners is everywhere. In every newspaper.

    256. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @20:47 said:

      It has to become crystal clear and accepted by everyone that this is (probably) as far as devolution is going to take up. …

      There are still believers in DevoMax out there.

      Yes on both counts. There were ~18,000 individual submissions to Smith and although only a small fraction were made public in full, I would be willing to bet that the vast majority went much further than the eventual miserable outcome, on a whole spectrum from brief ambition to very great detail. That was the last chance saloon for devomax, in my opinion.

      Prof. Curtice in his recent lecture (the video of which may be out toward the end of next week, I’m told) showed a graph which (I seem to recall) showed the support for devomax as being just a tad ahead of support for full independence, so there is obviously still a lot of convincing to do. That’s what the SNP seem to clearly understand. But the facts, as presented to people such as in The Little Black Book, will provide a definite tail wind for the independence case.

      But the opposition is hardening. Armoured Fighting Vehicle Ruth, in her interview with Ponsonby on STV tonight, was straining to twist the SNP manifesto’s recognition that a majority has yet to be won over, claiming that this amounts to a lack of a mandate for indyref2 during the next 5 years. Clearly a carefully-prepared position. She will apparently advise Cameron [or whoever replaces him, very likely] to tell Nicola to “take a hike”. No indyref2, no matter what level of support in Scotland such a proposition might have in that time.

      So much for democracy and the sovereignty of the people. If you ever doubted that Scotland is a British colony in Tory Unionist eyes, her interview is certain confirmation of it.

    257. dakk says:

      Glad to see you back Robert Peffers.

      Sir,I salute your indefatiguability.

      As some wee fat wet fart English nationalist once said.

    258. HandandShrimp says:

      The race for second place seems to be dead heat – mainly because Labour have joined the Tories on the 17/18% mark.

    259. Joemcg says:

      Well Neo having traipsed miles round Edinburgh leafleting canvassing manning stalls for months and this is by no means the acid test the more affluent areas were definitely not in the yes camp. I bet that mirrored the rest of Scotland too. As I’ve said before I worked in morningside during that period and there was a plethora of no thanks posters in that area it’s always pissed me off that at 6 am in then morning every single one had been taken out of those nawbaggers windows, cowards.

    260. NeconNat says:

      Thepnr, I think you should stick to impassioned speeches and leave the numbers to the brainy guys.

      The link you provided basically serves to contradict the point you try to make. Did you read the article? Here’s a direct quote;

      “the highest earners, home owners and people who described themselves as middle class were more likely to vote No.”

    261. heedtracker says:

      Tam Jardine says:
      21 April, 2016 at 11:57 pm
      heedtracker

      It is strange all this one party state narrative the press are hammering away at.

      You have to acknowledge, there’s real world Scotland and the ferocious SNP bad propaganda war going on around us.

      Watched Sarah Smith and Huw Whatisface BBC national teatime news really frustrated that the bally SNP wont use world’s greatest devo powers, in the most powerful parliament in the world, PAYE tax hikes are great silly sweaties, so what the why wont you Scottish types just stop voting for them Hugh?!

      Even toryboy and ultra yoon wants higher taxes to pay for UKOK austerity

      Kevin Hague ?@kevverage 1h1 hour ago
      The SNP have produced a muckle, sleekit, cowering timorous manifesto – it’s big, it’s glossy but it’s oh so timid

      And so does this great historic fraud on Scotland too, shock. What the hellmans is your plan, double fries, extra cheese, super size me!

      Something is UKOK up.

      Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall Apr 19
      .@JeyyLowe as GERS shows independence isn’t answer to austerity & you won’t use devolved powers to end it, just what the hell is your plan?

    262. Ian Brotherhood says:

      As good a time as any to leave this here…

      Little Shop Of Horrors, ‘Feed Me’ –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ea5jKFGgUw

    263. yesindyref2 says:

      @NeconNat
      I’m guessing you’ve never looked at the data tables for opinion polls.

    264. NeconNat says:

      Joe, I guessed as much.

      The middle classes are the most conservative people you will meet. The perplexing thing is that in Scotland most of the middle class rely on the public sector for their earnings and lifestyles; you’d think they’d support leftist parties like the SNP, but no.

    265. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Here’s the archived page for the Daily record poll story.

      http://archive.is/dVZt4

    266. Onwards says:

      @Thepnr

      I quoted the points I agreed with. A lot of the rest was provocative as I implied. It’s clear NCN is here in the run up to an election to turn off lurkers and provoke more Lokis and more division by taking an arrogant far right tack on things.

      However, I do agree that more indy support can be gathered from the middle ground than the unconverted radical left.
      The unionist press tried to make it into a class and snobbery issue. It was a huge aspect of their campaign. Just as much as the economic argument.
      There was a attempt to portray all YES campaigners as shouty, far left, street protesters, and abusive extremist ‘cybernats’. And it succeeded in putting a lot of people off.

      I remember all the one-sided stories about billboards getting vandalised. The BBC protesters portrayed as an angry mob.. Many people had a right to be angry, but this anger was used against them.

      All part of painting a picture of an independent Scotland as a socialist backwater driving away business, with a parliament full of Tommy Sheridan’s standing on tables and yelling at comrades.

      I remember Jim Murphy deliberately winding up the crowd, pretty much calling people nazis, all to provoke a reaction. At one stage he even walked into a placard, knowing how the unionist tabloids would portray the photograph.

      If there is a new campaign for independence starting this summer, I think this all needs to be considered.

    267. NeoconNat says:

      “I’m guessing you’ve never looked at the data tables for opinion polls.”

      Lol. I’ll be honest, Indyref2, it’s obvious to me that you rely on interpretation from newspapers when it comes to statistics. Multivariate statistics and analysis is more complicated than simply looking at tables. I’m not one for rubbing noses so I’ll give you the chance to back off in one peace while you can.

    268. yesindyref2 says:

      @ NeconNat: “Thepnr, I think you should stick to impassioned speeches and leave the numbers to the brainy guys.

      The link you provided basically serves to contradict the point you try to make. Did you read the article? Here’s a direct quote;

      “the highest earners, home owners and people who described themselves as middle class were more likely to vote No.”

      You’re a fun person NeoconNat, a great laugh. But firstly you skipped over the but where it shows pie diagrams by age, and secondly you contracdicted yourself when you said earlier:

      I’ll be even more blunt. The more Scottish people earn, the less likely they are to vote independence. This fact has been quite well hidden and this is probably the first time most of you will have seen it in writing.

      GFY

    269. carjamtic says:

      Dr Jim @ 10:13

      1st time voters.

      The word on the street,(ABZ),that is suburbia…….no worries.

      PS don’t tell anybody but includes teachers,but nobody actually talks about it,you know actually discusses politics or anything.

      😉

    270. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian
      yes, I’m beginning to think you’re right. An amusing little diversion while it lasted, but it’s getting tedious, time to get back to the main highway!

    271. yesindyref2 says:

      @NeoconNat
      There’s a lot of intelligent and informed posters on this forum.

      You’re not one of them.

    272. NeoconNat says:

      Indyref2, try and follow a simple argument okay? Empty your mind of all prejudices and consider what I said.

      1) most newspapers and discussion gives emphasis to age rather than earnings.

      In response to that you point to an article that has pie charts based on age.

      2) in that same article however, down where few people including Thepnr bother to read, you find this: “the highest earners, home owners and people who described themselves as middle class were more likely to vote No.”

      Now I’m not saying age wasn’t a key variable. It undoubtedly was. Interestingly, research suggests it was such a big factor because pensioners had concerns about loss of earnings/income. And that’s the point, earnings was also a huge factor, more than likely a bigger factor when you look not just at percentage share of the vote across categories but wider demographics too.

      Remember that many high earners would have been in more than one category and you get an indication of how complex the analysis can get. You can’t reduce this stuff to pie charts. Well, you can, but it’s complex.

    273. yesindyref2 says:

      @NeoconNat
      Oh dear.

      I’m yesindyref2, not thepnr. But thanks for the compliment.

    274. Macart says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Good to see you back Robert and yes the list of their problems far exceeds memory issues.

      P.S. Wasn’t worried about you for second (cough).

    275. Sandy says:

      I note that Farquarson has often been referred to as an ARSEHOLE on various posts.
      I must take exception to that. An arsehole is an essential of one’s anatomy.
      Hemmeroid is much more apt.

    276. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      I read Patrick Harvie’s article in the National and think it’s good. Making a pitch for his party, but then of course he’s going to do that. But he does it honestly without deceit.

      Even this which raised my eyebrow is true: “Firstly, let us cast our vote not only with the party of government in mind. It is, after all, under no threat of losing office.

      because yes there is no real threat of its losing office, even if as a minority government like in 2007-11, just of it losing its overall majority.

      I wish some other articles from others recently had been as honest. Ask for the vote but don’t demand it, don’t tell us SNP on the list is wasted. Still SNP + SNP for me.

      Strange thing happening on the Herald to me by the way. My postings appear on 2 articles, but not on a Magnus one (oil). Perhaps he’s interdicted me!

    277. Grouse Beater says:

      NeoConNatterjack: “And that’s the point, earnings was also a huge factor, more than likely a bigger factor when you look not just at percentage share of…

      Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…..

    278. Grouse Beater says:

      Both votes SNP.

      To do less risks the loss of a second independence plebiscite for the next twenty years, which is exactly what Scotland’s opponents hope, and calculate will happen.

      Is there another political party dedicated solely to Scotland’s interests, first, second, and at all times? The rest are Westminster fodder, desperate to regain control of Scotland to keep it docile.

    279. Clootie says:

      Herald Oil Revenue Story

      Scotland’s revenue from oil before the price fall – zero
      Scotland’s revenue from oil at present – zero

      Interesting that they have run the story as the price starts to recover. The majority of platforms are now back into profit due to operational cost reductions.
      I wonder if we will have big headlines when the income climbs later in the year.

      Once again a narrow focus on one year instead of decades. No “journalist” thinks to write an article about Oil funds for management of the resource.

      …did I mention journalist when discussing the Herald…silly me!

    280. Ken500 says:

      The NE of Scotland (good earning) have been voting SNP for over thirty years. Alex Salmond. They saw the meters turning. They also voted Labour before they lied and became Tories. They voted LibDem before they lied and became Tories. Now they just vote SNP. Still a few Tories going about.

      The ones who.voted NO were the incomers on the East. Aberdeen (Oil) , Edinburgh (Finance). The NE was the only place which voted against Devolution.

    281. Ken500 says:

      Dudley (BP the worst company in economic history) supported No. The Tories destroyed the Oil Sector. Dudley gets £14Million remuneration. Voted against by the shareholders. The Russians wanted to put him in jail for fraud.

      The Tories tried to destroy the Oil & Gas sector. They taxed the Oil sector at 60/80% when prices had fallen 75%. Losing thousands of jobs. It should be taxed in relation to price. It is still 40%.

      Scotland still raised the same revenues, without Oil, £54Billion. The U.K raised £515Billion. The rest of the U.K raised £461Billion divide by 11 (11/12 pop) = £42Billion (pro rata). The rest of the U.K. borrows and spends £95Billion more (£75Billion + £20Billion deficit)

      Scotland has to pay £4Billion in debt repayments it doesn’t borrow or spend. Lost £4Billion a year in Oil revenues. (£20Billion) £1Billion on Trident/illegal wars. A tax on ‘loss leading’ drink £1Billion. £3Billion? on tax evasion. HMRC not fit for purpose. = £13Billion which could be better spent.

      Northern Ireland (2million) raises £28Billion and gets £14Billion (50%) more = £42Billion (Norwegian levels)

      Scotland raises £54Billion + £9Billion could be better spent = £63Billion. If Scotland borrowed 1/6 – £11Billion (same as the rest of the U.K) = £74Billion.

      Hinkley Point & HS2 – £95Billion (double it) are a total waste of public money. Hinkley Point a disaster waiting to happen, HS2 will make journeys throughout Britain take longer and be more
      expensive.

      Trident £170Billion. Totally obsolete.

      If Oil on the West was developed (with no alternative) and TTIP (£8Billion) Scotland could have full employment. Fracked Gas is being imported into Grangemouth and produced in England without a separate distribution system. Scotland is half empty. There will be places it is safe to frack Gas. Scotland meets the 2% reduction targets. There is a £2Billion deal of Alexander’s of Falkirk with the Chinese for electrified buses.

      The Scottish Gov should demand the same settlement as NI £54Billion + £27Billion (50%) = £81Billion. Norewegian levels.

      NI gets more for bigotry, sectarianism and breaking UK Law for Unionist votes in Westminster.

      Vote SNP x two. Vote for FFA/Independence.

    282. Ken500 says:

      Westminster, US and France have been interfering in the Middle East for over 100 years. Balfour Agreement 1917. Illegally blowing countries to bits. Creating the biggest refugee crisis in Europe since the 11WW. The other countries in Europe have to sort out the crisis costing £Billions. Westminster the US and France refuse to take their share of refugees. Cameron, Obama and Hollande are criminals. Reports are being released of Saudi Arabian Gov involvement in 9/11.

      Where is the Chilcot Report?

    283. Ken500 says:

      Obama didn’t advocate IR returning to Westminster rule but interfered in the Scottish Referendum. The American War of Independence. The right to self determination. Scots were among the founding fathers and founded other leading American Institutions.

      Scottish invention TV and telephone led on to the telecommunication – Internet. US companies now evade taxes worldwide, including in Europe.

    284. One_Scot says:

      Neo mate, had your number right from the start. Don’t give up the day job. Lol.

      The only thing that puzzles me is why anyone is still entertaining you.

      Oh, and did I forget to mention, make sure you vote SNP x 2, you wouldn’t want the SNP to miss out on that majority, would you.

    285. Breeks says:

      I’ve never been a Devo-max supporter, but it’s premature to forget about it. Next referendum, and there will be a next referendum, it will all be wheeled out again as a sop to the undecided fence sitters. I could be quite nippy, and say those who couldn’t make up their mind were not the most sophisticated amongst us, and they will still be fair game for dubious promises and baseless reassurances to soften the case for Unionism.
      I have no time for Devo-max, but with one big caveat, – broadcasting.

      Don’t misunderstand, I wouldn’t sell Scotland short of anything just to earn leverage over broadcasting, but I would very definitely place Broadcasting in a category all by itself, and pursue every possible avenue to secure independent broadcasting and break the stranglehold of Unionist propaganda.

      I hear folks saying that it’s only 5% of people who need persuaded to vote for independence, but I don’t much confidence from that when Unionism has cornered the market for instruments of mass persuasion.

      I remain thoroughly unconvinced by Devo-max, and that relates to broadcasting too. I will never trust any faction of devolved BBC

    286. Macart says:

      @Clootie

      Not just the average journo Clootie, the average bod in the street struggles with the concepts involved in the oil industry or that trends rise, fall, rise again over decades. That thousands of factors political, geopolitical, technical and natural can have their impacts. Were it not for the fact my old fella worked in the industry for thirty odd years and I even did a stint on the refinery side masel’ in ma yoof, I’d struggle too.

      What some folks call volatility, is simply the highly complex nature of retreival and production of one of the worlds most sought after resources. I like to keep it simple when making my points to most folk in the street. We have some, others les fortunate don’t. We do NOT profit directly from it, others more fortunate and deceitful do.

    287. Nana says:

      O/T links

      http://indyref2.scot/sucking-the-joy

      Alex Salmond advocates smaller countries
      http://archive.is/GYc27

      http://www.snpdumfries.org/labour-msp-offered-to-ditch-dumfriesshire-to-give-her-boss-a-job/2016-04

      Anti-nuke campaigners question plan to fly enriched uranium from Scotland to US
      http://archive.is/wdADH

    288. mealer says:

      Ken500 5.53,
      There are people who won’t ever vote for the SNP.We’ll just have to do this thing without them.

    289. Almannysbunnet says:

      NCN the Lord Haw Haw of Scotland.

    290. Ken500 says:

      The NE of Scotland voted SNP for over thirty years. They saw the meters turning. If Scotland had listened to Alex & Co it would have been Independent long ago, with an Oil Fund in the coffers. M15 did a good hatchet job.

    291. Orri says:

      Off the wall prediction,

      Patrick Harvey will win the constituency seat in Glasgow
      SNP might narrowly pip them to the post for the last list seat but it’ll be bloody close.

    292. Marie Clark says:

      Welcome back Robert Peffers, good to hear from you again.

      Thank goodness it was computer problems trying though that is.

      Now where is John King?

    293. Breeks says:

      Oops… Last comment posted itself before I was finished…

      I don’t like the SNP’s policy towards the BBC. They will argue its pragmatic and the lesser of two evils, but I think that is misguided. The BBC is never going to compromise and soften its stance towards out Independence. You can play their cat and mouse game as long as you like, but when trust and negotiation is involved, the game rarely ends well for the mouse.

      Be pragmatic with the BBC if you must, I’m not interested frankly, I won’t be watching, but I would much rather see a lot more effort put into circumventing their shocking deluge of propaganda, rather than the de-facto endorsement which routine appearances on Question Time and suchlike deliver. Get creative. Develop a workaround. Sail close to the wind in supporting our new alternative methods of distributing news.
      I don’t want the BBC in an Independent Scotland, and it strikes me there is no better time to start sowing the seeds of its replacement; a homegrown Scottish news circuit wholly independent from Unionist control. Ok, maybe you can’t legally endorse its authority to broadcast, but that leaves an awful lot of room for things you can do.

    294. Tam Jardine says:

      Breeks

      I recall writing my submission to the Smith Commission the night before the deadline for submissions. Man, it was long (as one might expect) and had taken me ages.

      As I have done on occasion with Wings posts I managed to screw up submitting it- I think I was trying to copy and paste and somehow lost everything.

      I had thought of rewriting it but couldn’t face it. It reminds me now of all those notes to Santa carefully written out in my youth and then ‘submitted’ to the fire. All those submissions to Smith- how many great and eloquent cases for further devolution were cast into the grate to be ‘submitted’ into the great fire of Smith.

      I’m sure you could piece together a pretty amazing set of blueprints for the future from all those submissions. How many were even read?

      I used to believe in meaningful further devolution- I also believed in Santa Claus once upon a time.

      Have a great Friday.

    295. Nana says:

      Good to see you back Mr Peffers. Still missing John King and X-sticks.

      Had an interesting conversation yesterday, thought I might share as it gave me a wee boost.

      Last weekend friends of a pal of mine were at a posh ‘do’ and the talk round the table came to the elections etc.
      When the tories were mentioned, at first folk seemed reluctant to voice an opinion but once one person did the rest piled in.

      Folks do not care for Ruthie, too brash and mouthy and as for Cameron and Osborne, my oh my some brutal comments were made. So much so that not one at the table were admitting to vote tory this time. They were very clued up as to what is happening and fearful for their pensions and care facilities etc. The NHS was mentioned and the attacks on the disabled which they found abhorrent and definitely not what they consider to be British values.

      Oh and Nicola got a mention, positive and favourable by all accounts.

      The biggest laugh of the night was about slab, I’m not prepared to write some of the words used, sure you can draw your own conclusions.

    296. Capella says:

      @ Robert Peffers great to see you back in spite of the catalogue of disasters with the electrics and BT.

      RScotland this morning reports that Ruth is talking to farmers today, Willie is concerned about care in the community, Nicola is spelling out help for young people but Kezia? Kezia is not out today. Instead, Alex Rowley will be somewhere talking about something.

      Maybe Kezia is putting the finishing touches to the manifesto?

    297. Connor McEwen says:

      The big business lobby has made it impossible for the Scottish Government not to listen to its ridiculous demands. The progressives simply have not – and we’re being left behind.

      Second, if supporters of the Greens and Rise think that they’re going to help create a more progressive Scotland by electing MSPs to sit on the opposition benches and throw insults at the SNP, they may wish to think that through for a second.

      From commonspace and Robin McAlpine, Pull in your Claws

    298. Albaman says:

      @ NeoconNat,
      Reminds me of Ruth Davidson, a torrant of words, in order to drown out others,
      Eh, it dusna work.

    299. Dr Jim says:

      Kim Jong Ruth told us all last night what she thinks of Scotlands sovereignty

      Take a hike

    300. Dr Jim says:

      I mentioned before, the parties attempting to lure SNP voters over to their own cause will be treated accordingly
      That means in exactly the same way as if they were Tory or Labour

      #fairsfair

    301. galamcennalath says:

      Survation poll …..

      Constituency:

      SNP 53%
      Lab 18%
      Conservatives 17%
      Liberal Democrats 7%

      Regional list ballot :

      SNP 43%
      Conservatives 18%
      Labour 17%
      Greens 11%
      Liberal Democrats 7%
      UKIP 4%

      With the list down to 43% the SNP will need that 53% of constituencies for a majority.

      Greens clearly getting the difference from SNP supporters. Or, Green supporters giving the SNP their constituency vote?

      At 4% UKIP could see a seat or two in some regions. FFS Scotland!

      Rise? Who?

    302. Grouse Beater says:

      Hollywood gossip just in:

      Abespal website and society is to close – if you’ve never heard of it there’s a reason. It’s a secretive group of Republican movie stars and producers who meet to vent right-wing dogma and bigotry, and listen to Tea Party lectures.

      Members include Jon Voight, Jerry Bruckheimer and Kelsey Grammer among 1,500 members – made an abrupt announcement: it was dissolving.

      We were told Hollywood is a left-wing stronghold. Ha ha! They claim to have evolved an international network of supporters – that’ll be neo-con economists and politicians who espouse fantasy economics, and believe small countries should be bombed free of their inhabitants – that is, any country smaller than the USA. (China is safe.)

    303. Flower of Scotland says:

      Robert Peffers, you were missed!

      Sorry will never vote Green. I don’t trust them and Independence is not at the top of their agenda.
      It’s at the top of my agenda!

      Must hurry because Nicola is making us a wee visit in Cupar today.

    304. Grouse Beater says:

      And Abespal being a good patriotic right-wing America uber alles society … applied for tax exempt status.

      On a different subject…

      I enjoyed your post, Breeks.

    305. Just a great piece Rev.

    306. NeoconNat says:

      Nobody wants to give the issue too much emphasis, but earnings was a bigger factor than age in explaining levels of No voting in 2014. Fine to blame the poor pensioners but not the managerial classes in the public sector it seems.

      It shows up everywhere in multivariate regression analysis, as those in the know know.

      I suppose people don’t want to strip their support for independence of the leftist rhetoric. Hard to imagine Grouse Beater and others having much to say if you subtract the eulogies to Marx.

      It sounds contradictory, campaigning on leftist slogans but not willing to analyse the results from a class standpoint. It isn’t though. If you analyse from a class or earnings standpoint our failure can be directly attributed to the loony left brigade.

      I’ll end where I started: the independence argument needs to be apolitical and above all this.

    307. Brian Powell says:

      caltonjock.

      We said from the beginning that the Ref14 No vote was a Tory victory, but Labour was to busy screaming and cheering to listen. Now they will be screaming in a different way.

      The signs were clear from what was happening in England: Labour Councils complaining the Tories were favouring Tory Councils.

      Even those Labour Councils who think this by passing Holyrood will work for them haven’t grasped they will be facing a Tory Government in Scottish Office and Westminster that despises them.

      Next stage for us, get control of all the Councils! Labour wanted business as usual, we don’t.

    308. Grouse Beater says:

      NeoConNatterjack: “It shows up everywhere in multivariate regression analysis, as those in the know know.”

      Zzzzzzz (wake me up when he’s gone) zzzzz

    309. G H Graham says:

      Henry VIII – William Shakespeare

      “She shall be, to the happiness of England,
      An aged princess; many days shall see her,
      And yet no day without a deed to crown it.”

      – As broadcast by Prince Charles, 21st April 2016.

      Never assume where the heart, soul, spirit & mind of the British Monarchy & Establishment rests. Despite what BBC Shortbread repeats ad nauseam, it definitely isn’t in Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland.

    310. Grouse Beater says:

      Green is Red

      Never forget, it was the Green party that imposed the trams on our capital city, had the centre ripped up for years, put small shopkeepers out of business, blew over £600 million in the process of installing an old-fashioned system of transportation, plus a few million more pounds on an inquiry, and all when you can buy electric buses that last a week on a single charge, and can drive anywhere.

      Oh, one more thing, sir.

      Their smug party leader duly resigned to spend more time with his family.

    311. Breeks says:

      I’ve a lot of time for Robin McAlpine. I think it is a great pity that so much discussion in the run up to the 2014 Referendum was alarmist Unionist conjecture on permanent loop, when we could have been discussing vibrant and progressive issues like the Common Weal.

      I thought the Common Weal was inspired, and genuinely got my imagine fired up which takes some doing for a cynical git like me. Ok, I know, to an extent the message was one-size-fits-all, but there was talk about a second Scottish enlightenment, and a genuinely fresh perspective on how we could all be living our lives. It was all so uplifting, so tangible, and just within our reach…., and then we voted No.

      I don’t want a new Scottish News media to sully itself combatting Unionist propaganda, I want a Scottish news media to lift our spirits and aspirations up where they belong; be our media, not someone else’s media forever gate crashing the party.

      I admit it, I was cringing, (or crying if you believe in typos) as I watched that Catalan snapshot of their cultural broadcasting on a recent article of the Indyref2 website. They are free to think as Catalans. I simply cannot say we are free to think as Scots. Our ideas are stifled and suppressed, and forever launched in the bleakness of another mid-winter’s day in the Union.

      I don’t want the BBC pretending it’s on side. Let’s do this without them, and leave the dirt behind.

    312. galamcennalath says:

      G H Graham says:

      “… where the heart, soul, spirit & mind of the British Monarchy & Establishment rests … definitely isn’t in Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland.”

      We so often assume it’s just a mistake, lack of education, ignorance, even a slip of the tongue … this routine confusion of England and UK.

      The more our constitutional debate continues, the more I conclude that it is not some passing forgivable mistake.

      For many, it is completely genuine – they believe in Greater England and its entitlement to absorb and rule wherever it can. Blood and soil nationalists with a limitless superiority complex.

    313. Ken500 says:

      The Tram contact was totally mishandled by the Unionists. It was not the Trams per se. The Trans are brilliant. It was the Contract and the way it was handled. A disaster. It could be extended to Leith. The ground work has been done. Edinburgh’s underground utilities/pipes have been replaced.

      The Trams are £8 return – under priced. The Airport bus is £12 return and is quicker. Bus passes can be used on the bus. Taxpayers subsidise Edinburgh transport system. The Trams do follow the rail line for most of the journey.

    314. Grouse Beater says:

      Worth repeating:

      Breeks: “I don’t want a new Scottish News media to sully itself combatting Unionist propaganda, I want a Scottish news media to lift our spirits and aspirations up where they belong; be our media, not someone else’s media forever gate crashing the party.”

      (The channel will need one Jon Stewart type satirical show to help lift spirits and combat a guaranteed decade of recrimination and defamation meted out by the English establishment, until they accept Scotland the nation state is here to stay.)

    315. Ken500 says:

      The NE (high earners) have been voting SNP for over thirty years. Alex Salmond. If it is to be believed (some don’t – insufficient analysis) pensioners on lower incomes voted NO. Age and gender was a factor. Auld womiin voted NO.

      The majority 70% support FFA. Promised. Where is it? Cameron reneged.

      The majority in Catalonia aren’t voting for Independence. 2.2million out of 5.5million Electorate voted for a Referendum. 7.5Million Catalonia pop. EU citizens resident in Catalonia (Spain) can only vote in local and EU elections. Not in Regional and National elections. EU citizens resident in Spain are being denied an equal right to vote.

    316. Grouse Beater says:

      Ken: “The Trams are brilliant.”

      Aye, to a tram spotter. Shame they’re far slower to the airport than a car, bus or taxi, and fewer places to board them.

      Who drags their luggage up an Edinburgh hill (or down) to a tram stop in Princess Street, and then thinks the trams are a great convenience?

      If you live by the line and want to travel a few miles, fine. If not, they’re useless.

      Get a grip.

    317. Grouse Beater says:

      Galamcennalath: “For many, it is completely genuine – they believe in Greater England”

      A rerun is never wasted: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-iY

    318. Nana says:

      O/T

      Last evening Nicola & Derek MacKay held a Q&A on facebook.
      Some interesting stuff covered.

      https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/videos/10154213424499078/

    319. call me dave says:

      Jackie Ballie front page ‘spread’ in ‘The National’ going jungle and trying to holding onto her seat…Hmm!
      Trident for ever!

      What a picture what a photograph

      Deputy Deadwood won’t be pleased.

    320. NeoconNat says:

      Grouse Beater, it’s hard to believe you want to take part in our discussion of the media after yesterday’s outburst. I think you’d be more at home at a Wings Over ISIS forum, if such a thing exists.

      Apply my class filter to the media rather than the “anti-Scottish bias” filter that Grouse and others deliberately misconstrue, and things will become a little clearer for you all.

      The media are and always were scathing towards Socialist extremists and nobody ever accused them of being anti-Scottish on that front.

      Journalists and editors are basically pretty well off people. In their eyes extremists on the left (like Grouse lol) are fair game and always have been.

      When the Independence movement became indistinguishable (as they saw it) from a branch of the Socialist Worker’s Party, the press naturally turned their guns on the Independence movement.

      There’s a price to be paid for all that class war crap and we paid it. It cost us the referendum.

    321. The trams cost £1,000,000,000 (that`s one thousand million)to travel 10 miles,

      that`s £100,000,000 (one hundred million) per mile,

      the trams take in enough to cover running costs,

      that does not include the £1,000,000,000 debt or paying the £5,000,000 interest on the debt,

      they also have a maintenance contract for the 27 trams that were bought even though because of the shortened line they only use 10 of the trams,the others still have to be serviced under the contract,

      the inquiry fiasco into the tram fiasco cost another £2,000,000,

      the worst piece of business in Scotland since Darien.

    322. scottieDog says:

      Remember being in Sweden when the edinburgh tram nonsense was unfolding. The town I was in simply switched their bus fleet from diesel to biogas – run on poo.
      Trams were a vanity project

    323. heedtracker says:

      Its funny when its happening to England now, really really funny.

      https://archive.is/K6yX1

      Stay out of our UK Obama.

    324. Almannysbunnet says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      Zzzzzzz (wake me up when he’s gone) zzzzz

      You’d miss the election, he won’t be finished his fishing expeditions before that. Leaving his bait untouched is the only solution.

    325. Free Scotland says:

      NeoconNat is Duncan Hothersall, also known as Grahamski from Falkirk.

    326. G H Graham says:

      Thanks to Edinburgh’s Labour led council, more was spent more per mile on putting a stupid single line tram system in place than NASA did, putting Orbiter 1 around the Moon.

    327. Andrew McLean says:

      Grousy

      How did it feel to have your leg humped?

      🙂

    328. Socrates MacSporran says:

      A lot of talk here this morning regarding the Edinburgh trams.

      Living in Ayrshire, I tend to avoid Edinburgh, but, if I do have to go there, not using my free bus pass is a no-brainer, so, as yet I have never been on an Edinburgh tram, so, cannot comment as to the level of service.

      However, during my years in the Scottish missionary service in England, I spent a lot of time in both Manchester and Sheffield, and always found their tram networks very good.

      Maybe the problem with Edinburgh trams was the SLAB apparratchicks running the show – we all ken, SLAB couldnae run a gird, far less a tram-way.

    329. heedtracker says:

      Trams were a vanity project

      That tram is a new railway line through the streets of Edinburgh. Trams are vast networks in every other cities. In Edinburgh its just a UKOK white elephant on its tod.

      The whole disaster is classic yoonster bullshit. Instead improving and speeding up the existing rail line, like what everywhere else on the planet do do, they didn’t plan any integration, they didn’t build in any expansion capacity and they lost total control of the finance. And above all else, they didn’t give a shit what anyone thought.

      And then you want to see the airport public transport farce that is Aberdeen airport. Yoons are not a good thing for Scotland.

    330. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ boris 8.28

      A few days ago I commented on another link on this subject – it was about the Islands, and somebody got back to me, more or less saying ‘not to worry the Islands sorted this out’ (sorry can’t remember which piece it came under or who got back to me).
      It really bothers me, this insidious creep. As soon as the tories got in I said to my other half ‘that’s it, they’ll find some way to stop us getting Independence’. Can they actually bypass the SG?
      As it is they’re stripping us – they left it far to late to support the oil sector.
      They couldn’t give a flying f… about the steel industry until it came closer to home and now they’re putting tax payers money into saving them down south!
      All those HMRC folk who lined up to vote no – how do they feel now?
      Carbon capture in Peterhead – £1bn grant dropped.
      Subsidies for renewable energy – reduced then reduction brought forward.

      Then this little piece in the National on the 20/4:

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/closure-of-creative-skillsets-scottish-base-branded-a-disaster.16556

      now I know it’s not a lot of people who are affected (at the moment) but aren’t film, tv, video games etc supposed to be our ‘new industries’. So they’ve shut down Belfast, Cardiff and Glasgow but they’ll now have ‘new premises in London’! Something like, close HMRC offices in Scotland but open a new one in Croydon!

      This would be the day for tory canvassers to come to my door!! Please.

      Right I’ll stop ranting now, but this is really getting me worked up and worried. Sorry.

    331. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Andrew McLean Looking back on the posts its not only GrouseBeater getting his leg humped by ncn.

      Whatever you,s do People Dont look into his eyes, no the eyes fur cods sake.

    332. Grouse Beater says:

      By not extending the tram system to Leith as promised, the entire area of Leith and its contemporary housing schemes is blighted.

      All development stopped overnight, Green spaces to be created abandoned. House values – mostly apartments of various sizes, are less than the purchase price, trapping hundreds of young couples enticed there on the promise of a new era of prosperity and respect.

      That said, how many living in Leith need a tram to get them to and from the airport? But at least it would take them around the town and might have motivated continuation of the planned regeneration.

    333. NeoconNat says:

      Liz: “All those HMRC folk who lined up to vote no – how do they feel now?”

      Good point. Most HMRC workers are pretty well off accountant types. Those are the very class of people we need to win over.

      I hope we can admit that now that we have tired of bludgeoning pensioners.

      A simple question: if the Independence Campaign had been apolitical and avoided the class war rhetoric, do you think those HMRC workers would been more likely to vote Yes?

    334. Big Jock says:

      The trams were built for two reasons. Tourists going from the airport to the city and as eye candy on Princes St. Judge for yourself whether these things are worthwhile.

    335. boris says:

      Liz24 @ 10.34am

      Bypass the Scottish government? That is exactly what Mundell and his cronies are doing. The evidence is there but no one is challenging their tactics. Divide and rule. It works. Goodness just think forward to a Tory official opposition at Holyrood. There are now two governments in Scotland thanks to the Red Tories and all who assisted them in their endeavours

    336. Grouse Beater says:

      NeoConNatterjack: “A simple question: if the Independence Campaign had been apolitical and avoided the class war rhetoric”

      Another simple qustion: When are you going to stop beating your wife? (Assuming you have one who will have you.)

    337. Papadox says:

      If you want to see the benefits of the broad shoulders of the yoons you only have to look a the Edinburgh tram project. – Schools PFI project. – housing repair project.
      Aberdeen ?
      Glasgow ????
      What an advert, and it just goes on and on and on. And there’s more!

    338. Bill says:

      Negativity Warning!

      We knew a No vote would destroy Scotland.

      Sadly the establishment will ensure we’ll never see independence.

    339. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ NeoconNat 10.49

      Rather sweeping statement? A friend of our daughter lost her job at Christmas months after the referendum. She was not a ‘well off accountant type’ she was more of a ‘normal civil service type’ and a yes voter.

      @ boris 10.52

      Aye – terrifying enough, but how about UK out of EU and the tories with the bit between their teeth. Stuff of nightmares.

      We’ll be voting SNP 1&2 and EU remain.

    340. Dr Jim says:

      Just seen Gary Tank Commanders interview with Kezia and I’m quite glad she doesn’t behave this way in her political life because if she did she’d do very much better regardless of the stupid policies they make her the front for

      As some of the regulars will know I’m not one really to respond to the Troll types, it doesn’t matter what YOU say, they won’t stop stirring just for the sake of it
      I don’t know who this current one is but he’s bad news, I’m not any smart Alec to dish out advice to anyone but in this case I can’t help myself

      This guy’s a royal keyboard coward dick and he wants to offend because he’s offensive, keep yourselves happy folks and avoid this human disease

    341. Clootie says:

      We will always have NO voters until the state becomes a reality. They then disappear. It won’t be the first time

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalists_fighting_in_the_American_Revolution

    342. Ruby says:

      Free Scotland says:
      22 April, 2016 at 10:25 am

      NeoconNat is Duncan Hothersall, also known as Grahamski from Falkirk.

      Ruby replies

      Ha! Ha! Ha! I thought the ‘NeoConnard’ aka ‘AngraMainyu’ was Jezerna Rosa from Slovenia.

      ‘Neo Connard non carborundum’

    343. The English Yoeman or peasant will not take kindly to an American telling them what is best for them,

      last week a Frenchman politician was warning/threatening the English about jobs if they `dared` to pull out of Europe,

      in Scotland patriotism is treated by the Scottish Cringers and the miserable hack media as an embarrassment,

      in Englandshire being proud of your flag and country is celebrated by media and all its social classes as a great and honourable thing,

      England and St George will not put up with foreigners telling them what to vote and will end up pushing them more to Brexit.

    344. Brian Powell says:

      heedtracker

      Obama is worried about his trade deal, TTIP. The UK Gov is backing for all their worth, and where to stick his nuclear weapons, and not having a patsy to back up bombing the Middle East.

      Germany isn’t keen on any of those things.

    345. Ruby says:

      Big Jock says:
      22 April, 2016 at 10:49 am

      The trams were built for two reasons. Tourists going from the airport to the city and as eye candy on Princes St. Judge for yourself whether these things are worthwhile.

      Ruby replies

      I see more passengers going to the airport on the 35 bus than I do on the trams.

    346. Big Jock says:

      Clootie -correct.

      Some people will be no to the bitter end and nothing will change them. 10 years post independence they will wonder what they were thinking!

      I am pretty sure there were no people in every colonial nation on earth. They just are too blind to see beyond their back garden. I had a guy in my office who decided he was no 2 years before the vote. Not open to listening ,reading or excercising his mandate through logic and reason. People like that cannot be changed unless change is forced upon them by the majority. They are immune to knowledge.

    347. Jack Murphy says:

      Tom Jardine said at 10:59pm last night:-
      “Now Nicolas Witchell is on- summing up the mood of the nation. Was there ever someone who defined the term sycophant more accurately? Even though the royals detest him, like some victim of stockholm syndrome he is all UKOK style sucking up.”

      Nicholas Witchell is the BBC Royal/Loyal Correspondent and just carries on regardless,so long as the BBC cash-cow keeps on delivering.
      What our King in Waiting thinks of Nicholas Witchell:-
      “I can’t bear that man”.
      He’so awful,he really is”.

      This was broadcast by ITN,but I don’t think BBC Headquarters touched it with a bargepole.

      YouTube:- http://tinyurl.com/zhzh3wk

    348. Big Jock says:

      Ruby – Correct the trams were the biggest waste of money since the PFI schools! Labour were a disaster in government,Trams, PFI shoogly schools, Scottish parliament building, Edinburgh council Statutory repair scam.

    349. gerry says:

      Sorry if this has already been brought up.
      “The Telegraph’s Tactical Voting Tool Was Coded To Never Recommend The SNP”
      https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomphillips/s-nope-p?utm_term=.nnlXVP8q33#.kbrpOMRANN

      Deary me.

    350. schrodingers cat says:

      slabs campaign is very, very quiet, not even a barbie pink bus to ridicule this time.

      they know whats about to happen and are distancing themselves from the defeated. even hotherstall cant polish this turd

      spare a thought for baillies constituents, she wants to keep trident, her boss kez, disnae, and south british labour does but their leader disnae.

      well thats cleared that up.

      i think we are seeing some unionists abandoning slab (1 or2%)for the tories, the 1st increase in their vote since 1997, but i dont expect an avalanch, in some former slab areas, voting tory isnt really an option and for many slab voters this is just a step too far.

      it is the remaining 20% who still vote labour who are the key to indy, the shock of slab finishing 3rd will be a tipping point for many. while slab implode, we are still moving in the right direction

    351. Almannysbunnet says:

      @Bill says:
      Sadly the establishment will ensure we’ll never see independence.

      I understand your pain but for the last 300 odd years they have had fairly compliant subjects. Not anymore! The establishment will of course try but now the population is energized. We need to keep hammering away and never let up. We are watching every move they make and they don’t like it.
      SNP MP’s, MSP’s, MEP’s and councils. Representation at every level by the party with independence at its core. It’s the only way to get our freedom.

      They know this and will try to divide and conquer, it is in their DNA.

      SNP x 2 for starters.

    352. Legerwood says:

      O/T

      Article in today’s Guardian saying that the warships order may be delayed until 2017 and some talk that it may not come to the Clyde as previously promised.

      No link because I cannot archive.

    353. galamcennalath says:

      @clootie at 11:34

      John Adams, said “We were about one third Tories [Loyalists], and one third timid, and one third true blue.”

      … by ‘true blue’ he meant pro independence.

      I always find it appropriate that in the American Revolution the two sides were usually called Patriots and Tories 🙂

      Adams’ statement might be rephrased in a Scottish context circa 2013 as “We were about one third Tory [all colours], and one third timid, and one third YES”.

    354. Ruby says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      22 April, 2016 at 11:39 am

      The English Yoeman or peasant will not take kindly to an American telling them what is best for them,

      last week a Frenchman politician was warning/threatening the English about jobs if they `dared` to pull out of Europe,

      Ruby replies

      What are the advantages for the French to have the UK in the EU?

      I bet the people in Calais will be delighted when the UK leaves the EU and the UK border is moved back to the South of England.

      Perhaps I shouldn’t have said that it might dissaude some voters in England from voting to leave.

      I’m not very interested in the EU referendum debate. I have already made up my mind.

      Although it is fun to watch people getting upset by foreign intervention. I’m looking forward to the Pope getting in on the act & perhaps the Queen will too.

      Will there be football supporters in Europe chanting ‘F*ck Off England we are voting NON’

      http://tinyurl.com/nhjk9b6

    355. DerekM says:

      @ Scot Finlayson

      Aye Scot and they only have themselves to blame for feeding them full of lies and hatred.

      Though the stirrings down south are promising even if a little naive i mean imagine thinking the Labour party are on your side how gullable is that after Blair/Broon,they really do astonish me how thick they are at times and as an electorate have no right to decide who governs Scotland or if we should be in the EU or not hell they cant even run their own gaff.

    356. Ruby says:

      Legerwood says:
      22 April, 2016 at 11:58 am

      O/T

      Article in today’s Guardian saying that the warships order may be delayed until 2017 and some talk that it may not come to the Clyde as previously promised.

      No link because I cannot archive.

      Ruby replies

      Is this the article you mean?

      https://archive.is/R91Ex

    357. heedtracker says:

      Ligger Neil’s BBC Daily Politics got a classic neo fascist on his show right now

      http://capx.co/blood-and-soil-nationalists-are-an-embarrassment-to-scotland/

      Its not surprising that BBC propagandists love UKOK dudes like this but its a nice display of how right wing the BBC actually.

    358. Nana says:

      @Legerwood

      Guardian warships article archived at 11.49

    359. yesindyref2 says:

      @Legerwood / @Ruby – thanks. From the article: “Plans for a state-of-the-art “frigate factory” – which it had been hoped would help the yard win future export orders – also appear to have been shelved

      The “frigate factory” was shelved a year ago, when BAE decided to keep both sites open and cancelled a £200 million redevelopment of Scotstoun with the supposed ability of producing 2 frigates a year.

      It was obvious then the 13 Type 26 would not be built. Well, it’s down to 8 already with “light frigates” being announced to fill the gap. Looks like this is being squeezed again.

      The Type 26 would be very good, but too expensive I think to win export orders, and without that incentive it effectively increases the cost of each Type 26 – as does cutting it down from 13 to 8.

      From a defence point of view I wish they’d bring back Hammond, he was competent. Fallon is a fallon.

    360. Legerwood says:

      Ruby and Nana

      Thank you for archiving article.

    361. heedtracker says:

      Nana says:
      22 April, 2016 at 12:12 pm
      @Legerwood

      Guardian warships article archived at 11.49

      Note how Graun dodges even a mention for the whole 2014 Crash Gordon SLabour Project Fear onslaught that Clydeside got terrorised with. Loyal crew at the Graun.

      Or just their usual sneaky creepy Scotland region stuff.

      Or why will this latest fraud on Scotland not harm Dugdale and co etc etc

      “With an electorate still very much alive to charges of betrayal of commitments made before the referendum, this latest jobs threat on the Clyde could harm the Scottish Conservatives as they attempt to exploit Labour’s weakness and become the second party and main opposition to the SNP in May’s Holyrood elections.”

    362. Ruby says:

      ‘With an electorate still very much alive to charges of betrayal of commitments made before the referendum, this latest jobs threat on the Clyde could harm the Scottish Conservatives as they attempt to exploit Labour’s weakness and become the second party and main opposition to the SNP in May’s Holyrood elections. ‘

      YES! every cloud………

      It’s not going to help Labour either even if Emily Thornberry wrote a letter to Fallon!

    363. Big Jock says:

      Brexit, Brexit ,Brexit! Remember this June could still be a game changer folks!

    364. Liz Rannoch says:

      @ Nana 11.49

      Thanks for the link to Clyde shipyards.

      Another thing to add to my list (rant!) at 10.34am.

    365. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Yeah, not unexpected. When the order dropped from 13 to 8 and with the revue pending the writing was on the wall.

      What part of never trust a Westminster promise did the folks not understand? Or did they even care about the consequences? Of course they lied about protecting the oil industry, steel, pensions, HMRC and Frigate contracts.Its kinda what they’re known for.

      They had the integrity of their state to think of and pretty much would say anything to protect that knowing there would be no questioning media to examine the claims or the pledges.

      Still, I’m sure the folks on the receiving end of redundancy in those sectors will understand.

    366. heedtracker says:

      It’s not going to help Labour either even if Emily Thornberry wrote a letter to Fallon!

      If tories get past SLab to second place May 5, its another giant nail in the union coffin. Graun only trying to stop that, with whatever it is that lot think they are up to with their Scotland region.

      Their thing on bikes today is usual Graun UKOK desperate Scotland doesn’t exist stuff.

    367. Nana says:

      @Liz Rannoch

      Read your ‘rant’ and believe me you would not want to be near me at times when I read some of the stuff I get sent.
      Sometimes ranting is a way of coping.

      @Macart

      Where to begin, I’m really at a loss. Almost daily there is yet another reason to get shot of the union and still we have the likes of rise and folks who I thought would know better attempting to split the vote and giving the media ammunition. I wonder sometimes whose side these people are truly on.

      I’m off for a walk with my wee dug, he has more sense than some humans I know.

      and with regards to the next thread, I actually know a family who would have been standing to attention in their living room last night, geez give me strength

    368. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Hammond was made Foreign Minister, and perhaps that was because if Hague was left there the UK would have had a brigade in Ukraine, half the fleet and squadrons in Poland or Germany, and we’d have been at war. He was a complete liability, with the size of his mouth only matched by the absence of any cop-on.

      But Hammond was praised by some in defence circles for his ability to balance the books in the MOD, come out with (be influential in) a credible SDSR where the figures added up.

      It makes me wonder if Hammond knew the UK couldn’t afford Trident and keep up its conventional forces, had voiced this in the inner Cabinet, and had to go. I liked Hammond in spite of (perhaps because of) his jibe about iScotland SDF “1/6th a carrier, half a destroyer, a frigate, 4 Typhoons”. At least he had humour.

    369. Onwards says:

      Regarding the trams, just curious – anyone know why the journey is so slow?
      Why is it still faster from the centre to the airport with the bus?

      Is the speed restricted? Or is it just the number of stops?

    370. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh, haud on a wee minit. Just noticed this from the Grun article:

      A spokesperson for BAE systems said: ““Following the strategic defence and security review, we are working with the Ministry of Defence to agree a revised baseline for the type-26 ships and a production schedule for the two additional offshore patrol vessels in Glasgow.

      “TWO” additional OPVs? Umm, when they announced the 8 Type 26 they announcecd 5 “light frigates” which could be OPVs with a helodeck such as the 3 being built, but was propogandised as being more like a corvette.

      Simple maths though gives 3 OPVs being built already because of the TOBA with BAE filling the time gap, add to that 2 additional OPVs and by a curious coincidence that gives – 5. So it looks to me that perhaps the 5 light frigates are being sneakily provided by 3 already ordered OPVs plus 2 more.

      If that’s right Scotstoun and Govan really are being shafted, and not by props.

    371. DerekM says:

      its quite simple Onwards buses dont need to run on tracks there was a reason we got rid of the trams they were slow when one broke down the track was jammed you cant go round a broken tram in another tram like a railway a train breaks down or some leaves get on the track equals massive delays.

      It was a cack handed idea made by idiots designed by idiots and cost a bleeding fortune and will probably cost us another fortune dismantling the whole thing in 20 years when it falls to bits.

    372. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      I suspect you may be onto something there dads. Hammond is a politican, Hague was a ‘believer’and ideologically a loose cannon. If nothing else, Hammond was gifted with political pragmatism.

    373. call me dave says:

      But ..but, Ian Davidson ex labour MP promised that ships would be built on the Clyde if we voted no and that the big contract could only come to Scotland if we did vote no.

      Maybe he should be asked what happened to that promise. 🙂

      SNP x 2

    374. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Personally Nana, I’ll be glad when this party election is over. The folk who comprise Rise or indeed the Greens aren’t the problem. They have their own hot heads and strident voices. They have strong beliefs and ideologies whether to the far radical left or in terms of conservation, they hold those ideals sacred. I doubt very much they would forego their personal ethics over party elections and they wouldn’t be who they are if they did.

      Most folks are very much middle of the road and that is the ground most fertile for a centre left, social democratic party such as the SNP. Right now though, I think this is a time for cool heads, because I smell a rat in terms of opposition strategy. The unionist politicians, their media and their online presence are seeking to do two things currently IMO, with both short and long term aims in mind. Mainly they are looking to stall or reduce the SNP majority in the short term and in the longer, damage the cohesiveness of the pro independence movement.

      They are seeking to drive wedges and foment resentment between the more politically minded within the movement by enraging one party support against the others in this election period. A little egging on here, some Chinese whispers there and a few shock jock headlines elsewhere. All adds up to the politics we’re all too familiar with in the UK.

      Something I reckon the parties should bear in mind when on the campaign trail right now. Promote yourselves and campaign FOR something, not against your opponents. When it comes to division within the independence movement there’s only one beneficiary when friends fall out.

    375. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Hammond it was who amongst all the Unionist bluster about Faslane and Coulport being sovereign rUK territory for ever and a day, or leased over 30 years or whatever, acknowledged that 10 years was a possible timescale for moving Trident.

      I think he was already being kind of statesmanlike in case of Indy, realising the rUK and Scotland would have mutual defensive requirements. Just like it said in the “despised” White paper.

    376. Nana says:

      @call me dave

      If I recall Lamont & Curran were also filmed at a shipyard shouting about loss of jobs after a Yes vote

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/doomgloom.jpg

      Scottish mps lying on behalf of Tory Westminster, what a miserable shower of useless corruption they are.

    377. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Ironically Neoconblahblah has given a perfect example of what you’re saying. He/she/it has its uses after all!

    378. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      Yeah, I reckon they knew it was a pretty close call in that run in too. 🙂

    379. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Nana Noo dont hate me ah wiz standing tae attention in ma bedroom last nite,tryin oot wan o they vertical sleeping bags.
      Honest ah didnae Salute lol. xxx

    380. Nana says:

      @Macart

      Me too. I will be relieved when it’s all over. I had the same ‘jitter’s just before the GE.

      Someone I know reckons there is an agenda, his theory being unionists have basically gotten back in better together mode with labour agreeing to allowing votes to switch to the tories and they may even be encouraging it on the doorsteps.

      I pointed out to him from what I’ve read there doesn’t appear to be many activists doorstepping to which he replied, they don’t need them as the media is doing their dirty work.

      Aye well it appears he smells a rat also.

      I need a break Sam, we all do.

    381. Nana says:

      @ Ronnie HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

      Thanks for the laugh, glad I was not drinking anything. xx

    382. Big jock says:

      Could someone explain to me why there is no appetite for indy 2 amongst voters. I am not talking about politicians and the media.

      So if the SNP take 51% and 56 mps, 48% and 71, indi Greens take 6% of vote and 10 MSPS, the councils next year go SNP. How can we say there is no appetite for indi 2.

      Latest poll shows indi on 48% plus excluding don’t knows. We went for it on 30% the last time!

      I don’t think the SNP will ever be higher in the polls than they are now.

      This thing about no mood or appetite is not shared by the public.

      When it’s a mathematicial certainty to win is what the media and SNP say. Surely 50% supppot for the party of independence is a call to arms.

      Lets say Brexit doesn’t happen. Where are we going with this Devolution? It’s reached it’s peak of powers. Another 5 years of fiddling while Rome burns is how I see it.

      Maybe I am just running out of patience today!

    383. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Nana, you run your socks off hunting down links and articles for everyone. Its no wonder you’re mentally drained. Sometimes its fine just to show up and chat. Sometimes its peachy to take a break. Everyone needs one now and again. This is a long haul effort and we need our best players fit and rested.

      Give it rest when you’re ready. You’ll feel all the better for it.

    384. DerekM says:

      They are getting a bit dirty but then its nothing we havnt seen before they tried this at the GE in fact the GE2015 was a lesson in how to split the vote they did a great job on their better together buddies in England Labour and Lib dums,anybody for some purple tories hmmmm idiots.

      LOL we arnt dealing with those wet blanket red tories now this is the nasty party and they think they can have us bring it on Ruthie your worst nightmare is coming soon scrutiny.

      And so it has come to pass the red tories have passed the butchers flag onto the blue tories and they will carry the banner of yoon throughout Scotland.

      Dont you just love it when a plan comes together and we arnt even at the election yet 🙂

    385. orri says:

      There’s no appetite for losing another independence referendum.

      Being in a position to call one is what the near majority want at this point.

      Even electing an SNP Holyrood majority on more than half the votes cast is not enough to guarantee a second referendum will win.

      Given the high percentage of postal voting last time it’s worth bearing in mind that if they simply reflect the state of play at time cast then that will have a cumulative effect on the outcome. No need to cheat. Simply that if one side is far enough ahead when postal votes start being cast the other side might never be able to catch up even if it ends up just ahead on exit polls.

      Without something else to push the electorate firmly into the YES side then all going for a referendum doomed to fail will do is provide an excuse for Westminster to refuse to be bound by subsequent attempts. It’d certainly be used to damage the SNP or any other independence supporting parties chances in future elections.

      As to devolution. It’s certainly reached, or will next year, the peak of the powers Westminster is willing to give. However it might take a wee bit longer for that to sink in and be demonstrable to some in the soft-NO side.

    386. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana
      I’ll be relieved when it’s all over as well. It’s a very tetchy, nervous stage at the moment.

    387. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      The tipping point dads. Folk are waiting to see what falls out of this election and the EU ref.

      I reckon that’s why the ramp up in opposition activity. They know if either or both don’t go their way, then its light the blue touch paper time.

    388. Nana says:

      @Macart

      In two weeks time Sam I will hang up the keyboard. Actually won’t have much choice, getting steroids injected into my hands on the same day as the vote. Now there’s punishment for my sins LOL

      Mind you I’ll have an excuse for not doing the ironing!

    389. Legerwood says:

      Nana and Macart

      I agree with you when you suggest something’s up.

      It has gone too quiet. Apart from the constant rumbling about splitting the vote there has not been much ‘noise’on any other issue of an SNP bad theme.

      I suspect that something is being held over concerning the SNP to break about the time Labour produces it’s manifesto. It will be a rehash of past SNP bad stories – take your pick: police, MPs etc – or some new ‘scandal’ that will run for days.

      This will have two purposes: firstly deflect attention away from the Labour manifesto. Attention that would very likely rip it to shreds. Secondly, given the softening up that has gone on about the second vote, make more people use their second vote for a party other than the SNP.

    390. Nana says:

      @yesindyref2

      Tetchy, good word for it.

      I do like Pete Wishart, latest tweet re Ruth’s popularity or not it seems

      https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/723483676458233856

    391. Macart says:

      @Nana

      That’s my lady of the keyboard.

      Strangely I discovered over the winter, that with freezing stiff fingers covered in giant woolly mits, I could still swally a hauf withoot spillin’ a drap. 🙂

      @Legerwood

      That scenario, I reckon the movement can handle. So many shock jock, SNP accused headlines over the past few years, its become white noise. The slow drip, drip into friends ears however, that is harder to fight and the bastards know it. So long as folks are aware of it, then it can be countered or ignored. But its getting folk to watch for it that’s proving just as hard.

    392. call me dave says:

      @Nana

      Had trouble with my computer there ‘Windows 10’ couldn’t get my apps to work or my sound to function without control panel. 🙁

      Eventually had to reinstall windows 10 and hope for the best…it seems to have worked.

      Anyhoo!
      That’s the very leaflet I had in my mind about the shipyards etc.

      Davidson & Magrait Curran… what’s she like! 🙂

      Sorry to hear that your having bother with the hands. We all love your posted links. Take care.

      While I’m at it I see Mr P has returned after his computer troubles. That’s good.

    393. Nana says:

      “swally a hauf withoot spillin’ a drap”

      Where there’s a will there’s a way Macart. I’m pretty sure I could manage a nice slice of cake wearing boxing gloves if I was pressed and not leave one crumb uneaten.

      Mmmm cake, must go check the tins.

    394. Nana says:

      @call me dave

      Ach just RA taking it’s toll. Hoping the steroids help ease the pain, more so cos I keep dropping stuff and it’s causing a bigger pain in my wallet [actually hubby’s wallet but not telling him] haha

      I’m glad to see Robert back and he’s ok. Wondering where x-sticks has gone and also John King. Missing his funnies in the morning.

    395. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana
      I had a knee and a customer recommended Seven Seas Jointcare Active because it’s got Chondroitin, joint fluid or something.

      Absolutely brilliant, even back and neck more supple. Takes 3 months to get full effect, get it from Boots cheapest 3 for 2, pick up nearest branch. To be honest given a choice I’d get that not food, and I like my food!

    396. Big Jock says:

      Legerwood -Have the MSM actually admitted defeat in this election? Expect the Herald,Mail and BBC headlines to be “Re-elect for a winning team” next week……Aye and the band played on.

      Maybe they are using all their new BAAAD stories for the Euro vote in June.

    397. Nana says:

      @yesindyref2

      I will look into that and thanks for heads up. Methotrexate and sulpasalazine keeps it in check but the problem with my hands is exacerbated as I make art jewellery so I’m working with fine materials which can be tricky.

    398. Ruby says:

      When the tram breaksdown it is a nightmare. I have been caught out three times when the tram broke down at Palmerston Place. It’s a very busy junction and with the tram being so long it doesn’t just block on road it blocks several.

      The tram is very slow and and it takes ages to cross that junction. I felt sorry for the person in the ambulance that had it’s siren on & blue lights flashing because it had to wait for the empty tram to trundle past.

    399. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana
      Worth having a look at this, I got through to a physio in days, just needed one session where I found that resting the knee for a few days was the wrong thing to do, After a 24 hour rest I should have been exercising it. Did more walking up and down stairs mostly, holding on to rail or wall then yay, being able to walk up without. Graduated to ferry stairs from car deck and with those capsules, better than ever! Can even run 🙂

      The session or sessions are free, for the self-employed or small business. Oh, the URL

      http://www.healthyworkinglives.com/working-health-services-scotland/about.aspx

    400. Grouse Beater says:

      Announcement from the Leader of Edinburgh Council:

      “I share the frustration of families across the city at recent events, which have resulted in the closure of 17 of our schools. Equally, I’m sure they understand the reasons behind the steps we’ve taken – the safety of our children has to be our number one priority.

      This has been an unprecedented logistical challenge for the Council. I want to thank parents for their patience and understanding and teaching staff, head teachers and other Council colleagues who have pulled out all of the stops to ensure our children’s education can continue.

      Putting in place alternative arrangements for 7,600 primary and secondary pupils and 740 nursery children in just over one week is a remarkable achievement.

      The Edinburgh Schools Partnership (ESP), which operates and manages these schools on our behalf, is continuing to carry out full surveys and, once results are received, they will be assessed and we will update parents on next steps. I want to reiterate that the associated costs will rest squarely with ESP – and not with the Edinburgh taxpayer.

      I intend to bring an update report on the issue to the Corporate Policy and Strategy meeting on 17 May.”

    401. Nana says:

      yesindyref2 cheers for posting that, very interesting.

      Will see if steroid injections help and I’ve been told there will be physio follow up afterwards.

      Thanks again for info, much appreciated.

    402. John Young says:

      Nana Hope you are still on this thread. Like you I have severe RA. I was on the max re. pain killers including opiates plus v high Methotrexate and Sulpasalazine etc.

      I was really struggling and then I was put on Anti TNF injections of Embrel, once a week. The effect was almost instantaneous and the pain was lifted. My joints are no longer swollen and I live a pain free life.

      Ask you consultant about this, it is a very expensive treatment and they are therefore reluctant to put folk on it.

    403. Nana says:

      @John Young

      I saw your post some weeks ago and did reply at the time.
      Basically just a thank you for sharing the info. I’m seeing my consultant soon and will be asking about anti TNF.
      I’ve done my research so have the relative notes ready.

      Thanks again John.

    404. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana
      You’re welcome. It was after a couple of days on my legs rooted in one place careful working I got the problem, I was at the stage it was one stair at a time, Going up, left leg up, right leg level or going down, right leg down, left leg level, holding on to the wall. Now I dance on the spot when doing that work, and I’m a spring chicken in spite of the OA.

      I had to pack up previous life due to RSI by the way, a bit more connected. My little business now is manufacturing, strengthened wrists hurtling 5 litre, 25 litre jerricans around and even rolling 200 litre barrels, plus 25 Kg boxes. Thicker wrists. Never get RSI now, so perhaps an answer to delicate finger work is wrist exercises? Some things the NHS never think to tell you, I was told all about carpal tunnel and tennis elbow, but the answer was to get stronger! I do wear wrist and elbow supports at times, like when using the guillotine, to spare the shock.

      Anyway, that’s enough from Dr Yesindyref2!

    405. Fred says:

      Good to see Mr Peffers back. 🙂

      Anent Schiehallion, there’s a wee howff built into the hillside on the south side of the ben, if it’s still extant.

      Glenmore was locked when I stayed there 30 years ago, entered through the windae. A north facing bothy, a bit dark hence!

    406. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana By the way, no idea if RA and OA are different for that. I’m no doctor!

    407. Nana says:

      yesindyref2 the difference between OA and RA is osteo arthritis is caused mainly by wear and tear of joints. RA is an autoimmune disease where the body’s own immune system attacks the joints.

      I had ops on both wrists for carpal tunnel syndrome some years ago, before RA was diagnosed.

      There is no doubt strengthening the muscles around joints does help, and I do wear supports when pain gets too bad.

    408. Sandy says:

      Derek M.
      Please, for God’s sake, use some punctuation marks. Much of your somewhat intelligent postings lose a great deal of their emphasis & deter other readers from trying to make head or tail of their content,

    409. Richardinho says:

      I think the main thing that strikes me is when the word ‘re-elect’ became something that we ought not to use. Apparently because it’s an ‘American’ word and of course in the British media hating America is considered a completely acceptable form of xenophobia.

    410. HaggisHunter says:

      The UK media in Scotland does not realise that a majority of Scots have a deep or at least some varying degrees of mistrust for their ‘product’, because they still punt it.
      In most EU countries what they are doing is illegal.



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