The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


Later than you think

Posted on July 24, 2013 by

In an extraordinary outburst on TV last night, “Better Together” campaign chairman Alistair Darling accused Alex Salmond of exaggerating the amount of extractable oil in the Scottish sector of the North Sea by 1,200%.

The former Chancellor (who we learned a few weeks ago thinks the population of Scotland is six million, creating an impressive 705,000 imaginary Scots) suggested that rather than the 24 billion barrels currently estimated by the oil industry – and commonly cited by the UK government – there were in fact just 2 billion barrels left.

darlingoil

As BT are a tad wobbly with numbers, let’s do a quick bit of arithmetic on that.

According to a report in the Telegraph in February this year, the UK’s North Sea oil production “has slumped 30% over the past two years to 1.55m barrels a day”.

If there are 2 billion barrels left, extraction at 1.55m barrels a day gives us a total of (2000/1.55 = ) 1,290 days of remaining production. Or if you prefer, 3.54 years.

According to the same Telegraph piece, North Sea production will continue until “2040-2050”. Industry body Oil & Gas UK last year suggested 2060. Alistair Darling has just told us that the oil will run out sometime around January 2017. Readers can make their own judgements as to whose assessment is more expert, reliable and truthful.

Print Friendly

    2 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

    1. 24 07 13 13:53

      Indyref for Eejits #6: Flat-out lying | Still Raining, Still Dreaming

    2. 25 07 13 09:37

      David | Bella Caledonia

    362 to “Later than you think”

    1. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Now Darling is openly taking the urine or maybe the guy is innumerate.
      Just after typing the first line I remembered he was Broon’s handmaiden and chosen one to take the Union into the land of Milk and Honey
      Strikethough not working for me.

    2. Doug Daniel says:

      I the media allows this one to go unchallenged, they’re completely complicit in an attempt to deceive the public. I know most of us would say they usually are anyway, but this is beyond the usual nudge nudge, wink wink misinformation.

    3. HandandShrimp says:

      I said something similar on the Grauniard last night. No wonder Darling left No 11 with Byrne leaving a “there is no money left” note.
       
      There is a wild desperation about Better Together’s negativity now.

    4. sionnach says:

      Darling’s credibility will run out long before the oil does. (If it hasn’t run out already, that is…)

    5. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Maybe he has seen the polling evidence and now knows that Cameron will spoil any of his staged public announcements.
      I am with SS, a deal has been done between Eck and Cameron, and Labour is going to get shafted.
      Darling seems to have given up too?

    6. alasdair says:

      No doubt the Truth Team are on the case and will be correcting Darling shortly whilst also publishing the true figures . . .

    7. HighlandMartin says:

      He reminds me of a double glazing salesman that I once had the misfortune of sitting beside on a plane journey.  Hw would say anything to impress.  It was the longerst I’ve tried to pretend to be asleep ever.

    8. blunttrauma says:

      I knew we should have relied on whisky, or tourism, or renewables, or agriculture, or computers, or finance, or……

    9. Currywurst says:

      He was referring to “proven” reserves. And so just as factually correct as many of Salmond’s assertions.

    10. Al Ghaf says:

      Stroke of luck for the good people of Edinburgh that this innumerate clown is no longer conveyancing property. Of course, unless flipping counts.

    11. Macart says:

      Oh it gets better.
       
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/23/alex-salmond-north-sea-oil
       
      Just look at the weighting of BT/Westminster comment space and no comments allowed BTL.
       
      Of course who to believe?
       
      http://www.oilandgasuk.co.uk/news/news.cfm/newsid/736
       
      This was released almost exactly a year ago and strangely not by the FM. Soooooo UK oil and Gas, Mr Kemp, the FM (ex oil economist). Or flipper Darling the OBR and wee Wullie?
       
      Thinks…

    12. pa_broon74 says:

      Mmm.
       
      ‘Proven’. – Is this the word BT are now using to cover up its silly lies. Proven oil reserves? We assume then that Scotland will not be admitted into NATO, the EU and the fruit traders federation as being ‘proven’ and that Faslane will remain stuffed to the rafters with missiles because that’s also ‘proven’.
       
      We can look forward to many more scare stories which while not necessarily having any basis in fact – which is to say – any empiric value: they will all be ‘proven’.
       
       

    13. Seasick Dave says:

      You wouldn’t think that Westminster would be so interested in such a piddly amount of oil.
       
      Baffled face thingy.
       

    14. Embra says:

      …and all that infernal volatility. Thank goodness it’ll run out so quickly.

    15. Turnip_ghost says:

      Is there anywhere you can go to get an easy breakdown of what makes up various percentages of tax take? Eh, whiskey exports etc and a %of what contributes to the economy. That way people can see what each industry is in terms of the economy at a glance….?

    16. Neil MacGillivray says:

      I have lodged a complaint with BBC Trust asking that a retraction is published and an explanation is sent to me by email and hard copy. The BBC Trust  information line is  03700 103 100.
      I am not holding my breath for a retraction ever appearing but the more complaints registered the better.

    17. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      If you want an example of totally incomprehensible idiocy on this issue it is probably worth getting a copy of today’s Scottish Daily Express. Worth keeping

    18. robert louis says:

      All the bitter together apologists are saying he referred to ‘proven’ reserves.  That is just not true, he made no mention of proven reserves at any point, nor did he even suggest it. 
      Bitter together shown to be once again telling bare faced lies to the people of Scotland regarding the oil.
      However, here’s the point, Scottish independence is NOT dependent upon oil, that is merely a bonus of independence.  Even if there are only 1 billion barrels left, Scotland will still be better off, with the revenue coming to Scotland instead of going straight to the London trough and George Osborne.
       
      Will Bitter together ever tell the truth??  Or will they just keep on lying with silly demonstrably untrue scare stories?  Even I am astonished at how silly and ridiculous bitter together’s ‘PROJECT FEAR!’ claims are getting.
       
       

    19. Macart says:

      Its the PM and the BBC, so it must be true. 🙂
      Again from October 2011.
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15285441
       
      They really must think we have short memories.

      P.S. Is anyone else thinking of breaking oot the bell bottom jeans and platform shoes? Its got a distinctly 70s feel around here this week. 🙂

    20. cameronB says:

      OK, by Flipper’s reckoning Scotland could only hope to collect approximately £40 billion in tax before all the oil has gone. Those exploration companies that are currently chucking money at the North Sea, are going to look pretty silly when that happens.
       
      Its just as well that Scottish Enterprise reported in 2010, that “Scotland’s offshore wind industry could create 28,000 jobs by 2020, contributing £7.12 billion to the economy, according to a report commissioned by Scottish Renewables and Scottish Enterprise”.
      http://www.scottish-enterprise.presscentre.com/Press-releases/Offshore-wind-sector-set-to-create-60-times-more-jobs-in-ten-years-27d.aspx

    21. Ron Burgundy says:

      Only the Herald will possibly pick up on this garbage from Darling and report incontrovertible facts
      (a) There is still lots of oil and gas out there – agreed.
      (b) It will be around until 2050 because industry experts say so – agreed.
      (c) Despite some price volatility it will still generate a shed load of cash – agreed
      (d) With independence this would be invested in Scotland – agreed
      Darling is clearly unworried about his reputation or the verdict of posterity on is career. Just imagine how historians will write about his role in this period in years to come. He will trashed.
      A man who knows in his heart that (a) to (c) above is true but continues to lie is such a shameless way. I find it difficult to understand the embarrassment of a personality like that – he must be doing this for money or his he just the poster boy for the colonial mind.

    22. HandandShrimp says:

      Currywurst
       
      We know what he was trying to spin but the UK Government doesn’t plan ahead on current operational fields and he knows that and you know that. The figure Salmond used was a UK Government one. Darling was trying to pull the usual “we are all doomed” shite. It won’t wash and increasingly people are seeing this bilge for the pathetic contradictory gob shite it is,
       
      If Darling has nothing sensible to say he should have the common sense to shut the fuck up.

    23. Naebd says:

      Darling talking about Proven reserves in this way reminds me of creationists claiming evolution is “just a theory”, except in the latter case you can just about allow for ignorance being a defence.

    24. Albert Herring says:

      In any case, according to http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00428074.pdf p.16, proven reserves are more like 7bn barrels.

    25. DougtheDug says:

      If you go to the BP’s Statistical Review of World Energy 2013
       
      http://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp/pdf/statistical-review/statistical_review_of_world_energy_2013.pdf
       
      Then they give the UK’s proven reserves as 3.1 Billion barrels at the end of 2012. I wonder where Darling got the 2 Billion figure from.
       
      At the UK’s current rate of production it will run out of oil in about 9 years according to the BP figures. Then again using these figures Russia will run out of oil in 22 years. In fact using these figures the entire world will run out of oil in 52.9 years.
       
      However these figures don’t take into account new discoveries, changes in technology or changes in the market value of oil which would make it more economical to recover from the reserves.
       
      From the report
      Notes:
      Proved reserves of oil- Generally taken to be those quantities that geological and engineering information indicates with reasonable certainty can be recovered in the future from known reservoirs under existing economic and operating conditions 
       
      Reserves-to-production (R/P) ratio- If the reserves remaining at the end of any year are divided by the production in that year, the result is the length of time that those remaining reserves would last if production were to continue at that rate

    26. Atypical_Scot says:

      Darling was the chancellor FFS! HTF can he not know how many barrels left is a realistic amount? 

    27. balgayboy says:

      Wow! I hope Darling has told these oil & gas companies that it will all end in 2017!

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/business/markets-economy/oil-and-gas-firms-will-invest-44bn-in-north-sea.21388417
       
       

    28. HandandShrimp says:

      Atypical
       
      Because he has had a nasty attack of the Goebbels? 

    29. Tony Little says:

      I confess I have not given this a lot of careful thought, but what on earth do all these ‘nay-sayers’ expect to do when the Scots wake up to reality and vote YES?  Do they think their lies, misinformation, manipulation, Unionist-propaganda etc. will simply be forgotten?  What drives these people, other than money, obviously?
       
      The only explanation I have is that they do not consider Scotland to be a country.  There is only England (proxy for GB/UK etc.) and the scottish region is just that bit in the northern most part of England.
       
      I hate to imagine what will become of our country after a NO vote.  I fear it will simply be made to cease to exist.

    30. Dcanmore says:

      @Currywurst … you either believe Alistair Darling or you believe the experts in the oil industry.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7435016.stm
      http://www.oilandgasuk.co.uk/economic_report/reserves.cfm
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1024205/North-Sea-oil-half-century.html
      the experts all say between 20-30 billion barrels left to be extracted with current technology and there are still over 200 area blocks still to be explored. Somehow with £££££billions recently invested by the oil companies I doubt it is to chase only 2 billion barrels in Darlings fantasy.

    31. Indy_Scot says:

      The man is clearly looking to change career path from politicis to the comedy circuit once he has recovered from his now impending breakdown.

    32. It is, of course, a ridiculous claim. What was even more concerning (but not surprising) however, was the fact that he wasn’t challenged on it at all.

    33. DMyers says:

      ‘Leader’ of the Better Together campaign?  He couldn’t lead a dog along a road.

    34. Stuart Black says:

      Darling is a master at this sort of thing, he knows fine well what he is doing but obviously thinks it justifiable in pursuit of a BT victory.
      The ‘elder statesman’ tag helps here as well, and the picture is completed by the compliance of the media. I would however be quite surprised if this doesn’t get brought up again, surely even BBC Scotland don’t have the chutzpah to ignore it? Surely?

    35. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “He was referring to “proven” reserves.”

      Bollocks. He specifically said Salmond had exaggerated the figures by 12 times. Salmond wasn’t quoting proven reserves.

      You’ll have to bullshit a bit better than that.

    36. John Lyons says:

      If darling is talking about Proven reserves and Salmond is talking about estimated reserves they’re talking about different things.
       
      Is darling seriously trying to tell us that oil compabies are investing BILLIONS of pounds into the SCOTTISH oil fields now only to extract 2 billion barrels? at 100 $ a barrell thats 200 Billion dollars. There’s just no way they’d invest 44 billion (As reported by the Herald in June) that’s nearly 25% of what Darling thinks they’l get back.
       
      If this is how good his maths is no wonder he F’ed up the economy.
       

    37. tartanfever says:

      If you make the lie big enough and keep repeating it then people will begin to believe it.
      Thats the BT mantra, and luckily for them they have a huge ace up their sleeves, it’s called the entire UK media. Compliant in not taking Darling to task on this statement, the BBC is completely unaccountable and can do what it likes. 
      These deliberate lies may not get passed that part of the population that have decided to inform themselves of a few facts, unfortunately there are huge swathes of our population that aren’t interested and only get their news from unionist outlets and this bullshit is actually believed.
       

    38. Atypical_Scot says:

      @HandanShrimp;
      I think I have an idea for question 2 of the poll. Keeping it short –
       
      Darling, fraggle yes?

    39. Stuart Black says:

      @Turnip_ghost:
      Not strictly what you were looking for, but a very interesting read, which provides a few surprises, and a lot of good information for debating points.
       
      http://www.realscience.org.uk/makeitb/scottish-manufacturing-industry.html

    40. Atypical_Scot says:

      @Rev;
       
      What size of fund raiser is required for 2 minute add on Scottish TV overdub Bert and Ernie from the muppets, Darling obviously the well endowed eyebrow one?

    41. HandandShrimp says:

      Atypical
       
      LOL
       
      Darling had his hand on the wheel when the economy went into the ditch. You don’t have to look far to see what the voters, fairly or unfairly, in the likes of the Telegraph and Guardian think of his elder statesman shtick.

    42. Tris says:

      If Darling is right then the stock markets should have plunged today because the UK, to put not too fine a point on it, is fucked.

    43. CameronB says:

      Should the police not be interviewing Flipper, with respect to his apparent attempt to destabilise the UK economy? Could the BBC in Scotland be seen as complicate, through their failure to challenge him?

    44. Barontorc says:

      I see the hand of McLaren or Ashcroft trying to spin the ‘proven’ excreta uttered by numpty Darling. 
       
      Are they just now dried out husks of Labour’s disappearing diaspora, washing in and out with the political tides and totally incapable of further growth or development, bumping along with Torquil and the other haverers as if nothing but flotsam and good for little else.

       
      Have any of these characters got a scrap of personal and professional integrity left?

    45. Max says:

       
       
      No wonder the UK economy went down the pan with Darling in charge. The man can even count. 

    46. Luigi says:

      You can’t fool all the people all the time, Mr Darling.  Your bullshit is beginning to glow in the dark!

    47. The Man in the Jar says:

      I agree with sionnach that Darlings credibility will run out long before the oil dose. Has he gone to far this time? I hope that this has the same effect that the mobile phone charges scare story had. I know that some undecided folk changed to yes voters on the back of that one.

    48. balgayboy says:

      Does this read that North Sea & West of Shetland oil & gas potential is doomed in 2017?
      http://peakoil.com/production/north-sea-comes-back-to-life

    49. James Morton says:

      I could write something clever. I was going to go for a theme centred around the methods of pseudoarchaeology, tied with peter dale scott’s parallel politics. But in the end, this guy is just a stupid & lazy liar. A sub-prime prophet of pseudo-negativity from bullshit mountain. Using pseudo-maths and pseudo-politics, he is  a champion of a Fiat money system, who cannot see the self evident value of a sovereign welfare fund. The only good thing is that this graceless and tactless oaf is running out of wiggle room. His precious status quo is being pulled apart by the tories, with party has been trapped by those very tories, who are dragging labour to the right.
      There is no status quo to defend.

    50. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Max
       
      Yes he can but usually in folding ones, expenses and houses.

    51. Thistle says:

      @Atypical_Scot @Rev
      Scottish TV Add. might be an interesting idea…
      http://thetvagency.com/the-cost-of-a-tv-advert/

    52. Atypical_Scot says:

      He’s misread Project Fear’s guideline on how many barrels are their for Scotland per head if we stay in the union.

    53. HandandShrimp says:

      Actually just looking at Darling’s body language in that piece, you can see he is spinning. He doesn’t have the look of honesty in his face when someone is correcting a genuinely wrong figure when is at the 12 x bit.
       
      The fact that he tacitly admits that the 1.5t figure is the value of everything in the North Sea (although that should be Scottish waters as much of the oil isn’t in the North Sea but saying Scottish waters would probably trigger some kind of aneurysm) suggests he knows perfectly well the reserves are 24b.

    54. Max says:

      I see Labour’s poll numbers have fallen again.
       
      http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/07/labours-shrinking-poll-lead-increases-party-jitters
       
      Perhaps we should Alistair Darling to comment on them. 

    55. Eco_Exile says:

      If its going to run out in 2016, why did they extend the maritime borders in 1999?

    56. Severin Carrell’s press release on behalf of Better Together, peddling Darling’s slavers lasted under three hours on the Guardian’s ‘news page’ last night before being tipped into obscurity as part of his ‘blog’. The Guardian clearly did not wish Carrell to take yet another public ‘new erse tearing’ moment as no comments were allowed.

      The Independent made clear that they had been given a ‘Government briefing’ on how Cameron is taking personal charge of ‘Better Together’ to ensure the No vote would not be lost while also having a poorly informed dig at Salmond.

      The Better Together strategy remains if at first you do not succeed simply keep doing the same thing over and over again that failed in the first place. The give away was the leak that Better Together are looking to split up the ‘tribes’ within Scotland. The starter was the misinformation about the burning of Rangers team bus along with Glasgow Labour’s new found friendship with the Orange Lodge and the attempt to boost UKIP as a force in Scottish politics.

      Long may their lunacy continue – we are at the ‘then they fight you’ phase of the process and the SNP 18 month lead in strategy to the referendum is beginning to look an ever smarter move.

    57. Shinty says:

       suggests he knows perfectly well the reserves are 24b.
       
      You bet he does, but he’s fighting for Westminster to keep control of them.

      Can’t have Scotland becoming a wealthy independent country, can he?

    58. balgayboy says:

      The SG needs to continue encouraging young Scots to enter into all the related Oil & Gas & Petrochemical engineering university courses as well as the technical trade apprentices that are now and will be essential in these industries future. It’s all there for them now and the future, great rewards if one is prepared to work hard.

    59. Molly says:

      I started to watch Newsnicht last night, where they were supposed to be discussing this. Unfortunately, Gordon Brewer has made this programme totally unwatchable. You learn nothing as he won’t let some of the guests finish a sentence, so that’s the last time as a viewer for me. 
      BBC Scotlands news/current affairs is becoming like the Hootsman , totally untouchable, but without the awareness that Stv is much more accessible , topical and aimed at the viewers. 

      In an Indy Scotland, lets hope there are more Stewart Cosgroves In charge of our  screens and less of the jobsworths because (its taken a while and numerous second chances) the one thing that came across loud and clear last night was, the viewer is the last person being addressed in that debacle of a programme.

    60. Gaavster says:

      O/T 
       
      Just had a wee thought about the supposed leak from John Swinney’s office of the paper on proposed plans for the Energy market in an indy Scotland….
       
      Could this info have been sourced or filtered out the door by our friends in Cheltenahm?
       
      Given they have access to all email traffic in the UK would it be past them to ‘secure’ information like this and drip feed it to the BBC or am I being overly conspiratorial?

    61. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Gaavster
       
      No you are not.
       
      Expect more of the same

    62. ianbrotherhood says:

      The only figures Darling cares about are on his invoices for speaking engagements – typically around the 10k mark.
       
      Imagine spending 10 thousand quid to listen to this belter? Some folk must have money to burn right enough.
       
       

    63. AberdeenLoon says:

      Why is it every time I see this man talking on TV “Baseball Bat” springs to mind 😉
       

    64. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      I believe he  can do conjuring tricks and make Scotland’s beneficial economic analyses disappear up the same dark place from which he takes his own figures.
      Quite some trick if you are stupid enough  not to realise what he is up to.
       

    65. SCED300 says:

      It must be remembered that Darling has constantly said that after the Referendum, and if the vote is No, the whole of the UK will vote in any further powers on devolution, though we know the reality is there will be no more meaningful devolved powers.

      Therefore it doesn’t matter to him that what he is saying is misinformation. All he needs to do is ‘persuade’ voters to say No in 2014. Labour in Scotland is too focused on defeating SNP to see the danger of the consequences of what Darling does. All they can see is that it might stop the SNP.

      Of course there is the humiliation for Labour; success and actions from the SG highlights the scale of failure from Labour over the last 40years to do anything constructive with the revenues from oil and gas.

      The oil Companies are not so concerned about the politics in the UK, their decisions are commercial.
      We need to have control of our resources, to plan for the future, no matter what.

      If we create jobs then the tax revenues pay for the social needs of Scotland. I personally believe Labour has been happy to ‘shout from behind the barricades’.

      I read a Labour activists page on all Labour’s achievements but he failed to recognise that it was not a lasting legacy, the Tories were tearing these down and their was nothing Labour could do, or was even committing itself to do, to reverse damage.
      The status quo condemns us to cycles of Tory or Labour, creating the are biggest uncertainties of all.

    66. Neil MacGillivray says:

      Hitler and Goebbels knew the value of the big lie and Darling was no doubt well trained in propaganda during his time as a Trotskyist so perhaps it is not surprising that he uses this technique.
      See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie

    67. velofello says:

      There two size of billions: a thousand million, 1,000,000,000 and a million million,1,000,000,000,000. Vaguely recall something about US and UK sized billions.
      Maybe Mr Darling was talking in big billions, and so his 2 big billions will equate to 2000 wee billions!(I think). And if the First Minister has been talking in terms of wee billions then he is cautiously understating the the potential wealth of the oil and gas fields.
      Then, I recall vaguely, that a barrel of oil is 38 US gallons, and 35 UK gallons.More scope to confuse Mr Darling and he has a past record of a poor grasp of figures
       

    68. Silverytay says:

      Sorry O/T
      As others have asked , what about T.V adds ? .
      I am up for chucking in some money to bring wings to a wider audience .

    69. proudscot says:

      To paraphrase another Labour numpty, Paul Sinclair (the one who scripts Lamont’s FMQs rants) “Does anyone think Darling’s an arse?”

    70. Luigi says:

      Why is it every time I see this man talking on TV “Baseball Bat” springs to mind.
      AD has already had three strikes (Northern Rock, Financial collapse, House flipping).
       
      He should be out.
       

    71. Training Day says:

      Yup, Darling only deals in proof.  He’s already ‘proven’ that an independent Scotland might be refused EU membership, that an independent Scotland could face tax hikes, that an independent Scotland conceivably may have to pay more in mobile phone charges, and that, in any case, Scotland itself just might have been extinguished in 1707.
       
      I really don’t know how much more proof we want.

    72. Max says:

      Maybe WoS should ask this question in the poll;
       
      Which is the bigger number
       
      a. 24,000,000,000
      b. 2,000,000,000
      c. Both are the same.
       
      That way we can separate out the nationalists from the unionists and also Scottish journalists. 

    73. Dcanmore says:

      With this failure that rose without trace, Scotland is not his country but Great Britain is. He has no interest in Scottish achievement unless it’s within the framework of Westminster and Union Jackery, so it can be called a British achievement. Scotland to him is an archaic term only to be referenced in musty history books or to be seen in the context of a region, North Britain would be a more comfortable term for where he resides. That is why he was willing to head Better Together, he has no love nor empathy with Scotland as a nation or culture so his trampling over both would come with ease.

      With this ideological bent anything that is seen to be of good fortune to Scotland must be downplayed to the Scots, the Scots must be lied to time and time again for the benefit of Westminster. And with the black stuff Darling’s faux arguments takes us back to the 1970s with ‘it’s running out so why bother’ or ‘it’s virtually worthless so what’s the point’, same old same old, and that is where you not only see the contempt for ordinary Scots he has but also the sheer arrogance and ego that believes people should him and ignore what the oil industry actually reports.

      Darling is a fine embodiment of what is wrong with Labour, past and present, and how they destroy the self confidence and divide the people so they become subservient to the Party that says they will look after you from cradle to grave. What they actually mean is they want to control you from cradle to grave, keep you poor, keep you underachieving and keep you divided and keep you angry against what will benefit you.
      THIS MUST STOP – VOTE YES!
       

    74. Murray McCallum says:

      The former Chancellor is not good with finance and numbers.  Despite using the services of an accountant (reimbursed by the tax payer obviously) he managed to claim the costs of a property he was renting out while he was actually living in grace & favour accommodation funded by the tax payer.
      He was forced to pay the money back after initially disputing the claim of wrongdoing.  Why do people believe what this man says!

    75. CameronB says:

      Why do people believe what this man says!
       
      Do they? Perhaps the WoS poll can shed some light on that.

    76. Gallowglass says:

      I’m sorry but where did Darling say actual figures beyond trying to slate Salmond’s?

    77. Holebender says:

      Darling claims that we only get the tax on the profits. What about licencing fees? What about royalties, which are paid per barrel, regardless of profit or loss? What about all the taxes paid by employees who work in the industry? What about VAT, etc.?

    78. Desimond says:

      With every little slip, the inevitability of David Cameron having to take part in a live debate with Alex Salmond looms. There is no other credible opponent. Moore has already been skelpt by Nicola on STV and  Brown and Darling are stuffed and Blair is probably too expensive these days.

    79. HandandShrimp says:

      I can’t say I think much of the so called leak, early release more like.
       
      The supposition that we would sell energy and that the energy prices would remain high in rUK to encourage their own renewable industry is hardly rocket science. It is not that they would be subsidising our renewables as such just that we would be able to supply at the going rate. As the rUK is in the market for energy and as closest available source at comparable price their would be a market just as we would for butter and lamb.

    80. Ivan McKee says:

      @Macart
      Thanks for the link
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/23/alex-salmond-north-sea-oil
       
      This is an unbelievable piece of nonsense by Severin Carrell.
      He talks about the data on the strength of the Scottish economy (GDP 15% higher than the UK average; tax take £1700 per head higher than the UK average etc)  as if its some kind of fantasy future that has been dreamed up by AS and will never happen.
       
      In fact those numbers are the ACTUAL numbers from GERS for 2011-12, so they already have happened.
      Its one thing to dispute forecasts (even when you’re on shaky ground), but its quite another to reality-deny things that have actually already happen and are published in government reports.
       
      As for Comical Ali Darling,  he does struggle with numbers (keeps referring to the population of Scotland as 6m for example).  Scary to think how he got to be Chancellor.

    81. HeatherMcLean says:

      Seasick Dave says:
      24 July, 2013 at 9:06 am

      You wouldn’t think that Westminster would be so interested in such a piddly amount of oil.
       
      Baffled face thingy.
       
      Hmmm!! Well going by Alistair Darlings assertion,  the UK Westminster government is most DEFINITELY up Sh*t creek without a paddle given that they are relying on the oil reserves to pull the country out of the mess it’s in. All the more reason for us Scots to jump ship, cut our losses , go it alone and take our chances as an Independent nation before the UK ship completely sinks then!!! 😉
      After all, we are managing to balance our books with the limited pocket money we get from Westminster under John Swinney’s stewardship and we do have other resources at our disposal, renewable energy, water, whisky, food industry, tourism, production of over 28% of the EU’s PC’s and tablets to name but a few of many!! Time to say a big loud YES .. if that’s all the oil thats left then it’s no great loss!! AS IF!!!!! Mr Darling must really think the ship we’re on is a banana boat sailing up the Clyde!! What an absolute insult to the intelligence of the Scottish people!!
       

    82. Atypical_Scot says:

      @HandandShrimp;
       
      Aye, the small aspect of electrical distribution that seems to be regularly omitted is loss over distance due to resistance and energy conversion to heat in sub stations and cables. Norway cables are fine and well but there will be a significant loss compared to a Scottish supply, and since the rUK shortage is in the main during peak rate, I don’t see the Norway hub selling it at a discount.

    83. Max says:

      Profile: Severin Carrell is Scotland correspondent for the Guardian. He has worked as a home affairs, environment and politics correspondent for the Scotsman and Scotland on Sunday, and as a senior reporter with the Independent and Independent on Sunday……………..
      ……………… and cannot take criticism when he makes an “erse o’ himsel”, hence no comments are allowed. 

    84. JLT says:

      To be honest, this really needs to get jumped on. Surely, some law lord has to say enough is enough! This is blatant lie telling by a politician to his own people. Surely, there must be some kind of warning that could be issued to Darling and Co to say, that if they continue, then they will be charged with contempt of the land!
      Anywhere else; in your job, at another person, then this would lead to a sacking or a charge raised on the grounds of slander. How can they continue to get away with blatant lie-telling? I just don’t get this!
      Surely, the Scottish Government can get a law passed in our parliament and courts. To do so, even if the BT scream from the rafters, all the SNP have to say is, ‘it’s for the benefit of the people. If you are not happy, call our bluff, and we’ll see you in court. If proved that you have lied in court and the people, then get ready to step down and resign from office. We dare you!’ 
      There has to be something to stop this nonsense.

    85. BBC Scotlandshire scooped this story way back in December 2012. 

      The rest of the spoof media is now catching up with the real broadcaster of Scotlandshire!

      “Scotland’s” Oil Will Be Gone in Two Years
      http://www.bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/index.php/city-news/108-oil.html

    86. Angus McPhee says:

      Sorry This is off topic but is there an Actual email address for the Truth Team?
      Clicking on the little envelope on the labour site has led me a merry dance and I thought I’d just ask them the questions I don’t know the answers to on labour policy post 2014.
      seems the route to asking the truth team a question is a secret!

    87. Aldo says:

      Your link ” a tad wobbly with numbers” doesn’t go anywhere but the homepage?

    88. Jenny says:

      Yesterday’s Guardian
      “Alex Salmond criticised over North Sea oil claims”
      Alistair Darling, the Labour former chancellor and head of the anti-independence Better Together campaign, said: “For Alex Salmond to treat us like fools by deliberately confusing the wholesale value of oil with the amount we would actually raise through tax is fundamentally dishonest. He should withdraw the claim.”
      LOL.
      **Bashing head against brick wall**
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jul/23/alex-salmond-north-sea-oil

    89. Ananurhing says:

      This is Darling who claimed not to know that RBS were about to run out of money in a couple of days, till Goodwin knocked on his door. That he didn’t see the 2008 crash coming till it smacked into him. You’d think as a former psuedo Marxist he’d have known it was inevitible. 
      Where does his alleged acumen and gravitas come from? What did he ever do? Apart from ruin the lives of workers, homeowners, savers etc. He’s a political bottom feeder. Pond, barrel, expenses, sphyncters,….take your pick. The man has zero credibility!
      I think Blair J should make an exception regarding the moratorium on ad hominum attacks, and declare open season on Darling. It’s all very well occupying the moral high ground, but sometimes you have to just get down and dirty.

    90. kininvie says:

      Many here are more expert on the O&G industry than I am, but as far as I know, oil companies class their reserves as proven, probable and possible. Even if you strike oil in commercial quantities, many factors, such as finding the extent, quality and pressure of the reservoir, viscosity of the oil etc means that it takes a lot of drilling and money before you can  put a ‘proven’ lable on your reserves. Hence this is almost always a very much smaller number than the ‘probable’ reserves.
       
      If you want to buy an oil company, you are likely to be more interested in the probable figure, because this represents the potential future production. The value of the ‘proven’ is more or less known, whereas the ‘probable’ may contain lots of hidden surprises, both nice and nasty – which is why you need first class geologists before you lay down the money.
       
      Without a doubt, Darling knows the distinction – or he most certainly should, if he doesn’t. Even if he had been up front about speaking of proven reserves only, he also knows full well that behind those proven reserves lie much larger figures for probable and possible, and that a good proportion of the latter two will become proven in due course.
       
      So it’s about as misleading and scaremongering as you can get….

    91. Jimbo says:

      Politicians like Darling make the UK a laughing stock across the world. Economists in other countries must laugh themselves silly that such an innumerate arse was once in charge of the UK economy… and he has been replaced by another innumerate arse.

    92. Jiggsbro says:

      Surely, the Scottish Government can get a law passed in our parliament and courts. To do so, even if the BT scream from the rafters, all the SNP have to say is, ‘it’s for the benefit of the people. If you are not happy, call our bluff, and we’ll see you in court. If proved that you have lied in court and the people, then get ready to step down and resign from office. We dare you!
       
      Yes, because what the Yes campaign needs right now is for the SNP to pass a law restricting free speech. What could possibly go wrong with that?

    93. muttley79 says:

      @Doug Daniel
       
       
      I the media allows this one to go unchallenged, they’re completely complicit in an attempt to deceive the public. I know most of us would say they usually are anyway, but this is beyond the usual nudge nudge, wink wink misinformation.
       
      Sadly it is par for the course.  These are the days in Scottish politics, when a political thug from SLAB, can accuse the best political presenter and interviewer of being biased, and she automatically gets the chop.  It is also the period when the PM of the UK can announce there will be a referendum on the EU, and the media in Scotland do not even attempt to discuss its possible effects on our referendum next year.
       
      On Darling: he is just another Neo-Con these days.

    94. HandandShrimp says:

      Angus
       
      The purpose of the The Truth Team is to tell you what to think not for you to ask difficult questions

    95. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Your link “ a tad wobbly with numbers” doesn’t go anywhere but the homepage?”

      Look again.

    96. Ivan McKee says:

      @ JLT
       
      There is precedent for politicians being held to account for making false statements during elections.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Woolas#Re-election_2010_and_election_court_case
      I am no lawyer so have absolutely no idea how bad it needs to get before this route becomes available.
      I think you would struggle to make a case on the basis of this specific statement by AD, as the whole thing is a discussion based on a forecast anyway.
      There may be some other cases where blatant untruths are told however where it may be more applicable.
      I’m sure others on here will have more knowledge / experience of how that could work.

    97. Murray McCallum says:

      It’s laughable if it weren’t all so very serious.  How arrogant and out of touch does an organisation have to be in order to create “The Truth Team”?

    98. You’d think after all the expose’s of the #projectfear rubbish, they’d be looking at trying something different, but after all it is really true, that there is NO positive case for the Union and fear is all they have.
      they’re trying to trash Scotland’s oil and gas industry which is a massive bonus to a Scotland free from the Union’s greedy grasp.

    99. Luigi says:

      Remember the hassle Alex Salmon received from the MSM, on his response to a question on legal advice about EU membership, after the Andrew Neil interview? 
       
      Now this joker spouts blatant lies and not a peep from the MSM.
       
      So much for their British sense of fair play.

    100. JLT says:

      Jiggsbro says:
       

      Yes, because what the Yes campaign needs right now is for the SNP to pass a law restricting free speech. What could possibly go wrong with that?
      —————–
      Nah…sorry, don’t agree with you on this one, Jiggsbro. If that was the case, we would have every Tom, Dick and Harry using that as an excuse in the courts.
      Both sides were warned by the Westminster Select Committee (or something like that I believe) not that long ago – all the Scottish Government needs to do is run to the Select Committee and place a complaint.
      This has to stop. Project Fear is getting worse, and yet no one, from any official body is stopping it. I think the SG need to start raising this as an issue. If BT mump about it too loudly, then it is only going to register with the Scottish people that something isn’t right, and then they might just dig deep themselves, which might put the fear back into the BT Team. That would be BT’s real fear …the Scottish people looking for the answers themselves, and then getting angry once the real truth surfaces. Alistair Darling would be flogged for his blatant lie telling!
       

    101. Jamie Arriere says:

      Well, if Darling is not a member of the Truth Team, does that prove he’s telling lies (Yes, we can all use twisted bollocks logic if we want to). Goodness me, this is desperate stuff. So is there a precedent for geological surveyed oilfields disappearing into thin air?
       
      Oh, and if BT are reading this, I’ll give you a tip – I’m in the “Shout ‘Fuck Off’ and hang up the phone” Tribe!!

    102. Alba4Eva says:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15285441
      BP chief executive Bob Dudley; “After some years of decline, we now see the potential to maintain our production from the North Sea at around 200,000-250,000 barrels of oil equivalent a day until 2030.”
      Some more arithmetic… taking the lowest figure of 200,000 B/d x 365 x 17 years = 1.241 Billion Barrels from BP alone till 2030. 
      Then consider if there are only 2 billion barrels left, then what are Shell, Total, Chevron, Talisman, Exxon-Mobil etc etc. doing in the North Sea? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_and_gas_fields_of_the_North_Sea )

    103. Jiggsbro says:

      Nah…sorry, don’t agree with you on this one, Jiggsbro. If that was the case, we would have every Tom, Dick and Harry using that as an excuse in the courts.
       
      If what was the case?

    104. Dcanmore says:

      Funny how Darling and his team at the Ministry of Truth believe that oil is negative for Scotland BUT oil is the reason for Westminster to keep Scotland in the Union and therefore oil is good for Britain.
       
      In this former chancellor’s world two plus two equals five. Because to him that is the truth. Scotland’s oil is bad for Scotland and its people, but Britain’s oil is good for Britain and its people, to him that is the truth.

    105. beachthistle says:

      I am becoming increasingly convinced that the actual drivers and coordinators of Project Fear are within BBC Scotland, not in the Better Together office. Project Fear’s main avenues of attack/communication channels are Reporting Scotland and GMS. The half-baked blether-together etc. schemes are smokescreens fronted by numpties and apparatchiks.
      I think we have to try to draw attention to who is running BBC Scotland’s News and Current Affairs output in our poll. As such I would recommend using something along the lines of the ‘John Boothman’ question suggested in the ‘Let’s Do A Thing Thread’.
      The time is overdue for the Scottish public to be made aware of who is calling the shots re BBC Scotand’s indy-ref related output, and of his political background (e.g. Chair of Labour Students 1981) and allegiances…
       

    106. Morag says:

      Two plus two does equal five, for sufficiently large values of two.
       
      Darling is much worse than that.
       
      (Hint:  2.4 + 2.4 = 4.8, then you round everything to whole numbers.)

    107. Luigi says:

      I can see a TV licence non-payment protest on the horizon. There is growing support for one.  Someone well-kown just has to take the lead on this and the snowball could grow rapidly.

    108. Neil MacGillivray says:

      A non payment of TV Licence campaign is needed – the existence of Newsnight Scotland as the Propaganda Wing of Project Fear and the abject sycophancy of the coverage of the recent birth in London must persuade many to join in.

    109. Jimbo says:

      Someone well-kown just has to take the lead on this and the snowball could grow rapidly.
       
      You mean like the Tommy Sheridan led ‘Can pay – won’t pay’ anti poll tax campaign ? Who would stick their head above the parapet with this in the knowledge that the BBC and Westminster establishment would come out all guns blazing to destroy their character? It’s a good idea, but I can’t think of any big personality who’d be willing.

    110. You don’t need a TV licence to view catch up services which is how I now view most of the telly I watch. Bye bye TV licence.
       
      Anyhoo, I’ve pinched your Stag Night cartoon, Stu for my wonderings about how long Tory donors with put up with the tenth rate, one trick, Labour hack ponies at Project Fear: How Long has the Gorbals Goebbels Got?

    111. beachthistle says:

      @Luigi @Neil Macgillivary
      Re a TV Licence campaign, I’ve been suggesting the setting up of a Scottish Broadcasting Trust Fund for a few months now, with a lot of positive feedback but as yet no volunteers with the expertise required.
      If people paid collectively into a transparently managed Fund (maybe even just a bespoke paypal account?) then that would quickly draw attention to the numbers of people involved/supporting, a higher media profile and more political leverage (e.g. asking for an OSCE/ODIHR media monitor).
      So as to avoid the possibility of legal challenges, the Scottish Broadcasting Trust Fund will only ask for TV Licence equivalent payments to be made by those who think they don’t actually need to pay for a TV Licence (e.g. as only watch non-live broadcasts on-line) or for future (not currently due) TV Licence payments. If anybody wanted to ignore these criteria and pay their currently due TV Licence fee into the Scottish Broadcasting Trust Fund that would be up to them…

    112. themadmurph says:

      I’m glad I read through this first.  Otherwise I was going to post that clown Darling doesn’t even know the population of Scotland, but it had already been covered by @IvanMcKee
      It really beggars belief that they get to spout this stuff unchallenged.
      If he was saying this to me, I would be coming back with – you don’t even know the population of your own country, that makes everything you say highly questionable and open to ridicule, you arse!

    113. Macart says:

      @Ivan McKee
       
      Its a beauty isn’t it?
       
      Any roads up (just for Morag), if you’re looking for some links other than the UK oil and Gas which I stuck up, here’s a couple of other beezers which make a complete nonsense of Darling’s ludicrous claims.
       
      http://www.scdi.org.uk/pi/2013/2011-2012Oil-Gas-Survey(May2013-SDI-SE-SCDI).pdf
       
      For this next one, click on the link oil and gas strategy which will take you to a downloadable PDF.
       
      http://www.hie.co.uk/about-hie/news-and-media/archive/new-oil-and-gas-strategy-published.html
       
      Mr Darling has nowhere to hide in our shiny internet era.

    114. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Roddy
       
      Just been onto your blog and saw this, which I cannot comment upon.
      Standing for the moment that their ‘grassroots’ campaign has a national regional organiser (sounds more astroturf than grassroots to me), we got to meet the man himself, only to find that Craig Murray has all the charisma of a second rate Betterware salesman. 
       
      Is that Craig Murray, the independence supporter, ex Ambassador to Khazakstahn and ex negotiator on sea boundaries who wants to work for the SNP on this, during the two year sorting out period post referendum?
      Or is there another Craig Murray?

    115. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “http://www.scdi.org.uk/pi/2013/2011-2012Oil-Gas-Survey(May2013-SDI-SE-SCDI).pdf”

      Don’t know why that link’s buggered, if you click it you’ll have to manually add the “.PDF” at the end.

    116. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      If you did a copy and paste and included the parentheses you would get an error. Just copy within the quotation marks and it works.
       
      Glad to help out

      I’ll get ma fur coat

    117. BTP – Thanks, getting my Murrays confused. It’s Rob Murray – corrected.

    118. Macart says:

      @Rev
       
      Yep, takes you to HIE page, but you have to use the link on the page which instantly downloads the thing. Bit of a pain, but at least you can have a read off line.

    119. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Roddy
       
      You should put a contact e-mail in, just in case etc.
       
      Seems I am being a sober wee boy scout Panda today.
       
      I’ll just open the bottle of chilled rose and revert to type.
       
      BtP

    120. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Darling doesn’t even know the population of Scotland”

      Ooh, I’d forgotten about that. Edited in.

    121. Murray McCallum says:

      Given his experience and much of the comment above, I wonder if Alistair Darling suffers dyscalculia?
      “Inconsistent results in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Poor mental math ability. Poor with money and credit. Cannot do financial planning or budgeting. Checkbooks not balanced. Short term, not long term financial thinking. Fails to see big financial picture. May have fear of money and cash transactions.”
      It does seem consistent with his past?  He does seem to like [increasing his] money though so I may be wrong here.

    122. ukp42 says:

       Media lies, are not just told in the UK

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls

    123. Andy-B says:

      The sad thing about, these ramblings of Alistair Darling, and many other fabrications, is the press coverage they get, no matter how out landish the claim it will always receive plenty of column inches and air time.
       
      Therein lies the REAL problem, not only is the YES Camp fighting the BT lies, its also fighting the MSM, who have BT’s back covered, with regards to availability of info., albeit false info.
      If we’re to defeat, the BT movement, we must also defeat the MSM.

    124. beachthistle says:

      @Andy-B
      “If we’re to defeat, the BT movement, we must also defeat the MSM.”
      I think we will defeat BT, but IF we don’t it will be mainly due to the MSM.
      The BBC (and in particular BBC Scotland) is the keystone of the MSM in Scotland.
      The BBC’s only political/accountability weakness as far as the Scottish public is concerned, is the way it is funded, i.e. it depends on enough punters in Scotland (and elsewhere) continuing to pay their TV Licence Fee.
      With over a year to go until the referendum that means that everybody in Scotland currently paying for a TV Licence will have to opportunity to decide whether to  renew/stump-up, or not…

    125. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Double  plus good beachthistle.

      Big Push?

    126. G H Graham says:

      Apparently there’s only 10 years before the whisky will run out; assuming of course demand from China & India doubles and all the distilleries make volume projections based upon exactly what’s currently in the cellar.
      Of course, this is complete rubbish but it’s the same inept logic used by Flipper Darling to boast how quickly Scotland will run out of oil.
      I’ve never heard of any politician in any country puff about how quickly their country will run out of their own natural resources as if it’s something almost he can be proud of.
       

    127. Macart says:

      Here we go.
       
      http://www.scottish-enterprise.com/~/media/SE/Resources/Documents/MNO/Oil-and-Gas-strategy-2012-2020.pdf
       
      Came at from another source. You can now choose to download or just view.

    128. Albalha says:

      Re someone well known to speak out about the BBC Derek Bateman may just do it, now he’s ‘retired’.
      I reckon he has a fair few reasons to be less then enamoured with BBC Scotland. But I suppose it depends if he’ll still want to freelance ….Blair Jenkins on the other hand would certainly fit the bill and knows only too well who’s who.
       

    129. dmw42 says:

      Like many on this site, I have been of the impression that the constant scaremongering and fabrications of Project Fear was to keep Scottish revenues in Westminster to pay for vanity projects, keep a permanent seat at the ‘big table’, protect the self-interests of Lib/Lab/Con politicians, and all the other ‘stuff’ we’ve previously highlighted.
       
      Although I’m not a natural ‘conspiracy theorist’, the more absolute unchallenged nonsense that those representing the union come away with, the more I’m convinced there’s a, well, conspiracy.
       
      On the transfer of sovereignty to Holyrood, it will be incumbent upon Westminster to transfer all documents, briefings and intelligence relating to Scotland. I’m now of the opinion that there are numerous ‘smoking guns’ being kept from the public domain – Dennis Healey has already confirmed that his government misled and underplayed the quantity of oil, what else has been hidden and where else have we been misled by the governments before and after his, including the roles played by Messrs Brown and Darling?
       
      It’s therefore entirely possible that there is documented evidence of significant oil and gas deposits under the Clyde, in the North Atlantic and under Scottish soil; that there is further damning evidence of why a nuclear arsenal is in Scotland; confirmation supporting that Scottish assets and resources have continually been sacrificed for EU/UN concessions/acceptance; ratification that rUK could be bankrupted as a result of the potential instability of sterling (and subsequent tax hikes required in rUK); ‘tapping’ by GCHQ of Scottish citizens…
       
      I’m now generally of the persuasion that the McCrone report is only the tip of a very, very big iceberg and if there is indeed a hidden agenda, the BBC is complicit by its continued kow-towing to its unionist paymasters.

    130. Luigi says:

      The TV licence is and always will be the BBC’s achilles heel. There have been always been small, manageable numbers of non-payers. However, big non-payment campaigns have been thwarted by MSM compliance in hushing things up, dealing with “dissidents” quietly. I cannot say for sure, but I think the last big non-payment occurred in N.Ireland at the height of the troubles – all hushed up of course. The last thing the BBC want is for news of a big non-payment campaign. The big game-changer now is the internet – they would not be able to hush it up. What a terrifying prospect for the British establishment.

    131. Mac says:

      In the meantime, these are the kind of twisted stats being posted by a suspect false flag over on the GH.  Possibly an employee of Vital (sic) or a political research for the Tory party. Look at the last paragraph where they finally got riled. This was after five similar posts. Mr Little doing a great job of rebuttal. Jezerna Roza, Slovenia  alasdair galloway • 20 hours ago

      ?

       

      “you do realise that what Scotland gets is a POPULATION share of North Sea oil revenue” – You do realise you do not know what you are talking about. I clearly said I was talking about Scotland’s geographical share of oil revenues (as estimated by the Scottish government’s projects GERS and SNAP). So I will repeat what I said before:
      In the last 20 years, there were 13 years in which Scotland got from the UK MORE than itsGEOGRAPHICAL share of oil revenues in the form of higher public spending than the rUK (Barnett).
      In the last 20 years Scotland’s total GEOGRAPHICAL share of oil revenues was £133 billion, of which Scotland itself spent £129 billion for its extra public spending (higher than the rUK – Barnett), and Scotland gave £4 billion (3%) to the UK.
      I made ALL my calculations with Scotland’s GEOGRAPHICAL share of oil revenues. I hope you do realise that Scotland spends about 10% MORE than the rUK for public spending in ALL years, and that that money has to come from somewhere. And it does not come from Scotland’s onshore taxes. In the last twenty years (1992-2011), each year Scotland spent from £4.3 to £7.5 billion MORE than an equivalent 5.3 million population in the rUK (adjusted for inflation). On the other hand, Scotland’s GEOGRAPHICAL share of oil revenues was from £1.4 to £12.7 billion (adjusted for inflation). So it is quite simple in a way. In some years, Scotland’s GEOGRAPHICAL share of oil revenues is higher than Scotland’s extra Barnett money, and in others it is vice versa. Perhaps I should state also that I did not take into account that in most years Scotland collect a bit less than the rUK in onshore taxes – taking this into account would make Scotland’s actual net ‘contribution’ to the UK even lower than £0.2 billion per year on average over twenty years. Anyway, the total outcome for Scotland is very close to ZERO. Westminster certainly has not ‘stolen’ any vast amounts of money from Scotland during the last 20 years.
      But go on, continue treating your compatriots like stupid fools. It is a very honorable job, tricking people to vote Yes rather than telling them the truth so that they can make an informed decision. After all, this is what the Scottish government has been doing for a long time.

    132. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Alabalha
       
      He will be retained on a part time contract until a some time in the future, tied to the BBC.
       
      That is how it is how it is done with people with sensitive info. He may have also had to sign a [pretty strong confidentiality agreement also.
       
      A shut the fuck up, until we decide you have sweet FA to tell anything against us ,clause.
       
      I had one imposed on me a few years back.
       
      There is always a way around them.

    133. beachthistle says:

       
      @dmw42
      “BBC is complicit by its continued kow-towing to its unionist paymasters.”
      Don’t disagree as such with “Unionist paymasters”, but last year around £310,000,000 (£310 million) of BBC’s funding was paid/provided by TV Licence Fee payers in Scotland.

    134. rabb says:

      Alaistair Darling (and the rest of the Westminster unionist posse) is not fighting to have Scottish oil controlled by Westminster, he’s fighting to keep his salary, expenses & all the other trappings being an MP brings. He doesn’t give a shit about Scotland. It’s just a cash cow to him.

      He will say & do pretty much anything to keep his livelihood even if it meant lying from his back teeth and hoodwinking the public.

      If these unionist MPs were faced with the choice of handing over Westminster to Portugal tomorrow or risk losing their seat at the trough then I’m sure they would be touting the case in favour of Portugese rule.

      For me it’s that simple. Darling & co don’t give a shit about independence or the people of Scotland, they care only for themselves and the lifestyle they leech off the back of honest people.

      I find Alistair Darling to be one of the most repugnant politicians of this era.
       
      I’ve never really considered myself as being a nationalist but by fuck is Alistair Darling driving me to it!

    135. Albalha says:

      @BTP
      He took redundancy so won’t be on any current contract.
      Not sure what you did for the BBC? and what you had to sign? Kevin Marsh (who also took redundancy) at one time the Editor of the Today programme, got a whole book out of the Hutton affair so not sure what exactly you think people are signing.
       
       

    136. mato21 says:

      Just to refresh your memories of flipper Darling (I am going to refer to him as flipper from now on) and his creative accounting
      http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/darling-mp-expenses-claims/
       
       

    137. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      I never worked for the BBC
       
      I worked for a N American company and it is pretty much standard procedure for shutting up people with sensitive information whom they need to get out of the way for whatever reason.
       
      I am sure that the BBC are way up there, considering that ALL their FACES are contractual and on self employed status. That is to say no recourse to public dismissal court cases.

    138. annie says:

      If Alistair Darling charges £10k for after dinner speaking it would be interesting to know how much he has drawn from BT for expenses because he doesn’t pay for anything out of his own pocket.  Would this info be detailed in HoC register of interests I wonder.

    139. Albalha says:

      @BTP
      That’s just it not all the ‘FACES’ are self employed, D Bateman was a staff member.

    140. Ericmac says:

      @rabb
      In total agreement…  I have posted the very same comment on a number of sites over the past weeks.  There are MPs and Councillors who are defending their livelihoods.  Worried only about continuity at the trough.
      Firing people: I recall how people behave at the 100k+ salary level when their job is threatened…  They will do anything to retain it.  They will literally fight to the end. 
      There are a list of people ‘under threat’ due to Independence.  Darling is at the top. 

    141. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Caesar!lha
       
      Are you sure?
      Because that would explain why he lasted so long.
       
       

    142. Baheid says:

      @ beachthistle
       
      Can’t for the life of me remember where I heard that figure, (£310 million), the other day. 
      But the rest of the comment was that BBC Scotlands budget was something like £84 m.

      Naebad eh !, put in 310 and get back 84.
       
       

    143. muttley79 says:

      @rabb
       
      Alaistair Darling (and the rest of the Westminster unionist posse) is not fighting to have Scottish oil controlled by Westminster, he’s fighting to keep his salary, expenses & all the other trappings being an MP brings. He doesn’t give a shit about Scotland. It’s just a cash cow to him.
      He will say & do pretty much anything to keep his livelihood even if it meant lying from his back teeth and hoodwinking the public.
       
      Spoken from the heart Rabb.  I cannot disagree with your sentiments.  After all Darling does not even know the population of Scotland, that is how much he cares about the nation.  Your second sentence sums up the whole modus operandi of the No campaign.  That is why I believe Salmond gets so much abuse from them.  He is a major threat to their continuing careers, perks, and privileges in London.  I reckon they have never been able to work him out.  Why is Salmond not like us, you can almost hear them say?     
       

    144. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Bawheid it is hundreds of millions for the take
      2 million tele and £10o+ tax?

      just calculate 8.5% of their tax rake from the UK accounts.

      For argument leave out our share of the revenues from the syndiction of BBC World etc etc

    145. Albalha says:

      @BTP
       
      Yes, there are quite a few at BBC Scotland, particularly in radio, Bill Whiteford, for example, is also on a staff contract, and there are others.
      The reason is they started out as Radio Producers then went on to do presenting shifts. And of course when they started out as producers Staff contracts were the norm, of course that’s no longer the case. And given the benefits of these early Staff contracts, re pensions then it’s fairly obvious why people didn’t give them up when they became presenters.

    146. beachthistle says:

      @Luigi
      “The last thing the BBC want is for news of a big non-payment campaign. The big game-changer now is the internet – they would not be able to hush it up. What a terrifying prospect for the British establishment.”
      Agree 100%, hence my idea for an internet-based, transparent/visible-to-all ‘Scottish Broadcasting Trust Fund’, with the idea that that the money is held in trust and not given to “TV Licensing” until the Scottish Broadcasting Trust Fund’s Trustees agree that BBC Scotland are clearly demonstrating even-handedness re their referendum coverage.
      I am willing to be one of the interim/start-up Trustees – I am a former UN and UK government official (was responsible for £70+million portfolios/budgets) and am currently chair of a Scottish charity. I would want a lawyer, an accountant, a media monitoriing expert/academic, an e-funding expert and/or an IT geek plus a high-profile figure/politician – although happy to give it a go without the latter to begin with…

    147. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Caesar!lha
       
      I believe all the news team, faces anyway, are contracted and most are actually Party members?

    148. Albalha says:

      @BTP
      Is that last comment a wind up?

    149. beachthistle says:

      @Baheid
      Got £310 million figure by dividing £3.6 billion from Hansard reference below by a Scottish population 8.6% share – which is probably not up-to-date so not saying £310 million definite but won’t be far away…
      Hansard, 22 Nov 2012 : Column 700

      Maria Miller: There must be recognition of the fact that the BBC received £3.6 billion in licence fee in this year alone.

    150. CameronB says:

      I was feeling a bit mischievous on Sunday, so I posted this to Archbishop Sentamu’s article in the Observer. I couldn’t let him bang on about a “living wage” as if he had come up with the idea himself, and as he failed to mention what is happening up here, I thought it was my civil duty to educate the metropolitan set.
       
      One reply I got, complained that London is half full of foreigners. It got as many likes as my comment did.
       
      ————————————————————————————————
       
      I’m sorry, but I had to laugh at this article and many of the comments btl.
      I think English society needs to take a very long, hard look at its self, and ask if the American model is one you really want to follow. Today in Westminster, it is becoming increasingly difficult to separate the parties. There is barely a micron’s difference between their positions now, as Labour makes a mad scramble to out nasty the Tories. Take a look at who first introduced the bedroom tax, for example. There is also an odor of xenophobia hanging in the air, as a political culture which stigmatises ‘foreigners’ is enthusiastically assisted by the MSM. England appears to be heading to a one party system, espousing a neo-conservative ‘soft fascism’ that appears to appeals to middle England.

      Here in Scotland, the Scottish government supports a living wage. Perhaps this is why the Establishment hate the SNP so much? They dare to challenge the status quo.

      https://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2012/mar/snp-councils-commit-living-wage

      P.S. I am not a member of the SNP, but I am able to support their raison d’etre. Scottish independence.
      Vote Yes in 2014.

    151. lumilumi says:

      Sorry, I haven’t read all the comments. (wee embarrassed smiley)
       
      But…
       
      The situation of Scotland is so schitzophrenic!
       
      UK’s got plenty of oil&gas, but nationalist Scotland’s got none and it’s running out tomorrow, or the day after. The only way to keep the oil&gas flowing is to be “better together” with rUK, and keep the tax revenue flowing to Westminster.
       
      Down sarf the world is being told the good news about North Sea oil&gas. The news gets distorted along its way up to Scotland. It’s all doom and gloom up in Scotland. According to Alistair Darling, the oil will run out three, maybe four days from independence. Exploring old/new fields with modern technology is just too difficult.
       
      Doomed, yer all doomed.
       
      I’m glad our Finnish Baltic Sea oil fields turned out to be an internet joke. We’re much better off without any oil&gas problems as a small independent country, we couldn’t possibly handle it!
       
      Not like we’ve handled our forest industry, heavy machinery industry, shipbuilding, high-techy industries (Nokia is a small town in west central Finland, the company started with paper, expanded into wellingtons, tyres, television sets, and finally into mobile phones in the 1980s.) (I’ve got Nokia wellies like most Finns, and my car has Nokia tyres, like most Finnish cars.)
       
      Maybe Finland might’ve been even more successful if it had remained a part of Tsarist Russia, of even Sweden. If independence is such a bad, doom, gloom thingy. (Ha ha ha ha ha!)
       
      We’re independent, and we make our own mistakes.
       
      Finland is not a perfect country but we’ve got a lot of things right. All Finnish kids “hate” school but score top marks in PISA. Everybody of course complains about the “high” taxes but my friends in the USA, Australia, Britain, who earn about the same pay more income tax. Brackets or something. Finland doesn’t have to finace WMD, nuclear subs etc. etc. so we have more money to spend on the citizens.
       
      We’re a pathetic wee independent country (GPD and GINI much higher than the UK) because we’re not “important” or at the “top table”, the table where the empireist… ehm… colonial… ehm… post-colonial… ehm… OK! Just ANYTHING that England can feel good and big about. Maybe wank looking at the pink areas of a world map c. 1901. Ah…Ah… Aaaaahhh!
       
      England isn’t doing too bad in cricket in this Ashes series. I first got into cricket in the early 1990s in Australia, when Oz was the best team in the world. They’re pretty crap now, so the mediocre English team is trouncing them. Interesting.

    152. Caledonalistic says:

      This is news to me.  We’re about to sign up a rig in the UK on a 5 year contract and have another there already working beyond 2017.  The contract doesn’t say anything about workovers or P&A’s.  I’d better let the sales guys know.

    153. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Caesar!lha
       
      Nope
       

    154. Cath says:

      “I think Blair J should make an exception regarding the moratorium on ad hominum attacks, and declare open season on Darling.”
       
      I don’t think he needs to, to be honest. Even on the Better Together sites people are moaning that he’s a crap face to front the campaign. Between him and the other “head people” at BT who act like 16 year old trolls on Twitter, taking the high ground is the only way. Sink to their level and Jenkins would be getting sewage on his suit!

    155. Tony Little says:

      BTP and Caesar!lha
       
      There is without question a close relationship (in all senses of the word) among senior journalists and managers at BBC in Scotland and the North Branch of the London Labour party.  This is not even in doubt, is it?

    156. Albalha says:

      @BTP
      Okay to answer the question.
      Not all are on contracts and I doubt if any of them are members of a political party. I have said previously there’s an undoubted Unionist bias but there’s also a problem of staff shortages, mainly in radio and inexperienced people, both presenters and producers.
       

    157. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      I think so Tony.
       
      I have enough contacts in the BBC, over the years to know that contracting out faces was on the books when the BBC had Queen Street set up as their Scottish Parliamentary base.
       
      I believe, no names, no pack drill that under Boothman the only way to keep your job is to be in the team.
       
      Someone on here said it was the BBC News & Currents who were managing the Slab anti Yes campaign and by extrapolation John Boothman.
      I am coming round to believe the same thing.

    158. Albalha says:

      @TonyLittle
      It seems this goes around and around and around. Boothman is not a hands on journalist, he’s head of News and mainly cares about TV. He does the job Blair Jenkins used to do. And yes he’s a Labour man.
      I can only speak for Radio but the idea that all the senior radio journalists are Labour party folks is just silly. As I have said again there is a Unionist bias. I don’t think you really get just how few senior people are left at BBC Scotland.  
       

    159. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      I absolutely agree about the shortages Caesar!lha and find it angering that they are paying them big buck whilst they cut the real people who make the clock tick.
       
      The feck up with Sally, “we’ll get it back 2007” Magnusson and James Naughtie’s parachuting in, to sort out the rebellious tribes up Norf, tells it all.

    160. Albalha says:

      I’ve heard it all now, you really believe BBC NCA is managing the SLAB anti-Yes campaign?

    161. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      maybe, why not?
       
      Do you honestly believe that the only reason they report verbatin press releases from No-Better Together as real news, is just because don’t have the resources top check if it is?
       
      Who cut the budget and why was it was so severe in Scotland and in particular the News budget, especially at this once in a lifetime event? 

      So why are they parachuting in, part time mind you, a safe London Jock?

      All answers should be written on the back of a £20 note and sent to the Rev Stu.
       
      I really need to come back to Glasgow and reinfiltrate their club. Tell me Caesar!lha, is the special club in Botanic Crescent still operative. Long time since I was a member. maybe they have found another wee exclusive.

    162. Juteman says:

      C’mon Caesar!lha. Really?

    163. Luigi says:

      Beachthistle,
      Very interesting suggestion. Another option (that could be linked to your idea) would be to simply stop watching live TV in protest and stop licence payments and/or pay equivalent fee to be held in trust. 
      If people feel strongly enough about BBC bias and manipulation, are they willing to sacrifice the dubious pleasure of watching live TV for a while?  A bit like a hunger strike!  I wonder what the impact would be if several thousand people did this.
      Personally, I could give up TV today, but I may have to deal with some “domestic” opposition! Willing to test the waters though.

    164. Juteman says:

      Luigi, just stop paying it!

    165. Albalha says:

      No idea about the club I left BBC Scotland in 1999 and headed to London.
      So, from what you say, the theory goes that John Boothman deliberately planned to make all the cuts in half the time allocated to support the Labour Party in Scotland and ensure the delivery of a NO vote. And remember the savage cuts were mainly in radio. The recent work to rule has put a halt to any more redundancies for the time being. 
      I have said over and over there’s a Unionist bias, I have also previously made the point the head of Millbank would never have been the spouse of an acting minister as in the case of J Boothman some years ago. So I am not simply saying it’s due to shortages but that’s part of it. Newsdrive, for example, now has only one presenter for a two hour programme, there’s no way it can be anything other than thrown together.
      As for Naughtie, it smacks of what’s always happened in Scotland. Be it producers or presenters they’re always deemed ‘better’ if they’ve been South. As for him it’s like Wark and Adams, getting older they seem to fancy a wee job in Scotland and sadly the management in Glasgow fall over themselves to secure their ‘talent’. Is it cos he’s a Unionist I don’t know.

    166. Albalha says:

      @juteman
       
      Really, what? I do not believe the whole News and Current Affairs department is working for the Scottish Labour Party and its anti-YES campaign.
      I have said many times there’s a Unionist bias to the reporting. I also wonder why Blair Jenkins doesn’t speak out.
      I’m not much of a fan of any of the major players on either side, who knows who knows who.

    167. beachthistle says:

      @Luigi
      Yup, v good idea to just start with a simple, straightforward campaign, along the lines of
      “Stop watching live TV to stop having to pay for BBC propaganda against your own interests”.
      If those who legitimately stop paying the TV Licence Fee by doing this could then let it be known (for instance via Twitter, Facebook, Wings, etc.), so the media could get some numbers, then that would be a start…

    168. Andy-B says:

      @Beachthisle.
       
      I think we’ll defeat BT
       
      Its a nice idea, the thought of non payment of the BBC TV licence as a sign of protest, or as others have stated, a sort of fund club (withheld cash) where people can pay the equivalent of the TV licence, in the hope the BBC see sense, with regards to parity on coverage of the Ref.
      Of course if enough people took this action, it would be virtually impossible in my opinion for the BBC to prosecute everyone without drawing negative attention, as to why people were witholding their payments.
       
      It is one possible road to go down that would draw attention to the utter unfairness of the BBC coverage of the YES Camp, and there drive for independence, I actually think it might work, if a website were set up, and info spread on social networks.

      I see no other way to bring the BBC to heel, and their lying propaganda,could be the YES Camps undoing.

    169. Juteman says:

      The BBC in Scotland is run by, presented by and owned by the Labour party.
       

    170. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Caesar!lha
       
      I never said that Boothman planned and implemented the cuts.
      the management style of the BBC, classic  hierarchical  organisation ( MIilitary, Civil service, TUs and the Met Police plus loads more) all operate under a vertical reporting bureacratic system.
      Eventually that leads a  culture of conformity to the norm and a don’t rock the boat attitude/mentality. It is not needed to be written down, just imbued in the types of people who get on and climb the Monkey Puzzle tree.
      The further the monkey climbs  the tree the more he shows his arse so, how to square that one?  Easy jus make sure that they are subordinate layers of bureaucracy to filter out what the “bosses” don’t “need” to know. FFS even the DG, now demised had not a clue about Savill and the brouhaha in the daily press! He didn’t need to know and his job was in fact not to need to know. His job was to oil Westminster and ensure that the licence fee  always went up and trebles all round at the Groucho Club with other political movers and shakers.
      Boothman slips in, has the brief to downsize BBC News etc and nobody wants to know how he does it so long as how he did it does not become a public issue.
      So, the lunatics have taken over the Asylum.
       
      I understand that Boothman was read the Riot Act recently; nopt about bias but about the lack of confidence in his culture of fear within. See it became a public issue?
       
      Anyway I hope that all the good and honest BBC people who have to swallow their tongues in order to pay their mortgage out a paypack under personal pressure. We will need then come post 2014.
      You do know what Boothman’s political background is, don’t you?

    171. Albalha says:

      @juteman
      Okay if that’s the case why doesn’t Blair Jenkins speak up? He was Head of News after all. If it is the case wouldn’t you expect the YES campaign to say something particularly with their evident inside knowledge? And don’t you think players on both side of the debate know each other pretty well?
      And for those who say B Jenkins can’t then surely he could pass a wee dossier to someone who could?
       

    172. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Caesar!lha
       
      BBC London may be Tory, well they are in power but Scotland is Labour period.
       

    173. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      BBC London may be Tory, well they are in power but Scotland is Labour period.
      He may well have done re B Jenkins but how much traction is in AS, the SNP and B Jenk saying that it is biased.

      Open season for the MSM and BBC?

      Just wait till post 2014 and a yes vote.

      I cannot wait.

      Sorry if I have been a bit OT but I am sickened by the BBC in Scotland and how they manipulate  our news agenda. Goebbels would be bot astounded and in awe as to how well they have followed his pecepts

    174. Seanair says:

      Am I imagining it or is there an increasing number of non-Scottish “reporters” on BBC Radio Scotland these days? Why are we landed with these people? Are there no young Scottish men and women capable/available to read the news?
      The people I’m talking about can’t even pronounce Scottish place names–Ayrshire has become Eshah, Cairngorms has become Kengoms, etc. My pet hates are Martin Smedley and Rachel Connors but there are many more. Is there a political motive behind this trend?
      On a separate topic how sad to hear a once respected broadcaster boasting that they have seen a document STOLEN from the SG. 

    175. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Dinner time now
       

    176. Albalha says:

      @BTP
      You ask how much traction there is in a former Head of News at BBC Scotland who then went on to Chair a much lauded Scottish Broadcasting Commission speaking out about bias at BBC Scotland? Why he left, the impact of the savage cuts, the role of London, etc, etc…….
      I’ll wager it would get a good deal of publicity. However I realise on here I’m probably in a minority of one, that’s fine.

    177. Albalha says:

      @Seanair
      Surely a range of voices is representative of Scotland in 2013? I quite like the Canadian Rachel Connors, think she delivers quite well.
      However, they are of course just throwing anyone in front of a microphone, on that I’d agree. And to think it’s not so long ago BBC Scotland still had trained continuity announcers.

    178. Taranaich says:

      Back in my talk with my pro-Union best friend, they brought up the mysterious conundrum of why Eck refuses to debate Darling after the latter threw down the gauntlet. I was so stunned by my intelligent friend actually suggesting Eck might lose in a debate against Alistair Darling that I couldn’t immediately respond, though my David Silverman-esque expression of utter disbelief probably said it all. I made that face a lot during our talk (as, in fairness, did they.)
       
      I simply cannot understand how they could vilify Salmond for woolly accusations of racism and xenophobia, and yet throw their lot in with the man who is ultimately responsible for this entire financial crisis, in addition to the litany of other disasters and ethically wicked legislation he was complicit in.

    179. Luigi says:

      There is only one way to defeat an institution as powerful as the BBC.
       
      SOLIDARITY
       
      Unless we all (or most of us) are up for the fight, it would be a pointless gesture.

    180. MajorBloodnok says:

      Alastair Darling as head of BT should be up against the head of YES Scotland, which is Blair Jenkins.  The correct opponent for Alex Salmond is David Cameron, and he won’t want to be made a fool of either.

    181. Seanair says:

      Caesar!lha, I may have got Rachel Connor mixed up with someone else but  I’m still beeling!

    182. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Caesar!lha
       
      I leave to you the last word
       
      With respects.

    183. Albalha says:

      @Seanair

      I’m wrong, not you, I’m thinking of Sarah Tomb/Toombe not sure of the spelling.

    184. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      to all, a propos all bureaucratic systems of oppression.
       
      A problem only becomes an issue if affects the hob nobs. After that it must be killed, buried, ignored rubbished and then forgotten about.
       
       

    185. beachthistle says:

      @Luigi
      I’ve started the ball rolling on twitter re a simple #NoLiveTVNoLicenceFee campaign, to see what the reaction is.
      If enough of us can’t give up watching live TV for a year (or at least tell TV Licensing that we will) in order to make a sizeable reduction in BBCScotland’s/Boothman’s propaganda budget, then I have underestimated how much my fellow Scots want independence!

    186. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      BTP: I’ve cleaned up all (I think) your “Bateman/Boothman” clangers. BE MORE CAREFUL IN FUTURE. I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO.

    187. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      ta

      I DON”T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT

      apols etc etc
       
      Boothman GOOD etc ( seriously )
       
      apologies
       

    188. Blair McDougall seems to be having a touch of the Calmans on Twitter. Just provided an excellent coda to my blog How Long has Gorbals Goebbels Got?

    189. wee 162 says:

      @Rabb (3:38pm)
      Of course they are. Labour councillors etc at a local level want to get elected to parliament (either Scottish or UK). Remove Westminster from the equation and the number of highly paid jobs they can get drastically reduces. A rough guess by the time you add on staffing allowances etc would be that Scotland becoming independent would remove about £3-4m just in salaries from the Labour Party in Scotland. That’s without having the prospect of ministerial promotion, potentially becoming important in a UK government etc taken into account. Labour is absolutely populated by career politicians. They’re far from alone in this, but Scotland becoming independent fills them with horror, because that’s their career path absolutely fecked. Careerist used to be the ultimate insult to anyone wanting to stand for election in the Labour Party, now they’ve nothing but that left. That’s why they no longer represent people, just getting elected.
       
      Same thing goes with the BBC in my opinion. Their biggest paying jobs and the most exposure they can get is in London or Manchester. It may not be deliberate, but that is going to colour your opinion even if you don’t mean it to.

    190. Sneddon says:

      OT  but I just switched off listening to Marcus Brigstock on R4.  What a lot of stereotypical racist  shit from a comedian I normally like.  The fake scottish accent, an idiot guide to history, reference to scottish diets (good coming from marcus given his dietary history, the formally 25 st fat bastard) and certainly a sneery, brit nat perspective, what a fecking let down.  Maybe the show improved but after 5 mins of this shit I had to stop listening.  It was just too painful to listen too ,  Just another english liberal upset the jockos want to leave them.  An utter, utter travesty of a programme from someone who should know better.

    191. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Agreed

    192. annie says:

      Just finished watching Scottish News Raymond Buchanan finished his report stating that the Scottish Government would be publishing their “so called” prospectus  for independence in September – they just can’t help themselves.

    193. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Sneddon \
       
      Listening to The Archers (NO I AM NOT) but wurrafuk
       
      better than Marcus Brigstock  and his broadcast

    194. john king says:

      Dcanmore says:
       
      outstanding,
      this should be published in the msm 
      if only 

    195. Rod Mac says:

      If you get your T by Virgin Cable can you ask them to not send BBC programmes?

    196. McNic says:

      Last Thursday after the BBC’s own poll that showed we weren’t happy with their content, Kays topic of the day was, What Do You Want From BBC?.
      I asked- K with an E – by text “is there any register of political affiliation for current BBC political journalists”, she had a wee choke when reading it out, then said she wasn’t aware of any! I was amazed it got through.
       

    197. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      We should point out that we don’t get the oil revenues at the moment.
      Nertheless our economy is working rather better than the larger UK one on a budget which represents rather less than the revenues we send annually to Westminster.  
      I think the time has come target some of our press one by one and destroy them
      We could start with the Daily Express  

    198. Sneddon says:

      BTP  Things are indeed bad when the soddin’ archers are better than anything 🙂

    199. gavin lessells says:

      If anyone really thinks that BBC Scotland is not driven by an anti Independence anti SG agenda and that this can be changed in the next 14 months then I think that their heads really must button up the back.
      The only credible answer to their antics are to ignore them and pursue our objective of Independence through the social media and sites such as this. There really is no other way insofar as media communication is concerned.
      Ignoring the rats will upset them more than us. I start off the day by totally ignoring them instead of sending rants to Robertson and that idiot Kaye. Makes a much more pleasant start to the day!
       
       

    200. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      SNEDDON
       
      What a load of recycled crap substituting for real news.
       
      The Archers are a  better projection?

      Smiley thing

    201. ianbrotherhood says:

      This is worth a swatch – features a heartwarming image of young Darling relaxing with a female friend and some cuddly toys, one of which is wearing a kilt –
       
      http://redmolerising.wordpress.com/2011/09/05/alistair-darling-and-the-img/

    202. Dcanmore says:

      @Seanair … yeah, recently BBC Scotland website ran a story on a new sci-fi series ‘Outlander’ to be filmed in Scotland this year, the star of the show is actor Sam Heughan from New Galloway. Of course the BBC put New Galloway in Dumfriesshire in the report when it is actually in Kirkcudbrightshire (clue is in the name FFS). They don’t even bother to check if the sodden place is in the right county! Also in the Imperial War Museum, London, they have a collection of flying boat photos taken from Wig Bay and Stranraer during WW2, apparently in Ayrshire, all listed as such. Of course it should be Wigtownshire. Pisses me right off to see such obvious geographical mistakes.

    203. I think what he meant was that his eyebrows would run out of colour by 2017.

    204. Jeannie says:

      @ianbrotherhood
       
      Is that Susan Deacon with Darling in that picture, do you think?  Looks a bit like her.

    205. Morag says:

      OT, but I just read that Allison Hunter has died.  Touching obituary in NNS.  I’m pretty upset.
       
      One more person to remember on 18th September next year.

    206. Dave McEwan Hill says:

       
      Alison Hunter
      I concur entirely, Morag. A rock of the independence movement (with a sense of humour)

    207. Clydebuilt says:

      This is a great piece to email round contacts. It clearly demonstrates the lies of BTG.
      in a short easy to read format.
       
      So circulate far and wide

    208. G H Graham says:

      Fucking old poof

    209. Train fares says:

      I’ve just watched the newsnight in question and AD doesn’t say this. Has it been cut or have i missed something.

    210. Clydebuilt says:

      Gaavster & Bugger (The Panda)
       
        was the Scottish Governments Energy Report leaked by the SG or was it made public against their wishes?
       
      If it’s an email leak there’s easy ways around that!

    211. Dcanmore says:

      I’d like to know if I can nominate the above Ali D picture for the annual ‘Plook on a Plinth’ award.

      Because he looks like one.

    212. Albalha says:

      @Morag
      I only met Allison Hunter during the last Scottish election when she was working in N Sturgeon’s HQ. I was taking photographs for the Stirling University Political Archive, she couldn’t have been more accommodating, allowing me to snap away inside their offices.
      Btw, in comparison the Labour Party campaign HQ’s were at best hostile to any photography.

    213. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Jeannie-
       
      Susan Deacon?
       
      Good shout. Could well be. It’s certainly not Margaret Curran or Johann Lamont.
       
      (Of course, we could ask Margaret Curran, but she’s far too young, doesn’t remember the 70s at all. And we could ask Johann, but she’s done a Lord Lucan on us.)

    214. Callum says:

      O/T – some self-deprecating humour, a sprinkling of BT propaganda and lashings of anti-Scots racism, “The Brig Society” on iplayer http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0376ncx

    215. Albalha says:

      @ianb and @jeannie
      See what you mean but there’s an eleven year gap between Darling and Deacon, so not sure.
       

    216. ianbrotherhood says:

      Just out of interest, how much would you have to be offered, in hard cash, to sit through an hour of Darling speaking?
       
      (Remember – he charges folk approx £10,300 to turn up and give a spiel.)
       
      We’ve all got our price, but even right now, skint as I am, it’d have to be, ooooooh, at least £50 to sit tight and keep shtum for a full hour…and I’d still feel really hard-done-to. (Second-thoughts, make it a ton, and travel-costs, and some luncheon vouchers.)

    217. Sneddon says:

      G H Graham@8.48pm
       
      Drunk in charge of keyboard 🙂

    218. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Caesar!lha-
       
      Hmmm.
       
      The plot thickens.
       
      Who is that mystery woman?

    219. jckri says:

      G H Graham@8.48pm
       
      “Fucking old poof” ? Really?  Mrs Darling thinks he’s straight, guess that’s why she married him.
      Personally I think he’s a fanny – and that’s something really useless – well it is to a fucking old(ish) poof like me.
      Perhaps you need to lay off the drink a bit G D.  Rabid homophobia is not attractive.
       
       

    220. NSTST says:

      Nice try Stu.
      Darling was giving an unscripted interview and he made a comment off the cuff, which I agree is an exaggeration.
      Salmond on the other hand was making an analogy based on a false premise, in order to fool the average Joe who may have been listening.
      I am glad BT finally picked up on the SNPs “Wholesale value” misinformation (since they have been peddling that one for months). They had clearly timed the intervention to piddle all over the SNPs Oil paper (which it did spectacularly).
       

    221. Albalha says:

      @ianb
      He had a brief marriage in his youth before marrying his second wife, so maybe his first wife?

    222. Albalha says:

      @NSTST
      How do you know it was unscripted? Not based on a press release?

    223. EphemeralDeception says:

      Alex Salmond says….
       
      Actually it was an official Scottish Government paper that produced the figures and Alex acting official capacity as Scotlands First Minister.  Darling, who is accountable to nobody for BT can spin what he likes. The UK government has not stated there is only 2 million barrels only Desperate Darling.
       
      We should not mix what the SNP or Alex States in their own opinion versus the official position of the Government.
      Darling is really saying our government is lying not just that Alex is lying.  It is an insult to us all and should be considered as a diplomatic incident.

    224. ianbrotherhood says:

      @NSTST-
       
      ‘Darling was giving an unscripted interview…’
       
      Huh? What’s that then?
       
       

    225. ianbrotherhood says:

      @NSTST-
       
      Okay, maybe you’ve already been asked, and answered, but please, do tell – what does NSTST stand for?
       
      I hope you’ll tell us – you wouldn’t want us all to start guessing.
       
      Or would you?

    226. Bill C says:

      I knew Allison Hunter, she was a lovely lady, a great worker for independence and a passionate Scot. She will be remembered next year when we win the right to self determination. May she rest in peace.

    227. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      mac at 3.26 seems to imagine that we can be persuaded to believe  that oil revenues are the only revenues that Scotland contributes to the treasury and provides us with a long and idiotic  post predicated on this
      Obviously none of us work, run businesses, run companies, grow food, produce power etc etc etc and and we don’t provide to Westminster on a per  capita basis the second highest  level of revenue of any UK region

    228. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Why don’t we just knock this “volatility” red herring on the head right now by producing a chart showing the average price of a barrel of oil every year since 1970 

    229. Karamu says:

      O/T (but after 200 comments that should be cool). Who is this Terry Kelly character on the Herald threads? I have put my toe in the waters over there and started posting the odd comment- particularly when some of the more pernicious myths are peddled as fact. I questioned his assertion that independence would suddenly result in foreigners everywhere (and indeed why that would necessarily actually be a bad thing even if it were true). The guy pounces on my comment but completely misses the point I made…

    230. DJ says:

      Karamu,
       
      He does it all the time. Don’t bite!

    231. Jeannie says:

      @karamu
      Who is this Terry Kelly character on the Herald threads?
       
      Karamu – eventually almost all of us ask this question.  He’s a Labour councillor.

    232. muttley79 says:

      @NSTST
      “I am glad BT finally picked up on the SNPs “Wholesale value” misinformation (since they have been peddling that one for months). They had clearly timed the intervention to piddle all over the SNPs Oil paper (which it did spectacularly).”

      Salmond was using figures that the UK government used. How is that misinformation? More to the point, are you happy to support a campaign that is relentlessly negative, to the point where campaign workers call it “Project Fear.” Also, why do you oppose Scotland having all the powers that small European countries have, such as Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Belgium, Republic of Ireland etc? Finally, what is the substantive, positive case for the Union we are always being promised?

    233. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Fucking old poof”

      I’m so glad we all had that nice talk last night about writing as if an undecided voter is reading.

    234. ScotFree1320 says:

      Major events & real world oil prices (2008 $/barrel)
      http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/mbaumhefner/World%20Oil%20Prices%201970-2008.PNG

    235. ianbrotherhood says:

      @karamu-
       
      Terry Kelly’s got his own space in ‘Zany Comedy Relief’, top of page – because he’s a belter!
       
      http://councillorterrykelly.blogspot.co.uk/

    236. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Darling was giving an unscripted interview and he made a comment off the cuff, which I agree is an exaggeration.”

      An exaggeration from zero, to be precise. Salmond quoted the oil industry’s figure accurately. His exaggeration was nil. Darling turned it into 1,200%.

      “Salmond on the other hand was making an analogy based on a false premise”

      You may wish to look up the word “analogy”.

    237. Jeannie says:

      @ian brotherhood
       
      Just followed your link to Terry’s blog and read the latest.  Noticed it was by an “anonymous contributor”.  No wonder he wanted to remain anonymous!

    238. Atypical_Scot says:

      Brilliant, Darling cannot speak himself, he needs a script to lie well. You couldn’t write it.

    239. Jeannie says:

      @albalha
      He had a brief marriage in his youth before marrying his second wife, so maybe his first wife?
      TWO different women actually fancied him?  Jeezo!

    240. Karamu says:

      OK, just spotted the link in “Zany comic relief”. Jesus Christ, he’s an elected politician…. 

    241. ianbrotherhood says:

      @karamu-
       
      If you do visit Cllr Kely’s blog, be sure to check out his profile (on the right hand side, with the wee pic) – one of his favourite books, apart from Pride and Prejudice and Ulysses (which, he helpfully reminds us, was written by J. Joyce) is The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists (sic). 
       
      Perhaps he was a wee bit ‘Philanthropist’ when he filled in the form, thus managing to get the title of one of his ‘favourite books’ so wrong – epic fail.
       
      But don’t let it put you off having a wander about inside the guy’s heid. Eventually, some of his ravings will form the core of a brilliant PhD entitled ‘The Regrettable Fruits of Avoidable Idiocy.’

    242. annie says:

      King Tavish of Shetland issuing a declaration of independence.

    243. Macsenex says:

      Humour will win the day.

      Get on phone-INS and audience participation programmes and confront them with their bias.

      They and more importantly the public will get the message

    244. Morag says:

      King Tavish of Shetland backpedalling so fast he would ace a audition with Bertram Mills.

    245. James Westland says:

      Re Terry Kellys blog:
      Today we hear it trumpeted that he is to “boycott” the open golf at Muirfield in Ayrshire because it is a male only preserve.
       
      Ayrshire?
       
      man, what an embarassment….

    246. Robert Bryce says:

      Has King Tavish actually asked his subjects what they want?

    247. HandandShrimp says:

      NSTST
       
      FFS! Darling came across as a complete Muppet. At current extraction rates he has the oil running out in about 4 years. Slight exaggeration? He has painted a target on his arse.
       
      Salmond translated £1.5t into an easy to understand figure. At no point did he say that was the tax receipts from the oil. That is just faux outrage that the BT crowd are pretending to exhibit because they simply don’t want there to be any economic argument for an independent Scotland to exist in any form whatsoever. Why don’t they want an independent Scotland to exist? Fuck knows! 

    248. That Cllr Terry Kelly is a real humdinger! It just goes to show that you can probably pin a red rosette on a chimp in some areas and it’ll get elected.

    249. Chic McGregor says:

      Atypical and Shrimp
      “Aye, the small aspect of electrical distribution that seems to be regularly omitted is loss over distance due to resistance and energy conversion to heat in sub stations and cables. Norway cables are fine and well but there will be a significant loss compared to a Scottish supply, and since the rUK shortage is in the main during peak rate, I don’t see the Norway hub selling it at a discount.”
       
      Sub sea cables of any length (more than a few tens of kilometres) have to be DC rather than AC because of the rapidly growing impedance on AC sub sea cable with length due to capacitive effects intrinsic to cable design.  When DC is used, there is only significant capacitive impedance at switch on.
       
      Once you are resigned to DC there are several advantages.
       
      If the same current is passed through a conductor using DC rather than AC then heating losses are considerably less (see ** for a partial explanation).  However, in practice, this effect would be taken advantage of by increasing the current above that which would be used for AC so more energy can be transported with the same conductor. As a result percentage heating losses for DC cable may not be all that much less than for AC but you get more net energy transported for the same amount of conductor.  Also DC can be carried at the peak AC voltage so there is also a gain over the RMS voltage of AC which is only about 70% of peak.
       
      Typical heating loss on a cable from Scotland to Norway would be less than 3%.
       
      Although installation and renewal costs are high, ongoing maintenance for subsea cable is less because it is in a safer environment (No lightening, no winds, no ice build up, no accidental damage) and pylons also have ongoing maintenance regarding mainly conductor cleaning and replacement and damage repair.
       
      Financial benefit of similar underground cable must exist in terms of commercial aesthetic effects – not reducing tourism, not reducing property values, but these are not easy to quantify.
       
      DC transmission does not care about the source and destination grids being out of synch with each other (out of phase). Synchronisation with the target grid is left to the DC-AC converter at the the grid connection point.
       
      Disadvantages
      The big extra cost for DC is the fact you need converters at either end.  One to convert from AC to DC and one from DC to AC (some designs can do both hence allow for energy flow in either direction).  In the past these have been very costly and unsightly taking up, literally acres of ground filled with the required apparatus. More recently, advances in semiconductor based conversion mean that converters will be cheaper, easier to maintain and fit in a building something like the size of a telephone exchange.
       
      Another problem is the, relative, unreliability of converters due mainly to the large number of critical components involved.  This results in large maintenance costs for traditional converters and continuity of supply issues.  Again, something which is likely to improve radically with newer technology. 
       
      Another problem is switching control.  Switching at HV would rapidly deteriorate switch contacts by arcing.  Complex power down systems are required to avoid this and in particular when there is multi line connections, there has to be reliable and fast communication between the relevant converters.
       
      Politics
      The desire to connect with Norway is because it is 100%+ in HE generation.  It’s topography (high lochs close to lower lochs) means that it has a great deal of pumped storage capacity (possibly 40% plus of Europe’s potential pumped storage). It acts like a giant accumulator (i.e like a car battery), it can receive and store electrical energy and feed it back or elsewhere at appropriate times.    This is especially important for intermittent generation sources like wind power.
       
      For the UK the sensible sub sea grid would be Peterhead to Norway and a subsea cable from Peterhead to a landfall close to the centres of need in the SE of England, i.e. somewhere around the Wash area.  This could also act as a conduit for the proposed large off shore wind deployment off the SE coast of England.   It would also enable energy surplus from Peterhead to be exported to centres of need and future tidal and wave from Scotland’s North and NW could be routed that way as well and would have reduced the need to increase pylon capacity from Scotland to England.
       
      Independent professional report paid for by the DTI and UK Government told them this, but the report has been ignored.
       
      Meanwhile negotiations between the Scottish Government and the Norwegians to get the ball rolling were halted by Westminster under pain of diplomatic incident.
       
      The proposal to instead run a cable from NE  England directly to Norway does not make as much commercial or engineering sense.  Say, the cable from there to Norway will cost around £500 million (a semi-informed guess) if instead it went to Peterhead then across to the same place it would only add about a further £70  million.  OTOH A subsequent cable from Peterhead to NE England, to achieve the same tri-terminus capability, would be a further £200 million +.
       
      However, I suppose it is better than nothing and Peterhead to NE England and NE to SE sub seas would still be possible, if at significantly greater cost than doing it in a more strategically sensible fashion.
       
      Ideally, from a wider European perspective, it would make more sense to have a central North sea hub, possibly a converted disused oil platform? to connect the players involved, as per the Scottish Government proposal (although this may be no brainer for engineers. Westminster politicians are as good at exhibiting engineering sense as they are in other fields).
       
      If you look at the case the German to Norway sub sea cables under construction (Germany is heavily into wind power).   This would have been much cheaper if they were allowed to run pylons up the Jutland peninsula and only cable the short sea crossing.  I’m sure in the case of the longest existing cable from Nederland to Norway the Dutch would have much rather routed up through Denmark and short cabled over the Skagerrak as well.  However, Denmark is, unlike Scotland, an independent country, so that was a non starter.  In fact the Germans had to negotiate hard with Denmark just to be allowed to lay the cables in Danish waters.
       
      Compare Scotland’s case where beefing up the pylon grid to serve England is currently just a given, another Union ‘dividend’, meeting only token protest. 
       
      It should also be noted that the clock is ticking and Norwegian storage capacity could be all used up by the time the UK get their act together.
       
      It’s almost like they want to remain Scotland’s only potential customer for ts renewables.  😉
       
       
       
       
      **Because AC current is largely carried in the ‘outer layer’ of a conductor, for reasons which are possibly beyond most reader’s physic’s level here, the agitation of the conducting atoms there is much more significant and since heating loss occurs at an increasing non linear rate with increasing current density and the resultant agitation produced, the heating losses are much greater than if the same current were passed using DC through the same conductor.  That is because in DC mode the full cross section of the conductor is used to transport electrons and the result is less agitation therefore, statistically, less chance of each electron ‘bumping into’ and thus losing energy on its way along the conductor.
      Heating losses are sometimes known as I-squared-R losses, because they increase in non linear fashion with current. e.g twice the current = four times the heating loss.
       

    250. annie says:

      Out of interest just clicked onto Terry Kelly it beggars belief isn’t there a Mrs Kelly who can take him in hand – mother? wife?

    251. HandandShrimp says:

      I’ve looked at the Herald a few times but I just can’t get into the posting format and I rarely see anything I actually feel is worth responding too. To be fair it is better than the Scotsman. The board there is some sort sub-Yahoo space and as often as not completely overrun with spam. It seems mostly to be the haunt of the few remaining Scottish Tories so hardly a bell weather for current Scottish political thinking. 

    252. Karamu says:

      RE Terry Kelly. OK, I have tried. I literally cannot bring myself to read his rambling nonsense. It might be funny if I didn’t know that people had voted him into a position of (limited, agreed) power.

    253. Bill C says:

      @Rev –
      “Fucking old poof”
      “I’m so glad we all had that nice talk last night about writing as if an undecided voter is reading”
      Total agreement. What is the point of  making a comment like that?  Certainly does nothing for the cause of Scottish self determination.

    254. Tony Little says:

      @Dave McKeown
       
      Average oil prices since 1946 here  its in US$ but adjusted for inflation.  The tables are long.  but I guess a shorter version could be put together. 

      It’s based on US oil, so I will look for a European or world average

    255. Atypical_Scot says:

      @Chic McGregor;
       
      Brilliant. Over a thousand meters x 240v Dc x 100amps will loose 32 volts in copper core at least. Does the deep sea cable prevent voltage drop as well?

    256. The Man in the Jar says:

      For those questioning the Labour / BBC links our own Barontorc posted this on the Craig Murray blog some months ago. It is a bit out of date but I found it astonishing that this could go on in a democracy. Please take a look and tell me that there isn’t a big link between Labour & BBC.
      An example would be-
      “Catriona Renton BBC Reporter for Politics Show & Former Glasgow Labour Councillor who’s Facebook friends include =
      Jackie Baille Labour MSP
      Yousuf Hamid Labour Activist
      Tom Harris Labour MP
      Mike Dailly Labour Activist
      David Martin Labour MEP
      Frank McAvetty Labour MSP
      John Robertson Labour MP
      John Park Labour MSP
      Steven Purcell Labour Glasgow Leader
      Dave Watson Vice-chair of the Scottish Labour Party

      http://gaiusmarcellus.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/unacceptable-links-between-labour-and.html

    257. Training Day says:

      @NSTST
      “Darling was giving an unscripted interview and he made a comment off the cuff, which I agree is an exaggeration.
      Salmond on the other hand was making an analogy based on a false premise, in order to fool the average Joe who may have been listening.”
       
      I’m just back from a hair splitters convention (copyright 12 Angry Men).  Your proposal was laughed out of conference before we even set the agenda.

    258. john king says:

      “If you get your T by Virgin Cable can you ask them to not send BBC programmes?”
        
       
      eh no 

    259. Roll_On_2014 says:

      The Man in the Jar

      Just read this from the last blog/comment in the link you give.

      Raymond Buchanan is married to the sister of Brian (dripping venom) Wilson.

      Does anyone know if this is true?

    260. john king says:

      jlt says

      “Nah…sorry, don’t agree with you on this one, Jiggsbro. If that was the case, we would have every Tom, Dick and Harry using that as an excuse in the courts.Both sides were warned by the Westminster Select Committee (or something like that I believe) not that long ago – all the Scottish Government needs to do is run to the Select Committee and place a complaint.This has to stop. Project Fear is getting worse, and yet no one, from any official body is stopping it. I think the SG need to start raising this as an issue. If BT mump about it too loudly, then it is only going to register with the Scottish people that something isn’t right, and then they might just dig deep themselves, which might put the fear back into the BT Team. That would be BT’s real fear …the Scottish people looking for the answers themselves, and then getting angry once the real truth surfaces. Alistair Darling would be flogged for his blatant lie telling!” 
       
      And there lies the dichotomy,
      Im continuously caught between jiggs’s pov and yours but I have to say that if indeed blatant (and provably so) lies are being told it is absolutely  beholding on the SG   to expose such, or face the ridiculous but all too inevitable claim from the msm that they (SG)were complicit in withholding the truth from the public 
      eg future Scotsman headline #
      Alex Salmond knew Alistair Darlings projection of PROVEN RESERVES were wrong but said nothing,
      the mind games those people are prepared to enter into is beyond anything we have seen before and we ABSOLUTELY MUST stamp all over these false claims, with or without the ("Quizmaster" - Ed) msm’s help!

        

    261. Stuart Black says:

      @HandandShrimp, agree with you, not much to get involved in over there. The Herald is heavily moderated for new and not so new posters, to be fair there are decent independent minded posters that appear to have open access (hi Tony!), but the heavily commented threads are normally overwhelmed by the likes of Jezerna and her long-winded, densely linked posts, with their almost supernatural antipathy to independence, which comes strange indeed from one who supposedly posts from Slovenia. Some on here suspect that she is a construct of the BT people, dunno myself.
      McKeown from the West Midlands seems less ubiquitous these days, as does Terry Kelly, though to give him his due, when he does appear he makes up for long absences by the lively and startling eccentricity of his comments, to me living proof of the red rosette cliche, but beyond me that a man who is happy to make views like his public could be an elected politician. However, the people have spoken, etc.
      OBE from Woking completes the triumvirate of zany comedy relief, and remains the only person who has managed to say ‘Alex Salmond’ five times in one sentence. An un-endearing commitment to the assassination of Eck’s character, regardless of topic, and the use of Bell’s infamous cartoon as his avatar ensures that he remains totally ignored – at least by me, and I wish by others – these days. I would normally have given a graphic description of how I picture him mentally, string vest and all that stuff, but I am conscious (at last!) of the Rev’s admonition to write as if the undecided were reading and, musing guiltily over some of the attack dog posts I have made, I have now sworn to turn over a new leaf (seriously). Mr. McIntyre will remain in the reader’s imagination, unsullied by this commenter’s internal image.
      The aforementioned four are reason enough for me to forego the pleasures of the ‘Most Commented’ threads. Which has the added bonus that I avoid the accompanying rise in blood pressure when I see lucid posters reponding to them, it must be screamingly obvious by now that, with the possible exception of Roza, there is nothing whatsoever to be gained by debating with them, why continue?
      They keep coming back because people keep feeding them.
       
      Ignore them. They’ll hate it…

    262. john king says:

      mcart says
      “P.S. Is anyone else thinking of breaking oot the bell bottom jeans and platform shoes? Its got a distinctly 70s feel around here this week. ”
       
      Ahhh bell bottoms, cheese cloth shirts blue suede chelsea boots 
      hair on your head that went down to your a**e
      getting a little misty eyed here mcart, thanks for the walk down memory lane
      think I’ll put on maggie may 🙂

    263. Stuart Black says:

      with the possible exception of Roza
       
      Ah, strikethrough still not working?

    264. Stuart Black says:

      @Roll_on_2014:
      Raymond Buchanan is married to the sister of Brian Wilson.
      Does anyone know if this is true?
       
      Yes, it is true.

    265. Roll_On_2014 says:

      @Stuart Black
      Cheers

    266. john king says:

      beachthistle says @1.50pm 24/07/13
      I think your onto something there,
      this could catch not only msm media attention but worldwide focus on the lies and obfuscation from the BBC  and force the OSCE’s hand, I’m totally up for that 

    267. john king says:

      dmw42 says
      “It’s therefore entirely possible that there is documented evidence of significant oil and gas deposits under the Clyde, in the North Atlantic and under Scottish soil; that there is further damning evidence of why a nuclear arsenal is in Scotland; confirmation supporting that Scottish assets and resources have continually been sacrificed for EU/UN concessions/acceptance; ratification that rUK could be bankrupted as a result of the potential instability of sterling (and subsequent tax hikes required in rUK); ‘tapping’ by GCHQ of Scottish citizens…”
       
      Im not so sure they are keeping future oil finds from us that they are so keen to keep under wraps, but past crimes committed against Scotland they don’t want coming out post independence, 
      I believe Denis Healy’s admission was only the tip of an enormous iceberg which when exposed may very well threaten the freedom of past Westminster politicians but also the very future of th rUK, because the revalations to come out of a yes vote may very well take them back to the stone age in reparations, think Germany in 1923 when people took their wages home in wheelbarrows 
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315869/Germany-end-World-War-One-reparations-92-years-59m-final-payment.html

    268. Macart says:

      @NSTST
       
      You really should check the links some provide. I posted three on this thread which link to oil industry related reports. When you’ve read those releases and reports you may want to rethink your claims on Mr Salmond’s and the SGs figures. UK Oil and Gas link especially. Darling told a blatant and provable lie for no other reason than to spread uncertainty and doubt among the electorate. The FM exaggerated nothing, used only EASILY available reference and is trying to encourage confidence within an electorate.

    269. john king says:

      beachthistle says @4.02pm
       
      Where do I sign?

    270. Macart says:

      @John King
       
      Hair doon tae ma erse isn’t an option these days…..(mutter, mutter, bloody MPB). 😀

    271. Juteman says:

      OT.
      Watching BBC News. BBC Scotland seem to be in Portugal stirring up trouble over minimum alcohol pricing. There will be a trade war with Portugal! FFS.!

    272. john king says:

      “@jutemanOkay if that’s the case why doesn’t Blair Jenkins speak up? He was Head of News after all. If it is the case wouldn’t you expect the YES campaign to say something particularly with their evident inside knowledge? And don’t you think players on both side of the debate know each other pretty well?And for those who say B Jenkins can’t then surely he could pass a wee dossier to someone who could?”
       
      I remember an interveiw when Blair Jenkins was appointed a the leader of the yes campaign and he was asked that very question by a BBC interviewer (cant remember who) if he thought the BBC  was biased against the yes campaign and (in my view) he cravenly said no,
      a case of blood being thicker than water methinks  

    273. Richard McHarg says:

      Pants on Fire Darling is looking pretty damned stupid.
       
      http://www.rigzone.com/news/oil_gas/a/116541/North_Sea_Oil_and_Gas_A_Long_Future_Ahead

    274. john king says:

      karamu says
      “OK, just spotted the link in “Zany comic relief”. Jesus Christ, he’s an elected politician…. ”
      no he’s a monkey with a red rose, 
      ignore him 
        

    275. Vronsky says:

      @ianbrotherhood
       
      “Perhaps he was a wee bit ‘Philanthropist’ when he filled in the form, thus managing to get the title of one of his ‘favourite books’ so wrong – epic fail.”

      Huh? He’s got the title right, unless you’re going to fuss over a missing hyphen.

    276. john king says:

      roddy mcdonald says
      “That Cllr Terry Kelly is a real humdinger! It just goes to show that you can probably pin a red rosette on a chimp in some areas and it’ll get elected.”
      doh
      however, what do you mean probably?

    277. Linda's Back says:

      Juteman
       
      Call Kaye on about Minimum Pricing which is right on health and family life grounds and it also helps local pubs, shops and off licenses to survive against supermarkets.
      A £5 bottle of wine is the middle class equivalent of cheap vodka or Buckie and only contains eleven pence worth of wine £2.73 goes to UK government and £1.46 to the retailer. 

    278. Juteman says:

      I’m not against it Linda.. Anything is worth a try, though i have my doubts wether it will work. We Scots simply like to get drunk.

    279. Tony Little says:

      @john
       
      I am also caught between the two approaches towards the media.  I am not sure how “damaging” the constant lies and misinformation are these days as the YES campaign is grounded in communities, and those that care/volunteer have access to real information from the internet, sites like this etc.  In times gone by when the media was the only source of information, I think their role was more important and control of the media necessary for governments.  (They deny this of course, but what does the first “B” stand for in the BBC?  No not B*****d)
       
      The BBC in Scotland is treading a thin line right now.  It is clear to anyone who is objective (you don’t even have to be a YES voter) that the output is biased to the Union position.  The BBC in Scotland is important as it sets the baseline for many/most Scottish voters as many people STILL think it is fair and honest.  
       
      What will happen in the 16 week officially monitored neutral period in the run up to the referendum?  (by the way, am I correct in thinking this is an increase from the “normal” 12 week period?  If so, another master-stroke by AS as this gives extra time for the duplicity of the media and especially the BBC in Scotland to be revealed) The truth will come out – or at least BOTH sides of the argument will be heard properly.  Will the ‘casual’ viewer who has listened with apathetic acceptance of every utterance from ‘neutral’ BBC reporters remain content with being lied to by the very organisation they “trusted”?  I’m not sure.
       
      So what benefit is there to YES to create a sh*t storm of complaints AT THIS TIME?  The MSM would in the main crowd around to defend the “neutrality” of the BBC and I think more harm would be done.  There IS still time to get this right.  Maybe what is happening is that a portfolio of lies is being assembled and at the right moment in the campaign proper will be flooded onto the MSM.  (Papers will print anything for the money.
       
      It’s a bit scary, and seat-of-the-pants, but I think we have no need to panic just yet.

    280. Indy_Scot says:

       
      So it looks like BBC Scotland is basically a front for Scottish Labour to spin their agenda, is it any wonder why people find it difficult to give them £145.50 ever year to fund their propaganda machine.
       

    281. Stuart Black says:

      @Tony, very much agree with you, the keeping the powder dry thing scared me a little, earlier on, but the alacrity with which Darling et al have promoted the most childish idiocies has resulted in, as you mention, even non YES voters noticing the extent of the scaremongering and, as Mr Darling now demonstrates, outright lying.
       
      Best to stay calm and continue on as usual.

    282. john king says:

      Tony Littlesays:

      @john 
      I said that on a previous post tony
       the 16 week period when lies will be stamped on is the time when the BBC  will out themselves and show themselves up for the liars they are,
      as I said wait until you see the whites of their eyes
      AND LET EM HAVE IT 

    283. Neil MacGillivray says:

      Masters of propaganda know full well that the BIG LIE is always successful – read the appropriate chapter of mein Kampf and remember that Darling was once a Trotskyist.
      He knew that the figure was wrong and that no one would correct it – job done!
      Expect more BIG LIES in the months ahead – thought up by Project Fear and broadcast by the BBC

    284. Tony Little says:

      @john
       
      Sorry mate, I didn’t read every comment properly! 
      (embarrassed smiley)

    285. Tony Little says:

      @Neil
       
      The BIG LIE only works if it can be maintained.  At the time of the 1930s the average person’s access to news was limited.  Therefore their access to the truth was limited.  Goebbels is often quoted in respect of propaganda (and rightly, as he captured the key principles very well) but usually his most famous quote is only partially presented:
       
      “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”
       
      But the quote continues with: “The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
       
      That’s why the MSM and BBC in Scotland are what they are.  BUT the internet has broken their control and power.  the truth IS available, we need to encourage people to seek it out. 

    286. Neil MacGillivray says:

      @ Tony
      Seek and ye shall find.

    287. Luigi says:

      The truth will always out eventually, even in the 1930’s, long before the internet.  It is still possible for governments to hold back the truth from the majority of people for a period, but the possible time lag before it leaks out is very short  nowadays.  BT’s (BBC’s) main strategy is to hold back the truth for long enough for the referendum to be “storted” next year. However, there is still more than a year to go, and they are struggling already.  The days of effective, long-term manipulation of news are over, but governments across the world have not yet come to terms with the new reality. BT’s negative campaign, based on lies and smears has only worked (partly) to date because most people have yet to engage in the referendum debate. During the next 12 months, when people start asking questions, and go searching for the truth, there will be nowhere to hide.

    288. Sneddon says:

      ‘We Scots simply like to get drunk’  Speak for yourself Juteman I’ve been tea total for 2 years and I’ve never felt better.  Maybe if you’re drinking to get drunk you should change your football team 🙂  
      Minimum pricing should be one of the tools to deal with the effects of alcohol related damage but won’t be easy as problem is cultural as well as economic.  Pubs should be supported and cheap mind melt drinks taxed out of reach.  I think this along with more jobs and more hope can deal with that, which coincidently we can do something about by voting YES.  It all begins to make sense. But I don’t need to tell you that.

    289. Marcia says:

      Tony/Neil.
      I think I read in his diaries some time ago, that if he kept telling the same lie over and over even he started to believe it.

    290. Robert Kerr says:

      All is not lost. I have a friend who is a died in the wool working class tory who thinks AS is insane. I have avoided that for now. However he admits the MSM are liers and only buys the Daily Express for the crossword. I had already remarked in the oil running out lie by AD and sure enough it was in the paper. I asked if he believed the papers, no was the reply, I then asked if he believed the BBC. He shouted NO !
      I have more than a year, he shall vote yes once he understands that the referendum is not an SNP but Scottish issue. The Murdo Frazer gambit for the tory party may work well. Stomped on by London and a lesbian kick-boxer parachuted in by the Establishment…
      Wish me luck !

    291. Famous15 says:

      I belong to a club dominated by Daily Record/Sun readers and thought there was an innocent theme of ignorance on the referendum but lately two opinion themes begin to dominate: No1 “Salmond is a lying bastard” and No2 ” Scotland is not sophisticated enough to be independent in the modern world”. What is striking is the speaker in every case sounds as if they were spouting learned lines. Any question asking for evidence is met with a bemused or blank stare.
      The second one is most obvious as it is spoken by people who a few weeks ago would have made fun of me using such words as “sophisticated”. My question  is , therefore, who is drumming up these two lines? Never mind Mein Kampf it is more the robotic  1984 that springs to mind.

    292. HandandShrimp says:

      The recent attitude survey conducted by the BBC showed that 52% did not think the BBC served the interests of the Scottish people. The are not the sacrosanct monolith of Lord Reith’s era. They have become a crumbling edifice that would not take much to push over.

    293. SCED300 says:

      We have been fortunate that the internet has given a voice that is not controlled by the mainstream media.
      However I would be looking very carefully at the wording of proposed legislation that Cameron is talking about for blocking pornography on the internet.
      If it is not very specific concerning pornography we could see a sleight of hand, first steps to blocking other activity. Once the legislation is in place it is easy to expand it.
      It could start with terrorist political sites or threats to national security. Then what is a terrorist site. Could Independence be seen as a threat to national security?
      I doubt if many voters in the south would object to shutting sites they don’t approve of and the equivalent of a D notice would also mean no one would know.
      The big services, Google etc were obliged to give information but not allowed by law to say they had given information.
       
       

    294. Famous15 says:

      Back to the booze issue! To continue in my culture club the opinion has moved from ridicule of the SNP government to hatred of Portugal’s wine trade. “WTF is it to do with them?” Interesting unintended consequence of Call Kaye?

    295. tartanfever says:

      I hope that those suggesting the ‘truth will always come out’ are correct.
      My concern is that, in the case of the internet, it’s always reliant on the number of people that actually read the news from that source. While Wings and other sites are getting healthy reading figures, they are but a small percentage of the voting population.

      They also have to counteract the passivity present. Many people are just not interested in political news and many will not bother to even make an effort in the run up to the referendum. Their first port of call will be the MSM and some may trickle through to do some internet reading.

      We have to fight against the ‘accepted’ position, which for many people in Scotland is that we are lucky to be part of the UK, Westminster is best, we cannot afford to go it alone, we will be reliant on Oil which is running out and so on. Those fears are very powerful and very real, they have been repeated for decades now and they have become the ‘truth’ simply because they have been repeated, not because of any empirical facts.

      In a fight between the whole of the UK media and a few independence leaning websites there is a huge gap in the audience numbers.
      Yes, the ‘truth will always out’ – but it’ll probably be too late by then.

    296. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Vronsky –
       
      The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists.
       
      You’re right.
       
      Now I feel foolish. Serves me right for being a smart-arse. I apologise to Cllr Kelly for implying that he just selected some books he thought might look impressive.
       
      Having said that, he’s still a belter.

    297. Juteman says:

      @Sneddon.
      You know what i mean. 😉
      I remember watching a documentary about Scottish soldiers serving in the French Foreign Legion. An officer was asked his opinion on the Scots. Very good soldiers, he said, but they love to drink. He gave an example. Every legionaire was given a 1/2 bottle of wine witb his evening meal. The officer said, “these crazy Scots, they save them  up, and drink them all on the Saturday night!” 🙂

    298. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “While Wings and other sites are getting healthy reading figures, they are but a small percentage of the voting population.”

      Your broad point is correct, but it’s not THAT small. We’ve reached not far off 300,000 people this year alone.

    299. Murray McCallum says:

      Sorry O/T but see MoD’s annual survey of attitudes finds “almost a third of army personnel say their morale is low”.
      This seems at odds with the wonderful picture of motivated professionals that would never dream of joining a Scottish Defence Force.  Something doesn’t add up here.

    300. Morag says:

      We’ve reached not far off 300,000 people this year alone.
       
      How sure are you about that?  I mean, how many people access Wings through two or more devices or locations?

    301. Caroline Corfield says:

      What you can’t see in viewing figures is the amount of specific articles reposted on other social media sites, people often quote selectively in the status, there’s the headline in the link. Even if it doesn’t result in a click, it’s still a drip on a soft rock. Out of this mighty stalactites grow. 

    302. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Sorry if this has been linked to already but it would appear that good old BBC and Raymond Buchanan in particular have been doing the dirty work for Bitterr Together…….AGAIN!
      http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7773-bbc-scotland-colluding-with-better-together-as-oil-debate-threatens-no-campaign

    303. tartanfever says:

      Sorry Rev, not meaning to belittle your sterling efforts in any way.
      However, to be pedantic, how many of these site visitors are actually voters in Scotland ?
      Whilst we can probably assume that many are, I’m not sure if you can actually tell through website stats/ISP addresses or whatever they are (internet novice here) or if it’s even feasible to find out that kind of info.

    304. Barontorc says:

      It must be uniquely interesting that two brothers from Barra have found jobs in the BBC.
      According to wiki; Raymond Buchanan for BBC Scotland as the Holyrood correspondent and Michael Buchanan for the BBC’s PM and World at One.
      Both have done remarkably well coming from the tiny Castlebay School in beautiful Barra. 

    305. Marcia says:

      Tartanfever
       
      The site must be getting read by a fair number of Scots to be a threat to the No campaign. Just read the twitter account of WoS. How many read the Telegraph, Guardian? I tell all my friends about this site. Word of mouth is helping to build a readership. Keep mentioning it folks.

    306. Tony Little says:

      Ant this is 300,000 people that will almost certainly vote (and most will vote YES)

    307. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @Arbroath 1320
       
      Is he not married to Brian Wison’s sister?

    308. Murray McCallum says:

      Living outside of Scotland and being a visitor to this site I can say it has further encouraged me to donate funds to a broad range of pro independence causes.  I hope these funds help inform some of the potential voters outlined in this thread.
       
      It is frustrating hearing some of the ill informed “sleep walking to independence”, “Scotland lacks sophistication”, etc crap spouted by some potential Scottish voters.

    309. Macart says:

      I think an advantage this time round is point of reference. The media and opposition spin hasn’t changed a jot in forty years. The Rev ran some pieces a short time back showing literature from past devolution campaigns. Anyone in their 30s and upwards can’t fail to spot the similarity of the NO campaigns then and now. They are also aware of the strategy and outcome.
       
      Only the truly hard of thinking and the most two faced of Westminster party followers could consider the media unbiased and with that in mind what to do, what to do…
       
      Well, there is only one thing to do IMO, which is exactly what the YES campaign are doing right now, grassroots up, face to face and door to door. We are not going to convert the media in the next year or indeed at any time by simply railing against them. You might as well spit peas at a Tiger tank in the hope of scratching the paint. I reckon you should take your complaints and evidence of bias to the one destination where it will do the most good, the punter at the doorstep, the bod in the street. Make them aware of how they have and are being used and abused on a daily basis. And the best way to do that is publicity for sites like WoS, NNS, Bella etc…. Just moaning at folk can be quite unattractive, ask Johann and Ruthie.
       
      Nah, more publicity to the folk who can really punch a hole through MSM bullshit and self interest. They think those who perform this service are small change and that we are all morons for buying into it. Does anyone here feel that WoS isn’t providing a valuable service or that they are somehow a lesser human being for contributing? Just keep pointing people in the right direction.

    310. Eco_Exile says:

      It is possible for a site to tell geographically where the people are connecting from,  by their IP address , country code parameter. Unfortunately, there is only a UK domain (GB) so,  it wouldn’t be able to tell which are in Scotland without looking at the CITY level – you’d need a geolocation database for that… 
       

    311. CameronB says:

      @ Rev Stuart Campbell
      Have you thought of leaving this thread at the top of the front page, just to give it more exposure? It’s the best example, so far, of ‘white man speaking with forked tongue’.

    312. Eco_Exile says:

      @CameronB 
      I hope that is not directed at me?

    313. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The Booze issue
      It is interesting to note that over the past forty years the ABV of draught alcohol served in pubs has almost doubled.
      When I started working in pubs as a student (Chevalier, Langlands Road, Govan ) on the 1960s a pint of “light” a was about 1.8 ABV and “heavy” was about  2.2  or 2.4ABV. It was perfectly possible to have three or four pints of a whole evening and be relaxed but still sober. Minimum pricing may have the effect of pushing ABV on draught back from the present 3.6 to 6 ABV range. This would be good news – and for the pubs as well
      But taking alcohol out of supermarkets using mind melting pish as loss leaders would be the most effective way to attack our alcohol probem  

    314. CameronB says:

      @ Eco_Exile
      Eh? I’m talking about Flipper.

    315. annie says:

      I wonder if any of the BBC Scotland “journalists” ever worry that by following their own political agenda they have totally trashed the BBC’s long held reputation for honest and impartial reporting.

    316. NorthBrit says:

      @Ian Brotherhood @Vronsky
      I don’t think you have any cause to apologise.

      Terry Kelly’s site banner finishes “Avanti poplo”.  It should be “Avanti popolo”.

      He can’t even get his Dave Spart style sloganeering right.  It seems to be a trait of fat Scottish “I’m a Socialist” types to imagine themselves as some kind of dashing hero of the Italian left.
      Cf.  http://www.blogger.com/profile/08051949553219258559

    317. CameronB says:

      @ annie
      A reputation all of the BBC’s own making. The alleged impartiality is a marketing message that is unsupported by empirical evidence or fact. The Beeb started as a department of the Foreign Office, charged with disseminating propaganda, and that role continues today.

    318. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Dave McEwan Hill
       
      Your ABVs are not correct. beers used to described on a 60/-, 70/-, 80/- and 90/- basis. These were some old duty levels per barrel, really old. For those of you born post decimalisation the /- sign was pronounced shilling (correctly) or bob (colloquially)
      These beers were light, heavy, export and strong ale. The alcohol levels in them were, depending on the brand and brewery, about 3.2%, 3.8%, 4.2% and 6.5%
      I used to brew them at Tennent’s, Wellpark in Duke Street.
       
      I suspect that you have a better capacity as a youngster for I know of no beers of the strength you wrote except in Wales where they had a tradition of l0w gravity beers for the miners post shift.Ten or twelve beers per night was not uncommon but the beers were under 3%. When Bass took over a Welsh brewery, they brewed the beers of alcoholic content I have indicated. It was then illegal to declare an ABV on draught beer and maybe packaged ones too. The result was some very drunk miners and a surge in sick notes next morning. The weaker beers were reinstated    quite quickly.
      During the First World War, the Government nationalised the Carlisle Brewery and all the pubs in Carlisle. They reduced the alcohol content in all beers sold in Carlisle so as to help reduce the incidence of hangovers, headaches and explosions in the munitions factory whish was vital for the War effort. If that plant had gone up they would have had to throw turnips at the Germans. It was denationalised  by Edward Heath in the 60s and bought by Theakston’s of Massham in Yorkshire.

    319. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Rev Stu – I see you made exposure on BBC Scotlandshire. Every little helps the cause eh?

    320. ianbrotherhood says:

      John Beattie on Radio Scotland has just invited listeners to comment on BBC coverage of the birth of that wean, and he repeatedly said ‘don’t hold back’.
       
      Okay then…
       
      The text number is 80295, and the e-mail should be john [dot] beattie [at] bbc [dot] co [dot] uk

    321. mato21 says:

      Email sent

    322. martyn says:

      NSTST stands for “Nationalists Say The Stupidest Things”
       
      He has a fairly busy FB page for a while where people were free to debate on (fair play to him)
       
      but it seems to have died a death, i was always asking him to come over here to debate properly and outwith his comfort zone..seems that he has
       
      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Nationalists-Say-The-Stupidest-Things/515333345152432?fref=ts

    323. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Is he not married to Brian Wison’s sister?
       
      I’m not sure BtP. Mind you if he is then that would explain an awful lot! 😆
       

    324. NorthBrit says:

      @martyn
      I interpreted it as NaSTy and Sexually Transmitted.
      But I only had the context to go on.

    325. martyn says:

      my fondest memory of NSTST was when he claimed that the declaration of arbroath was taken from Braveheart. Nothing like knowing your subject matter huh
       
      seriously, i have the screenshots if you dont believe me lol

    326. martyn says:

      His quotes (and those of his facebook buddies) feature quite often on this page
       
      https://www.facebook.com/UnionistsSayTheSilliestThings/photos_stream
       
       

    327. CameronB says:

      @ martyn
      Can you stick it up on t’internet, so we can all link to it when NSTST comes up with more howlers?

    328. mato21 says:

      Flippers song linked into the thread headline I just remembered it and it is so right for him

      Enjoy Yourself It’s Later Than You Think

      You work and work for years and years, you’re always on the go
      You never take a minute off, too busy makin’ dough
      Someday you say, you’ll have your fun, when you’re a millionaire
      Imagine all the fun you’ll have in your old rockin’ chair
      Enjoy yourself, it’s later than you think
      Enjoy yourself, while you’re still in the pink
      The years go by, as quickly as a wink
      Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself, it’s later than you think
      You’re gonna take that ocean trip, no matter come what may
      You’ve got your reservations made, but you just can’t get away
      Next year for sure, you’ll see the world, you’ll really get around
      But how far can you travel when you’re six feet underground?
      Your heart of hearts, your dream of dreams, your ravishing brunette
      She’s left you and she’s now become somebody else’s
      Put down that gun, don’t try my friend to reach the great beyond
      ]You’ll have more fun by reaching for a redhead or a blond
      Enjoy yourself, it’s later than you think
      Enjoy yourself, while you’re still in the pink
      The years go by, as quickly as a wink
      Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself, it’s later than you think
      You never go to night clubs and you just don’t care to dance
      You don’t have time for silly things like moonlight and romance
      You only think of dollar bills tied neatly in a stack
      But when you kiss a dollar bill, it doesn’t kiss you back
      Enjoy yourself, it’s later than you think
      Enjoy yourself, while you’re still in the pink
      The years go by, as quickly as a wink
      Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself, it’s later than you think

       
       

    329. HandandShrimp says:

      Just had a look at his Facebook page. I particularly liked the petted lip over Griffin. Let’s face it, UKIP, BNP, Orange Order, SDL, EDL etc., all wanted to join Better Together. Better Together said we are better together as long as it doesn’t include you Union Jack waving numpties. The picture and quote from Griffin are genuine, the only bit of spoofery is the BT logo. This is normally called satire and is funny because BT wouldn’t let them join. Not sure where it came from but it looks like the sort of thing BBC Scotlandshire would do. A site that is genuinely funny if a tad naughty.
       
       

    330. Robert says:

      My first post here.
      I have read the comments anent Councillor Kelly with interest.
      I was a prolific contributor to the Herald forums for years.
      I enjoyed the forum mainly because it avoided the pitfalls of pseudonym led sites like the Scotsman’s pit of despair and stupidity that passes for a forum and was (as Stuart has said) heavily moderated, which allowed some reasonable exchanges.
      I was in the privileged position of not being pre-moderated as the moderators (who I have a lot of time for) trusted me, unlike Mr Kelly whose every word was moderated before being published.

      There was very good reason for that as those of you who have visited his ludicrous blog will testify I am sure.
      I made the decision to cancel my subscription to the Herald and to leave the forum as a contributor after a concerted effort by some posters to swamp me with abusive posts.
      The very thing they accuse ‘cybernats’ of doing on a daily basis!
      Now very few of them made it through moderation but the Disqus system let me see them prior to deletion.
      To say that some of them were choice is to underestimate them.

      In one 7 day period Kelly bombarded me with over 100 posts of which less than a handful made it through moderation…he managed nearly 20 in a hour at one point.
      He then claimed on his blog that he had done no such thing and that I was lying. A normal reaction to anyone who gets the better of him apparently.
      I sent him all the links as proof which he then refused to publish and continued to stick to his story of being unfairly treated by the Herald by way of censorship (read his tirade…it’s a laugh).
      I have not been back to his ‘blog’ since…nor will I.
      He was not alone in this action being joined by a cretin called Moseley who insisted in altering my name in every post in order to ridicule it….perhaps an indication of the level of stupidity I was dealing with.
      There was another member of the clan Kelly who was childishly abusive for several days before giving up..presumably in frustration at being moderated away.
      He is still there.

      He (Kelly) is a chancer and a hypocrite of the worst kind.
      He did not like me reminding this noble ‘internationalist socialist’ that he was the holder of shares in private companies, a fact easily seen in his members interests section of the council website.
      Or that he had been the subject of censure by his own party for some of his more choice attacks in his blog and that he has been well known for his less than grown up treatment of political opponents in the past.
      Or that his supposed reading list on his bio was apparently written by a committee as another poster has mentioned.
      I pointed out the inconsistencies of his position and labour policies on many topics and he doesn’t like or can’t take the obvious being pointed out, preferring to stick to glib one line rebuttals and regurgitating past labour glory.
      Never have I seen anyone in possession of such a monumental Scottish cringe in my life.

      It’s embarrassing to witness him rubbish anything originating in this country as “Rubbish…but at least it’s oor rubbish”
      But I think the thing that rankled the most with this west of Scotland labour, hypocritical dinosaur was that I had been a labour member and supporter for many years and I told him so.
      This seemed to mark me out for special opprobrium.

      His garbage has led to me leaving the Herald as I said.
      I could not fight back as I would have done naturally or as I would have done face to face and I had to depend on moderators not allowing the rest of the forum to read what I was reading…so in frustration I jacked it in.
      He is welcome to the forum and he thinks….nay he knows…he is fighting for truth, justice and a safe seat.
      To cut a very long first post a bit shorter….the man is a petty, cretinous example of all that is bad in the current labour movement.
      “Avanti Poplo”…..indeed.
      A wanker of the first order.

    331. Morag says:

      I just noticed a gem of an epigram in one of the articles.  Better Together “casting perils before swine”.
       
      Whoever is behind that site is one very very smart cookie.

    332. Stuart Black says:

      Welcome Robert, a bit more convivial over here. I do not wish to pry, but does your surname begin with D?

    333. Robert says:

      Is it that obvious?!  🙂

    334. Stuart Black says:

      Ha! No, not many suspects to choose from, but I <sycophantic mode> always looked out for your posts in amongst the dross <sycophantic mode/off>.
       
      I find it very difficult to read the comments over there nowadays, as outlined in my previous post. Still, I do see a very welcome softening in attitude, apart from, of course, the retention of Magnus Gardham as political editor. 🙁

    335. Stuart Black says:

      Oh dear, inspired by the comments re. Terry Kelly above, I just paid a fleeting visit to his website, I know I’m trying to be good but that is surely grounds for sectioning the man? For an elected councillor to post this garbage – and not under an assumed name – astonishes me to the quantum level.
       
      Won’t be going back…

    336. Robert says:

      I know what you mean.
      I notice the arrival of a few different and reasonably articulate Yes supporters recently.
      On the No side I read only two or three of them.
      OBE is ‘at it’ as we used to say…or he is mentally unstable…one or the other. I hated Thatch but I wouldn’t have spent my entire waking life regurgitating the same guff over and over about her the way he does about Salmond!
      Ms Roza is a construct in my opinion.
      Her/Their stuff is tedious but it must take some amount of time to find the copy and paste content and I don’t actually believe that someone in Slovenia cares that much about rubbishing Scottish independence…do you?
      McKeown is a monumental dick.
      He has taken more batterings than a badly punch drunk boxer.
      Yet he comes back to defend his corner against politics in a country he doesn’t (supposedly) live in!
      He runs a successful business (his words) and keeps two homes going whilst spending nearly all day on numerous days tapping away at a keyboard…..aye…right.
      Kelly is just…..Kelly….a fanny as you have just seen!
      I wouldn’t have got that through on the Herald!
       
      Still thanks for the friendly welcome Stuart….a blessed relief!

    337. David McEwan Hill says:

      Bugger(The Panda)
      You’re  right. The average ABV in the 60s and 70s was about 3.5. There has been a steep rise at the top end however into the draught pils and special beers up into the 5s and 6s

    338. Chic McGregor says:

      @ john king and dmw42
      ““It’s therefore entirely possible that there is documented evidence of significant oil and gas deposits under the Clyde, in the North Atlantic and under Scottish soil”
       
      As far as I am aware there is only one small block licensed for the west of the Hebrides but already two “significant” discoveries have been made there.
       
      I also remember reading about 20 years ago or more, in the Gaelic column of the Scotsman (still a decent paper then), when I was on one of my Gaelic immersion holidays, that oil had been discovered in test wells on Skye in three locations, but have heard no more about it since.  Don’t know if it ever appeared in the English MSM, it wasn’t in the English section of the Scotsman.
       
      However it would not be in the UK Government’s interest to have the existence of extensive oil resource become known before the referendum.   Don’t know if it is possible that they are aware that that is the case i.e. possible to make test bores clandestinely in unlicensed areas without being noticed.  Perhaps someone here could say if that is possible?
       
      Expert opinion seems to be that there would be no surprise if the continental shelf West of Scotland is as likely to have oil as that to the East and possibly even more.
       
      However recent failure to find oil in Irish southern waters  is a bit of a blow, obviously to them mainly but also to the idea that the whole Western Continental Shelf might be oil bearing, but OTOH there wasn’t a lot of commercial oil discoveries in the Southern North Sea area either, Gas, but not oil.  My money would still go on the significant discoveries in the one tiny licensed block to the North West of Lewis as being the best indicator.
       
      BTW the UKCS own figures for North Sea oil resource are:
      About 7 billion barrels in existing fields, another 8 to 11 billion barrels in known resource yet to be exploited and expectation of new discovery’s (understandably more iffy) by them is from about 3 billion to 9 billion. i.e. a total estimate from 18 billion to 27 billion.
       
       
       
       

    339. Stuart Black says:

      Yes Robert, there are still some decent YES posters there, but as I said before they must have the patience of a saint, or a terrible social life to continue ‘engaging’ – I use the term loosely – the likes of OBE.
       
      Deny them the oxygen of rational response, they may get sick of it. Or, perhaps not.

    340. Macart says:

      @Robert
       
      Hullo… A new voice. Welcome to WoS.
       
      That’s quite a first post, strangely I don’t think you’ll find any disagreements with your conclusion. 🙂
       

    341. Macart says:

      @mato 21
       
      Cheered up a long Thursday afternoon. 🙂

    342. Robert says:

      Stuart Black says:
      25 July, 2013 at 3:44 pm

      “Yes Robert, there are still some decent YES posters there, but as I said before they must have the patience of a saint, or a terrible social life to continue ‘engaging’ – I use the term loosely – the likes of OBE. Deny them the oxygen of rational response, they may get sick of it. Or, perhaps not.”
       
       
      No I take that on board….I had already taken to scrolling past OBE from around the second week he appeared and NEVER replied to him after that.
      It was reaction he wanted…don’t give it to him and he will be forced to wend the days away polishing his OBE.
       
       

    343. Robert says:

      @Macart 
       
      It was….and thanks!

    344. Chic McGregor says:

      Another oops. I misread the Scottish Government paper.  UKCS is not an organisation it just stands for United Kingdom Continental Shelf, but the figures given are from official UK sources.

    345. Macart says:

      @Robert
       
      De nada.
       
      The more the merrier.

    346. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      David McEwan Hill
       
      Thanks.
       
      It all started with Carlsberg Special Brew which Tennent’s copied as Tennent’sd Special Brew only to have Carlsberg hit them with an interdict so, it became Tennent’s Special.  That was the bloody bane of my life trying to filter it at 6am. I had to taste it periodically during the process and it put me off high gravity beers for ever. Even now I can taste beers brewed to a high alcohol content and then diluted to can or draught strength. Siockening.

    347. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      Chic McGregor
       
      I remember in the 50’s as a nipper, short trousers and all that, in Girvan, Wendy Wood came and did some tub thumping.
       
      She produced a map showing the major oil deposits around Scotland (remember say 1956/7) and there were also deposits west into the Altlantic.
       
      I  never forgot and wonder what happened to her archive?

    348. CameronB says:

      @ martyn
      Thanks.

    349. Jamie Arriere says:

      I remember reading in Joe Pieri’s book about the Glasgow police, that they tried to set up a listening device to snoop on Wendy Wood and her group of acolytes in one of his pal’s cafes. They tried to put it in a speaker of the sound system which they normally piped Scottish music through, and some poor policeman had a 10-12 hour shift in a smelly downstairs cludgie to pick up any subversive activity – all they could pick up at any volume was her moaning to get the bloody music on.
       
      Shows you dangerous they considered her and the nationalists in those days. Maybe they knew about the oil as well.

    350. tartanarse says:

      Alex and co should be saving this stuff up.
       
      On the night before the ref, ALL telly channels should braodcast a competitiion in a game show style featuring SNP v anyone at all from the BItters.
       
      There should be a series of questions in relation to quotes and truths.
       
      The winners should then be allowed to have a full front and centre page apology from the losers to the Scottish people for lying to them the following ref day.
       
       

    351. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Jamie Arriere-
       
      An ex-neighbour, who was very active in the SNP in the 70s, told me that he was watched and hassled by police for years, and was stopped while driving so often that he took to carrying his license with him at all times. He knew it was related to his SNP activity because they once stopped him (the car was small, a Beetle if not a Mini), insisted that he open the boot etc, and quipped that they were looking for William Wallace’s sword.

    352. Vronsky says:

      ‘@Ian Brotherhood @Vronsky
      I don’t think you have any cause to apologise.’

      I thought the obvious and pretentious lie was that one of his favourite books was Joyce’s ‘Ulysses’.  I know for a fact that he hasn’t read it, because nobody who says they have, has.  He might as well have suggested A La Recherche Du Temps Perdu, perhaps the most widely unread novel of all time.  He belongs within its pages, forever unnoticed.

      @buggerthepanda

      That’s really interesting about the beers.  Did you know that Cobbet campaigned for free beer for the workers, not out of socialist altruism, but because the feckless buggers were drinking tea and it didn’t give them enough calories to work hard all day in the fields.

    353. Jamie Arriere says:

      @ianbrotherhood
       
      Aye, in those days there were probably more policemen than SNP members – I don’t think they could do that now.

    354. Albert Herring says:

      @Vronsky
      I’ve read Ulysses – no wait I tell a lie, I’ve read it twice.
      Gave up on Finnegans Wake after a few pages though – maybe that’s the one Terry has in mind.

    355. Gaavster says:

      Chic, dmw and john king
       
      You might find the following link interesting in relation to west coast oil reserves….
       
      http://forargyll.com/2013/03/south-scotland-msp-raises-the-mystery-of-1980s-west-coast-oil-capped-on-westmister-instructions/
       
      There are some good pdfs worth reading that are linked to in the article too
       
      Between us (lol), I can exclusively reveal that some very interesting data has been received via the FOI route and that it will make very interesting reading when fully assimilated and presented to the public…
      Who knows, it might even be included in the white paper….
       
      Just saying 😉

    356. msean says:

      I don’t believe the oil will be running out in 2017. Where do all those extra voters live btw?

    357. Ken500 says:

      Every word they utter is a lie. Change everything to opposite and that will be the truth. Bully boy Cameron and the red faced liars will no succeed. It is unchristian to lie. They should practise what they preach. Every time Cameron and Co open their months they increase the YES vote.

      The currency, the Crown and the EU are not the most important to Scotland’s future. The £20Billion (secretly) lost to Scotland, much going south because of Westminster economic policies could change Scotland’s future.

      Vote YES.

    358. Ken500 says:

      The is surprise OBE has not been deleted or banned. Deja vu – boring. Ground hog day. YES supporters have been constant, especially those who give the full facts. There hardly any No commentators on Guardian threads etc, because the readers have been given the true facts as apposed to the ‘journo’s’ copy. Ill researched ‘journalists’ copy and paste because it saves timeand effort. Just a few diehard No’s left. The usual suspects. People access MSM websites for the comments, not the ‘journo’s’ copy. If the MSM Press printed the truth. They would be put in jail. It is Westminster controlled, by secrecy and lies.

      That is why Westminster will no implement Leveson, the public would have slight redress against the Press/MSM. Westminster wants to keep control. Any junior reporter could see through and report the lies, but they would be leaned on by Westminster. The Guardian is the only paper with any independence of Editorial. A community trust – like John Lewis. Guardian still had tax evaded off shoots. These assets have been sold to finance the Paper.

      The Guardian ‘Westminster/Washinton GCHQ survellience reporting’. Cameron/Clegg put in the heavies to threaten the Editor and smash up the evidence. Westminster is a centre of spin, lies
      and misinformation. Cameron/Clegg are fighting for their political lives. Their conceived ‘entitlement’ makes them very dangerous people. A danger to democracy.

      Darling etc are so boring and repetitive. They do more damage to the No campaign and turn people off, especially the DK or No voters. Repetitive lies do not help. The majority of people are sick at the sight of them and their negativity, especially the lies. No wonder the YES vote is
      increasing. The non arguments for the Union and the boring messengers. Vote YES.

    359. Ken500 says:

      Off to canvass

    360. Ken500 says:

      Renewable energy is just as important to Scotland’s future as Oil. Scotland has got it all in natural resources, even coal with CC, the big thing. An abundance of electricity for electric cars. Electric cars are five tines cheaper to run than petrol fuel. £100 of petrol = £20 of electricity. A major saving to the economy. No wonder Westminster trying desperately to hang on to Scotland. They have run out of Gas. Thatcher, secretly’, cancelled a Pioe line wasting the equivalent of £Billions of Gas. No wonder Norway has a £Billion dollar Oil Fund. They did not waste Gas and are still cultivating it, by selling it to the Britain.

    361. Tacos del Manicos says:

      Oil has been running out since its discovery. Sod – don’t tell me the whisky is gonna run out soon too ???



    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




    ↑ Top