Wings Over Scotland

The times haven’t changed for me as I still believe the above quote to be true.

They are (obviously) completely correct regarding self determination. No doubt they’d’ve been more circumspect in their pronouncements had it looked likely there might be 56 SNP MP’s on the horizon, or if Labour hadn’t, several decades earlier, cravenly abandoned its Scottish home rule stance.

Best not shout this news too loudly … it might upset the Despot currently in 10 Downing Street. 😀

There was a time when a simple majority of pro-independence MPs would have been enough to trigger independence talks. To win 95% of the seats would have been an absolute stick on for independence.

Times have indeed changed.

Thatcher and Major would say that. They thought it would never happen and would have changed their tune if they did.

Scotland. The only country that discovered oil and got poorer.

Scotland. The only country in Europe where you get a free vote but no democracy.

56/59, even by Kezia Dugdales counting that is a majority in Westminster

We’ve already soared over Mrs Thatcher’s hurdle for independence (a majority of Scottish MPs in favour).

Unfortunately the test has been changed to gaining a referendum majority.

We will just need to do that instead

She should have telt Godzilla, who hung her portrait in his Office of n.10.

Re: Swami Backverandah at 12:20 pm

“Dear Theresa
We want a divorce.”

But I can change, I will give you more of your wages back for housekeeping …don’t leave …you’ll be sorry if you do …you know you can’t live without me …I love you and your silly little tartan ways.

Westminster leaders made such statements from the safety of knowing that 50.01 or more of Scotland would vote to stay, or that Labour would fix the vote (1979).

Nowadays, they’re not so certain, and it shows in their debates, their media and their followers.

As Mick Clark posted on WGD yesterday:-
“Does anyone think if England wanted an independence referendum they would seek our permission?”
I am in no doubt that we are being attacked from within; a Fifth Column of Unionist self servers who have done all right out of selling their birthright continue to lie to, threaten and decry their fellow Scots citizens.
Scots born, they deny that Scotland is a sovereign state.
They use the EssEnnPee as a scapegoat. They deny that we have been subjugated by a Westminster System, which has treated Scotland as a colony for all of the 310 years of the Union, and especially so in the last 50 years.
Brexit has killed the Union at last.
If they think Scotland’s such a basket case, it is they, Davidson, Dugdale, Rennie, Murray, Carmicael, and Mundell, and their wee grubby disciples, who are responsible.

I watched Findlay, Marra, and Rowley play the Judas card the other day.
It’s all the fucking SNP’s fault. Does Holyrood pay their wages in pieces of silver?
Children starve, old age pensioners face Bedroom Tax eviction, unemployed disabled citizens have their allowances cut by £30 a week, and Marra lies that the EssEnnPee has cut pupil funding, in the full knowledge that the 32 LA’s squirrelled away £450 million this year and have a nest egg of £1.2 billion, and have the power to increase CT by 3% locally.
The Unionist Better Together Collaborators continue to betray Scotland. For what. For a grubby wee wage, at the expense of Scotland’s sovereignty and more importantly the health and webeing of its citizens.
I’m sure Wullie Rennie, self declared Champion of Children sleeps weel o’ night knowing that he has plunged 260,000 Scots children into poverty. It is he who is guilty. Not the EssEnnPee.
He props up Tory England. He would see Scotland as a crushed occupied colony of Empire 2.
Davidson and that gaggle of smug self satisfied Dim But Nasty LisTory Boys would destroy civic society and scrap public ownership of Health, Education and our essential Public Services and Organisations.
They would sell their birthright for dosh, and fuck the rest of us.
The past few days have fair got my dander up.
WE leave Little England to its fate.
We welcome any political asylum seekers; we’re not full up.

We are taking back our country by hook or by crook.
Shape up or ship out.

Jack Collatin says:

Scots born, they deny that Scotland is a sovereign state.

They do indeed. My rationalising of the proud-Scot-but mentality is that they perceive their Scottishness in the same way as a native of Yorkshire or Somerset are proud of their ‘regional’ identity. However, when it comes to nation or country they look to something wider.

That’s one group. There is another group of Unionists among us. They really don’t give a damn about anything other than their own wealth and position. They are those who owe their privileges to a UK state.

The good news? IMO those two groups combined represent something like 25%. Also, with Brexit, that second ‘I’m all right Jock’ group could be persuaded Indy will look after their interest better.

@Jack Collatin at 1.01pm

Jack What a great post and we get a lot o’ good ones on this site. Your one is another “cracker” and right on the button.

Doffs cap to you.

By any of the objective or subjective standards normally used to confirm national status,Scotland is a nation.

Why does this matter ?

Once you have accepted this fact (Scotland is a nation) there,then follows,the right to autonomy,that is not to say Scotland is autonomous,but it does establish the rights of the citizens to have that choice (as recognised by the United Nations right to self determination).

Whatever the reasons (and there are many) if the citizens to choose Independence,this should not be viewed as extreme or unusual as many smaller and/or less prosperous states have emerged over the last 20/30 years.

IMO
To deny the Scotland’s citizens this right to choose,you must either,deny the fact that Scotland is a nation or refuse to acknowledge the UN’s right to self-determination or fail to believe in the democratic process.

Any refusal or delaying tactics should be viewed in this context and would be against the best interests of the citizens of Scotland.

Why do the Unionist’s continuously demand evidence of perfection from an Independent Scotland ?

We will be,all we can be,no more no less,truthful,peaceful,responsible and law abiding,yes,but also respectful,fearless,daring and safe,in a modern fast-changing world.

56/59, even by Kezia Dugdales counting that is a majority in Westminster

Wullie

It would a close run thing though, especially if she used Baillie’s abacus

Tory intransigence and abuse of power over Scottish Independence and Scotland’s right to self determination and right to stay in EU will take down the Tory Gov.

Their intransigent corruption in the Tory Gov at Westminster will take it down. Theresa May is more than likely to be gone soon because of the increasing scandalous and shocking behaviour of the Westminster Gov with absolutely no mandate for what they are doing. So out of touch with the average population it is unrepresentative and criminal. They claim they want to help and represent ordinary people. How can they when they don’t know any and talk to them even less in their condescending intransigence.

Anyone who opposes democracy, the rule of Law, the rights of the people will not succeed.Breaks International Law like the Tories/unionists are doing will not survive very long. The reason why the Tories will fail is because they are trying to do the impossible. What they want, not what a majority of the electorate want.

This arguments and struggle will continue until it succeeds and Scotland is Independent in the EU as the majority of the citizens wish. No matter how many unelected Gov politicians or officials try to stop Democracy and Democratic choice. People are not stupid they know when they are being manipulated and abused by corrupt politicians. The will of the people will prevail not the the corrupt politicians and officials who are supposed to represent and comply with the people’s choice. Agreement will be made and reached because that is the only sensible way to go. No one can frustrate the will of the majority of the people forever.

England/Wales will be Independent in the EU. That is what a majority want. There will be travel and trade. No doubt as per usual in everyone’s interest. It is an Island mass.

The majority in Britain 50+ according to Polls (without manipulation?) are in total agreement with that solution. Then the majority will be happier in cooperate with their neighbours and Ireland could eventually be United if that is what the majority of the people want and there is a fair vote.

It is just called economic, social and hidtorical progress. No person can put asunder. A diplomatic agreemebt or a nasty divorce. The way of the world in the interest of co existence and historical agreement. The majority of the people like to help each other in the interest of fairness and equality. The majority of the people like to share and cooperate with each other. It is Westminster undemocratic corrupt unionists without a mandate who get in the way. They try to push people around and impose their will of greed and corruption and not paying their dues. The friend of no one.They will not get away with it. Democracy and freedom of choice and self determination will prevail. Any corrupt lying politician, who stands in the way, will be swept aside.

Thatcher, the (childrens) milk snatcher, said that Scotland have ‘exercised that right by remaining in the union’. So, you could be independent, but choose otherwise. She was saying that Scotland had a right, but note there is no mention of Scotland having the means. She, snatcher, knew that Scotland more than had the means, she would never have said so.

She would have had a very good idea of Scotland’s economic worth and future economic potential. She would have the same attitude as Tereza has now.

Everyone has the right to shelter, and food but many do not have the means. The unionists have made sure than many in Scotland do not and if they have anything to do with it, will never have the means for a better, more prosperous life.

Jack Collaton@1.01pm

I couldn’t have said it better. Scotland has a right to be very angry. Let’s hope that they show it at the ballot box in May. Labour are a disgrace, wolves in sheeps clothing for a long time. People can see that now. Out with them in May, lying troughers are no longer welcome in Scotland.

Regardless of whether those Tory PMs would take a different view now, I’d still welcome one of our MPs reading out these quotes in full (with the actual sources given) in order to get them (re-written?) into Hansard, preferably at PMQs, and similarly an MSP doing the same in Holyrood.

In the hierarchy of issues/values in the debate with Unionists, the one of prime importance is not EU membership or NATO membership or education policy or economic policy etc. but, in Thatcher’s words, our “undoubted right to self-determination” – a “right” that given a host of circumstances that have been developing over many years, there is now an urgent NEED to exercise.

It will be important to frame the debate – the case-making – around explaining and justifying to the unconvinced this ‘need’. Yes we need credible answers to things like currency, but if there is no wider acceptance in the population of this need-based case then we may (simply) re-play 2014.

Oops,

Tory ERM farce interest rates were hitting 20%, now 0%.

Toryboy’s Nigel Lawson, John Major, Norman Lamont ERM interest rates at 15%, all treated like sage and brilliant experts today, on every thing, when they should be tarred and feathered. Before Crash Gordo was even considering becoming the saviour of the world too.

… deep breath, steel yourself sensible old boy, here we go…..

I see no contradiction between the words quoted in the article – and the situation we find ourselves in today.

If Scotland want Independence – then it should have it.

Scotland was asked relatively recently, they didn’t want it.

There is no evidence to suggest they want it anymore now than they did then.

If there is evidence that Scotland does want another indyref then it should have one.

I may be wrong, but I am not aware that Ms Sturgeon has actually said she wants another referendum?

Then, if it is determined that there is evidence that the people of SCotland want a referendum and Ms Sturgeon says she actually wants a referendum then one should be arranged – for after the time when the rest of the UK has dealt with its most important issue for a lifetime.

a clear unambiguous statement from previous tory prime ministers .
I see a few comments that seek to add their own interpretation to something thats there for all here to read , I dont require any help or reading lessons thank you very much.

Effijy

Re pensions – our politicians dont give a monkeys as they have an extremely lucrative pension that we the ordinary tax payer are supporting and can never emulate. Labour ruined the pensions for everybody when they “borrowed” the pension monies to support their policies. In any other way of life that is tantamount to embezzlement.

I don’t have a Twitter account, but I read it and have just seen this:

link to twitter.com

I’ll assume it’s haste/incompetence rather than deliberate (aren’t I nice?).

Could someone who does tweet please send the BBC a message that if they are going to use quotation marks, what’s inside them needs to be correct?

Shock and sadness, not shock at sadness.

I suppose the word which explains what is happening in Scotland is TREND.

Fifty years ago the SNP would have been happy to have had the one representative in Parliament and a few on local councils. The trend to vote for SNP is ever upwards, so much so that today there are over 50 SNP members in Parliament.

Remember them Dave. Elected by the Scottish people to represent them in Parliament ? Despite the voting system at Hollywood they have a larger number of seats than Tories and Labour put together. Again because the Scottish people voted for them.

Now call me old fashioned but such clarity of choice indicates the Scottish people have invested faith in the SNP to govern in the interests of our country.

Councils will probably be next.

Despite this we have a poster from England asking what is the evidence the Scottish public have empowered the SNP to make such a decision on their behalf.

Damned if I know eh ?

O/T

It has been announced today that the already obscenely high Parking Charges at The RIE are to be substantially increased.

Is it not a fact that normally governments can borrow money at cheaper rates than commercial enterprises?

Is it not also unlikely that the organisations who hit the jackpot allowing them to rip off the taxpayers which is known as PFI just went into their metaphorical back pockets to set up their PFI Schemes? If that is the case they must have had to borrow the money and if what I say above is the case they will be paying higher interest rates than the government would if they were borrowing said money.

Over and above that to make it worthwhile they have to add to the interest they are paying a handsome profit for themselves.

If what I say above is true it follows that it must be glaringly obvious that it would be greatly to the taxpayers’ benefit if the government were to compulsorily buy out the PFI Contracts at a price both favourable to the government and not leaving the PFI Owners out of pocket (and I don’t include future profits in that sum).

It was done with The Skye Bridge and all it would need would be for WM to give The Scottish Government the necessary borrowing powers and if that was refused wait until we win Indyref2 and enact the necessary legislation to borrow the money.

It would no doubt be argued by opponents that it would create a substantial Scottish National Debt but if that proved a political obstacle the answer would be to pay to the lenders the sum currently paid to The PFI Holders which would mean that along with paying the reduced amount of interest a substantial capital paymment would be made each year to reduce the amount borrowed. In that case the buy-out scheme would be financially neutral initially but like with a mortgage as capital repayments were made the interest part would be reduced just like with a mortgage.

If I am right surely it is blindingly obvious that this is the way to go and Consort could stick their parking charges at RIE where the sun doesn’t shine.

If there are holes in my argument please point them out and accept my apologies.

Re;Robert Graham@2.12

However, the ‘previous’ tory minister is dead. What that dreadful snatcher said hardly stands in law does it. So some are trying to make sense, if any can be gained, of this ‘statement’, as in what it represents in the present.

If you don’t like the comments, why read them at all? Why comment on why the comments are not relevant or welcome to you? Strange, but we are all pretty much singing from the same hymn sheet, except for the odd yoon trying to distract, and debunk the truth, they don’t like the truth very much.

I

Not only have the times changed. The percentages have also changed. The smell of fear is noxious at times.

@sensibledave
You do know that if it wasn’t for the terrorist attack yesterday the vote would have been taken in Holyrood to ask for the Section 30 legislation? And that that will take place on Tuesday now, and it’ll be a vote in favour, SNP + Greens having a majority?

Gus 1940 re un route my understanding is that the Scotland act of 1999 put the requirement of a section 30 order into law, if you try to get round this it could result in years of delay. So yeah U can go down the UN route but it might take a while

Of course, Yoon democracy in Holyrood is entirely different. Every single Slab minority Government from 1997-2007 was entirely legitimate.

Funny old world, innit!

If we don’t get out now, their Great Reform Bill is going to annihilate Holyrood completely, sorry, The Great Reform Bill is going to strengthen this precious precious so very wery precious union.

And beeb gimps will make sure we like it.

@sensibledave

How does this part of Thatcher’s statement

‘no English party or politician would stand in their way’,

square with the ‘Vow’ intervention before 2014 Indyref.

It is a contradiction alright.

Not that Thatcher or Major would actually have honoured that pledge either.

Getting back to that interesting extract that Stu quotes, Thatcher’s view that Scotland had a right to secede but not to demand devolution was ultimately rendered politically unsustainable by evolving events that clearly showed that without meaningful devolution, Scotland would inevitably secede sooner or later.

Labour’s subsequent recognition of that reality was what brought devolution, not any high principle that it was the correct thing to do, constitutionally speaking. Indeed they are now so wedded to that pragmatic view that they have become the drowning man, clutching at the straw which is a UK-wide constitutional reform that is never going to happen. It is the very reality of that UK constitutional impasse and Labour’s obdurate failure to recognise it which is bringing about their own destruction.

Oddly, I believe that John Major, of all people, did realise the constitutional right of secession most honestly. Brought about in large part not because of Scotland, but because of the Irish Question that he had to grapple with intensely. I believe he has never received due recognition for convincing the republican side that the UK, under his watch at least, no longer had neo-imperial pretensions to NI at least.

Which all begs the question of where the Tories (and their Labour and LibDem hangers-on) have been more recently. They were all for having a referendum to settle the issue when they were full of confidence that they would easily win it, and thereby put away the issue for a long time. (Remember Labour’s transient leaderene, Wendy, saying “Bring it on”. Only to be promptly removed on the orders of – guess who? – El Gordo, the political coward who never could decide anything serious until it was all too late.)

The Unionists might even have succeeded in that aim after a rather scary (for them) win, if they hadn’t blown it by their utterly careless and dishonest reaction afterwards. Very many yes-voters (including yours truly) put a lot of effort into making genuine and sensible proposals for a way forward within the Union commensurate with the latter-day assurances of significant devolution that were offered by the “no” side in order to win. (Whether in fact it had any effect or not.) Only to be trashed by a cynical exercise of least-common denominator backroom bargaining operated by a cartel of the Unionist parties.

It was the Unionists’ utter betrayal then, but especially that of the ruling Tories, which damaged the result irretrievably. It is the height of hypocrisy for them now to be demanding of the losing side in 2014 that it “respect the result” when they manifestly trashed the result themselves, and directly brought about the upsurge in the “yes” side thereafter. And that’s without the EUref result a couple of years later, which has now made the situation constitutionally untenable.

Now the Unionists are no longer keen on “bringing it on”, and instead are now desperately trying to maintain there is no need or right. While everyone and their blind-&-deaf uncle can see their self-serving motivation. Principle has been thrown to the wind, and they are now cynically attempting to re-write constitutional history, using a poll result or two as a meagre fig leaf to cover their shameful embarrassment.

In vain.

The Unionists have been falsely claiming that the majority of Scots do not want a referendum and therefore no referendum should take place. How do they square this with polling results prior to the Brexit vote that showed a genuine clear majority of people in favour of remain who presumably did not therefore want a referendum. Surely, applying the same logic, the Brexit referendum should never have taken place.

Sensibledave oozes the haughty superiority of a Brit elitist, in the guise of a ‘reasonable man’ delivering a measured rebuttal of Thatcher’s self determination statement.
Since 2014, we have returned 56 out of 59 MP’s to Westminster on an Independence ticket, we have returned a Pro Self Determination party to Holyrood for a record third term, we have voted 62% to 38% Remain in the EU, yet a man whom we roundly rejected in my constituency appears on BBC in a cynically weighted Unionist ‘debate’ is given free rein to dictate to me what I as a Scot can and can’t have from an English unelected Prime Minister.
Sensibledave refuses to accept that Scotland is a nation. With an inferred smirk he cedes that if Scotland wants Independence all they need do is vote for it.
Yet he refuses to acknowledge the seismic shift of the past 2 1/2 years since Indyref 1.
We must dance through his Unionist hoops; we must provide him with detailed answers to everything, but not question May’s cliff edge Brexit? He expects me to justify my existence to him?
I don’t think so.
He is a proud Brit.That’s how he got where he is, ape you bosses’ views on the world and you’ll climb the greasy pole.
Well, I for one feel not the slightest compunction to justify myself to a dyed in the wool Unionist.
He has the full weight of the Brit Establishment behind him, from our pernicious Foreign Owned MSM, the Belted Land Owning Earls, the Finance houses, the ‘Professions’ in Law Accountancy Insurance Industry Farming Fisheries Agriculture and Trade, the Established Religions, the Armed Forces and of course the Rich.
We, the people, are suppressed by an Oligarchy which is steeped in Unionism, and like Sensibledave, sees itself as a bulwark against the People of Scotland, the Lumpen Proletariat, and will do or say anything to keep us in our place. The Status Quo will be maintained at all costs.
Sensibledave was brought up as a True Blue Brit, groomed to be a leader, as long as he toed the line.
There are many Pro Independence supporters who are accountants, lawyers, insurance brokers, bankers, middle management civil servants. But they better keep their views to themselves if they want to ‘get on’ in their walk of life.
The Scottish Branch of the Brit Establishment, by the hierarchical nature of elitism are few in number but ‘control’ the Scottish colony.
1% of Scots own as much as the bottom 50%. 260,000 of our children, in a population of 5.4 million live in an English dominated Parliament Brit State engineered poverty.
I believe that it was in Mark’s gospel that Jesus, who was being anointed with expensive oil by a woman, was challenged by some of his disciples for wasting oil that could be sold and the proceeds given to the poor.
It is reported that Christ was foreseeing his imminent death, when he said that he would not always be with them, but that the poor would always be there.
Sensibledave and that clique, that elite, that hierarchical top layer, have twisted this to suit their own end. ‘The poor will always be with us’, as long as the State transfers the wealth of the nation to the few at the top. An obscene interpretation of Jesus’ words.
The game has been rigged in favour of the rich and powerful for 300 years now, and sensibledave sees nothing wrong with that,and the occupied colony system held in check by willing locals, while Scotland’s citizens suffer, and our EU friends who have done us the great honour to come and live and work here, are thrown out of Scotland because an English Cabal of arch right wing Imperialists say so.
We’ve had enough, sensibledave. I won’t be corresponding with an anonymous shit stirrer.
What will you do when Scotland falls and Empire 2 is Engwaland and Gibraltar?

Desperate Davey

“There is no evidence to suggest they want it anymore now than they did then.”

That’s what referendums are for they determine what people want at any given time and place.

Awful stuff, as a divert back to 1979:D

All these guys do is fart out same ol same ol Scotland the what meh, for decades. Easy money I guess. What’s “an existential nationalist like Alex Salmond” anyway?

Doesn’t matter.

link to iainmacwhirter.wordpress.com

Scotland, only land in the west that struck vast oil and gas reserves in the 60’s and is now bankrupt, allegedly, and hopefully, in yoon world.

OT
Another article by Tom Gordon in the Herald attacking Cunningham without also saying Rummbles had the same opinion – which he stated on ITN – that Holyrood shouldn’t have given in to terrorism. Plus of course the “witnesses” who heard her say something about the indy ref.

That story was in the Express once, closed to comments which is actually sensible of it (my guess it was open and they had to delete the lot). But the Herald carries the smear story twice.

I suspect Gordon will be moving to the Express where he rightly belongs – or there’s an opening at Dover House. Can’t come soon enough for me, though for those who’d like to see the Herald fail (not me), the longer he stays there the more he’ll destroy it – including for reasonable NOes.

What’s even more sickening is that you could see Gordon coming down the stairs in the background of the BBC Scotland news. He sat in the chamber listening to all 5 party leaders giving decent speeches about the atrocity, in total agreement with each other as a rare event, and then came back and wrote his venom instead of covering that concensus. Words fail me.

We can all talk about the so called United Kingdom till the cows come home, there has never been a United Kingdom, apart from inside the head of westminster spinners and liar
They even have the cheek to tell scotland that we don’t want another referendum, its funny, nobody ever comes and asks me or my friends about this, do you have to be a don’t know, not to sure, or a member of the Labour, Tory, or Liberal branches of westminster to be part of these polls, i get stopped in the street now and again for surveys, half the lies i tell to those people are not true, poor souls, it makes their day worthwhile if you stop and answer their questions, get me on one of their polls and it would say, one person gave some unusual answers, when asked if he thinks scotland should be independent, he wrote, don’t be so bloody nosey and mind your own business lol

O/T

Good to hear the BBC radio news broadcasting our parliaments political leader with sound words on Scotland’s thoughts of the fatal street attacks at Westminster, London.
Ruth Harrison said ….WTF ???

Predictable to end the BBC in full on Britannia mode as usual.
Didn’t even follow it up with the FM’s words at all listen to 4pm news.

Ohhh how they wish she was in control.

yesindyref2 3:11 pm

You wrote “You do know that if it wasn’t for the terrorist attack yesterday the vote would have been taken in Holyrood to ask for the Section 30 legislation? And that that will take place on Tuesday now, and it’ll be a vote in favour, SNP + Greens having a majority?”

Yes I do.

I repeat, show me where Ms Sturgeon says she wants to hold a referendum.

Completly OT

Scene–London Club–persona Eton educated Government Minister
and M15 Spook–time-earlier this week

GM I say old chap I have come up with a marvellous wheez–Spook-
tell all old man I am all ears–GM lets dish this IRA chappie
who has just died, along with his fellow travellers in the SNP–Spook good lets have it– GM If you drop a few hints to your poodles in the media that Martin was one of yours and was called in to sort out the SNP scumballs for us we then have both lots in deep poo, and by the by if you get your tweedy chappy up there to publish an article in the local rag playing the secretarian card we can sow enough seeds to dish any hope of a yes vote in the referendum they keep calling for.–Spook say no more old chap, consider it done.

Gordoz

Years ago I was at luncheon with a old tory “kingmaker”;

Poor old Ruth was supposed to be a stop gap, young blood, friendly face chap. A filler if you will.
Trouble was they couldnt get anyone to replace her that wasn’t clinically insane.

So Ruth Harrison was left in peace.

Fine words but completely destroyed of any real meaning by their actions in hiding the McCrone Report. Hypocrite seems too pleasant a word to use for such on-going deceit and treachery. Forget their words, it’s their actions that count.

And since oil is still being bandied around as ‘proof’ that Scotland now can’t afford independence since the oil price is so low compared with a few years ago (when conveniently independence would actually have been ok?), the missing bit here seems to be how much oil and gas may remain to be found in around Scotland? The UK is strangely silent on that one, which seems very reminiscent of McCrone.

Oil and gas are not the be all and end all of Scotland’s economy, but since it keeps getting brought up by the ‘better together’ lot in a very limited way (ie current oil price and only North Sea oil), a look at what reserves may well exist would provide a much more complete view of oil & gas to Scotland and of course to the UK. It would certainly explain why the UK stays so quiet about likely future reserves.

This from 2014 –

link to oilandgaspeople.com

This from yesterday – (use an adblocker if you’re concerned about helping fund the Herald via advertising revenue)

link to heraldscotland.com

The spirit of McCrone seems to be alive and well in Westminster.

I’m genuinely shocked at the McWhirter article link. He’s back to peddling the same old Unionist lies about Scotland’s dependence on oil.

Despite admitting we were swindled out of the bulk of it. The sad thing about the last decade is witnessing the willingness of turncoat ‘commentators’ like him scrabbling one way or the other like rats in shite desperately trying to evade a shovel aimed at their verminous skulls.

One day soon these scabrous swine will be condemned to shameful ignominy and professional obscurity when we finally cast the whole fucking miserable shower of arselickers out into the dark universe of May’s fantasy of ‘global Britain along with their stinking ‘Union’.

Sensibledave was fishing down a manhole,a cybernat walked by and and stopped to ask him if he had caught anything.Sensibledave looked up with a twinkle in his eye and said “yes your the ninth”

ffs guys why waste your time with the thing?From a personal point of view I get great pleasure of skipping buy all his posts and those that find themselves caught on his devious wee hook.

Lang time lurker btw.

Do we have any polls coming out over the weekend?

(ex?) Liberals, Tories, and Labour supporters vote YES and support another Referendum. It would not be at all surprising that the unionist inadequate ‘politicians’ in Holyrood in the secrecy of the Ballot Box vote YES. The delusional hypocrites.

Members of the unionist political parties support YES. Even unionist Councillers – Office bearers support YES and want another Referendum. The Unionists are chapping, crapping themselves. That is why all the lying is starting up again. Many now see the unfairness. The majority have voted for it. The lying propaganda which the majority now do not believe. Many now see the unfairness. The frantic, manic mania starting up again. They know they are fighting a losing battle and they are going to lose big time.The Demographics has changed. Many now see the unfairness. Brexit changed it big time.

The Tories have excelled themselves in bad, wrong decision again. Westminster is now an incoherent clumsy bunch of unionists ‘psycho bastards’, There own description of themselves. The future economy is now totally on a spiral down and they know it.

This attack will also change things. Give them something to mull over and think about. Truly shocking. Despite the rhetoric. London Centre is now classed as an unsafe place to be. Mental health problems are increasing in the UK and services are being cut. Inadequate services are provided for the increasing demand. The illegal wars, banking fraud/crash and continued tax evasion have traumatised the world.

This is just for Mr no friends troll

Independence means Independence and we’re going to make a success of it!

Goose/Gander?

How the times do change, and they are certainly changing now. Ask the elderly – they’re the people who know all about. They are the ‘do you remember when’ generation. I am one of them – well, nearly.
I don’t remember Mgt Thatcher saying the above, but I do remember her, better than I remember Ted Heath, and much better than I remember Harold McMillan.

Politics was of little interest to working people back then, unless you were a union rep and/or a communist. Back then, Labour voters hadn’t yet twigged that voting Labour was voting for the Union and for the Ruling class. Times have changed alright, but the kind of people who had a seat on the Gravy Train back then, they haven’t changed much.

In the years since Thatcher(1979), TV and the Press have become very very important to political parties. And with that, media barons became very powerful. It is reckoned that Rupert Murdoch has played a major role in the election of every British Prime minister for the last forty years. Is it any surprise he was one of Theresa May’s first port of call in September 2016 in New York.

The Union owes its continuance to the unopposed State Propaganda in the UK and to the part it plays in brainwashing large numbers of Britain’s electorate. In this, the BBC plays the dominant role. Truly successful propaganda leaves the population in complete denial of their brainwashed condition.

yedindyref2 – how uncricket of you to quote facts at Sensible! I’m astonished at your honesty – that is not the British way!

Mcwhirter writes anything to sell. Makes an extravagant living at it. The piper plays the tune. No conviction. It’s quite sad really. That people have no conviction in their own ability.

Ken500 – agree with you about McWhirter blowing in the wind. Pity! I like his writing but he’s not a patch on the much missed Ian Bell.

Thepnr @ 17:57,

If you think about it, the Tories have been gambling quite recklessly with the whole UK’s future for quite some time now.

Cameron thought he had a sure thing with indyref1, then got quite a bad scare towards the end of the campaign. His relief afterwards was palpable.

Then he launched into the EUref, with all the dire consequences a loss would imply, but thinking he would win that one too by using the same vile tactics. But that bet came unstuck.

Now his successor is gambling for even higher stakes. As others have already pointed out, expectations of the outcome of the deal with the EU27 are being ratcheted again and again by her regime towards a harder, bleaker outcome. She has sown the wind, and we will reap the whirlwind.

And now in the midst of all that existing recklessness she adds a gamble on winning a constitutional standoff with Scotland?

Does she feel lucky? Seems more like desperation to me, gambling addictively for higher and higher stakes hoping for that elusive eventual win.

Jack Collatin, you gave me goosebumps.

Ken500 @ 18:14:

Many people can’t stand the way they [the Greens] carry on

No, it’s just your own personal obsession. =yawn=

The yes campaign has to be as wide as possible to gain the most traction. That’s so staringly obvious it shouldn’t even need to be mentioned. Wanting to turn it into the narrow hegemony of one political party, as you seem to believe, is merely to validate the “one party state” calumny and invite another loss.

We need everyone who is willing aboard, period. Everyone.

Seriously, give it (and us) a break, FGS.

LOL is that the script you have been handed Dave,it is not very innovative where is the jam and the shiny beads.

Listen up Scotland oor Dave and his pals from down south think we should wait until they fix their problems before we fix ours.

So would that be in the time frame of next century Dave since it has taken your PM 9 months to sign a bit of paper you muppets seem desperate to get signed and voted for,either i have seen sloths move quicker or your PM really really does not want to sign it.

Ah remember the days Dave when we were told by your pals down south that independence meant no EU no chance in hell, veto doom gloom and disaster black hole be like Greece with invading ET`s the only way to stay in the EU is to vote no.

Oh and you cant get the pound and the oil is running out anyway.

Should have let us go in 2014 made a song and dance about it in full British pageantry like only you mad Englishmen can do and become the good guys stole our thunder in one last fuck you Scotland and you know what for our old pals we would have let you.

I bet that big seat in the UN would have looked even bigger with a Nobel peace prize winner sitting in it for England.

You try and do an old pal a favour and he tells you to feck off,well see ya old pal.

Seriously, why do you folks on here willingly ALLOW trolls to divert the discussion, by feeding them. Come on folks, we have a fight to win, so ‘playing games’ with moronic unionist trolls is just plain old vanilla stupid.

Just ignore them and they go away, but no, some folks on here, think they MUST ‘tackle’ the trolls, to the detriment of the discussion. Wise up FFS, these paid unionist trolls are NOT here to be educated, they are here simply to disrupt the discussion and distract any readers. It is their job.

People all over the www have got that sussed, it just seems people on here who don’t get it.

Thepnr,

“What then?

No idea to be honest but I’m sure the Scottish government do have a plan.”

Don’t know about the Scottish government, but Robert Peffers does has a plan from his armchair:

Robert Peffers,

“All we need do is to go ahead and do what we wish and let them attempt to stop or prevent our exercise of what, under Scots law, is our legal sovereignty and let them take legal action.”

Good luck with that.

Ken500,

“If the Greens voted against.”

Could Westminster be able to convince them, after yesterday’s attack against the mother of parliaments, that “Now is not the time”?

What has been the “independence supporting” The National’s reaction to the attack and the suspension of the referendum debate?

I prefer the openly biased unionist media to false friends like McWhirter. He appears balanced to draw in readers then switches to the “….proud Scot but” routine.

His pay cheque conflicts with his whisper for Scotland turning it into a shout for the Uniom.

@Sensibledave,

Err what do you think has been happening at Holyrood for most of Wednesday?

Clue. It is about looking for a referendum.

So Dave, passing the legislation to seek a referendum is now no proof you want a referendum, but wanting a referendum is a referendum bluff hoping you don’t get a referendum.

Davey boy ,you getting cabin fever? You related to Kezia Dug dale perchance?

By what right under law, is any part of the UK outside Scotland, free to interfere in a Scottish referendum. If Mrs May has a legal right to set aside the will of the Scottish people in this matter, then let us see it, in writing.

Telt ye…weak petty minded obsfucating nobody, wee boy mentality mama may suckler on the teat of policies designed tae ravage his fellow humans…he’s got nuthin’ of any value tae contribute, we aw know it and his last wee pathetic quip showed it in spades.

Whilst ah completely agree he’s no worth the bother, on some days it good tae hone yer skills out debating Davey boy types…he’s just a pencil sharpener when it come right down tae it. His blade is blunt right enough, nonethess if ye press in a little deeper ye can get yer nib fairly pointed, enough tae write him aff the thread altogether. Job done.

Robert Louis 6:38,

I agree, RL. I’ve been guilty of it in a small way myself, and duly stand admonished. Stu’s article is great stuff and highly relevant for the “virtual coup” that the Unionists are attempting to perpetrate upon us now, if we let them. Let’s stick to that and not get diverted by self-important trolls’ trivial personal agendas.

Jeez, the referenced article tells us that once again Scotland’s a player on the international scene, not anyone’s pawn.

Due to Nicola & Co.’s efforts. Let’s celebrate that, and not let the chance slip away this time.

I note that still no one has produced a quote wher ms sturgeon is demanding a referendum.

Sensible its going through Holyrood now, vote next Tues, wait til the biggies work out hard Brexit, away we go, is what I heard sensible.

What channels are you tuned into?

Ken500 – I placed a large bet on Yes at 6/1 late on in 2013. Gave me added incentive to do all I could. Knew it would either be the best day of my life by a mile or the opposite.

heedtracker,

I take it that you and the likes of you have not been impressed by the “independence supporting” The National’s reaction to the attack and the suspension of the referendum debate?

Has it joined in on the attacks against SNP MSP Cunningham?

Or has it supported her like any decent “independence supporting” paper would?

If it is shamed into supporting her tomorrow, I will claim the credit.

@Sensibledave “Sorry . Not good enough. Show me where MS Sturgeon is demanding a referendum.”

Do your own homework son, I kindly gave you the link for the SNP website which has all you need for your project.

Good grief, it’s the Chuckle Brothers!

Heedtracker re Mc Whirter, did u seen him getting interviewed by toodlethenoo after the FM announced a new Indy ref, going on about how Salmond had lied about oil revenues when in fact the White Paper estimated less revenues than some UK Government Depts and then ” and he also promised a renewables boom which has never materialised” what a tube how the f:)&k can Mr Salmond be critisised for something not happening which he has no control over.

‘So we have to try and guess what they are both up to’

No ‘we’ don’t. While you’re guessing, for no other reason I presume other than you have no other interests in your own community or in any other aspects of your local politics. Else there is actually no other conceivable reason that you come onto the number one political site on Scotland’s independence as a Tory Englander wi apparently no horse in the race Davey boy?

My insults as you refer to them are actually accurate and totally apt descriptions of your overall character and input on these threads. Treat them as insults if ye like Davey boy. You can’t debate, you are a whinny wee boy wi an over inflated sense of your own relevance on this site. You are a condescending, patronising obsfucating Tory with a clear inability to hold a nuanced debate on any subject at hand. Instead ‘you’ belittle, denigrate and generally conduct yourself in an over bearing and utterly disrespectful manner any time you appear btl driven by a constant emotional neediness writ large by your oft repeated ‘bating’ of others in an attempt to ‘appear’ knowledgeable.

Which, when it comes to the subject of Scotland and it’s seeking of self determination you are woefully lacking in any capacity to understand our differing attitudes and outlook from your own polity on this matter.

You merely regurgitate and mimic mainstream BBC and other leading UK newspaper’s ‘take’ and ‘slant’ on just about every conceivable matter when it comes to Scotland’s constitutional debate.

You are nothing more than a wee nobody trying to ‘appear’ as a ‘somebody’ and if your contribution to these threads is anything to go by in terms of your generally pompous and condescending manner I’m almost certain this is reflected in your actual life out with these threads.

We’re fighting for something here Davey boy. It is a principled stance, I would proffer a noble goal. We wish to run our own affairs and come out from beneath the yoke of a country who we are outnumbered by virtue of a system of voting that perpetually leaves us at the mercy of our larger neighbours interests, which are not ours. We have every right to pursue our aims through peaceful and democratic processes and we have achieved much in these past few years. We will achieve our aims.

Your insistent ridiculous ‘where does it say she wants a referendum’ is to be treated with the deserved contempt it elicits. You are a debaser of debate, how could you not be? You are the perfect reflection of that which you have consumed. You merely come onto to Wings to sick up what is stuck in yer craw. Spluttering immature rhetoric written ‘for’ you by others ‘like you’.

K1 @ 8.32
Is that a posh way of sayin yer jist a sweetie wife?

Well…it wis the long winded ‘translation’ of ‘sweetie wife’…he’s no fae these pairts, um nuthin if no mannered Liz 😉

Many of you are of course right. I shall omit Sensible Dave from future reply.

What he needs ideally is an echo chamber where the only replies he will hear are his own. That seems to suit him more than rational discussion.

K1,

Though we really do need to move on now, I did enjoy your righteous condemnation there, especially the “You are a debaser of debate” line. Aaaah. Very satisfying, even if only by proxy. =grin=

also,having a plan which relies on outside intervention by the eu and or the un, or any country, is a non starter, nice if it happens, but we should plan to do this by ourselves

Sad thing is you still see Unionists posting “Sturgeon is bluffing, she doesn’t want a referendum”, you hear political pundits saying it, and even articles. They all know it’s nonsense but it seems to be a group hug thing, they upvote each other, nod their heads knowingly. And that May will force “her” to have it after Brexit.

Somewhere in some newsroom in London there’s some poor sod actually believes it and all the rest of them are laughing their heads off at him or her “so innocent, so naive”.

Sad but true.

My guess is sensibledave is that person.

Wind up Dave

Nicola has not demanded a referendum but she is taking all the correct steps to make one happen.
The ticky tacky points you are trying to make were covered in previous threads so please try and keep up

I love the posts on this site . informative,articulate,amusing. But i always scroll past what’s his name???? Oh yoonatic dave.

@Bob Mack
At 2.17 pm

“Dave, you want respect but give none. I read your posts sometimes and what shines through is arrogance. Your posts are a microcosm of what we see in Parliament every day . That is why we want to leave.”

Well said Bob.

I don’t read sensibledave’s comments anymore.

His arrogance is that he is right and everyone else here is wrong. It is the same arrogance that has led to Brexit view that England is better than everyone else in Europe and they can go and build a second Empire.

That arrogance is going to be very sorely exposed over the next two years when England finds out it has very few friends left in Europe and across the world.

When the Brexit experiment fails that is when we will have our independence vote. Either before or after Brexit – it does not matter to me as it will be a total disaster either way.

Then we will win our Independence and become a sovereign country again.

A normal North European country openly welcomed in Europe and taking its proper place in the World.

Bad politics, bad economics – a useful summing up of the Brexit journey.

‘The oddity of a Brexit Odyssey’

link to worldeconomicsassociation.org

‘…There is, for example, a clear narrative shift from the pre-referendum Treasury Budget Report, March 2016. In the Report, on the basis that EU members are Britain’s most proximate trading partners, and comprise 44% of its exports, membership of the EU was positioned as a powerful force encouraging a more open, cosmopolitan British trading economy. However, the Leave campaign and the post-referendum government have repositioned EU membership as a constraint on a globally progressive open Britain (free to now flourish in a ‘post-geography trading world’). Again, this is odd (and for more than the obvious reason that Britain looks set to create barriers to trade with its nearest neighbours, whilst seeking to develop trade treaties – a notoriously contingent and protracted process – with far flung nations). It is odd because it is an argument ostensibly focused on economics but dominated by other political concerns. The argument from the Right of the Conservatives was dominated by old concerns with the sovereignty implications of the European Commission’s Social Europe agenda of integration, rather than the realities of the Single Market…

Ultimately, British post-referendum policy… creates uncertainty and dislocation for multinationals and influential corporations of all kinds (risking investment projects, affecting profits via currency instability, threatening inflationary pressures on costs that affect pricing, and creating the need for decisions firms would rather avoid). Brexit is a short-term headache for ‘capital’ and a long-term threat to some fractions within it. It seems like a defeat, a defeat articulated and orchestrated by a Right wing party that nominally represents ‘capital’. Again, this is odd. It is less odd when one considers that the referendum was a response to nationalist populism by a Conservative government aiming to undercut its own (anti-Social Europe) Right wing, as well as the electoral threat it perceived from UKIP. The leadership simply did not believe they could lose. It is also less odd when one considers the campaign was partly bankrolled by a hedge fund billionaire who made millions shorting the markets…

Moreover, these 3 are ultimately answerable to the Treasury and the Chancellor, who must incorporate any new institutional arrangements into Britain’s emerging economic structure. Furthermore, all 3 must come to terms with the Home Secretary, who controls immigration policy (and so is where any special pleading regarding treatment of groups heavily dependent on foreign labour must take place — notably for the finance sector, the health service, and agriculture). The situation is, therefore, already one involving 5 different groupings, each with their own concerns and personnel. The simple mantra that ‘Brexit means Brexit’ is already about as meaningful as any stanza from the Jabberwocky…Brexit ,the interminable journey to nowhere’

Lenny Hartley says:
23 March, 2017 at 8:14 pm
Heedtracker re Mc Whirter, did u seen him getting interviewed by toodlethenoo after the FM announced a new Indy ref,

I did not but its easy to picture them hard at work, scorched earth Scottish democracy, BBC Scotland style. Never watch anything BBC Scotland much at all, since 2014. Its got so barking mad anti everything non tory Scotland, its boring as feck. As is most of the BBC now. You can judge how awful the whole shebang is by the non existent political satire it produces, or BBC’s case, none at all.

Worst attack propaganda on Scottish democracy is always BBC Scotland 6 am radio news, kicking off an endless monstering of everything SNP and Holyrood. But its owned and run by unionist who earn a lot of money and will take yours too, it makes no odds to them, who pays the piper. Money’s money.

Ask all new and exciting Pacific Quay boss Donalda Mac, who said she would win back trust in BBC Scotland, by making the last utterly ferocious unionist boss look like Walter Cronkite. The female of the unionist beeb ligger, is far more deadly than the male.